1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,360 We have determined that a quorum has been met. 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,260 The downtown Denton tax increment financing reinvestment zone number one board of the 3 00:00:13,260 --> 00:00:20,060 city of Denton, Texas will now convene in a regular meeting at 9.02 a.m. this Wednesday, 4 00:00:20,060 --> 00:00:22,320 the 21st day of October 2020. 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,400 Our first order of business is 1A, consider approval and/or corrections of the meeting 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:32,320 minutes from the September 23rd, 2020 downtown Denton TIF reinvestment zone number one board 7 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:33,800 of the city of Denton, Texas. 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:43,700 Are there any corrections to the minutes as distributed? 9 00:00:43,700 --> 00:00:48,120 Do we have a motion? 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:49,120 All motion. 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,360 Do we have a second? 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:52,360 Then motion. 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,360 Do we have a second? 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:56,360 No. 15 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:57,360 Paul is the second. 16 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,560 It is moved and seconded that we approve the minutes as presented. 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,040 I will call by name. 18 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,000 Please unmute and give us a word of approval or disapproval. 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,000 Paul? 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,000 Aye. 21 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,000 Ben? 22 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,000 Aye. 23 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,000 Gerard? 24 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,000 Aye. 25 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Melissa? 26 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,000 Aye. 27 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,600 The motion passes by unanimous vote. 28 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:30,160 The second item of business is to receive a report and hold a discussion, give staff 29 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,480 direction regarding the downtown Denton TIF reinvestment zone number one study and analysis 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,400 being conducted by TXP Inc. 31 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,680 I think I understand that we're going to go through this pretty quickly because it's a 32 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:51,600 pre-visit of our last meeting and we'll just further discussions that we were started last 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:52,600 meeting. 34 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:53,600 Yes. 35 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,920 So Travis James with TXP is here with us again to present. 36 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,600 This will be new to me. 37 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:01,920 I missed the last meeting. 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,480 So Travis has kindly agreed to go through the presentation. 39 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:11,640 Just quickly a refresher of where we left off and then we'll just lead the board in 40 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:14,060 a discussion on items. 41 00:02:14,060 --> 00:02:16,320 So I'll just turn it over to Travis. 42 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,320 Great. 43 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:18,320 Thank you, Jessica. 44 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:19,320 Thank you, Chair. 45 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,080 I will spend about five or 10 minutes going through this and people can jump in and ask 46 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:24,080 questions. 47 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,840 Nothing has changed in the slide deck. 48 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,840 Where we ended last time was trying to get recommendations from this group about what 49 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,760 projects to fund. 50 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,480 So we'll get back to that point pretty quickly and I'll stop talking. 51 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:43,480 Next slide. 52 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,200 We will -- I was retained at the end, I can't believe, about a year ago at the end of 2019. 53 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:53,360 As I said last time, when I was brought in, the focus was on PEC 4, Phase 3 and 4. 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:59,520 Things have changed since then based on the analysis, which is why we are here today and 55 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,320 talk about some broader uses of the TURRS, whether Phase 3 and 4 make sense or we should 56 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,360 look at some other things. 57 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,480 Next slide. 58 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:13,600 I think you all know this TURRS terminates in 2041. 59 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,480 This TURRS is for 30 years. 60 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:22,080 It has a decreasing contribution by the city of Denton, its only participant, and has about 61 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,040 a $25 million cap. 62 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,520 A couple million dollars have been raised and spent to date. 63 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:34,240 There's about $20 to $21 million left that could come in over the next 30 years before 64 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,320 it hits the cap or has to terminate. 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,680 Next slide. 66 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,560 This is just the scope of work and what we've worked on in the past. 67 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,880 We're on Task 6 and 7. 68 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,360 Next slide. 69 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:54,880 To remind everybody, this is the TURRS boundary that was created. 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,000 When the TURRS was created, it can be modified as we talked about at the last meeting, but 71 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,620 this is the current boundaries of the downtown TURRS. 72 00:04:02,620 --> 00:04:07,520 On the next slide, as I reminded everybody, when you created the TURRS, you used a different 73 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,880 consulting company who looked at what they called catalytic areas and they identified 74 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:19,960 five of them, labeled them A through E. Not a lot of activity has happened in any of the 75 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:20,960 zones. 76 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:26,080 In area A, you've had the eastern departments near the transit station, that's the closest, 77 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:32,240 but not a lot of the development that was projected in the catalytic plan or the catalytic 78 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:33,400 areas has occurred. 79 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:39,560 On the next slide, you'll see that, based on that original analysis, they projected 80 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:49,560 about $126 million of new catalytic project activity could take place within those areas. 81 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,280 You see the timeline there on the far right. 82 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:55,840 Some of them, like D, were getting into that early timeline. 83 00:04:55,840 --> 00:05:01,080 Other of those were sort of halfway through or at the beginning phases of when we should 84 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,120 have seen things occur. 85 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,960 On the next slide. 86 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,820 As I said before, the overall TURRS revenue has been consistent despite the fact that 87 00:05:11,820 --> 00:05:14,680 there hasn't been a lot of catalytic projects. 88 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,200 About $3 million has been collected to date. 89 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:23,120 That means there's about $21 million that can come in before we hit the cap. 90 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:29,280 That last bullet point is important that if no new development occurs and we see 2.5% 91 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:34,600 appreciation, the TURRS will hit the cap right around year 30. 92 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:40,880 So any new development that occurs will mean we'll hit that cap sooner than 2030. 93 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:47,520 On the next slide, the TURRS baseline back in 2010 was about $80 million. 94 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:54,940 The TURRS is about $225 million today, so it's grown about $150 million. 95 00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:59,400 According to the appraisal district, about $28 million has been new construction. 96 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,120 $124 million has been appreciation. 97 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,120 So if you think back a few slides ago, there was over $100 million worth of catalytic activity 98 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,600 that was projected, about $28 million has occurred. 99 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,160 On the next slide. 100 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,500 This is just your annual revenue stream. 101 00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:25,200 Going forward, I think thinking about $900 to $1 million a year of revenue is an appropriate 102 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:26,200 ballpark. 103 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,080 I think the only expenditure that you have on the books every year is going to be I think 104 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:36,240 about $100,000 for the downtown grant program that was shifted over as a TURRS expense. 105 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,640 Next slide. 106 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,480 As I said, if we just -- this is a cumulative chart. 107 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:47,540 I think we're going to hit the cap, assuming no new development, 2.5% appreciation. 108 00:06:47,540 --> 00:06:51,400 About 2038 to 2040. 109 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,100 Next slide. 110 00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:57,560 So this is the stakeholder input that we talked about last time, and I'll go through this 111 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,640 quickly unless somebody wants to stop me. 112 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,760 There was not consensus on a downtown parking or parking garage. 113 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,480 Businesses said they're obviously struggling with COVID, so if we think about a new big 114 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,240 infrastructure project, think about when you would start it so it doesn't impact their 115 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,260 businesses even more than they're already being impacted. 116 00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:21,000 Some smaller projects focused on lighting and sidewalk improvements may be more appropriate 117 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,000 in the short term. 118 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,280 That's what we heard from the tenants and the retailers. 119 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,160 Drainage improvement projects are necessary to create development opportunities in the 120 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:34,960 future, but the new projects may not occur in the short term. 121 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:40,880 On the next slide, I'm going back. 122 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,760 Downtown needs more daytime office employment and traffic to balance the nighttime activity. 123 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,840 Tourist rents aren't high enough to justify new construction. 124 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,920 That's where you may need to use an incentive to step in, disperse some of that type of 125 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:54,640 activity. 126 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,280 Developers told us that they'd like to use tourist funds to incentivize larger economic 127 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,100 development projects. 128 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:06,400 Think about another funding source for infrastructure, street sidewalks, lighting. 129 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,960 Existing businesses said they'd like to use the tourist funds on programs to improve building 130 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,760 improvements in the facade program. 131 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,440 So two different perspectives based on your individual needs. 132 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,760 And then I think a theme throughout the past year has been downtown lacks an overall vision, 133 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,000 so it makes it hard to prioritize how to spend tourist money. 134 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:32,840 So it's not clear on what the vision is or how the money should be prioritized. 135 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:39,640 On the next slide, just as a reminder that as the tourist plan exists today, these are 136 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:45,200 the kinds of things you can spend money on without having to amend the project plan. 137 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:50,200 So parking, transportation, streets, grants, utility, drainage, improvements, the bulk 138 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:57,120 of what we're talking about are eligible expenditures as the tourist is set up today. 139 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,120 On the next slide. 140 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,000 All right. 141 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,840 So this is a slightly confusing graphic and this is where we ended last time. 142 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,840 What you see in red is the existing tourists. 143 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:16,440 The PEC4 phase three and four you see in red and blue, they are for the most part outside 144 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,200 of the tourist boundary. 145 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,220 So if you wanted to use tourist funding to fund that entire project, you would need to 146 00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:25,880 expand the tourist boundary. 147 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:32,440 And you see in the black and white hashed line, that was one attempt we had come up 148 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:38,200 with on how it made sense potentially to expand the boundary if you wanted to fund phases 149 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:39,920 three and four. 150 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:45,320 The purple parcels, those are the parcels that get removed out of the flood plain. 151 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,240 So that's part of how we drew the boundary to pick up the parcels where development 152 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,440 would likely occur. 153 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,600 So as a refresher, the red is the existing tourist boundary. 154 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:00,320 The black and white with the purple parcels is how I would recommend if you wanted to 155 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,680 fund phases three and four out of the tours, you may want to expand the tours. 156 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:11,480 One to make the project eligible, and two to pick up the parcels that would be impacted. 157 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,800 On the next slide, we'll talk about projects that we've talked about. 158 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,600 Go back, sorry, Erica. 159 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:18,840 We'll talk about the new streets. 160 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,500 I think you all know where those are. 161 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:23,340 That was a project that came up for discussion. 162 00:10:23,340 --> 00:10:28,200 We talked about the improvements along Hickory Street, and it might make sense to make those 163 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,320 on oak. 164 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,520 You see oak is outlined there in the pink. 165 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:39,120 And then another type of corridor improvement we talked about with folks were elm and locust. 166 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,480 So maybe we should focus on elm and locust because it's a long corridor. 167 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:49,200 Make those improvements, and it brings a lot of parcels into play. 168 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:57,220 So on the next slide, we had come up with sort of a ballpark for ROI. 169 00:10:57,220 --> 00:11:02,080 So pack four, phase three and four, it's about a $15 million project. 170 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:08,640 If you funded it out of the TURS, the combination of the $15 million cost plus interest would 171 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,600 consume the $20 to $21 million left. 172 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,480 So if the city went out and issued debt, funded it by the TURS, the numbers look good that 173 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:22,640 it could be paid for by the TURS, but it would use up all of the remaining funding. 174 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:29,240 The city did an analysis just on the PEC four parcels, and they found that if you pulled 175 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:35,500 those parcels out of the floodplain, property values could increase by $15 to $20 million. 176 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:40,040 So if you looked at comparable properties and development that were outside of the floodplain, 177 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,160 and then you looked at those properties, they projected about $20 million in new value over 178 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:51,920 time, and that translates to about $100,000 a year in new city property tax revenue based 179 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,560 on the current property tax rate. 180 00:11:55,560 --> 00:12:02,480 Another project is the Mew Streets, that's about a $7 million project. 181 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:09,600 Has a short term impact, it would likely increase traffic and activities to existing retailers. 182 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:14,060 I don't know that it would have a dramatic increase on property values. 183 00:12:14,060 --> 00:12:18,860 We talked about the corridor improvements, Hickory Street was about $7 to $8 million 184 00:12:18,860 --> 00:12:20,760 for half a mile. 185 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:26,320 Down Hickory Street over the past five to six years, those properties have increased 186 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,600 in value by about $50 million. 187 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:35,480 Now it's hard for the but for and draw a direct link between the improvements and the value 188 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:42,240 increase, but about $50 million in new value, which translates to about $300,000 a year 189 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,040 in property tax. 190 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:49,300 We talked about developer incentives last time, those would vary by project. 191 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:56,200 It's likely those would cost about $5 to $10 million per project. 192 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,640 That's a specific ask by the developer. 193 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:07,120 Another thing we talked about was expanding the grant program, and I just put $50 to $100,000, 194 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:13,480 would have an immediate impact, would vary by project, would likely not generate a tremendous 195 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,720 amount of new property value for the tours. 196 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,560 And the last item was general maintenance, folks said, hey, we need to keep more money 197 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:26,520 into downtown to keep things clean and maintenance and those kinds of things. 198 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,140 So I know I went through that relatively quickly. 199 00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:34,320 So these were the kinds of projects that we were talking about last time, the cost. 200 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:41,300 And on the next slide, this is where we ended and we're having the discussion about should 201 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:46,920 the tours issue debt to pay for PAC four phases three and four, or should the tours funds 202 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,160 be used for strategic corridor improvements? 203 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:57,080 How should the city resolve the request for developer incentives and expanded grant programs? 204 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:04,120 And then last, under what conditions might the city extend the life of the tours and 205 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,560 or exceed the $24 million revenue cap? 206 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:15,920 So with that share, I'll stop and try to get input maybe from this group about how the 207 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:22,160 money should be spent and what kind of recommendations should be made to city council. 208 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:31,160 Say I'm, I'm leaning again towards the, the drainage project. 209 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:40,440 I think that has the biggest impact for downtown overall, but it scares me to think that we 210 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:47,160 would, we would kill this fund with that. 211 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:55,160 I guess mine, mine hinges on those, those questions of would council be willing to, 212 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,640 to extend the timeline for the tours and extend the cap. 213 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:04,720 And I think, I think with that, that it might be nice if we can go back and look at the 214 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,040 funding for PAC one through four. 215 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:14,640 And when that started to be looked at by the city, I know that's kind of far back and we 216 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,400 didn't talk about this last time. 217 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,880 It's more, I seem to remember that we had already funded one through four and then we 218 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,600 ran out of money and had to pull it back to one through two. 219 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,700 Can anybody speak to that? 220 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:35,840 I mean, I do, I can, I know it was, it was passed in the, in a previous bond package 221 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:42,420 and then just like a lot of things, it just drags out too long to the point where costs 222 00:15:42,420 --> 00:15:45,920 creep up, you know, faster than we get to them. 223 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:52,100 And, you know, most of the stuff that we were slated for downtown either couldn't get funded 224 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:57,800 like this or hasn't been funded like quiet zones for whatever reason, those sorts of 225 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:58,800 things. 226 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:05,200 And part of the conversation last time was there was some, some grant funding, potential 227 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,240 EDA funding that the city was going after. 228 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,960 And I think Erica remind me, I think you said there wouldn't be a decision on that for a 229 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:12,960 year or two. 230 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:13,960 Yeah. 231 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:14,960 It's competitive. 232 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:20,680 So it would take some time. 233 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:26,600 What are the chances of this being to Ben's point really is instead of a hundred percent 234 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:33,960 funded out of TERS, that it is a shared cost with TERS having some percentage, the expanded 235 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:38,760 TERS area that we're considering having some percentages, some percentage in the city having 236 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:44,520 some percentage is just something that again, to Ben's point, it would be difficult to just 237 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,600 say we created the TERS. 238 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:52,320 We're just going to get some of our town out of the flood zone through this TERS, but not 239 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,280 what it was intended for by any stretch. 240 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:03,800 Does anybody have any other input maybe just regarding with regard to the PEC one through 241 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:05,880 or two through four, three through three. 242 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:13,960 Well, you know, one thing that Todd has said to me, cause I'm, I'm, I'm a very strong advocate 243 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:21,160 for that and I share the sense that that is the biggest impact, but he's been reluctant 244 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:30,920 to put non-TERS funds into it because the value, the increase in property value and 245 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,860 therefore the increase in tax revenue will all go into the TERS. 246 00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:36,640 So that that's a problem. 247 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,640 That's also an opportunity. 248 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:46,080 You know, I think if there's a solid plan that there would be an openness to, you know, 249 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:52,780 extending the footprint, extending the timeline, you know, if it all hangs together, you know, 250 00:17:52,780 --> 00:17:58,720 not just like, please give us more, but here's a solid plan that if you do this and you do 251 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:06,520 that, then we'll get to those things and, you know, and here's what the result will 252 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:07,520 be. 253 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:13,400 Is it my understanding though, too, that, I mean, if TERS is funding that we have to 254 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,960 expand the TERS, right? 255 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,680 You would have to expand, but legally you'd have to expand and I don't know if Erica can 256 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:27,200 pull up the map again, but you'd have to at least expand it to pick up the physical footprint. 257 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:32,000 I would recommend that you pick up those parcels that are in purple because those, that's what 258 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,560 you're taking out of the floodplain where you would generate the increment. 259 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,080 I think it was about two slides back. 260 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:48,480 We're working on it, but while we were, yes, you would have to expand the boundary legally 261 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:57,040 to pay for all projects have to be within the physical footprint. 262 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:02,280 So we looked up what was approved in the bond program in the 2014 bond program and it only 263 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:08,200 included phase two of PEC three and four, so PEC four phases three and four were not 264 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,040 included in that bond program. 265 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,720 Wait, can you repeat that please? 266 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:20,360 So off camera is our finance director, Cassie Ogden, and she pulled up the propositions for 267 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:25,200 and the projects that were listed under the 2014 bond program and it only included phase 268 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,560 two of PEC four. 269 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,880 Yeah, I don't recall that being the case, but okay. 270 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:41,000 Well we had, I think, so we have like two different PEC projects, and I think PEC one 271 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,840 had one through four and PEC two had five through eight. 272 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:46,840 That's correct. 273 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,520 There are multiple ones that have PEC in front of them. 274 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,840 They're the different tributaries for Pocon Creek. 275 00:19:52,840 --> 00:20:01,640 One being south of downtown and two being north of downtown. 276 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:08,320 As you see that map, thank you Erica, the purple parcels are the parcels that get taken 277 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,120 out of the floodplain and that are impacted by the project. 278 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:18,200 So I would definitely expand the boundary to pick up those parcels and I think we went 279 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:23,960 down to eagle just because it made it sort of clean and simple, and so we followed the 280 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,200 street network. 281 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:33,620 So that black and white bubbled area would need to, you know, you need to expand the 282 00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:39,200 turrets roughly, and so the turrets down in the weeds would have two base values. 283 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,520 The turrets in red has the old base value and if council chose to expand it, you know, 284 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:52,400 this would have a 2021 or 2020 base value whenever they made that decision to expand 285 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:53,400 it. 286 00:20:53,400 --> 00:21:03,480 If we were going to do that and use a majority of our funding for fixing drainage, why stop 287 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,480 on the south side? 288 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:10,560 I guess my question would be for Paul, you know, if you're an advocate for this use and 289 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:19,480 would be someone advocating for council, I guess Gerard as well, why stop there? 290 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:25,280 It's an enormous task to fix these problems and Gerard knows we've looked at some other 291 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,880 areas north of downtown around Bell where there's still an opportunity for redevelopment. 292 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:37,880 If this is a way to fund the fix to the problem, why, if we're going to go through this process 293 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,560 and amend boundaries, why stop with that little section you're referring to? 294 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:49,400 I mean, since you asked me first, I don't disagree with that. 295 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:56,800 I think it's sort of, well, okay, you're saying, you know, and do the whole thing. 296 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:57,800 Yeah, I don't know. 297 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,360 I'll be open to looking at that. 298 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:06,920 I mean, if I had to pick where to go first, it's just sort of like developed but underdeveloped 299 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:16,240 now and adjacent, so it looks like lower hanging fruit, but I don't disagree with you. 300 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:22,120 I think there's as many opportunities north of downtown that probably because the area, 301 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:28,080 to me, feels and looks better, would encourage better redevelopment, if you follow me. 302 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:34,400 There are parcels that are closer to TWU, there are parcels that are closer to nicer 303 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:40,200 neighborhoods that, you know, and maybe fewer use car lots that, you know, a developer might 304 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,080 come in and look, hey, all right, I see something here, whereas they feel like they're taking 305 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,520 a bigger chance on the south side, you know, so. 306 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,520 I think ultimately the policy question, Alex, for is exactly what you're saying for City 307 00:22:54,520 --> 00:23:02,080 Council is any expansion of the TERS will directly impact the general fund, and so that's 308 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,720 ultimately the question that will be posed to City Council, is that an expansion of the 309 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,360 boundaries and the capturing of tax dollars that were going to the general fund will now 310 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:14,880 be captured by the TERS, and so that is the base of the question. 311 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,480 That is a very good point. 312 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:24,680 And I would also like to add, just because I'm knowledgeable about the FEMA tax that 313 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,360 anybody who owns property in the flood plain or plans to develop property in the flood 314 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:37,200 plain, they, you know, the development can't happen within the flood plain because of FEMA 315 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:43,800 restrictions and the cost of FEMA insurance for any owner that carries a mortgage is exorbitant 316 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,320 and doesn't essentially go back into the city. 317 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:53,520 It goes somewhere else, and so I think that's a bit of a shame that without fixing those 318 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,360 things that there's money lost. 319 00:23:56,360 --> 00:24:00,520 It's not considered the ROI we're talking about today, but it is return on investment 320 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,800 within the community. 321 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:09,640 You know, I thought that Alex was referring to flood plain north of the square. 322 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:10,640 I am. 323 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:11,640 I am. 324 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,640 Oh, you are. 325 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,640 Okay. 326 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:14,640 I am. 327 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,040 So the floodways and floodplains, the chambers, you know, the chamber and city's building, 328 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,520 for instance, I know there's a discussion of doing something with that property, but 329 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,480 I look at that and think there's nothing to do with that property other than just use 330 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,960 it maybe the way it is, right? 331 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,720 You know, there's the property around Bell and McKinney. 332 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,360 All that stuff right there could be, you know, repurposed. 333 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:42,880 And so again, I get the point about general fund, but I just see, if you're only talking 334 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,560 about the increment and maybe it's, and this is a legal issue, but if you create a separate 335 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:55,880 TURZ zone on the north side and there's no question that it's only to be used for drainage 336 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:56,880 improvements, right? 337 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,000 I just don't, I just know how long these things take and how much dialogue and discussion 338 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,240 and consultants and engineers get involved for us to do this. 339 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,760 We'll be looking up at another 10 years and saying we should have done the north side 340 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:10,760 too. 341 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,400 I don't disagree. 342 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,680 I think that's, it's, it's worth, it's worth looking at. 343 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:21,440 You know what really the key is to this whole thing and certainly to getting buy-in it's 344 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:32,420 slide 13, the last comment, there isn't, there isn't a vision for downtown and that makes 345 00:25:32,420 --> 00:25:34,240 it difficult to prioritize. 346 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,920 And it really, if I had to put our energy somewhere, it would be, and maybe that's, 347 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,640 it's all better now, but it's like, really you need, you need the picture, you know, 348 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,920 you need the artists rendering of what this all ultimately looks like and the people can 349 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:55,600 buy into that includes, I mean, you may just see lots with dollar signs on them, you know? 350 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,440 No, I certainly have vision, Paul. 351 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,720 I mean, I've been, I'm not saying you don't, I'm saying, I'm saying it's, you can go from 352 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:12,800 just that, but the broader, you know, stakeholders, including voters, I think they would, they 353 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,920 want to see what is it we're trying to create. 354 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:20,920 I mean, drainage is about the least sexy thing you can say, but you know, people want to 355 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,400 know are there going to be public spaces in it? 356 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,040 Is it going to be like Sundance square? 357 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:31,040 Is it going to be, you know, a place where there's going to be live, work, play place? 358 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:36,200 Kind of like that area around Stoke, you know, what, what are we trying to make? 359 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,880 And I think, I think if we craft that there's going to be, it's a lot easier to make the 360 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,880 money decisions. 361 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:43,880 You know? 362 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:44,880 Yeah. 363 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:45,880 That's hard to do, Paul. 364 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,680 I guess I start, you know, people like myself start to get burnt out after having been here 365 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:58,080 for, you know, almost 20 years and have sat through so many dang visioning sessions that 366 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:03,120 never seem to be carried forth, whether it be a change in council or a change in city 367 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:08,520 management, you know, and so something just takes priority and everybody gets all their, 368 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,960 all their priorities behind things like raise a ranch for the last 15 years. 369 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,440 And, you know, what has that gotten us? 370 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:21,320 We already had a crown jewel in our city and it, you know, rather than trying to recreate 371 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:28,360 and put all these, these economic efforts into, you know, making a place, you know, 372 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:34,280 we could have it and can still, someone just has to lead the vision. 373 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,960 And I think the, you know, you and I've had this conversation, drainage can be more than 374 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,060 just drainage. 375 00:27:40,060 --> 00:27:45,040 It's unfortunate that we're, we're going to go spend millions of dollars on concrete boxes 376 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,680 when we could have made it a drainage improvement slash park, you know, everyone's probably 377 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,200 heard me beat this dead horse. 378 00:27:53,200 --> 00:28:00,040 Drainage improvements can be economic benefits and they can be parks, right? 379 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,040 There's plenty of pictures. 380 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,560 I can just go grab some images of, of Riverwalk type projects, you know, where there's walking 381 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:12,200 paths next to these, next to these underground boxes, you know, and so there's your, there's 382 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,200 your vision. 383 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,280 You get the parks, people, the trees, the, you know, and just see what happens when people 384 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:24,400 put in linear parks in Dallas, it's a, they put it over a highway, right? 385 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,680 So y'all are saying that we have lack of vision. 386 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,640 How do we fix that? 387 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,220 Do we, do we hire a consultant to lead the entire thing? 388 00:28:33,220 --> 00:28:38,320 Do we hire a full-time downtown guru? 389 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,320 How do you fix that? 390 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,880 And Gerard also has had his hand raised for 20 minutes. 391 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:42,880 Yeah, that's right. 392 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:43,880 We'll just keep talking over. 393 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:44,880 Okay. 394 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:52,920 I'm sorry to interrupt you and Alex, but I do have a question for Ben, right? 395 00:28:52,920 --> 00:29:01,160 I think I'm gonna go way back to your point, really my question and the benefit to hear 396 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:07,240 from this group is, and for those who knew, I don't think council should be here having 397 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,240 a lot of these conversations. 398 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,000 If you're new to the group, we get to talk about it, we'll get the vote on it later. 399 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,180 So I just try to listen. 400 00:29:13,180 --> 00:29:18,720 So I'm just updating the other group that I don't, I think this structure is a little 401 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:19,720 off. 402 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:20,720 I think we should hear from you. 403 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:21,720 We get to vote on it later. 404 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,120 We don't need to be as active in this conversation. 405 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,400 We need to hear you. 406 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,120 And so my question to you, Ben, is what are you hearing and other business owners or people 407 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,960 that are working actively in the downtown area? 408 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:39,760 So you have a place like where Juice Lab was and Legends Diner that is benefiting from, 409 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,360 in theory, from this, in reality too, down the road, from the PEC project, but they're 410 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,160 shut down for a year, if you will, traffic wise. 411 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,440 Alex, you have traffic outside your front door. 412 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:52,440 What are you hearing? 413 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:59,080 So I hear a sidewalk project, it's quick, easy, generates money now for your business. 414 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,760 So Ben, we can make it easy for people to cross the post office, get to your business, 415 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:10,080 frequent your business, enhance the Bermuda Triangle, make it really nice and attractive. 416 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,020 So and those are quick, easy turns. 417 00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:17,360 You saw how beneficial that sidewalk was in front of Denton County Brewery to connect 418 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:18,360 to that parking lot. 419 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:24,080 And so there's opportunities that are quick turnkey, compare and contrast those to me. 420 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,760 So long term, you're shut down for a bit, but the PEC is very to faster, hey, we can 421 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:35,680 get you customers now, hopefully, if we do this right. 422 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:44,960 So to that, direct example, personal benefit to me would be to do the Mew Street project. 423 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,700 I think that that's a great, a great way that would expand the walkability around the square, 424 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:56,360 it would get people off the square, not just circle in the corners. 425 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:02,120 And I think that's great for yeah, the next 12 months for those individual businesses. 426 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,240 I think that's phenomenal. 427 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:11,600 I would say it spike in folks wandering down my way and tell me, tell me if I'm thinking 428 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:18,480 wrong in line with everybody else, though, that this this board is there to make the 429 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:26,680 bigger impact decisions to make, make the decisions that will change the landscape of 430 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,640 downtown overall for the next 30 years. 431 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,320 And that that's why I lean towards something like the PEC that and Alex, you can also tell 432 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,560 me if I'm wrong in thinking about this, because I think I might be off. 433 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:47,000 My thought is, if south of Denton, and to Alex's point, north of Denton, if those are 434 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:55,560 out of the floodplain, we will see more development, we'll see not just more development, more 435 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,200 useful development. 436 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,840 You know, Alex has made the comment about used car lots, nobody wants to put something 437 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,120 in next to that, maybe it's, it's not great. 438 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:13,280 But I would hope that when the land is more, is easier to develop on, it's a nicer property 439 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,000 that's worth developing on, we'll see more of the growth that we want. 440 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,480 And then council can can help guide that for the next 30 years. 441 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,720 They can urge the office space to go in where El Guapo's was or so forth. 442 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,720 Well, I'll give you I'll get out of the way, but I'll give you two, I'll give you two examples, 443 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:39,160 Bishop Arts and West 7, those are instances where you had grassroots kind of just smaller 444 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,040 development that has just blown up. 445 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:48,000 And now, if you look at Bishop Arts, the larger entities, the long term growth came because 446 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,780 of that kind of compartmentalized organic growth. 447 00:32:51,780 --> 00:32:57,400 And I think that is how you get the both you get the short term new street enhancements 448 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:03,480 that then trigger the organic growth that says some giant comes in and says, Bishop Arts 449 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:09,200 isn't what it used to be, because it grew to a point to where larger development started 450 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,940 paying attention, and they swooped in and just bought everything. 451 00:33:12,940 --> 00:33:14,360 We should be so lucky. 452 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,800 We should be so lucky as to actually have gentrification. 453 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,640 I mean, there's talk of it here. 454 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:19,640 It's not happening. 455 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:20,640 I promise. 456 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,440 And you have gentrification, that means you had success. 457 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,280 And then it moves on to somewhere else, which is, in theory, a good thing. 458 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,740 We just get too many people around here get too hung up on the idea of, oh, it's getting 459 00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:33,740 too expensive. 460 00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:35,820 Oh, no, it's really not. 461 00:33:35,820 --> 00:33:37,520 It's not really. 462 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,500 You're living in your own little bubble, go actually study and experience what those cities 463 00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:46,880 are doing and how they're involved in a TIF zone. 464 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,900 And then it works. 465 00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:49,900 It works. 466 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,640 You have to spend the dollars first. 467 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,260 I think, Councilmember, you touched on something we heard from small businesses. 468 00:33:56,260 --> 00:34:02,400 Do you do short-term projects that drive traffic to existing businesses that may not increase 469 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,560 property values, or do you hold off for these larger catalytic projects? 470 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:08,900 Those are sort of what we heard. 471 00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:14,480 Local retailers were very focused on, let's do lighting, let's do sidewalks, let's just 472 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,120 drive more traffic to my business. 473 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,780 Other folks said, nope, infrastructure. 474 00:34:19,780 --> 00:34:25,020 And then we heard from developers, nope, keep the money and use it for developer incentives. 475 00:34:25,020 --> 00:34:29,180 Because remember, a developer incentive will also have to come out of the tourist pot. 476 00:34:29,180 --> 00:34:36,560 So if we do PEC 4, 3, and 4, then we don't have money to incentivize projects. 477 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,280 So that's just something to think about as some additional context. 478 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,460 Those are all constituencies that each say, hey, the thing that would benefit me the most 479 00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:47,080 should be the highest priority I notice. 480 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:53,640 I'm concerned about those constituencies, because what I'm hearing right now is, hey, 481 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,160 the new streets would be great to drive traffic off the square. 482 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,000 And Gerard's saying it would be great to have the organic growth. 483 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:10,200 My understanding since COVID happened is that really some of the barriers for organic growth 484 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:15,320 that didn't have on the new streets is now gone because of things like parklets. 485 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,080 Then zero has happened. 486 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,400 So there has been no organic growth now. 487 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:27,760 We recognize that everybody's scrambling just to keep the businesses open and just do that. 488 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:33,000 But it does seem a little strange to me that that's something that's been talked about 489 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:39,440 over and over again for five plus years, and none of that is occurring when the city has 490 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,560 essentially gotten out of the way and allowed that organic growth to happen. 491 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:51,480 I don't have a problem with new streets, but we did one, and I don't see it's -- other 492 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,200 than it being more walkable and a nice -- and I don't think it's great. 493 00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,680 I mean, if I'm going to walk from my office to 940s, I take Cedar Street. 494 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,980 Oftentimes I do because it's a nice walk. 495 00:36:02,980 --> 00:36:05,760 >> But you don't stop at any one of those stores, so what's the point? 496 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,920 >> There's nothing back there with the exception of the Thai restaurant, which really -- there's 497 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:11,920 just nothing back there. 498 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,960 There's been years for there to be economic development on the alley street, and it's not 499 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:16,960 really going to happen. 500 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,640 And I think we have to be okay with that. 501 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,520 There's a benefit to doing street improvements, but don't expect necessarily those streets 502 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:31,520 to have, you know, all this, you know, walkability and -- well, we're going to have walkability, 503 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:37,280 but to have this vibrant streetscape of retail, it's just -- it's not going to happen. 504 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:42,760 >> I think it would be better to have more bodies than more space for the few bodies 505 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,720 that we have downtown right now to get places, but more bodies would be better. 506 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:47,720 >> Right. 507 00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:52,160 >> Which approach equates to more bodies to you? 508 00:36:52,160 --> 00:37:01,160 >> Well, I think you have to make way to allow for development of places -- I mean, I particularly, 509 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:07,400 because I live downtown, I -- property owned downtown, people beg me for more properties 510 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,400 downtown. 511 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,640 I mean, you can't imagine the number of people. 512 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:19,080 I think that if we had a bunch of empty nested adults with a one-car garage living downtown, 513 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,640 that there would be more people going to Ben's shop. 514 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:27,920 >> Are you saying do the drainage to have the housing so those people would be there? 515 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:28,920 Is that where you're -- 516 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:33,720 >> Or office, housing or office, they both contribute. 517 00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:41,960 >> I think housing is a bigger thing now because office is a little bit iffy with COVID, but 518 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,440 I think bodies is important, whether it's office or -- 519 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:49,080 >> I mean, Paul, this is not an -- I'm not being an advocate for my own project, quite 520 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,080 frankly. 521 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:57,200 I'm glad that we didn't do it based on what's going on, but we tried tirelessly to redevelop 522 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,040 the gas station next to my building. 523 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,480 Melissa has seen the renderings. 524 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:09,240 And because of the floodplain and other code issues and inability to be flexible, we couldn't 525 00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:10,240 do it. 526 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:17,100 We couldn't build a really good-looking urban redevelopment, taking and repurposing an old 527 00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:20,240 gas station, keeping it and adding a new building to it. 528 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:22,320 We couldn't do it, right? 529 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,160 And the floodplain contributed most, and then as soon as we thought we had a solution to 530 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:31,480 that, then it was like, oh, you can't have parking in front of the building. 531 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,720 We're only having it there because it exists there today, and we're just trying to repurpose 532 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:36,720 the old building. 533 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,600 I mean, it's maddening, to be honest. 534 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:51,440 >> Well, you know, Todd has consistently, on other issues, said to me, tell us clearly 535 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:57,400 what you want, and we'll figure out a way to bring the resources to it. 536 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:04,240 You know, if you don't have completely, you know, crazy, wacky priorities, you know, but 537 00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:08,240 just can be very clear about your priorities, we'll bring the tools to bear. 538 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:17,400 I mean, I've seen it on numerous other fronts, and that's why I kind of go back to if it's 539 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:23,560 drainage and what it could create, I mean, I think I want to kind of put the question 540 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:29,640 to Jessica, like, what resources do you think could be brought to bear to flesh out the 541 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:37,880 picture of literally the picture of what that all could be? 542 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,320 And everything, you know, I'm on board really with everything you said, Alex, and I know 543 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:50,160 Ben, you were supporting in terms of, like, the linear paths on the drainage. 544 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:57,120 You know, it's kind of, in my mind, it's office and housing or, you know, live workplace space. 545 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:03,760 So it's office and housing, probably retail, and it's got to have some very compelling 546 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:04,760 public spaces. 547 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,320 You know, part of why the square works is it's a designed environment, you know, and 548 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,600 it's not just organic, it's a square with a park in your life. 549 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:15,600 Sense of place. 550 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:16,600 Exactly. 551 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:23,600 So, you know, it should, in my mind, it should somehow feel like an extension off the square 552 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,440 experience that adds to it. 553 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:32,240 I think often, not to copycat, but just as an example, you talk about Bishop Arts is 554 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:38,560 a good one, but I think of Sundance Square, you know, where they've got great public spaces, 555 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:45,120 a water feature, you know, so there's a reason to gather, and then all the stuff around it 556 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,120 is hopping. 557 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:52,160 I mean, I do live next door to a park that the city bought that has not developed into 558 00:40:52,160 --> 00:41:03,160 anything except for often a homeless space to be, and I'm not anti-public spaces. 559 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:10,560 I do like the focus in Denton of the square, and bleeding that focus out on a public space, 560 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:16,160 I'm not an expert in that, but I'm not sure that that's the best thing either. 561 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:21,960 I would disagree in that a really, really well-planned city, going back hundreds of 562 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:28,000 years ago to either today, they probably have nice public spaces that are connected with 563 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,160 good walkable connections, right? 564 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:31,160 Walkable, bikeable. 565 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:36,000 I mean, Savannah, Georgia, that I spent, you know, it's an old city that I went through 566 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,760 this summer, and they have square after square, not one square, square after square after 567 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,920 square in which the homes surround or the offices surround those squares, and then good 568 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:52,520 streets to walk to connect those places, and so, you know, sure, we could combine drainage 569 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:59,720 dollars, but you could do some cleanup by city using park funds to acquire, you know, 570 00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:05,840 parcels that really need to go away, you know, and then create a little pocket park here 571 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,600 and a pocket park here, and then do those along the drainage. 572 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,400 I mean, they're buying up properties now. 573 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,720 They bought one on South, right down on South Elm and Locust, and they're using it right 574 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,680 now for construction staging, but there was a time in which they put a sign on it to sell 575 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,080 it, and I don't think anybody bought it. 576 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:29,320 I know it would seem really strange, but hey, future public, you know, pocket park, right? 577 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:34,080 And then there's a drainage channel that connects to the next one, and there's a, you know, 578 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,920 and then good walkable connections to the square, and then just, you know, craft a development 579 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,520 policy in which, yeah, we want to see redevelopment, but we want it to form in an urban manner 580 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,360 around these linear or pocket parks. 581 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,400 I think it's tremendous. 582 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:57,320 In agreement, but part of why I threw some of that square into the mix is it's an urban 583 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,480 public space that's not green, they're not all necessarily green. 584 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:02,920 No. 585 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:14,260 What about, Jessica, what about bringing in just images to this group of other cities 586 00:43:14,260 --> 00:43:26,640 that have examples that might be inspired, that Melissa and Ben and Alex, you know, can 587 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:32,080 see them and go, yeah, that something like that, but combined with that feels like them. 588 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,640 Sure, we all have that vision. 589 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,760 I don't know that more vision needs to be weighed here. 590 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:46,640 I think this says there needs to be a expansion of the vision, and I mean, Jessica, please 591 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,240 follow up with what Paul asked for, which is providing images. 592 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:52,040 I'm not saying don't. 593 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,760 I just don't think that this group or the four people on this board right now that are 594 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:01,360 here have a lack of vision of what Denton could look like. 595 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,840 So I will remind everyone that we do have visioning plans. 596 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,720 To Alex's point, is there have been many discussions about downtown. 597 00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:14,880 There's the downtown implementation plan, the downtown master plan, the TURS plan. 598 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,840 They all have to work together. 599 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,600 And so if you refer to the project plan and the TURS and its creation, why was the TURS 600 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:23,600 put in place? 601 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:28,640 It specifically says to accelerate redevelopment and generate new development. 602 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:35,480 And that's why the focus has been on the projects that we feel will do that the best, given 603 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,840 the limitations that are put on the TURS. 604 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,960 So the funding cap, the area, and those things. 605 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,780 And that's why the focus of this discussion is specifically on those projects. 606 00:44:44,780 --> 00:44:48,560 It's not to discount the bigger visioning discussions. 607 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,320 I think those are important. 608 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:51,800 I think that they are valuable. 609 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,120 I think downtown is something that -- you're right, Melissa. 610 00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:00,600 We all have a vision that is, you know, very inclusive of a downtown that is something 611 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,400 more than what it is today, and it's already wonderful. 612 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:10,320 But speaking specifically to the TURS and the charge of this board and the project plan 613 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:17,640 as it exists today, now it is able to be amended, it specifically called out to focus on redevelopment 614 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,120 and accelerating growth. 615 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:25,240 And so what projects does this board feel like accomplishes that goal? 616 00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:29,840 And if it's ultimately not that goal that this board wants to focus on, is there an 617 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:35,760 amendment to the project plan or to the financing plan that will bring the vision of what this 618 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,780 tool can do to fruition? 619 00:45:38,780 --> 00:45:43,960 And so I want to kind of reframe the discussion around the TURS itself and not just a general 620 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,880 downtown visioning, because I think we can go look at those plans and see those plans 621 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,800 encapsulate the vision that we have. 622 00:45:51,800 --> 00:46:00,340 But what can this funding mechanism do to take the step in that direction? 623 00:46:00,340 --> 00:46:06,040 >> If you don't mind, Melissa and Alex, assuming you all paid for the infrastructure project 624 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:11,780 and there was no money left, right, it's used up, do you -- what percent of projects going 625 00:46:11,780 --> 00:46:17,840 forward do you think are going to come look for some type of incentive from the city? 626 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,960 So I think one thing to think about is if you pay for this project, that's great, it's 627 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:27,520 needed, but now there may not be any funding to assist those catalytic projects unless 628 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,680 the city comes up with another source. 629 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:38,000 So what are your thoughts about the tradeoff between that versus developer incentives? 630 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,480 >> I mean, developers are always going to ask and claim they need incentives, you know. 631 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,600 I am one, so I'll speak to that. 632 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,880 In some cases, it's absolutely necessary. 633 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,680 In some cases, it just helps make the project more profitable, right? 634 00:46:52,680 --> 00:47:00,000 And that can, you know -- but there are some in which you can have all the vision you want, 635 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,440 but the market realities just aren't there, right? 636 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:11,240 And so if you spend all this money and nothing happened, that would, you know, be unfortunate. 637 00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:13,360 I don't think it would be true, though. 638 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:21,440 I think there are ways to -- the city can incent without even having to, you know, give 639 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,840 away their tax dollars, so to speak, you know. 640 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:30,760 They can incent with density bonuses or, you know, be more flexible on a setback or, you 641 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,920 know, those are ways you can incent through planning efforts and not through actually 642 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,120 a shell out of city funding. 643 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,280 So a developer just needs a rate of return. 644 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:45,560 If you put some kind of limitation on them and then it's like, well, then I can't build 645 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:50,160 enough units to make that profitable, you know, then they go away. 646 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:55,960 Again, this is -- I don't have specific, you know, diagram, but I just -- I read an article 647 00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,680 in ULI years ago about West Campus in Austin and how they encouraged redevelopment and they 648 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,140 did it through density bonuses. 649 00:48:03,140 --> 00:48:08,760 They got developers to actually pay for some infrastructure that, you know, created the 650 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,240 vision or the streetscape or that they wanted, so the city didn't have to pay for it. 651 00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:17,880 The developer paid for it, but if you'll do this for us, we'll let you go more dense than 652 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,600 what is allowed in the code currently. 653 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:26,840 So those are examples of incentives that you just need to be creative, you know. 654 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,280 And so -- but if there's a floodplain there, no one's doing anything. 655 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:35,240 >> Well, I think probably, and Travis, you might already have the answer to this, but 656 00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:44,360 per square foot or per square mile, dealing with PEC 2 and 3 as an economic incentive, 657 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,080 what dollar amount can you allocate towards that? 658 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:54,520 So like for instance, Alex's development project that didn't happen, he would have had to pay 659 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:59,760 for X to get it out of the floodplain and X in insurance and X in development costs because 660 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:01,400 it was in the floodplain. 661 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:09,800 And what costs are you taking away by using TERS funds to not have a floodplain where 662 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,520 somebody wants to develop? 663 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,960 >> Sure, no, that makes sense. 664 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,800 I was thinking, you know, said differently, is the infrastructure project a sufficient 665 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,520 enough incentive that they don't need something else, which is another way to get at it? 666 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:29,000 And the second is what about other areas of the TERS that aren't impacted by the floodplain 667 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,360 that may come back and say it's great you did a floodplain, but I'm on the north side 668 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,920 of the square and I need X? 669 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,000 There may not be any money for those projects. 670 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,800 Just was kind of pointing out that trade-off. 671 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,440 >> Yeah, and I understand part two and three of that. 672 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:55,200 And I just guess I can't speak to it because I, you know, I think that if we made it developable 673 00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:01,080 and got out of the way, then it would develop in a natural way. 674 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:08,160 Some people might come ask for money, but they won't unless there's a reason to even 675 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:09,160 start. 676 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:20,040 >> I guess I could ask Jessica the question of if you can speak to it, I mean, there's 677 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:25,960 property that's been acquired, I believe, the Trinity property, is there, you know, 678 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:31,200 it's not in the floodplain, to my knowledge, so I'm guessing they would need incentives 679 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,320 to develop that. 680 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:38,000 Are there other things that people have come forth and said we need besides drainage improvements 681 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:39,000 to make? 682 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,200 >> I heard they stopped, Alex, just because of COVID and they didn't want to construct 683 00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:49,560 -- because they had a goal in mind of how much per square foot they wanted for the -- their 684 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,720 apartments and they couldn't get it during COVID, so they stopped. 685 00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:57,000 >> Yeah, I figured that was the case, but I also figured they're probably asking for 686 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,680 some type of incentive, but I bet you they could do it without it. 687 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:11,040 >> Specifically to that, yes, Alex, there will be an ask, and I've talked to them generally 688 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:16,720 about a -- and there's some growth there, potential to some other buildings outside 689 00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:21,240 of that footprint that they're looking at to leverage that ask, and I have some thoughts 690 00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:26,960 about -- along the rail trail that I've discussed with them, and I'll take it a step further. 691 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,800 I'm putting this notice out to any developer on the planet. 692 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,960 If you want to start looking at that ready-mix plant in the middle of our city, I'm willing 693 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:41,160 to absolutely break the bank to get them out of there. 694 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:42,160 >> That's good. 695 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,160 That's good. 696 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:44,160 That's good leadership. 697 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:51,480 >> To Alex's point, yes, we have pretty consistent discussions with developers, though, not just 698 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:57,080 that project, but other projects that have come to us, and there have been a pretty small 699 00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,920 set of consistent issues, drainage is one, both on the south side and the north side 700 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:03,360 of downtown. 701 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,720 We know that those are clear, so any type of acquisition of property or redevelopment, 702 00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:14,720 those are challenging, and then just older infrastructure, you know, are the -- is water 703 00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:16,220 and wastewater sufficient? 704 00:52:16,220 --> 00:52:20,880 Are existing lines going to have to be relocated because they've been there for so long and 705 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,440 it doesn't make sense for a new layout? 706 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:26,280 That's certainly an issue that we've looked at. 707 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:31,720 When we were even talking about redeveloping the parking lot on exposition, there's a wastewater 708 00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:37,720 line that runs diagonal through that, so even when we were going to just reconstruct a parking 709 00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:43,000 lot, that became an expensive endeavor because an old piece of infrastructure is still there. 710 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:48,480 So we do see consistent themes in downtown, regardless of what type of development it 711 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:58,640 is, certainly code and trying to be consistent and yet flexible is sometimes a challenge. 712 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:03,600 And so we hear that, definitely feedback that we can take back and talk to our development 713 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:08,800 team and say let's start having a bigger conversation about what we can do in downtown. 714 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:13,680 If we do have a vision for a particular type of development, what can we be looking at 715 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:19,200 in the downtown standards and where those apply and where those don't apply as growth 716 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:20,200 occurs? 717 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:25,080 I think that's valuable feedback that we can take back and start having those discussions 718 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,160 of getting more creative in terms of what we do on the development side. 719 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:36,640 I think that's not something that had been brought up before directly, so I put two stars 720 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:43,920 by it, Alex, to go have that discussion of what we can do and get more creative because 721 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:49,960 we are limited and this is our tool that we're choosing to use for many, many projects here. 722 00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,760 So what other opportunities do we have to get creative? 723 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,520 So I think those are all great. 724 00:53:55,520 --> 00:54:01,560 I do want to say the goal today would be to get the board's recommendations that we can 725 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:02,680 take back to council. 726 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:09,560 So just to clarify what I'm hearing is there's a preference for the drainage project. 727 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:15,800 There's a preference to extend the TURS boundary to be inclusive of that entire project, but 728 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:22,740 there's also a want to consider amending the term or the cap to give the TURS flexibility 729 00:54:22,740 --> 00:54:25,920 in the future to do maybe some of these other projects. 730 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:30,520 And if I am wrong on any of that, please correct me, but I want to make sure that I get a clear 731 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,640 direction to take forward to city council. 732 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:40,720 I think to that last point, I think if you, for me, and everyone can call me down on that, 733 00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:48,560 but if we are unable to extend it the amount or the time, then I think that this project 734 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,320 shouldn't eat up all of the money. 735 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:58,760 And so a shared expense, 80/20, 70/30 expense with the city I think would be appropriate. 736 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:04,240 I mean, we have to recognize that anything that does happen downtown affects the entire 737 00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:05,240 city. 738 00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:10,360 And to neglect that point I think is not positive. 739 00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:14,960 And just to be clear, now that I see David's on the Zoom, you don't have to extend the 740 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,440 cap to be able to have enough money to pay for PEC three and four. 741 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,120 So to pay for that project, just so everyone's clear, you'd have to expand the boundary and 742 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,960 there should be enough time to generate the 2021 million dollars with interest you need. 743 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:33,680 You would need to expand the cap if you wanted to have additional funds to be able to pay 744 00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,160 for things other than that project. 745 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:37,560 Is that clear with everybody? 746 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:42,480 You got to expand the boundary and you have enough time to pay for three and four, he'll 747 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:43,640 double check. 748 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:49,280 But if you want to pay for other things, you would also have to expand the cap and potentially 749 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:50,680 the time. 750 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:54,320 And I think with that note, if we are going to go to council, and I don't remember who 751 00:55:54,320 --> 00:56:00,120 said it, is it needs to be a clear plan, if we're going to make a request to expand the 752 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:07,320 term and the cap, I think we need to have a relook at the project plan and specifically 753 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,440 and get more specific about here are the projects we're going to do and here's the funds that 754 00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,180 we're going to put towards them. 755 00:56:13,180 --> 00:56:16,760 So that to Alex's point, because I remember Alex saying this, that it's not 10 years down 756 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,880 the road and we're having the same conversation again. 757 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:26,960 So let's get very specific about which projects and start moving forward. 758 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:32,880 I did say that it was also about if we're going to do this, why not do the north, whatever 759 00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:40,720 you're calling, PEC Northside, fund it in a similar way. 760 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:49,840 So next step, we need to discuss with council expansion of the boundaries and then expansion 761 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,560 of the time and the cap. 762 00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,200 And that would be the impact on downtown overall, right? 763 00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:06,800 Well, I think Jessica is saying, if I may, that expanding the time and the cap would 764 00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:12,720 be only if there are other things on the list in addition to PEC that you say, you know, 765 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:16,560 we want to put on the shopping list. 766 00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:23,680 Okay, so not just give us time so we can see what else pops up. 767 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:24,680 Not that. 768 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:25,680 Well, yeah, yeah. 769 00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:31,560 If it's just PEC, then it's expand that the geography, if it's other things, we need to 770 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,480 say what specifically you want. 771 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:40,600 And then that that would be met by expanding time and cap. 772 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:41,600 Okay. 773 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,760 That's what I'm hearing. 774 00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:44,760 Yes. 775 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:45,760 Thank you. 776 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:51,560 I said it like this. 777 00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:56,800 I do think that, and I don't mean to speak for the two council members that are here, 778 00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:01,520 but I do think going to city council with not just a, we want to, we're recommending 779 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:06,840 extending the term and cap and we don't really have a plan why, it's more effective of an 780 00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:13,400 argument to say, here are the specific things that we think we'd like council to consider 781 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:19,600 and to move forward with that will help us reframe the project plan and make the amendments 782 00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:20,600 necessary. 783 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:25,160 It then allows us to do the estimates and the fiscal impacts and economic impacts needed 784 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,640 for the finance plan amendment. 785 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:34,880 And so the I'm not saying we can't be inflexible in the future, but some specificity on if 786 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:40,480 it is, we want to continue the goal of developer development acceleration. 787 00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:46,320 Is it public infrastructure with the secondary goal being incentivizing some sort of development 788 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:53,200 in the future, or is it the incentives we can get there some other way. 789 00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:59,040 So we'd rather reserve some funds in the future for some of these smaller short term projects. 790 00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:04,680 Remember the downtown grants are funded through this sidewalk sliding, those sorts of things 791 00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:06,680 that should development occur in the future. 792 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:13,360 We can help develop the pathways, the sidewalks, the lighting that gets the pedestrian activity 793 00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:20,800 to those different kind of economic centers. 794 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:27,000 One that I feel really strongly about is the downtown grants. 795 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:32,120 That scares me that that's only here now. 796 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,000 I don't know how anybody else feels, but I would like to see that continue. 797 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,120 And that's one of the things that scares me if we spend all this money that there are 798 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,560 no incentives for small businesses to come downtown anymore. 799 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:53,720 And no incentives for them to fix their drainage or to fix their facade that will only see 800 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,420 big development roll through downtown. 801 00:59:57,420 --> 01:00:07,640 I would also like to ask if TXP, Travis, are helping to sort of craft the finance part 802 01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:13,480 of what we are pitching to council. 803 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:20,120 Yeah, I think I'm helping work on getting that request to city council. 804 01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:21,120 That's part of my task. 805 01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:26,920 But I think, Ben, therein lies the question, and Jessica said this too, what's the number 806 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,840 we're trying to come up with, which then helps make the financing plan easier? 807 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:35,160 Because if you remember on an earlier slide, the percent contribution goes down over time 808 01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:36,160 too. 809 01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:41,480 So I think trying to identify the projects you all want to fund helps frame how long 810 01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:46,440 you want to extend or how long the request is to extend the tourist. 811 01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:50,380 And then that helps finance figure out maybe if the tourist is extended in the cat, maybe 812 01:00:50,380 --> 01:00:55,040 they can finance things differently so you have some short-term funding available to 813 01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,120 pay for grants and other things. 814 01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,400 All that will tie together. 815 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,720 And I saw Gerard had his hand up. 816 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:09,680 Yeah, I'm going to do it again. 817 01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:11,760 I have a meeting I have to get to. 818 01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:12,760 I didn't expect that. 819 01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:18,960 I mean, I have a lot of thoughts about this, and I'm sorry, but, man, good night. 820 01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,920 Yeah, I'm not going to say anything un-port. 821 01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:23,960 I'll just say I got to do it again. 822 01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,560 So how close are we? 823 01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,080 You need a vote? 824 01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,080 Did you get your direction? 825 01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:32,360 There's no vote. 826 01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:34,760 I think you summarized it well. 827 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:35,760 Yeah. 828 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,640 Okay, so I just need clarification on one point. 829 01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:46,960 If we were going to kind of rank the project, so we want PEC is kind of the priority, then 830 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:52,640 to raise the cap or change the term, what is the secondary incentives or sort of the 831 01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,000 smaller public infrastructure projects? 832 01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:56,200 How would you rank those? 833 01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:01,560 I think there's other ways to achieve incentives, but that's my policy. 834 01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:02,560 That's my position. 835 01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:03,560 Okay. 836 01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:07,760 So maybe the smaller infrastructure projects and then incentives, if possible. 837 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:08,760 Sure. 838 01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,280 It's easier for the public to support you, frankly. 839 01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:13,280 Sure. 840 01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:14,280 Okay. 841 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:15,280 What about news streams? 842 01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:26,200 I'm curious to know if others are interested as well in Alex's point about looking at the 843 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:32,320 north of the square drainage opportunity as well. 844 01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:38,720 I'd be interested in, might be sort of outside of the scope of what we can talk about here. 845 01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:39,720 I don't know. 846 01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:48,320 I'd love to sort of say the total tab for laying the foundation for a greater downtown 847 01:02:48,320 --> 01:03:00,880 dentin includes north and south of the square drainage, Jessica, your point, and XYZ infrastructure 848 01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:02,680 that needs to be upgraded, right? 849 01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:08,680 If you did all that, you would have the foundation for the greater downtown dentin. 850 01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:09,680 What's that cost? 851 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:10,680 And solve for X. 852 01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:20,800 A very large number, but I bet we can try and estimate, we can get with capital projects 853 01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:25,600 and try and estimate some of those project costs just to get a ballpark figure. 854 01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:26,600 Sorry? 855 01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:31,440 Bring in parks to the discussion. 856 01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:32,440 Parks. 857 01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:39,560 It'd be very interesting once you stare that right in the face to then go, well, how would 858 01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:41,760 you finance something like that? 859 01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:45,000 What partnerships would be involved with grants? 860 01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,960 If it's compelling enough, this is kind of where it started from before, I wasn't trying 861 01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:52,600 to necessarily take us off in a wacky different direction, especially if it's already done, 862 01:03:52,600 --> 01:04:05,080 if it's a compelling enough goal, you're more likely to try to figure out how to get there. 863 01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:11,440 I just want to make sure that we're all in agreement on the direction as the board has 864 01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:19,520 kind of laid it out, and if so, our next steps, David, Travis, and I will probably regroup, 865 01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:24,120 talk through the work that needs to be done. 866 01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:31,120 Our original plan was to go to council probably in December, and so I'm not sure if that will 867 01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:36,080 require this board to meet again to finalize any of the details, so we'll probably need 868 01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:40,920 to talk about that and then get back with you guys. 869 01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:45,720 But I think we have our direction, at least to get started on, and I think the heavy lifting 870 01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,520 of this part of the project. 871 01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:53,360 Are we ready to move on to 1C? 872 01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:58,480 Anybody have anything else to add before I move to 1C? 873 01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:02,240 The next order of business is 1C, consider canceling the regularly scheduled November 874 01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:07,000 25th, 2020 meeting due to the Thanksgiving holiday and calling a specially called meeting. 875 01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:08,000 Jessica? 876 01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:17,440 Yes, so as you may know, the next meeting occurs on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, 877 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:23,520 and so I imagine in a normal year, many people would have travel plans and may not be in 878 01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:29,240 town, but we definitely wanted to give the board the option of considering either changing 879 01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:33,940 the date of that meeting or just canceling that meeting, and we can certainly call a 880 01:05:33,940 --> 01:05:37,240 special called meeting if needed. 881 01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:41,780 Like I said, I think we'll probably have to regroup to figure out what our gaps in knowledge 882 01:05:41,780 --> 01:05:48,040 are as it related to the previous item, and if we'll need to come back to the board again, 883 01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,600 so up to you guys. 884 01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:53,660 We're flexible. 885 01:05:53,660 --> 01:05:55,560 Who is here for that date? 886 01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:59,520 Ben, are you here that date? 887 01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:00,520 I am. 888 01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:01,520 I don't go anywhere. 889 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:03,360 Alex, are you here? 890 01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:05,400 What's the date? 891 01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:07,060 November 25th. 892 01:06:07,060 --> 01:06:08,680 The day before Thanksgiving. 893 01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,680 I won't be around. 894 01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:20,440 So Jessica, if you were to say a date that would be more in line with what you're presenting 895 01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:25,560 to council that you might have to revisit with us again, what would be a better date? 896 01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:31,920 I would just say sometime before the 25th, so if we needed to look at, I know city council 897 01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:40,800 is not meeting on the 24th, so I believe that the room might be available, and then last 898 01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:42,840 year we moved it to the week before. 899 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:48,760 That's a little bit more of a challenge now that we're limited in terms of one room and 900 01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:54,600 DTV production, so I'd have to double check, but it would probably be the week before. 901 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:59,000 Would everybody be good with Jessica distributing a couple of ideas for new dates? 902 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:00,000 Sure. 903 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:01,000 Good? 904 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:02,000 Yeah. 905 01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:06,160 The week before might be a little hard for me because we're finalizing the virtual beer 906 01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:14,760 fest that week, so I'm going to be doing what I do and just on conference calls nonstop. 907 01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:19,960 But yeah, early November, that's fine. 908 01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:25,280 Would we do it this way, or Jessica, are you talking about having us all in the same room? 909 01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:32,800 We will be doing Zoom meetings at least through the end of the year, and then we'll reevaluate. 910 01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:39,360 All right, so I think Jessica, if you could just distribute some new dates based on what 911 01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:40,360 you've heard today. 912 01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,440 Next order of business is 1D receive staff activity report. 913 01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,760 The chair recognizes Christina Davis. 914 01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:52,360 I hope I'll be joining you in November, by the way. 915 01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:55,520 Fair enough. 916 01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:00,120 Just really quick, we'll go through these so that we can finish up on time. 917 01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,200 On openings, we did have TB wins. 918 01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:08,200 They actually moved out of their upstairs loft area and into a new retail site, 222 919 01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,280 West Hickory Street. 920 01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:15,280 We have a new market in downtown that's called Mashed Up Market, and what they are is a vegan 921 01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:16,560 grocery store. 922 01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:20,640 So if that's something you're into, you might want to check them out. 923 01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,280 Circa 77 is closing. 924 01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:28,080 They still have their store closing banner hanging up above their store, so check them 925 01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,160 out before they're gone. 926 01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:34,540 And then coming soon, we have H2 Oak. 927 01:08:34,540 --> 01:08:40,800 Last I heard that they are still just finishing up some things and just waiting for COVID. 928 01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:45,560 Caskeys at 311 North Elm did a little searching on that. 929 01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:50,520 They have lots of permits out, but I haven't seen any work, and I'm not sure what the stall 930 01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:51,520 is. 931 01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,520 I haven't had any response back from them. 932 01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:58,640 More Fun Toys is moving into the previous Mad World Records, and so you see they have 933 01:08:58,640 --> 01:08:59,640 some covering on the windows. 934 01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:01,480 They're still working on that space. 935 01:09:01,480 --> 01:09:08,520 As far as our downtown grants, I did reach out to Chai Dao, and he's still working on 936 01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:09,760 his building. 937 01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:14,040 I haven't not seen a final CO yet, but last I heard he's still talking about putting in 938 01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:19,640 a burger restaurant there with his son. 939 01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:25,240 On the update for the COVID-19 response and recovery, the parklet and streetlets were 940 01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:30,960 approved, but not directly on the square, so off the square those are allowed. 941 01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:31,960 There's been some interest. 942 01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:36,080 I know of a couple businesses that have inquired, but I haven't seen any permits or anything 943 01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:39,520 issued for those yet and haven't seen anything go into place. 944 01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:44,680 We did have the 15-minute parking installed around the square with a request to go in 945 01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:50,600 some other locations off the square, but so far it's worked out really well, and everyone's 946 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:57,400 enjoying it and appreciating the convenience of that for deliveries and things. 947 01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:01,160 The city did do a survey, and we held two stakeholder meetings to gather feedback from 948 01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:06,680 downtown businesses and stakeholders regarding improvements or accommodations that can be 949 01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,000 mailed made to help them. 950 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:15,120 We do have weekly emails that go out to downtown, and I do get some responses back and questions, 951 01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:18,520 and it's nice to be able to provide the answers to those. 952 01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:24,200 We're open to other ideas, and we're encouraging everyone to share their ideas and giving us 953 01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:29,280 examples of other things that are successful, so we're always looking to the Texas Main 954 01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:34,040 Street and other cities to see what some of their new practices are and how we can implement 955 01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:35,040 that here. 956 01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:40,120 As far as upcoming events, there are no events. 957 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:45,040 There were some listed last month, but those have already passed, and Twilight Tunes went 958 01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:53,080 really well, and the Arts and Autos had a new format with drive-throughs, and we just 959 01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:57,760 received an email from them saying that they've been asked to extend that and do a couple 960 01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,520 more weekends, so they're working on that right now as well. 961 01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:05,520 Then, of course, we've already discussed the next meeting date, so that's all I have. 962 01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:07,600 Thank you, Christina. 963 01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,040 You're welcome. 964 01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:11,960 The final order of business is number two, concluding items. 965 01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,840 Is there any business to discuss? 966 01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:19,400 Raise your hand if you'd like to discuss any further business. 967 01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:24,100 This was an exciting conversation. 968 01:11:24,100 --> 01:11:28,480 I definitely appreciate TXP's, Travis's input. 969 01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:29,480 Thank you, Travis. 970 01:11:29,480 --> 01:11:32,320 I should have said that before you sort of blocked out. 971 01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:33,320 Thank you. 972 01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:34,320 You're welcome. 973 01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:35,320 Thank you. 974 01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:42,040 If there's no other business, the regular meeting is adjourned at 1014 a.m. 975 01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:43,600 Thank you all very much. 976 01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:44,600 Bye. 977 01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:49,580 [ Silence ]