Nov 29, 2017 Planning and Zoning Commission on 2017-11-29 5:00 PM

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . >> Good evening and welcome to the city of Denton planning and zoning commission meeting for November 29, 2017. This meeting has been duly posted and we do have a quorum present and I will call us to order at 634. Our first meeting is on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a qu orum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. 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We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a qu orum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. 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We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. We will have a quorum meeting on November 29, 2017. If you're opposed to 33 houses being built there, how much difference is that if they were -- they could rezone it to an NR4, which would allow up to 24 houses? So we're only talking nine house difference there. That land can't stay dormant. It's not fair to the property owners. So it's going to be filled in eventually. So would you have a conflict with 24 homes as opposed to 33? >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> I would say that the land is going to be filled in eventually. >> There's a need, there's a big need in the city of Denton for affordable housing. We build way too much it seems like for upper end home buyers, you know. And yet there's a need for affordable housing for low and middle income working families. So, again, I don't want to put you in a spot, but what would be your position as far as providing that need, even if it is in your neighborhood? >> Well, I'm not knowledgeable about all the other available lots, you know, in Denton. You know, so if there were any of those, they should be looked at too. But, you know, there's more agenda items that, you know, probably cover that for other folks here that it's a little more concerning, you know. It's not up against our back lot, so to speak. So, you know, we're just dealing with it four houses away. So, yeah, if the commission deems it so, it's just, you know, just think of the current residents in that neighborhood and try to remember that, you know, we have concerns, you know. >> Sure. >> But understand the economics that it's, you're right, it 's empty property, just doesn't do much good. >> Well, and again, to lay some of your concerns, once they do start building, they have to provide site plans. So, they have to follow certain rigid guidelines as far as what it's going to look. It has to blend into the community. So, that's another opportunity for you to come back and look and make sure that they're not going to be putting something up cheap. And we're here to make sure they don't either. So, but thank you for your input on that. >> And thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you. The next card I have is Barney Casamo at 610C North. North Bell, you'll give your name and address for the record. I appreciate you'll have four minutes for your comments. >> My name is Barney Casamo. 610 North Bell is our corporate offices. I'm the executive director of Dent and Affordable Housing Interim. I've been in that position for about 16 or 18 months. >> And I see your card's in support. >> I definitely am in support. >> Okay. >> But I want to say that if this was my neighborhood, I would still be in support. And that's one of the criteria I use when any project is proposed by anybody, be it building or buying. It has to be something that I would not be concerned about having as a neighbor. When I drive down the Argera, which I frequently do, there is quite a dense multifamily housing development that's gone in right across from that property. So if density is the issue, we've already missed the boat because there's a lot of housing right there. Denton definitely needs affordable housing. I spoke to one neighbor from the development, I guess where this gentleman lives, and he was in support of it after we discussed it. He was concerned about affordable housing, small houses, tiny houses, Section 8, whatever. But he was quite comfortable with single family houses that we're proposing. Thank you. >> Great. Thank you. Next card I have is John Withers, 2001 McCamey Boulevard, in support. >> Good evening. I'm John Withers. I'm a real estate broker . I work with Roger Yale. And to kind of echo the sentiments of the affordable housing deal, as of 4 o'clock today, houses that are listed and active on the market within the city of Denton, there are 72 listed on the market. There's only 52 of those that are actually available to purchase, with 20 of those already being in contract. The average square footage of those is about 1,700 feet. So everything that we're proposing is falling within line. We're 1,500 to 1,700 square feet. We're actually going to be a little bit cheaper than that 250 mark. So the affordable housing aspect of it, even though it's kind of silly to think 250 is the affordable housing mark, that's where the market is right now, and that's the product that we're looking to put on the ground. So I support it. >> Okay. Thank you for your comments. >> Thank you. >> Next card I have is Mark Moffett, 2708 Crater Lake, in support. >> Good evening, commissioners. Mark Moffett, 2708 Crater Lake Lane, Denton, Texas. I serve on the board of directors for the Denton Affordable Housing Corporation. Several years ago, I was approached to serve on that board, and I jumped at it. This is something I'm very passionate about. I'm also a real estate broker. I'm also a registered professional appraiser in the state of Texas. This is a real need in our community, in our state, in our nation, is to be able to provide affordable housing for people. And we're not -- in our organization, we have several units that address the need for either Section 8, low income, special needs, things like that. We address all of those, and those are priorities in our organization. Providing affordable homeownership is also another priority , and this particular project gives us the ability to meet that objective that we have. This is something that council has talked about repeatedly. It is something that the citizens have spoken in favor of frequently. So in that context, it's a good project, and it accomplish es a lot of goals and objectives that we all have in common here. A couple of things I do want to point out in the staff presentation. If I could get the overhead camera, please. We'll refer you to page two here on your packet there. I want to point out in the staff presentation here that, quote, the proposed NR6 district permits uses that are generally compatible with the existing land use pattern in this area. Staff does note that although the density is a little bit higher than what they would think it would normally be, it is compatible, and they do mention that in their report. I also want to point out on page three -- I want to echo something that was mentioned earlier there. Section 3A in the middle of the paragraph there, staff mentions that -- let's see here. The surrounding area was between three and five dwelling units per acre, and although nearby subdivisions are currently zoned in R3 and R4, much of the area was developed prior to the adoption of the current DDC and slightly exceed the current zoning limitations in some areas. So I want to point that out. In a sense, what we're saying is probably somewhere between 3.5 and 5.5. The average of that is going to be 4.5. Our 33 units on the 7.14 acres, that comes out at 4.6. We are within one-tenth of a point of what the average is for that area. And the project is not looking to go to the max on this. We're just trying to make it to where it works and provide a product so that our community can continue to develop. The surrounding land use there, we do have NR6 right next to it, right here in the immediate vicinity. We also have some commercial right here on the corner with the church, and then we also have some multifamily zoning there right on the corner in the immediate proximity. So the development of this property for it being isolated, I would disagree with that. I think it's compatible. The staff identifies that in the report. And again, overall, this is something that council has given a directive to that we want to accomplish for our community. The citizens are in favor of it. It's something that needs to happen. And this is an opportunity for us to move forward on something that is a vital goal in our community. So I would ask and appreciate your support. I'm happy to take any questions. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you, Chair. Thanks, Mark, and thanks for your comments. How would you address the concern of when we have a zoning change, it cannot be tied to a project? So you point out many aspects of the project, which look good, but if for some reason the project doesn't happen, and you know this, then we've got an NR6 on this that could open up the door to higher density than what you're proposing to put in. Absolutely. So kind of a little background on this particular project. We were presented with multiple opportunities to develop this property and actually had some folks that came to us with some of those types of uses that I think would raise a level of concern in the community that we were not comfortable with. And in our discussions about the direction on which we wanted to go with this particular project, we wanted to choose a project and a product that accomplished goals of our organization. Our goals in our organization are to provide affordable housing, okay? And there is another organization here in town that does a similar, has a similar goal, but they do it in the context, generally speaking, of multifamily properties that are mainly rental type activities. Our goal is to provide home ownership at an affordable rate . That is kind of how we differentiate ourselves from that other organization. Both are definitely needed, and I don't discount that issue . But to answer your question there, the reason we went with this particular proposal was specifically to address the issue and the concerns that we knew would come up in the community. If I lived there in that community where the gentleman spoke a little while ago, I wouldn't want a bunch of duplex es and townhomes stacked right on top of each other. I wouldn't want that. And from an organizational standpoint, our goal is to provide home ownership. And that doesn't mean, you know, duplex ownership, things like that. That means home ownership. And this is an opportunity to accomplish that goal. So thank you. Sorry for rambling. That's good. Can I continue? Sure. Continue, Commissioner. So I know you, so you've got an active option contract on this particular land with this particular, for this particular development. And you selected or are trying to get that through because of what the project is, correct? And it's not one of these other entities that is interested in building a multifamily development. Okay, thanks. Thank you. I see no other questions. Thank you for your comments. Thank you for your time. Appreciate your support. Next court I have is Jeff Withers, 1000 Lindhurst Lane, Denton, in support. Another item. Can you tell us which item that will be? He said he wrote the card. Yeah, he did. Okay. Thank you. Next court I have is Roger Daly, 1227 Bayfield Street, Dent on, in support. Hello, I'm Roger Daly. I'm a resident of the immediate area and I'm also involved in this project. And I guess the real question here is can we provide affordable housing with the accelerated cost of housing, the products that go into it? That's the real key here. For us to deliver a product that your sons or daughters can afford, because what's happened at $270,000, which is the median price last year, that was up 16% over the year before. So our goal is to be able to deliver a product that these people can buy and have home ownership and have all the attributes of raising a family, not in an apartment. But for me, where I live, which is a townhome project, and the traffic, I understand this gentleman's concern. As far as the brick veneer goes, brick veneer is just that. It's aesthetic. It's not structural. A lot of people think it is, and it's not. Our product will be architecturally sound and would blend into the neighborhood, but I'm for this. Do you have any questions? I see no questions. Thank you for your comments. Next card I have is Kim McKibbin, 1306 West Hickory, in opposition. Good evening. My name is Kim McKibbin. It's 1306 West Hick ory Street in Denton. I guess I'm going to be probably the lone wolf on this one, and I am here to say that I have to agree with the Planning and Zoning Commission. This is not about affordable housing. This is about zoning. This is about sticking to our future land use plan. This is about making sure that the things that we think are going in are absolutely going in and are not going to get changed later. I did go out and look at the area prior to coming here tonight. What they showed you pictures of do not match anything that 's in that area. I'm probably the only one here that's going to speak that doesn't have something to gain from this. Everyone I've heard, this is our project, and we're trying to provide this. I don't know how many people in Denton make $75,000 a year. Not as many as you might think. $250,000 for a 1,500 square foot house may be reasonable, but you also have to consider, even with that, they're looking at 7,000 square foot lots. That's a 70 by 100. When I lived over on Denton Street in a 1920s house, the lot was 100 feet by 60 feet wide. So the houses will not have space around them in these areas. They will fill up most of the lot. I don't know how much space the roads are going to take up. And even when I was trying to get through some of the neighborhoods tonight, you cannot put two cars down the streets if cars are parked on both sides. I doubt that any of these houses that there will be less than two cars in them. I also would question from being an accessibility expert, how accessible are these little two story houses? Is there a living area and a full bath on the bottom floor? Are all the bedrooms on the top floors? How long is this going to be a livable alternative for some of the people they're looking at? But back to it once again, I am in, I'm trying to support the future land use plan that we have going forward. We will have brand new zoning things by the first of the year possibly. So we need to be looking forward and to stick with what we 've got. So this is a zoning issue, and I think that the heart strings are being pulled out on affordability housing. Thank you. >> Thank you for your comments. I don't see any questions. I have one other card that's not marked with an agenda item from Prudence Sanchez. I don't know if you want to speak on this item or not. Okay. And you're marked in support. >> My name is Prudence Sanchez. I live at 711 Jackson Street here in Denton. My husband is Alfredo Sanchez, who recused himself. I am one of the associate executive directors at Denton Affordable Housing. I started out as a board member there because I do believe that we need affordable housing here in Denton. I just wanted to say that I am here in support of, excuse me, of the project, and not the project, but of the affordable housing that we need here in Denton. And I believe that when we say that it's a zoning issue, we 're really looking at form over substance. And I think that it's important to use the land in the highest and best use that is available for us. And I spoke to two people just this week, two young couples , and they work 40-hour weeks. And my heart hurt, and I don't mind pulling heartstrings because we all have them. She said, I don't think, you know, we'll ever be able to afford a house. She says, I don't even think that's on the radar. And she works 40 hours a week. Her husband does, too. And I just believe that owning a home is still a part of the American dream. I am in support of multifamily as well. But when you drive up to your house and that's your house, that means something to you. And when you hear, you know, these young couples spending over $1,200 a month on rent, and you know that that's a large part of their income, it just doesn't make sense. I'm a landlord, so I don't bash landlords. But I still believe that people who work hard every day should have the ability and the option to own a home. And you know, when we -- the difference between nine houses and not providing affordable housing, that just doesn't add up. So I'm in support of it. And I hope that the zoning planning and the zoning commission take that into consideration. Thank you. Thank you. This is a public hearing. I don't have any other cards. Anyone else who would like to speak on this item, please come forward at this time. Anyone else? Seeing none, I will close the public hearing and I will open the floor for discussion or a motion. Commissioner Smith. I make a motion to accept -- or I make a motion to approve the zoning change from NR2 to NR6. Just a quick public statement about this. We are so close to it being NR4 and NR4 being classified as a low density and that within the staff analysis that we are already pretty much right on the cusp of -- or if not already amicable to what other areas around that plot are already doing, being that they are already close between three and five dwellings per acre. That it doesn't seem like it will be that abrupt of a change. Also with there an adjoining apartment complex being -- or not adjoining but caddy corner apartment complex already having high density in that area, I don't think NR6 with the project that's proposed really would be that outlandish . So I do make that motion. Okay. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. And I second that with a public comment too. I normally probably wouldn't. Ms. McKibbin, I appreciate her comments always and we're usually in agreement with each other. And I think in another situation, and I have in fact our last meeting, I was opposed to where one zone was encro aching and another one where it shouldn't have. But again, the product here that's being presented is to me it's amenable to the area. There is -- we all know there is a great need for affordable housing. And this is a good opportunity to take advantage of it. So I second the motion. Okay. We have a first and a second. Any further discussion? Commissioner Ellis. Thank you, Chair. Just a couple of comments. Zoning issues I take very seriously. We all do. Knowing the area here, hearing what I heard tonight and all the concerns, I do feel like this is a fit for this area and that the zoning change to NR6 is something that I can support. Okay. We have a first and a second for approval. And I will call for a vote on the board. That motion is going to carry 4-0. You need to go on. Thank Commissioner Smith for coming up. He had a prior commitment and we were shorthanded tonight and I appreciate him changing his schedule to come help us get this item. And I appreciate everybody's understanding and let us change the order of our agenda. With that, we will invite Commissioner Sanchez back and let the room clear. With that, we will return to our regular agenda. And so we're going to move to what is item two, consider approval of our zoning commission meeting minutes. And the Chair would entertain a motion for these two items individually. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you, Chair. I move we approve October 25th planning and zoning meeting minutes. Okay. Commissioner Beck. Second. Okay. I move and second. Any discussion? Seeing none, call for a vote on the board. The motion is going to carry 4-0. Chair would entertain a motion on the amendments for November 8th. Commissioner Beck. I move we approve the minutes for November the 8th. Thank you. Okay. Do we have a second? We do, Chair. I'll second. Okay. Thank you, Commissioner Ellis. We have a first and a second. Seeing no request for discussion, I'll call for a vote on the board. That motion is going to carry 4-0. That will take us to our consent agenda. Commissioner Beck. I move we approve the consent agenda. Okay. The Chair will second and we will call for a vote on the board. Commissioner Sanchez. We missed your vote. Are you for or against? Okay. I thought I hit it. Let's see. For. For? Okay. So we have that motion will carry 4-0. The consent agenda is approved. Well, just as a point of order on our item four for individual consideration, our planning and zoning commission calendar, we had some discussion on that item in our work session, and there were a couple of dates that we were going to take a look at. And so that item will come back before us at our next meeting. I believe it will be December the 13th. So that will come back before us. Do we need to take a motion on that for continuing since it 's not a notice? I assume it's our pleasure. Okay. So just an announcement on that. So that will move us back to our public hearing section. And at this time, I'm going to open the public hearing for item A, which is Z17-0025. This is an item that the applicant has requested to be continued. So the chair would entertain a motion to that effect to date certain of January the 10th. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. I move we approve a continuance on this to a date certain of January 10th. Okay. Commissioner Sanchez. I second that motion. Okay. I second. I have a first and a second. This item will remain open, and we will vote on this motion to continue to date certain January 10th. Commissioner Sanchez, I think yours. That motion will carry four to zero. We have already worked through item 5B. That will move us to item 5C. And I'm going to open the public hearing for Z17-008 and call on Julie Wyatt for presentation of this item. We will have a second public hearing on this item in regards to SUP, and that will be a separate presentation and will be a separate vote. So although these are two -- first of all, I'm Julie Wyatt, Senior Planner with the City of Denton. And so I'm presenting two cases tonight. They're related to each other, and so I'm going to kind of combine the presentations together, but it will be a separate action when you move forward on that. So right now I'm presenting Z17-08 and S17-10, the pall adium. So the two requests before you tonight, the first one is a zoning case. It's to consider a rezoning from community mixed use general district to neighborhood residential mixed use. And then the second request is for a specific use permit for multifamily development. The property is about a seven and a half acre property. It's located adjacent to Sherman and Poinsettia, just south of Loop 288. So like I said, we're going to first go through the zoning item. And so these are depictions of the proposed rezoning. So we've got the existing zoning here. It currently has a CMG zoning district that's all of the pink, and they are proposing to rezone it to the NRMU, which is the red. And as you can see, that is adjacent to an existing NRMU, and it would be a logical continuation of this existing zoning pattern that exists across Sherman to the west. So the criteria for approval for rezoning cases are first, does the rezoning meet the future land use element of Denton Plan 2030? And then second, does the proposed rezoning facilitate adequate provision of public infrastructure? So first we're going to look at the future land use element . So this is in our Denton Plan 2030. That plan designated this area as community mixed use. And this is intended to provide a mix of uses in terms of commercial service and moderate to higher density residential. Staff looked at this and determined that the proposed NRMU meets this future land use. So typically we see that CMG or the community mixed use in the future land use plan is typically CMG. However, because of the adjacency to the single family residential in the neighborhoods, staff felt that NRMU was more appropriate in this area because it still permitted that mix of uses. It still has some commercial uses and some residential uses , but it was at a lower scale, so it would be more compatible with the nearby residential. In looking at public facilities, there's water and sewer available on Point Setup. Impact fees would be assessed at the time of development and building permit. There are two roads that we'll look at for Sherman Drive. Currently it's a four lane undivided, but it is considered a primary arterial within the city of Denton. So the ultimate roadway segment of a primary arterial is a six lane divided road. Dedications and improvements on Sherman may be required at the time of platting. Point Setup is the other road that is adjacent to the subject property. It is currently developed as a two lane undeveloped road with parking on either side. This is in conformance with the designation of the road as a main street mixed use collector. Per our Denton Development Code, those are to be designed as two lane undivided roads with parking on either side. As with Sherman, at the time of platting there may be additional right of way dedications or improvements required. In this instance there will probably be sidewalks required on the north side of Point Setup. And platting will be required for development. I know there's been some discussion about some of the growth and the roadways and the impacts of new development in this area. So we wanted to bring forward a plat that was recently approved by this commission earlier this year and it's in fact going to be filed soon. And it is for the Harvest Hill neighborhood. So we kind of overlaid it on the existing aerial to show you how the new subdivision will match up with the existing development. So you can see here that Point Setup currently it does dead end at about this location. It will curve to the north once this neighborhood is put in and will eventually once the Loop 288 access roads are constructed it will join up with that access road. It also then there is another street that then ties into Point Setup and provides access for some of those neighborhoods. So that is the intent and the future plan for that roadway. Julie, can I ask a question? Sure. While we're here we have plats come before us a lot of times and we don't see anything actually develop. The parcel that you brought up and brought to our attention that's currently under development. They've already rough cut the streets so it's not just paper and some day they're currently developing that and that infrastructure is going in. Absolutely, yes sir. Okay, thank you. So although the request does meet the future land use and does meet the intent of that, we did want to take a little deeper dive on this request and just look at the compatibility of the adjacent development and surrounding zoning. So currently the property has a CMG zoning district and that's one of our commercial zoning districts and it allows a broad array of commercial uses. Some of those include vehicle repair, motels, big box retail, auto sales, quick vehicle servicing with no SUP is required and that's a gas station. And then a drive through with no SUP required. So something like a McDonald's could go in by rights today on this property under current zoning. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. At this point then these items here that are allowed in CMG , they're not allowed in RMU. Is that correct? No sir. Or for instance the quick vehicle servicing or the drive through like a drive through bank or something that would require a specific use permit and additional scrutiny by the Planning and Zoning Commission and approval by council. Yes sir. Great, thank you. So as we talked in a work session, we see community mixed use near residential areas all the time in Denton. We see it on Teasley, we see it on University. The difference between that CMG and this CMG is that that typically backs up to residential. So you will have the CMG fronting the primary arterial within the residential, the rear property lines abutting to each other. In those instances, landscape buffers are required and in some cases screening walls. So it provides that mitigation for any nuisances, light, noise and then also controls the access to those residential areas. So that's the difference in where we typically see CMG in this city and in this instance. In this instance CMG is near to residential properties or within proximity of residential properties but it's across the street. So they're actually facing each other. So no buffers would be required and that physical mechanism of backing up wouldn't be there to limit that access or require that buffer. And so that factored into our analysis. Also under current zoning, multifamily is a permitted use. It does have two limitations. First, L4, that the multifamily use must be a part of a mixed use development or obtain approval of a specific use permit. The limitation 6L6 requires commercial uses on the ground floor of multifamily developments along any collector, arterial or avenue. So in this instance multifamily could be developed on this side if it was a part of a mixed use development but that commercial would have to be located on poinsettia on the ground floor facing those residential properties that are existing . NRMU limits the types of developments. So it limits the commercial uses. It does have some commercial uses but it does reduce the scale of that and the intensity of those uses. It pulls back some of those uses like the auto sales or the large retail. NRMU would provide a logical extension or a logical transition between the single family residential to the south and the commercial development that you do typically see along highways like loop 288 or arterials like Sherman Drive. You typically see commercial development in those areas but to have a transition area to provide some buffer between those uses will mitigate some of those nuisances that may be caused by commercial development. So based upon the criteria for approval in the development code, first the requested NRMU is consistent with the future land use because it is a mixed use zoning district. And it also provides that appropriate transition between the districts to allow some mix of uses but with a reduced scale and intensity. That concludes the zoning portion. If anybody has any questions, otherwise I'll just start with the specific use. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. Just real quickly, and maybe I probably should have waited to the SGP, but could you explain egress and egress has to be on point set and not Sherman? Certainly. For either CMG or NRMU? Certainly, yes. And that access requirement spans zoning districts. So it would be the requirement regardless of what the zoning district was. But the DENT development code treats arterials in a special way in that the intent of an arterial is to move cars as quickly as possible from one point of the city to the other, across the city. And so it limits the access to arterials, limits the number of driveways that businesses can have on arterials. And so the code states that if a development can get access from a lesser street, in this case Poinsettia, which is a collector, then they must take access from that lesser street. That's a code requirement for all developments. So it's clear to me that regardless of what goes over there , CMG or NRMU, there's going to be some intense development there as opposed to single family. We're not going to be able to build single family resid ences there. It's not permitted under friend zoning. Okay. Thank you. All right. So we'll move to the specific use permit. So the criteria for approval are in Chapter 6 of the DENT development code. And essentially our analysis is the compatibility between the uses. We want to make sure that the proposed use would not impede the normal and orderly development of the surrounding vacant property, that the parking and the traffic and the access do not create a nuisance or unreasonable nuisance around the property, that there would be any nuisance prevention, you know, odors or particulate matter, that those would be abated, and that there's adequate landscaping and screening, and that architectural compatibility is appropriate for the character of the area. So those are some of the analysis points we look at. In terms of this request, they are proposing a traditional multifamily development of 150 units, a combination of one, two, and three bedroom units. They are proposing stone accents with earth tone colors for the exterior building materials and color palette. And this development is intended to be a mixed income development. And in fact, City Council approved a resolution of support for this proposed development in February of this year. And just to talk briefly about this site plan, a word of caution, this is conceptual. It hasn't gone through all of the reviews with the site plan, but it's generally showing you what they're proposing. So yes, they are proposing access off of Poinsettia. They do have the buildings oriented adjacent to the street. The Denton Development Code requires for multifamily developments that the parking be placed behind the buildings to reduce any visual impacts for parking and so that the buildings are moved forward. They would also have to meet all street tree, parking lot landscaping, and tree canopy requirements. In addition to architectural requirements, multifamily in the City of Denton requires 40% masonry. So that will all be something that will be reviewed during site plan. These are the conceptual elevations that the applicant submitted and as well as their color palette. So when we analyze the request based upon the criteria of approval, first of all, does it meet the Denton -- does it meet Denton Plan 2030? And multifamily development does meet the intent of community mixed use because it is a moderate density housing or higher density housing. So it does meet that mix of uses in that -- intended for that area. There's also another goal in the Denton Plan 2030 about housing choice and affordable housing. And that is to expand those choices for our Denton residents not only in affordable housing but also in location. So this meets that goal that plan set forth. The proposed multifamily would create a physical buffer between the neighborhoods and the commercial corridor. So under current zoning, multifamily could be located on the street but it would have to have a commercial component on the lower floor which would be facing those residential properties. So by rezoning to NRMU and then the additional SUP approval , it would ensure that there would be residential properties at that location. So there would be some sort of comfort that that residential would be there across the street from existing residential. So it would have that -- those two uses are more compatible together and it would remove that requirement to have that commercial facing those residential properties. The SUP for multifamily would allow those land uses to transition. So it would provide a transitional area. We've got lower density to the south of the property and then you move to that NRMU 12 with the townhome development on Poinsettia and then the multifamily and then to the commercial. So it would allow that gradual transition of uses from residential to commercial properties. The proposed development must meet all Denton development code requirements for screening, parking, lighting, street trees and tree canopy. And that is -- it's one of those things like keeping the parking behind the buildings to make sure that those visual impacts are muted. To have those street trees, you know, Poinsettia has the most lovely street trees, that neighborhood. They've got the street trees in the parkway and it just looks so nice. So that's something that would be required of the proposed development as well. And then the muted color palette that they're proposing is consistent with the nearby residential development. Public notification was sent out for both requests. We've received 19 in opposition. Seven of those are within that 200 foot buffer and we did talk in the work session that that 6% of the property area within that 200 foot buffer. We received one response in favor and you can see that in the green. The responses in opposition are in the red. There are conditions that staff proposes on this first that a full site plan will be submitted to the city just to ensure that it does meet all those Dent on development code requirements. And that the exterior building materials must maintain those muted colors. So based upon those conditions, staff recommends approval of the request because it is consistent with not only the future land use but the goals of housing choice within the city of Denton. And that we feel it's an appropriate transition between what's existing there and what will eventually be developed there at the corner of 288 and Sherman Drive. And I'll stand for any questions and the applicant's here. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Julie. Could you go back to that site plan that showed the layout of these apartments? You mentioned there would be street trees. Is that what those looks like three? This isn't the landscape plan. There will be a landscape plan in addition to the site plan . Okay. So there's going to be more there than those three dots. And I'm assuming that the apartments will be the back sides will be facing point seven, not the entrances. They'll be facing in towards a parking lot. So it will be kind of like a wall there? Well, the code has pretty specific requirements for multif amily. So it does require that there be that it be oriented toward the street and that stairwells can't be the prominent feature. So that's why, I mean, and that is something that they'll get to when they get to the building permit stage. But, you know, we want to make sure that we provide pedestrian access as well in addition to that it presents well to the street. You know, sometimes the backs of buildings don't always look the same as the front of the building. So we want to make sure that that architecture that presents to the street looks just as good as where people are walking in. That's the intent of that requirement. Okay, gotcha. Thank you. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you, Joe. Julie, can you just give a little bit more detail on what it is that City Council approved in February? Sure. So they are they are using for their financing structure something called housing tax credits through the state of Texas. As part of that application, they went to our City Council to ask for a recommendation of support for their proposal so that they can present that as a package to the state of Texas to try to secure those housing tax credits for their financing. They may be able to say that they're they might be able to provide a little more about how that that process works, but that's that's what the City Council looked at. Julie, I'd like for you to go back to the slide that has the list of what can go there and CMG. You don't mind the uses. So currently, I am clear your point in the commercial, typically on the north side of points that would be housing in the backs of those homes, what about commercial? That's what we typically see. Yes. This is not that same type scenario that we would normally have. Correct. And so what we're faced with as a commission is, and I don 't want to disperse anybody's project kind of the lesser you could have under right right now you could do McDonald's, what a burgers dry cleaners facing out on to point set up and all the traffic and all the use that goes with that. Yes, sir. By right. Yes, sir. Can't do anything about it. This is long. It meets our development criteria design criteria is approved. Any uses that are permitted in that CMG district could go in by right with without any public hearing, they would just have to plat and then and then meet the site plan and building permit requirements. And so with that matter of fact that we have, instead of these homes having any kind of protection of another line of houses to the north, this actually put some separation between the existing neighborhoods and what ultimately is going to be very high density commercial uses out there on that corner. It's a transition. And that's one of the things that I know we look at a lot of times at this commission is how do we go from low density to high density? We don't have that in this case. We have essentially low density residential here and you can have right across the street, the highest of this razor ranch type projects here. And so by having this apartment community there, it's going to transition the existing neighborhood that's there of low to a medium with apartments. And then on the north side of that, we'll have the high commercial use. And so I just want to make sure that I'm clear and for all of us that are here tonight are clear as what can go there. And so if we don't take action on this tonight, all these other uses can go there by right. Okay. Thank you very much. I don't see any other questions. So thank you so much. I have a lot of cards. And bear with me. I will get through these and hopefully do well on everyone 's names. The first card I have is for Ryan Combs, the applicant. If you'll give us, please come forward and give us your name and address and you'll have 10 minutes to present your project. Thank you so much for allowing me to be here. My name is Ryan Combs. I am with Palladium USA and we are the developer. We've been working on this development for quite a while now. As you saw, we were in front of City Council back in February and Palladium, just a little bit of a background on Palladium, to be very brief, is that we are a privately owned company. We're 140 years old and in a third generation of privately owned. Our world headquarters is in Milan, Italy. Our American headquarters are here in Dallas. And that's where I'm at. And what we have done for the past 140 years is develop -- pardon me, I'm getting over a little bit of stuff so I may have to clear my throat. So I apologize in advance. What we've done for the past 140 years is develop the nicest residential rental communities around the world. And we've got properties that we own in Italy, Rome, Paris, London, really some of the best markets around the world. And we've come here to Dallas about five years ago. So we do that here in the United States as well. We've got a 30-story high-rise that we're developing next door to Liberty Mutual's new headquarters in Plano. And so it's going to be the fanciest, nicest new residential rental development in all of Dallas-Fort Worth. But what we realized about five years ago is that here in North Texas in particular is just experiencing massive growth. And there is -- there's opportunity that comes with that, but there's challenges that come with that. And the city of Denton has realized that there is just a real dramatic, real need for affordable housing. It really is kind of amazing to me. It wasn't that long ago that I bought my first house, and my first house was $110,000. And I look now and I go, okay, so the entry level into a house is $250,000, and that's what's considered affordable these days. The world has really changed very, very rapidly. And so what we started doing about five years ago was taking our same product, our Class A product, and going and transitioning it to serve the workforce that is really just completely priced out of the market. We're talking about child care workers, medical professionals, our public servants. How do these people go and afford a quarter million dollar home? Well, the answer is they can't. And so really what we do is we go build Class A housing. We're looking at developing 150 units. It'll cost us $26 million, which is about $170,000 a unit. So this is Class A development, but we're positioning it to serve the workforce, the people that need good quality housing and want to eventually buy that $250,000 house but just can't get there yet. And so that's what we do. We are not a merchant builder. We don't build properties and flip them and sell them. Because we're privately owned, we build properties and hold them long term. We've got stuff in Western Europe that we've held for over 100 years. And that's what we plan to do here. We plan to be long-term neighbors. We've come to this area, and I think staff did a great job of really kind of laying it out. We started looking at CMG, and we really started developing . We're buying seven and a half acres from a gentleman who owns about 20. There's about 30 acres there, and he owns 20 of it. And so we started working with him on doing a mixed-use plan inside this CMG, which we are allowed to do, a multif amily development inside that. But then we get to this L6 requirement that requires commercial on the bottom floor, and it really just does not make sense. And so I think staff made a great -- framed it really, really well that in our MU, this zoning allows us to really create a buffer between what is going to ultimately be high-intensity commercial uses and our quality affordable housing and the residential that 's existing to our south. So with that, I'm glad to answer any questions that you may have. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Mr. Combs, for your presentation. Appreciate it. One of the biggest concerns we've heard from residents in the community is a concern for increased traffic. Have you got any kind of response for them that would allay their concerns? Has a traffic impact analysis been done yet? We are currently -- and I have our civil engineer here with me, and he might be able to speak more specifically to this . I can speak generally in that the city is requiring us to do a traffic impact analysis. I know we are looking at pretty much all of the intersections in the area around, and we're going to have to comply with whatever that third- party traffic impact analysis tells us we need to do. We will -- I don't think we have a choice. I think we'll have to comply with it. I think one area where you may be asked to go above and beyond -- and just let me throw it out. Would you consider, you know, to offset more traffic hitting points that are going out on Sherman, would it be conceivable to create a right-turn lane there so that left -- so not everybody's in one lane to take a left or a right. A dedicated right-turn lane there? Yes. I don't know if we can see what kind of room we have there, but, you know, I know that our traffic impact analysis is going to look at the loading of how many cars can fit and turn right and what that's going to do at the peak times of the day. Okay. So that's something that we're going to study and make sure that it's adequately taken care of. And this TIA will take into consideration this development -- this housing development? That's right. It will take into consideration -- How much of that will come down points -- -- the flats and everything else that's already approved in the city. Yes, sir. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I have no other questions. Thank you. Thank you. The next card I have is Sharon Herman in opposition. After Ms. Herman, I have to be followed by Rebecca Garcia. I'm Sharon Herman. I live at 1305 Manton, which is one house off the corner of Poinsettia. I'm not -- I don't usually come and do things like this. Kind of bear with me. I'm probably not your most eloquent speaker. Were you allowed to ask the developer any questions? Typically, you could ask a question here and then we could take it back. Ask him? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Because as I understand it, they're looking at -- now I know these two proposals are kind of blended together. I assume that one depends on the other one's passage. That's correct. That's correct. That's what I understand. Yes, ma'am. Okay. And if you change it, it's right now CMG. Yes. So these things can go in. I'm looking at, you know, for the size of the parcel, you can't really put a motel there unless you put like a little tiny one. Big box retail, we're not really looking at a two-story Pennys or Macy's or anything like that. I'm looking at a vehicle repair, auto sales, McDonald's, Whataburger. Who knows? Maybe we'd get a Texas Roadhouse. But none of which are generally two-story buildings. They're all level, one story. 150 units with two to three-story possibility. We're talking about adding 300 cars all coming out on Poins ettia. All right. That's assuming there's only two cars per dwelling. The likelihood of that probably is not real feasible. So maybe we're looking at 450 cars we're adding to Poinsett ia on top of the additional traffic that we're adding with Harvest Hill when they get their finished subdivision going . Everything's going to have to exit onto Sherman Drive, okay , because there's no other way. Unless they decide to cut right in front of my house and take Minton and cut through the subdivision that way. We have a lot of small children in the area. Makes it a little scary. And if any of you all have ever tried to exit the loop on Football Friday, okay, right? You can't do it. Now add 450 more cars to that possibility. It's not conceivable. The infrastructure is not there for this development yet. Would it be maybe eventually? Yes, but I think you're trying to put the cart before the horse. The businesses, I don't see them decreasing the property values as much because as I'm sorry, I forgot your name, said that they have to have buffers. So if you put businesses in, we're looking at some sign of cement walls, brick walls, something like that that's going to buffer the neighborhood, okay? Whereas the apartment buildings don't have to have that. Maybe they have to have some nice landscaping. But basically what I'm looking at is two or three story people sitting out on their balcony looking at my backyard like a fishbowl. All right? And that's not why we bought in that neighborhood. This is not a startup neighborhood. This is one of your better neighborhoods in Denton. I think it's going to turn it into a startup neighborhood. Thank you. Thank you. I have a question for you. I'm sorry. Come back to my question. You're back. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Sharon, for your presentation. Just one quick question. You made a comment about your concern about apartments dev aluing property. Okay. Is that just assumed or do you have some data that would support that conclusion? I don't because I really didn't know what to expect coming to this meeting at all. Okay. Had I really realized what was going on, I probably would have had my own slide presentation. Okay. Okay. I do wonder why though, as long as you ask, why a traffic study wasn't done prior to the voting on this instead of saying, oh, well, we'll do a traffic study after we approve it. Because it sounds like it's already been semi-approved without the community input. I can't answer that. I'll let somebody else. But I just want to point out, and I live up the road from now. I'm on Sherman Drive. Were you aware that if you go down Coronado there, two blocks off Sherman, on Bell, you have a row. You have the Section 8 housing. You have a row of townhouses on the south side of Coronado. And then you have all those apartments up there. I do. I haven't seen anything that devalues property with that condition there. So I would question whether that's a certainty that apartments are automatically going to devalue. Do I believe that? Yes, I do. Understand? I understand you believe that. Well, you've got potentially 300 plus people coming into all those people that are in Colorado and all down there. They're all coming up Sherman trying to get on the loop. So they're all coming up there. Now, those people are going to be coming into the people coming off of Poinsettia, which is the other 300 to 450 vehicles that are coming on there. That can't not devalue your property because traffic patterns and quiet and noise reduction is all part of what makes our neighborhood a really nice neighborhood. Okay. I have one more question for you. Commissioner Sanchez. Well, I actually had you mentioned about buffers. I think they mentioned earlier that if the business come in , they'll be facing, they'll also be facing Poinsettia. So they wouldn't be putting buffers because they'd be facing right, they'd be coming off into Poinsettia. And you mentioned that they would have to put buffers between Poinsettia and... They'll have to put something because they're not going to just remove the entire curb and open that whole thing up to the business. So you're going to have to have an entrance type of thing. Okay. And they're not going to be looking in my backyard. I was just kind of, I was just going by what I thought I heard that they'd be coming in. Yeah, I thought you said buffers too. But I thought you said if there were businesses, they wouldn't have buffers. The buffer would be the road. Is that correct? Sure. I'm sorry, I forgot to ask you. So because there is a right of way separating the single family residential uses and the commercial zoning, no buff ers would be required. Okay, for the businesses? Business, no, yeah, nothing. And there's nothing required for the apartments? No, ma'am, only when those uses are abutting. Okay. So the businesses might not have buffers, but we don't lose anything because the apartments won't even... We can't do two, so if you have some comments you would like to make so we can get them on the record, people are watching and they can't hear you. I'm sorry. My statement was just if the businesses don't have any buff ers, but the apartments and things don't have to have any buffers. So really it's a wash. We haven't lost anything either way other than the two- story, the 450 vehicles. Leaving in the morning, coming home at night compared to the businesses, we're not going to get 450. I don't care what kind of business you put there. You are not going to get 450 cars there at 8 o'clock in the morning and 5 o'clock at night. Okay, great. I'll ask you later for a clarification also. Will you clarify in your presentation, is multifamily allowed there already? Yes, sir. At this site? Yes, sir. So multifamily can go on this site as is. The only difference is on the SUP is whether it's going to have retail on the bottom. Yes, sir. So multifamily is allowed on the site as is. So this is essentially a down zone from what's currently allowed there to go from CMG to the NRBU. Yes, sir. Okay, thank you. The next speaker I have is Rebecca Garcia to be followed by Jean Golf. Hi, my name is Becky Garcia and I live right on the corner. My concern is I always knew something was coming in there. We thought it was going to be some more town homes. We thought it was, you know, we take the low income. If they don't want them at that low place, we'll take the low income houses. You know, my home is there. It's not my house. It's my home. It's their home. We have a really, I'm getting emotional, we have a really, really nice community. We like each other with a couple of, two that maybe lets their dog, you know, pick, they don't pick up their poop. But we like each other. We know who we are. We know almost everybody in the neighborhood. One of my big concerns is sitting right there with these older ladies. They live on the town homes. When they first put the town homes in, they were going to go two stories. And we thought we don't want two stories because you're going to be looking into our yards. I have a pool. I don't think they want to see me swimming in my pool. I don't want them looking in my pool. So I'm thinking, I understand the apartments are going to go in. But they're not really homes. They're apartments. We live in homes. We have children. I've got students that live in the complex. When I moved in, my friend said, "You are moving into a community where your kids you teach, they're in your community." I said, "That's where I want to live. I want to see them grow up." And they have. They've grown up. They have kids. They come back. We're all still there. So, okay, McDonald's would be okay. Car dealership, maybe not. Can there possibly be a buffer instead of a three-story apartment right on our poinsettia to maybe two and then go up? Does it have to be just three right in front of us? I mean, is that a consideration? Or have they already decided on what they're doing? Because, you know, if you go in our neighborhood, you see people walking, the early birds walking at -- I don't know what time you guys get up. At 7 o'clock in the morning, they're walking. They're walking at 2 o'clock. We got kids all over the place, scooters, bikes. We got the dad who's training his kid I know to be a marathon because they're running all the time. The kids play basketball out there on the streets. Where are these kids going to go? There's no park. Even if you put a sidewalk, there's no place to go. So what are they going to do? I mean, so I understand we're going to be a buffer, but maybe, you know, have a little bit more. And you haven't even considered the -- I got 20 seconds -- the Sherman's Crossing that's going across. I mean, so we're getting ready to get inundated with a ton of traffic. Thank you. Oh, and Mr. Beck, thank you. I know you gave us a lot of information on our -- so we kind of helped us. Thank you very much. Thank you for your comments. Next speaker is Janine Goff to be followed by Camille Haz ard. Good evening. My name is Jean Marie Goff, and I live at 1301 Manton. Excuse me. I'm in the corner. I'm Sharon's neighbor. I've lived in my home for 16 years, and it is a home. Becky mentioned that behind us when the townhomes went in, typically you think of a townhome as being two-story. We came to Planning and Zoning and told them our concerns, and the builders ended up building single-level townhomes. It's very unusual. They look more like quadruplexes or triplexes or at the very far end of the street duplexes. And as it turned out, I think, as was already noted, many of the women that are sitting here live in those townhomes. It's a lifesaver for women and older people who don't want to climb the stairs. I tell you what, I tried to buy one of those a couple of years ago, and you can't. I mean, people are holding onto them. They do not want to sell those. I mean, they are a moneymaker. They're a cash cow. That's, in my opinion, what should go across the street on Poinsettia. One of my concerns is because so many people that live in the townhomes are retired people, we're looking at an apartment complex that will appeal to younger people. I'm not so sure what kind of a good mix that is for the neighborhood. I'm also concerned about, of course, generation of the traffic. I do think that the NRMU is a good change. I've read the comparisons, and I do think it's a good move to move to that away from the CMG. I also want to mention that I would be happier to see townh omes go over there instead of apartments, because as Becky said, we are homeowners, not as many ren ters in the neighborhood. I am concerned about three-story. It was written in the document, the staff analysis, that my community consisted of one- and two-story homes. There are no two-story homes in my neighborhood. So when these three-story apartments go in, it's going to look very different. I mean, not two-story, but they are going to be three-story with all of our one-story homes. So I have a concern about three-story homes. And as Sharon said, the traffic, trying to get in and out of the neighborhood, even when Poinsettia opens up at the other end, there'll be a lot of traffic. But my concern is the three-stories, the traffic, the type of people who come in with the apartments. The other thing is they haven't addressed, they have asked for the lower income subsidies. What percentage of the apartments are going to be for this group of people who meet the 50 to 60% of the median income ? That's another thing, another concern that we have in our neighborhood. So I thank you very much for your time. >> Thank you for coming out to sign and sharing your comments. >> Thank you. >> Next speaker I have is Camille Hazard in opposition to be followed by Leslie Walder. >> Hello, my name is Camille Hazard. I live at 1514 Poinsettia, so I will be a direct neighbor across the street from whatever goes in. We are definitely opposed. As all our neighbors have mentioned, and I'm sure more will come up, it is a community. It is small homes. It feels like a home, even though we live in a townhouse. We do not want to look at a three-story apartment complex. I have a lot of concerns about all of the new development going in. We have 150 homes at the end of Poinsettia going in. We have things across the Sherman and kind of all around us , and the traffic is already bad. I also, when I look at the site plan, I see that there's 150 units, 259 required parking spaces to accommodate that projected. And there's only 268 that they're going to plan to develop for parking spaces. That's completely inadequate. And then they also have on the site plan, it appears to be parking on Poinsettia outside of the apartment complex. And that's really going to ruin our entire community. The aesthetic, the traffic, it's already going to be very tight if you're going to have parking outside. So again, we're completely opposed to that. And we agree that there's children, there's pets. There's our sidewalks are large. There's a lot of people that use Poinsettia as a nice kind of park atmosphere, and it will absolutely demolish that. We would much prefer that this be rezoned for something similar to what we already have, whether they're town homes , condos, something smaller that would be more suitable. And when you're talking about a lot of people have spoken about affordable housing, that's a lot more affordable than $250,000 median home price. So we would prefer something like that. Thank you for coming out in your comments. Next speaker, Leslie Wilder in opposition to the don't have another card after that. Thank you. I am Leslie Wilder on Teal Drive 3903. Teal Drive has been there 13 years, 13 and a half years. Some of these have been much longer. As it has been explained already, these are single story homes, all of them the whole neighborhood. My biggest concern is three story apartments right next to us. It's going to totally change the atmosphere of our neighborhood. But my bigger concern is the parking on Poinsettia and the access on Poinsettia, I think, that you had already shared. So how can we address that? That they're not walking out of the apartments onto Poins ettia and parking there? Because right now, we can't have two cars pass on that street as it is, because there's parking on both sides. And so we're going to add a lot more people parking on those streets. I think it's going to be a problem. I think it needs to be considered. And then I have a question for you. Can you explain a little bit in more detail what the mixed income means? We probably have to call on staff, or if staff can't address that, possibly the applicant. We'll call on the applicant to answer that question for you . Sure. So this is exactly what went in front of City Council back in February. And so we were applying for these housing tax credits. And so what we have is we have 150 units, 57 of those units , so a little over a third are just completely unrestricted. So those are four. There's no restrictions other than we do background checks on everybody that comes in. You know, one of the things that, you know, I've got -- I live in a single-family home. The house right behind me just went up for rent. There's a lot of speculators all over DFW right now. And the house behind me just went up for rent to some single people. That happened to be very nice. But if that had been rented to a sex offender, I legally have no way to go keep that person from moving into that house. We can discriminate on those things, and we do discriminate on those things, which is why we do background checks. Fair housing allows us to discriminate as long as we do it equally across the property. So we do that. As far as what the mix looks like, low income, HUD defines low income as people making 30% of the area median income. The area median income is $73,000 for the Dallas MSA, which is what we are in right here. 30% of that would be people making in the low 20s. That is a lot of the HUD housing, the Section 8 housing, that type of stuff. That's not what this is. 57 of our units will be completely unrestricted. The majority of what's left is going to be serving people making 50 to 60% of the area median income. So you're talking about people making the 30s and $40,000 a year. These are the working class people that work in our restaurants and our service industry, these type of people. They've got to be able to afford, you know, they've got to be able to have income to be able to afford rent from, you know, say $700 to $900 for a one bedroom, $9,000 to $1,000 for a two bedroom, $1,100 to $1,200 for a three bedroom. So hopefully that answers your question. Great. Thank you for sharing that information. Thank you. I have grown up in Denton my whole life, lived in Narcob at school in Denton, and my father has been on several of the boards here in town. And I will say that I am a little disappointed that this developer did not hold a public hearing for the neighborhood. This is the first public hearing I'm aware of. And so with that in mind, that concerns me with what he plans to do in our neighborhood. So I would like you to consider that. And I appreciate you listening. Thank you. I'm sorry. I got a question for you, Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. Just to try and answer, I'm not the authority, but if this is approved, when they come in, then we look at site plans and they have to meet specific regulations, very tight ones . That will be another opportunity for everybody to come back and make sure we're not putting trash in there. And we will. Good. Good. We want you to. Okay. But just wanted to share that with you. Thank you. Of course. I've not got information before it gets that because it appears that you have already met on this and we were not made aware of that. And I would say, clarification, we have this board has not met on this. This is the first time that this item has come before us. It has gone before City Council, which is a different board . I would concur, too, that it would have liked to see the developer have a community meeting, too. That's always preferable. I agree. But that's their call. Thank you. Thank you. I have a question. I have one other question for you, Commissioner Sanchez. Yes, I wanted to ask you, are you concerned with the changing of the zoning or are you concerned with the. Good question. I would say that the zoning is in our favor as, you know, as has been explained as far as what can go there. So not necessarily the zoning, more the project, I would say, would be concerning. The traffic, my husband works for the city, an engineer. Probably would love me not saying that, but I can say that we're both concerned about those things. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. No other questions. I'm going to have a whole stack of cards and I'm just going to go through before I do that. I want to call this none of the cards marked wish to speak. So if there's anyone else who would like to speak on this item, would ask you to come forward at this time and then I 'll just read through the cards and put the comments in the record. Okay. My name is Michael Cohen. I live at 3918 till and I do not know the legality of what PNC does versus city council. But I would like to express and concur with most of what everybody's saying and it's mainly traffic patterns that we 're concerned because we do have the 150 units or 150 homes that are going in just to the east. Zoning has already been approved for what the south west corner of Sherman and Luke to 88 for shopping center, housing, multifamily. And it's just it's it's too much traffic and I know that it 's already zone for big box or retail. I think the planning and zoning commission, while the zoning is already there, needs to consider the traffic and I know the traffic steadiest part of it. But the second side of this and again, I don't know the legal side of PNC and whether you can take that in consideration. But I think you've heard from enough of the people in the community, the neighborhood that are against this much traffic. And I do think PNC needs to take into consideration what the neighborhood believes should or should not happen in that particular neighborhood. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. If you wouldn't mind, would you fill out we've got the cars . There should be some probably right outside the door. So anyone who would like to speak who hasn't filled out a card, please come on and speak. And then afterward, if you'll give us a fill out a card for us, if you'll give your name and address, sir, please. My name is Scott Hazard. I live at 1514 Point Celia, which, as my wife said, is right across the street from where we're going to be. The fact that we weren't told about this, we really kind of feel like we were blindsided by this, by the developer, which kind of affects the way that we hear that developer when they talk about things that they do, because we feel like they've been a little bit less than candid with us on getting this done. I would like to talk about two things. I'd like to invite each one of you at 530 to come on the loop like you're going towards Sherman and turn left on Sherman Drive from the loop, that left turn right there. It's absolutely horrible. And when you get the stop, when you turn left on Sherman Drive and you don't get hit by somebody trying to turn left to head out of town on Sherman Drive from the other direction, you immediately have to get in that left lane to turn onto Point Celia. That is going to be a nightmare right there. You're going to have cars in the evening backed up all the way to the loop where those people are making that left turn. It's going to be a traffic nightmare. I think what's happening here is we've got this 150 houses going in on one side. We've got Sherman Crossing going in on the other side. And now these guys want to build these apartments right here that all drains out onto Point Celia. I understand the reason that that has to be as far as the code goes. But I think you guys are creating a very dangerous situation at the corner of Point Celia and Sherman Drive. And I think you're also creating a very dangerous situation because those, as soon as these apartments are going to be built, you guys should know as well as I do that there's going to be a solid row of cars on the north side of Point Celia pretty much all the time because that's where those people are going to park because they're not building enough parking inside for these guys. They're creating a parking nightmare. And what they're doing is pushing the parking nightmare over to the people who live on Point Celia to let us deal with all of their overflow parking. And this can't happen. It's going to cause lots of problems. It may cost some lives. It'll definitely destroy the neighborhood that we've got where we walk our dogs, where we let our kids ride their bikes. And I'm going to ask you all at the very least to table this and get some more information. Let's get a detailed traffic analysis. Let's look at all the traffic patterns as they're going to be affected by the extra houses or extra units that are being built essentially on each side of us and then consider that. So I just think if you approve this tonight, you're just doing this willy-nilly and it's going to be a big, big, big mess. Thank you for your comments. Thank you. I wasn't going to fill out a card, but I'm going to now. Hi, I'm Connie Lane. I live two doors down from them. We have the same view, 1602 Poinsettia. I'm 510. One of the questions I had was when Julie had the picture up here of Sherman Drive being six lanes divided, how are you going to get across there if it's divided out of Poins ettia? Is there going to be a ramp we can go across that divided? Is there going to be a new bridge or is it just going to be open where we are all going to get in rags? Just curious. I'll call on Julie to try to answer that. Sure. So primary arterials are typically designed in the city of Denton with the three lanes each way with the boulevard in the middle. And there would be in some areas they have openings where people can turn left. That hasn't been designed at this point. Right now it is intended for Sherman to stay the way it is. I'm not aware of any other improvements that would create that median at this time. Those are just the standards that Denton has for primary arterials eventually. So if that's the standard, that means it will happen. I wonder if you'll come back to the mic so we can hear on the live stream. My concern was if that's a standard, that will happen eventually. Having moved from South Denton because of all the traffic, I lived at the intersection of Teasley and Indian Ridge, which we had that lovely crossing across there to try to go to Sam Houston one way or it's not lovely. So if we're going to add all of these extra people, I'm really afraid for traffic. That is my concern. I appreciate you sharing your concern. And one thing I'll say is Sherman is a tech stock road. So that is not a city of Denton road and I won't confirm that. So that's a tech stock road. That's not something the city of Denton has control over at this time. The Texas Department of Transportation. No, I'm with you on that one. But as far as just having all of these businesses and/or apartments, if the city doesn't have control over Sherman Drive. That's correct. Then I guess I'm confused as to why everything has to go on to Poinsettia or Point Cisha as we just had our street sign fixed. Thank you for your comments. Okay. Hello, how are you doing? My name is Jorge Espinosa. I live in 1304 Mountain Boulevard. It's right there across the street. My concern is totally opposed to the apartments. And I just have a question for you guys. You have us having trouble in the last agenda accommodating 33 houses on 7.14 acres. And these builders try to build 150 units on 7.5. Just think about the traffic. Think about the trouble that they're just going to be creating on the same area of land. So that's basically my point, you know, and the question for you. Okay. So just consider what we have. We have a really nice neighborhood. And we call home that neighborhood. Thank you. Thank you for coming out and your comments. I've got a bunch of cards I'll go through. I have a question for staff before we start going through the cards that I'm going to ask them up and then I will come back. I noticed on the comparison on the zoning, would you mind as I go through the cards, would you look up, it has a maximum density on the NRMU of 30, but it's blank on the CM G. If you could do some research, and I'll call you back after I get through all these, and give us what is allowed in CMG for multifamily, density wise, so we have some comparison. Ma'am, thank you for your patience. Would you like to come and address our commission? One of the things that concerns me -- Can you give us your name and address, please? I'm Betty Marshall, 1906 Point Center Boulevard, Denton, Texas, 76208. Thank you, ma'am. I walk every morning. And probably about 7 o'clock or so in the morning. I mean, I also walk at 4 in the morning, but then my second walk is at about 7, 6 to 7. And cars that are going east on Loop 288, there is such a backup that they come up, they make a left, a turn, they go up to Point Center, and then they pull into Point Center and go back so they can continue going east. And it's going to be 150 times worse. And I don't understand why there isn't some traffic lights. And is that possible, to get a traffic light at 288 in Sherman? And also, we would need one on Point Center Boulevard. Well, to address your question, I know they're doing a traffic impact study, and that will determine if there's traffic lights that are going to be required or not and at what time they would. And if the traffic gets to a point, it will then trigger and there will be a requirement for traffic lights. And I just don't know without the traffic impact analysis yet being completed at what threshold that's going to be required. But city staff is very good at staying on top of those things and making sure that it complies with the development code and the state requirements for traffic and traffic counts and traffic lights. That's been going on for a long time now, these cars coming in and pulling in and then making a U-turn in the middle of , you know, the first part of Point Center. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am, for taking the time to come out and address the Commission tonight. I have one other card that was turned in. Michael Cohen in opposition? Spoke. Thank you. Again, this is a public hearing. Anyone else who would like to come up and speak on this item, please come forward. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm getting a little cold too, so excuse me. Lance Van Zand t, 512 West Hickory here in Denton. I represent the applicant and I'm here to speak in favor of the development . Just wanted to, a couple of questions I'd written down that I wanted to try to address. There was a number given out about approximately 400 cars coming in and out of the development were actually only for our site plan or only indicating 268 parking spaces, which is a bit in excess of what's required. And of course there's a limit to how many the code will allow you to have , so they don't want you building more parking spaces than you need. And we haven't done our traffic impact analysis yet, as you heard, but based on a similar project in Denton done within the last couple of years, we just pulled real quickly some of those numbers. We estimate that this development would put at the peak hour of traffic somewhere between 80 and 90 cars per hour on point setup. So that's, again, that's an approximate figure. It's not even based on this particular project, but it's a similar multifamily project in Denton that's been done within the last couple of years. So just to give you a ballpark figure. And we will complete the traffic impact analysis in the order that these type of things are done through the development process. So we're not by any means putting anything off in doing that. I've got a couple questions for you. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Van Zandt, for speaking to that issue. And then, yeah, that's something we want to take a good, hard look at when that TIA comes in. Let me ask you something that a homeowner brought up here, the concern about the height of some of these apartments. I believe you said you're going to build one, two and three story apartment units. I believe that's correct. I might have to call Mr. Combs up on that one, but I believe that's correct. Okay. Is there anything set in concrete now where those are going to be placed? In other words, is there a possibility that we can get the one and two stories closer to point set up and the three stories further back towards Luke 288? Is that a possibility? If you'll give your name just so we can keep track on our income. My name is Mark Combs with Palladium. To answer your question, so the funding that we went for and that we put in front of City Council, we are locked in in that funding with our number of buildings and our unit count and our unit mix. We can't change any of these things. So we have three story buildings. Now, what we can do, the site plan that you've seen is a concept site plan. We can move some things around. I do think there's some code requirements that we have to abide by, but we are fine moving things to help mitigate as much as code will allow. Okay. Maybe I can ask Julie a question regarding that. If I may, Chair. Sure. What is, this is where I always get lost on this, but isn't there a height requirement, the closer you are to the property line, that it recedes in the height or recedes in height as it gets close to the property line? For multifamily, we have a residential proximity slope in some Chapter 13. Which requires that if a building exceeds 40 feet in height , that it is stair-stepped back from that residential set back. So anything over 40 feet would have to step back at an angle of 35 degrees. So 40 feet, though, could be placed there. That's three stories, isn't it? Pretty much. Close. Yeah. If you're doing eight, nine foot ceilings here. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Van Zandt. Mr. Van Zandt, I had one other question. Commissioner San chez? Yes, I had a question. One of the requests or complaints is that you all haven't met with the residents. Before you do the, get into the more site, doing the site plan and all that, is that, is there a possibility of you all meeting with them and making them feel more at ease and explaining what you're actually going to do and what, and see, and get their opinion as to what you can do? Yes, we will find a location in the area where we can hold a community meeting. Absolutely. Okay. And, Mr. Chairman, I'll take just a second. One other good point that I wanted to address, I believe that Ms. Herman may have made, that we were looking at a nine-acre site, looking at some of the current allowed uses, and it wouldn 't be realistic that you put a big box store on nine acres, which is correct. Any speaker? The point had been made that it was not realistic to put a big box store on a nine or 10-acre site, which is correct. But in fact, the owner that we're purchasing the property from has about 20 acres contiguous. He's dividing a part of that off to sell to us. So the current owner has plenty of property, plenty of room to build about any type of retail you'd want to build there. And just final point, which is not necessarily zoning, but just more practical concern, is I've been driving to and from work every day down Sherman Drive for going on 25 years now. So I've sat there and watched those real estate signs, weather with age, there on that corner as I've gone back and forth before there was a football stadium or an auditor ium or anything else in that area. So you've said, so the city's essentially surrounded that area with public infrastructure that taxpayers have been paying for for years. And it's essentially a piece of property that for all practical purposes is not on the tax rolls today. It's for very little value. And I don't want to fear that the tax assessor may be in the building. I don't want to make any commitments, but my client will be putting probably in excess of $20 million improvements on the ground. We'll be paying approximately half a million dollars in wastewater and water impact fees in addition to permit fees and the other things we'll be building. So we are putting some value on the ground that's that an area that's laid dormant there for many, many years, as you all know. So thank you. That's all I have. Thank you for coming out this evening. This is a public hearing. Is there anyone else who would like to speak on this item? And I will go through the cards if not. If you've already spoke, if we've already spoken, I'm sorry. We have one opportunity in four minutes. My name is Denise Tomor. I live at 1614 Point Settas. So again, right across the street from me, I just have a couple of questions just for clarification purposes. And one of the votes tonight is on a zoning change. Correct . And that is a separate vote from the development. Correct. We have two votes. We have one on the zoning and then one on the next. The property in question, the low income usage, is that specific to the development in question? My understanding is that is correct that some of that they went before city council. That's not specific to the piece of property per se, just the development in question. That would be my understanding unless staff would want to make another clarification. It's associated with the SUP application, the specific use. The specific use of the palladium. So if something else was to go in there, it might not be a low income project. Is that correct? I can't speculate. I'd ask legal to weigh in. So what we're kind of going with this is veering away from the zoning issue. Would recommend that this commission focus on the zoning matter before it. What tenants occupy that lot shouldn't be considered for zoning purposes. Right. Again, as I'm saying, there's two different issues. We have the zoning issue and then we have the proposed pall adium. My question is the low income stipulation that is specific to the palladium project. There's no stipulation attached to any zoning request. Okay. It's just the proposed project that's going to -- It's just a lot confusing. That's what the developer is proposing to the developer. So I'm just trying to get clarification on that. If I could ask the applicant to come forward and explain, I know what that distinction is, but if you could explain what that resolution was about, that might put some light on it. Exactly. This is a land use discussion. So the NRMU is a zoning and the SUP is a land use that specifically allows this type of development. That's what this is about. What we went in front of City Council was our development, who were serving what type of development is. That was what City Council -- Can you expand on the purpose for that? It's my understanding that there are -- it's a competitive process. One of the requirements for you to be even considered for this program is that City Council would have to approve -- not approve, but -- Support. Support it. And so it was a resolution of support for that type of project. It wasn't attached to the zoning request. It was not attached to the zoning. It was attached to the funding. Could you expand maybe the process that you go through in one of these projects, just to clear up any -- Sure. So what we do is there's these housing tax credits that are IRS makes available through the state of Texas. And we go apply for these tax credits. It's a competitive process. And you get -- you're able to apply for these and get this funding if you get support from City Council. And there's just certain boxes that you check for this funding. It's a point system, isn't it? That's right. It's a point system. And so it has to do with things like dispersion of affordable housing. You know, right now in Denton, most of the affordable housing is on the southeast side of Denton. And so this is a census tract, an area of town where there is no affordable housing. So the state of Texas looked at this area and said this is a high opportunity area because there is no affordable housing in this area. And so those are some of the boxes that we're able to check to be competitive in this process. And that's what we brought in front of City Council. Now, when we look for sites, we also look for sites that are entitled and zoned. We saw this site with CMG. It already allowed multifamily. And so that's why we started pursuing this site and have been working on it since February with that understanding that allows multifamily. And it's only been very recently that this L6, we decided, you know, with staff's recommendation, hey, let's go basically remove this L6 because that puts the land use -- I think what the question was is has the City Council voted on the zoning itself, but you're saying that that was just a resolution supporting the development. This is the first time that we're discussing the zoning. Correct. Does that answer your question? Yes. Okay. This is a public hearing. Anyone who would like to speak on this item, please come forward at this time. If you've spoken on the item and haven't submitted a card, please do so before you go. I'm going to just go through these. I have a card from Ann Keeling, 1308 Martin, and it is opposition. Patrick Keeling, same address, opposition. Joyce and Lutizer Espinoza, 1304 Martin Boulevard, opposition. Martha Cahill, 2106 Poinsettia, opposition. Lana Knox, 2102 Poinsettia, opposition. Martha Davis, 3915 Teal, opposition. Nancy Martin, 2002 Poinsettia, opposition. Nancy Martin, opposition. Lana Knox, 2102 Poinsettia, opposition. I think some of these may be duplicates, 5C and 5D, but I will read them in anyway. Martha Hill, 2106 Poinsettia, opposition. James Wilder, 3903 Teal, opposition. Betty Powell, 2101 Poinsettia, opposition. Katherine Warbach, 1918 Poinsettia, opposition. Dina McCleskey, 1618 Poinsettia, opposition. Dina Rogers, 2202 Poinsettia, opposition. Kay Standifer, 1710 Poinsettia, opposition. Kathy Smith, 3923 Teal, opposition. And those are all the cards I have. Again, this is still a public hearing, still open. If there's anyone else who would like to come before us and speak on this item, please do so at this time. I just wanted to go ahead. I'm sorry, make a clarification because I know there's a lot of discussion regarding what's permitted under CMG, what's permitted under NRMU. Under the existing CMG, just to sort of put it in perspective, if they were to add commercial on the ground floor of their development, it could push it up to six stories. If they did that, we would not be here tonight. That would be permitted under the existing zone. So as long as they did commercial on that ground floor, again, that would not require a specific use permit. And so I just wanted to make sure everyone understood that. So they could go to a height of 65 feet, whether it's CMG or NRMU. So I just wanted to make sure that was clear because I know there's been a lot of back and forth about what's permitted , what's not permitted. Thank you. Again, this is a public hearing. Anyone else who would like to speak on this item before I close the public hearing? Anyone else? Seeing none, I will close the public hearing and I will call on Julie on a question answered and then we'll get started on discussion. Did you have, I didn't mean to put you on the spot, but I did. There is no maximum density for multifamily in CMG. So any density is permitted as long as they fit within the bulk and dimensional requirements in the zoning district. Is there a size requirement? For? The unit? Yes. Minimum 500 square feet. Okay. So with that, they're unlimited, essentially, unless they 're 500 square foot units, there's not a limit of the number of units. As long as they could park it and it stayed within that building envelope. Okay. So again, this commission's faced with a choice of what's permitted, which is much higher density, much higher use by right, versus taking an opportunity that I know is not popular by the neighborhood and essentially down zoning that property with putting limitations as far as density and some of the other requirements that are part of an NRMU versus a CMG and what else could go into CMG. And that's really the choices that this commission has legally by right for this property based on the current zoning. Yes, sir. Okay. Thanks for the clarification. Hang on, Julie. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. Did have a question for staff since you're here. One of the, again, one of the residents is here suggested or hoped for that maybe we could build townhouses on the other side of that. My question to you is, does either NRMU or CMG allow town home duplexes, anything like that? NRMU permits townhomes with a limitation that they cannot exceed 12 dwelling units per acre. And CM, I'm sorry, CMG does not permit townhomes, single family homes or duplexes. It permits dwellings above businesses, live and live work units and multifamily with the L6 and the L4. Okay. So by leaving the zone status as is, we can't build townh omes over there. No, sir. So we'd have to change it to NRMU for any prospect of doing that, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Okay. Commissioner Elms. Thank you, Chair. I am curious if we have a percentage after the cards you read. If we have a what? If we have a percentage of opposition at this point. There were an awful lot of cards read on points set at this point. So is anyone keeping track of that? Well, the percentage is based upon the land area and not necessarily the number of homeowners. I don't have that information with us. That is something that we will calculate prior to city council. And if it does exceed that 20%, then it would require a supermajority vote. We've closed the public hearing. So I'm going to open the floor here now. Appreciate you providing that information for us to have further discussion. Commissioner Beck. You know, just like to make some comments in light of everything that's been said here. Maybe I'll make a motion later. I'm not sure yet right now. But what I'm seeing in the hearing and what I'm empathizing with is a group of people who have lived in an area that is , in their opinion, experiencing some problems with traffic now and they're concerned about it increasing and getting worse, that whatever happens there and the feeling seems to be the departments are going to be more threatening than commercial property, that lifestyle over there is going to be disrupted. It's going to change. And the thing is the dilemma we're facing here is whether it be CMG or NRMU, there is going to be some development there in that area is going to change and thus the lifestyle is. I think we've tried to make a point here. At least I'm seeing that NRMU is the least offensive zoning as opposed to CMG, which is there now. And by supporting a zone change request to NRMU ameliorates a lot of problems that you'd be facing if we remained CMG. That's a likely area for growth. I think somebody from the city commented earlier today that North Denton is finally starting to take off on growth. Everything's happened south. So it's all coming this way now. So come hell or high water, we're going to see some changes here and some of them we're not going to like. And I agree. I've seen a lot of it too. Where I live up there, it was an empty lot where there's a Pentecostal church now. Before that was just all empty in there. And they wanted to build some apartments in there and enough people went over and protested and they backed down on that. We've got a housing development in there. So I understand the fear and the concern of apartments, of any kind of development coming in and changing what you have. But the fact of the matter is we can't rezone it. Pretty sure that just isn't something that's going to happen automatically. That has to happen at the city council level if I can get a nod or a shake. Yeah. So we won't go into that. So we're stuck with looking at CMG and NRMU. And it seems to me that our choices are if we're going to help the area residents that we want to do the least restrictive. And that would be NRMU. So I'll leave it there, see if there's any more comment and maybe I'll come back with a motion. Commissioner Sanchez. Yeah, one of the -- I think there's two questions here. I think most of you are opposed to having the apartment complex across the street. But I think one of the things that you weren't aware of is that what's allowed under the different categories under NR MU and CMG. And I think that now that that information has come down, has been exposed, you're beginning to understand that it's not just -- it's just not the apartment complex. There's two issues here. And if you don't -- and that's why one of the questions I ask is are they willing to meet with you all in the future to try to mitigate some of your concerns? And maybe it's just my opinion. I think most of you would be willing to have this changed to NRMU rather than have the other category. Now it's a matter of being able to -- how can you mitigate your concerns? And I believe that the developers said yes, they're willing to meet with you. And it's something that you all can pursue now is trying to get some mitigation there that will make you feel at ease. As far as traffic, I think here in Denton, traffic is bad all over the city. I mean, I remember 20 years ago you could go from one side of town to the other in no time. Now it takes you forever. It's just a matter of the beast is growing. And sometimes we just have to put up with it and hope that the city continues to develop the roads as the population gets larger. But our concern here is basically the zoning. And I think if you really come down to it, I really believe -- this is my belief -- that you would rather -- and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just throwing this out -- I do believe the NRMU serves you better than the other zoning. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I'm just going to piggyback on that a little bit. The NRMU downzoning from what it is currently really does offer you some protections. And it will give you a voice, especially if they've agreed to meet with you in their site plan as they move forward with the development. As well, someone had brought up earlier what the PNZ is. And PNZ is a recommending body to city council. So you will have another public hearing at city council. If you do want to speak again, they will vote on the issue next. We vote on it as a recommending body to them. That's what our role is in this. But if you do want to speak again and voice the concerns that you did with us, you will have the opportunity when city council hears this. It will be noticed, just like it was. And you'll get that letter again and the date of when that meeting is. Well, I'm going to -- before I recognize Larry, I'm going to be voting in support of this. And the reason being is for a lot of the reasons I've already tried to share with you all this evening is the zoning is in place now for multifamily. And it doesn't have a limitation on it. It's the number of units. So the NRMU does put some limitations on it. Now, whether they go forward with an apartment community or not, once it is rezoned, it is rezoned permanently unless someone comes back and makes another application to change the zoning. So if these gentlemen want to move forward and hopefully they will determine this project is successful and want to move forward, that's what will be built there. If for some reason they do not, the zoning that's approved tonight and then moves on to city council for consideration will stay in place. So that property will be downzoned from CMG to NRMU. And all the things that can go there currently by right, doesn't have to come before this commission, that can go down and pull a building permit and get started on it, will change and it will be brought back to an NRMU. And if I was in your neighborhood and I was faced with the option myself personally of having CMG right across the street from me or NRMU, I would take the NRMU personally. And because of that and putting myself in your position is why I'm going to vote in support of this because I do feel like it is a down zone and it's the best case scenario for what could go there for your neighborhood. I know none of you are happy about it. I understand it. That property has been there vacant for many years. I remember as a high school kid cutting hay and hauling hay on that corner over there and that's been in the 80s. That's about as far as I'll go on that. But anyway, it's been a long time and I know you all have had a great neighborhood over there and it's very difficult for all of us who have grown up in Denton and been here a long time and are accustomed to it's a big open field or it 's a field covered with trees, those things are going to change and that's just unfortunately a part of the process that we're all going to experience as long time residents of Denton that things are going to be built out, property owners are going to develop those properties that have been around and we may not like it. But it is going to happen and so there are some inconven iences from that but then there are some pluses as the revenues and the things that come to our city then provide the money to build the infrastructure, to improve the roads , traffic signals and all the things that come along with that that sometimes we don't consider on this side of it and then we look at it on the other. For example, for all of us, Razor Ranch and what was over there on University Drive before they did all of those improvements was a nightmare. And thank goodness those guys came in and they widened all of that and redid all of that and solved a lot of problems over there and that's been a big change over there on that side of town that a lot of us go over there and use those facilities. And unfortunately for you all some of those things are going to happen in your neighborhood and whether it's this project or another one, the corner there at Loop 288 and Sherman Drive will have some high intense use there because it is too much of a gateway into our city for a lot of people that live to the north of us. So because of all of those things I'm going to support it. I know you all aren't happy about it but I do think it's the best scenario for your neighborhood to be able to take the opportunity to down zone it from CMG to NRMU. With that I'll recognize Commissioner Beck for a motion. For a motion just let me say something that's probably not much comfort but it's a positive in the right direction concerning traffic. Some of you may know eventually Point Setia will eventually connect to Loop 288 but only when a frontage road is built in there. So that but when that's done that'll alleviate some of the traffic going out that way instead of having to come back down Point Setia and hit Sherman. And I believe in the developer can correct me if I'm wrong that once that developments done there's going to be an outlet on the north side. As that area develops that will allow traffic going out that way. Is that correct? Okay, so that's an area that will impact traffic in a positive manner. So with that being said, and it's hard to sit there and vote for something that I understand you're all opposed to. But we've got two choices we do nothing and leave it at CMG , or we put the less restrictive NRMU in there so I motion that my move that we approve the zone change from CMG to NR MU. Okay. We have a first Commissioner Sanchez. I second it. Okay. We have a first and a second for approval. Any further discussion. Well thank all of you all for coming out. I hope we've tried to answer all of your questions and provided as much information as we can on this item. And with that I will call for a vote on the board. That motion is going to carry four to zero. We will now go on to the second part of this item for the consideration of an SUV for those of you who would like to leave, please go to go on and we'll let the room clear and if you'd like to stay you're welcome to stay for this, this part of our agenda. Thank you. We're going to hear the second part of this for SUP so you are more than welcome to stay and come back up and address us on the SUP. So please stay if you'd like. I'm going to I think the room's just about cleared and I'm going to open public hearing and then we'll open it up on the floor here. So this time I'm going to open the public hearing for item D, S17-0010 and I will call on Julie White mostly for introduction. I know we've already done the presentation with just a clarification of what's on the next on the agenda. All right. So the request is for specific use permit for a multifamily development staff does recommend approval of the request and I believe there was a question regarding notification. We do send out a certified letter for property owners within 200 feet of the request and residents within 500 feet. So I can show a map. The 200 feet captures fewer people than one would imagine. It just captured some residents essentially on point set up and then the 500 feet captured some more residents into the neighborhood. This is a public hearing. I know we have been through this item but anyone who would like to speak on this item please come forward. It will be the same process. Give us your name and address and fill out another card for us or you may have already asked if we need to fill out another card or. Hi, my name is Jean Marie Goff and I live on Manton Boule vard and on this issue I just wanted to bring up again from listening to everything that with these 150 units Mr. Combs mentioned that 93 of the units will be open for the lower income and the other 57 will be no restrictions. So over half of the occupants are going to be on the lower income side and I just like to say I have an opposition to that. Okay. I know that something is going in there. I have known that for 16 years since I have been there. I know something is going to go there. I agree I think the NRMU I already said is a benefit to our neighborhood. And I do have a problem with these apartments and with them being three stories and I want to go on record as stating that again that three stories as opposed to our single family homes is a bit much. And I really would like to ask the developer, the builder to reconsider. I do have a bone to pick with Bel Air Development. They currently own the corner, the northeast corner of Poinsett ia and Sherman, and they have never once in 16 years come out and done any maintenance on that corner. The neighborhood takes care of that. We have no homeowners association. I've tried to call Bel Air Development and I 've never gotten any farther than a secretary. I've left my name and I've left my number. So they already have left a bad taste in my mouth that they don't seem to be good stewards of our neighborhood. So I hope that they will meet with us when they do decide whatever it is they're going to build. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks again for coming out tonight. Thank you. Kamil Hazard again, 1514 Poinsettia. I appreciate you guys giving us another opportunity to speak on this. I would like to ask that we could possibly table this for a vote until after the developer gives us an opportunity to meet with them and discuss our significant concerns. I'd hate for this to be approved and then they blow us off or don't take our concerns into account when they're obviously substantial. A three story apartment complex would completely change the look and feel of our community. And as well as the traffic and parking problems that we're anticipating. So I would ask you guys to if you can just table it until we can meet with them, discuss it. And then if we do have concerns going forward, you know, we have another opportunity to speak. Thank you. Again, I think Commissioner Ellis said we're just going to be a recommending body to City Council. So this will go on and City Council will have a final say on both of these matters that are coming before us. Okay. But would it be possible for you guys to at least tell them that we have concerns and make the same suggestions? They watch these meetings and they'll have minutes and they 're probably well aware of exactly what we're doing tonight. But you certainly are welcome to come back out for City Council. I would encourage you to do so. Thank you. I have a question for Julie. Commissioner Sanchez. Julie, based on what you just said, can they if they say this is just a hypothetical, say the developer doesn't meet with them and doesn't take can they meet with you? Because I know when they're when they're doing the site plan, you take all kinds of stuff into consideration. So with that, can they meet with you and or with the city and bring in their concerns? This is just I'm just throwing this out as a hypothetical. Say they just blow them off and say, no, we don't want to listen to you. We don't have any required meetings as part of the development process, but it is typical for applicants to meet with city staff during the development process to to ensure compliance with the development code, both in terms of site design and infrastructure and all of the items associated with. But I'm talking about the the the community with the community. Yeah. Yeah. Say you say what we've been talking about is they hopefully don't meet with the community will meet with with the developer. And I'm just throwing this as a hypothetical. So they feel what she just said. Say they blow them off and they decide, hey, we're not going to we don't really want to meet with you and do what we want. Can they then come to you and meet with you all and make recommendations? I was going to say private. The most immediate impact or voice that they'll have will be at the next subsequent city commission meeting, which is the city council meeting for this item is next Tuesday. So I would well I would invite and welcome all of the community come to that, but they can always, of course, call me as well. Yeah. Call or email me as well. Yes, sir. So that'll be Tuesday, December the fifth. Yes, sir. At the meeting. And it's the same room. Six thirty. Yes, sir. Thank you for the clarification, Julie. Commissioner Sanchez, did you have anything else? No, that was it. I'm sorry for raising my hand earlier. I'm learning. Appreciate you come to learn this guy over here pokes me. That's why you have legal right? That's right. I just I wanted to ask, have you, I guess, ask the developer because this is the second or third time I heard him mention the number of parking places compared to the number of units, which is not adequate. Where does he expect the people to park? They actually provided more parking than is required by code. And there is a maximum that they can put in. So they are above what's required. Well, but the requirement is inadequate. You know, that's one of my concerns. OK. You mentioned that that that you all don't have any control of the traffic there on Sherman on the text roadway on the text roadway. There's at least I do the same thing. Palata Manon. OK. Twice a day every day. There's at least one accident a week there. Minimum. I think if you went down to the fire department and asked one of those guys, they'll probably tell you there's more. I see at least one a week. OK. So if you don't have any control over the traffic, but you 're doing a traffic study, OK, you submit that to text out and they go, we'll do it whenever. And in the meantime, the building continues. They have a set of criteria and maybe city staff can address that better than I. But there is a set of criteria that they will have to meet both city and state. All right, because I guess that's my question. We're already having one accident a week. We already have people coming off, you know, like I said about the football Friday , but even not football Friday. Making those turnarounds. I've almost hit people a couple of times coming home from work already that are making a loop and on points that are there instead of, you know, making their left hand turn like they're supposed to. They've got to be aware that they're already having that many accidents, but nothing's happening already. OK, I agree with the tabling. I know you said you didn't have any control over that. So is that something that the city council meeting would do ? Well, this will go on to city council and that meeting will be next Tuesday, December the fifth. Same room, 630. OK, so both of the both of these items will move from this body to city council and that they will have the final say. I'm sorry. I know my my buzzer went, but you've got me confused. So you you have to either approve or not approve. You do not have the option to table. Is that what I'm understanding? Well, that would be an option if that's something that the commission wanted to entertain tonight. But at the end of the day, this project will move to city council and city council will then either approve or deny both of these separate items. We are just going to be recommending by so if we approve it tonight, it's not final. It just moves to city council and city council will have the final approval or denial on both the rezoning and the S .U.P. And that's currently scheduled for next Tuesday. Same room, 630. But you had the option of tabling it until the other information comes in. Well, like the traffic thing and all that kind of stuff. Well, that would be an option for us to consider if that's something the commission would like to do. I was just trying to get it all. It's a complicated process . I understand. Thank you all very much. Thanks for coming out tonight. This is a public hearing. Anyone who would like to speak, please come forward at this time. Great. As all of this discussion has gone on, I've realized that you divided it up. You are now going to vote on the special use permit, which does removes the need to have commercial on the first level of this building. Correct. That's correct. So that is what you're going to do . The thing that I would like to go on to record being heard to say is that if we are going to continue to bring in HUD housing, continue to focus on affordable housing for our citizens in the city of Denton, we have to remember that with housing comes other things like transportation. There is currently no bus lines to any of the areas that we 've talked about tonight. So we need as a city to be aware. I know it's not planning, but this is going to the city council. We also need to be aware of the ability for people to find adequate health care providers in the city, especially the HUD housing people who are going to spend most of their money on the housing. We also need to look at where these children are going to go to school that are going to be in these apartments. How are they going to get there? Are there any sidewalks to get anywhere near these schools that are going to be there? I know that the new area that's going up to the east of this one is going to have a lot of children in it. And I don't believe that the elementary school is prepared to deal with that. So as Denton continues to grow, it's not just housing. It's not just buildings. We are looking at neighborhoods. We are looking at families and we are looking at generations and that we need to be as a city responsible and aware of all of those things, not just where you have somebody. Thank you. Thanks for coming out in your comments. Again, this is a public hearing. Anyone else who would like to speak on this item, please come forward. My name is Scott Hazard. I live at 1514 Point City Boule vard. I appreciate you guys explaining your unanimous yes votes to us on this, although the opposition to it was unanimous. I haven't seen one person here tonight in support of this who doesn't have a financial gain in it. I appreciate you guys explaining your yes votes to us. But if they put an Arby's and a Burger King and a Whatab urger and a Pep Boys and a used car lot over there, they're not all going to be always parked on the north side of Poinsettia Boulevard. It's not going to generate that constant traffic flow at the corner of Poinsettia and Sherman Drive that this is going to generate. It's not going to exacerbate, rather, an already increased traffic flow because of the neighborhoods going in at each end. You say the builder will meet with us and talk with us. That's great. What I'm finding out here is I could be up here standing on my head screaming, and you guys hear me, but apparently nobody's listening because you guys voted unanimously to approve this when we showed up in a moderate show of force against it. So now you're going to approve the apartment complex in general, even though not one person in this room has spoken out for it, with the exception of the people who stand to gain by building it. As to the argument that when we moved there, we knew that that was an empty field and all of this kind of stuff, and it's not going to stay an empty field forever, that's a little bit of an insult to my intelligence. We know that this is not going to be an empty field forever . We know that things are going to be built there. But what we also know is that if you build apartments there and allow the people to park on the north side of the street, they will. And you're also going to open points that are up to be a through street then, probably going to have a, what, 30, 35 mile an hour speed limit, with cars parked on both sides of the street, and when the speed limit's 30 or 35, people drive what, 45, 50 generally ? I mean, let's be honest. So you're creating a very, very, very dangerous situation. It's easy for you guys. I don't recognize any of y'all. I don't think any of y'all live in our neighborhood. It's easy for you to sit there and tell us what's best for us. But that's a little bit condescending of you to sit there and tell us what's best for us. When we have thought this out, we have discussed this among ourselves. We know what's best for us. We don't think that we're not trying to save the field. It 's not about saving that field. We know something's going to be there. But an apartment complex is the wrong thing to be there. It 's the wrong thing to be there for the traffic aspect at the corner of Sherman and Poinsettia. The backup that's going to create at come home hour at 530 to turn left on the Poinsettia right there is going to be a nightmare, and people are going to get hurt. And y'all go ahead and vote. I'm going to respond. I'd like to respond to your comment. I'm not trying to sit up here and tell you what's best for you in your neighborhood. What I do want to share with you is that by right, they can build apartments on their property right now and not even come before this commission. I completely understand that. And also they could build a tiny story, whatever, that we talked about earlier. But it's not feasible to do that. They could build a Tesla plant right there, too. But that's not feasible either. So we have to look at what's feasible to go there and what you guys are trying to let these guys build there. Well, what we're trying to do is we're looking at the realities of what's there. And what the realities is what's there is that they can build multifamily there. They can do it 65 feet tall instead of three stories tall. There are people in your neighborhood they're concerned about height. And so this commission is faced with a difficult task. Do we pass on the opportunity to put some limitations on it or let it stay as it is? And it can be 65 feet tall and they can build apartments there. And instead of having 30 per acre, it's unlimited. And there are 500. So I hope you would look at the realities of the choice that we have. And it's not the one that you would like. But the reality is they can by right build there and do apartments there and do them much taller than what's being proposed. And so that's the choice that we have to look at this evening. And so I appreciate you coming out and sharing your thoughts. I hope that we have tried to share back with you the realities of what we have on that piece of property with the current zoning and the current uses that are out there. With all due respect, sir, this is a giant company that's got apartments all over the world. If they thought it was feasible to put 65 foot buildings right there, we'd be here talking about 65 foot buildings. Okay. This company is not going to worry about the money that it would cost to put 65 foot buildings there. Why are they not doing that? Because it's not feasible. Just like all of these other things that you guys have been talking about trying to scare us, well, you could have this going there. You could have this going there. Those aren't feasible. This is a matter of what is feasible and usable and common sense for that piece of land with the amount of traffic that goes by it. And believe me, this developer is trying to squeeze every penny out of it that they can. If they thought it was to their advantage to build five- story apartment buildings, they would. The next guy might, if they don't. Well, your time is up. I appreciate you sharing your comments. I had a question for him. Sorry, sir, there's one more commissioner who would like a commissioner that would like to ask a question. Commissioner Sanchez. Yes, that first vote we took was to change the zoning. Were you opposed to that? Because most of the people that I think came across, they 're not concerned with -- they're with us on the zoning. Are you -- again, are you opposed to changing the zoning? Or did you want to say the way it was? I see the zoning as a step towards the -- what is this, an SUP? I see one kind of feeding the other. So I'm opposed to the zoning. I'm not scared of somebody moving in there and building an 80-story high-rise because I know that the laws of economics prevent somebody from building an 80-story high- rise right there. I would be willing to have whatever is economically feasible that you guys in the city thinks will go there with the exception of apartments, with the exception of apartments where people are going to be parking their car in one solid road on the north side of Poinsettia Boulevard. And you know they will. I would like for you guys to all think about what it would be like to walk out in the morning to get your newspaper and see a bumper-to-bumper row of cars parked across the street from you. Maybe you see that. My guess is you don't. I would like for you to think about that kid that darts out between those two cars when the street is so narrow because there's cars parked on each side of the street. I drive through neighborhoods like that all the time. I drive like 15 miles an hour through these neighborhoods. And the speed limit is 30. I'm scared to death that some kid's going to jump out between two cars and I'm going to hit him. So I drive ridiculously slow so that doesn't happen. To answer your question, sir, yes, I was opposed to that because I believe that the laws of economics and common sense are on my side as to what can be put there. And I don't believe that the things that you guys have told us, well, this could be there and this could be there. Yeah, it could be there. But if it really was economically feasible to be there, it would be there. And it's not. These apartments are going to create traffic issues on Po insettia Drive like Poinsettia Drive has never seen before. Poinsettia Boulevard is actually a boulevard. That intersection at Sherman and Poinsettia, and I realize it, it's a dot highway. I mean, there's nothing that you can do about that, but nothing that the city can do about that. Do we really think that we really want to push this off on the state of Texas and hope that they are timely in their decisions to do what's necessary? How many people are going to have to die at that intersection? Sir, I'm going to interrupt you. We've let you go way past four minutes. We've had a couple of questions. I appreciate you coming out. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your point of view. I'll be quick. Becky Garcia, 1301 Matten Boulevard. I just have to -- I know one of the things that people do when this happens, and then I forget where I come from, is you're going to have a strip mall over here. You're going to have Luby's right here. You're going to have Chico's Tacos over here. You're going to have the -- what is it? What do we have? Like the Piggly Wiggly. That's where I grew up. I come from El Paso. And if you put my house in Denton, it would right be in the corner of University and -- what's the name of that street? The big one where Kroger is. Carol. Carol Boulevard. That's where I grew up with. And you know what? I grew up in the big one where the big one was -- except for the fire station, because that was across also there. At 9 o'clock, it got quiet. Now, El Paso is huge. So if the big boxes come in at 9, 10 o'clock, everybody's going to go home and it'll be quiet at night. That's not going to happen with the apartment. I know you just said something with the Bel Air. I know we're beating up on you guys, but one of the things is, is they didn't take care of a corner. Are they going to take care of the apartment? You know, my friend out there, it's 110, and she's mowing and edging, and people are, you know, waving at her and clapping, and we pick up our own trash. Are they going to be responsible enough to keep that area nice? I don't know. That's another reason. Them not talking to us, and we hear this other people, they came in and they talked. It leaves a bad taste in my heart. So I give you a challenge. Talk to us. Make us feel good. Because I won't come after you. You don't want her to come after me. Trust me. We're teachers. We will find you. If you're in Italy, it'll be fun, but we will find you. So, and you guys, thank you very much. Thanks for coming out this evening. This is a public hearing. Anyone who would like to speak on this item, please come forward at this time. Leslie Wilder, 3903 Teal Drive. Again, thank you for hearing us. I can remember, as you reminisced in the '80s, I can remember when Carroll Boulevard was put in. I used to have to go through the square to get into town coming in. I do know when my dad served on the planning and zoning, he talked about the most difficult thing he ever did was that board. And he said he didn't do it long because it was that difficult. He did the utilities board and other things. I really respect what he did and I respect what you do. And I just appreciate that you've listened to all our concerns and tried to understand and empathize, as you said earlier, with us. My brother-in-law's Jack Bell, I'm sure you're very much familiar with his name as a developer here locally. That would be a whole different ballpark if we were talking about a local developer on this project. I think that's a big concern for us here. I liked the development we talked about earlier, the homes going in off Audra. They were very considerate of what was going on around them . I'd like to see that here. And that's what I'm going on the record and I will go to the city council as well. But I just want you to understand that this does not seem like a local development like the old days of our planning and zoning, who really, really cared about how Denton changed and grew. And I know they resisted growth to the nth degree, too far at times. But there was a reason for that. And so I want to call your minds to that and remember that. Thank you. Thank you for coming out and sharing your comments. This is a public hearing. Anyone who would like to speak on this item, please come forward at this time. Anyone else? Seeing none, I'll close the public hearing and we'll open the floor for discussion or a motion. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. I'd like to make a motion, but I'm probably going to need a little help from legal here on this. Can I approve this subject to the condition that the developer has to have a community meeting prior to them submitting site plans to the PNC? Is that legit? Can I do that? I'm going to say no, because ultimately the decision goes to City Council. Right. So you're proving this would push over City Council and City Council would. Okay. In that condition, that consideration, I'm going to move that we postpone this consideration until there is a community meeting with the developer and the community. If there's a motion to postpone, there would need to be a date certain. Date certain. What's our next PNC? December 13th. December 13th. Because I know they want to get moving. I have a motion on the floor to postpone. If it don't have a second, it will die for lack of a second . The motion will die for lack of a second. The chair will obtain a new motion or further discussion. Commissioner Sanchez. I make a motion to pass S170010. Okay. I have a motion for approval. Is there a second? Commissioner Ellis. Yeah, I will go ahead and second. Okay. We have a first and a second for approval. Further discussion? Commissioner Ellis. Thank you. My discussion is probably to ask staff. A lot of concern with this parking issue on Point Seta. Is that something that can be brought up as we do the traffic impact study so that perhaps that is not allowed? I mean, how can that be addressed? Can it be addressed? Interestingly, the on-street parking is more of a city requirement because of the type of right of way. We will make that -- since that isn't something that the applicant is proposing, we will make sure that that gets into the record at City Council. And whether we look at that as part of the platting to modify that, that can be certainly something that's discussed and quite honestly would come back to this commission for final plat. Continue. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you, chair. Probably should have brought this up earlier. There were some conditions that staff put on the approval of this SUP. So I guess we should perhaps ask Commissioner Sanchez, is that part of your motion? I assume that they just automatically would be incorporated . Do we want to get a clarification of exactly what those conditions are into the record? Certainly. So the first condition would be a full site plan. Submittal would be required to ensure compliance with the Denton Development Code. And the second would be to maintain the muted earth tone colors for the exterior building materials. Okay. Chair. Commissioner Beck. Thank you. I can't push the button here because we're ready to vote. I'm going to go ahead and vote with approval on this too reluctantly. But knowing that this has to go to City Council first, again, this is just a recommendation. So I want to thank everybody for coming out. Sorry, this isn't the news you wanted to hear. But I do encourage you to go to City Council. Your grievance is there. And we'll see what comes out there. So thank you. Okay. Any further discussion? Okay. We have a motion on the floor for approval and a second with the two conditions in our backup clarified by staff. And we'll call for a vote on the board. Motion is going to carry four to zero. That will take us to our public hearing item E. We'll open the public hearing for FR 17-0020. And the chair would ask for a motion to continue that item to December the 13th. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you, Chair. I move to postpone to a date certain of December 13th, item FR 17-20. Okay. Commissioner Beck. Second. Okay. We have a first and a second to leave this item open and continue to date certain December 13th. Any further discussion? Seeing none, I'll call for a vote on the board. That motion is going to carry four to zero. That will take us to our final item this evening on our project matrix. Any items to bring before the commission for future meetings? Commissioner Ellis. You're pointing and I'm going, I don't see you. That's all right. You have a floor. Thank you. So just want to go on the record by saying I love the fact that we had a large sign on Audra. That's the first time I've seen the big sign. It did, however, not have a date on it. So I didn't know if it's supposed to have a date on it. But I thought I'd bring that up. But the size of the sign was finally one you could actually read from the road. So we're moving in the right direction. Awesome. Commissioner Sanchez, did you have something? Yeah, I just wanted to mention that I had talked a little bit about that comparison chart. And on the letter that you sent to the, what do you call it , the people in the area, do you put, you said it's in a website that they can pull it up or something? And do you put that in their letter? Or do we decide that you're going to start putting that in their letter, right? Okay, okay. Any other items? Commissioner Beck? You have an item? Nothing? Okay, with that at 930, I will close our meeting this evening. Thank you everyone for coming out.