Aug 05, 2019 Traffic Safety Commission on 2019-08-05 5:30 PM

The first item on the agenda is TSC 19-035, which is to consider the approval of the Traffic Safety Commission meetings of July 1, 2019. Now, has everyone had a chance to take a look at the minutes, and are there any additions/subtractions? Okay. Do we have a motion for approval? And we have a second. Everyone in favor of right hand up? Aye. Okay. Those pass. And that brings us to item one -- whoops. They're not lettered. Okay. Item one A, one B, TSC 19-036, which is to receive a report and hold a discussion regarding Article III of the City Code, which governs boards, commissions, and committees, and vote on the Absence Report Code for Dan Krutka for the July 1, 2019 meeting date. So has everyone had a chance to take a look at this? And effectively, we have to vote on whether Dan gets himself an excused or an unexcused absence. It's very exciting. Big-time flashbacks to high school right now. I know. Here you are. Here you are. Yeah. You know, full disclosure, of course, we talked about your last time. And also full disclosure, the issues of, you know, keeping attendance and things at these meetings has not been -- it's been on the books, but it hasn't been something that we've necessarily, you know, paid a lot of attention to. But we have, you know, are beginning to pay attention to them. So there you are. Coincidentally when you leave. Yes. Yes. And so, you know, in the backup, there is an, you know, explanation of what is excused, what is unexcused. And there you go. So what do you all think? Are we going to excuse Dan for July 1, 2019? That's a good question. Yes. You can have the floor. Well, I read the minutes for everything. And so I think this is a good policy, I think it's good for us to keep track and know who's attending, because that's important. We can't have a quorum without attendance. And I'm guessing this is simply on the honesty principle, right? Like you, if I said I was at doctor's appointments the last two months. We would accept it as is. So I kind of, the one thing I was kind of thinking about with this policy is, and it may not matter, because this may be the way it's written, but does it really matter at some point whether they're excused or unexcused, right? Even if like you had a medical illness and were gone and you were continually missing meetings at some point, it's probably time to like, you know, to resign your position and have someone else come on. So whatever the reason. So I'm kind of curious about that. My July app, since I'm happy to have it unexcused by the policy, because it was just for travel. But the bigger picture I think would be, it doesn't matter how often we're at the meetings for these to be functional. Right, right. And that was part of our discussion last month, and, you know, that simply from a procedural perspective when we know that somebody is going to be guaranteed to be gone during a certain time, that puts more burden on everyone else on the committee to either make certain that we're here, and if we can't make a quorum, it puts a bigger burden on than everybody else over here saying, okay, you know, we have to push that agenda item until the next month, and it could be something that's somewhat time sensitive. So that's why, you know, we had the discussion that we did. So Jim? I'll make a motion to accept Dan's recommendation. We'll excuse him. Or we will not excuse him for July. Whatever he just said. Okay. Okay. Second. And we have a second. Okay. You will this time say that we will not excuse Dan for July, you know, by his own recommendation. And you get a clean slate starting September. So -- Is that our annual -- Right? -- we start off over? Let's say he does. I don't know. I'm going to make up rules as we go. Yeah. Clean slate. September. All right. There we go. Okay. Okay. Real punishment there. I might just do it again. Oh, wait. Okay. After the meeting is when the punishment phase occurs. Okay. Okay. And then -- I would have thought it would have started when you started, and then it would have been a year. So -- Poke, poke. I thought it was on. I'm sorry. Okay. So when does it start? Does it start when you start, and then you have a year? And is it inside that window? That's a good question. This is, you know, getting predicated on the assumption everybody would start in September, but that does not happen. So -- So I've been informed it's a fiscal year, so it restarts in October. October. October 1. Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. For everybody. Even if you can't -- even if you rolled on in June -- Correct. -- then -- It's a 12-month between October and October. Okay. Okay. Good to know. Okay. All right. You got to be here in September. Well, I've got it. Now it's only my first one. I've got -- [ Laughter ] I've got extra ones. You get two more. Okay. [ Laughter ] All right. Shame on you. Okay. Everyone, in favor of not excusing Dan for July, I and A, raise your hands. Okay. You are not excused for July, officially. Okay. That brings us to Item 1C, which is TSC 19-037, which is to receive a report regarding the installation of no parking signs along Dutchess Drive. Good afternoon. Hello, hello. Oh, okay. Sorry about that. Good afternoon. So staff wanted to update the commission about a recent signing and striping project along Dutchess Drive. In May, we received a request to review this street because people were having a hard time driving past people that were parked on the north side of Dutchess. So this is what we recommended, and in the past two weeks, this was completed by Traffic Operations. A center line was installed from Loop 288 all the way to Trailhead Lane, which is the last road, and basically, Dutchess is 40 feet on the east side, and then it tapers down to only 22 feet. So this really doesn't allow for two travel lanes and parking on the north. So from where it tapers down all the way to Trailhead Lane, we put no parking signs. So that's basically the extent of what we did on Dutchess Drive. Any questions? Not regarding that, but are there any plans to extend Mockingbird to connect with the north side? Mockingbird? I would have to check that. It's off topic. Off topic. Off topic. Well, so typically, we would wait for development to occur. Any undeveloped property, such as the property on the south side of Dutchess, is responsible for constructing their portion of the roadway. So for an example, when that property on the south side comes in, the other half of Dutchess will be built, and we can rethink the no parking, but Mockingbird, the undeveloped property north of this, will be responsible for building a part of Mockingbird. Any other on topic questions? I can't stay on topic. Okay. Anybody have anything else? Pretty easy. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. That moves us to TSC 19-038, which is to receive a report and hold a discussion about pedestrian, bicycle, and motor vehicle accident statistics in the city of Denton. Good evening. Mark Oliphant, Bicycle and Pedestrian Coordinator for the city. I'm going to make this big. Okay. Tonight, I'm going to talk a little bit about bicycle and pedestrian crash data. We have two sources for this, although ultimately, I think all of the data comes from TxDOT. They collect this data at the state level and distribute it that way, but I have two different sources of mapping information. So the first, this is a tool provided by the North Central Texas Council of Governments, and it is a KML file that you can download and open in Google Earth, which is a free mapping platform available to everyone. Please excuse the words up in the top left. I used another template and did not fully delete what was there. So please ignore that. I'm sorry. Oversight. So looking here, this is an overview where you can see the aerial photo. And we have listed, it's a little difficult to see here, but we'll go to some other that make it a little easier, but you can at least see landmarks because this is an aerial photo. So your green dots are non-fatal pedestrian crashes. Your blue are non-fatal bicycle crashes. And then there are some stars in there, but very few, and they're difficult to see. The stars indicate where we have had fatal crashes, but I'm just going to go through a couple of heat maps here, generally. So this is interesting, you know, the data can be presented in a number of different ways, which kind of tells different stories depending how you look at it. So essentially, downtown Denton is where we have our greatest difficulties with bicycle and pedestrian crashes. High density right in the middle, and in some ways this is to be expected because we have, that's the center of town, there are lots of intersections, there's lots of traffic. One-way streets, two-way streets, just that is really where the majority of the activity is taking place. This has the actual points for the crashes overlaid on that heat map. And so you can see a relationship between where these are located, denser crashes through the center of town, kind of over getting towards UNT, a few outliers out by the loop out there. Go to another one here. This is data from looking at the whole county, though we've zoomed in on Denton itself. So these stars are where we have had fatalities, the red star is either bicycle or pedestrian crashes over the five-year period, 2013 to 2017 inclusive, and then crashes there. So again, you can see we have on the east side, we have this cluster, we have a very dense cluster through the center of town, and then just some outliers, although you can see 2181, you can just follow the roadway there in some ways. Go to the next one, this is a heat map of that same general data. It's interesting to see this. This has, illustrates better that outlier on the east side along the loop, 288 loop, and that's worth investigating. I don't know what's going on there, honestly. Are people living nearby and crossing, is that a lighting issue, but that is definitely indicative of something going on there. And then just looking specifically at bicycle crash locations, I just divided this all out. You can see along, there we go, along McKinney, you have kind of a linear data set there. Again, center of town, the UNT campus, and then some sprinkled throughout. But we also get up sort of into the Razor Ranch area here. All right, pedestrians crossing University, also all along 35, and this is very interesting as well, why we did not have that, if you look back, the bicycles somehow don't get on 35 or on the frontage road. And you know, we can dig deeper into this data, we can download spreadsheets from the TxDOT website and kind of get really granular on it, but I thought that was something very interesting that all along 35, we have these pedestrian accidents, fatalities, that cluster on the east side of the loop, that seems to be a hot area that I don't really have an explanation for right now, but again, downtown UNT. So moving on, this is just an illustration of what that tool looks like if you log on to TxDOT, so you can get individual records, you can't get to where you're getting private information, but you can get a lot of information about each one, and you can also get much more detailed heat maps by going directly to TxDOT, and so you can see right in downtown we have these crashes. And then I just wanted to look at overall statistics with you in general, so nationwide bicycle and pedestrian accidents have gone through the roof in the last 10 years, we were doing really well until about '08, '09, from the '90s until '08, '09, it was consistently dropping, and we are now back to where we were in '97 or '98, and the two contributors that I hear for that are the smartphone came out about '08, '09, is when they were first started coming out, and then also the prevalence of SUVs, because if you are struck by a sedan, it typically has a very low nose on it, a low grill, and it will knock your legs out from under you, and you will land on top of the hood, whereas SUVs, pickup trucks, larger vehicles, they tend to hit you in the vital areas and cause serious damage, and so we have a lot more fatalities. Now Denton has not tracked exactly that, it's interesting to see our trends. I don't know to what we can attribute this, we sort of have this roller coaster shape of crashes, now the trend line is generally upward, that could also be explained by things like the population growth of the city, growth in the number of students, there could be other factors, although it's not desirable to have any accidents of course, and so the breakdown is, and this, I was able to get one more year of data up to 2018 out of going directly to the TxDOT data portal, 425 total bike and peg collisions in that six year period, skewed male, although large numbers of both males and females, and more pedestrian incidents than bicycle incidents, and this is all directly from TxDOT, so I'd be happy to answer any questions about this, or we can have a discussion about this. Well when we do look at that, all of the bike accidents on McKinney, are there plans currently for getting bike lanes and sidewalks, because that is a really difficult area to traverse on bike and on foot, and it is a lot of bike and foot traffic on McKinney. So the area east of about Mack Park, where it goes down to one lane, McKinney is scheduled to be widened in that area, and as part of the widening, there is going to be a side path, I believe it's a 10 foot side path on the north side of it in that area. Now going back and retrofitting in the area, I'd say between Colorado and downtown, you have less, you have less right of way to work with, there is a grant for sidewalk installation kind of just north of, right by the train tracks, out to, well right out here. But that's like 200 or 250 linear feet, and that has been designed. Those are the two projects I know of that we have going on right now. We have been doing the mobility plan work, we just had two public meetings for that, and McKinney definitely did come up the difficulty traversing east-west through there, and so it will be something that as we continue the process that will receive consideration. How were the decisions made about putting a road on a road diet? Would McKinney be a candidate? I don't know. Or slowing down, how fast do people go on McKinney, because there is a squall right there, I believe the speed limit is 30, 35, and then once you get past Mack Park, it goes up to 40. My question is, if it's going to be widened at the time, and people have been getting hurt or whatever in that area, could we put the walkway in first, and then we give, because right now, if you walk past Salvation Army, and once you get past Salvation Army and Dollar General, it's road, you're walking on the road, and it's like playing Frogger. It's like playing Frogger, and for the people in those neighborhoods there, if you're coming out even if you want to right past Mack Park, the neighborhood that sits to the left, if you want to cross, there's not a crosswalk there, it's not anything there, there's no crosswalk there, so it's like, like I said, it's almost like playing Frogger if you want to cross over, so it's like, oh I got enough room, and a lot of times even though the speed limit drops and then it goes back up, most of the time people are going upwards of 50 miles an hour until they get past Mack Park, right where the - Well, there's somebody walking in there, check it there. So I guess my question would be, while those people are walking, and if that's going to be widened, can we put the walk past in first, instead of waiting for the street to be widened, and you know, if you put the walk past in first, then you'll eliminate people for walking on those breakdown lanes. Okay, so to answer the question, is there a program to improve McKinney, there is a construction project that's, I think it's 100% designed and funded from 288 East, and so that project will go to construction before the end of this year, so those dollars have some time limitations and we have to move into construction with what they're calling, well, phase one, the farthest east is already underway, but the rest of it, all the way to 288, will be under construction or let for construction by the end of the year. From 288 West, there's a secondary project that is under design, we're going to go for a 30% design and look for some partnering funds, we don't have the money in a bond or any other capital improvement program right now, so we're going to look for some partnering funds for that, but to answer your question, because that construction is pending or impending, we'll probably allow that to happen, those sidewalks to happen with that construction from 288 East, which seem to be kind of coincidental with some of the accident crash history. And then the portion west of 288, we can examine opportunities for some side paths, be it even an asphalt, a lot of times when you're in a, where you don't have a full drainage system in place, it's difficult to put, because you've got these large swales and it's difficult to put a, you don't want to put a permanent concrete sidewalk, it'll undermine and you'll have to replace it or tear it out when you're wider road, so we can look at some alternative materials and look at if we have an opportunity and some funding, identify some funding for pathways prior to construction, again, that's that portion where we don't have the money right now, we're looking for some partnering funds, either with the cog or with text dot or a grant, so there may be an opportunity there. Okay. Well, some of the area that's to the west of the Audra, Woodrow, Connector, could some of them, some of the, could get some funds for safe routes to school, because Rivera is just on the other side and there's got to be children that are walking to Rivera. Right. That's what I'm saying, there's no crosswalk, once you get past, I forget the name of the street, right where the 7-Eleven is, I don't know a street name, where the 7-Eleven is, 7-Eleven is on this side. Yeah, I said Colorado, but it has many names, it's Audra and Woodrow. It's a whole bunch of names. Once you get past there, you know, the sidewalk's in right there, then once you get past, there's no sidewalk, no crosswalk until you get all the way down to the loop, you know what I mean? So you have a neighborhood on this side, you walk down, you have a neighborhood on this side, you run into apartment complexes, so there's not a crosswalk or like the thing that's across the street right here. Right, the RRFB. Yeah. Right. You know, even, you know, if the goal is to drive down pedestrian and bicycle accidents, putting even one of those, a crosswalk with one of those, you know, it'll get people in the habit of, "Hey, I gotta slow down." Right. You know, get them in the habit of, "Hey, I gotta slow down," someone may be crossing the street. Right now, it's like, "Urgh," you know, it's like that there. So currently, we've expended, or exhausted, rather, all of our sidewalk funds and we've got most of our Safe Route to School money already programmed, however, there's an agenda item at the end of this, is the 2019 bond, where we can talk about some further opportunities with sidewalk construction. Okay. Okay. Okay. How is the funding determined for the amount, you said, sidewalk money's run out? What would be the best way to address that, or what do you think was the, what's the funding breakdown for things like sidewalks, bike lanes, and streets? So what did we have in the last bond election, two million? It was 2014, yeah. So we had two million in 2014, and I'll go ahead and give you a little spoiler. They're proposing 12 million in 2019 for sidewalks. Okay. So we can leverage that money, we can, I mean, our goal would be to take that 12 million and leverage it as much as we can with either text dot call for projects, or a cog call for projects with Safe Route to School, and then use the remainder for just general sidewalk construction. So we've got that in that bond election item. In the bond, I don't think there is- I don't know that it was identified. What we can pursue, and I'm not sure if the language has already been established, I come from a different environment. I came from Fort Worth, where it was pedestrian and bicycle funding, and they had 15, and three went to bicycle, and 12 went to sidewalk. I don't know that that language has been set here, and we may have some freedom in using pedestrian and bicycle infrastructure improvement dollars. So I can't really answer that question, but I think we can ask it prior to the November election for 2019. The majority of incidents are in the core of Denton, so that seems like a wise policy would be to spend exponentially there, if that's where most of the accidents are happening, and also if that's where the most people are walking and biking. Do you feel like we have enough funds and efforts to do it? I guess I would use McKinney as an example. The McKinney Cross is great. It slows traffic, it makes a safe spot for pedestrians. We could use one on Bell and Carroll, too, among other things. Are those types of things being looked at to address design-induced accidents that are occurring? Design-induced, as in changing the design of the road? Changing the design of the road with the assumption that the road is a big reason these accidents are happening, not the people. They're being put in an environment that's causing a lot of these accidents. Yes. Yes. It is being looked at. I mean, there's the MUSE project around the square, which is focused completely on making that much safer and more passable. I don't know that it always factors as high as we would like it to, compared to some other considerations, like cost and convenience for vehicles. But it is definitely looked at, and it is considered, especially in this downtown area. With any data set, it depends how you look at it, right? So it could either be that these are very dangerous areas or this is just a very high traffic area for bicycles and pedestrians. I tend to think it's the latter, although, of course, there are definite improvements. If we had a big checkbook that we would like to see, we would like to make, a number are underway. There's a text-up project to improve the sidewalk and driveway aprons and ramps along Elm Street coming up. So there's a number of things, but we can't do it all as quickly as we'd like to. Is there any way of identifying some of the most dangerous areas, especially where citizens have reached out? I'll use Carol and Hickory as an example. We had a pedestrian hit there, severely injured, could have died easily. But if you ask anybody, it's a dangerous intersection for pedestrians. The thing I would say is our numbers are probably depleted there because people choose not to walk because it's so dangerous and choose to get in a car instead of ever even walking. So that actually probably lowers our numbers, unfortunately, it hurts the health of citizens and our city, it hurts local businesses. So I know that got brought to numerous council members, it was in the news, it made everything. I don't know how far out are we from that, six, eight months, and I don't know if there's been anything done. And there's easy fixes to that intersection. So how do we identify these dangerous areas that we know what to do? We could do all kinds of things with that intersection to make it safer, but it seems like everyone brings it up, it fades and nothing happens. And I've said this a few times lately, but I've been on this committee since 2016. I feel like we just keep repeating, hey, this area is dangerous. And we're seven years later, nothing's happened. And so how do we speed up these, the most prime areas to get something done? I guess is my question. I thought we installed brighter lamps on the street lights, can anyone else confirm that? I thought at Carroll, at Oak Hickory, and Mulberry that brighter lamps had been installed within the last year. We do keep track, we keep track of suggestions that we get. We do keep running lists as we hear from people about sidewalk improvements and so forth. The question there is just whether or not we will have the funding to do it. So we have a list prepared, should that bond be passed. We do have a list of high priority locations that we've heard from people about as far as new sidewalk improvements. Could that be part of the process is actually prioritizing? This is our number one priority, for example, Hickory and Carroll, and then determining what would the funds be to fix this. And maybe having an active list that citizens and this committee in particular, too, could have available as discussion points. Because I think it's really easy to lose track of it. It's hard to keep track of which ones we've talked about. And then again, it's easy, nothing seems to get done in some of these cases. We do also have the project, the ADA transition plan for the city, which has been ongoing the last six or eight months. We had a contractor drive all of the sidewalks in the city with a retrofitted ATV that measured your pitch and yaw. All the different conditions of all of our sidewalks and all of our signalized intersections. And when we get the final data on that, we're going to have cost estimates. And I believe there will be some sort of a priority metric that comes with that. I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but they will be graded that way. And that is upcoming. Would that be something, since it's ADA, hoping to get ADA compliant, would there be federal funds for that or is that like an unfunded mandate? As of right now, not funded, but it will be able to inform us as funding becomes available where we can concentrate. I have one more question for you. Yeah. When an accident happens at an intersection that has the cross lights, is there a way that the timing, I know the one on bell, and when I talk, I was speaking about where I've been. One on bell, you push and it says wait, and then it says bell, bell, bell. Before you get to the middle of the street, it's already blinking at nine. By the time you get across, the light has already changed. You see what I'm saying? By the time when you're crossing, you push, you wait, and when you're crossing, you're not all the way across and the light has already turned green and you have people sitting in their car looking at you and something will even start to go, then you have to, you know, that may be a contributing factor to those pedestrians, you know, accidents happen with the cross lights because a lot of the, the one on Teasley is the same, is the same way too, you know, you push, you wait, and before you can get halfway across, it's already at nine seconds, you know, so you, you speed up or, and, and, but the light that, that you cross against, it's already turning green before you can even get through the sidewalk, so that may be a contributing factor too, maybe just a calibration that needs to be, you know, that can happen to where they can say, okay, you push, it takes this much, just, you know, as long as you get across the street, they get a person to amp them out of time, you know, sometimes people in cars are impatient. So definitely, we can look at the minimum pedestrian timing that's required to cross and we should, that should already be in place, so one of the efforts and initiatives that we're going to take in the next 12 months or so is to look at a lot of our major corridors, we're going to retime some signals, I know it seems like it was just done recently, but I think we can do better and one of the issues, one of the items that we're going to push forward is what we call the leading pedestrian interval, so before the cars get the green, the pedestrians get the walk sign for about five or six seconds, which allows them to step off the curb and to get started through, then the cars get their green and as they begin their maneuver, whether it's left, right, straight, whatever, they can see the pedestrians are already in the crosswalk, the vehicles have to yield, one of the conflicts that we have, and especially with right turns, is that historically, the walk sign and the green have come up together, so the car's waiting, waiting, waiting, wants to turn right, sees the green, he starts the maneuver, same time this pedestrian sees the walk sign and steps off the curb and that's where we have collisions, so what we do now is we give those pedestrians a little head start, so they're already, they've occupied the roadway and therefore have the right of way, so I know we always tell people the pedestrians have the right of way, but the way the law is written is it's a 50/50, so if you haven't, as a pedestrian, if you haven't started your maneuver and the car's moving, you're supposed to yield, but we tell people that pedestrians have the right of way, so they step off the curb and cars already move in and we have a conflict, but that leading pedestrian interval gets the pedestrian clearly in the right of way, occupy that crosswalk and the vehicle has to yield, so that's one of the things we're going to be pushing forward, and you know, right there on bail, when you push and it's a left hand turn, we come from down there, and when you push, you know, those are going to have the turn signal, so when you push and the light turns green, the person that's trying to make a left, they normally go ahead and they turn, so there's another timing, which you call a process, is that if the car gets there first, it wants to turn left, so he's told, there's sensors, we use cameras, we use radar, we use a lot of different mechanisms, but the intersection knows the car's there waiting to turn left, he's in the left turn lane, and the pedestrian walks up after that and pushes the button, he won't get the walk signal, the left turn will go first, and then it will clear the pedestrian to go after that left turn, eliminating that conflict, so you won't have that, basically what we're trying to do with the signal timing and the way we phase and structure that interval is that we don't want the pedestrian and the car to get the green light at the same time, and in the same direction, so whenever we have that conflict, left turns and right turns, we try and separate them. Do you have any data on how frequently vehicles are ticketed for not obeying pedestrian right away and cycling right away? Okay, so this is a two-part answer, yes, I believe we do, and the second part is, unfortunately, typically only when there's a collision, so I don't think, I've never seen an accident or a ticket citation issued that you failed to yield the right-of-way even though nothing happened, so typically it will be in a crash report and the cause of the crash is going to be failure to yield right-of-way, but I'm not aware of a lot of citations being issued for not yielding the right-of-way to a pedestrian. Well since, you know, a lot of people no doubt drive into Denton, you know, drive the farm to market road and then at 65, 75 miles an hour, and then get into Denton, which is in a totally different environment, maybe increasing citations when somebody, you know, when an officer sees a car not yielding to a pedestrian, when the pedestrian has the right-of-way, maybe we should explore increasing citations to start, you know, making people pay attention to pedestrians and bikes. So this might be an opportune time with school coming up, and we can talk about our meeting in September, but in an upcoming meeting, now that we're going to have a lot of pedestrians back in town, maybe we invite the police to give us kind of a brief insight to what their practices are and where their priorities are. I'm sure it's not going to be popular among vehicle drivers, but the vehicles are going to win, and the pedestrians and cyclists are going to lose. So they lose 35 bucks because they haven't yielded. Well, you know, maybe that will stop a pedestrian from losing a leg. So would it be of interest to have a presentation from PD? Sure. Yes. Because they're ramping up right now, so, whether it be September or October, that probably would be an opportune time. That'd work, yeah. I'm not here. Y'all can do it. I'll come watch. And then just another thing about going forward is associated policies. I think I've mentioned this one before, but we have some new peoples. I know some cities have tried the universal, like, downtown speed limit, you know, as a way, because I know speed limits usually don't change behavior, but I guess there's been some success around if it's, like, marked distinctly, and it's the whole area is the same speed limit, so we slow down. And you know, we have clear problems on Bell and Carroll. People treat those like little highways. They have low traffic, so cars can just speed up and gun it. But they're right next to the core. It's at the center of our city where you have the most cyclists and pedestrians. So again, I think just going back to that idea of, like, at some point we have to decide, do we want people to be safer or do we want cars to be 30 seconds quicker to their destination? And that's the tradeoff. And so, I mean, I think a lot of times it's really hard to get that 30 seconds away from cars, but it could save life, and also not just save a life, but get people out walking and biking because they'll feel safe on these streets. But when your core of your city has Bell and Carroll cutting through it with cars flying through those, it makes it really hard. I mean, whether you're sitting at Bell, if you go over to Armadillo and Cryptozoology and watch cars come around that corner, I mean, you can think you're walking across the street with no one there, and before you know it, if you don't start running, you will get hit by a car. And the same problem can exist on Carroll, too, and again, those are one block off the center of the square. So I don't know, I just think without thinking about slowing down our streets and what that would look like, it's hard to ever really address, like, make these numbers lower, which I think everyone wants, but you have to have tradeoffs at some point. So just thinking about some of those solutions of slowing the streets, like universal design, that's artwork even, you know. I think that's something we proposed at Carroll and Hickory is artwork as a way to kind of draw attention to drivers as you're entering a special area. Don't hit people with your car. I have another thought. So this was my thought was because something happened this past week, and I'm wondering, I know the city already has no riding your bike on the sidewalk on the square and then one block off, but I'm wondering if that needs to be extended. Because even if you are going 10 miles an hour, if you are on a bike and you ride down the sidewalk, you can still get hit. Because they're not always looking for you on your bike. You know, I mean, they might be looking for a pedestrian, but they're not necessarily looking for a bike on a sidewalk. So I'm just throwing this out to Mark, do you have any stats, do you know if those things, if it becomes illegal, does that help at all? In a dense area like the square where traffic is hopefully moving more slowly, you, yes, I think it is safer to have the majority of bicycles off of the sidewalk. But I would say kids under a certain age, I would keep on the sidewalk. And I would say many other areas, you want that sidewalk to be available to people. You know, some of the problems are vehicles backing out of driveways, shared space where you have a lot of pedestrians in that downtown area. I think that's why the square and that one block outside of it is because of the high pedestrian density and the difference in speeds between pedestrians and bicycles. It made sense. And you know, there may be an argument as the -- I don't know how long that's been in place, you know, but as downtown continues to grow and thrive and you get more businesses, more foot traffic, you know, there may be an argument to that. I don't have specific data about sidewalk injuries, but that's a good point. >> Okay. All right. Anybody, anything else from us? I've got one card from someone who wishes to speak. Okay. Jennifer Lane, you can come on up and state your address and let's hear from you. >> Hello, Jennifer Lane, 1526 Willowwood Street. Yeah, I came specifically to talk about the Highland Park Road, but the presentation hasn't actually happened on that, but I'm just as happy to be up here talking about this. >> Okay. Because that one's next. >> Yeah. So that's fine. If you call me, I kind of want to anyway. Some of the more well-known accidents in Denton have been -- have involved people riding on the sidewalks. It really is dangerous. Not just because of the things that were just described, namely backing out cars and high pedestrian density, but also bushes and so forth that -- and drivers can't see that someone's coming. So generally speaking, the bike lanes are, you know, much, much safer. The sharrows have been shown not to be as safe as dedicated bike lanes, and split pathways with bike lanes and pedestrian pathways are also good where you can have them. I really liked hearing about the possibility of citations for deterrence. That's really great. And then, should I go ahead and speak about Highland? Not a whole lot to say, but maybe -- >> We'll have to wait on that. >> -- maybe I'll have your presentation first. >> Yeah, we'll wait until after that, but -- >> I will just go on to use the few minutes that I have left to say that finally after ten years, the yellow lights have been lengthened at certain intersections that the green light was too short to cross on a bicycle. In fact, I filmed one of them on University Drive ten years ago because I was hit there, and I filmed it, and it was less than five seconds to get across when there was a median there, and so the light would change while the person was crossing. And even though my own insurance company, my driver's insurance, informed me that the intersection was mine until I got through, it belongs to the driver, anybody on a vehicle going across, the driver came through nonetheless and did hit me. So that is a really big victory, I think, that between the red light cameras and the bicycle advocacy got that lengthened just enough to enable people to get across. Dallas and Fulton don't have any minimum green at all, so there's no, you know, stand there for 24 hours, I suppose, if there's no car that comes along to enable the light to change or trigger the sensor. So that's -- >> Yeah, we've been working on that. >> Yeah, that's great. >> On both of those. >> Yeah, congratulations on that. That's really good. And in places that I've lived before where they had the Idaho laws, I highly recommend because -- >> We've tried. >> Yeah, I know. I know. I know. Keep trying. Because there's, you know, maybe tweaks and so forth that will fit. I came from Lexington, Kentucky, where they did adopt those, and a former body, you know, 10 years ago was pretty excited because it was another southern city, not Oregon or something, you know, where, you know, you had to think about all that. But the stop in particular, I would just describe it as follows, that if you are on a bicycle and you have to stop, you have to get off and out of the vehicle, it would be the same as if every time a driver pulled up to a light and had to step outside the car. So that's the difference between a yield and a stop. And if the weaker, smaller, slower vehicles can go through first, based on common sense and what they perceive, and then the big 4,000 pounds go and the light changes, it's safer for all concerned. Thanks. >> Okay. And so the -- we're doing 40 next, the Highland, and so I should -- I put you down -- because you do have 38, this item numbered on here. >> Oh, okay. I thought it was the Highland. >> So I'll also do -- should I put you down for 40 also? >> Yeah, I thought that was -- >> Okay. >> I must have been -- >> I gotcha. >> It must have been the number below or -- >> Okay. >> And what we learned about the Idaho stop, right, was that we have to do that at the state level. >> State level. >> So if you have -- >> So write your legislature. >> Write your legislature at the state level. >> Oh, that's a great -- >> Yeah, because we cannot change it at the municipal level. >> You probably could get the state level to allow municipalities to introduce it, because that's how others have in other states. It's not on the state level in Idaho or Kentucky or in Oregon. It's on the municipal level. >> Right. >> So they would simply have to allow cities to choose. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> I guess it's prohibited at this point. All I know is that the state level passed the three-foot passage, and then it was vetoed. So the state was pretty enthusiastic about protecting cyclists, enough to do that, and then it was vetoed by, at the time, Perry. Was it a broader set of laws, policies, that cities can't make their own policy, or was it specific? I couldn't remember. >> I sure would like to see -- >> Because we had a presentation on this where we all wanted it, and they basically told us you have to lobby at the state level. >> Where would I see that presentation, because, you know, you know how it is. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> One can be easily fooled into thinking that you're seeing one thing and you're not. >> April or May. >> Yeah. >> What's in the spring? Yeah. >> I would say go back and really look at that, because they would have to pass an awful lot of laws to make that impossible here. >> Yeah. >> Well, they've passed some. I know that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> They've taken away, I mean, we know in debt and -- >> Yeah. >> Sort of the thing of overturning local control type of laws? >> Local control, yeah. >> Mm-hmm. >> Yes. >> Mm-hmm. >> That's really interesting. >> Yeah. >> Mm-hmm. Okay. Thank you. >> Connected really is a stupid state, and I'm on record. >> All right. Thank you. All right. Does anybody else have anything to discuss on this item? 038. Okay. That brings us to TSC 19-040, which is to receive a report, hold a discussion, and provide direction to staff regarding the Highland Street Protected Bike Lane Demonstration Project. >> Good evening again. Mark Oliphant, Bicycle and Pedestrian Coordinator for the city. So we're going to talk about the Highland Street Protected Bike Lane. Highland Street is a one-way street. It's the section that we're discussing tonight is just south of UNT. It actually goes through the campus. Here's an overview map for you if you look right in the middle there. It's the library mall. I think the library is this one. And it's about five to six blocks, depending how you measure it, currently, where there is a contraflow bike lane. So vehicular traffic is going from your left to your right, eastbound, but on the north side there is a buffered bike lane that allows bicycles to go the opposite direction. Bicycles that wish to go the same direction as traffic use the right side lane currently. So here is some pictures of this. These are the two on the left are file photos that I have in my files and these predate me. On the right, this is the official Google Maps street view picture, and you can see that this is blocked. Basically what happens is this is a very popular pickup and drop-off point for students because it's right next to the libraries. And vehicles come up. They use the international parking permit, which is your hazards, throw those on and block it. Here is, there's actually an Instagram account that is entirely dedicated to this problem. This is the address for it up here on the right, Highland_st_parking_lane, which chronicles this. We've seen videos of this as well. So this is a well-documented problem and something that we would like to see addressed, has been brought up. And we did a fair amount of work towards changing this about six months ago, but it is stalled currently and we'll discuss that and why. So this, this is the proposed change. This is a, not an engineer's rendering, not to scale, but it is designed to demonstrate what we are proposing here. So north is to your right. Your vehicular traffic will continue in that same eastbound direction. So imagine the library is over here on the right side. And so what we are proposing is instead of having just the one contraflow bicycle lane is that we expand that area. So we have two six foot lanes, one contraflow, which will be against the curb. That will be, you know, the American way of driving. So drive on the right side, bicycles will be approaching each other in the correct way. And the bicycles going in the same direction as the vehicular traffic will be closest to the vehicular traffic, which is safer. We'll still have a two foot buffer proposed. Now we, as with many good ideas, this kind of broke down in negotiating the details, I would say. So we met a couple times with UNT leadership. I was not at all of those meetings, but really two things happened. So one was there was concern about the lanes looking overly cluttered by having what we proposed as the physical barrier is these plastic delineator posts, reflective 36 inches to four feet tall. And ideally we would like to have them every 20 feet, maybe even every 15, because that way it's much more difficult for cars to weave their way against the curb into the bicycle lanes. The request most recently from the people we've been working with at UNT was for a 40 foot interval because they didn't like the way that this would sort of clutter up the visual appeal of the campus. I don't think, well, I don't think that's sufficient. Now maybe a miracle will happen or something, but with delineator posts 40 feet apart I think we're still going to have plenty of vehicles just pulling over real quick to drop off or pick up or whatever it's going to be. And then on the opposite side there would, depending on the block face, either a loading zone or potentially some parallel parking available and we would still have two lanes there. So then the other issue is in talking with UNT we had proposed this 50/50 cost sharing estimate and UNT said, well, at the time we have $10,000 ready to do this. But once we calculated, crunched the numbers a little further, it looked like it would be more like $40,000 to change all of the striping. And so we just never got back together on meeting in the middle somehow on that. So I wish I could say there was something else positive happening. But as of right now this is stalled and maybe it just needs a nudge. When you say UNT, who do these negotiations take place? The most recent ones happened far above my level. I think it was like a vice president for facilities or something like that. I can track down, but it definitely happened, I wasn't even invited to that meeting when it was discussed. I was just informed of what came out of it. Hey. Who for the city was at that meeting? I think it was pre-TAM and it was a number of months ago. Is that a traffic enforcement thing, too? Yeah, there have been. So can we, so can UNT get their -- UNT has -- I don't know if they're calling the police. Yeah, like I don't know what you call it, a sting operator, not a staffer, a hot enforcement or they would, you know -- You know, if they can be ticketed for it, it's the same thing as if you're in the city. And they do that. And, you know, if they're blocking a bike line, they're blocking a -- if they're not supposed to do it, and the police seat, if I do it, the police seat means they're going to take it. I understand you're a student, but if it's a safety thing, and you there, and the police are there, well, again, they should bear the brunt of doing what they're not supposed to do. I have to do it. Everybody else has to do it. So if they're parking in a bike lane, we can widen it out, but then they're just going to say, "Hey, I'm just going to stop in the first bike lane. I didn't go all the way through the curb." You know what I mean? But you start hitting the student where they can't get no piece of, you know, whatever they spend their money on, and they're going to sink in and say, "Hey, we can't do this." You know, and if we put up those cones, you can weave in and weave -- trust me, those little cones, man, you can get in and out real fast. If you put them 40 feet away, they can -- Right. It'll just become a game. It'll become -- Yeah, you know. Those little cones. What do you call those courses? Obstacle course. But if we do our part to say, "Okay, we're going to do this," then we need an enforcement to say, "If we catch you, then you will get a ticket, and you will have to pay, and you do that to 50 or 60 students that are going to get around the campus," I can almost guarantee you that stuff. Yeah, that -- it needs to be a two-pronged approach, absolutely. I know there have been some focused operations where they have given a number of tickets. I mean, one issue with universities is the population turns over at least every year, and then often each semester, you get turnover. So you have to do continuous education with that. And so part of our thought with this is, you know, one way to get people to obey the speed limit is to introduce -- or obey traffic laws is to introduce some sort of a physical element that essentially forces them to do so, and then, you know, you're a sleeping policeman, if you will. And that is what we were trying for here. That's what we were trying for, but I agree it would be great to see some more enforcement. Yeah. I'd like to say, for the record, that I think people who cycle, their lives are more important than the beautification of the campus. That's a good way to -- And it looks fine. It looks fine. Yeah. It's not even cluttering. It looks totally fine. Big cities all over have it, and no one ever complains about it or anything. But yeah, and if you don't -- so I work right on this strip, and I mean, just -- I mean, it shows it there, but if you are going north on this and cars are in the way, you have to go into oncoming traffic. You have to veer on a bicycle into oncoming traffic. So anyways, I usually just sit in front of the cars and beep at them with my imaginary horn until they move. But this is such an easy call, and it's disappointing, I think, because we were told we were finally getting a protected bike lane, and I was so excited, and it's falling apart. So if there's anything I can do, I'd like to rally the UNT community, because I don't know if this represents what the pedestrians and bikers on that campus feel. But it's -- as the pictures show, it's been a problem for a long time, and the only way to solve it is to make it so you really can't get in and out of those lanes. Well, in the last semester at UNT, they did start doing through the Traffic Services Department a monthly bicycle working group, and faculty and students have been invited. I am quite certain that's going to start up again with the new semester. And so this would be a good topic to bring to that, something I attend. And anyone out there affiliated with UNT can contact me to find out about it. It has to be some determined, if we do what's proposed, it still has to be some determined for -- regardless if they're going to be there next year or the year before, there has to be a standing thing that if you -- if we can't you doing this after us and UNT have worked together to make things safer, if we can't you doing this, it has to be some kind of you know, to where, hey, you know, we're making it safe, but if you're not going to follow the safety rules that we're putting in place, right now what's the determent of them just to keep on doing it, you know, and because of the fact, you know. A lot of the kids don't know. You know, they get to campus, they don't know any better. Some of them have never seen a bike lane before when they get to UNT. And so, I mean, this is like -- you know, that's why we should just solve it by rebuilding, putting the posts up. Yeah. Because we can solve everything, right, instead of having to, you know, train everyone on how to, you know, address that situation. Have a police officer out there all the time just put up a deterrent and move on. And they -- again, they just don't -- you know, half the time I ride up to them and like, hey, you need to move out of this lane. They like -- or have no clue what's happening. Yeah. You know, they don't know. They don't know what it looks like. And so, if we could just -- I just -- if there's anything we can do, I would love to know as a UNT faculty member, you know, who's on that campus, what we can do to advocate within the university to get this flowing again, because it was promising. Yeah. Yeah. Is there -- if their problem is the aesthetics of the whole thing, what about some bolt-down curbs or concrete that UNT could paint green and white? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. They could put some school spirit. Yeah. Put a needle on it. They'll probably put -- you put it up. Put a needle on it. Right. You know. Just put a bird on it. It's fine. Yeah. Or planters or something. Yeah. Or, you know, have some art students work on it. Yeah. Yeah. Someone runs into it. It'll play the school song real loud. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Incentive. Yeah. Yeah. I'm even wondering why Highland has to have two traffic lanes. You know, Avenue C is down to, you know, one traffic lane per direction. Belch is going to undergrow a road diet, and it will be also right down to one lane each way. That's the plan. And then why in the world does Highland, as an interiors road, need to be -- have two traffic lanes? And it generally does not have that much traffic. It doesn't. And it shouldn't. Yeah. It's the main detour for the buses. A detour, though. Or it's our main detour for Discovery Park, a couple other buses, until there's construction on Hickory. Okay. The other point I want to make is your delineators, they should be the same ones that you're going to put on Hickory to make it consistent. We've already had that conversation several times about taking the parking off and, you know, putting up the delineators, or a coffee. Yeah. Yeah. And to make it consistent throughout the small area, they ought to be the same. You're saying the same posts? Yeah. The same. Yes. I agree. I think it's a great idea. Yeah. And we are planning for them to be much closer together on Hickory. It's a little hard to remember because it was a number of months ago, but I think there were two things discussed about having both lanes there. One of them may have had to do with fire apparatus accessing the area. There's certain width requirements about that, but I don't recall exactly. It's a good question, again, I seem to remember it came up, but I can't recall what the justification was for continuing to have both lanes. Well, I'm just curious because it shouldn't be a, I mean, if we want to, as we remove parking from the center of campus, you know, which is a stated goal, we will also be minimizing traffic in the center of campus, and so the need for the two should minimize. I have a card, and our people have left. They did not wish to speak, but I have a card that, it seems, a tandem card with Tran Templeton. Also speaking with Christopher Moffitt, okay, address 321 West Hickory Street, Denton, Texas. The comment, it was a written comment, it would be negligent, a negligent move for UNT and the city of Denton not to do what it possibly can to protect the safety of bike riders in around UNT campus. Bike riders comprise of faculty, community members, and most importantly, students who may not own cars or may not be able to afford the exorbitant cost to commute to and park on campus. We are two faculty members who bike to UNT because it is, one, more affordable than parking on campus, two, better for the environment, and three, allows us to be healthier. In fact, one reason we moved from New York City to Denton instead of a larger city was to be able to move about more easily without the environmental burdens of automobiles. Denton should be able to make the moves necessary to allow for bikes more easily and to safely navigate the city. So that was a comment on this item and anything else. Clay? Is there any renegotiations or are we going back to them for anything? Nothing's scheduled at the moment. It's certainly within the realm of the possible. I know there are also some asks from UNT to the city for other infrastructure. And so there may be the possibility to sort of, I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine, kind of deal. So some horse trading to do. Yeah, but I do think the first, I will bring this up as the topic in our first UNT bicycle, what's the, I can't remember the formal name of it, but the bicycle steering group that meets monthly. I'll bring it up. Can we get that, can you send us that information for that? Yeah, yeah. And then if you could send us any contact information for the people who would be the best to contact on this issue, both at UNT and the city. Okay. Appreciate that. Thank you so much. Okay, anybody else have anything on this issue? All right, in that case, thank you, Mark. That brings us to TSC 19-041, which is to receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the treatment of uncontrolled intersections within the city of Denton. Good evening, Brian Yahn, city traffic engineer and your staff liaison. So I want to talk a little bit about uncontrolled intersections, and the first step is to define an uncontrolled intersection. So an uncontrolled intersection is anything, any intersection that doesn't have a sign or pavement markings to designate who has the right of way, and we have a lot of these in town. So you have three-way intersections, you have four-way intersections that don't have a stop sign, a yield sign, a stop bar, a center line. It's just two roads of the same size that meet. So next question is, who has the right of way, and the state defines who has the right of way, and you can read this, but basically, in a nutshell, it's whoever gets there first. And if you get there at the same time, it's the person to the right, with the exception of if you're at a T-intersection, then the person on the street that ends never has the right of way. Always has to yield to the major street that's through. Same thing. So the city of Denton, so what's our current policy? And this is the ordinance perspective, and it says that I have the ability to determine that any intersection in the city should or can be stop controlled. Now, that can be side street stop or always stop, and once I determine it's going to be a stop control and which street's going to stop, I have to erect signs and post that so people can visually see it. And then it goes on to say who has the right of way, which basically is the same as what the state of Texas has identified. So to further that, the city has taken the stance, and I don't know when this started, but it's been a while because we've actually gone through a program of removing stop signs at certain intersections where we didn't think that they needed to have stop control or right of way designation. But the city's policy is not to install stop signs unless we have crash history or if one of the streets has significantly higher traffic volume or there's some sight distance issues. So we've got some thresholds that we have to meet relative to traffic volume, but basically our knee-jerk reaction is, well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and we don't need a stop sign. Personal opinion, this leads to driver confusion and crash experience. So we've got several requests on the table before I got here and since I arrived, people requesting stop signs at tees or some kind of stop control at four-way intersections that don't have anything. So what we are looking for, and this is kind of an informational, we have a staff recommendation, we have a plan moving forward, what I'd like to do today is tell you what that is. And if you want to discuss that, we can, and if you want to dig in further, we can bring it back at a later date and talk further. I just wanted to kind of broach the subject. If you'll remember, let me step back a little bit. And again, an opportune, we had the discussion earlier today about Dutchess, and we didn't bring that to you because ordinance already said if you can't provide 10 feet of travel in each direction with on-street parking, you can't have on-street parking. So we brought an informational item to you that says look, if the ordinance already says that we have the right to do this, we're going to do this, if we take action, we're going to bring it to you as an informational item, which is what we did tonight for Dutchess, and this is what we're proposing here. The ordinance already gives us the ability to designate stop control, whether it be side street stop, or two-way stop, or a four-way stop, and move forward through the installation of signs and enacting that. So I'm here to tell you, we're going to do that. We're going to start installing stop signs at uncontrolled intersections to designate who has the right of way. Because as a driver, you're driving along and you're passing intersection after intersection and you don't have a stop sign, why would you think that you need to stop and yield to somebody who's crossing? Most likely you're going to go, you idiot, didn't you see me coming? I don't have a stop sign, I don't have to yield. So what we're trying to do is just give drivers visual cue. If you're on the lower, and this is our typical approach, is going to be on the lower volume street or the one that has the least reach, as we call it, is going to get the stop. And in certain cases, if we have sight distance, we can reverse that or place an all-way stop, but we're really going to try and just dedicate or designate right of way to one street or the other. So there's no confusion. If you don't see a stop sign, you don't have to stop. If you do, you have to stop. So moving forward, we will be installing stop signs on the lesser of the two on a four-way or and we will also begin installing, reinstalling, perhaps again, we've had a policy 20 years ago that we installed these on T's and then we had an era where we started to remove them and now we're, you know, the pendulum's swinging the other way. This is my fourth city and I've installed stop signs on T's and all four of them. Just because the law says you have to stop doesn't mean people remember that or that they actually stop. And it's a lot easier for a citation to be issued if there's a sign that says stop than if there's not because a lot of police are hesitant to issue a citation if there's no sign supporting it. If the no parking signs are too far apart, you can't see them. I parked right here. I can't see it. No parking sign. They won't issue that citation. If there's no stop sign, there's really, you know, some cases there may not be a citation to issue. If you're on a four-way intersection and you have a crash, well, who's at fault? Well, the police officer doesn't know because he wasn't there. And neither has a stop sign. So it's a little bit, again, leads to that driver confusion. We're just trying to establish some consistency, which is another thing. We have uncontrolled intersections in one subdivision. The subdivision next to it, all the side streets have stops. We don't have any uncontrolled. So we're trying to bring that element of consistency into the driver expectations and what they see on a day-to-day basis. If you're in an area that you're not familiar with, it really helps to have some kind of guidance on, hey, I'm coming up to a street. I need to stop because there's a stop sign because they're not going to stop. It's a major street or it carries more traffic or it's faster or whatever reason. But that's why we're doing what we're doing. So with that, some discussion. And if you want to change that, then we can bring that back because we really didn't give you an opportunity because this is one of those things where the ordinance already gives us the ability to do this. And if we don't want to do, if we want to change that, then we might have to actually go through an ordinance modification. So questions or discussion? This kind of goes back to what I asked some time ago about if you already have the authority to do it. Why don't you just do it? Thank you for bringing the information to us. I would request that as you get these done, you present these to us also so we know what's going on. And to follow up on that, what notice will be given to citizens in those neighborhoods? So right now, the way we plan to take this down, and we've actually, I think we probably already scheduled one. We had a hot intersection that came through at 14 yet Dogwood. And I think we may have already put up the side street stop. But we're going to take these down subdivision at a time. So we're not going to do onesie twosie. If we're going to go in and put, and I've already got my team looking at the rest of that neighborhood, we're going to approach the neighborhood as a whole, either flyers or door hangers or something to indicate that this is coming to your community. Every intersection that isn't controlled will be, either whether it be a T or in our four-way. You're going to see stop signs. And we'll have a layout of where we're going to put them. We're not asking for permission. It's just notification because this is a safety issue. So anything that's life safety typically will take action based on engineering judgment. And if we have some severe pushback, we can tweak. But we're not really asking for permission to install the stop signs. So we're planning on taking it out, subdivision at a time, neighborhood at a time. So we may do 20, we may do 10, we may do 40. But that's how we're going to take them down. And it's just going to be as budget allows. We've got a new fiscal year coming up. So that's good. Starting October 1, we're going to start looking at how we're going to approach and where we're going to start and how we're going to proceed. Yeah, I just think it's appropriate to let the citizens know because everybody gets into a habit. Sure. And that habit is driving down and where did that sign come from? Yeah, I've been driving this road for 20 years and I've never had to stop. Exactly. So I think we owe it to them. Yeah. Totally. I understand and agree. Yeah. Will you need to be doing any traffic flow studies on any of these intersections? We'll be doing some data collection. Now some of it's a little bit easier, obviously the T's, those are easy. And some of them where we have a cross street that goes two blocks in each direction versus a cross street that goes 12 blocks in each direction, we know which one is the major. And unless we have some site distance limitations or some other really strong motivation to reverse it, we're going to go with the one that makes the most sense. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, you're preaching to the choir with this one, so we like that. Okay. Thank you. All right. And that brings us to TSC 19-042, which is to receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the bond committee ballot proposal package inclusions. Okay. So this one I've got to actually go. Because I didn't load it. This is the one on the bond where we've got some opportunities and some exciting news. Okay, I'm just going to leave it like this for now. Okay. So is everybody familiar with the special, what is this, special citizens bond committee? Okay. So this was established to vet from a citizen standpoint, the propositions for the upcoming 2019 bond, the November election, and what elements would be included. We've got the three. We have public safety, major roadway, which includes some local streets, parks and open space and two other categories that are really, I think, very pertinent to us in that sidewalks and street lights. And so this is with one modification that I'll explain in a minute. This is the proposition that's moving forward, or this is the bond package that's moving forward. Proposition one is public safety. So we've got the renovation of the PD facility, there's a substation, and then fire station eight has been subsequently been replaced. They're going to fund that in another way because it's ready to go faster than this bond election. They put the PD firing range in there. What's most important to us is prop two and that's, I can't see that. We've got Bonnie Bray, Hickory and Ryan, as you can't see this right in here that says Ryan Road, that are some major reconstruction projects and realignments. And then we've got the street rehab, which is really your neighborhood street program. And then street lights and sidewalks. So Bonnie Bray, this is phase five, six and seven, which is the areas north towards where the new high school is going in, and these are, again, they're funding $27 million. The cost is $111 million, this is that we're planning on leveraging these funds with COG to get the project completed. Hickory Creek, this is another one that's been around for a while, I guess, and has moved forward very, very quickly. Yes. Can I ask you a question about the previous Bonnie Bray? Yeah. So it's widening the street. Is there, what's being done for, is it sidewalks and I'm guessing there's no bike considerations here? I believe on Bonnie Bray we're putting side paths. So typically on our, the approach that the city has taken is when you've got a high volume or high speed roadway, four to six lanes wide, on street facility is really not the best way to go. The hardcore riders are going to ride where they want to ride, but the general public really isn't comfortable and probably isn't safe riding on street. We'd rather have them in a shared path. This goes back to the argument about sharing sidewalks and bicycles, but if you make them 10 to 12 feet wide, you should have adequate room to stripe a bike lane and sidewalk. So the argument is, in that case, if you look at collisions, the collision of a cyclist in a car has a pretty sure outcome. Somebody's going to get seriously injured or die and if you have a crash between a pedestrian and a cyclist, you probably have a pretty sure outcome that somebody might get hurt, but probably nobody's going to die. I don't know of one fatality, and that was on White Rock Lake in Dallas, where the cyclists go about 60 miles an hour, and so typically it's a hazard exposure. The exposure is less between cyclists and pedestrians than it is between cyclists and vehicles. It just is. And so if we'd rather have the cyclists, again, they're still legally able, cyclists are legally able to ride in the street, but we want to provide that alternative for the non-aggressive cyclist or the recreational cyclist. Do we know, is that for sure built into the plan? I'd have to go back and look. This thing is a moving target, but my understanding is that it's been the idea, the concept all along. The alignment keeps moving, too, so that's always interesting. The picture here makes it look that way, that four-lane, because it's got a bike lane, two cars, and a pedestrian, is that actually representative? I'd have to go back. These are not my slides, so I'm borrowing this, but the last I heard was we were going to go with an off-street facility for Bonnie Brake. No. No bike lanes. No. The last cross-section I saw, engineering designs, was four lanes of traffic and then the wide sidewalks, so. Yeah, that can't be Bonnie Brake, because there's not 40-foot setbacks for those buildings, but the one thing that's really important here is how we connect what's the whole new area with the Alamo draft house and everything, because even though that's been built with essentially more suburban design, which I think was a huge oversight, especially since they're building a lot of housing, it's probably predictable that some UNT students are going to live in those brand-new apartments there and find their way. It's only about a mile and a half to campus, so I'm guessing not every one of them is going to do a car, so I think having those connected, in a way, and we're off to a bad start with the design of that whole development, but thinking how do we make a throughway for cyclists and pedestrians, I think if we can keep an eye on that, that could potentially prevent us having to do what we've been doing, is trying to make up 50 years of bad design. So I know we've talked about the mobility plan update, but that's a key component, is the bicycle connectivity, and it's really, really, it's hand in glove with, you know, it's really all modes. It's pedestrian, it's cyclists, it's transit, it's vehicles. We're really pushing for a more connected network. Yeah. I just, I don't know why the buildings were designed that way. I wish we could have gone back to that. I mean, Alamo Drafthouse, there's no sidewalks anywhere. You just have to walk through. So if you're going to-- It's all just a giant parking lot. Which, yeah, just a giant parking lot with apartments, and it just like blows the mind, because we know this stuff, and it just keeps happening anyway, so. But I know as a, I don't have a car, if anyone knows. I ride my bike everywhere, so it's all I experience. I've wanted to go there, but I've not, even me, I'm a pretty brave biker. I've felt like that's too big of an adventure even for me to make my way over to Alamo on a bike. So I hope that this fixes that. That'd be great. Right. Thank you. Yeah. And that goes back to the accident. You got some businesses, that's right off of 35, restaurants, Alamo Drafthouse, and another way to get there, if you're walking or biking, is to ride down 35, if you're on a service road or not. So that can be where it is, somebody's trying to get somewhere, where there is no bike path, walk path, sidewalk, on the side of 35, to these businesses, that you come in contact with other vehicles. What you're saying goes all the way back to the accident that I grabbed that we showed. So a little bit of history, I worked for the city of Carrollton in the '90s, and TechStat would not allow us to build a sidewalk on their furniture. Not only would they not do it themselves, they would not let us do it. So we've had a full 180 from TechStat, and I applaud them for that, it's about time of proactively including sidewalks in their projects. We've got a lot of projects on 35, that would be a good presentation for this group, but where sidewalks are actually incorporated, and they're wider, they're 8 to 10 foot sidewalks. So we're moving in the right direction, again, as Mark said, we simply can't do everything at once. So we're trying to prioritize and work with our funding partners like TechStat and COG to identify the pots of money, and it's on us to prioritize a lot of the stuff that's really in the city purviews. And so that's an exercise that we'll be undertaking. Okay, so Hickory Creek, this has been pushed forward, there was a fatality I think earlier this year, and so it got a lot of traction. The proposal now is to take it all the way to 35 with design, and then we're gonna construct phase one from 2499 to 1830 as either a three lane section or as a four lane divided section. So the amount of funding, I think they're putting 34 million dollars in, that'll get us a three lane section. If we can partner with the COG and leverage those funds to get the additional 160 million or the 140 million, then we can take it all the way to 35. So this is a key project to provide some needed mobility with bicycle, again, this is one that'll have a side path, not an on street facility, to get some key mobility east-west in the southern part of town. So again, moving forward, we've got, this'll be again on the 19 bond election in November for 34 million, but we've already had discussions with COG on finding where we can leverage that to cover the rest of the cost. So this is the street. Question. Yes. When you, is the bridge included in that? Yes. So the original plan, if we're stuck with the 34 million dollars, then we're gonna do a three lane bridge, and we'll do our three lane roadway. If we get the additional money, then we'll do six lane, we'll do two three lane bridges or one six lane bridge, but we'll probably only build four lanes of roadway. With the expansion, the bridges are the expensive piece. We'll already have the limitations, the hard part done. If we ever need to expand the roadway to six lanes, the bridges won't have to be reconstructed. So if it's just the city funding, the 34, then you'll see a three lane roadway with a single three lane bridge. If it's a leverage project where we get COG money or tech stock funding, then we'll see larger bridges, but maybe only a four lane roadway. We'll make sure you build it high enough so it doesn't flood. Will do. So the neighborhood street program, they have, they looked at two different approaches, they're doing a hybrid where they're looking at the lowest OCI and then at a grouping so that you find kind of a heat map of your lowest OCI, and then you pick a couple of those groupings and then you do the neighborhoods around them so that you're not constructing these lowest, and then next year you're constructing the next lowest, which just happened to be adjacent to those. So you try to get all that pain of construction done in one time, you don't have to come back for 20, 30 years, get your street and your sewer and your water all done at one time. So we're trying to partner with our city, other city partners, the storm water and the water and wastewater groups. If we're going to go in and rebuild these streets, let's make sure that everything under them is done and then we don't have to come back. So it's kind of, rather than do the shotgun, which is the lowest, the worst streets in town and they're everywhere, we're going to say, "Okay, we're going to take the lowest, we've got a good grouping here and a good grouping here and a good grouping here and we're going to build on those groupings and extend that a little bit so that we can cover entire neighborhoods versus just the lowest OCI streets." So OCI, what's OCI? It's basically a street quality index and I forget the acronym because I use a different one in Fort Worth, but it's a, does anybody know? Okay. It's basically, it's a pavement quality index and do you have a lot of failures? Is it heaving? Is it washboard? It's really the quality of the pavement and it's expected life. So typically if you've got, I think 20 or lower is what we're shooting for out of 100. So you get a 20 out of 100, it's probably in pretty bad shape and then we'll find those groupings and that's kind of what this heat map show, oh sorry, that's the wrong one. We'll find those groupings and build larger projects around them to use up the entire amount of funding. Overall condition index. See, I told you it's a quality pavement quality index. Now this is another, this is one that's really pertinent to this group and that sidewalks. So right now they're proposing $12 million, focusing on safe route to school and I would and I've talked with Todd, I'd like to take part of this and partner with his neighborhood rehab because as part of his neighborhood rehab, when he rebuilds the street, they're not putting in sidewalks and they're not repairing sidewalks and I'd like the opportunity. If we're really going to go in and not touch it again for 20 years, we have a lot of neighborhoods and I would venture to guess that if they've got a low overall index, quality index, they probably were built in an era when we didn't require sidewalks or the sidewalks are haphazard or in bad repair. So I'd like to talk to our capital projects group about blending some of that sidewalk money into those street programs as well. I think that makes a lot of sense. So again, $12 million in city funding through NCTCOG and TxDOT call for projects relative to safe route to school, we think we can bump that up to 18 to 20. It takes that much. We did seven schools in Fort Worth with our 2018 bond and it's roughly one to $1.2 million per school and that's only going out of quarter mile. If you're focusing on neighborhoods that don't have sidewalk, a sidewalk is terribly expensive. It just is. I was going to say that actually all the elementary schools in Denton are Title I. So you might be able to get some community development block grant money with that as well. We're looking at some CDBG sidewalk money for other projects, but yes we will look for partnering and leveraging there. And so just FYI, the safe route to school only applies to elementary and middle. So high schools are not eligible for SRTS funding. So that's on us and that's why we can't use all of this for safe route money. We've got to reserve some for just general sidewalk needs, ADA compliance issues, and I hope some neighborhood rehab elements. Can I ask a question on that? Sure. So obviously you just answered my question about Geyer. I know they're doing a lot of construction out there on that road right now. I mean I assume that they're putting in sidewalk with that construction? As far as I know, yes they are. So my understanding, and again I've been here two months now, and this is I think typical, but any new project, if it's new construction or widening, we will be including pad and bike facilities. And relative to the road diet question earlier, when we do repaving or resurfacing, where we end up after the first phase where the street crews come through, where the contractor comes through and we've got this blank canvas, we're always looking for opportunities to incorporate bike facilities, crosswalk facilities, more bike and ped elements, even if it means losing a general purpose traveling. So the example of Highland is a good one. If we were repaving that, then we would look at okay, what is really the traffic need and what are the ped and bike needs, and maybe we do have some, I know this is maybe taboo in some places, but we reintroduce on-street parking, and it's short-term, it's not really for students, it's one hour, two hours, turnovers for the businesses or the pick-up and drop-off or I just need to run in and do something, but if you're removing a lot of your inner campus parking, there may be an increased need for some high turnover parking spaces. So that's, again, any time we look at repaving where we've got a blank canvas at the end of the day, we're always looking for opportunities to right-size that, whether it be adding bike lanes or narrowing travel lanes, that type of thing. So street lighting, we've got, so DME's got a $4 million grant or $5 million grant, they've got funds right now, and we're proposing an additional seven for some street lighting. This is primarily focused on University Drive, but we're also gonna look at, I'm hoping that we have some cost savings in here because we're looking at some residential infill. Again, going back with those neighborhood street projects, it's just, it's typical wherever you've got streets that are 30, 40 years old, they're in bad shape, they're probably in neighborhoods that don't have sidewalks, that have really poor lighting, and so we'd like to take some of this money and maybe fold that into at least a pilot project where we show what we, you know, what benefits can be gained by putting back in some low-level or some taller street lights. I'd like to bring some pedestrian lighting into some of these neighborhoods. I think that's a key, so that's kind of where we're headed with the bond. Pedestrian lighting is, I think, huge. One of my big complaints is the lighting that is so far in the sky that, really, what's it for? Right. And it doesn't contribute to the Dark Skies program, which I know that, you know, Clay will also back me up on the importance of dark skies. So the, and I've only been in one meeting, but the DME project where they're buying a smart system, which you'll be able to dim and control every fixture in town, basically, dimmable LEDs and, again, the right, you know, no blue light, and so, again, working towards the Dark Sky Initiative requirements. So that's coming. I mean, we're headed that way, and your statement about the lights is so high. Specifically, it's above the tree line, so it's, you're in shadow, you know, if you're on the sidewalk. So we're trying to bring some of that down. We're even looking at some dual-function uprights where you've got the street light towards the street, and then you've got a pad light on the backside for the sidewalk. So you've got only one pole, but two fixtures. That'd be nice, yeah. One of the last projects is Ryan Road. Now, this was to be a four-lane divided facility, but with the inclusion of the Hickory Creek extension all the way to 35, the consultants that we hired have indicated that we probably don't need to take this. So there was going to be an extension across this floodplain to tie into vintage, and that would be a very expensive crossing because it's all, it would be almost all structured. And so with the onset or the inclusion of the Hickory Creek project on the 2019 bond, this is going to, Ryan Road's going to be downsized, and what we're looking at now is a three-lane section with the side paths at least on one side, if not both. So we're moving forward with that as well. Again, the funding is limited, it's $4 million, but we've got some development partners that are coming in. There's a lot of activity on Ryan right now. We'll be taking their impact fee money, either augmenting or allowing them to build portions of that three-lane section. So when you say side paths, do you mean sidewalks? Well, it's the 10- to 12-foot sidewalk. So it's a shared path for cyclists and pedestrians. So this is going to go to council tomorrow for, I guess, kind of finalizing. They had a work session last week where they talked about all the different propositions, and that's when they switched the firing range with the fire station. And then I guess they're going to call the election in August, and then it's set for November 5th. And so we're all fingers crossed hoping this passes. It's got a lot of support. We've got a really, really good chance. They did break out one of the other changes. I'm not sure that it really is terribly pertinent, but they pulled the public art piece out to its own proposition, and the park open space acquisition, land acquisition, is its own proposition. So they pulled that, so it was a combination into two individual props. Again, I think the thinking was so they could use the public art money everywhere and not just in a park. So any questions? All right, hearing none, I yield. Thank you. You're welcome. All right. That brings us to TSC 19-043, y'all, which is to receive nominations and hold an election for a new chair of the Traffic Safety Commission, and if necessary, receive nominations and hold an election for a new vice chair of the Traffic Safety Commission. And Trailands for Deputy City Attorney, I'm sorry, this item actually needs to be pulled. It's not appropriate to... Here our handbook for the board's commissions and other committees is that the election officers is supposed to occur after the appointment of the new members, and that is set to happen tomorrow night at council. So this will need to be pulled and placed on your next agenda. Y'all have time to campaign now. All right. Thank you, Trailands. All right. And that then gets us to TSC 19-044, staff reports, street construction report, and the matrix. Okay. Well, I don't know why I opened it twice, but... Okay. If you've had a chance to look at this, I'm just going to ask you if you have any questions. Most of these projects are proceeding on schedule, and so it's hard for me to see this. Those highlighted in yellow are Body Bray and Brinker. So I will give you an update on Brinker because probably a lot of you are anxious to see that open, and that is going to be open probably by the end of September, and it's pending the relocation or the construction of the temporary ramp from 35 to its ultimate location. So hopefully by between now and the end of September, the textile will get the ramp removed, we'll put a signal there at Brinker and the frontage roads, and we'll open that access point while 288 is still under construction because I know that's a real bottleneck right now, we've changed it to a single left turn, and had some issues with larger vehicles going through there, but by the end of September, we've been told that we should have some extra capacity there on 35. I got a question. Sure. Going to be letting a lot of contracts for new construction and roads and all that. We've got a penalty clause, are you putting it in? I'm not the right person to ask, that would be Todd asked his question. I can find out and come back with those penalty clauses. I know that we have talked about whether it be dollars or days, I mean, whether there be just penalties or there be incentives as well, but I'm not sure on the stuff that's moving forward or that's going to be let in the next couple of months, what those contracts look like. I noticed you don't publish change orders. Well it depends on I guess the magnitude of the change order, so I don't know. I don't have a whole lot of involvement once the projects are designed and let, I don't know. I can find out and come back with those answers, and why we don't, and if there's a threshold at which point we do advertise the change order. Any other questions? So Hickory is going to be done by the start of school? Is that the? Yes, 2024. So the, just as in general, the bond election will be held in November of '19. Those funds probably won't be available until late '20 or mid '20 just because of bonding capacity and the processes that have to be established and completed. But we are currently in design so I think the schedule, in fact, no they took the estimates off. There was a time when they were putting on some date estimates and I think they, in the spirit of honesty, taking those off, but the stuff they're working on right now, just between what is it, Hickory and Avenue B? Oh, I'm sorry. I was thinking of you. No, it's okay. I'm curious about that too. I always ask. That's been ongoing. I believe the Hickory Street project is on schedule and should be. I thought that I had read that it has been delayed somewhat by an increased sidewalk build. Is that true? I read that, I thought I read that in the newspaper, that the south side of the street is going to get some additional improvements in lighting and sidewalks. In what stretch? Right in front of the auditorium building, you know, that stretch in there. But that may have been a couple weeks ago. Yeah, I think we're still on target for completion either late this month or early next. So we're still on that, it says August 19th, but I think it's probably going to slide a little bit. And then the other projects would get funded in upcoming, you said, and then would start, the bike lane construction would start for Hickory, when would that start? Which for the one that just recently passed, the one that went back through council, the new option on where they're moving the parking over to somewhere that won't benefit the businesses that want it. Do you have a better time, I don't know about a good time frame on that one. So, I haven't heard of a specific date on that. Any other questions on the street construction? Okay, let's see that matrix. Let's see that matrix. So one of the items that we talked about last time, and I'm going to maybe take this out of order, was the do not enter transit vehicles only off of Hickory into the transit center. So we've looked at that, we've observed it, I've observed it personally, and I saw a lot of violations and they were not confused at all about what they were doing. And so what staff is going to do is we're going to increase the size of the do not enter signs and refresh some of the markings. We've done just about everything we can and we're supposed to do there, and we're going to ask for some increased enforcement from PD there right across the street. So it's a driver behavior and we just need to teach them through citations and better signage or larger signage, I'm not sure which, that activity is not acceptable. So there's not a, there's no visibility issue, you can see all the indications, you can see all the signs, you can see the markings, it says transit vehicles only, and they choose to do it because it's easy, they don't get, there's no penalty. So until there's a penalty for something, people will take that shortest path. It's the same like the bike lanes on Highland, you know, until there's a penalty. It's quick and easy and it's worth the gamble of they're not going to catch me, they're not here right now, I'll just be here for a second and then I'll be gone and they're typically successful. So that particular one, we'll be moving forward with some upgrades and we'll bring you, the next time we'll bring you, if we get it completed by then, we'll bring you some pictures of what we've done. Which one is that one? Is that the first one? Ten. Ten. Oh, okay. Thank you. It's the, yeah. So the other one that we talked about last time bringing forward is the Alice University intersection. And about some additional lighting and some sidewalk ped issues crossing, we've got an unusual set of sidewalks there where that northwest corner has nothing and the northeast corner goes into a little retaining wall and we're looking for opportunities. We've got some overhead, the reason we don't have additional lighting out there is we've got some overhead power lines. So we're still in a formulation state. We were hoping to have something for you for tonight, but we weren't far enough along with a solution to really bring anything of value. So until we have a better solution, we're just going to keep postponing that. But we're working towards an enhanced pedestrian crossing, making it not only possible but comfortable and desirable to cross there instead of going to the intersection on either side. Anything else that you want to bring forward for next time? Yes. Okay. That was quick. Hey. I'm sorry. No, no, no. I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's unfortunate the gentleman died at the train tracks. Right. So I want to talk about is there another way that we can rework that? When I ride my bike down that trail and I go to what we do a lot of times is we'll go across the train tracks, ride the sidewalk to the light, go across, ride the sidewalk back up, go across the train tracks again, and then get back on the path. Why do we have to do that? That's like three points for someone that crosses either large vehicles or a train. Is it possible to have that trail with, what are we calling those, R&R, hot lights, what do we call those? R&R, hot lights, or whatever. Hot lights. So you just have to cross the street once. Is that a possibility? It's not only a possibility, it's a done deal. We've got plans that are at 90%. So we're going to do the same treatment that we've done at Lakeview where you have in front of the arms, you have an opening in the median with a little bollard so that cyclists can go through, cars can't make the U-turn, and we're not going to send you to the signal and back again. Awesome. I love it. So we're also refreshing all the, we just had a re-certification with FRA and they identified some issues that we need to address so we're going to be re-marking all of the pavement markings, reinstalling all those crosswalks, refreshing any signs that are missing or faded or damaged in any way. We're going to be relocating some signs to block, so that we no longer block the view of other signs that are important. So we've got a plan for that entire quiet zone online in their sections. Fantastic, there's a community of folks that are very concerned about it. I'm sure, you know, no one wants anyone to die, but I appreciate that very much. So we've identified some other issues, but we are focusing on all of our quiet zone and all of our rail crossings relative to signs and markings, and that type of treatment anywhere we can where it makes sense, we're going to pursue that as well. Fantastic. Thank you. I've got a couple of things to work with, one is just to bring to attention the cross signal at Hickory and Elm that, you know, makes the noises for the beeping and stuff. Some reason since about midweek it's been like twice as loud, and you might check, but it's something happened. It's very strange how loud it is. So local businesses, I know I talked to Kevin and Rosie and they're like, we can hear through all the walls now all of a sudden. And so anyway, somebody could go out and check. It just seems like some reason the level went really high on it. Okay, I will send our crews to check, but just as a follow on, we met with that vendor and the product that we've been buying is now Legacy. So we'll be buying a new product that actually is controlled on an iPad. So you can talk to any crossing, any one of the four at any intersections to control volume and the message that it, whether it be a chirp or the text or the spoken words. So we're, we're moving to a better system by default because they no longer sell what we've been buying. Well, I mean, it wasn't like that, so it's just kind of strange, but yeah, right now we have to send somebody out there and they have to log in and we'll be able to do that remotely. So just, that's an upgrade for us. One other thing I brought up previously is on Hickory between, you know, UNT and, and Carol basically making it. It's still, I've brought some previous meetings, there's first thing, the road and the sidewalks are in awful shape. You know, there's all, there's holes, there's places, all kinds, there's spots. And I just tell anyone, go walk it at night. You can't see in front of you in five feet. I mean, completely darkness, which is dangerous for pedestrians in general, but you're riding a bike and somebody, something's thrown in there, you know, way you can see it. And I've requested previously that we take a look and I don't know what's happened, but nothing seems to have happened, but just some kind of temporary until we fix it thing so that there's not a gap where it's so dark that you can't see. Cause we do still have bike lanes. You can barely see them, but we still do. And so we're actually kind of as a city encouraging people to bike there, but both as walker, even for walkers to just see if we can come up with a temporary solution. Okay. So, so just a question because I don't see Denton at night very often since I live in Southwest Fort Worth. Is it a lack of fixtures or are they just not burning? I don't think there's anything and it's right about, it's right about in the middle. If you think about, um, what's the last street before you kind of get with the, where the businesses and what street is that? Is that Chelsea or is that what's the Welch, Welch, between about halfway between Welch and Carroll is where it is. And I'd have to check what street it is and there's, because there's spots where there's okay lighting and it's still a little bit around Bernard, Southside, Southside. Yes. Yes. So that's just one area, just some kind of temporary lighting before just to make sure just a very dangerous area. And I'd hate to see somebody fall or anything else happen. And then one other thing I was looking at the matrix and there's a previous request I had that I know remember ever being addressed, but I don't see it on the matrix anymore. And it was at the businesses, um, you know, now we're turning over again cause the little breakfast place went out, but on Hickory just the campus theater building, um, and there's the little shoe place right there and there's two curbs with no curb cuts at all, which is a real barrier too, because it's an urban area. And so, um, accessibility is, you know, strollers, wheelchairs, curb cuts are you talking about ramp accessible ramps? Yeah, there's, it just curbs. Okay. Yeah. There's, there's no cut at all. And so I know it was on there previously, um, I feel like it was like two years ago, but so I've only been here a year, Mark, all of it, bicycle and pedestrian coordinator. Um, but I know I have looked into that. Um, what our conclusion was is that the Hickory street repaving and rebuilding project is eventually going to go all the way to that, I think right there at the campus theater. And so even though it may be two or three years out, it is already programmed to happen, but we're not going to pull it to fix sooner, if that makes sense. So they are as they're going down Hickory street and fixing all that pavement, they're also going, I don't know, six or eight feet from the back of the curb and fixing anything else, any other ADA issue or anything like that as they go down. So when they get there, whenever that will be, it, it will be addressed, um, but not sooner. I understand that prioritizing, I guess one thing is when I try to bring ones to the matrix, I always look at like, what are the ones that are giving us the most bang for the buck? And I choose that one because it's literally an impediment to getting around the square. Yeah. Like you hit a stopping point where either you have to have somebody pick you up or something. And so anyway, that's why I picked that one. So, but I understand what you're saying, but yeah, I agree. And that's an important location. And so if there were a way to move it up or find different funding, I think that would be a candidate. But I just don't know that we don't have something dedicated currently that we could throw it on to, um, that 12 million dollars in November for sidewalks, um, is focusing on safe routes. But again, it's there to accomplish all of our ADA compliance needs. So that would be a good candidate for bond funding, um, post 19 or post November. So I do have a question about the Hickory project. So as soon as the stretch that ends at, um, fry street is completed, will then the next leg start or will there be a time when Hickory is open all the way from Bonnie Bray to Carol Boulevard? So I don't know that I have the most current information, but I think there's going to be at least some period of time where there's no construction. I think we're waiting on some funding. Okay. I think. Okay. Like how long? I don't know. Okay. I can, again, I can find out and I'll bring it back. Okay. Well, I'll tell you why. We may be able to share and I'll have to defer to our legal, uh, if they're asking questions, we can respond to this group before the next meeting or can we? Just, I'm talking about an email about it will be six months before the next project starts. She's asking the lag between the Hickory projects as it progresses and I don't know it right now. Yes. I mean, you can send like you would to council. You can send like an ISR or something like that, but you would need to do it through basically the same procedures we use for council in the sense of we don't want them all on the same email chain to where they could potentially have an open meetings act violation by discussing it after you send it out. Okay. For you, Billy. You didn't identify yourself, Trace. Okay. Let me tell you why I ask. Because the right now, so in my neighborhood is become a cut through for people who cannot do Hickory to Carroll Boulevard. Like they may have originally. I'm probably one of those. Oh, okay. Let's talk. But I'm cutting through because I'm lost and I just say detours everywhere I go is road closed. Yeah. And so it is like in the summertime, I noticed it because I was walking home after class and I start, and there was so much more traffic going by me on Ponder Street, you know, taking scripture on down, hitting Ponder and then going down Congress. And I just physically felt a difference. And then it took me a couple of days to look up and like, yeah, like said, duh, look, there's a detour sign that I hadn't seen, but that is going to, if that's going to continue, the closure is going to continue during the academic year because the closure really only started, you know, as soon as school is out. Right. And I think that's the plan is that we'll the focus of the construction will be during those off during the off periods. Okay. Because then Congress is going to start having a problem if we are, if Hickory is still closed down during the long academic terms. So and people don't know how to navigate even coming to a stop at scripture on the, on the east side of scripture that throws people. Do I stop here or do I just run that stop sign? And then, um, you know, but people who are unfamiliar with the area. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Culprit. Okay. We'll verify that and send it out. And then if that's going to be happening during the long academic term, then we'll have to, I'll then ask somebody to put on the matrix, um, looking at how to traffic calm, at least temporarily in the neighborhood. Okay. I have, I'm sorry, I just have one question that the 12 million that we're getting for might get, you got to claim it. All right. Okay. I don't want to jinx it. Tell, tell all your friends that you're getting, is that only for existing sidewall? No, in fact, uh, capital dollars are not intended for repair. There are new construction only. So we'll be looking for gaps in existing sidewalk networks and areas where sidewalks just don't exist. McKinney at the, McKinney at the, uh, railroad cross. I think, I think there's a sidewalk already planned for that. Um, I got to, I got to verify that, but I, I pre temp told me that this past last week that we were talking about some of the upcoming quiet zones and McKinney was one of them. And I believe there's already a sidewalk plan for that. You know, I'm talking about right there when you come across the track. Yeah. Yeah. But the big, and the swerve and yeah. Nobody get hit. Nobody get hit. Nobody get hit. Oh, I made it. Yeah. So that's, you know, cause I walk, I walk a lot around. Okay. Well, like I say, that's certainly a candidate, but I think it's already programmed from our Hickory street, uh, deliberations, I really liked the idea of the bike box of the cycles coming back out and into the traffic. And we have a situation where on Oak, right there at, uh, Elm, Locust, right there at recycle books, it stops and bikes have to reenter the traffic. So could we put a bike box right there on Oak? So historically I have not, I was not a proponent of bike boxes. However, I am now because they go in perfect combination with the leading ped interval. So the bikes get, they queue them up in front of the cars and when the ped indication goes, the bikes go. And so we get them at least started, if not completely out of the way, because they do actually move faster than pets or some do, um, before the traffic gets the green and starts moving. So that's exactly what we're, that's the kind of thing we're trying to incorporate, get those, um, somewhat slower and much more vulnerable populations out ahead of that vehicular traffic. So when they start moving and they're trying to decide, there's already somebody in that crosswalk or there's somebody already in that lane. So they have to yield versus I'm going to, I'm bigger, I'm going to go, you yield to me. Yeah. I'd just like you to look at that intersection because it's uphill where you're stopping and then the lane ends and you have to get back into traffic. And also being downtown, that is a good place to start instructing and bringing this to people's awareness because more people are going to see that. That is a great starting place for a lot of our ped bike concepts just, and then, cause that, as we saw with the crash history, that's where our peds and bikes are. I mean, we've got, uh, I mean, you just got so much activity down there and it's 24 seven. It's just always going. So yeah, we're going to, we're going to start a lot of our programs in downtown area. Any other questions? Going once. Yes, I'd like to say something. She and I go back to Wally Campbell. He served six years and she served six years and done a great job and one of the few female chair people of all these boards and commissions in the city. So I'd like to give my congratulations for serving. Thank you. Thank you. Now it's been fun and it's been fun watching the evolution of the, you know, of the committee. We used to get out of here a lot faster and I, I'm a sucker for talking stuff through and I just love it, you know, sorry, you know, but yeah, I think that there's, I have really loved watching the involvement, like increase and having a committee that's willing to kick things around. Yeah, sure. So thank you. And with that, we're adjourned at 744.