Order at 535 today, Monday October the 8th, 2018 for the
Historic Landmark Commission.
If everybody will please rise for the pledges of allegiance
.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of
America and to the Republic for which
it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty
and justice for all.
Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to Texas, one
state under God, one and indivisible.
Okay, we have a few items for consideration tonight. The
first thing that we're going to
consider is an appointment for a member of the Historic
Landmark Commission for the vice chair
position. With that gone, we need to fill that position. Do
we have any nominations already?
I would like to make a nomination of Helen Bailey for vice
chair if she would be amiable to that.
You would? I would be amenable to that, yes. Thank you
Helen.
Are there any other nominations that anybody would like to
share?
I guess I have Mary Anderson. I had a question. Just what?
Mary Anderson, go ahead please. I'm
sorry, I don't know if you can hear me because I can't hear
myself. So I guess I was wondering
what qualifications were for being on HLC and sort of since
we're a historic commission, I just
wondered how everybody fit in. So I'd you know since I
there's so many new people here and I'm new,
how everybody came to be in here. I mean I know where a few
of you live right? A few of you live
in the historic districts but not everybody. I don't know
where everybody lives. I was just
hoping somebody would enlighten me and whether or not that
was related to the requirement for being
an officer of that. Certainly we have certain you know
obviously requirements but I think it'd be a
good idea to just go around the dais and just you know have
a quick introduction who you are and how
you was selected and what your interests are as far as
historic reservation. So excellent.
We can start with John Morris and we'll work our way around
to Roy.
I was hoping to be last. Oh we can switch it. No no I'm
kidding. I'll start and everybody else
will be a lot better at the presentation. Thank you so much
John. My name is John Morris. I live at 918 West
Oak Street. I bought the property back in 2004 and I have
lived there. We remodeled the interior,
restored the outside and the property. I have been, I have
a passion for
1900s type structures. My wife has been past chairman of
this committee in years past.
I've attended several of the meetings all the time. You
have been before this board many times.
Yeah and I take a great interest and pride in my city and
in my county and in my country.
So I look to have the best for all is my main purpose for
this. What is the best for Denton
in the historical section of Denton. Thank you so much for
sharing John. Mary would you like to
tell us why you're on this board? Yeah Mary Anderson I live
at 924 West Oak and funny we are
next-door neighbors and John's an excellent neighbor. We
like this a lot. So we we came to Denton. My
husband's at UNT. I'm at TWU but when we came to Denton we
drove down Oak on the way to UNT
and I went I gotta live here. It had houses with character
and they weren't built like
cookie cutters no offense but they didn't look like
everything else and I thought I've gotta live
here not to mention I don't like HOAs but you know one
finally came available and we bought it and
we've renovated inside the house quite considerably. I know
what how they used to make lead pipes work.
I was appointed by Don Duff yeah I mean how they they put
the lead in the pipes. It's very
interesting. So Don Duff appointed me on the committee. I
have a great interest in making
sure that we preserve the historical character of Denton
and not turn it into developer haven
for student apartments i.e. another name for single room
occupancies and I'm not a big I'm
not big on I don't care really what color you paint your
house so much as long as it's just
not really obscene. You know lime green may not work but it
is your house you paid for it but I'd
like to make sure that Denton historical area stays here
because that's the charm if we've been
to Grapevine if we've been to McKinney I think you'll see
that the historic character is what
drives the city going. Frisco is soulless McKinney's not
and there's a reason for it. I'd like Denton to
be that way also. Thank you so much Mary. Angie would you
like to share with us? I'm Angie Stripling. I live at 1815
North Bell Avenue.
We've been there about 10 years like everyone else. We've
had renovations. I've been before this
board several times. Never had an issue. I loved how it was
how everything went smoothly but I have
a passion for historic conservation and also for
preservation and I think that history is very
important. I think in a day and age of technology where
even children and students have their heads
down a lot there is a lot of beauty and architecture that
we have and I really have an interest in
all of that and preserving it. I'm kind of like Mary about
when it comes to paints and those kinds
of things but keeping character of what people thought of
in the history and why that character is
there is a passion for me. So when we renovated our own
home I tried to keep the character of the
home alive with the history behind it and so that's why I'm
on the board. Excellent. Thank you so much for sharing.
Since I'm next in line I'll go. I'm Alyssa Stevenson. I'm a
14 year Denton resident as of
this last year and I live downtown in one of the historic
buildings on the square and I love it.
I have helped renovate parts of the interior. I have a
desire well I have a passion for history.
It's actually what I teach. I'm a seventh grade Texas
history teacher and before that I actually
worked in construction and so that's when I was appointed
to this board and I was appointed by
Kevin Roden many years ago. So I love the unique character
of Denton and want to continue to see it
carry on that direction. Helen would you like to share with
us?
I'm Helen Bailey. I am an architect by trade. I am the
campus architect for the University of
North Texas and I was appointed to the commission by Dalton
Gregory two years ago now.
He primarily came to me because he knew I was an architect
and the board actually is there's two
positions that are named on the board that should be
represented. One is architect the other is
lawyer. So I filled a need there. I have a passion for
historic preservation. I always have my whole
career and I apply that on a daily basis with my work at
the University of North Texas which
you know also has a lot of historic structures within it
and preserving the history of
the University of North Texas and Denton as well is kind of
a life's work for me and so that's
basically why I'm here. No I don't live in an historic home
. No I don't live in any of the
historic districts but it won't be many years before my
house is actually you know qualified.
So I think it's about 30 years old. I live in Southridge
but anyway that is why I'm here. I've
lived in Denton since 2001. Excellent. I'm Kenneth William
son. I was appointed to the board
two three years ago. Greg Johnson appointed me. I want to
get involved in the city of Denton.
It's my home and I want it to be part of it and I didn't
just come up and say I want to be part
of the historical zoning commission. There was a need for
some construction like minded people on
the board and they asked me and I've always loved history.
I love the history of buildings. I love
watching the history of construction evolve and I think my
biggest thing is I do want to keep
Denton true and keep the intent of the structures where
they're at but also make sure that
make sure that we're not doing something that is out of
line or is costing more or doing something
that's not feasible as well. So I think that's my biggest
thing and why I'm here. Thank you so
much Kenneth. Roy. Roy Anderson. I'm a CPA. I've had a
practice with several accountants and then
for about 33 years. We have the building right across the
street 222 East McKinney and we've
owned it for quite some time. I went to grade school at the
old Robert E. Lee right off the
square. It's now behind the Methodist Church in the 60s and
went to North Texas University of North
Texas. My wife's granddad was a founding dean of the
College of Business. He has a building name.
My dad taught there for years. I was appointed a couple
years ago by John Ryan I believe.
My interest I'm fascinated by history. I read a lot study
and I read old
historical cars and I you know my whole thing about Denton
is growing so much that we have to
try and find a way to say what Denton has been and it isn't
the Denton of the 60s. It's actually
much better now and with the historic things and the focus
and it's a unique place to live and
of my 50 some odd years I've probably been here 50 of those
. I don't know a long time. Okay.
Thank you. Thank you so much Roy. I appreciate it. Okay so
Mary you did ask the question what were
the requirements for vice chair is that correct? Or any
just any you know of all of them it was
just one of those. Can I ask one I was just going to ask is
Jerry really a member of the committee?
I are you because they said something about a lawyer that's
why I just wanted to know.
I believe Miss Clegg is the lawyer. She's the law
representative. But no I'm just a staff liaison
you know to the extent that I give legal support and I
guess as long as I'm talking in here I have
the the section pulled up that defines the membership of
the historic landmark commission. It's
a nine-member board appointed by the city council. It has
to have at least one representative from
each of the following organizations or professions. The
county historical commission, county bar
association, certified public accountant, registered
architect, and an owner of real property in the
city. And so you could have other citizens in there as well
and then it provides for some ex
officio members that don't vote which I think are basically
the staff members. But at any rate I
hopefully that will be of help you know I guess in my role
working with sort of the parliamentary
issues we do have a a motion that's on the floor but has
not yet been seconded or voted upon.
So there is a call for nominations and and just so that we
could know where we are and stay on track
that's where we are. John. In that effort I would
second the nomination for the vice chair and ask that the
list of potentials be closed. Okay
you can do that. So John seconded the motion for Helen
Bailey as vice chair. All those in favor say
aye. Aye. All those opposed say nay. Excellent. So the
motion is approved. None deny. Let's go ahead.
So if we're on the next item. So you got seven just in
terms of filling this in looks like you have
seven ayes no nays and at least one that's absent. Two.
Okay.
Okay all right so our next item for consideration is
actually considering approval for the September
10th meeting minutes. However it is my understanding that
we actually have to have five members present
who were there and we do not have that tonight so I'm going
to move that we postpone those
for the next meeting. That's interesting. Second that.
Thank you so much Roy for your second.
Is there any question about that? All in favor please say
aye. Aye.
Great all in favor seven none. No all those opposed say nay
.
Great none denied. Our next item for consideration is item
c to receive a report hold a discussion
and give staff direction regarding an amendment to a
certificate of appropriateness to follow
for the continuance of an existing neural around to the
front side of the building located at
122 North Locust also known as Andes. Thank you so much
Roman. Thank you thank you all and after
y'all going around that table I just want to say I'm really
honored and humbled to be with such great
people. So the uh this item oh and I also want to say with
respect to the landmark we're working on
the packets a new packet for everybody give them an update
on what the rules are and all that.
We got hung up on if you've ever looked at our list of
historic landmarks it's really out of
order and there's some blanks in there we're trying to
figure that out and get it nice and clean
is where we are today on that. So this uh you saw this
permit back in November of 2017
the applicant Eric Pulido a six-year term uh six six year
term remember two or three terms of two
I think he served on here and he asked for that and y'all
approved it and and it's been up there
for a while um so it also with that permit came some some
rehabilitation work here restoration
work on these door panels here uh changing that steel panel
out and some other things and they're
going to start on that today but probably Wednesday now and
of course the weather is going
to need to cooperate so that's forthcoming. A little bit of
background this came up there was
a big discussion in the office uh if we had had our
ordinance revisions through already
that are waiting to get through the Denton development code
review process um quite frankly
this might have been approved by me this this amendment I
just letting you know that but it's
still required to be approved by our department and so we
discussed it in the department and we're
bringing it to you to see it again before we allow these
changes since you saw the application
originally that raised the question of why is Andes which
is uh right here a historic landmark
well I'll show you very quickly why that's the block in 18
85 and here's the headline of the
Topeka Kansas newspaper or an article in the paper about a
fire on July 16th in 1890 and you see
there that it says that the uh the wind was favorable
towards the fire it was it was but a few minutes
till it had developed into a raging conflagration and every
building on the east side of the square
numbering some six or seven were destroyed and the cause of
the fire is unknown and there's the
damage well the Andes was the only masonry building on the
block at the time and so it survived uh it
also and it even got picked up in the Atlantic Atlantic
Constitution which I think they took
the story from New Orleans because that's right out of
their page so it was big news with big fire
and so then when they came back in 1891 to do the sandborns
you see the block is completely
cleared they just they there was such a clear spot on the
map they just dropped the key to the map
into that space there and um so that's why the building
matters and then um later on there was
you know renovation work you've seen these pictures just
quick refresher um what's neat about the
building to me one of these things it's one of the only
buildings on the on the square with a
complete set of iron columns I think the scripture building
is maybe the only other one and then
there's one or two columns scattered around um the square
and there's another picture when it was a
movie theater there on the right so it's missing the tabl
ature here and then these um these little
coffers are in here are not presently they must have been
filled in what these little curves this
will inlet inset around the windows is still there this is
the building in I think the 70s it was a
law firm so then you see those coffers already filled in at
the top and then tablature is gone
and then just a little note about painted brick you know if
we had stopped in again this is the
70s the back building was unpainted at the time so this is
on east oak here and then that back
street and also the roof the windows and the roof had you
got a gabled roof there so this is before
the applicant began to clean it up it also had a kind of a
sign tacked on up there that he removed
that and he painted that whole storefront as part of that
first permit and now what happened is
the applicant as he'll tell you he had a big machine rented
with no with no one asking they've
been repainting all of the windows on the barley and board
the texas bank building diagonally across
the street they rented an expensive equipment to do that
work and eric asked me about painting the
front of the building and we told we won't make it to the
landmark committee until the eighth
first we discussed whether we could get it approved and the
staff wanted to have it come before y'all
and so we did um we're bringing it here now but in the
meantime he was worried about having to
re-rent that machine and he's and he had this work done so
the image you see on the right is the
building today okay but uh you know then he's been
completely upfront about the process and so he'll
talk to you more he's going to tell you what's going on in
fact i've got him up next as a
presentation from from eric palito unless you have any
questions of me
i have no questions does anybody else have questions for
roman so just so i'm clear
the pictures i'm sorry oh no i just need to make sure i
need thank you kenneth uh the picture in
the middle or the picture on the right is as it is today
the one on the right this is today this is
today i was done when they worked on it just this weekend
this weekend before this is right before
that and this is before that mural and any uh paint work so
in other words it looked like this
on both sides kind of a dirty old you know down that side
and so they did that mural and also
repainted all that work and then that's where we are today
angie yes hey roman so you said that
if you had you would have approved it or you could have
approved it if we already had something in
place so the historic preservation ordinances that we met
in your neighborhood with and we talked
about all around the city in there we uh we're adjusting
sort of administrative approvals in
there we talk about paint uh and some things in there so i
believe if if you were looking at
painting on a for a certificate of appropriateness it could
be approved by the preservation officer i
believe that's why it's word under the uh what's forth
coming on the so my question on that is paint
versus a mural that's a good question is there a difference
differentiator between the two um
reading in that because i would like to see that as well we
we'll have an opportunity and a big
opportunity we'll have another commute round of community
meetings before the dentin development
code is passed it will it will and it'll go before planning
and zoning it and it'll come here and city
council again so we can adjust that in my mind for me it's
still paint for me i know i may not
you all may not agree with me but as a president in my
world i've seen too many buildings that are
decaying because they have no paint and for me it's no
paint or paint once we get to paint
i don't personally feel that's significant but believe me
we're counting on y'all to make a
decision that you feel appropriate for this amendment i'd
like further discussion on that
one that comes up oh sure okay anybody else have questions
for roman
okay well i kind of have a question and it's still a
procedural question to tag on to angie
what authority do we have on the square since the ordinance
hasn't this i this building is a
designated local landmark so unlike the square being a
national registered district that
it's not wholly protected loophole and this building and a
few others a piece of another
building near on the scripture the scripture but about four
right okay thanks for the
that's why you're seeing it thanks for the clarification
building
any other questions for roman before eric comes up
okay
eric if you'd like to join us come on over
you know the drill yes greetings my name is eric palito uh
1209 piping rock dead in texas
um i appreciate you guys having me and i don't want to be
superfluous a lot of this
uh is a uh slideshow that was seen when we originally did
the work um but i'll just go over
it just to catch you guys up and then uh go through some of
the things that roman was
speaking of and obviously helping myself for any questions
that you guys might have
so the building was built in 1877 um was built by bf pascal
um i'm not sure if you're aware but
the upstairs floor is a cocktail bar called pascal bar
which uh me and my bandmate started
about seven years ago and we named it after him because no
matter what the building was
through time it was always referred to as the pascal
building and it lost that somewhere
along the way so we just wanted to pay homage uh to that um
like roman said not only just
my time serving on this committee i appreciate uh history
and just feel like it gives an identity
to a place when you're able to to tell a story so we
actually have um a picture of the all the
folks that uh helped build some of the buildings on the
square as well as a cool piece out of um
business gazette uh uh with an ad for uh the rs ross grocer
when you walk into pascal um we also
have a big uh picture of the square back in the late 1800s
that up there in the right is that uh ad that i was
referring to
obviously some of these pictures you saw in roman's uh
piece but i just love looking back at at the
different forms that the building has taken on over time
we actually considered uh recalling it plaza the plaza as
well um but we didn't have not yet
um as roman said those columns it was really neat to uh
to see these pictures and uh obviously see that they're
still there and a part of the first
coa was to uh to renovate uh that front like roman said wed
nesday the actual wood facade and doors
will be done but uh the the columns were changed from a a
green that we didn't really love to to
uh to black um and we also did change out the awning to to
put a new one on there as well
um obviously there's a great marriage of of history and art
uh through time especially uh
how that comes to fruition and buildings um originally uh
with the the new deal back in 34
they they put in a portion um of the the uh the budget to
uh include uh art um and i thought that
was a really neat uh aspect to have obviously we have art
and arts program that started several
years back and i know that's been a big piece of our
development especially in downtown um
i believe that it really does promote interaction and civic
participation um we've had a lot of
folks use it as a background to a photo um which has been
really neat i mean i love just seeing
people now look at it as something that they want to be a
part of um it wasn't the prettiest side
of the building before and when we did those renovations
there were a lot of cracks also
that the that we had to to patch up and then obviously put
the paint over it um we have events
all the time that include um all ages and it's really neat
to to see the kids um come out and be
a part of you know the offerings of the of the building
obviously it's uh mainly known as a bar
or venue but we do daytime brunches and such all the time
we have a a christmas show with kids that
we're doing in a couple months and also as a town that
really prides itself in its art program you
know artists can see uh this being utilized um in a
downtown area we're not the only building that
has done something like this so it's really cool to see um
i don't have to tell you this but you
know when you're downtown you know where you are and i just
love that um further with distinctions
um that are in line can really create identity to a place
and i i love that that we've continued
to do that uh downtown with new businesses and just events
and such um also the sustainability
and preservation um you know i kind of think that it really
sends a message you know when you
put value in the building that you're a part of um it says
something but it also i think
keeps people aware that this is something that we want to
keep clean we want to keep it in line we
want to preserve it and sustain it for generations to come
this is just a quick example of some murals
around the world of large format type murals um i can't
remember exactly where i got all these i
think one was in new york another in spain uh but uh but
yeah all different styles and such uh but
i'm sure the uh the same outcome is is achieved this at the
time were a couple uh murals that had
been done in town that were specifically with a historic
building or a historic site um the one
to the left is uh the paterson apatown art center um and
that was two different times that they did
the mural i served when they did one of them and then of
course um across the street at the fire
department um they had uh had that uh monolithic um feature
um honoring uh 9/11
again this this most of this work has been done or is comm
encing now but was approved
unanimously at the time um with the mural um and obviously
the doors and the veneer
and the awning um and some painting window trims
uh
and obviously that was the picture uh that we showed at the
time of the mock-up
i think he did a pretty good job keeping it in line with
what the mock-up was uh the artist's
name he's not here he was here last time um and i i asked
him if he wanted to come back and
he was pretty nervous the first time so he just asked if i
could handle it um but his name's dan
black you might have met him he's he's definitely been uh
around a bunch more regularly as uh
folks have seen his work and um have have used it for their
for their building or or um whatever
piece that they're looking to to bring some life to and he
does that quite well um i know he's done
some pieces at the mall uh most recently so this is
actually a mock-up and then the next one i'll
show you uh one that you actually saw with with uh romans
and the reason why with this is obviously
um on this painting it wraps around and you don't really
see it from the ground level uh that well
the the one inset to the right is kind of uh what what you
can see um when you're down on the ground
but the artist really wanted to and i and i appreciated it
to even if you don't see it um
to keep the the canvas uh continuing or the art piece
continuing and if you did see it whether
you're flying over if you're in the top of the courthouse
you might find um a reveal that's
that's really neat uh to see only from certain uh heights
in the downtown area um
i'm not sure if if i had mentioned um i'm sure i did
originally but the mural is called band on
the run uh you saw the two uh folks on the motorcycle it's
uh it's kind of in a 50s western
um styling uh with the colors that were used if you go to
the back um you see a police officer
with binoculars looking at the couple riding off in the
desert and they're now working their way to
their getaway plane which is located on the south side uh
as roman showed as well this is the the uh
mural uh as it sits today um a little bit of backstory and
i know roman uh alluded to this um
originally when we thought about doing this between myself
and the artist uh and the building owner
um we of course knew that we needed to contact roman and
figure out uh if that could be
administratively proven being i guess an optimist that i am
i i thought that would be the case but
we didn't do any work until i had spoken with him um we had
rented this lift for barley and board
because we had done the work on the texas building and i
talked to the contractor that did that work
and just asked on pricing and if when he planned on
finishing that job and i thought i could kill
two birds with one stone because he finished that project
and was going to have a few more days
until it was scheduled to be picked up lift um so we kind
of put it tentatively on the calendar
and said okay this is when we would do it and let me go
talk to roman also got the artist who does
travel himself and scheduled him down and got it penciled
in and said okay we've got everything set
you know i didn't want to spend the extra money you know i
think around 1500 obviously they have
to deliver that that piece and it also takes up a big chunk
of the square and as you guys probably
have seen with construction such i kind of wanted to be
able to do the work and get it out of there
as soon as possible so roman got back with me and said okay
we probably need to sit down and talk
i'm not sure if this is going to be able to be
administratively proven let's go talk to staff
we did and i said i totally understand i do not mean any
disrespect by commencing work or planning
to do this work without it and then obviously commencing it
um if this isn't a proven if i've
exhausted all options of course i would paint back over it
and go back to the original
that was a proven if that's what we needed to do it was
kind of a risk i understand you know that
but i didn't want it to be any sign of disrespect to the
board or staff for that matter so
we did paint the front originally with the original coa it
was just obviously a blank
canvas if you will and between the artists and myself we
kind of felt like it looked that way it
just looked like it wasn't complete obviously anybody could
think differently and i respect
that and appreciate that it's just something that we
continue to look at and look at and we thought
you know it would really be neat to to continue that on so
again i don't want to beat a dead horse
but that that is why we did it and the heart of it and why
we're coming before you today
thank you so much eric does anybody have questions for eric
angie i do is the mural on the south side
today as well for the airplane wise yes that's already done
yes that part of it even though he
did use the lift because there is roof access it was able
to still do some without the lift and i
don't know if the artist is like completely done with any
like paneling on the back side i honestly
i can't see it over there from the street so i would have
to get up there myself so
um i know he's done with the lift but i he might have a
little bit of like work on that plane to
just you know and was that approved part of the original
project no sorry both the south side
and the west side were not a part of the original so
neither the front on facing the square or the
side so they was south is facing so the east side and the
north side the main mural portion
was a part of the original coa so i'm coming back now with
this front facade and this side facade
yes okay that plane that you saw let me go back so it's the
front and the side that's what i'm
and that's a clarification sorry okay so you're asking for
approval for this and the front correct
what you see in this painting or this yet rendering so the
back isn't done i thought you
haven't seen it i never go down that street the back wasn't
it was part of the original
approved in the original um and we decided to continue it
around to wrap it around and
and this is that portion that i'm coming before you today
roy i have a question so at this point you're here for a co
a but 95 percent of what you're asking
permission to do is already done right that is correct i'm
not sure the exact percentage but this
is just a continuation in addition to what was already
proven okay thank you
i guess what i'm saying is you're asking now for permission
that's kind of like we're going to
confession here so we're gonna ask for we're asking for
forgiveness because we've done
no he he had already put in the the coa for it for the
front mural for painting now but for mural i
don't think i think there that's what i think you know for
yes he had already submitted the coa
and um we didn't get it on to the agenda in time and they
had already scheduled the lift so
eric real i mean eric has always come before the board in a
very timely manner i really feel like
this is just a timing issue where the lift was available he
thought that it would have gone
before the board before then this is not yeah this is not
like a slap on the hand no it kind of that's
not quite what i heard your story say i'm sorry but i think
i was listening when he said that you
came up with this with the artist it did go in motion
quickly and this and this is a retroactive
aspect i appreciate everything you've done for andy's bar i
'm just saying that this board has
gotten out of hand and you know forgiveness is always what
we get after people do what they want
anyway this is nothing personal i mean i think you've done
a beautiful job on the side and things
it's it's the un the unpermitted stuff that i think we
ought to handle a little a little better
angie what was the date of the application for the coa
should be in rebecca it's hard to see on the phone
it was in between it was soon after our last meeting so
that's why we
we could have called a special meeting for but i didn't
think that would
make a lot of sense let's see um your packets are on there
there while they can go online we got it right here you can
see the date yeah i don't see it
was in september at some point here okay so it was probably
so it was recently just wasn't
about three i'm guessing i'm gonna pull it up so it didn't
miss a meeting that i guess my question
is what was the date so okay it was after if we had
squeezed if we could have squeezed it in
helen do you have a question while we're looking yes uh so
i think i heard you say eric that um
you know knowing this is retroactive if indeed it was the
um the the final vote from from this board
that it was not approved you you can um you can find the
resources to to take it back the way it
was of course i mean that that would be our responsibility
um given the situation uh obviously
we would rerent the the lift and paint it back to the color
that was approved um if we had to
thanks for the clarification thank you mary well my
question is if that's the case anyway
you were saving fifteen hundred dollars to do it at the
same time that's at least what you said
earlier in this testimony that it was fifteen hundred
dollars so it's going to cost it would
cost you more than fifteen hundred dollars to change it
just just saying just want to
clarify what i've heard so far yeah it it would obviously
like i said it was a risk so i would
lose that lose more because of this and the time required
and to have a lift out on the square again
for for a given amount of time so just a quick answer i don
't think i have the the original
application in here but it um i mean i can look on my phone
because i sent you i sent it to you
somehow but it was in between i think we had just had
whatever the previous meeting was so
okay it was either hold a special meeting or or prove it or
bring it here so we brought it
i mean i mean a special meeting i don't think that i mean
what qualifies for a special meeting
i mean my time is also valuable and fifteen hundred dollars
was more valuable than
that for it to call a special meeting for so wait a minute
there's something wrong with this
john madam chairman um i was here and approved part of the
group that approved
the painting that originally was put onto the building uh
that was well received by everybody
there and i can not check the minutes but i presume presume
it was a 100 approval i believe it was
basically basically as i see it we have here a case of it
probably would have been approved
it brought in time to do it right we have an option we have
a situation here where the equipment
is available the artist is here uh to replace all that
again would be 1500 roughly plus the artist
and the travel and the time and all that so you're talking
so and we're talking here about a few days
that we didn't get here for a time deadline that is there i
think we're quivering over
dots are we at the discussion portion of this meeting now
yeah i mean we don't have a motion
on the floor so but we are still at the asking questions of
kenneth yes why didn't you go in
back in november for all of it was it just after you yeah
it really was after we had had seen it
um i wish we would have uh obviously i think it it finishes
the the vision and the piece as a true
uh art piece of the whole building and it felt incomplete
at the time with just the mock-up
um we didn't think that and i i think we were wrong at the
time so
it's really interesting mary i mean i love the mural on the
side i really do i think it's fabulous
for being on the square i'm not sure i like the rest of it
i mean as far as historical character
and i think that's where my one you're getting you're
looking for forgiveness after having done
something um but two it really changes the character i
think that's what what i'm addressing here is
it's something that the board should have decided what the
character of the square should look like
and how historical is something there i mean that's my
major concern it has no timing is another i
have a pet peeve about the forgiveness i can get past that
but it's the it's the content of what
the square looks like none of the pictures you have showed
me roman up here look anything like
that and so i realize it's a great art piece and i love the
side i see it almost every day
i think it's so cool but that the appropriateness of this
on the square jerry if if i could just
redirect this for a moment and roman i'm going to need your
help on this because i i didn't bring
my code book with me and i've been trying to look it up
online and it's uh my battery is just about
dead but you know i'm hearing you know a lot of opinions
about what looks nice what's cool what
uh how popular it was what was originally voted on you know
and a lot of things that i think miss
anderson brought up an interesting point is that this board
has a specific charge with respect to
certificates of appropriateness it's not you know matters
of taste it's not matters of timing it's
not matters of any of those things it's it's it's a
standard of appropriateness and you know i think
that maybe we need to reconsider and just as you maybe you
had up there to reiterate what exactly
is the charge of this board to make this determination you
know rather than a an issue of taste or what
you should have done or shouldn't have done or anything
else what is the standard well i agree
robert roy madam chair i move we approve hlc 18-022
weren't you going to get into what the considerations are i
'm waiting for the discussion because we're now
we're talking to eric in a minute right start the
discussion we haven't closed some definite things
to say but i'm waiting for that roy we haven't actually
closed the this portion of the so what
are we doing all right now we'll draw that um motion thank
you roy okay
okay no no no we're still on the open portion of the middle
okay well i'm sorry jerry asked me
well you know we're asking for a certificate of appropri
ateness it's not an historic district
international registered district right which you could
apply the standards to uh however we
don't have a law that requires us to apply the standards
for our national registered district so
often and this can come up with julie glover with the main
street program when she looks at issuing
grants for some of the facade improvements that happen on
the square she goes to this document
and which was in your uh packet last time and it's these
property appearance guidelines adopted in
1997 by the city of den to be used for the approval of
renovations and new construction in the downtown
area uh the so in there um you have the this little
descriptive which i put in that previous
in in 2017 but we had the whole packet in there in 2017 i
can probably pull that up with you but
the key phrasing for me then at the time was that the
renovation of historic advertising painted
directly on building surfaces is encouraged along with the
creation of large-scale murals as a form
of public art and then all wall signs and murals should be
professionally applied or restored that
seemed to be the only on point um part of that property
appearance guidelines adopted for the
city of downtown for the downtown i mean city of denton for
the downtown core area so there's no
overarching historical component of murals as far as what's
approved from a historic standpoint or
from an art standpoint i have never seen any documentation
about you know what murals would
be appropriate and norware mary yeah so you said we're part
of the federal the national registry
and so what are i mean since eventually we hope to be even
further what are their guidelines i mean i
i think we should at least listen to their guidelines the
secretary of interior standard
guidelines regarding paint are very open yeah the standards
would as far as i know don't address
murals so that's it earlier we talked about we talked about
the murals exactly yeah um
the standards about the saving so you know helen i i would
submit to you that paint
can change the historic cat uh character of a building and
if there is no
if there is precedence from an historical standpoint then
then the paint issue would be part of that and
i think if you were to take your document you were just
looking at and you move move further down on
it where it talks about if it's denied it has to be denied
for these reasons you would find in there
that it states um you know is it going to detract from the
historical significance that kind of
thing those are the kind of things think we can look at and
it doesn't matter whether it's paint
or trim or you know brick or anything it's about preserving
history and and so i don't know that it
matters so much what it says about paint specifically that
would be my comment there right i think and
that there is that in in other places in the ordinance i
think it's usually in the districts
where it says a certificate of a purpose this is in our
ordinance um should be approved if it
negatively or adversely affects right um buildings building
buildings in the area
which is a it's objective it's very subjective i don't know
well that's why we're nine people not
one right any more questions for roman and eric
okay eric thank you so much for your presentation and for
your time tonight i know that it's been a
a busy weekend so all right is there anybody else from the
public who would like to speak on this
item seeing none we're going to go ahead and close that
okay
in order to discuss we must have a motion on the board is
that correct
uh there are boards that do have discussion without putting
a motion on the floor first
okay would y'all like to have a discussion first yes okay
it sounds like there's a lot to work out
helen okay um so i i have to say that
if you take into context the square as a whole and all of
the frontage onto the square
you will not find murals on any of the buildings in on that
face you certainly find them on the
side street faces right all around the square and even in
in side streets off the square a couple
of blocks right find it it seems appropriate in those
places because they tend to be sort of more
alleyway aesthetic it was the side of the building there
was always this idea maybe that there would
be another building added on to it and it kind of had that
sort of unappreciated aspect to it that
the murals of denton have really brought life to those
areas and made them into
uh almost almost like destinations of their own for sure i
think it's appropriate there
i i have to say it gives me great pause to put it on the
front of one of the buildings that faces
the um courthouse it it just doesn't uh it doesn't seem to
ring true to everything else we've got
going on on that square signage i've we've got plenty of
signs some of which these days are
getting quite colorful and we've talked about those at
other meetings and and and i think there's that
i think there's some precedence there because of the campus
theater and the other things
that were there you know 50 plus years ago i don't i don't
somebody tell me i'm wrong but i don't
recall any murals being on any buildings and so it gives me
some building fronts building fronts
facades building facades facing the courthouse that's what
i'm talking about specifically i don't
see that from any recollection i have um i think that we
have to tread lightly on our history we've
lost some of our history already on the square um within
this year and um and it happens to be right
down the street from this and and i and i don't think that
we should detract from the history we
still have and so it feels to me just the front the rest of
it i don't think is is detracting but
just that very front facing the courthouse um i think we
should tread lightly on it and keep it
as original as possible and by doing so i think having a
sky scene across it detracts from that
history and that's my that's me i'm off okay angie um i
agree with you and i also think that the
the front of the buildings that when we talk about
restoring we want to look at restoring back to
original as close as we can get and i do think that is
distracting for the character of the
building as far as falling in line with downtown my second
point with that too is um talk about
getting a coa in september and i want to address that for a
moment because um
i don't want to set a precedence for this board that it's
okay to get a coa waiting for a board
approval and so i'm going to go ahead and do it and i think
that could set a precedence for other
people coming before this board um i had been i've had to
wait myself two to three months because of
not having board meetings i'm not having a quorum and so
for someone coming before the board
previously and knowing the schedule um i know it wasn't
done in disrespect but i do think that's
something that has to be addressed that doesn't really set
well with me because of knowing the
board and knowing how the board operates and because i've
also had to be before this board
for people that have flat taken advantage of it and i just
hate to see it go down that road again
but to talk about exactly what is before us that it was
done without an approval and that what is
being asked to be done i do not think that it fits in the
historical character of that building
okay mary i have to agree uh with ellen and angie i think
that it's great to have murals all around
town i mean if you look at decatur they have these great
murals but they're not on the front of the
building they're on the side of the building there are
these great tiles and level land but they're
on the side of the building they're not on the front the
character of the square matters i love
this picture right here and i don't even mind the side that
you can only see probably from
the hamburger place i can't think of the name lsa thanks l
sa burgers right i don't that doesn't
bother me but this bothers me things you can see straight
away it changes the character i think of
the square and yes i do have a i have a pet peeve of
seeking forgiveness but that's not coloring my
vision of what i see here what i see here doesn't fit the
square the the other picture of it and
you know if we're here i mean we can't make things original
to the 1800s but we can kind of keep it
in a historic sense you know it's not like i should have to
keep my lead pipes in my house
but this is aesthetic it's not you know health wise to do
so and i love the side i see it all
the time and i think it's great i just don't know that it
fits on the front i might add one more
comment helen yes you may uh and that is we we might set a
precedent if we do move forward
with uh having a mural on the front of this building i
think if we had this replicated around
the square it would certainly start to really detract and
once you've done it once yeah maybe
it'd be easier to say yeah we can do it so just one more
comment okay kenneth um i agree with
everybody i love the mural the side of it i think it fits
in really really nice but it looks too
in my opinion almost cartoonishy on the front of the
building and it takes away from the presence
of the square um i'm just going to add my own two cents i
love it i do i i mean i live right next to
it i love it i see it every day i watched it go up i was
surprised to see it go up when it did because
i had just spread through my agenda but um i i love it i
love the continuation of the art project
and when i look at the um the guidelines for downtown where
it talks about um all
you know wall signs and murals one of the things it says is
the renovation of historic advertising
is encouraged you know that along with creation of large-
scale murals as a form of public art and i
i love seeing public art in denton it's one of the things
that i think makes this really unique
and while i i don't love that i did watch it go up this
weekend when i knew it was on my agenda for
tonight i did understand because i i knew that the rent the
the lift had been rented out and
as frustrating as that can be and i don't want to set a
precedent for the do it and then the hand
slap or the asking for forgiveness after absolutely not and
and we've really fought against a lot of
that in the last several years on this board um i think
that paint doesn't change a structure
and we have some pretty out there paint on the the square
and i might be the only person who
who has this opinion on this board but i kind of love it on
the front i love that it's a full
wrap around it's an art piece and i think it also brings
back um i think it highlights preservation
in a lot of ways so but that's my two cents and we don't
all have to agree and that's why there's
a board roy and john do you have anything that you would
like to add or any anything that you'd
like to say while we're still in this discussion well john
i'm trying to digest everything it was
said here take your time i'm i'm torn because i have a very
strong belief that what is yours is
yours and you should be able to do what you want with it i
have a very strong belief of that i also
realize there are rules and regulations and i can see the
point of view that it could be a
bad thing but i don't know what other word terminology do
distraction
destroying historical looks and so forth like i understand
all that so i'm torn between those two
uh i i really wish that we were able to have all these
discussion
before that paint was put on that building i agree that
bothers me tremendously unfortunately
that's just not where unfortunately we don't have that uh i
do not like to see a property owner or
not property owner this investing money to do uh improve
the square we're all agreeing that side is
very nice we probably have the same opinion on the other
side and on the back um
so but i also realize that while this looks really nice
what do we do with the next building that comes in and puts
a mural on the front side
with mickey mouse on i don't know what disney would make
you take it down
that's what i'm that's the turmoil i have right now i
understand you know i mean i i look at this
and and i do you know i'm not into exceptions i really
believe that things belong in ordinances
and to have strong ordinances however there's not anything
in place that says that we can't
and again if we're looking at added as a large art as a
large scale art piece which there aren't
very many buildings that could do this on all four sides um
i think it's you know an ode to the time
that we're in as well a lot of what we see on the square um
hearkens back to the many changes that
have evolved over time and i think one of the things that
they've done here is that they've
made a change and it it is a part of our current evolution
but it's non-permanent you know it can
be painted over and so i think it's a it's a tough decision
that we've got before us tonight
roy do you have anything to add just a couple things first
of all john and i share a strong
belief that people that own the property should have to say
so i i bristle a bit because i don't
think it's in i remit whether i like it or not i mean we
should follow our guidelines right um i'm
a little steamed that they got the cart ahead of the horse
but and then my personal belief is once
you paint the bricks i don't care if you make it i'd rather
have the normal bricks i'm a big fan of
that but i'm not sure that's i remit either that's it thank
you okay can i have something
just looking at the downtown property appearance guidelines
when it comes under color on section
on page 34 it says traditional or light or muted colors
with pastel or earth tone hues are generally
preferred the use of very bright fluorescence or day glow
colors is discouraged i saw that but it's
right next to the opera house so i don't know that that has
been followed for a long time
and if you look at lsa it's got some pretty bright colors
happening on it
the opera house though was pastel which he said was
approved was it not was that a suggested
pastel that hue of purple is pastel to me it is you haven't
seen purple have you haven't seen the
purple hat ladies running around um but again thank you for
pointing that out andy i think that we
have to look at what this board is for and it's for the
historic preservation conservation and for
i i go back to if we're going to restore to make it look
like it did then it doesn't have anything
to do with likes or dislikes and if you like it or not and
i'm going to tell you i'm my husband
is has an artist has a master's in art we do art
photography and we have used this side of the
building for our art photography so i love art i'm not
against that at all but i also believe
there's times that you put too much art and it takes away
from this and i do believe in this
situation it takes away from the character of the building
and i also believe it takes away from the
mural on the other side that we all like um so that's that
's my breast of my two cents okay john
you had a clarification well okay i just want to clarify
for me there is no regulation on our
in the city here that the front of the building can be
painted
that says that it can or that it can't that you can't paint
a mural on it
i mean the only thing it says about murals is that they are
encouraged as a form of public art
specifically can i clarify one thing i know i was just
asking ron this the city of dentin property
appearance guidelines is not a regulation as i understand
it right it was a proposed uh standard
that that that staff came up with to my knowledge that the
the city council has not approved it
you know considered it's not established by or it's not a
regulation it doesn't it's not intended to
bear upon this commission's decision making uh you know as
in carrying out its obligations
under the dentin code uh you know to the extent that it
might be instructive perhaps and i don't
know roman correct me if you have uh information to the
contrary but you know i was just asking
rod just a minute ago is why would this bear upon the
charge of of this commission uh it's
as i understand it the the charge of the commission is to
look at historical appropriateness
just to add to that um to what jerry spoke of these are
guidelines and you know they're they're
meant to help um guide development but standards they're
they're not so i mean if they were
standards they would be in the development code or part of
the development code right and i i mean i
i bear back to you know what is our mission and i think i
have to agree the mission is to
preserve history maybe not history from you know 1890 but
maybe history from the past
hundred years or so and i the only thing i've seen as a
mural that's somewhat historic and i drive
down oak a lot is the um scripture building used to have
used to i say it's been painted by the way
the sign for what was the sign for do you remember what it
was for it was an old coca-cola
yeah that's right exactly it was an old coca-cola sign but
they took that out yeah they
sam blasted it off and scott brown has the painting there
now and i look at that as advertising if we
look back at what they said advertising i don't believe
that this mural is advertising anything
no so if we look at that and those kind of guidelines it's
not for advertising it's all
art and but it might might you know the reason i'm not i
don't really not in favor it's not
because it's art or whether i like it or not i love blue i
love white so that's not the issue
the issue is it doesn't really fit most of downtown okay
john madam chairman am i i'm
hearing all this and basically what i'm gathering is that
everybody is saying that one side looks
okay the back side's okay the other side's okay but it's
the front right the facade okay
roan when you're done can you put a picture that front yes
of course
you can you would like to have this one
or you got that big one that's a good one thank you that
helps that's exactly what we need to see
or even the older pictures i wouldn't mind seeing some of
the older ones
rolling before this are rather recent in the past year or
two at tops shall we see history again
well we've got like this kind of here yeah there's the ugly
side 70s where they filled in the part of
at the top that was caves thrift next door and then what
about two number 14 why don't you show us 14
um that's the back side of the building oh you're right i
couldn't tell when the small thumbprint
right and the i think you mean number 12 yes exactly i do
mean 12 sorry yeah there's the kind of
so one of the big differences that we notice is what you
pointed out earlier roman is that the
brickwork up at the top has been filled in um you know now
we have the curved windows but they're
kind of a flatter panel um it looks like is that tile work
yes behind the plaza sign
can't tell can you yeah it it looks like you can see the
tile right here right there's the tile work
um and then it had of course the the top at the the thing
on the top
yeah that little things the black things to be i don't know
what you call it i'm not i'm sure it's
like bangs helen could tell us what it's called oh sorry
the black thing at the top we don't know
what it's called the entablature thank you thank you it was
probably pressed 10 ruman already said
it once so he takes credit on me so when we look at today's
i mean i don't know that i could call
it a restoration back to this because parts of it are
filled in and things like that
but probably it didn't have a mural on it that that looks
so different than everything else on
on the square right i mean i guess that that's that's the
point that that i keep coming back
to is it looks so different from anything other picture on
the square and you know i've looked
at a lot of the things that have been down in the county
courthouse and looked at pictures
from all around the square i'm very interested in this so i
take a look at a lot of pictures
and i've never seen anything looks even close to that you
know and that's that's the problem
i do like murals and stuff but maybe it's not right for
there
i don't and just to address john's concern about property
rights yes but you know what you were
buying when you moved into historic areas that you were
buying the historic you know look alike
it's not like we sprung this upon you you knew it existed i
mean i know i live in a historic
district i have to live with that not that a lot of my
neighbors do by the way they change their
windows put up fences and nobody seems to do more than oh
maybe you shouldn't have done that
here's the here's the
dug around here to find this section that deals with
specifically certificates of
appropriates and not within a historic district so it does
tell us here standard procedure i think
there's a little review in here criteria for denial i think
uh were you looking at this
that this criteria i just wanted to point it out there's a
criteria for denial now this is in our
ordinance so it says criteria for denial of a certificate
of appropriateness one must be denied
if there is a final decision that the proposed work will
have an adverse effect on one the
external architectural features of the historic landmark
two the ex the external architectural
features of the properties in the block or in the historic
district as a whole or three
the future preservation maintenance and use of the historic
landmark and the district
and you see there below f that's the process we've followed
by him submitting an amendment
asking for an amendment to a certificate of appropriateness
and that's that line f there but
so that's kind of the most on point part of our historic
ordinance that i believe exists
because this it doesn't pertain to a specific district
and the national registered district that we have had um
has never been legally recognized by our
local ordinance and um but there are those things called
the standards or this that which are you
know i say secretary of interior standards for historic
preservation but they don't address
um they'll they actually specifically address if you have
bare brick don't paint the brick
very it's a very conservative approach it's simply uh
repair rather than replace and and
keep original material um it's kind of the way that don't
get into this part of it
don't have a question on denial of things when i came
before the board i was putting up a new i
wanted to put up a new building and one of the things is i
got mine conditionally because you
could choose what i put on my my board i'm a little i'm a
little confused a little bit fuzzy
how you can say oh you had to use wood you can't use hardy
board which that changed but anyway
it seems to me wasn't this unpainted it wasn't it unpainted
previously i mean the pictures we
see historically were unpainted i don't know when it got
painted it got painted well before so
if we go here this is this is painted i believe 60 70s yeah
because they put the um they covered
up the the brickwork there probably painted stucco up here
if we got to go recent we could just i'm pretty sure with
google street view will give us some
so while you're trying to find that roman i appreciate you
pulling up the um the was that
from the ordinance what was that from our ordinance okay so
the argument i was trying to make although
i wasn't as eloquent as our ordinance was that uh my
opinion is that a mural on the front facade
of this building does adversely affect the external
architectural features of the
landmark that we're ready for a motion that would that
would be it i'm i would be ready for a motion
yes i will happily do that i'll make a i'll make a motion
that we deny the certificate of
appropriateness for the amendment for the mural that was
made by angie angie i would like to ask
you a question are you specific are you saying for the
entire mural or for the facade specifically
i'm saying for what has been asked of this certificate of
appropriateness here for the
facade and that backside if that is that so the facade in
this and the south side the south side
not what's already been done no only what has come before
the board today okay but the south side has
already been painted as well correct without a coa okay so
you my motion is for denial okay
did anybody second it i'm so sorry i wouldn't i would amend
that my motion would be to deny the
the west face only and allow the south okay we yeah we've
got a motion yeah we got a motion
that's pending here you can offer and we don't have a
second yet uh and uh you you could offer
a friendly amendment but we we do need to see if we get a
second to this motion i'll second the
second motion from angie which one are you second kenneth
is seconding angie's original motion
correct yes okay helen is going to offer a friendly
amendment i would like to offer a friendly
amendment to uh to that motion which would be for the uh to
deny the west face but approve the south
face i'll second that yeah can we say something john is
seconding that motion so now we would
have a vote on the friendly amendment on whether to modify
the original motion by the friendly
amendment okay all those in favor of helen's friendly
amendment that was seconded by john
all those in favor of helen's friendly amendment seconded
by john please say aye
aye you should do a show of hands please do a show of hands
three four five there are five
in favor of the friendly amendment okay so now you vote on
it as amended so we can vote on it
do i not have to ask how many denied well you you do okay
all those opposed please say nay
with a hand raised so angie and kenneth right okay so there
are two who opposed
okay can i ask a question yes you may can we now talk about
that one since it's
yeah because the motion is pending on the floor is the
motion as amended okay so so my question
of the board is what difference is it if it's on the front
side of it facing the square or if it's
on the side if you can still see it from the areas on the
square that we were just talking about
because if you're
one day up in wells fargo if you're at lsa up in the courth
ouse you're still going to see that and
that's still a main portion of the square john uh to carry
your motion to carry your idea further
then you have to take it off on the oak side because you
can see it from the oak side too
so what you're saying is strip the bill no sir i'm not
because we already have voted and approved
that side of it and and i personally was in favor of it at
that point but that's still not facing
in in my mind not facing the front of the square okay got
it okay i know i got it so i would have a
i would have an answer to you on that one which would be
that there is in fact a precedent for
murals up on a second level we have that at lsa burger um
we we had it back 30 50 years ago on
the side of the hardware store evers hardware store as well
you can see it but it is above and
it is on the side of the building actually the opera house
also has the mural that does face
i mean it is facing the court the courthouse so i have a
question it is so those that you said
like that said evers was that advertising yes or was it a
mural it was an advertising there's
an advertising mural and then there's art mural and i don't
think we're talking about the same
thing advertising is just that whether it's a neon light
whether it's painting there's a to me
there's a difference there i'd agree with you but we do are
also have it at la uh la burger lsa burger
where it is a mural up on that patio area okay is there
really i never noticed it yes but that's
inside of the patio no no it's outside really i don't even
know i think i can't yes i'm sure
because there's the wall of murals on the interior and then
there's the big flag on the exterior
i'll show you yeah google google earth yeah exactly eric
did you have a question
okay man so you're keeping track of this right i'm so clear
he's doing a good job okay
okay so what we currently have on the floor in motion is
while we're bringing this up so there's
the evers heart see there's the the star there it is but
that's inside of the no i'm talking about
the star that's i'm looking up top what are you looking at
up top and then the mural yeah
and even on the closer side you got a bigger star yes you
see where this texas that's like a texas
flag running along the side there where did i just it's
obscure but this is going to be a bit obscure
as well it's it's really above the roof you're almost going
to have to get a drone to see it
unless you're in that right it kind of like the uh who's
the the jackson law office that's got the
oh yeah yeah yeah jackson hagen who's got the big painted
sign which is i guess advertising but you
really don't notice it because it's up on that above
portion that is a wall sign right sign but
it's also it's also muted i think the other reason you don
't notice is it's more muted it's black on
a dark tan or something so it just blends you know i don't
see it i just but so okay so kenneth you
had a question about the did you have a question or did you
just want clarification on this is what
that mural looks like i just want clarification okay okay
so the motion that we have in motion
right now on the floor is to deny the coa with the friendly
amendment
um that we allow the south side to remain painted so we are
only asking for removal of the
the facade is really where we're at right now okay all
right so are we ready to take a vote on it
yes what it bothers me is we didn't actually discuss the
amendment i guess kenneth didn't
get a chance to speak more until after we voted on the
amendment so that's gone it's passed
it's passed okay we're moving forward all right all those
in favor please raise your hand and say
aye aye one two three four six seven seven in favor of all
those opposed please say nay
none opposed
so the motion passes
okay technically you had a motion to deny that was amended
so you don't have a motion to approve
the side yet okay so now we have to make a motion to
approve the side is that what you're saying
yes because we denied because the motion was a motion to
deny and now we have to have qualified
so really you need to have you need to vote on whether to
approve a mural that's limited to the
southern facade okay i motion to uh approve this motion to
vote to approve the mural on the south
face of andy's bar thank you for your motion helen
hold on does anybody second i will second it but i do have
a question
okay can i don't know if i'm can i okay yes you can ask a
question
if that side on the other person approved the back is
already approved correct the back was
approved last november thank you john for seconding the
motion clarification yes yes exactly yes
okay so we now have a motion for approval for the any
further discussion
okay are we ready all those in favor of helen's approval
please say aye with a raise of hand
aye one two three four all of the above
all of those opposed please say nay and with a raise of
your hand
three nays the eyes have it
by a narrow margin very narrow so the motion is approved by
four and denied by three
okay here we go i feel like i need to take a deep breath
and let's go on to the next agenda item we need to receive
a report hold a discussion and give
a staff direction regarding the update to the historic
preservation plan and hear a presentation
from the Lakota group eric thank you so much for your
presence here tonight i really appreciate
your work on the square okay we like eric we do he does he
does a really good job
while we're doing that can i ask a like a point of order
again it's a question about the procedure
because we denied the coa should we not have approved it
with changes because when we denied
that didn't they need to go get a new one and come back
that's why i said no because once you
denied a coa it's gone from your agenda and so what we
really probably should have done is approved
it with modifications that that's the reason i said no is
because i don't think you can do what
we just did but i like i'm not upset with the result at all
that's a good point but so that was
my question yeah and the the problem was we had we had that
motion to deny get amended and and so
it complicated the situation and i i don't know you you
raise a good point i think that uh that
that that technically uh it makes a lot of sense but you
know how you still have the unresolved
issue of the southern facade was never approved and so from
a pragmatic standpoint southern
application well i'm willing to let i just like in the
future we might want to just think about
running at it the other way now so that it's clear and
there's no fans or buzz can we not just say
let us have a a second motion is a clarification to approve
well and
and i think one of the things that we've really worked on
in the last several years is trying to
work with um owners and operators as much as possible so
that things can move forward
but um so i'm really glad that we were at least came to a
resolve because yes a denial does mean
that you have to resubmit and then there's a time stamp so
but don't we need to go back and do what
Roy said which is deny with well i kind of harken back to
uh you know henry robert who
came up with the rules they are they are rules of order
more than rules of procedure uh they are
designed to get work done to resolve things pragmatically
they're they're not really intended to
stop things from from happening if there's a pragmatic
result i i think that you did maintain
order in in your proceedings uh you you you dealt with the
situation as it arose which
was awkward because of the amendment and uh and so i i
think you came to a determination that is
understandable and uh agreeable but uh you know is there a
better way to do it yeah i mean when
richard hayes presented uh on parliamentary rules to the
city council he said i've never once seen
a uh you know any kind of uh board meeting where you could
you know take shots at it and say yeah
you could have done it better some other way uh but but the
point is did you get the work done
that you needed to do and and maintain order and and uh get
business done i i think that you
accomplished your purpose even if you know you you could uh
you you could point and and find
procedural errors if you really wanted to look but i i
think you came to a decision that can be followed
just double checking that we don't have to revisit this
again we do know okay all right
uh-huh oh i've already read it we need to yes please let's
begin okay sorry i read it before
well i just have the pleasure and the honor to introduce to
you uh some gentlemen from the
lacoda group nick and siraj um who have been uh engaged to
work to help you guys and me and our
department uh create a new or update the 1986 historic
preservation plan for the city of denton
they have a little presentation they'd like to share with
you and this is just an introduction
tonight just just um letting you know that who they are and
then we can take any uh have any
discussion that you guys want to have um and i'll pick them
up and so with no further ado i've got
nick and siraj right here if that's all right with you what
what you knew that's what it was
so we're just giving some direction there's nothing to be
made emotion on okay
thanks roman commission welcome thank you um my name is
nick callow jeresis um i'm with the
lacoda group i have a long last greek name so if you want
to know how to spell i can give you my
business card later um it's a pleasure to be here to uh
work with you on this historic preservation
plan i have my colleague siraj asfahani with me um here
today uh we flew in this morning so actually
we can spend a couple days here in the community do field
work as we start this planning process
so um it's great to be here i have a very short
presentation i know that's probably something
you're going to appreciate after the discussion you just
had um and being a former preservation
commissioner myself i understand completely um how the
decision making can happen um and i want to
give you a very short uh presentation about what the
historic preservation plan is about
as roman said this is really a uh an update to your
previous historic preservation plan
and um like any community when you have a comprehensive
plan or a downtown plan or a
neighborhood plan communities have historic preservation
plans because basically you want
we want to look at the future of historic preservation in a
community and so we want
to take a look at what's happened over the last 20 30 years
update the plan and then um really
integrate that plan and all the other development policies
that the city has uh so that's what the
um the real basic um objective of the historic preservation
plan is what we'll talk uh to you
today about is basically the work plan as we go forward is
is basically going to be probably a
little less than a year process to develop the plan and to
tell you a little bit more about who
we are at the Lakota group as we go forward and um as i've
said uh really to talk about what a
preservation plan is about it really kind of involves four
major things this is kind of the
big broad areas that we'll be looking at over the next few
months um the first thing um is
surveying registration it's basically looking at what you
've surveyed in your community what
are some areas that you need to look at and then what our
future national register districts or
local districts or even conservation districts so we'll be
taking a look at that aspect uh we are
looking at economic development or what we call historic
preservation based community development
and we look at how do we integrate historic preservation
when it comes to revitalizing or
maintaining the vibrancy of your downtown other commercial
areas your residential areas so we'll
be looking at economic development incentives and
regulatory tools as part of that um the third part
is city program administration we'll be taking a look at
how the city manages the historic
preservation program we're looking at how the commission
operates um staffing um and things
like that so that's a very important key uh i know that you
have been updating your ordinances and
codes we're not going to be taking a heavy look at that but
we'll be taking a look at where areas
where you can improve um design guidelines and things like
that and then last but not least it's
it's also about advocacy and education how do we promote
the benefits of historic preservation
because not everybody knows what we know as a commission
yes what are the benefits of
preservation so we have to think about how do we promote
that how do we educate the citizens of
denton um and how do we get them involved in the
preservation movement here locally so we'll be
looking at that uh very closely so all these four parts
really constitute what we call a comprehensive
community preservation program so we have all four of these
parts working well you're doing good it's
you know it's a comprehensive program so that's why we're
taking a look at it excellent um just
talk about the work plan going forward um there's really
going to be two basic phases to this
process the first phase is what we call the state of the
city and uh saraj and i and several other
people are going to be coming here to the community quite
often to really take a look at
your historic districts um your downtown other areas and
neighborhoods and um we're going to
be taking a look at where there are future districts um but
there are a lot of other things that we'll
be doing uh we'll be taking undertaking an active
stakeholder engagement program so we want to find
out from the citizens of of denton what they want to see in
preservation going forward so we are
going to be talking to the community quite often during
this process um as i said saraja and i
are here for the next couple of days hopefully it's not
going to rain on us tomorrow but that's what
they're projecting so hopefully we can get a lot of
photography in uh but we are going to be doing
a sort of a reconnaissance survey uh we've already had
discussion with uh roman today about where some
areas we should be taking a look at uh we'll be doing
mapping and analysis and i'll talk about
that in a moment there'll be one community workshop that
will hold probably january january would be a
good time for us to escape chicago so um so we're thinking
that would be a good month uh but we'll
be here to to have a general community input session about
preservation we'll also be doing
an online survey for the community and then by march 2019
we will have a state of the city report
which is kind of the summary of the first phase um and then
the analysis um you know we're looking
at a lot of different things we're also looking at historic
contexts mainly as we look back in
the past in denton what are the contexts the historical
forces the people the built environments
that we haven't looked at before in the community um we've
uh over the last few years working with
communities and preservation plans one of the things they
always ask us are there groups are
there people that we haven't really looked at um so you
know for instance we said this during our
interview you know what about the hispanic and african-amer
ican communities here in denton have
they been looked at what are the built resources associated
with these groups that should be
considered so um so those those are just some of the things
that we'll be taking a look at so we'll
take a good um long depth look at your historic context and
what made denton denton basically
the other part of the analysis is we'll be taking a look at
a lot of different policy contexts
we'll be taking a look at all these things i'm not going to
get into them in any great detail but we
are looking at tourism we'll be looking at um you know your
building codes what incentives are out
there for historic preservation and what needs to be
developed um we are also looking at sustainability
how does preservation play a fundamental role in
sustainability in the community
and i'll talk about that no more so these are just some of
the things that we'll be looking at
during the state of the city process um as part of our
approach at locota we always believe that a
strong community preservation program has to have strong
partnerships it's not only just the
municipality that is going to be involved in uh
preservation but who are the other entities we
need to bring on board that will work with us as partners
in promoting preservation so these are
just some of the groups that we'll be taking a look at you
know obviously if there's civic and
neighborhood associations universities and schools um the
community development entities and um your
tourism program so we'll be taking a look at how we build a
stronger organization partnership going
forward and then we're going to be you know doing a lot of
different cool analysis because we like
to do a lot of data crunching at locota and we'll be doing
a lot of mapping one thing one thing that
we found interesting in your comprehensive plan that you've
been working on is there was there's
really a strong discussion in your comprehensive plan about
community character and maintaining
that community character but the comprehensive plan didn't
tell you where community character
happens in denton and so we're going to do that in the
preservation plan where are those areas in
the community that have high character i show you a map
from a plan that we're wrapping up in recene
wisconsin where they asked us to map where the high
character areas are and where there's potential
for adaptive use where there's potential for preservation
so we're going to just map those
areas out for you because those may be areas that we may
want to take a look at closely
whether they're historic districts or conservation
districts or areas where we have to take you know
take some measures to protect that character and then the
the second phase is really preparing the
preservation plan so from april to july 2019 we'll be
writing the draft plan we'll have another
community open house we'll present that planning and to
gain additional community feedback we'll
have consultation with the city and the commission and then
we'll develop the final plan so we're
looking at july 2019 to have that happen and then the
contents of the preservation plan
you know basically this is kind of giving you a sneak peek
of what we think could be in the
in the plan but one is to have an executive summary an
introduction the historic preservation plan
will be the first part of the plan and then implementation
will be important key and then
we'll have a big description about your historic resources
here in the community
and then we'll be taking a look at all your other city
planning and programs that have some
aspects or some relationship to historic preservation and
last but not least we'll
have a chapter on community engagement and summarizing what
the community told us during
this process and i'll let saraj do the next couple of
slides and we'll wrap up
so community engagement is the process of relationship
building with the community
specifically in a community planning process we do
community engagement in four phases we start
with informing we inform the community about the plan
through a project website and a project brand
and through social media where we connect with different
organizations and civic groups and then
after that we start our listening phase where we do
listening in two different ways first
stakeholder interviews stakeholders are particularly a
group of a specific group of people that have a
unique relationship with the city of denton and we need to
hear their voice while that is a very
specific group we always have surveys open to the public
and that's how we hear their feedback
and then we also hear the feedback of the community when we
engage with them in workshops
so workshops can happen in two different ways either
community open house where we set a date
and people come to us or we surprise people by going to pop
up and we bring the plan with us and
find the people and talk to them about it last but not
least we empower this community engagement
process with the steering committee the steering committee
are the group that basically help us do
all the previous engagement engagement of pieces and the
landmark commission and with the steering
committee they're going to be very engaged in the process
and they're going to be helping us develop
the plan and we're going to check in with them on several
milestones and make sure that they
are working hand in hand with us that being said we are not
worried about diehard preservationists
they're going to be there every single meeting they're not
going to miss an opportunity what
we're worried about are underrepresented groups
traditionally underrepresented in the planning
process and we have learned that in every community there's
a group of underrepresented
and we need to find ways to cross those barriers of
participation that they have so some of them
might be millennials seniors communities of color college
students and we've over time learned that
we need to find out what those challenges are target them
and find the best strategies in order
to across those barriers and we're going to work with you
and different community groups in order
to reach out to them and get them engaged with that oh yeah
and so this this plan or this community
engagement plan specifically it's a great looking mural
where's this mural at again okay so
we're here to build on previous efforts and through your
strategic plan we heard a lot about
a little campaign that said we love denton and we want to
keep that campaign happening and that's
going to be our tagline moving forward into this
preservation plan
okay just to wrap up we have a couple more slides
just to give you a preview our preservation plans are not
text they we pride on putting a
lot of graphics and images in them so that they're nice to
look at it's a document you
would want to read it's something that we want the public
to read and other stakeholders so
it's going to be a very visual document so just to give you
a preview on that and then last but
not least i just wanted to give you an overview if the work
the lacoda group we're based in
chicago illinois we do preservation planning around the
country but for this assignment we've
brought two sub consultants on that will be working with us
one is the clue group it's called the
community land use and economics group they're actually
based in philadelphia and they're going
to kind of help us on the economic development end because
we feel that that's an important thing
here in denton is to look at incentives and how do we
integrate preservation and economic
development so they'll be helping us on this project and
then the second firm is mosley
architects they're based in baltimore and tom weibull is a
principal there he's going to help us
on sustainability and sustainable design how do we
integrate preservation into sustainability and
he's an expert on that so we'll be taking a look at your
design guidelines and seeing how sustainable
sustainable design can be integrated with preservation so
so that's going to be the
team you'll be seeing the josh bloom and tom a couple times
during this process you'll see
siraj and i and a few others throughout the course of this
project over the next year
so that's it thank you so much this looks fantastic do we
have any questions
i have just a just a couple i just made a couple notes as
your slides i'd looked at them before so
they are very graphically very nice i like this so you and
i'll just give you the through how did
you how what is the steering committee um how do you choose
your stakeholders how are you doing the
selection processes for many of these things well i believe
the uh you probably should have been more
clear on the disturbing committee is going to be the
commission i see pretty much is that correct
i i just wonder to this and the stakeholders and stuff
withhold judgment i believe that we've got to get asked uh
confirmed that that's okay with city
council we're moving in the direction that either the landm
ack commission or in in total or if we're
given the authority we could probably choose less people
five or seven of you all or something like
that for a committee yeah okay i'm sure just want to just
add to that that the code group is
also going to be presenting to city council uh tomorrow
afternoon that's actually is that not
true yeah it's postponed for a little bit but it's a
problem so we haven't got that confirmation yet
any other questions okay
helen um what sort of data are you going to be collecting
well um let's see uh well we're going to be looking at
everything that's been done before
all your survey work uh your previous preservation plans
your national register nominations your
local nominations we'll be taking a look at all of that we
'll be reviewing all your other community
plans that are relevant including your comprehensive plan
other plans so we'll be taking a look at all
those things your economic development programs um we are
going to be looking at a variety of gis
data they'll help us do some of the analysis such as
character areas um so we we already have that
in house at lacoda for our gis information so that's just
that's basically what we'll be looking at
in the first few months it's just taking a look at all that
information so what about field work
then what are you gathering in your field work well for the
next couple of days we're primarily
doing our field work the next couple of days we're first
going to be looking at all your
all your districts uh we looked at the downtown today uh we
talked with uh roman this afternoon
about some key areas that could be future historic
districts um areas that are of concern um
i think we are you know one of the things that has been
very interesting the last few years um
doing preservation plans is you know neighborhoods that
were developed in the 50s and 60s are now
historic right you know so we'll be taking a look at a lot
of those post-world war two um
areas but we are also looking at you know areas that
historically had you know your african
american population uh your spanish population so we'll be
taking a look at those so uh so we
talked with roman today and he gave us a good um a good uh
lay of the land and we'll be talking
with him tomorrow a little bit more we'll also be looking
at significant architects and people
you know that are that are important to the community are
there interviews with the community
yes um that's probably something we probably should have
made a little bit more um explicit
in our presentation we are coming back in december tent
atively for the uh probably the first first or
second week in december we haven't pinned down the exact
dates we'll be working with roman the next
few weeks on setting up stakeholder interviews so we'll be
coming back for two and a half days to
do a series of stakeholder interviews and i'm bringing the
entire team to the stakeholder
interview so we can talk to a wide variety cross section of
the community are there any surveys
yes there'll be at least one survey um we'll do that survey
probably around the same time when
we do the open house and it's probably going to be in mid
january and the survey it's you know it
will be internet based um and then we'll you know we'll
work with roman in the city to try to
publicize it as much as possible but there'll be at least
one survey sometimes we do two surveys
once the draft plan is done you know to see if there's a
need to do a second one okay so so
that's full community input all citizens sort of survey yes
very good thank you any other questions
okay thank you so much for your time all right thank you
look forward to working with you yes
okay
okay there's no motion to be made for that agenda item so
we can actually go ahead and move on to
agenda item e receive a report hold a discussion and select
a historic property of the month
the fun part i forgot we had that yay
okay in your packet you had three houses to choose from but
now you have two i couldn't get
confirmation from one of the owners that i could use their
property for this so i'm bringing back
to you two homes at one at 606 robert street that you saw
last time this was designed by
roland laney who was a local architect here who did a lot
of work and didn't and built around 1950
and this is just to the west of the bell avenue still
conservation district soon to be historic
district this is a mid-century modern house they're
actually undergoing some extensive
let's see work in the back they're putting in a swimming
pool and a lot of things but they brought
in the work looks really good and i've had the pleasure of
walking through this house it was
like a mid-century modern museum perfectly intact all the
wood detailing i hope we get an opportunity
sometime to to visit it together then down below is 1003
west oak built in 1910 out on on the
out on west oak and this is just another home you've seen
this before but we thought we could
bring one back and this had been before you three times but
not three consecutive times so
just asking for approval to keep our great program going
excellent
all right so we're voting on the top and the bottom so we
've got b and c there's no discussion
necessary you have to choose either b or c you're going to
pick one i'm going to ask you to raise
your hand in just a moment i'm going to give you a moment
to think about it really weigh your options
okay here we go if you would like to vote for b as the
historic property of the month please
raise your hand okay if you would like to vote for c as the
historic property of the month please
raise your hand five okay stuff the ballot box with us i
know i think we've got some uh we've
got some representation from the neighborhood over here
just across the street okay so
but we live across the street from this okay so uh five to
two um and the
1003 west oak took the vote thank you roman for another
exciting round of historic property of the
month i'd like to give a shout out to mid-century mods oh i
think yes especially when they're not
already in they need to go on tour and then they might get
see yeah yeah
we got another couple more items yet okay do i have to make
a real motion for that no we're good
all right project matrix let's take a look
thank you guys see you tomorrow thank you so much
we've got some to be determined dates in here and not a lot
of changes from the last time you've
seen this um if you want to add anything to it everything's
sort of in the works sure
okay if anybody has something to add please let me know
roy well i have can i ask a general question absolutely
okay so eric was here and we denied
him and so theoretically he has to go away and take the
paint off the front of the building
yes how long before he starts getting fined
how much is the fine 500 a day i don't um there's obviously
going to be a follow-up with
mr palito we'll follow up with him set a timeline typically
we will give the person resident or
property owner adequate time to remediate the issue so as
far as i find i don't think we're
gonna enter that yet but we'll definitely follow up with
the with mr eric palito thank you
i'll add to that that there is an appeals process so i don
't know which way to go
can i ask a question to that yes angie so with an appeal
process since he did the work before he
ever got a certificate of appropriateness how can he be
able to go and appeal to that and i do believe
there should be a citation given um because he did do it
without unless he was directed by staff to
go ahead i think that um that is an order because it was
done before he came before the board
i see ron writing things down so he's we you know we have i
just want i just want to make sure
posting though uh you know just from a technical standpoint
the that the posting was to consider
approving a certificate of appropriateness we're getting
into enforcement areas that
are not even necessarily uh you know part of this but it's
it's it's clearly not a
part of the posting of approving a certificate of appropri
ateness so it may be something as far as
giving direction for bringing an issue back uh that i'm
just concerned about the open meetings act
and and getting outside the posting that was well i give it
just a kind of a follow-up but as far as
my feeling has been is all we do is just say oh that wasn't
right to do it so i think if we do not
have some kind of posting on what is the penalty for doing
it everybody is going to keep doing it
because we talked after the meeting about one of the houses
in our neighborhood and roman you were
there i it was it didn't make this and i may be john who
noted that should follow up with you but
certificate of appropriate i mean if what if somebody just
doesn't bother put one up
and yet they've changed the character about the historic
house right and we did talk about that
after the meeting yeah we've got that one and i have it
that's the house now they made some
alterations in the back they changed the windows inside
yeah um well in my you know i've been here
two and a half years and there has been other than that
incident i think i can't i have a hard time
thinking of a lot of times it hasn't in my time been here
been a problem across the street
shall i go on it's a common thing but this is not for right
now so let's move on i just want to
say that we do need to handle this at some point because it
happens all of the time and people
even though you bike around the neighborhood i don't see
whose whose job is it to say you've
done something without appropriateness i would like to know
that answer
let me just try to address that real quick and then we'll
speak specifically to the subject matter
after tonight the results of the vote from the commission
roman will send out a letter
of what has happened and what their next steps will be they
being the eric bolido and applicant
and within that letter there will be some timeline as to
when that front facade will be addressed and
if you like we can share with you what that is either at
our next meeting or you know through
email we can also do that as well well i extended that
question on to ask what happens to people
who don't even bother like eric did which i gave him credit
for at least applying for it even though
he was seeking forgiveness as opposed to permission to do
it anyway and never even apply for a
specific appropriate and where the u is to monitor that so
i mean it's another it's another issue but
i think we have i would like to put that on the agenda or
how do we deal with this because
people do it all the time and nobody does anything
guidelines for enforcement is that
what you're asking for well what do you do with somebody
who has done something that has not been
approved at all and doesn't even bother to come here and
they know what full well they they're
supposed to it's a code enforcement it's a prosecution
enforcement all those yeah
i mean it has to be reported and then it goes to i mean
since we're the historic commission it's a
violation of of the of historic codes it is but but a
violation of code is brought before the
municipal court and it's a prosecution issue uh yes that
there there is some uh you know discretion
in bringing it forward and in having a trial and what have
you but uh in terms of perhaps
you know policy direction for a code amendment if that's
kind of a direction that you're going to
to change policy that's probably you know for a future time
yeah i agree it's for a future time
but it keeps popping up and so i mean just just really
quickly add that um if it is a zoning
requirement and zoning of appropriateness is a zoning
requirement we do have two zoning officers
and so any report of any violation will be forwarded to
those two officers they will follow
up and if needed citations and any follow-ups will happen
accordingly
and uh certainly if there have been other violations that
you mentioned
they haven't made it here of course not yeah i have not
seen that and i wasn't aware of it i mean
i don't live in your neighborhood but uh we don't get a lot
of uh sort of a discussion on on that
on that topic maybe never since and i've been one year here
so thank you ellen roy well i'm
i don't know that i mean it's a code enforcement issue i
mean those violations would probably
never come on our agenda right it's not not what we do not
unless they issue a coa
right we follow up retroactively even that becomes an
enforcement issue like suppose we issue a coa
and someone doesn't follow it that never comes back on our
agenda does it uh not general i mean
i guess what i'm really saying is do what you want is what
i hear i mean that's what i hear if if you
don't apply for a coa i'm here and do what you want because
nobody cares i mean i i just kind
of what i hear well no it's just it's a code enforcement
city officer they're the enforcement
branch we simply review coas and issue them or deny them or
approve them with modification
though if someone does what you're suggesting yeah there's
there's certainly a process for that but
it's not us educate me later on we can do a little i'd like
to do a little background i was quickly
checking on that i know in brownsville texas the landmark
commission can actually suggest the
a penalty and i'm looking here this is where we get into it
on this part of the code but
i don't remember having that penalty options i'm sorry i
didn't but but i but i on the topic i just
want to say that it we haven't seen it a lot and if it's an
issue we we in turn we need to get on
that a part of it but i will say um and and this gets to
the point of a mr palito's painting on his
building um that you know we're going we are the city of
the development service department's making
really good progress with an ordinance amendment that will
really provide some level of protection
for the downtown square and that's gotten nearly well no
unanimous support from the business owners
and the building owners in the community and i think that
credit goes to scott mcdonald who
kind of came up with the idea of how to put pull that
together and i i hope that people keep keep
in there keep in mind that you know let's move forward and
do good but sometimes you've got to
choose your choose the battles as they say but importantly
that's a cliche the important thing
is that we uh keep keep our eye on the big goal of the long
-term heritage of our city and and
the landmark commission in the past before i was here a
long time ago apparently there were problems
that were this at time that even the city council
considered that this this taking away the landmark
commission so uh you know the the we've got to not not
saying we wrote we we protect buildings
that's what we're going to do we're always going to do that
i'm just saying keep an eye on the big
picture that's all that's what i would suggest we keep
trying to do but uh i have one more item if
we get if you oh you still have this before you the uh the
project matrix matrix here
okay did you say you have one more item we've added the uh
and talking about enforcement next
time some kind of or some kind of clarification on
enforcement and then you want to we're going
to follow up on that house over there um where on here is
the effort that we were was presented to us
just now it well that happened a while back it's been
allocated um so so okay there's no action on
our part no put it on right now if the plans go forward i
'll meet with them and we'll we do need
to just confirm how we move forward and we want to run run
it by city council they've uh already
approved a budget for this we just want to make sure they
're fully on board with their direction
we're going with creating updating the preservation plan so
i'll make one comment the the uh
lacoda just mentioned that they wanted to look at our
design guidelines and we don't really have
so i was like well that's interesting we've got a little
segment see little pieces little snippets
so they're going to look at those snippets yeah yeah it's
not fleshed out enough to be
much use to them and so that's why i've started asking more
questions about what
what information you're going to gather because uh you know
i think that if you go back and look at
our documentation it won't take you two years which is one
very broad project scope from yes
need to work it's so huge i want i would like to hope that
the end result is something that we can
all hang our hat on as a you know moving forward and not
that's a real good point service to
lip service to a requirement right well i think that might
be the good point having this committee
steered because um you know if there's parts of what they
explain that seems superfluous that we
don't need to maybe we need to focus on guidelines there's
room possibly to discuss it with them
you know i was actually when when he said that i'm thinking
well i thought maybe that's what we're
going to come away with when you were done is is something
that's really a document with a lot of
meat in it that we can then follow it was just so it was so
broad i kind of i was losing focus what
was their focus again what you know it was just so broad so
i was just a little worried that
no i don't i don't think there was no ron's been about 12
11
no i don't think there was any historic preservation plan
efforts uh there may have been some
survey there was an update to the survey survey maybe there
was an update to the survey like right
when i first got on 2012 the idiots uh boliver survey 2015
idiots hill yes grant funded so
you know just i have quite a lot of experience in this area
of these type of of studies and there's
the good ones and the ones that literally only take shelf
space and and have no real value once
they're done and so of course we we want the former we want
we want something that that is truly
a plan and not just giving us back the information that we
already know i guess that's you know that's
why i'm worried about it being so broad yeah that the lack
of focus that's okay i mean i'm glad to
hear that we're probably going to be on it and we can give
our input and we can say you know here's
the areas we need to focus we need some real depth of you
know uh of documentation on where
we're going forward as we try to preserve the history of
this community i think people to
follow once none of us are on this board i think one of the
things that they did talk about that
is of great importance is how visual they like their plans
to be and that's really big because
this needs to also be an education tool not just for the
commission who is generally made up of
preservationists but for the community at large and that's
a really big deal that the community
be able to understand what the preservation plan is right
because look how important it can be to
cities i mean if you look at grapevine you look at mckinney
well and you look at how many people
are hesitant to move into neighborhoods or to have their
buildings registered or do any of that
because they feel like they will have their rights taken
away from them because they don't understand
what what the historic pressure they would move into a
subdivision with enough hoa's a little
old bitties running around giving them tickets for leaving
their garbage out too long really
okay but but that isn't an actual thing that people i often
hear is that there are homeowners
who are hesitant to move forward with registering their
house or getting it landmarked because they
don't understand what the historic plan is and so i think
that it's really good that we make it
so that the general public understands it and can latch on
to it i'm glad we're doing it
yes it's gonna be great okay all right if there is nothing
else or anything else to be added
i have one for the concluding items okay sorry thank you so
in concluding items you can you can
recognize uh people there and congratulate people so some
time back i submitted an application to the
texas historic commission for a little guy named john mor
ris and uh isn't that sweet so we have i
haven't framed this and i just want i just think it's a
good night to to give a little heads up
this is an award of merit from the texas historical
commission yes thank you for all of your efforts
in preservation john mr mcallan thank you for your award of
merit submission for john and donna
morris of denton texas we're delighted to read about their
contributions to historic preservation
in the city the outstanding work by mr and mrs morris was
received was reviewed by the texas
historical commission staff and approved by our executive
director they provide an example of the
wonderful work that can be accomplished when knowledgeable
individuals show a never-ending
dedication to preservation we're proud to present them with
the texas historic commission's award of
merit and they'd like to come and present it sometime to
you but i wanted to give you a heads
up that it's it's on its way very nice thank you john okay
that's all i have all right
move we adjourn let's do it we're done