Aug 12, 2024 Historic Landmark Commission on 2024-08-12 5:30 PM

>> I do not have any blue cards in my possession, ma'am. >> All right, we are going to call the meeting to order of insert point commission. It is a regular session meeting. It is Monday, August the 12th, 2024. I have the time at 5.31 p.m. If you will please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Honor of the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible. Thank you all. >> All right, we do have a quorum present, and so at this point we have a presentation from members of the public. Do we have anyone on mute to speak? So no? Okay, no one to speak. I'm moving on one. All right, item three for consideration. We have item 3A, number HLC 24-0035 on our agenda is to consider approval of the July 8, 2024 minutes. I hope you all had an opportunity to read those minutes. Are there any corrections that you know of? No corrections? Do we have a motion to approve? [ Inaudible ] All right, all in favor of approving the minutes, please raise your hand and say aye. >> Aye. >> Any opposed, same song? Thank you. All right, moving on, item 3B, number HL 2-Core-0002 on our agenda is to hold a public meeting and consider making a recommendation to the Planning and Zoning Commission and the City Council regarding an application for a historic landmark designation in accordance with section 2.9.4 of the DIT and Development Code for the property located at 1526 Willowwood Street. The property is located on the north side of Willowwood Street between Kendall Drive and McCormick Street. So we will hear from Cameron. >> Thank you, Chair. So as stated, this is HL 2-Core-0002. The property is 1526 Willowwood Street. It is located on the north side of Willowwood Street between Kendall Drive and McCormick Street. The owners are Jennifer Lane and James Carr. The construction date is circa 1978. So before I move on, just wanted to share with you all. So when it comes to a historic landmark designation, the property does not have to be 50 years old. So the property can be less than 50 years old if it is worthy of designation. So I just want to preface that before I move on. So the building's history. It was originally constructed for Mr. James J. and Judith H. Bellman. It is that contemporary style. The architects were based out of Houston, Texas. They are Anderson and Wilson architects. The contractor was Neil J. Adams. He was based in Denton, and there has been five owners since 1978. So today's request is for a historic landmark designation. It is located in the Denia neighborhood. It is zoned currently R3 zoning and has been used as a single-family residence since its construction. And it is located on approximately 1.7 acres. So these are just some current photos of the property today. This is that front south facade, and then we have the rear north facade here. In addition, we have our east facade, which does have that garage, and then the west facade. These are just a survey and flat of the property, and it's highlighted here and outlined in red. So you can just get a better idea. So staff analysis is currently based on or looking at section 2.9.4(d) of the Denton development code. Specifically for this property, it does meet criteria 1, 5, and 11, and I'm going to run through each of those. Any questions before I respond? So approval criteria 1. So during the late 20th century, we started to see a live work movement happening here in the US. And one of the main cities that really took off with this live work movement was Houston. But for Houston, which was really interesting, it kind of started in the 1950s. And they kind of found that loophole in city planning, because Houston is still due to this day. So Houston architects really at this time started experimenting with that live work lifestyle movement. But it wasn't really until the 1970s that that movement really took off. And one of those pioneers, or the pioneers truly, of that live work movement was Anderson Wilson architects. They were really featured prominently in the Houston area, both as designers and clients. They built their own structures themselves and lived and worked in them. And 1526 Willowwood was constructed and designed by Anderson Wilson architects. They provided two artist studios, actually, in the home itself. They configured a photographer's darkroom, as well as a pottery studio. So it's really interesting in terms of that. Any questions? So moving on to approval criteria 5. As previously stated, it was designed in that contemporary style. So the contemporary style really became popular in the mid 20th century. It did borrow some of that design from the international style, which was wood frame structures that allowed the home a little bit more movement. The structure itself is asymmetrical structure. It is largely unornamented with a lot of stucco surfaces. But it really does play a large emphasis on light textures and openness. So a lot of that detail in the structure is in the interior. But that makes for a really interesting exterior. So as stated, the focus for most contemporary style structures is really on that interior of the residence. It looks at the functionality of the indoor space, as well as that integration of outdoor views into the interior. So the property that the developments actually based their home off of was in Southern Living. It was a home designed by Anderson and Wilson architects. It was in Southern Living in 1972. Judith Fillman thought she saw Southern Living magazine, thought it was really interesting, really liked the style, and asked for it to be expanded upon. So that's the home that we see there today. It's based off Southern Living, a home that she saw. But one of also the really main and very important striking features of this home is that 20-foot high by 60-foot wide enclosed front courtyard that we saw here. So come back right here. That's very unique to that contemporary style, because that is the front door entrance to the home. And today, it features a garden and box turtles. The original blueprint design showed it having a pool. Miss Fillman did not want a pool in the front. So that's why you see that elevated walkway bridge that goes over. So there is a garden. And there's still two box turtles remaining today from the original 30. Wow. So moving on to approval criteria 11. So as I've talked about, the original owners were the Fillman family. They contributed largely to the Jewish community in Denton and Denton County. They were one of the founders of the congregation Nicole Ami, which is now based in Flower Mound. But they operated for over 20 years in the city of Denton. The fourth owner, Dr. Gilda Garcia, who is shown here, she contributed heavily while she was in Denton to UNT. She was the chief diversity officer and vice president at the University of North Texas as well. And then lastly, we have the fifth and current owners, Jennifer Lane and Dr. James Carr, who have not only contributed to UNT, but also nationally and internationally. Jennifer currently teaches at the UNT College of Music. But they are both recorded musicians and singers, as well as Dr. James Carr is a teacher as well. So they've both got lots of great, interesting history, not only current history, but past history connected to this property as well. So stats analysis. So as part of stats analysis, I also was looking at the 2019 Historic Preservation Plan, specifically that goal 1, policy 1.3, which looks at prioritizing and designating eligible buildings in areas for potential landmarks and historic districts, as well as the Denton 2040 Comprehensive Plan, specifically goal CC2, which is preserve and maintain the unique character of Denton for long-term sustainment. So staff is recommending approval of the request for the historic landmark designation of the property located at 1526 Willowwood Street. As it does, it is consistent with our goals and objectives of the Denton 2040 Comprehensive Plan and that 2019 Historic Preservation Plan, as well as the sections outlined in 2.9.4B of the Denton Development Code. Thank you so much for any questions. Yeah, Commissioner, is there any questions? It's pure curiosity, but are the studios still functioning as art studios, creative studios? I can ask the applicants to come up and answer that question if they would like. Sure. Can you come up here? Yes, they are. Their purpose has been changed a little bit because the dark rooms aren't really used so much anymore. The dark room is now used mostly for sustainable. We have added solar panel array in the back. So the dark room is used to measure that. And then also the pottery studio is now used as a music studio, but it's still completely intact exactly as it was. My husband would be in love with those studios. Those are his master's degrees in pottery and photography, so he'd be in love there. Funky, artsy, definitely love it. I can think of love it. Is the construction-- is that concrete, or is it stucco? Not that it matters. The exterior is stucco. Stucco, yes. Actually, it's stucco, but it is concrete. It's concrete. It's almost two inches thick, actually. And from time to time, I've considered repairing a couple of the areas that need repair. And when the stucco people have come, they've always just been dumbfounded by it, by the quality of the work, and praised it. And it's actually made us a little bit concerned trying to find somebody who can measure up to what was done by the Adams Company. No other questions? I don't have any other questions. OK. Thank you. All right, so we are looking, based on the presentation, for a motion. And I think we can have a motion for approval, a motion for a denial, or a motion for a combination. I'll make a motion for approval based on the staff recommendations, and it being fresh. Funky. [INTERPOSING VOICES] And I want to thank her for the history that she got. Because even though I lived over there all this time, there were a lot of things that I didn't know. Oh, it was so, so fun to reconnect with the Feldmans, who now live in New Mexico, and to share information back and forth, and to work with UNT Library to find those old articles that are not digitized yet. They had to be found in the magazines themselves. And then when Judith sent us the photographs of the build, that was just it. And just for your knowledge, the blueprints are in Emily Fowler Library. We took them there last year. And so they've been scanned, and they're available. Thanks for that. I just want to say, I'm glad that they had to be 50 years old. Because when you said 1978, it started to hurt my heart. [INTERPOSING VOICES] This is not what I pictured when you said '78, though. You know what I mean. [INTERPOSING VOICES] All right. We have a motion for approval by Commissioner Treat, and a second by Commissioner Adams. All in favor, raise your hand and say aye. Aye. All in favor, OK. Unanimous approved. Thank you guys very much. Thank you very much. Thanks, everybody. Thank you. Yeah, OK. We are moving on to the next one. Item 3C, number HL24-00003 on our agenda is to hold a public meeting and consider making a recommendation to the Planning and Zoning Commission and the City Council regarding an application for a historic land commission designation in accordance with Section 2.9.4 of the DIT and Development Code for the property located at 1900 Westridge Street. The property is located on the north side of Westridge Street, just east of Highland Park Road. This is HL24-003. Cameron, you have another one for us? Yes, I do. Exciting times, right? [LAUGHTER] So thank you, Chair. As you stated, the property is at 1900 Westridge Street. The owner is Mary Seetmore. And the construction date is circa 1970. So don't worry. [LAUGHTER] It was originally constructed for Horace R. and Yulene W. Brock. The architectural style is contemporary style. Yes, it's a little bit different. It's just a different kind of take on contemporary style. The architects are Mount Miller architects. The contractor was Burton Moore. And there has been three owners since 1970. So today's request, similar to our last request, is for a historic landmark designation. The property is located in the Demian neighborhood. It is zoned R3. It has been used for single family residents. And it's located on approximately 0.68 acres. So these are current photos of the property. That front south-facing facade here, facing Westridge, that east facade. And then the rear, which shows the north and the west facades. This is a survey of the property as it is currently. So staff's analysis is based off section 2.9.4(b). This property meets criteria 4 and 11, which I'm going to dive a little bit more into. Any questions as of right now? So approval criteria 4. As I previously stated, it was designed by Mount Miller architects, also known as Tom P. Miller and Isabelle Mount. They had a lot of influence here in Denton. They served on lots of boards and civic organizations, as well as helped essentially build some of that fabric of Denton during the second half of the 20th century. So over 45 years, when they moved here in 1953, so starting in 1954 until 2000, they are responsible for designing and remodeling close to 300 residents. Not only in Denton, but nearby towns as well. Some Mount Miller examples that are still standing today is the former Denton Fire Station number 4, as well as that 531 North Elm Street. That is just our neighbor, just right up the street here. In addition to the Mount Miller architects, it was constructed by Burt Moore. He's also known as the Den Creek guy. You'll see some of his houses throughout. Yeah, made out of cement blocks. That is most likely built by Burt Moore with his Den Creek blocks. Moving on to approval criteria 11. Horace and Eileen Brock, they are the original owners, as well as helped and worked with Mount Miller architects to help design the property. So obviously, they had a huge important role in the social, economic, ethnic, and historical heritage in the city of Denton and Texas. They did serve on many boards and commissions, including nonprofit organizations. Eileen, as we know, served tenure as a city of Denton mayor. She also helped found the Denton Christian Women's Interracial Fellowship. And then Horace, he had a long career at University of North Texas. He served as the department chair within the business school, and then director and chief executive roundtable. So in addition to the approval criteria, staff looked at the 2019 Historic Preservation Plan, goal number one, policy 1.3, and then the Denton 2040 Comprehensive Plan, goal CC-2. So staff is recommending approval of the request for a historic landmark designation of the property located at 1900 Westridge Street, as it is consistent with our Denton 2040, as well as our 2019 Historic Preservation Plan goals, and does meet section 2.9.4B of the Denton development. I stand for any questions. Mr., do you have any questions? Total nerd question. So how do you-- what kind of things help Din Creek stand out? What kind of things do you like to spot it, or-- Oh, for instance, there's one on Houston Place. Or there's two on Houston Place. They're perfect, just cinder block squares. And you can-- they're not covered at all. They were exposed. So it looks like a house just constructed of cinder block. Right, right. Yeah. I believe that they look like normal cinder blocks you use, but they were lighter weight. So he developed his special formula to make them high higher resistance, which I think is a natural property in CMUs, but then lighter weight. So that's what I know. But, Visibly, I don't know that you can tell the difference. But, you know-- And Isabelle especially liked working with him, because she had trouble with-- or they, the Millers, had problems with some of the actual builders in Denton, because they would see something that they had designed and think, I'll do it this way. And Isabelle was the one who would go in and say, tear it out, do it the way I drew it. OK. I love it. [INTERPOSING VOICES] OK. We have the RFPs that the Mount Millers developed when they sent it out to contractors for award, and lots of type controls. I mean, it was just fascinating to read through. Not just typed up on the typewriter, you know. No auto pad, nothing else. So it was fascinating to do all the research. I think people just assumed that builders do what's on the paper, but they didn't always. If they saw a simpler way to do what they thought was just as good, they would tell me to do it again. Isabelle wrote her on them very well. She was in there, got on her hands and knees, and looked at things and-- Suffered no fools, as they say. Yes. So with that said, I'll move approval of this application. And I will second. Thank you very much. Commissioner Adams and Commissioner Treat. All right. Any other discussion? All right. We're ready for a vote. All in favor of approving the historic designation for 1900 Westridge Street, please raise your hand and say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Unanimous again. Thank you, guys. Thank you for helping preserve some of the history. Yes. A round of applause for the vote on this. [APPLAUSE] Appreciate that. It always tickles me when somebody starts digging in, and they're like, oh my god, this place has stories. I've walked by that house for 20 plus years and wanted to buy it. [LAUGHTER] With the help of a lot of people. Well, thank you both for your due diligence in coming on board of the historic designations. All right, we have a work session now. Item 4A, number HLC 24-034. Our agenda is to receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the conceptual plan shown in the design downtown didn't plan for Quaker Town Park and implications for the O'Neill Ford Civic Complex History Landmark designation. Which I will say, I had no idea that the Civic Center did not already have that designation. Wait, what? What? Is that what this is? That it didn't? It's the property, right? It's designated? Is that it? Yeah. Maybe I should wait for the presentation. I'm like, wait, hold on. [LAUGHTER] OK, sorry. I just had a full panic moment and got it. [LAUGHTER] Hold on, wait. OK, it's not going to-- OK, perfect. OK, hi, everyone. OK, so I'm just going to give just a quick background overview of the design downtown didn't plan. And then we're going to jump in and focus primarily on that Quaker Town discussion and that O'Neill Ford designation. So just to provide you all a background, this started in June 2023. It didn't really launch until July 2023, but it's been made up of four different phases. The first phase was that Understand phase, the next phase being Envision, phase three being Act, and then the current phase, which we're in right now, is Adopt. So this is the general outline boundary of the area plan. These are not hard boundaries, but when it comes to a planning document, you do need to have those boundaries just so that we kind of know what area we're working at with. But just want to preface before we move forward that these are things that are being proposed as part of this plan are going to be beneficial to all surrounding neighborhoods in the larger Dunn community. So public engagement review. We have lots of public engagement. Most of it launched in September of 2023. Lots of pop-ups, workshops. I'm sure-- I feel like I saw a good majority of y'all at those workshops. So the Downtown Visioning Workshop, Quaker Town sessions, Feedback Finale. But you can see from those overall online engagements, plus the ones that are in person, we've had a lot of engagement for this plan. Just wanted to show you all the vision statement. This was approved by the advisory group that is working on the Design Downtown Denton plan, as well as Council Planning and Zoning and Parks Board. So it is-- Design Downtown Denton is to be a more walkable, beautiful, and fun destination. And one of the things that y'all can focus on is preserve and expand the distinctive local businesses, foster that strong sense of community, and safeguard the historic and artistic character while promoting growth and development. So as part of that public engagement, we came-- our staff and working with Mend Collaborative, who is the consultant, and getting feedback from the community and the different boards and commissions. We came up with five, eight community priorities, which are focused here. And as we kind of go towards Quaker Town Park, and I just highlight briefly some of the historic preservation strategies that you all will be integral to, these community priorities are being highlighted as part of those different actions and recommendation steps. So these are the overall recommendations. I've highlighted-- or I've outlined in white the ones where you all, as a commission, will be very integral, which is 3C, which is Strengthen Historic Preservation Opportunities. And that is to target development to build on downtown's character and assets. So that's kind of looking at promotion of tax credits, creation of conservation districts, youth shed protection studies for the courthouse or Morson's Milling. So those different types of different action steps. But also, it would be looking at recommendation for F, which is Established Downtown Brand. That sounds kind of like, whew, what does that mean? But that's really looking at wayfinding. So one of the things that's being proposed is historic signage and historic pathways. And what do those look like? So that's where you all will be very needed and be an integral part of that. So jumping in to build a network and improve public spaces and jumping into the Quaker Town Park master plan. That's kind of what I wanted you all to focus and have this discussion with you all this evening, is the Quaker Town Park. And right now, the property is a Disney landmark. So the property as a whole, is the O'Neill Ford City Complex. It was designated in 2017. And as part of that designation, it includes the structures, it includes the waterways, it includes the landscaping, it includes all those different key pieces to O'Neill Ford's design. But as we have heard from the public, through the public engagement, and as we're trying to bring this park up to the 21st century, essentially. You know, we have tried to see how we can preserve the past, or how best to preserve and to acknowledge the past, especially the story of Quaker Town and that displacement. But also still recognize the past of O'Neill Ford and his importance also in Texas and his architectural movements, but also how does this park move into the future. So it's really a balancing act between three different things. Quaker Town and telling that story for the first, truly for the first time in the park, O'Neill Ford, and then what does it look like in the future. But as stated, the park itself is designated. So what does that mean? You all as a body, any time there's something that's coming in for the park, you all have jurisdiction over what happens. As part of the plan, one of the things that is being proposed as a potential action step is to amend that designation. And what I mean by that is to essentially-- I'm going to read it out of my AIS to make sure I do it clearly, because it is a little complicated. But the plan is proposing to revise and clarify the local landmark designation of Quaker Town Park to limit it to the O'Neill Ford design structures and landscape features that remain intact. So a lot has changed in the park. The pool has had a lot of maintenance updates over the years. The senior center is not an original O'Neill Ford design. It was not part of the original O'Neill Ford complex. So part of the features that would remain intact as part of this new conceptual plan for the park will be city hall and the courtyard. So city hall right here in that courtyard. The civic center right here. The sunbathing hillside right here next to the civic center pool. Emily Feiler Library, and then the general shape of the creek beds themselves. So I would like for us to have a discussion kind of how to see, you know, answer any questions or concerns that you all may have. And then with this recommendation taking place. So, can I start you? Questions. So what's the context of this change? What were some of the reasons given for making this change? Because if I'm understanding it, what this is is drawing back our kind of input into this to only be O'Neill Ford structures. Am I hearing that correctly? Yes. So O'Neill, those landscaping pieces that remain. So it would be the creek beds and the hillside that come in Big Bend hillside that's currently there today. And then, yes, those O'Neill Ford structures that are in place. Does that exclude then the sculpture that's down there? It was also done by Tom and Isabel. So are you asking, would it preserve that? Yes. It would not preserve that, no. So it would be up to parks decision if they wanted to preserve that. So because it's the O'Neill Ford civic complex, it's specifically looking at preserving what O'Neill Ford had his, I guess, hands in, would be a way to say it, or designed. You did mention the women's club. Is that not going to be part of that, or is that-- Den Women's Club is designated as its own landmark, separate from Quaker Town Park. So it does have, technically, two layers of protection right now. It's within the designation itself. But it also has its own individual destination. So currently, we provided a copy of the ordinance to you all. It is very broad. It doesn't provide much specifics. It just states that the park as a whole is designated. But it doesn't call out the specifics of what needs to be the jurisdiction of HLC or staff. It's just preserving the property as a whole. But right now, and currently as a Quaker Town Park in remembrance, we just have a sign that remembers Quaker Town, the community, and then the signs that were implemented last year as part of this attorney. Mr. Tree, did you get your question answered? Yes, you did have a separate part of your question, sorry. The context-- what's the impetus here? Is this going to input control within the hands of parks in solely of making decisions about the grounds, the trees, the other property in the park and around the park? Yes. So to preface, once again, this is the Quaker Town Park master plan. So this is a conceptual design that got thousands of people's input, essentially. It got parks department's input of what they felt that they were capable of handling. It got online input. It got input from the parks board at different meetings. So yes, it would give that control to the parks department with amending the designation. Go ahead. Commissioner Scherfling, if I could add something. So Tina Fargan, Deputy Director of Development Services and Planning Director. So right now, as Kim pointed out, this is the conceptual master plan that's being proposed as part of the downtown plan update. One of the things that we know that we will need to do in the future is to come back and work with the Historic Landmark Commission regarding any amendments that may need to be made to the designation ordinance. Because of the designation ordinance being as broad as it was at that time, that we see value in working with the Historic Landmark Commission in how we might go about in amending that designation in the future and being able to address some of the finer details of the questions that you may have right now. We wanted to be able to share this plan with you so that you can see what's being recommended as part of the designed downtown debt and plan. But knowing that there are subsequent steps that we have to take with the Historic Landmark Commission because of the designation that exists today. So I think the whole purpose of the conversation today was just to introduce this plan to you all so you can see. So that if anyone asks you, hey, did you realize there's a plan in there for Quaker Town Park that you're familiar with what's being recommended for improvements with that. But know that we will need to come back at a later date as a separate action item to be able to address the designation. At that time, I would anticipate that we would have a much finer conversation as to what aspects the Historic Landmark Commission would be reviewing as it relates to any modifications to the park. Obviously, the structures that exist on the property today, I would anticipate that you'll have a role in that, just like you do today. But better defining as to where your actions are going to be, items that would need to come to the Historic Landmark Commission versus maybe items that are delegated to the Historic Preservation Officer for approval. The Parks Department still has the ability to be able to need to utilize that open space. So it's how do we utilize that open space? And then to Cameron's point, still preserving the events of 100 years ago and acknowledging that aspect, but then also the O'Neill Ford buildings. So hopefully that offers a little bit of additional explanation to possibly address some of your concerns. We're not looking at peeling back the commission's role at this time as it relates to the park. It would be very much an integral part of that conversation at such point in time when we need to address the designation that exists on the property. Thank you for that clarification. I don't know whether that makes you feel better. No, I'm thinking probably like you are. I don't understand, honestly. My question is, why would we want to basically give that up when they could still can have a development plan. It still can proceed with things they want to bring it up to 21st century, those types of things. I just really, we just said on another slide, it's about to preserve the downtown plan. And to me, if we give that up, we're kind of pushed back saying we're not preserving anymore. So I, just off the bat, and I think I'd have to know more, I wouldn't be forgiving enough, but that's just my thought. - And we anticipated that. So that's why one of the things that Cameron and I were talking about is that we will definitely need to come and have that conversation with the Historic Landmark Commission to understand what are those items where we feel like the commission does need to have an essential role in on what improvements exist on the park site today. Like I said, I would anticipate that you all would still be heavily involved with respect to the existing structures that are out there with some of the key aspects of the past with that we noted in the, like the waterways, the sunbathing hillside, those aspects, because there are gonna be certain items associated with the park that have significant linkages to the past that the commission may feel much more strongly about of having involvement and what happens to those items versus maybe some items where there may be some flexibility that's granted to the Historic Preservation Officer for approval of a COA, or there may be some items that you define that maybe do not have a historic significance where there's no review needed. But we don't have those answers today yet. We would need to come back and have a much more thorough, detailed conversation with the commission based upon, in working with Parks Department. These are the items that we feel still need to remain in your purview. These are items that we should consider delegating to the Historic Preservation Officer. Here's some items that we feel like may not need to have a COA addressed within at all, but being able to have that conversation with the commission where you are providing that direction to us as we work on that designation amendment. - I just don't see that different as what's already in the ordinance and why we would need to amend it for those reasons. That's, I just feel like Quaker Town history, that whole area, the history behind it is huge. - So I need to ask a further clarified question if you don't mind, follow up. So by taking the initiative to directly declare these buildings as under our purview, is that somehow strengthening any protections on those particular buildings? - Well, I think that's already been done, has it not? - Yes, that's already been done. - Yeah, that's already been done. - But that strengthens protections for those structures. - Correct. - Correct, okay. However, the park grounds themselves, those would then fall outside of our purview and therefore they could be subject to whatever type of modification might be deemed okay by the city or by the parks. - By Parks Department, but that would also, as Tina was stating, that would have to be a larger discussion that we have that you all have as a commission stating, hey, we are willing, you know, I'm just gonna give an example. Where we need to, we wanna protect all the O'Neill forward structures, the creek, the embankment, but we also feel like this has a really integral history so we actually wanna preserve everything south of that. But then parks can have the park land north. So it's, the designation currently as is, is just very broad, it encompasses the entire park. So as part of that planning process, with the amount of different structures or event spaces that people are looking for as part of the public, there is so much, it would have to go through the historic, even if it has nothing, even if it's putting a stage up, it would have to go through the Historic Landmark Commission. And so, but how does that tie to history if it's temporary? - What happens if they fuck up the roots to our trees? So here's where I'm going. Okay, so since it's open for discussion, I'll just discuss. - Right, yeah, yeah. - I mean, let me do a little Jasper thing here. There's some very good historic reasons that there should be skepticism of this falling entirely under the city's purview and their discretion. Because as far as I'm concerned, this property is sacred land, and we got it by not so great means, okay? And the reason was the people that were there didn't have a say, they couldn't vote. And it was happening with or without it in every way, shape, or form. So what I'm pointing out is that I feel like, rather, I'm feeling like these restrictions to pull back are a relinquishment of our possibility of also being a check and a balance against possibly some decisions that might be motivated by, oh, I don't know, let's say commercial appeal, or what happens if someone comes into this park, and I'm not even kidding. They set up a stage where they use equipment, and what it does is it causes damage to root systems of old trees in the park. No one may not be thinking about that ahead of time. I feel like the Historic Landmark Commission, yes, we don't wanna get drowned down in minutiae. Like every time they wanna put up a bandstand, we're getting, you know, I can understand the logic there. But the historic significance here is something that I feel needs to be aggressively protected. And I feel like that's one of the reasons that whenever it was placed in this purview under this commission was with that as designed. So my concern would be that these are great discussions to have on the front end because the potential for misuse or potential abuse without that extra set of eyes or extra set of concerns, that would be something that I would find highly problematic. - Does this not include the senior center? - Correct. - So that would not be part of the purview that you're saying you would want us to give that back to the city? - So this is just, once again, this is conceptual design. Senior center was never designed by O'Neill Ford. It was designed to look like O'Neill Ford. It's not 50 years old. And from what we've been informed, it has a lot of maintenance. The pool itself has been redone about four different times. None of it's really original at this point. And it does not get enough use. So those are why you don't see those two conceptual or two things as part of the conceptual plan. I do wanna preface in your backup. It does, I provided the entire chapter regarding the Quaker Town Park Master Plan. Before any work can happen, an archeological survey does have to take place. Just wanted to let you all know. So for this entire park, an archeological survey would take place. Any artifacts that were found would be preserved. And so there would have to be steps taken before anything could even happen. But as Tina has stated, before even that portion, we'd have to have, as a commission, a staff is talking and have a work session as well as hearing regarding that ordinance and what that looks like if it were to be amended at all, if it weren't to be amended at all. But at least if we would not be to work through that, just as staff, definitely at least providing some clarity in the designation of what is included, even if it's stated landscaping, buildings, all of the above. - Mr. McAllen, do you have a question? - Well, I'm gonna go back to the sculpture that's down there because I think it's obvious, if that came before the park board, nobody on there has the history to know what that is, that they could just immediately say, gosh, move this out, clear this piece of junk. But because Mount Miller has such a history in Denton, there are so many of those structures. And that's the only piece of park structure that I'm aware of that they developed. And it's odd looking, but kids absolutely love it. And I think it deserves to be protected. So I don't want the parks board to have the authority to move that out of there without it. - Speaking of the concrete things there, the senior center, yeah. - So I have just half of that hole here. So if that was something that we did say, okay, we're gonna do that, oh, no side. Now, it is possible parks could come in and say, we're gonna tear down the civic center, we're gonna tear out the pool, and we're gonna do something different. - They would have to come to you all. The buildings would still be protected. - But they do not include the senior center there. - Because it is not O'Neill Ford. - That's right. - Right, right. - So this doesn't mean. - I just wanna say hypothetical here. I don't know, I just think the whole property there is historic, every bit of it. I think it was made that way for a reason. And I would, I'm not saying that, I would like to see you come to us and say, hey, here's kind of what we're thinking, we'd like to do this and this. We haven't come in and said, no, you can't do that. So I just kind of, I don't know, it would be hard for me to be in favor to give it up. - And that's what I'm anticipating, is that we would come and have that conversation with the Historic Landmark Commission and say, hey, everything that we've evaluated on this site, we think either A, it all needs to be included, or B, we think that all of the property, except for this piece over here, should be included. Do you agree, disagree? But having that conversation with the Historic Landmark Commission, so you all would be an active part of that conversation. So, because, to Kevin's point, I know we need to do the archeological survey, but the other aspect also comes into play, is funding has to be set aside for this plan to be implemented to also understand what the next steps are that we want to take. But again, the Historic Landmark Commission would be an integral part of that conversation to be able to see, okay, is there anything that would be re-linguished? If not, then no, we're keeping all of the property, and especially if there's any modifications that are being made to these areas, definitely having a COA that comes before the Historic Landmark Commission. It could be the items that are already delegated to the Historic Preservation Officer continue to remain. It could be that there are some responsibilities that are allocated to the HBO that we feel still need to be better assigned to the Historic Landmark Commission to be able to address. So again, it's having that conversation with all of you when that time comes. We just wanted to put this plan before you so that you are not surprised by it and so that you're informed, but also know that later on, if we come to you and are having that conversation, because we've identified certain things that we want your feedback on, so that you're aware of that. - Commissioner Timberman, do you have any insight, any thoughts? - I mean, I'm looking at, I don't know if it's, I think it's the same thing, but it's got the, I mean, I have some thoughts. I don't know if it really falls under our, just seeing some of the things that are proposed put in there, but I mean, I'm in agreement with everybody. I mean, this is a huge change to, this is like, I'm pretty much in agreement with everybody, but there's some, like I'm looking at cafes and things. I don't know if talking about that is something that falls under our, but I thought it's just as a citizen of Denver about those things, but. - Commissioner McDonough, anything else from you? - I don't know if they're gonna take, if there's any possibility they're gonna take that away, but I might say so. (laughing) - I'm against it. - Thank you, Commissioner Gregory. - Yeah, I'm, you know, just a question about essentially the implications of what this change would be, so if it were to happen, so, right, we talked about sort of like the important buildings, but also like the view to them, and when I look at this, right, I'm seeing literally like from McKinney, all view of those two O'Neill Ford buildings probably aren't, isn't visible anymore, and so I'm just thinking about maybe just saying out loud that that would be an implication of this commission not, right, if the whole property isn't protected, then there's not, if I'm understanding correctly, right, then we can't have a say so if those buildings get visually covered by new structures that I'm thinking would not. - Okay, Commissioner Tree, anything else to add? - I reckon. Once you seal the pay, you can't name it, though. - Well. (laughing) - That is, we give it, we, in principle, relinquish a modicum of control, then we're basically depending upon the accounts of strangers in conversations, rather than being involved at the gate, so that's a long struggle to make. - I agree with the commission here, and I think relinquishing that is big. I think our, the whole reason we are on this commission is to preserve and protect, and I think to relinquish it is giving that up, but I don't think we're hard to get along with. I feel like if they, if there was something they wanted to do and they brought it to us, I think we're open to a lot of proposals, so I don't think by saying, hey, we don't wanna relinquish, we're not in for, you know, bringing things up to 21st century, those types of things. I don't think that's out of the purview, but I just feel like relinquishing is just totally opposite of what this court is for. - Okay, are we ready to move on, do we have anything else? All right, you guys ready to move on? - Not until I'm all over KQ. (all laughing) - I'm right there with you. (all laughing) - Okay, item 4B, number 8L C24-032 on our agendas to receive a report, hold a discussion, and give staff direction on the Historic Landmark Commission's request for local and historic designation and eligible historic properties. Does anyone have one that I need to bring? - Any word from Prosthes people yet, Matt? - No, nothing from Prosthes, nothing from Prosthes. - Okay, can I just ask, if anybody knows, I've been told that south of the New Eagle, whatever, development, it's south of, in the Denia neighborhood, far south, and kind of southwest, that there is a large acreage with an almost falling down huge house that was apparently an architecturally specially designed house that somebody owned and it's still there. I was told that it was falling down and that a couple of cows had, at some point, walked in it and died. - Do you know a chance for a street? 'Cause I'm not sure, sorry. - Can you pull up a map? - Can I say the cow part? Sorry, I sort by cows. - Maybe pull up a-- - Yeah, I'll turn it up a little bit. - We'll see if we can approximate it then. - Are you concerned about designation of the structure or the cows? (laughing) - We can do an archeological survey of the cows. - Preservation of the cows? - Yeah, let's do a preservation of the cows. - I wonder if, I've never seen it. It's apparently not available to the public to go in. Somebody, I guess out of town or somewhere, owns the property. - And it's south of Rosalong? Do you know? 'Cause there's this property. - I don't know that it's that far. There's a big house on it. I was told it must be at least 6,000 square feet. And it looked like, from the pictures that I was shown, it looked like it might be, oh yeah, okay. - I'm just, I'm just, I'm sorry. - I don't really know where to go. (laughing) - I can zoom in and just go like, slow. - It's south of Little Wood, I know. - Okay. Well this is, I think this is the development you're speaking of, correct? Okay. So, there's Little Wood. Oh, but it's south of this development, sorry, right? - Yeah. - Me. - I think it's me. - I was gonna say, I know Leanne's property's very old. - It's, it's, it's, oh it's not hers. - Okay. - It's, it's on the, it's west of 35. - Okay. - 35 west or 35 east? - West of 30. - Five east. - No, no, east of 35 W. And west of 35 E. (laughing) (overlapping chatter) - So we're in between. - Mm-hmm. - The in-between. - Okay. - There's a small lake on it, I think. - A small lake? - That helps. - That's the only one I know with a small lake. - Pond. - Lake. - Pond. - Pond. - It's pretty large. - Pond. - Yeah, it's a very large pond. - Yes. - These? - These are-- (overlapping chatter) - These look very new. That's a pond. - Wait, if you went back to where that tank was, the lake-- - Oh, oh, sorry, sorry, this way. - That structure right there beside it. - That's one. - I can't-- (overlapping chatter) - What is that? - It's a structure that I can't see. It looks like it has a flat roof there, so it looks probably mid-century model. - It's skylighting. - Can you see out through it, and you look closer? (laughing) - Maybe, lady, if you want to do some more of our work and research, maybe you can go down for us and send Cameron an email. - Yeah. - We can do some further. - I'd say I'm happy to look. If you can give me a general-- - Where is that? - This is West, or yeah, West of Bonnie Brea-- - Brown Brothers Trail. - Brown Brothers Trail, other than Bonnie Brea. West of Bonnie Brea. It's close to 35 West. - You can't tell if it's a two-story or not, so it could be. - Maybe. - Yeah, it might be. There's something here. - No, that doesn't look like it. - Okay, well, it is east of 35 West. - That looks more like it, 'cause I've been told it in that direction. Okay. (gasping) - Sorry, I've been over here. I've got my mic over here, 'cause that's the bin that goes around Bonnie Brea. - But it's not something that you can just see. You have to get past a-- - Right, it's fenced off here. - You have to get past a fence to get in and see it. - It's got a big, it's not even a fence, it's a big metal gate. - Okay, well. - I can do more research. If we think this is the property, I'm happy to look into it. - Okay. 4101, Brown Brothers Trout. - Okay. - I hope that's not the bloody Brown Brothers. - Okay, I'm happy to look that up. - I didn't know it had, the picture that I showed, it had a great big room and a huge free-standing front place in the middle. What's that property? - I think we're thinking of the same one, but I didn't, I was thinking like some haunted mansion, because you said cows died in it, so. I think that's the property. I think we're thinking it has like an inset living room, like you step down into the living room, and then there's a fire pit in the middle. - Yes. - I think that's that property. It's like a mid-century modern home. - Well, is there any possibility that we might find out who owns it? - I would say I'll look into it. - Oh, look into it. - Bye. - Bye. - Bye. - Thanks for coming in. - Thank you. - All right, anything else on eligible historic properties? All right, we're gonna move on to item four C, number HSC 24-033. We're gonna hold the discussion regarding the Historic Landmark Commission's project matrix. - Yes. - Yes. - Matrix. - Okay, so the template and agenda, still working on that. So that's gonna be presented in the early fall. As you probably all realize, the historic tax exemption discussion did not, continuation did not happen today, but we are gonna continue that on September 9th. Staff is currently speaking, thanks to Lacey. She set up a bunch of different meetings with cities, HPOs, so I've been having meetings with different city representatives to talk through their different tax exemptions, some of the challenges, some of the successes, what they're looking to do, if anything, in the future. So I have had those meetings, and I believe we have two more of those coming up. And then focus group regarding historic property owners, shock about historic preservation procedure incentives, still scheduled for early fall. And then presentation preliminary guidelines, that's on hold. And then general topic training relevant, the duties and interests, that's a monthly occurrence, but it's been kind of on hold with the tax exemptions as of right now. But that's it, is there anything that you all would like to add? Or? - No. - Okay. - All right, does anyone have any other business to discuss? Yes? Cameron. (laughing) - I'm the last. - I'm the last. So I did want to make an announcement that our sweet Lacey is leaving us. So this is her last meeting with the Historic Landmark Commission. (indistinct chatter) - I'm not going to be a dispatcher, I'm not going to be. (indistinct chatter) Tina's looking at me like she did not know this information. Sorry, I thought you knew, I'm so sorry. This is my last meeting. I'm leaving at the end of the month to go be a dispatcher for the city of Edmonds. - Oh, you don't want to do that. (laughing) - You always do that, Lacey, it's okay. - Y'all are blessed. I have loved, I've been here almost two years with y'all. I love it. I've loved every minute of it, but this is a career I've really been looking forward to for a long time. I'm very excited. It's been a long application process, but I heard on Wednesday that I passed everything and I am moving forward, so. - That's okay, so I'm going to take my calls first, when I call you. (laughing) - Congratulations. - Thank you. (indistinct chatter) - Thank you. - Ms. Kathy is going to be taking over my spot, so you will get the quorum emails, the background materials, stuff like that. It'll all go through Kathy. If you ever got an email from me, it will not be her. - But Kathy, you've been with the city for a long time. - Yes. I worked at CSOP and I do planning and zoning commission. Did have a HLC for a while. - That's what I was thinking, yeah. - Yes. - Oh, welcome. You get to be our new favorite now. - Oh, thank you. (laughing) - I'm not even gone. (laughing) - I'm still here. - Okay. And then one more announcement. Sorry. (laughing) No, and then in regards to the design downtown dent and plan, the public hearing for that is this Wednesday for planning and zoning commission. That starts at 6.30 p.m. at the city council chambers, and then September 17th for city council public hearing. And that is at city council chambers starting at 6.30 as well. - Where can we find the full plan? - Discussdenton.com or the engagement website if you're familiar with it. But if you're going to Discuss Denton, go to the design downtown dent and plan. It's the first post and I put a smiley face next to it. I believe we're at, wow, like a explosion. - I can't remember which one I picked. - Okay, you said this Thursday at what time? - Oh, this Wednesday. - Wednesday. - At 6.30 at council chambers. For planning and zoning. - Plan C. - Yes. - Public hearing. - Yes. And then city council's at September 17th. We did a smiley face and then it's okay. - Oh, I did both? Okay. - This is my little face and explosion on Discussdenton. - There we go, there we go. Okay. There we go. All right, any other business to discuss? All right, then I will be thus adjourned at 6.35 p.m. - I command that. - Can you share some stuff? Please go eat food. (people chattering)