Oct 08, 2018 Historic Landmark Commission on 2018-10-08 5:30 PM

Order at 535 today, Monday October the 8th, 2018 for the Historic Landmark Commission. If everybody will please rise for the pledges of allegiance . I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible. Okay, we have a few items for consideration tonight. The first thing that we're going to consider is an appointment for a member of the Historic Landmark Commission for the vice chair position. With that gone, we need to fill that position. Do we have any nominations already? I would like to make a nomination of Helen Bailey for vice chair if she would be amiable to that. You would? I would be amenable to that, yes. Thank you Helen. Are there any other nominations that anybody would like to share? I guess I have Mary Anderson. I had a question. Just what? Mary Anderson, go ahead please. I'm sorry, I don't know if you can hear me because I can't hear myself. So I guess I was wondering what qualifications were for being on HLC and sort of since we're a historic commission, I just wondered how everybody fit in. So I'd you know since I there's so many new people here and I'm new, how everybody came to be in here. I mean I know where a few of you live right? A few of you live in the historic districts but not everybody. I don't know where everybody lives. I was just hoping somebody would enlighten me and whether or not that was related to the requirement for being an officer of that. Certainly we have certain you know obviously requirements but I think it'd be a good idea to just go around the dais and just you know have a quick introduction who you are and how you was selected and what your interests are as far as historic reservation. So excellent. We can start with John Morris and we'll work our way around to Roy. I was hoping to be last. Oh we can switch it. No no I'm kidding. I'll start and everybody else will be a lot better at the presentation. Thank you so much John. My name is John Morris. I live at 918 West Oak Street. I bought the property back in 2004 and I have lived there. We remodeled the interior, restored the outside and the property. I have been, I have a passion for 1900s type structures. My wife has been past chairman of this committee in years past. I've attended several of the meetings all the time. You have been before this board many times. Yeah and I take a great interest and pride in my city and in my county and in my country. So I look to have the best for all is my main purpose for this. What is the best for Denton in the historical section of Denton. Thank you so much for sharing John. Mary would you like to tell us why you're on this board? Yeah Mary Anderson I live at 924 West Oak and funny we are next-door neighbors and John's an excellent neighbor. We like this a lot. So we we came to Denton. My husband's at UNT. I'm at TWU but when we came to Denton we drove down Oak on the way to UNT and I went I gotta live here. It had houses with character and they weren't built like cookie cutters no offense but they didn't look like everything else and I thought I've gotta live here not to mention I don't like HOAs but you know one finally came available and we bought it and we've renovated inside the house quite considerably. I know what how they used to make lead pipes work. I was appointed by Don Duff yeah I mean how they they put the lead in the pipes. It's very interesting. So Don Duff appointed me on the committee. I have a great interest in making sure that we preserve the historical character of Denton and not turn it into developer haven for student apartments i.e. another name for single room occupancies and I'm not a big I'm not big on I don't care really what color you paint your house so much as long as it's just not really obscene. You know lime green may not work but it is your house you paid for it but I'd like to make sure that Denton historical area stays here because that's the charm if we've been to Grapevine if we've been to McKinney I think you'll see that the historic character is what drives the city going. Frisco is soulless McKinney's not and there's a reason for it. I'd like Denton to be that way also. Thank you so much Mary. Angie would you like to share with us? I'm Angie Stripling. I live at 1815 North Bell Avenue. We've been there about 10 years like everyone else. We've had renovations. I've been before this board several times. Never had an issue. I loved how it was how everything went smoothly but I have a passion for historic conservation and also for preservation and I think that history is very important. I think in a day and age of technology where even children and students have their heads down a lot there is a lot of beauty and architecture that we have and I really have an interest in all of that and preserving it. I'm kind of like Mary about when it comes to paints and those kinds of things but keeping character of what people thought of in the history and why that character is there is a passion for me. So when we renovated our own home I tried to keep the character of the home alive with the history behind it and so that's why I'm on the board. Excellent. Thank you so much for sharing. Since I'm next in line I'll go. I'm Alyssa Stevenson. I'm a 14 year Denton resident as of this last year and I live downtown in one of the historic buildings on the square and I love it. I have helped renovate parts of the interior. I have a desire well I have a passion for history. It's actually what I teach. I'm a seventh grade Texas history teacher and before that I actually worked in construction and so that's when I was appointed to this board and I was appointed by Kevin Roden many years ago. So I love the unique character of Denton and want to continue to see it carry on that direction. Helen would you like to share with us? I'm Helen Bailey. I am an architect by trade. I am the campus architect for the University of North Texas and I was appointed to the commission by Dalton Gregory two years ago now. He primarily came to me because he knew I was an architect and the board actually is there's two positions that are named on the board that should be represented. One is architect the other is lawyer. So I filled a need there. I have a passion for historic preservation. I always have my whole career and I apply that on a daily basis with my work at the University of North Texas which you know also has a lot of historic structures within it and preserving the history of the University of North Texas and Denton as well is kind of a life's work for me and so that's basically why I'm here. No I don't live in an historic home . No I don't live in any of the historic districts but it won't be many years before my house is actually you know qualified. So I think it's about 30 years old. I live in Southridge but anyway that is why I'm here. I've lived in Denton since 2001. Excellent. I'm Kenneth William son. I was appointed to the board two three years ago. Greg Johnson appointed me. I want to get involved in the city of Denton. It's my home and I want it to be part of it and I didn't just come up and say I want to be part of the historical zoning commission. There was a need for some construction like minded people on the board and they asked me and I've always loved history. I love the history of buildings. I love watching the history of construction evolve and I think my biggest thing is I do want to keep Denton true and keep the intent of the structures where they're at but also make sure that make sure that we're not doing something that is out of line or is costing more or doing something that's not feasible as well. So I think that's my biggest thing and why I'm here. Thank you so much Kenneth. Roy. Roy Anderson. I'm a CPA. I've had a practice with several accountants and then for about 33 years. We have the building right across the street 222 East McKinney and we've owned it for quite some time. I went to grade school at the old Robert E. Lee right off the square. It's now behind the Methodist Church in the 60s and went to North Texas University of North Texas. My wife's granddad was a founding dean of the College of Business. He has a building name. My dad taught there for years. I was appointed a couple years ago by John Ryan I believe. My interest I'm fascinated by history. I read a lot study and I read old historical cars and I you know my whole thing about Denton is growing so much that we have to try and find a way to say what Denton has been and it isn't the Denton of the 60s. It's actually much better now and with the historic things and the focus and it's a unique place to live and of my 50 some odd years I've probably been here 50 of those . I don't know a long time. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much Roy. I appreciate it. Okay so Mary you did ask the question what were the requirements for vice chair is that correct? Or any just any you know of all of them it was just one of those. Can I ask one I was just going to ask is Jerry really a member of the committee? I are you because they said something about a lawyer that's why I just wanted to know. I believe Miss Clegg is the lawyer. She's the law representative. But no I'm just a staff liaison you know to the extent that I give legal support and I guess as long as I'm talking in here I have the the section pulled up that defines the membership of the historic landmark commission. It's a nine-member board appointed by the city council. It has to have at least one representative from each of the following organizations or professions. The county historical commission, county bar association, certified public accountant, registered architect, and an owner of real property in the city. And so you could have other citizens in there as well and then it provides for some ex officio members that don't vote which I think are basically the staff members. But at any rate I hopefully that will be of help you know I guess in my role working with sort of the parliamentary issues we do have a a motion that's on the floor but has not yet been seconded or voted upon. So there is a call for nominations and and just so that we could know where we are and stay on track that's where we are. John. In that effort I would second the nomination for the vice chair and ask that the list of potentials be closed. Okay you can do that. So John seconded the motion for Helen Bailey as vice chair. All those in favor say aye. Aye. All those opposed say nay. Excellent. So the motion is approved. None deny. Let's go ahead. So if we're on the next item. So you got seven just in terms of filling this in looks like you have seven ayes no nays and at least one that's absent. Two. Okay. Okay all right so our next item for consideration is actually considering approval for the September 10th meeting minutes. However it is my understanding that we actually have to have five members present who were there and we do not have that tonight so I'm going to move that we postpone those for the next meeting. That's interesting. Second that. Thank you so much Roy for your second. Is there any question about that? All in favor please say aye. Aye. Great all in favor seven none. No all those opposed say nay . Great none denied. Our next item for consideration is item c to receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding an amendment to a certificate of appropriateness to follow for the continuance of an existing neural around to the front side of the building located at 122 North Locust also known as Andes. Thank you so much Roman. Thank you thank you all and after y'all going around that table I just want to say I'm really honored and humbled to be with such great people. So the uh this item oh and I also want to say with respect to the landmark we're working on the packets a new packet for everybody give them an update on what the rules are and all that. We got hung up on if you've ever looked at our list of historic landmarks it's really out of order and there's some blanks in there we're trying to figure that out and get it nice and clean is where we are today on that. So this uh you saw this permit back in November of 2017 the applicant Eric Pulido a six-year term uh six six year term remember two or three terms of two I think he served on here and he asked for that and y'all approved it and and it's been up there for a while um so it also with that permit came some some rehabilitation work here restoration work on these door panels here uh changing that steel panel out and some other things and they're going to start on that today but probably Wednesday now and of course the weather is going to need to cooperate so that's forthcoming. A little bit of background this came up there was a big discussion in the office uh if we had had our ordinance revisions through already that are waiting to get through the Denton development code review process um quite frankly this might have been approved by me this this amendment I just letting you know that but it's still required to be approved by our department and so we discussed it in the department and we're bringing it to you to see it again before we allow these changes since you saw the application originally that raised the question of why is Andes which is uh right here a historic landmark well I'll show you very quickly why that's the block in 18 85 and here's the headline of the Topeka Kansas newspaper or an article in the paper about a fire on July 16th in 1890 and you see there that it says that the uh the wind was favorable towards the fire it was it was but a few minutes till it had developed into a raging conflagration and every building on the east side of the square numbering some six or seven were destroyed and the cause of the fire is unknown and there's the damage well the Andes was the only masonry building on the block at the time and so it survived uh it also and it even got picked up in the Atlantic Atlantic Constitution which I think they took the story from New Orleans because that's right out of their page so it was big news with big fire and so then when they came back in 1891 to do the sandborns you see the block is completely cleared they just they there was such a clear spot on the map they just dropped the key to the map into that space there and um so that's why the building matters and then um later on there was you know renovation work you've seen these pictures just quick refresher um what's neat about the building to me one of these things it's one of the only buildings on the on the square with a complete set of iron columns I think the scripture building is maybe the only other one and then there's one or two columns scattered around um the square and there's another picture when it was a movie theater there on the right so it's missing the tabl ature here and then these um these little coffers are in here are not presently they must have been filled in what these little curves this will inlet inset around the windows is still there this is the building in I think the 70s it was a law firm so then you see those coffers already filled in at the top and then tablature is gone and then just a little note about painted brick you know if we had stopped in again this is the 70s the back building was unpainted at the time so this is on east oak here and then that back street and also the roof the windows and the roof had you got a gabled roof there so this is before the applicant began to clean it up it also had a kind of a sign tacked on up there that he removed that and he painted that whole storefront as part of that first permit and now what happened is the applicant as he'll tell you he had a big machine rented with no with no one asking they've been repainting all of the windows on the barley and board the texas bank building diagonally across the street they rented an expensive equipment to do that work and eric asked me about painting the front of the building and we told we won't make it to the landmark committee until the eighth first we discussed whether we could get it approved and the staff wanted to have it come before y'all and so we did um we're bringing it here now but in the meantime he was worried about having to re-rent that machine and he's and he had this work done so the image you see on the right is the building today okay but uh you know then he's been completely upfront about the process and so he'll talk to you more he's going to tell you what's going on in fact i've got him up next as a presentation from from eric palito unless you have any questions of me i have no questions does anybody else have questions for roman so just so i'm clear the pictures i'm sorry oh no i just need to make sure i need thank you kenneth uh the picture in the middle or the picture on the right is as it is today the one on the right this is today this is today i was done when they worked on it just this weekend this weekend before this is right before that and this is before that mural and any uh paint work so in other words it looked like this on both sides kind of a dirty old you know down that side and so they did that mural and also repainted all that work and then that's where we are today angie yes hey roman so you said that if you had you would have approved it or you could have approved it if we already had something in place so the historic preservation ordinances that we met in your neighborhood with and we talked about all around the city in there we uh we're adjusting sort of administrative approvals in there we talk about paint uh and some things in there so i believe if if you were looking at painting on a for a certificate of appropriateness it could be approved by the preservation officer i believe that's why it's word under the uh what's forth coming on the so my question on that is paint versus a mural that's a good question is there a difference differentiator between the two um reading in that because i would like to see that as well we we'll have an opportunity and a big opportunity we'll have another commute round of community meetings before the dentin development code is passed it will it will and it'll go before planning and zoning it and it'll come here and city council again so we can adjust that in my mind for me it's still paint for me i know i may not you all may not agree with me but as a president in my world i've seen too many buildings that are decaying because they have no paint and for me it's no paint or paint once we get to paint i don't personally feel that's significant but believe me we're counting on y'all to make a decision that you feel appropriate for this amendment i'd like further discussion on that one that comes up oh sure okay anybody else have questions for roman okay well i kind of have a question and it's still a procedural question to tag on to angie what authority do we have on the square since the ordinance hasn't this i this building is a designated local landmark so unlike the square being a national registered district that it's not wholly protected loophole and this building and a few others a piece of another building near on the scripture the scripture but about four right okay thanks for the that's why you're seeing it thanks for the clarification building any other questions for roman before eric comes up okay eric if you'd like to join us come on over you know the drill yes greetings my name is eric palito uh 1209 piping rock dead in texas um i appreciate you guys having me and i don't want to be superfluous a lot of this uh is a uh slideshow that was seen when we originally did the work um but i'll just go over it just to catch you guys up and then uh go through some of the things that roman was speaking of and obviously helping myself for any questions that you guys might have so the building was built in 1877 um was built by bf pascal um i'm not sure if you're aware but the upstairs floor is a cocktail bar called pascal bar which uh me and my bandmate started about seven years ago and we named it after him because no matter what the building was through time it was always referred to as the pascal building and it lost that somewhere along the way so we just wanted to pay homage uh to that um like roman said not only just my time serving on this committee i appreciate uh history and just feel like it gives an identity to a place when you're able to to tell a story so we actually have um a picture of the all the folks that uh helped build some of the buildings on the square as well as a cool piece out of um business gazette uh uh with an ad for uh the rs ross grocer when you walk into pascal um we also have a big uh picture of the square back in the late 1800s that up there in the right is that uh ad that i was referring to obviously some of these pictures you saw in roman's uh piece but i just love looking back at at the different forms that the building has taken on over time we actually considered uh recalling it plaza the plaza as well um but we didn't have not yet um as roman said those columns it was really neat to uh to see these pictures and uh obviously see that they're still there and a part of the first coa was to uh to renovate uh that front like roman said wed nesday the actual wood facade and doors will be done but uh the the columns were changed from a a green that we didn't really love to to uh to black um and we also did change out the awning to to put a new one on there as well um obviously there's a great marriage of of history and art uh through time especially uh how that comes to fruition and buildings um originally uh with the the new deal back in 34 they they put in a portion um of the the uh the budget to uh include uh art um and i thought that was a really neat uh aspect to have obviously we have art and arts program that started several years back and i know that's been a big piece of our development especially in downtown um i believe that it really does promote interaction and civic participation um we've had a lot of folks use it as a background to a photo um which has been really neat i mean i love just seeing people now look at it as something that they want to be a part of um it wasn't the prettiest side of the building before and when we did those renovations there were a lot of cracks also that the that we had to to patch up and then obviously put the paint over it um we have events all the time that include um all ages and it's really neat to to see the kids um come out and be a part of you know the offerings of the of the building obviously it's uh mainly known as a bar or venue but we do daytime brunches and such all the time we have a a christmas show with kids that we're doing in a couple months and also as a town that really prides itself in its art program you know artists can see uh this being utilized um in a downtown area we're not the only building that has done something like this so it's really cool to see um i don't have to tell you this but you know when you're downtown you know where you are and i just love that um further with distinctions um that are in line can really create identity to a place and i i love that that we've continued to do that uh downtown with new businesses and just events and such um also the sustainability and preservation um you know i kind of think that it really sends a message you know when you put value in the building that you're a part of um it says something but it also i think keeps people aware that this is something that we want to keep clean we want to keep it in line we want to preserve it and sustain it for generations to come this is just a quick example of some murals around the world of large format type murals um i can't remember exactly where i got all these i think one was in new york another in spain uh but uh but yeah all different styles and such uh but i'm sure the uh the same outcome is is achieved this at the time were a couple uh murals that had been done in town that were specifically with a historic building or a historic site um the one to the left is uh the paterson apatown art center um and that was two different times that they did the mural i served when they did one of them and then of course um across the street at the fire department um they had uh had that uh monolithic um feature um honoring uh 9/11 again this this most of this work has been done or is comm encing now but was approved unanimously at the time um with the mural um and obviously the doors and the veneer and the awning um and some painting window trims uh and obviously that was the picture uh that we showed at the time of the mock-up i think he did a pretty good job keeping it in line with what the mock-up was uh the artist's name he's not here he was here last time um and i i asked him if he wanted to come back and he was pretty nervous the first time so he just asked if i could handle it um but his name's dan black you might have met him he's he's definitely been uh around a bunch more regularly as uh folks have seen his work and um have have used it for their for their building or or um whatever piece that they're looking to to bring some life to and he does that quite well um i know he's done some pieces at the mall uh most recently so this is actually a mock-up and then the next one i'll show you uh one that you actually saw with with uh romans and the reason why with this is obviously um on this painting it wraps around and you don't really see it from the ground level uh that well the the one inset to the right is kind of uh what what you can see um when you're down on the ground but the artist really wanted to and i and i appreciated it to even if you don't see it um to keep the the canvas uh continuing or the art piece continuing and if you did see it whether you're flying over if you're in the top of the courthouse you might find um a reveal that's that's really neat uh to see only from certain uh heights in the downtown area um i'm not sure if if i had mentioned um i'm sure i did originally but the mural is called band on the run uh you saw the two uh folks on the motorcycle it's uh it's kind of in a 50s western um styling uh with the colors that were used if you go to the back um you see a police officer with binoculars looking at the couple riding off in the desert and they're now working their way to their getaway plane which is located on the south side uh as roman showed as well this is the the uh mural uh as it sits today um a little bit of backstory and i know roman uh alluded to this um originally when we thought about doing this between myself and the artist uh and the building owner um we of course knew that we needed to contact roman and figure out uh if that could be administratively proven being i guess an optimist that i am i i thought that would be the case but we didn't do any work until i had spoken with him um we had rented this lift for barley and board because we had done the work on the texas building and i talked to the contractor that did that work and just asked on pricing and if when he planned on finishing that job and i thought i could kill two birds with one stone because he finished that project and was going to have a few more days until it was scheduled to be picked up lift um so we kind of put it tentatively on the calendar and said okay this is when we would do it and let me go talk to roman also got the artist who does travel himself and scheduled him down and got it penciled in and said okay we've got everything set you know i didn't want to spend the extra money you know i think around 1500 obviously they have to deliver that that piece and it also takes up a big chunk of the square and as you guys probably have seen with construction such i kind of wanted to be able to do the work and get it out of there as soon as possible so roman got back with me and said okay we probably need to sit down and talk i'm not sure if this is going to be able to be administratively proven let's go talk to staff we did and i said i totally understand i do not mean any disrespect by commencing work or planning to do this work without it and then obviously commencing it um if this isn't a proven if i've exhausted all options of course i would paint back over it and go back to the original that was a proven if that's what we needed to do it was kind of a risk i understand you know that but i didn't want it to be any sign of disrespect to the board or staff for that matter so we did paint the front originally with the original coa it was just obviously a blank canvas if you will and between the artists and myself we kind of felt like it looked that way it just looked like it wasn't complete obviously anybody could think differently and i respect that and appreciate that it's just something that we continue to look at and look at and we thought you know it would really be neat to to continue that on so again i don't want to beat a dead horse but that that is why we did it and the heart of it and why we're coming before you today thank you so much eric does anybody have questions for eric angie i do is the mural on the south side today as well for the airplane wise yes that's already done yes that part of it even though he did use the lift because there is roof access it was able to still do some without the lift and i don't know if the artist is like completely done with any like paneling on the back side i honestly i can't see it over there from the street so i would have to get up there myself so um i know he's done with the lift but i he might have a little bit of like work on that plane to just you know and was that approved part of the original project no sorry both the south side and the west side were not a part of the original so neither the front on facing the square or the side so they was south is facing so the east side and the north side the main mural portion was a part of the original coa so i'm coming back now with this front facade and this side facade yes okay that plane that you saw let me go back so it's the front and the side that's what i'm and that's a clarification sorry okay so you're asking for approval for this and the front correct what you see in this painting or this yet rendering so the back isn't done i thought you haven't seen it i never go down that street the back wasn't it was part of the original approved in the original um and we decided to continue it around to wrap it around and and this is that portion that i'm coming before you today roy i have a question so at this point you're here for a co a but 95 percent of what you're asking permission to do is already done right that is correct i'm not sure the exact percentage but this is just a continuation in addition to what was already proven okay thank you i guess what i'm saying is you're asking now for permission that's kind of like we're going to confession here so we're gonna ask for we're asking for forgiveness because we've done no he he had already put in the the coa for it for the front mural for painting now but for mural i don't think i think there that's what i think you know for yes he had already submitted the coa and um we didn't get it on to the agenda in time and they had already scheduled the lift so eric real i mean eric has always come before the board in a very timely manner i really feel like this is just a timing issue where the lift was available he thought that it would have gone before the board before then this is not yeah this is not like a slap on the hand no it kind of that's not quite what i heard your story say i'm sorry but i think i was listening when he said that you came up with this with the artist it did go in motion quickly and this and this is a retroactive aspect i appreciate everything you've done for andy's bar i 'm just saying that this board has gotten out of hand and you know forgiveness is always what we get after people do what they want anyway this is nothing personal i mean i think you've done a beautiful job on the side and things it's it's the un the unpermitted stuff that i think we ought to handle a little a little better angie what was the date of the application for the coa should be in rebecca it's hard to see on the phone it was in between it was soon after our last meeting so that's why we we could have called a special meeting for but i didn't think that would make a lot of sense let's see um your packets are on there there while they can go online we got it right here you can see the date yeah i don't see it was in september at some point here okay so it was probably so it was recently just wasn't about three i'm guessing i'm gonna pull it up so it didn't miss a meeting that i guess my question is what was the date so okay it was after if we had squeezed if we could have squeezed it in helen do you have a question while we're looking yes uh so i think i heard you say eric that um you know knowing this is retroactive if indeed it was the um the the final vote from from this board that it was not approved you you can um you can find the resources to to take it back the way it was of course i mean that that would be our responsibility um given the situation uh obviously we would rerent the the lift and paint it back to the color that was approved um if we had to thanks for the clarification thank you mary well my question is if that's the case anyway you were saving fifteen hundred dollars to do it at the same time that's at least what you said earlier in this testimony that it was fifteen hundred dollars so it's going to cost it would cost you more than fifteen hundred dollars to change it just just saying just want to clarify what i've heard so far yeah it it would obviously like i said it was a risk so i would lose that lose more because of this and the time required and to have a lift out on the square again for for a given amount of time so just a quick answer i don 't think i have the the original application in here but it um i mean i can look on my phone because i sent you i sent it to you somehow but it was in between i think we had just had whatever the previous meeting was so okay it was either hold a special meeting or or prove it or bring it here so we brought it i mean i mean a special meeting i don't think that i mean what qualifies for a special meeting i mean my time is also valuable and fifteen hundred dollars was more valuable than that for it to call a special meeting for so wait a minute there's something wrong with this john madam chairman um i was here and approved part of the group that approved the painting that originally was put onto the building uh that was well received by everybody there and i can not check the minutes but i presume presume it was a 100 approval i believe it was basically basically as i see it we have here a case of it probably would have been approved it brought in time to do it right we have an option we have a situation here where the equipment is available the artist is here uh to replace all that again would be 1500 roughly plus the artist and the travel and the time and all that so you're talking so and we're talking here about a few days that we didn't get here for a time deadline that is there i think we're quivering over dots are we at the discussion portion of this meeting now yeah i mean we don't have a motion on the floor so but we are still at the asking questions of kenneth yes why didn't you go in back in november for all of it was it just after you yeah it really was after we had had seen it um i wish we would have uh obviously i think it it finishes the the vision and the piece as a true uh art piece of the whole building and it felt incomplete at the time with just the mock-up um we didn't think that and i i think we were wrong at the time so it's really interesting mary i mean i love the mural on the side i really do i think it's fabulous for being on the square i'm not sure i like the rest of it i mean as far as historical character and i think that's where my one you're getting you're looking for forgiveness after having done something um but two it really changes the character i think that's what what i'm addressing here is it's something that the board should have decided what the character of the square should look like and how historical is something there i mean that's my major concern it has no timing is another i have a pet peeve about the forgiveness i can get past that but it's the it's the content of what the square looks like none of the pictures you have showed me roman up here look anything like that and so i realize it's a great art piece and i love the side i see it almost every day i think it's so cool but that the appropriateness of this on the square jerry if if i could just redirect this for a moment and roman i'm going to need your help on this because i i didn't bring my code book with me and i've been trying to look it up online and it's uh my battery is just about dead but you know i'm hearing you know a lot of opinions about what looks nice what's cool what uh how popular it was what was originally voted on you know and a lot of things that i think miss anderson brought up an interesting point is that this board has a specific charge with respect to certificates of appropriateness it's not you know matters of taste it's not matters of timing it's not matters of any of those things it's it's it's a standard of appropriateness and you know i think that maybe we need to reconsider and just as you maybe you had up there to reiterate what exactly is the charge of this board to make this determination you know rather than a an issue of taste or what you should have done or shouldn't have done or anything else what is the standard well i agree robert roy madam chair i move we approve hlc 18-022 weren't you going to get into what the considerations are i 'm waiting for the discussion because we're now we're talking to eric in a minute right start the discussion we haven't closed some definite things to say but i'm waiting for that roy we haven't actually closed the this portion of the so what are we doing all right now we'll draw that um motion thank you roy okay okay no no no we're still on the open portion of the middle okay well i'm sorry jerry asked me well you know we're asking for a certificate of appropri ateness it's not an historic district international registered district right which you could apply the standards to uh however we don't have a law that requires us to apply the standards for our national registered district so often and this can come up with julie glover with the main street program when she looks at issuing grants for some of the facade improvements that happen on the square she goes to this document and which was in your uh packet last time and it's these property appearance guidelines adopted in 1997 by the city of den to be used for the approval of renovations and new construction in the downtown area uh the so in there um you have the this little descriptive which i put in that previous in in 2017 but we had the whole packet in there in 2017 i can probably pull that up with you but the key phrasing for me then at the time was that the renovation of historic advertising painted directly on building surfaces is encouraged along with the creation of large-scale murals as a form of public art and then all wall signs and murals should be professionally applied or restored that seemed to be the only on point um part of that property appearance guidelines adopted for the city of downtown for the downtown i mean city of denton for the downtown core area so there's no overarching historical component of murals as far as what's approved from a historic standpoint or from an art standpoint i have never seen any documentation about you know what murals would be appropriate and norware mary yeah so you said we're part of the federal the national registry and so what are i mean since eventually we hope to be even further what are their guidelines i mean i i think we should at least listen to their guidelines the secretary of interior standard guidelines regarding paint are very open yeah the standards would as far as i know don't address murals so that's it earlier we talked about we talked about the murals exactly yeah um the standards about the saving so you know helen i i would submit to you that paint can change the historic cat uh character of a building and if there is no if there is precedence from an historical standpoint then then the paint issue would be part of that and i think if you were to take your document you were just looking at and you move move further down on it where it talks about if it's denied it has to be denied for these reasons you would find in there that it states um you know is it going to detract from the historical significance that kind of thing those are the kind of things think we can look at and it doesn't matter whether it's paint or trim or you know brick or anything it's about preserving history and and so i don't know that it matters so much what it says about paint specifically that would be my comment there right i think and that there is that in in other places in the ordinance i think it's usually in the districts where it says a certificate of a purpose this is in our ordinance um should be approved if it negatively or adversely affects right um buildings building buildings in the area which is a it's objective it's very subjective i don't know well that's why we're nine people not one right any more questions for roman and eric okay eric thank you so much for your presentation and for your time tonight i know that it's been a a busy weekend so all right is there anybody else from the public who would like to speak on this item seeing none we're going to go ahead and close that okay in order to discuss we must have a motion on the board is that correct uh there are boards that do have discussion without putting a motion on the floor first okay would y'all like to have a discussion first yes okay it sounds like there's a lot to work out helen okay um so i i have to say that if you take into context the square as a whole and all of the frontage onto the square you will not find murals on any of the buildings in on that face you certainly find them on the side street faces right all around the square and even in in side streets off the square a couple of blocks right find it it seems appropriate in those places because they tend to be sort of more alleyway aesthetic it was the side of the building there was always this idea maybe that there would be another building added on to it and it kind of had that sort of unappreciated aspect to it that the murals of denton have really brought life to those areas and made them into uh almost almost like destinations of their own for sure i think it's appropriate there i i have to say it gives me great pause to put it on the front of one of the buildings that faces the um courthouse it it just doesn't uh it doesn't seem to ring true to everything else we've got going on on that square signage i've we've got plenty of signs some of which these days are getting quite colorful and we've talked about those at other meetings and and and i think there's that i think there's some precedence there because of the campus theater and the other things that were there you know 50 plus years ago i don't i don't somebody tell me i'm wrong but i don't recall any murals being on any buildings and so it gives me some building fronts building fronts facades building facades facing the courthouse that's what i'm talking about specifically i don't see that from any recollection i have um i think that we have to tread lightly on our history we've lost some of our history already on the square um within this year and um and it happens to be right down the street from this and and i and i don't think that we should detract from the history we still have and so it feels to me just the front the rest of it i don't think is is detracting but just that very front facing the courthouse um i think we should tread lightly on it and keep it as original as possible and by doing so i think having a sky scene across it detracts from that history and that's my that's me i'm off okay angie um i agree with you and i also think that the the front of the buildings that when we talk about restoring we want to look at restoring back to original as close as we can get and i do think that is distracting for the character of the building as far as falling in line with downtown my second point with that too is um talk about getting a coa in september and i want to address that for a moment because um i don't want to set a precedence for this board that it's okay to get a coa waiting for a board approval and so i'm going to go ahead and do it and i think that could set a precedence for other people coming before this board um i had been i've had to wait myself two to three months because of not having board meetings i'm not having a quorum and so for someone coming before the board previously and knowing the schedule um i know it wasn't done in disrespect but i do think that's something that has to be addressed that doesn't really set well with me because of knowing the board and knowing how the board operates and because i've also had to be before this board for people that have flat taken advantage of it and i just hate to see it go down that road again but to talk about exactly what is before us that it was done without an approval and that what is being asked to be done i do not think that it fits in the historical character of that building okay mary i have to agree uh with ellen and angie i think that it's great to have murals all around town i mean if you look at decatur they have these great murals but they're not on the front of the building they're on the side of the building there are these great tiles and level land but they're on the side of the building they're not on the front the character of the square matters i love this picture right here and i don't even mind the side that you can only see probably from the hamburger place i can't think of the name lsa thanks l sa burgers right i don't that doesn't bother me but this bothers me things you can see straight away it changes the character i think of the square and yes i do have a i have a pet peeve of seeking forgiveness but that's not coloring my vision of what i see here what i see here doesn't fit the square the the other picture of it and you know if we're here i mean we can't make things original to the 1800s but we can kind of keep it in a historic sense you know it's not like i should have to keep my lead pipes in my house but this is aesthetic it's not you know health wise to do so and i love the side i see it all the time and i think it's great i just don't know that it fits on the front i might add one more comment helen yes you may uh and that is we we might set a precedent if we do move forward with uh having a mural on the front of this building i think if we had this replicated around the square it would certainly start to really detract and once you've done it once yeah maybe it'd be easier to say yeah we can do it so just one more comment okay kenneth um i agree with everybody i love the mural the side of it i think it fits in really really nice but it looks too in my opinion almost cartoonishy on the front of the building and it takes away from the presence of the square um i'm just going to add my own two cents i love it i do i i mean i live right next to it i love it i see it every day i watched it go up i was surprised to see it go up when it did because i had just spread through my agenda but um i i love it i love the continuation of the art project and when i look at the um the guidelines for downtown where it talks about um all you know wall signs and murals one of the things it says is the renovation of historic advertising is encouraged you know that along with creation of large- scale murals as a form of public art and i i love seeing public art in denton it's one of the things that i think makes this really unique and while i i don't love that i did watch it go up this weekend when i knew it was on my agenda for tonight i did understand because i i knew that the rent the the lift had been rented out and as frustrating as that can be and i don't want to set a precedent for the do it and then the hand slap or the asking for forgiveness after absolutely not and and we've really fought against a lot of that in the last several years on this board um i think that paint doesn't change a structure and we have some pretty out there paint on the the square and i might be the only person who who has this opinion on this board but i kind of love it on the front i love that it's a full wrap around it's an art piece and i think it also brings back um i think it highlights preservation in a lot of ways so but that's my two cents and we don't all have to agree and that's why there's a board roy and john do you have anything that you would like to add or any anything that you'd like to say while we're still in this discussion well john i'm trying to digest everything it was said here take your time i'm i'm torn because i have a very strong belief that what is yours is yours and you should be able to do what you want with it i have a very strong belief of that i also realize there are rules and regulations and i can see the point of view that it could be a bad thing but i don't know what other word terminology do distraction destroying historical looks and so forth like i understand all that so i'm torn between those two uh i i really wish that we were able to have all these discussion before that paint was put on that building i agree that bothers me tremendously unfortunately that's just not where unfortunately we don't have that uh i do not like to see a property owner or not property owner this investing money to do uh improve the square we're all agreeing that side is very nice we probably have the same opinion on the other side and on the back um so but i also realize that while this looks really nice what do we do with the next building that comes in and puts a mural on the front side with mickey mouse on i don't know what disney would make you take it down that's what i'm that's the turmoil i have right now i understand you know i mean i i look at this and and i do you know i'm not into exceptions i really believe that things belong in ordinances and to have strong ordinances however there's not anything in place that says that we can't and again if we're looking at added as a large art as a large scale art piece which there aren't very many buildings that could do this on all four sides um i think it's you know an ode to the time that we're in as well a lot of what we see on the square um hearkens back to the many changes that have evolved over time and i think one of the things that they've done here is that they've made a change and it it is a part of our current evolution but it's non-permanent you know it can be painted over and so i think it's a it's a tough decision that we've got before us tonight roy do you have anything to add just a couple things first of all john and i share a strong belief that people that own the property should have to say so i i bristle a bit because i don't think it's in i remit whether i like it or not i mean we should follow our guidelines right um i'm a little steamed that they got the cart ahead of the horse but and then my personal belief is once you paint the bricks i don't care if you make it i'd rather have the normal bricks i'm a big fan of that but i'm not sure that's i remit either that's it thank you okay can i have something just looking at the downtown property appearance guidelines when it comes under color on section on page 34 it says traditional or light or muted colors with pastel or earth tone hues are generally preferred the use of very bright fluorescence or day glow colors is discouraged i saw that but it's right next to the opera house so i don't know that that has been followed for a long time and if you look at lsa it's got some pretty bright colors happening on it the opera house though was pastel which he said was approved was it not was that a suggested pastel that hue of purple is pastel to me it is you haven't seen purple have you haven't seen the purple hat ladies running around um but again thank you for pointing that out andy i think that we have to look at what this board is for and it's for the historic preservation conservation and for i i go back to if we're going to restore to make it look like it did then it doesn't have anything to do with likes or dislikes and if you like it or not and i'm going to tell you i'm my husband is has an artist has a master's in art we do art photography and we have used this side of the building for our art photography so i love art i'm not against that at all but i also believe there's times that you put too much art and it takes away from this and i do believe in this situation it takes away from the character of the building and i also believe it takes away from the mural on the other side that we all like um so that's that 's my breast of my two cents okay john you had a clarification well okay i just want to clarify for me there is no regulation on our in the city here that the front of the building can be painted that says that it can or that it can't that you can't paint a mural on it i mean the only thing it says about murals is that they are encouraged as a form of public art specifically can i clarify one thing i know i was just asking ron this the city of dentin property appearance guidelines is not a regulation as i understand it right it was a proposed uh standard that that that staff came up with to my knowledge that the the city council has not approved it you know considered it's not established by or it's not a regulation it doesn't it's not intended to bear upon this commission's decision making uh you know as in carrying out its obligations under the dentin code uh you know to the extent that it might be instructive perhaps and i don't know roman correct me if you have uh information to the contrary but you know i was just asking rod just a minute ago is why would this bear upon the charge of of this commission uh it's as i understand it the the charge of the commission is to look at historical appropriateness just to add to that um to what jerry spoke of these are guidelines and you know they're they're meant to help um guide development but standards they're they're not so i mean if they were standards they would be in the development code or part of the development code right and i i mean i i bear back to you know what is our mission and i think i have to agree the mission is to preserve history maybe not history from you know 1890 but maybe history from the past hundred years or so and i the only thing i've seen as a mural that's somewhat historic and i drive down oak a lot is the um scripture building used to have used to i say it's been painted by the way the sign for what was the sign for do you remember what it was for it was an old coca-cola yeah that's right exactly it was an old coca-cola sign but they took that out yeah they sam blasted it off and scott brown has the painting there now and i look at that as advertising if we look back at what they said advertising i don't believe that this mural is advertising anything no so if we look at that and those kind of guidelines it's not for advertising it's all art and but it might might you know the reason i'm not i don't really not in favor it's not because it's art or whether i like it or not i love blue i love white so that's not the issue the issue is it doesn't really fit most of downtown okay john madam chairman am i i'm hearing all this and basically what i'm gathering is that everybody is saying that one side looks okay the back side's okay the other side's okay but it's the front right the facade okay roan when you're done can you put a picture that front yes of course you can you would like to have this one or you got that big one that's a good one thank you that helps that's exactly what we need to see or even the older pictures i wouldn't mind seeing some of the older ones rolling before this are rather recent in the past year or two at tops shall we see history again well we've got like this kind of here yeah there's the ugly side 70s where they filled in the part of at the top that was caves thrift next door and then what about two number 14 why don't you show us 14 um that's the back side of the building oh you're right i couldn't tell when the small thumbprint right and the i think you mean number 12 yes exactly i do mean 12 sorry yeah there's the kind of so one of the big differences that we notice is what you pointed out earlier roman is that the brickwork up at the top has been filled in um you know now we have the curved windows but they're kind of a flatter panel um it looks like is that tile work yes behind the plaza sign can't tell can you yeah it it looks like you can see the tile right here right there's the tile work um and then it had of course the the top at the the thing on the top yeah that little things the black things to be i don't know what you call it i'm not i'm sure it's like bangs helen could tell us what it's called oh sorry the black thing at the top we don't know what it's called the entablature thank you thank you it was probably pressed 10 ruman already said it once so he takes credit on me so when we look at today's i mean i don't know that i could call it a restoration back to this because parts of it are filled in and things like that but probably it didn't have a mural on it that that looks so different than everything else on on the square right i mean i guess that that's that's the point that that i keep coming back to is it looks so different from anything other picture on the square and you know i've looked at a lot of the things that have been down in the county courthouse and looked at pictures from all around the square i'm very interested in this so i take a look at a lot of pictures and i've never seen anything looks even close to that you know and that's that's the problem i do like murals and stuff but maybe it's not right for there i don't and just to address john's concern about property rights yes but you know what you were buying when you moved into historic areas that you were buying the historic you know look alike it's not like we sprung this upon you you knew it existed i mean i know i live in a historic district i have to live with that not that a lot of my neighbors do by the way they change their windows put up fences and nobody seems to do more than oh maybe you shouldn't have done that here's the here's the dug around here to find this section that deals with specifically certificates of appropriates and not within a historic district so it does tell us here standard procedure i think there's a little review in here criteria for denial i think uh were you looking at this that this criteria i just wanted to point it out there's a criteria for denial now this is in our ordinance so it says criteria for denial of a certificate of appropriateness one must be denied if there is a final decision that the proposed work will have an adverse effect on one the external architectural features of the historic landmark two the ex the external architectural features of the properties in the block or in the historic district as a whole or three the future preservation maintenance and use of the historic landmark and the district and you see there below f that's the process we've followed by him submitting an amendment asking for an amendment to a certificate of appropriateness and that's that line f there but so that's kind of the most on point part of our historic ordinance that i believe exists because this it doesn't pertain to a specific district and the national registered district that we have had um has never been legally recognized by our local ordinance and um but there are those things called the standards or this that which are you know i say secretary of interior standards for historic preservation but they don't address um they'll they actually specifically address if you have bare brick don't paint the brick very it's a very conservative approach it's simply uh repair rather than replace and and keep original material um it's kind of the way that don't get into this part of it don't have a question on denial of things when i came before the board i was putting up a new i wanted to put up a new building and one of the things is i got mine conditionally because you could choose what i put on my my board i'm a little i'm a little confused a little bit fuzzy how you can say oh you had to use wood you can't use hardy board which that changed but anyway it seems to me wasn't this unpainted it wasn't it unpainted previously i mean the pictures we see historically were unpainted i don't know when it got painted it got painted well before so if we go here this is this is painted i believe 60 70s yeah because they put the um they covered up the the brickwork there probably painted stucco up here if we got to go recent we could just i'm pretty sure with google street view will give us some so while you're trying to find that roman i appreciate you pulling up the um the was that from the ordinance what was that from our ordinance okay so the argument i was trying to make although i wasn't as eloquent as our ordinance was that uh my opinion is that a mural on the front facade of this building does adversely affect the external architectural features of the landmark that we're ready for a motion that would that would be it i'm i would be ready for a motion yes i will happily do that i'll make a i'll make a motion that we deny the certificate of appropriateness for the amendment for the mural that was made by angie angie i would like to ask you a question are you specific are you saying for the entire mural or for the facade specifically i'm saying for what has been asked of this certificate of appropriateness here for the facade and that backside if that is that so the facade in this and the south side the south side not what's already been done no only what has come before the board today okay but the south side has already been painted as well correct without a coa okay so you my motion is for denial okay did anybody second it i'm so sorry i wouldn't i would amend that my motion would be to deny the the west face only and allow the south okay we yeah we've got a motion yeah we got a motion that's pending here you can offer and we don't have a second yet uh and uh you you could offer a friendly amendment but we we do need to see if we get a second to this motion i'll second the second motion from angie which one are you second kenneth is seconding angie's original motion correct yes okay helen is going to offer a friendly amendment i would like to offer a friendly amendment to uh to that motion which would be for the uh to deny the west face but approve the south face i'll second that yeah can we say something john is seconding that motion so now we would have a vote on the friendly amendment on whether to modify the original motion by the friendly amendment okay all those in favor of helen's friendly amendment that was seconded by john all those in favor of helen's friendly amendment seconded by john please say aye aye you should do a show of hands please do a show of hands three four five there are five in favor of the friendly amendment okay so now you vote on it as amended so we can vote on it do i not have to ask how many denied well you you do okay all those opposed please say nay with a hand raised so angie and kenneth right okay so there are two who opposed okay can i ask a question yes you may can we now talk about that one since it's yeah because the motion is pending on the floor is the motion as amended okay so so my question of the board is what difference is it if it's on the front side of it facing the square or if it's on the side if you can still see it from the areas on the square that we were just talking about because if you're one day up in wells fargo if you're at lsa up in the courth ouse you're still going to see that and that's still a main portion of the square john uh to carry your motion to carry your idea further then you have to take it off on the oak side because you can see it from the oak side too so what you're saying is strip the bill no sir i'm not because we already have voted and approved that side of it and and i personally was in favor of it at that point but that's still not facing in in my mind not facing the front of the square okay got it okay i know i got it so i would have a i would have an answer to you on that one which would be that there is in fact a precedent for murals up on a second level we have that at lsa burger um we we had it back 30 50 years ago on the side of the hardware store evers hardware store as well you can see it but it is above and it is on the side of the building actually the opera house also has the mural that does face i mean it is facing the court the courthouse so i have a question it is so those that you said like that said evers was that advertising yes or was it a mural it was an advertising there's an advertising mural and then there's art mural and i don't think we're talking about the same thing advertising is just that whether it's a neon light whether it's painting there's a to me there's a difference there i'd agree with you but we do are also have it at la uh la burger lsa burger where it is a mural up on that patio area okay is there really i never noticed it yes but that's inside of the patio no no it's outside really i don't even know i think i can't yes i'm sure because there's the wall of murals on the interior and then there's the big flag on the exterior i'll show you yeah google google earth yeah exactly eric did you have a question okay man so you're keeping track of this right i'm so clear he's doing a good job okay okay so what we currently have on the floor in motion is while we're bringing this up so there's the evers heart see there's the the star there it is but that's inside of the no i'm talking about the star that's i'm looking up top what are you looking at up top and then the mural yeah and even on the closer side you got a bigger star yes you see where this texas that's like a texas flag running along the side there where did i just it's obscure but this is going to be a bit obscure as well it's it's really above the roof you're almost going to have to get a drone to see it unless you're in that right it kind of like the uh who's the the jackson law office that's got the oh yeah yeah yeah jackson hagen who's got the big painted sign which is i guess advertising but you really don't notice it because it's up on that above portion that is a wall sign right sign but it's also it's also muted i think the other reason you don 't notice is it's more muted it's black on a dark tan or something so it just blends you know i don't see it i just but so okay so kenneth you had a question about the did you have a question or did you just want clarification on this is what that mural looks like i just want clarification okay okay so the motion that we have in motion right now on the floor is to deny the coa with the friendly amendment um that we allow the south side to remain painted so we are only asking for removal of the the facade is really where we're at right now okay all right so are we ready to take a vote on it yes what it bothers me is we didn't actually discuss the amendment i guess kenneth didn't get a chance to speak more until after we voted on the amendment so that's gone it's passed it's passed okay we're moving forward all right all those in favor please raise your hand and say aye aye one two three four six seven seven in favor of all those opposed please say nay none opposed so the motion passes okay technically you had a motion to deny that was amended so you don't have a motion to approve the side yet okay so now we have to make a motion to approve the side is that what you're saying yes because we denied because the motion was a motion to deny and now we have to have qualified so really you need to have you need to vote on whether to approve a mural that's limited to the southern facade okay i motion to uh approve this motion to vote to approve the mural on the south face of andy's bar thank you for your motion helen hold on does anybody second i will second it but i do have a question okay can i don't know if i'm can i okay yes you can ask a question if that side on the other person approved the back is already approved correct the back was approved last november thank you john for seconding the motion clarification yes yes exactly yes okay so we now have a motion for approval for the any further discussion okay are we ready all those in favor of helen's approval please say aye with a raise of hand aye one two three four all of the above all of those opposed please say nay and with a raise of your hand three nays the eyes have it by a narrow margin very narrow so the motion is approved by four and denied by three okay here we go i feel like i need to take a deep breath and let's go on to the next agenda item we need to receive a report hold a discussion and give a staff direction regarding the update to the historic preservation plan and hear a presentation from the Lakota group eric thank you so much for your presence here tonight i really appreciate your work on the square okay we like eric we do he does he does a really good job while we're doing that can i ask a like a point of order again it's a question about the procedure because we denied the coa should we not have approved it with changes because when we denied that didn't they need to go get a new one and come back that's why i said no because once you denied a coa it's gone from your agenda and so what we really probably should have done is approved it with modifications that that's the reason i said no is because i don't think you can do what we just did but i like i'm not upset with the result at all that's a good point but so that was my question yeah and the the problem was we had we had that motion to deny get amended and and so it complicated the situation and i i don't know you you raise a good point i think that uh that that that technically uh it makes a lot of sense but you know how you still have the unresolved issue of the southern facade was never approved and so from a pragmatic standpoint southern application well i'm willing to let i just like in the future we might want to just think about running at it the other way now so that it's clear and there's no fans or buzz can we not just say let us have a a second motion is a clarification to approve well and and i think one of the things that we've really worked on in the last several years is trying to work with um owners and operators as much as possible so that things can move forward but um so i'm really glad that we were at least came to a resolve because yes a denial does mean that you have to resubmit and then there's a time stamp so but don't we need to go back and do what Roy said which is deny with well i kind of harken back to uh you know henry robert who came up with the rules they are they are rules of order more than rules of procedure uh they are designed to get work done to resolve things pragmatically they're they're not really intended to stop things from from happening if there's a pragmatic result i i think that you did maintain order in in your proceedings uh you you you dealt with the situation as it arose which was awkward because of the amendment and uh and so i i think you came to a determination that is understandable and uh agreeable but uh you know is there a better way to do it yeah i mean when richard hayes presented uh on parliamentary rules to the city council he said i've never once seen a uh you know any kind of uh board meeting where you could you know take shots at it and say yeah you could have done it better some other way uh but but the point is did you get the work done that you needed to do and and maintain order and and uh get business done i i think that you accomplished your purpose even if you know you you could uh you you could point and and find procedural errors if you really wanted to look but i i think you came to a decision that can be followed just double checking that we don't have to revisit this again we do know okay all right uh-huh oh i've already read it we need to yes please let's begin okay sorry i read it before well i just have the pleasure and the honor to introduce to you uh some gentlemen from the lacoda group nick and siraj um who have been uh engaged to work to help you guys and me and our department uh create a new or update the 1986 historic preservation plan for the city of denton they have a little presentation they'd like to share with you and this is just an introduction tonight just just um letting you know that who they are and then we can take any uh have any discussion that you guys want to have um and i'll pick them up and so with no further ado i've got nick and siraj right here if that's all right with you what what you knew that's what it was so we're just giving some direction there's nothing to be made emotion on okay thanks roman commission welcome thank you um my name is nick callow jeresis um i'm with the lacoda group i have a long last greek name so if you want to know how to spell i can give you my business card later um it's a pleasure to be here to uh work with you on this historic preservation plan i have my colleague siraj asfahani with me um here today uh we flew in this morning so actually we can spend a couple days here in the community do field work as we start this planning process so um it's great to be here i have a very short presentation i know that's probably something you're going to appreciate after the discussion you just had um and being a former preservation commissioner myself i understand completely um how the decision making can happen um and i want to give you a very short uh presentation about what the historic preservation plan is about as roman said this is really a uh an update to your previous historic preservation plan and um like any community when you have a comprehensive plan or a downtown plan or a neighborhood plan communities have historic preservation plans because basically you want we want to look at the future of historic preservation in a community and so we want to take a look at what's happened over the last 20 30 years update the plan and then um really integrate that plan and all the other development policies that the city has uh so that's what the um the real basic um objective of the historic preservation plan is what we'll talk uh to you today about is basically the work plan as we go forward is is basically going to be probably a little less than a year process to develop the plan and to tell you a little bit more about who we are at the Lakota group as we go forward and um as i've said uh really to talk about what a preservation plan is about it really kind of involves four major things this is kind of the big broad areas that we'll be looking at over the next few months um the first thing um is surveying registration it's basically looking at what you 've surveyed in your community what are some areas that you need to look at and then what our future national register districts or local districts or even conservation districts so we'll be taking a look at that aspect uh we are looking at economic development or what we call historic preservation based community development and we look at how do we integrate historic preservation when it comes to revitalizing or maintaining the vibrancy of your downtown other commercial areas your residential areas so we'll be looking at economic development incentives and regulatory tools as part of that um the third part is city program administration we'll be taking a look at how the city manages the historic preservation program we're looking at how the commission operates um staffing um and things like that so that's a very important key uh i know that you have been updating your ordinances and codes we're not going to be taking a heavy look at that but we'll be taking a look at where areas where you can improve um design guidelines and things like that and then last but not least it's it's also about advocacy and education how do we promote the benefits of historic preservation because not everybody knows what we know as a commission yes what are the benefits of preservation so we have to think about how do we promote that how do we educate the citizens of denton um and how do we get them involved in the preservation movement here locally so we'll be looking at that uh very closely so all these four parts really constitute what we call a comprehensive community preservation program so we have all four of these parts working well you're doing good it's you know it's a comprehensive program so that's why we're taking a look at it excellent um just talk about the work plan going forward um there's really going to be two basic phases to this process the first phase is what we call the state of the city and uh saraj and i and several other people are going to be coming here to the community quite often to really take a look at your historic districts um your downtown other areas and neighborhoods and um we're going to be taking a look at where there are future districts um but there are a lot of other things that we'll be doing uh we'll be taking undertaking an active stakeholder engagement program so we want to find out from the citizens of of denton what they want to see in preservation going forward so we are going to be talking to the community quite often during this process um as i said saraja and i are here for the next couple of days hopefully it's not going to rain on us tomorrow but that's what they're projecting so hopefully we can get a lot of photography in uh but we are going to be doing a sort of a reconnaissance survey uh we've already had discussion with uh roman today about where some areas we should be taking a look at uh we'll be doing mapping and analysis and i'll talk about that in a moment there'll be one community workshop that will hold probably january january would be a good time for us to escape chicago so um so we're thinking that would be a good month uh but we'll be here to to have a general community input session about preservation we'll also be doing an online survey for the community and then by march 2019 we will have a state of the city report which is kind of the summary of the first phase um and then the analysis um you know we're looking at a lot of different things we're also looking at historic contexts mainly as we look back in the past in denton what are the contexts the historical forces the people the built environments that we haven't looked at before in the community um we've uh over the last few years working with communities and preservation plans one of the things they always ask us are there groups are there people that we haven't really looked at um so you know for instance we said this during our interview you know what about the hispanic and african-amer ican communities here in denton have they been looked at what are the built resources associated with these groups that should be considered so um so those those are just some of the things that we'll be taking a look at so we'll take a good um long depth look at your historic context and what made denton denton basically the other part of the analysis is we'll be taking a look at a lot of different policy contexts we'll be taking a look at all these things i'm not going to get into them in any great detail but we are looking at tourism we'll be looking at um you know your building codes what incentives are out there for historic preservation and what needs to be developed um we are also looking at sustainability how does preservation play a fundamental role in sustainability in the community and i'll talk about that no more so these are just some of the things that we'll be looking at during the state of the city process um as part of our approach at locota we always believe that a strong community preservation program has to have strong partnerships it's not only just the municipality that is going to be involved in uh preservation but who are the other entities we need to bring on board that will work with us as partners in promoting preservation so these are just some of the groups that we'll be taking a look at you know obviously if there's civic and neighborhood associations universities and schools um the community development entities and um your tourism program so we'll be taking a look at how we build a stronger organization partnership going forward and then we're going to be you know doing a lot of different cool analysis because we like to do a lot of data crunching at locota and we'll be doing a lot of mapping one thing one thing that we found interesting in your comprehensive plan that you've been working on is there was there's really a strong discussion in your comprehensive plan about community character and maintaining that community character but the comprehensive plan didn't tell you where community character happens in denton and so we're going to do that in the preservation plan where are those areas in the community that have high character i show you a map from a plan that we're wrapping up in recene wisconsin where they asked us to map where the high character areas are and where there's potential for adaptive use where there's potential for preservation so we're going to just map those areas out for you because those may be areas that we may want to take a look at closely whether they're historic districts or conservation districts or areas where we have to take you know take some measures to protect that character and then the the second phase is really preparing the preservation plan so from april to july 2019 we'll be writing the draft plan we'll have another community open house we'll present that planning and to gain additional community feedback we'll have consultation with the city and the commission and then we'll develop the final plan so we're looking at july 2019 to have that happen and then the contents of the preservation plan you know basically this is kind of giving you a sneak peek of what we think could be in the in the plan but one is to have an executive summary an introduction the historic preservation plan will be the first part of the plan and then implementation will be important key and then we'll have a big description about your historic resources here in the community and then we'll be taking a look at all your other city planning and programs that have some aspects or some relationship to historic preservation and last but not least we'll have a chapter on community engagement and summarizing what the community told us during this process and i'll let saraj do the next couple of slides and we'll wrap up so community engagement is the process of relationship building with the community specifically in a community planning process we do community engagement in four phases we start with informing we inform the community about the plan through a project website and a project brand and through social media where we connect with different organizations and civic groups and then after that we start our listening phase where we do listening in two different ways first stakeholder interviews stakeholders are particularly a group of a specific group of people that have a unique relationship with the city of denton and we need to hear their voice while that is a very specific group we always have surveys open to the public and that's how we hear their feedback and then we also hear the feedback of the community when we engage with them in workshops so workshops can happen in two different ways either community open house where we set a date and people come to us or we surprise people by going to pop up and we bring the plan with us and find the people and talk to them about it last but not least we empower this community engagement process with the steering committee the steering committee are the group that basically help us do all the previous engagement engagement of pieces and the landmark commission and with the steering committee they're going to be very engaged in the process and they're going to be helping us develop the plan and we're going to check in with them on several milestones and make sure that they are working hand in hand with us that being said we are not worried about diehard preservationists they're going to be there every single meeting they're not going to miss an opportunity what we're worried about are underrepresented groups traditionally underrepresented in the planning process and we have learned that in every community there's a group of underrepresented and we need to find ways to cross those barriers of participation that they have so some of them might be millennials seniors communities of color college students and we've over time learned that we need to find out what those challenges are target them and find the best strategies in order to across those barriers and we're going to work with you and different community groups in order to reach out to them and get them engaged with that oh yeah and so this this plan or this community engagement plan specifically it's a great looking mural where's this mural at again okay so we're here to build on previous efforts and through your strategic plan we heard a lot about a little campaign that said we love denton and we want to keep that campaign happening and that's going to be our tagline moving forward into this preservation plan okay just to wrap up we have a couple more slides just to give you a preview our preservation plans are not text they we pride on putting a lot of graphics and images in them so that they're nice to look at it's a document you would want to read it's something that we want the public to read and other stakeholders so it's going to be a very visual document so just to give you a preview on that and then last but not least i just wanted to give you an overview if the work the lacoda group we're based in chicago illinois we do preservation planning around the country but for this assignment we've brought two sub consultants on that will be working with us one is the clue group it's called the community land use and economics group they're actually based in philadelphia and they're going to kind of help us on the economic development end because we feel that that's an important thing here in denton is to look at incentives and how do we integrate preservation and economic development so they'll be helping us on this project and then the second firm is mosley architects they're based in baltimore and tom weibull is a principal there he's going to help us on sustainability and sustainable design how do we integrate preservation into sustainability and he's an expert on that so we'll be taking a look at your design guidelines and seeing how sustainable sustainable design can be integrated with preservation so so that's going to be the team you'll be seeing the josh bloom and tom a couple times during this process you'll see siraj and i and a few others throughout the course of this project over the next year so that's it thank you so much this looks fantastic do we have any questions i have just a just a couple i just made a couple notes as your slides i'd looked at them before so they are very graphically very nice i like this so you and i'll just give you the through how did you how what is the steering committee um how do you choose your stakeholders how are you doing the selection processes for many of these things well i believe the uh you probably should have been more clear on the disturbing committee is going to be the commission i see pretty much is that correct i i just wonder to this and the stakeholders and stuff withhold judgment i believe that we've got to get asked uh confirmed that that's okay with city council we're moving in the direction that either the landm ack commission or in in total or if we're given the authority we could probably choose less people five or seven of you all or something like that for a committee yeah okay i'm sure just want to just add to that that the code group is also going to be presenting to city council uh tomorrow afternoon that's actually is that not true yeah it's postponed for a little bit but it's a problem so we haven't got that confirmation yet any other questions okay helen um what sort of data are you going to be collecting well um let's see uh well we're going to be looking at everything that's been done before all your survey work uh your previous preservation plans your national register nominations your local nominations we'll be taking a look at all of that we 'll be reviewing all your other community plans that are relevant including your comprehensive plan other plans so we'll be taking a look at all those things your economic development programs um we are going to be looking at a variety of gis data they'll help us do some of the analysis such as character areas um so we we already have that in house at lacoda for our gis information so that's just that's basically what we'll be looking at in the first few months it's just taking a look at all that information so what about field work then what are you gathering in your field work well for the next couple of days we're primarily doing our field work the next couple of days we're first going to be looking at all your all your districts uh we looked at the downtown today uh we talked with uh roman this afternoon about some key areas that could be future historic districts um areas that are of concern um i think we are you know one of the things that has been very interesting the last few years um doing preservation plans is you know neighborhoods that were developed in the 50s and 60s are now historic right you know so we'll be taking a look at a lot of those post-world war two um areas but we are also looking at you know areas that historically had you know your african american population uh your spanish population so we'll be taking a look at those so uh so we talked with roman today and he gave us a good um a good uh lay of the land and we'll be talking with him tomorrow a little bit more we'll also be looking at significant architects and people you know that are that are important to the community are there interviews with the community yes um that's probably something we probably should have made a little bit more um explicit in our presentation we are coming back in december tent atively for the uh probably the first first or second week in december we haven't pinned down the exact dates we'll be working with roman the next few weeks on setting up stakeholder interviews so we'll be coming back for two and a half days to do a series of stakeholder interviews and i'm bringing the entire team to the stakeholder interview so we can talk to a wide variety cross section of the community are there any surveys yes there'll be at least one survey um we'll do that survey probably around the same time when we do the open house and it's probably going to be in mid january and the survey it's you know it will be internet based um and then we'll you know we'll work with roman in the city to try to publicize it as much as possible but there'll be at least one survey sometimes we do two surveys once the draft plan is done you know to see if there's a need to do a second one okay so so that's full community input all citizens sort of survey yes very good thank you any other questions okay thank you so much for your time all right thank you look forward to working with you yes okay okay there's no motion to be made for that agenda item so we can actually go ahead and move on to agenda item e receive a report hold a discussion and select a historic property of the month the fun part i forgot we had that yay okay in your packet you had three houses to choose from but now you have two i couldn't get confirmation from one of the owners that i could use their property for this so i'm bringing back to you two homes at one at 606 robert street that you saw last time this was designed by roland laney who was a local architect here who did a lot of work and didn't and built around 1950 and this is just to the west of the bell avenue still conservation district soon to be historic district this is a mid-century modern house they're actually undergoing some extensive let's see work in the back they're putting in a swimming pool and a lot of things but they brought in the work looks really good and i've had the pleasure of walking through this house it was like a mid-century modern museum perfectly intact all the wood detailing i hope we get an opportunity sometime to to visit it together then down below is 1003 west oak built in 1910 out on on the out on west oak and this is just another home you've seen this before but we thought we could bring one back and this had been before you three times but not three consecutive times so just asking for approval to keep our great program going excellent all right so we're voting on the top and the bottom so we 've got b and c there's no discussion necessary you have to choose either b or c you're going to pick one i'm going to ask you to raise your hand in just a moment i'm going to give you a moment to think about it really weigh your options okay here we go if you would like to vote for b as the historic property of the month please raise your hand okay if you would like to vote for c as the historic property of the month please raise your hand five okay stuff the ballot box with us i know i think we've got some uh we've got some representation from the neighborhood over here just across the street okay so but we live across the street from this okay so uh five to two um and the 1003 west oak took the vote thank you roman for another exciting round of historic property of the month i'd like to give a shout out to mid-century mods oh i think yes especially when they're not already in they need to go on tour and then they might get see yeah yeah we got another couple more items yet okay do i have to make a real motion for that no we're good all right project matrix let's take a look thank you guys see you tomorrow thank you so much we've got some to be determined dates in here and not a lot of changes from the last time you've seen this um if you want to add anything to it everything's sort of in the works sure okay if anybody has something to add please let me know roy well i have can i ask a general question absolutely okay so eric was here and we denied him and so theoretically he has to go away and take the paint off the front of the building yes how long before he starts getting fined how much is the fine 500 a day i don't um there's obviously going to be a follow-up with mr palito we'll follow up with him set a timeline typically we will give the person resident or property owner adequate time to remediate the issue so as far as i find i don't think we're gonna enter that yet but we'll definitely follow up with the with mr eric palito thank you i'll add to that that there is an appeals process so i don 't know which way to go can i ask a question to that yes angie so with an appeal process since he did the work before he ever got a certificate of appropriateness how can he be able to go and appeal to that and i do believe there should be a citation given um because he did do it without unless he was directed by staff to go ahead i think that um that is an order because it was done before he came before the board i see ron writing things down so he's we you know we have i just want i just want to make sure posting though uh you know just from a technical standpoint the that the posting was to consider approving a certificate of appropriateness we're getting into enforcement areas that are not even necessarily uh you know part of this but it's it's it's clearly not a part of the posting of approving a certificate of appropri ateness so it may be something as far as giving direction for bringing an issue back uh that i'm just concerned about the open meetings act and and getting outside the posting that was well i give it just a kind of a follow-up but as far as my feeling has been is all we do is just say oh that wasn't right to do it so i think if we do not have some kind of posting on what is the penalty for doing it everybody is going to keep doing it because we talked after the meeting about one of the houses in our neighborhood and roman you were there i it was it didn't make this and i may be john who noted that should follow up with you but certificate of appropriate i mean if what if somebody just doesn't bother put one up and yet they've changed the character about the historic house right and we did talk about that after the meeting yeah we've got that one and i have it that's the house now they made some alterations in the back they changed the windows inside yeah um well in my you know i've been here two and a half years and there has been other than that incident i think i can't i have a hard time thinking of a lot of times it hasn't in my time been here been a problem across the street shall i go on it's a common thing but this is not for right now so let's move on i just want to say that we do need to handle this at some point because it happens all of the time and people even though you bike around the neighborhood i don't see whose whose job is it to say you've done something without appropriateness i would like to know that answer let me just try to address that real quick and then we'll speak specifically to the subject matter after tonight the results of the vote from the commission roman will send out a letter of what has happened and what their next steps will be they being the eric bolido and applicant and within that letter there will be some timeline as to when that front facade will be addressed and if you like we can share with you what that is either at our next meeting or you know through email we can also do that as well well i extended that question on to ask what happens to people who don't even bother like eric did which i gave him credit for at least applying for it even though he was seeking forgiveness as opposed to permission to do it anyway and never even apply for a specific appropriate and where the u is to monitor that so i mean it's another it's another issue but i think we have i would like to put that on the agenda or how do we deal with this because people do it all the time and nobody does anything guidelines for enforcement is that what you're asking for well what do you do with somebody who has done something that has not been approved at all and doesn't even bother to come here and they know what full well they they're supposed to it's a code enforcement it's a prosecution enforcement all those yeah i mean it has to be reported and then it goes to i mean since we're the historic commission it's a violation of of the of historic codes it is but but a violation of code is brought before the municipal court and it's a prosecution issue uh yes that there there is some uh you know discretion in bringing it forward and in having a trial and what have you but uh in terms of perhaps you know policy direction for a code amendment if that's kind of a direction that you're going to to change policy that's probably you know for a future time yeah i agree it's for a future time but it keeps popping up and so i mean just just really quickly add that um if it is a zoning requirement and zoning of appropriateness is a zoning requirement we do have two zoning officers and so any report of any violation will be forwarded to those two officers they will follow up and if needed citations and any follow-ups will happen accordingly and uh certainly if there have been other violations that you mentioned they haven't made it here of course not yeah i have not seen that and i wasn't aware of it i mean i don't live in your neighborhood but uh we don't get a lot of uh sort of a discussion on on that on that topic maybe never since and i've been one year here so thank you ellen roy well i'm i don't know that i mean it's a code enforcement issue i mean those violations would probably never come on our agenda right it's not not what we do not unless they issue a coa right we follow up retroactively even that becomes an enforcement issue like suppose we issue a coa and someone doesn't follow it that never comes back on our agenda does it uh not general i mean i guess what i'm really saying is do what you want is what i hear i mean that's what i hear if if you don't apply for a coa i'm here and do what you want because nobody cares i mean i i just kind of what i hear well no it's just it's a code enforcement city officer they're the enforcement branch we simply review coas and issue them or deny them or approve them with modification though if someone does what you're suggesting yeah there's there's certainly a process for that but it's not us educate me later on we can do a little i'd like to do a little background i was quickly checking on that i know in brownsville texas the landmark commission can actually suggest the a penalty and i'm looking here this is where we get into it on this part of the code but i don't remember having that penalty options i'm sorry i didn't but but i but i on the topic i just want to say that it we haven't seen it a lot and if it's an issue we we in turn we need to get on that a part of it but i will say um and and this gets to the point of a mr palito's painting on his building um that you know we're going we are the city of the development service department's making really good progress with an ordinance amendment that will really provide some level of protection for the downtown square and that's gotten nearly well no unanimous support from the business owners and the building owners in the community and i think that credit goes to scott mcdonald who kind of came up with the idea of how to put pull that together and i i hope that people keep keep in there keep in mind that you know let's move forward and do good but sometimes you've got to choose your choose the battles as they say but importantly that's a cliche the important thing is that we uh keep keep our eye on the big goal of the long -term heritage of our city and and the landmark commission in the past before i was here a long time ago apparently there were problems that were this at time that even the city council considered that this this taking away the landmark commission so uh you know the the we've got to not not saying we wrote we we protect buildings that's what we're going to do we're always going to do that i'm just saying keep an eye on the big picture that's all that's what i would suggest we keep trying to do but uh i have one more item if we get if you oh you still have this before you the uh the project matrix matrix here okay did you say you have one more item we've added the uh and talking about enforcement next time some kind of or some kind of clarification on enforcement and then you want to we're going to follow up on that house over there um where on here is the effort that we were was presented to us just now it well that happened a while back it's been allocated um so so okay there's no action on our part no put it on right now if the plans go forward i 'll meet with them and we'll we do need to just confirm how we move forward and we want to run run it by city council they've uh already approved a budget for this we just want to make sure they 're fully on board with their direction we're going with creating updating the preservation plan so i'll make one comment the the uh lacoda just mentioned that they wanted to look at our design guidelines and we don't really have so i was like well that's interesting we've got a little segment see little pieces little snippets so they're going to look at those snippets yeah yeah it's not fleshed out enough to be much use to them and so that's why i've started asking more questions about what what information you're going to gather because uh you know i think that if you go back and look at our documentation it won't take you two years which is one very broad project scope from yes need to work it's so huge i want i would like to hope that the end result is something that we can all hang our hat on as a you know moving forward and not that's a real good point service to lip service to a requirement right well i think that might be the good point having this committee steered because um you know if there's parts of what they explain that seems superfluous that we don't need to maybe we need to focus on guidelines there's room possibly to discuss it with them you know i was actually when when he said that i'm thinking well i thought maybe that's what we're going to come away with when you were done is is something that's really a document with a lot of meat in it that we can then follow it was just so it was so broad i kind of i was losing focus what was their focus again what you know it was just so broad so i was just a little worried that no i don't i don't think there was no ron's been about 12 11 no i don't think there was any historic preservation plan efforts uh there may have been some survey there was an update to the survey survey maybe there was an update to the survey like right when i first got on 2012 the idiots uh boliver survey 2015 idiots hill yes grant funded so you know just i have quite a lot of experience in this area of these type of of studies and there's the good ones and the ones that literally only take shelf space and and have no real value once they're done and so of course we we want the former we want we want something that that is truly a plan and not just giving us back the information that we already know i guess that's you know that's why i'm worried about it being so broad yeah that the lack of focus that's okay i mean i'm glad to hear that we're probably going to be on it and we can give our input and we can say you know here's the areas we need to focus we need some real depth of you know uh of documentation on where we're going forward as we try to preserve the history of this community i think people to follow once none of us are on this board i think one of the things that they did talk about that is of great importance is how visual they like their plans to be and that's really big because this needs to also be an education tool not just for the commission who is generally made up of preservationists but for the community at large and that's a really big deal that the community be able to understand what the preservation plan is right because look how important it can be to cities i mean if you look at grapevine you look at mckinney well and you look at how many people are hesitant to move into neighborhoods or to have their buildings registered or do any of that because they feel like they will have their rights taken away from them because they don't understand what what the historic pressure they would move into a subdivision with enough hoa's a little old bitties running around giving them tickets for leaving their garbage out too long really okay but but that isn't an actual thing that people i often hear is that there are homeowners who are hesitant to move forward with registering their house or getting it landmarked because they don't understand what the historic plan is and so i think that it's really good that we make it so that the general public understands it and can latch on to it i'm glad we're doing it yes it's gonna be great okay all right if there is nothing else or anything else to be added i have one for the concluding items okay sorry thank you so in concluding items you can you can recognize uh people there and congratulate people so some time back i submitted an application to the texas historic commission for a little guy named john mor ris and uh isn't that sweet so we have i haven't framed this and i just want i just think it's a good night to to give a little heads up this is an award of merit from the texas historical commission yes thank you for all of your efforts in preservation john mr mcallan thank you for your award of merit submission for john and donna morris of denton texas we're delighted to read about their contributions to historic preservation in the city the outstanding work by mr and mrs morris was received was reviewed by the texas historical commission staff and approved by our executive director they provide an example of the wonderful work that can be accomplished when knowledgeable individuals show a never-ending dedication to preservation we're proud to present them with the texas historic commission's award of merit and they'd like to come and present it sometime to you but i wanted to give you a heads up that it's it's on its way very nice thank you john okay that's all i have all right move we adjourn let's do it we're done