Sep 03, 2020 Use-Of-Force Ad Hoc Committee on 2020-09-03 6:00 PM

Good evening, everyone. Thank you for coming back to the Use of Force Ad Hoc Committee meeting. Today is Thursday, September 3, 2020. The first item for consideration on the agenda tonight is the approval of the minutes for August 20, 2020. And if everyone has read the minutes, we'll need a motion and a second. This is Gary. I move. Gary made a motion to approve the minutes. Can I get a second? This is Travis and I second. Okay, Travis. And all in favor with the first and second, raise your hand and hold it up for a second. Willie, are you raising your hand? We can't see you. What are we raising our hands for? Because we're approving the minutes from August 20. Okay, motion carries. Thank you. Next item is item B. Receive a report, hold a discussion and develop findings, conclusions and recommendations related to Use of Force and the Denton Police Department. Sarah, that is you. Okay. Yes, that is me. Good evening, committee members. I sent you an email this afternoon, kind of outlining how this meeting would take place tonight and this discussion would take place tonight as well as the remaining meetings that we have. So tonight, really what we'd like to do is take an opportunity. First, staff wants to thank everyone. We've had the opportunity to sit down with the committee members one on one through the last week and really kind of hear more about what has been your interest, your input. Where do you think there's gaps or opportunities in regards to use of force in the Denton Police Department? And what staff has done is tried to summarize what are some of the common or shared themes that we saw amongst committee members and to use that as a guide to further facilitate some of the committee discussion around recommendations. So I'll be reviewing that document that I sent out to the committee this afternoon just to kind of give you some insight into what staff heard. And then I'm going to be turning over the rest of the meeting to Patrick Ibarra. He is a consultant that we have engaged. He's with the Mohandro Group and he will be taking the committee through further discussion to kind of vet through those items further, whiteboard out, really kind of develop further the recommendations. And Patrick, I'll give you an opportunity to introduce yourself. He has a lot of experience in terms of facilitating meetings and discussions with city councils, city committees, and so forth. Yes, thanks so much, Sarah. And good evening, everyone. Thanks for the opportunity to just give you a quick bio on my background. I'm a former city manager. I spent 15 years in the business before I started my practice, the Mohandro Group. And Mohandro is Spanish. It means getting better all the time. And all my clients are cities, counties, and special districts around the country. I work with a lot of community groups, a lot of elected officials trying to help them sort of unknot the threads and then thread the needle about how they're trying to build a more vibrant community, in particular to community groups, which is a little bit of a different dynamic. My role tonight, and I'll elaborate on this a little bit more, is really trying to help the group have an in-depth, candid, constructive conversation about what these recommendations are. And I would offer to you that these next few meetings are sort of the tough sledding, because you're trying to find the sweet spot around the content without wordsmithing it so much that we lose some people. I'll elaborate a little bit more on my role, but I look forward to working with you. I'm sorry that we're not together in person. We'll make sure this works to the best of our ability. It's a little bit more stilted, but I'm going to show you a few tricks up my sleeve, just so you can feel as though you're going to be actively engaged in what people are saying and then what I'm capturing and then what I'm sharing with you. I think you'll find it to be very helpful. We're going to try to simulate as best we can if we were all in the same room. So I'll turn it back to Sarah. Thank you, Patrick. So I just want to take a few minutes. I'm going to share on my screen that document that I sent out by email this afternoon, and just kind of walk you through what city staff heard from those individual interviews with the committee members, some of the shared and common themes that we tried to capture. The first is in regards to communications. We did hear from a lot of the committee members that they were surprised and not even realizing all of the improvements and changes that have taken place over the last two years since Chief Dixon has taken leadership and that we should be doing maybe a better job of sharing all the good that is going on, all of the culture change, all of the best practices that we're moving towards, all of the initiatives, the accreditation and so forth. And then also turning that into sharing the progress, so understanding that there still is progress to be done and there still is initiatives to be worked on. How do we kind of share that by measurable progress and markers of progress moving forward? There was also suggestions around creating a video series or informational campaign. How do we kind of package this information and bite size pieces that we can put out to the community to give more perspective to how our police department is operating and where they can find more information. The second theme we heard around was engagement. A lot of the committee members commented on what a great experience it was to go through the use of force simulator and really understand what officers go through in the moment in terms and give some perspective and insight into that experience where use of force may be necessary. And so kind of at least opening that up to community leaders and perhaps maybe even to the general public a few times per year. We also heard if we could continue to look at strengthening connections with the community, especially those groups that may be critical or resistant to the police department or law enforcement in general. Having more presence on the universities, more connection to the youth, we heard is a common theme. Since students make up a large population of the city of Denton and also just having more relationship to the city police department and not just the university police departments. We heard about if we could strive to increase our relationships and interactions with certain communities, including the LGBTQ community, people with disabilities and the Hispanic Latinx community. The third major theme we heard around transparency and accountability. So a lot of committee members commented that we have shared so much data with the committee and a lot of great data and info has been compiled and put together. How do we package and distill that information that could be shared with the public in a friendly, consumable way so that the public can also get, learn and have the opportunity to take a look at the things that we've put forward and the data that has been made available. Another suggestion that we actually heard from a few committee members as well is if we could create maybe a biannual report or a regular report in regards to use of force data, complaints and the dispositions. So this is the comments to the really appreciated the matrix put together by Chief Smith and sharing that information. Could that be done on a regular basis moving forward? And then could we provide some insight into how we're reviewing that data, analyzing that data and if there's any narrative that could accompany those reports to learn, has that data informed any further actions or decisions from the police department? We also heard to continue to develop a culture and a standard for officers holding each other accountable. Some comments, you know the surprise to learn that some of the complaints and majority some of the sometimes of the complaints are coming actually from officers reporting other officers actions. Another common theme was in regards to the mental health unit in response. We heard a lot of support for the new mental health division unit that has been formed and really wanting to stay informed and how that unit will be working and wherever possible if this unit could be leveraged as as much as possible in response to mental health calls. We also heard a common theme, a concern for officer wellness, making sure that we have the resources, enough resources and a focus upon our officers mental health and wellness as a way to maybe potentially mitigate use of force situations. So a lot of positive comments are on the peer support team but some questions if there's anything else that could be done to support the officers or a way to develop and monitor and watch for signs that something might be off or wrong with an officer. Another common theme we heard was in regards to training. Overall most of the committee members were impressed by the sheer amount of training that the officers are required to go through in their initial training to become an officer and then the ongoing training as well as the department mandated training. What we did here was if there could be an increased frequency of the mental health training provided to officers so if that could be done perhaps on a mental or on an annual basis. Same thing in regards to cultural and diversity and sensitivity training if that could be provided more regularly to officers. We also heard some interest in increasing training and awareness to engaging people with disabilities and that's both intellectual and physical disabilities. So although we are covering autism training should that training be expanded to cover further intellectual disabilities and not just autism. In regards to policy overall we heard comments that the department is doing well with policies. I'm impressed that process has been put in place over the last two years to update all of the general orders and then continue to update those general orders monthly utilizing the lexical system and best practices and in cases that might be coming out. The committee kind of most committee members commented they feel a little overwhelmed in knowing how to offer if there should be any changes or specific changes to policy language. And then lastly there was in regards to oversight a few committee members commented that there was interest in understanding what the options may be for citizen review under state law and understanding that further and just want to remind the committee that we do have a presentation scheduled for next week on September 10th from our deputy city attorney Mike Kronig who will provide more information at that time. So at this time I'd like to turn it over to Patrick and we're going to he's going to kind of take you through each one of these and try to vet out further discussion from the committee. We are not going to cover oversight tonight since we still need to provide some of that information at the next meeting. So I'm going to bring down my screen for now. Thank you Sarah. Thanks Sarah and so how I'm going to try to navigate this is I think it helps all of you when you can see each other in this type of setting to have a good conversation. So I don't want to put my my screen up which is the document that Sarah just reviewed and then you all can't see each other. I think it just helps keep some more lively conversation. So what I'm going to try to do if you have that document that Sarah sent out earlier that she just reviewed handy maybe you had a chance to print it or you can pull it up on your screen and maybe minimize it. I'm going to we're trying to we're going to try to use that as the as the document tonight to review and I want to be able to have some back and forth. So here's what I'm going to ask your indulgence a bit. We're going to go through each of these and I'm going to you're going to see my head turn because I have a second screen here in my office and I'm going to I'm not a scribe. I'm not trying to capture the minutes. I'm going to try to capture the essence of your comments. We're going to go through a few and then I'm going to say okay let's hold on. I'm going to share my screen so you can see some of the comments. This is as similar to what if I were standing in front of you at an easel with a flip chart pad where you could all follow along but we I don't want to do that exclusively because I think that hinders good candid conversation between all of you. So I'm going to toggle back and forth. It's not a perfect science but having done this with other groups in these last few months I have found that that's what they find to be the most effective. Now my role is I'm your guide. I'm going to try to guide you tonight without steering. I have no authority over all of you so I'm not trying to impose my will or steer you in a particular direction. I'm a little like your fitness trainer so hopefully you have your sneakers on. I'm trying to help each of you and all of you get a little bit better shape about crafting these recommendations. Tonight's a little bit of making spaghetti throwing things up on the wall to see what sticks capture the essence of it. I'm going to give you a little bit of homework as Sarah mentioned in the email today that the intent is after we capture all these it's not said and done. They're not ready to be laminated or they're not ready to be voted upon but what it's going to do is allow you to for us to polish it up get it out to you next week whatever you capture tonight and then the homework is going to be for you to really examine these recommendations because the challenge with community groups is prioritization and and I think you can't have all of them I would say for it to be practical. They can't all be a number one priority that's overwhelmed and I'm not sure it's practical so I think it's going to be helpful and there's no perfect way to do this but on the 17th we wanted to try to have a process you can vote for your top one or two recommendations per category. I'm a big believer that less is more so I don't want it's not about points or colors or some sort of sophisticated voting process it's kind of democracy in action you get a couple of votes per category you may vote for your top two and then we're going to see what comes out of that discussion on the 10th the goal is to capture those votes see how it changes maybe have a little bit more discussion with the intent of coming back possibly on the 24th for a final meeting and and finalizing all that we're going to see we've got some wiggle room there on some time you've seen that in the presentation at the meeting I believe was last week or the week before to say that the meetings are the 3rd to 10th the 17th and the 24th so we've got a little bit of wiggle room please indulge us tonight this process is not meant to be efficient but it's meant to be productive if it was inefficient we'd go around the each of you and I'd say okay tell me what you think and I type everything but it is productive you're going to zigzag a little bit and that's okay right if we move on to the next item and you say hold on Patrick can we go back to the previous one absolutely I'm going to ask just for the sake of effectiveness as people can raise their hand so I can call on you just helps have the conversation flow but what I mean by zigzag is we're not trying to fine-tune everything exactly tonight right I know not everybody has it ready to go like Shakespeare and here it's all concise compelling and consolidated it's a little bit messy and and I think we should embrace some of the messiness I'm also trying to just final point I'm going to try to help you stay in your lane you know groups sometimes drift and conversations can drift and I'm going to try to pull you back in to say this is about the use of force it's not a necessary review of the entire police department so that's where sometimes groups get out of there kind of you know they they creep along and they get outside their lane I'm going to try to bring you back please accept that in the spirit that I give it one of the things I take on face value is that you all have a passion for the community of Denton and that's wonderful right you're all volunteers you all volunteer to live there you volunteer to serve on this committee you may volunteer to invest your business dollars to run a business in Denton you may volunteer to serve on the organization or you volunteer to be in an elected office we love that notion of volunteerism you know occasionally the people's passions collide and it's about being respectful and professional we're going to try to instead of creating a collision we're going to try to create cohesion so you can create some clarity and I'm not a big fan of compromising because I think then everybody goes away upset but I would not use perfection as your gauge if you use perfection as the gauge like you're trying to exactly get it to reflect precisely what it is that you want then somebody else may want to sort of take that and polish it up a little bit so this is a free-flowing conversation and so I hope that you enjoy that we'll pause periodically we may need to take a break at some point you know a fluid management break or something just allow people to stretch gather themselves I know this is the dinner hour for everyone so okay and that's kind of just a little bit of the ground rules and one final ground rule I always try to ask in groups is participate don't dominate other people want to share we don't we don't want to just have monologues we want people to offer and maybe build on hey I really liked what what he said I really like what she said can we build on that absolutely and I think that's what we're trying to strive for tonight so embrace this messiness and so here we go so hopefully you have that item that Sarah just reviewed the first category is communications if you have that handy and I would ask you that what she shared in the themes of the interviews that she got she and other staff members completed what's not in that communication recommendation that you think should be in there so because some of this is about what's what's not in there I'm not sure just hashing through what's already in there we can do that if you want to that's fine but if there's something not in there that you think you know we really need to flush that out or this create the video series and informational campaign what other details right we're not trying to be so instructive as we are trying to be suggestive we're not trying to nobody ever says he's a really good micromanager so we're not necessarily trying to micromanage everything that about this process but you're trying to give somewhat of a prescription of specific recommendations there's a little bit of nuances there I hope that I hope that makes sense to all of you so there's about need to tell the story better sharing progress by measurables and markers of progress and then create the video series informational campaign so who wants to share about what else about communication or elaborate on some of these just raise your hand and we're off to the races and I'm going to type and again I'm going to capture a few then I'll share my screen because unless you're taking shorthand and some of you don't remember what that is I'm not sure you're going to be able to keep up so that's why I'm going to capture some share it and toggle back and forth without us getting seasick or something so okay so what do you think what's not in there that you think should be in there Pam yes Cheryl no Pam has raised her hand so I didn't see it no that's fine so thank you Cheryl I feel like a lot of times the police force obviously there's a lot of focus on things that they don't do well and I I feel like what we're saying here as far as communication and telling a story is when they do things well there's not you don't hear anything about that for example in mental health there are lots of times where they do things really well and there's no focus on that and at our center when they come out and they're helping someone that has a mental health issue I was telling Sarah about this they will be there for hours and literally do a dance with our consumers and I call it a dance because they don't use the taser they don't use any type of use of force and that individual doesn't run into the street they're calm their voice is soft and no one knows about that because it's not publicized and they've obviously had training to be able to do that so I think that needs to be shared and that's not yeah thanks Pam I agree with you I think that's something that happens a lot and just a lot about local government it doesn't really make the news when things go well it just doesn't it's not as good I don't know remember too many things like that going viral it's the opposite and I you know and I think that that is attributed to the chief and and what he's teaching his officers and what he's promoting with his officer so somehow that message needs to get out okay thank you thanks Pam other ideas about communication yes Rhonda and then is it Jamie yeah Rhonda I specifically am interested in the department using nextdoor.com to communicate positive information about the police force and I understand that probably they have access to it if they don't then we need to figure out how they can get access to it whether it should be the chief or Sarah or somebody need I think needs to be using that particular social media outlet okay thanks Rhonda Jamie I agree with all the comments that have been shared and I will say that being part of this committee has allowed me to become more impressed with our department just understanding the scope of how they are working to improve I think it is important to share what I would challenge or I guess the thing that I want to hear from the committee is how do we encourage our community members to do that so that it is not the police department cheering on themselves but rather those of us in the community sharing positive or maybe not so positive experiences in a way that is appropriate you know every other type of industry there's some sort of review process right where you can give people your stars or whatnot and so is there that mechanism for the department and if so have we shared it out or communicated what that mechanism might be good point yeah some of this is about the role of the community and how do you help them articulate that message and right as we all know there's no shortage of platforms and so much content coming out as 24/7 that it's very it's a very cluttered it's just it's it's busy right there's a lot of noise there so how do you separate the noise from the story and that's challenging governments all around the country at this time to try to what's what that's called is called social marketing it's a different version you're really marketing a mission you're marketing the marketing the impact so other thoughts Gary yes yeah I think one of the things that I've been impressed with is this profession is so very different than the professions we come from whatever communication the city and the department pushes out it's really gonna have to be tailored for a very I wouldn't say uneducated audience but an audience that is not very familiar at all with the nuances of the work you do and kind of the boundaries you have okay yes dr. Williams did you have something no no okay yeah there's an old saying Gary that you're not the audience for your message and I think that takes a lot of crafting it's like a teaching process right good teachers and they're not teaching to their colleagues they're teaching to students I don't mean that in a hierarchical way here but crafting the message it's easy to get lost in jargon the vernacular and and I think government already fights that stigma that it's a lot of acronyms or it's a lot of messaging but how how do you articulate that message so people hear you and you put it in terms go ahead I think Pam sees it in her mental health world we see it with social workers they're very good Lillian sees it in education a lot of acronyms a lot of inside industry knowledge expertise communicate outside our domains we have to remember I wouldn't say dumb it down but right say dumb it down well at some of that's calibrating right you're recalibrating the message with diet without diluting the intent and that's a that's a skill set right and how you craft that it has to be a conscious effort so all good points other thoughts yes Bo and then Lillian yeah one of the things I'd mentioned is on the it's on the other item suggested that in my mind it well under communications strengths of the department especially as it gets to the heart of even what led us here to this committee is way that chief Dixon and others have spoken to the issue of racism both historically in policing systemic racism currently that continues to exist and so in my mind in regards to communicate and telling the story I mean somehow what you know chief Dixon and what Yancey what officer rain as each through the simulation all of them acknowledged and yes racism is real here's our own story our own interactions with that we know this is a massive issue that is affecting our community for here's in terms of the communication just getting right to the heart of it I think is a strength in different public spaces I've been in with chief Dixon and other officers where a lot of departments may be less clear and acknowledging and just leaning right into that which again is a big part over here so I think in terms of communication and capturing that in a way that communicates to the heart of our neighbors that that's just really a big thing again was on this up page but in my mind would be great up under the communication piece okay well Lillian I think you had your hand up I was going to say kind of along the lines of what Gary was saying about the target audience I think I think that the police department has started to try to build community partnerships with the organizations and maybe more trusted amongst different community groups so whenever you're trying to communicate it might be the same information but you're disseminated in different ways you know a good example would be Spanish make sure that you know the press releases and the things that you're that you're delivering are available in Spanish along with that this might not be super popular but I think that the the trust breaks off whenever something does happen in the community and the communication that is sent out from the police department and probably rightfully so backs the police officer all the time I think from the community aspect we we would hope we would wish that the police department the chief would have the back of the community not that they're always pitted against each other right but when something does happen something bad happens it's it's like well the police department comes out and they're always going to cover the back of the officer if that makes any sense and creates distrust from the community members because we're like well of course they're gonna you know of course they're gonna cover that or of course they're gonna have his back it's not us so I think there's something to say that whenever something happens whether it's negative or could seem controversial that if there is a way to get in front of that news uh and acknowledge the potential controversy acknowledge the you know whatever for the community I think it would go a long way um Kerry mentioned as the teacher you know or as an admin I would think if a parent comes and complains well the principal is always going to protect the teacher right but as a parent I want to know and I want to feel that you have my back my best interest and you're not just going to cover whatever your teacher may or may not have done does that make any sense yeah I think I'm sorry yeah I think absolutely does I think you hit the nail on the head is uh that you know trust is the currency we have in any relationship personal professional a community to its members a business to customers you're going down the line and trust is fragile by its very nature and when it's been violated it's hard to restore that in a personal level and a professional level and a community level and so I think you know when trust is not there or it's brittle then when something happens it it uh the relationship can fray when the trust is there then people tend to keep people more benefit of the doubt when an event happens people are quick to sort of draw pick teams and then all of a sudden you're trying to um clean up something that may have could have been mitigated if their trusting partnership was there much like you're saying about what Chief Dixon and other officers are doing the more they reach out the more stories are told the more that they create some benefit of the doubt when something does happen people may at least give them some benefit of the doubt and it's not necessarily adversarial that's a very delicate dance as someone said earlier about that dance it also doesn't happen just by the virtue of the passage of time you have to do that continuously consciously I know Chief Dixon and the officers know that they're unlike most unlike any other city department because they're not only their role um but the impact they have on people's lives so let me pause here for a moment and share my screen so you can unless you've been taking shorthand so you can share what I've captured and I want and I'm just capturing the essence right it's not all perfect polished and packaged in a recommendation format I'm not I don't think that's where we're trying to go tonight because I don't think that's a good investment of your time we're trying to capture the essence of it so let me share my screen everybody see that I put it in red so it would stand out when they do well there's not as much attention paid to it for example the mental health calls that Pam talked about using nextdoor.com Rhonda talked about communicate positive information how are community members encouraged to share positive and not so positive stories sort of what's that format is what's that expectation um as Gary said that the messaging should be tailored to an audience that's not as familiar with police you know I would say for many of you that this is your first entree into law enforcement some of you even mentioned that tonight you just think about where you were three months ago and where you are right now just with your understanding of the complexity of police departments um we're all sort of part of the chorus right this is a little bit of inside baseball we understand it from a different vantage point goes back to we're not the audience for the message uh the way the chief dixon and others have spoken about systemic racism just getting to the heart of it sharing that with the group being candid and constructive conversations with the community uh that the police just starting to as as lillian was mentioning the police and again i'm not i'm trying to capture the essence here uh the police has started to build community partnerships to build that trust that disseminating information in different languages for example spanish that can break off when an event happens and the response by the police supports the officer's actions who has the back of the community which is an awkward position sometimes for the chief or elected officials to be in how to get out in front of the news and acknowledge that potential controversy so again i know this is not we're not wordsmithing that's what we're trying to do i hope i captured that best i could here to reflect the the essence of what you were trying to share okay so i'm going to stop sharing hopefully you gathered a few of that we're going to go back to all of you now what else yeah uh willy we can't hear you willy now we can okay all right and the one common thread that i thought should be discussed is when there's a problem with communication in in the minority community or just low income community i would say and i don't know if i'm categorizing the group but i i sense it's that group the need for communication usually comes up through controversy or conflict or threat or some something and i i suggested that part of the process by which you help in that area for example i i was mistreated by a police officer and he didn't take my side or he or she didn't listen to me and there there is the need for communication right there you need to talk to that person and help them understand that yes there's a process and here's how you do it well the one of the suggestions under the other items for career uh consideration of last part of the uh the information that we have i communicated that this is what's needed when that happens create one contact for the community to call to talk with an officer someone with empathy time patience have officers stationed um let's see yeah stationed officer in the community community for example in the business or so forth somewhere where they can get to someone to say whatever their concerns are that's not addressed people are threatened and they don't want to come to the police station but they do want to be heard so i think that's one major i'm just capturing that all right thanks willy other thoughts ideas sharpen this as we i think we've all seen communication is a mission critical strategy even in the best of times communicating that message the mission the impact the vision there's no shortage of information um the the challenge is how do you stand out in a cluttered marketplace because people get information cons we all do right and sometimes it's not compelling till it is it's not very sexy it doesn't pop off the page so it's like look that's a challenge i think uh for a lot of things about government which can look stale and a little bit i'm not saying about dent but just as an industry standing out in the in the in a busy marketplace so yes uh donna oh okay just so this is like an auction so if you raise your hand i'm going to call and i meant to say this earlier i'm not going to call on any of you i'm not going to go around the room so don't imagine yourself back in like ninth grade algebra class avoiding eye contact with me okay rubbing your temples or something i'm not going to ever call on you but if you raise your hand i will so sorry donna oh i'll call on him patrick okay i'm sure you will cheryl thank you you're the enforcer other volunteers about the communication and this you know tonight is if you don't if you don't bring something up tonight it's not like oh you can never bring it up this is a a draft right we're trying to create a straw man a sketch but we're not ready to laminate it we got we need some time there's a digestion period and a gestation period of these you gotta let you process these gotta let you think these through we also want to tighten them up a little bit where there's some overlap we might consolidate those right in your words we want to consolidate these and not just be a laundry list or a wish list what have you are the thoughts if not i'm going to suggest we move on to engagement which is a little bit similar right communication is about outreach it's about in some respects marketing both to the group there's mass media and then there's sort of customized messaging engagements a little bit more of a proactive outreach a little bit different they're in the same ecosystem but a little bit different so i'm going to move on to engagement hopefully you have those there i'm just going to read them to you it whoops in case you don't there were there were three four open the the use of force stimulator up to other community leaders and the general public create opportunities to reach and strengthen connections with the community especially those groups that may have less connection to the police department more presence on universities and at university events more connection to youth and the fourth one increased relationships interactions with the lgbtq community people with disabilities and the hispanic latinx community so don is that your hand raised now okay thank you all right go ahead um yes i on behalf of the university because that was one of my suggestions it's as being a student i noticed that and a lot of people notice that a lot of students eat up whatever they see on social media and you know with these times of uncertainty and a lot of police brutality going on around the country they want to be sure that they're safe at their own home and i feel like if we had better communication on campus and better engagement with um police officers on campus it would make students feel a lot more comfortable and not just something that stage but something that is um a continuous thing something that is like okay we're going to talk to you now or we're going to talk to you like six months from now like being there and not always in uniform that was another thing that i find um pretty imperative for students like me we don't want to always have to approach an officer um and all of their their gear i mean it's great you know i understand you know that's a part of uniformity but we want to be able to talk casually you know just like our upper admin they aren't always running around you know and um they're professional retired we can actually sit and talk to them and one of the things that i suggested was a tabling session um just something to get better engagement on campus because um i think we lost you she froze holler when you come back donna you had some good comments there thank you john baines good to see you uh gary and then jamie thank you madame chair yeah i hear what donna's saying and i think deep dixon's crew does that really really well in the school district uh i know what the elementary campus is so i think it is very portable to other parts of the community okay thanks gary uh jamie did i thought your hand was uh and then sheryl yeah i just wanted to sort of um on this point revisit the point that lillian was making that particularly in those communities where there may be a a trust differential and some improvement to be made that going into those communities and seeking out partnerships that will allow for better engagement is often like stronger than just setting up some panel and hoping that those people come to you right so it's finding those linkages and then being able to utilize those communities and those partners um to to have it be successful okay a little bit more organic than formal right it's sometimes it's a combination of both so sheryl yeah i just want to just make this quick point um you do realize that each of our universities has their own police department and their police force so it wouldn't be typical to see a lot of engagement for denton police to be on twu's campus but you can um always talk to chief garrison at twu or chief rentals at unt and they would be more than happy to engage and and talk to those concerns there it wouldn't be uh it wouldn't be typical for denton pd to be on those campuses and to have those platforms okay yes donna i'm sorry i didn't i my internet completely dropped so i don't know what have we heard most of it we where we wrapped up what when you froze there you were saying you want to be able to approach and talk with officers when they're not in uniform right to make it more approachable and then then you froze from there yes no and what i was saying after that was that students um definitely want to be comfortable everywhere they go and i don't know if what sheryl just said was related to what i said was that what you were speaking about um yes because it's it the question the way you said it it sounded like you wanted to have that engagement on campus and each campus has their own police department and yes and i'm completely and i'm completely aware of that but in our in our meeting um even with residential the resident the resident housing association on campus we have spoken to them and we constantly speak to our campus police and they suggest that we have better engagement with our um police department so that's not just coming from me it's coming from several students so i find it imperative that um we have engagement all around because when we step off the campus we're not just talking um to our campus police talking we're talking about um the denton police department as well so it's important all around not just when we're on campus no but the way that um i interpreted it that i thought you were talking about when you were on campus no on and off campus it's very important okay thank you of course uh camion did i pronounce that correctly yeah i just wanted to mention something around um communication one of the things that i did share is that it's very confusing the fact that there's three different police departments in one town um because there's the universities have their own system like people don't readily understand that general people don't readily understand the difference between someone that's in a sheriff's outfit and a police department outfit like they just see everyone as law enforcement so there needs to be some clear information about all of that because also that inhibits people from being able to express like if they have a grievance they don't actually know the right place to go and having to go one place and get told it's the wrong place creates a huge barrier to where they might not say anything so i just think that a part of communication needs to be clarifying some of that because i think a lot of people learn that there's a lot of different systems at play in law enforcement that we didn't i didn't realize that in one small town that this many bodies could be at play okay all right thanks camion um yancey is your hand up or yes i just really want to reach out and see what type of other engagements that maybe i guess the not the police department but the community because i mean the police department do have engagement where we're not in uniform uh like the uh the con with kids and the coffee with a cop and all that but yet it seems like that the community really don't come out for the most part to support that so what's a better way that we can communicate with the community to get the community involved because the police department is actually having these type of engagement but it seems like to me the same people show up the ones they want to actually be involved so i guess what i'm trying to say is what's the best way for the community to make suggestions as opposed to saying the police department need to do this police department need to do that offer suggestions on some things that the police department can do where you actually come out and support the police department okay that's good yeah i mean you can have all the programs from a to z it's it's how do you enlist people in that sometimes there's a barrier there for a variety of reasons um it's trying to penetrate that barrier and um that's a that's a reciprocal relationship which can be again uh delicate even in the best of times donna thanks yancy yes answer were you asking that as a general question to everyone be a general question but i just wanted that to be a topic that we discuss as opposed to just saying this is what police departments needs to do not only just denton but across the nation or you know the the colleges or whatever uh we do a lot of stuff at the police department but so that's just something that we need to discuss as a whole i feel like personally i feel like it's it goes to monitoring your engagement levels because a lot of people engage differently like a lot of people take again to social media as opposed to media and as opposed to like maybe mailers which is what i was able to talk to sarah about um it's really just about monitoring that because not everybody is going to engage in the same way a lot of people nowadays do engage on social media and that's how they're drawn to whatever you may be hosting so i just feel like that would be a suggestion you might want to take into consideration okay uh john you had your hand up and then katina yes i wanted to respond to yancy's uh question or concern uh as a community volunteer since 1986 one of the things i've noticed is that um the people that need to be at these different meetings are usually the ones that don't show up and it's very it's very disconcerting uh we've had informational sessions on a number of topics and a number of venues and the people that you want to be there it seems like they're almost never there it's very difficult and so my encouragement to you yancy is don't give up we just have to continue looking for formula 409 if you're not familiar with that there is a product called formula 409 which means there were 408 which didn't work and then eventually got the 409 which did work so we just have to keep looking for the one that works so please stay encouraged yancy don't give up i'm not discouraged i'm just trying to see and back to your point what what can the communities offer suggestions as opposed to saying that we're not doing this the community should offer suggestions that way they will show up we will start doing things that will get them to show up uh katina and then camion and then lillian thanks yancy and john i think that the bridge between communication and engagement is language and i think that that's been one of the tremendous issues is language because language is what you know just everyday language what we're communicating is what will build um community to trust police officers to be able to come out because you you you have to realize that there is polarizing language in this country that often um speaks to rendering um a devaluing of black and brown lives and um stripping of dignity of black and brown bodies and um even in the times where lives have to be taken the ways in which that is done by calling someone a nigger before you shoot them you know and not anybody on this panel but you know we talk about how um the the stuff goes viral let me just raise my hand and say as a black woman i i don't want the affliction of black bodies to go viral that's not sexy to the black community either and um i don't like the idea that my children could see you know the infliction of a black body i and in the in the lack of dignity that black people are treated um there is an issue like we wouldn't be here if there wasn't an issue and at the same time both and i do know that officers can be awesome and um i i know many awesome officers but i think that language so that you know when when a life is taken just expressing grief there's nothing that's stopping a police officer for from taking a moment to express the the the grief like the the you know the sadness of a life being taken even if it had to be taken in press conferences a lot of times police officers and i'm not necessarily speaking about denton city of denton police but um there are polarizing views that are expressed and we still have a dead person regardless of who that person is that person means something to their community and that is the language that comes across to the community because if i see language that's not valuing the sanctity of my black life i'm not going to want to go anywhere where there are officers in that you know within that agency because they stood in a press conference and expressed via their language posture and language is verbal it's posture it's presence um it's who you surround yourselves with it it's it's when officers get on social media and and high five uh white supremacy because you know the white supremacists are the ones that are like you know back the blue exploiting police officers and so i think that language is the key to really bridge the gap because people people know when people are doing stuff for optics and when they're being genuine and unfortunately the good police officers and the good departments are going to have to lean in um in ways that bridge the gap for all of the damage that's been done um and language um needs to be a focus so that um people know that man they're sad that someone's life was taken they're not just spouting off data like they they you know i've seen chief dixon when the little boy that was you know or the child that was locked in a car and i we were at an event together and he was talking about this child and he like visibly wept and i'm not saying that you know i want to see you squeeze out some tears but that moved me um into and put me in a pot like put my heart at ease like this is a person that cares about you like the fact that he wept in knowing that police officers see that kind of thing all the time that means that he's human and that he values the sanctity of life in a way that a lot of people don't in a way that a lot of medical you know doctors don't you know police officers don't people that become desensitized so language is is is everything and that's that's where you will build communication and that's where you will get the engagement that you want because people have to feel safe thank you thanks katina and then camion and then lillian yeah i think um i wanted to share something in response to gancy also and just as a community organizer like community organizing one-on-one is you go to where the people are you don't bring them to you um and that that is the piece that is missing and on top of that building off what katina said there's already a lot of distrust not even necessarily based on their experience with didn't pd but their entire lives of learning about what policing is so that is also a hurdle that um the police department is up against and that's also something that the community members have to work through as well so i'm all that to say it's not going to be some quick easy fix like this is a long time of engaging folks to break down these barriers if this is the goal of the police department um yeah that's all i basically wanted to share uh there's not a quick fix to that okay thanks camion lillian yeah i was gonna they both kind of just took the words out of my mouth and i know like with the coffee with the cup i know a couple of times i shared the flyers and i you know uh but i know like for example with lulac we meet every third saturday right and so it would carry a lot more weight if an officer a couple of officers came by our meeting sat through the meeting although it might be boring and then shook some hands and said hey can i see you you know the invite from the officer is going to where the community is at exactly like camion said that's going to carry a lot more weight than let me host this and wait for people to come um the other just ideas um you know attend pta meetings like obviously not in uniform maybe with a t-shirt and invite some of the parents that are there um maybe some of the fasten nights at the high schools where a lot of the parents go and they're eager to get information it's just where the community's at um you and t has an awesome program upward bound that has you know 50 plus kids you know from low-income families that are going to be the first to go to college like they have parent uh events and they're always like well populated so it's exactly it's finding the places like camion said where the community's at you show up and you're friendly and you hang out and you don't have an agenda other than to get to know them and at the end hey we'd love to see you and you invite them um to wherever you know whatever you're trying to do the the project or me style or the coffee with the cop or anything like that um the other thing i was just going to say um i think katina just it means she's put it super eloquently and it goes back to what i said at the beginning it's all about trust if if i see that the department like she said acknowledges the loss of life or acknowledges the tragedy or you know what i mean and you still have to do the work you still have to uphold the law you still you know what i mean but you're you're you're acknowledging that and you're human and i feel like i said that the police have my back or at least the department has my back and not just you know the officers um because i will tell you and i don't know that we can emphasize this as much anytime that something happens with any police department i don't i would say most of the time something happens an officer makes a mistake i guarantee you the department is from the perception not that it's reality but the perception of the community is that everyone's going to try to to protect them and hide that so that the department as a whole doesn't lose face and i think that that's very uh that's that's hard on the community because then you feel like you you know no matter if it was wrong or right you know the community is not going to get the the we're not going to get the the the word is respaldo in spanish but like basically backing that it means because it's a community member an outsider going against the police department um i don't know how else to explain that but it's it's it's it's very much to what katina said it's it's the trust it's the acknowledgement uh it's the being transparent uh and it's not just in uh press releases or the actions it's in the language like she said it's in the posture it's in it's in everything it's in the way you walk it's in the way that police officers are are taught to carry themselves um i will tell you i have lots of officers that are friends but there's like a like an arrogance almost that creates a disconnect between community members and those officers and i mean that with all the respect i'm not trying to be disrespectful at all i'm just trying to acknowledge that the disconnect that exists okay i'm not sure i can see everybody here we've got 27 people and i'm seeing 25 so if you raise your hand there are limits here with zoom about how small i can how many people i can see so if you've got your hand raised and i can't see you please let me know i can see yours ronda so go ahead um i don't know where to start this is really personal those of you who are talking about the officers and the presentation of self um in the uniform i'm i'm fascinated by this because i've never had a negative interaction with the police officer in my entire life never not once not here not anywhere and i lived in new york city i lived in new york city uh during the 60s when there were riots you know um so i'm not quite sure where i'm going with it but to me it's like we really have some different perceptions because i like to see officers in their uniforms i want to know who they are first you know who in this group is an officer it goes all the way from i want to identify them because if there's trouble i want to know who to go to and if there's not trouble i don't have to worry about it because they're here they're going to take care of the trouble it goes all the way from that to i always want to say how much does that belt you have to wear weigh do you have a backache from that damn belt it must weigh 15 pounds you know it's like man i'm i'm just floored so it's got to be about our different experiences in our past you know really thanks ronda uh uh jamie and then lillian and then cammy and i think you had your hand up jamie i was just gonna say i think it is about difference of experience and i think that when it comes to communication and engagement what i'm hearing is that there needs to be a balance of both because you're saying for you to be able to engage and communicate well it helps you to see a uniform i can tell you not from my personal experience but i work at the cumberland presbyterian children's home when our kids see a cop car roll up on our campus there's a lot of fear that comes automatically with that interaction and that is true of a lot of people in our community and so when we're finding ways to engage i think to come back to the points that have been made about meeting people where they are having our officers and having the intentionality of meeting people where they are is really critical because it allows for your experience to remain true and it recognizes that that's not true for many i would argue even most of our community thanks jamie uh lillian and then camion yeah i was gonna i was gonna say the same thing miss ronda i do not mean any disrespect on this what i'm about to say and i i know i'm probably gonna get backlash and that's okay but when you were saying that all i could think of that's privilege and that is because from the moment that i arrived in this country when i was four years old i was taught to almost hold my breath when i came across a cop to be invisible when i came across a cop and so it is it is it's everything that you guys just said and i think that that the police department i'm glad that this came up because just like we're saying in in news conferences and press releases and how things need to be in different languages and maybe you know that's the same thing you want to build trust with the black and brown community then don't show up with your gun you know what i mean if you want to build more trust with the white community maybe show up for regalia i don't know you know what i mean um but but i think that this has this is big you know thanks lillian and then katina has your hand up i was gonna say similarly it is literally about privilege i think from an early age i've been socialized to be afraid of what could happen if i came to in too close contact with police which even makes being a part of these meetings with so many police officers very hard for me um but it is definitely about privilege i have friends who have said that they have waived a police officer down to give them a ride home and i could never even imagine doing that i can't imagine ever doing that if something happens i likely will call the police last resort um just to like put it in perspective black women are the least likely to engage law enforcement when they're experiencing domestic violence that is how not in contact with police black women want to be and that is how much we want to protect other black folks who might come in contact with police okay katina and then willy yeah i'm i guess i'm you know struggling with your comment i do appreciate it miss ronda but um i would say that myself as a black woman i that there are privileges that i have based on education and based on maybe the area i live in or whatever um but my concern is the least of these um as a christian woman and there is a public outcry and it is across the country and there are you know decades and even centuries of brutalization and trauma that we have to work through and it's not subjective it's not about what i you know that i may feel comfortable with an officer because i have i've had positive and negative experiences i've had some very traumatic experiences and know of very traumatic experiences that i know are actually true um with police officers but in i've had wonderful experiences but it's it's not necessarily based on my personal experience as much as it's based on what um um what my people group is uh is experiencing and i have a burden that i wouldn't turn my back on that just because i'm afforded some privileges um and you know i would hope that even if i were a white woman that i would want to see justice for anybody that's a human being um because you know we all are made in the likeness and image of of the lord and as for me personally as a christian woman my conviction you know i i'm i'm i'm i'm a big advocate for like sexual abuse and domestic violence and i will advocate for white women because they're being abused and there are huge statistics like ain't nobody gonna abuse me like i will i would like my husband like i will take you out like i'm you know but i know i know many women like that's their reality and i have physically seen with my own eyes women be physically abused and my thing is it it map it it i'm not gonna just even though black women have by and large like the sexual abuse um statistics for black women and the domestic violence and the fact that 75 000 black women and girls are missing in this country right now there are white women in our community who have opened their clothes up and showed me their bruises and that's enough that's enough for me nobody's gonna ever punch me but seeing those experiences that's enough thanks katina i think willy you had your hand up and then after willy patrick we're gonna take a break okay okay yes sure it'll be a good time for a break uh patrick i we're off track we're we're way off track uh it's not that it's not a good discussion and it's something that probably we are discussed at some place but i'm confused not confused i'm struggling i'm thinking well what are we here for tonight what are we right now at this meeting here for are we trying to hone this thing down to a recommendation or should we just throw out the possibility of doing having a recommendation and just talk about stuff well i got some stuff i want to talk about i've been through a lot of stuff and i want to talk about some of it and i want someone to help me get through it please help me get through my stuff not the time we're not here for that i don't think i don't know so patrick i'm asking you after the break or whenever you help me get on track or i'm through i'm out of zoom call me gone i don't know what we're doing here so that's all i would say okay thanks willy so we're going to take how long of a break sheryl we're going to take a 10 minute break and um then we're going to come back and then we will be done by 8 15 however far we get okay all right thanks sheryl okay we are back uh to the use of force ad hoc committee um welcome back thank you for coming back we are um very much off topic um and i know everybody wanted to get in what they were feeling in their expressions but um we need to move forward with the additional items that we have for a presentation tonight because we will be finishing at 8 15 and then we will be back next week so i'm going to turn it back over to patrick but um from this point on if you want to have a comment or speak raise your hand and i will acknowledge you so you everybody can have a time okay thanks sheryl so we're going to move on to transparency and accountability hopefully you have that document there in front of you that you can read through those recommendations package and share the data and info that has been provided to the committee create a biannual report with use of force data complaints and dispositions i'm just giving you the highlights here continue to develop a culture and standard for officers to hold each other accountable so either to build on those or if something's not there in regards to transparency and accountability if not i'm going to move on i'm not trying to make a sprint but i'm and we can always come back but trying to keep it moving for the sake of the keeping you engaged yes gary oh i'm sorry i would just add determine data dashboards somewhere to those bullets okay thanks gary okay patrick yeah so the next one and i'm trying to swivel back and forth here the next two were more about sort of sentiments from group members about mental health unit and response i think as you all are aware that that's getting ready to roll out so the comment was a recommendation was support for a new mental health division unit and concept to pair officers with mental health counselors wherever possible use this alternative response and i'm sure as chief dixon shared with all of you during the presentation about this this is started a large part of a larger national trend a lot of police departments in all different sizes are starting to do this it's becoming adopted more and more frequently the next item again was more of a sentiment i'm not trying to just brush through these but they're more of a an idea with the recommendation contained in it officer wellness supporting for increasing resources and focus on officers mental health and wellness to value officer well-being and mitigate potential use of force situations and develop a way to monitor or watch for signs that something is wrong so if anything this whole as we all know this pandemic has pulled back the curtain on just emotional mental health for a lot of people and officers in particular and those of you that know officers or are you've gotten to know officers you know that their situations it not only impacts them it impacts their whole family so it's uh it's more than just them and providing them resources to cope with that these coping skills so i'm just going to move on to the next one which is about training which i know you had lengthy discussions about and impressed by the amount of training was provided that's more that's a statement uh the recommendation increased the frequency of the mental health training provided to all officers regular cultural cultural diversity and sensitivity training increase the training awareness to engage with people with disabilities both intellectual and physical many more intellectual disabilities than autism which dentin police department has been training on so sort of adding to that list of how they're addressing people all different walks of life and their services that they provide help you making sure they're equipped i'm not sure we're going to cover all the topics because they're things are happening on a regular basis any thoughts about that oops well and one of the things we talked about sarah in the uh assistant chief and i was just connected to use of force in particular um even connected to that biannual report and uh whatever sustained complaints that are internally or externally uh maybe thinking through how going training or at least focused training in the department can be sort of based on that data comes in throughout the year of just particularly around sustained complaints if there's a number of sustained complaints or whatnot just letting the sort of data of those help drive whatever ongoing training pointed to knowing that at different times in the life of the department there's just going to be different things to focus or refocus on and so that was something under training about is how in some of that data particularly regarding internal or external complaints drive some of the training in an ongoing way okay i capture that there bo gary yeah it kind of ties back to communication as well as accountability but to be able to show scorecard wise department as a whole where do we stand in terms of having completed all training for all employees across the department it's always a moving target but where do we add is even given point in time okay i added that as well anything else on training okay the next one's policy and there was one item on there i feel the department is doing well with policies impressed by the process over the last two two years to update all the orders and move to alexa pole system do not feel there is much to offer specific to policy changes other thoughts about the policies lillian and then cameo i'm a little afraid to talk now but i'll do my best to stay on topic thank you although i thought mr ibarra was going to be the one that facilitated that portion of our talk but anyway on um i feel that most of the policy that i've seen i feel that most of the policy that i've seen hold on a second lillian katina can you have your husband turn his uh thank you but he's all he's all yeah and there there's no shade being we're working as a team here so i feel that most of the policy that i've seen and i i apologize because i was trying to go back to my notes to see if i could find one in particular but most of the policy really protects the officer um i'd like to see if there's any policy that could be in place uh that could protect the residents of the community um i'm just going to throw that out there like i said i don't have a specific one right now i'll try to go back to my notes and if i can email sarah to find a specific instance then i will okay thank you cameo uh as it regards policy um i wanted to share that during my like one-on-one interview i mentioned how we saw a lot of different policies um but what shocked me was that there were so many different layers between the state and the local and the county um and making that like really explicit because i think when we had community members call in there were definitely things that they thought related to things dpd could change that they couldn't so like as a part of communication like making that more transparent and clear um around the policies that are state and not state and all of that other stuff okay both uh one of the things i i told you remember this or mr cronic but we we got and maybe even the meeting we took a while to talk through um use of force policy as it was connected to basically police officers protecting their own lives i don't know if you remember that and what i remember from that discussion was just the fact that at least to us reading it and certainly we're not filtering it through the legal standards that mr cronic you would or whoever there might be more aware of those things it just the fact that we needed so much discussion around it um meant that it wasn't clear to us exactly what it was saying until chi clarified it with his own word hence that may not be anything we can do in the act policy itself but i think on the occasions front of just here's the essence of what this policy communicating in regards to use of is that essentially officers when their life or somebody else's danger they can protect it but in any other it's inappropriate and i think that's what you had said chief and uh again the policy just didn't read that um forcefully or clearly to us but again that's because i assume it's being filtered through legal filters as well as others so i just wanted to bring that back but it wasn't as much that uh i don't i don't know if there's any as much as maybe that dips back into communication thank you thanks bro other comments about policy okay uh the oversight will be addressed at your meeting next week uh by the by mike crony to walk you through all the particulars for that the intent here as i mentioned earlier tonight the beginning of the meeting was to gather any sort of additional polish to the recommendations put some new ones out there what sarah and i will do is go back over our mind notes her notes try to see if there's overlap here polish up the wording of it best we can without you know trying to make sure that that's the essence of it and get those back out to you hopefully by the end of next week so you can look at those we're not sure how many are going to end up being attributed to each category it may be where there's not one or two so we'll have a process we don't want to make it complicated for voting but if there's so many that you need to make a selection there will have a process it may be there ends up being one or two recommendations per category and we'll confer with the chair uh sheryl english to find out maybe an approach to make sure that reflects yeah john or uh sheryl do you want to call on john and jane go ahead john uh thank you um i guess i think we've captured a lot of the conversation that i remember my only question is this when this goes back to the community are they going to say this is what i was expecting or is there are they or will the community be looking for something you know i think you know we're talking about use of force and all the things are so but for someone who hasn't been in these meetings they may be a little disappointed with such a um um straightforward presentation anyway that's just my impression so there's no disrespect i think we've worked hard and we've tried to get everything but when you when it when it goes on the front page of the newspaper and say this is what the recommendation is uh what's the response going to be okay jamie it is as if mr baines read my mind um i think that there are some things that i they maybe they aren't universal but i think there are some pieces about sharing for the community what is the responsibility of the denton pd versus other law enforcement agencies what are sort of at the third grade level how are we allowed to change or or develop policy as a department because there's law that is guiding a lot of that right some of those communications and foundational building blocks that we have learned as part of our ongoing conversations as a committee i believe they have to be teed up first because it makes some of then our future recommendations make a little bit more sense i feel like and so to the point about the dashboards and the statistics that we have received about the use of force incidents in the community my hope is that when we move to selecting our choices for some of these categories that if we identify that there are some spaces that are universal at the outset there are some other things that you know i think are important here so you know i hope that as we're doing our voting we there's some way some mechanism to take that into account camion ah i didn't have time this week to give approval for the statement that i wrote but i suggested that a statement be added to the report that kind of responds to the community's concerns because this committee had a call out to community members to call in and so we have a little bit of a duty to respond to those things um the statement talks about the narrow scope of the committee like we had one thing to do but the community clearly responded that they wanted this this that and the other and i recommended that the city put together a different committee not necessarily an ad hoc even if it's a research to discover what it is the community really wants to do with their relationship with dpd like the city should figure that out because that's what the community seems like they want and that's not the scope of this committee okay and and and with that being thank you with that being said we had a charge to come up with recommendations for use of force and i agree uh one time uh with willy because we usually don't we are very off topic and um we need to get back on topic we have patrick here to do that and we need to stay on topic with what recommendations that we have for the city and the police department with regards to use of force right now we have a lot of public relation things that we're talking about which have nothing to do with the use of force so we need to get back on topic well addressing some of those public relations is going to eliminate some of those unnecessary use of force things that could happen in the future um i probably will agree and disagree with you on some of that but right now we've made we've made what we are supposed to do is to have policy on use of force and what we would like to see and not see not to say that what you're saying is not important but just as much as how you feel about your perspective and your experience with the police department you have a whole other part of the city that feels like i don't really want the police department to do all these things because we don't have enough officers as it is what we want is them to do their job and keep us safe so if we can find a way to marry the two uh yeah i got text messages too now i'm looking at i'm looking at everything that sarah typed up because then we're off then she's off topic on here with mental health and officer wellness and then none of that relates if you're it does relate because if those particular if those particular issues end up with a problem with the police department and then there's use of force that isn't properly used then what what do we have what have what policy have we put in place to prevent that but right now we're talking about everything off topic willie did you have something you wanted to say yes i do i i feel the frustration with everybody because when i finally figured out what we are here to do i thought well that's just a small portion of really what i hoped we would do and i want to do but guys sarah summed up what we all talked about that we wanted to add in this recommendation and that's all we have is a recommendation to the city to the city council and it's a small little part it's a little small part it doesn't cover go anywhere close to what i my person what i want to talk about and what i want to bring up so i thought okay here's what he asked me to do we got to make a recommendation sarah has put all this stuff together that we said we want to talk about that's the topic we just got to stay with the topic it'll be a smart we will say to the police department something like this we think you're doing a good job wonder if you would just do this one other little thing that we want done as a committee and then be able to say that and the key words that the city councilman said they wanted was something that we if we could communicate clearly and that it was something they could do now that's how the small that's going to be so small minute that doesn't change what you this committee has done for me tonight i'm fired up so i'm going to address some of those other issues i'll figure out how to do it if i just have to virtually get talk to the city council over and over threaten my son that he not to come over and eat no more and we're going to see the children uh and not him the grandchildren i'm just kidding i just but i i i'm going to do something else but this committee has nothing to do with that we we just don't we're going to make a recommendation as to what we think the city council should do and this one issue and it's got to be communicated clearly and it's got to be something that they can do so i get that so that's where i want us to go from this point on please so i'm just gonna i have a question when the officer was talking about engagement and communication and we were offering our responses we're because it seems like going off topic is selective to be quite honest and some people get to have long diatribes about whatever they want and some people seem to not be able to speak and whenever they speak we're off topic so when we were talking about communication and engagement what would have been the proper response so i can make sure that i don't go off topic again because i want to understand where we went wrong from our chairlady thank you we are here for a charge for use of force and we have talked talked about everything but that where does communication and engagement fall in and again what should but that's not what they ask us for but they talk about communication and engagement was he not i just wanted i'm not he's just going over what you guys all put uh what all everything you guys when you talk to them he's going over the summary of what everybody said so when he asked for questions should we just not have responded you can respond to what the question that he answered so i'm trying to see where the off topic happened was it with miss ronda talking about her personal experience and everybody responded what was the off topic we we are off topic of what we're supposed to be doing and that is the charge i'm not here i'm not here to argue back and forth i'm here you asked for a moderator you have one and we're trying to get through this i just don't want to go off topic again and i'm see like i'm not trying to argue i just want to make sure that i don't go off again because then we get we get we get you know slapped on the wrist and told that we're not talking about what we're here for but we were responding to the progressive conversation well i would i will tell you this from this point on if anybody's off topic i'm going to tell you you're off topic i've tried to have let you guys have leeway and say what you have to have and we're off topic and we need to stay on topic because we cannot continue week after week after week and we still don't have any recommendations at some point we have to wrap this up charlotte if i might be able to help a little bit yes the exercise that sarah went out with the team and talked everybody about that wanted to participate you know the the officer's training the department's transparency of of information of use of force the policies as they relate to use force that was tonight's subject and the idea was you've had a lot of education in these areas training transparency policies they all relate to use of force you know and how well prepared our officers are how well we're sharing information these are all things that the committee when we first started talking uh might bring you together wanting to know we've had a number of you that are wanting to head into also you know reporting oversight options that sort of thing for use of force that will be the next meeting but you know if there's any ideas of where we're falling short on training how how we're presenting information to you on use of force taser type incidents and what policy updates that the chief's been working out with this team if there's any other ideas that we should be adding in that was the focus tonight next week we'll have a overview from michael on other options for for oversight of reporting it'll be and that would be the the conversation there but it's really those four topics that feed into the use of force recommendation so then trying to give you a little bit of perspective for again and just kind of remind everyone what the exercise was last week and we're just trying to make sure that those ideas those that input that you have what what else should we be adding in this feedback to the city council and those in those areas in particular and that's what we're trying to make sure that people understand what we're trying to do. Thank you Todd. Patrick is that all you have to present tonight as far as where we're are we finishing a little early? Yeah finishing a little bit early we we I believe we accomplished what the intent was to flush out and polish up some of these recommendations obviously there still the city manager. And you share all about how do we bundle this together for the next for not for the 10th, but for the 17th meeting again next week is entirely about the oversight. Okay. So, um, All right. Yeah. Okay. So Michael's next week. Yes. Okay. Thank you, Patrick. Yeah. So we're done for tonight. Sarah, do you keep fixing? Do you have something you want to add? Yeah, if you guys don't mind for just a second, I just want to let you guys know that although some of your conversations get very spirited, the team and I are over taking notes about everything that you're discussing, whether it's relevant or not. We're not here to discuss that. We're taking them. We're talking about them. And if you've noticed over the last few weeks, we've actually implemented some of the things that y'all have been talking about, and we're looking at other ways to do business. So don't think that we're not taking to heart the entire discussion in its entirety. We are. You'll see as many times looking at each other or looking down while we're taking notes. So I want to make sure that you guys know that this is not a lost conversation. That we are truly vested in making ourselves better and in turn making our city better. So I appreciate all the comments from everybody because that's the only way we're going to get better is if we're critical. We just have to remember not to make it personal. Well, and I want to add to that Chief Dixon, I certainly shared a lot of what I heard, even if it wasn't related specifically to use of force with the police department on a lot of valuable feedback from the community members and the police department was very appreciative of that. And you guys saw Dr. Williams as well in all of those interviews. So it was a really good opportunity for us to have more detailed dialogue with each of you. I know some of those aren't coming out right now here in this meeting, but really wanted to thank you for that. I know that the police department really appreciated that as well. Thank you, Sarah. Yeah, well, and then after that, we're going to close out the meeting. I just want to be prepared for the next meeting. Or to Staying on topic, which we're going to use. So city manager, you'd said tonight was meant to be about, you said there were four topics. I'm just trying to get those categories locked in. Tonight was we were reviewing some of the feedback we gave, but then Maybe what at least I missed on the front end that specifically we were honing in on training and policy. Yeah, and as well as transparency or reporting. How are we reporting on the instance. How does the community know, you know, what's taking place. How many complaints, we've had use of force compliance taser complaints so Chiefs already started, you know, addressing the way that we're reporting that to its more open facing. You've seen all the work that he and his staff have been doing on the policies. Is there anything that's missing and then the training. We did get a lot of valuable feedback from From the committee here in terms of, you know, really questioning our mental health training in particular. You know, and is there an ability to add coursework is their ability to partner more with you and T T W. You. These are all suggestions and questions from you guys that we are following up on Immediately following these meetings. So it's been a lot of these iterative questions with the idea was, did we miss anything And is there, is there anything else that you want to see as we're formulating these recommendations so we can get a report back to counsel. Here's all the questions that you had. Here's all the areas you challenged this and here's what we've been doing. The next the next meeting is going to focus purely on forms of either reporting or oversight. Because there's a lot of there's a lot of discussion out there about things that you know we possibly can do. And there's many things we can't do. And so I think Michael will be able to shed some light on that. And then we're going to put those forms of various forms of reporting in and back away and let you have really focus on what kind of oversight or reporting, you know, Oversight, would you like to see. I mean, do you think we should consider so it may not be obvious that you've done a lot of the heavy lifting, but by sharing that information. We just want to know, was there anything we missed. And we, I guess, by making these incremental changes along the way. It's been a little maybe not so obvious to everyone. Yeah. Okay, thanks. So next week is just staying on topic. Stay connected to the oversight conversation. It's going to be forms of oversight. What is what what's a possibility and what's really not a possibility and Michael will be able to take you through the state statutes on that and and try to explain that a little better as well. Thank you. We'll close out with Jamie and then we're going to close out. Go ahead, Jamie. I just had a question that will help me. I think to Bo's point, I'm going to stay focused on those topic areas, but I'd also be curious. How do you Madam Chairwoman, what, what is your preferred method for us to have some discussion and decorum that will get us to the end goal that you're looking for. How would you like us to interact with each other or share responses or things like that. You can still share the way you've been sharing. We just have to keep time as a factor because we have a lot of information that we still need to get through and we still need to come up with the recommendations I would I would hope that they would be brief and on topic. Thank you. Okay. So, Cheryl, Cheryl, can I just say one thing. I just offer to the group, as in all groups. This is going to be a messy process. We're trying to zigzag back and forth from the wide to the narrow and I wouldn't measure the success of this group by the length of your list. It's more the impact of what you come up with not you got 40 recommendations, better to have a few that are implementable than a lot that may just be well intentioned, but they don't really have recommended about what you should do. I'm just offering that as perspective. And you'll be back next week. Right, Patrick. No, because Michael is going to be just presenting the oversight. So I'll be taking A week after that. Yeah, I'll be back on the 17th. All right. Yeah. All right. Well, we are finishing on our meeting and then we will see you again next week at the same time and then Patrick will see you on the 17th.