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 Good evening. We are back. This is the city of Denton meeting agenda for the use of force

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 ad hoc committee tonight. The first items for consideration are the the minutes from last

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 week. If you've had an opportunity to look at the minutes, we'll need a motion to approve

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 with the second. So made. Motion. All those in favor, raise your hand. I motion carries.

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 The second is to receive a report, hold a discussion and develop findings, conclusions

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 and recommendations related to use of force in the Denton Police Department, including

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 policy and training, transparency and accountability and potential civilian oversight. And I think

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 right now this I'm going to turn this over to Patrick. And if you remember, Patrick was

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 here two weeks ago. And he's going to pretty much lead the discussion tonight. So there

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 you go, Patrick. Sure. Good evening, everyone. What we want to try to accomplish tonight

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 is fairly ambitious. And it's also part of your charge is to start doing some voting

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 to have a window down your priorities. And what we've done for the sake of kind of consolidating

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 is we've put some language together. Hopefully you received that email that Sarah sent out

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 earlier today that included a word document that was a memo drafted by me, along with

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 some city staff that encapsulated the background, the topics to be discussed tonight, including

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 the content of the recommendation. So we're going to be taking and hopefully if you have

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 that printed, great. If you have it up on your screen, great. If you don't, I can share

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 it. But I know that we're trying to make sure everybody sees everybody through this whole

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 process. We're going to take a series of votes. We're going to have an opportunity for discussion

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 as well. You've also had a number of meetings going back to June where you discuss these

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 items, all the different kind of the who's, the what's, the how tos, the different components,

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 the different dimensions. And now it's the time to kind of start to ship your idea, if

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 you will, and identify that language. I think there might be an opportunity we want to wordsmith

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 a little bit of the language tonight, but the gist of it, we want to try to keep as

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 reflective of the spirit of the majority of this group as possible. Assembling this is

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 a little bit like herding cats. So Sarah, I've met with all of you or several of you

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 prior to the September 1st meeting, she and some other staff members, they're just to

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 identify what you thought would be some solid recommendations. She's taking that language

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 and she and I have massaged that, that's what's in that memo that stated the City of Denton

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 Use of Force Committee draft memo dated yesterday, presented by me, the mayor on the group. Then

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 there's that language. And so here's kind of the way we thought it would work best tonight

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 is we're going to review each of those recommendations, if you wordsmith it a little bit, but not

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 spend an inordinate amount of time going back and hashing through things if this doesn't

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 fit perfectly the language that some one person wants. A part of this is we're trying to look

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 at the receptive to comments at the same time, look at this is somewhat of a majority rule.

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 And as we talked about voting, you know, there's different processes groups use, they use points

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 or colors or weighted. I think that complicates a simple process. We're just going to say

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 you either support it or you don't. And yes or no, and there'll be voice roll call votes.

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 And if the majority of the group votes for it, then we'll be included in the final report

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 which Sarah sent out a draft late this afternoon, that you're going to consider fully at your

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 next meeting, that would be included to the city council for their consideration. Remembering

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 your advising council and recommendations, right? That's always the challenge with appointed

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 boards, even boards and commissions, the city has a standing, their advisory. So the level

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 of authority is somewhat not as much as sometimes people would like. You're trying to offer

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 some recommendations for them to consider. And we know that sometimes council says thank

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 you. And they massage those recommendations more. Or sometimes they just say, we don't

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 like these recommendations. We don't know where that's going to play out here. But you're

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 trying to put your best foot forward, which I know you're all doing to volunteer to put

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 forth those recommendations. So we're going to look at each recommendation in and by itself,

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 discuss policy and training, and then go through alphabetically. And I have a roll call sheet

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 here in front of me. Do you support that? Do you not? Yes or no? Then we'll just tally

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 up the votes and I'll share with you the vote tally. Then we'll go through the second one,

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 transparency and accountability. Discuss that. Try to stay in the spirit of that. So I would

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 respectfully ask that people participate tonight but don't dominate. We're not trying to change

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 the gist of it. This really encapsulates the majority of what people shared in the conversation

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 they had with Sarah and staff a few weeks ago. We could wordsmith it some, but I think

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 we're just trying to find out balance. Does this capture the essence of what you want

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 as a recommendation? So those two votes we hope to knock out fairly quickly. Hopefully

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 I didn't just jinx us. And then the third one is a little bit more involved. We thought

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 it would be beneficial as you discussed the civilian oversight board. And I did watch

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 the video of the last week's meeting that we give you the opportunity to offer a perspective

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 just briefly as we go down the route alphabetically and find out if you yes or no, do you even

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 want to favor or offer a recommendation to city council for their consideration about

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 the civilian oversight board? In other words, we don't want to make the assumption that

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 this committee is definitely going to offer a recommendation. We just weren't sure. And

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 we know that issue has a lot of different buttons to it. A lot of different sort of

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 passion around that. So we want to give people a chance to, again, voice, roll call, voice

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 vote yes or no. Do you want to consider the option? We'll tally up those. And then we're

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 going to go into the next vote, hopefully the fourth one, which is of those six options,

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 which I hope you have that matrix handy. We're going to ask instead of trying to say, you

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 know, vote for the top, the top one, and then we may end up with five of them getting two

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 votes apiece. So that doesn't really serve us well. We're going to ask you to offer what

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 are your top two selections. Now, there might be a tendency as you get into these options

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 to kind of mix and match. We're going to try to avoid that. We don't want to try to dilute

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 the essence of each option. And remember, these are to recommend to the council for

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 their consideration. If you end up supporting a recommendation that's forwarded to the council,

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 they end up adopting some form of that recommendation. They may very well have it operationalized

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 by subcommittee of council or reconvene members of this group to actually work through the

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 details. Most often, as we know, these civilian oversight boards, there's a lot of moving

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 parts. It's a fairly protracted process, a lot of different viewpoints, a lot of different

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 options. We're not going to cover that even in the scheme of this committee from last

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 June up to this point. And we definitely aren't going to cover all of those sort of intricacies

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 and nuances tonight. We're trying to keep them somewhat separate and offer hopefully

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 one recommendation if that's the group's choice. So we're trying to keep this as simple as

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 possible, trying to narrow the focus. I hope you can appreciate that's where we are in

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 this process. That's where all groups have to sort of find themselves at some point is

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 to contemplate the options and vote yes or no, whether they support it. And that's why

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 we thought it would be beneficial for you to let you know that in advance. We've talked

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 about that previously because I know that can be sometimes uncomfortable for people.

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 But if we don't have a voice roll call vote, then I think we're left with everything's

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 a priority. And then I don't think that helps council process your recommendations. At some

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 point, they need to understand the level of support by the majority of this group. Okay.

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 So we try to make this process as simple as straightforward as possible. I appreciate

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 your patience and your persistence as we go through this.

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 Patrick, before you jump into that, I just want to let you know I don't I don't think

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 your headset is on. I think you're just talking. I just wanted to let you know the audio is

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 coming through from you, but it's not through the headset. It's just sounds like it doesn't

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 sound like it. It's you're still clear. I just wanted to point that out to you.

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 Oh, I'm sorry. That's okay. Oh, I thought it was I'll try to work on that. I apologize

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 for that. I've been on this all day. That's okay. We can still hear you. Okay. I believe

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 everyone on the committee. I just wanted to point that out to you. All right. Thank you.

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 I'll try to figure that out here. Maybe at the break or something. I apologize for that.

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 I'll get a little closer to the microphone here. Hey, Patrick. Will we have Smith has

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 a question? Yes. Mr. Ed Smith. I hope I pronounced that correctly. Yes. Am I understand if we

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 vote? If three doesn't pass, there's no need for four. Right? Isn't that correct? Yes,

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 sir. Can you hear me? Yes. Yeah. And that you're correct in that that if there's if

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 number three does not have a majority of the truth statement. You're breaking up there

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 a little bit, sir. I think what you're asking is we don't have to deal with four. Correct.

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 Yes, sir. That right? Yes. I believe what he was asking is if number three, if three

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 does not get the majority vote, we don't have to deal with four. Yes. Yes. He said yes,

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 Willie. Can you hear him? Well, I think there's some something going on with your audio because

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 you're breaking up and you're frozen. Can you hear me? Yeah, you're frozen. Yes. But

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 I didn't hear his answer. He said yes, said yes, sir. You're you're frozen. So I'm not

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 sure your audio is frozen. Okay. Yes, you were correct in what your statement was. Well,

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 never mind. He said he said yes, Willie, but you're frozen. So you're breaking up. Yeah.

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 So what did he say? If what I heard you saying was that if that number three, are you are

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 you hearing me now, sir? I'm not sure. He's frozen, at least from what I see. Okay, I'm

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 gonna get up. Okay. Okay. All right. Any other questions or comments before we get started?

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 So if you have that memo handy, I'm just going to start on item one under the policy and

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 training. I'll read this aloud, if that's okay. And then if you want to have a brief

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 discussion, policy number one, policy and training. Does the committee have any recommendations

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 for updates to policy language or training regarding use of force? bullet point one.

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 After review, the committee felt that they could not offer any specific recommendations

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 or changes to policy. bullet point two, to continue emphasis on understanding and deescalating

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 situations, the police department should investigate continued opportunities for regular training

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 for officers on mental health, diversity and inclusion, inclusion, persons with physical

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 or intellectual disabilities, and LG, LGBTQ individuals. Such training should be balanced

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 to manage proper staffing for the department and other mandated trainings. The police department

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 should track and share general metrics on training encompasses a lot there about policy

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 and trading. Conversation about that comments, you talked about about this at length, about

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 the dashboard about the policy itself. You had several presentations on it. Chief Dixon

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 and his staff responded to questions. comments or questions before we take the vote? I'm

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 sorry, could you read it again? I for some reason, I really couldn't understand at the

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 very beginning, and I apologize, because it was, it's like an echo or something. Sorry.

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 So I'll reread it. Number item number one, policy and training. Does the committee have

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 any recommendations for updates to policy language or training regarding use of force

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 is the question. bullet point one. After review, the committee felt that they could not offer

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 any specific recommendations or changes to policy. Bullet point two, to continue emphasis

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 on understanding and deescalating situations. The police department should investigate continued

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 opportunities for regular training for officers on mental health, diversity and inclusion,

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 persons with physical or intellectual disabilities, and LGBTQ individuals. Such training should

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 be balanced to manage proper staffing for the department and other mandated trainings.

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 The police department should track and share general metrics on training. I hope that you

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 heard me that time. I think it was Katrina. I'm not sure. I'll answer questions about

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 that before we take a vote. Katina, I'm sorry, Katina, could you hear that? Yes, I can hear

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 it. And we're voting on that whole and part that everything that you just read is one

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 thing, Rick. Correct. Okay. All right. Thank you. Oh, did you have your hand up? Yeah,

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 I just wanted to reemphasize, you know, in you know, where number one and two or number

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 two in particular can form number one. I brought that up a couple of times just where there's

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 opportunity along the way for the report that's going to be posted, you know, biannually,

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 where there's a clarity that, hey, this is a, this is something in regards to use of

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 force that we're learning, which may change over time that the police need to be more

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 trained in, you know, that comes out of number two, just that that would also inform number

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 one. Maybe that's assumed in the language there. And I'm missing it. I just, I just

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 wanted to say that, you know, again, I agree, because I'm trying to make sure that I understand

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 that if we're voting yes, we're voting that there needs to be changes. And if we're voting

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 no, there needs to be no additional changing changes and the statement of more training

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 and all of that stand. Is that correct? You're actually voting yes on the language that I

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 shared, that that would be included in the report as one of your recommendations. So

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 this is your, okay. Chief, I don't know if you wanted to address Bo's comment about the

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 biannual and number two and how you would kind of envision reporting that out.

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 So we already do an annual report, which we're going to continue. We go in front of council

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 and give them updated reports, but we're going to make a specific update that pertains to

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 everything that we have captured along the way here, moving forward. And you're going

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 to see those, we already look at every internal affairs investigation, ways to improve the

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 training behind what happened in it. No matter what it is, there's a training component,

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 whether it's individually to the officer, or if we think it's organizational, then we

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 send it out through the organization. Great. That's all I was, that's the only comment

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 I had. Any other comments or questions? I'm just

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 going to go alphabetically and if you're voting yes, that means you support what I read as

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 language in the final, you support that language that I read to include in the report that

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 you will be providing city council. And again, that's going to be discussed in more detail

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 the report itself at the next, at next Thursday's meeting.

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 And then Patrick, after we take this vote, we're going to take a quick break because

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 your headset is not working. So we can barely, I mean, we can hear you, but it's a, I don't

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 know if it is the mic or cause it sounds like you're just talking into your computer.

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 Sarah, maybe could you take this roll call vote so people can hear us? I'm sorry about

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 that. That's okay. Sure. Thank you very much. I apologize.

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 No problem. So this is for that number one, the policy

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 and training recommendations only. So we'll start with, and just going alphabetical by

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 last name, John Baines. I'm in favor of the language as it's presented.

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 Thank you. Jamel Butler. I vote for the policy for number one. Yes.

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 Okay. Great. Thank you. Um, pastor chambers, uh, Cameron combs. I do not see you on the

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 meeting, but I just want to make sure. Okay. Uh, camion Connor and just to let you know,

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 she did email and let me know she was going to be late to this meeting. So I don't believe

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 she's here yet. Uh, chair English. Yes. Yancey green. Yes. Pam. Yes. I'm in favor of the

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 language. Gary. Yes. Willie. Yes. Rhonda. Yes. Shay. Are you on the meeting? No, I do

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 not see Shay. Okay. Travis testing. Yes. I'm in favor. Okay. Um, and then Lillian is next

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 and she did email me and let me know that she may not be able to make it to the meeting

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 tonight. Um, but she did vote yes for this item. Um, so that's reflected and recorded.

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 Uh, Angela. Yes. Katina. Yes. Yes. Okay. And then, uh, Donna diamond Tyson is next and

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 she also emailed me and let me know she could not make it to this meeting. Um, but she was

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 a yes and in favor of this item. And then Jamie would be last and she is absent from

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 the meeting as well and it did not get her recommendations by email. So that is all the

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 members for the first item. Okay. Can you hear me better now? Okay. Great. Thank you

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 very much. Sorry about that. So many microphones, only one voice. Um, so that carried, I think

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 unanimously, I was trying to figure that out, but I thought I heard all yeses to that. Hey,

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 momentum. Let's talk that one up. Okay. So that's terrific. All right. Wonderful. Thank

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 you. Uh, moving on to number two and I'll read this aloud, uh, two is transparency and

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 accountability question. Does the committee have any recommendations to enhance reporting

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 of information to the public response or the recommendation is the police department shall

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 create a report that includes data on officer response calls where use of force was used

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 and summary information on complaints filed against police officers for improper use of

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 force and their disposition, including if the complaint was sustained and training was

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 recommended. This report shall be posted and presented online in a friendly, consumable

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 way. The frequency of the report shall be at least semi-annually where possible data

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 should be presented in a data dashboard format. You've discussed this at length about information

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 being provided in a way that is easy for people to consumable way, meaning that it's presented

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 for the public to process to understand that it's not so much in kind of a jargon, if you

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 will. And they would include that sort of information provided at least semi-annually

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 twice a year. Comments or questions about that? Uh, yes, Pam, it, I believe it falls

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 along these lines. When an event happens, um, I believe the public is seeking a compassionate,

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 help heartfelt response from Chief Dixon. Um, and I'm, I'm referring to when lethal

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 force occurs and not so much, um, speaking to the, you know, to the, if it's in relation

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 to what happened with the officer, but in relation to what happened with the person.

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 And I'm wondering if we can include some type of language or something where Chief Dixon

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 is willing to say something to the public and to the family, because I think sometimes

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 I hear that's missing and I feel like the public is asking for that. And I'd like to

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 discuss that tonight. Okay. Comments along that line and what Pam shared? I, what I hear

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 you saying, Pam, is this wouldn't be something included in the report per se. This is something

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 that you would recommend that the chief does during one of those incidents where when,

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 when something actually, an event happens and the response by the police chief to address

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 family, the family of those people that may be involved, expressing concern for the family

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 and the public, because I think it speaks volumes for the police force and for the chief

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 to express that concern, because I think that that's what I've heard is lacking from our

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 police force that we're not showing concern. And I think it's something that possibly needs

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 to be in the report. Maybe not, but I'd like to hear the viewpoint of others on that. Katina,

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 it looks like you have your hand raised. Thank you. Just a quick question. Sure. Is it required

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 that, is that, is it protocol for when families, when there is force or from, and a death is

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 the, is the result of force or, you know, by the police, are they required to notify

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 the family? I just want to know, understand the protocol and do they do it in person?

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 Do they attempt to go to their home? Do they call them on the phone? Just what the standard

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 protocol is. Thank you. Okay. Before I give chief Dixon a chance to response, hold on

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 one second, chief, if you would. John, you had your hand up. Just wanted to see if that

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 was related to that. Yes, I did want to respond to Pam's observation. It seems that the more

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 the officials can greet the public and express concern and rather than just allowing the

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 newspaper to communicate or the news, I think it adds a little more personalness when the

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 chief or the city official makes an official statement and expresses some empathy. So somehow

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 that does need to be incorporated. Thanks, John. Chief Dixon, do you want to respond

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 to the comments that were shared by committee members? Absolutely. So I fully understand

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 and actually agree with what you're saying, but there's a dichotomy here. We have an outside

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 agency come in to investigate those. So for me to stand up and make any kind of statement

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 having not had any part of the investigation can really send a completely poor message,

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 not just internally, but to the public. Now, the humanity part, I understand and I totally

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 agree with showing compassion for other human beings, but to make a statement on the event

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 itself, I think that would be very problematic or could potentially be very problematic if

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 myself, the mayor, or the city manager is getting out there making statements. So that

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 would be my only concern and something that I would like for the committee to take into

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 account. Thanks, chief. I agree, chief. I agree 100%. And I'm not speaking to making

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 comments about the event. I'm speaking more to showing compassion to the family, especially

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 if they've lost a loved one, not necessarily to, and that's why I was trying to make that

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 clear and I'm sorry if I didn't, more that the public needs to know that you were showing

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 compassion to the event. And I really like how Mr. Baines articulated it because I think

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 they look to you as a very high public official and they want to see that you have that compassion

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 and not necessarily talking about anything that happened, just that you feel bad that

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 they've lost someone. I won't talk about publicly, but I will tell you that I did meet privately

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 because I know what we're talking about. I did meet privately and do that. Thank you.

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 So to Kofina's point, the investigating agency is the ones that make contact with the family

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 and typically, I won't speak for the agencies that are doing it, but typically they do it

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 in person and not just over the phone. But again, when we have a third party coming in

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 to do those, we can't really control how they do it. We can't make recommendations to them.

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 Okay. Thanks, Chief. Bo?

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 So Pam, is part of what you're saying here under transparency and accountability, like

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 if there was another arrow there just saying in light of those sorts of events that the

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 chief makes a public statement regarding sanctity of human life, reaffirming the sanctity of

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 human life, in particular this life, and also the department's commitment to transparency

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 and accountability?

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 Yes. That's exactly... Thank you, Bo. You articulated it beautifully. That's... Yes.

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 Because I feel like, Chief, that you do that, but the public isn't seeing that. And I feel

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 like they need to see you... Like just what you said, you went and did that, but the public

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 isn't seeing that and they need to see you doing that. To me, that's incredibly important

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 that they see that. And I feel like it's important coming from our committee that we also recommend

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 that. And personally, it's very, very important to me. I don't know about the rest of the

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 committee, but it's something that I hold very dear. Thank you, Bo.

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 Okay. Other members' thoughts about... Yes. Mr. Hudspeth, and then I thought... Yes. Go

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 ahead. Willie. Did you have your hand up, Willie? Go right ahead.

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 Turn your mic on, Willie.

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 All right. There you go.

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 If we're looking at voting and looking at this statement here and thinking in terms

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 of what we're going to give to the city council, and it has to be something that generally

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 covers all aspects of transparency, I think the statement covers all that. What we're

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 getting into now is some specific things that we want to add to that process. But as far

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 as giving the city council something to look at that we have sent to them and said, "Consider

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 this." I think two is okay. The other, we got to do something else in a different situation,

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 but I think we just need to call for the vote to see what the rest of the committee members

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 think about. Does this cover, in essence, the issue of transparency?

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 Okay. Thanks, Willie. Did anybody else have thoughts? Yeah, Yancey, I think you have your

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 hand up.

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 I don't know if I'm just reading it incorrectly, or maybe you can clarify for it. On the line

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 where it says, "Just a summary of information on complaints filed against police officers

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 for improper use of force in their disposition," if we're going to put that language in there,

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 I think this should be all complaints for all use of force as opposed to just the improper

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 use of force where the officer was disciplined. Because in my opinion, as an officer, if we're

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 only going to publish a report where discipline was added, they're not showing on the report

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 where force was actually necessary and the officer's done the right thing. So we're going

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 to do it for improper use of force. As an officer, I would like to see it on there for

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 all use of force complaints, not just the improper one.

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 Okay. Other thoughts about that? Support for that?

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 I agree. I agree with that.

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 Chief, I don't know how, what your thoughts are about that. If that's two sides of the

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 same coin, essentially, how comfortable you are with including --

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 It's captured in the use of force report and the data that we presented to the committee.

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 So it's already manufactured. That's fine.

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 Okay.

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00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:54,640
 Yeah.

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 Thanks. Thanks, Chief. So to Yancey's point, it sounds like while it is covered for emphasis,

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 to include complaints filed against officers for improper use of force in their disposition,

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 along with some language about all use as a force. So it's covering the entire spectrum

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 of that. We'll make sure and polish that language up, Yancey, and it be included for next week's

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 consideration. But that's the spirit, I think, of what you're looking for. Is that correct?

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 I think, Yancey, if we struck out improper and just said use of force, would that --

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 That's fine. Just the word "improper" would make it seem like only for disciplinary and

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 --

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 Okay. That's a very good point.

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00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:44,000
 Okay. Thanks, Yancey. Okay. So with that one change, deleting the word "improper," the

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 rest of the language is intact. If you want to call for a vote now to see if it prevails

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 the way the language is, you know, some of this is a little bit of -- there's a little

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 bit of an ebb and a flow to this about the content of the recommendation. And adding

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 things on -- and this is the delicate side of a group setting, even if we were physically

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 all in the same room. The delicate side is when a few people bring things up, but nobody

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 else says anything, as a facilitator -- remember, I'm not a moderator. I'm a facilitator to

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 say, okay, well, I don't hear a lot of other comments to support their assertion, their

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 recommendation. So that leads me to believe there may not be support. I'm just interpreting

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 that. And to have a vote, if it passes, great. If it doesn't, they can have another discussion.

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 But I don't want to make the assumption because a few people made suggestions that we're going

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 to change the language of the recommendation, right? That's the delicate side. We're kind

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 of wordsmithing this in real time. So that's why I need people to step forward about whether

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 you want to have the vote, whether you want to have some additional language, what Pam

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 and some others have talked about. I need some feedback here before we just sort of

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 have a vote. And this is delicate, right? We're trying to incorporate your points of

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 view at the same time, not continually add and add and add, which may not reflect the

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 majority. And then some people go, well, I like number two, but I don't like number three.

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 And then it tends to be just -- well, I think it drains your energy. So I saw a couple of

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 hands up. I'm just trying to put that out there for you to consider. If we can put your

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 hands back up. I'm sorry I may have missed it. John, go right ahead. And then Katina

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 and then Willie. >> Very briefly, I think to address Pam's

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 concern are the points you brought up. It's not bad that something from a person of leadership

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 to confirm the sanctity of human life is good, irregardless of the setting. And then the

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 other item that Deansi brought up that we should remove the word improper, those are

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 my two suggestions. >> Okay. Thanks, John. Katina and then Willie.

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 Willie, go ahead. >> I think you're right. If we start putting

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 little bits and pieces in it, we'd be here just discussing one part or the other. I think

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 the essence of what is there is where it needs to be at this point. One -- but with that,

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 with Deansi's point, I thought was good, he -- we do need to not just look at the negatives.

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 But if we're looking at lethal force as an issue, then we say the report should cover

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 all forms of lethal force. And I said we need to just -- and also, again, let's not start

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 bringing in just little points. >> Okay.

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00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:03,040
 >> I think we ought to have the vote now. >> Okay. Other comments? This is a bit of a

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 balancing act, right? Why don't we go ahead and take -- Pam, go ahead.

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00:35:11,060 --> 00:35:15,920
 >> I appreciate Willie's comment very much, but I don't think the sanctity of human life

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 is a -- I think it's critical. So I hold that to the highest esteem. So while I appreciate

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 Willie's comment, I think it's something that we do need to consider. And I appreciate Mr.

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 Bain's comment and support and Katina's support in this. So I do think it needs to be considered

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 further. >> Okay. Willie, did you have your hand up

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00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,800
 again? I thought I saw that. >> Yes, yes. You know, this is a back and

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 forth I'm talking about. I didn't say that we don't -- the sanctity of life is not important.

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 I'm talking about the report itself. It covers all of that. And if you want something specific,

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 this is not the place or the time for that. Something that -- in that situation. And I

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 resent being said to me that I don't honor the sanctity of life. So here we are in that

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 situation again. We do need to hear from the rest of the people and how you mis-iterate

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 from the rest of the people. Let's vote. >> Hold on one second. These issues as we get

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 into this, as you've had all along through these meetings prior to my participation and

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 right now, you're all passionate about that. We take that on face value. You're all volunteering

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 to be on this committee, bringing your time, attention, effort and energy to this. I think

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00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,960
 we also want to make sure that we maintain some professional collegiality among all of

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 you because these are issues that are coming from the heart sometimes. And it's easy for

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 people to just mis-interpret or misunderstand. And we're trying to -- and even if we were

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 all in the same room, we would also have those delicacies. So I would just ask that we're

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 trying to understand people's points of view, show that empathy and understand a whole lot

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 about a group of people about how they handle disagreement because stress reveals character.

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 And you're all in agreement. It doesn't show us a whole lot. It does about the content

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 of what you're recommending, but sometimes when you don't. So I'm just asking for your

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 cooperation, your being collegial and professional. That way -- I'm not trying to -- I'm not taking

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 sides here, but just as a good reminder about how we have these conversations. Because you

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 all -- these are -- a lot of these things are near and dear to people's hearts and they're

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 passionate about that. And we love that passion. It's trying to do that in a way that's collegial

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 and collaborative. So I just offer that as a perspective. Bo, you've had your hand up

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 for a while and then Pam? >> Yeah, I just wanted to know from the committee,

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 is anybody against, under transparency and accountability, recommending the first one,

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 but then also adding the second one that says we recommend to the council that in the case

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 of deadly use of force, there be a statement made reaffirming the sanctity of life and

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 our commitment to transparency and accountability. That's just -- it seems like that's what Pam's

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 recommendation is. And is anybody on the committee against that? Adding that recommendation right

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 under the one that Willie's affirming is good to go?

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 >> Rhonda? Did you have your hand up, Rhonda? We can't hear you, Rhonda. And then I'll get

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 to you, Pam. I know you had something. >> That's fine.

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00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:35,740
 >> Rhonda, you're -- unmute yourself. >> We're not exactly sticking to Robert's

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 rules of order, but let me suggest we fall back on them for a moment. There's no reason

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 why it was just suggested. It couldn't be seen as a friendly amendment. It doesn't require

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 a vote. It doesn't require anything other than just adding a few words, and then we

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 call the question. >> Okay. Thanks, Rhonda. Pam, you had something?

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 >> Mr. Willie, I was not intending to insult you, and I just wanted to say that. I apologize

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 if I did, because in no way was I intending to insult you, sir. I have utmost respect

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 for you, and I didn't mean to insult you at all. I was just -- I just wanted to discuss

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 it now, because I feel like it is the appropriate time. So I just wanted to apologize if I insulted

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 you. That's all I wanted to say. Thank you. >> Okay. Why don't we do it this way, just

397
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,160
 for the sake of moving this forward? I appreciate all your comments. I'm going to, to Rhonda's

398
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,940
 point, offer -- I'm going to include here, for the sake of the voting, a friendly amendment

399
00:39:28,940 --> 00:39:37,680
 to include that when there's a -- the passing, the death of someone, or even a serious matter,

400
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,800
 including along those lines, that the Chief Dixon, the police department, elected officials

401
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,400
 are strongly encouraged to make a public statement about the sanctity of human life and show

402
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,560
 some acknowledgement publicly of that. Is that correct? I'm trying to paraphrase kind

403
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:56,400
 of what you were getting at. In other words, it's not just for -- it's not for the media

404
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,680
 to -- like John was saying, it's not just for the news media to report. It's for the

405
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,200
 city to essentially be on point for that and make a statement about that, in particular

406
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,400
 about the sanctity of human life, without necessarily discussing the merits of what

407
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,320
 happened, even though that's what people will want to know. We know that, right?

408
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:13,320
 >> Absolutely. Yes, that's correct. Thank you.

409
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,720
 >> So something of that language. So I'm going to go ahead and include that and take a vote

410
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:23,720
 if that's okay with everybody, so we can keep moving forward. Okay? So now that everybody

411
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:27,600
 can hear me, I'll go ahead and take over the roll call vote. Thanks, Sarah. And just -- so

412
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,740
 if you're voting yes, you're voting yes to support the language that I read earlier,

413
00:40:31,740 --> 00:40:35,960
 as well as what I just kind of cobbled together, that the Friendly Amendment about the sanctity

414
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,120
 of human life -- and again, that will be in the report -- if that passes, then that would

415
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,560
 be in the report. Angela? >> I just want to make sure I understand

416
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,080
 what we're voting on. >> Yes.

417
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:50,760
 >> You said the number two, but are we saying with the inclusion or removal --

418
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,960
 >> Yes. With the inclusion of the Friendly Amendment about a public statement regarding

419
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,680
 the sanctity of human life after an issue. >> I'm talking about removing the word "improper."

420
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:05,080
 >> Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. You caught that. Yes. And "improper." Okay? So let me just

421
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,800
 restate that. You're voting on transparency and accountability. The one recommendation

422
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:17,120
 there that has deleted the word "improper" and we've added some language to be worked

423
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:24,040
 out as a Friendly Amendment regarding a public statement shall be made by city officials

424
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:29,240
 after an incident in the passing or regarding the sanctity of human life. Something along

425
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:34,080
 those lines. I hope I captured the spirit of that. Okay? That's what you're voting

426
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:39,160
 on. So let's go ahead and start. A yay vote means this would be included as a recommendation.

427
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:45,240
 No means that you don't. You don't support it. So I'm just going to go alphabetically

428
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:49,720
 here. John Baines? >> I support the recommendation with the

429
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:52,360
 Friendly Amendments. >> Okay. Thank you. And that's what you're

430
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,280
 all voting for. So please don't say I voted for without it, okay? That's what you're voting

431
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,240
 for. All of you right now are voting with it to delete the word "improper" and add the

432
00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:06,400
 Friendly Amendment. That's the vote. Jamel? >> I vote yes.

433
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,800
 >> Okay. Cedric? >> Yes.

434
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:16,640
 >> Cameron? Is Cameron here? No? >> Absent.

435
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:22,000
 >> I'm sorry if I mispronounced this. Kamyen? Connor?

436
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:28,000
 >> Kamyen is also not on the call yet. >> Cheryl?

437
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:40,400
 >> Yes. >> Yancey? Yes? Pam Gutierrez? Pam, yes, of

438
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:52,520
 course. Gary? Anderson? >> Yes. >> Willie? Hudspeth? >> Yes.

439
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:57,280
 >> Bo Hughes? >> Yes.

440
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,520
 >> Rhonda? >> Yes.

441
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,520
 >> Chevionne Moore? Hope I didn't mispronounce that.

442
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:09,000
 >> She is also absent. >> Absent. Okay. Travis?

443
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:21,800
 I don't know if he froze or -- are you there, Travis? I'll come back to you, Travis. Maybe

444
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:27,780
 your camera froze. Lillian? I think she had voted yes for the original language that she

445
00:43:27,780 --> 00:43:42,720
 said in the e-mail. Angela? >> Yes. >> Katina? >> Yes.

446
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:54,440
 >> Donna had voted I think yes in her e-mail for the original language. And Jamie? I think

447
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,000
 -- >> Jamie is absent. >> And then I think Travis

448
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:06,320
 rejoined us. Travis? >> Yes. >> Voting yes. So it was unanimous yeses

449
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,560
 including that friendly amendment so we'll work on that language for you just to review

450
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:17,840
 at some point likely at the next meeting, okay? Does that sound good? All right. The

451
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:23,080
 next one is about the civilian yes or no on the civilian oversight. What we thought would

452
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:29,680
 be beneficial here, trying to also be respectful of people's time is to give people the option

453
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,920
 of offering a point of view about the civilian oversight board. And I was going to just try

454
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,000
 to go alphabetically to keep it simple. Just offer a brief statement, your thoughts to

455
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:44,520
 share. Once you wrap that up, I'd like for hopefully that to be brief, is to then ask

456
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:50,440
 for a yes or no vote. Do you consider -- or should the committee consider any of the options

457
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:57,040
 yes or no? If the number of votes is the majority yes, then we'll go on to the next vote, which

458
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:03,560
 is of those options, which are your top two. And we can have those discussions as well,

459
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,960
 right? And again, we may not get to the final vote tonight. Some of this is about time.

460
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,800
 And I hope that you can understand the reason we're asking for your top two because I'm

461
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,500
 afraid if we ask you just to vote for your top one, everyone will get two or three votes.

462
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:20,080
 And then we're -- that's not making any progress. Then we're right back to where we started,

463
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,720
 which is you got to be somewhat -- you got to prioritize there. So does that sound good

464
00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:30,000
 for the sake of the discussion? All right. So on this, what I'd like to do is just ask

465
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,360
 for each of you, if you'd like, it's up to you, to offer a brief statement about what

466
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,720
 you see about the civilian oversight board. You're not voting, but just offer a perspective

467
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:44,920
 maybe to share with your colleagues about the value of it or just where you are on it,

468
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:50,040
 right? Just your thoughts about it. I hope that's okay. And so I wanted to just go alphabetically

469
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,600
 and start with you, Mr. Baines, if you would start us off. Just a brief statement.

470
00:45:53,600 --> 00:46:01,280
 >> Okay. I need just a point of clarification. So I'm looking at this matrix here, and it

471
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,040
 has one, two, three, four, five options. >> Correct.

472
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,400
 >> And you're asking us for our top two? >> Not yet. No. What are you asking for right

473
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:14,440
 now? Let me just repeat. What we're asking for right now, no voting yet. If you'd like

474
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,840
 to make just a general statement about your point of view about the civilian oversight

475
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,940
 board, that's cool. If you say, hey, I'm good, and just move on to the next person. We just

476
00:46:21,940 --> 00:46:26,240
 thought we'd give everybody a chance to offer a perspective. Then when we finish those,

477
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:30,600
 we're going to have a vote. And the vote will be, do you support the committee even considering

478
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:35,160
 any of those options? We didn't want to make the assumption that everybody supports even

479
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,080
 having a recommendation. We didn't want to make that assumption. So we wanted to give

480
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,660
 people a chance to vote yes or no. Do you have it? Then if there's the majority of those

481
00:46:43,660 --> 00:46:48,280
 that support having an option, then we'll move on to what are your top two choices?

482
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:57,920
 >> Patrick, there needs to be an opportunity for some citizen involvement. How that looks,

483
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,840
 you know, I'm going to chime in later. But I do think there needs to be some citizen

484
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:17,080
 involvement. Thank you. We've lost your audio, Patrick. >> Okay. Am I back? Okay. Jamell?

485
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:27,160
 >> Yes, you're back. >> Okay. Thank you. All this technology. Jamell?

486
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:37,200
 >> As far as the oversight committee goes, it's sort of hard for me to think of citizens

487
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:46,720
 just joining in and saying what they think they know about situations other than what

488
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:58,680
 the officers are trained to do. So I'm a little in between on this right now. So we're going

489
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,280
 to -- >> Okay.

490
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:09,960
 >> He froze. >> Yeah. I think we lost you there. Yeah,

491
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:19,000
 you're back. >> He froze again. He did the willy again.

492
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,920
 >> I'm sorry. >> That's okay. That was to all of us. So

493
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,840
 you were sharing that you're a little -- you're not sure you're a little ambivalent. Anything

494
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:35,400
 else to share, Jamell? >> I can't hear you guys. Can you hear me?

495
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:42,400
 >> Yes. >> Okay. You can hear me. Okay. Like I said,

496
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:49,080
 I just have some more -- I have to do some more thinking about what part the civilian

497
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:57,040
 oversight committee will hold -- how they will be interactive with the police department

498
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:06,920
 with this. So that's my thoughts. >> Okay. Thank you. Cedric? Cedric with us?

499
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:17,800
 Did we lose Cedric? I don't see him. I'll move on. Maybe he'll join us, rejoin us. Cameron

500
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:34,800
 is out. Cheryl? >> I'm here. You know, I'm at option one, a part-time monitor, because

501
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:40,720
 I don't think we have enough incidents or a bigger department, a big department to have

502
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:52,960
 a full-time person. Where we are with community -- I'm just a little hesitant about community

503
00:49:52,960 --> 00:50:01,240
 involvement because it takes certain points of expertise in policing, and I'm just not

504
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:11,720
 there with that. But the monitor, yes. >> Okay. All right. Thanks, Cheryl. Yancey,

505
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:15,760
 your thoughts, please. >> I have a couple of thoughts about it. We

506
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,320
 just voted on number two, which was transparency, so we're going to be more transparent so the

507
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:26,960
 citizens will have a chance to see, like, really what's going on. And like what was

508
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:33,160
 just mentioned by Madam Chair and as well as Jamil, as far as citizens being on it,

509
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:38,560
 they're going to have to have some type of training or something to even know the line

510
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,240
 of work or the reasoning behind situations occur. It's just like being a judge. You got

511
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:51,520
 to be an attorney before you can be a judge. If we do go along the lines of a civilian

512
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:57,520
 review board, our civilian review committee, I know the citizens want to be a part of that.

513
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:04,080
 However, in my opinion, I believe the citizens will also be upset when some of the information

514
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:10,800
 that they are requiring or wanting, they're not allowed to see it by law. So therefore,

515
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:17,040
 more along the lines of option one or option two for the monitor, that way they are falling

516
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:22,360
 directly under the city manager of the chief who does have access. However, as the chief

517
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:28,400
 mentioned before, and as well as other topics, in Denton, we really just don't have that

518
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:34,080
 many incidents to go on. So is that even going to justify the cost of having somebody on

519
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,720
 retainer or something like that along those lines? So that's where I'm at on it right

520
00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:41,760
 now, but it's just more talking to be done.

521
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:49,240
 Okay. All right. Thanks, Yancey. Pam? Before you get started, Pam, just to let you know,

522
00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:55,680
 Patrick, Cedric did, he is on a bi-phone. Okay. We'll come back. Okay. Pam, can we

523
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:05,160
 go ahead? Yeah, why don't we go to Cedric. Yeah. Cedric, go ahead. Cedric, are you there?

524
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:16,480
 You're muted. He shows that, there you go. I'll wait for Ms. Pam to speak and then I'll

525
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:23,080
 speak out to her. Okay. Thanks, Cedric. Pam? Thank you, Cedric. I do think we need a citizens

526
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:30,320
 committee. I think they can be trained, but I am concerned about the cost because chief

527
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:35,960
 has said we don't have enough incidents to have a full-time monitor. So, I mean, I thought

528
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:42,600
 about number one, but then I thought about number five. So, I mean, again, I'm concerned

529
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:49,800
 because I don't want to incur more costs for the city. So maybe a part-time monitor. I

530
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:58,040
 think, you know, maybe I need more education as to what we need, but I do think we need

531
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:03,760
 it. I think we need citizen involvement and I do think we need it. Okay. Thanks, Pam.

532
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:12,640
 Cedric? I don't think that we have enough incidents to actually have an oversight committee

533
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:19,460
 and then to spend unnecessary money on the monitor. Just a question, could we consider

534
00:53:19,460 --> 00:53:27,360
 using this same use of force committee without creating a whole other committee? And if anything

535
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:39,800
 is needed, just actually use this committee that's already been created. I'm not sure

536
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:44,880
 who wants to field the response to that question. Todd, I don't know if you want to. Yeah, I

537
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:50,880
 certainly can. This is more of an ad hoc committee. The idea would be that it would be disbanded

538
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:56,880
 after the recommendation report to council. That being said, I don't think there's anything

539
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:03,640
 wrong with some kind of an annual report to be tied in to kind of check that box. It's

540
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:09,800
 something the chief's already offered to do. But I think if anything's possible in terms

541
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:14,080
 of establishing a committee, I think that's something that we could talk to the council

542
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:19,140
 about the long run. But this one had a very short life on it in terms of just getting

543
00:54:19,140 --> 00:54:24,440
 through this report. But what that committee looks like down the road, if we want to sit

544
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,840
 down in this kind of a venue, we can kind of change that recommendation if you want

545
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:38,840
 to. Thanks, Todd. Thank you, sir. I'll let you hold my vote at this time. Yeah, and absolutely.

546
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,720
 You're not voting right now. We're just trying to get your thoughts. We'll go back through

547
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:46,680
 the whole list for the vote, yes or no, on whether you want to even consider some type

548
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:52,960
 of civilian oversight without declaring which one. So thank you, Cedric and Pam. Gary, you're

549
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:59,320
 up next. Thank you, Patrick. I think last week, Michael Kroening proved to us that there's

550
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:04,840
 expertise within the city to provide viable solutions. I think number two, transparency

551
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:10,320
 and accountability. And number three, civilian oversight really do go hand in hand with each

552
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:16,280
 other and reinforce each other. I have tremendous trust in city staff to present a solution

553
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:23,200
 that's both cost effective as well as transparent, accountable, and provides an additional level

554
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:38,280
 of civilian outside of the chain of command oversight. Okay, thanks, Gary. Willie? I don't

555
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:49,880
 think that an oversight committee, for me, is necessary. And one of the examples of two,

556
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:57,000
 the chief seems to, he's a little different than most chiefs you've even had here in Denton

557
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:07,000
 and chiefs that I see around the metro plants, in that he seems to be very honest and forthright.

558
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:13,680
 He just comes out with what he thinks is what we should do. He tells me. So I don't see

559
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:21,360
 the need for an oversight committee if that's happening. And so in the one example, we had

560
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:25,600
 one demonstration, somebody was yelling that they couldn't file a report, they couldn't

561
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:31,400
 file a report, and he was there. He was in front of the police department. He took that

562
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:38,960
 person inside right then into the police station, helped them file a report, and then the person

563
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:44,400
 came out with the report in a hand. So we got that kind of leadership. Why would we

564
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,520
 need someone looking over his shoulder to tell him what's going on or ask him what's

565
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:54,800
 going on? He's never refused to tell me what's going on. I just go ask him. So I don't see

566
00:56:54,800 --> 00:57:02,120
 the need. Okay. Thanks, Willie. Bo? Yeah, I think some sort of, you know, recommending

567
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,320
 the council some sort of additional layer of transparency and accountability would be

568
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:13,640
 wise. You know, like many of you, I'm sort of ambivalent back and forth between these

569
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:19,620
 five options that we were given and even whether or not, you know, is there a difference between

570
00:57:19,620 --> 00:57:24,280
 the citizen involvement or panel on number four and number two and three? So until I

571
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:29,960
 get some of those questions clarified, it's harder for me to recommend one of them in

572
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:38,800
 particular, even a hybrid of them. But I think at least what I've sensed and heard from Todd

573
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:44,480
 and Chief Dixon is just there's been benefit to this sort of citizen engagement at this

574
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,000
 sort of level, especially as you guys have equipped us to think through some things from

575
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,920
 a citizen perspective, but also connected in with what we didn't know about the police

576
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:59,240
 department. And so in some form or fashion, I think that would be fruitful to continue

577
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:05,680
 on and promote into the future. But the form of it I'm not as clear on. Okay. All right.

578
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:17,080
 Thanks, Bo. Next person up is Rhonda. I don't think I've ever been as ambivalent about a

579
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:22,400
 public policy proposal in my entire life. I think a lot of that is, I don't think we

580
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:29,320
 should spend the money for a police monitor. I think we're very fortunate in having Chief

581
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:36,280
 Dixon or anyone who might be like him. So I have a lot of trust in that the right thing

582
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:45,000
 will be done. I think I appreciate exactly what Yancey said about you need to know the

583
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:55,760
 job. On the other hand, there are many people who are expert in conflict resolution who've

584
00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:02,160
 never been police officers. And I think they ought to be listened to and how that listening

585
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:08,520
 should be put into a form. I truly, I don't know, but I think we need to keep talking

586
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:25,720
 about this. How's that? Okay. Thanks, Rhonda. It seemed like Camion. So after Rhonda, I'm

587
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:31,480
 not sure. Somebody just joined us. I couldn't catch the person's name. Hey, it's me. It's

588
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:36,240
 Camion. Sorry. Oh, there you are. Okay. That's okay. North Texas Giving Day and my job has

589
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:45,800
 a lot of stuff going on. Okay. Okay. So we'll come back to you. Okay, Camion. We'll go back

590
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:51,920
 through the alphabet. Okay. And so Chevion Moore, was that? He was absent. He was absent.

591
00:59:51,920 --> 01:00:06,760
 Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry about that. Travis. Okay. So I'm kind of feeling the same way

592
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:13,280
 that many of the others before me have said. I just don't know what this committee, the

593
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:23,040
 oversight committee would look like. One of my main concerns, like I mentioned last week,

594
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:32,400
 was if this committee were to be created, I do feel that there should be, it should

595
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:38,000
 at least consist of members that do have some kind of background or knowledge in the profession,

596
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:49,920
 in the job field, to be able to pass judgment on what it is that police officers do. And

597
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:56,280
 I think I was looking over the, I was looking over the other agencies that we were presented

598
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:01,480
 with from last week. And I think one that kind of caught my eye was the San Antonio

599
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:09,840
 model because they, according to their model, it had like half civilian and half law enforcement

600
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:16,400
 background. So of any type of committee, if it were to be an oversight committee, I think

601
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:25,640
 I would be leaning more towards that type of model. And yeah, I mean, that's just my

602
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:31,440
 biggest thing, just making sure that people are educated and have some kind of knowledge

603
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:37,800
 of the field and what goes on other than just to have civilians that may or may not have

604
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:46,440
 any knowledge and just go on their good or their feelings at the current situation.

605
01:01:46,440 --> 01:02:00,480
 Okay. Thanks, Travis. Lillian is not here. Well, Angela?

606
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:08,560
 I do think you can bring a group of people together who don't all have law enforcement

607
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:18,440
 background and that group can support the efforts of the police. I don't see this as

608
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:24,240
 a group against the police or passing judgment on the police, but a group of professionals

609
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:28,880
 that are able to bring a different lens or perspective when you're looking at a particular

610
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:39,200
 situation. And in that sense, I would like to see some type of civilian committee work

611
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:46,920
 in collaboration with the police department. While I agree with everyone that Chief Dixon

612
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:53,240
 is doing an amazing job for the city of Denver, he may not always be here or he may. And so

613
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:58,520
 we really shouldn't make our decisions based on him sitting in that seat because one day

614
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:04,600
 it could be somebody else sitting in that seat who maybe doesn't present themselves

615
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:12,880
 or have the same unifying properties that our current chief has. So from that perspective,

616
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:19,500
 I would like to see some type of civilian oversight committee considered. I definitely

617
01:03:19,500 --> 01:03:25,920
 agree that there would need to be some training for that committee. But I think a group of

618
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:33,200
 professionals with a variety of professional qualities could be of support to the police

619
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:37,920
 department in that oversight role. That's my thought.

620
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,960
 Okay. Thanks, Angela. Katina?

621
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:52,360
 I think that it needs to be a combination of one, two, and three. Basically, I'm thinking

622
01:03:52,360 --> 01:04:05,000
 an annual audit review where if anyone on the committee determines that or basically

623
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:11,280
 wants to inquire about an issue, then it can be reviewed. But also I think that defendants

624
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:17,280
 should be able to, or a defendant advocate, whether it was a family member or an attorney,

625
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:24,660
 should be able to request it after all of the other complaint protocols have been exhausted.

626
01:04:24,660 --> 01:04:31,860
 So I'm sure that there is some type of protocol for complaints for citizens. But after that's

627
01:04:31,860 --> 01:04:39,140
 been exhausted, because that would fall under just the regular duties of the police department.

628
01:04:39,140 --> 01:04:44,920
 So once those that have been exhausted and the defendant would want to request an audit,

629
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:55,680
 then it would fall to this committee, which is a combination of officers, those who are

630
01:04:55,680 --> 01:05:03,320
 knowledgeable of law, as well as citizens. But yeah, so does that make sense?

631
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,080
 Okay. Everybody?

632
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:08,560
 Thanks Katina. Thank you.

633
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:12,440
 Dawn is not here. Jamie's not here. So I'm going to go back through the alphabet because

634
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:21,360
 we had some people that joined us. Let's see. Cameon. So I'm not sure if you caught the

635
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:26,560
 discussion here is to just offer a brief statement about your point of view about the civilian

636
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:30,560
 oversight board. Once we get through everybody, then we're going to have a vote on whether

637
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,800
 or not yes or no, the group wants to even consider a recommendation, and then we'll

638
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,840
 have another vote about the top two choices by each committee member. So right now it's

639
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:42,560
 just about a brief statement about your thoughts about a civilian oversight board, and you're

640
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:43,960
 on Cameon.

641
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:50,160
 I'm ready to be on. Though I have missed some of the discussion, I'm trying to see these

642
01:05:50,160 --> 01:06:03,120
 hybrids. Okay. So I think that a combination of probably two, three and five or something

643
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:09,880
 like that. I need to look at it a little bit more, but I am leaning, not even leaning.

644
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:16,160
 I adamantly think that we need a community oversight board. I am, if there's a vote,

645
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:23,920
 I'm going that direction. I think one of the main reasons for me is because in listening

646
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:29,400
 from the folks at DPD on these calls, one of the things they have really wanted to do

647
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:34,640
 is find a way to bridge the gap between what's happening at the police department and with

648
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:43,240
 the community members, and I think that this is an actual way you can do that. I think

649
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:52,200
 I sent some recommendations about the oversight board, like 20 bullet points or something.

650
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:57,760
 I don't feel that law enforcement necessarily has to be on the committee to engage with

651
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:04,960
 the committee. I think that there is a way that there can be an advisor from law enforcement

652
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:13,840
 that's not necessarily a committee seat person. And yeah, I think, and I say that because

653
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:19,000
 the research that we heard said that all the advisory boards that people have, they don't

654
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:26,040
 have police involvement. So I think it would be difficult to create something that doesn't

655
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:31,360
 already exist, but I believe in Denton, and my goal is for us to have a community oversight

656
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:37,480
 board. And if that means that we have to figure out a way for the DPD to work with the community

657
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:42,520
 oversight board, then I think that that's necessary. I think that folks could, from

658
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:54,440
 the community, could be very much capable of making decisions, synthesizing data, understanding

659
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:59,280
 what's being given to them. I use this committee as an example. Many of us came here without

660
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:05,240
 very much working knowledge about DPD, the policies, the complaint process, and all of

661
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:09,920
 that. We were able to understand it and make great suggestions and recommendations that

662
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:14,000
 the police department's already been implementing. So I think that this could be an extension

663
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:19,640
 of that. I agree with Angela that we can't just think about the community oversight board

664
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:26,160
 from a perspective of Denton doesn't need it now because we don't know what could happen.

665
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:30,320
 I say at my job, what if I got abducted by aliens? Because I'm not trying to put any

666
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:35,040
 bad karma out there on myself. So what if I got abducted by aliens? What if Chief Dixon

667
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:39,960
 was abducted by aliens? Who's going to fill the role? How do we ensure that the next person

668
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:44,600
 that comes in uplifts the legacy that he's created? Is what it sounds like folks on this

669
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:50,360
 committee really are leaning into. So I think that this is something that we could frame

670
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:55,400
 for the betterment of Denton throughout history moving forward. That's not just about right

671
01:08:55,400 --> 01:09:00,900
 now and the time we're in. It's for much more than that. And I want us to think forward

672
01:09:00,900 --> 01:09:05,120
 more than that about our kids, grandkids, children that we don't even know are going

673
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:09,960
 to exist in this town and the ways that we can support those with a community oversight

674
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:19,080
 board. So I think those are my main thoughts. Thanks, Camion. And I think, Lillian, I think

675
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:24,280
 you were the person we missed the first time around. Yes, thank you. Of course. Apologies

676
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:28,480
 for being late, but I was listening since the beginning of the meeting. I just want

677
01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:34,680
 to say, Camion pretty much said everything that I feel. I was sad to hear all the comments

678
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:39,480
 about people thinking that someone has to have a background in policing to be able to

679
01:09:39,480 --> 01:09:43,520
 serve on such a committee. I am in favor of creating an oversight committee. I think we

680
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:48,560
 desperately need it. I think not just for the police department, but just for the community

681
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:55,280
 in general. But I echo everything that she just said. I trust Chief Dixon wholeheartedly.

682
01:09:55,280 --> 01:10:01,080
 But like she mentioned, I mean, we don't know what can happen. Even the conversation about

683
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:06,680
 the press release is early or the press conference is in line. It's not just for the family of

684
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:11,640
 the victim. It's for the community at large. I do want to just echo what I said last week.

685
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,080
 I think people that are going to be appointed to this committee, obviously, there's going

686
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:20,000
 to be a list of qualifications, a list of recommendations of people. And just like we

687
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,520
 trust our city council, like we trust our school board, people that don't have a background

688
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:28,360
 in education, but are serving in that capacity, people can still learn and still serve. I

689
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:32,320
 am not in favor of the police monitor. In my opinion, that's just another person that

690
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:35,400
 works for the police department. That's another person that's on payroll. And so what's the

691
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,160
 point of that? The whole point that we're trying to make is that we're trying to bring

692
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:43,460
 people from the outside, the community, to represent the voices of the community that

693
01:10:43,460 --> 01:10:48,200
 are not always heard. And so my vote is definitely going to be for an oversight committee. And

694
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:55,800
 I'm leaning towards five and two. Okay. Did I miss anybody on that round? Okay, so now

695
01:10:55,800 --> 01:11:01,080
 we're going to take Rhonda. Yeah, I don't know if this is a point of order information,

696
01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:08,400
 but you know, I think we're using different words that are conceptually and practically

697
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:16,120
 different. I hear oversight, advisory, community connections, all of these things going on.

698
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:20,760
 And I see those as all very different. So while we're thinking about this, I think we

699
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:26,080
 need more clarity in our own minds about what we're talking about. Thank you.

700
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:35,560
 Thanks, Rhonda. Comments about Rhonda's point there, and maybe to reflect on your presentation

701
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:39,360
 last week, Bo? Yeah, I mean, that was kind of the question

702
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:43,400
 I brought up earlier about, or at least I was trying to, what Rhonda did was better

703
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:48,720
 than what I'd said. But the citizen panel, what's the difference? And Mr. Cronin, maybe

704
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:53,280
 you can speak to this or whoever had a hand in putting this together. But like the difference

705
01:11:53,280 --> 01:12:02,200
 between the citizen panel on number four, and then the citizen advisory board, and then

706
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:06,220
 the citizen panel on number two and three, like what's the difference between those?

707
01:12:06,220 --> 01:12:13,320
 They're all citizen involved, but is it a different function? What's the same? What's

708
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:20,060
 different about those three citizen groups? Sure. On number two, that was specifically

709
01:12:20,060 --> 01:12:27,680
 created by the San Antonio, excuse me, police meet and confer agreement, where they created

710
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:34,040
 it as part of the police department. I think the panels that we're talking about would

711
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:39,000
 not be part of the police department, would not report directly to the chief. They would

712
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:44,320
 be separate and independent. So that's really what the difference, when I use the word advisory

713
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:50,680
 board to the chief, I was talking as really kind of a part of the department, whereas

714
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:55,880
 the other boards are totally independent of the police department. Does that clarify it

715
01:12:55,880 --> 01:13:00,160
 a little better? Yeah. So number three, could you do the same thing? So what would number

716
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:08,400
 three be then? Who would they report to? Who would they connect to? And number four. Yeah,

717
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:13,200
 the annual audit would be the police department would just do an annual audit and we could

718
01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:20,040
 have a citizen panel or citizen participation as part of that audit. So if the chief wanted

719
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:25,760
 to put together a 10 person panel to do an audit of the department, he could include

720
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:31,880
 some civilians on that. So that would be part of the police department, but just having

721
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:39,660
 some citizen volunteers to participate as panel members. And then number four. Number

722
01:13:39,660 --> 01:13:45,920
 four is what Austin has right now, which is a hybrid where they have a police monitor

723
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:51,140
 who was actually a city employee that reports to the city manager. And then they have a

724
01:13:51,140 --> 01:14:01,880
 citizen panel that you just see here. They are selected by, they just put it into place.

725
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:10,600
 So actually I don't have it right in front of me, my PowerPoint from last week, but they

726
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:17,080
 are not city employees. I believe they're either appointed by the council or the city

727
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:24,560
 manager. I just don't remember offhand which reporting to the police. No, they make recommendations

728
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:30,240
 to the chief, but they are totally separate and not part of the police department. So

729
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:37,480
 that's kind of a hybrid model that has a city employee as well as a citizen panel. So the

730
01:14:37,480 --> 01:14:42,720
 citizen number four is not the exact same as the citizen panel on number five though.

731
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:48,120
 Sorry, that's my last. No, because number five would be just a panel only, no police

732
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:54,880
 monitor at all. And the police monitor in Austin, for example, kind of helps guide the

733
01:14:54,880 --> 01:15:01,440
 panel when the panel does reviews, the monitors kind of like the facilitator. So it's a hybrid

734
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:07,080
 kind of system. But the panel itself and number four, if they didn't have the monitor, which

735
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:10,240
 I know is part of the point, that's what makes a difference. But that panel would be very

736
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:17,120
 similar to number five. Yes. According to the police, it's yes. The panel, the citizen

737
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:25,800
 panels on number two and three are very similar and on four and five. Yes. Okay. Very helpful.

738
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,240
 Okay. Unless there's other questions, I'm going to go ahead and take a roll call voice

739
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:35,680
 vote on this vote is only about whether or not you think that your committee should can

740
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:41,480
 options. So you're not voting on which numbers should go yes or no, but you're supporting

741
01:15:41,480 --> 01:15:45,240
 yes means you think the group should vote on these different options for a civilian

742
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:50,280
 oversight board, whatever that looks like. A no vote means you don't support the group

743
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:53,680
 even voting for it. Okay, we're trying to give people the option. We didn't want to

744
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:58,320
 make the assumption that everybody wants one. That was as evident by the comments that we've

745
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:04,920
 heard. Okay. So yes means you agree to have the next vote, which will be you make some

746
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:09,840
 two choices, but you're not doing that now. Just right now is only yes or no. Yes. You

747
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:16,260
 think the committee should vote for a particular option on the survey oversight board. No means

748
01:16:16,260 --> 01:16:24,120
 there's no more voting. You're not going to consider it. Okay. Is that clear? Yes. All

749
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:42,440
 right. John, you're first up. John Baines. Yes. Jamal. No. Cedric. No. Cameron's not

750
01:16:42,440 --> 01:16:59,880
 here. Camion. Yes. Cheryl. No. Yancey. Oh, I'm sorry, Yancey. Oh, okay. Thanks, Yancey.

751
01:16:59,880 --> 01:17:29,240
 Pam. Yes. Gary. Yes. Willie. No. Bo. Yes. Rhonda. Yes. Chevion's not here. Travis. Yes. I'm

752
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:53,640
 sorry. No. Lillian. Yes. Angela. Yes. Katina. Yes. And Donna Diamond. Donna, she'd voted

753
01:17:53,640 --> 01:18:01,200
 yes, right, Sarah? Yeah, which she had emailed in. And then Jamie, we did not know. So I've

754
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:17,800
 got to say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I count 10 yeses and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 nos.

755
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:22,760
 So majority would say we move on to the next vote, which are you're selecting your top

756
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:29,680
 two options. Try to keep to two, right? Not you like 1 and 2, 3, 4 and 5, and those are

757
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:35,800
 your two options. We're trying to be somewhat clear here to vote for your top two options.

758
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:39,680
 You don't have to prioritize them like my first vote, my second vote, just your top

759
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:45,520
 two. We're trying to make a cut here. This is about some editing, windowing it down because

760
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:50,000
 I'm afraid if we have all five options and you make you vote for one, I think we'd get

761
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:55,320
 five with five votes or five with four votes or what have you. So I'm going to ask to go

762
01:18:55,320 --> 01:19:01,160
 through this again. You've discussed it. What are your top two options? Okay. Just two votes,

763
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:06,200
 your top two options. Okay. We'll see if we can window it down some to a smaller number.

764
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:19,160
 That's what we're trying to do. John, you're up first. Patrick, words are very important.

765
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:29,880
 So I'm struggling with the word and let me tell you why. Committee, please forgive me.

766
01:19:29,880 --> 01:19:37,160
 I don't know if anybody has my particular background, but I was trained to fight in

767
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:50,920
 Vietnam. Okay. So that was a hard experience. I ended up in Germany and I was in Munich

768
01:19:50,920 --> 01:20:00,360
 during the 1972 Olympics when they had the terrorists overtake the Olympics and the soldiers

769
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:07,240
 were called in. I was one of the soldiers there who had to be on the offensive. And

770
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:17,560
 the reason I mention all this is because for me to come in and tell a police officer, I

771
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:24,560
 mean, I don't do their job every day. So I don't like the word oversight, but I think

772
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:29,640
 there needs to be some type of involvement in police activity. So I thank you committee

773
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:34,440
 for allowing me to have that preface. Okay. So I don't like the word oversight, but to

774
01:20:34,440 --> 01:20:42,040
 be involved somehow is what I'm looking at. So with that being said, I would have as an

775
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:52,800
 option, please forgive me here to see. It would probably be number four or number five.

776
01:20:52,800 --> 01:21:08,240
 All right. Jamel. Thanks, John. I would go with number three or number four. Okay. Cedric.

777
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:31,200
 Are you there? We'll come back to you, Cedric. Camion. I'm going to have to go with number

778
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:42,500
 two or number four. Okay. Two and four. Remember you're selecting two. Okay. Yeah. All right.

779
01:21:42,500 --> 01:22:02,040
 Thanks, Cheryl. I would say number one and number two. Okay. Yancey. I'm going to have

780
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:15,600
 to go with definitely number one for one, but one and two. Okay. Thanks, Yancey. Pam.

781
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:33,040
 Two and five. Gary. Two, please. I'm sorry. One and two. One and two. Okay. I missed you.

782
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:52,880
 Willie? Pass. Okay. Bo? Four or two. Rhonda? Two and four, but I feel very strongly about

783
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:59,840
 the use of the language. Are we talking about advisory or oversight? It's a big deal. Okay.

784
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:21,000
 Let's see. Travis? Number two. Okay. Yeah. Just number two. Okay. Let's see. Lillian,

785
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:25,280
 I think you had voted earlier, right? You had sent us an email with number two and five.

786
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:44,840
 Do you want to keep that? Okay. Yes. All right. Angela? Two and four. Katina? Two and three.

787
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:51,480
 Donna had voted number five. She voted by email. I'm going to go back up here. Cedric?

788
01:23:51,480 --> 01:24:00,880
 Number one and two. Has everybody had a chance to vote now? Did I miss anybody? Cheryl, do

789
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:03,920
 we want to take a quick 10 minute break and I'll tally up the votes and come back and

790
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:07,160
 see where we are. I know people have been sitting now about 90 minutes. Yeah, that'll

791
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:18,760
 be fine. Okay. So 10 minutes of biology break. Yes. All right. Go ahead. All right. Thanks,

792
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:24,840
 Cheryl. I'm pretty good at counting that down. Thank you. Okay. So we're back live here.

793
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:28,120
 So let me give you the tally of the votes. It may have been difficult for you to capture.

794
01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:33,200
 I'm just going to go by each option and share with you what the number of votes were. Number

795
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:39,080
 one, the police monitor received four votes. Number two, the advisory board to the chief

796
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:44,600
 received 12 votes. That was the top vote getter. Number three, the annual audit with citizen

797
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:49,720
 participation report to the council by the chief received two votes. Number four, the

798
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:55,200
 hybrid was the second leading vote getter that had six votes, which was monitor and

799
01:24:55,200 --> 01:25:00,000
 a citizen panel that is not part of the police department. And number five, community panel

800
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:04,880
 only received four votes. So the top vote getter, if you have that matrix out, you might

801
01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:09,160
 want to circle that just for the sake of discussion here. The top vote getter was number two with

802
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:15,240
 12 votes, and the second top vote getter was number four with six votes. And then there

803
01:25:15,240 --> 01:25:19,880
 was a break between four and two votes. Now, this is what I would recommend to move forward

804
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:25,780
 since we have some momentum is that now it's to vote on your top choice. And I would consider

805
01:25:25,780 --> 01:25:29,560
 that only number two and four are the options that you're considering since those are the

806
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:39,040
 top two vote getters. We're trying to win on this down. Number two and four, and you'd

807
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:43,920
 vote for only one of those. And then we would see how the vote breaks. If there's a majority,

808
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:48,040
 it might end up being a tie. We just don't know. But I think it's important that you

809
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:53,000
 give best you can a recommendation included in your report to the council for them to

810
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:59,000
 consider. If all of the options are there as we that that's not really practical for

811
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:04,060
 them to consider, you're trying to winnow it down. So if the group is okay with considering

812
01:26:04,060 --> 01:26:08,840
 option two and four, and your opportunity here is to vote for just one of those, and

813
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:14,020
 you would share with me as we do the final vote, which one do you favor for the group

814
01:26:14,020 --> 01:26:20,240
 to consider as its recommendation? Understanding that some of the language here is not perfect,

815
01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:25,500
 polished and packaged. It is what it is at this moment. It's trying to, you know, reflect

816
01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:31,240
 intent and conversations you've all had and practical application the way was discussed

817
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:37,220
 Michael discussed last week. So unless I hear any objections otherwise, I'm just gonna start

818
01:26:37,220 --> 01:26:46,400
 on this. That's good. Sure. I'm sorry, Lillian. Go ahead. I was just gonna ask. So because

819
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:51,480
 you said that four and five are two two votes away right from each other. Six and four,

820
01:26:51,480 --> 01:26:57,240
 Lillian? No, no, no. Number four has six votes. That's the second leading vote getter. Right.

821
01:26:57,240 --> 01:27:01,760
 And number five had four votes. Right. Okay. But the only difference between four and five

822
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,760
 is that four has a monitor attached to it. And five is without the monitor, but still

823
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:16,360
 the panel, right? Um, can you repeat that, Lillian? I'm sorry. Four is basically like

824
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:21,280
 number five, but it has a monitor attached. Number four does include the monitor. Correct.

825
01:27:21,280 --> 01:27:25,600
 Okay, but number five is just like number four, except without the monitor. That's the

826
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:31,000
 way I understand. Is that right, Michael? Yes. Okay, so my only my my only suggestion

827
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:35,480
 of why we would include number five as a voting option would be because if council decides

828
01:27:35,480 --> 01:27:40,040
 that they like the option, but they don't want to attach a cost and the cost of the

829
01:27:40,040 --> 01:27:44,160
 monitor, then I would like them to be given an opportunity to say, Okay, I like number

830
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:47,340
 four, but we don't want to allocate money towards it. So we want to go with the number

831
01:27:47,340 --> 01:27:55,800
 five, which is the panel advisory, right? I was going to say number one Lillian also

832
01:27:55,800 --> 01:28:02,100
 had four. And it's the same as number four option four, except that it doesn't have the

833
01:28:02,100 --> 01:28:11,480
 citizen panel. We just but we just voted that we do want citizen input. Right. Yeah, I'm

834
01:28:11,480 --> 01:28:22,280
 just I'm I'm clear on my mind around it with you is what I'm Yeah. Yeah. I'd like the option

835
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:30,040
 to include number five. I think also at first glance, I assumed a hybrid could be a mix

836
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:36,680
 of a couple of these things. And with a closer look at the monitor, which I don't necessarily

837
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:42,600
 think the city needs, I would like the option to vote for an option that doesn't have a

838
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:54,680
 monitor. Okay, I need to hear from some other people, right? Uh, Nancy, I think we've already

839
01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:59,600
 took a vote from the panel. So the vote has is carried. Everybody had their voice and

840
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:09,840
 everybody had a vote. So now we're down to the run off, which is two options. Yeah, I

841
01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:13,760
 mean, if we're only gonna exclude number three, which only received two votes, you know, now

842
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:18,840
 we're back to we have four options. And I'm not sure, you know, then we're gonna divide

843
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:22,200
 and then everybody there's if several of them get three or four votes, you don't have a

844
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:29,480
 recommendation. This is not a perfect process, right? I'm trying to be supportive of this.

845
01:29:29,480 --> 01:29:34,760
 I don't know, Todd, what your thoughts are that if they winnow it down to two, they only

846
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:39,000
 consider two, but those that maybe didn't make the vote can be included in the report.

847
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:45,440
 So counsel can see all of that. We will. We'll certainly have that record for them that these

848
01:29:45,440 --> 01:29:49,400
 five options were considered. The committee withered it down to these two. And we'll.

849
01:29:49,400 --> 01:29:56,680
 So we'll show them that thought process. So the information here would be included in

850
01:29:56,680 --> 01:30:01,560
 the final report, along with what the voting was and what your top selection was. So those

851
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:05,920
 of you that are concerned that you know, and Council may mix and match these anyway, you're

852
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:09,720
 trying to put your best foot forward with what you think this group will put your top

853
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:14,720
 recommendation is. If it's a little of this, a little of that, a little of that, a little

854
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:19,600
 of this, I think you dilute your whole recommendation where it's all over the place. We're just

855
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:23,720
 trying to run. We're trying to be somewhat just go ahead, Todd. I think a couple of things

856
01:30:23,720 --> 01:30:29,240
 I've heard a couple of different things on the monitor. And first of all, that position,

857
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:32,640
 the whole point of a monitor is it doesn't report to the police chief that would be reporting

858
01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:38,480
 to my office. So, so there isn't that there is that disconnect with the police department.

859
01:30:38,480 --> 01:30:44,360
 The second thing is, is given the caseload that we're talking about and with the monitor,

860
01:30:44,360 --> 01:30:49,760
 you're really not talking about a ton of money there. So anything in terms of saving money,

861
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:54,080
 this is easily put in the budget if we decided to go that way. So I just wanted to disabuse

862
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:59,200
 those two issues. We're not talking a lot of money to bring a police monitor on board.

863
01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:04,040
 There's with the workload here would probably somebody half time or you'd contract out when

864
01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:12,640
 the cases were necessary. Okay. Thanks, Todd, for that clarification. So I'm back to trying

865
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:18,240
 to help the group window this down to your top recommendation. Yeah, John. I'm needing

866
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:26,240
 a little clarification, please, because, you know, that that choice of words, I don't like

867
01:31:26,240 --> 01:31:33,480
 the word oversight, but I feel like the community wants to have an idea of what's going on and

868
01:31:33,480 --> 01:31:40,440
 also have some, some input, possibly sway. I don't know, but some input. So when you

869
01:31:40,440 --> 01:31:49,840
 look at these two options that are there, number two and number four, only number four has

870
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:54,680
 citizen panel. What are those other people come from on number two? How are we getting

871
01:31:54,680 --> 01:32:02,520
 there? What are the people come from? I would say that's, I would think that's a process

872
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:05,720
 that the council would decide about how they're going to be appointing board members, whether

873
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:10,760
 they take applications, but Michael, you were going to say, yeah, and is was mentioned before

874
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:17,000
 for the San Antonio version. I believe it's 14 members, seven of police officers, seven

875
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:23,040
 of citizens. So council could determine that that's the type of makeup they want. So there

876
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:30,880
 is the possibility of having citizens actually on the chief's advisory panel. Thank you for

877
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:36,520
 that clarification.

878
01:32:36,520 --> 01:32:40,560
 And I think one other thing that probably needs to be pointed out to Mr. Bain's point

879
01:32:40,560 --> 01:32:47,080
 was on number two, you're talking about something that can be implemented today. We, there's

880
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:53,320
 obviously tons of details work out option for requires significant negotiation and possibly

881
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:57,680
 opening up the meet and confer contract. So that could be several months, if not years

882
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:05,440
 out. So we tried to, we tried to basically, if you'd look at the require a change to 143,

883
01:33:05,440 --> 01:33:09,800
 those areas where you see a no means they can be implemented quickly. The yes is going

884
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:16,600
 to take significant negotiation, possibly you've got 143 to deal with and also opening

885
01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:21,640
 up the meet and confer contract to even permit that committee to exist. So that's really

886
01:33:21,640 --> 01:33:27,200
 the big difference between two and four.

887
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:36,240
 Good to see Patrick. So pardon me. I mean, may I offer a little suggestion here that the

888
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:44,880
 weight would be towards the citizens rather than the police. Cause I think that's where

889
01:33:44,880 --> 01:33:49,200
 there's a desire there. And once again, I don't like the word oversight. I don't think

890
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:54,640
 we can oversee people that do this job, but we do want to be in the loop. People want

891
01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:57,520
 to be in the loop. They want to know what's going on. They want to feel like they have

892
01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:04,120
 a voice at the table. So however we restructure the language to catch that thought is what

893
01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:09,560
 I think we need to do.

894
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:20,000
 Okay. Comments. So I'm back to where when we can reconvene after the break, which is

895
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:28,400
 to at least consider those top two and see how the vote shakes out. Unless people object,

896
01:34:28,400 --> 01:34:33,200
 we're going to proceed with that. So I'm going to go alphabetically. You're down to number

897
01:34:33,200 --> 01:34:39,000
 two and number four. And I would ask you to identify which one you favor you support as

898
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:43,600
 the sole recommendation from this group from yourself. I'm sorry. We'll see where the numbers

899
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:51,160
 shake out. Okay. We'll see how that works. Um, Mr. Baines, please start us off.

900
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:58,320
 I will go with, uh, option number two with a heavy emphasis on the weighted for the citizen

901
01:34:58,320 --> 01:34:59,320
 input.

902
01:34:59,320 --> 01:35:03,920
 Okay. Thanks, Mr. Baines. Mr. Butler.

903
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:15,380
 I will go with option number two. Okay. Mr. Chambers, is he still with us, Cedric? We'll

904
01:35:15,380 --> 01:35:23,840
 come back to Cedric. I don't see him right on. Maybe something got hung up. Uh, Ms. Connor.

905
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:24,840
 Came me on.

906
01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:34,880
 I was trying to get off mute. I think I'm going with option four. Okay. Uh, Cheryl,

907
01:35:34,880 --> 01:35:50,760
 Miss English. Option two. Mr. Green. Option two. Miss Gutierrez. Option two. Mr. Anderson.

908
01:35:50,760 --> 01:36:11,800
 Option two. Mr. Hudspeth. Pass. Mr. Hughes. Option four. Love. Uh, two. Chevion's absent.

909
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:24,320
 Mr. Nicholas Travis. You with it? There you are. Option two. Lillian. Four. Angela. Miss

910
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:39,080
 Ricks. Two, please. Ms. Stone Butler. Katina. Four. Donna had recommended number five and

911
01:36:39,080 --> 01:36:50,080
 via email earlier today. And Jamie is absent. So I can't, um, Cedric, did you join us again?

912
01:36:50,080 --> 01:37:00,160
 Cameron is absent. So everybody give a chance to vote. Looks like it. So I have one, two,

913
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:14,600
 three, four. Nine for number two and four for number four. Is that correct, Sarah? Is

914
01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:23,560
 that what you had? Yes, I believe so. Nine, nine for two. I'm sorry. Nine for two and

915
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:29,800
 four for number four. So number two would see. Yeah. Thank you, sir. Would be the recommendation

916
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:34,200
 of this committee, the advisory board to the chief, part of the police department with

917
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:41,360
 the language spelled out there in the matrix, considering also Mr. Baines. And I'm assuming

918
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:46,840
 just from the spirit of the conversation that maybe recommended the council that the board

919
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:54,080
 members at least be considered about the composition of that board. Maybe it's not 50 50. Somehow

920
01:37:54,080 --> 01:38:01,080
 some some configuration to make sure there's community support and, um, and work out through

921
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:09,800
 the mechanics of all that. So there were also whether one or two abstentions. Yes, I'm sorry,

922
01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:14,640
 Mr. Hudspeth abstained. And then we had some absence. We had some absences. Cameron was

923
01:38:14,640 --> 01:38:23,600
 not here. Chevion was not. And Jamie was not. We also had a number five that was from Donna.

924
01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:41,520
 So okay, so nine people voted for this. That's majority of people that voted. So that would

925
01:38:41,520 --> 01:38:48,760
 seem to be the recommendation. Cheryl, did you have some thoughts about this or want

926
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:56,200
 to contribute there? No, I was trying to get a hold of Cedric to see what he was on. So

927
01:38:56,200 --> 01:39:08,000
 I don't know what happened. Yeah. So the purpose of tonight was try to winnow it down. I think

928
01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:13,480
 you made great progress. It was unanimous vote on the policy and training. I believe

929
01:39:13,480 --> 01:39:18,720
 it was unanimous vote transparency and accountability with some slight tweaking of the language.

930
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:23,680
 And then there was a pretty strong vote 10 to 6 on the civilian oversight board. You

931
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:29,760
 did your voting preferences, the top two, and then you selected as the top recommendation

932
01:39:29,760 --> 01:39:34,480
 number to the advisory board to the chief. And as Todd mentioned, the other options as

933
01:39:34,480 --> 01:39:38,800
 the part of the matrix will be included in the report that's forwarded to council. You

934
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:44,600
 received the draft report from Sarah earlier today. The point of the meeting next week,

935
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:49,240
 I believe, Sarah, you want to share sort of the focus of next week's meeting, if you would,

936
01:39:49,240 --> 01:39:53,800
 please? Sure. So as Patrick just mentioned, I can share it on my screen quickly so you

937
01:39:53,800 --> 01:40:00,280
 see it as well. But it did come through email. Staff has been working on drafting a report

938
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:05,920
 that could really provide an overview of everything. This all of the work that the committee has

939
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:11,800
 done, all of the topics and information that have been covered, as well as links and appendixes

940
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:16,320
 so people can see all of the information that you received as well. Just trying to kind

941
01:40:16,320 --> 01:40:21,520
 of outline that. So staff has done that work, sent that by email this afternoon. If you

942
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:25,680
 do see anything that's missing or if you have comments, please send those to me as quickly

943
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:31,520
 as possible. But by Monday, if possible, we can always make some additions or changes.

944
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:37,520
 But what we will do is following the recommendations made tonight, we will work on drafting the

945
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:42,580
 findings and recommendations section, as well as allow the opportunity for the chair and

946
01:40:42,580 --> 01:40:48,060
 the police chief to include a message. So we'll have a final draft with both those sections

947
01:40:48,060 --> 01:40:53,080
 included to the committee by Monday. And then between Monday and Thursday morning, I would

948
01:40:53,080 --> 01:40:57,280
 ask if you have any feedback, if you could send that to me, and that will help with the

949
01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:03,760
 discussion for next week. Next week Thursday, the committee will vote on that final report

950
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:10,040
 to deliver it to city council. And excuse me, Sarah, Patrick, I did get a hold of Cedric.

951
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:19,640
 He had to jump off to another call. He voted for number two. Okay. So that would make that

952
01:41:19,640 --> 01:41:29,240
 10 votes for number two. Okay, thanks, Cheryl. Cheryl, did you have anything else for the

953
01:41:29,240 --> 01:41:34,520
 purposes of the meeting this evening, or is that a wrap? I think it's a wrap for tonight.

954
01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:39,840
 Okay. Unless Sarah has something else, but I think she already did her part. So we'll

955
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:44,280
 be back again next week. We thank you all for your participation tonight. We know these

956
01:41:44,280 --> 01:41:48,960
 are matters that are near and dear to your heart, and these are significant to the community.

957
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:54,040
 I thought your processing, your discussion was very collaborative, very professional.

958
01:41:54,040 --> 01:41:58,440
 And the voting process can be awkward. So I appreciate your courage to be able to put

959
01:41:58,440 --> 01:42:02,360
 your voice out there about which items you support. And that's what all communities need

960
01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:06,240
 is people that are willing to step forward like all of you are and put their voice to

961
01:42:06,240 --> 01:42:10,480
 the vote about what you believe is the next steps for the community. I know council appreciates

962
01:42:10,480 --> 01:42:14,400
 and I know staff does too, because communities are only as good as the people who choose

963
01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:19,200
 to participate. So your participation is valued and you're all volunteers. So I just wanted

964
01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:23,360
 to kind of applaud, you know, take my hat off to you for having these kinds of conversations

965
01:42:23,360 --> 01:42:27,800
 and winnowing through and indulging me on these processes, trying to make the voting

966
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:32,840
 somewhat simple and straightforward so as not to muddy the water. So if I don't have

967
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:36,680
 anything else, Cheryl, do you want to adjourn the meeting?

968
01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:37,680
 Meeting adjourned.

969
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:40,040
 Thank you. All right. See you all.