Feb 10, 2025 Historic Landmark Commission on 2025-02-10 5:30 PM

I have time so I'm going to call the meeting to order at 530 p.m. Thank you guys for being here. If you would please stand with me for the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state, under God, one and indivisible. Thank you guys for that. Yes, alright. Do we have any members of the public to speak? Clearly there's no one here. Okay. See how quick we're going through this? Alright, our next item on the agenda is HLC 25-005. We're going to consider the approval of the January 13th of minutes. Hope you all had a chance to look those over. If so, I would need any corrections or a motion in a second, so for you. And I'll move approval. Thank you. Commissioner McAdams. I'll second. Thank you, Commissioner Tree. All in favor of approval, raise your hand. Okay, motion carries. Thank you. Alright, our next item on the agenda is number COA 825-0001. It is to hold a public meeting and consider an application for a certificate of appropriateness in accordance with section 2.92 of the Denton Development Code to replace exterior windows at 1011 West Oak Street within the Oak Historic District. This site is located on the south side of West Oak Street between North Welch Street and Denton Street. Thank you, Chair. As stated, this is on the south side of West Oak Street between Welch and Denton. The owners are Thomas and Darice Judd. The home was built circa 1929. But it has changed over time, so I did just kind of want to walk you all briefly through the building's history. As you see here, this is pre-circa 1949. There has been alterations that were done after 1949, and that's what the property looks like today. So it is to the replacement of 25 windows, all on the building's exterior around that entire perimeter. Here are some of the current conditions of those windows. They are all currently protected by aging storm windows. There is air leakage bringing in dust and some increased road noise. As you can see there, some gapping. A lot of the windows, or all the windows have been painted or cocked shut. They've been like that for over 40-plus years. So just wanted to highlight some of those in the photos. And we also have, some of the windows have broken weights, so they're not operable as well. So the design materials, they are proposed to be single-pane bronze double-hung windows made of ultracross construction. So you can see the proposed window design over there on the right-hand side. So there is an exterior visualization drawing, but it's that bronze color which is currently on the exterior of the property. So as provided in your backup packet, staffs analysis did look at the Secretary and Interior Standards for Rehabilitation, focusing on those five items there that are highlighted in red. And as part of that, the standards and kind of staffs analysis, I wanted to show some examples of other windows along West Oak Street that also have those double-hung windows that are single-pane, that are made of both wood, aluminum, and vinyl that are currently existing. Staffs analysis also looked at the Oak Hickory Historic District Architectural Designs, specifically focusing on architectural detail as well as windows and doors and broke it down into glass, style, size, frames, and more. So staff is recommending approval as submitted for the Certificate of Appropriateness for the 25 main resident windows, not at OKA Street, I apologize about that, but West Oak Street, as it does meet our Secretary and Interior Standards for Rehabilitation, as well as that section of the Debt and Development Code. And I can stand for any questions. And we do have the applicants here, if you do have any questions for them as well. Ms. Ritchie, do you have any questions? Do they have anything they want to say to us about this one project? I don't mind saying a couple of words, try to be brief. So Darice and I have lived there for about 41 years, and this is something, among other things, that we've kind of been thinking about doing for a long time. The windows have, we didn't clock and paint them shut, they've been that way ever since we've lived there. I think we have three windows that actually function. And so we just feel in the spirit of trying to keep the Oak Hickory District nice. This would be an upgrade, not only for us, but for future property owners. They will be double-painted, the new ones, which I think you might have said, but right now they're presently single-painted, so they're very thin, virtually no insulated value. So that's why the storm windows were installed probably back around the beginning of the historic district, I think it was in the early 80s. And anyway, we've kind of enjoyed living there, we want to stay there, we want to make some improvements to the home, and this is one that we think will be a nice upgrade. And not an inexpensive one, we're going with high-quality windows. So anyway, that's all. Any questions? Well, we can't help you with that part. If you could go back to that one right there, where you have all the different kinds. So we have wooden, we have vinyl, we have aluminum, and now this is going to be fiberglass. Am I correct? So can you speak to value as far as historic and keeping integrity of structures with all the different kinds that we have, and yet now we're adding another one, fiberglass, into that? Of course. So the National Park Service has started to move away from necessarily wooden windows due to the fact that people are running into economic issues, pricing of different construction materials, it's getting really expensive. So the National Park Service, when it comes to the Secretary of Interior standards, is being a little bit more lenient. What they're mostly concerned about and what staff is doing their analysis on is making sure that style and that outward appearance remains the same moving forward as to not only help with the longevity, but also kind of keep the architectural style intact. I know that they are, but I'm just wondering, here's where I struggle. And that is, for this commission, that is our job, to keep the integrity of structures for historic purposes. And I struggle with all the different types, and not that this commission has a standard on windows at all. And yet now we're throwing in fiberglass into all these others. I understand the need for new windows, and the pictures that you have of their home looks just like mine. I have the single glass, and I totally understand that. I just struggle with adding a different type to this, because none of these are fiberglass. But they all look the same. Do they not? I mean, is that sort of what it's based on? I mean, we have a drawing. Well, I don't think those are drawing. I think they're photographs. No, from theirs. Oh, fiberglass is what I was going through. So we don't really have a prototype of what it's going to look, but not from a room. To me, that doesn't look the same. You have an exterior look versus it looks like an interior look there. So that's hard for me to picture. I'm not saying no, I'm just saying this is where I struggle with throwing in a different, because I don't think that we have a standard here. And that's my struggle with that. And the other question I have with some of these, that the vinyl and the aluminum there, were those approved? Did those have COAs? And the reason I ask is we've had people that have replaced windows, and then they come, and so I appreciate them coming for a COA beforehand. We have them come, they've done it, and then they want us to bless it with that. And I struggle with that. That's the only thing. And here's the reason why, behind all of it, after all of this and that huge investment that they're going to make, they can come back and ask for the tax relief from there, which they have every right to do. But when we are answering to city council, what are we going to say our parameters are around? Well, I think we have to recognize the changes that are taking place in materials and availability. There will come a time when we will simply not be able to get anything that resembles what was there to begin with. Or it had to be something custom. I mean, because on the other side of the new materials and things, I think there's a lot of new exciting stuff that's being done with polymers. And as was mentioned, and as you mentioned, wisely, right, the whole double pane, like who would even make that kind of specification anymore? So that's one thing I'd be curious if the homeowners would be willing to share a little of their research. I think it would be cool to create like a catalog or something of like, here's some things that have been done before and what they look like, right? Because to me, appearance-wise, it looks pretty consistent, but I understand that the chair's concerns about, you know, trying to maintain some clarity in terms of expectations. Well, we've gone through the years that I've been here that, and we've had presentations on what keeps a structure in a historic realm are keeping them wooden, keeping the windows wooden. And we have found that is very pricey. I mean, like if it's like, okay, no one would do that. And so we kind of bend it a little bit. And again, we have vinyl and aluminum, but I'm going to ask, do we have anywhere else on this that has fiberglass anywhere? That's the only question. So I did grab the window specs from the applicant and that's being passed around, which talks a little bit more, but fiberglass is considered to be better than vinyl at this point. And what do you mean better? In terms of expansion, it won't expand. So when it gets heated, when vinyl gets heated, so when it gets heated, it'll expand. If it gets cold, it will condense. So it doesn't have as much of an expansion, which means it won't damage the brick. So that's the thing. As these materials come out, we're learning new science, we're learning new facts. So you'll see that in the backup packet. But so more windows are starting to look into fiberglass materials. And I think too, my other concern, not concern, but my thought was in the COA, it was marked like kind. And to me, it's not like kind. It's totally different. Like kind would be wooden with double pane instead of a single pane. To me, that's a like kind. But when you go from wooden to whatever else it is, it's not like kind. It's different. It's new. It's something totally different. That was the only other concern. I guess I have a question about, and I'm still learning, so I have to ask lots of questions, but. That's what we're here for. Angie, you say, do we have a need for parameters for our standards? Right. I'm assuming since Courtney, you started out saying this is compliant with Secretary of Interior, etc. I guess I would have assumed hearing that that that's what we use, that those are the standards that we use. Is that the case? Yes, that's correct. We use the Secretary of Interior standards along due to the fact that this is an historic district. We also use those parameters as well. The Secretary of Interior standards. You all for the training that we had, we always look to do preservation first. Also, we take into the economics of it. We take into the material. Also, we work with the property owner and we can't force someone to do preservation to an extent. And so then we look at the best next thing, which is rehabilitation. So that's why this was reviewed under rehabilitation. Well, and that's what I was having just heard that 10 days ago. Do we need our own standards? Are we going by that? That's kind of what I understood from the training that that's what we based it on. So, and I guess rehabilitation is different. So if this was rehabilitation, then that's different. Maybe the standards would be different. So that's, I guess, Angie, is my question. Is that something we need? Because I don't understand why. On this commission, it's been debated a lot. And we didn't come up with, hey, these are what we're going to adopt, which is the Secretary of State, and we kind of relied on that. My whole thing with that is if we're going to say, yeah, we're going to go with Secretary of Standards, that I'm okay. They need new windows. That's a given. And what they put around it, we don't have a picture of a house with the fiberglass. Does that make sense? I can see vinyl. I can see aluminum. I can't see fiberglass. I see wooden. But do we have anywhere on there that already has fiberglass? Or is this the first one for that? This is the first one that I reviewed in the last four years. Okay. But that's not to say that there's not fiberglass that already exists on the West Oak. True. That's honest truth. That's true. And I mean, as we're getting new materials, we, you know, I think we have to look at what those are. The picture that you had of the fiberglass? Yes. Oh, well, the fiberglass photo is in there. What is that? This is the storm windows that currently exist on the outside of the existing windows on the property. And then I was just showing the interior. Okay. So that is the exterior. Yes, this is the exterior. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. Gotcha. So the storm windows are in place. So those are the storm windows that you see there. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. And I understand they're also going to possibly be able to open the windows. Yes. They'll be able to actually open the windows for the first time in 40 plus years. I have the same. Hanging shut for five or many years. Hand open all. Paper thin. And I am going to, are we ready for a motion? Well, I just, I was going to give them a chance to look and see. And then Cameron, anything else you wanted to add? No, I do not have anything else to add. If you all have any questions about the material package with specs right there, I'm sure the applicant would be more than happy to answer any questions that come from that, but I do not have anything else to add. Thank you. I'm going to ask the applicants anything that you wanted to add, maybe that you could help us with on the different types. Sure. Yeah. So we did a lot of research and we interviewed three different companies. Um, we had the options of billing with vinyl, which is the cheapest, um, right off the top. Most historic districts don't allow vinyl. Um, if there's some here, perhaps they got approved or perhaps they were just installed anyway. Fiberglass has been around since the 1940s. It's been used as window frame since then. The fact that there's none in any of the pictures we're seeing is it's not a new material. It's been in use. Fiberglass also, as we found out, is the only material that can be painted. Vinyl windows can't be painted. Aluminum windows can't be painted. So the color that we're going with is going to essentially match the storm windows that are there now. So it won't change the look. It will be a dark contrasting color against the lighter gray and the white brick. Um, the other things are the, um, as Cameron kind of alluded to, the fiberglass is structurally better. Um, wood rots. Um, you can't get currently wood windows like the old wood windows. The current wood windows have aluminum cladding over it. So what you see from the street is aluminum, not wood. Um, aluminum is a little bit cheaper if you will. Um, the hierarchy of windows kind of goes with wood with the aluminum cladding, the fiberglass that we're getting, vinyl, and then there's some other materials that are also used. So we're at the upper end of what you can get. And it looks the most like wood because the fiberglass is impregnated with a texture of wood and it can be painted again, just like the wood windows. And none of the others can. Um, the only currently made wood windows are the ones that have aluminum cladding and that's just to protect the wood from rotting and the aluminum can't be painted. I mean, paint doesn't stick to aluminum. So whatever the color is, it's going to be a more modern look than a historic look unless, I mean, this, I mean, we could have gone with another one. Um, we'd gone with vinyl, it'd save us about $30,000. But, um, we opted to go with something that we thought would look the best and be the most historic like because the option to replace it, like for like, really doesn't exist anymore unless you have them each one custom made. And these, each window is running between $2,000 and $4,000. So 25 windows, it's a big project. Vinyl would have saved us, you know, we could have done $400, $500 vinyl windows. We didn't want to do that, so. It sounds like it's a better option, fiberglass is a better option. It's supposed to be the best that you can get longevity wise. The wood windows are still a little bit more expensive, but then that's because they're a little bit more complicated to make with the metal over them. But the fiberglass windows have been around for a long, long time. Thank you for clearing that up. You're welcome. And the storm windows that are there, what are they made of? Those are aluminum. Those are aluminum? Yes. They were there before the historic commission even existed. Right. And you're not replacing those? We're not going to keep them. No, they will come off because the new windows will be double pane insulated. Oh, so you don't need them at all? Right. But the windows that are behind them right now will look just essentially like that. So the look from the street won't look any different than it has in the last 70 years or 60 years. Do you know when I come with my magnifying glass? You are welcome to come do that. So we all learned a lot there. We did. Thank you. The chances are there are a lot of fiberglass windows that we see all the time and we don't know them. And we don't know them at all. Yeah. And there will be a lot of windows of something else. Council. Years in the future. I move approval of this request. Thank you. All right. All righty. We have a motion in a second. All right. All in favor, raise your hand. Motion carries. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck on your continued work. Thank you. There's always something. Always. That's always true. In some way, thank you. I'll be in touch tomorrow. Okay. And y'all can stick around if you want to. I'm kind of curious about the next one, but I think we're going to have all right. Item 3C, number HLC 25-009. It's to hold a discussion and get staff direction regarding the current historic tax exempt program and potential program changes to better encourage the designation and/or preservation of historic properties. And I really like that we just learned something about the fiberglass. I think it's great. That's why I learned something too. Tell me what you're looking at, what you're thinking is. I don't know, Cameron probably goes through that just a matter of, you know, occupation. It helps me to imagine a little more about, yeah, because they come up with new things all the time. Okay. So I'm going to be presenting from here so we can have a good discussion. Okay. So we're going back in time a little bit. So on July 8th of 2024, staff at that time sought direction for these two questions. We wanted to look at should our design historic science tax exemption program be expanded to include other eligible properties? And then the second question was should there be additional actions that the commission would like to take to encourage property owners to designate and preserve their properties? So we had a large discussion at that time regarding those two questions. And during that, we ended up talking about our 2019 historic preservation plan, specifically looking at our goal number two and our recommendations 2.1 and 2.2. So recommendation, as a reminder, 2.1 was if you all wanted to broaden the tax exemption eligibility criteria, which in this case specifically means including contributing properties. Then you all discussed recommendation 2.2, which was looking to change the current tax exemption program that we currently have for individual locally designated properties. So just wanted to provide a little bit of background. So at that time, staff was directed by the commission to not move forward with recommendation 2.1. There was discussion, but ultimately it was decided that the program should not be expanded to include contributing properties. However, staff was told to move forward with changing our current tax exemption program for individual locally designated properties and directed staff at that time to develop options. So the topic of discussion is before I bring forward options to you all to present, I wanted to confirm these two recommendations. So as I stated, at that meeting, staff was told not to move forward with recommendation 2.1. So that is not expanding the program to include contributing properties. And I wanted to show a visual of our current historic districts. So West Oak Area Historic District, you can see it's outlined there in pink. What staff is being directed to do is only include the two properties out of 78 contributing properties in this historic district. So hold on. So then looking at Belle Avenue Historic District and Oak Hickory Historic District. For Belle Avenue Historic District, there are 29 contributing properties. And based off that direction, we would only be focused on two of those 29. And then looking at Oak Hickory Historic District, we have a total of 60 contributing properties, but we would only be focused on 20 of those. Yes, Chair. Go ahead. Can I restate what I believe you're saying to make sure that I get it? So we're discussing expanding our incentives locally through two different possible avenues, potentially both. Could we expand it in both directions or does it have to be 2.1 or 2.2? They're two separate items. So we could do both. So these are our historic districts that to be considered historic districts, there have to be more than 50% of the properties contributing to that, right? So they've already qualified, the district is there, and we're giving you the direction to not incentivize all of them. Yes, based off the conversation on July 8th, staff was informed to all three of the districts. So we're missing out on 167 contributing properties. Yeah, I don't remember that. I don't either. So here's what I, and my, and again, we're talking, when was that? July? July. Okay, it was hot. So I'm going to be able to like just say, you know what, it was hot. Maybe I missed a few things because I was in here just drinking in the A/C. But one of the things that I recall in my thought process, which I'm looking at this as this is being presented and going and questioning that heat stroke, was that this would be by focusing instead on the designated rather than contributing, we'd be encouraging more people to be doing designated, right? So and, but now I'm really questioning that pretty hard. Because yeah, there's only two. Two and then 20 in the okay great historic district and then two involved. Yeah, okay. Because now I'm flipping around and being like, well, if we get the contributing to participate for this, then maybe they would become. I'm liking their key. Yes. On the Bell Avenue, the green. That's on the bottom. Isn't that the T.W.U. house? No. She's pretty sure. You're pretty sure it is? It's next door to me. It's a T.W.U. house. They don't pay taxes anyway. So I don't think that I don't know. I'll show you. That's my house. That's T.W.U. That's the corner. There's no other houses there. That's the T.W.U. house. Okay. So I don't understand because I don't get that. Well, they're in a different class. Well, I guess. Well, they're designated, but not necessarily having applied for an exemption. Correct. Yes. So these are not properties that are currently receiving the historic tax exemption. These are properties that are just locally designated that could apply. But if it's a T.W.U. property, they cannot apply. They'd be exempt. Right. So technically we're down to one. We're down to one. So yeah, I'm starting to I'm starting to question July Sean right now. I agree. I think we have to do something to incentivize people. Yeah, I'm kind of uncomfortable with saying include all of those things because then I don't think there's as much incentive to go for the total designation because they're getting benefit without it. And so we might benefit for a while and probably just disappear. I think some of the options Cameron presented previously from some of the other cities, it could be if you are individually locally designated, your exemption percentage is higher. So it could be a range, right? If you if you're just contributing, you may not get the full 100 percent of whatever you all decided to do. It may be at 50 percent or 75 percent or whatever it is. So that so that may encourage them. Oh, let me go ahead and get local designated first so that I can get the full benefit versus just a partial benefit. So the people that, for example, that were just here, if their house is not locally designated, they what we're saying by this, I'm going to make sure I understand. Understood. So if they came back for that, we they wouldn't qualify. If they came back for the tax assumption and they weren't locally designated correct, they would not qualify as currently directed by the commission. That's what I think. I don't think that's what I meant. Well, it's giving me I feel like because I remember the discussion of the sliding scale because that's that was that was something we talked about. Look, we need to figure out a way to make this more affordable as an entry program, which which I'm in favor of. So thinking about using that type of tactic and include go ahead and include the ones that are contributing. But the idea is how to incentivize getting them designated. Right. I mean, because at the end of the day, that offers more protections, more, et cetera, et cetera. But it also might, in their view, involve more hassle and more. Right. They've got to jump through hoops and fill out forms, and that's never an exciting pitch. That's just reminding them that. But I'm not sure that giving them credit when they are not designated incentivizes anybody to go ahead and be designated. Sure, I guess that's possible. I agree. And then I think about that they're in a historic district already, so they've been labeled. They don't mind being unlabeled if somebody comes along and offers them enough money and they bulldoze the house and put some, you know, that mansions are really. Are we going to say we're not going to have jurisdiction over those anymore and we're going to open them up to do what they want and only those particular ones have to come before this commission? I thought I'm just saying, is that what we're, because otherwise what is the incentive? Does that make sense? Well, I just don't think you can give them an incentive without having some restriction on that property. So I did just want to jump in. So these properties that are currently in these historic districts, they do have restrictions on them. They have design standards that are attached, as we saw with the applicants earlier, as well as the Secretary of Interior standards. So there are restrictions that come with it. They're just not receiving the additional opportunity to apply for tax exemptions. So the standards that they're qualified to be a contributing property, they're essentially already eligible. They're maintaining the same standard to be locally designated. They just haven't done that yet. Correct. They probably don't want it on their property. Or yeah, or they're kind of doing what they want not to worry about the standards. But that's why attaching some incentive to it I think would increase the likelihood that they would then, for the tax incentive, to participate in that and then that might open opportunities to creating more designated property. And the way we have it now, any property in these historic districts are eligible for the tax. Any green property. Only a green property. Yes, only individually, individual, locally designated properties are eligible. That's why we're talking about expanding. That's what I'm talking about. Whether you include it or exclude it. Right, so just to go back to the background, at that time, Commission directed staff to not move forward with eligible properties. So not expanding the program to include contributing properties. But staff was directed of supporting to change our current tax sector program for designated historic sites, for individual, locally designated properties, and directed me to start looking at options. But before I present those options, I wanted to reconfirm that that was the direction from the Commission since it has been over six months. I can either confirm or deny 100 percent like accuracy. I'm in a stroke right now but let's see what you got. So, were you three the only ones here? I was playing the Hawaii the next morning. I remember looking at the cities and comparing them and what the other cities did. How many of us were here though? I don't even want to raise my hand. I think it was only four or five. So we're in a Hawaiian shirt by the way? Probably. I think you have it in your car. So right now, when the Jets replace their windows, they don't qualify for any tax incentive? No, not unless they're individually, locally designated. So a couple of months ago, we had a house on Willowood that we approved tax incentives for. So that house was locally designated? Correct. That's what the green ones on the map are designating. The ones that already have received the designation and then the tax incentive is on top of it. So I know somebody I think over on the side asked, so just like the house that folks here, they have to get permission to change because they live in the historic district, but they don't get any benefit out of that. They still have restrictions. They're not locally designated. Right, they wouldn't have the additional incentives. Is that incentive only available on improvements? It's improvements and/or restoration to the property. So if they're just in the neighborhood, they don't do anything and then lay down all the tax. $10,000 every 10 years. Do we ever have somebody in one of the districts make an improvement without coming here? More than one to know. And do we penalize them? What happens when that happens? We do not have a code enforcement officer that is dedicated specifically to our historic landmarks or our historic districts. Well, I think the people who do it right and come to us, whether they're locally designated or not, they should be rewarded for wanting to do it right and get the approval. And create an incentive. So when they tell other people, I got this right, and if I keep doing projects and go for designation, I'm going to get more. That's going to be better at advertising than anything. I think so too. I think that's because it's just to add on to what you're, Mr. Chairman, what you were saying is that currently as the tax exemption stands, a certificate of appropriateness and or building permit is required. So a COA, if they do exterior work, they have to provide me with that approval letter before they even can come to the board. So if they have said, Oh, I've done this work. I here's my invoices and they don't have a COA letter. I don't even bring it to you all because they're automatically exempt from applying for the program because that is a requirement, a COA and/or building permit. It has to be submitted before they complete it. Correct. And that is a condition of being eligible. So, you know, hindsight being 20/20, et cetera, et cetera. Bishop, do you have anything to add? Well, I think I'm sort of thinking about what ultimately the goals here are. And if the goal is as many designations as possible, okay. But if the goal is as much preservation as possible, then it seems like the more the more people that are incentivized to preserve the better, whether they're locally designated or not, unless the more local designations like is our goal, in which case we would want to withhold that incentive until they're wanting to take that route. But it seems like the standards are there. And if the goal is preservation, then the more people who are incentivized to do it appropriately and with the proper materials, it seems like we wouldn't want to necessarily withhold that. And maybe there is that, you know, scale of if you're locally designated, you're eligible for the full 100 and if you're not, then you're not. But either way, you're incentivizing the preservation. Yeah, at least they participate, right? They participate in that kind of preservation in a positive way. So point of order, if I ask the chair, do I ask? So I don't know if we're ready, if we're in a discussion and not proposing them, before we see your plan, or do we go ahead and see your plan? And then we go back and say, did I understand you correctly? I might be looking to be like, hey, can I say maybe switch that first one and maybe go back and maybe expand to include? So that's just a rubber turtle's point of order. Do I bring that up before you show us what you got? What we're doing right now is we're giving direction. So I think it might be appropriate subject to chair and Cameron's discretion to take, you know, temperature point, do temperature checks at various points to make sure we all agree what we have consensus on. But we're not taking formal action here. Yes. So there doesn't need to be. So it's just discussion. Yeah, it's just discussion. There's no action happening. Yeah, it's groovy. Groovy. I agree with Mr. Sherman and Commissioner Berger on what is the goal. And in my mind, for this commission, it's for preservation and restoration because we want the history to stay in the city of Denton and what it is. And in order to do that, it takes money and it takes money off the owner to do that. And, you know, I think that we would like to get more historic designations on top of that. I wouldn't want to take the whole tax incentive away from those historic districts for that purpose. That maybe if we go through a scale, maybe a tiered system where you're in a historic district, they're there and they have to abide by the commission and what their district bylaws and those things are, I think, for preservation because people can choose to not do anything. And thank goodness we saw that you talked about the K through that house probably could have been demolished and they took it and see what they did with it. And that was a great thing. And they had incentive with that, but they did it correctly. And that was a success story, I think. And I'd like to see that with some other properties. Well, this is what I was hoping would be the outcome of creating the tiered system that we had discussed was to create a like, hey, you've done a whole project. Congratulations. You get that. And then, oh, you got a second project you're bringing. Well, hold on. You get that, right? And then, so what happens is that incentivizes the continued participation, the kind of either, you know, restoring or even maybe even rehabilitating parts of it, right? Whatever of those four. Do you mean, so they have to be based on different projects or here's a project, here's what I did because I'm not a designation, but I'm in a district, I get this amount. But if I choose to go to historic designation, I would get a higher one. It is a tier. It's still a tier. But maybe I don't have to do another project. Maybe you're going to get this. If you go to the designation project, then we're going to give you a different amount. Ah, so we're talking about the Space Mountain Fastpass. Yes. Okay. Got it. How about if I skip the three projects and just go right to... But it is the incentive for designation. I mean, there still is an incentive. Are you suggesting that a tier system would, like, if you are spending $10,000 every 10 years, it's this much, but if you're, you know, doing windows and your plumbing, you know, whatever it is to make it that the tier is based on how much you're investing in the preservation or did I misunderstand? That was the detail we were going to work out that has yet to be kind of figured is how we want to incentivize that. Some of the prior discussion had talked about, well, what about for lower income? And let's say they can do the project to do, like, let's say $5,000 project, but then they're going to have to pay that off for several years, right? I mean, there's lots of different...or to convince a landlord to do it a certain way, right? Right. See? But no, in order to create something that's more entry-friendly, I mean, 10,000, 10 years, what about, like, five and five years? Just something to try to create a broader kind of either entry point, but then I also appreciated the idea of, like, well, you can afford it, just jump to designation and say, "I want a full enchilada menu, please," and on Space Mountain. So that's kind of where we had been discussing, and I think that's why I got turned around about what we had thought we had recommended was that in order to push designation, but to participate, right? Like, should there be some type of entry, right? Whereas seeing the number of properties in it...this is the entry plan. This is something to get them involved and aware, build awareness, build goodwill, and then because, like, this project, if Cameron gets to call him up in a couple of months and say, "Hey, by the way, you know, it qualifies now," because that's why he teased when he went out and wrecked it. He was like, "I kind of want to stick around and listen to the next part," but I think it would get attention going in the right direction, and better word of mouth, honestly, which I think we need. Have we ever just done any kind of polling in those districts to see why people choose not to? Because I think you just ask and see what they're saying. I don't think it's been asked. I can tell you, some of my neighbors, they don't own the homes. They rent them. And to Professor Treat's position here, the landlords, the owners, it's a rental property, and they do the bare minimum. And treat it. There we go. That, too. So I'm going to redirect this back to the discussion. Well, but if it's rental property and the landlord's not interested, why are we interested in giving him or her an incentive? The only way we would give the incentive is if they did the work, and they had the work done. And came to us first. And came to us first, and they did the necessary preservation or the restoration of the property, which is, I would like to see on a number of properties in every historic district that we have. And I mean, to me, the goal would be to have it out there like a carrot, get them to do it, and the benefit would be that they are preserving the property. And say, wait, tell me more. They're not getting an incentive just for owning a home there. They've got to do something that we approve. But they're already getting income, which is what they want. Sure. And I would say the chances are we won't get very many of these requests from landlords. But it doesn't hurt to -- I mean, I don't think it's a problem to have the incentive available. I do. Does that help? So I'm leaning towards -- no, it's great discussion. So kind of taking everything in, it seems that the majority of the commission is leaning towards including contributing properties from local historic districts as part of these tax assumption options that I will be bringing forward. Okay. Perfect. Any other discussion? Okay. All right. Are we ready to move on? Nope. Oh, we need to see what you have. Oh, no, I don't have options. We're not presenting options tonight. I needed confirmation before I brought the options forward. So just reiterating, you all told staff or directed staff to expand our current designate historic sites tax assumption program for locally designated properties only. So I'm just highlighting the ones that are there. But based off our conversation just now, I'm going to change it that we're going to be looking at adding contributing properties to those list of options, tax assumption options that I'm bringing forward to you all. So we're good? We're good. Okay. Well, then we're done. Okay. Now we're done. Okay. All right. Next item. 4C, number HLC 25-004. Tell the discussion regarding the Historic Landmark Commission project matrix. Matrix. Matrix. Chair, did you want to call the matrix? Or 003? I think I might have got her blood clogged on her. Okay, sorry. Well, let's go to 003. Hold the discussion to give staff direction on Historic Landmark Commission requests for local historic designation of eligible historic properties. Do you want to have any? You do? I do. Okay. Let's hear it. I am just -- Would you like me to type in the address? Yeah. Or you could pull up your Instagram. We'll preserve that in Instagram. It's 120 East Oak Street. It is the Stockard Building. I'm going to read from I believe what Cameron would have written. This is a building I have admired for a really long time. It's right downtown. You've seen it thousands of times, I'm sure. It's on Oak and Austin. Is that what that cross section is? Yes. So this building, the Stockard Building, was designed by a Denton architect, Roland Laney, for Gerald and Eloise Stockard. Okay. Well, let me bring it up, but keep talking. I can show the pictures. It is this building here. So Oak Street is here and Austin Street is here, and it has got the basket weave. And it's mid-century building. It's really lovely. It was -- Oh, yeah. There we go. Yes. It is currently, from what Denton, the Appraisal District shows, it is still owned by the Stockard family. Oh, it's the Tozo. Yeah. Yeah. That's the ever-filling Tozo. Yes. It was built for Gerald Edgar Stockard. There was a law office. He was the county attorney. He ran for county attorney, and he was county judge. I think it's a beautiful building worth preserving. Not only was he -- was the owner an important person in Denton, but it was designed by a local architect. It is -- what -- there was -- oh, it was in -- 60 -- when was it built? It's definitely -- '59. '59. It was built in '59. Pretty groovy. Yeah. So that's my recommendation. When did you take those pictures? Because they don't have the -- That is Google Images. There. And this is -- this is what I have pulled up is from the Preserved Denton Instagram that -- Much more glamorous shot. Yes. Yes. And if you have it, I encourage you to look. Because there's -- Cameron captured some really excellent mid-century details in the railing and in that beautiful basket weave concrete poor situation. I think the new parking designs, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, they're there to park there. I think they need to go in there, too. Because that's for me. That's why you paid to get a parking permit. Yes. All right. Do we all agree? Do we have an agreement to add this one? Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. I'm checking. Do we need one? No. You got enough? Yeah. Perfect. Nice. Anyone else? I do. I'm proud. Oh, wait. Do you want me to put up the address? Yeah. Let's do it. So this is a building that -- so I rent an office space in this building. Which one is it? 114? 1415. Oh, okay. I was very -- yeah. So my understanding of this building, other than, you know, me renting space in there, is that it is -- so it was -- I know for sure it was built in 1917. I don't -- there's some additions that were added to it, and some changes. What I was told by my landlord, from the person -- that he got this from the person he bought it from, is that it was a Sears modern home catalog. No. I don't know. So, you know, I was doing -- this is what he was told by Dalton Allen -- if anybody knows Dalton, he owned the building before he -- you know, Hugh, my office landlord. Hugh Coleman is my office landlord. Okay. So former county commissioner. Which makes it historical, so I was like, okay, county commissioner owns the building. But it needs a little -- it needs a little love, you know, for sure. But certainly it was built in 1917. I would like to know more about the history. Hugh just doesn't really know, right? He's just getting what he was told. I looked through some -- what I could find on the internet from around that time period for the catalog. I didn't see anything that looks quite like that, but there also had been changes. I mean, I know there was substantial work done in the '80s. And I think -- I mean, if you look on the side -- Which side? The north or south? I guess that would be south. Okay. Let me see if I can get a good view. It might be harder to see from there. I wonder if I can get a different view. I wonder if you can get with the alley behind. I don't know if you can. There is an alleyway back there. I don't know if it will -- Oh, you can? Okay. Okay. See it? Oh, look, there's a cat temp in the wall there. Okay. Yeah. So -- Oh, yeah. Hold on. So there's Hugh's old truck that was his grandfather's -- or his father's truck. So those stairs there, that can't be -- I mean, that's certainly not -- I mean, I know that that stuff's not original. Sure. But I don't know when things were added on or what was added on. From the inside, it's all a whole building that's just wood. Cool. And -- I love the front door. Did you see that -- the header of the front door? And there were two brick -- look like -- maybe there were columns there? Yeah. Yeah, it does look like that. The two brick on each side of the front door, which was cool. And of course, the trash can. Yeah. Right there. See this brick? Maybe there were columns there. I know certainly if there were incentives to fix things up. Right. That would be something that would be considered by the counselor. Yes. It's a conflict of interest. I'll move out. You know what? He doesn't own it. He doesn't own it. I'll move out. I'll be happy to move out without him. But I think it's a cool building. Especially if it's a Sears house, aren't we glad? Especially if it's a Sears group. That is neat. And even the one when we were doing that, like next door, too, would be -- Yeah, well, so I'll look to see -- I didn't look on the appraisal district to see my store near those buildings. That'd be cool. I mean, I'm sure it's an old house. Oh, it is. Come on. I don't even know my neighbors. I should go meet them. Okay, so we have interest in 1415. I have it written down. I just want to make sure we have -- yes. Okay, perfect. Is anyone not interested? Say that's better. We are. Yeah. Anyone else have one? Look at that. Two and one not. Yes, I got another one. You do? Okay. So we are -- more of a question of clarification. Why don't you go through the training seats and things? Hold on. I've been curious about that. I didn't know -- when am I supposed to bring it up? Oh, I can literally bring it up in the meetings? Well, here we go. I'm still disappointed that, you know, Frost has people talk to us. Well, right. But let me -- I'm working on that. I've had a couple milkshake conversations. So hopefully they'll return to me. Back to being open revenue business, I'm sorry. No, no. There will never be revenue. No, they're way beyond that, my man. It's like that ship is sailed. They're open when they're open. So that's why if I see it, I'm going to let go. Okay, so I'm sorry, the property. Yes. Use perhaps know it better as Oak Street Draft House. It's a 308 East Oak Street. Yes. Okay. That home, the old Shipley Manor. I got into a conversation with them because they recently redid -- they're putting in some handicap access. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You guys know that if you're, like, doing something, and the place could use some work. They're just about to have their 13th anniversary because it was set to be demolished when John Williams bought it. And so he was able to get it back up and give it a pass code. But I'm sorry. It is -- 308. Yes, 308 East Oak Street. So the Oak Street Draft House, they're about to have their 13-year anniversary. And so I was like, you know, wouldn't it be cool if maybe you -- you're going to do some work to it. You're doing work on it. Wouldn't it be nice to, like, maybe get some hospital incentives on that and get it designated? And they're curious. And so because he also has Eastside Draft House, which I think might also be potentially significant. We can look at that later. And Miss Angelina's. And Miss Angelina's Draft House, correct. Although there's been a lot of stuff. But worth looking at, right? So his interest in old houses, plus putting in money to bring them up. I'm like, hold on. This is kind of like the sweet spot we're looking for, because you would be like a poster boy if you really leaned into this program, right? So John Williams is just like, oh, I'm away to my next thing. But yeah, send him an email. Send me an email. And we'll be together and we'll talk about it. So there's that. Anyone not interested in 308 East Oak? How about, how'd you like that? I love that. That was good. That was slick. So look at that, three. I love it. I'm so excited. Okay. Anyone else? No. I don't want to leave anyone out here. Okay. All right. This is a new precedent, by the way. So don't feel that much pressure, because, you know. All right. How are you doing, Mom? Okay. Now we are on 4C, number HLC 25-204. Hold a discussion regarding that Historic Landmarks Commission Project Matrix. Yes. So we have obviously our historic tax exemption discussion. Once we get our tax exemption discussion in place, we are going to have a focus group with historic property owners. Just to kind of walk through that. We are planning to have that marketing discussion sometime this spring. Just trying to get us through the tax exemption. It's a lot when it comes to a meeting. So just trying to get through that process. I will. In regards to the Denton Women's Club, I know that's been an important discussion. If you all have any specific questions, speaking with legal, staff was guided towards waiting until there's a budget determination. Because it might be about 10 plus years that we're seeing that Quaker Town Park project come forward, unfortunately. So staff was directed. So staff was directed to put that on hold until there is a budget determination. And then in terms of, I know this was brought up with the historic district signage and kind of that larger discussion of unification and everything. That's also going to be brought back in spring of 2025. So we have some good things to look forward to. If you all want to add anything, please feel free to bring it forward right now. And I just wanted to remind you all, we do have a short turnaround between meetings. We do have our next meeting on March 3rd. All right. Anything else to add? We added enough. I think we did. I think we did. I think we did. All right. Any other business? If not, we will adjourn the meeting at 634 PM. Thank you.