WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.800 >> Ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the planning and zoning commission work session 00:00:07.800 --> 00:00:12.900 for October 21st, 2020. Seeing that we have a quorum, I'll call this meeting to order 00:00:12.900 --> 00:00:20.040 at 432. Please let the record show that at this time, Commissioner Anderson is absent. 00:00:20.040 --> 00:00:24.860 And with that, we'll just go ahead and jump right into our work session reports. The first 00:00:24.860 --> 00:00:30.120 one is to receive a report and hold the discussion regarding the trails concept map for future 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:34.400 identification, renovation, and expansion of facilities and trails. And I will assume 00:00:34.400 --> 00:00:39.360 let Gary Packins take it from here. >> Thank you very much. Let me go ahead and 00:00:39.360 --> 00:00:58.520 bring that up. It doesn't look like it's showing. Share screen. And there we go. Okay. Thank 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:02.960 you very much, Gary Packins, Director of Parks and Recreation. We have a few other staff 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:08.680 members and a consultant on board, Dr. Joseph Walkers from University of North Texas. He's 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:14.840 been helping us on this plan for the past 18 months or so, really volunteering at this 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:22.920 point in time, well past any support that he's had financially. And then Drew Huffman, 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:28.240 who's an Assistant Director of Parks and Recreation, and Heather Gray is our Business Manager. 00:01:28.240 --> 00:01:35.640 So we've been working on our Parks, Recreation, and Trails Master Plan for about 18 months. 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:40.760 We had the staff member that was kind of our key point. He went to another job and then 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:45.880 COVID hit. So it really took a pause there for a number of months. But during this time, 00:01:45.880 --> 00:01:51.740 we've been working on the Trails Plan. And it's really a chapter, but it's a large portion 00:01:51.740 --> 00:01:55.840 of our Master Plan just because the amount of information that we've been working on. 00:01:55.840 --> 00:02:01.920 So we wanted to spend a few minutes, go through what we've been working on, and then flip 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:07.620 over to a GIS map and just kind of walk you through some of the trails and then gather 00:02:07.620 --> 00:02:13.760 as much feedback as we can. We plan on going to council in November and scrubbing everything 00:02:13.760 --> 00:02:18.960 back up if we need to make adjustments and then eventually taking it to council later 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:27.240 in 2021. So overall, trails and really in DFW are number one requested recreational 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:35.440 resource across most cities in DFW and obviously very popular. People of all ages and abilities 00:02:35.440 --> 00:02:40.800 can go out and use those. So it's a really way, not just for recreational, but also for 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:45.900 personal transportation, going to various places if people are depending on that resource 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:52.000 for transportation. Our existing trails, we're going to talk a little bit about the current 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:58.200 trails network and then also a series of new trails that we're looking forward to, not 00:02:58.200 --> 00:03:06.800 just surface, but water trails, as well as equestrian trails and a few others. So from 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:13.440 a multi-purpose trail, they foster obviously physical activity, their multi-purpose recreational 00:03:13.440 --> 00:03:19.160 assets for physical activity and health and wellness, transportation for people to go 00:03:19.160 --> 00:03:26.080 to work, get to school, whether it's college or elementary, and then obviously mobility 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:35.200 just to create connectivities and opportunities between neighborhoods and parks. One major 00:03:35.200 --> 00:03:41.200 component is what we're calling a side path, and that is to help improve non-motorized 00:03:41.200 --> 00:03:47.600 mobility as well. This is typically designated whether it's 10 feet, 8 feet. We're shooting 00:03:47.600 --> 00:03:54.200 for 10 feet as much as we can to provide that separate path for safety so people aren't 00:03:54.200 --> 00:03:58.160 on street as much as they can. Sometimes we have to be on street just because of the way 00:03:58.160 --> 00:04:06.760 that the road is and the width of the right-of-way. So currently right now, we have about 21 miles 00:04:06.760 --> 00:04:12.600 of trails with inside our park system. Where we're at right now with our plan is we have 00:04:12.600 --> 00:04:18.480 about 32 miles that are planned for future development, and when we say future development, 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:24.800 that's probably 25, 40 years at this point in time, long term, pending obviously a revenue 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:30.480 stream to help offset that construction. We have a series of trails planned for creeks 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:36.000 that are following the greenways, and that's another little 21 miles of trails that we 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:42.520 have currently and 17 that are planned. And then side paths, we have zero on here because 00:04:42.520 --> 00:04:47.600 when we started, we didn't have any, but May Hill's been completed, Vintage is getting 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:52.280 poured right now, and some of Bonnie Gray's getting poured. So there's another 130 miles 00:04:52.280 --> 00:04:59.920 of trail opportunities that would be called side paths. Then connectors, these are various 00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:04.840 areas, and a lot of these are under our text dot roadways where we have those major pinch 00:05:04.840 --> 00:05:11.480 points for major intersections, connecting one trail to another. Our paddling trails, 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:16.120 and these are the easiest one to build because it's just using existing waterways. Obviously 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:21.880 getting people into the waterways is the majority of that expense, and then signage or buoys 00:05:21.880 --> 00:05:26.320 identifying where the safe places to go are, and it's really a marketing campaign as well 00:05:26.320 --> 00:05:31.880 to get people out using your water activities, your waterways. So right now we have about 00:05:31.880 --> 00:05:36.880 30 miles of those planned, and realistically long term, we'd love to see a trail around 00:05:36.880 --> 00:05:42.200 Lake Louisville, which would be 100 mile paddling challenge going around the perimeter, and 00:05:42.200 --> 00:05:45.920 we actually have some discussions tomorrow planned with Texas Parks and Wildlife about 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:51.220 paddling trails. And then equestrian trails, and this one is really still up for grabs. 00:05:51.220 --> 00:05:57.340 We don't have anything designated for horses, but we found a few areas that might be ideal 00:05:57.340 --> 00:06:03.660 for that. It's obviously a lot of flexibility in the planning, but that's just a high water 00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:10.920 mark that we could focus on some areas and get some equestrian enthusiasts interested. 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:17.840 So overall, we have a plan that would link 18 of the parks together through trails, and 00:06:17.840 --> 00:06:23.040 those are connected just for parks. We also have additional businesses, schools, city 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:30.880 assets, downtown being a major one. The train stations and the train stops would be another 00:06:30.880 --> 00:06:36.300 significant opportunity as well. In total, we have 210, actually probably a little bit 00:06:36.300 --> 00:06:41.120 more at this point in time, in proposed miles of trails, and that's everything that I just 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:47.680 talked about, including equestrian and paddling trails. About $60 million in estimated capital 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:54.240 construction, and that's in today's dollars. And then that does not include the side paths 00:06:54.240 --> 00:07:00.240 along the roadways. And then about $550,000 in estimated maintenance, and that's just 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:07.120 a ballpark figure. So obviously compliance considerations and concerns, obviously inclusion 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:12.800 to make sure we're making sure that everything is accessible to all abilities. We're looking 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:18.800 at safety measures, whether it's call boxes or lighting or even some sort of a patrol 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:26.040 system, various types of surfaces, and then signage. So inclusion, obviously, this is 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:34.040 a big one. Whether you're on a bike and you have some barriers, inability challenges, 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:40.560 or in a wheelchair, or you're, you know, anyway, we want to make sure that it's easy for you 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:45.360 to get around, get back and forth on the trails. A lot of our trails, obviously, are crossing 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:50.620 roadways, and we need to make sure that they're safe and for people of all ages and abilities 00:07:50.620 --> 00:08:04.920 to to meander through our park system. Whether it's a bridge, an intersection, a sidewinder 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:10.040 when you're going through an S curve to get across the street, slowing traffic down, not 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:13.800 just for the people, but for the cars as well. Obviously, there's safety concerns from both. 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:19.040 And obviously, people on a bike are going to get hurt more seriously compared to a car. 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:26.480 But we need to figure out where we have those major cross points that are safe for everybody. 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:31.320 As I just mentioned, this is South Lake, and this is one location that one of our public 00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:37.440 meetings someone had expressed is those trail crossings, getting from a park into a neighborhood 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:44.280 is a big challenge for us. Looking at call boxes for safety and finding out where those 00:08:44.280 --> 00:08:50.080 key locations are. We've even talked about putting chargers in certain areas. So if your 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:54.720 phone dies, you could pull over for a little bit and charge it just so you have that ability 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:59.240 to make a call in case of emergency, even if you just wrecked on your bike on your own 00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:03.480 and you broke your ankle and you can't do anything and your phone's dead, at least try 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:10.920 to have the opportunities for people to charge phones. 00:09:10.920 --> 00:09:16.560 Crossing alert system, similar to what we have right outside here, where you hit a button 00:09:16.560 --> 00:09:22.280 or if it's maybe automatic where it's motion-censored would be an opportunity. So when someone's 00:09:22.280 --> 00:09:28.240 coming up to an intersection, that light could automatically start in allowing traffic that 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:34.480 there's a potential cross coming up. 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:40.920 From a trail safety, we've had, there's like any of our parks, we have issues and challenges 00:09:40.920 --> 00:09:45.240 and opportunities that we need to figure out how to make the best out of. One opportunity 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:52.080 is obviously you can have police officers on bikes, on a bike patrol, or you could have 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:58.000 park rangers where they're just trained volunteers, they're not badged, they don't have authority, 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:03.700 but they're the eyes and ears out on the trail system. So if they see a maintenance issue, 00:10:03.700 --> 00:10:09.440 if they see illegal dumping, or if someone just wants to stop and talk to them about 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:14.440 a concern or issue they have, it's an eyes and ears out on the road that we can communicate 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:20.080 with people. And that could be a volunteer type of situation, or it could be various 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:23.700 paid positions or combination thereof. 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:29.320 From a CPTED standpoint, crime prevention through environmental design, we did one of 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:34.940 these on Quaker Town Park this summer, and that is something that we'd look through the 00:10:34.940 --> 00:10:38.980 planning when we do all of our trails to make sure that we have adequate safety measures 00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:47.320 in place, and we don't have any built in barriers that would create opportunities for inappropriate 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:48.320 activity. 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:54.020 Hey Gary, can I interrupt you real fast? Can you provide an example of a CPTED? I'm just 00:10:54.020 --> 00:10:59.400 trying to grasp, what does that actually look like at Quaker Town? What do y'all think of? 00:10:59.400 --> 00:11:04.980 So one example at Quaker Town that came up in the report was lighting under the bridges, 00:11:04.980 --> 00:11:08.640 the two bridges that we have, so people can't hide under there, and someone crosses the 00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:14.280 bridge at two o'clock in the morning, walking home from work, and someone's hiding in there, 00:11:14.280 --> 00:11:18.520 and then just jumps out. I'm just kind of eliminating those opportunities where somebody 00:11:18.520 --> 00:11:23.760 can hide, where there's bushes really close to a road where someone can hide in a bush, 00:11:23.760 --> 00:11:27.960 that type of activity, just to improve safety. 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:30.720 I appreciate that. And Commissioner Beck, you have a question. 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:35.120 Yes, Chair, thank you. Gary, while we're on this topic, and since Chair brought it up, 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:42.240 how for these various lights and these various sensors, I assume this is wireless and solar 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.680 powered? 00:11:44.680 --> 00:11:45.680 You're talking about the crossings? 00:11:45.680 --> 00:11:52.100 Either the crossings and these, the under bridge sensors and other lights and charging 00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:55.960 stations and all that. These are wireless and solar powered? 00:11:55.960 --> 00:12:02.280 Yeah, so we would obviously try to use wireless and solar power wherever we can. Obviously, 00:12:02.280 --> 00:12:09.280 if we have an eight mile trail like the DCTA rail trail, we can't afford to run electric 00:12:09.280 --> 00:12:15.140 down that whole stretch. So we're going to be dependent on solar power whenever we can. 00:12:15.140 --> 00:12:19.160 If there's opportunities that it makes sense to go ahead and wire it in because we have 00:12:19.160 --> 00:12:22.680 electric right here, then we can look at that for sure. 00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:23.680 Thank you. 00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:24.680 You're welcome. 00:12:24.680 --> 00:12:25.680 Commissioner Perneto. 00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:31.400 Yeah, and a question on this one. So when we're talking about trail safety, I do see that 00:12:31.400 --> 00:12:36.840 there'll be patrols and monitors, and we talked about lights. One of the things that I'm just 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:41.480 curious about, and I don't know what our options are, there are always going to be areas that 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:47.760 are susceptible to something. I have a lot of friends who are women who like to go walking 00:12:47.760 --> 00:12:55.080 but are nervous about walking by themselves, even during the daytime. Are we going to have 00:12:55.080 --> 00:13:01.080 any infrastructure for camera monitoring, that kind of thing, in areas where we identify 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.560 as possibly dangerous or something like that? 00:13:05.560 --> 00:13:09.960 We're actually talking about something similar to that today for illegal dumping. We have 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:13.600 that activity going on throughout the city and trying to figure out how we can put cameras 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:19.520 in certain places that we could monitor it live and see when something's happening. Same 00:13:19.520 --> 00:13:25.480 situation here, and Dr. Walker or Drew, please chime in, but if we have areas that we know 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:30.720 maybe we've had frequent issues or it's a pinch point where we have some concerns, we 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:39.400 could definitely put roving cameras in there to try to help deter that activity and try 00:13:39.400 --> 00:13:41.760 to improve that safety ability. 00:13:41.760 --> 00:13:47.440 Gary, this is Drew Huffman, Assistant Director of Park and Recreation. We are looking at 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:52.160 those. In fact, like Gary said, we had a conversation earlier today about that, and I've already 00:13:52.160 --> 00:13:59.040 reached out to tech services to see what our options are. We've given them options of what 00:13:59.040 --> 00:14:03.540 we've looked at, and then maybe they know something that we don't being in their tech 00:14:03.540 --> 00:14:07.960 services in our parks. 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:14.100 Especially on remote areas, whether it's a wildlife trail or DCTA trail, those areas 00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:20.020 of concerns, we can try to prop up something even that's just, "Hey, we have this remotely. 00:14:20.020 --> 00:14:25.000 We have five of these. We can deploy these in the matter of an hour and get those out 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.760 on the trail to try to help improve safety as we see challenges happening." 00:14:29.760 --> 00:14:40.000 Great. Thank you for that pause in the presentation. I think you're good to go. 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:47.040 Some existing concerns, obviously erosion, especially when we have gravel or dirt trails 00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:51.720 along creeks where we know those are in the flood plain. Those are areas that may want 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:55.240 to look at putting concrete so we could get a backhoe in there, get it cleaned out, and 00:14:55.240 --> 00:15:01.160 get it reopened fairly soon. Sometimes right-of-ways and easements may be needed to help improve 00:15:01.160 --> 00:15:06.360 that as well. Obviously, flooding is a challenge for us, and a lot of these trails will be 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:12.040 in the flood plain, and then lighting, as we talked about, to enhance safety. We currently 00:15:12.040 --> 00:15:16.920 have a number of solar-powered lights that we put out the dog park, and we're getting 00:15:16.920 --> 00:15:24.520 ready to put them in some other parks as some pilot projects to see how well they're working. 00:15:24.520 --> 00:15:29.720 Trail tread surface types, I've mentioned a little bit. Concrete is the most expensive. 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:34.120 It's obviously very permanent. We don't have to do a lot of maintenance on it other than 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:40.220 maybe some concrete heaving and various cracks. The soft trails, this one here is similar 00:15:40.220 --> 00:15:45.760 to what we did at the dog park. We put a concrete apron to keep the crushed granite in place. 00:15:45.760 --> 00:15:52.060 It does still move. We can put a sealant on the crushed granite to try to help that and 00:15:52.060 --> 00:15:58.000 reduce the movement on it. It's much more affordable. It's porous. It allows for water 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:02.420 to penetrate through it, but there is some maintenance to it, especially if you have 00:16:02.420 --> 00:16:09.640 any topography. Nature trails, again, if it's dirt or natural earth, if the natural earth 00:16:09.640 --> 00:16:14.800 is constructed well and it's compacted, you won't have as much movement. Obviously, if 00:16:14.800 --> 00:16:19.840 it just rains, it will be muddy and you may have potholes in various areas, but this is 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:26.160 very affordable. We could go in there and maybe have a master plan to have X trail would 00:16:26.160 --> 00:16:30.320 be concrete, but in order to get it started and get people out in the park right now, 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:38.720 we go in and put crushed granite or even millings left over from road work to allow people to 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:43.320 get in there sooner. And then elevated boardwalks are probably the most expensive, and these 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:49.640 are probably areas where we have a crossing or we have a lot of water that's in place 00:16:49.640 --> 00:16:56.640 and we just can't really get a permanent trail, for example, out of Clear Creek. Obviously, 00:16:56.640 --> 00:17:02.160 various types of signage, letting people know where restrooms are, where major intersections 00:17:02.160 --> 00:17:10.200 are, trail maps, businesses, how far your destination is to the next, to downtown, wherever 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:17.560 it may be, is critical in providing and improving safety measures as well. And then I'm going 00:17:17.560 --> 00:17:23.140 to go through some of the inventory we have. Some of these slides you can't visually see, 00:17:23.140 --> 00:17:29.440 but it was just to kind of give you a mindset and I can walk through the map here in a second. 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:35.440 So this is a list of our existing trails in regards to the surfaces, the length, whether 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:41.440 it's internal, it's along a creek or a linear park. So we have roughly 41 miles plus Clear 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:48.200 Creek. So that's constantly changing. We've been GPSing all of our trails, so we've been 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:53.160 modifying those numbers and trying to get really down to a strong number that we feel 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:58.700 really good about. Some projects in motion that have trails at North Lakes Dog Park I 00:17:58.700 --> 00:18:05.920 had mentioned, Mayhill is completed for the most part except for a last phase. Razor Ranch 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:10.600 is a future park that was built by a developer and will be turned over to the city. Along 00:18:10.600 --> 00:18:15.560 with the land, there's a loop trail along that property. Vintage and Bonnie Bray are 00:18:15.560 --> 00:18:21.680 under construction. Hickory Creek as well. McKenna Park is out to bid. As we speak, there'll 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:25.960 be an entire concrete loop trail going around the perimeter of that park as well as a new 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:36.280 parking lot. And we're master planning Southwest Bowling Green and Villages of Carmel. Overall, 00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:41.440 this is kind of mentioned at the very beginning, but the five core areas of trails, whether 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:47.320 they're creeks, internal park trails, side paths, paddling trails, and equestrian, total 00:18:47.320 --> 00:18:55.000 of 210 miles of new trails. Some of these trails may never happen just because of challenges 00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.880 and what forth that we don't know about at this point in time. Some of them are on private 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:05.960 property that we need to get easements or buy land long term. But this plan is to get 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:10.840 us in motion so we can start seeing what the opportunities are and then chipping away at 00:19:10.840 --> 00:19:16.980 it. Just because of a trail has 10 phases doesn't mean we're starting at phase one and 00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:22.480 ending at phase 10. Those could be going back and forth based off of road construction, 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:27.640 property opportunities, easement opportunities, funding in certain areas through our parkland 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:32.280 dedication and development ordinance. So there's a lot of factors that impact that. 00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:35.200 Hey, Gary, I think we have a question for Commissioner Smith. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:42.400 Thank you, Chair. Hey, Gary, how are you? How much of the park expansion and strategy 00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:49.440 is on private land or would need to have some private intervention with easements? 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:55.740 I don't have a hard number. The paddling trails are all on public. The side paths are all 00:19:55.740 --> 00:20:01.600 on right-of-ways. Some of those right-of-ways may need to be purchased for that road expansion. 00:20:01.600 --> 00:20:07.720 The internal parks obviously is on property that we currently own. Where we have the most 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:15.560 crossing of public and private is the creeks and drainage areas. So we're assuming we're 00:20:15.560 --> 00:20:20.240 following the creeks as much as possible. And I'll show you a couple of those here in 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:24.060 a second. It might give you a better idea. But I would say that would be the area that 00:20:24.060 --> 00:20:31.080 we would have the most challenge in regards to having the challenge of having to buy property 00:20:31.080 --> 00:20:35.440 or easements. Got it. And have you guys given any thought 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:43.120 or work into trying to connect in the already existing trail that is along the DCTRA? Yeah, 00:20:43.120 --> 00:20:48.160 whatever. The A train, trying to connect it into where that KD trail is to where it can 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:52.960 be much longer to one continuous loop that's more regional rather than just city style. 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.880 Yeah, so the goal there is to connect that to the downtown and then over to Mingo. And 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:04.040 then you can take Mingo all the way up to Clear Creek and then jump on the Texas Parks 00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:07.360 and Wildlife Trail, the green belt, and take that up to Lake Ray Roberts. 00:21:07.360 --> 00:21:10.800 Got it. Cool. Thanks. And then hopefully you can go all the way 00:21:10.800 --> 00:21:14.840 to Dallas. Yeah, hopefully. 00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:19.080 So internal park trails, you know, mountain bike, mountain bike park trail, which I'll 00:21:19.080 --> 00:21:24.360 talk about here in a second. McKenna, you know, completing some existing trails we have 00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:29.840 like Demia, just creating an entire loop around that parcel. Just some little amendments to 00:21:29.840 --> 00:21:35.640 Joe Skiles. So people who go out there and walk in a circle and be off the street. Unicorn 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:42.080 Lake, Briar Cliff, you know, more continuous loops. So not only do we have planned internal 00:21:42.080 --> 00:21:47.040 park loops, but we also have regional loops within the city that you might want to go 00:21:47.040 --> 00:21:53.120 on a four mile trail. You could take these trails and you may be on a side path in a 00:21:53.120 --> 00:21:58.560 park on a road, a combination of types of trails, but there will be different lengths 00:21:58.560 --> 00:22:05.480 planned that you could go on a different adventure, you know, every Saturday if you wanted to. 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:12.020 And then our creeks and drainage. We have these broken out into phases. They don't typically 00:22:12.020 --> 00:22:17.880 relate to what engineering might have for their roads. We put together phases just from 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:23.040 a manageable standpoint to get an idea where major barriers are, major cross streets, just 00:22:23.040 --> 00:22:27.160 to kind of give you an idea of from here to here, it's this month, just to help with our 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:31.960 planning. We did throw in some fiscal years based on what we know is in the works or what 00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:41.500 we anticipate being completed, whether it's Hickory Creek, Cooper Creek, Pecan Creek, 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:50.080 and Dena in those areas. And then some additional side paths, Mayhill, Bonnie Bray, Hickory 00:22:50.080 --> 00:22:54.920 Creek Road, Mingo Trail, which I just talked about, you know, even visioning a trail along 00:22:54.920 --> 00:23:00.920 the 288 loop, you know, some of that that's a long term vision, but we wanted to get it 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:04.960 out there so we could at least start having conversations as the city is is working on 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:09.680 all of our plans, whether it's updating the 2030 plan, our Parks Master Plan or working 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:17.040 with TxDOT. The paddling trail, obviously coming down from Lake Ray Roberts, following 00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:26.120 the green belt, we had one dam removed earlier this summer. There's another one at the confluence 00:23:26.120 --> 00:23:32.480 north of 380 that needs to be removed. So there's some infrastructure challenges there, 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:37.720 but we're pretty excited about the long term opportunity of creating more paddling adventures 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:44.880 for our community and then could be a launch destination. And this is, I had mentioned 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:51.480 earlier, whether you're coming down the Elm Fork and you're coming through and meandering 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:56.800 into the lake or you want to go from site to site and you want to follow the course 00:23:56.800 --> 00:24:02.420 and the outline of the lake itself, there's about 30 or so places where you could launch 00:24:02.420 --> 00:24:07.080 from right now. So the goal there is how can we work with all the cities on Lake Louisville 00:24:07.080 --> 00:24:14.720 to to create that type of opportunity and with the private businesses. And then equestrian 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:19.400 trail obviously is trying to find places where people could bring a trailer in and have horses 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:27.720 and cohabitate with general trail users. Trail connectors, this is what it is and this picture 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:32.280 in the background is trying to figure out how we could get under 35 where the railroad 00:24:32.280 --> 00:24:37.540 tracks are at Locust where we can use those types of opportunities to get from one point 00:24:37.540 --> 00:24:45.280 to another and get under or over top of major roadways. These blue dots are some of the major 00:24:45.280 --> 00:24:49.160 connectors that we've identified with TxDOT where we need to work with them where they're 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:55.640 doing some planning, whether it's expanding the highways or installing frontage roads 00:24:55.640 --> 00:25:00.960 to make sure that we have opportunities to have safe connections and crossways for people, 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:10.880 whether they're jogging or on a bike. Mountain, we've met with a couple times with our mountain 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:20.000 bike group within the city. We have a pretty strong group of enthusiasts. We've recently 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.880 agreed have a memorandum of understanding with our utilities department to use some 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:29.720 property that is not foreseen for what it was originally purchased for. And this is 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:35.320 out on Hartley Field. There was original plan for a wastewater treatment plan out there. 00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:39.880 I think they're gonna be putting a pump station there. So we have plans to put out a about 00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:45.680 a five to seven mile mountain bike trail out towards Clear Creek. So we're gonna be going 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.240 out in November trying to design that and get an idea of how much effort that would 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:56.880 be and then see if we can get volunteers to come out and help build that. Especially trails 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:02.120 whether it's a single track like we just mentioned or a pump track up here in the right corner 00:26:02.120 --> 00:26:07.840 that are fairly small but provide a lot of activity for various skill levels all the 00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:12.080 way to an ATV trail. We don't have anything planned for that but we have had people ask 00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:21.600 about four wheelers and motorcycles for off road activity. Taking our trails and really 00:26:21.600 --> 00:26:26.880 focusing on some educational opportunities. You know bringing the cemeteries really to 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:32.840 life and keeping the memory of those people in our cemeteries whether it's veterans of 00:26:32.840 --> 00:26:39.400 our wars or founders of our community or just you know any family member trying to get to 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:46.560 a point where we can preserve you know a biography of each person that you could go find online. 00:26:46.560 --> 00:26:53.160 It might be scannable with a QR code or it might even be censored with geofencing where 00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:58.960 you're walking in it and something pops up and say here's a revolutionary war veteran. 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:05.080 Here you can learn something about that person. And then you know taking the opportunity to 00:27:05.080 --> 00:27:13.440 memorialize again our military at Ernest Dallas Park, our history trail on DCTA, nature trails 00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.860 we can learn about trees and flowers and bugs and animals and then even the Denton Walk 00:27:17.860 --> 00:27:25.720 of Fame. And then 100 Cole Ranch I know there was a lot of work on this over the past year 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:31.520 or so. We have 50 plus miles of trails that are planned for that development whenever 00:27:31.520 --> 00:27:38.140 that happens. So that's something we'll be working on when time allows us as that development 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:46.800 continues to move forward. Funding is going to be the big opportunity for us to find funding 00:27:46.800 --> 00:27:52.600 so we can build this you know quicker. Whether it's Texas Parks and Wildlife, North Texas 00:27:52.600 --> 00:27:58.600 Cog, Council of Governments, or it's just general fund appropriation or bond program. 00:27:58.600 --> 00:28:04.680 How can we use our money to expand that with grants to really allow us to get more projects 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:13.960 done quicker. And then partnerships we can't do this without you. So whether it's a residence, 00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:21.760 volunteers helping on the trail, local governments, DISD, Denton County, universities, students, 00:28:21.760 --> 00:28:27.880 funding opportunities, Cog I had mentioned, local interest groups, Dorba or maybe a future 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:34.600 Little Dorba for you know Denton County, homeowners and associations, private businesses, bike 00:28:34.600 --> 00:28:39.920 shops have been very influential so far and very supportive. Texas Parks and Wildlife, 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:48.240 Army Corps of Engineers and so on. So that's the PowerPoint in a nutshell. You know Dr. 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:53.520 Walker, he's on the phone. He's done a lot of this work and he's the one that really 00:28:53.520 --> 00:28:58.520 should be doing the presentation because this is really thanks to him and all the effort 00:28:58.520 --> 00:29:02.960 he's done for us. And then Drew obviously and staff have put a lot of work into this 00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:10.520 as well trying to set a vision for Denton for the next 25 plus years. So I'm open for 00:29:10.520 --> 00:29:15.040 any questions. I can bring the GIS map up and kind of walk you through a couple trails 00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:23.160 as well at your convenience. Commissioner Beck. Thank you Chair. Hey Gary we briefly 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:31.880 touched on this at one of the public meetings but we have one of our major goals is to connect 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:39.740 various elements of Denton with the lakes and say downtown for instance and that seems 00:29:39.740 --> 00:29:44.560 to be up and down Mingo but you know the entire time I've lived here we've been trying to 00:29:44.560 --> 00:29:51.280 do that. It seems like the oh I forget the commission that's in charge of railroads. 00:29:51.280 --> 00:29:56.800 It's obviously not the railroad commission because this is Texas. Whoever it is that 00:29:56.800 --> 00:30:04.920 is in charge of railroads there was some bottleneck. Do we have any light at the end of this tunnel 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:11.640 in terms of getting easements on that railway easement right away? At this point in time 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:16.760 we haven't specifically worked on Mingo. You know we'll be working with engineering whenever 00:30:16.760 --> 00:30:24.040 that road is expanded and we might have to go I guess it'd be north west to that side 00:30:24.040 --> 00:30:28.680 of the road. Obviously when you're driving down Mingo it looks like there's more than 00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:35.880 enough room to put a 10-foot trail in there between the road and the railroad itself. 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.520 So that's something that we're going to you know if we get the master plan approved continue 00:30:39.520 --> 00:30:43.840 working with our engineering group and as the roads are expanded I don't know where 00:30:43.840 --> 00:30:48.960 Mingo sits right now in regards to the priorities with everything else going on. I know we've 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:54.420 had communications with TWU about some of the plans they're doing and trying to plan 00:30:54.420 --> 00:30:59.720 for that as well on Mingo. Getting all the way out to Clear Creek it could maybe just 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:05.340 go to loop 288 and then everything would be on street from that point in time just because 00:31:05.340 --> 00:31:10.800 of the traffic load is a little bit less when you get out there but you know I see that 00:31:10.800 --> 00:31:16.940 as a major connection from Dallas to Lake Ray Roberts and for those people that want 00:31:16.940 --> 00:31:23.600 to drive along take a long bike ride or the like marathon bikers that's a major opportunity 00:31:23.600 --> 00:31:29.560 for us. I think there's a lot of will from many stakeholders and debt for that to happen 00:31:29.560 --> 00:31:35.520 but I guess my question was more to is this aspirational at this point or we actually 00:31:35.520 --> 00:31:42.920 have partners in. Somebody tell me who the commission is that oversees railroads. 00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:48.840 This is aspirational obviously we need to aspire to set goals and put our flag in the 00:31:48.840 --> 00:31:53.840 ground and say this is what we want to work to and start chipping away at it. In our minds 00:31:53.840 --> 00:31:58.740 if we don't get it on paper and get people to start getting excited about it we're never 00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:04.240 going to get there. So here's the vision how do you want to get there and do you accept 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.520 this and then here's the challenge we need to figure out how to fund it we need to figure 00:32:07.520 --> 00:32:12.440 out how to make it work and start working through those. That's why you know we definitely 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:16.440 need to make sure that people understand that this isn't a five-year plan. This is you know 00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:20.480 25-40 years and some of these things may never happen just because of the very issue that 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:27.560 you mentioned but I think there's opportunities for some low-hanging fruit and then there's 00:32:27.560 --> 00:32:30.640 some ones that are at the top of the tree that are going to be a little more challenging 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:35.960 to figure out how to get to the fruit. All right thanks so much. Thank you. Gary real 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:42.120 quick can you hear me? Yes sir. On in the case of Mingo just from all the different 00:32:42.120 --> 00:32:47.200 this is Dr. Walker by the way on all the different cities and even in different states where 00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:53.200 I've worked on these types of projects the long-term potential for safety for Mingo as 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:57.400 well so if you approach it from the railroad's perspective the last thing they want is a 00:32:57.400 --> 00:33:04.200 trail by that train where a child could end up getting killed by a train so the highest 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:09.160 likelihood would be to expand the road closer to the railroad track you're more likely to 00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:14.040 survive an interaction in a car than on foot and the side path would be on the opposite 00:33:14.040 --> 00:33:19.120 side of that road away from the railroad so yes there's a great open space where you could 00:33:19.120 --> 00:33:23.280 fit a trail but it also puts people closer to the track and that's the last thing the 00:33:23.280 --> 00:33:27.420 railroad's ever want to do. Again just due to safety in the history of that it's never 00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:33.800 worked out well so when Mingo gets redone it's highly likely that you would expand Mingo 00:33:33.800 --> 00:33:39.000 towards the actual drivable section towards the track and then take the other side to 00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:45.720 put in your 10 foot side path away from as far away from the train as possible basically. 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:51.960 Same issue with 377 if we want to try to connect Denton all the way down to Argyle and Roanoke 00:33:51.960 --> 00:34:02.640 and all points south the same situation down there as we have in Mingo as well. If you'd 00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:06.280 like I could just send a quick two or three minutes and walk through the map just to kind 00:34:06.280 --> 00:34:13.840 of give you a sense of the map and the trails. Sounds good. Okay. Hey Gary while you're opening 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:19.000 that up this is Drew I know this committee probably more than any others really realize 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:24.000 how fast Denton's growing. In our side of the house over in operations and planning 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.520 we go through each and every single development and especially on the residential side we're 00:34:29.520 --> 00:34:35.120 working really hard to get as much property as we can along those floodplain zones for 00:34:35.120 --> 00:34:43.160 free. So really in just the last two weeks we secured almost almost 120 acres from either 00:34:43.160 --> 00:34:49.400 an internal department or a developer coming into the city of Denton and that's along the 00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:54.440 Hickory Creek over in the new where the new body break bridge is going in. So I just kind 00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:58.360 of wanted to point that out that you know this is our goal and we're really working 00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:03.680 towards it and we're really looking at every little bit and little bite we can take out 00:35:03.680 --> 00:35:08.640 of this plan and make this thing happen and you know make our dreams come true with this 00:35:08.640 --> 00:35:16.440 master 12 plan. So I just wanted to make that point let you know. So this is our GIS map 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:22.440 and we're working to get this online so the community can see it. They obviously the outline 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:26.920 of the city the blue bubbles that you see are the 10 minute walk. I think we came and 00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:32.360 talked to you maybe a year or so ago about that and our goal is to get green space within 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:39.520 a half mile or a 10 minute walk of every resident and keep up with that growth. This is this 00:35:39.520 --> 00:35:43.960 is a hundred coal ranch you can see all these green dots here these are neighborhood parks 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:50.880 city parks pilot knob which we have a conservation easement with hunter ranch on that one eventually 00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:55.440 we'll have just about 100 percent connectivity there whenever that's built. So that will 00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:01.880 kind of take care of itself but what we need to do is find property in these other areas 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:09.560 that that have houses obviously you know in the core of our city a lot of this is university 00:36:09.560 --> 00:36:12.600 but to get make sure we have green space there and that doesn't mean we have to be the owner 00:36:12.600 --> 00:36:16.600 of it that means we need to have make sure that we have public access to it so that may 00:36:16.600 --> 00:36:21.960 entail some joint use agreements with the various entities it could be a church could 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:28.760 be a university but our goal is to increase that 10 minute walk but ultimately these lines 00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:34.600 of various colors are the different trails so for instance this pink line let me let 00:36:34.600 --> 00:36:48.360 me turn off our 10 minute walk here so it's just a little clear. Okay so this pink line 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:53.680 right here is our DCTA trail and that goes all the way down into Corinth that we still 00:36:53.680 --> 00:36:59.440 maintain even outside of the city limits as you can see that trail comes up here and then 00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:03.720 mingo starts here and mingo would go all the way out to clear creek and then we have to 00:37:03.720 --> 00:37:13.160 get across the creek and take the green belt north. Starting up here obviously we have 00:37:13.160 --> 00:37:19.300 miles within clear creek the idea is to have a trail along clear creek itself that would 00:37:19.300 --> 00:37:26.440 go from clear creek west along at least to Sherman if not past Sherman at some point 00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:32.320 in time that would get into the ETJ into other cities so that's a long-term connection opportunity 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:38.520 and then the development that may happen up on the the Carter property up in the northeast 00:37:38.520 --> 00:37:43.280 we looked at putting a possible a linear trail in there along the floodplain that would connect 00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:47.200 that neighborhood this is the mountain bike proposed mountain bike location that we were 00:37:47.200 --> 00:37:53.960 talking about cooper creek obviously it starts right now basically at north lakes and goes 00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:59.240 north up to north point park and then it starts heading east through some city property through 00:37:59.240 --> 00:38:04.620 city parks and then through some linear parks there are some challenges where it gets narrowed 00:38:04.620 --> 00:38:09.320 that we might have to go on road so those are obviously quick wins where we can go on 00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:14.440 road or we have an existing on road path and taking that all the way to the lake this section 00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:18.460 here is where there's a lot of private property that we'd have to work through so whether 00:38:18.460 --> 00:38:24.840 or not this happens is still would be up in the air pecan creek specifically starting 00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:30.080 at fred moore park or the katie trail and here it's for the most part it's government 00:38:30.080 --> 00:38:37.180 property it's you know whether it's city dedicated parkland or city land or county land there's 00:38:37.180 --> 00:38:43.240 one development that's kind of in the middle here that we've had discussions to put about 00:38:43.240 --> 00:38:48.720 five miles of trails in there if that development would move forward so that's obviously still 00:38:48.720 --> 00:38:54.360 up in the air and there's still a lot of opportunities for that to move forward or have challenges 00:38:54.360 --> 00:38:58.700 but then we get into the landfill and we're on the north side or the east side of pecan 00:38:58.700 --> 00:39:03.600 creek that's underutilized right now that would get us the army corps property into 00:39:03.600 --> 00:39:08.700 the lake so this one is probably the easiest linear trail for us to do just because it's 00:39:08.700 --> 00:39:17.240 primarily government property hickory creek starting down basically at old alton bridge 00:39:17.240 --> 00:39:21.680 you can go a little bit southeast of old alton bridge but then there's a significant amount 00:39:21.680 --> 00:39:26.540 of army corps property there's some city parks there is some private property through this 00:39:26.540 --> 00:39:30.720 that we have to work but there's also a lot of opportunity to go on road and then back 00:39:30.720 --> 00:39:36.760 off road so we can work around some of those private property issues if it was for the 00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:40.720 short term and then long term you know maybe there's an option to purchase at some point 00:39:40.720 --> 00:39:47.240 in time that could take us all the way up and connect with university trail and then 00:39:47.240 --> 00:39:52.720 hickory creek has a few kind of spurs off of it as well and then you have hickory creek 00:39:52.720 --> 00:39:58.720 road that'll eventually turn into brush creek and go over to 35 and connect over to hunter 00:39:58.720 --> 00:40:06.200 coal so there's a trail plan for along there vintage is already under construction here 00:40:06.200 --> 00:40:11.200 and then bonnie bray would be another major crossroads there that would eventually go 00:40:11.200 --> 00:40:19.640 all the way up to 77 and potentially go under 288 loop so that just gives you a snapshot 00:40:19.640 --> 00:40:28.080 again a lot of visioning here and a lot of things have to happen to move forward partnerships 00:40:28.080 --> 00:40:35.200 funding obviously construction you know purchasing of land all those things have to happen for 00:40:35.200 --> 00:40:40.720 some of these to fall into place for sure but our thought was to get it on paper get 00:40:40.720 --> 00:40:46.400 everyone's vision going in the same direction and then put it put it into a plan and then 00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:53.120 start moving forward and figure out how we can chip away at it so that that's it that's 00:40:53.120 --> 00:40:59.280 the the trails chapter in a nutshell there's a lot of information there for just a chapter 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:03.980 thank you to dr walker and staff for all they work all the work they've done obviously we're 00:41:03.980 --> 00:41:09.600 not done yet we're still looking for feedback if you have ideas or thoughts today or you 00:41:09.600 --> 00:41:14.720 want to share something down the road please feel free to reach out to us we're always 00:41:14.720 --> 00:41:22.520 up for ideas and this is a very dynamic opportunity with a lot of challenges but then i think 00:41:22.520 --> 00:41:26.400 we're at a great point to try to make it work too obviously the best time to do this would 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:31.160 have been 20 years ago but the second best time is today so that's kind of where we're 00:41:31.160 --> 00:41:38.600 at as part of our parks and recreation and trail system master plan i certainly appreciate 00:41:38.600 --> 00:41:43.480 it gary for the presentation is there any questions before we go to our next agenda 00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:54.000 item i do not see any again thank you very much thank you before we go into our next 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:58.840 work session report i just wanted to let the record show that commissioner anderson has 00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:06.240 joined us happy to have you here uh and then we can move on to item 2b and this is to receive 00:42:06.240 --> 00:42:10.200 a report regarding outcomes of city council work session regarding plugged gas well issues 00:42:10.200 --> 00:42:18.640 etc listed on the agenda richard who is presenting this item this evening this will be hayley 00:42:18.640 --> 00:42:40.240 oh fantastic thanks gary she's getting ready now 00:42:40.240 --> 00:42:47.120 hayley whenever you're ready the floor is yours all right all right good afternoon everyone 00:42:47.120 --> 00:42:51.680 so this is just an update to let you all know about a discussion we had regarding plugged 00:42:51.680 --> 00:42:57.660 wells with city council yesterday during their work session so i'll just run through this 00:42:57.660 --> 00:43:02.360 briefly and you all feel free to to jump in if you have any questions or i'll try to remember 00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:07.120 and take some pauses so that we can address things as we go along so just a little background 00:43:07.120 --> 00:43:11.800 on what what led to this there were two separate council member requests for work sessions 00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:17.040 regarding plugged gas wells the first was regarding risk and public protections and 00:43:17.040 --> 00:43:21.180 the second was regarding what sort of incentives we could could possibly introduce into the 00:43:21.180 --> 00:43:28.120 code to encourage the plugging of wells so to start off with this is kind of the status 00:43:28.120 --> 00:43:33.920 of where we're at today within the city we have 38 plugged gas wells and 22 in our etj 00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:39.060 there are some limited code requirements related to gas well plugging primarily relates to 00:43:39.060 --> 00:43:44.320 inspections so we do require that an operator give staff notice of when they intend to plug 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:50.100 a well our inspectors are then able to go out and monitor that that process as it occurs 00:43:50.100 --> 00:43:54.900 we require the location of the well be provided if we don't already have it on file as well 00:43:54.900 --> 00:43:59.640 as requiring that they follow all railroad commission requirements and provide us copies 00:43:59.640 --> 00:44:03.080 of those plugging reports for our record so that we know the wells were plugged in accordance 00:44:03.080 --> 00:44:09.920 with state standards so again back to those initial requests this is broken down into 00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:15.680 three topics so we'll cover risk and then public protections and then the incentives 00:44:15.680 --> 00:44:20.800 with regard to risk staff both in environmental services and within planning did some research 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.960 into this topic preparing for the work session and we found that there were kind of three 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:29.720 primary categories where risk could occur the first being with orphaned wells and then 00:44:29.720 --> 00:44:34.000 with groundwater contamination and air emissions and we'll look at each of these briefly in 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:40.000 turn so with regard to orphaned wells this is it's a term that the railroad commission 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.960 uses essentially for when an operator has has left a well in place but they have not 00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:48.200 plugged it so the wells considered orphaned and abandoned at that point but is not properly 00:44:48.200 --> 00:44:53.640 plugged so there there could still be some activity occurring there the railroad condition 00:44:53.640 --> 00:44:59.120 or railroad commission maintains the database of all gas well locations across the state 00:44:59.120 --> 00:45:03.640 this includes those orphaned and abandoned wells as well as active gas wells and within 00:45:03.640 --> 00:45:07.760 the city of denton the city maintains a similar database so our gis team updates this every 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.320 time our inspectors tell us that a well has been plugged so just looking at the map here 00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:17.000 if you go to the city interactive map and turn on the gas well layer that you see here 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.000 you'll see that plugged wells show up as kind of a darker red diamond whereas active wells 00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:25.400 are shown with the brighter red circle and there's a drop down menu on the side where 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:29.400 you can can see the legend for what all of these symbols mean but this is just one of 00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:34.840 the tools that we offer to inform the public of of where these wells are located as well 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:40.100 as developers when they come in to to develop a property it's important to note that according 00:45:40.100 --> 00:45:43.640 to the railroad commission although we have many plugged wells within the city there are 00:45:43.640 --> 00:45:48.000 no orphaned wells within the city of denton and the state does maintain a program where 00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:52.160 they they set aside money to to go in and plug these orphan wells over time to ensure 00:45:52.160 --> 00:46:00.260 that they do eventually get plugged and in accordance with the standards looking at groundwater 00:46:00.260 --> 00:46:04.760 contamination i think it's important to to look briefly at the plugging process itself 00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:10.200 which is designed to prevent this exact concern so this is something that the railroad commission 00:46:10.200 --> 00:46:15.040 regulates the city is preempted from from regulating this process at all it is a below 00:46:15.040 --> 00:46:19.640 ground process in the city under house bill 40 only has regulatory authority for things 00:46:19.640 --> 00:46:26.160 that occur above the ground this graphic here it may be hard to see but this is from a document 00:46:26.160 --> 00:46:30.760 that the railroad commission puts out that summarizes the plugging process essentially 00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:35.440 it's a series of cement plugs put into the ground so where there is a groundwater strata 00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:40.440 there's a hundred foot plug that's required that is set to start 50 feet below the the 00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:44.280 start of that water and 50 feet above it so that there's a hundred foot of total depth 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:51.400 of cement preventing gas or oil in some instances we don't have much of that in denton from 00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:55.880 intruding into the groundwater layers these standards have been in place for many decades 00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:00.520 it's the same standards that the state uses when they go and plug wells this is what developers 00:47:00.520 --> 00:47:05.720 are required to follow and they file a plugging report that shows the depth and the the top 00:47:05.720 --> 00:47:14.100 and bottom of each one of these concrete strata as they set them so again collaborated with 00:47:14.100 --> 00:47:18.120 environmental services on this work session and we did some research into what studies 00:47:18.120 --> 00:47:24.600 have been done oh i see a question there from commissioner beck yeah commissioner beck i 00:47:24.600 --> 00:47:27.800 wanted to stand thank you thank you chair thank you haley i want to stay on that slide 00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:37.080 just for a second um so um i i was uh at a meeting at ut austin um just recently where 00:47:37.080 --> 00:47:45.400 they were doing simulations of exactly this exact thing um uh and the 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:51.520 this is this the the it's germane because uh they were finding that these plugs degrade 00:47:51.520 --> 00:47:56.480 under conditions of micro fractures which we've been having throughout texas and oklahoma 00:47:56.480 --> 00:48:03.440 due to the fracking and where the plugs are not stable so my question is um four plugged 00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:07.240 wells and if you're going to come to it just tell me you're going to come to it but what 00:48:07.240 --> 00:48:14.120 is our inspection process to make sure that these kinds of plugs stay plugged and do their 00:48:14.120 --> 00:48:20.760 job um so the city's inspection process um again we're we basically don't have authority 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:24.840 to regulate anything that occurs below the ground um so the best we can do with the plugging 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:29.760 process is ask that they provide us documentation that they've met the state standards that's 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:34.500 the plugging report that i referenced that shows um again it just documents what the 00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:39.280 cementer on site has done where they've put the top and bottom of each of these what type 00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:43.160 of concrete mixture they use that sort of information is on there um so we obtain a 00:48:43.160 --> 00:48:47.440 copy of that form and our inspectors um go on site throughout the plugging process to 00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:52.280 make sure that that everything seems to be going um as planned they you know they check 00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:56.320 in with the railroad commission who also monitors the process and then they make sure that all 00:48:56.320 --> 00:49:01.200 the equipment's removed from the site um they do a survey to ensure that all radioactive 00:49:01.200 --> 00:49:05.360 uh containing materials are removed from the site and that sort of thing but but we are 00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:10.360 very limited as a city into as to what we can regulate with respect to this process 00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:15.760 um so mostly what they look for is the above ground cleanup of the site so for a real quick 00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:24.280 follow-up um does either do either we or the state or the county periodically monitor to 00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:30.880 to make sure that these are stable that i'm not sure of it would be a state um a railroad 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:35.560 commission uh program if there was one i'm not aware of one but that's not to say that 00:49:35.560 --> 00:49:39.240 one doesn't exist but it would be through the railroad commission if it did okay thank 00:49:39.240 --> 00:49:48.360 you all right so uh this was kind of the the the key study that we found that that informed 00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:53.560 this topic um specific to texas with related uh relationship to groundwater contamination 00:49:53.560 --> 00:50:00.000 um this was a study done in 2011 it looked at a 16 year period with data uh from uh groundwater 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:06.040 contamination incidents across the state they've they found 211 incidents of contamination 00:50:06.040 --> 00:50:11.280 um during that time the study reported that there were over 250 000 producing wells during 00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:16.120 that 16 year time frame during that time 140 000 wells were plugged and would have fallen 00:50:16.120 --> 00:50:20.960 into uh into the incidents that they were looking at what they found was only one of 00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:26.840 the 211 uh was a contamination incident related to plugging um they did find their largest 00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:32.720 sources were from waste management and production phase releases of materials on site um 30 00:50:32.720 --> 00:50:36.240 were from orphaned wells which again are those wells that have not yet been plugged but have 00:50:36.240 --> 00:50:42.000 been abandoned in place so this was the only example we found specific to texas that documented 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:48.600 um how how often groundwater contamination is an issue and then moving on the the final 00:50:48.600 --> 00:50:53.000 risk topic that we explored for this uh was with regard to air emissions um again we did 00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:58.080 that that sweep to look for any studies that might inform uh this issue specific to texas 00:50:58.080 --> 00:51:02.680 and did not find any um that's not to say there aren't any but we did not come across 00:51:02.680 --> 00:51:07.840 them um the primary air emission that we found information related to was of course methane 00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:13.000 since these are natural gas wells and the most informative um again with respect to 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:17.720 to how often is this a concern uh was one from 2016 that looked at four different oil 00:51:17.720 --> 00:51:23.160 and gas basins across the united states um that particular study surveyed uh wells that 00:51:23.160 --> 00:51:27.720 were on public property they found 119 plugged wells and 19 abandoned wells that they could 00:51:27.720 --> 00:51:32.320 go out and monitor for methane emissions and they found that one out of the 119 plugged 00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:36.560 wells was a positive source it was a very very low amount of methane that was emitting 00:51:36.560 --> 00:51:41.080 from that well that one was positive whereas eight of the 19 abandoned wells were positive 00:51:41.080 --> 00:51:48.800 sources for methane and then um unless there are any questions on any of that material 00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:54.920 we'll go on to the next piece i don't see any hayley all right um so the second topic 00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:58.880 that council asked us to look into were public protections um so looking at this from the 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:03.300 perspective of what could the city do to raise awareness and inform people about this topic 00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:07.840 and ensure that people are protected um we found the primary tools that are used are 00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:12.960 within respect to inspections uh setbacks or easements required around plugged wells 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:17.920 and then surface mark marking of the well locations um so again as i as i mentioned 00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:22.640 earlier just briefly um the city does have an inspection program that covers both active 00:52:22.640 --> 00:52:27.320 and plugged wells um the once the inspectors are informed of a plugging operation they go 00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:32.400 out and monitor the process and we do require copies of those railroad commission reports 00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:36.400 be submitted back to us so that we can close out the well log in our system and have a 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:41.560 record that uh that state standards were followed daily spot checks are done during the plugging 00:52:41.560 --> 00:52:46.280 process and our inspectors closely monitor the restoration of the site the state has 00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:50.720 requirements for this uh but typically our inspector will will coordinate with the property 00:52:50.720 --> 00:52:55.360 owner of the the surface property and ensure that uh that their standards and the operator's 00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:59.480 standards are on par and that we're monitoring to make sure the site gets back to a condition 00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:04.120 that is amenable to them um oftentimes a property owner will ask that the gravel be left in 00:53:04.120 --> 00:53:08.420 place for example so that they can go do something else with that area of their property once 00:53:08.420 --> 00:53:12.840 the well is gone um and then of course our inspectors do that survey to ensure that any 00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:16.800 equipment that contain naturally occurring radioactive material has been removed from 00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:22.080 the site before we close out uh that that well record and then we'll look at setbacks 00:53:22.080 --> 00:53:28.520 and well marking a little more closely so uh as part of this uh preparation for this 00:53:28.520 --> 00:53:34.320 i i did survey area dfw cities that have gas well ordinances um i looked at 42 other cities 00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:39.640 around the the metroplex um and kind of what their standards were and how denton compares 00:53:39.640 --> 00:53:44.040 to that um so one thing that we touched on yesterday with council was that um up until 00:53:44.040 --> 00:53:48.960 our most recent overhaul of the gas well ordinance we had just kind of a standard statement in 00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:53.120 our ordinance that said that no structure could be built over and abandoned well um 00:53:53.120 --> 00:53:57.760 i believe that was kind of inadvertently left out when the overhaul was done in 2015 and 00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:01.540 hasn't been added back to the code since um and that is something that council advised 00:54:01.540 --> 00:54:06.840 us that they would like to see put back into the code um so again looking at how we compare 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:12.120 to other cities 34 of the 42 that i looked at did have a requirement stated almost exactly 00:54:12.120 --> 00:54:16.920 like this that simply said no structure can be built over and abandoned well nine of them 00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:22.320 did not have a requirement for that uh seven of the cities did actually require a a fairly 00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:27.000 small setback around a well the most common was a five foot radius so a 10 foot total 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:32.820 uh circle around the plug wellhead other common or um other numbers that i saw again there 00:54:32.820 --> 00:54:38.360 were only seven of them so so very few but uh 10 and 20 feet were also utilized um and 00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:42.840 then several of the cities uh 10 out of the 42 had a requirement that there be a physical 00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:47.680 marker placed on top of the ground um and that and i'll i believe in all of the instances 00:54:47.680 --> 00:54:54.200 was a pipe that was four inches in diameter was stamped with the well id and the gps location 00:54:54.200 --> 00:54:59.960 of the well and was set at a height of four feet above the ground commissioner beck do 00:54:59.960 --> 00:55:06.200 you have a question yeah christopher beck thank you chair uh these these were the the 00:55:06.200 --> 00:55:11.920 north texas uh comparables essentially is what we're talking about correct yeah the 00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:17.240 specific cities you see here kind of are are more more close to denton uh comparable cities 00:55:17.240 --> 00:55:21.760 the search i did included you know south of dallas um and and kind of all over the metroplex 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:27.120 but these were the closest to denton and and did you happen to look uh sort of more nationwide 00:55:27.120 --> 00:55:33.560 at pennsylvania colorado some of the other gas producing states at what their general 00:55:33.560 --> 00:55:40.680 uh characteristics were so i i did look fairly generally across uh the country uh colorado 00:55:40.680 --> 00:55:44.960 does i don't recall the numbers off the top of my head they do have fairly robust requirements 00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:50.240 um i believe in the realm of more than 100 feet uh from a plugged well pennsylvania i 00:55:50.240 --> 00:55:55.200 don't recall but i believe they also had a similar uh setback again those being very 00:55:55.200 --> 00:56:02.000 different formations um that that you'd be producing from uh than the barnett shale um 00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:05.480 but for this year we tried to stay local to dfw and look at things that would be a comparable 00:56:05.480 --> 00:56:13.360 formation to us okay thank you so much 00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:17.540 and then uh the the final topic we covered with council was with respect to incentives 00:56:17.540 --> 00:56:22.040 so council had asked us to look into what types of zoning or land use incentives could 00:56:22.040 --> 00:56:26.980 be could be put into place to encourage developers to plug wells as they look to develop properties 00:56:26.980 --> 00:56:33.160 um so i wanted to start with kind of showing where where we're at today so when there's 00:56:33.160 --> 00:56:38.600 a gas well site as you're familiar with we now have a 500 foot reverse setback what you 00:56:38.600 --> 00:56:43.760 see here is an example of a site on wenser so the pad sites outlined in purple the the 00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:50.000 blue line here shows that 500 foot um reverse setback radius so if we were looking at the 00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:55.280 site adjacent to the gas well that's approximately 10 acres um within the 500 foot reverse setback 00:56:55.280 --> 00:57:00.760 9.35 acres of that site would be encumbered so for protected use uh were to develop here 00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:04.200 they would have that to contend with and have very limited area that they could develop 00:57:04.200 --> 00:57:10.040 um as you're familiar with from the recent updates we did provide for a process for them 00:57:10.040 --> 00:57:14.400 to go to zba and seek a variance that could take that back to 250 which is our minimum 00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:19.120 reverse setback and that's what's shown in red however once the once these wells are 00:57:19.120 --> 00:57:24.080 plugged and this site is remediated and according to state standards those setbacks go away 00:57:24.080 --> 00:57:30.160 so what's shown here is just a hypothetical if we were to introduce a 20 foot radius on 00:57:30.160 --> 00:57:35.800 either side of a plugged well which is a number that we got from a couple of recent um muds 00:57:35.800 --> 00:57:40.280 that have gone to city council um that had plugged wells they they voluntarily established 00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:44.920 a 20 foot radius around those for nothing to be built uh that that kind of tan circle 00:57:44.920 --> 00:57:49.000 that you see around the red wellhead is what that would look like so so this site in this 00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:54.800 example would regain the use of almost their entire property um if these wells were plugged 00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:58.620 so that's just an example of kind of the inherent value of plugging the gas wells is that all 00:57:58.620 --> 00:58:03.820 of that land then becomes available for development with protected uses even if we were to establish 00:58:03.820 --> 00:58:07.600 that no build easement comparable to what we've seen in other cities even going on the 00:58:07.600 --> 00:58:14.800 upper end at 20 feet it would still be a significant increase in the amount of land available 00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:17.840 some of the other things that we discussed with council again we're just a summary of 00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:21.640 some of the flexibility tools we have in the code today these are things that that anyone 00:58:21.640 --> 00:58:26.080 could use that we could either um you know they they could apply in scenarios where a 00:58:26.080 --> 00:58:30.440 well is plugged or we could look at expanding these if there's interest in that so the minor 00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:35.320 modification is kind of for those dimensional standards um as a first step instead of going 00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:39.800 to directly to zba to get a variance from some of these uh setback standards or building 00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:44.400 coverage we have the minor modification where you could request up to a 10 reduction in 00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:49.680 those criteria which for a setback is often no more than one foot um and that could be 00:58:49.680 --> 00:58:53.200 approved administratively so this is a tool that we already have that we could potentially 00:58:53.200 --> 00:58:59.920 expand um if if the council directed us to for plugged wells cluster subdivisions is 00:58:59.920 --> 00:59:05.440 another flexibility tool built into the code already um it the way it's written it is specifically 00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:09.960 geared to areas where they're preserving open space um particularly environmentally sensitive 00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:15.400 areas it does require 30 percent of the land area be set aside for open space um so this 00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:20.160 is something that could um already be applied in this scenario but we could certainly look 00:59:20.160 --> 00:59:25.160 at clarifying the language and the intent statement for that to specify that that this isn't something 00:59:25.160 --> 00:59:29.900 we encourage if you plug a gas well is to pursue this option where you leave more open 00:59:29.900 --> 00:59:34.600 space available for community use but you can in return reduce the minimum lot size 00:59:34.600 --> 00:59:40.760 for residential development some of the other tools we offer sub chapter seven if you look 00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:45.600 through the code covers landscaping and site design as well as parking is another crucial 00:59:45.600 --> 00:59:50.840 element of that so for multi-family and non-residential protected uses this would be where a lot of 00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:55.240 the flexibility would be found in the code today for example we have alternative landscape 00:59:55.240 --> 01:00:00.520 plans that can be pursued if the um the specific requirements for where we require landscaping 01:00:00.520 --> 01:00:06.200 and how much landscaping um is is infeasible for a site they can pursue that option we 01:00:06.200 --> 01:00:10.560 also do have some parking flexibility baked in again for the multi-family and non-residential 01:00:10.560 --> 01:00:14.820 primarily so those tools would be available today and we could certainly look at expanding 01:00:14.820 --> 01:00:19.560 any of those if there was interest in it and then the final element i wanted to touch on 01:00:19.560 --> 01:00:24.400 is just an example of how we've already created a toolkit such as this with that administrative 01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:29.920 waiver that was introduced when the setback was increased from 250 feet to 500 feet so 01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:34.320 this is again something we could model after for plugged wells to create kind of a gas 01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:40.360 well unique flexibility toolkit commissioner beck do you have a question yes thank you 01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:47.320 chair hailey i'm i'm unclear um can uh do the existing standards or any of the proposed 01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:55.320 standards um allow parking lot to be put over we have that sort of we we lost that that 01:00:55.320 --> 01:01:00.680 that provision in our current ordinance but were we putting previously were we putting 01:01:00.680 --> 01:01:06.560 parking lots on top of uh plugged gas wells so the way the the code was worded previously 01:01:06.560 --> 01:01:10.660 it just said no structure could be built over a well the ddc typically defines a structure 01:01:10.660 --> 01:01:14.960 i believe our previous codes did as well um that essentially it's vertical improvement 01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:20.600 so so something such as paving typically isn't considered a structure a fence or an accessory 01:01:20.600 --> 01:01:25.120 building or something like that would be a structure so i don't know of any specifically 01:01:25.120 --> 01:01:31.200 but in theory there could be a parking lot over a gas well for example um once it's plugged 01:01:31.200 --> 01:01:35.720 um we do try to encourage as much as possible that those plugged wells be located if it's 01:01:35.720 --> 01:01:40.480 a residential development within an hoa lot um but currently we have no standard to say 01:01:40.480 --> 01:01:45.320 that that you have to make sure the plug well is any certain location or that there's nothing 01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:53.840 over it so anything we add to the code would be improving that situation okay thank you 01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:58.960 and then we did explore some new options with council um you know in lieu of expanding the 01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:04.040 existing options in the code we could look at instead of adding density back as council 01:02:04.040 --> 01:02:11.360 initially was interested in since we don't strictly require density limitations on development 01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:16.280 we monitor based on lot size so the way we could could accomplish that is by allowing 01:02:16.280 --> 01:02:20.200 a certain percentage of the land area within a residential development to you to have smaller 01:02:20.200 --> 01:02:24.960 lot sizes so similar to clustering but but kind of tailoring that to these areas and 01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:28.840 just allowing a certain amount of that within a development and we'll look at an example 01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:33.160 of that in just a second some of the other things that came up that we don't have in 01:02:33.160 --> 01:02:37.280 the code today that we could look at adding would be parking reductions for for the lower 01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:42.620 intensity residential uses single-family duplex and townhome for example we require four spaces 01:02:42.620 --> 01:02:47.640 per unit that is that is higher than a lot of cities in the area that only require two 01:02:47.640 --> 01:02:53.440 which is was our standard up until about two years ago um and then also for residential 01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:58.800 development some things that we we thought might be considered would be for example adding 01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:03.600 a requirement that the well be within an open space or allowing reductions to the minimum 01:03:03.600 --> 01:03:08.680 amount of required open space if you do plug a well and put it in that area as an incentive 01:03:08.680 --> 01:03:12.980 or modifying minimum unit sizes or building height would all be examples of things that 01:03:12.980 --> 01:03:19.480 that may help incentivize a developer to plug a well so looking at that lot size example 01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:25.400 this just shows r4 and r6 so the standard for r6 for example 6000 square feet if we 01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:30.320 said if you if you plug the gas well on the property you can have uh 30 of your land area 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:35.400 developed with lots that are 30 smaller this is what that would look like those lots um 01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:40.280 30 of them could go down to 4200 square feet and they would gain nine lots in that example 01:03:40.280 --> 01:03:47.160 um so this didn't seem like a very high number to us so before going to council with this 01:03:47.160 --> 01:03:52.600 we did approach the dallas builders association that's the regional represent representation 01:03:52.600 --> 01:03:57.800 group for all of our major home builders many of dentons builders are a member of that so 01:03:57.800 --> 01:04:02.320 we went to them for some initial feedback on would this sort of thing even be an incentive 01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:08.560 would it be enough incentive to pursue plugging a gas well they they did not feel like it 01:04:08.560 --> 01:04:13.020 was their take on this was that given the current market demand for kind of standard 01:04:13.020 --> 01:04:18.480 size lots with standard building pads that allowing some of the lots to be smaller wouldn't 01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:23.840 necessarily help anything for them um instead they they said that the bigger incentive for 01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:27.400 a developer would be of course looking at offsetting those financial costs that they 01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:33.360 would incur by plugging a well they specifically indicated that waivers to our park fees our 01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:37.520 tree mitigation fees or even development review and impact fees might be more of an incentive 01:04:37.520 --> 01:04:42.560 for them to help with that financial burden um hey hayley how much does it cost to plug 01:04:42.560 --> 01:04:50.560 a gas well um that is there's not a set number it's kind of situational specific to how the 01:04:50.560 --> 01:04:56.120 well was initially drilled um you know how uh what the pressure of the well is for example 01:04:56.120 --> 01:05:00.600 could play into that there's many factors um i did find in researching this that the 01:05:00.600 --> 01:05:05.240 railroad commission um has kind of an average they publish for each district based on the 01:05:05.240 --> 01:05:09.440 cost they incur through that orphan well program and that it was in the ballpark of about four 01:05:09.440 --> 01:05:14.800 dollars and 30 cents per foot of depth that has to be plugged in the well um so i looked 01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:20.600 at some examples of recent well plugins for example um in the dreary track that we recent 01:05:20.600 --> 01:05:23.800 recently saw a preliminary platform i think it worked out to be about thirty three thousand 01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:28.440 dollars just for the actual cementing of the well um that number from what i could tell 01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:33.920 on the railroad commission site did not include um removing equipment from the site any remediation 01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:39.440 that might have to occur from contamination that could have been on there um so thirty 01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:47.340 thousand and up probably would be a fair estimate for that gotcha thank you um so we we posed 01:05:47.340 --> 01:05:50.960 these questions to council so i kind of run through uh the guidance that they left us 01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:56.320 with yesterday um with regards to number one they they were all unanimously in favor of 01:05:56.320 --> 01:06:00.960 adding back a prohibition against building on top of a gas well many of them even said 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:05.180 they would prefer it go beyond structures and also include paving and other improvements 01:06:05.180 --> 01:06:10.440 so that the well is strictly left in an open area um with respect to number two um again 01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:15.320 there was general consensus that we we should establish some sort of no build easement um 01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:21.080 the the gist of uh the group or the majority of them um thought that 20 feet seemed reasonable 01:06:21.080 --> 01:06:25.080 but they wanted us to find a way to be as flexible with that as possible um so the goal 01:06:25.080 --> 01:06:29.120 of that easement again would be ensuring nothing's built there but also ensuring that access 01:06:29.120 --> 01:06:33.080 could be maintained to the well if for some reason there was a casing failure and they 01:06:33.080 --> 01:06:39.060 did have to go back in and and redo um some of the cement that that radius would leave 01:06:39.060 --> 01:06:43.880 um in theory enough room for them to get in with equipment and do that um but council 01:06:43.880 --> 01:06:47.080 was encouraging us to find a way to make that flexible so instead of saying the well has 01:06:47.080 --> 01:06:52.080 to be exactly center could we could we say you you provide x amount of area within the 01:06:52.080 --> 01:06:56.160 easement but you can offset it you know to one side for example if they needed to to 01:06:56.160 --> 01:07:00.380 work within their development um so we'll be exploring options with regard to that to 01:07:00.380 --> 01:07:06.880 see um you know how how that could be worked around um and then with respect to incentives 01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:12.840 they kind of left uh left staff with direction to to explore the existing uh options in the 01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:16.800 code look at how to expand clustering and things like that uh to be more applicable 01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:22.360 in these scenarios but they were not in favor of the financial offsets that the dallas builders 01:07:22.360 --> 01:07:27.780 association requested um so we will we'll be exploring all of these things in the future 01:07:27.780 --> 01:07:31.800 and that is my last slide so i will um i'll stop sharing this and then we can open it 01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:37.160 up for discussion and any recommendations that you all may have christner back thank 01:07:37.160 --> 01:07:43.480 you chair um hayley um so you early on in your presentation you sort of indicated say 01:07:43.480 --> 01:07:46.840 on that example at windsor and i'm not asking you to bring it back up because i think we 01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:52.240 can recall it that they gained back the use of that property based on our reverse setbacks 01:07:52.240 --> 01:07:58.360 and uh no longer being in play uh because it's a plugged well and even with some of 01:07:58.360 --> 01:08:03.240 these uh other restrictions that council was interested in you still are gaining back the 01:08:03.240 --> 01:08:10.240 majority of that property so how is that not the financial incentive i guess my i'm i'm 01:08:10.240 --> 01:08:13.800 trying to understand why we need additional financial incentives other than just getting 01:08:13.800 --> 01:08:20.600 the land back in use that that's a fair question um that's that's kind of the direction that 01:08:20.600 --> 01:08:25.080 a lot of council felt like as well um but in the the spirit of encouraging this as much 01:08:25.080 --> 01:08:29.640 as possible i think uh they were interested in if there were other things in the ddc that 01:08:29.640 --> 01:08:33.360 we could just for example clearing up the applicability of clustering to say that yes 01:08:33.360 --> 01:08:38.000 this is this can be applied in this scenario if you're still following the open space guidelines 01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:42.000 um that's something that we could look at um but i i think in general they were kind 01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:46.480 of on the same page as you is that regaining the land in itself is probably going to be 01:08:46.480 --> 01:08:51.520 a market incentive enough as we've seen with some recent developments sage work for example 01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:56.680 uh plugged well to facilitate that development um we had recently a subdivision on ryan road 01:08:56.680 --> 01:09:00.880 that did the same thing um and then the jury tract like i mentioned off of i believe that's 01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:06.880 off of highland park road uh was another recent example so i i suspect that is the case but 01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:11.400 they asked us to pursue you know just seeing what other flexibility we can find with the 01:09:11.400 --> 01:09:15.800 reason oh yeah sorry to interrupt i apologize it does seem like developers are choosing 01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:22.320 that option on their own to get the land back so i i mean there there i think well you know 01:09:22.320 --> 01:09:25.200 this is me personally i think there's lots of room for flexibility we can build into 01:09:25.200 --> 01:09:31.200 our zoning laws to for you know clusters and other things that are appealing it feels like 01:09:31.200 --> 01:09:36.560 maybe we do those for other good reasons and maybe not for gas wells um so anyway thanks 01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:45.840 hailey um hailey just uh to to um speak real fast and i think tim smith uh christopher smith 01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:53.080 was next um i 100 agree with commissioner beck on this uh that graph the the windsor property 01:09:53.080 --> 01:09:58.840 you showed highlights it pretty clear to me that uh if they want to use the property they 01:09:58.840 --> 01:10:04.800 got to plug the well um so it i'm not shocked that developers want a lot of financial kickbacks 01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:11.360 or help for the thirty thousand dollar plus cost it's going to be but it it does seem 01:10:11.360 --> 01:10:19.560 that there is an incentive built in to use of land um with that um i did have a question 01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:27.400 about um the the setbacks on the the 20 feet when they did the the air emission um that 01:10:27.400 --> 01:10:33.560 risk the with the i think you i don't know what i'm saying the air quality emissions 01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:39.360 from the site were they doing it like directly above the plug or did they go out 20 feet 01:10:39.360 --> 01:10:44.920 and and measure it there do you know um i believe it was was fairly close to the well 01:10:44.920 --> 01:10:49.520 head like you know like you said probably directly above the well head or within just 01:10:49.520 --> 01:10:54.840 a few feet of it um i don't recall a specific radius being referenced there um 20 feet my 01:10:54.840 --> 01:11:00.160 understanding is that um primarily was driven for for access to the well site um and speaking 01:11:00.160 --> 01:11:05.360 to our gas well inspector um in the past um he had indicated that the type of rig that 01:11:05.360 --> 01:11:09.720 they have to get in uh if they do need to re-cement the well or if there's a casing 01:11:09.720 --> 01:11:16.600 failure for example um does does need a fairly large area to work around um and and kind 01:11:16.600 --> 01:11:23.200 of a 40-foot circle seemed sufficient for that um again that's that's no scientific 01:11:23.200 --> 01:11:26.720 data to support that that's just the general uh kind of rule of thumb that he spoke to 01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:31.260 and then um again a couple of the the muds that have recently gone before council offered 01:11:31.260 --> 01:11:36.880 that as as their standard um so just for consistency that was our recommendation to council was 01:11:36.880 --> 01:11:43.120 that we stick with that 20 feet that we've already established okay gotcha commissioner 01:11:43.120 --> 01:11:51.060 smith um a couple things i'm i'm the uh i agree with uh commissioner beck and chair 01:11:51.060 --> 01:11:56.200 roselle on the getting access back to that that piece of property that just kind of does 01:11:56.200 --> 01:11:59.960 seem to find chance and if i do see where the builders are coming from there that you 01:11:59.960 --> 01:12:04.720 know in this in the property you showed us that example correct me if i'm wrong but that 01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:09.280 that that well that they're going to plug is not on their their their property it's 01:12:09.280 --> 01:12:14.160 on the property next to them and so i could see that being hey we want to develop our 01:12:14.160 --> 01:12:19.120 property but our neighbor has a well and that that kind of being maybe a conundrum in their 01:12:19.120 --> 01:12:24.080 mind but at the same time it's you know you should if you want being that land back that's 01:12:24.080 --> 01:12:30.600 on you one thing that might be a dumb question or a dumb suggestion and i don't know how 01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:36.120 it can be built into the code but something where if there was a plug gas well ordinance 01:12:36.120 --> 01:12:42.760 that had setbacks that would force any property that was going to develop that because most 01:12:42.760 --> 01:12:46.880 of these properties that are going to be in that area probably aren't already zoned correctly 01:12:46.880 --> 01:12:52.680 and they'd have to come before a zoning process that they'd be forced into doing a pd just 01:12:52.680 --> 01:12:57.480 because of the provisions that are within the pd of having a codified site plan that's 01:12:57.480 --> 01:13:02.280 within that zoning so that if it comes in front of you know the plan zoning commission 01:13:02.280 --> 01:13:07.000 in front of city council to be rezoned to be developed into a residential property that 01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:12.440 the pd and a site plan would be solidified there so that there's some oversight on how 01:13:12.440 --> 01:13:16.720 that site plan we've built and then proximity to a gas well i don't know if that if there's 01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:21.920 ability or if i'm just sound like an idiot now but uh any feedback on that haley no no 01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:25.880 i understand where you're coming from with that that's something we could we could certainly 01:13:25.880 --> 01:13:29.960 look into um again not sure how feasible it would be but we can we can talk that through 01:13:29.960 --> 01:13:33.480 and and talk with cynthia about it and see see if we can find a way to work something 01:13:33.480 --> 01:13:37.920 like that in to ensure there is some extra oversight okay cynthia just from island notification 01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:41.640 is that that's something that can be done is that is that is there a legal ramification 01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:45.600 on that 01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:49.640 commissioner smith are you asking whether we can require someone to zone the property 01:13:49.640 --> 01:13:54.480 pd if they have a gas well uh if they have a gas well or whether they're within a let's 01:13:54.480 --> 01:13:59.320 say the gas well ordinance says if your property is within more than 30 of your properties 01:13:59.320 --> 01:14:04.520 within 250 setback 10 or 50 foot setback from plug gas well you're requiring you're requesting 01:14:04.520 --> 01:14:10.240 a zoning rezoning you have to go pd that's something certainly something that we can 01:14:10.240 --> 01:14:19.880 explore okay all right thanks for your all right you're very you're very robust i appreciate 01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:27.640 or or encourage thank you okay thank you uh christner beck thank you chair um so commissioner 01:14:27.640 --> 01:14:33.000 smith's question about the pd makes me think at various stages when we're doing development 01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:37.280 as we've recovered this land and regardless of what sort of right of ways and easements 01:14:37.280 --> 01:14:43.520 and setbacks that we put in place um and maybe you know again maybe this is i can't i don't 01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:48.760 know this is a development or a legal question but is it something where at these various 01:14:48.760 --> 01:14:59.120 stages we could require development around a gas well to re-monitor to go out and retest 01:14:59.120 --> 01:15:03.720 because this this goes to my very first question at this presentation is you know you know 01:15:03.720 --> 01:15:09.400 i actually have firsthand knowledge of people doing real world work on plugs that are breaking 01:15:09.400 --> 01:15:15.560 and and you know we didn't have fractures you know 20 years ago but now we do and if 01:15:15.560 --> 01:15:23.880 those fractures are uh microquakes are breaking the plugs then it behooves us to go and make 01:15:23.880 --> 01:15:30.720 sure that those plugs are continuing to be safe for the surrounding neighbors and so 01:15:30.720 --> 01:15:37.320 is this something where we could have a an additional rider of some sort that said you 01:15:37.320 --> 01:15:41.960 know if you're going to develop at you know a plat or a engineering plan or or whatever 01:15:41.960 --> 01:15:47.520 that we could require you to rebook excuse me to re-monitor the current conditions to 01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:59.640 make sure that they still met guidelines i don't know who would answer that um looking 01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:04.920 over at richard i'm not sure that we could require that um we could maybe explore that 01:16:04.920 --> 01:16:09.760 option yeah i don't know if that would fall under house bill 40 of regular again i don't 01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:16.760 know this would be above ground for the most part obviously you wouldn't the inspectors 01:16:16.760 --> 01:16:22.600 you know all that below ground stuff it had been was done presumably this would be whatever 01:16:22.600 --> 01:16:26.920 components were above ground that would be in our purview i think we can look into it 01:16:26.920 --> 01:16:32.080 the only question i would have i guess probably more for for legal is whose responsibility 01:16:32.080 --> 01:16:37.840 is it is that the the surface owner or um did that individual who did the the well still 01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:41.400 have mineral rights that it would could could or would be their responsibility i think we 01:16:41.400 --> 01:16:46.000 just have to have to run that down well i'd appreciate that if that isn't you know if 01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:49.940 we could stick that in somewhere i think that would be interesting just that way we know 01:16:49.940 --> 01:16:59.080 whenever we're developing whatever path we take we know that it continues to be safe 01:16:59.080 --> 01:17:05.760 thank you hey hailey can i ask a question you mentioned i think i heard this right um 01:17:05.760 --> 01:17:10.280 some of the data you got from the cost to plug a well is from the orphaned well program 01:17:10.280 --> 01:17:15.400 like is there there it seems like there's some sort of funding for the state to find 01:17:15.400 --> 01:17:21.800 orphaned wells and proactively plug them am i understanding that that exists correct so 01:17:21.800 --> 01:17:25.560 it's a a program the railroad commission has i'm not sure what the source of the funding 01:17:25.560 --> 01:17:32.280 is but they do each year go out and and wells that they know have have been orphaned there's 01:17:32.280 --> 01:17:36.200 no contact for the operator the operator's gone out of business um whatever the case 01:17:36.200 --> 01:17:41.520 may be they do have funding to to then use that to go in and make sure that those wells 01:17:41.520 --> 01:17:46.680 are are plugged correctly um but it is a state program i don't believe it that funding would 01:17:46.680 --> 01:17:52.600 be available for for any private use um well i was i mean obviously it's it's not probably 01:17:52.600 --> 01:17:56.960 for this commission's uh conversation but if there's an interest in the state of texas 01:17:56.960 --> 01:18:03.120 to plug wells that aren't being used then maybe there would be some sort of um cooperation 01:18:03.120 --> 01:18:08.560 between private use and whatever funding exists at the state level for orphaned wells to help 01:18:08.560 --> 01:18:14.680 pay for the plug-in if a developer could petition the state to say you and i are aligned to get 01:18:14.680 --> 01:18:20.080 this plugged instead of it leaving it here i just don't know if there's another if there's 01:18:20.080 --> 01:18:28.880 better financial mechanisms to to um for for developers that aren't our responsibility 01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:33.440 if we can't touch below ground and the state can then it seems like this should developer 01:18:33.440 --> 01:18:39.120 should go ask the state for money yeah i'm not sure if that's a possibility but i can 01:18:39.120 --> 01:18:50.160 i can try to find out uh just my two cents any other questions for hayley on this topic 01:18:50.160 --> 01:18:53.600 commissioner alice thank you chair you know what i don't really have a question i just 01:18:53.600 --> 01:18:57.120 wanted to thank hayley i know you put a lot of work into this so thank you very much it 01:18:57.120 --> 01:19:01.880 was great great information yeah and i think you got pretty good direction i'm i'm certainly 01:19:01.880 --> 01:19:06.160 on board with the incentive is you get to build on more land when you plug the well 01:19:06.160 --> 01:19:10.600 so that that's that's a good incentive and then i guess i would just offer my two cents 01:19:10.600 --> 01:19:15.680 about um the radius that you talked about um and that's seeing if if you don't need 01:19:15.680 --> 01:19:21.760 it all the way around maybe look into if if it does have have to be accessed because the 01:19:21.760 --> 01:19:26.280 plug fails i mean maybe you do need a radius you know i don't know if it was all just on 01:19:26.280 --> 01:19:30.080 one side if that would give them enough you know whatever would have to come in there 01:19:30.080 --> 01:19:34.760 again um but anyway just food for thought um when you're researching that yeah that 01:19:34.760 --> 01:19:41.560 sounds like you can too thank you yeah thank you very much for your work any other questions 01:19:41.560 --> 01:19:48.040 okay hey like commissioner alice said thank you for the hard work i know you've done this 01:19:48.040 --> 01:19:52.440 presentation a couple times now so uh thank you for uh presenting it to us yep thank 01:19:52.440 --> 01:20:00.360 you uh moving on with our agenda the uh we get into uh the actual meat of the agenda 01:20:00.360 --> 01:20:04.060 it looks like we have some postponements but uh richard is there any other clarification 01:20:04.060 --> 01:20:09.720 of the agenda that we need to be aware of no the the only thing i'll add is the items 01:20:09.720 --> 01:20:13.760 that are being postponed the public hearings we would looking forward to open those public 01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:20.480 hearings um and then continue them or or postpone to a date certain uh great and these are all 01:20:20.480 --> 01:20:26.320 three of them the staff is recommending these postpone they're not applicant recommendations 01:20:26.320 --> 01:20:31.320 these are staff requested okay so open public hearing and uh take a motion commissioner 01:20:31.320 --> 01:20:37.880 beck thank you chair and richard i asked you about this on email but but just for the commission's 01:20:37.880 --> 01:20:42.440 sake we are notifying everyone that made a comment because we received a number of comments 01:20:42.440 --> 01:20:48.520 correct so yeah so any any comments that we would have received uh via um the online form 01:20:48.520 --> 01:20:54.240 i think that you get copied on um through through the email in addition any direct emails 01:20:54.240 --> 01:20:59.920 that we get um we usually keep a a spreadsheet of any contact that we've had um or anyone 01:20:59.920 --> 01:21:06.280 that that's submitted comments or folks that uh when we sent the the mail notice uh requirement 01:21:06.280 --> 01:21:12.400 under um 211 if we have those contacts then we would we would either email them call them 01:21:12.400 --> 01:21:19.300 whatever whatever whatever whatever they provided us we would we would reach back out um so 01:21:19.300 --> 01:21:26.720 yes that will happen that's awesome thank you so much so uh we'll start with item two 01:21:26.720 --> 01:21:35.800 minutes is there any um feedback or edits that need to be made to the minutes okay seeing 01:21:35.800 --> 01:21:41.440 done we'll go to item 3a it's our one item for individual consideration uh surprise it's 01:21:41.440 --> 01:21:48.440 hailey uh it's 3a pp 20-0021 01:21:48.440 --> 01:22:03.880 all right just one second let me get this pulled up we thought we'd give julia break 01:22:03.880 --> 01:22:09.120 and turn it now into the hailey show yeah all all night so all we got is hailey tonight 01:22:09.120 --> 01:22:31.560 all right yeah so just briefly uh this is a preliminary plat for the woodlands on mckinney 01:22:31.560 --> 01:22:36.440 street so you can see the property location here uh this is ryan high school for reference 01:22:36.440 --> 01:22:41.800 uh this is trinity boulevard here on the um the east side of the property um staff is 01:22:41.800 --> 01:22:46.080 recommending denial of this request as it doesn't yet meet all of the established requirements 01:22:46.080 --> 01:22:51.960 of the code um those were all outlined in exhibit two of your backup um however the 01:22:51.960 --> 01:22:57.160 applicant has requested an extension to the november 18th uh meeting and staff has no 01:22:57.160 --> 01:23:02.320 objection to that i'm happy to answer any questions you all may have on the plat chris 01:23:02.320 --> 01:23:08.800 sir beck thank you chair hailey in general um i'm i'm not familiar with the the levels 01:23:08.800 --> 01:23:15.440 of infrastructure that we have to service that area do we have i mean if if there was 01:23:15.440 --> 01:23:19.320 a development anywhere close to this kind of development do we have sufficient infrastructure 01:23:19.320 --> 01:23:25.760 generally to connect in and support that in terms of utilities um i as far as i know yes 01:23:25.760 --> 01:23:32.400 we do they'll be tying in on mckinney and trinity for um water and sewer um this site um does have a 01:23:32.400 --> 01:23:38.160 bit of history that some of you may not be familiar with it came through um i believe it was a year 01:23:38.160 --> 01:23:42.960 and a half two years ago now for a specific use permit to permit uh the the manufactured housing 01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:48.400 development there were some very specific conditions tied to that sup for mobility improvements 01:23:48.400 --> 01:23:53.120 so they will be dedicating right away for the future post oak boulevard that will come through 01:23:53.120 --> 01:23:58.160 this area according to our mobility plan but more specifically they'll be making improvements on 01:23:58.160 --> 01:24:04.800 mckinney um so there are left turn lanes required as part of the sup to to get access into the site 01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:09.840 here and there are sidewalk improvements required to ensure that future residents here can safely 01:24:09.840 --> 01:24:15.200 get to the high school specifically so those those improvements are required of them but in 01:24:15.200 --> 01:24:22.240 terms of utilities yes there there is capacity to serve awesome thank you any other commissioner 01:24:22.240 --> 01:24:29.280 pranetta um yeah and just this was the property where there was a big concern about a bottleneck 01:24:29.280 --> 01:24:35.840 bridge like right by that right is it is am i thinking of the same one yes i believe so um 01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:40.000 richard feel free to jump in if i'm speaking incorrectly but i believe it was up here at mills 01:24:40.000 --> 01:24:46.080 and trinity um it was where there was concern um so i believe also as part of the sup that there 01:24:46.080 --> 01:24:49.840 was some funding required to help with improvements on trinity boulevard as well 01:24:50.400 --> 01:24:56.400 correct even further up actually on in um that lakeview states i can't think of the 01:24:56.400 --> 01:25:01.680 name of the neighborhood um but on lakeview itself there were some traffic calming measures 01:25:01.680 --> 01:25:07.040 that they were required to put in place or at least fund i should say um as part of that sup 01:25:07.040 --> 01:25:12.240 okay thank you i remember completely now it was the bridge was washed out okay 01:25:14.240 --> 01:25:23.280 christopher was this the development that led to our 2 a.m meeting yeah i believe it was 01:25:23.280 --> 01:25:31.920 uh we all remember that night uh any other questions 01:25:31.920 --> 01:25:41.440 great uh so that moves us into the public hearing uh 4a is uh being postponed uh 4c 01:25:41.440 --> 01:25:46.400 and 4d are also being requested to be postponed uh like richard just said we'll open the public 01:25:46.400 --> 01:25:51.040 hearing and uh take a vote uh so the only public hearing that we need a presentation on this 01:25:51.040 --> 01:25:58.560 evening since we'll hear the other ones at a future date is item 4b pd 20-0006 and this is 01:25:58.560 --> 01:26:05.920 hayley zugerski's item chair if i can just clarify uh for yes for item 4a we will not need to open 01:26:05.920 --> 01:26:11.360 that um since we will be bringing that at because it is a date i'm certain we'll just we won't need 01:26:11.360 --> 01:26:25.280 to open that thank you all right so this item is a planned development for texas health resources 01:26:25.280 --> 01:26:31.600 you can see the location here on the map so this includes the the main hospital campus as well as 01:26:32.240 --> 01:26:36.160 an adjacent lot with several medical office buildings that is owned by the the hospital 01:26:36.160 --> 01:26:42.160 entity currently it's all zoned mix use regional or mr district and they are looking to rezone 01:26:42.160 --> 01:26:48.080 the entire 38 acres to plan development and just for reference this is scripture street on the 01:26:48.080 --> 01:26:53.040 north oak is to the south of the property and we have bonnie bray here on the east and i-35 bounding 01:26:53.040 --> 01:27:00.000 it on the west this is just a look at our current and proposed zoning map so again all mr today and 01:27:00.000 --> 01:27:04.480 they would be looking to to make all of this a planned development still relying on that mr 01:27:04.480 --> 01:27:11.920 is the base district so this is a little unique compared to pd's where we normally see kind of a 01:27:11.920 --> 01:27:17.680 blank slate with new development in this instance the site is fully developed today so what you see 01:27:17.680 --> 01:27:23.040 here on the map the green is all the landscape area that exists on the site today the existing 01:27:23.040 --> 01:27:27.680 hospital i wanted to point out this area in blue that you see on their plans labeled as current 01:27:27.680 --> 01:27:33.280 expansion they do have plans approved to add a new tower to the hospital this would be i believe a 01:27:33.280 --> 01:27:40.080 women's women's care facility so that project will be getting underway very soon the improvements 01:27:40.080 --> 01:27:45.040 associated with this there was a pretty even balance between what they were removing in terms 01:27:45.040 --> 01:27:47.920 of parking and what they would need to add back so it was kind of a wash there was no 01:27:47.920 --> 01:27:51.680 net effect there on site that's how they were able to move forward with this 01:27:52.560 --> 01:27:58.080 and then the area in orange i wanted to point out this is a building there's an existing building 01:27:58.080 --> 01:28:04.000 there today rather that will be demolished and then a new medical office building or medical 01:28:04.000 --> 01:28:08.320 clinic will be established there in the near future that's a plan again that's already improved 01:28:08.320 --> 01:28:13.520 so they show it as a current redevelopment on their site plan so with the adoption of the 01:28:13.520 --> 01:28:20.320 2019 ddc there were some changes in the code to parking specifically for hospitals that that 01:28:20.320 --> 01:28:24.960 negatively affected this site and then the changes to our landscaping as well those combined to 01:28:24.960 --> 01:28:29.760 create some some non-conformities on this site that would make it very challenging for them to 01:28:29.760 --> 01:28:34.880 develop in the future since the site based on our current ratios would be vastly over parked 01:28:34.880 --> 01:28:40.640 they wouldn't be able to expand parking and the hospital staff sees parking at a deficit already 01:28:40.640 --> 01:28:44.880 with people having difficulty when they visit finding a place to park there so they know in 01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:48.800 the future they're going to want to add more parking so this pd is intended to set the stage 01:28:48.800 --> 01:28:55.680 for that future expansion and redevelopment of this campus once the pd is established 01:28:55.680 --> 01:29:00.960 any changes to it changes to the site rather will either fall within the category of a minor pd 01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:05.680 amendment or a major generally speaking major would be if they were to add a building that would 01:29:05.680 --> 01:29:10.320 increase the square footage of the existing building by 10 percent or more that would trigger 01:29:10.320 --> 01:29:14.320 major so you would see those changes come back to you to update these plans as they go along 01:29:16.000 --> 01:29:25.760 christopher smith oh lost him oh there he is hit the wrong button uh hailey would uh would that be 01:29:25.760 --> 01:29:31.360 like a um what parking garage be included within that is that made that's i don't know if parking 01:29:31.360 --> 01:29:35.520 garages are counted in full square footage of the building or not yes i believe that would be a 01:29:35.520 --> 01:29:41.200 significant enough change to to trigger um a major amendment um but it would ultimately depend on the 01:29:41.200 --> 01:29:45.200 the scope of what they're proposing each time they come in to make changes but something that large 01:29:45.760 --> 01:29:53.200 i would expect would fall into the category of major okay thank you um so the the pd standards 01:29:53.200 --> 01:29:58.000 document um if you look through that you'll see it did propose some restrictions to the uses that 01:29:58.000 --> 01:30:02.640 are permitted with mr mr is one of our more permissive commercial districts um so with this 01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:06.960 pd they're narrowing the scope of that to to ensure that this site remains a hospital campus 01:30:06.960 --> 01:30:13.200 so this is the list of uses that they're proposing have permitted some of these you'll see are are 01:30:13.200 --> 01:30:18.080 more specific than what the code has we group medical uses into either hospital medical clinic 01:30:18.080 --> 01:30:23.200 or medical office they wanted to specify that some of these were specific things that they expect to 01:30:23.200 --> 01:30:29.040 have on site such as ambulatory or outpatient care facilities rehab facilities and senior care 01:30:29.040 --> 01:30:34.000 facilities so they've proposed new definitions that would be specific to this pd and then they 01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:38.960 also had a list of accessory uses that that are typically seen with a hospital that includes the 01:30:38.960 --> 01:30:47.280 helipad parking garages as well as storage and laundry facilities on site and then some of the 01:30:47.280 --> 01:30:52.320 other key changes that they're making with this pd relate primarily again to landscaping and parking 01:30:52.320 --> 01:30:58.320 so with respect to landscaping they did they are they are seeking to have some of the specific 01:30:58.320 --> 01:31:02.880 requirements for right-of-way screening and internal parking lot landscaping waves so that 01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:08.240 they can maintain their existing parking lots as they are the overall landscape area and tree 01:31:08.240 --> 01:31:14.400 canopy requirements would be the same as mr so 25 and 30 respectively but this again would allow 01:31:14.400 --> 01:31:19.760 that large existing parking lot to remain in its current state without them needing to go back and 01:31:19.760 --> 01:31:25.280 take up spaces to add internal landscape islands at the ratios that the code now requires but the 01:31:25.280 --> 01:31:31.440 the landscaping requirements the code would apply for new parking lots parking is one of the critical 01:31:31.440 --> 01:31:36.720 elements that they're they're looking to update here so our hospital services category requires 01:31:36.720 --> 01:31:42.320 one space for three patient beds as the the code standard for a minimum our code does allow you to 01:31:42.320 --> 01:31:48.320 go up to 125 of that as a maximum but it still doesn't get this hospital where it needs to be 01:31:48.320 --> 01:31:54.000 what they see as a reasonable ratio for themselves is a maximum of five spaces per one patient bed so 01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:58.320 they could go lower than that but five would be the maximum that they would intend to provide per 01:31:58.320 --> 01:32:04.800 patient and then for medical clinics and medical offices they're looking to change those from our 01:32:04.800 --> 01:32:10.560 ratio of 1 to 250 for clinics and 1 to 450 for offices to be one space per 200 square feet for 01:32:10.560 --> 01:32:16.320 each of those so this is just how that compares again a pretty significant increase for the 01:32:16.320 --> 01:32:24.000 hospital ratio and then a fairly minor increase related to medical clinics and offices with respect 01:32:24.000 --> 01:32:30.000 to our front parking design standards the code again is is very specific geared more towards 01:32:30.000 --> 01:32:34.640 standard commercial development like you might see at the mall when you have over 100 spaces 01:32:34.640 --> 01:32:39.600 in front of a building the code requires pad sites be left for development at the primary entrances 01:32:39.600 --> 01:32:44.480 and intersections so we would expect that with commercial development doesn't necessarily fit 01:32:44.480 --> 01:32:48.640 for a hospital campus so they're looking to waive that standard to ensure again that they can keep 01:32:48.640 --> 01:32:55.120 their large existing parking lot in its current state bicycle parking the code requires one space 01:32:55.120 --> 01:33:00.400 per 200 vehicles again that's not necessarily something that you would expect to see at a 01:33:00.400 --> 01:33:05.440 hospital they do intend to provide some bike parking but they're looking to decrease the 01:33:05.440 --> 01:33:11.200 amount and have that at one space per 100 vehicle spaces and then they've introduced some new 01:33:11.200 --> 01:33:16.080 standards specific to a parking structure because they do intend to eventually develop one of those 01:33:16.080 --> 01:33:20.800 on site so they wanted to set some standards for themselves to state that that would be no more 01:33:20.800 --> 01:33:25.680 than five levels and then it wouldn't be located along i-35 or in front of the main hospital so it 01:33:25.680 --> 01:33:30.400 would have to be kind of on that eastern side of the campus more towards bonnie brayer scripture 01:33:30.400 --> 01:33:38.800 most likely so as you've seen before we do have the general criteria applicable to all applications 01:33:38.800 --> 01:33:43.920 these were all outlined in your backup but just briefly it is consistent with our ddc 01:33:43.920 --> 01:33:48.720 standards they're not proposing any phasing at this time they'll be coming back 01:33:48.720 --> 01:33:52.960 to amend this as they as they make their path forward for the hospital campus and future 01:33:52.960 --> 01:33:58.480 redevelopment we would not expect since this is an established campus that there would be any 01:33:58.480 --> 01:34:03.520 significant adverse impacts with them expanding or redesigning and there is infrastructure in 01:34:03.520 --> 01:34:09.440 place today to serve the development we'll go through each of the six pd criteria briefly 01:34:09.440 --> 01:34:15.040 so the first being compliance with our comprehensive plan this site is designated 01:34:15.040 --> 01:34:21.760 on our future land use map as regional mixed use this designation was applied at our major 01:34:21.760 --> 01:34:26.960 intersections along the highways where we have these arterials intersecting them and have high 01:34:26.960 --> 01:34:31.440 accessibility that we expect to be able to support a regional draw so you see here on the map this 01:34:31.440 --> 01:34:37.440 includes the razor ranch area as well as the hospital specifically this designation in our 01:34:37.440 --> 01:34:42.080 comp plan does note that major medical facilities are appropriate in these regional mixed use areas 01:34:42.080 --> 01:34:47.200 because denton does serve a wider area so again with this being an existing development consistent 01:34:47.200 --> 01:34:52.480 with that designation we saw that the permitting the future expansion of this site would be within 01:34:52.480 --> 01:34:57.680 what the comp plan seems has deemed consistent and appropriate for this area 01:34:57.680 --> 01:35:05.280 criterion two is compliance with the ddc so as you could see in their standards they are proposing 01:35:05.280 --> 01:35:09.760 to follow the ddc in every way except for those specific deviations related to parking and 01:35:09.760 --> 01:35:16.320 landscaping and those are intended primarily just to allow them to continue to grow and expand this 01:35:16.320 --> 01:35:21.360 hospital campus to meet the needs of the city so we saw no concerns there with respect to compliance 01:35:21.360 --> 01:35:28.160 with the ddc the third criteria is looking at whether there's a greater building design amenities 01:35:28.160 --> 01:35:34.000 or connectivity proposed again this is unique with it being a fully developed site their new 01:35:34.000 --> 01:35:38.000 development would follow the building design standards of the code other than what they've 01:35:38.000 --> 01:35:43.040 called out for landscaping they would meet still the overall landscaping and tree canopy requirements 01:35:43.040 --> 01:35:48.560 of the code and the only modifications would be again to facilitate the redevelopment of some of 01:35:48.560 --> 01:35:55.360 this area and allowing them to expand parking to meet their needs criterion four is not applicable 01:35:55.360 --> 01:36:01.200 as there's no residential development as part of the pd and then criterion five speaks to whether 01:36:01.200 --> 01:36:07.360 a non the non-residential uses are appropriate in terms of location again given the highly 01:36:07.360 --> 01:36:13.520 accessible location of this it's kind of ideal for a hospital campus so there would generally be no 01:36:13.520 --> 01:36:17.360 issues with this use expanding on that site as it already has well-established access 01:36:17.360 --> 01:36:22.960 off of i-35 and oak which is a primary arterial and then bonnie bray as a secondary arterial 01:36:22.960 --> 01:36:28.320 future expansion of this site would be appropriate given that prominent location and again 01:36:28.320 --> 01:36:31.840 any of those major changes they make would come back before the pnz and council 01:36:34.480 --> 01:36:40.080 and then the sixth criteria is with respect to the provision of public facilities to support 01:36:40.080 --> 01:36:44.880 the development again being fully developed you can see here on the map with the blue lines being 01:36:44.880 --> 01:36:49.840 water red being sewer they have adequate utilities to serve the development and then they did provide 01:36:49.840 --> 01:36:55.120 a mobility exhibit that shows their their access points you can see here they have adequate access 01:36:55.120 --> 01:37:01.200 off of both the frontage road as well as oak and scripture to the north and south and then they do 01:37:01.200 --> 01:37:06.560 share access with the adjacent development here to have access points along bonnie bray as well 01:37:06.560 --> 01:37:14.000 public outreach was done according to our standard so we sent the 200 foot and 500 01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:20.240 foot notifications we've received no responses given the the nature of this area they did not 01:37:20.240 --> 01:37:24.560 hold a neighborhood meeting but we've received no negative feedback regarding this development 01:37:24.560 --> 01:37:30.000 staff is recommending approval of the request as we found it to meet all of our criteria 01:37:30.000 --> 01:37:33.760 and once it gets through pnz its next stop will be city council on november 10th 01:37:33.760 --> 01:37:39.440 and i'm happy to answer any questions uh commissioner smith thank you chair so hailey 01:37:39.440 --> 01:37:44.560 you said that the most reasonable place for them to put a parking garage then if this was changed 01:37:44.560 --> 01:37:50.320 would be on the east side of the property um along bonnie bray can you go to the quick site map there 01:37:50.320 --> 01:37:54.880 and kind of show the property and what the property boundaries would be around that area 01:37:58.000 --> 01:38:00.720 and then as you're doing that you can so 01:38:00.720 --> 01:38:10.160 bonnie bray's expansion can you remind me our primary arterial i think and then 01:38:10.160 --> 01:38:19.280 where we are right now in that expansion sure so looking at their site here since they they added 01:38:19.280 --> 01:38:24.480 standards that would say they cannot add a parking garage in this area they said they restricted 01:38:24.480 --> 01:38:29.600 themselves from putting it along 35 or in front of the hospital itself so really given kind of 01:38:29.600 --> 01:38:35.200 the unique configuration of their site that would leave them assuming this this existing 01:38:35.200 --> 01:38:39.440 redevelopment wouldn't go away here on this parcel would leave them this general area 01:38:39.440 --> 01:38:45.200 this existing women's center is what's being relocated to this tower so to my knowledge 01:38:45.200 --> 01:38:49.120 they haven't identified a use for this but this this is an example of an area they've indicated 01:38:49.120 --> 01:38:54.800 they would be looking to redevelop and find a new use for um but based on their standards here or 01:38:54.800 --> 01:39:01.120 here would be the most logical locations okay and then uh on north bonnie bray um it's a primary 01:39:01.120 --> 01:39:07.680 arterial correct um if i'm remembering the mobility plan correctly is a secondary arterial um 01:39:07.680 --> 01:39:13.840 but in terms of the bonnie bray project uh the roundabout scripture was recently complete and 01:39:13.840 --> 01:39:18.880 i don't recall the dates but i think last time i saw this um the portion adjacent to razor ranch 01:39:18.880 --> 01:39:25.120 was generally slated for 2021 2022 completion um on the north end but this area has largely 01:39:25.120 --> 01:39:30.080 been completed with that scripture roundabout that was prioritized and look i know i know 01:39:30.080 --> 01:39:36.320 just for all commissioners sake another word this is a this is a a zoning case it's not a 01:39:36.320 --> 01:39:45.200 we're not approving a you know a parking garage but going up 1500 in parking space from currently 01:39:45.200 --> 01:39:52.320 zoned allowances is quite an increase and there's no way they have the space to put you know to build 01:39:52.320 --> 01:39:59.840 15 000 or 15 1500 more parking spaces and they currently have now on flat level ground without 01:39:59.840 --> 01:40:04.960 building a parking garage so hayley really my my last question would be if it's there's a parking 01:40:04.960 --> 01:40:09.760 garage there is there when a construction like that occurs whenever there's a major i think you 01:40:09.760 --> 01:40:17.040 called it a major pd amendment that comes through is there any tia now tia stuff that goes through 01:40:17.040 --> 01:40:22.400 whenever those types of projects come before us again um so there there could be for the the 01:40:22.400 --> 01:40:27.840 current hospital expansion for example um they were they were able to document that the because 01:40:27.840 --> 01:40:32.400 they're offsetting an existing use but and just relocating it essentially there was no net increase 01:40:32.400 --> 01:40:39.840 in trips so if they were to propose you know a new facility of some sort on site if they if that 01:40:39.840 --> 01:40:44.240 initial analysis and trip generation showed that there would be a significant increase then a tia 01:40:44.240 --> 01:40:48.240 would be required for that but it would be looked at on a case-by-case basis depending on what 01:40:48.240 --> 01:40:52.880 they're adding so if they're demolished the existing women's center and build a parking garage 01:40:52.880 --> 01:40:59.440 there it would probably kick off a tia um i don't know that a parking garage itself would if that was 01:40:59.440 --> 01:41:04.960 the only use because the the parking garage wouldn't be inherently driving traffic to the site 01:41:04.960 --> 01:41:10.960 necessarily um if they were adding say new medical office buildings or adding a new tower to the 01:41:10.960 --> 01:41:18.160 hospital those would likely trigger the tia um the parking garage um probably wouldn't and it might 01:41:18.160 --> 01:41:22.800 be seen as kind of alleviating some of the traffic that they report currently circles the site looking 01:41:22.800 --> 01:41:27.920 for for parking during the day actually so yeah but you know if you got a parking garage just over 01:41:27.920 --> 01:41:33.040 there that is no one's i mean people are entering the hospital hospital campus from body brain now 01:41:33.040 --> 01:41:38.640 yes uh but the majority of that parking is along 35 and the majority of that parking is coming in 01:41:38.640 --> 01:41:43.760 off of what is that west oak down or not west oak uh yeah west oak down there and off of 01:41:43.760 --> 01:41:49.520 35 frontage road so if you're everyone's parking on the east side of the property you're going to 01:41:49.520 --> 01:41:55.360 be driving everyone to be pulling in off of body braid more than likely so i don't know that the 01:41:55.360 --> 01:42:00.240 fact that just the ability to then build a parking garage of course with the pd major amendment 01:42:00.240 --> 01:42:05.120 but not having a tia that comes along with it that's a little scary for me so 01:42:05.120 --> 01:42:09.760 okay thank you it could be a requirement um again our engineering team would just have to look at 01:42:09.760 --> 01:42:14.080 that and see if they have any concerns with with potential rerouting of traffic or anything of that 01:42:14.080 --> 01:42:18.800 nature could we can we can we somehow make that a requirement by passing the zoning 01:42:21.120 --> 01:42:27.360 um richard what are your thoughts on that no yeah i think the only difficulty again is 01:42:27.360 --> 01:42:33.200 looking at it the the generator would be the bit the number of beds that that that they're adding 01:42:33.200 --> 01:42:39.280 so if that's the case then then yes um it would be required but if they're not adding beds i don't 01:42:39.280 --> 01:42:45.760 know that they would go through again the expense to build that larger parking garage but um if they 01:42:45.760 --> 01:42:53.120 were adding again measurable square footage or converting uh an area um that was adding new beds 01:42:53.120 --> 01:42:57.600 of course that would be something we'd be able to to see when that if they if and when they did come 01:42:57.600 --> 01:43:02.800 in for the parking garage um to be able to ask those questions and and look at requiring that 01:43:02.800 --> 01:43:09.280 well i mean if this i mean i mean we're only one thing is just addressing the elephant right here 01:43:09.280 --> 01:43:15.520 that there this is a this is a rezone to be able to get themselves ready for a some sort of parking 01:43:15.520 --> 01:43:21.360 reconfiguration i mean moving the existing the existing women's facility to where it is on the 01:43:21.360 --> 01:43:26.240 on the site plan what hailey just showed us if there i don't know how many beds are actually 01:43:26.240 --> 01:43:32.640 increasing it by to that new place but it's not enough to warrant a 1500 increase in parking 01:43:32.640 --> 01:43:38.320 spaces and so there's obviously plans and works and i'm sure the applicant's going to be on and 01:43:38.320 --> 01:43:43.520 we'll love to hear from them later on but i mean this you know you don't you know you're not 01:43:43.520 --> 01:43:49.520 expanding the hospital by that much to require this much it's not proportional so um okay thank 01:43:49.520 --> 01:43:54.640 you well and i before we uh move on i just wanted to point out part of the i think the driver for 01:43:54.640 --> 01:43:59.680 that ratio they used is because the site is substantially over parked by our standard today 01:43:59.680 --> 01:44:05.040 so a part of that would just be kind of bringing their current parking into conformance um 01:44:05.040 --> 01:44:12.880 so you they would increase parking on the site by that much um a part of that number would be 01:44:13.520 --> 01:44:18.320 taken up by the existing parking on site today which is significantly more than what the code 01:44:18.320 --> 01:44:24.240 allows that the one per three patient bed ratio okay i mean are they i mean are they at where are 01:44:24.240 --> 01:44:30.400 they towards that maximum now of a one per three bed i mean are they are they are they currently 01:44:30.400 --> 01:44:35.040 do they currently have less than the maximum more than the maximum and non-conforming 01:44:35.040 --> 01:44:42.000 i think that's a minimum three per one bed is a minimum correct is it um the current requirement 01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:47.120 is is one space per three beds that's the minimum you can only go up to 125 percent of that without 01:44:47.120 --> 01:44:53.600 making your parking pervious yeah um so the ratio that they're at um i was trying to pull up the 01:44:53.600 --> 01:45:00.400 plan i believe it works out to where the one or i'm sorry five spaces per patient bed is pretty 01:45:00.400 --> 01:45:05.120 equivalent to what they have on site today actually um so that would apply to new moving forward 01:45:05.120 --> 01:45:09.760 they could add at that ratio but again the way they've written it that would be the maximum they 01:45:09.760 --> 01:45:15.120 could add they don't necessarily have to add that much um okay could you maybe could you maybe report 01:45:15.120 --> 01:45:21.440 that in uh in meeting of what their current ratio is right now that they're their minimum their 01:45:21.440 --> 01:45:27.440 minimum the minimum is obviously one per per three beds but their current parking right now is 01:45:27.440 --> 01:45:34.800 what the ratio is per bed right now i'd like to see that number you can do that 13 minutes from now 01:45:37.600 --> 01:45:45.440 i think commissioner beck is second in line thank you chair um my my questions are very similar 01:45:45.440 --> 01:45:55.280 the existing zoning uh precludes them building any parking garage right now uh it's this hypothetical 01:45:55.280 --> 01:46:02.160 on the old women's center um so the code does not necessarily prohibit parking garages it's fairly 01:46:02.160 --> 01:46:06.880 silent on them actually um but they are they are permitted and parking within a structure as the 01:46:06.880 --> 01:46:12.560 code is is written today doesn't count against you it doesn't count against that maximum um so 01:46:12.560 --> 01:46:18.400 they they could add a parking garage on site today um what they couldn't do is expand the surface 01:46:18.400 --> 01:46:26.560 parking um because they're already over parked so so if they if they tore down the women's center 01:46:26.560 --> 01:46:30.240 because they have the new women's center coming in and they put a parking garage as commissioner 01:46:30.240 --> 01:46:36.160 smith was suggesting and i i think we all agree that it's probably got to go there right uh then 01:46:36.160 --> 01:46:42.320 there's nothing about the zoning that precludes them from doing that so i guess then my question 01:46:42.320 --> 01:46:48.240 is i'm a little confused why we need to rezone if they can already do if they can already expand the 01:46:48.240 --> 01:46:54.400 parking so i my understanding of parking garage is just an option that they are considering um 01:46:54.400 --> 01:47:00.080 again the hospital campus is is rapidly growing and they don't necessarily know where they'll need 01:47:00.080 --> 01:47:06.160 to be five ten years from now so this is just building that toolkit for them to be able to to 01:47:06.160 --> 01:47:10.640 have the flexibility to redevelop the site as they need to in the future they've not expressed to 01:47:10.640 --> 01:47:15.280 city staff that yes 100 we are going to do a parking garage they just wanted to ensure that 01:47:15.280 --> 01:47:18.640 they have the option to do that and set some standards for what that could look like 01:47:18.640 --> 01:47:25.280 that's not to say they wouldn't do it the the challenge they've run into um thus far is for 01:47:25.280 --> 01:47:30.240 example with the women's tower the city's initial response to them was sorry you can't do it you're 01:47:30.240 --> 01:47:35.040 already over parked so they went through some pretty significant analysis to show us that 01:47:35.040 --> 01:47:39.120 what they were adding with that new women's tower would actually decrease the parking on site 01:47:39.120 --> 01:47:43.680 slightly and not increase the degree of non-conformity so this is just to avoid them having to go through 01:47:43.680 --> 01:47:49.200 that hurdle each time and and get to a point where we have to say you stop you can't add any more 01:47:49.200 --> 01:47:54.640 physical you know on the ground parking spaces on site um but that's what's setting the stage for that 01:47:55.360 --> 01:48:00.320 but that's for surface parking right so they if i mean if their only option was to make a parking 01:48:00.320 --> 01:48:08.320 garage they could under the existing zoning build a parking garage yes if i'm remembering the code 01:48:08.320 --> 01:48:12.240 correctly we don't see parking garages that often i believe the way the code is worded is that 01:48:12.240 --> 01:48:16.560 parking within a structure doesn't count against your maximum so it still counts towards the 01:48:16.560 --> 01:48:22.400 minimum you're required to have but if you go over and beyond that it wouldn't um since they're 01:48:22.400 --> 01:48:27.440 already non-conforming to parking um that is something i think we'd have to talk through 01:48:27.440 --> 01:48:32.400 maybe consult with our our city attorney's office on because that is a tricky situation 01:48:32.400 --> 01:48:38.480 um but in general if they were conforming and this was a you know any other site in the city 01:48:38.480 --> 01:48:42.480 a parking garage wouldn't count against your maximum parking okay thank you 01:48:45.040 --> 01:48:52.640 commissioner alice thank you chair um hayley do we have any development standards for parking 01:48:52.640 --> 01:48:58.720 garages no the the only thing in the code is that is that statement essentially that it doesn't 01:48:58.720 --> 01:49:03.520 count against your maximum um we don't have design standards for those so that is one advantage of 01:49:03.520 --> 01:49:07.920 this pd is that they've they've set those ground rules that would prohibit a parking garage from 01:49:07.920 --> 01:49:12.560 appearing in in front of the hospital where they have the large parking lot today okay and they're 01:49:12.560 --> 01:49:19.280 requesting it to be no more than five levels is that what correct you said and how tall of a 01:49:19.280 --> 01:49:28.560 structure is that anybody know that roughly i'm guessing less than 50 because i think i think 01:49:28.560 --> 01:49:36.560 those plates within a parking garage are typically seven seven feet maybe okay it might be taller on 01:49:36.560 --> 01:49:42.240 the ground floor depending what what services you have in there but i would say definitely not above 01:49:42.240 --> 01:49:48.400 50 feet and if they do decide to build that they don't have to come do they have to come before 01:49:48.400 --> 01:49:58.080 you as to where and and or can they effectively just build the parking garage under today without 01:49:58.080 --> 01:50:04.240 the pd they or under under this well with yeah with the pd with the pd i believe it would just 01:50:04.240 --> 01:50:10.480 be limited to the to the area that hayley indicated where it couldn't be it couldn't be um along along 01:50:10.480 --> 01:50:17.120 i-35 okay and i guess my concern is that you know we have residential property on bonnie bray 01:50:17.120 --> 01:50:25.680 towards where you're saying most likely a parking garage would go so that's my concern um just in 01:50:25.680 --> 01:50:33.760 how tall in front of it in front of these homes would would this structure be um because that's 01:50:33.760 --> 01:50:39.600 where you know it looks like now where there's just existing parking lot and then that women's 01:50:39.600 --> 01:50:45.280 center um i guess it just depends where they would put it but that would be where my concern would 01:50:45.280 --> 01:50:51.040 lie where would be what we're putting in front of these houses that are there that where there 01:50:51.040 --> 01:50:57.440 currently is not a large structure yeah so once the pd is established anything they change would 01:50:57.440 --> 01:51:01.840 either be a minor or major amendment the code has some some criteria for what falls into the major 01:51:01.840 --> 01:51:05.360 amendment category those are the things that would come back before you and city council 01:51:07.120 --> 01:51:11.040 so again depending on what they're proposing at the time this would most likely come back before 01:51:11.040 --> 01:51:16.800 you all if it's a major change to the site um but even even if it were a minor amendment that 01:51:16.800 --> 01:51:20.720 staff could review there there are criteria in the code for if you're within so many feet of 01:51:20.720 --> 01:51:26.160 residential um you know height limitations stair stepping uh buildings and things such as that that 01:51:26.160 --> 01:51:32.000 could apply depending on where they were proposing to put it okay okay and that was my kind of where 01:51:32.000 --> 01:51:37.760 i was going with my initial question so there would be possibly some measures that we could take to 01:51:37.760 --> 01:51:45.120 ensure that possibly um it trying to think the width of bonnie bray may already exceed the 01:51:45.120 --> 01:51:50.320 separation for that true um but okay all right let me think on that thank you 01:51:50.320 --> 01:51:58.640 uh kisser smith nature hailey there's it says online there are 255 bed hospital now 01:51:59.440 --> 01:52:07.920 so five spaces 1275 spaces so do you know if you there's any space number that you can remember 01:52:07.920 --> 01:52:12.160 off the top of your head and how many spaces they have currently i couldn't find anything quickly in 01:52:12.160 --> 01:52:17.520 the staff analysis i didn't when i was talking when i was emailing you back and forth about this 01:52:17.520 --> 01:52:21.440 earlier this week i i didn't take into consideration the amount of spaces they had currently and where 01:52:21.440 --> 01:52:28.240 that was so yeah let me um i'll see if i have that data with the tower expansion that they recently 01:52:28.240 --> 01:52:38.000 did um it it should be in there okay all right appreciate it any other questions for hailey 01:52:38.000 --> 01:52:41.760 commissioner prunette i don't know if i saw your hand a while ago or not okay i don't want to miss 01:52:41.760 --> 01:52:53.200 you and hailey just in preparation um to kind of commissioner ellis's point in terms of the 01:52:53.200 --> 01:52:58.480 residents across the street there's medical building six on bonnie bray that looks to be 01:52:58.480 --> 01:53:05.120 about 50 feet right there and then the the property that is in question is set back 01:53:05.120 --> 01:53:12.640 more west than that kind of imposing building already um so i'm just wondering if you know the 01:53:12.640 --> 01:53:21.680 height of that building that's actually on bonnie bray there's a way to find out i don't i can try 01:53:21.680 --> 01:53:27.280 to find out before um yeah i'm looking at just a google street view and it looks every bit of 40 01:53:27.280 --> 01:53:32.800 feet but um i'm not i'm not sure yeah just i believe there are some forestry buildings over 01:53:32.800 --> 01:53:37.280 there which would be roughly 40 feet um yeah i can see if i can find out more specifically 01:53:37.280 --> 01:53:42.480 yeah okay any other questions for hailey on this item 01:53:45.840 --> 01:53:53.600 great uh thank you hailey for owning the agenda tonight uh without any opposition or is everyone 01:53:53.600 --> 01:53:59.520 ready to just go at 6 30 we have two items to get through this evening so i don't know how hungry 01:53:59.520 --> 01:54:06.320 everyone is but i'd be kind of um inclined just to get this at 6 30 and get it going 01:54:07.200 --> 01:54:17.920 okay i'm going to see that in agreement so what what mr col a pit stop that's right uh so let's 01:54:17.920 --> 01:54:22.960 take five minutes at 6 26 i'll close the work session we'll get back just after 6 30 and we'll 01:54:22.960 --> 01:54:34.400 do the um normal meeting thank you good evening ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the planning 01:54:34.400 --> 01:54:40.560 and zoning meeting for wednesday october 21st 2020 seeing that we do have a quorum i will call 01:54:40.560 --> 01:54:46.160 this meeting to order at 6 33 the first item of business is to provide a pledge of allegiance to 01:54:46.160 --> 01:54:53.520 the u.s and texas flag the commissioners can unmute them if they'd like to join along with me to to do 01:54:53.520 --> 01:55:04.400 this i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america to the republic for which it 01:55:04.400 --> 01:55:14.720 stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all honor the texas flag 01:55:14.720 --> 01:55:24.160 i pledge allegiance to the texas one state under god one indivisible next item of business is the 01:55:24.160 --> 01:55:31.680 consideration of our minutes from october 7th chair will commissioner ellis i move approval 01:55:31.680 --> 01:55:37.200 we have a first commissioner smith second we have a first and a second for approval any discussion 01:55:37.200 --> 01:55:46.000 on the item seeing nine i'll call for a vote via roll call christopher cole aye christopher smith 01:55:46.000 --> 01:55:54.400 aye christopher prunetta aye christopher anderson aye christopher beck aye christopher ellis 01:55:54.400 --> 01:56:01.600 aye chair is also an aye motion carries seven zero the next item of business is item 3a 01:56:01.600 --> 01:56:08.560 our items for individual consideration this item is pp 20-0021 and i'll invite hailey zygurski for 01:56:08.560 --> 01:56:25.760 presentation all right good evening this is item pp 2021 this is the woodlands on mckinney street 01:56:25.760 --> 01:56:30.880 which is a manufactured housing development you can see here it's located with mckinney street 01:56:30.880 --> 01:56:36.560 on the south side and trinity boulevard on the east side staff is recommending denial of this 01:56:36.560 --> 01:56:40.800 plan at this time as it doesn't meet the established requirements all of those were 01:56:40.800 --> 01:56:45.680 outlined in exhibit two in the backup however the applicant has requested an extension to 01:56:45.680 --> 01:56:50.800 the november 18th planning and zoning commission meeting to have time to work through those 01:56:50.800 --> 01:56:55.120 requirements and staff has no objection to that and i'm happy to stand for any questions 01:56:56.480 --> 01:57:04.000 great thank you for the presentation the chair will entertain discussion or motion 01:57:04.000 --> 01:57:10.000 commissioner smith make a motion to uh postman or to uh yeah approve the extension until date 01:57:10.000 --> 01:57:16.880 certain number 18 20 we have a first for approval and extension to a date certain of number 18th 01:57:16.880 --> 01:57:26.000 commissioner beck i'll second that we have a first and a second for an approval of the 01:57:26.000 --> 01:57:32.960 request for an extension to date certain of november 18th any discussion seen none i'll call 01:57:32.960 --> 01:57:40.160 for a vote via roll call commissioner cole aye commissioner smith aye commissioner pernetta 01:57:40.160 --> 01:57:49.200 aye commissioner anderson aye commissioner beck aye commissioner ellis aye chair is also an aye 01:57:49.200 --> 01:57:54.320 motion carries seven zero the next item of business is our public hearing items the first 01:57:54.320 --> 01:58:03.040 one is item 4a dca 20-0001e staff is requesting that this item gets postponed to a date certain 01:58:03.040 --> 01:58:11.760 so the chair will request a motion to that end commissioner smith make a motion to um 01:58:11.760 --> 01:58:17.680 postpone until date uncertain correct correct commissioner pernetta i'll second the motion 01:58:17.680 --> 01:58:22.800 we have a first and a second to postpone this item to a date uncertain any discussion 01:58:24.640 --> 01:58:28.320 seen none i'll call for a vote via roll call commissioner cole yeah 01:58:28.320 --> 01:58:36.960 commissioner smith aye commissioner pernetta aye commissioner anderson 01:58:36.960 --> 01:58:45.920 aye commissioner beck aye commissioner ellis aye chairs an aye and just for clarification 01:58:45.920 --> 01:58:54.000 commissioner cole was that a aye or a nay an aye i said yay i'm an aye okay just wanted to verify 01:58:54.000 --> 01:59:01.360 uh motion carries seven zero next item of business is item 4b uh pd 20-0006 01:59:01.360 --> 01:59:06.400 uh and i will call hailey zagorski for presentation and open the public hearing 01:59:06.400 --> 01:59:22.560 all right good evening this is item pd 26 for texas health resources 01:59:24.640 --> 01:59:30.160 so the request before you is a rezoning for 38 acres it's currently zoned mr and they are 01:59:30.160 --> 01:59:35.040 seeking a rezoning to pd the base zoning district would still be mr you can see the property 01:59:35.040 --> 01:59:40.720 outlined in yellow on the map it's bounded by i-35 on the west scripture to the north bonnie bray on 01:59:40.720 --> 01:59:47.520 the east and oak street to the south this is just a look at what our our rezoning map looks like 01:59:47.520 --> 01:59:52.320 today with the current zoning here on the left of mr and this is what it would look like if this 01:59:52.320 --> 02:00:00.960 rezoning to pd were approved so i wanted to first walk through the site this pd is a little unique 02:00:00.960 --> 02:00:06.960 since the campus is already developed today there is the existing hospital as well as medical office 02:00:06.960 --> 02:00:11.360 buildings throughout the site as well as an existing women's health center there are some 02:00:11.360 --> 02:00:16.640 current improvements that are underway the area shaded in blue is what they're calling phase one 02:00:16.640 --> 02:00:22.080 expansion for the hospital which is the new women's tower and then the area that shaded in the orange 02:00:22.080 --> 02:00:27.440 color is a medical office building that is currently under redevelopment the existing building will be 02:00:27.440 --> 02:00:33.360 demolished and a new facility is being built there some of the features on this site such 02:00:33.360 --> 02:00:37.440 as parking and landscaping were rendered non-conforming with our 2019 code update 02:00:37.440 --> 02:00:43.200 during the work session there was a question regarding existing parking on site what i was 02:00:43.200 --> 02:00:51.760 able to find based on the state after this tower is added the site will have 1029 parking spaces 02:00:51.760 --> 02:00:57.440 as it is today just for the hospital campus so the hospital lot generally ends somewhere in 02:00:57.440 --> 02:01:02.000 this area it doesn't include this is a separate lot over here with some of these out parcels the 02:01:02.000 --> 02:01:10.240 hospital itself has 1029 spaces based on the code requirement that we have today of one space per 02:01:10.240 --> 02:01:15.360 three patient beds only 504 spaces would be required so that hopefully gives you an idea 02:01:15.360 --> 02:01:20.240 of where they stand and the degree of non-conformity that was created which would mean that they they 02:01:20.240 --> 02:01:24.240 could never make site improvements that would expand that non-conformity so they couldn't add 02:01:24.240 --> 02:01:30.640 more surface parking to this facility again some of the landscaping features are also non-conforming 02:01:30.640 --> 02:01:35.120 such as the parking lot landscaping some of our requirements for right-of-way screening and things 02:01:35.120 --> 02:01:40.960 such as that so this pd is really just intended to set the stage to allow them to begin redeveloping 02:01:40.960 --> 02:01:45.840 and expanding this campus maintaining some of the features that they have on site today 02:01:46.400 --> 02:01:51.040 but also ensuring that they can can add parking to meet the hospital needs as they move forward 02:01:51.040 --> 02:01:57.920 so they've provided in your backup some standards for the proposed pd as well as 02:01:57.920 --> 02:02:02.880 documents showing existing conditions looking at the standards one of the things you'll notice is 02:02:02.880 --> 02:02:08.720 they are restricting the uses permitted within the mr district so this list here are the only 02:02:08.720 --> 02:02:13.840 uses that would be permitted on the site if the pd were approved so all the typical medical uses 02:02:13.840 --> 02:02:18.320 that you would expect as well as some supporting uses such as daycares and wellness facilities 02:02:18.320 --> 02:02:23.920 as well as recreation they do also permit some accessory uses such as helipads parking garages 02:02:23.920 --> 02:02:30.320 and storage and laundry they're introducing also some new uses these are things that could fit 02:02:30.320 --> 02:02:34.720 within one of the general categories in the code today in terms of medical clinics or offices but 02:02:34.720 --> 02:02:38.720 they wanted to specifically call these out as they are things that they expect to see on site 02:02:39.280 --> 02:02:44.640 and that's an ambulatory or outpatient care facility a wellness or rehab facility and a senior 02:02:44.640 --> 02:02:52.480 care facility and then looking at the specific deviations that they are proposing as part of 02:02:52.480 --> 02:02:57.840 this pd with respect to landscaping the code is fairly specific on the screening that has to occur 02:02:57.840 --> 02:03:02.160 at the right-of-way and how often you have to have landscape islands within a parking lot 02:03:02.160 --> 02:03:08.560 they're proposing to to modify that and the driver behind that is allowing that existing 02:03:08.560 --> 02:03:15.040 large parking lot to remain in its current state but to allow for landscaping to to be more in line 02:03:15.040 --> 02:03:20.480 with the code as they move forward so for for some of the areas where they're they have very limited 02:03:20.480 --> 02:03:24.560 space between the right-of-way and the parking they're proposing to reduce that to one screening 02:03:24.560 --> 02:03:31.200 element instead of two that the code requires and then internal parking lots islands would be applied 02:03:31.200 --> 02:03:40.080 to new parking lots at the same rate as the code for parking ratios this is the perhaps the largest 02:03:40.080 --> 02:03:45.840 change that they're proposing with the pd the hospital services use currently requires one 02:03:45.840 --> 02:03:51.360 space per three patient beds they're looking at a maximum of five spaces per one patient bed as 02:03:51.360 --> 02:03:58.080 their ratio and then medical clinics and offices require one to 250 and one to 450 respectively 02:03:58.080 --> 02:04:03.440 they are proposing a one space to 200 square foot ratio for both of those uses so this would be an 02:04:03.440 --> 02:04:08.640 increase above the code requirement for all of these but as i noted before and we talked about 02:04:08.640 --> 02:04:12.400 at work session some of this is simply to make up for the difference in the over parking that's on 02:04:12.400 --> 02:04:19.280 site today and then allow them room to expand in the future for front parking design standards the 02:04:19.280 --> 02:04:25.120 code requires that for for lots with more than 100 spaces which is what they have at the hospital 02:04:25.120 --> 02:04:31.680 today that there be out parcels provided at primary entrances and at intersections that is 02:04:31.680 --> 02:04:35.360 not something that you would typically see with a hospital so they're looking to waive that requirement 02:04:35.360 --> 02:04:41.200 and allow the existing front parking to remain in its current state bicycle parking the code requires 02:04:41.200 --> 02:04:47.280 it a ratio of one space for 20 vehicles they're looking to to decrease the amount required and 02:04:47.280 --> 02:04:52.000 have one space for 100 vehicles which is something that seems fairly reasonable at a hospital 02:04:53.360 --> 02:04:59.040 and then they're introducing standards for a parking garage as we discussed at the work session 02:04:59.040 --> 02:05:03.840 the ddc allows for parking garages but doesn't provide design standards for those so they are 02:05:03.840 --> 02:05:09.360 providing some limitations on what that parking garage could look like and where it could go 02:05:09.360 --> 02:05:14.560 they would limit it to no more than five levels and then they would limit the location that it 02:05:14.560 --> 02:05:19.360 could be in so that it wouldn't be located along i-35 or in front of the main hospital building 02:05:22.240 --> 02:05:26.400 in terms of our general criteria for approval we found it to be consistent with all of these 02:05:26.400 --> 02:05:32.160 they are consistent with the ddc and always except for the standards that they propose to deviate 02:05:32.160 --> 02:05:37.600 from and as this is an already developed campus we would not expect to see any significant adverse 02:05:37.600 --> 02:05:44.240 environmental or fiscal impacts if they continue to expand and redevelop and then we'll look at 02:05:44.240 --> 02:05:51.280 each of these six criteria for the for the pd in a little more detail the first is compliance with 02:05:51.280 --> 02:05:56.400 the comprehensive plan this area is designated as regional mixed use this is a designation that 02:05:56.400 --> 02:06:01.520 applies along our major highway corridors where we have major intersections and we expect due to the 02:06:01.520 --> 02:06:07.760 accessibility to have uses with a regional draw it is typically applied for higher intensity 02:06:07.760 --> 02:06:12.480 commercial or residential uses but the comp plan does call out specifically that our major medical 02:06:12.480 --> 02:06:18.080 facilities are our uses that fit within this designation so the subject property is already 02:06:18.080 --> 02:06:22.800 developed in accordance with the comp plan in that aspect and this proposed pd would facilitate the 02:06:22.800 --> 02:06:26.320 continued growth of this of this campus to meet the growing needs of the city 02:06:26.320 --> 02:06:33.200 the second criteria is compliance with the ddc again as we looked at with their standards 02:06:33.200 --> 02:06:39.040 they are only proposing to deviate from a select few items related to parking and landscaping to 02:06:39.040 --> 02:06:44.960 facilitate future development of the site and ensure that that they don't continually run into 02:06:44.960 --> 02:06:49.600 the hurdle of their parking being non-conforming as it is today so they are proposing to meet the 02:06:49.600 --> 02:06:56.800 ddc in all aspects except for the deviations that they've specifically requested criterion three is 02:06:56.800 --> 02:07:01.600 with respect to building design amenities and connectivity again the site is already largely 02:07:01.600 --> 02:07:07.040 developed anything that they develop on the campus in terms of building design would have to meet our 02:07:07.040 --> 02:07:11.840 ddc standards as they're not requesting any deviations from that the modifications with 02:07:11.840 --> 02:07:17.520 respect to parking and landscaping would not be expected to have any significant negative effect 02:07:17.520 --> 02:07:21.280 and they're still proposing to meet the minimum landscape and tree canopy requirements 02:07:21.280 --> 02:07:25.040 these modifications would just allow them more flexibility in where that goes on site 02:07:25.040 --> 02:07:30.480 criterion four is for residential uses which we don't have with this pd 02:07:30.480 --> 02:07:36.480 and then criterion five is rather the proposed non-residential uses are appropriate in terms of 02:07:36.480 --> 02:07:42.160 their location again the site is already established it has high accessibility off of 02:07:42.160 --> 02:07:48.720 four roadways with i-35 and oak street both being primary arterials bonny bray being a secondary 02:07:48.720 --> 02:07:54.720 arterial so they have adequate access to the site it is an appropriate location for them to continue 02:07:54.720 --> 02:08:01.600 expanding the hospital operations and just as a reminder any modifications they make once a pd is 02:08:01.600 --> 02:08:06.160 established would either be considered major or minor things such as building expansions by more 02:08:06.160 --> 02:08:13.280 than 10 would come back before the pnz and council as major amendments and then our final criteria is 02:08:13.280 --> 02:08:17.440 with respect to whether there are adequate facilities to support the development again the 02:08:17.440 --> 02:08:21.840 site is is developed so they have utilities in place as you can see here on on this map 02:08:21.840 --> 02:08:27.360 and then with regard to accessibility they do have adequate access to the site the blue circles are 02:08:27.360 --> 02:08:33.760 their major access points that are on on the hospital property these other blue circles that 02:08:33.760 --> 02:08:37.840 are not shaded are those access points that are off-site but they do have connectivity through the 02:08:37.840 --> 02:08:43.280 parking lot with these adjacent properties and then the yellow are their kind of minor access points 02:08:43.280 --> 02:08:50.640 notification was provided regarding this request in the newspaper on our website and through 02:08:50.640 --> 02:08:56.480 mailings we received no responses a neighborhood meeting was not held and staff is recommending 02:08:56.480 --> 02:09:02.240 approval of this request and their next stop will be city council on november 10th and i am happy 02:09:02.240 --> 02:09:08.320 to answer any questions thank you hailey for the presentation commissioner smith thank you hailey 02:09:08.320 --> 02:09:13.760 uh thank her thank you chair thank you hailey for uh for looking up uh those numbers on um the parking 02:09:13.760 --> 02:09:20.240 spaces so they're already grossly over parked by quite a lot um do you know how many new beds 02:09:20.240 --> 02:09:27.760 they're adding into that expansion they're building on you happen to know that um i believe the total 02:09:27.760 --> 02:09:35.520 beds they're relocating 48 beds from the existing uh women's facility so i don't believe i think it 02:09:35.520 --> 02:09:41.360 was a very minor increase in like only four to six beds being added most of them were relocation 02:09:41.360 --> 02:09:46.720 okay and if and if they had 48 beds in that old building if they even were to repurpose that for 02:09:46.720 --> 02:09:50.960 something else it'd probably be just another 48 beds in the first place so you know all together 02:09:50.960 --> 02:09:56.080 you're talking about maybe at most after they they redo their women's shelter women's uh 02:09:57.600 --> 02:10:03.600 facility they're probably going to add maybe the most couple they're the parking spaces aren't 02:10:03.600 --> 02:10:07.600 going to be maxed out basically it's uh it won't be a big issue it doesn't seem like um and then 02:10:07.600 --> 02:10:11.280 kind of looking at the site plan again if you could pull that up one more time just to point 02:10:11.280 --> 02:10:16.080 out i think for all commissioners just kind of as i've thought more about this since we talked 02:10:16.080 --> 02:10:21.840 about it on work session uh i would probably make a case and i'd like to hear from applicant 02:10:21.840 --> 02:10:29.680 whenever they get to visit i think that um right there it's fine it looks like where that mo b1 02:10:29.680 --> 02:10:34.320 really where mo b3 is right down there that medical office building three that seems like 02:10:34.320 --> 02:10:39.200 a smarter place to put a parking garage in the first place anyways um i don't know why you would 02:10:39.200 --> 02:10:42.720 put it all the way down there where that existing women's center is just so far away from the main 02:10:42.720 --> 02:10:46.960 hospital that it would make more sense to put it somewhere where they can even connect with the 02:10:46.960 --> 02:10:51.920 sky bridge like you see a lot of hospitals in the area do the parking garages so and it's got that 02:10:51.920 --> 02:10:58.960 accessibility to that one road there that connects the west west which is larger two-lane road that 02:10:58.960 --> 02:11:03.760 would then connect to the i-35 so that probably ends up being a smart place to put a parking 02:11:03.760 --> 02:11:10.400 garage if they're actually going there so okay uh mr smith uh this is uh chad anderson with hdr 02:11:11.280 --> 02:11:18.240 uh part of the applicant team i can i can maybe help address some of that so so thr owns the 02:11:18.240 --> 02:11:24.240 the land that those mo b1 and mo b3 sit on but those are land leases so they actually do not 02:11:24.240 --> 02:11:30.800 own the buildings uh the existing women's center building they do own and the plan is to demolish 02:11:30.800 --> 02:11:38.640 that once the new building is online and uh as you mentioned there's a there's currently a nice long 02:11:38.640 --> 02:11:44.720 sky bridge between the existing hospital and the existing women's center the idea would be that um 02:11:44.720 --> 02:11:52.320 that they would want to relocate a majority of the staff parking and create a staff lot surface lot 02:11:52.320 --> 02:11:57.280 at this time where that current women's center is uh they'd have to add a new elevator and 02:11:57.280 --> 02:12:03.440 stair etc at the end of that that uh sky bridge but the idea would be able to provide a convenient 02:12:04.480 --> 02:12:11.600 parking and access for staff because right now staff are taking up um much more of the front 02:12:11.600 --> 02:12:19.680 public parking than then they really uh would like them to the last few months aside obviously 02:12:19.680 --> 02:12:25.600 parking census from the public has been somewhat down because visitors haven't been able to get 02:12:25.600 --> 02:12:32.320 into the hospital that that aside under assuming normal operations uh it was taking away a 02:12:32.320 --> 02:12:37.600 significant amount of parking from the public so anyway that's the thinking is because those 02:12:37.600 --> 02:12:45.120 buildings are land leases um you're right from a physical location it would make sense but eventually 02:12:45.120 --> 02:12:50.320 where that existing women's center is would be the most likely candidate for a parking garage 02:12:50.320 --> 02:12:56.320 unless something changes with those land leases uh in the near future i will say this the parking 02:12:56.320 --> 02:13:03.760 garage is not something that's on uh i wouldn't even say it's within a 10-year horizon um it's 02:13:03.760 --> 02:13:10.080 just we're just trying to help them identify as this campus grows and develops and becomes 02:13:10.080 --> 02:13:16.880 you know denton is a vastly or fastly growing uh city county that this is going to become a 02:13:16.880 --> 02:13:21.680 larger hub as far as a regional hospital and so we're just trying to help them cover all their 02:13:21.680 --> 02:13:26.400 bases and thinking what could be some uses that they they're going to have to think about in the 02:13:26.400 --> 02:13:32.800 future and if this uh the idea is that when they eventually need new beds they that mob1 would be 02:13:32.800 --> 02:13:38.560 torn down and that's where more beds would go and at that point you really would need to to 02:13:38.560 --> 02:13:45.920 increase significantly the amount of parking for both staff and for public so it's it's a very 02:13:45.920 --> 02:13:51.600 long-term vision um at this point but we're just trying to kind of really think through all the 02:13:51.600 --> 02:13:56.080 scenarios in which to help them make sure that they're they're accounting for all the future 02:13:56.080 --> 02:14:00.160 possibilities thank you mr anderson i appreciate it yep 02:14:00.160 --> 02:14:07.840 is there other questions for staff or we have the applicant commissioner beck 02:14:07.840 --> 02:14:14.800 yes uh thank you chair hailey can i see uh slide five again i'm sorry to make you put it up and 02:14:14.800 --> 02:14:25.600 down again it's a yo-yo presentation not a problem this one yes so i something that this this second 02:14:25.600 --> 02:14:33.520 go around on the on the presentation um is there so you made the point that um they're they're 02:14:33.520 --> 02:14:43.440 tightly or more tightly uh detailing their pd than we would otherwise require of them we would have a 02:14:43.440 --> 02:14:51.440 more loose definition of medical facility and whatnot is there any danger in over specifying 02:14:51.440 --> 02:14:58.160 say for instance i mean say in mr anderson mentioned a 10-year plan if there was if for 02:14:58.160 --> 02:15:03.440 some reason they didn't put a senior care center in there and they wanted to put a an imaging 02:15:03.440 --> 02:15:09.680 facility uh is there any danger in that we've specified there has to be a senior care facility 02:15:09.680 --> 02:15:17.120 now they don't have room for an imaging facility so this list would just this specifies what could 02:15:17.120 --> 02:15:21.680 possibly go there it doesn't specify necessarily what has to go there this is just the list of 02:15:21.680 --> 02:15:26.480 possibilities of things that they they saw as reasonable that that may go there in the future 02:15:26.480 --> 02:15:30.880 or might already exist there this in no way says that they have to provide each one of these 02:15:30.880 --> 02:15:37.760 individual things on site so it's not limiting no not at all and this is based on you know we 02:15:37.760 --> 02:15:41.840 we do work all around the country and we're just trying to think of you know what we see 02:15:41.840 --> 02:15:48.400 what we see health care providers doing throughout the country such as you know a hotel i mean we 02:15:48.400 --> 02:15:53.200 md anderson's a good example right they do a lot of a lot of cancer treatments where people come 02:15:53.200 --> 02:15:59.680 from all over the country and are there for weeks or months at a time and that there's a hotel on 02:15:59.680 --> 02:16:06.320 on campus right so i mean don't immediately see that's not something that i would immediately say 02:16:06.320 --> 02:16:11.920 oh they need a hotel but 20 years from now you know we just we don't know what the health care 02:16:11.920 --> 02:16:17.360 environment will look like and so we're just trying to think what are what are some possibilities 02:16:17.360 --> 02:16:22.480 in the future that that we just want to account for that is by no means saying 02:16:22.480 --> 02:16:28.800 that there will be a hotel or that it would ever happen thank you thank you hailey 02:16:31.040 --> 02:16:38.160 any other questions for hailey commissioner alice thank you chair hailey just getting back a little 02:16:38.160 --> 02:16:44.320 bit to this parking garage so the way we have the pd um i guess the way this is going to be written 02:16:44.320 --> 02:16:50.560 is they have the ability to build that garage with without anything i mean unless they would go over 02:16:50.560 --> 02:16:56.560 10 of five stories or you know i mean there would be no reason that we would have any control over 02:16:56.560 --> 02:17:03.120 them building the garage so my question is with the concerns that we kind of raise can we put 02:17:03.120 --> 02:17:09.360 anything further in here that says at least the garage has to be reviewed in some you know the 02:17:09.360 --> 02:17:17.040 concern is as commissioner smith brought up with increased traffic off of bonnie bray you know right 02:17:17.040 --> 02:17:23.040 now those are not major entrances but if the garage is there they're going to be used more 02:17:24.800 --> 02:17:32.160 as well as as residential home protection um that that i had brought up earlier i just don't know 02:17:32.160 --> 02:17:38.640 if if we can put something in here that gives us a little bit more control over that or if that's 02:17:38.640 --> 02:17:44.000 even appropriate or if that's something that even maybe staff had already discussed so um i would 02:17:44.000 --> 02:17:49.920 love your thoughts on that yeah so the the way the code is worded um there's a list of things that 02:17:49.920 --> 02:17:54.240 very specifically are considered major amendments that have to go before pnz and council and then 02:17:54.240 --> 02:17:59.440 there's a blanket statement that any other change um significant change that the director thinks 02:17:59.440 --> 02:18:05.680 should be reviewed by pnz and council can be can be essentially sent to you all in lieu of being a 02:18:05.680 --> 02:18:11.440 staff approval so something as significant as a five-story parking garage even if it didn't fall 02:18:11.440 --> 02:18:17.120 within the precise details of what it specifies or a major amendment i suspect would be something 02:18:17.120 --> 02:18:24.000 that the director would would see as significant enough to come back yeah okay i'm sorry i was 02:18:24.000 --> 02:18:28.960 even going to say if you want to suggest just to clarify so it's it's clear moving forward even if 02:18:28.960 --> 02:18:34.800 it is 10 years down the line that for purposes of constructing a a standalone five-story parking 02:18:34.800 --> 02:18:42.240 garage would be considered a major amendment right because the way i i read this is if it's in here 02:18:42.240 --> 02:18:48.240 today we're they're not really amending it we're already saying they can build a five 02:18:48.240 --> 02:18:56.960 level parking structure aren't we yes so we're not amending it we're already we're we're putting it 02:18:56.960 --> 02:19:02.880 in there right now well a pd is is twofold so there's the text and then there's the map 02:19:02.880 --> 02:19:09.120 um so the map as it as it's in the pd today is just existing conditions so modifications to that 02:19:09.120 --> 02:19:13.600 map or what would trigger them uh coming back to to establish the things that are written into the 02:19:13.600 --> 02:19:20.000 text okay but yeah i would probably love the text that richard suggested i think would would it would 02:19:20.000 --> 02:19:25.600 make me feel better if it was in there okay the only other thing if i may add chair um and i know 02:19:25.600 --> 02:19:32.000 we had the the question and work session about um a tia being required and and how that's typically 02:19:32.000 --> 02:19:38.880 a tie tied to a um a use or expansion thereof in this instance um there would most likely i 02:19:38.880 --> 02:19:45.680 shouldn't say most like there would be a um a traffic analysis done but more so on access 02:19:45.680 --> 02:19:51.360 and and how uh how that's how that's done not necessarily trips but making sure that um that 02:19:51.360 --> 02:19:56.240 that that is looked at so that could that would be a component of it great thanks for that 02:19:56.240 --> 02:20:01.120 clarification any other questions for hayley do we have any public comment 02:20:02.960 --> 02:20:09.120 great i'm going to go ahead and close the public hearing and uh we can continue discussing or put 02:20:09.120 --> 02:20:18.000 a motion on the table christopher smith um no i'm not going to make a motion i'd actually like to 02:20:18.000 --> 02:20:24.560 uh hear some discussion first according to what margie had said that um if anybody would be no 02:20:24.560 --> 02:20:30.080 thoughts about putting in something that would uh pertain to having that that parking garage come 02:20:30.080 --> 02:20:38.800 back i like your discussion about that before i made a motion uh sure i can jump in there i'm 02:20:38.800 --> 02:20:42.800 not i'm not in favor of adding any more language for a parking garage it's going to be set back 02:20:42.800 --> 02:20:47.760 behind a medical building it's going to be accessed off a primary arterial it's the biggest 02:20:47.760 --> 02:20:53.600 possible street we have in our city it doesn't seem to be a five or ten year timeline on it um 02:20:53.600 --> 02:20:59.200 i'm not going to hold them to their word but even if it's a two-year timeline to build five stories 02:20:59.200 --> 02:21:06.160 the entire corridor is 40 and 50 feet tall as it is um so i don't i'm not i'm not too inclined 02:21:06.160 --> 02:21:09.840 to add additional conditions that they come back for a parking garage i don't know what we would 02:21:09.840 --> 02:21:14.640 do at that time except to make sure the entrance is wide enough and maybe try to put some aesthetics 02:21:14.640 --> 02:21:20.560 around what material they can use um but it seems like for the service of our community our county 02:21:20.560 --> 02:21:27.680 especially the northern uh residents of our county if we have a growing hospital and we can have a 02:21:27.680 --> 02:21:33.840 staff parking to provide easy access to serve our community i just i just i generally out of principle 02:21:33.840 --> 02:21:36.880 don't have an issue with the parking garage going there especially if i look at the city 02:21:36.880 --> 02:21:43.200 where other parking garages are there's a parking garage on on highland that is 60 feet tall off a 02:21:43.200 --> 02:21:49.760 one-way street um so i just i just don't have any issue uh to commissioner smith to your point to 02:21:49.760 --> 02:21:54.880 hop in there i just don't have any issue with um allowing a parking garage on this approval 02:21:54.880 --> 02:22:01.600 but christopher i think you had your hand up oh thank you chair i i echo what you just said 02:22:01.600 --> 02:22:07.680 um i have no i i have no desire to put any conditions on them i mean this is a thriving 02:22:07.680 --> 02:22:14.400 medical center and i spent 20 years working in medical schools hospitals medical centers all over 02:22:14.400 --> 02:22:20.400 north america and there's nothing out of the ordinary here i'm thankful because i live in west 02:22:20.400 --> 02:22:25.120 that this is where i'm going to go if i have a heart attack and stroke and i want a thriving 02:22:25.120 --> 02:22:32.160 hospital area you know there was a time here when these people didn't do cardiac catheterizations 02:22:32.160 --> 02:22:39.120 they got a thriving cath lab you know and various other things but i mean i'm thankful to have it 02:22:39.120 --> 02:22:46.000 here and i don't see any point in giving them any further conditions not putting placing any 02:22:46.000 --> 02:22:50.320 further conditions on thank you mr cole uh christopher i also want to go to christopher beck real 02:22:50.320 --> 02:22:57.040 fast than than to you christopher yeah thank you chair uh mine's short uh i actually kind of favor 02:22:57.040 --> 02:23:03.040 the parking garage um because it'll it takes the pressure off of the the pervious and impervious 02:23:03.040 --> 02:23:08.640 surfaces and the other reason that we changed our code to to have the new standard that makes the 02:23:08.640 --> 02:23:15.120 hospital not conforming they don't have to actually be i mean they're not going to change but we don't 02:23:15.120 --> 02:23:20.560 have to make them be even worse in terms of the reason we put those ordinances in place so i am 02:23:20.560 --> 02:23:26.800 actually kind of in favor of the parking garage thanks chair uh commissioner alice thank you 02:23:26.800 --> 02:23:31.360 chair i feel like i was painted in a bad light and i just would like to clear it up i am not against 02:23:31.360 --> 02:23:38.240 this at all this all makes sense i was simply trying to ensure that if they were going to build 02:23:38.240 --> 02:23:44.080 a five-story parking garage that we as the city could at least see what that looked like since 02:23:44.080 --> 02:23:51.120 there are again single-family homes right there i'm not against the parking garage i simply wanted 02:23:51.120 --> 02:23:56.160 to ensure as richard said that it would come before us and be considered a major amendment 02:23:56.160 --> 02:24:01.600 when it was built that's all i wanted in there that was just for for neighborhood protection is 02:24:01.600 --> 02:24:08.000 all i am not against this facility it is fantastic and it should be expanded and improved and i'm happy 02:24:09.120 --> 02:24:14.240 and in support of it commissioner alice i appreciate the clarification one one follow-up 02:24:14.240 --> 02:24:21.680 to that are you okay with the city staff and director of development to use that position's 02:24:21.680 --> 02:24:27.520 discretion to bring it before pnz it seems like that's already codified that way or are you wanting 02:24:27.520 --> 02:24:34.400 a additional language that it must be brought back and heard and then the pnz could deny 02:24:34.400 --> 02:24:40.480 or prove a parking garage in the future no i would be okay with staff looking at it the way i read 02:24:40.480 --> 02:24:46.560 this the to me it looks like we're giving them approval to build a five-story garage or five 02:24:46.560 --> 02:24:54.400 level garage wherever they would like to build it and perhaps that's not the case um so i would 02:24:54.400 --> 02:24:59.200 richard can you clarify maybe my understanding is incorrect if if they elect to proceed with the 02:24:59.200 --> 02:25:03.840 parking garage sometime in the future that would be reviewed by the director and they would have the 02:25:03.840 --> 02:25:10.320 discretion to bring that to a commission or approve or deny it themselves can you it would it would go 02:25:10.320 --> 02:25:14.720 through a process of whether it be a determination would need to be made whether it's considered a 02:25:14.720 --> 02:25:20.640 minor or major i'm given where they are with parking now i'm guessing if they were to build a 02:25:20.640 --> 02:25:27.600 five-level garage there would be some additional growth with the hot with the hospital we would 02:25:27.600 --> 02:25:34.000 just have to look at at what they're what and how they're expanding if it's tied to that it would 02:25:34.000 --> 02:25:38.160 just be a judgment call depending what it is that they're they're proposing and how they're proposing 02:25:38.160 --> 02:25:44.320 it but but they to commissioner alice's specific point would they have by right ability to go build 02:25:44.320 --> 02:25:51.600 a garage or they would actually be reviewed prior to approval being granted it if it's a minor 02:25:51.600 --> 02:25:56.720 amendment no it would just be it would be a staff approval um one of the things i think we need to 02:25:56.720 --> 02:26:05.440 look at too is um you know when that may happen and you know people make different interpretations 02:26:05.440 --> 02:26:10.000 all all the time um but i think if you if you just look at the code and definition of building 02:26:10.000 --> 02:26:14.720 i don't know that a parking garage would fall under the definition of building under our code 02:26:14.720 --> 02:26:22.160 it's not a a structure for habitation um but again it would all depend um if it's connected to the 02:26:22.160 --> 02:26:31.120 building um if it's a stand there's a multitude of of of scenarios okay uh commissioner smith 02:26:31.120 --> 02:26:36.960 what i get for trying to just stem out maybe a friendly amendment later on down the road with 02:26:36.960 --> 02:26:43.200 the with a motion but i'm gonna go make a motion for approval um as uh as recommended uh commissioner 02:26:43.200 --> 02:26:48.960 anderson i second the motion okay we have a first and a second for approval as uh staff 02:26:48.960 --> 02:26:57.200 has outlined uh any discussion on this item commissioner ellis yes since i don't have any 02:26:57.200 --> 02:27:01.440 support i will give up what i was trying to get accomplished but i will say for the record that i 02:27:01.440 --> 02:27:07.920 do hope that um we keep tabs on that as a staff when it does come time that they are building a 02:27:07.920 --> 02:27:12.480 garage thank you commissioner ellis any other discussion 02:27:15.040 --> 02:27:21.040 seeing none we'll call for a vote via roll call commissioner cole aye commissioner prunetta 02:27:21.040 --> 02:27:28.480 aye commissioner anderson aye commissioner beck aye commissioner ellis 02:27:28.480 --> 02:27:37.520 aye commissioner smith aye chair is also an aye motion carries seven zero next item of business 02:27:37.520 --> 02:27:44.400 is item 4c s20-0003 i'm going to go ahead and open the public hearing but staff is requesting 02:27:44.400 --> 02:27:49.760 this item be postponed to a date certain of november 4th chair will ask for a motion to 02:27:49.760 --> 02:27:54.960 that end commissioner smith make a motion to uh postpone to the date certain number fourth 02:27:54.960 --> 02:27:59.600 we have a first commissioner prunetta i'll second the motion we have a first and a second for a 02:27:59.600 --> 02:28:06.000 postponement to a date certain of november 4th any discussion on this seeing none i'll call for a vote 02:28:06.000 --> 02:28:13.040 via roll call commissioner cole aye commissioner prunetta aye commissioner anderson aye commissioner 02:28:13.040 --> 02:28:20.800 beck aye commissioner ellis aye commissioner smith aye chair is also an aye motion carries seven 02:28:20.800 --> 02:28:29.360 zero the next item of business is item 4d aesa 20-0005a i will open the public hearing and staff 02:28:29.360 --> 02:28:34.080 is also requesting that this item is postponed to a date certain of november 4th commissioner prunetta 02:28:34.080 --> 02:28:40.160 uh motion to postpone to a date certain of november 4th we have a first commissioner smith 02:28:40.160 --> 02:28:47.520 second a first and a second any discussion on this commissioner beck it just occurred to me 02:28:47.520 --> 02:28:53.920 november 4th uh everybody be on your best behavior on november 4th when we rediscussed this so thank 02:28:53.920 --> 02:29:01.120 you it'll be calm commissioner beck it'll be calm thanks jim like the eye of the hurricane 02:29:01.120 --> 02:29:08.800 um he is non-partisan by the way that's right aren't we all uh we will uh vote via roll call 02:29:08.800 --> 02:29:18.400 commissioner cole aye commissioner prunetta aye commissioner anderson aye commissioner beck 02:29:18.400 --> 02:29:26.480 aye commissioner ellis aye commissioner smith aye chair is also an aye motion carries seven zero 02:29:26.480 --> 02:29:30.000 the next and final item on our agenda this evening is the planning and zoning 02:29:30.000 --> 02:29:35.680 matrix i will turn the floor over to richard for any updates and then to the dais for discussion 02:29:38.800 --> 02:29:46.960 you're muted richard sorry about that yep uh keeping with the uh um november 4th meeting date 02:29:46.960 --> 02:29:53.920 we will have a robust uh agenda um we're we're still working through just a number of plats 02:29:53.920 --> 02:29:58.880 obviously um rezonings and then the items that were continued but in addition we have two big 02:29:58.880 --> 02:30:04.080 work session items um the mobility plan which i think we'll still be able to have at that meeting 02:30:05.520 --> 02:30:12.240 as well as parks is working through their update uh to the park dedication ordinance as well as the 02:30:12.240 --> 02:30:18.240 park development fee ordinance um so gary we'll have gary back again at our next meeting uh to 02:30:18.240 --> 02:30:25.680 give to give an update on how that works um before i go into i guess council council action if 02:30:25.680 --> 02:30:33.200 if there are any questions yeah commissioner beck thank you chair hey richard um is this is this 02:30:33.200 --> 02:30:40.080 mobility plan the the final draft or uh the the public has no more opportunity for feedback 02:30:40.080 --> 02:30:46.000 my understanding is the public the public will have opportunity to provide feedback up through 02:30:46.000 --> 02:30:51.600 the you know up until council adopts it um but but this is just giving that what what they've 02:30:51.600 --> 02:30:57.120 done to date what they're continuing what they will continue to do and then how the process 02:30:57.120 --> 02:31:04.400 works for updating updating the mobility plan okay uh yeah it's just i i don't know about the rest 02:31:04.400 --> 02:31:10.560 of the commissioners but i'm getting a lot of citizen feedback on elements of the mobility plan 02:31:10.560 --> 02:31:18.000 so thanks richard yep all right richard council updates just just quickly um at last night's 02:31:18.000 --> 02:31:23.840 meeting um the alternative esos for ryan high school and eagle cove were both were both approved 02:31:24.560 --> 02:31:30.640 as was the text amendment for the tattoo and piercing uh parlors in mn um the other public 02:31:30.640 --> 02:31:36.720 hearing that we had on the mockingbird residential um if you if you recall uh it was a vote of seven 02:31:36.720 --> 02:31:43.600 zero to deny um the applicant had added some additional uh conditions uh at at the meeting 02:31:43.600 --> 02:31:50.400 um unbeknownst to staff there was some concern that council had uh with those conditions being 02:31:50.400 --> 02:31:57.200 brought forward to them without the knowledge of p and z and so it was voted that they remand that 02:31:57.200 --> 02:32:02.960 back to p and z for consideration so that will be coming back on the 18th of november 02:32:02.960 --> 02:32:10.480 it will be an individual consideration item but one of the other directions that council gave was 02:32:10.480 --> 02:32:15.680 to go ahead and notice it as it as it would be public hearing so we will we will meet those 02:32:15.680 --> 02:32:20.480 requirements that's why it's coming back on on on 11 18 but wanted to let you know that that will 02:32:20.480 --> 02:32:27.840 be back back in front of you great christian alice thank you chair so richard on that note 02:32:27.840 --> 02:32:33.920 did staff review or you're going to review the conditions i guess we will review the other the 02:32:33.920 --> 02:32:38.000 conditions um i i think in addition they probably need to have another neighborhood meeting with 02:32:38.000 --> 02:32:43.440 with the conditions that they were adding it was a limitation on the number of lots um that that 02:32:43.440 --> 02:32:48.800 could technically be built there and so um we'll see how that goes i guess on the 18th 02:32:48.800 --> 02:32:56.080 okay thank you great thank you for those updates any other items that need to be 02:32:56.080 --> 02:32:57.680 added to the matrix or clarified 02:32:57.680 --> 02:33:06.880 okay great seeing none i'll go ahead and close the meeting at 7 11 thank you everyone thank you