Jun 15, 2023 Special Citizens Bond Advisory Committee on 2023-06-15 6:00 PM (AMENDED on 06-13-2023)

And we will call this meeting of the special citizens bond advisory committee to order The first item is agenda item a consider approval of minutes, which you should have seen in your backup. They were electronic That you could have clicked on to read through consider approval of the minutes for both June 7th last week's meeting 2023 and June 10th, which was the tour meeting any motions So I'm out second I think we need to get in the living McAdams had the second Any discussion on favor raise your right hand All opposed same sign that passes Moving on to item one B receive a report and hold discussion regarding the following one and inclusion of inclusive playground to aquatics facility Three proposed improvements of to Riddell Street and Mingo Road for proposed implementation of railroad quiet zones Five Oakland Street and upstream detention stormwater drainage infrastructure six pecan Creek tributary drainage improvement project phase three and four and seven public art and just As a note as we jump into these one after another similar processes last time where we'll hear the staff presentation We'll have an open QA facilitated by myself Then we'll go to some small group conversations as needed and then jumping back into a whole group Conversation that we can have discussion Q&A as needed after that for each project and we'll move on to the next one So starting with an inclusive program playground We have a presentation I Good evening everyone, my name is Finn say Espinosa I'm the assistant director for the park and rec department in charge of planning and operations And I'm here to provide you tonight's presentation for the inclusive playground with me I have Chris Escoto park planner and Mia Macy. She's our adaptive recreation Person that is working with us To go through this process So I know I've taken all the classes, you know, he was not supposed to read the inclusive I mean a PowerPoints of verbatim, but since this is a subject we're on for people In the in the recordings can be watching this that are might be vision impaired. I'm just gonna Touch through almost all of these points So 25% of people living with disability or living live with a disability and less than 3% of Disabilities are related to orthopedic impairments 90% of people Say communities should offer an all-inclusive playground for all physical and cognitive abilities a little over half of the families who have a child with a disability are unable to play in a park as often as they would like and 92 percent of disabilities are not visible So these excerpts are straight out of our park master plan that was adopted last year So the first one is the graph on the left What are the biggest challenges didn't faces now and in the future for parks and recreation as you can see the largest one is sustained growth and second is accessibility and adaptive play Close thirds or funding and connectivity which ties into last week's presentation And on the right in the word cloud What is the one word that you would use to describe how you envision the park system in the future? So the largest response there as you can see is the word accessible and the second largest responses are larger and inclusive So looking toward 2040 the committee wants a park system to be larger accessible more inclusive and better connected We're all on the same page, which is great oops Okay the purpose Although the city has accessibility at all playgrounds the proposed playground will be the first of its kind in Denton So what are we talking about here using using universal design to provide a sensory rich environment that enables children To develop physically socially and emotionally in the same area in the same space We're also going to provide equal access and play for all abilities Support physical and cognitive cognitive development social integration family engagement community awareness and acceptance We're going to take a little pause and show a little video Inclusive playground 56 percent of families who have a child with a physical learning sensory Medical or complex disability or need report that they are unable to play in a park as often as they'd like Imagine a place where everyone regardless of their abilities can come together for a true universal play experience The all-inclusive playground will be designed so play knows no boundaries a space that encourages challenges and inspires emotional and social connections You Thank you Ryan and team for providing that So the the area we're talking about the park we're talking about Putting this is at North Lakes and the current conditions the playground there was installed in 2002 15,000 square feet and our Standard to replace the playgrounds in the city of Denton is between 15 and 20 years and as you can see we're there So the site info what I did was I highlighted in the green what the Areas that are available now for play and the possibilities of expansion in the blue And The blue area to the north those trees have died So if we expand there the trees to the south would shade it and the area to the south you could see That I drew around the tree, but the tree provides shade on Maybe half of it And the parking lot was evaluated in the ADA assessment that was performed But and it's not included in this scope, but it will be included in the city's five-year capital budget And it will be aligned along with this project So we're proposing three point four five million dollars for this playground for around a twenty to thirty thousand square foot play area Using universal design to hit the sensory stimulation and equipment cognitive and physical components to be included So what we've done we've been touring playgrounds around North, Texas that have other cities that have done this and Most recently last Friday. We took our managers supervisors playground inspectors is planner city stuff over to visit some of these So and I put I ranked them in order from from lowest dollar amount to the highest dollar amount But as you can see they're all over the place depending on what amenities are included Like the first one right here two million dollars fifteen thousand square feet with a seven thousand square foot splash pad in 2019 dollars The next one in Fort Worth was a dream park. We've visited this one a couple times for a million for fifty thousand fifty seven thousand square feet in 2018 dollars and a lot of that fifty thousand square feet is just turf like Sawed Casey's playground, this is a very well done playground included two plus million dollars in twenty thirteen dollars for a twenty thousand square foot playground and a thirteen hundred square foot pavilion Which didn't include the restroom that you can see on the picture on the right in the middle behind those two structures Farmers branch playground that's not built yet, but it will be this year or early next Five and a half million dollars for eighteen thousand square foot playground and that one is gonna have glowing amenities as you can see Which is pretty awesome The one in Iowa five point six million dollars in twenty twenty two dollars 15,000 square feet a miracle field which we're also working on and a fishing pier So Grand Prairie by far is the best one we've seen to date Phase one only and it's huge So six and six point six million dollars for phase one They have an eight acre lot, but the playground itself is thirty to forty thousand square feet because they built a amenities of phase two areas within phase one, but not quite all the way and the one in Mesa, Arizona Is seven point nine million in twenty twenty seventeen dollars for a nine thousand square foot playground and an eighteen thousand square foot splash pad So again, this would be our first one in Denton that's all inclusive using Universal Design and Our director mr. Packen couldn't make it this week, but I mean ready the redbird he says let's build this Any questions Presentation Come back here Yeah, we don't have any questions, but can I go to the playground in the in Grand Prairie? Yes, sir Where is the one in Fort Worth? One second Bring the playground expert. This is Chris's project by the way How's it going guys? So that's located over there by the Fort Worth Zoo Close to the rose garden just right across if you're familiar with the train that runs around downtown That's that's that park location By the community not by the city So there are some sponsors. So when you walk up to that to that playground, you do see a big Sponsor plaque that there's different tiers. So we do still Anticipate doing that here. So we are going to have sponsorship packages that have that opportunity But I'm not familiar with the financing on the back end, but it did have funding from outside Correct and it's currently known as that Got a question over here Having been having been to the Grand Prairie one Some of the things that are included in that one is They've got additional acre or part of the acreage where they're putting in and have in The not a torium type the indoor You know slides they're also looking toward putting in a hotel as part of it It was funded a lot of it by donations and matching donations from say company a if you'll give me X then I will match you dollar for dollar so if You're going to want to do one of these What is the one saying about either go long or go big and yeah, okay. Thank you Look into really doing it because if you want your sustainability you want your growth Put it someplace where it does have it and based on what I've seen at the North Lakes Park I Don't think you'd really get your bang for your bucks and people wouldn't really be coming so you know just Kind of of that, but do you agree on the dollar match ideas do you agree on? Having sufficient acreage out there. Maybe it's just because I don't know where the boundaries are Yeah, so within our master plan North Lakes Park Southwest Park which is we recently completed master plan does identify another location as As this future master plan to feature something of this scale as far as whether that will fit appropriately within North Lakes That was something that we assessed beforehand checking that the area and confirming the square footage where we do seem that it's Appropriate for this size in this scale of course there are I guess concerns when it comes to Mobility in the sense of the existing parking lot right, but those are opportunities that that we are looking to address separately aside from that But as far as what you see here to answer your initial Comment with the master plan vision of Grand Prairie, so as you see just from this render here This is a very big phased approach, so there's multi-phase probably eight phases Within this development that first phase is just a small part. I'm not really familiar with the funding on the back end But they also do have dedicated funding sources through hop funds that do provide funding for that Which in this scenario, we don't necessarily have that established for this part Okay, interestingly enough. I'm looking at all of these wonderful structures, and they've got minimum our minimal Shade, but the one in Grand Prairie looks like it's got pretty much adequate shade We're talking about pretty much shading the whole playground That is something that we're looking at and we're gonna through the master plan stages We are going to initiate this public engagement platform where the public will be able to initiate that Within our parks master plan shade is one of the top amenities that are being requested so that is something that we're considering When you visited the Grand Prairie what stood out to you the most when you were there and did staff describe Any changes in like the usage or the demographics they were seeing at this new park space? So this is a recently Established part it actually came got built during coded. So it's still using its its its Magnitude is still out there and they're building just a bunch of stuff all around there But just a scale of the project and when you walk in I mean you see different types of of amenities There's different experiences the sensory factors to it kind of what we're speaking to they have a dedicated chalk wall They have just all the different different aspects to it to have a dedicated swing set just specific for wheelchairs So just the magnitude of it and with the epic next door Just the name alone kind of speaks to the scale of projects that they're trying to build over there Not trying to say that that we're also going to get something to this scale, but we can Find those solutions of what we like there and what the fence I said we went there last week and what we did is what is it that we like? What is it that we don't like and how can we maximize that here in Denton? So that's that's what we're looking at And you give us more detail on what Equipment would be there and whether or not there would be a splash pad included Yeah, so part of the sensory portion of this matter does include water I mean there's in me I could probably speak to this too But the cooling method of as you're playing we could probably have some misters where it cools down the kids as they're out there And it's just a different element So as far as whether it's actual splash pad is going to be featured that hasn't been discussed But that could very well be something that happens through the engagement But that is a different dollar amount. That's a little bit separate from from the playground here as you see here Seven point nine million for nine thousand square foot playground and eighteen thousand square foot splash pad for Mesa That's a big significant difference in cost just from that playground to that splash pad So that is something to consider as well but normally yes, there is a water component like Grapevine had two dolphins spraying each other At the entrance and the one in Southlake had the huge Southlake dragon that you push a button and it shoots out Water into a sandy area so you can not only play with the water part but you can play with us with the sand and then it also had little alcoves that you can hide and and the one in Grand Prairie Was like sectioned off in sections, so you just can't run from one to the other which that was a nice design and in the fencing and the benches and the fake trees and The interior I mean the exterior as you're walking in and through the grand entrance It had like butterflies and different shapes of all the sponsors so everything that I just mentioned Had a sponsor name on it or could have a sponsor name on it, so it wasn't just your regular wood slats that You can't really see through they don't provide the the septet principles that we'd like to design now Which is crime prevention through environmental design as PDs driving by we'd like for them to see all the way Through to the back of anything. We're building now Mindy had a question Two quick questions the first one I know that you're and I think McKenna has Adapted inclusive equipment already how many parks do we have that include elements of inclusivity already and then second follow-up question? With Casey's Clubhouse. It was one of the first Inclusive playgrounds in the Metroplex, and it was really a draw for people outside of the city to come and visit Do you see this as being that type of facility especially right next to the ball fields? And is that sort of how you're designing it as well? To answer your first question all our playgrounds by law have to have accessibility ATA accessibility and the inclusiveness Comes along with that, but there's three levels of inclusiveness There's the accessibility and then inclusive playground and then universal design is the highest watch I should say ATA accessibility Inclusiveness and then universal design is the highest design form you can have which includes more options of not only People with physical disabilities, but more the mental disabilities and then As far as your second question is is this going to be a draw for the region we hope so But more we're our focus is for the residents here in Denton since since we don't have anything like this to begin with is Have the schools visit have families visit and then Our own programs they have meals programs and and you know Mia Can you speak a little bit about your programs that you have now just real quick? I know we have ten minutes Yeah, so currently we have programs for Youth through adult so we serve five to eighty five years old We currently have about 300 people that attend our programs throughout the year We offer everything from sports to art to technology classes Educational classes socials everything and where a lot of our programs are based out of is there at North Lakes rec center So this park is one that we utilize often So it would be great, you know to have it locally and of course the plan is to expand those programs throughout the city So then that way they're not Just at North Lakes, but of course it does help out that that's kind of our hub right now Let's do two more questions We have one here and if we have another one and just another note that we have Parking lot questions too if you want to ask additional questions to be answered as a follow-up and we're gonna have another conversation time after small group I Wanted to kind of address miss Julianne's comment. I live right by North Lakes I don't know if you all know me or not But I'm your wildlife rehabilitator very familiar with all the trails at North Lake very involved in that whole community up there I'm here to tell you you build this they will come and I think this is going to be one of the shining stars That this bond committee does is bring not just inclusivity and accessibility to our parks But I'm going for universal. I advocated for it on the 2019 bond committee that we do that for McKenna We didn't get there But we almost did if we're going to have a population of a hundred eighty five thousand people in the city of Denton by the end Of this year when you think of all the new schools We're building when you think of all of the wonderful new people that are coming to our fabulous city What do we want to show them? That they are welcome that their kids will be safe and that we have the most outstanding program in the entire Metroplex Let's do this Okay, one more question So I think that it will wind up being a regional draw I know people outside of then who if this came, you know They're currently going to an inclusive playgrounds much farther away who'd wind up coming here instead. Are there any plans to? Like the the area where the North Lakes playground is right now is fairly Isolated there's not businesses nearby. There's like no place to go and maybe get a meal afterwards That's directly nearby. Are there any plans to do anything with that? I Have to get back with you on that know you from there you can go down and hit University and the torches tacos and all But as far as our project with this bond that's not even question, but oh I Could say that with the increase in trails and just connectivity within the park system That's something that could easily be attainable just within mobility with with razor ranch just being nearby So those are opportunities that we're also looking to expand outside of this project just increasing the trails system Again kind of back to the kind of last week's conversation But just to answer that that question that that could very well be something that could happen just with Increase in trails and such. All right, let's jump into our small groups for a little bit of reflection and Additional conversation and then we'll come back and wrap it up with a large group conversation for move on to our next one , right? , right? , right? , right? , right? I , right? [inaudible] We're still part of the project [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] Yeah, where does this put you relative? [inaudible] (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) - Let's take another couple minutes and then we'll return to the big group. (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) Go ahead and wrap up your final comments. (people chattering) All right, so let's, a lot of animated discussion on this one, which is awesome. Anyone care to share anything else? Maybe it came out of your small group or anything else that you hasn't got touched on. I am curious 'cause it felt like as part of the back and forth during the Q&A, there seemed to be some inclination to say, let's push further towards a bigger project, it sounded like, in some cases, and then others had more reservations. So I'm curious, as we think through that, that's probably gotta be a consideration of this group. - Are there any renderings as to what this 3.45 will be? Like, how did we get there? - Not at the moment. We are working to gain 30% of renderings up to the bond vote. And if the bond passes, if this project passes, then we'll move to 100%. - Isn't it easier to sell? You can tell the public what-- - We're working on it, but at this moment, there is none. We're using other comps around the city, the North Texas area. - So I think she's giving a little marketing tip. (laughing) - Noted. - Let's make it look nice. - So how did you arrive at the 3.45 number? - It was based on our current contracts. - Which included? - I just wanted to clarify. We haven't spent any funding on the design portions of these projects yet because they haven't gone through this committee. We don't know where the committee is gonna land on the projects. So I just wanna clarify, that's one of the reasons you're not seeing designs, you're not seeing a lot of renderings, because we have not gone through that design process. If these projects go through the committee and come out with the recommendation, then we will start the design process as we move into the vote. - Okay, we'll come back. - What do you hope to have? Do you have a list of all the different things that you would hope to include in the park that we could maybe see or look at so that we could get a better idea of just sort of the types of equipment and the different features that you guys would like? - Sure, we can provide a list. There's many, and they're expensive. - Let's go there and then get a question back here. - Yes. - Speaking of the list, what does your parking plan look like for parking? Because parking at that current park when there's tournaments on Saturdays, there's football and soccer games. I literally have driven around for over 30 minutes looking for a parking spot. If we're gonna make it bigger, we're gonna need a bigger parking lot on both sides, one where the tournaments are and where the parks are. - So in here, CIP did evaluate the parking with ADA assessment. And with their funding, they're gonna address the parking at this area and the access to the site. We did talk to them about it and they're on board. So thank you all. - Couple of things. One, are we thinking about just little kids or are we thinking about adults or larger children? Who could participate and use these facilities? And my second comment is I'm a little concerned that we may be a little too short-sighted and that perhaps we should really be looking for another park similar at another location within the city. - Yes, we are looking at all those things, especially not only for the adults that can visit this kind of playground, but for the caregivers. Universal design includes spaces for the caregivers. For an example, an embankment slide or any other slide, they have to hold them as they go down the slide. So we need spaces for that. And then we didn't even mention that people that use in these parks, we have to retrofit the restroom to have an adult-size changing table or changing area for them as well. So all these items that include in universal design, we've been talking about them for a while since this came up. That's what we've been visiting and seeing what works, what doesn't work, talking to other directors, other city managers. And I've built a couple myself in my previous job, but I'm really looking forward to having this one built here for the citizens of Denton. - Let's do this. - And I'm sorry, in the Southwest Park Master Plan, also there's a space in that when that comes on so it's for the South side of town. - Just wanted to clarify on the parking piece. So the ADA assessment that we did did not, the scope is not expanding any of that parking. It's fixing the parking lot since it's old up to meet current standards. - Go ahead, Mandy. - Just looking at the project as you've laid it out, is there a way to have any sort of a ballpark estimate of what, knowing the age of the playground, if you were to just replace it as is with a standard playground, what would that cost look like versus what would the design proposal that you're putting forth look like? - I'd have to get that number 'cause it would include probably more shade that every time we have public engagements at almost every special event or wherever we're at, soliciting an online and undiscussed then, shade's a big item. And then we'd have to repair some of the ADA stuff that's within that area if we don't touch the footprint, probably add some irrigation and some other amenities. So I'd have to get that number, an estimate. - So a comment first and then a question. I'm hearing a lot of interest about the sponsorships and the partnership with the community and all that kind of stuff, especially when you're talking about a pretty expensive facility. So it seems like definitely something to explore, especially with our parks foundation, those folks. The question is, are we factoring in ongoing maintenance costs? So some of these, this is really specialized equipment. It's not normal off the shelf kind of stuff. And then also, one of my favorite parts about it is that kids of different ability levels can play together. But I know when my kids go places like this, they use the equipment in ways it's not supposed to be used 'cause it's not familiar to them and 'cause they're kids. So I would expect higher maintenance costs for something like this. And are we, and you're talking about misters and all this different special stuff, are we building those costs in, are we planning for those? Do we know our ability to cover those maintenance costs? - Yeah, we have. But most of this stuff is built industrialized. So to give you one example of what I built previously, I built a 16,000 square foot all-inclusive playground in my previous city. And instead of using, well, five bars out, the surfacing the wood chips, but instead of using the rubber or any other type, we used a specialized synthetic turf that only one manufacturer makes in the nation right now. And it has copper woven properties into it that is grounded to the ground so you don't get static electricity that won't short out any devices that you would be wearing, cochlear implants or pacemakers or anything like that. But not only that, there's a huge benefit that that surfacing is a 15-year warranty surfacing. So if anything happens to it, if it gets burned or gets whatever, they come and replace it. So we're looking at items like that to incorporate into this project and stuff that I've used in the past as well. - Howdy. - How much is in the Parks Foundation fund these days? - That's a good question. Yeah, we'll have to get back to you on that one. - Let's do two more questions or comments. We got 'em. - I noticed that you visited cities in different states. Does the city of Denton have a list of benchmark cities that you usually visit? Or you just decide which park facility you'd like to emulate and then you go there? - Well, we visited the ones in Texas, in North Texas around us. We didn't, to clarify, we didn't go out of state. But the more, the newer cities, the more larger, newest projects that are out there that we hear from our colleagues when we go to conferences or just when we're meeting up or through the design firms, they say, "Hey, go visit here, go visit there." They got good ideas that you may wanna incorporate, so we do that. And we talk, amongst our cities, we talk a lot, 'cause I'm 24 years in myself, and I know a bunch of other cities that we do the same. - So there isn't a list? - No, ma'am, not an official list. We just speak amongst ourselves and send a group email, so. - Yeah, just as a comment for the group, I drive a special needs school bus in my day job, and so I have a student who uses a wheelchair, and on the days, like once every couple of weeks, where he gets to go to something like this, 'cause it's such a long trip for him right now, he comes back and he keeps talking about it for like two days. He's very excited, he wants his dad to tell me about what he did on the playground. It's just something that is very special, I think, for a lot of these kids. - Great, okay. Well, good questions, great conversation. Let's keep moving. The next topic is on aquatics. (water splashing) - Hello, good evening. Nikki Sassenes, assistant director of Parks and Recreation, the other one. I get to do all the fun things. Fence builds it all, and then I put people in it. So I also wanna introduce our staff member here. She is our program area manager for aquatics. Her name is Monica Martens. So she's really the subject matter expert. I just get to give the presentation. So aquatic improvements. We have several different aquatic facilities within the city of Denton, but the one we're focusing on right now is Waterworks Park. It opened in 2003 and features a lazy river. We have a slide tower with four different slides. There's a children's place feature, which you can see there, it's kinda small. And then we have had a few expansions and renovations since it opened in 2003. We added cabanas in 2016, which provides some shade, which is always in high demand. We added the wave pool in 2017, and then a concessions kitchen in 2018. And we have a video to show you. (upbeat music) Aquatic improvements. Opened in 2003, Waterworks Park features a lazy river, a slide tower, a children's play structure, and a sand volleyball court. With upgrades in 2017 and 2018, this park has served residents for over 20 years. But the infrastructure is worn and nearing end of life. Equipment and play features need updating to avoid failure, especially during key operational times. User expectations and desires have changed as technology and play features have evolved. As Denton grows, park spaces must also grow. (upbeat music) So some performance measures from summer of 2022. We had almost 80,000 in total attendance for the summer. Over 2000 memberships sold, 91 days of operation. And again, this facility is over 20 years old now. So planning today for tomorrow. That's kind of a theme in Parks and Recreation. We try to do as much as we can to maximize everything that we have. The Parks and Recreation Trail System Master Plan was adopted by Council in March of 2022. And one of the objectives it outlines is to implement recommendations and improvements to Waterworks Park. We started a aquatics facility master plan, still in the draft right now. We kicked off that project in September of 2022. The process for that looks at what we have in our overall system. What condition our current facilities are. So it wasn't just focusing on Waterworks Park, it was looking at the community as a whole. It did look at other surrounding cities. We looked at some demographics, benchmarking with surrounding cities. Someone asked about benchmarking. And then we looked, we did get feedback from the community and different stakeholder groups. What are their needs? What are their desires? What are their wants? So based on all of that and the planned growth for the city, which we've heard a lot about, trends, industry standards within aquatics, they put together a recommendation and a presentation of findings. So we're hoping to take this to council in September of '23 for adoption. But this would really guide our aquatics programs over the next 10 years. So some of the findings from that aquatics master plan, we need to enhance offerings and reinvest in Waterworks Park. Indoor, lap lanes, programmable space, and year-round aquatic access. Plans to address the Civic Center Pool, which is also one of our aging infrastructures. And then access to seasonal aquatics and year-round aquatics in the south side as that area continues to grow. So a lot of these things are being addressed in other ways. We have the downtown master plan, Quaker Town Master Plan coming on to address the Civic Center Pool. We are talking with different partners, possible opportunities. And as then continues to grow south, we can address those other recommendations. But the primary focus of this ask right now is to enhance the offerings and reinvestment in Waterworks Park. So as I said, we also talked to the community and wanna get feedback from you because you are the user group. So our 2022 end of season survey, our top three responses are upgraded restrooms, more shade, and new attractions. Those are always the top three requested items. So those actually touch on some of our challenges now. So again, I mentioned this again, our facility is 20 years old. And you may say, well, I've been there, I've seen it recently or had friends visit, it doesn't look that bad to me. Similar to the senior center. I'll have to give our staff credit, they do a really good job of maintaining what we have. They clean it well, they make things last. And Tom Klimko is our aquatics technician manager, and he and his team do a great job of getting the most life out of what we have and preserving it and maintaining it. But we are reaching our 20 year life cycle, and that is the projected life cycle for most of the equipment and buildings out there. You can see we've had some settling issues with some smoothing of the structure. Our water treatment system and circulation equipment, which is essential for treating and keeping the water safe for users, is nearing the end of its life cycle. We have some other challenges, just operationally. Again, things you don't see as the public, but that we experience as staff and have to work through. Our admissions office is small and undersized. We are required to count down money, and our Randy's in the room now, in a secure and safe position. And we have one entrance into our admissions office, and it's right through that secure space. So there's not a secure area to be able to count that down all the time as people are coming and going. We have a first aid office slash guard room. You can see in the picture there. That office space was built to house two guards when they're rotating and one manager. Well, then we added on the wave pool and the addition of staff to be able to accommodate that. Now we have to have seven guards in there. And it's small, there's no place for them to keep their equipment or their personal belongings. So if they come and they're working an eight hour shift, they have water bottles with them, their lunch. It's very tight in there. During COVID, there was no place to space out. So those are some of the challenges that we're working through. And when it's hot outside, they go through their rotations, and part of their rotation to keep them refreshed is they get to spend about 15 minutes in there during their rotation. But there's not a lot of room for them to be able to do that. Similarly, they have to be able to respond if there's an emergency situation. Everyone in the guard room is expected to help respond to that situation. So they can't go leave and walk into the auditorium to go get their lunch or whatever they had, their personal effects from over there. So they're required to stay in that area. And again, it's not very functional. That's also our first aid room. So if you need first aid rendered to you, you go in there, and it's not very private, and we have to kick all our guards out to help render you first aid. So that's some challenges there. The bath house, what we call the bath house, this is a restroom, is aging. It doesn't really meet the requirements now from the public. There's one big changing area that you go in. So if you have a family and you're trying to change your kids, you're out there in the middle of everyone. Our showers aren't very appealing, and we just have some other challenges in there. We upgraded, the facilities team upgraded a lot of the facility toilets, fountains, sinks, soaps, to hands-free during COVID just for sanitary purposes. We're not able to do that at the water park because all of the plumbing was inside the wall. So it requires a complete renovation. So we still have the manual flush, which some people choose not to use. Some other current challenges, our security system, PA system, again, they're aging, technology's wearing out. The public address system is important when we have emergencies, weather updates, those sorts of things, so we do need to upgrade that. No passive water or flat water. We don't have an area for people just to hang out or to do programming in. Learn to swim, swimming laps. So we do want to address that in this. There's also a high demand for shade and seating. Again, it's Texas, it's hot when you're out there. We have very limited shade and seating. When people come to the water park, yes, you're in there for the water, but they want a shaded place to go and maybe eat their lunch or cool down or dry off. And we don't have a lot of that out there. So, and again, we just wanted to keep up with industry trends, expectations from the population and desires. There's a picture there of a larger place structure that is, if you remember the picture from before, our place structure is small, again, it's aging. It's 20 years old. So the parts there need to be replaced and we want to take this opportunity to make a larger place structure to help address the growth that we're experiencing and be able to serve more people. So the proposal for aquatics is $15 million for improvements and expansions that would help address all of the issues that we listed there. Admissions, bathhouse, guard room, filtration, renovation, a new and larger children's structure, and then indoor multipurpose rooms and leisure programming space and shade additions. We do have kind of a rendering here, again, working through the Aquatics Master Plan. The consultant provided us with a kind of a conceptual idea. So this is not exactly what it would look like. We haven't gone through any designs, as Cassie mentioned, but we have kind of an idea of what we would want and a basic opinion of probable costs, which is where we got the $15 million from. And I'll take any questions. - All right, let's start with Lauren. - Thanks, Nikki. Two questions. First of all, of the $15 million, are you able to give us a breakdown of what replacing the water components versus putting in new programming would look like in terms of that $15 million? - We do have that. It's a lot of concrete work, and so some of those overall construction costs are built into the overall. So it's hard to kind of parse out each one. But we can share that with you with what the consultant gave us. It'll be included in the Aquatics Master Plan. But it's hard to pinpoint, okay, this specific project, because there's all the other grading concrete work that would be split among quite a few of the different projects. - And then how, with the expansion that you guys are talking about, what is the staffing needs for this? How many lifeguards are you gonna have to have? Are you confident that you can get them? Because that is an issue in terms of being open longer hours or more time during the summer. What have you guys thought about that? - That's a great question. The additions here with the splash ground or the children's play feature would really only take maybe three additional guards, and then the flat water would take three or four. So we're looking at maybe seven to eight total. We already currently have one to two guards on our children's play structure, depending on how busy we are. So it wouldn't be that big of an impact to our overall staffing needs. - Questions? Go over to Greg first. - Thank you. This is super helpful. The data is super helpful. In the day in the beginning, you talked about the number of events that you've sold and the revenue at the beginning. I'm curious, the total cost to operate the water park, what percentage of that budget ballpark comes in in additional funding outside of the just general taxpayer funding? - I'm sorry. - Like where you sell memberships and the question is does the membership sold and the rental reservation sold, does that cover the operational cost? - No. Since 2017 with the additional wave pool, we have operated a deficit. Now we do share, we've entered into a 50 year agreement several years ago with the ISD to operate the water works park and the auditorium. So they share 50% of the operating costs with us. - Got it. Thank you. Peggy. - Well, since I took you on a memory trip last week, I served on the bond committee as did Janet. We were the building a better Denton committee 20 something years ago. And Margaret Smith, who was on the city council, sold this to us. She had been somewhere and she said, we have to have one of these. So our little subcommittee went off and visited other water works and you could not have planned it any better because as we drove up to NRH2O and our Denton van, there was a group of people and this fella came to us and he said, what are y'all doing here? He says, you're from Denton. We said, we're looking at parks. He said, well, we live in Denton and we're here having a birthday party because there's nothing like this in Denton. So it couldn't have been planned any better. But just remember that this is the Margaret Smith Memorial Water Park and it does a lot of good for us. - Thank you. Yes, it does. It's actually a line in our aquatic master plan study. It is a destination facility for the whole of North Texas. So it serves not only our Denton population but surrounding cities as well, which helps offset some of our operating costs. - Ms. Hayworth. - I'd like to explore the deficit a little more. I remember when this park was losing a million dollars a year and I'd like to know, what is the deficit these days? - It's roughly the same. - So regarding the maintenance, I know getting the $50 million is one thing, but will there be funds in your planning for the maintenance, right? Because I know it's very labor intensive and very maintenance intensive. And so could you speak to that? - We're very fortunate that the city council has allowed us to have a capital maintenance plan or budget for aquatic facilities. So we use that money. It varies on year to year based on what we project needing. I think this last year it was close to $400,000 or $20,000. And we use that to maintain our current equipment. So we look at, we currently assess all of our equipment needs projected out into the future. As things come up, obviously we need to shift funding around to address immediate needs, but we have everything planned out based on the life expectancy of each piece of equipment. - Regarding the leisure programming pool addition, with your statement with DISD also going in with it, do you not have the indoor natatorium that you can use for the classes during the summertime when school isn't in session or even just year round? - So great question. Yes, we do have an indoor natatorium. It does have a competition pool and then also a lap swimming pool for anyone who may not be familiar. Again, we share that facility with DISD as you pointed out, but when it was built, DISD had two high schools. They have five high schools now. And they did not have water polo. Now they have water polo. So we have all of those kids trying to come in and find practice space. And of course, they can't do practice during the middle part of the day 'cause they're in class. So their primary use time is before school, which is when the community wants to do lap swim. And then after school, which is when the community wants to do water aerobics or when you wanna do your learn to swim programs. So there's a high concentration of requests and a very little pool space. So that's why we need additional flat water space. And just anecdotally, you talked about the staffing issues. One thing that we found just in talking with people going out to job fairs or trying to recruit lifeguards is a lot of people don't know how to swim anymore. And so we need flat water space to be able to provide those lessons to then get our lifeguards. Not only is it a great skill, but we sufficiently want them for staff later also. - Well, I agree with what you're saying there. However, UIL rules in regard to competitive high school does not allow the kids to be competing or practicing with their high school coaches during the summer season. So that should open up that timeframe. And also during the summer, you have addressed that during the school year as well, during the daytime, you could set up some of the classes for those who need them. Could you not? - We do, and we take advantage of that time. It's open for open swim. We do have some programs there, but again, we have a large population. It's either working or in school. So there's not like, you wanna, okay. - Yes, Monica Martin. I'm the aquatic program area manager. In regards to the classroom space, the natatorium was actually built with one classroom, one communal space. It serves parties, it serves camps, it serves the booster club, the lifeguard training, and everything else that we have in there. The GISD as well as the city do take a lot of opportunities to program out that room. And it is used pretty much from about six in the morning until about eight to 10 p.m. between December through August. So that is the one space that we have for indoor classroom. It is upstairs, which creates a little bit of a problem. So if you're moving from the deck, the pool deck upstairs, you do have to go up the stairs. That creates a lot of water on the stairs, and it does become an unsafe environment in order for people to transfer up and down. Or for party kids who are in the pool, go upstairs for their party, and they have to come back down. We do have some areas where we do have to have non-slip tapes on there. We have to keep a lot of maintenance on those stairways. And it's not an ideal environment for people who are maybe a little bit mobile, dependent on devices. They can't watch the kids swim. They can't watch their families have a good, enjoyable experience. Part of the indoor classrooms that you're seeing on the bond election is going to be building on three additional classrooms. That's going to have entrance out to the water park, as well as into the natatorium off of the pool deck itself. And it would be facing into the leisure pool area that is currently the wall of windows. - Yeah, the next question I had was, have we explored, so there's a lot of, there's privately owned water parks, and there's publicly owned. Have we explored any sort of a public-private partnership, or looked at potentially leasing this facility to a privately owned operator? Just thinking about, if we're losing a million a year, we've already got the facility, right? So you don't want to scrap it. But are there other opportunities to maybe curb our ongoing deficit through some sort of an outsourcing? - We can look into that. We haven't recently. We are looking at different opportunities for future and potential expansion, but not currently. - Question up there. My kids are gonna. - Higher? - Last time it was lower. Okay. - Anyway, so I'm hearing a lot about the need for the flat water. And I know that the natatorium is capacity most program days. I'm wondering if we might need to balance the other direction a little bit, if we've considered a version of the plan that is essential maintenance on the Waterworks Park, but more of an emphasis on the flat water, or even an additional natatorium. I know that's something in the Aquatics Master Plan under discussion. But a little bit curious why this year's bond is the one for Waterworks improvements, and not an additional natatorium, or even more flat water space. 'Cause I mean, if you think about it, the Civic Center and Waterworks and Natatorium, wholly inadequate for our current aquatics needs, much less our future aquatics needs. On top of that, I don't even know the status of swim lessons this Saturday, 'cause we have some HVAC issues at the natatorium. It needs a new HVAC system. So just kind of wondering where staff's perspective is on that balance between why is this the year for Waterworks and not more natatorium space? - I'll kind of take that in a few different pieces. So the HVAC component, that's the air conditioning and the Teresco unit that handle dehumidification and air conditioning for the natatorium. We are experiencing some issues with that. It is a system that is five years old at this point and should last about 15. So we're hoping to make some improvements or some fixes there and then still get the life out of that. It was $1.2 million or $1 million when it was installed in 2015. So that should remedy that issue there. As far as expansion of the natatorium, that is something that we did explore. It's not something that we would do on our own though. It would be with maybe different partners. DISD, UNT has expressed interest. We've gone to those various stakeholders. They're not currently in a position to be able to do that and it is a high dollar amount. So it would be more than the $15 million that we're looking at here. But that is something that we're looking at working towards in the future. That answer all your questions? - Any other questions? All right, let's move to a time of small group conversation on this topic and then we'll come back to the large group. (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) (people chattering) - Let's take about two more minutes to keep the conversation going. - While you guys are still doing your small groups, I just wanna interrupt and correct some information I said earlier. The water park itself does not operate at a million dollar deficit. The water park combined with an auditorium operates at a million dollar deficit. The water park itself is about $400,000. So it's about 75% cost recovery. So I just wanna make that clarification as you guys are discussing. So that's a big difference. (people chattering) (people chattering) - Let's wrap up the table conversations and we'll move back to a whole group. Again, reminder, parking lot questions. You can continue to ask them online. All right, again, another lively conversation as I scan the room. What further comments or questions does anyone have on this particular project? Comments or questions, yes sir. - So we entered into the agreement with DISD in 2003. And obviously they've grown at a much faster rate than the city. Was it not anticipated? Or is there not something within the contract that can... I mean, I grew up in a small town, 2,800 people, 69 people in my graduating class, and we had a full-size Olympic swimming pool. That's something school districts should be doing more of than requiring that they do the combined with the community. - I can't speak to the agreement. Obviously I wasn't here when it was in place. But that doesn't mean that agreement can't be renegotiated or looked at later. So we're not stuck in that forever. We can, I'm sure if they want to renegotiate what that looks like. - Our group had some questions over the park and the native budget. We were particularly interested, have you explored those options for the public partnerships? Or could you outline what those other relationships might look like in communities around us and what other cities might have those types of setups? And kind of a follow-up, I mean, you might have answered this a little earlier, the offset that the cost recovery elements of the park to help mitigate that deficit that it faces, could you expand upon that a little bit more? - Sure, so... - Can you guys hear me okay? As far as the public-private partnerships, we have not explored that. That really hasn't come up as an idea or an opportunity with like a third party company that comes in and just operates it. We have explored with potentially DISD continuing that partnership, UNT possibly bringing, doing some type of joint venture with them, PWU possibility, there's economy of scale there, right? So we put in a little, they put in a little, we get a bigger, better product for the community to use and then their use. Again, we have to balance what that funding looks like and then also make sure that it works for our use to speak to your point that we're not locked into something for 50 years, we're not anticipating the growth later. As far as the cost recovery elements, so that was the addition of the concession stand in 2019 per cap is how much we try to get each person to spend while they're in the water park. Now you don't have to, you can come to the water park, you have your membership, which is a great deal, you scan that every time you come in, you bring your own food for your $5 cooler fee, you can bring in whatever you want as far as eating stuff that you've prepared at home, or you can make it a destination and that's the people that we try to capitalize on, the daily admissions, the people who are gonna be buying the nachos and the hamburger. We have a great concession stand if you're ever hungry, come out and have lunch there, but we try to capitalize on that opportunity. It's a business, right? We wanna offset some of our operating expenses through those per cap spending per person. We also have after hours rentals, so we try to recover some costs that way, and then birthday parties, cabana rentals, shade rentals, so that sort of thing. So those are some of the efforts that we do to recover some of the costs. - Any other comments, questions? Jen. - Although a million dollars sounds like a lot of money to be losing every year, if you think about it, it is a benefit that we offer to our citizens to have this water park. So how do you not lose money? You increase the fees that you charge or you run more efficiently, but we also want to be inclusive of our community so that you can afford to have this luxury and this benefit to us all. We don't charge people to go into our parks. We don't charge admission at Eureka. We don't charge people to have a fire station, and it costs money. It may lose a million dollars a year too. So I'm just saying that even though that sounds like that, it could be a budgeted loss. It's something we're offering to our citizens. - I suggested to change the term into investment instead of deficit as a way of thinking about it. Any other questions or comments? Okay, we've got a packed agenda, so we're gonna move on. And I think the next discussion is Ningo and Riddell, correct? And the Quiet Zones, we're packing them together, okay. (people chattering) - All right, good evening, everyone. My name is Trevor Crane. I'm the Director of Capital Projects here at the City of Denton. I want to introduce a couple of other people I have here with me tonight to help me with questions if I can't handle them. I have Ms. Becky Devaney. She's our City Engineer and General Manager of Public Works. Also have Seth Garcia. He's a Program Manager on my team. And then I also have Mike Linder in the back. He is our Drainage Manager, Drainage Engineer on our team as well. So y'all are stuck with me for the next three presentations. So let's get started. So tonight I'm gonna start off with our Ningo, Riddell, and Quiet Zone projects. So just a little project history. The Quiet Zones and Riddell extension were included in the 2014 bond. Both projects were insufficiently funded. So as we kind of started digging into those projects, we discovered that they were gonna cost a lot more to build them than what was allocated in those bonds. So we did ask the Bond Oversight Committee to remove those from the bond on May 20th, 2022. That request was approved and they asked us to bring those back in the 2023 bond, which we're doing tonight. So the current roadway out here, you can see some pictures of what it currently looks like out there. It's a two-lane, undivided roadway, no underground drainage system, no pedestrian or biking facilities are out there, limited right of way. There's also six at-grade UPRR crossings, limited street lighting, limited and aging utility infrastructure. It's also, like I just mentioned, not a Union Pacific Quiet Zone, which means the train has to blow its horn every time it comes through one of those crossings. And then, as I stated earlier, there were portions of this project that were included in the 2014 bond program. So we have some pictures here. This would be our proposed roadway cross-section. And you can see an example of what that side path and trail would look like. I do wanna just reiterate that this is a proposed cross-section. Best case scenario, if we were able to fit everything, this is what we would propose and it would line up with our mobility plan. As I mentioned, the real estate is pretty tight out there. There's a railroad on one side. If anyone's ever had to deal with the railroad, they're pretty finicky about their property and what you can put near their railroads. And then, of course, TW's on the other side. So that right of way would be evaluated if this project was approved as we went through design. So we would propose a three-lane roadway. It'd be one lane east and west with a dedicated turn lane, bike and pedestrian infrastructure, installation of a drainage system, street lighting, replacing of any aging utilities that are currently out there. This would bring us into alignment with our 2022 mobility plan and also into alignment with our 2022 Parks, Recreation, and Trails system master plan. So the Rudel portion of this street, we would propose something pretty similar except you see some parking lane there. It would also be a one lane east and west with a center turn lane. It would include a new alignment of the crossing at Mingo. And it would include closures of the Willis and Pertain Street railroad crossings. We would propose installing bike and pedestrian infrastructure, street lighting, replacement of any aging facilities that are currently out there. And this would also bring us into alignment with our 2022 mobility plan. This is the Rudel Street extension portion of the project. So this is what I just mentioned, that new alignment of the crossing at UPRR. It would include a new traffic signal at Mingo and Rudel, bike and pedestrian infrastructure crossing that UPRR, railroad crossing. It would include street lighting. And then once again, bring us into alignment with our 2022 master plan. Oh, I'm sorry, mobility plan update. And the Mingo Quiet Zone. So this would include the Quiet Zone implementation of the crossings on Mingo from Mockingbird to Frame Street. So depending on each Quiet Zone or each crossing, it depends on what you have to install to make those Quiet Zones. So each of those crossings would be evaluated. It could be anything from new lights, gates, raised medians, traffic signal preemption. And then it would also include bike and pedestrian infrastructure crossing that railroad. So just the project benefits summarized. This would be increased safety for vehicular, bicycle and pedestrian traffic. Provides walkability from Texas Women's University, downtown city of Denton, DCTA, and nearby residential properties. This would bring the area into Quiet Zone compliance, meaning the train would no longer be required to blow its whistle at those crossings. And then it would also remove and or realign dangerous UPRR crossings. And then I'm gonna have, we have a short video here about this project. And I will just mention that second link is to our mobility plan. If anybody wants to go in there, it's very big, so we didn't wanna print it out for you, but you are able to access it there. - Rudel, Mingo and Quiet Zones is a combination of three separate projects. The Mingo portion proposes constructing a three-lane roadway with bike and pedestrian infrastructure, adding street lighting and a drainage system, while also bringing this road into alignment with both the 2022 Mobility Plan and the 2022 Parks and Recreation and Trail System Master Plan. The Rudel portion proposes construction of a three-lane roadway, adding bike and pedestrian infrastructure with street lighting and establishing a new alignment of the Union Pacific Railroad crossing. This work is in alignment with the 2022 Mobility Plan. And the Mingo Quiet Zones portion of the project allows for the installation of necessary safety measures that would create a Union Pacific Railroad Quiet Zone in this area. - So we do have some estimated costs here. This project cost did not include any design costs, so of course, that would be added to the numbers that you will see in the next meeting. We will provide some updated costs that will include everything. But this does include the construction costs that were estimated in January of 2023, which of course have gone up between now and then just with inflation, but we do have some estimated costs here. We've gone up between now and then just with inflation. And then this does include some of the soft costs, which are inspection, project management, permitting, working with the railroad as far as those agreements and things like that. So I will tell you, this number will go up between now and the time you see it next week. And I'll stand for any questions. - All right, questions on this project, right off the bat. - I guess my question is on the right of way. How much of that do we have to acquire to finish this or do this project? - Sure, so the ultimate cross section for what that road is labeled as is 110 feet. We're not gonna be able to get 110 feet without damaging out a lot of houses, some apartment complexes, things like that. The goal would be to get to 90 feet is what we think we can get to. Of course, we would coordinate that with our planning department. I don't know exactly how much we need currently, but that would be the goal, would be to get to the 90 feet. That would allow us to install the roadway that we've talked about. The sidewalk on the goal would be a continuous sidewalk on the north side of Mingo with some sidewalk on the south that would feed people to safe crossings like at intersections and things like that, cross to the larger side path on the north side and then continue everybody down into the downtown and Texas women's. - Okay, great. With the realignment of Rudel and that Willis crossing, I believe that that's gonna be going into city property on the other side of Mingo. What is the kind of market value for that property? - I don't know the answer to that question. So we are considering that property, the service center, that's where the service center is currently located. We are currently looking at renovating the service center and maybe moving that building around on that property. So of course, those would be conversations and we would coordinate those projects between this one and what that one looks like to make sure that we're using that property to the best of its ability, I mean, the best of its use. I don't know what the property values are out there, so we can definitely come back with that. - So on the map, I saw the Quiet Zone map was from Frame to Mockingbird, but the Mingo, two lanes with a turn lane, expansion of Mingo, what's the extent of that and what happens at either end? We've got Bell Street and the way it comes into Bell, you just kind of got a neck down right there and what's the plan for how that expanded Mingo interacts on both ends? And my next question is, is there any other funding identified or funding that we're going for for this particular project? Does it qualify for any kind of regional funding or anything like that? Or is this just a Denton project that we've gotta get done with as many bond dollars as we can because costs go up every single year? - Right, so I'll answer the second one first. This is the City of Denton project. We've looked at some other, or we're always looking for funding, reaching out to TxDOT, COG, trying to identify other places. This project does not qualify for any of that. So this would be specifically a City of Denton project. And really it's kind of a main corridor getting down, especially for walkability, trying to get everyone in, down into downtown, back out to Texas Women's. So that's why we identified this area as a need for a major project like this. As far as either end, there are conversations about projects for either end. They're not anywhere close to, I would say even initiation planning at this point. Of course, that would be something we would need to, the City would have to look at and do analysis on to determine if those are project needs. - Just frame to Mockingbird, that's all we're talking about? - For this project. - Oh wait, I'm sorry, back there. - First of all, it's a accepted fact that sooner or later, Bell Avenue will be closed as a through street to University Drive. - There has been talks about that back and forth with TWU. At this point, we're still coordinating with TWU about what that looks like. At this point, that is not the direction that we've been told. We're working on different ideas, especially to increase that walkability and yeah, so I would say that's not necessarily the case. - Well, assuming it is the case because it's gonna happen. And that's one of our major north-south ways to get across town. And what you're proposing for Mingo, even with this incredible cost and all, will not replace Bell Avenue, let alone provide any additional capacity for cars to get across north-south. It seems not good planning to me. - I can't speak to the planning. All I can tell you is that at this point, there are no plans to close Bell north-south and this project is specifically for this scope. - Well, it's already down to one lane each way and 20 miles an hour, it's not a viable north-south artery. And we need one, but all this money we're talking about spending on Mingo and Rudel doesn't do it. That's not, going out with one lane going and one lane coming in and a turn lane is insufficient. - Yes, ma'am, I understand. With the limited right-of-way that's out there, this would be the best case scenario for improving the infrastructure out there and providing that east-west connectability. - I just think when we're talking about that amount of money, we should be getting something more. - Got another question up here. - Two quick questions. The first on the example of the cross-section of the roadway for the Rudel Street project, it shows a little bit of plants that are included. Is there an opportunity to include green infrastructure or street trees as part of that project? And then my second question, with the overall project as a whole, looking at the multimodal transportation pieces of it where it's including your bike and pedestrian and car ability to navigate, have you investigated any sort of grant funding that would support a complete streets design for the area? - So the cross-section, I built this on an app so I wanted to make it pretty and put some plants on there, but I will tell you that those are absolutely ideas that will be entertained during that design process. Once we determine what that full right-of-way is, we have community meetings at the beginning of projects, halfway through design, and so we wanna bring the public in and hear what they have to say and what's really important, and anything that we can fit in into that design that makes sense, then of course we wanna do that. - As far as the second question, so like I mentioned earlier, we're always looking for grants. We do trip, we apply for trip funding, which is something we use, so anything that we haven't looked at them specific for this, but that of course will be something that we're looking at as we're moving through those processes and determining where we can pull in money from anywhere. - I got a couple. So you mentioned this was in the quiet zones from the 2014 bond, and there was a shortfall. How much money were we short on the quiet zones? - About $9 million. - And how much was allocated? - About $900,000. - So we had... (audience laughing) It sounds like one of my estimators did that. - The $10 million that it's gonna cost about to do the quiet zones this time, it's actually a little less, just with economies of scale. If we include it with this project, that's today's dollars, but the $900,000 wouldn't get us one quiet zone compliance. - So that money has already been spent on something else? I'm guessing. - Yes. - Okay, my next question. Do we know what the traffic counts are on Mingo? - I don't think we've done any of the traffic analysis yet. Did we do anything? We haven't done that yet. Those would be something that we would do, especially for that signal that's gonna happen right there at Mingo and Rudel. We know that those traffic counts are going to get there here in the near future. I don't think it's warranted for that traffic signal yet, but it makes sense to incorporate that into this design now, get it built so that we're not having to come back in a year or two when the traffic warrants that signal and getting that installed now. - So I have a comment before my question. I hope I don't get in trouble. I was on another committee like this, and a lot of the talk was about bike lanes. And then our bike lanes that got built were a bunch of small sections that didn't connect to other things, which actually I think ended up being more dangerous, because kids take off on a bike lane, then it ends. So curious, I know we don't have traffic counts for Mingo, but like we're proposing a 10-foot, we got bike lanes and a 10-foot pedestrian lane on one side, and I think it's set on there 15,000 people per day, and so as I look at Mingo and Rudel, I'm curious, are we expecting significantly more development to happen in these areas to create that much demand for pedestrians? 'Cause when I look at this land over here, it doesn't seem like there's much left to be developed. So I'm curious, I mean, I personally have a problem with this kind of price tag on a section of road like this one, and I'm honestly trying to justify it in my mind, 'cause our vehicular lanes don't change. And then my last question was, if we don't know what the projected pedestrian and bicycle traffic would be or what the vehicular traffic is, it seems to me like it comes back to the quiet zones, and so I don't know if we have an analysis of how many people sleep within a certain distance of where these horns blow, and if we're projecting that there's gonna be more, I mean, if you're already there, I know it sucks, I live right next to one myself, and we just kinda get used to it, and the horns blow. But this is a pretty big price tag, so I'm curious if we're expecting more growth to happen in this area that's gonna create all this new demand for these roadways. Thank you. - Yeah, so I would say as far as the quiet zone, so going back to that, that has been a major push in the, I'll say the last year, making all of those, whether it's DCTA or UPRR, quiet zone compliant. So it's been a council priority to make that happen. This section, and I think we have a couple projects currently underway that are making some of those areas quiet zone compliant. This section, and there's one more that we just applied for trip funding to make those quiet zone compliant as well. As far as development in that area, I'm not sure about the answer to that question. And then going back to the bike lane, so just remember that this is a proposed right-of-way, and it's really going to be dictated by how much, or a proposed cross-section, and it would be dictated by how much right-of-way that we can get. A lot of places, we're installing a 10 or 12-foot mixed-use path that is also able to have bikes on it. Ultimately, that would be something that would go through our planning department, our planning committee, to determine what's necessary out there. Bikers tend, well, let me put it this way. Serious bikers tend to want to be on the street. They want to, they don't want to be on a shared-use path with other walkers. Now, the kind of the biker that's just out there having a good time and kind of riding around, they're fine with that 12-foot mixed-use path. So that would, of course, that would be determined by our planning department, and what would be, what we would be able to build out here. That's what it looks like. - Yes, my question. - So I've got a couple of things I wanted to add. So to answer your question, Mr. Davis, the actual quiet zone is from Mingo Mockingbird to Frame Street, but the overall roadway project would be from where it turns up and connects to 380, and then down into Bell. So it would be that full cross-section. So just wanted to make sure that you understood that. I think the other thing that maybe we're missing in the conversation that I want to make sure we add is, with Bell Avenue, we're looking at many other options besides closing that roadway. The reason why the roadway is 20 miles per hour is because the city passed a city-wide speed study where all university streets are 20 miles per hour, and that's a university street. We just presented on this just a few weeks ago. And the other thing I just wanted to mention is, throughout this entire corridor, it's our team's goal to try to look at anywhere we can to provide that multimodal perspective, so the bicycle and the pedestrian routes. And there's a substantial project that TxDOT's doing out of 380. If you drive out east of town, you'll see all kinds of sidewalk work that's happening out in that area. It gets you to the green belt. So it's our goal to work with the Parks and Rec Department, and that's why we've mentioned the Park Central's master plan, is to give folks an ability to go from the Pecan Creek areas, the areas that are near the Louisville Lake, all the way down into town, which will also get you into the downtown. The other thing I would mention is, as we're looking at the Bell Avenue, and Seth's team is working on this for Trevor, we're actually looking at, if we were to move forward with this project, and we receive the opportunity to do so, what could we do to incorporate the bike lanes to connect, the bike lane that you see right outside this building, right here, from Oakland, around the Quaker Town Park, and come down across Frame Street, come down into Bell, and provide that ability for folks to get into town. So don't think that these projects just start and stop. We're showing you one portion of the project, but we're actually looking and planning for how do you get from one side of the town to the other. So I just wanted to add that. - Yes, my question was, when you said increase safety, do you have data on mishap reports for a vehicular, bicycle, pedestrian, or has it been a fatality or something where you can kind of give us, and if that's really something that may be driving the cost and you just may not be giving it to us? - Sure, so I know Becky is probably gonna come talk about this. I'll answer to a part of that. So any time that you can pull pedestrians and bicyclists out of travel lanes, of driving travel lanes, you're increasing safety. So when you're dedicating lanes to people that are walking, to bicyclists, you're increasing safety really for both of the person on the bike and the person in the car. And of course, there's also other safety things that we're proposing in this, increased illumination. There's currently nothing out there where it's really dark at night. So there's a lot of different safety factors, even specific to the quiet zones, the double quad gates, crossings that meet safety requirements and things of that nature. So I'll let Becky kind of speak for the crash data and things like that. - So I would ask you to all take an opportunity to drive this roadway and see how many individuals are actually walking or bicycling on this roadway. You probably have some committee members in this room that could speak to that. And some will serve on our Traffic Safety Commission and definitely have brought this project to my attention multiple times. I think the other thing I would mention is we do evaluate all the individual crashes that come through the city. Traffic safety brings those to our attention. And we also work with our police department on different crashes. Some of the ones that we really pay attention to, obviously, are the fatal injuries or the severe injuries. And we review those on a monthly basis to see if there's anything that we need to address from a safety component or standpoint. So I hope that answers your question. We do have a map. We have links that we work through with COG that help track all of that information. And it's something that PD has regularly available for us. And one thing I wanted to mention, and I'm sorry, I just thought about something that would answer Ms. McAdams' question is we have performed traffic studies in the area that were specific to Mingo and Roodell and Bell Avenue during the Bell Avenue discussion. We have not performed any recent traffic studies in 2023. They were all done in 2020. So the studies in 2023 would be specific to what we need to do in this area and what roadway cross-section would make the most sense. We're trying to see what roadway cross-section we can fit, like Trevor mentioned, within the right-of-way, but still being able to provide that multimodal approach. - Okay, you got a question? Oh, actually, Susie's got a question, and then you. - I've got two questions, actually. First one should be easy, I think. So, I hope. So with the drainage, can you ballpark about how much of the total cost is just the drainage? - A lot of it. - Ish, like percent even, ballpark? - Seth, what do you think, 40%, 50%, okay. It's pretty high. Drainage is usually, if you have to install underground drainage, that is usually the driving factor on projects. So underground drainage is very expensive to install. We can get you that number, especially after, between now and next week, 'cause we're gonna be pulling together those updated numbers, so we can get you what, a nice percentage of what that looks. Probably 30%. I would have to see what size we're putting in, but it would be a large portion of it. - All right, then my other question is, so I know the city's working on a vision zero, safe systems kind of plan to try to reduce the fatalities and serious injuries in the city. And all the studies I've seen, 30 miles an hour if somebody's hit, they're about 50% likely to be severely injured or killed. And it's either at 40 or 45 miles an hour, that goes up to about 90% chance of the person being injured or killed. So what is the target speed for Mingo and Riddell that y'all are aiming for, that you're expecting? - So that would be dictated by the cross-section and the classification of road. What is it on a secondary arterial? 35 or 30 to 40? - I was just gonna suggest what she said and ask you to drive down there. I have lived in Ditten for 34 years and I've always lived in District 1 and I drive down Mingo, Riddell every single day, literally. And I've been working for the Ditten ISD for over 10 years and I'm familiar with all the schools in that area. And it's really disheartening for me to drive down that road, especially when you're on Mingo and you turn left onto Riddell, like you're going to Paisley. That street is the worst street I've ever seen in Ditten and I've literally lived here my whole life. And when you go to Teasley and it's so pretty on that side and now you go over to university where the new Ditten High is and it's beautiful on that side and then you come over to District 1 and this area and it's like you don't even care about your people in that street to fix the streets. So I really encourage you to drive down there and see the difference in just the street compared to the other streets in town. - Thanks, Maureen. - Thank you. - I have a question concerning the walkway and the bicycle lanes. Have you come up with a cost that that is an additional cost if it's for the road only and then additional for the bike lane and the walkers? How much additional cost is that for this project? - I don't have those numbers, but really the, so on-street biking, I mean, it's really just pavement markings. So installing sidewalk, the width of the sidewalk is negligible going between a five and a 10 foot. It's usually, depending on the length of it, a million, maybe half a million, million and a half, depending on the length. But adding a bike lane is pavement markings, which is. - Do you have a question for Paul? Okay, go ahead. - So I would just like to reiterate what a couple of people have said. I really think you guys need to go down and drive on Mingo. I work at Casa of Denton County, which is right on Bell. There are kids walking up and down Mingo every single day, particularly in the summer. Kids that are biking, kids that are walking, trying to get downtown and get to the parks. It really is a necessity that we have a safer street in that area. Also, I would like to say to somebody else's comment before about closing Bell. Bell was closed for construction for almost a year, right? And people figured out a way to get around that, so I'm not entirely sure that that should be one of our biggest considerations. Also, to keep in everyone's mind for these quiet zones, these were approved by voters previously on the 2014 bond. They didn't get done, they need to come back, because you have voters who have been out there, living out there for several years, who have been waiting for these things to come through. And we need to fulfill that promise to our constituents. - Right, and also I'd like to say that if you have more walkable options and options for people to bike down this road, to come down to downtown for events and things like that, you'll have less issues with parking downtown. - And just to reiterate, remember the process is this time's Q&A, not that it's fine. We've had some comments and that's fine. But we have the time for further discussion after the table talk where you can make whatever comments you want. So let's try and focus, the remaining will say two questions, if they're questions, for the staff on this project. Go ahead. - My question is, why you're looking at doing this as a three lane for a left turn lane when you're eliminating two crossings across the railroad track and adding a stoplight at one of the other ones, so there's not too many people gonna be making a left hand turn to the south. - Yeah, we can definitely evaluate what those different cross sections look like depending on what the feedback is or even what traffic patterns look like. This was just a proposed example. So that would definitely be something we would work through during that design process. - Okay, I'd like to just clarify, what is the extent of the Mingo Road? Is it just from Bell to Mockingbird? - Bell to 380. - Bell to 380, okay. - Quiet zone, so the quiet zone portion would create the quiet zone from Frame to Mockingbird and the project extents would be from Bell to 380. - Okay, how far out from there could we go and work with the county to extend this type of infrastructure all the way out to Collins Road? - Whenever she starts walking up, I just get up. (laughing) - We make a good team. We actually are in conversations with the county on projects just like what you're talking about. This would just be the first phase of trying to get the infrastructure that's needed through town. I will mention to you as we're working on the Loop 288 frontage road project that will go from 380 to 35. It's currently a controlled freeway and they have frontage roads they're adding. We're already looking at cross sections where roadways would cross, for example, at Mingo and submitting to them this as an example to show them what the city would like to have in the future. So they're making sure that they're dedicating enough right of way in those areas. So we're already thinking in those terms and that would maybe be another phase of a project. - Okay, I'm gonna take chair's privilege to ask a question at the end. Because somebody had asked a question about future development in that area and how that might impact this. TWU, I understand, has a master plan that envisions developing on the former golf course with a lot of residence halls and all sorts of other sorts of things. Do we know whether or not part of their plans or have they engaged us on this involve ingress, egress onto Riddell or onto Mingo? How does that impact your thinking? - So we do coordinate with TWU just like we do UNT and all these other outside entities. We have seen their master plan, or at least their draft of it. They are not far enough down the road on that to let us know what that looks like, but we do coordinate with them. They know that this is a possible project that's coming up and we have had conversations about what that looks like in conjunction with their master plan. - I miss something that's just out of time. - Well, then I would just add that we also not only have looked at it from where the roadway would connect, but also similar with the trails. They are going to have a substantial trail system. You might know now where it used to be a golf path, where golf carts went, is now more of a trail path. And so we would want our trail system to connect to theirs no different than their drainage system would connect to our drainage system. So we are looking big picture as we try to coordinate all of these projects. - All right, let's get into our small groups and continue that conversation. We'll come back for more time of discussion. 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So these are some maps of the current condition and the proposed conditions. So on the left, that's what it looks like now. And then after this project would be completed, you can see the benefit and the proposed conditions after completion. So here's the estimated cost. We didn't have any design costs associated in here, but usually that runs about 10% of what the construction cost looks like. So you can estimate that or be anywhere from one and a half million dollars to design this project. With a total project cost would most likely be around the 22, 23 million dollar project, but like I said earlier, you'll get those updated numbers next week. And that's the end. That's this one yet. Thank you. Questions, comments? We're going to take away table talk on this one as well, so we'll keep it all in one section. I'll be really quick. I just want to say that drainage is probably the least sexy thing we're going to look at in this whole bond. It looks like a water slide, but it's not as cool as a water slide. But bang for our buck, one of the very best things we can spend bond money on. If you go back and look at the last four or five years of city council meetings trying to find funding for this part of this project, because the other part you saw has already been completed, has been difficult looking under every stone, looking at different pots of money, looking at different regional partners and stuff. Finding the funding has been very difficult, but look at the number of businesses and homes that are out of the floodplain and what this can do for downtown. This is maybe the most important project we're going to look at this whole project, or excuse me, this whole process, and it's rainwater. It's stormwater and stuff. So don't underestimate the value of putting some of this underground and moving that stormwater further downstream. And look for more of these projects in the future, because there's more opportunities around town. Thank you. I wanted to ask about the channels that are near the Carroll Courts building in Oakland. Some of the older parts of town you could see that they had the stone walls. Those were actually installed during WPA, the works project. I'm so tired, y'all. I'm sure y'all are too. My brain has quit. There's some historic significance to that. Is there a possibility of saving those and utilizing them for some other type of project for the community? Yeah, great question. So we actually already have 95% plans on this. We were able to use some drainage funding to get part of this project already designed. So portions of the channel in front of the Carroll Courts building, actually it was really close to the Carroll Courts building, the boxes you can see we propose are going to be in the street. So we would actually connect those existing stone channels into these boxes and leave those in place. And so that would be kind of drainage for those properties that would then connect to the main boxes in the street. So our main boxes would not leave kind of Mulberry, Bernard, but of course as we go north and south it would cut in between the homes as we went that direction. So I just want to encourage you guys and I really appreciate you saying we're going to update these costs. Nothing more frustrating than going to these committees, do the work, go out and convince people, get them excited. And like this one, we got a lot of these downtown property owners excited only to find out later that the project was going to stop at Elm because the cost estimates that were used were old. So I really encourage you guys to think about like I would much rather you overestimate and say this one we think will happen, the work will happen sometime between whatever, 25 and 27 and the project will cost likely somewhere between this and this than to assign a value to it and then the next bond committee is here and we're hearing about quiet zones that were 10% funded, right? And so I would rather have overestimated costs which give us a little bit of cushion that allow us when we prioritize at the end, we want to make sure we have a big enough bucket of money because I think some of our citizens, I've heard it, they get frustrated with there's another bond election but you've only spent half of what you got seven or eight years ago. And to piggyback on what Jesse said, if you take a drive and just look south of the square between Locust and Elm and look at the revitalization that's happening as a result of the first phase of this, it will be five times that when this one happens. So I would really encourage everybody, Jesse's right, it's not sexy but five to ten years later when you see what happens and the tax base that gets created because we made the investment, these things will pay for themselves an additional tax base but we got to get them done and so please give us safe estimates. And we'll be creating Drainage's sexy t-shirts for everyone at the next couple meetings. I'll buy one of those t-shirts and I want to pile on to what everyone else is saying. I mean the downtown is some of our most efficient acre per acre tax revenue makers so this is going to pay for itself. I'm curious if anybody in the room at all can estimate a dollar value of how much we unlock by removing these areas out of the floodplain or I can parking lot that if we think it's possible to even get that number. I think we can work with our development services team and our downtown economic team to get those numbers. Any other comments or questions on this one? And you guys are moving right along. Yeah, Susie. I'll be quick. So as far as completing this project, are there any thoughts or plans of putting anything on top of the channels that y'all are putting in? So most of these are under the street if I remember correctly. Yeah, so Trevor's right. Most of it's in the street. The portion that goes from Prairie Street all the way up to Mulberry will still have to have surface drainage so you'll still have flumes with inlets on top of the boxes so it's probably not the safest best idea to put people through there and of course these will also be really close to folks' homes so having people walking through backyards and stuff may be a little bit invasive. Alright, next item, number seven and the last one, public art. Thank you guys. Okay, we've arrived at the last presentation. Mindy, I hope you can hang in there for it. So as a committee you have a charge as you're thinking about all these projects. You have a decision, do you want public art to be in and if yes, then what percentage do you want to fund it? Some background information on how prior committees have handled public art. So in 2020-2012 Vaughn Program they did 2% of all projects which was a very large amount of public art, $400,000. After that happened in 2012 the city council came back and did a revised public art policy that spoke to any future bond city council will determine will consider anywhere between 2-4% of basically vertical construction projects, ones that didn't apply to streets, drainage, traffic control or other related infrastructure. So the 2014 Vaughn Program was the next one after that revised public art policy and they did 2% of the vertical construction projects. They did amend that policy into a small portion to streets, the majority of it to the public safety facilities which were part of that proposition and then $180,000 to park system improvements. In 2019 they did things a little differently and again they did a revision to the art policy and did a separate proposition for public art. And that proposition did not pass that separate proposition. A couple different art projects in the community. So your decision, your charge as the committee is to decide and maybe have these options backwards is first you can recommend not to include public art. The second option is you can include to recommend it and then what percentage would you like to make a recommendation on. So starting in meeting 5 and 6 you're going to have those updated numbers. We have a cap in which you are unable to go over. So right now 2% of the vertical construction projects. So 2%, 3% or 4% on the current projects. That's right now what you're seeing currently as presented. So if you change, if you leave library in, take another structure out, those percentages will change and then you'll be making a recommendation. And just a quick reminder as part of this you're not considering any specific projects. So public art right now is governed by, there's a public art policy, there's a public art master plan the city's adopted and then we have a public art committee. And in addition to that any bond program which public art is included in goes through a bond oversight committee. So projects once they're funded then we'll go through the public art committee to determine what type of art at the specific locations and we'll go through that ultimately council approval process before any projects are started. And that question has come up in a couple different ones I wanted to hit on. So bond funds are dedicated to the purchase and installation of the art and then ongoing maintenance as part of the parks and recreation operating budget. Any questions on public art? Christine, one quick question. Does the policy at one point require that the art be a part of the project that was approved by the voters? Is that still what the policy is? That's correct unless you amend it to do a separate one for streets but yes it does have to be connected to it. So in some of those pictures where in prior bonds you've had a fire station there's public art out at that facility. In the 2014 one I think it showed there was a street dollar amount for streets which is the roundabout over near the hospital where you're seeing that dog star public art on the roundabout. So the location of the art would be tied to the proximity of the projects that are approved in the propositions. Any of the vertical projects? Correct. Questions? How much money is in the public art fund today? I don't have that. So I don't have that. We can follow up on what that fund balance looks like. They get an allocation annually from hot funds but major projects are typically funded out of the bond program. So the utility wraps that you're seeing on some of the utility boxes right now came from that budget. They go after different grants for public art but we'll send through the parking lot what their current balance is. Okay because there was a half million dollars in the public art fund in 2019. During that bond program? And if you can tell around town Parks and Recreation and the Public Art Committee has done an amazing job the last couple years. There is so much public art throughout the community so we'll see if that was maybe utilized when it's gone down. For the design and creation of the art pieces, does that go to artists in Denton or does that money stay in Denton? So we're giving it but it's sort of reinvesting back in the community a bit. Public art has a little bit different procurement policies than typically anything else the city procures. We do go out and do a call for artists and there is an evaluation so they do the evaluation committee does have the opportunity to say we want that to be a local artist but there's not a requirement that it has to be a local artist. My question is on that slide where you said proposed we have option one and option two. Could this committee decide or make a recommendation for an option three which would be we want to include in this bond election one million dollars or two million dollars whatever the number is specifically for public art and not have it be a percentage and not have it be no we don't want it included? I think you can make that recommendation and because that's previously what's been done is to go back and just amend that policy so yes. I think if you're wanting to determine a certain dollar amount we would then need to do recommend to council and then we do an amendment to the public art policy prior to going in at any proposition. Okay thanks. Any other questions or discussion on this topic? Okay thank you Christine and we just in the nick of time. As one who has lived here since 1957 when we didn't have public art to speak of at all I think it has made an amazing difference in our city. I just what we've done about public art and I hope we continue. Thank you. Okay we have one more topic relating to the facilities tour in case there's any conversation about that. We wanted to have a point on the agenda for it but before we get to that the facilitators at your table have those half sheets of paper for the temperature gauge that we did. Hopefully you saw the results of that which I think is helpful to just kind of get a sense of what those are and this will help bring us up to date in case there's any movement on any of our thoughts on those projects as well as the ones we heard today. So while you guys can do that I wanted to see in item C hold a discussion to provide feedback regarding the June 10th facilities tour. Any comments or discussion? There doesn't have to be much but we wanted to make a placeholder in here in case there was. I just wanted to thank all the staff that came along with us and not all of them are here the department heads and at the facilities but everybody just did an excellent job explaining things and answering questions and not all of our questions were expected or even necessarily pertinent to what they expected to be talking about but the staff just did a fantastic job doing the tour and facilitating it and answering questions at each site. So thank you. And just a quick comment, if you are having trouble facilitating the survey through your phone, the temperature gauge, I think we have some options there in the back to be able to help you do that while you're here because this will eventually turn off at some point and so we want to make sure you have the option to do that. Any other comments? It's laptops, yes. So if somebody needs a bigger screen or your device is dying, there are laptops in the back you can use and I think last time we closed it down shortly after the meeting. Any other comments or discussion relating to the facilities tour? Okay, well we'll close out that item and then real quick before we adjourn on including items, we had a couple questions about kind of the meetings moving forward. There's no meeting scheduled for next week and then there's a meeting for the next week and then the following week. The following week is July 7th I believe and there has been some conversation as to whether or not folks are out on vacation. That's July 4th week with July 4th hitting a Tuesday I think. So the option is to be able to actually move that meeting back a week. So I'm throwing that out there as a pitch for you all not to discuss right now but that we'll follow up via email if you have any thoughts one way or the other on moving that to the subsequent week. We have the ability to do so and get it out of that July 4th week and into the following week. So I'll throw something out. If you have comments, email me contact me via phone or email after this meeting and we don't want to screw up anyone's schedule if you already kind of scheduled that in but if it's an option to do that we might be able to since it's the last meeting get more people involved in that final important discussion. Alright with that, finish up your survey and thank you all for your patience and time and attention. We are adjourned.