Sep 10, 2018 Historic Landmark Commission on 2018-09-10 5:30 PM

special called me oh this is not a special called meeting this is just regular let's go ahead and call the meeting to order at 5 35 p.m. please stand for the pledges of allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivis ible with liberty and justice for all honor the Texas flag I pledge allegiance to the Texas one state under God one and indivisible all right so our first item for consideration tonight is to consider the approval of the July 9th 2018 Historic Landmark Commission meeting minutes has everybody had a chance to look through the minutes yes is there anything that needs to be changed or revised in the minutes no I didn't see anything myself if somebody wants to make a motion thank you so much John for making that motion can anybody second it thank you Aaron so the motion is seconded by Aaron all those in favor to approve the minutes as presented please say aye aye any opposed please say nay great okay so the motion is approved okay next item B we're going to receive a report hold a discussion make a recommendation to City Council regarding an amendment to section 10 - 131 of the city of Denton's code of ordinances related to tax exemptions for historically significant sites thank you so much I'm so excited mm-hmm good afternoon madam chair person and members of the Commission I'm Caroline Booth I'm pleased to be with you today to give you a short presentation regarding an amendment to a tax exemption ordinance for historically significant commercial sites wonderful okay so background to start out with in 1988 the City Council adopted an ordinance that provided tax relief to encourage preservation of historic sites within what was called the downtown commercial district the sites had to be at least 50 years old and the abatement provided was for a hundred percent on the incremental increase in the value after the restoration work was done for up to ten years and approval of any project is required first by HLC and then by City Council this incentive has been used five times since 1988 most recently in 2005 since 1998 I'm sorry since 1988 okay that's a typo thank you madam chair so I'm so sorry I just wanted to make sure no no no you're right it's 1988 okay so only used five times and obviously you know 2005 has now been quite some time ago in 2014 there was adoption of an ordinance to amend the original ordinance with the thought of including commercial buildings within historic districts or historic conservation districts as well as any commercial building that the City Council deemed historic or in need of preservation so the intent here was to expand the application of the original ordinance this use of this ordinance had not come up in quite some time at all and so we did have an inquiry from developers who are looking at the Fairhaven building on Bell and that is how this conversation got restarted and so in 2018 when this happened I requested that our city legal department conduct a review of the original ordinance and the amended ordinance from 2014 to make sure that everything was still good because we have to check on case law and stuff like that miss Clegg whenever we whenever we have something we haven't used in a while so they did find that the underlying basis is still valid and viable but the the little kink in everything was that the 2014 ordinance didn't amend the actual section of the code of ordinances in order to make those additional types and locations of commercial buildings eligible to use the incentive so the ordinance was adopted but the code of ordinances wasn't updated so it's really an administrative oversight so as you saw in your backup our legal department has drafted a new amendment ordinance in order to correct the issue and what we are here to ask you today is if you would prefer to recommend approval of this ordinance to correct the mistake or if you would care to not do that staff does recommend approval of this incentive tool and the ordinance to make it available to those additional types and locations of projects and I'm happy to answer questions that you may have mm-hmm question does the requirement of doubling still part of the rule I recalled back when you earlier slide you said it had to be a hundred percent increase no that there yes so it's a hundred percent tax ab atement on the incremental increase in the value so it doesn't mean that the value doubles it means that okay so you have the base year before the renovation is done and it's worth a hundred thousand dollars so before you start so that's that's the base year and the base amount of value then after the renovation or the the restoration preservation is done it has ostensibly an increased value so the difference between the base year and the increased value is the incremental value and that's what can be abated at 100% so it's just this little increase amount is that the tax on that increased amount so that's very common in tax abatements for other types of projects new construction or expansions of projects so it's just the increment thank you thank you so much for clarifying that sure I'm so sorry I'm a little new to this but I wasn't sure that what you showed us was only for historic buildings it sounded like anybody could qualify that was not clear so I mean something that's ten years old could qualify for an abatement is that not under this program I know it's the qualification is it has to be at least 50 years old because I thought the 2014 did not say that that's why the buildings still have to be at least 50 years old they can just be in different parts of town besides the central business district so now the difference is that we're looking outside of the central business district so beyond what's already looked at is right and all so this is my I just want to ask and clarify so approval by HLC and is required for any changes made to the size of those buildings or what would normally come under that purview of that building right for HLC if they are receiving this if they are receiving this tax abatement right I think the entire project has to be you all would have a chance to read review their entire plan okay for the project before granting or before recommending that they would receive this incentive Roman is that the way you read this that's the way I read it so we 're not so it doesn't apply to any buildings that wouldn't come under local control basically of like so we're not looking at just state properties does that make sense right say this might be something that's better for Roman to answer because I'm getting out of my hi chair I think I understand where you 're headed with that yes it's a local tool right with local control okay and you 're thinking about I see where if it was yeah we are controlling this so we're saying it's locally significant so it doesn't have to qualify for a registered Texas landmark status or a national red Richard landmark status although it's hard to qualify for those things as well it would still yes in fact yes that's right local historic designation I'm so sorry my words just found me there could be other tax incentives at the state and federal level right that could be exactly that could be added on to it and this doesn't keep any any property from being eligible from also receiving additional funding grants or tax credits through the state or the federal government correct okay question I don't see reference back to the 98 - 116 ordinance in the new one should it not reference back to that mr. Drake legal counsel or is there is a reference in the top of the second page word to orders 98 116 oh there it is okay commercial is there within the boundaries of the downtown area 98 - 116 okay so I get years yes so but but that that only applies to that first condition it does preserves the the the situation that's presently in the code right now this this condition number one is what's present ly in the code this amendment adds the conditions two three and four as well and it's and it's going to end up being an amendment the whole thing an amendment to that original one so because I was trying to see where it would still grant us the review if it was a completely independent ordinance but you're saying it 's not an independent ordinance it's an amendment it's a code amendment if you look on the first page down at the bottom section 2 amendment it says that the code of the city of dentist is amended by amending chapter 10 article 7 section 10 - 131 and so the provisions 10 - 130 10 - 132 are going to continue on as written okay I see thank you it's a very good question does anybody else have any other questions any clar ifications thank you so much for your presentation you're welcome thanks for asking good questions y'all and thanks for the dial a friend question support always so helpful come on I just want to make sure that y'all are gonna make a recommendation to council about whether you want to that's the next part okay so before us is the option to either make a recommendation or not recommend I'd like an emotion to make a recommendation to approve this amendment to 98 - 116 ordinance okay thank you so much for your motion Helen I'll second that motion thank you so much Aaron for your second okay it's open for discussion do we have anything else to discuss regarding this any clarification questions comments okay yes John it's no longer downtown it's now encompassing the whole city city limits yes so if we're looking at the ordinance it's not that it's no longer downtown is this downtown in addition to you yes so it's not it is no longer limited to the central commercial district so now we are also adding on any commercial building within a horse stark district any commercial building within a historic conservation district or any commercial building that the City Council deems historically significant or in need of preservation that the City Council deems historically significant or in need of preservation okay all right are we prepared to make a vote all in favor of the motion please say aye aye any opposed please say nay all right we've passed unanimous unanimously thank you so much for your work on this I really appreciate it okay let's look at item C hold a public meeting and consider am ending a certificate of appropriateness with section 35.7 point six point eight a with the development code to approve the wall didactic to a company that recently installed for permanent display Lynn Ford designed doors at City Hall all right thank you just as coming back to you and my feelings won't be hurt if it has to come back again but this is regarding the permit and when I say permanently installed it's just that those for those of you who are new to the committee there were some doors here on the eastern side of City Hall that were removed prior to there being an actual ordinance protecting the building and so there was some concern that the doors wouldn't be put back here where they were hanging where they you passed through them they 're made by Lynn Ford in this picture the brother of O'Neill Ford who designed the building so now they're kind of on display in the corridor there in a nice way they're not exactly square after they were cleaned up so it would have been we would have put the city through quite a bit of expense to mount them back where they were so for now they're on display and the question before you simply is would this be sufficient to put up markers like this next to the doors as as permanent part of the permanent display and for me the idea it was kind of I don't remember how it all formed but I think it was important to to have O'Neill Ford and his brother Lynn represented here so people knew when they came through the door if you've watched Benji the movie if you haven't watched I encourage you to rewatch it I just did not too long ago and a lot of the original Benji movies filmed right there in that corridor and the dog passes through those those very doors when they made the movie and there's the police department in that movie too so and it along almost topic if you have it up until September 22nd the O'Neill Ford exhibition is on display at UNT on the square a lot of work went into that and there's some unique items that you won't most likely won't see again for a long time that are on display there so this we asked before that the colors match so actually I purchased this photo from the San Antonio Express via eBay I was real lucky it was used in a lot of public in newspaper articles and it is black and white originally as well as this one was black and white originally if you remember we presented before we had a color image from the work over in probably on one of the TI projects Texas instruments that and that was a color so I feel like it's better because you're going back and they're both colored and then there was a one of the most influential as Helen had asked for is there and I mean we when we issued the C of a to hang the doors we said that these would come back to you all so they have to come back to you all for for final approval and I hadn't nailed down what these would be mounted on it to me they just need to get up I'm solid on the idea that done is better than perfect I don't care if they're mounted on foam board and print it well they need to be up and then if they need to be on bronze we're probably the city didn't is gonna make them bronze or do something a little more permanent but for me they just need to get get up there and and and keep people aware of that you know I haven't had that exhibit on O'Neill Ford down there we had over a hundred people the most number of people ever came to sit down in the UNT on the square to listen to Stephen Fox's 200 and something slide slideshow about O'Neill Ford it was an hour long straight and we had to pass out water and keep people going everybody left real happy they got their money's worth so it really having researched him I'm more impressed than ever with his work and what he did it is impact and how he came from pink hill to Denton and then became you know one of Texas's most influential architects of the century these look fantastic and I really like the edited down more simplified versions of them as opposed to what we saw originally I think it's a much cleaner look I appreciate the change in wording and I like the photos and so I'm just recommending that we approve approve those up to y'all okay does anybody else have any questions for Roman okay I just have one question absolutely the McNeil Art Institute is in San Antonio being a native I mean is there also one in Austin as a native San Antonio and I know of the McNeil in San Antonio I think there's one in San Antonio is the one and I know what you're speaking about listen we could clear it up just we can just clear it up because I'm thinking the one in your thing you said the other ones in Austin right yeah that's what that says that's why I'm asking you oh okay well I didn't know we did him a sphere and Trinity towers and stuff that's quite this I know the one in Austin's in Hyde Park so let me just put park it's MC NA why so yeah the one in Austin is spelled differently it's actually it's a weird it's a weird spelling if I can get it there's something else in Austin I know it's in Hyde Park fact we can just go to the maps on 43rd Street what is it called it's yeah it's gonna okay it's it's there's 40 46 it's by that shite pool is sitting right here the nay it's the name museum in Austin so this may be wrong right yeah this is supposed to be it says in Austin Texas my brain went to the Navy natives rule in that regard so it's in San Antonio it's the right spelling but the wrong city okay anything else that needs to be changed okay I can we approve with this spelling change and let it proceed on and get mounted we can okay I'd like to make a motion to approve with the spelling is as mentioned for the didactics in the City Hall building mm-hmm great thank you so much for your motion Helen second thank you so much for your second Mary okay if there's no further discussion we can go ahead and take a vote okay let's go ahead and vote for approval please say aye aye any opposed please say nay okay the motion is approved and we'll just make sure that you change those over to San Antonio not to Austin yeah Austin gets plenty of friends all right and finally that brings us to the historic landmark Commission project matrix any updates or changes that need to be made to it there's a historic preservation app Alyssa I think you brought forth a long time ago yeah and as part of the O'Neill Ford exhibit the Denton Convention and Visitors Bureau has made an app for O'Neill Forge work and so I just need to turn back around now and see well what we can probably just go right into that map and put all the local landmarks and other interesting sites on that app I think it's called little little D little D on the app store at your thing and it comes down I've tried it's cool got a little information on each of the O'Neill Ford buildings the educates ongoing items the preservation plan we're gonna have our first kickoff meeting with some staff this Thursday if Richard can make it and it's a that'll be with the Lakota group out of Chicago who have been hired to work on the plan and I know you say Chicago they 're way up there they were chosen by the review but they were that the low the low bidder actually on the on the agreement and also gave them really really really good comprehensive planning ideas so point being I think that's an opportunity for citizens to bring forth their desire for more financial incentives for historic buildings and that can come out that way you know about local designation of downtown Scott is still moving forward with that and I don 't think the status has changed since the last meeting that we had it's not is it's planning to move forward as far as I know it's still we've put it in ordinance form so it's just a matter of making sure that that it's correct and then we're gonna go back out to the stakeholders and it'll be brought back in front of this this commission and then sort of work its way P&Z then ultimately City Council right what is the timeline that we're looking at I'm everybody's favorite question I think we're trying to put it in around the same time as the trying to bring everything together with it with the DDC update okay so I would expect probably November when we'll have the final final ordinance complete to roll out together with the the initial draft staffed our public draft of the DDC update okay the consolidated draft right so we're talking about November 2018 correct and then probably adoption towards the end of the year beginning of 19 and we'll be I think wrapping into that the Denton develop the preservation part of the code rewrite comes in with that too correct it comes forward excellent thank you so much for your update the WPA stone line canals haven 't been I haven't approached them with that I need to follow up with engineering is still I understand that's still not funding for big changes to the canals okay but we need to I need to confirm that the it's a good thing Scott who's no longer the committee reminded me to put back the Confederate monument because I happen to see in the Denton record Chronicle I don't know if y'all saw that but there's a national organization that's going to that's chosen ten Confederate monuments around the United States to put to put pressure on for removal of them and that was in the paper within the last day or two okay last week okay but you know there's not the courthouse site is a local landmark so if someone decides if the county decides they want to remove the landmark or alter it or put a new thing there that has to come before the committee that's the general idea but we don't with this committee wouldn't normally take action to remove it that would be like taking out telling someone they have to alter their building right so in general that's that's a little background if y'all need more than that for me if you want me to research how this thing what people have how this has been impact how landmark commissions have impacted that question around the country I mean boy there's been a diverse amount of action some mayor's just in the middle of night of taking them down and yeah other things have happened and that was one of the prominent discussions at the NAPC conference this year and the vast number of ways that it has been dealt with is I mean it is really different for every community I think it would be interesting to see how other people in Texas have dealt with it just so we've got a knowledge of what's going on within our own state since the laws will be a little more applicable to us specifically I'll begin to compile some things then just in case that comes up here because that's landmarked through the it's it's a little bit there's a county but there's a local landmark designation on our courthouse so it's a treaty like the courthouse but is it also on the whole side when we do those we do the site so it's the entire site okay so it would have to come before HLC okay yeah I think it would be a good idea to maybe is that something that we could do as a workshop item before a meeting in the upcoming months just to look at how others have dealt with it if y'all want sure I would like to gather a bunch of stuff and workshop item you might get asked about it compile some of the names that presented on that very topic as well please do I can provide you with a few of those I think it would be helpful so that's all that's on there today great I will say that the preservation plan I mean you can add anything you'd like to it but as we move forward with that plan we'll be creating a steering committee we'll be asking some people to be involved so things will kind of pick up in that regard okay and as we've just made another tax incentive update can have we looked at creating a one page for tax incentives I will do that excellent thank you so much okay I just want to make sure that it's clear sure as is there a common question so okay awesome does anybody have anything to add to the matrix okay thank you so much I appreciate it Roman all right if there's no other business does anybody have anything that needs to be added to the next agenda any other business yes absolutely John yes Roman do you want to come on up and then I heard that if something's not acted on in 45 days it kicks in whether we decided to do it or not let's double check with Roman yeah Commissioner what happened there is the I was prepared to have that on this agenda so it wouldn't go beyond the 45 days and that's the chimney out at the house but the contractor has withdrawn his application to demolish the chimney he's going to leave it where it is he's gonna excellent and trim around it and and it and I last time I checked it was trimmed nicely in same place that it was I saw it standing yesterday so yes I hope they put a little concrete back in the holes but he withdrew the key is he withdrew the CIA so if he would have to reapply and read we would re-trigger that okay thank you so much for your update yes ma'am there are many people now moving into the historic district mm-hmm and for whatever reason the real estate agents you know better have not always given the information to them of what is required how are they to get this information whose job is that and how can we be sure they know standards because I'm tired of people getting forgiveness instead of permission right well if I'm not in I believe that we actually updated something for the real estates but the signage is pretty clear in all of the districts that are historic districts and I know that that I mean trust me I remember my first year on the Commission we had a house come up that was literally across from the sign that said you're now entering the Bell Historic Conservation District and they still made some changes without getting a COA and it was terrifying but the main thing is is that all that information is very easily accessible on the website now it doesn't take a lot of clicking around it 's literally like boom right there our historic preservation officer is readily available through the city there's not like a program or anything where someone is supposed to like oh there's a new property owner so here is the rule here are the rules and regulations it would be sort of nice to have some kind of thing underway since they're already on the tax roll I already saw that I look they already hit the tax roll so the city knows they exist to just send out a general notice to everybody once a year just I mean I know this is selling much even if it's something to the registered owners because I know the people next door to me have no clue they looked at me like I was well so-and-so never said I won't mention the name that they write do this so they had a real estate agent not informed them is that what is happening okay we legally is there anything that we should or could be doing well really that's the function of the building permit process is to catch those things if you have people making changes to a structure without checking into the bill it building permit process there's there's very little additional that you can do right but paints and fences and painting is not going to require a permit I wouldn't think you know but as far as you know modifications are concerned that that should be caught during the permitting process but there are some people that will skirt the permitting process and that just happens I just it would be kind of nice if we had a little booklet to send to everybody it doesn't have to be paper and sooner rather than later because could we add that to the matrix and I'll be obligated to get something I was I think I just a mailer I don't know if it had to be certified you don't spend a lot of money doing this kind of thing but just a I mean it wouldn't could you send out an annual mailer that just to every house all the landmarks and all the historic homes by the I guess you'd need the county the updated website and a quick reminder how to of how to submit a COA and when they 're they're necessary right perhaps if this once you were I'm assuming the ordinance is gonna pass with the the tax incentive perhaps once that once that passes what we can do is all of the properties that that would be subject to that ordinance we can send out a letter one informing them of that of that ordinance that it's available but then also what their requirements are and that might be a way that well now that would be a different group from Mary's talking about historic district houses that are outside of the downtown just just read our three historic districts actually it did commercial or residential building within the boundaries of the downtown commercial district it does not the buildings it Richard referred to that would be every building commercial that's over 50 so that would be yeah that's right that would be the whole that's a bet so it doesn't apply to residential be some weird there'll be a lot of buildings that wouldn't you wouldn't be concerned about so I think it's just a male to the I would what you're saying but still there's a change in the history so we could use that as an opportunity as a trigger point to to go ahead and then notify people I'm having an idea to tag on to that I remember there have been a couple of occasions we've wanted to send out a mailer first what reason or another and this could be an opportunity to invite them to also register their email address with the city so that next time we have one of those cases you've got an email database to send out something with mm-hmm that's a great idea I mean I don't think it would hurt to have a one a quick one sheet where that gets sent out once a year I could send y' all a draft and then yeah back at me with what you think it needs in it for a true reason is that something that we can yeah I think what will day yeah what we'll do is for the next meeting just prepare something to because there is a residential I'm trying to think of the one that was recently designated they did get it that's another that's a different incentive but maybe there 's a way to just summarize all of that right I mean I think it would be really easy to say hey so happy to have you aboard I mean we can get into details later I'm so sorry I don't want to take up time with that yeah I think that's something we can look at yeah yes I got greeted by Oh piggycaps game is it here's the booklet for about what you needed to do I can see that happening yeah yeah yeah oh yeah okay all right anything else that needs to be updated or discussed okay there's no other business than the regular meeting is adjourned at 6 13 14 p.m. thank you just a reminder if you have time to go by the Appleton Center there's some but who just but I would like it to get I don 't want more than five five or more I don't want to go okay all right so that already good so I'm gonna head over okay I will get again we'll get to see that project as it goes forward yes and welcome to our new members welcome