Oct 01, 2018 Traffic Safety Commission on 2018-10-01 6:00 PM

The first item on our agenda is items 1, items for consideration. 1A is TSC 18-036 to consider the approval of the Traffic Safety Commission meetings of September 17, 2018. Did everyone have a chance to look at the minutes? Are there any corrections? Sorry for that. Are there any corrections or amendments to those minutes? Move, we approve. Okay. We have one motion for approval. Do I have a second? Second. We have a second. Does everyone vote in favor? Anyone opposed? Okay. Minutes passed unanimously. Item 1B, TSC 18-037 is to receive a training and hold a discussion on City Boards and Commission training. Good evening, everyone. My name is Preetam Deshmukh. Last week, we, the staff, city staff received a training. It was more in line with how do you run these meetings? There are several board and committee--committees throughout the city. What are the things that you need to know? How do you run the meeting? And what are the things you need to watch out for? So I'm going to quickly play a training video and then we can discuss if we have any questions, we can get some answers. There it is. I see YouTube. Yeah, we have a YouTube channel. If lots of them, why don't we have one? Okay. [Video played] Congratulations on your appointment to one of our city's boards, commissions, or city council committees. Boards and commissions are essential to the successful function of city government, and your contributions will upshake the future of Denton. You will be studying and recommending policy application on a variety of issues vital to the city's future. This training is designed to assist you in your service. As a companion to your boards and commissions handbook, this video will provide a general introduction to topics and processes that directly affect members of boards, including an overview of the city of Denton government structure, general membership information, applicability of conflict of interest in open government laws, and procedural rules governing meetings. The city attorney, city secretary, and staff liaisons are also available to assist you in your role as a board member. The Denton city charter was adopted in 1959 and is the basic governing authority of the city. The charter determines the form of municipal government, the composition and powers of the city council, and establishes the legal framework necessary for a city to function. The charter establishes a council manager form of government where the city council serves as political leaders and policy makers and retains a professionally trained manager to oversee the delivery of public services. 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Other information regarding public participation in meetings may be found in the rules of procedure in the appendix section of your handbook. Again, congratulations on your appointment and thank you so much for your interest in serving your community. Your efforts will make Denton a better place to live and work. Any questions on this? I do have a question. Do you have a handbook? We can look into that. I'll get with the city secretary and if there are specific handbooks we can have that given to you. You mentioned you had a handbook and I'm like, "Mm-hmm." The magical handbook. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Any other questions, comments? Okay. So everybody's up to speed now. Okay. The next item of business is 1CTSC 18-03A, which is to receive a report and hold a discussion and make a recommendation to city council for approval of an amendment for advanced funding agreement for furnishing and installing of traffic signal equipment by municipality at the intersection of FM 2499 and Robinson Road. Okay. This is a similar item. It is an agreement between the city and TechStat to provide for funding specific signal equipment. So typically what happens is TechStat, when they go in and widen these streets and corridors, they install signals at intersections that require signal ization. And while doing so, the equipment is bought by TechStat, their contractors, and they install them. A lot of times what happens when we go that route, some of the equipment that is crucial to our communications, talking to different other signal equipment throughout the city, the type of equipment, the specifications of the equipment are not consistent and the contractor loses it in the contract. So what we try to do is we provide our own specific type of equipment, city buys it and provides it to TechStat while they're going through the construction. The ultimate goal being city is through an interlocal agreement, city manages all the traffic signals throughout the city for all TechStat facilities. So ultimately we want to make sure that we can communicate with the signal, we can maintain them, we have the right equipment to replace, and that's why we have to make sure that we're consistent in all the signal equipment. This is similar to the item that we brought forward for another intersection along FM2181 last time around. And this is an agreement amendment. This particular FM2499 stretch had two signalized intersections, one at State School, which is right here, this is signalized, and then the other one was Unicorn Lakes. So these two signals are already in place and the agreement between the city and TechStat has been signed. The signalized intersection at Robinson and 2499 was added at a later stage and this is where we're back for an amendment. And staff recommendation is, commissioners, traffic safety commission recommends council for moving forward with this amendment and getting reimb ursed for the signal equipment that we've already supplied to TechStat. Any questions? Is this the same intersection we were looking at last week? So last, there is a little bit of confusion I think. Last week we came here for a no right turn on red. But it's the same intersection. It is the same intersection. But last week we came for an amendment of a different intersection on 2181. So the agreement was for a different location. This is an agreement for Robinson at 2499. Okay any discussion? Any questions for Preetam? I just want to make sure I understand because I'm new. So the city's already provided the equipment. You're simply saying yes, pay for it? Is that what we're doing? Preetam? I apologize for that. Typically it is not, this is sort of backwards typically. What happens is TechStat designs all these corridors and the signals and all the plans are prepared. Then they make sure that they list all the intersections in the agreement. And then that goes through the process of traffic safety commission approving it, recommending it to the city council. And then they go for construction. In this case they did not anticipate signalizing Robinson at 2499. So the work has already been completed. And now we're in the process of backtracking and how can we get our money back for the equipment that we've already provided. I have a question about what changed then. If they were anticipating the building of these roads and did not originally anticipate the need for traffic signaling at that intersection, what changed? The city convinced them. Typically for example on 2181, if you take an example on Te asley, we already know what the traffic is. It's a two lane highway. We know what the traffic is on the cross street. So you can go out there, collect existing data, do a signal warrants analysis. And based on that, okay, a signal is warranted. There is already one there. So TechStat goes ahead and designs it in their widening project. When there is a brand new facility, something like 2499, they do not have the data. So a lot of times their approach at looking at things is once we construct it, we'll collect the data at the later stage and then we'll implement it. So when we went back and forth, we had to do a lot of convincing and prove that if you leave this intersection un-signalized, there will be a lot of backup on Robinson. They were planning an all-way stop here. And yeah, we lived through that phase of this project, all the way stop. Okay. All right. So who issued the change order on that, the city or the state? The state is trying to amend their agreement with the city. Trying to? This is an amendment. So it will... Oh, I thought I was on. Greenline. Greenline. Hello. I'm sorry. Hi. Again, the change order was issued by, as I understand, the state? Correct. The state realized they only have an agreement for two intersections. And since the city went ahead and helped them construct this third intersection, supplied the equipment already because it's running, they have issued an amendment to their existing agreement. A comment? For somebody like me who's relatively new to the community, I can look 2181 all day long, but this map doesn't show it that way. Do you have maps to correspond to the FM 2181 or 2499 as opposed to Robinson Road? So we don't necessarily have a map that shows FM 2499, but this Barrelstrap Road and State School Road, this from FM 2181 is right here. From this point all the way to 35E. If you go further south at some point, this will show up as FM 2499. But it's just a matter of which view you're looking at. An observation from last week, if I could. We were taking a vote and it came up that if we voted a certain way, we would lose some money? Correct. For a future, if that would be impacting on another future decision, can you state that as part of the review for us up front? Okay, yes, definitely. It sets a precedence for the future projects that we're bringing forward. Very good, thank you. You can leave it on. Any other questions, comments? I would just say that maybe for Melissa's, since she wasn't here at the last one, we voted against one which we learned after the vote means that the city paid out the money and does not recoup it from the state. We reconsidered it and got the state to kick in. So a no vote on this one would arrive at the same situation , right, Pritam? Correct. Okay, thanks. Anyone ready to make a motion? I'll make a motion to approve. Do we have a second? I'll second. Okay, do we have a second? Yeah, make sure the green lights are on. Okay, everyone in favor of the motion? Aye. Okay, anyone opposed? And that passes unanimously. Awesome. Okay, that brings us to item 1D, TSC 18-039, which is to receive a report, hold discussion regarding neighborhood traffic management measures, traffic calming in the city of Denton. So traffic calming, this is a presentation that went before council to have specifically asked for this particular item to be brought forward. And this went in last week, Wednesday, part of it, I'm going to go through it. If you have any questions in the middle, just stop me at a particular traffic calming option that you're looking at. And I think this starts or sets the stage moving forward for the city. What is our process? How are we dealing with neighborhood speeding concerns? What are we doing as far as cut through traffic? How do we address neighborhood issues? There's been a lot of neighborhoods within the community that have raised this concern. As Denton continues to grow, traffic on the major arterials is finding ways around neighborhoods and getting through smaller streets at a higher speed. That's something that no one really likes in their neighborhood, in their front yard. So these are certain, this is how we're trying to handle this. I'll also talk about some next steps towards the end of the presentation. But in general, what are we doing? So what is traffic calming? It is mainly used for reducing speed as well as high cut through traffic through neighborhood streets. So really local residential streets, that where you have actual driveways and you back out on the street while you're getting out of your houses. On those particular streets, what are the steps? How do we address this? So the first, look at the three step method that we are, the first thing we do is educate people, make them aware of the situation. A lot of times there have been neighborhoods where neighbors themselves, people that live in the actual neighborhood subdivision community are participant to some of the speeding and other activities. So a lot of times if there's local awareness that helps address some of the issues. The second step is definitely enforcement. We focus a lot on enforcement and I'll go through what police department staff is currently doing and what kind of method they're using. And then last, engineering, which is how do we physically address this issue using engineering? How do we narrow streets down, put in some of the traffic calming devices in place so that actual traffic slows down or is forced to slow down because of the features. So the first step, education and enforcement go hand in hand. Police department uses this method called SARA, which is scan, analyze, respond and assess. So once they get a speeding complaint, the first thing they are doing is doing speed studies to understand are people really speeding through this neighborhood? What is the percentage? Are a lot of people speeding? If they're more than 85th percentile speed is more than the posted speed limit, then the police department staff continues to for the next two to three weeks do a robust education and enforcement campaign. It's a combination of stopping people warning them if they 're in a different range and then enforcing or ticketing them if they're really above, way above the posted speed limit. After that two to three weeks, another second study is conducted and that's where they want to focus their attention on has the behavior changed? If there are any changes in the behavior, have people really started understanding that these are not the streets that they should be traveling at the rate that they're doing? And the last one is a third speed study and this is typically about two months after the second and they want to go back and see if the changes that they're trying to bring about are they permanent? Not permanent. So this is the process that we go through in the first two steps. Now at the end of this particular process, if it continues to happen that the speeders continue to speed, if there's a large amount of cut through traffic, then the next item that we look at is engineering. Okay, Tim, I have a question about the 85 percent, 85 percent of the vehicles are above the posted speed limit. How is that decision made? So this is through a lot of engineering studies and data collection that traffic engineers throughout the nation have come to the conclusion that depending on the clues and the environment that a person is driving, typically if 85 percent of the people are driving under a certain speed, that is identified as a speed limit for that particular roadway. So if you really have a wide street, large street and people are really driving at a kind of fast rate, then that becomes a normal norm because the environment that you're driving, the driver gets comfortable. It's more of a psychological assessment. And the more and more features, if you have more residential features, if you have narrow street or parking and the types of, that's part of the options that we have for traffic calming, then it makes it less desirable for any driver to be traveling at that particular speed. So if 85 percent of the people are driving at a speed limit or below it, then that becomes your speed limit or that's the 85 percent. So that's a national standard. That's a national standard. And then in some neighborhoods, is there a way for us in Denton then to have more of a graduated look at that? Like there are some neighborhoods where if 20 percent of the drivers are above the speed limit, then the risk to children, to pedestrians, to cycl ists on the road is more intense. Correct. So I think that's the next step is to go to engineering and force people to slow down at some of these nodes, intersections or along the stretch of the street. There are different options that can be looked into as to when you're entering a specific neighborhood or when you're going through a neighborhood, what are the options? If there's a lot of cut through traffic, because a lot of times it's not the local residents that are living in the community, a lot of cut through folks that are rushing through the area. So there are different alternatives that we can go through. And yeah, absolutely engineering is a way to address that. Thank you. So I want to start with what are the most common requests when it comes to slowing people down and there are some misconceptions associated with that. So the number one request is stop signs. Everyone wants a stop sign along the corridor so that people will slow down and stop at each and every intersection. On the contrary, studies have shown that if a person is traveling and stop signs are placed to reduce speed, not necessarily warranted, there's a whole warrant process that goes through the stop sign, but if they're not warranted, they 're installed for slowing folks down, they will come to a rolling stop first and then second, they will try and speed up between the intersections. So those studies have proven that it is not really an effective tool and second, if it's not warranted, it cannot be enforced. So it's not enforceable, we cannot regulate that, PD cannot go out and ticket if it's not warranted. So if there is a case if someone challenges, legally we cannot really issue a citation. So that is a misconception. Stop signs are typically installed based on federal and state guidelines and those yield and stop signs, these are regulatory signs, cannot be used for speed control. So that's the first thing. And I'll get on, touch a little bit more on the speed house , but that's the second most common, that's the second most common request for reducing speed. This is the process that we typically follow. Obviously when we get, I touched on the first couple, we get a request, we go through the education enforcement piece. Part of that also includes data collection and assessment. And here's how we determine eligibility is if your average volume is, average daily volume is 1000 vehicles or 100 peak hour vehicles, that's a good candidate for a street to look at cut through traffic as well as speeding. The 85th percentile, we talked about that, if the 85th percentile speed is five or more than the speed limit, so for example 30 miles an hour is the speed limit, if majority of the folks, 85 percent are going more than that, five more than that, more than 35, so that at that point it becomes a good candidate to get into the next step for looking at engineering solutions. And then of course a lot of cut through traffic with 100 trips in there. So what do we do after we get all this data? We develop a plan, traffic calming is, I wouldn't say controversial, but very choice specific between different residents, some residents like it, certain ways, some don't. So we do have to develop a plan and get a neighborhood meeting, a community sort of most preferred alternative, not everyone's going to agree, but if we go through the process of reaching out to the community and saying this is the majority of the folks, this is a better option than the other one, at that point that concept is chosen and then we can move forward with the next steps as far as funding, engineering design, and then after that construction portion just assess the effectiveness, evaluate it, how much is, this is the process that staff typically follows. We are actually in the preliminary stages of implementing this everywhere. This is something new that the city has started so that we can address some resident concerns. Yes, Jim. One of the factors, I saw the presentation you did at the other one. One of the factors is it might be a temporary problem because of road construction. Correct. So if you're going to do three studies and you're going to do them within two months, it may not be the good approach. Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up. We are going through a similar issue along some of the neighborhoods off of FM 2181. There are certain parallels, North, South Street that run through neighborhood and people cut over into that neighborhood. So as TechStop moves forward with some of their projects, we move forward with our bigger capital projects. We identify a lot of these neighborhoods that are going to be on a temporary basis. One of the things that we're also looking at is what is a temporary engineering solution? By that I mean how can we install some of these traffic calming devices on a temporary basis, on a bolt down basis, or are there any signs and markings that we can use better? So there are different ways of looking at it. We can actually go ahead and install curbs or bulb outs using temporary rubberized curbs that will be bolted throughout the construction period of a year or two years, and then we can be removed after the issue has been resolved. So there are several ways that we can address this issue. Yes? What do you think is the cause of the problem? What leads to roads that ... the problem in the first place , is it the roads are built too wide? Is it just that there's congestion in other areas? Is there anything planning long term we can do differently, and are we doing it? So yes, the main cause of this is how well the city is planned. Are there master plans in place? Have you already identified major arterials and thorough fare that should be in place when the traffic arrives? So it's a combination of development happening at the same time the city's trying to implement their master plan. So a lot of times there is not really an overlap. We miss the dates. The schedules are not the same. So by the time one of the capital project goes in, there's already two subdivisions in place. So that kind of creates an issue that that subdivision receives a lot of cut through traffic until the project goes in. The prime example is FM 2181. 2181 has been in the design for 10 years. It's just by the time it went to construction, it is ... we 're in 2018. So what has happened if 2181 was already constructed to a full six lane facility as it's planned today, then some of this neighborhood cut through traffic and speeding would have not occurred. So it's a matter of scheduling. And as we grow, city is going to go through some sort of pains. How many of these street sites are ... can you do it once as a study? We can look at a total neighborhood for a study. So there are areas that can be identified saying, for example, I think Fulton is a great example. There is Fulton intersection at Egan. There are several intersections along Fulton near Denton High, between Denton High and US 380 and that whole neighborhood. So instead of just focusing on one street or one intersection, we can look at the grid system of all the streets coming in and create a wholesome plan that says, okay, within this neighborhood there are certain areas that should be restricted or deter people by implementing some of these traffic calming devices. So they would not use those, instead use University or some of the larger streets that are meant for traffic. Any other questions? I'll move on. Okay, so these are the options that are a bunch of more. So these are about 14. We have some more that are not listed here. I'm going to focus on the first seven on the left side. So I'm going to talk about all of these. These are there. If you're interested, I can provide more information on what exactly they are and pros and cons and stuff like that. Let's start with speed humps. Everyone knows what that is. It's a three, four inch bump in the road, which is about 12 to 20 feet wide with the typical width of the road. And then it's commonly used for traffic calming. Appropriate locations are in mid-block, generally on a street and in the residential neighborhood. What are the advantages? Yeah, it is effective in slowing traffic. Relatively low cost. It's a matter of adding a little bit more asphalt. But once you start focusing in on the disadvantages, things get much more clear why. The main issue is the emergency response. This is not so much so that it would reduce the response time or affect it as much. It's more of a hazard for paramedics. It's ambulances going over these. And when patients, especially when patients are in, the amount of displacement or the amount of speed that they can drive on considerably reduces . So that's a major concern. It definitely is an issue. If it's a major transit route, you don't want the bus to slow down every single speed hump that you're in. And then the last one is the drainage concerns. If the speed hump extends all the way to the drainage, definitely there are issues of water not moving forward. So these are the main drawbacks. And that's why speed humps, typically the easiest one, are not recommended because they have some serious drawbacks. What is the alternative? Well, why is it that you said it's the most requested? And is it simply because people don't know that there is an entire suite of other options? Is that the default setting? Correct. It has been used widely. And that's what people know. So there's a lot more information out there about that as opposed to anything else. So this is an improved version of the speed humps. These are called speed cushions. And they do exactly what the speed humps do, but they do have these grooves that are spaced such that only emergency vehicles with wider wheelbase, axlebase, can actually drive through these grooves. No trucks, passenger vehicles cannot drive through these grooves because their axle bases are not wide enough. I think this is about 71 inches wide, 70 or 71. So if there are places such that you have these spaces in there and then there is space at the end near the drainage, so drainage issues go away, the emergency vehicle issues go away. This is a better picture. And to your point, Commissioner Owens, that these are bolt downs, so you can put them for a couple years and then take them out when construction is completed or the issue has gone away. One of the also a good aspect of the bolt downs is it can also be used as an educational tool. So if an area or a community feels that majority of the people that are really speeding in our area are locals, are folks that live in, and all we need is more education, get everyone on board, then we can implement this for six months or a year, a couple years, take it out after that so that people get in a routine of following that habit. So obviously there are several advantages here. It does help in reducing vehicular speeds, minimal impact to emergency vehicles, and then you can also use them on emergency route. One of the drawbacks that's shown here, there might be some traffic diversion. If you install those, people are not going to use the same route. They might go to the neighborhood streets. So that's why when we look at traffic calming, we look at the grid pattern. We look at all the streets and identify if certain aspects or if the traffic would be diverted. If it will be, then we have to come up with a different plan to address. On street parking, as I alluded to a little bit early, this is also part or can be used for calming traffic when there are narrower lanes, when there's little width available for driving on. Then people tend to go slow, they stay away from some of these cars that are already parked, thinking you might hit someone's doors or someone's probably getting out. You're cautious, you're attentive. So that helps calm traffic. So here are some of the advantages. It helps reduce it. It also acts as a buffer between the pedestrians on the sidewalk and the actual vehicles traveling in the lanes. Disadvantage clearly are visibility of pedestrians. That's a big disadvantage that if there are cars parked too close, there are gaps that pedestrians can run through, especially kids. And/or if you want to step outside the curb and cross the street, it becomes an issue for visibility. So there are obviously some risks associated with this. And then even risk for cyclists for dooring. I mean, that's also common. If a cyclist is using the travel lanes, then someone opens the door, that becomes an issue. Traffic circles, this is slightly separate. This is different than the roundabouts. This is a typical intersection. That's where you can install those. And every person that enters a circle has to negotiate on the right side so they go around the circle. These are typically installed with either yield signs so that people, when they're approaching an intersection, they yield to the traffic within the circle. They're not advised for higher volumes because it's not designed for a higher volume. Here are some of these advantages. The potential conflict points are very little because any person coming into the intersection is only looking to their left. So they're only conflicting one direction of traffic. And then you can actually landscape some of this to enhance the appearance of the neighborhood. So that's traffic circle. What are some of the disadvantages? It's difficult for emergency vehicles to go through the circle. Essentially what traffic circle does is this island in the middle impedes any through traffic to go fast. It forces everyone to really slow down, make this very slowly, and then continue going. So it does help even though they're not completely coming to a stop, they're slowing considerably down. And if you have some of these at certain intersections or intervals, you can definitely help create an impact on the actual speed of flowing through the corridor. They're also an issue for larger vehicles, trucks, buses that cannot turn in. But if you're in a smaller neighborhood that doesn't have that much of that traffic, then those are the places you can install them. Some impacts for on-street parking at the corners. The on-street parking at the corners have to be restricted so cars can get over closer to the curb and then turn. So those are some of the disadvantages. So the traffic circle is a roundabout with a smaller footprint. Are there other pieces that are different? They're different. I'll pull up a roundabout. Traffic circle is not a roundabout. It's more of an intersection with an island in the middle. And this island in the middle, what it essentially is doing is forcing people to slow down because they can no longer go through the intersection. What a roundabout does, which is next, what a roundabout does is actually channelizes people with these deflector islands. It will channelize people to enter this area slowly with much wider turning radius on each side. So a little bit more space is required. You have to better plan this. And with this, the only thing you're looking at while you 're yielding is this one vehicle coming in. And there could be multiple vehicles within this round area around. It's a much larger area. And while exiting, you're exiting at a different angle. So the angles are different. They force vehicles to enter much slower. And there can be several vehicles within the island, within this area inside the roundabout. Circulating vehicle, these are all the things. Parking is not allowed within this area. And then all of the vehicles circulate counterclockwise, passing through the island. So when you're talking about the traffic circle and you said that it's best in an application where the intersection sees fewer than 3,500 trips a day? Correct. Are there -- give me an example of an intersection that you might be aware of that would fit the definition for that application? So these are smaller intersections, definitely. And I'm not sure about the 3,500 because I don't have the count numbers on top of my head. But some of the intersections within that Fulton/Egan can be looked at to really slow down someone that is passing through that intersection at a very high speed. So when they're passing through the intersection, they know that there is an island and they have to slow down. So definitely it will slow down. You don't have to make any changes to the outside curve at these intersections. So that's why this is an option instead of having a full-bl own roundabout where you have to redesign and rework everything. This is like an inner option that you can throw in there. And this would be something, if you were going to plan for a traffic circle, you would have to get, for instance, bus patterns because of the difficulty of making a left turn and location to the nearest fire station. Correct. So emergency routes and bus routes and we have to identify all of that. So as long as you find that you have an intersection where you know that there's not going to be public transportation or school transportation needing to make the left. If they could come in from another way and they're aware of that, then that would be it. These folks can still make a left. They have to go around and the turn angle is very restrictive to buses and large vehicles. Okay. So right and right out islands, these are right and right out as the name suggests. It is at an intersection where no left movements out of that particular neighborhood or in to that neighborhood are allowed. And as I mentioned, this is mostly at intersections where a smaller street, residential neighborhood or other type of street comes in and intersects a major arterial or a major collector. So this is an intersection where you really don't want that main street traffic to really use or enter your neighborhood making left from either direction or getting out of your neighborhood. You just want the quick right and right out folks that can go in and out. So it's a partial access. There is a complete closure also. There's that, that is an option. There are other options for that. It reduces traffic on local streets, improves pedestrian crossing. If you look at there, it creates a refuge area for pedestrians. So someone has to only look in one direction to cross. And then it may divert traffic to some parallel streets. So it could be, it could be worked in a combination of one is right and right out. The other one gets a full access or vice versa, depending on the type of residential street and how much traffic they have. It can be worked into the whole traffic calming. Next one is curb extensions. These are bulb outs. Typically the intersection is narrowed out. You take out parking and bring in the curbs outside. So when cars are entering, this is not a full wide intersection, but it's actually a narrow place. So when you're approaching the intersection, you're really slowing down and then you go through the intersection. So this is creating more of a effect that you have very little space to go through this place. So it creates that sense of narrowing and feeling of, okay, I need to slow down or else I'm going to hit the curb. It is appropriate for local roads on some of the collectors and arterials. It works well in the downtown area. I think this will be considered as part of one of the improvements for the Mew Street. I'm not sure if you're aware of the streets that are behind the square, Austin, Pecan. Those are looked into for redesigning and this is one of the options that will be considered. How can we make it more of an entry point that's safe for pedestrians and bicycles and everyone as opposed to a thoroughfare for vehicles to just go through that area? And then it can also be used as mid-block locations. There are advantages and disadvantages. It does definitely improve pedestrian safety because pedestrians are way out here in front of the traffic as opposed to way back here. It may help reduce some of the travel speeds because you're entering a narrow area. It does prevent illegal parking. I think this gets more into a space where UNT and TW, all the universities that are running into the issue of parked cars near intersections. They're so close to the intersections that they are blocking visibility. They're so close to driveways that people can't even get out of their driveway. All that can be avoided with some of this where the parking itself is eliminated. You're technically enforcing your existing ordinance which requires vehicles to be parked 30 feet from the intersection stop signs. So this bringing out of the curb will help enforce some of our parking problems. And then obviously with some landscaping and all, it improves the appearance. Of course, loss of parking may prevent right turns at the intersection. This is leading to a larger vehicles, buses, and trucks trying to make this right turn when there is already a vehicle here. So they have to probably wait until that vehicle clears and then you make a wide angle turn. And then it may create some difficulties for bicyclists if there's a bike lane that's next to the curb. But some of those issues can be looked at when we're actually recommending the types of traffic calming options. This one, last one that came about, this is use of public art in traffic calming. And there are several cities that are being created, use of murals on the wall or public art within an island area, median area. Some are using landscaping, lighting, paint on the pavement and stuff like that. This all helps. It gives that feel of, this is something new, I need to slow down a little bit and look at this. It helps. Maintenance wise, there is a pavement, this pavement marking, maintenance is an issue. You have to maintain it a lot. The other issue that comes across using public art is once you've seen it and you see it for a couple times, the third time you're not going to slow down. So you have to constantly be doing something about, you know, refreshing it, changing it, moving it, something like that. So this is still pretty much a starting point or a starting idea and we will develop more as we move forward. Have there been any studies on that to show the... There has been one to show the impact and pretty much to the face of it, it's inconclusive but what they're saying is within the next two, within the first two or three weeks, the impact or the effect is considerably reduced for slowing people down. That's what it says. There are not that many studies or there are not that many locations as it has been really helpful. Oops. And then next steps, this is the last slide. We're going to compile this information and the other seven that we had, all that information into a easy to read format. It will work with our public communications office to put it online, get into brochures and pamphlets and then finally this will be developed into a handbook and the handbook will get into more details of, okay, what are the design specifications, what are the engineering behind some of these alternatives and how do we implement them? And then finally we'll take this handbook once it's done, bring to the committee and then present it to city council for adoption. Those are our next steps. Any questions? I have one. Yes. So somebody I know brought up the road next to the North Lakes Park and how people go fairly fast through there and they had mentioned that there 's a light, a blinking light that you can click on and people can go across there. And they think that works and this was, I didn't see this mentioned. Is that considered a calming device? That is more of a pedestrian safety device because you can cross. Signage and pavement marking is part of traffic calming. Those are the really preliminary steps before you even get into heavy engineering and putting some of these high dollar things. The first step is more of educating people and part of that process is what kind of signage can I install, what kind of pavement markings I can install . And then, yeah, it is more for the safety of the pedestrians crossing. Is that why we have the light? It's not for slowing vehicles. Okay. Thank you. I wonder, has there been any discussion? It seems like some of these would be really good ideas right off the square because right now our roads just really, you're driving slow on the square. There's all these things to look at. So people go slow and then it just opens up and people gun it, especially like I'm thinking of on locust when you're going north. So I just would see like there even at McKinney would be a great spot to like bring out the curbs and slow everyone down right in that area. Is that TextDot though? Both those, Locust and Elm are TextDot facilities. And we are in the process of taking that over as a city street. Awesome. So TextDot has alluded that they want to get rid of that. So part of those two streets, we're going to look at how do we make them more complete streets as opposed to just highways or free, which was they intended to use back in the day was it was more of a highway which went through the city. Now it's more of a complete street where how do we move people? How do we make it pedestrian and bike friendly? So we're going to definitely look at the Mew Street, but yes, you can definitely extend it not only north side, even on the south side as some of the properties develop, we can definitely put it in. There's so much room there. There's we can put everything there. Park cars on both sides, two bike lanes. There's so much space though on Locust. Is there a timeline for City of Denton taking over the Text Dot? Yeah, I think we're going out to bid pretty soon for the for the utility relocation portion. And then right after that will come a complete street rehab by TextDot and then we'll take it over. We'll get it fixed and then take it over. Oh, that'll be nice. Okay. So what happens then after we have this handbook? Will the city be reaching out to the neighborhoods or will the neighborhoods need to know to come to the city? And then who funds this potential hardscaping and? So that's a good point. I think we're taking smaller steps at this point. Once the handbook is set, once we have a process set, then we'll also establish how do we accept these some of these concerns? How do we analyze and process them? Once everything is done and we know for sure that we're going with this one particular improvement, on a temporary basis, we're going to acquire some of the removable curbs, the rubberized curbs that can be bolt down. Those are really comparatively very cheap, don't need a lot of engineering and we can start implementing some of those. And as more and more neighborhoods or other streets come on board, we can either, when we're evaluating the effectiveness, if say six months down the line, they're really effective and now we want to go in a permanent phase, then we go to council for funding to put in something permanent. If you feel that, yeah, it has achieved what it was supposed to, we can remove that use in some other place. We are getting at least two or three different sets of things that we can implement on a temporary basis and start evaluating. So that's our first step. How do we do traffic calming currently? Currently? Is it similar to that or you just put it to pen? We don't have this in place yet, the process. So we are trying to get everything lined up. We're in the first two phases where we do a lot of education and enforcement and we are trying to get on the engineering side what can we do and how we can get everything addressed through engineering. So this is a new start for us and I think Patrice can mention that, but this is a new start and we're excited. All right, anybody else have any questions, comments? All right, excited to watch this move forward. We're excited for you. All right, that is going to bring us to item 1E, which is T SC 18-040, which is to receive a report, hold discussion regarding University of North Texas joint traffic study for proposed street closures within and around UNT campus. All right, next presentation. Okay, so this is a traffic study. Let me get back up a little bit. City of Denton staff started coordinating with UNT staff about a year, year and a half last May when we kicked off some of the meetings. And in that coordination effort, UNT had brought up some of their dream ideas, projects and stuff like that. UNT went through a big update in their master plan. They already have a campus master plan and then they also had a transportation master plan. Based on what was included in the transportation master plan, they wanted to look at options of how can we shut down some of the streets that go through the campus. And the two that were really identified and focused on were Avenue C between Eagle and Hickory, and then Highland between, I forget the limits, but Highland between Welch and I would say Avenue C, Welch and Avenue C. Those streets were identified. So we started talking as to what's the process, how do we make sure that we get there or at least understand what the implications would be to closing some of these streets. So we embarked on a joint study and looked at what are the impacts. Short term, immediately what happens. In long term, when most of the city would be built out and there's a lot more traffic in the area and the campus itself grows, what happens? So we looked at all those different scenarios and we identified what the impacts were, where they were, what the improvements are needed as part of this study. And then now the next step, I think we're wrapping up the study at this point. I want to go over how we did the study and what was ent ailed. And now we're at a point where once we've identified, then we go to the next step, identify funding. Who's going to fund what and the phasing. When do we really need some of these improvements to be in place? So an overview, what was the purpose of the project, the methodology that we followed, the actual analysis, what were the impacts, mitigations, and then the schedule. So the purpose of the project, as I mentioned, there was a campus master plan, UNT parking and transportation master plan. So we met with the UNT staff and we wanted to see how we could align their master plan with our future infrastructure needs. So what we did is we determined traffic condition on thoroughfare surrounding a campus, evaluated existing and future 2040 conditions, looked at feasibility of closing those two streets that I mentioned, and then what is needed for improving the public infrastructure in that area as a result of those closures. Project methodology, data collection is obviously the first step. We collected data at 50 intersections within and outside the campus. I'll pull up the actual map in a little bit. We looked at not only vehicles, but pedestrians and bicycles. And then we looked at 31 segments along the street, street segments. I think the map shows in the next slide. We did some traffic forecasting. What would happen by 2040 and what type of network we need, what type of transportation circulation demand do we have in this area. So we looked at existing 2017, no-build 2040, and then what happens if we close it in 2040. And then obviously I did the analysis, identified impacts and mitigation measures. So this is the project boundaries. These are the project boundaries. As some of you may recognize, these are the same boundaries for the Oak Gateway Small Area Plan. And this is sort of a joint effort. We are looking at traffic conditions while implementing the UNT master plan. And then this is going to help make some of the decisions for the Gateway Specific Plan. So here are the 50 or so intersections starting one all the way to 50 here. These intersections we looked at daily volume and decided that there's not that much traffic all the way going to Panhandle at some of these intersections. So they were not really considered part of this analysis because if you close Avenue C and Highland in this area, the impacts were not getting translated up here. So existing volume, these are the volumes we have. Some of them really high volume streets as Carol is close to 32,000, 33,000 daily trips. Bonnie Bray on the other side is close to 15,000 daily trips, 16 here, 14 something here. The axis is about 10,000 and then the real ones that you want to focus on are Avenue C, it has about 6,000 daily trips. Obviously when you shut this down, these trips are going to be displaced onto parallel streets. So that's one and then Highland is about 3,300 daily trips. So this is the existing conditions. The next step was looking at what is happening at the intersections. Usually as you may know if you travel this area on a daily basis, yes. Can you go back to the last slide? Yes. What are you getting on Stella? Stella is not, we did not count the ADTs on Stella as part of this study. But yeah, we don't have data on Stella at which intersection are you talking about, North Texas? Yeah, between North Texas and Bonnie Bray. Yeah we did not really collect data on Stella as part of this. The reason being I think Avenue C closure was impacting Bonnie Bray, not necessarily east-west traffic on Stella. So that was part of the assessment that our consultant made . There were some boundaries that they had to set and we could collect information on each and every street. But as part of the Bonnie Bray project, we are looking at every opening intersection on Bonnie Bray. So I can get you the data as part of that study. If you're just looking for existing volume. Just finish Hickory. Small thing, just finish Hickory. We're getting there. I'm looking at, when I'm looking at existing traffic volume , did you look at the North Texas plan for Light the Tower that they released this morning at 5 o'clock? I did not look at that. The build out for right across the highway. They're putting in, planning a baseball diamond indoor tennis. Yeah. Yes. And I'm looking at the little tiny roads over there. So we are looking at that. In our last UNT coordination meeting, they did release some of the information that was not public back then. It's now public. And we do have some ideas of how to deal with some of that and options. And we've started discussing those. What are the major streets? How they can come in and tie in and keep the traffic off of some of these smaller streets. So yeah, definitely Bonnie Bray in this area will soon be under construction. Impacts obviously, all the big intersection. Anything red, I like the red, green and yellow. Anything red has a delay of 55 seconds or more. If you approach that intersection, you're on an average sitting there for 55 seconds or more today. For example, if you're at Collins Street at Carroll, on both approaches you're sitting there on an average for 55 seconds. Similarly, at the intersection of Welch and Oak, this Welch approach is impacted with considerable delays. So these are the intersections that are impacted. Yellows are your at C and D level of service, which means you're anywhere between 20 seconds and 55 seconds at that intersection. And then A and B is less than 20 seconds average delay at intersection. So this is how the picture looks today. These are existing conditions, existing counts. What happens in 2025 if you go back and all the-- some of these yellows start turning red because of the growth in traffic. So North Texas intersections and then Bonnie Bray, Oak at North Texas, all of these start turning red. Some of the green ones start turning yellow in this area. So because of just the growth, you see that the impacts on these intersections, if we don't do anything today or if we don't have a plan, then this is what's going to happen. By 2040, a lot more red, a lot more yellow. So we're talking about congestion, delays. So that's the reason we conducted this study. How are we going to fix this? Fixing this is our ultimate goal. Majority of the times, intersections are choke points where you are traveling around the corridor, you arrive at the intersection and then you're stuck waiting for traffic and then traffic starts backing up. So that's why intersection is our major focus and delay at the intersection is the main concern. So these are the three scenarios we looked at and I know in the packet, I think they're really small but this one is the first scenario, Avenue C which carries about 6,000 daily trips. If we just close down Avenue C, it's going to impact 30 intersections. 30 out of the 50 that we looked at will be impacted. And then five roadway segments will have increased volumes. So these are the five roadway segments, obviously Oak and H ickory on the north, Eagle Drive on the south and then North Texas and Welch on the east and west. So these are the impacts associated with this closure. Scenario two, if you just shut down Highland Street between Avenue C and I think this is Avenue A, then the impact, you're going to reroute a little over 3,000 daily trips. That will impact 37 intersections out of the 50 that we looked at and then four roadways all next to Highland. It's going to impact Maple, Eagle, Welch and North Texas on either side. Oak closed together, we're talking about rerouting 10,000 daily trips, 40 intersections out of the 50 are impacted and then six roadways in and around this area. All of them pretty much covered by these two scenarios. So these are the scenarios that we looked at. Obviously we went with the worst case scenario which was scenario three. What happens if they really decide to follow their master plan and then move ahead with closing this? What are the impacts? I have a question about scenario three, the 9,000 plus existing daily trips rerouted. But mathematically that wouldn't be 9,000 people inconven ienced because let's say you have got one person who wants to drive down both Highland and Avenue C. So I think that number, when we put that number out there, I think it might be a little shocking. But if people think that through, it's not like 6,000 more people are going to be inconvenienced daily. It's fewer than that because many of those people would be traveling both routes. Correct. So we are presenting absolute worst case if everyone is independent of each other which may happen one of the days, once in a blue moon. But yes, you're right. A lot of people that are traveling on Avenue C may turn on Highland and then continue going east. And that's a possibility. So while looking at the impacts, we're definitely focusing on the worst case scenario. These are the intersections that were impacted and required mitigations. They're spread out and these are major intersections along Bonnie Bray, North Texas as suspected along Welch. I think Malone and Scripture, a lot of folks can relate to that one. That one's an always stop. So what would be the cost estimate to fix some of these intersections? And it's broken down into two aspects. One is due to the closure, which means purely shutting down those streets. What are the impacts versus other impacts meaning impacts related to the growth of traffic. Now growth of traffic is not necessarily completely based on UNTs growth. It is also based on the whole area growing and some of the through traffic, say for example along Bonnie Bray or Carroll, that will play a big part into it. So the cost for fixing impacts due to the closure is separated out. For example, if we go with, this should be scenario three, apologize. But if we go with this cost, 117,000 is strictly due to the closure, but the overall needs are 2.6. So that's where the city has to do a better plan or put a plan together to how do you address these impacts? When do you need to address them? What is the phasing for putting some of these improvements? It's a big number. So we need to plan it better. We need to focus our attention. On the city side, we've already started looking at Bonnie Bray corridor and how can we fix Bonnie Bray. We're also looking at this Welch. How can we better fix it, make it more conducive to bicycle pedestrian facilities? So we are working towards, yes sir. I don't see you factoring the extension of Panhandle over to the service road. Yes so as part of the traffic model that was looked at, it 's not shown in the map, but the traffic model did consider the circulation associated with that and that connection moving forward. So when this growth was calculated, we have a traffic model that looks at a future network. What are the possible streets that will come in? And yes, this is inbuilt in our master plan. So it is included in the model. It's just not in the map. Is it possible that over time? There might be an option for? Option for. At this time, UNT says that this is their master plan, that they only want to go with the closure of those two streets. At this point, they don't have any more options in there. And how are the costs split between the two? So the cost is split between the two based on if you just close the street and there is no growth in the area, then this is what UNT closures would require to fix, all these intersections. So that's the cost that was calculated. If the cost implications associated with the growth are much higher and we're planning some of it upfront. Yes. Stay close to Avenue C at Mulberry this weekend, to Hickory . I mean to Avenue C at Mulberry all the way to Hickory. Avenue C between Mulberry and Hickory? Yeah. Okay. Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question? What related to that? I was driving it this weekend for the game and when I go past the environmental services on Mulberry, you look to your left and the whole street's closed at Avenue C and it's closed to Mulberry. So I guess they're already starting or something else. No, it is something. It's probably a utility or street or drainage project or some of the closure associated with buildings around UNT. It's not related to anything. Oh, okay. This is, yeah, we're still further away. We're far from getting there. I think the next discussion that the city's going to probably have on these closures is what do we do with the utilities? What type of easements? What kind of access we have to the utilities that are currently under these streets? So that's the next discussion and then it's a process. We'll slowly get there. Yeah, so it said interested in closing. So is the thing is you'd like to get there but you're trying to figure out is this even possible? What happens if X, Y, and Z happens? Is there going to be too traffic and it just can't, too much traffic and it just can't happen? Is that where we're at? Correct. So this is a feasibility sort of study. Even if it's, we wanted to find out if it was feasible and now that we think, yeah, these costs don't look super high, it is a possibility then we go on to the next level, which is, okay, what are the things that are necessary and how do we fund it? In what fashion? How do we phase them? What year certain improvements go in? All that plan has to be put in place. So we're pretty much planning. We're in the first step of planning. So why do they want to close some of these particular streets? They just don't want traffic in there at all? They don't want the students have to deal with traffic? Yes. Ideally, their main master plan calls for this to be pedestrian walkways or pedestrian mall areas, if you may, where kids can or students can actually walk on the street and they're completely shut down to traffic. So that's what they want to create is more of a pedestrian campus experience. One more question. Do you know, have they talked to the students about this? I mean, has the student senate been approached? Do they have they taken it or is this the university like this is what we want? So as part of the transportation master plan and it's I think available online, there were extensive student surveys that they had conducted and based on that, this is the plan that they came up with. How would emergency vehicles be accessing kind of the inner campus? So yes, so that's part of our discussion that we're going to have. Do they completely shut down with blocking everything? Would there be gates? Would there be any emergency access provided? That's part of the bigger discussion that we're going to have. And if they're going to completely shut down, what are the cross street access that they can provide? So we're not there yet. We'll still try to figure out. The second one would be what about handicap access to the center? Because you're moving some streets and some parking further out and it's going to make it more difficult for some handicap access like a lot of programs at the music building. Yes now that's a good question. We are working with UNT so that's something that will be brought up in our discussion. If you're taking away these accesses, what happens to some of the parking spaces that wouldn't be at-- I mean you wouldn't be able to get to those parking spaces. Do they go away? What about the handicapped spaces that come with those parking spaces? Definitely that's a question that will be asked. Yeah, so people don't have to go several blocks to access, you know. Correct. I'll just add, I mean there's a lot of campuses that have interior closed streets. It's actually pretty common. UT is a good example and they do have access for cars to get on campus for emergencies and then also I think they do have spots where cars can pull in. So I think there's solutions to that. The question for me is if UNT's campus has the density in the spots they want to do it is my question because most campuses when they have those roads, it's like really dense all around and UT has so many parking lots in between but maybe they're planning buildings for those. I don't know. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of campuses are going that direction. They want their campus more of a walking, biking area as opposed to allowing vehicles to interact. I think along Avenue C at Chestnut and some of these intersections there's a lot of pedestrians crossing so to begin with today, vehicle through traffic is very restricted in certain hours. It's hard to cross that intersection sometimes. So they're trying to make sure that students don't have to interact with vehicles so that they're safer. That's their long-term goal. And there are already been some other places on campus where there must have at some point been a through street but they've closed them. So long ago we don't know but like right behind my building over off Hickory behind the auditorium building, there are a number of handicapped spots there. There's some motorcycle parking back there but the ingress at that point off Fry Street looks like at some point was a full-on street coming into campus but they just kind of blocked stuff off but they left all the parking. So a lot of the, even in the old part of campus, there's a lot of handicapped parking internally. So near the back doors but again, it's still accessible. And when they make these changes, they tend to make a lot of improvements to pedestrian towns which can be really helpful for handicapped bicycles, pedestrians. I know we relieve a lot of complaints of students and staff on Hick, on Island. Yes. If you do something to, sorry, go ahead. We got the other chairman here. How is this going to work with the smaller airplane, Fry Street, or Oakgate, right? Well, you know. Huh? Well, we talked about this last week and in some ways, you know, we're always going to, we have to work in conjunction obviously with UNT but at that point, we got the same presentation last Thursday as we got today. So the city and UNT are still, you know, doing, running numbers, doing preliminary considerations. You see any major, you see any major red flags? I don't. I think a couple people on the steering committee may have had some concerns but I don't think it's anything we can't work out. All right, so this is the schedule we've already talked about. We're wrapping the draft report so we are still reviewing it. We have not commented it. We're in this phase and we should be wrapping the study soon and then folding it into the Oakgate way, specific plan. Any more questions? I think we're, last slide. Okay. Anything else on this? Okay. That then brings us to 1F, TSC 18-041 which is staff reports including the matrix. Let me get this open here. Okay. There are several items that were added starting from item number 9 that were added in the last meeting. Can you put it up there? Yeah, actually. I don't have a copy. Okay. So there we are. There are several items that have been discussed. They're old, I think some of them are really tied with other, like this one, the small area plan. They're tied with some of the other projects and ongoing things within the community. Old North University, this issue has been resolved. The intersection, we've implemented northbound and south bound left turn lanes. So now there is a clear distinction when people approach in north and south direction that they're not confused whether someone's going through the intersection straight or making a left or making a right. So it is helping this intersection. We're still monitoring. We wrapped this up a couple weeks ago, I think. Old Alton, students walking without sidewalk. TechStat has, it is a current work zone along FM 2181 and TechStat through Denton ISD is working on creating a solution. I think this one, they're using a parking lot that is south of 2181 and students are parking there and actually crossing. So we worked with TechStat to put in a pedestrian signal at Old Alton so that kids can actually cross. There was no signal. They were unprotected. They could not cross. I think PD was helping us out when the signal didn't exist and now that the signal is there, they can actually push the button, get a pedestrian signal and go across. So that's something that we're, so slowly we're working through this list as things move forward. Mingo Road, this is ongoing. We're working with TWU, how we can better use their existing golf course. Pats, some of them are permanent concrete paths. How can we connect to those? So that would be something that would be an interim fix until we design and build Mingo with sidewalks. This is another short term. This is another project related to the small area plan, Fort Worth at Collins, left turns. So once that plan is implemented, we have an implementation . We looked at this intersection as part of our traffic impact study and I think one of the mitigations is to put those left turns onto Fort Worth Drive. So yes, at some point once we get the funding identified. So a lot of these are either on the way or on our list to be completed. We added a bunch more starting with item nine and yeah, we haven't really had a chance to look at it. I'd like to clarify that one. It really is not, it would benefit pedestrians, but I'm thinking more of motorists. Is there approaching South Hunterdale, is there approaching Mingo? If you're going to make a left turn, the way the, you've got the poles and then you got the fencing right there and the fencing angles and it's difficult to see oncoming traffic until you have to pull it way forward. So that would tie into our discussion at TWA. That could be folded. Just fold that one into that and take that one out. I think part of the discussion is to take that fence completely out so that it becomes an open area for public. There are some concerns by, safety concerns by PD there, but we're still working through that, but that fencing will be in that discussion. Yeah, I was just thinking fencing is a nice quick, easy thing that could be done as these others are being worked on. Okay. And then we are looking into that. I think I had a, stop signs are for yield for bicyclists. We had a discussion with our bike pet coordinator. He'll bring an item soon forward. So we'll see what are the options and explore the options or provide more information as part of a next agenda item. Yes. Can I, I don't know anything about that since I wasn't here last. What is that about? So this particular is, there is something called Idaho stop , which means in the state of Idaho, bicyclists can actually use a stop sign as a yield sign. So when they're approaching an intersection, they see that there's no one, they can go through the intersection by slowing down. Okay. Rest of the states don't have that. You have to have complete stop for bicycles. I thought there's no other states that have adopted it. I thought, I thought quite a few states have adopted it. I don't believe, but we'll look into that. That's exactly the information that our bike pet coordinator will bring forward. Cool. And would agendize that particular item. Temporary improvements to Hickory. Yes, we're working on the project. So you say temporary for temporary bike lanes. Okay. Any more, we can start writing them down. Yeah. So Melissa, this is a point where, you know, since the commission is also like the eyes on the street and you talk to people. So if you are running into yourself little places where you 're realizing pedestrian safety, bike safety, anything like that could be improved. You can bring that and put that on the matrix. If somebody talks to you and says, oh, I see this at this time of the day, you can bring that. A lot of these little things, you know, they are definitely more granular. Many staff isn't out there in the streets as much as we are . And so, well, sometimes they are. But a lot of these things are really super quick fixes. Some of them are paint and some signage and a lot of the, but you can bring things in and put them on the matrix. Well, I was going to say, can I, may I? So I talked to somebody tonight who is a teacher over at UN T. And his comment to me was that on Welch, and I had him, I had this with me. On Welch he says going, where is it? I have to find it now. So I guess it's Welch and over by the Union. When you, when you are going, that would be east and then, wait, is that right? Welch goes north-south. Okay, when you, there is a road that runs into Welch that goes east and west. When you go east on it to hit Welch and then you go up Wel ch, he says that there is, it's like three lanes and there is poor signage. And he's seen multiple times where people don't know which way they are going because the roads aren't marked well. There's not like a dotted line for the turn. And that was just tonight. He said he had did a whole presentation on it in front of the Student Senate. I can have him bring it. I can have him give it to me if I need, you know. Yeah, it would be helpful if we can provide more information on the exact location. And just bring it up next time. Yeah, that would be helpful. Okay, I can do that. Okay. Any more? I'd like to add, as I talked to you earlier, that I'd like us to look at maybe quarterly receive reports from the police department on accidents, pedestrian, motor vehicle, bicycle. So we can, there may not be anything we can do about them, but at least some education for us and maybe for the citizens. Okay. I know if there's any causes we can determine that there's anything we can impact, you know. We just need the data. We need the data to be able to do something. I would agree. I mean, I, as a, because I am a bike commuter, there are many times I see people do things and I'm like, why are you doing that? You're just making, you're going to get hurt. So I think, you know, how can we educate? Like if you know what's happening, then is there a way we can educate people? Okay. Anybody have anything else for the matrix? I do have one, and this maybe doesn't need to go. I don't know, just a quick question. So I was just thinking about those alleyways on, between Locust and Elm, you know, that have businesses along both Walnut and Mulberry. You guys are familiar, so Mulberry has several businesses on it, including what's the nice, there's a nice restaurant there that everybody goes to. It's right across from Mulberry Street Cantina. Oh, okay. That is Mulberry. So those two alleyways, one side, yeah, Hannah's. And so on one side you have a sidewalk, but it tends to, whenever I've walked through that area and gone through that area, people on the other side don't make their way over to the sidewalk and we kind of just have cars parking on the side. I wonder if there's just a temporary, an easy solution where we could make lines that created a sidewalk there. I don't know what it is. So it's mainly on the north side. I think the south side is fine. But people tend to just walk in the street and then cars are coming around. It's also next to a lot of bars. So there could be an easy solution. I don't know. It would be helpful if you send me a street view showing the parking area, because we received a similar complaint at the intersection of Elm and Mulberry on the south side of Mulberry. And there were parallel parked cars near this property, near this building that almost encroached into the sidewalk. And all we did is we definitely re-striped the sidewalk, delineated better, and then the cars were pushed out in the street. Well, on Mulberry, I mean on the north side, there's not a clear sidewalk anywhere. There's ramps coming out from several of the buildings. And then you just have cars and dumpsters taking up the rest of the space. So people just walk in the street pretty much whenever they 're going through. But it seems like there's room there. It just seems like when you clear a direction on where cars park. Like if we had a line for parallel parking, then maybe that space between would just be pedestrian. So I've got it up right now. I don't know if that's helpful. I could show you after. But I don't know what the actual answer is, because it's kind of a weird space. Yeah, well, we'll have to really take a look at it of what exactly we can do. We can't have a walking space within the parking and the actual street. So we'll have to see how we can-- OK, we got you. We can stripe it. We can make a better use of that area. At that corner, there is not a curb, is there? Is it still-- On the north side? On the south side of that intersection? Because that used to be an old Greyhound bus depot. Which building? On the other side? Yeah, on the south-- The Trophy Shop? Yeah, where the Trophy Shop. Yeah, so is there a curb that has been built there now? No, yeah, that's a whole weird corner, too. And obviously, because there's nothing there, people can also swoop around the corner into a little alley where people are walking. That is actually a very good point. So just clear-- just clarifying where people are supposed to be, there's no lines anywhere. Yeah, is that part of the MUSE project, then? Well, it is. Mulberry is not, so-- OK. Oh, OK. So we can look at specifically Mulberry and see. OK, great. What is the MUSE project? The city is looking at doing some traffic calming and some work on what used to be the alleyways behind Locust and Elm Street. So these are the streets we're talking about. Austin and then Walnut. I think they've worked on Cedar quite a bit. Cedar is completely updated, but we're looking-- focusing on these three streets as part of the MUSE. OK. OK, does anybody have anything else? All right. Do we have a motion to adjourn? I motion to re-adjourn. OK. Everyone in favor? Yes. Aye. OK, I agree. Unanimous. OK. Thank you all.