Aug 08, 2022 Historic Landmark Commission on 2022-08-08 5:30 PM

forum. We're going to call this meeting to order at 533 in the afternoon. Welcome everybody. This is our regularly scheduled historic landmark commission meeting. Let's all rise and say the Pledge of Allegiance, followed by the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Honoring the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the Texas, one state, under God, one and indivisible. Thank you. I'm not sure what's going on. It still says this event has not yet started online. Oh really? So we were having technical difficulties and um... Okay. Should I announce that? Yes, now. Okay everybody. Can you call Billy? Yeah. Yeah, I was going to call Billy real quick. We're going to pause our meeting and go off the record. We have to connect with SwagIt and they're the ones who record it so that it can be published tomorrow online and so people can watch it live. And that's a requirement that we have so we won't be able to hold the meeting if we cannot get it recorded. Hey, 50 bucks for the done hook death. I knew it. I knew it. You wanted your evening back, I know. Hey look, I've got steak waiting. But I had my salad already. Did you notice those links of this attachment that you emailed to us? No, I did not. Yes, it's very long. Tell us all about it. Oh, it's on. It's on now? Yeah. Oh, okay. Now we bought you back because you kicked us out. Okay, thanks. Okay, sorry. I just wanted to make sure because they were going to record it a different way because this room is not technically recording today. Now it's that room. Okay, do you want to go back to square one? To start from? No, okay. Okay, once again, our quorum, we're going to resume where we left off which is our regularly scheduled meeting agenda. Item for consideration, HLC 22-071. Consider approval of the June 13, 2022 minutes. I think everybody got those in an email. I wasn't there. I'll make a motion. Second. Okay, we have a motion and a second. All those in favor? Signify by raising your hand. All right, so it's unanimous. Well, one abstention, right? Thank you, Mary. Ms. Berry, second? Yes. Yes, because she wasn't here that day. Okay, item B, COA 22-0011, hold a public meeting and consider an application for a certificate of appropriateness in accordance with section 2.9.2 of the Dent Development Code to remove the north elevator addition and restore/reconstruct the historic north and west elevation of the north facade at 221 North Elm Street, a local historic landmark property and recorded historic Texas landmark. The site is located on the southwest corner of North Elm Street and West McKinney Street and Ms. Robertson, I'll turn it to you. Thank you, Chair. This is our City Hall West located at 221 North Elm Street. Sorry, I'm going to see if I can carry it. Okay, so the location is the southwest corner of North Elm and West McKinney Street, so directly heading south, just south of us right here. The owners are the City of Denton. The construction date is circa 1927 and as stated, it's known as City Hall West as well as the old Denton City Hall. So the building's history is designed by Vance Lake and Woodruff. The architectural style is Spanish Renaissance style. The defining features are arched windows, tile roof, ornamental stone embellishments, kind of that South Texas Mission style influence, and as Chair noted, it's a local historic landmark and a recorded Texas historic landmark. So the request is to demolish the non-original north elevator addition, as you can see right here from the site plan, and reconstruct the historic north and west elevations of the north facade, so as you can see here in this old photo. This would return the north facade to its original 1927 building footprint. So with that removal, that would be restored. So this is the current conditions. Whoops, I meant view south from West McKinney Street. This is the demolition elevation. So as you can see here, they'd be removing this addition right here. This is the drawings here and then as shown on the previous slide, that little square right there. This is the proposed elevation. It would include the white brick that you see elsewhere on the facade. It would be wood and metal clad windows for these new additional windows, the door, as well as the transom window, which would match the rest of the facade on the building. It would be that vanilla cream colored window finishing that we currently see. We would get the tile roofing back, as well as that cast stone. So this is the window installation details. As you can see here, this is the double hung interior, what it would look like, that double hung exterior, and then these are the different designs. Sorry, we can't really see you on the monitor. Do you want to try standing on this camera? Is it this one? Yeah. Okay. Hello everyone. So this did have to go through the Texas Historical Commission review. This letter is dated May 20, 2022. They did not provide any recommendations, but they did have a determination that it did meet the Secretary of Interior's standards for rehabilitation, therefore waiving the remainder of the RTHL review period. In staff's analysis, looking at the standards for rehabilitation, and the reason it's a standards for rehabilitation via restoration is due to the fact that they're not removing the south addition as well, returning the full original footprint to the building. So that's why we're having just a rehabilitation job done. So staff looked specifically at points two, three, five, and nine, which we discussed a little bit more in depth in your AIS packet. And staff is recommending approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness request to remove the north elevator addition and restore and reconstruct the historic north and west elevations of the north facade at City Hall West. Any questions? And we do have the architect here who would be working on the project. Question. So is there not going to be an elevator then? Correct. Correct. So there will not be one? There is an elevator on the south facade, or in the south addition, but not the north addition. The north elevator is no longer needed because a part of the scope will be removing the 1980s infill floors. So that north elevator was only required to access those infill floors. So it's no longer useful. Okay. But there is still an elevator there for it. There is. It's on the south side. Okay. So that might answer my next question. When was that addition added to the building? I believe 1980. 1981 when they added the police station. Yeah. What does the front of the building look like now out of curiosity? Did you have a picture of that? It does not look anywhere nearly as pretty as what you showed me when you started. All the pretty stuff seemed to be gone. It's very similar. I think the trees cover up a lot of that now. Yes. Although it's pretty stone and decorative. I don't remember. Yes. So that's still as it exists. I was going to say maybe I can pull it up. That's all right. I just wonder. I don't remember seeing it. It's fine. If you say it's there, I believe you. I drive by, but maybe I'm looking at the wrong side of it and just. If it helps, Mary. Here's the current picture. I think. That looks so much more attractive. It's the angle. The shot. Probably. Yes, the shot. Thank you. Sure. In our packet, there was a picture of it looked like trim of like a column that maybe is being repaired or something. I wondered where that the ticker was. Are you discussing the I think it's the balustrade or maybe that one's in it. It might've been on that. Some of that. And then I think there was another one. So there, I think in addition, they said they're restoring that as well. Yes, they were repairing those. Yes. That's pretty serious. So do we know what the ultimate use of this building will be in the end? Or can we not say. I wouldn't let. I think it's currently going under a master plan phase and where we're asking the community what the best use for the building is. So that was planning zoning, which is down here, right? So planning and zoning has been in a couple of locations, but yes, playing and zoning was there for several years from my understanding. I've heard all kinds of Reservation officer was there too. Yes. Yes. Occupied in 2016. I guess I've heard a lot of different uses for it. There seems to be a little jockey for what it should be good for. Okay. Any other questions? Where is the discussion about what it's going to be? I've missed this. I know I've been out of town. So the discussion has been, uh, we've had several community meetings. There's a community survey that I know was just recently reposted on social media through the city. Those of us don't Facebook because we just don't want that. Is there any other place we might see this? Those surveys, right? Um, I, I do not believe it's being offered elsewhere. I know it's been emailed to, to email groups. Um, but that's been handled by the city of Denton communication. That seems to me a bad communication plan. Some of us just don't believe in Facebook. I don't like supporting the person that owns it. I think we're a little off topic, but, uh, I'd be, I'm more than happy to share that survey with you, Mary. Um, I'm more than happy to share that with all the commissioners, just to make sure that you all have it. I don't have Facebook either, so I'm not offended. Okay. Any other questions? All right. Hearing none. Um, in order to go forward with this, we'll need a motion. They're the normal four. Um, if you'd like me to go through those, I will. Um, but I'll entertain a motion. I move that we approve a seat. What is it? Co a two, two dash zero zero one for a certificate of appropriateness to reconstruct the Northwest elevation of the facade on Denton, uh, see almost zero zero one one, one one. Oh, I just wanted to start. Thank you. Okay. So your motion is to prove that submitted. Yes. Do we have a second? Second. Okay. We have a motion and a second. Um, I'll just throw the floor open for discussion. Quiet bunch today. They seem to have gone out all out on the plane. Don't know. It seems pretty a lot better than the last windows. I saw her this building come through. Okay. Hearing no other discussion. Um, we'll call the vote. All those in favor signify by raising your right hand. All right. This one is unanimous. It passes. Thank you. Okay. Next up on our agenda. Well, first of all, that concludes the public part of our meeting. Well, she's more than welcome this day. Um, so now we enter item three, which is the work session and we'll pause for just a minute. Okay. No, I just want to make sure that she knew to accept another email for me. Okay. So we'll unpause ourselves. Um, this is just work session, uh, agenda item three, a HLC 22 dash zero zero six nine, hold the discussion regarding the goals policies and recommendations to achieve the vision and value statements of the didn't sort preservation plan. Mr. Robertson. Okay. So there's a lot of information, but I'm going to summarize as best as I can so that no one falls asleep while I'm presenting. Um, but so I just thought it'd be good to do a general overview. Since we have some new commissioners, we hadn't covered this. I thought it'd be good to do a general overview of the debt and preservation, historic preservation plan, kind of run through the goals, visions, the values of how we got there and kind of that implementation process. So table of contents. First, we'll be covering the why that I'll be going into vision statement, value statements, um, an overview of the goals, policy and recommendations cause it's pretty heavy and then kind of that implementation as I stated. So the why, so first we have it mentioned in the DDC section 2.3.6 C which does state that the historic landmark commission does have review authority over the city's historic preservation plan. We also have a lot of community feedback and benefits to this historic preservation plan. As you can see here, we have comments as we need to preserve and interpret all histories and cultures in Denton. We need to help homeowners and maintain their properties and prevent the demolition of landmarks. Um, you know, preservation, a lot of people state it's really good to have that mixed use sense of commercial and residential. It provides unique environments in terms of the built environment. Um, it can create new jobs when you're rehabbing historic buildings. It can provide also new housing choices as well. And you also have that kind of economic benefits as well as arts and cultural and enhancing property values. So looking now at the economic benefits. So this is kind of a wide range of preservation in general, but 2.26 billion in annual visitor spending is related to historic based tourism. That's huge. That's a great benefit right there. Then 772 million in historic building rehabilitation projects. Then we have, you know, four to five million dollars invested by the federal state of Texas initiative programs. And then that 310 million per year in Texas, GDP and main street revitalization. So then our downtown Denton district. So moving on to the vision statement, I summarize this as a very large paragraph, but I kind of broke it down highlighting, um, underlying those, you know, pieces that are of importance, I feel like to you all as a commission. So historic preservation has and continues to play a vital role in a revitalized downtown courthouse square district preservation and conservation of Denton central and mid century neighborhoods provide opportunities for those walkable places with authenticity and character preservation contributes to the dentist's distinctiveness and visual qualities preserve buildings and places. Tell the story of Denton ongoing educational programs and outreach efforts help to tell these stories in innovative ways, inspiring a new generation of Denton preservation leaders and advocates. And then lastly, important impact on Denton's economy, neighborhood, cohesiveness and long-term sustainability. Any questions before I move on? I know this is a lot. So moving on to value statements. So in our preservation plan, we have six value statements. The first one is historic building and resources define Denton's image and identity. From there, we have our statement number two, which heritage resources are vital elements to maintaining a prosperous downtown Denton. You'll hear downtown Denton because that's kind of where the hub of most of our historic buildings are and where they kind of, um, you know, spread out from there and branch out. Then we have our statement number three, which is preservation enhances residential neighborhoods. Historic buildings are visible reminders of Denton's history and time past, which is our statement number four. Statement number five states that a strong and effective local historic preservation program requires collaborative efforts between many different preservation partners. So Denton County, historic Denton, the different commissions within our Denton County. And then we have our statement number six, which is preservation efforts in Denton recognize all groups and populations that have contributed to Denton's built environment. Any questions? Okay. So goals, policy and recommendations. So there are four goals. So we're basically working our way up down from the vision to the values to our goals. So our goals, we have four goals. The first one is document inventory and preserve Denton's significant historic cultural and architectural resources. From there it's promote the preservation, adaptive use and stewardship of historic resources as integral elements to a vibrant and sustainable downtown Denton and residential neighborhoods. Goal number three is to maintain a well-managed integrated municipal historic preservation program that facilitates local preservation activity. And lastly, goal number four is to increase the awareness of historic preservation benefits through ongoing outreach and educational activities, youth engagement and other programming activities. So we're going to be focusing specifically on the areas highlighted in red. I want to show you all how much there is incorporated into this preservation plan. And I know that I believe Mary and Roy and Angie, as commissioners, all helped implement this back in 2019. And I know this was a huge effort, so I appreciate it. But our first goal that we're looking at, we're looking at a total of five policies that make up that goal number one with along with 12 recommendations. But the part where historical landmark commission is always mentioned are these kind of these different recommendation areas. So the first one is recommendation 1.5, which is to support national register of historic places listings for eligible neighborhoods and existing local historic districts. So that's kind of where we've had surveys done in the past where we're looking to do national register historic districts or landmarks is trying to get those implemented, really selling that to the community and saying, these are your benefits that come from getting this national register status. This only benefits you. It doesn't hurt you. The next is to recommendation number 1.6, which is explore potential boundary expansion of the Oak Hickory local historic district south of Hickory Street. I think since my time here, there's been a little bit of chat. I don't think we've ever had that chat as a commission, but I just wanted to highlight that to you is that this is kind of that collaborative effort that the preservation plan is talking about. And they mentioned other partners as well. The next is recommendation 1.8, which is prepare an annual study list of potential landmarks and districts. I don't think we have this at either. I think we do have some of these survey areas and mentions within the plan itself, but I don't think it's a living breathing document. So that is a recommendation that we can do towards the future. Another one is 1.10, and that's compile and publish survey report publications and brochures, which we're golden there. We do have those surveys online for people to access under the historic preservation page. So goal number two, we have a total of four policies and 19 recommendations. And again, we have about five where the historic landmark commission is really coming into play, at least that's mentioned in the historic preservation plan. The first is designate new historic conservation districts and portions of the woods and Bolivar neighborhoods. So I know there was a survey done in 2012 for Bolivar. I'm not sure to what extent the commission was involved with that, but that is something that we are looking to expand as our conservation districts because we don't have any anymore once Bell became a historic district. Another is considered designation of the Hickory and Oakland street commercial area as a historic conservation district. So looking into that as well, we do have a recommendation 2.15, which is maintain an inventory of vacant or deteriorating historic properties, which we started doing. We started to keep an eye on this deteriorating properties, especially with code enforcement now getting involved, which is great, but starting to keep that running list and having those conversations of where are we seeing built historic properties kind of deteriorating and creating a list from that. And the next is recommendation 2.18 is create a more comprehensive interpretive way, finding and science plan for Denton's heritage sites. So this kind of leads into what my next work session is. That's going to be kind of more of an open discussion amongst the commission. And then lastly is our recommendation 2, that should be 19. We're all out of order. So ignoring the numbers. 2.19 is pursue preservation based activities as part of the Denton's downtown cultural district planning efforts. So I think that was done a little bit this past year with preservation month, but it was kind of a fast moving process where we weren't able to bring the commission on until the two months leading up to prior. But that was kind of moving towards that recommendation, building up kind of that preservation based activities in the education and outreach. So goal number three, that does incorporate two policies and 10 recommendations. So this is a big part for the Denton Historic Landmark Commission. It does include six different recommendations and we go all the way down. But this is specifically to ensure the efficient operations and support of the Denton Historic Landmark Commission. So this is for me ad hoc Historic Landmark Commission subcommittees to manage and implement various tasks related to the survey and education efforts, which we've started doing, maintain Denton's certified local government status, which we are conducting regular trainings and create orientation materials for new commissioners to the Historic Landmarks Commission. Hopefully I'm doing a good job with that. Maintaining a rules and procedure document, adopting an annual Historic Landmark Commission work plan. I have not seen a work plan since I've been here, but maybe that is something that we can work towards in the future. And then completing designation reports for landmarks and districts. So that's part of that policy 3.1. We also have policy 3.2 and this really focuses on updating the historic preservation ordinance for remote clarity of COAs, procedures and Historic Landmark Commission responsibilities among other ordinance enhancements. So that's what our definition ad hoc committee is actually working on right now. So this is great. We're moving this recommendation that they have here, which is a high priority. Preparing a citywide design guidelines manual. That's also a high priority, but that will take some time. Prepare a more detailed hazard mitigation plan for historic resources in Denton. And then lastly, adopting and implementing a historic property deconstruction program. And then lastly, we're on goal number four and it has two policy 11 recommendations, but we're focusing on 4.1, which is creating a crowdsourced Denton history websites. So that is just a recommendation. There are some GIS maps out there that I've worked on with other staff. So that is growing. There is the encouragement of public participation in crowdsourced community history storytelling activities. We also have increased awareness and use of federal rehabilitation tax credits, which we've learned about and kind of spreading that education with people out in the community. And then lastly, to create a marketing plan to encourage additional local landmark destinations. Really getting out there, be it postcards or flyers or just community meetings and saying, Hey, here are your benefits, not even just at the local landmark destination, but even at the state and federal as well. Any questions? I did have one. What is the crowdsource like a historical website? So crowdsourcing would basically be opening a website up and allowing people to jump onto that website and provide stories or old photos, different information. It would obviously have to go through some type of, I guess, process in terms of making sure the information is okay to be posted online. But that's basically what crowdsourced. So basically just shooting it out there and saying, Hey, you know, give us your story, share your photos so that we can create this living, breathing website that is created by people who live here and who have history here. Does that exist currently? We do not. I've been working with GIS to create a map. We do have a map so far that has been launched, but it does need to be cleaned. It's supposed to be showing what buildings have been demoed, what buildings have received alterations, but it's thousands and thousands of points in GIS that I have to go through and clean. And so it's taking me a bit of time, but that is in the process. And they really, GIS would love to do crowdsourcing, but they're not really sure how to do it. And so that's something that we can bring back to discuss as a commission and put that on the matrix if we feel. But I just wanted to bring these to you all's attention. These are just some of the recommendations that were made in 2019 and maybe perhaps some goals that the commission can work towards in the future. Yes. Is there anything included in there about the background experience of the commissioners? I think we got a survey not too long ago asking what is our familiarity with historic sites. And so does this, should it include anything about that? And then second question relating back to what Mary said, should there be anything in there with regard to what communication formats are used when you're conducting community surveys that need to be included in this plan? So first answering your question about the historic background and what qualifications there are. So that is not included in this. That was actually just included when we redid the ordinance back in, was that Marcella, when is that January? I believe so, but I would just know this is a static document that was created in 2019. So we're not making amendments to this document and it does reference maintaining our CLG status and that historic background requirement is part of maintaining that status. Yes. So it's not specific, those, that breakdown is not mentioned in the preservation plan. That is mentioned specifically under the CLG documentation on Texas Historical Commission's website, but it was not included in this 2019. And so we updated our ordinance when we reduced the amount of commissioners recently, and that's where we included those different background requirements or qualifications. And then regarding, what is your, I forget. How do you communicate with surveys of being conducted like the one that was mentioned? So that's also not specifically mentioned. I know we do have our public affairs department and they are the ones who are handling more of that social media outreach. I know they have certain emails that they send it out to certain businesses. They put it on Facebook. Sometimes they put it on Instagram. I'm not sure about flyers. I don't think they- So why not just use Nextdoor? That's much more local than Facebook. I'm unfortunately not in charge of that. That's a great suggestion. But it just limits the number of people that you're getting input from like me. Right. And I feel left out. Or as commissioners, would that be just automatic than anything that went out to the public for their input that we would at least have knowledge of? Yeah, exactly. I have no knowledge of. So I don't know if all commissions, I don't know if commissions are actually included when they send that out. I know it's primarily businesses and nonprofits that get that email. But I don't know to what extent the commissioners do. I usually hear secondhand as well. I think we're very much off topic, so we need to end this discussion. But it's not related to what we're supposed to be discussing. So if we want to have a discussion to come back, we can talk about that at The Matrix. Additionally, you can reach out to your council member or reach out to our community affairs team if you have concerns about how surveys are being given out. But for this discussion, that's not really an appropriate avenue at this time. I hope a lot of decisions are going to be made. I'm not sure where we're going with this whole thing. We're not talking about decisions that are going to be made. We're discussing a document that is under your duty as a chair member to be familiar with. So we're just going through the document that has already been drafted. We're not supposed to have any action related to this document. This is a work session, not a training session. So I guess that's a title. But yeah, let me make a note to myself of what I want to send it to. Okay. Sounds good. And then regarding just the implementation of the Historic Preservation Plan, this was created with the commission, with the council members, the community input. So it is kind of a breakdown of hierarchy here with the citizens of Denton, then it goes to city council, you all as the Historic Landmark Commission. And then from there, if you're willing to do designations, it would go to Planning and Zoning Commission. If we're looking at doing certificate appropriateness, or just preservation plan recommendations and getting those implemented, that would come through myself. And then we also have our other preservation partners here and governmental implementation partners. So we do have the county. We have Denton Main Tree Association. We have Texas Historical Commission. And then some of the preservation partners are Historic Denton, UNT and TWU, Civic Organization, Cultural District, Investors, etc. But I just wanted to share if we want to have discussion or anything regarding what was shared today. Yeah. Under the Goal 3, there was a Rules and Procedure document. Was anything ever promulgated on that? Or was that just a goal to have a later date? That was a goal to have it a later date. We did have a little bit of discussion right when I first started trying to kind of go over of the correct way of holding a meeting and starting kind of small from there, but we do not have a living document right now. Maybe something for the rules and optimities. That could be something that's more easily amended to solve some of those other issues with that. Any more questions or discussion? I don't know if it's a question or a discussion. And since it's just a working session right now, were you guys aware of the new log cabin that was purchased to go into the little park? Yes. Do y'all know about it? There's another one? There's one that's coming. Okay. It's amazing. It is just those kinds of things that I wish that we just, you know, could find out about. It was purchased from a gentleman that redid the ones already up at the city. And he had the, it is an old country store and I have got, I have gone in it. It is fascinating. I'm telling you, it is amazing. So I'm just proud that our city is able to do those kinds of things and probably have anything to do with our, but I already have been here. Hold this discussion. Like if we want to do a work session or if you want to talk about it during concluding items, it's just, it's not appropriate for this. It was on your input of who had input. I don't remember. Was that in goal four someplace? So there are, oh, yes. Yeah, exactly. I thought you said the word investors and I was confused as to what you meant by investors. It says, I see it very well. That's right. Okay. It's so hard to see from here. I'm not necessarily sure what was meant by investors. I, you know, that could be potentially for, you know, saving a property from demolition and investing it and fixing it up and working with them specifically to get it designated at the state or local level. Developers, obviously we deal with developers a lot when it comes to historic properties, foundations. I guess I'm just interested in clarification. So I mean, you know, you can speculate, but I just wanted to know what was actually meant. I would say you need to check the preservation plan, unfortunately, what they meant specifically by investors. I guess it was also included as a broad concept since it's a broad conceptual plan, not a specific detail, like they're broad recommendations. So they probably wanted to include as many potential parties as possible. Correct. Okay. So I have a question. So this is the plan that we, that was adopted back in 2019. Yes. Correct. Correct. So what's now happened is we've gone through this plan and said, okay, so to implement this plan, we need to things for people to work on goals that are spread. And so what you've developed now is a matrix of what should be on our to-do list, if you will. Right. Yes. Correct. Okay. And so how do we get those scheduled, add them to the matrix and discuss Yes. Yep. So that's what we ended up doing with the definitions ad hoc committee before it was implemented. That was a matrix item. Right. And then this item that's about to come forward to you all on the next work session that I'm doing right after this, that's another item that's in this preservation plan, but it's also been brought forward by city council. So now it's coming forward to you all. So that's kind of how these things are getting implemented. Thank you. Okay. Anything else on this agenda item? Okay. So the next item B under our work session, HLC 22-005, hold the discussion regarding the formation of a historic marker ad hoc committee to create a standard operating procedure and design standards to be used by staff property owners and developers when creating historic markers per display. So I do not have a presentation for this. This is just going to be up. It's just pictures. But this is one of the recommendations that we do have within our, one of our goals and policies that we do have within our preservation plan is to create or implement historic markers of some sort in terms of wayfinding signage. So I wanted to bring this forward to you all today in the possibility of creating a subcommittee that would be in charge of creating these historic markers. Staff myself would be there to assist, but staff is looking for HLC to take a direction on this because this would be something that's pretty monumental and could really have an impact on the community. That's kind of cool. So we do have some examples from different counties, also cities as well in North Carolina and Virginia. The example that was provided in the packet was from Winston-Salem, North Carolina, which then the county kind of took over, force that county took over and it's kind of a combination or a collaboration between the city as well as the county. But so this would be, we've had developers come to staff asking if we do have historic sign program. Parks Department has recently reached out to me asking me if we have a historic marker program because they have some Boy Scouts who are wanting to implement some signage. So people, it's starting to kind of take off. Selwyn School wants to put up a memorial plaque as part of their mitigation on site. So they're looking to do something like this as well. So we do have interest from developers as well as staff and other departments. So I did want to bring this forward and I guess we do have two options, Roy. Okay. Yeah. I'm assuming your two options are to ask for volunteers or to appoint people. So it would be minimum three commissioners votes required to create the committee or no action. I have a question. Do we have samples of the various ones around our way in the city? The only people who have created signage so far besides the state itself is our historic landmark designation sign and then the parks and the parks department has not done anything like this. They have just their narrative signage that you see at the parks when you visit them, when they kind of tell an educational story with photos and all that. But we do not have any signs of this kind. Would this include street sign talkers like they're doing? No, this wouldn't, it'd be a separate program. I know I have another one. I just haven't, I haven't put it up. I've got two, but I haven't figured out how to attach them to my house. And then a lot of the, a lot of the houses in that, in the Oak Creek area have a big. Correct. Those are next to the, those are national. Register ones. Yes. Yes. So we do have all the designations at the national Texas and local, but we do not have anything specifically where a designation isn't required, where it just tells a story. So that would be the purpose of these markers would just be to tell that narrative or that story where there might not be a home present or commercial building present anymore, but there's still a significant story to be told. So would the committee, we're not just talking about the actual design of the signs, where are we talking about the procedures for applying? We would develop the procedures for applying for this, you know, maybe narrative standard, whatever. Yeah. Okay. Yes. And the question here today is, do we, do we want to create an ad hoc committee? And so in order to do that, we need to vote in a majority, at least. At least three commissioners. At least three commissioners voting to create the committee. Yes. Correct. Do we need a second with the motion or just a motion and then. I believe it's just a motion. That's what we did last time. Yeah. It would just be a motion and a crime. It would just be one. No, I had to think of that for a second. Cause it's not a nomination. Right. Exactly. So it's okay. So do we have a motion to start an ad hoc committee to look at historical worker, uh, for state SOPs and design standards. Okay. We have a motion. We don't need a second. All those in favor signify by raising your hand. Well, we have all of our commissioners voting yes. So we add it to the matrix next time. Yes. Or to solicit volunteers. We're going to do that next time. Either way. Okay. But it's not here. Right now. Well, that's what's up next anyway. Okay. Anything else on agenda item HLC 22-005 hearing none. Next item on our work session is item C HLC 22-072. Hold the discussion regarding the historic landmark commission project matrix. Okay. So we have our creation of historic signage for properties throughout Dunn, which we discussed today. We do have a request for updating discussion on current historic tax assumptions offered in Dunn, which was requested by you all in October. So that will be coming to a future meeting. You have public outreach and education to homeowners, real estate agents, contractors, which will be coming forward to another meeting, as well as the benefits of having a historic landmark commission, as well as potential for windows standards. So that is what we currently have. We can add additional requests to the matrix. Do we need to do a motion to do that or? You would need a minimum of three votes to get it on the matrix. So should we do it? So my question is, do we need to have a vote on whether or not to add an item for an accession for this newly created ad hoc commission member or requesting membership or something like that? Well, we think it would be on our matrix regardless because there's an open item. Okay. I didn't know if we needed to do something special to do that. Yeah. I think if you guys want to nominate people next time, we can just make sure it's on the agenda for next time. Okay. Nominate or ask for volunteers. Last time we asked for volunteers. Nominate and/or vote. Who's not going to show up? We already have another ad hoc committee. And so rules, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So number one on the matrix. You want me to do this? Yes. No. Oh, you don't. I just ran through those. So it's just whether or not anyone wants to add, or if you want specific, if you want one of these specific requests to come next meeting, I'm more than happy to do that. But shouldn't the first item, we've sort of covered that right over. So should we not remove that from the matrix? I think you did that presentation, Cameron. I did. Yeah. When? I don't know, but we went really in depth with the federal and state. Oh my gosh, I did. Dustin's COAs. I was doing the same thing. I was like, was it connected to something different? I think it's been connected to a lot of COAs as well, because I've questioned myself. But thank you all for clarifying. Thank you. Okay, I will remove the top. The second one, we've just created the committee. So next time, we'll ask for volunteers. Is that November 14th? I have the page. I'm right. Is the city holiday to have Columbus Day? No. Okay. I wasn't sure. It's not a state holiday, but yeah. We do not have. I work on that day. It doesn't matter. I just want that day. We do have Veterans Day this year. That's one of the new city holidays. Okay, good. Yeah, they added Veterans Day and Juneteenth this year. Yeah. Discussion of the benefits of having an HLC says staff presentation for a future meeting. So that one, y'all are going to enroll something else in month or two? Yes, that's fine. It will probably be, it'll be very long. A discussion of why we're necessary is probably the most bureaucratic thing we've ever heard. As a commissioner request. I'll say it was a commissioner request. If you want to remove it, I can. Okay. No other discussion? All right. Hey, so is this to ask for our window standards committee to come back to us? Yes, no. Discussion about the potential for window standards. We've had a hot committee that's been working on it. Do you guys just let us know when you're ready to do that or not? How do we bring that back before us in full glory? So the commission or the subcommittee will let me know when they're ready to present. Okay. So that one doesn't need. Okay. So we're removing number one, we can obviously we'll removing number two or updating number two. Are we removing number four? I heard Andi state something. I'm up for removing number four. I mean, I just think of it as something to short summary to send to city council or something. So they know why we're here. Wait, but this is a presentation. I agree. Okay. So we're moving number four. Wait, removing may have three votes. One, two, three. So you have the authority to remove that. That's no episode. Just do it smiling. I like that answer. Are we still being recorded? Yes, we are. Oh, no. So does the window standards get formally sent to the ad hoc committee? No. Do they accept that? They were not formally sent to the ad hoc committee. So when that was mentioned as a little bit. Yes, I think they were confused as well. I'll clarify that one. So if ad hoc committee wants to take it on, they can. If not, we can do like a work session discussion with the whole group. Yes. To prepare standards. And then if we decide we need a committee to meet separately, then we can do that. But I know, I think the whole group has pretty varying opinions about windows. Windows is like the hot topic. Yeah. So I know. So I kind of feel like maybe everyone will have input on that. So it might make sense to do it as a group meeting. No problem. Yeah. That was the plan. Okay. And that'll take a while. Well, that's... No, let's go ahead. No, no, no, no. No, you're good. I'm the one that asked that to be on here, just so we would have standards. And so we kind of thought we, that was our committee, didn't we? Wait, are we talking about the windows standards? Well, I think we identified the way, my takeaway from the whole meeting was that there's some fundamental issues with, and not way under windows even, really. And so that's what I'm hoping. Finally, this week, that's why I asked for the word document. Thank you for sending with the track changes in there. I just want to really go over where we are. And then we can talk about where we need to be. Because it's my understanding that things have changed a good bit as far as HLC is already. Yes. And so we're kind of, I don't know if rebuilding is a word, but in a sense. I think it's a good word. Yeah. Well done. See, we're already on. So as far as window, if you guys want to talk about, I think that's fantastic. But honestly, I have nothing to offer at this point as far as like the specifics on windows really. So then we might just keep that on here for maybe another month or two before we bring that and let the definitions ad hoc committee get through their sub-chapter two review. Kind of just seeing where HLC stands in terms of powers and duties, and then go from there. That might be. Andy, how do you feel? No, I agree totally with you. Just in addition that I would say to that, if staff, if you can, if you had, I'm not trying to put this on you. I'm just saying, if you really did have information on windows that could help, we would definitely take that. I think that would be great to give us something to start looking at. From the national register and the Texas state. All those different things. I know I've seen it flashed by my eyes before, but I saw that maybe once or twice. Does anybody else notice in the COA we approved that those windows in that building are going to be wood clad windows? Yes. I loved it. I love the word. I love the wood. Right. But then I'm thinking those look like pretty good windows when you're reading about it. The whole time I was thinking how much those, those are probably unfortunate. Yeah, they're not. Yeah. They will last forever though. Okay. My windows are wood and they are over 100 years old and they're still there. And some of the window glass is still the same. Not all of it, I guess. Okay. So any other discussion on the matrix? Things we're about to see. I adjourned before you were done my time. So I'm. Yeah. Well, if you want to call concluding items, and if you want to continue your discussion of that, well, Kevin, if you have anything else to share, it's appropriate. Have you guys seen that that's coming? I did see it. And it's fabulous. A while back now though. Do what? The Take Record Chronicle did a small blurb about that a while back. Yes. So when it gets here and when it's all set up, I would encourage everyone to go take a look. I want to meet the guy that's been doing this. I really would. He's a neat guy. He really is a neat guy. But I'm just telling you, and then I have anything to do probably with historic land commission, except that all of those structures are historic structures. So my question too, is that do we fit into any of that at all? So that's through the Denton County Historical Commission. Yeah. So that's their office of history and culture. So I would love for us to kind of a mixer of some sort with their commission, because I do think they have interest in knowing what we're doing at the local level. I'm kind of their point person right now. And so I do fill them in and kind of the discussions we've had and everything. But I know that I think there is some interest and Melody is on our past commissioner, Melody, she is on that commission as well still. So, you know, I think, I think it would be a great connection to have, and that maybe there can be more of a partnership and a collaboration and getting destinations or doing events together and going from there. So if you all had interest, I don't know what it was, but there was between the county and the city, but I don't know what it was before my time. So I just don't know. Great. Oh, you're talking about the friction between the two? Yeah. I don't know what it was, but maybe we've passed all of that by now. I don't know what it was. Just trying to imagine this. Any other comments or questions with regard to the matrix? Hearing none, I would entertain a motion to adjourn. I move we adjourn. I second. Those in favor, aye. We ring the bell and we are out of here. Now we're off the record.