special called me oh this is not a special called meeting
this is just
regular let's go ahead and call the meeting to order at 5
35 p.m. please
stand for the pledges of allegiance
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of
America and to the
republic for which it stands one nation under God indivis
ible with liberty and
justice for all honor the Texas flag I pledge allegiance to
the Texas one state
under God one and indivisible all right so our first item
for consideration
tonight is to consider the approval of the July 9th 2018
Historic Landmark
Commission meeting minutes has everybody had a chance to
look through the minutes
yes is there anything that needs to be changed or revised
in the minutes no I
didn't see anything myself if somebody wants to make a
motion thank you so much
John for making that motion can anybody second it thank you
Aaron so the motion
is seconded by Aaron all those in favor to approve the
minutes as presented
please say aye aye any opposed please say nay great okay so
the motion is
approved okay next item B we're going to receive a
report hold a discussion make a recommendation to City
Council regarding
an amendment to section 10 - 131 of the city of Denton's
code of ordinances
related to tax exemptions for historically significant
sites thank you
so much I'm so excited mm-hmm good afternoon madam chair
person and members
of the Commission I'm Caroline Booth I'm pleased to be with
you today to give you
a short presentation regarding an amendment to a tax
exemption ordinance
for historically significant commercial sites wonderful
okay so background to
start out with in 1988 the City Council adopted an
ordinance that provided tax
relief to encourage preservation of historic sites within
what was called
the downtown commercial district the sites had to be at
least 50 years old
and the abatement provided was for a hundred percent on the
incremental
increase in the value after the restoration work was done
for up to ten
years and approval of any project is required first by HLC
and then by City
Council this incentive has been used five times since 1988
most recently in
2005 since 1998 I'm sorry since 1988 okay that's a typo
thank you
madam chair so I'm so sorry I just wanted to make sure no
no no you're
right it's 1988 okay so only used five times and obviously
you know 2005 has
now been quite some time ago in 2014 there was adoption of
an ordinance to
amend the original ordinance with the thought of including
commercial
buildings within historic districts or historic
conservation districts as well
as any commercial building that the City Council deemed
historic or in need of
preservation so the intent here was to expand the
application of the original
ordinance this use of this ordinance had not come up in
quite some time at all
and so we did have an inquiry from developers who are
looking at the
Fairhaven building on Bell and that is how this
conversation got restarted and
so in 2018 when this happened I requested that our city
legal department
conduct a review of the original ordinance and the amended
ordinance from
2014 to make sure that everything was still good because we
have to check on
case law and stuff like that miss Clegg whenever we
whenever we have something
we haven't used in a while so they did find that the
underlying basis is still
valid and viable but the the little kink in everything was
that the 2014
ordinance didn't amend the actual section of the code of
ordinances in
order to make those additional types and locations of
commercial buildings
eligible to use the incentive so the ordinance was adopted
but the code of
ordinances wasn't updated so it's really an administrative
oversight so as you
saw in your backup our legal department has drafted a new
amendment ordinance in
order to correct the issue and what we are here to ask you
today is if you
would prefer to recommend approval of this ordinance to
correct the mistake or
if you would care to not do that staff does recommend
approval of this
incentive tool and the ordinance to make it available to
those additional types
and locations of projects and I'm happy to answer questions
that you may have
mm-hmm question does the requirement of doubling still part
of the rule I
recalled back when you earlier slide you said it had to be
a hundred percent
increase no that there yes so it's a hundred percent tax ab
atement on the
incremental increase in the value so it doesn't mean that
the value doubles it
means that okay so you have the base year before the
renovation is done and
it's worth a hundred thousand dollars so before you start
so that's that's the
base year and the base amount of value then after the
renovation or the the
restoration preservation is done it has ostensibly an
increased value so the
difference between the base year and the increased value is
the incremental value
and that's what can be abated at 100% so it's just this
little increase amount is
that the tax on that increased amount so that's very common
in tax abatements
for other types of projects new construction or expansions
of projects so
it's just the increment thank you thank you so much for
clarifying that sure
I'm so sorry I'm a little new to this but I wasn't sure
that what you showed us
was only for historic buildings it sounded like anybody
could qualify that
was not clear so I mean something that's ten years old
could qualify for an
abatement is that not under this program I know it's the
qualification is it has
to be at least 50 years old because I thought the 2014 did
not say that that's
why the buildings still have to be at least 50 years old
they can just be in
different parts of town besides the central business
district so now the
difference is that we're looking outside of the central
business district so
beyond what's already looked at is right and all so this is
my I just want to ask
and clarify so approval by HLC and is required for any
changes made to the
size of those buildings or what would normally come under
that purview of that
building right for HLC if they are receiving this if they
are receiving
this tax abatement right I think the entire project has to
be you all would
have a chance to read review their entire plan okay for the
project before
granting or before recommending that they would receive
this incentive Roman is
that the way you read this that's the way I read it so we
're not so it doesn't
apply to any buildings that wouldn't come under local
control basically of
like so we're not looking at just state properties does
that make sense right
say this might be something that's better for Roman to
answer because I'm
getting out of my hi chair I think I understand where you
're headed with that
yes it's a local tool right with local control okay and you
're thinking about I
see where if it was yeah we are controlling this so we're
saying it's
locally significant so it doesn't have to qualify for a
registered Texas
landmark status or a national red Richard landmark status
although it's
hard to qualify for those things as well it would still yes
in fact yes that's
right local historic designation I'm so sorry my words just
found me there could
be other tax incentives at the state and federal level
right that could be
exactly that could be added on to it and this doesn't keep
any any property from
being eligible from also receiving additional funding
grants or tax
credits through the state or the federal government correct
okay question I don't
see reference back to the 98 - 116 ordinance in the new one
should it not
reference back to that mr. Drake legal counsel or is there
is a reference in
the top of the second page word to orders 98 116 oh there
it is okay
commercial is there within the boundaries of the downtown
area 98 -
116 okay so I get years yes so but but that that only
applies to that first
condition it does preserves the the the situation that's
presently in the code
right now this this condition number one is what's present
ly in the code this
amendment adds the conditions two three and four as well
and it's and it's going
to end up being an amendment the whole thing an amendment
to that original one
so because I was trying to see where it would still grant
us the review if it
was a completely independent ordinance but you're saying it
's not an independent
ordinance it's an amendment it's a code amendment if you
look on the first page
down at the bottom section 2 amendment it says that the
code of the city of
dentist is amended by amending chapter 10 article 7 section
10 - 131 and so the
provisions 10 - 130 10 - 132 are going to continue on as
written okay I see
thank you it's a very good question
does anybody else have any other questions any clar
ifications thank you
so much for your presentation you're welcome thanks for
asking good
questions y'all and thanks for the dial a friend question
support always so
helpful
come on I just want to make sure that y'all are gonna make
a recommendation to
council about whether you want to that's the next part okay
so before us is the
option to either make a recommendation or not recommend I'd
like an emotion to
make a recommendation to approve this amendment to 98 - 116
ordinance okay
thank you so much for your motion Helen I'll second that
motion thank you so
much Aaron for your second okay it's open for discussion do
we have anything
else to discuss regarding this any clarification questions
comments okay
yes John it's no longer downtown it's now encompassing the
whole city city
limits yes so if we're looking at the ordinance it's not
that it's no longer
downtown is this downtown in addition to you yes so it's
not it is no longer
limited to the central commercial district so now we are
also adding on
any commercial building within a horse stark district any
commercial building
within a historic conservation district or any commercial
building that the City
Council deems historically significant or in need of
preservation that the City
Council deems historically significant or in need of
preservation
okay all right are we prepared to make a vote all in favor
of the motion please
say aye aye any opposed please say nay all right we've
passed unanimous
unanimously thank you so much for your work on this I
really appreciate it
okay
let's look at item C hold a public meeting and consider am
ending a
certificate of appropriateness with section 35.7 point six
point eight a
with the development code to approve the wall didactic to a
company that
recently installed for permanent display Lynn Ford designed
doors at City Hall
all right thank you just as coming back to you and my
feelings won't be hurt if
it has to come back again but this is regarding the permit
and when I say
permanently installed it's just that those for those of you
who are new to
the committee there were some doors here on the eastern
side of City Hall that
were removed prior to there being an actual ordinance
protecting the building
and so there was some concern that the doors wouldn't be
put back here where
they were hanging where they you passed through them they
're made by Lynn Ford
in this picture the brother of O'Neill Ford who designed
the building so now
they're kind of on display in the corridor there in a nice
way they're not
exactly square after they were cleaned up so it would have
been we would have
put the city through quite a bit of expense to mount them
back where they
were so for now they're on display and the question before
you simply is would
this be sufficient to put up markers like this next to the
doors as as
permanent part of the permanent display and for me the idea
it was kind of I
don't remember how it all formed but I think it was
important to to have O'Neill
Ford and his brother Lynn represented here so people knew
when they came
through the door if you've watched Benji the movie if you
haven't watched I
encourage you to rewatch it I just did not too long ago and
a lot of the
original Benji movies filmed right there in that corridor
and the dog passes
through those those very doors when they made the movie and
there's the police
department in that movie too so and it along almost topic
if you have it up
until September 22nd the O'Neill Ford exhibition is on
display at UNT on the
square a lot of work went into that and there's some unique
items that you won't
most likely won't see again for a long time that are on
display there so this
we asked before that the colors match so actually I
purchased this photo from the
San Antonio Express via eBay I was real lucky it was used
in a lot of public in
newspaper articles and it is black and white originally as
well as this one was
black and white originally if you remember we presented
before we had a
color image from the work over in probably on one of the TI
projects Texas
instruments that and that was a color so I feel like it's
better because you're
going back and they're both colored and then there was a
one of the most
influential as Helen had asked for is there and I mean we
when we issued the
C of a to hang the doors we said that these would come back
to you all so they
have to come back to you all for for final approval and I
hadn't nailed down
what these would be mounted on it to me they just need to
get up I'm solid on
the idea that done is better than perfect I don't care if
they're mounted
on foam board and print it well they need to be up and then
if they need to
be on bronze we're probably the city didn't is gonna make
them bronze or do
something a little more permanent but for me they just need
to get get up there
and and and keep people aware of that you know I haven't
had that exhibit on
O'Neill Ford down there we had over a hundred people the
most number of
people ever came to sit down in the UNT on the square to
listen to Stephen Fox's
200 and something slide slideshow about O'Neill Ford it was
an hour long
straight and we had to pass out water and keep people going
everybody left
real happy they got their money's worth so it really having
researched him I'm
more impressed than ever with his work and what he did it
is impact and how
he came from pink hill to Denton and then became you know
one of Texas's most
influential architects of the century these look fantastic
and I really like
the edited down more simplified versions of them as opposed
to what we saw
originally I think it's a much cleaner look I appreciate
the change in wording
and I like the photos and so I'm just recommending that we
approve approve
those up to y'all okay does anybody else have any questions
for Roman okay
I just have one question absolutely the McNeil Art
Institute is in San Antonio
being a native I mean is there also one in Austin as a
native San Antonio and I
know of the McNeil in San Antonio I think there's one in
San Antonio is the
one and I know what you're speaking about listen we could
clear it up just
we can just clear it up because I'm thinking the one in
your thing you said
the other ones in Austin right yeah that's what that says
that's why I'm
asking you oh okay well I didn't know we did him a sphere
and Trinity towers
and stuff that's quite this I know the one in Austin's in
Hyde Park so let me
just put park it's MC NA why so yeah the one in Austin is
spelled differently
it's actually it's a weird it's a weird spelling if I can
get it there's
something else in Austin I know it's in Hyde Park fact we
can just go to the
maps on 43rd Street what is it called it's yeah it's gonna
okay it's it's
there's 40 46 it's by that shite pool is sitting right here
the nay it's the name
museum in Austin so this may be wrong right yeah this is
supposed to be
it says in Austin Texas my brain went to the Navy natives
rule in that regard
so it's in San Antonio it's the right spelling but the
wrong city okay anything
else that needs to be changed okay I can we approve with
this spelling change and
let it proceed on and get mounted we can okay I'd like to
make a motion to
approve with the spelling is as mentioned for the didactics
in the City
Hall building mm-hmm great thank you so much for your
motion Helen second thank
you so much for your second Mary okay if there's no further
discussion we can go
ahead and take a vote okay let's go ahead and vote for
approval please say aye
aye any opposed please say nay okay the motion is approved
and we'll just make
sure that you change those over to San Antonio not to
Austin yeah Austin gets
plenty of friends all right and finally that brings us to
the historic landmark
Commission project matrix any updates or changes that need
to be made to it
there's a historic preservation app Alyssa I think you
brought forth a long
time ago yeah and as part of the O'Neill Ford exhibit the
Denton Convention and
Visitors Bureau has made an app for O'Neill Forge work and
so I just need to
turn back around now and see well what we can probably just
go right into that
map and put all the local landmarks and other interesting
sites on that app I
think it's called little little D little D on the app store
at your thing and it
comes down I've tried it's cool got a little information on
each of the O'Neill
Ford buildings the educates ongoing items the preservation
plan we're gonna have
our first kickoff meeting with some staff this Thursday if
Richard can make
it and it's a that'll be with the Lakota group out of
Chicago who have been
hired to work on the plan and I know you say Chicago they
're way up there they
were chosen by the review but they were that the low the
low bidder actually on
the on the agreement and also gave them really really
really good comprehensive
planning ideas so point being I think that's an opportunity
for citizens to
bring forth their desire for more financial incentives for
historic
buildings and that can come out that way you know about
local designation of
downtown Scott is still moving forward with that and I don
't think the status
has changed since the last meeting that we had it's not is
it's planning to move
forward as far as I know it's still we've put it in
ordinance form so it's
just a matter of making sure that that it's correct and
then we're gonna go
back out to the stakeholders and it'll be brought back in
front of this this
commission and then sort of work its way P&Z then
ultimately City Council right
what is the timeline that we're looking at I'm everybody's
favorite question I
think we're trying to put it in around the same time as the
trying to bring
everything together with it with the DDC update okay so I
would expect probably
November when we'll have the final final ordinance complete
to roll out together
with the the initial draft staffed our public draft of the
DDC update okay the
consolidated draft right so we're talking about November
2018 correct and
then probably adoption towards the end of the year
beginning of 19 and we'll be
I think wrapping into that the Denton develop the
preservation part of the
code rewrite comes in with that too correct it comes
forward excellent thank
you so much for your update the WPA stone line canals haven
't been I haven't
approached them with that I need to follow up with
engineering is still I
understand that's still not funding for big changes to the
canals okay but we
need to I need to confirm that the it's a good thing Scott
who's no longer the
committee reminded me to put back the Confederate monument
because I happen to
see in the Denton record Chronicle I don't know if y'all
saw that but there's
a national organization that's going to that's chosen ten
Confederate monuments
around the United States to put to put pressure on for
removal of them and that
was in the paper within the last day or two okay last week
okay but you know
there's not the courthouse site is a local landmark so if
someone decides if
the county decides they want to remove the landmark or
alter it or put a new
thing there that has to come before the committee that's
the general idea but we
don't with this committee wouldn't normally take action to
remove it that
would be like taking out telling someone they have to alter
their building right
so in general that's that's a little background if y'all
need more than that
for me if you want me to research how this thing what
people have how this has
been impact how landmark commissions have impacted that
question around the
country I mean boy there's been a diverse amount of action
some mayor's
just in the middle of night of taking them down and yeah
other things have
happened and that was one of the prominent discussions at
the NAPC
conference this year and the vast number of ways that it
has been dealt with is I
mean it is really different for every community I think it
would be
interesting to see how other people in Texas have dealt
with it just so we've
got a knowledge of what's going on within our own state
since the laws will
be a little more applicable to us specifically I'll begin
to compile some
things then just in case that comes up here because that's
landmarked through
the it's it's a little bit there's a county but there's a
local landmark
designation on our courthouse so it's a treaty like the
courthouse but is it
also on the whole side when we do those we do the site so
it's the entire site
okay so it would have to come before HLC okay yeah I think
it would be a good idea
to maybe is that something that we could do as a workshop
item before a meeting
in the upcoming months just to look at how others have
dealt with it if y'all
want sure I would like to gather a bunch of stuff and
workshop item you might get
asked about it compile some of the names that presented on
that very topic as well
please do I can provide you with a few of those I think it
would be helpful so
that's all that's on there today great I will say that the
preservation plan I
mean you can add anything you'd like to it but as we move
forward with that plan
we'll be creating a steering committee we'll be asking some
people to be
involved so things will kind of pick up in that regard okay
and as we've just
made another tax incentive update can have we looked at
creating a one page
for tax incentives I will do that excellent thank you so
much okay I just
want to make sure that it's clear sure as is there a common
question so okay
awesome does anybody have anything to add to the matrix
okay thank you so much I
appreciate it Roman all right if there's no other business
does anybody have
anything that needs to be added to the next agenda any
other business yes
absolutely John yes Roman do you want to come on up
and then I heard that if something's not acted on in 45
days it kicks in whether we
decided to do it or not let's double check with Roman yeah
Commissioner what happened there is the I was prepared to
have that on this
agenda so it wouldn't go beyond the 45 days and that's the
chimney out at the
house but the contractor has withdrawn his application to
demolish the chimney
he's going to leave it where it is he's gonna excellent and
trim around it and
and it and I last time I checked it was trimmed nicely in
same place that it was
I saw it standing yesterday so yes I hope they put a little
concrete back in
the holes but he withdrew the key is he withdrew the CIA so
if he would have to
reapply and read we would re-trigger that okay thank you so
much for your
update yes ma'am there are many people now moving into the
historic district
mm-hmm and for whatever reason the real estate agents you
know better have not
always given the information to them of what is required
how are they to get
this information whose job is that and how can we be sure
they know standards
because I'm tired of people getting forgiveness instead of
permission right
well if I'm not in I believe that we actually updated
something for the real
estates but the signage is pretty clear in all of the
districts that are
historic districts and I know that that I mean trust me I
remember my first year
on the Commission we had a house come up that was literally
across from the sign
that said you're now entering the Bell Historic
Conservation District and they
still made some changes without getting a COA and it was
terrifying but the
main thing is is that all that information is very easily
accessible on
the website now it doesn't take a lot of clicking around it
's literally like boom
right there our historic preservation officer is readily
available through the
city there's not like a program or anything where someone
is supposed to
like oh there's a new property owner so here is the rule
here are the rules and
regulations it would be sort of nice to have some kind of
thing underway since
they're already on the tax roll I already saw that I look
they already hit
the tax roll so the city knows they exist to just send out
a general notice
to everybody once a year just I mean I know this is selling
much even if it's
something to the registered owners because I know the
people next door to me
have no clue they looked at me like I was well so-and-so
never said I won't
mention the name that they write do this so they had a real
estate agent not
informed them is that what is happening okay
we legally is there anything that we should or could be
doing well really
that's the function of the building permit process is to
catch those things
if you have people making changes to a structure without
checking into the
bill it building permit process there's there's very little
additional that you
can do right but paints and fences and painting is not
going to require a
permit I wouldn't think you know but as far as you know
modifications are
concerned that that should be caught during the permitting
process but there
are some people that will skirt the permitting process and
that just happens
I just it would be kind of nice if we had a little booklet
to send to
everybody it doesn't have to be paper and sooner rather
than later because
could we add that to the matrix and I'll be obligated to
get something I was I
think I just a mailer I don't know if it had to be
certified you don't spend a
lot of money doing this kind of thing but just a I mean it
wouldn't could you
send out an annual mailer that just to every house all the
landmarks and all
the historic homes by the I guess you'd need the county the
updated website and a
quick reminder how to of how to submit a COA and when they
're they're necessary
right perhaps if this once you were I'm assuming the
ordinance is gonna pass
with the the tax incentive perhaps once that once that
passes what we can do is
all of the properties that that would be subject to that
ordinance we can send
out a letter one informing them of that of that ordinance
that it's available
but then also what their requirements are and that might be
a way that well
now that would be a different group from Mary's talking
about historic district
houses that are outside of the downtown just just read our
three historic
districts actually it did commercial or residential
building within the
boundaries of the downtown commercial district it does not
the buildings it
Richard referred to that would be every building commercial
that's over 50 so
that would be yeah that's right that would be the whole
that's a bet so it
doesn't apply to residential be some weird there'll be a
lot of buildings that
wouldn't you wouldn't be concerned about so I think it's
just a male to the I
would what you're saying but still there's a change in the
history so we
could use that as an opportunity as a trigger point to to
go ahead and then
notify people I'm having an idea to tag on to that I
remember there have been a
couple of occasions we've wanted to send out a mailer first
what reason or
another and this could be an opportunity to invite them to
also
register their email address with the city so that next
time we have one of
those cases you've got an email database to send out
something with mm-hmm
that's a great idea I mean I don't think it would hurt to
have a one a quick one
sheet where that gets sent out once a year I could send y'
all a draft and then
yeah back at me with what you think it needs in it for a
true reason is that
something that we can yeah I think what will day yeah what
we'll do is for the
next meeting just prepare something to because there is a
residential I'm
trying to think of the one that was recently designated
they did get it
that's another that's a different incentive but maybe there
's a way to
just summarize all of that right I mean I think it would be
really easy to say
hey so happy to have you aboard I mean we can get into
details later I'm so
sorry I don't want to take up time with that yeah I think
that's something we
can look at yeah yes I got greeted by Oh piggycaps game is
it here's the
booklet for about what you needed to do I can see that
happening yeah yeah yeah
oh yeah okay all right anything else that needs to be
updated or discussed
okay there's no other business than the regular meeting is
adjourned at 6 13 14
p.m. thank you just a reminder if you have time to go by
the Appleton Center
there's some but who just but I would like it to get I don
't want more than
five five or more I don't want to go okay all right so that
already good so
I'm gonna head over okay I will get again we'll get to see
that project as it
goes forward yes and welcome to our new members welcome