Jan 08, 2024 Historic Landmark Commission on 2024-01-08 5:30 PM

All right, we're ready? All right, we are going to call the meeting of the historic landmark commission to order, and this is Monday, January 8th, 2024, and I have right at 5.33pm, and I'm going to call it to order. I do want, before we get started, if everyone, when you're speaking, if you will speak up, we understand that they're having a hard time hearing us on the TV, so just want to call that out. I'm eating on TV. Yes. You're on TV. Smile. All right, so if you would please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Amen. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to the Texas, one state, under God, one indivisible. All right, thank you guys. Okay, let's move right along to item 2A, number HLC 24-001. On our agenda is the introduction of our new commissioner, is it Eaton? Aton. Aton. Yeah. Aton, thank you for that. And Emma, how do you say your last name? Tepperman. Tepperman. That's an easier one. That is. That is. Well, welcome. Welcome, and we're going to let you introduce yourself. Should I stand? Well, absolutely. Sure. Just take that. Just like it's an introduction, right? Sure. Yeah. Well, I'm Aton Tepperman. It's definitely not pronounced as it's spelled, but I'm used to that. I'm on the spot here as new commissioner. I'm an attorney here in town, personal injury attorney. You can't put us in jail. I know I am. Hey, I'm here for the innocent people. Everybody's innocent. I keep people out of jail. Actually, anyway. What else? Wasn't that my interest in history? Sure. It was a lot of lawyers were history majors. I was not, but history is very important. As things are coming into town and more things are being developed and houses are being built, it's important that we preserve the history and where we came from. And then it's got a lot of that. So we have to make sure that we're doing something. So, you know, it's nice to have new stuff, but it's also nice to preserve some of the old stuff. Remember where we came from. So that's why I'm here. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. Any questions for me? Where are you from? Originally, before I moved, I'm on TV saying I'm not originally from Texas. I moved here as soon as I could when I was 16. So Baltimore, Maryland, until I was 16 and then San Antonio. And I want to say that the last time I did the Texas Pledge was in probably 2004 when I was my first year at high school, Churchill High School in San Antonio. And I want to say they added some words to it. I feel like there's a couple of things added to it. It's a little different every time. Where's your favorite taco in town? In Denton? Well, yeah. You know, that's something that I think maybe we need to work on. It's getting better tacos into San Antonio. Is anybody familiar with San Antonio? Like if I said a certain road, like 1604? You can say roads and they're crazy there. My thing is that, you know, Mexican food north of 1604 isn't really very good. I would understand why you said that. Which is the big loop. It's the big loop around the city. Well, welcome, Commissioner Tepperman. We're glad to have you. I'm used to being called Commissioner. You will. I hope I'm the first. Am I the first? Yes. Nice. Well, thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for serving. Okay, item 2B, number HOC 23-054 on our agenda is to elect a chair and a vice chair to the Historic Land Commission. So, do we have any nominations for chair? I guess Eve wouldn't like to sit on this chair, would you? I think I might need a couple more minutes. I will nominate Angie for chair. Okay. Do you need a second? Yes, we need a second. I'll offer a second. Okay, any others? We also have to do for vice chair. We don't have a vice chair currently. Right. But we do them individually? Yes, yes. Okay. Yeah. Okay, well, if there's not any others, all in favor of Angie Strickland being the chair of the commission, raise your hand. Okay. I'll vote too. I'm going to raise your hand and then I'm doing it. Okay. I will accept that. You got drafted, Angie. Do I? Yeah. You got drafted. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. All right. Let's move on to a vice chair. Do we have any nominations for vice chair? Is this on all of us? Lance. We're missing Lance. Well, that's right. Lance isn't here. So we should nominate him, right? Yes, in absentia. So is that a nomination for Lance or do you have anyone else? I need to do that too. Okay. That's right. Anyone else? Okay. Do we get a motion and a second? Do we want that? We would need a second. You want that? Yeah. Yeah. Sean. So you're nominating Sean? Yes. Okay. We have a second. So we have a nomination for Sean with a second. All in favor, raise your hand. There you go. Sean, are you voting? I'm abstaining. You're going to abstain? I have some integrity, ma'am. Okay. Nice. Okay. So Sean, congratulations. You are the vice chair. I'm here to serve. All righty. Let's move on to item 2C, number HLC 23-0057. On our agenda is to consider approval of the November 12th minutes from 2023. I know that was a way back, but they were in our packet. But I was here for that, and I move the approval of the minutes. All right. Lenny made the motion. Do we have a second? Yes, we have a second. And Sean, we have a second. All in favor, raise your hand, please. Okay. A minutes are up for you. Thank you for that. Item 2D, number HL 23-002. On our agenda is to hold a public meeting and consider making a recommendation to the Planning and Zoning Commission and City Council regarding an application for historic landmark designation in accordance with the section 2.9.4 on the Ditton Development Code for the property located at 314 Marietta Street within the West Oak Area Historic District. The property is located on the east side of Marietta Street, just south of Houston Place. HL 23-002, historic landmark designation of 314 Marietta Street. We have the presentation. Thank you, Chair. So as stated, this is 314 Marietta Street, which is highlighted there in the red box. The owners are Travis and Sarah Rimsby, and the construction date is circa 1940. So you all saw this back in November of 2023 for those who are present. They did have a second story or addition that was two stories that was approved by the HLC at that time. So I just want to remind you all of that before we begin. So just a little bit about the building's history. It was originally constructed for Ms. Susie Shepherd. It is that minimal traditional style. Since 1940, it has had 14 owners, with the 14th owners being the Rimsby's. It has been used largely as a rental property from the 1960s to the present day. So the request today is for that historic landmark designation. Just to provide you a little bit of that property information, it is in that West Oak Area Historic District. So you can see it here. It's right on the edge of that West Oak Area Historic District. It is that OR3 zoning, which is that overlay with the West Oak Area Historic District. The use would be single family residence. And just to provide you with that acreage, it is .2984 acres, approximately 13,000 square feet. So this is the property today from that front west and north facades here, so along Marietta. And then you also have the south and rear east facades of the current structure today. This is a survey of the property itself, showing the existing one-story structure. And then this is the older plot and abstract of the property. So I am doing a little bit different than certificates of appropriateness. Usually I go through everything and then I do the staff analysis at the end. So as this is my first historic designation, I think for the majority, I think Angie might be the only person who has last seen a designation come through in 2019. So it's been a really long time since we've seen one of these. So I am going to be switching it up a little bit. So I'll talk about what we're looking at in terms of the code, and then I'll run through what staff's analysis is. So staff looked at DVC section 2.9.4(b), and that is the approval criteria to be used for the designation of a historic landmark. So staff specifically for 314 Marietta was looking at A, which is also 1 in the code. And that's the character, interest, or value as part of the development, heritage, or cultural characteristics of the city, state, or the United States. The second one is J, which is 10 in the code. And that is the location as the site of the significance. Sorry, that was my problem, the significant historic event, my apologies. I was like, huh. And then K, which is 11, an identification with a person who significantly contributed to the culture and development of the city, state, or the United States. So looking first at approval criteria A/1, much of that neighborhood--so I'm not going to go into too much detail because it is in your backup packet, but much of the neighborhood that is north of University of North Texas, it was plotted during the 1920s and early 1930s with a lot of those residences being constructed in the late 1930s, early 1940s, so kind of around the end of the Great Depression, World War II. As stated, it is that minimal traditional style, and these were intentionally designed to be kind of simple, economical, and be mass-produced. As I stated, built largely during the Great Depression because of the federal housing administration, and then with the 1940s, it was produced in large quantities to combat the need for housing. And then as we kind of see in that neighborhood, we do see a lot of minimal traditional styles, but they're also mixed with 1920s styles, but then we also start to see the 1950s range styles along Houston Place. So it's a really interesting historic district in itself, and this house kind of tells that history of Denton and that development in that area. So the next approval criteria is J/10. My apologies, it is a little muted there, but Denton's La Leche League International Meeting were originally hosted at 314 Marietta and starting in the late 1960s. Ms. Leroy Ball, she was the original leader of this organization in Denton, and she was a renter at the property from 1968 to 1977. And just to give you a little bit of background on the La Leche League International, it is a non-governmental nonprofit organization that organizes advocacy, education, and training related breastfeeding, and it still exists today. This was in the 60s? Yeah, La Leche was originally started in the 1950s, and articles say it started in Chicago, but it is headquartered currently in North Carolina, but it did start in the 1950s, and Denton got their first La Leche League International group, and it was started in 1968. And I actually knew one of the members. Maybe something fun to add to the narrative. And then moving on to approval criteria K and L, there was a lot of information about these two families in your back up, so I'm not going to dig too deep into it, but I wanted to provide some of the article snippets from here, but they were both the Sheppard family, who are those original property owners, and then the Hall family, who were the fifth owners of the property. The Sheppard family did contribute a lot to the education system in North Texas. The sons were professors, the husband was a professor for what is now Texas A&M Commerce. So they've had a lot of influence in the North Texas region education system, which is wonderful. They also owned multiple properties along Marietta Street for the time, which is very interesting in itself. And then the Hall family, they were heavily involved with UNT and in Denton. They did have a printing press that they ran until the mid-1940s, and they also assisted with the Yucca yearbook at UNT, and they were also owners of more than one property along Marietta Street at that time. So going through all of that stack analysis and those three criteria that staff is looking at, it is consistent with our 2019 Historic Preservation Plan, as well as our Denton 2040 Comprehensive Plan, specifically looking at goal number one, policy 1.3, which is prioritization and designating eligible buildings and areas for potential landmarks and historic districts, especially National Register. And then our goal CC2, which is our community character goal, and that is preserving and maintaining the unique character of Denton for long-term sustainment of community character. So staff is recommending approval of the requests for the Historic Landmark Designation at 314 Marietta. It is consistent with our goals and our objectives of the Denton 2040 Comprehensive Plan, as well as our 2019 Preservation Plan, and it does meet our criteria for Historic Landmark Designation in our section 2.9.4B of the DDC. Any questions? Does anyone have any questions? And we do have the app in here, if you do have any questions for the app. I do. Yes, Travis. I have a question, which I think this is wonderful, and I'm glad that you made the application for it. My only question is, is there anything in there with it being under construction, with it adding on? Does that do anything to it? I'm all for this. I just want to make sure. So currently, any building permits that are in process do have to be put on pause until this process is completed. But in terms of staff analysis, the closest thing that it would come to affecting, per se, is that character and interest, but really, it's preserving that entire structure. And so that is definitely something that is going to be made. As staff, I'm going to make Planning and Zoning Commission aware. I'm going to make City Council aware that we're still telling that history of development. The house is remaining, and you're going to see that neighborhood develop over time. And so that really, it's of character and interest and value in that storytelling process, and it still is preserving that original structure. So I don't see it being an issue, but the building permit is on pause. Okay. Thank you for that. And then just so we not let our new commissioners know what the designation means, like what's the benefit for them and what that means. Is that going off posting? Or is that okay? Yeah, that's fine. Okay. So I wanted to make sure. So the Denton Landmark Historic Designation, it does get you a plaque, and you do get added to our Discover Denton Historic Landmarks map that is online, as well as there are tax incentives that come with this. You can get up to 50% of your assessed property value for 10 years, and then you can keep reapplying depending on if you continue to make improvements and maintenance to the property. So you can reapply every 10 years. And then I think Tina. I was just on your previous question, which by the way, Tina Fergens. I'm the Deputy Director of Development Services here. And so I think to Cameron's point earlier in answer to your question, also Angie Cameron, I had a fair amount of conversation related to this because I asked a similar question with the building addition being added. You know, I think if the original structure was being substantially altered where we were not able to recognize the original structure, then we might be having a different conversation regarding this local designation. But because the property owner has gone to significant lengths to be able to preserve and make readily available to Cameron's point about being able to preserve the ability of telling the story and the education of that original structure, the proposed building addition still complements and does not impact the designation opportunity for the property. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think with the designation comes more where they couldn't demolish it later on. It really does preserve that structure. And I mean, they'd have to go through a lot to do that. That's a benefit for the city. But also for you because that gives you also kind of a legacy project as well. Now you're connected. So this history is very real and tangible. I have sort of a general question. When we look at this, is there, you know, you're kind of hitting on three criteria that are being met by the specific property. Is there an ideal number when you're looking for something like this or is even just hitting one criteria plenty? So it's at minimum just one. So a minimum of one, there are 13 criteria total. So a property owner could come in tomorrow and say, hey, I meet this criteria. I'm sticking with this criteria. But as staff, we also review to see if there's any additional that they do qualify for that we just, you know, can give additional backup or evidence for to support them through this process. Because as you all know, it is a three step process. It goes through HLC. Then you all make a recommendation to PNZ and city council. And then there's a PNZ and they make a recommendation to city council. So it is a process. So I think, you know, it is stated that the property meets one or more the following 13. So it's at minimum one, but it doesn't hurt, you know, the applicant to add more. I mean, I would stretch it and say you can probably add L there, too. Were you? You could probably add more. Yeah, because adding that value. I just want to go on record as saying I find this particularly commendable because of willingness to both maintain the kind of regional integrity and intent of that structure, but also add to it. And I feel like, again, as we mentioned prior, love to have you give a bit whenever you get this completed and for us to show like, hey, this is this is kind of what we're striving to do. We're striving to value add it, right? So it becomes a legacy project for you as well. And add to that it's delaying his building, he's having to get this first if it's put those on hold. But I think it's worth it. I appreciate it. And I think it was Mrs. J.D. Hall. I have a vague memory of this because it's so long ago. She's in your packet. Sorry, J.D. Hall. Sorry. But I remember her. OK. And in addition to the LaLaja League, and I know one of the members of the league way back when. OK. When they were just scandalous women. But I think she would be very pleased. All right. Any other discussion or questions? Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. So if you all have any recommendations, if you if you do decide to approve or whatever next steps, you can provide me additional information. Just saying, hey, Cameron, we would recommend moving on to as we go to the next process that you add this and this based off what you reviewed in the packet. That might be helpful because I you guys did mention else. So if you feel like it is something that needs to be added, you can make that recommendation here to staff. So like in the form of a motion. Yes. Sorry, yes. Sorry. You recommend approval with adding item L to the approval criteria. Something to that effect. Thank you, Tina. To give you an example. That could just be an extra benefit for the other needs. I'll pass the motion in and say that CEDA is also meeting criteria L. So perhaps add that to it. It's just Louisiana, they call it land yet. Right. There's an additional benefit. And going forward, you have to mention that maybe in the interpretive literature talk about how this is a great vision for didn't going forward. So that's a motion by Sean. Long winded one, I guess. And I will second it. And Lenny is going to second it. All in favor. Thank you very much. Thank you. One down. Two more to go. Thank you. Sure. All right, item three a we have our work session now for HLC two three dash zero five five on our agenda is to receive a report and hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding priorities that prioritizing that historic landmark commission's work plan actions for 2024. Any other discussion. Thank you, Chair. So this is just going to be an overview real quick of what we accomplished as a group here at HLC accomplished in 2023. But then also we'll be moving on to the 2024 work plan and what you all want to accomplish in the next year. So 2023 overview, we did receive a total of 10 certificates of appropriateness. HLC reviewed only three of those and myself as the historic preservation officer reviewed seven. Most of those were related to either sign permits or fencing and ordinary maintenance which are all administratively approved approved. Historic tax exemptions surprising compared to our 2022. I think we had three or four in 2022. This year we only had one. So that was a little low. And then in terms of special topic items covered in 2022, we had 14. This year we had nine. We covered the plan division area plan so that Southeast Denton Northeast and then the sign downtown. We talked about the historic designation letter. We also had building safety come and talk to us about solar panels and kind of that review process that they go through. You also had discussions about public outreach and education. The code of ordinance specifically related to the Historic Landmark Commission. Marcella gave us a great training earlier this year, the camp training, and that was about it. So we did a lot, but we did see fewer COAs come in and we did see fewer historic tax exemptions. So moving on to 2024 work plan. As you probably all saw in the packet, but I wanted to make sure to highlight them here. As we go through the implemented ongoing from 2023, that means that it was started in 2022. It's just an ongoing process. Continued from 2023, that means that nothing was really done in 2022. So it's a continuation. And then you'll see a few new recommendations. So the first goal is that goal one policy 1.3 recommendation 1.8 from the 2019 historic preservation plan. And that is to prepare an annual study list of potential landmarks and districts, which we've now incorporated into our as part of our agenda each month in terms of designating properties. In terms of this goal, we did have 5 properties added to that list this year, and that destination interest letter was created and sent to each of those properties, but we did not receive any responses. So taking note and maybe lessons learned from that, but it's an ongoing process. Moving on to our goal 2 policy 2.1 recommendation 2.1. This was continued from 2023. That was broadening the tax exemption eligibility criteria for improvements to historic buildings. We did not have the opportunity to touch on that in 2022. So that is something that staff has brought back in front of you all to consider. Goal 2 policy 2.1 recommendation 2.2. So this is a new work plan that staff is recommending that we undertake. And that is in addition to this goal policy 2.1 recommendation 2.1 is to explore program allowing for the partial or full property tax exemption from the City of Denton and other applicable taxing authorities for locally designated historic homes. So one of the things that staff is hearing a lot of, and then I'm sure you all have heard in passing with certificates of appropriateness that you've reviewed. A lot of people are disappointed by the tax assumptions that are currently provided for the city by the city for residential property owners, specifically for owner occupied properties. A lot of people feel that the commercial buildings, they have both state and federal tax assumptions at their fingertips, but residential owner occupied buildings do not. So that is something that staff wanted to bring forward as well as something maybe to discuss in 2024. Another goal that was implemented, but is ongoing from 2022 or from 2023. Sorry, apologies. That is complete designation reports for landmarks and districts. So once again, that ties to our reoccurring agenda item that we have each month. And then we have three more, I promise. I'm trying not to be too long winded, but this is from goal number three, policy 3.2 recommendation 3.7 also continued. It is the update to our dental historic preservation ordinance to promote clarity and certificate of appropriateness procedures and historic landmark commission responsibilities among other ordinance enhancements. So that is something that we had wanted to do in 2022 with the creation of subcommittees. We weren't able to get to in 2023 just because of volunteer hours and the resignation of some due to health concerns. So staff has continued to add that to this year's work plan. If you all consider it. I think we did part of it. Part of it in 2022, 2023 because we did that. It was actually was that well, no. Well, solar was 2023, but the last time we met in person was 2022. Yeah, I know it's crazy. Time is flying. But I take that solar one as a win. No, yes. The solar one was a win. I definitely agree. I think that's good. Cameron, we had also discussed we thought this would be good to work on this year, especially with new commissioners being appointed to the commission. So we thought this would be a value, especially getting your insight on that as well. Definitely. And then the two additional goals or recommendations, those are new for 2024. So is to create a marketing plan to encourage additional local landmark destinations and then provide training to local realtors and bankers regarding what HLC does with the Historic Preservation Officer does and then local destinations as well. So these are up for discussion and you all are getting to vote and determine what you all want work for your 2024 work plan. But this is what staff has brought forward and based off feedback from the public and then other topics we've discussed. I have a question. Yes. So the new for new to 24. Yes, that goal to on the partial or full property exemption for a designated historic homes for locally, I really think that ties into the next page. So if goes into number four, to encourage people to want to do that. I think what we had here tonight is a great win for that on the benefit that he is going to get but that would even be a larger one. I think it's imperative that we work on my opinion on that one. I might further comment that to me from like a training perspective. Tonight's presentation and this particular example can also make a great illustrative example for goal number three. I'm sorry, not go number three, the one for further training to show. Yeah, realtors and bankers. That's right. Goal number four. So what happens is they then get something specific that's illustrative. Instead of trying to read tea leaves or read our minds. Does that make sense. You give them a specific example and say, Look, here is, here's an example where it maintains the original integrity. But now it's added value. Right. So it's added this value to it. So that that those three things might be able to be kind of connected into one easy win. Does that make sense. So essentially taking these two goals and combining with these. Well, I think they kind of. Yeah. I think you get that one. Which one. I think if you can get the partial or full tax. It'll affect the rest. I think yes. But even even if you didn't, even with the win we have tonight, I think it can. But I think that that is huge. So we might just tell our new ones what it is, what the benefit is. Should we do this? Ten thousand dollar. Yes. Minimum is a ten thousand dollar value that they receive for going for historic. So they have to spend a minimum of ten thousand dollars to make to maintain or improve their property. And then they'll can receive up to fifty percent of their assessed property value off for the next ten years. But you have to reapply every ten years. But that's the only tax that is available to designated properties. So that can apply to both commercial and owner occupied city tax. Right. It's not all taxing. Right. No, no. Yeah. It's only city. We're only talking about city. Yeah. We're not talking about state or federal. We're only talking about city because that's the only thing we have control over is city. We're talking about potential landmarks when we the letters that we've sent out for that, there's really not a benefit for people to do that. They just say this in general. They look at it more as I'm going to sign up for you to tell me what I can and cannot do. But they don't get a benefit. But if you go up to where they get a benefit of a partial or full tax, you know, exemption, that's, you know, maybe people would read that letter again. I wonder if we if the commission could be maybe in neighborhoods sometime, maybe a couple of times a year, pick a neighborhood that has some structures that might might fit our criteria. And if we hold a meeting there and if we open to the public to really explain and they could see an example of what we were talking about, we can we could focus on a structure in that neighborhood or more than one structure and tell them what could happen with that structure. Well, when he can ask you a question, if you were once, I'm just asking you just to pick your brain. If you were to take a couple of favorite targets that like, hey, you know that church can build a veranda or a yard or a playground or something that might be low hanging fruit as an example. Does that make sense? Like, we could approach them and say, hey, we have an idea. This is just an idea. But, you know, if you're willing, like, here's, here's, here's what that might look like. In other words, to have some type of pilot project or potential, you know, favorite to develop it. Do you have any that would hit you as maybe a need of some historic preservation. I know the AME had a roof problem. They still got a roof problem over there. They were trying to raise a bunch of money for that. So they had a whole church problem. But that probably wouldn't benefit them because they're tax exempt anyway. But it's, it's, we could use it as an example, I think, of what some of the older structure could do. You know, maybe we could drop, you could drive around and spot a project, decide on a neighborhood, drive around and see what's there. We have a lot of eligible properties on our historic resource survey map. Yes, yes. So we have that all, we have that at our fingertips. All eligible properties. I just think that people really don't know what this will do for the most part. And I think if we sat down with them and explained in a non-threatening atmosphere where they didn't think we were out to get them, you know, they might hear better and it might be better received in the future, at least. I was going to say I definitely agree with you. I think just having conversations, a lot of one-on-one conversations with property owners, for instance, Mr. Rigsby there and I've talked to some other property owners who have come to me stating that they're interested in getting their property designated, but they really said it comes all down to the tax incentives. They said that the major thing is that right now the city is essentially asking property owners to preserve parts of debt and history, but they're not incentivizing people enough because what they're saving in terms of taxes is still not going to get them a new roof, it's not going to get them new flooring, it's not going to get them what they need to maintain the historic structure. So I've talked to, Tina's been a part of a lot of those conversations when I've come to her having those conversations with the property owners, a lot of them have just said, hey, we want to designate, but we're not going to do it until you give us more incentive to because you're one already wanting us to come in front of the Historic Landmark Commission, which they said that's not bad as long as we get to know them and there's more transparency and we understand the, we're educated more about what that process looks like. But they said it all comes down to money, due to the fact that the economy is changing, things are becoming more expensive, homeownership is becoming more expensive, and they feel that the commercial properties are the ones who are winning at the local, state, and national level where the owner-occupied structures are really lacking. And so that is what I've probably heard, I think at least. To Cameron's point, I think with that recommendation to point to, I think we could explore what some other communities are doing to help with offering greater incentives. Obviously, we've heard from a few property owners that the ability to expand the tax, you know, look to see if that be something that the school district would be interested in, because let's face it, typically the largest chunk of a tax bill is the school taxes. But if the school district were to participate in understanding, okay, for them, they'll look at it from a perspective of what is the lost revenue that we might not be collecting with respect to the historic properties. So that could be one example. But I think with this, we can also look at what other communities are doing in addition to see what additional incentives are they offering to help people want to pursue the local destinations and really truly understand the value associated with it. So I think to Cameron's point, historic resources that are used for commercial purposes, they're getting an opportunity to have much more benefit associated with it compared to someone who has chosen to preserve a residential structure, right? So I think there might be some further opportunities, but I find it interesting that we've had several property owners come to us recently and expressing that similar concern. And so hence why in talking to Cameron, we felt it was appropriate to add this particular recommendation item on there and see what options are available. If we are looking at other tax exemptions, then that will be coordinating with the city manager's office and council and those that are in decision-making positions as it relates to whether that's the school board or if the county is involved in any capacity on how we might be able to explore those. But we felt like it was worthwhile to be able to at least put it on our work plan, explore this further, and see where it goes. I mean, we could have a positive outcome at the end of it, or it could be, you know, we're not able to address this particular item for these reasons, but at least it gets the conversations also going about what other options are out there from an incentive standpoint to encourage people to pursue the local destinations. We don't know if we don't ask, if we don't pursue it. So to your question, I think what you have for the 2024 work plan works well for us to work on. Anyone else have any? No, I agree. I like it. And just by way of like kind of a personal anecdote, I know the e-bike rebate program was an interesting program that the city has because I have a friend who actually took advantage of that. And they got enough of a significant rebate that it basically paid for like 85% of the bike that she got. But what happened was that rebate to her was in public utilities in the city. And that ain't nothing, as they say. So to think about something comparable, right, because I like the idea of finding some way to incentivize it that also provides them with like an immediate kind of benefit. And they clearly see the value is like, oh, well, that does translate to dollars and cents for me. And yet we have the number is like four or five, I mean, God forbid, 10 in a year. You know what I mean? Revenue lost versus, you know, word of mouth and positive examples gained is going to be, I think, a huge one. So just throw that out there. As the owner of one of these homes, I would be ecstatic to go for a designation of mine if I had admitted that. Just saying. Just saying. Yes, just figured out the right combination of carrots, right? And as you'll see in the matrix, staff is going to bring something forward regarding this discussion in February. Do we need a motion? Do we need to have a motion? Let's do it. All right. Turn the page. Okay, do we have a motion to approve our 2024 working, what do we call this? Work Plan. Work Plan. I shall move. I'll second. So Sean and Melanie second. All in favor raise your hand. Any opposition? All right. Passes. Let's move on to item 3B, number HLC 23-052. On our agendas to receive a report, hold a discussion and give staff direction on the historic landmark. I'm going to get the commissioner's request for local historic designation of eligibility. Am I on the wrong one? Nope, you're on the right one. So on this one, we were looking for if anyone had anyone to bring forward, if you saw any properties that we wanted to put on the list. We might find eligible. Anybody have a new one? Yeah, I was just saying. Do you want us to tell you what it is that we're talking about? Sure. So if you've ever watched city council with their two minute pitches, it's a similar concept where each month this is going to be a reoccurring agenda item where the commissioners have the opportunity to bring a property for that they think is worthy of designation or eligible for a designation. And you give a two minute pitch about that property, stating why you think it's significant, why you think it needs to be designated, preserved, and then everyone will take a vote and then it will get added to a living list. And this list will just continue to grow. And that's where that historic designation letter would be sent to the property owner, telling them, you know, the Historic Landmark Commission has interest in designating your property. Here are the benefits at the local, state, and national level. And yeah, so we added this back in November of 2022. So it's just a reoccurring item you'll see each month, so it's not able to go away. So Cameron, would you say in terms of a comparison? I don't understand. Similar to this evening where this evening's request was property owner initiated for local designation, this would be commissioner initiated. Correct, yes. The ones that you mentioned earlier in the report that she had on how many letters had gone out, that was based from that, from what commissioners had brought forward. Yes, and I have to say after this meeting I will resend the historic, it is part of the exhibits, but it might just be nice to have it in email form and not on the agenda. So everyone can look and start to see if there's any eligible properties. All right, so no one has anything? I might have something. So the Evers Farm development that is up for in front of City Council, they're trying to develop a plan. I was asked by one of the local historians here, Chelsea Stallings, maybe you know her, she's one of the thesis writers who actually did some of the recovered history of the Klan in Denton County. So she kind of sent me, she asked me to go do a walkabout on the Boy Scouts of America part of that parcel to see if there was any evidence of the possible cemetery. Through her historic work it was something that came up that kind of stuck with her. And she, she knows I live up in that neck of the woods and she's like, hey, you want to go have a look about. Yeah, thank you, you're pulling it up there. So at the north end of Locust. So I've got a series of photos actually tried to email it to Councilman Beck and to you Cameron, just to have a look see some of the photographs I took or whatever. Okay. I've just had some training from working with old graveyards right like things you look for a little sign to whatever. There might be some possible broken off fieldstone grave markers in that area. Behind the Boy Scout unit that they have built there very close to the fence, close to the gate that's adjacent to the property. So it could be something else I mean I grew up on a farm it could be some type of farm structure or whatever but these were definitely very thin fieldstone, the width, and the length was kind of on par. And I'm not sure I myself I'm not sure historically what was there before the Evers brothers bought that property. Now of course the history of that is that Evers farm because they had a complete pecan orchard behind them for almost 400 acres, right. And of course they came here in 1885 and bought out the Evers hardware store. So I mean that's late in the game, in terms of like, would that be like a possible slaves graveside or perhaps yeoman farmers graveside, but I don't know I was going to ask if there had been any historical surveys done there of that nature. Because I was able to go back to like the Evers but not nothing like prior like who owned that property prior. I was in the library last weekend and I went into some of their files and I found some 1970 like property atlas that suggested. So this is the historic resource survey map. And so these dots represent all eligible properties from our 1996 2012 and 2015 surveys that were completed. So you can see 1996 historic resource are high, medium 2012 and 2015. So the Evers farm is actually a high priority. It says it was 1900 domestic modified L plan, and it would. So, do you have interest in wanting the historic landmark Commission to reach out to that new developer and see if they'd be interested in designating or you just stating in general that it'd be interesting to know more of the history. I would be more interested in knowing the prior history before the Evers arriving there, who might have been that settlement like if they bought that settlement who they bought that from. But also the honestly the pre Civil War significance like other people buried up there, because there could potentially be a graveyard in that spot. And I, I don't know that anything has ever been surveyed on that spot for that reason. So that's why if we're making a wish list of things that we would like to see about putting up there. I know that a developer has that another currently trying to create plans for developing that. I feel like this might be a worthwhile conversation to have. I've made note of that for the conversation itself and doing kind of the research, we would not add it to the living list per se because it's more specific designation. But yeah, I definitely made note of it so I'll share my photos with you. Perfect. Yeah, you want to go up there and have a walk about what I'm seeing up there. All right, anyone else. Thank you, Sean. All right. Let's move on and see. Item 3C number HLC 23-053 on the agenda is to hold a discussion regarding the Historic Landmark Commission Project Matrix. Thank you. So these are the requests that we have. Staff is planning on bringing the kind of economic impact of preserving historic properties, as well as a discussion regarding benefits for preserving historic properties and how other cities are incentivizing owners. So those are both going to come back in February. We did have that request for presentation of preliminary guidelines, so that has just remained on there. Obviously it was not presented in 2023 so we need to update that. Items for Historic Landmark Commission consideration. These are two items that myself as a historic preservation officer put together in late December of this past year. And this would be a walking tour of historic districts and landmarks to familiarize HLC with properties that they have jurisdiction over, as well as a focus group of historic property owners to discuss present historic preservation procedures and incentives. So those are two items for consideration. You would have to vote. We would need a minimum of three votes to add that to our actual request and move that up. And then obviously the annual update regarding those different work plan goals from 2023. Yeah, let's move that up. So I will make a motion that we need those two items under the consideration up into requests. We need a minimum of three. So, and then obviously we were future HLC meetings, they're just going to continue to be listed here for the remainder of the year. Anything else. Is there any benefit of the possibility of limiting changes to a structure to the churches in southeast and might qualify our designation as historic landmarks, since they already as a church. So there are benefits at the state level for churches for religious organizations, and that was included in their destination letter. Can I ask if anyone from this body is going to be able to attend the Quaker town thing that's happening on Saturday. No, no, it's okay. We're just making sure. Okay, so that that would be concluding. Yes. Yes. So suggest that there's an event about Quaker town the kind of end of the commemoration is happening on Saturday. We're planning to attend. We might have a, maybe a couple of us a group of us could go and approach some of the people from these churches and like give them kind of the one on one about possible historic and hey did you. In case you missed it. Here's the handoff of the cool packet stuff and let me give you the elevator. Okay, tell me we can post notice of possible quorum. Okay. Yep. Yeah, so glad you said that event right. Yeah, just post that for just we have to, you know, which I think is a great idea. I didn't know about it. I didn't know about it either. Yeah, so, yeah, the newspaper we lots of things we don't know about. Yeah. Right. So yeah, so that's happening. I will. Dang it it's on my downtown or Facebook or sharing the heck out of it. So yeah, so it's the end of celebration for the. What is it the sesquicentennial I can't remember, but it's, it's, it's the formal thing so it's kind of the last meeting, they're telling the Quaker town story you're also going to have folks I believe they're doing that Quaker town documentary there to try to solicit people for interviews, and things to for that. So, that's happening this Saturday at. Get out my robot brain sorry. Saturday the 13th, it's called Quaker town speaks. It'll be at 10am and I was wrong, it's at the Denton Civic Center. Quaker town speaks is what the name of the event is. It's put on through the, the library, and also some of the Quaker town committee. Thank you for that. So y'all can post for possible. I don't know if you have one or not, but it'd be safe I think to do a lazy song. Love it. That way to just kind of show them and kind of run a highlighter over for him sometimes that for me that works better in terms of getting their attention. Yeah, I was gonna say I'm happy. I unfortunately cannot attend on Saturday, but I'm happy to get those materials printed tomorrow someone wants to come by and I can make sure we get everything highlighted that really needs to draw their attention because there is a grant specifically for African American Okay, I'll let you know when they're ready. Thank you for dinner.