Jul 11, 2019 Special Citizens Bond Advisory Committee on 2019-07-11 6:00 PM

Good evening, welcome to the July 11th Special Citizens Bond Advisory Committee meeting. We are going to have a full agenda tonight. The first item on our agenda is to consider approval of the meeting minutes for June 20th, 2019, June 27th, the 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. Pardon me. Before we go into that though, we'll first take citizen comments that anyone would like to make. Is there any cards? Is anyone wishing to speak, build out a card? Okay. What? Yes. Wait a minute here. Just while this gentleman is preparing a card, a reminder that each speaker will be given a total of three minutes to address items that he or she wishes to discuss that's listed on the agenda. The committee members are allowed to ask questions of the speaker pertaining to items that we're considering for this Bond Program. Do you have a question, sir? I'm sorry. Do you want questions or comments prior to your time over here? Yes. The first item on the agenda is citizen comments, so this would be the time for citizen comments. Does everyone that intends to speak have a card that they're filling out? I'm sorry, may I ask a question while we're waiting for the citizen comments? This is only for items that are listed on today's agenda items, is that correct? The items for today are pretty broad in the sense that we're talking about all projects in the bond and the timeline for the bond and prioritization, so that really encompasses, as long as the comments are about the bond program or any consideration to the bond program that would apply to the agenda. Okay, to the bond program, as given to the committee, the ramifications and restrictions for the two options that we were given? We really get into each project and we even have considerations for what could be involved in the bond program, so if the comments in any way relate to the bond program, they would be appropriate. Okay, so just anything regarding any kind of, we'd like this to be on the bond? Sure. And we're going to do this for how long? As many people as have comments. Okay, as many people as have comments, three minutes each, right? Correct. Yep. All right. Thank you. Okay, I have two cards. The first individual is Mr. Richard Schanauer. Schanhaus, my apologies. And sir, would you please come up to the podium and speak into the microphone? Well, I'm here tonight because I'm a resident in Argyle. And I'm here tonight because I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm here tonight because I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm here tonight because I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm here tonight because I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm here tonight because I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm here tonight because I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, and I'm a resident in Argyle, from you guys. All this is we've seen from websites and whether it's text dot or county or city planning that has gone on the nice little six lane divided highway with like office buildings on each side but it's it's not as you know a rule out there. So that's my concern and I'm here tonight to hear is this I understand there's a bond bond election in November that has to go forward before any of this but where's all the money coming from there's a lot of different entities with the North Texas government and the county and the city and text dot and it doesn't seem like all that money is actually put been put together yet so we would just like some clear clarification on what we're facing. West of 1830 yes ma'am. West of 1830 between 1830 and 377 it's because brush creek dead ends into 377. I'm on the south side and we're actually closer to the street on the south side than the properties on the north side are but it seems like from the information we found that they're going to they're going to take you know from the middle of the road about 70 feet each way. From the website we've been determined that that kind of footage would be required for maybe even more for a road like that for a highway like that. So yes but there's no road there it goes you have to cut through ranch farmland ranch land some time time we got three minutes up and Diana if you could speak into a microphone so we can hear you thank you. Is there a map that we can be looking at if people are going to be interested in? Yes can you get you a map? Oh thank you very much. We're on Wood Creek Circle which is right behind the Denton Company Club 17 and the side of us in there. But it's my house and my house is right adjacent right along. So some of your questions are what I would say are of a technical nature would it be better for you to sit down with a staff person and talk through that first. Okay all right yes sir. Thank you. Thank you. All right next we have Mr. John Davis. It's been a while since I spoke from this podium and first time I've ever been limited to three minutes. First let me thank you citizen members of this committee here for taking time out of your busy schedules to center these projects for our community here and your efforts are really appreciated. I've spent I have 46 and a half plus years as a civil engineer most of my career was spent planning designing building and maintaining major roadway projects so I couch that with the suggestions and comments that I'm going to give you. One is for your roadway projects that you're considering I believe it's a little bit premature. The city is in the process now of updating the 2015 mobility plan. The mobility plan is to guide priorities of roadway projects for capacity projects in the future they're in the process of updating that and that update is scheduled to be completed in February of 2020 so it would seem that you might want or the city and the committee might want to wait till that mobility plan is updated to look at the roadway projects and prioritize them there and see if that brings any new data that would put the election a year from now. The second thing is on the staff recommended project of Hickory Creek Road extension I'm sorry let me back up a second. Actually with the 2015 plan one of the most highest priority roadways in the southern area would be Hobson Lane to widen Hobson Lane and at that you should be correcting the intersection at Hobson Country Club and Fort Worth Drive those people who drive that area in the afternoon know how much it backs up there but Hobson has a greater current traffic and projected traffic than Ryan or Hickory Creek. Now jumping down to Hickory Creek the congested area of Hickory Creek if you will is east of River Pass between River Pass and Keesley Lane there where the houses are. West of that there is no level of service D it's A if at the very worst I'm sorry probably B at the very worst except at the intersection of Country Club there which at the one time the city had plans to improve that the intersection there that would improve that congestion point there. But with the recommended routing of Hickory Creek straight west to 377. Sir your three minutes are up. Okay the best routing would be northwest through the floodplain farmland there and tied to Vintage Road. That way it would connect with the future widening of loop 288 west and connect to an existing six lane project that's already planned and funded. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your comments. Thank you. Is there any other cards at this time? Alright thank you very much. Alright without any other public comments we'll move on to item 2A I believe David of going over the meeting minutes for the last three meetings. Has everyone had a chance to look at those? Any comments or concerns about meeting minutes? Good evening everyone. I was concerned about I believe I tried to address the May 30th meeting but after that there were concerns because the draft minutes did not reflect but only towards certain people that were already on the committee prior to I've noticed that you know when I tried to convey that there needs to be minutes shown that we voted as a whole committee that should have been on the May 30th minutes and it wasn't and I addressed that at the second meeting that we were at and so I tried to reach out to the director of finance about the minutes and you know notice that I just I had to bring it forward that's what I was told that I had to do and I felt like I had did that anyway on record on the second meeting but again I was not heard and there is another committee member who is you know the same ethnicity as I and she has brought up concerns about an area that was posted publicly that has not been addressed and that would be the southeast Denton location and yet none of her concerns or questions were also a part of the draft meetings but most importantly we did a motion on the first meeting that needs to be reflected in the minutes and that it's not I'm really shocked about the fact that it's not and before this month is over that would need to be corrected and you know it's imperative that I address the concerning issues of the Dent community being that we are a committee, we are not an ad hoc committee, we are a standing committee, we meet regularly and we discuss business in our meetings and when I spoke at the June 27th meeting regarding somehow we are having subcommittees after we made a decision not to have subcommittees and they were labeled as task force committees, they were labeled as aka finance meetings or a finance meeting group and some of our counterparts that are on the committee had noticed that we did not vote on a subcommittee and you know I've noticed that we also came to a conclusion that oh my God an epiphany this really is a subcommittee, it is not what it's supposed to be and I was really taken back because to my face I was told basically a lie that it was not a subcommittee and then in this it's on record saying that really it truly was a subcommittee so the article came out for Denton Chronicle about the situation recently here and I believe that was past Sunday that I didn't know that they were going to show up at the subcommittee but they did and so when they noticed as well that it was labeled as such but really it was a subcommittee, subcommittees I looked up what the subcommittee quorum should be, I don't know if everybody on the committee knows what a quorum is, what it's supposed to have been I believe okay there's 19 of us all together on this committee and so as a body we would have to have half of the people from that committee which would have been 10 and one over to be able to meet quorum and so right now we have a situation where June 27th the chairman says on record that you know we've met twice as you know a task force and well both of those meetings would have had to be posted but that's not the case. The case is when I looked online I did not see but one post for the subcommittee and I don't know if everybody has also went ahead and done and I don't know if everybody received the same email that I got on May 30th but we were told that you would need to be looking at this video to be certified about what's supposed to happen with an open meetings act and so when I looked at the video today all of everything that I have experienced which I will label as abuse of oppression because I felt like I was not heard and other members on the committee have not been heard which would be to me being that the two that were not heard in the draft minutes would be African American descent both of us is discrimination and that is a part of abuse of oppression. I am totally taken back about the opens meeting act because from my understanding it says and I quote in order for members of a governmental body which is us subject to an open meetings act are required to participate in education training sessions pursuant to section 551.005 of the Texas government code the training requirement applies to all elected or appointed officials who participate in meetings subject to OMA however it does not apply to public officials who do not conduct business in meetings subject to OMA and further down it says the law requires that the members subject to the OMA complete training within 90 days of taking the oath of office or otherwise assuming the responsibility of office and if you go online you can see this is public information through the Texas attorney general's office. So that said that makes the subcommittee that has been having meetings with us hardly because some of the people in the committee did not even know that this is going on so right there is a violation right there the second is that the violation with not posting the meeting for the first time that you guys had met you didn't even list the names in the open meetings act you have to list the name the time and the date of when you guys met online I saw the second meeting for I believe it's July no June I want to say June it's the date in June that I have printed out and it was about the second meeting there was no names listed there was no time and date it had the video but those things were imperative to be a part of the drafting minutes and it was not and according to the open meetings act in order to have such participation you would have to meet quorum you would have to have those dates and times people that you attended and you would have to have exactly everything that was said in that meeting as a requirement in order to do it or you can't present whatever you're trying to present to the committee because it would be considered a violation because the public has to be able to be informed all the time when there's meetings like this that has been brought to our attention and I can't do anything but I can't help but to think who's responsible for allowing these subcommittees to go on even after we had a vote not to have them they were disallowed I was kind of taken back to to notice that somebody an authority had to have allowed that so I looked on the video and I saw that it's the city manager and I saw that you know the director of finance you know was a part of allowing these meetings to continue now I'm sure that they've taken I could be wrong I could be wrong but I'm sure that they've taken these open meetings at training for certification but we also I have I also saw that we also have to take it within 90 days and no May 30th is when we first got word of this so that means June 30th July 30th that's only 60 days I'm like we we have to do this and then we're talking about the cities in debt being in debt about how that article came out about the state giving funds you know to the city and the city has not the city of didn't the citizens have not felt like the money was spent properly and there was nothing that could be squeezed out of that but yet I find out online that the city manager was still able he got he got here in 2016 in 2018 he was able to squeeze out 4% of getting a raise and I thought that we were in debt so I wasn't sure what what what's going on with how we're conducting things we can't go on Mr. Chair I'd like to ask if this is in order because you had minutes minutes for approval on the floor and we don't have any kind of emotion we're just having a speech could could I suggest could I suggest if that's the case if that's the case let's vote on the minutes and then open open the floor for that but we have what is on the floor is a motion on to approve the minutes from the June 27th meeting now there's a specific thing that she wants to admit or to correct in the minutes let's correct the minutes but but right now we're talking about a raise to the city manager which has nothing to do with this bond election and due to the fact that I wasn't here for June 27th I don't know if y'all heard about what happened why I wasn't here but that's why I would like to hear what's going on what we're voting for so I would that's why I want to hear what she has to say okay so this is this is a concern because as a body a governmental body such as this we have issues before us that's brought to our attention and if we're not acting properly towards the act you know we can't call ourselves an ad hoc meeting because it's not like we're trying to do a festival and have you know a bunch of us just thinking about okay what we're going to plan for that meeting and then we're not going to see each other again that's what an ad hoc meeting our committee is but we are actually meeting regularly and conducting business so that's what my concerns were I mean the quorum not being met you know being another question when you say quorum was not met right for the for the full committee no for this that the body members of the committee in order for you to do a subcommittee you would have to have what half of the people from the committee come and then one over so half of 19 is 11 so wait when you did the subcommittee you only had seven people at that yeah so it was like mr. chairman I'm sorry at the May 30th draft minutes it says it was a task force correct what was were the because I was not I can't remember what point I was here were the May 30th minutes approved yes yes so so it was a task force that was created and I'm sorry I don't understand the the going from a task force to now a subcommittee and I'm not sure if that's because in the meetings that I missed if there was a change no thank you is there a chance that somebody could address the open like whether we actually even fall under the open means at or is the city attorney here as he's coming up I will point out that both the June 27th tight finance task force meeting was an open meeting that was posted and we're approving the minutes for that meeting today it was open to all committee members posted for the public obviously recorded for the public and the meeting today for the finance committee the finance task force meeting was again posted open for the open for the public and open for all members of the committee mr. chairman can I read from the May 30th minutes I'm sorry that there is some confusion but these are the minutes that were approved part of them following a discussion on the committee's next direction committee chair Pat Smith call for a motion to form a task force to focus on the bond programs financing where to draw the funding line and based on affordability researching and providing options etc. Tim Crouch made a motion to form a task force focusing on the proposed bond programs financing I seconded the motion and the motion passed unanimously which is what we approved in our minutes from May the 30th you advised mr. Gaines that the task force meetings be scheduled separately from the committee's meetings and offered staffs assistance with posting the meetings they've been posted also chairman Smith invited any of the committee members who wanted to be involved in the task force to participate by contacting Susan Parker so we were all offered the opportunity to serve on the task force committee and the motion was approved unanimously they show a hands of everybody who thought that we voted on as a committee as a whole does everybody remember that or do you guys remember just doing it as a subcommittee yeah so let me let me get me right the task force committee is to take a vote on what we've discussed and bring that back to the whole committee correct correct we go over it right right okay for the point of clarification the task force meetings are open to all committee members there will be no vote at those meetings they will come back whoever attends those meetings I believe the intent and this is from the committee itself is for them just to come back and speak about any considerations that they had during those meetings there is no vote at any of the finance meetings and again those are open to all committee members and we've not taken any vote and you know Queen I have a point of order that if you have a comment on an amendment to meeting minutes that have need to be corrected then make make a motion to amend the meeting minutes I did what's the motion I you made a motion for us to go ahead and have us vote as a whole there was not if that vote that there was a subcommittee after that it was after we voted doesn't make any sense how y'all came it wasn't even like the whole like when I mentioned it even on June 27 not everybody even knew that there was a vote for a subcommittee at all there that's because there wasn't a vote for a subcommittee there was a vote for a task force but people are getting there are really believing that that task force is doing business in the meetings it's nowhere so discussing finance business we're discussing finance business but in and correct me I'm wrong today but we are not taking any vote on any motion which would be considered formal business all we're doing is formulating recommend ations multiple recommendations which we intend to present tonight to the entire committee and we were very careful not to vote on anything but simply to bring options to the full committee which we intend to tonight but that opened to me abuse if have you ever done this before that opens the meetings act yes yes so you would know that there would be no way that you could present anything without you didn't have all of your all of not have to have all of us there but you didn't even meet all the the quorum qualifications requirements well I'm going to defer to the city attorney on that topic Larry calls to the city attorney's office what I understand the minutes as they were read I was here for that meeting that's what that's what occurred is that the task force was set up just for additional detailed discussion by members of this body and that no formal action was going to be taken by that body there's recommendations made by this by that task force this committee for recommendation from this committee that else lady council that's all that was going on it was posted to that it was also made available for everybody to show up and that there it wasn't it's not two other it's only one showing for the posting for that for that for the task force I'm just going off the records that I've viewed that have been posted online in that in the minutes that have been approved yeah and unless somebody can point to where there's been a specific violation I'm not seeing anything now that's not for me helping to make the decision on that but I want you to understand is that what what the chair is saying what other members are saying what the minutes reflect is that no decision is being made to that task force task force with respect to the financing options are being presented later they're just recommendations it's open for a full deliberation this evening and so everybody sitting here at this table will have the ability to vote on every option that's either recommended or not recommended by the task force and so you're going to be able to have your opportunity to entertain anything the floor is going to be wide open for it so I just wouldn't recommend it I wouldn't recommend it but I definitely was able to at least point out everything that I saw and you know like I said it's just you're not really supposed to do it but now you know on record that it's been been said and heard but if you continue to do it anyway okay yeah I wouldn't do it though I wouldn't do it I wouldn't wouldn't do it I promise you I wouldn't do it what wouldn't you do I would not I would not present to the committee anything that you've discussed because right now there's no posting of the first meeting that you guys had to be meeting quorum and then the second meeting did not have who was in the meeting the time or the date and that's the requirement through the attorney general I wouldn't do it I wouldn't do it I wouldn't do it noted thank you so I have a question with what she's stating there are several different meetings that we've had that I had some concerns about Southeast Denton was that anywhere in the meetings is that has that been brought up or I think it's in a tonight's meeting yeah item 2d on the next item on the agenda will address Southeast Denton and the projects are associated with shopping sit in the bond program do you agree though that David that's a broad when you sent me that email about that it's for 70 million dollars and it's only saying what's the term they're giving it it didn't name like how you're naming Bonnie Ray Ray okay and how you're naming Hickory you're naming those I think that's a great discussion to have when we get the to be I think okay I would like to move approval of the June 27th meeting all three I'll second that motion any discussion other discussion all in favor approving the June 20th June 27th and June 3 p.m. and June 27th at 6 p.m. meeting minutes raise your right hand all opposed same sign motion passes all right moving on to item to be take your way David good evening committee we're going to take this opportunity to just touch on the projects at a high level and some changes to recent changes that have just kind of changed some of our cost that just happened in the past a couple of days I will say up to this point we've now presented all projects within within the considerations for the bond program so this is obviously an opportunity to ask any questions whether referencing former presentations or questions that you have regarding any program this is a definitely an opportunity for that and we have staff here that could address any of those projects I want to I want to start off the presentation by touching on our public public safety facility projects just in the past couple of days we've had some revisions to our estimates for the public safety facilities and obviously they're significant and we wanted to bring this to the committee as soon as possible we engage in estimating firm peak program value to review all of our all of our costs for these facility projects for the police station renovation for the police substation for in for fire station eight this is now the fourth review we've had of those dollars starting initially with the city staff estimate and then going into our architect X estimate and the architect even used an estimating firm but as we go forward we wanted to make sure that we felt confident in the numbers so we brought in another firm to come in and take a hard look at the cost this is a firm that has a nationwide footprint has worked with Louisville city of Louisville quite a bit is currently working with the city of Richardson so we really take a lot of value in their estimates and their opinion so they took a look at look at the projects and you can see here in total they're recommending that we increase our cost estimates by about twenty one million dollars between the two projects together an increase of close to twelve million dollars for the police renovation and an increase of about nine and a half million dollars for the police substation that increase at twenty one million dollar increase about five million of that is just strictly construction costs so the construction estimates that we had moving forward were pretty close to where we are now with this new estimate the remainder of that delta between the five million and the twenty one million that additional sixteen million is driven by these factors listed here the largest being an increased amount for contingency and for cost inflation over the two three years that the project will actually be going on until completion of the project the initial estimates did have an amount for contingency and inflation but it was definitely a much lower amount than the new estimators that have come in and looked at what we should really consider in these costs should be so we feel more comfortable going with this larger amount for contingency and inflation for these projects but it does have an impact on the total amount total dollar amount I think from a staff perspective the worst thing we could do is go forward with a bond election have a bond election approved eventually and be underfunded on these projects there has been a number of months since our initial initial estimate in February or so or even prior so the time time difference is going to have some some impact on that as costs have increased but also I think it's a philosophical difference in how these estimators have looked at the projects that have driven that increase the other the second second largest increase in the dollar amounts in these estimates compared to the former estimates are for infrastructure for IT security and AV systems these are obviously very significant at any police station or substation and those increases are two to three million dollars more now in this revised estimate than we had previously and given the nature of those items at a police station we feel it's important that we include those those enhanced numbers the remainder of the items here are not as significant as those top two and the construction cost increases but we are now anticipating increased design engineering costs some professional services that weren't included initially for material testing and then increased cost for the furnitures and fixtures that are needed to fill out the buildings so again we wanted to bring this to you as as soon as possible as soon as we got the numbers especially as we're heading into that discussion with the committee of prioritization and ultimately to decisions in the next couple of meetings so I'll open it up for any questions that you have on this right now before before I continue microphone what is the estimated completion of both of these projects in other words knowing the increase we have per month just for roads do you see where this went is this actually enough well we feel like this is enough we feel like we like this is this is a good dollar amount we would issue these funds in 2021 the remainder of these funds in 2020 and 2021 and the project would complete in 2022 thank you they did look at the fire station we have a preliminary estimate on that it may it may vary slightly but it won't be anything anything close to us right oh yes for sure yeah $200,000 $400,000 over a million 1.3 Karen did you have a question Nathan did you have a question John we had earlier talked about building a new police department if you're really asking this kind of costs isn't it not more feasible to go ahead scratch this and build a new police department you figured someone would ask that the our initial estimates on the the new police station was about 20 million dollars more than what we're seeing here so basically what happened when they went through and did the estimating they've got recent bids from the Richardson project and they just finished up one in in Louisville what they're saying is if you're carrying out these projects for the next 36 months you've significantly underestimated the amount of that so I of the carry that you're going to have to see a new the renovation project if we built new you're going to acquire additional land and you're probably looking at another 20 to 25 million above and beyond what you're seeing here it was it was not even a close Delta which is why we decided with the same money back then we were discussing do we go ahead and build the substation so the chiefs cut the ability to to put folks out in the areas out near Robeson and from that area and they're not having to fight to get downtown and get out of their districts that long and centralize it or do you just build a larger station and try and come up with a different solution so when we added the two projects together we were pretty close to building a new station itself I was doing a lot of research and I found in Round Rock for example they use all their fire stations as police substations that would give you seven or eight substations across the city and they do that simply by having small substations that the unit can go to and they can download and do all their data and basically they don't have to assign desks it's more like what you see where they share the desk sure so for Round Rock specifically since I came from central Texas their city is not spread out as much as we are it's a lot more condensed and compact where you can get away with doing that the problem you have having officers working out of fire stations is you don't have a secure way to drop off evidence evidence has to be secured for chain of custody you can't transport prisoners to the substation to a fire station to stop and interview them you can't meet complainants at fire stations to take interviews from or reports from they still have to take all them back to their main police station downtown so because they're not as spread out as we are it's very easy to do that to be able to work out of one police station as we continue to grow it will be virtually impossible for us to do that without having police officers out of their districts for a long period of time that was one of your issues before was they couldn't stop in the parking lot and do their report but they could go to a fire station and do that Chief what's your take on this in terms of cost growth and do you have I defer to David Gaines honest answer for the extra 21 million are we getting exactly what we had estimated or proposed that's it's no no extra benefits thrown in in other words it's still you didn't cut scope to get scope hasn't the scope remained the same and we just simply had new sets of eyes based on brand and most recent pricing says how those were developed in terms of are we getting exactly need I'm gonna leave that up to chief dancers I'm gonna use part of that design yeah definitely we are we are getting exactly and that was a lot of the thought process before we even put together a package to come forward with was to make sure that we wouldn't be recreating this process again we're talking 30 40 years down the road I have one question only because we're looking at this now going to City Council for you know we make a recommendation from this committee to Council and then it goes on the November ballot voted yes or no how much more of an increase between now and November or January when this starts have we looked at those increases as well yes this these numbers were grossed up using current bid numbers and inflationary factors to assume that we would have about a 36-month window so as long as and I've been working with staff in order to move around some of the timing of the projects to make sure that the public safety projects would be the first ones in the gate to try to stem that we feel like we've got in I got a question this earlier today about the the road projects that we definitely feel like we've got adequate contingency and inflationary escalation bill on those based upon our even our most recent bids that we've left so both of those we feel like we're comfortable for the next duration of bond program chief I have a question and I'm sorry if I remember correct we wanted to do the substation first so that then functions at the main station to move out to the substation correct which would then allow a phased renovation of the main police station correct that's still that is still the plan yes sir so there is a there is a linkage between the two if if you deferred the substation my guess is there's going to be some additional cost to the renovation because you're not going to have to create swing space is that a is that a term yeah swing space is a term you have to create swing space for those functions that we're going to renovate to move to you renovate and move them back correct accurate statement that is very accurate if we take the substation out and we're only doing dealing with the station downtown we will have to think of some way to move personnel around while it's being renovated whether it's bringing in you know mobile buildings or repurposing space okay I think I think one of the other things that we've also tried to do is we've been talking about going to a general construction manager risk project contract for both buildings so they can coordinate both subs you know concrete plumbing whatever it is and make the most of those efficiencies so this is a pretty big change in price tag any other questions so the tax rate assumptions were that 210 million was sort of no effect on the tax rate is this now going to affect the tax rate well I will get we'll get into that discussion here if we stay at the 210 we still feel the total tax rate will not go over our current total tax rate and and I can just kind of jump to this quickly and this was in the finance presentation that was sent to everyone along with additional backup information that went along with that finance presentation but you can see if and I think right now we're at a point where we feel comfortable going forward a five percent increase assumption and assessed values that would be a four cent increase a max four cent increase on the debt service tax rate specifically but it would keep us below the total tax rate at 210 if we were were to go up and just add this additional amount and go up to 230 million dollars we're going to run the numbers and get the increase will probably be about five and a half cents on the debt service tax rate side that might take us over that total tax rate in one or two years just for one or two years of that of the six-year window that's something that we're going to run the numbers on to see what the impact on the total tax rate would be how are you all calculating what the tax revenue is going to be when the appraisal district challenges are ongoing and I was notified that mine wouldn't even be scheduled till possibly November we're taken as educated of a guess as I can we we get we get assessed preliminary reports on our assessed value we get 15 preliminary reports before our final report we've met we just got our 15th report last Friday so we have two weeks net from now we'll get our final certified values based on trends and last year how those values have decreased I've made some assumptions on where we might end up in assessed values but it's a variable out there the appraisal district has said they've had the record number of protests so it is something that in two weeks we'll get our certified values and that'll be our final number that we work from but up until that point we are making the best estimate that we can and what the assessed value will be even though it will clearly be changing all the way up to the protests I know they're doing commercial first and residential second so basically the numbers that we have now we have our preliminary value we've reduced that significantly anticipating those drops but you know it could be even more than we anticipated. David would you want to show the historical chart that you showed earlier? So as we're discussing a 5% AV growth assumption here you can see our AV growth since 2008 we picked 2008 so that we could see kind of the impact of a recession if it were to come obviously having one in 2008 and you always have somewhat delayed effect on property values after a recession as they drop so you can see that we had that drop there but since 2011 we've had steady increases with significant increases from 2014 on currently we're estimating a total increase in AV of about 8.8% if we look at just non-frozen values which obviously we have our we have the tax freeze in place now our second year of the tax freeze it's about 7.3% which is really the number that would be in our forecast so that's 7.3% increase on those non-frozen values that we're looking at right now. And David compared old versus new growth what are those ratios or those amounts? Our new growth is around $420 million, $430 million and our total assessed value is around $11 billion. So new growth is about four tenths of a percent of the total tax base so if you're saying well we've got new growth we're putting an eye dropper in the ocean. Then that average is including the recession is six percent. Alright do you want to go move on to the current project costs? So a lot of numbers up here obviously but I thought it was important to just show from a high level view what this change does to our total options. You can see these are the estimates we've been working on and these numbers have obviously tweaked and changed especially on the roadway project as we've gone through the process notably on Ryan Road which decreased significantly when we saw the impact of Hickory Creek. But you can see in total for our proposition for public safety facilities that estimate has now increased from $45.5 million to $66.9 million including the police station renovation, fire station aid, substation and firing range and I will note the order that we have these in are these are the staff recommended how we would prioritize the projects for each proposition with the renovation first, fire station aid second and then down on the roadways Bonnie Grand, Hickory Creek. So obviously what that does is we're at to stay at the two hundred and ten million dollar mark we would either you know do something different in public safety facilities or do something less in the roadways on one of the roadway projects or we would increase the pie from the two ten to take into account the increased estimate for the public safety facilities. Any questions, comments? So again I just one thing to point out and this is brought up at a previous meeting so as we consider going up over the two hundred and ten our estimate is about fourteen million if we add fourteen million dollars that would equate to a cent on the tax rate for that max increase and again that max increase just means in one year we go that high it doesn't mean we're going to be up to the max each of the six years of the program it's just we hit that in one year but by the nature of debt service that fluctuates down following that. So fourteen million dollars and that's how we got to the point where we say that twenty million is about a cent and a half increase over what we're showing here to say we're at twenty million now so that's fourteen plus the six. Sorry could you go back one slide on the Ryan Road, on the Ryan Road the total cost and then the updated why did it go from ten million ten to twenty five million on the original and then down to four to nineteen million. That amount decreased more than that previously what this is showing here is just the four to nineteen million would be the city funding up the funds in the bond program the additional amount would be funds from other sources. That amount did decrease from other iterations but that old amount's not included on the bond program. Thank you. So I do have a quick question. Sure. On the street rehab program it has seventy million right? Southeast Dent is part of that correct? Correct. How much of that is actually going toward Southeast Dent? Ten point eight million of the seventy million on the street rehab program is going toward Southeast Dent. So if I can just jump to this quickly and give you a view of our estimates right now for the time of the bond program in Southeast Denton we're estimating close to eleven million dollars in the street rehab program about a half million dollars of the twelve million dollar sidewalks program would be devoted to Southeast Denton for a total of eleven point three included in the bond program in Southeast Denton. We've also shown some of the other funding that won't be included in the bond program but especially on the water. Wastewater is really tied to a lot of the projects that would be going on with the street rehab program. We're estimating about twelve point four million dollars in investment from our utility funding would go toward Southeast Denton and then another two point five million dollars just for our regular maintenance that's paid through for our operating street fund would go toward Southeast Denton over the life of this bond. Okay so as being a resident and a business owner in Southeast Denton ten point eight million we pay taxes over there as well. Almost every street in Southeast Denton has potholes, not potholes, potholes and needs repair not just continuing to patch the potholes we need the streets to be repaired. So where does this come in and how much of the bond funds previously have been spent on repairing Southeast Denton? Todd, as the City Engineer as far as what previous bond dollars actually went into Southeast Denton I'd have to go investigate that. I don't know the answer to that one off the top of my head. What I can show you is what David was talking about is there are several different avenues that we would go down for every street so not every street in Southeast Denton falls into that below 45 OCI category so it's yes it's got some potholes but there are certain areas where we don't have to rebuild the entire street from the foundation of the roadway all the way to the top where you're seeing a lot of potholes obviously there's something going on but we don't necessarily have to rebuild the street from the bottom up that's where the bond dollars go in that other two and a half million dollars the vast majority of that would be what we would call a mill and overlay so most of those streets are asphalt roadways so a mill and overlay we actually bring in the machine that chews up the entire top layer of the roadway and it can go as deep as six to eight inches which would be well lower than any of the potholes you're seeing out there and then we would rebuild the entire street from that eight inches up those places are those places so you'll see these areas on this map up here I don't know if you can see it all that well from where you're at so any of these lines that are in green are roadways and this was as early or as late as yet just earlier today we went and just double checked to make sure we had the same the right information but the green areas are areas that it just need it needs an oil change kind of like your car needs an oil change just to keep going so some of those areas and you'll see it's it's a fairly small area in that entire southeast dentin area but you're the green lines are where we would come and put a new surface layer very thin layer on top so that it would last a much longer time these areas in yellow probably we're seeing a lot more of the potholes along with the areas in red so these areas in red we would rebuild the entire roadway from the foundation of the roadway which is a good 24 to 30 inches deep in some places all the way back up so it's a brand new road then the areas that you see in yellow the foundation of the road still in good shape but it's that top course that needs to be ground down and replaced so that you don't have that pothole condition and and that would be these areas in yellow well some of the areas that i see that are in yellow and they you say that it's just the top just where the potholes but if you go back and look these are just have been just repaired over and over and i feel like if you stop just repairing it and just fix what needs to be fixed then that'll save as well so a pothole repair is different from a mill and overlay so a pothole repair which you've been saying is i come in fill in that hole and just move on and hope that it lasts for a while that's not what a mill and overlay is mill and overlay i'm gonna come in and do the entire road so that's exactly what we're talking we're rebuilding the entire road what you typically get with a pothole is there's been a crack or something that started to develop a hole you see it throughout denton then over time as cars continue to run over it or we get into the cold weather when we get that one or two freezes a year here i mean we don't get that many but when you get a few of them water gets in there and it sits and then it freezes and when water freezes it expands that makes the roadway tear itself up even faster and then the cars continue to roll over just on and on and on so those potholes just get bigger and if you don't address them when they're really small then you get what you've got right now in so many places in denton you've got just a lot of potholes the bottom of that is still good but that top six to eight inches sometimes it's even nine inches depending on where you're in town that's the part we would be grinding all the way down to the bottom all the way across the entire width of the roadway for the entire length of that roadway and i do understand the difference um and i still feel like a lot of the streets in southeast didn't need to have the total repair um there's you go down one street sometimes you feel like you're going down a hill or up a hill and it's supposed to be a straightaway so there's 15 roughly 15 lane miles that we've identified it's 16 we call it 63 seconds but it's 15 lane miles of roadway in that southeast denton area that absolutely has to be broken all the way down to the foundation rebuild the foundation all the way back up you're 100 right and that's where the vast majority of the bond money spent in this area would go so that nearly 11 million dollars would go to that over that 15 lane miles then you've got about another four lane miles that wouldn't get rebuilt it would get that milling overlay we'd come down nine inches and put nine brand new inches or whatever the width the however deep the actual asphalt is we put a brand new coat across the entire thing the entire width entire length down for the asphalt to the top of the foundation and then you'd have another eight lane miles still in good condition we just need to overtop it and just give it a longer life i had uh previously in previous meetings requested some information um for southeast denton that some say i can find it online but i was advised that it would be given to me i still haven't received that i do i would like to receive it can you remind me what that information is um i asked about when the last time the roads were repaired in southeast denton i did ask as well about when was the how much was spent to repair the roads in southeast denton and um on the out of the bond money previously as well um i was advised at the meeting that i asked well we'll we don't have it now but we'll get it for your next meeting we didn't have it next meeting my sincere apologies we have been doing a lot of things and we missed that one so we will make sure that that gets taken care of therese we can make sure that's in the meeting minutes tog can you explain a little bit what's going to happen to locust and elm over the next year or two yes i'm sorry i'm sorry i thought you were done no come on when i go southeast didn't y'all know i'm stuck for um on the street repair it didn't the 70 million for that area stayed the same with everyone else increasing or why didn't it increase in that area because due to the fact that southeast didn't doesn't have any sidewalks there's no so i understand the new areas being built they want sidewalks but i feel like instead of building sidewalks in areas that really don't need it repair the streets that need to be repaired not only in southeast didn't there's some downtown as well so instead of building sidewalks why don't we repair these streets because the new neighborhoods don't just actually need sidewalks i'm not sure i'm following where you're going if you're asking do you want to address that so the uh so the original dollar amount that we had for the street rehab program when we started the committee was 35 million dollars so we've we've increased that to 70 million dollars and that was a result of the previous meeting where we said we want to make sure we get everything below the 20 oci for the bond for the street quality plus the neighborhoods that were specified as far as the discussion between sidewalks and the street rehab program i think that's a discussion for the committee to have as you start talking about prioritizations and and what the ultimate uh recommendation for the bond program is and not to go back but the young man that came up here first that mentioned that he's in a rural area and about adding the streets out there if it's not a lot of traffic out there why aren't why are we repairing and making making streets wider out there in that area when we have streets here that need to be repaired there are quite a few reasons for that it's the growth of the community it's where we're already seeing a lot of traffic but there's also the funding ability to grab to be able to get funds from other resources to help us make that happen so the 36 million we're actually identifying here resolves a tragic scenario that has occurred multiple times over over the last 30 years multiple fatalities multiple accidents they recur that occur annually at the intersection just east of the intersection of um let me call it of 1830 and hickory creek i mean most everybody i believe saw the the news earlier this year and it's it's this segment of hickory creek road that comes to 1830 there is a significant amount of traffic that travels that way on a daily basis as they commute to work and then come home as well as trying to get over to the high school on one side and multiple elementary schools in the area it's an area that is growing there's multiple development multiple developments coming into this area they're actively coming in they're coming to council very soon or they are under construction in the area immediately to the north the 36 million we're asking for now that would be in the bond would even if nobody else threw extra money into the kitty to make this thing go further it would construct three lanes brand new with the bridge all the way over to 1830 and resolve a current safety concern as well as improve the capacity and volume in the area so people can get back and forth quicker and safer so that that resolves that but it also unlocks a bunch of funding potential from other entities that help us go further with those dollars now instead of waiting until they got super expensive down the road i know i brought this up previously but everyone in southeast didn't just like everyone else pay taxes southeast didn't didn't get their streets repaired or started working on them until the late 60s early 70s but was paying taxes this whole time right so due to the point that we were paying taxes are we getting that refunded saw that smile sorry no what one of the struggles we have throughout the city didn't because the streets maintenance program was neglected across the city for so long that taxes still over time weren't keeping pace because of the way they were diverted and i can't answer the reasons why i don't know who or what groups made those decisions i can only tell you where we're planning to go right now and that's a recognition that not just because not just because there's an underserved put a portion of the city that infrastructure is old it needs to be replaced just like we have a lot of aging infrastructure throughout the city and it is one of the areas that needs the most attention right now that's why it is one of the prime candidates and has been from the very start of the discussion for this program for this bond program was to have this segment of town be in this bond program it was a prime focus here i have a lot of people that have voiced their concerns about due to the fact that we are in southeast denton we're across the tracks that we forgot about no one cares because we are in southeast denton so okay let's just patch this up and they'll be happy and let's leave them alone so that's how they're it's going way back so that's why it's a big concern southeast is a real concern it's like you know we pay taxes like everyone else and now you're telling out of 70 million we're only getting 11 million when taxes have been paid bonds have been done previously and streets need to be repaired we're been without sidewalks okay if get sidewalks fine if not fine but the streets do need to be repaired half the time if you pass a car in one of the streets in southeast denton you have to pull over to the side so one car can go by so that's why my concern is we're worried about these new areas about having sidewalks and all of this what about the areas we have now well and that is where the 70 million is focused on these roadways is on all of these areas because it southeast end is an area of town there are a lot of other areas in town that also have aging infrastructure and they fall into that same category that's a neglect that was prior to me prior to you i mean there was a neglect that was there and how do we start making traction somewhere we have to start at some point that's where we are today previous bond packages didn't even begin to approach 70 million dollars on the transportation side when it came to just these roadways neighborhood streets the local streets this is the first time i've ever seen the city of denton actually go into 70 million dollars targeted to those streets and that is absolutely what the conversation is for you all is as we prioritize this where do you see the priorities where do you as a body want to go because i agree there are so many places to start where do you pick you know you're looking at a program here that would engage full reconstruction of the streets that really are just like anywhere else in town really are in bad shape and need to be completely reconstructed and that includes the water the wastewater the drainage everything and that's what you're seeing here is if you look at the numbers that we were putting together these numbers here reflect a complete reconstruction of infrastructure within that entire neighborhood there are three other neighborhoods that we're also targeting to go into this bond program and then every other street within the city that's 20 oci or less that's in that 70 million dollar number for just the streets but there's other funding sources the water revenue funds wastewater revenue funds that help bolster that number through other ways so the total expense when it comes to infrastructure in these areas has greatly increased beyond just the 10 or 11 million dollars to the roadway because that's what it costs to rebuild the road the total investment into southeast denton and other places is a much bigger number so southeast denton goes from 11.3 million to get sidewalks near the school to put in the roadway reconstruction plus maintenance dollars that would go into the entire neighborhood and then you're going to put in additional water wastewater revenue to upgrade all the utilities in that area as well it's aging just as much as the roadway you're talking about a total expense of 25 to 26 million dollars just in that neighborhood if you're asking can we spend more from an engineer's perspective i don't see more to be spent not because you couldn't widen roadways you could but if i'm rebuilding the current roadways that's what it costs to rebuild them you go back to the the one with the all the roads of the yellow and the green and the red you're really you're reconstructing close to 15 lane miles in southeast denton yes right for can't read that number 8.6 million yes have y'all been to southeast this is my neighborhood yeah so my thing of it is some people just drive through there every now and then some of us live there right so to go through there every day and you need the same thing every day i've actually walked down every street in southeast dent and knocked on several doors asking how they felt about the streets and this is why i'm giving the feedback this is what i get i have the elderly i have a woman not too far from she's not too far from walmart she lives in the apartment she's in an electrical wheelchair there's still a dirt road over there that she has to go down with her wheelchair so i'm like hmm wait a minute this this this isn't right so that's why i'm bringing it up i'm bringing up the concerns not just for me but from my neighborhood but in for particular scenarios like that because we have that in a lot of places in town where we have to go investigate is work with the homeowner the property owner and find out what is the condition we have ada resources that need to be provided throughout the city they just they're lacking it's it's years of not taking care of that infrastructure that we're trying to catch up with now as well as i've got to determine how much of where she is right now the particular person you're talking about is is it on private property or is it in public property is it something i've got to go acquire property is it i don't know without talking to that particular person i don't know and so many of those circumstances are just individual conversations and we'd be happy to talk to them absolutely no absolutely talk are you sorry for if i make a comment or question in previous bond packages we've shown where dollars were being spent by district is that something you could bring back next week's meeting sure that way i think would help answer some questions yeah the other question i had earlier is could you explain what's going to happen to locust and elm because i feel like that's something that we're we're not seeing but it's going to have a significant impact on that area of town sure so so locust and elm so eagle is down this way on this map and you got locust and elm going north and south we're redoing all the utilities in that corridor right now so there's a lot of massive drainage infrastructure that has to go in right now and water wastewater infrastructure that is being replaced those items are actually under construction now they've just gotten started with the relocation of the franchise utilities so we've we've already had a couple of times we've had to close a couple of roadways because we found a gas line we didn't know was there so we're working that area ahead of tex dot coming in as soon as we relocate those utilities tex dot will come in and they will reconstruct elm and locust and they're not just starting going to the downtown area they're going to go all the way up to university drive upon completion of that project so we have an add-on to what's going on here on the south side of downtown we're also going to be going to the north side for about 90 through the plans on that one where we'll be relocating all the utilities and providing drainage infrastructure there with tex dot coming in right behind us as quickly as I can to repave all those roadways so utility reconstruction will last into next year roadway will start to get reconstructed through probably towards the end of next summer provided that the weather works with us and we're not fighting the weather like we have been they'll start repaving locust they'll work north university drive about that time we'll finish up utilities on elm and they'll turn around and they'll repave elm once both things are done then they will turn both those roads over to the city and they will become city roads for us to work with long term currently right now where we are is everything we want to do within that right away whether it's parking whether it's sidewalks it's drainage infrastructure other utilities we have to work with tex dot and get a permit or special permission to be in that area to do work going forward we'll have much greater control over our own destiny throughout the core of our town so what are the plans for robertson street robertson so you can see several areas on robertson where we've already gone through and taken a look at there is a segment that is a full reconstruction what's not on here is because it's a gis map it likes to draw from this point to this point the reconstruction of robertson actually extends further both directions because that's where utility lines will get torn up so we'll take all those utility lines up and then we'll repay that entire roadway rebuild it from bottom up and then other parts of robertson where the utilities aren't but the roadway still needs that kind of attention we'll do either mill and overlay or we'll also or we'll do the other just surface treatment so much of what we're doing throughout the city is also reflected in and danny knows a lot more than he's engrossed in something but danny has a truck that's going to come throughout the entire city of denton later this fall and that vehicle assesses the pavement its quality its condition it double checks these ocis that we've presented earlier what kind of condition are they in and it is across the city what we're actually going to have is more streets than we had from the previous one because there's been so much development in the interim since 2015 when the last survey was done so we'll get a chance to double check how right we are on where that oci is and it may change some of this some of that reconstruction may evolve yes darling would you say that 70 million dollars is this to be david or no is is it are we at where you wanted me to look yes oh okay because i'm not seeing it add up to 70 million it's only like i did um it's only saying 26.1 million so 70 million it encompasses the entire city so a few weeks back and i don't know if we still have a map up here okay i don't see it uh we showed a map of the entire city and their ocis so that 70 million addresses three neighborhoods or four neighborhoods three neighborhoods including southeast denton where it's ocis that are greater than 20 because we want to address the entire neighborhood at one time instead of what we've done in the past whereas you know we we worked here we worked there we went over here and we went down here and we didn't connect the dots in between so now you got neighbors who are extremely frustrated that well you were here then you went over here then you disappeared for two or three years and now you came back and you're in my front yard again what's going on so we're trying to put together a much better program to say if i'm going to be in the neighborhood i'm going to do the whole neighborhood at one time all utilities all infrastructure done not have to come back but for minor maintenance over the next 30 to 40 years so that's the goal that's across the city regardless of where you are now the problem we have is is if i just isolate those three neighborhoods that's about 35 million dollars worth of roadway work between those three neighborhoods when you expand that to the water wastewater infrastructure that almost doubles the cost the entire 70 million is citywide so we've isolated three neighborhoods and said okay we're going to do those regardless of what the oci is if it tells us if anything from a 45 oci and below tells us that needs to be totally reconstructed foundation up so those three neighborhoods would get that and then we would be looking at the remainder of the city's roadways that are under a 20 oci which means they're degrading rapidly so those roadways across the city would also get that pick and choose kind of methodology that was involved in the previous bond programs where we'd go hit this one and go hit that one and do this one and just all over the city that's where the other 35 million comes from so across the board we're taking care of all of the streets in the city of denton that have an oci of 20 or less and then we're targeting these neighborhoods because overall these three neighborhoods are in the worst overall condition and doing those three neighbors so we don't have to come back other than maintenance we don't have to come back and redo that sooner did you find it you knew the date and everything of course you did yes okay perfect so you can see these one of the options that we presented on the 20th was multiple options for how you reconstruct streets throughout the city and how much do you want to go i mean that's that's another option that you all have is how much do you want to recommend to council that we incorporate into just this segment of the of the roadway pond so one of the options was in the past we had done that kind of shotgun approach right we just wherever it was the lowest oci we went and did that and cut it off at a dollar amount and that's as far as we're going to go and that presented the problems that we're still working through today so staff's recommendation was that we go with a more of a hybrid approach between the two whereas that is we took the the seven different neighborhoods throughout the city that had the lowest overall oci and then we were looking at those to how far could those dollars go so if you did just those seven neighborhoods and didn't focus on any other street in the city you're at about 70 million dollars in roadway costs for all seven neighborhoods now the problem with that is that neglects a lot of roadways throughout the rest of the city that are at a 20 oci and lower some of those are in those more rural neighborhoods just on the border of the town some of them are in the older parts of the of the city where this roads have just been there for a long time without enough attention so those roadways would get neglected and they would just continue to degrade to the point where it would be just that much more expensive to redo those roads five or six years from now when another bond program might become the next option where we went with this as a staff was to come back and say let's propose a hybrid scenario where we take three neighborhoods or four whatever we could really work into a 70 million dollar focus on local streets work those three neighborhoods and again we chose those these right these over here these numbers were not by priority of worst while they were was just when we drew the map somebody said that's one two three and that's where it came from so if you actually looked at the overall ocis these three were the lowest ocis in it as far as a neighborhood overall oci then when you combine that with the 20 and under oci street so those roads that have a health score of 20 or less that would round out to another 30 million dollars so between these three we got to 70 million dollars in total expenses to read to read reconstruct those roadways so the 70 million for just southeast end you're right it doesn't equate because it is one component of the entire city that extends all the way out to its city limits thanks you know probably need that slide later on all right any other comments questions on southeast end okay do we all move on to mckinney thanks i appreciate that so last meeting we had some questions about mckinney and what it would cost to extend mckinney even further into the downtown area which we had also addressed we're working everything east of loop 288 because that's where the dollars we have currently funded we can reconstruct that piece of mckinney with the dollars available the problem that we have is when you bring loop 280 in 288 or go from loop 288 all the way over to woodrow the cost to rebuild that roadway today if we had dollars today would be roughly 22 million just in construction for that roadway now when i show this 53 million dollar number down here that's a lot of other things thrown into it that's an assumption that we wouldn't get to the constraint the actual construction of that for another 42 months if you gave me the dollars today so we've inflated that one percent per month over 42 months if you roll that back let's say i got construction i got construction dollars or approval to go to construction next year because it would take me at least a year to acquire all the rightaways at a minimum all the properties that we would need to get the right away full width all the way to woodrow it would take me a year at a minimum i'm going to add roughly three million dollars to that overall construction cost is that if you look at an annual rate one percent per month localized in the economy again we kind of talked about that before the inflational rate locally is roughly one percent per month that equates out to 12 and a half to 12.7 percent annually in total growth of the construction cost on just a one-year basis so one year out i'd be looking at adding roughly three million dollars to that construction cost then you add in the right away acquisition cost of about six million dollars that's an estimated cost there's nothing more than us having taken a good estimated you know a pretty good educated guess at it that's where we see that right away expense going once you start rolling in design costs as well as other factors that go into it staff time the variety of other expenses that go into just delivering a project qaqc survey geotech all the other items that's where you come up with roughly a 53 million dollar price tag to get this particular roadway in from loop 288 over to woodrow lane now there are some options yes ma'am so sorry i didn't realize i sounded so bad so in general what you're seeing here is what we'll still work to try to get additional funding from cog or some other players to make this work part of what we're also up against is when we go to the regional transportation council which is a council a subcommittee basically the national of the north central texas council of governments our metropolitan planning organization they they govern a lot of funding sources and avenues to funding that's where we're getting money for hickory creek for bonnie bray several other projects that we currently have like mayhill uh the southern end of bonnie bray mckinney right now they all funded those projects part of where their concern is is until you come up with a plan and you give me a timeline to actually require the right away because that's not going to be something they're going to throw money in for there'd be something we would have to find when you have all those items lined up and i can see your path to completion then i might consider it but they're also waiting to see if we actually do what we say we're going to do on mckinney east of loop 288 because east of loop 288 they were they were we were getting close to the point where they were going to pull that funding back and they had the authority to do that there was a 10-year window for those dollars to be spent on construction and we were right up against that window all the way up to was it september of this year so september of this year so we we beat that and started construction earlier this year but right now what there's what we're hearing just the rumblings in the background is i want to see you get this done before you start coming and asking me for more money out here they're not saying they won't but before they commit to that because this is all the other cities in the north central texas area that are a member of cog those groups are the same groups we got to go to bat with other folks to get the this kind of funding so we're competing with them they also have to be able to say because each city or large area because some areas compromise comprise multiple cities just because their communities are smaller they have a vote at the table on this council and they get to steer where that money goes so we definitely want to have projects that are valid ready to go so that we stand up against everybody else so that's where we are with mckinney as we look for where we go in the future it's absolutely on the radar we don't know that right now is where we can actually capitalize on getting those dollars to go as far as we can any questions i think my only question i guess would be um i did believe that state had most of right away for a lot of that in their acquisition you say this is the ls e are worse so it's as far as all the streets you brought to our attention is this the worst one because it seems like you've been talking these a lot this is me these are what our current estimates are at the intersections yeah so at the ends of the roadway where i basically have to construct my staff hates me hearing me say this especially the traffic engineers we're constructing parking lots to handle the traffic signal so i put it on red you got a parking somewhere but when you get to that point i'm at a level of service e throughout this quarter but especially at the two signals on both ends so a lot of that is the functionality of what the actual intersection is doing so part of these projects would be upgrading the intersection significantly to the point where we don't have that control problem okay but it is the worst street you presented to us as far as the intersections involves operationally yes i wanted to clarify that because that's what i've been saying this whole time and that's why i was really concerned that you didn't want to bring that to the committee no it was no it wasn't that i mean the the reality of that roadway is the funding constraints are a little tighter on that roadway than what we could get for other places because the other places they have a regional connection that really speaks to the regional transportation council where they're very interested in putting that that same amount of dollars they'll go a lot further with it because there is that impact and when you're having to work with multiple other cities and communities and agencies that are tied into that same council and they have a vote it's where is that council really going to let us go one of the issues that we have here with this roadway is you have constraints at the intersections today the limit for future capacity i have to get into it with pre-tem i'm not going to make a presumption but its growth is is not the same as what you're going to see down south so just because we see a level of service d today does not mean that's what we're going to see 20 years from now 10 years from now i mean you have a lot of development coming so we can choose to do one of two things we can react to the realities of today and then we hear a lot of what we're hearing today in the public which is there's a lot of construction going on and you're tearing up my roadway i'm having to fight around that construction or we can elect to look forward as strategically as possible and get ahead of it when now i don't have the same constraint but i can see what's coming and that's what we see in these areas hickory creek one of the biggest issues you have with hickory creek is when that road is widened then concerns we heard some concerns tonight about ryan and hobson some other roadways it allows those people who are absolutely using those roadways to go north to make a connection to come back south they they go straight south to hickory creek and they go to the sides and do where they need to go that's where we see the long-term benefit of that roadway versus a mckinney that's fairly landlocked a lot of the development already is what it is i mean and i agree and disagree but there's there's a lot of land south of mckinney that's going to be developed and there's a huge apartment complex going on probably i have to have an intersection it's kind of signal light there but it's there's just state actually has it designed to be six lanes so that was why i'm surprised the city is backing it down a lot of the reasons why the state had that designed at six lanes is there were some other things that were also considering your long-term planning they didn't have a expanded mayhill when they were looking at it as a six lane facility they had a lot of other things plugged in that were just hey this is what it is and it's not going to get any bigger there's no other connections coming that was what their plan was at the time now even they look at go back and relook at this thing periodically to make sure that hey long-term projections change i mean roadways that we thought years ago would have needed to be six lanes you look at it now and it really needs to be two to three lanes other roadways that we thought long term would be two lanes they're now needing to be today six lanes so is this a project that you are recommending beyond a bond five years from now is that what you're where we are right now yes and you're hoping by then you'll have but i i will tell you this that is also the that is what this body is for if if you guys want to push that into this mix then absolutely that's a recommendation you can make i agree it's a roadway that at some point absolutely needs to be done and that's something that you can recommend as a body to change into this mix of priorities i don't think i have any questions thank you yeah i have a question so how long is the construction of the east side of the thing going to take and is there anything we could do in this bond package that doesn't fully fund it but maybe get it ready for you know however long it takes to finish the east side or we can make a serious push to or can you pull the microphones here say it again so your question my question was twofold how long is the construction green light there it is how long is the construction on the east side of mckinney going to take and is there anything that we can do that would make us in a better position to petition the cog whenever that is complete in this bond without fully funding it so that that's an ongoing concern that we have you know some of the concerns i've heard about how would you fund growth to the south of mckinney well some of that would come back through other avenues whether it's sir uh roadway impact fees that would be required by the development to pay that as well as a perimeter street requirement the city currently has that they provide the perimeter streets or at least half of the perimeter streets when they put in their development along with other things we are currently designing 30 up to 30 percent designed that mckinney street all the way at the carol boulevard well beyond woodrow just for exactly what you're talking about when those opportunities present to be able to capitalize on those as quickly as possible there are some other avenues that we're we're looking at as well which would be federal funding some other projects that would help to push this along even further so we're looking at all of our options i don't want to sit on this project for five years absolutely not but the reality is we've got to explore all of our options and right now the outlook is we could get more funding quicker by not going the route of rtr funds or some of the other funds that would commit itself we'd be looking at some federal dollars and some other avenues plus allowing the development community to pay their way into this so we are doing the design work now and i answer your first question about the length of time that east the east half or the east side of mckinney is going to be under construction or under construction now you're looking at roughly two years of construction until it's complete thank you diane when we had a chat at paul's town hall i asked what it would take for five years and you said 300 million so going forward to the next five years if we if we fund this very worthy project in with our bond how many more bonds is the city going to have to present uh going forward five years are we going to have to do one every year do you think we can't i mean just talk to david about that one he's he's the finance guy i just know how to spend it he's the one who finds the money i just spend it so no i'm saying that facetiously you know i'm very cognizant i live here and i pay taxes here as well so i'm very cognizant about where those dollars go one of the concerns that we have going forward is is it's really up to the citizens of dentin how far do you want to go which is why i'm asking so so if we if we could put it into a pretty package with a bow because so far i have not heard how much our taxes would go up a year my my my weird little attorney friend who loves numbers said oh let me crunch it and so we're looking at maybe 60 to 80 right so um i think this might be the easiest way to show it so right now we're looking at a four cent uh four cents max debt rate that service tax rate increase on a hundred thousand dollar home that's forty dollars a year so a two hundred thousand dollar home is eighty dollars a year our average home close to two hundred fifty thousand dollars would be you know a hundred dollars a year yeah which which is almost nothing you know in the grand scheme oh nobody nobody be annoyed that i just said that by the way because where i'm going is i've been here 10 years i've been in denton county 30 years and i know the numbers for the county because of certain experiences i had last year so i know what the projected growth is here and and it's it's going to come whether whether we like it or not so this isn't the only other project you have that you'd like to have rolled in to this bond correct it's okay time from an engineer's perspective i would love to go build all of it there you go that's what i want 100 i would love to go do it tomorrow the realities of both the marketplace the availability of contractors do limit us i know but if you're asking what i would just love to do and i had my wish yes i'd love to go build it all today okay so i'm i'm going to take it from a to z then okay so what would it what would it take to present a bond package to the citizens of denton that would fix our roads bring in lighting i know the crime stats for mayhill now right to protect the citizens of denton ensure their quality of life we're the ones paying the taxes for now and the future tell me how to do it that's your job well that's david's job you know i mean i ultimately that's gonna the conversation on what the total amount of debt that the committee is comfortable with is going to be a conversation for the committee to have obviously the charge from the city council was to come forward with a 210 million dollar program they the the starting point for that was to say what what number can we have to stay under our total tax rate so you know if the desire from the committee was to go over up to whatever number ultimately you want to go up to there would just be the increase over our total tax rate and then the increase over the debt service tax rate but i will point out you know as even when we talk about a four percent tax rate increase as i mentioned earlier that doesn't mean every single year of the program it's going to be a four percent four cent tax rate increase that's just at some at one point during one year based on our current assumptions we may get up to that point so just as a caveat to say it's not like you're going to have the hundred dollars every single year of the program but as far as the total high that we're looking at the total bucket of dollars that's ultimately just a level of of first with the committee for your recommendation to council of what how how large you want to go and council's ultimate decision on what is on the election and then up to the voters on if they're comfortable with going up to that amount in the ensuing tax rate that would be required i've also um i'll get with you todd i've also found some grants that i'll bet you haven't looked at yet okay thank you so much okay any more discussion on uh mckinney or southeast denton i just have one question for todd on mckinney what is it about that section of and this is maybe just a stupid question but that section of mckinney between the loop and woodrow that makes it potentially eligible for cog money how does it meet parameters that well and that's you've hit on a challenge there for us to get to woodrow it has to fall into certain specific categories because it's not tying into a state road from a state road so that's where we've been pushing it all the way over to element locus because right now there's still state roads which would be an even bigger number than what you're seeing here so that's the other challenge is those avenues that we'd be looking at funding from the cog would be more in the way of active transportation some of the sidewalk more sidewalk context-sensitive grants that are out there and it would be cobbling a lot of things together to make it work does that answer your question i was wondering is if i mean if it went on over to element locus you could right see it and that's why we're designing it what's the timeline there would we have taken possession of those two roads before that's the challenge this cog yes most likely yes because at the pace we're going with them and locust we should have those reconstructed in the next two two and a half years about the same time we'd be ready to go to construction i'll render grants on that refund right free you just brought up a point about five years three years whatever it's going to be the whole push to get cogs may be you know a lost cause at that point so we've waited for nothing it costs an increase but when you drive down that road i all the time i always see bicyclists uh people walking and they don't have sidewalks on most of that street true they're on the shoulders and that's that's the challenge for a cog when you're trying to get that kind of money it needs to be connected and it's that whole area has for the cog to really buy into putting that kind of money on it onto a project it has to have been designed which is really my reasoning for saying we shouldn't wait for cogs because by the time you do that we will no longer have 77 so there won't be a connection and cogs probably won't do it so i mean it's for me this section between woodrow and luke 28 is really the important section the other section the city's been putting in sidewalks upgrading the sides i mean i remember we did that four or five years ago so now there's some nice sidewalks over there so i mean it's it's you know could still be improved of course like everything but the really major sections between woodrow and 288 that's the dangerous part um and i would really suggest beyond this one well that's a topic for the next item on the agenda so david and it will move on to item 2c which is report receive report hold discussion and give staff direction regarding um 2019 bond program prioritization so this agenda item is is really an offshoot of the conversation that you just had uh just to give give the committee the first your first opportunity to discuss amongst yourself where you how you prioritize the project um you know in advance of us of the discussion of what is where's the line of what's above the line of a little line uh for whatever the total funding amount is so that's the intent of this of this item prior obviously prior to the meeting today i sent out a um a survey an online survey to everyone to complete um the the intent of that survey was was nothing more than to have to have the following slide that gives everyone a baseline for your discussion it was only meant to enhance your discussion nothing final about the online survey um so we have the results of the survey on the next slide 15 of the 19 members completed the survey as of uh just before the meeting today and obviously the aggregate results of the survey are next we'll make one note uh the only of dollar amount essentially that's not included on the survey was public art uh you know ultimately for the recommendation to council you discussed public art last time that will be a factor in the total amount dollar amount that we look toward so public art is a consideration to take into account as you're considering all the other projects but that wasn't on the survey that was sent out can i ask on the public art we said to stay at two percent and our other alternative is no public art or four percent right those are or or we or four percent we also said you can change the um we could recommend changes to the policy so that really opens up some other options so here are the results of the survey i just want to emphasize the 15 of the 19 this is not the entire committee that that took the survey but um and again just intended to to to enhance your conversation today but you can see the top you know five or six items are the ones that we've been discussing quite a bit uh police station renovation number one fire station eight number two uh then the substation and then you can see the street rehab program uh was the fourth uh highest ranked amongst the committee um and i think as we've had the discussions we've seen the importance importance of that and bonny bray and hickory creek following um and you can see the rest of the items there so again this was um just just an aggregate of the of those who took the survey and um hopefully will help your your prioritization conversation uh i'll kind of open it up to the committee amongst yourself have the discussion obviously we're available for any questions i was just wondering how you got you know the numbers are like everybody's number one got a certain number of yeah yeah it was essentially the the basic survey monkey kind of algorithm and number one got a certain number of points number two got a certain number of points and then there were aggregate points and then it was ranked on this point doesn't add up to 15 in any way right yeah yeah so one question i have for the committee is this these survey results are based on the previous known estimates for the police station renovation and police substation so i think one of the questions we have to ask ourselves knowing what we know today that's new information what are your thoughts on how does that impact the this uh prioritization with these results not not for me that's it you just i agree with you i do i i'm in favor of the police station and the fire department only though i don't know i don't know i just can't do it because i can't see a breakdown for the street rehab program to justify body ray gray and history hickory creek again they're getting more money poured into those streets than everybody else i just i'm not in favor or ryan i don't get it okay um i have a question hickory creek is receiving city funds county funds state funds so if the city does not fund hickory creek creek they've lost everything else right so and is it true for bonnie bray as well yes correct so those two and queen i understand where you're coming from with that but if not funding means that we're losing other funding then that's not good for our city but it shouldn't have been in the first place i don't know what you mean but it shouldn't be in the first place this is three different governmental bodies are deciding local governments municipality local government county and state government but they're the city's requesting help from these different governments to get money and what they should have been trying to do is give money for the underserved they would have definitely poured out more money no the county would not have poured out money for a city in no for a city straight there are 44 cities in denton county and every single one of them would have been asking for it hickory creek road was given out for a particular need that was seen as both municipal and county and that was due to county commissioner hugh colman that was his road money that he put in because of the deaths that occurred on hickory creek and you can go back and look at the discussions on commissioner's court in order to understand why that one in particular now bonnie bray that's a whole other there's a whole lot of other reasons by the way that road construction is interrupting my life right now as i'm trying to get from my house to presbyterian but i'm doing it but it works it's that circle that they're putting in it's a whole lot more that's going on there but one of the things that i think we need to keep in mind is all the other monies that are brought in because the city is considering or is in the process of with these roads and as a committee we need to remember that well it's it's letting you leverage the dollars so you if you can spend 27 million and get 111 million dollars in roads that's pretty good leverage of your money and then that's kind of what pushes those up right absolutely so i i think this is really very helpful to our work um and uh what i would love to see uh perhaps for our next meeting is taking this chart assigning the dollar figure for each piece with a running total in the next column so that we begin to see where those lines might fall i think that will help us get to the decisions that need to be made i i do think that in light of the conversation that it is uh earlier that it is appropriate to put a below the line uh series of things into this that if we want to put below the line mckinney and say okay here's here's 50 million dollars for mckinney that if you want to factor it in this is what it's going to take that number to but but we've got we've got a line here that i think we want to be looking at and then we ask if there's anything that that we want to to move above the line or move below the line we can we can definitely do definitely do that um we need to do it based on this on the rankings that we have here or if there's as a result of this good discussion anything moves around we can we can do that i have a question i wound up going back to the net 2030 plan recently and i was reading through that and uh guys it was i have the page written down at page 173 they were suggesting to include the cost of regular road maintenance and rehabilitation and estimating the cost of building and widening roads can you susan can you move closer to the bike please yes for sure try to say it again so what it said on page 173 of the dent 2030 plan it was you know a suggestion was to include the cost of regular road maintenance and rehabilitation and estimating the cost of building and widening roads is that something that we've been doing i didn't miss that did i uh quite uh some conversations of that offline so let me make sure i just understand where you're going so if you're asking are we factoring in to account that there's an ongoing maintenance piece to every single road that goes into the ground yes that there are growth predictions that's a council work session item that we actually had last year uh some of what diane was talking about earlier the 300 million dollars we had talked to council about was also tied to that as you improve those roadways you would also need to increase the roadway maintenance budget on an annual basis from 15 million to 20 to 25 over time as those roadways were rebuilt and we got to the point where we were only ever dealing with 10 of our roads in a reconstructed state instead of 20 to 25 like we are today so that 300 million would shoot all those roadways to the point where we only have about 20 to 25 percent roadways to the point where we only have about 10 percent of our roads that are ever in need of reconstruction but it has that associated long-term cost of the overall budget for the street maintenance would continue to go up as those roadways come in and then of course as continued development comes into place those things have to factor into that equation as well but but maintenance is not part of the bond the bond is one time yes it's kind of a separate issue yeah maintenance is really where you see the vast majority of those tax dollars go is into the maintenance it's that recurring cost year over year whereas the bond dollars are that one time completely overhaul it or fix it that we have a a much more robust streets maintenance program like we do currently but we didn't for years then your actual expense over time for reconstructing roadways will go down now inflation and other things will offset some of that but your overall total reconstruction and a bond package would go down if you could hold it in today's dollars at some point you would see more of a steady state provided you didn't have continued growth i guess i guess kind of where my concern has been is kind of and i know we're behind on fixing up our streets it just almost feels like maybe we don't have the money to keep up with what we have so i'm just not sure if we're bringing in enough new revenue to pay for you know future maintenance costs so you know yeah we can build them but will we be able to maintain them further down the line adding more streets to what already looks like a pretty heavy load so the vast majority of our just one thing to consider the vast majority of the lane miles that get added are when these residential neighborhoods come into the city so brand new neighborhoods build more roadway than we build to connect them and really what we're building in these bond packages are those connectors because if we don't then what ends up happening is people go through the neighborhoods and they over utilize that pavement for the same volume of traffic that's trying to get through these level of service e intersections d's and f's we do have some throughout town as well so that traffic just tries to find a different pathway now and you see that especially in in south denton where neighborhoods were utilized as a way of maybe i'll put in a lot of cut through traffic and make it very hard to wind through so that i can keep people from cutting through it's had the reverse effect especially with gps and ways and all these other things that now people use on their phone to say well i don't want to sit at this traffic light because there's a lot of stopping but my gps tells me now i can go through this neighborhood and wind my way all the way over to here i don't live here i just want to get over to here and we see that a lot so what we don't have especially on the south side of town but throughout denton there's a good network of arterials and collector roadways which is what we're talking about with hickory creek and bonnie bray mckinney i mean there's a whole host of roadways beyond just that that tie those together and relieve the parking lot scenario at a red light so that people do stay on those roadways that are built for that traffic and keep them out of our subdivisions so it's as much a safety concern it helps to minimize the total maintenance dollars that goes on the larger portion of our roadways which is in those neighborhoods from just a pure amount of them and localize them onto a select few that collect the vast majority of traffic and put the dollars there does that help yes it does okay okay so one question that came up earlier today is knowing we know now about the police station renovation and the police substation we were given direction of looking at a couple different options 100 million to 210 million dollars so i know we know today about those costs going up i think the question is do we have to look at going to a higher number as an option a 230-ish number and likewise should we look at do we look at something lower in the 180s or 190s realizing you know whatever we just recommend to city council is going to you know if we add 20 million dollars to the package that's about a one and a half cent increase to the overall tax rate for debt service or do we go lower and stay well below that effective tax rate and keep it in the four to three and a half cent you know realize we have to sell this package to the citizens so any discussion on that i would like that this is related but as we look at what we're going to spend we also need to look at how we're going to pay for it and the legislature took a bite out of ways that we used to be able to get creative paying off bonds can you just give us the cliff notes version of that you're talking about the three and a half percent rollback or well yeah and i'm talking about accelerated stripping us of the opportunity to pay off debt early and so refund yeah advanced advanced refundings that is that is just change as we make our do our financial planning that was a part of the 2017 tax law nationwide we no longer can do advanced refunding so that does limit our capabilities when interest rates get low on options we can do to free up some of our debt service so that definitely is something that all cities have been dealing with for the past couple years and will continue to be a constraint on our flexibility in regards to the i'm just assuming you're talking about the three and a half percent rollback that doesn't have a direct impact on the debt service rate because the rollback rate is calculated specifically on our m and o rate our maintenance and operations rate so it does have some knock-on effects obviously with our debt service tax rate on the maintenance that goes along with with some of these projects as we look at a police substation a police station we have other other demands that are that are increasing the amount of officers that we need so there are plenty of discussions that we're going to be having on our m and o rate over the next few years and constraints that the three and a half percent rollback will have on us but the debt that we issue does not have that direct impact because the rollback rate is is directly related to the m and o rate and we also can't refinance like we used to david i think that um it might be good just to mention how much current debt the city has and how much of that will be paid off by the end of this particular package not not not adding new debt but what we currently carry and what the what the payoff will be over the course of the next six years so here's an example of some documentation that that we that we can choose to put forward with our bond program this year this is information that will be required by the legislature at least some version of this this is a draft form that we developed internally in future bond elections by the state this is not we are we do not have to abide by the new legislation with this bond package because we're calling the election before september 1st but it's an example to hit on the question that you asked exactly our total debt service on all of our outstanding debt property tax paid debt is 261 million dollars and that means that's the debt service principal and interest that will pay over the next 20 years to retire all of our all of our debt and you can see here that the amount of debt and interest will will issue with the hundred and 210 million dollar package is about 316 million so those are those are just the total numbers the way that that actually impacts us is right now our debt service on that total debt that we have outstanding for property tax back debt is about 25 million dollars that's what we pay annually in our debt service payments for that debt you can see and this is just our outstanding debt that amount continues to fall each year until we get to that until we get to 20 years out where we retire all of our outstanding debt and ultimately what happens is you know as we get as we start going down and we decrease our debt service payments for our outstanding debt we would then make up that difference and stay about at that 25 million dollar range with the new debt issuances and obviously go a little go above that 25 million dollar range as we talk start talking about the increased debt service tax rate but i think one of the things that we heard was that by at that six years from now of the existing debt about 98 million would be paid off over the course of the next six years over the course of the next year so about 98 million dollars paid off in six years and then the important follow on to that is the the entire 210 million dollars obviously is not going to be issued the first year it's going to be issued gradually so you're going to have 98 over six years 98 million dollars gradually coming off of our debt service payments and then we'll be adding that 210 million dollars in total issuance over those six years as well so that's why it's not all just doubling our total debt uh debt service is not doubling it's it's a gradual effect that keeps us around our debt service tax uh total debt service tax so it's a great point when considering our total bond issuance that clear to everyone yeah we we've asked david to come back next time showing maybe a third color what that if you phased in the new debt what that would look like absolutely yes i'll pick a different one than blue and red green another question i'd like to echo mr davis who spoke earlier i've kind of wondered this myself i think i know the answer but i'm going to ask it anyway um so considering that we're currently updating the mobility plan why are we widening streets prior to updating that so there are several things going on all at one time so we did do an area study where we looked at the entire quadrant from 2181 all the way back over to 35w we went from vintage and hobson all the way south to crofford road yeah so we looked at the entire area inclusively because we we knew where that was going and the other thing to consider as well uh i know i heard concerns earlier about well why are you widening a brush creek road when you're getting ready to do a mobility plan update on the current mobility plan brush creek road is a major arterial it's listed that way today that's not going to change the only thing that changes is the connection directly from hickory creek over to brush creek and there are vast majority reasons for that one is it is the shortest distance to span over the floodplain plus that's where the vast majority of development is coming in today i mean we're seeing those act and i think that map is still over here where you can see development coming in and it still doesn't reference developments that are coming in that we are having ongoing meetings with but they just haven't submitted an application so there's development coming into this area that absolutely ties into that and went into that study that projects all the way out to 2040 what does traffic look like so the mobility plan in that area is not going to change dramatically but it does look at our regional partners as well argyle to the south the impacts to crofford road and what they're just able to maintain long term as a city same with the county uh text on as well they're all at the table as we're discussing what does this area look like so this was definitely not done in a vacuum uh the results that are in this area study would also be going into the future mobility study that's currently ongoing it's not like it would be thrown away as a separate study it would be conclusively part of it on that uh on that traffic study you mentioned yes do you happen to know what the projected population is in that south dentin area that the traffic study was based on i can get that for you off the top of my head no i don't it also plugs into some projected development that would be on the west side of i-35w as well and that would be a prime connector in that area too sure we can get that number for you it's in the no that's fine i think what i'm wondering is whether the uh the amount of population that the traffic study is assuming is aligned with the amount of growth that the uh financial projections are doing and that sort of thing or whether those are are disparate so i'd have to get a little bit more finite on your question as far as growth goes i know the projected volumes we use are in line with what the council of governments uses and that has traditionally been very very conservative we typically see growth at a much greater rate than what it actually goes into the study so we're projecting lower than what most likely will happen and much like david was talking about in the future expenses along with debt service and everything else that gets combined it's the same thing where we're trying to project traffic volumes i mean we the studies that we utilize today the growth patterns we're using today are based on what's happened over the last five years we typically update that every five years it could be a little bit longer depending on where you are we're running off of a very conservative estimate but what we have seen over the last 10 to 15 years is that growth rate is faster than what we're actually anticipating so instead of doing what you're absolutely seeing tex dot do right now so they're they're widening roadways after the fact we're trying to be very strategic and that's why we're not saying well let's widen every single road in the city of denton to four lanes we're saying where are those prime drivers where are they coming we're seeing development coming we have to get ahead of it so if i don't know exactly what you're looking for specifically at the moment and i don't know if that's david answering it or me okay i think we can definitely i think we to your point we could bring back and just show in that area what is the growth assumptions in that document and obviously compare them to the growth assumption that we're using for for our total ab and just and see what that is i think the difficulty it's not going to be as precise as we know we don't get with our a rss value projections down to that quadrant but i think we can definitely at least show what they're projecting in that in that area versus our total projections and look at other other factors involved in the plan as well as far as growth compared to what we're projecting yeah i think that would do that my my concern is that if if you overestimate the growth for the traffic needs then you end up overbuilding sooner than you need to to some of the citizen comments earlier and if you uh on the other side if you underestimate or rather if you overestimate how much the assessed value is going to grow compared to the roads then then you run into funding issues so i just want to understand if those are in line with each other we we can definitely do that i would just is not an exact science it won't be question david what is what is the uh the interest rate that's paid on the bonds what is the benchmark rate for that is it based on treasuries or what what what are we kind of looking at for those well it's based so it's right now we have in 2020 a three uh 3.75 interest rate and then 4.5 in the out years 2021 on and it's really just based on our bondage which is right now we have a bond issuance next week um where we're getting very low rates so that's why we kind of we've said okay if we go um just an increase on what we're getting now next year and then from two years two years from now it would be we don't want to we don't want to be too aggressive and think that we're going to keep these low rates we have now over the life of the bonds or the of us selling the bond so that's that's where we are right now but right now for what we're selling next week is even is lower than that 3.75 that was one of my my thoughts about the question that pat had asked is do we want to raise the amount of the bond or lower it my kind of high level thought is you know debt has never been cheaper than it is today costs are going up you know exponentially as time goes on the growth is coming uh highways are being expanded you know outer loops are being proposed so the growth is going to be here whether you know we like it or not and there's no time like the present to fund projects that that you know are cheaper now than they ever will be now i'll just use that as an opportunity also to just kind of reinforce you know when we say 210 million dollars and we estimate when we're going to sell those bonds over six years say our av growth next year is higher than five percent or those interest rates are still even lower than we're projecting it gives us some of that balance to issue more next year depending on the projects and those discussions are we one ones that we have with city council every year as we look to issue debt great point has the city ever considered many bonds um like a large number of bonds no it's actually where the citizens contribute to the bond so they actually fund their own community just like we did in the war bonds i actually did one of those way way back it it's it's kind of fun so that citizens can can change it's a nightmare to manage yes just go out and ask because it seems to be a growing concept across the country again and like i said it's a great i think it's a great way for the citizens to buy in but it's hard to manage i'm i'm not familiar so i can't speak to them right now but we can definitely look into sure yeah it's kind of cool okay any other comments or questions regarding the 230 option or the 180 option the reason i'm i feel like we need to get some you know feedback on that is and thank you nathan is if we're going to give staff direction to bring back some variants of options for us to consider um you know using what tim laid out which i think is prudent i think would be helpful to get a sense are we willing to go above 210 or do we want to stay at 210 can we take a straw bill wait wait wait i'm only kidding no you're only kidding i mean we can i mean we can in the committee we can basically do anything we want until we make our final recommendation and that's you know so yeah we could do a straw bill but my my question is did the council give us a firm number like we should not go above 210 or is that something that we in the committee can adjust the the resolution itself forming the committee said to uh to look at a bond package not to exceed 210 million dollars but the um the message that we received from council as we talked through the process was if the committee wanted to go above that there would be that additional step of going back to the the council and asking them to amend the resolution so that would be the mechanism to get there right okay so that that was my question because i couldn't remember what if it was a hard and fast 210 or if it was we'd just have to take that extra step to say hey we've had these discussions because of west mckinney or various other states so southeast dent and do we have the time to take that extra step to go back to council to amend the resolution uh we're very close and like i'm bring up the schedule i can bring it up now or wait till the next item but we're very close on time all the way around if we were going to do that it would be to happen at the next meeting were we also tasked to come up with a 100 million dollar option the the task was to consider 100 million dollar option uh previously we've we've shown kind of what that would look like we can definitely bring that back that could be it's running different scenarios at different amounts is no no problem so we could bring back 100 we could kind of bring say you want that forwardization list we could do 100 150 180 210 as many as you'd like if it would assist your conversation and so the intent of the 100 million dollars that that was derived from saying that would keep us at our effective tax rate throughout the life of the program whereas the 210 would keep us below our total tax rate i think one of the things that might also be helpful to the committee is if we could have some historical data on what previous bonds have uh suggested as the tax rate increase because if we're going to have a bond that is at five cents six cents is what the what that number might be how does that compare with what we've asked for previously um because i that needs to be a factor in terms of our decision of what will the voters support and and there's going to be a there's going to be a pretty important line that we'll have to determine as to what we think the voters will support we can bring that back obviously previously we discussed the three cent that was associated with right i think not only what was asked for what was suggested what actually actually happened did we actually end up raising taxes and and and my only my only differentiation on that is because of when the voters went to vote they were off they were they were going in with a three cent in mind or whatever that number might be we may not have done that but if it was if we're talking about something it might double what we've ever asked for before how will the we i think we have to ask how will the voters respond to that i would also like to see how those items were listed on the ballot how those bond proposals were worded on the ballot along with whatever the numbers are and how we propose i know this one is proposed to be broken down to a certain point it's not just all or nothing right two propositions public safety facilities and roadway infrastructure so in 2012 it was only only a street rehab program so that was just one proposition whereas in 2014 we had four propositions that we've gone through previously in that right here so we can we can bring that back and show you in more detail exactly what the language looked like and just kind of of 2014 we had that three three cent tax increase that we didn't realize because our assessed value came in higher than our anticipations the worst case scenario and in 2005 it was four four cents that we estimated to go to so just to summarize tam asked for historically what we've asked for in the past in terms of tax increase right right and then patty you asked how the exact wording that was used in the previous bond elections and then randy's and then randy what actually happened right yeah right are you so there's a lot of different language you have election ordinances bond language proposition language are you most concerned with the bond language itself i'm i'm interested in what's on the ballot ballot line because that's what john q voter is going to read what we have to sell yeah okay because how things are worded can be very important okay we can bring that back tracy good with all that okay any other army class yeah if i could real quick just get your feedback on something you probably have a window to to get something to the council next tuesday it's gonna be the last time they're gonna meet before you can you meet again and are you wanting us to take a resolution there and get their feedback as to whether the committee should be looking at or is is able to consider something over the 210 because because of the wording of the resolution if so we'll get that done tomorrow but i think to be to do our our duty which is to consider in my opinion to give our law enforcement and fire department the resources maybe do the job we have to at least consider it if we can't if we need a resolution to go above 210 then i think we need to ask for permission to do that yeah will you all agree with that statement anybody disagree we're not not making a recommendation i'm just asking mother may i okay we'll get that handled tomorrow then okay thanks in light of the the new in light of the new figures that have come in i think we would be remiss if we didn't ask to consider more and that already includes the 100 to 210 so the request to go if it's more than 210 that's correct okay great thanks okay all right uh we think we have one more agenda i don't i already have it up based on the discussion so if you want to move over to that agenda so uh next week we have uh more discussion more public comment um earlier today we discussed do we need as a finance task force and everyone's in welcome to attend i will if you show up i will buy you lunch uh well so the question we had earlier today is do we need does that finance task force need to meet again my suspicion at this point is probably not would you all agree and i'm asking the whole committee here you want to i think we're going to get enough information for the full committee to have the conversation we need to have can we all the information discussed earlier i can bring to them okay so six o'clock meeting i just saved you a meeting david i appreciate it um and so we meet the 18th and then the 25th is hard yeah date where we have i think i think we can feel certain we won't have action next week um but i think we'll have a lot of good discussion and then the 25th is really our our hard deadline um to to get to a point of a of a decision so um yeah hopefully we have a good conversation next week to get there okay i would just like to say i i'd like to see us at this next meeting be at a point that we have a preliminary uh plan that we will take final action on on the 25th and i i think we ought to get we ought to attempt at this next meeting to get pretty far down the road to that final decision right so then should then we kind of have a lot on the plate right so i mean if you're not if we're not going to have a task force meeting then should we maybe consider allotting more time or allowing for an earlier start time i mean just the amount of time just a thought any thoughts on that six o'clock is that a hard is there anything early or hard for someone else to make five o'clock you couldn't or could not can you do 530 okay all right 530 would be better all right let's do 530 okay unless you're strongly object to 530 we'll go for 530 great perfect okay all right are we voting on each project individually is that how we're going to do it and say we're going to do this and we're not going to do it because i feel like we need to be going through it like that because well i want to put east bikini on there obviously but i i want to find out maybe ryan for example at the bottom of kind of that list of what people were rating maybe ryan is one that can be removed to put on another project or to keep our costs within a certain budget or thing so that's why i'm wondering that we're doing the next meeting we're going to actually could i if i could speak to that what i think will happen because what if we get the projects with the dollar amounts in the order that we have here then then we see this is where the line is at 180 this is the line at 210 230 then we're able to get to exactly what you what you're talking about i don't think we have to necessarily be debating the top items on the on that unless there's some driving reason to do that but we can get to what are the what are the ones that that are above or below the line so with that question can we do one more survey that includes mckinney street i'd like to know kind of kind of where it would rank in the list if the committee would like that i can i can send another survey include what the price amount is yes that that yeah i don't think it's going to change anything but it's okay is that make sure that is everyone comfortable with the way the survey was handled as far as just seeing kind of a summary view not anonymous to some degree obviously when you when you all get together the discussion amongst everyone is open okay great for instance on ryan road there's a range right on ryan road and we didn't really have a chance the way the survey was the last time to you know put ourselves into a range at the four million or the 14 million i could do different amounts four to four to four to eight eight to twelve thank you okay everyone track with what he just said okay all right any other questions comments concerns all right i'll take a motion to adjourn second have a nice evening thanks everyone