WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.760 Good evening, this is the City of Denton Use of Force Ad Hoc Committee meeting Thursday 00:00:08.760 --> 00:00:12.960 September 10, 2020. 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:16.460 We are going to start the meeting. 00:00:16.460 --> 00:00:26.720 We will go first to Sarah and then Sarah will then Sarah will hand it over and we will 00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:29.400 go into our presentation tonight. 00:00:29.400 --> 00:00:30.400 Thank you Sarah. 00:00:30.400 --> 00:00:34.280 Thank you Chair English and good evening committee members. 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:39.120 One second while I share my screen, I'm just going to review a few quick slides with you 00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:43.940 and then I will turn it over to Michael Kronig who is our Deputy City Attorney and he'll 00:00:43.940 --> 00:00:49.600 be reviewing tonight civilian oversight options as requested by the committee. 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:54.280 But before we begin into that presentation, I just wanted to provide a reminder of our 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:56.200 timeline, remaining timeline. 00:00:56.200 --> 00:01:02.800 So we've run over this slide previously, so last Thursday the committee did start to discuss 00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:06.080 some recommendations and common areas and themes. 00:01:06.080 --> 00:01:11.160 We use a facilitator for that meeting, Patrick Ibarra and what he is doing is working on 00:01:11.160 --> 00:01:17.360 framing up for the future discussion on September 17 where the committee will be discussing 00:01:17.360 --> 00:01:21.540 and working on finalizing and prioritizing those recommendations. 00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:24.000 So he is currently completing that work. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:28.800 For tonight, our goal of the committee meeting is to provide information that was requested 00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:34.260 by the committee regarding potential oversight options for use of force for the Denton Police 00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:35.260 Department. 00:01:35.260 --> 00:01:39.000 And the committee may begin some discussions around recommendations, but there will be 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:44.600 no voting on recommendations tonight that will continue on into September 17th regarding 00:01:44.600 --> 00:01:47.160 all of the recommendations. 00:01:47.160 --> 00:01:51.120 At the September 17th meeting, we'll also begin to review a draft framework for the 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:56.920 report and it's likely we may need a quick meeting on Thursday, September 24th for the 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:02.580 committee to review that final draft report and vote on that as well. 00:02:02.580 --> 00:02:08.040 And then our goal is to bring that forward to the city council during their October 5th 00:02:08.040 --> 00:02:09.040 luncheon. 00:02:09.040 --> 00:02:16.160 And before I turn it over to Mike to review what are the potential external civilian oversight 00:02:16.160 --> 00:02:20.860 options, I did want to remind the committee that we have provided information in regards 00:02:20.860 --> 00:02:25.040 to our internal affairs division within the Denton Police Department. 00:02:25.040 --> 00:02:31.520 So in terms of how we internally receive complaints and then investigate those complaints. 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:36.440 So a number of topics and information have been covered and you can see here I tried 00:02:36.440 --> 00:02:43.360 to link from our previous meetings on July 16th, July 23rd and August 16th. 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:48.240 I'll kind of review a little bit of that information on the next three slides just as a way of 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:49.240 reminder. 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:53.280 I also want to point out to the committee that we have in the last few weeks started 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:59.160 a data initiative page for the Denton Police Department that's located at DentonPolice.com 00:02:59.160 --> 00:03:04.800 and it includes a number of reports including some that the committee has seen previously. 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:09.880 And then as well at DentonPolice.com as way of reminder for any citizens that may be watching 00:03:09.880 --> 00:03:15.400 or the general public, you can file complaints online through the website or through the 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:20.040 phone numbers listed here on the screen. 00:03:20.040 --> 00:03:26.040 So at that July 16th meeting, previously Mike had covered some information in regards to 00:03:26.040 --> 00:03:31.620 the Civil Service Act, the Meet and Confer Agreement and then in regards to investigations 00:03:31.620 --> 00:03:34.000 of police misconduct. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:38.640 There are a number of reports and data given during this meeting, it included just the 00:03:38.640 --> 00:03:45.040 general DPD complaints over the last five years, a breakdown of complaints by year, 00:03:45.040 --> 00:03:49.540 complaints by race, disciplinary suspensions by year, sustained complaints and forms of 00:03:49.540 --> 00:03:51.320 corrective action. 00:03:51.320 --> 00:03:57.240 So a number of different things were reviewed with the committee on that July 16th date. 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:03.560 Over the five-year period, we've had 539 complaints received and that's both internal and external 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:10.360 representing about 0.1% of the calls or contacts for Denton Police Department during that same 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:12.240 time period. 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:17.080 There were a total of 18 complaints during that five-year period that related to use 00:04:17.080 --> 00:04:23.000 of force and tasers and you can see that broken out here in regards to 14 for use of force 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:25.080 and four for taser. 00:04:25.080 --> 00:04:29.440 During that committee meeting on July 16th, the committee expressed if more information 00:04:29.440 --> 00:04:36.440 could be provided regarding those 18 complaints and incidents and we actually came back that 00:04:36.440 --> 00:04:42.640 following week on July 23rd and provided more information as legally permissible. 00:04:42.640 --> 00:04:47.080 And so that's this report you see here on the screen, just kind of a screenshot to remind 00:04:47.080 --> 00:04:51.980 you it had some summary information in regards to each one of those complaints including 00:04:51.980 --> 00:04:55.520 the disposition of that complaint. 00:04:55.520 --> 00:05:01.160 Also accompanying that report was the training dispositions as well for those complaints 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:04.520 that were sustained. 00:05:04.520 --> 00:05:09.920 And then further on August 13th in your backup, we provided a report with more information 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:14.080 and there was just some general information in regards to how the Internal Affairs Division 00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:17.000 has been restructured to enhance accountability. 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:23.560 So just kind of a before and after October 2018 and that's when Chief Dixon took command 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:25.240 of the Denton Police Department. 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:32.000 As you can see, a number of steps were taken to improve the processes and the accountability 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:37.280 and just by way of providing some information and a data point, you can see the total number 00:05:37.280 --> 00:05:44.240 of complaints from 2017 to 2019, including going down to disciplinary suspensions and 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:46.640 then counseling and reprimands. 00:05:46.640 --> 00:05:51.680 So it may have been a result of some of those improved processes and increased accountability 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:55.320 within the Denton Police Department. 00:05:55.320 --> 00:06:02.680 So as the committee starts to look at part two, regards to use of force review and transparency, 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:05.440 a couple of questions for the committee to consider. 00:06:05.440 --> 00:06:09.080 On this first question, we started to have the committee started to have some discussion 00:06:09.080 --> 00:06:15.560 around last week in regards to recommendations to enhance reporting of information and transparency 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:18.240 of that information to the public. 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:22.040 And then secondly, does the committee think civilian oversight is needed? 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:25.920 And if so, in what form that is allowed? 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:30.840 And so at this time, I'll turn it over to Mike Kroening, who will provide more information 00:06:30.840 --> 00:06:34.640 to the committee. 00:06:34.640 --> 00:06:35.640 Thank you, Sarah. 00:06:35.640 --> 00:06:42.400 Let me see if I can share this with everyone. 00:06:42.400 --> 00:06:50.140 Hey, Willie, can you put your camera on mute? 00:06:50.140 --> 00:06:57.760 Okay. 00:06:57.760 --> 00:07:03.600 Let me start out first with you folks may be asking what experience do I have with oversight 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:07.700 that even qualifies me to talk about this. 00:07:07.700 --> 00:07:14.080 When I joined the city attorney's office in Austin in 2000, March of 2000, the city had 00:07:14.080 --> 00:07:21.200 just finished a citizen focus group on oversight for the police department. 00:07:21.200 --> 00:07:25.720 They came up with a template for oversight. 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:31.840 We were sitting down with the police association at that time, and we were going to make oversight 00:07:31.840 --> 00:07:38.220 part of the meet and confer agreement that we were negotiating at that time. 00:07:38.220 --> 00:07:45.180 There were questions about whether citizen oversight had to be negotiated in the contract, 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:49.320 because if you remember, I was talking about those confidential files. 00:07:49.320 --> 00:07:55.300 So we determined in 2000 that we were going to make oversight part of meet and confer 00:07:55.300 --> 00:07:57.260 agreement. 00:07:57.260 --> 00:08:09.220 And my job was to take that template and then basically write every article that was dealing 00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:11.920 with oversight in the contract. 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:21.280 So I worked, I was the city attorney's representative on five meet and confer contract teams between 00:08:21.280 --> 00:08:24.640 2000 and 2018. 00:08:24.640 --> 00:08:30.800 My job was to write the oversight articles for each one of those contracts. 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:37.600 And then if the police association filed a grievance challenging something that was being 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:44.080 done in oversight, my job was to represent the city and defend that process. 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:48.800 So I've been involved in oversight and how it's related to state law and a meet and confer 00:08:48.800 --> 00:08:50.480 agreement for 20 years. 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.280 So that's my background on oversight. 00:08:54.280 --> 00:08:58.920 As Sarah pointed out, one thing, actually a couple of questions I'd like you to keep 00:08:58.920 --> 00:09:01.600 in mind when I do this presentation. 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:06.240 The first one is, as she said, do we even need oversight? 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:09.400 That's I think the big question, do we need it? 00:09:09.400 --> 00:09:13.800 And two, if you think we need it, what form should it take? 00:09:13.800 --> 00:09:18.040 Should it be, and there's other cities, and I'll go into it a little bit, like Dallas 00:09:18.040 --> 00:09:26.480 and Fort Worth and Austin that have a police monitor, one person with the staff, or should 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:33.760 it be a civilian review board, all the volunteers, or should it be a combination of the two? 00:09:33.760 --> 00:09:37.040 So the first question is, do we need it? 00:09:37.040 --> 00:09:41.060 Second question is, if we do, what form should it take? 00:09:41.060 --> 00:09:46.960 And then a third question should be, what do you envision oversight doing? 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:50.040 Is it simply reviewing internal affairs investigations? 00:09:50.040 --> 00:09:55.120 Do you think they should actually have the authority to do their own investigation with 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:57.360 subpoena power? 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:01.240 So those are the kind of questions that I'd just like you to keep in mind as I go through 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:06.120 this. 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:13.760 This presentation, the purpose of it is to discuss common goals of civilian oversight 00:10:13.760 --> 00:10:15.880 of law enforcement. 00:10:15.880 --> 00:10:21.320 I'm going to compare some of the civilian oversight in different Texas cities. 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:28.880 We did look at other cities around the country, but every city, every state has different 00:10:28.880 --> 00:10:34.000 laws, different contracts, so I'm focusing on the Texas cities. 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.040 I think that's really what's more relevant. 00:10:37.040 --> 00:10:42.480 Then going to talk about the limitations on civilian oversight for the Denton Police Department 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:48.520 that are imposed by Texas Local Government Code Chapter 143, and then the meet and confer 00:10:48.520 --> 00:10:52.560 agreement that the city has with the Denton Police Officers Association. 00:10:52.560 --> 00:10:57.480 And then the last part, I'm going to talk about potential models of civilian oversight 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:02.720 for the police department and kind of the pros and cons and what I think we can and 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:08.640 can't do. 00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:14.480 Common goals of citizen oversight, the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:21.720 Enforcement, NACo, that's their acronym, has identified the following common goals. 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:29.160 They are one, to ensure that the police complaint process is accessible to all and that there 00:11:29.160 --> 00:11:33.520 are few, if any, barriers to the filing of complaints. 00:11:33.520 --> 00:11:39.360 That can involve how complaints are taken, putting out that information in different 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:41.560 languages, that type of thing. 00:11:41.560 --> 00:11:47.880 Second goal is to ensure that investigations are fair and thorough, the findings are reasonable, 00:11:47.880 --> 00:11:50.200 and discipline is appropriate. 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:54.200 The third goal is to improve public confidence in the police. 00:11:54.200 --> 00:12:01.880 Fourth, to enhance the transparency of police organizations by publicly reporting on the 00:12:01.880 --> 00:12:05.720 police efforts and holding officers accountable. 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:12.120 Five, to improve the policies, practices, training, and management of law enforcement 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:19.840 agencies by analyzing patterns and complaints and other police-related data. 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:25.000 Sixth goal is to deter officers from engaging in misconduct through the creation of more 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:31.640 effective and consistent investigation and disciplinary processes. 00:12:31.640 --> 00:12:36.800 Seven is to reduce legal liability associated with officer misconduct. 00:12:36.800 --> 00:12:43.800 Eight, to improve the public's understanding of police policy, training, and practices 00:12:43.800 --> 00:12:50.280 through community outreach and other avenues such as mediation of citizen complaints. 00:12:50.280 --> 00:12:56.560 And like I did in my last presentation, after I have a slide where we'll stop and see if 00:12:56.560 --> 00:13:06.720 anyone has any questions, Nicole published a webinar about a month ago, and I've brought 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:08.960 this up before. 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:14.480 There's not one size that fits all, and these are the statements that they said. 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:21.560 The complexities of social and political contexts make identifying successful practices employed 00:13:21.560 --> 00:13:29.000 in one jurisdiction transferring them to another a challenging and unreliable task fraught 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:35.040 with potential errors of interpretation and extrapolation. 00:13:35.040 --> 00:13:42.160 Then they said, "Jurisdiction should focus on the best fit rather than best practices 00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:46.360 when considering how to structure civilian oversight." 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:49.520 And I think this last one is real important. 00:13:49.520 --> 00:13:55.520 It is impossible to suggest that any one model of oversight is better than another. 00:13:55.520 --> 00:14:03.640 Each jurisdiction must evaluate its own police agency, its culture, its leadership, its overall 00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:10.320 current capacity to police itself, and its future potential in that regard before choosing 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:15.080 the most appropriate form of oversight that will have the highest likelihood of success 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:17.040 over time. 00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:21.520 So that kind of goes back to what I said, there isn't one size that fits all. 00:14:21.520 --> 00:14:27.600 You folks need to review all the information that we've given you and come up with recommendations 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:33.800 that you think work and fit best for Denton, not what works in Austin or Dallas or New York 00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:37.800 City. 00:14:37.800 --> 00:14:46.120 Does anyone have any questions about that kind of background information? 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:51.680 I do, but I'm really sorry because my dog is barking. 00:14:51.680 --> 00:14:54.880 She's wild because someone's doing something outside. 00:14:54.880 --> 00:15:00.880 But you mentioned before that your experience has something to do with, I didn't understand 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:05.880 the agency or contract you were talking about is related to this. 00:15:05.880 --> 00:15:08.280 At the very beginning, I don't understand what that is. 00:15:08.280 --> 00:15:10.360 Could you explain that a little more? 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:11.360 Sure. 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:12.360 Yeah. 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:19.120 The civilian oversight was created and incorporated into the meet and confer agreement that the 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:23.360 City of Austin has with the Austin Police Association. 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:30.720 So the oversight has to follow and comply with the contractual provisions that the association 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:33.000 and the city agreed to. 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:38.480 And a little bit, and a few slides, I'll be talking about some limitations that Denton 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:45.020 has because of provisions that we have in our meet and confer agreement with the police 00:15:45.020 --> 00:15:49.200 association. 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:50.200 Thank you for that explanation. 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:57.820 I also wondered if you could put back up the slides that talked about the goals of a committee 00:15:57.820 --> 00:15:59.320 oversight board. 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:01.920 There were like six or eight. 00:16:01.920 --> 00:16:02.920 Sure. 00:16:02.920 --> 00:16:14.400 Yeah, and this is taken directly from the NACOL webinar that I was referring to. 00:16:14.400 --> 00:16:20.200 Is there anything specific you're focusing on, or you just want me to leave each slide 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:22.160 up for 30 seconds or so? 00:16:22.160 --> 00:16:23.160 No. 00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:30.320 There was one slide about the goals of an oversight board. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.280 And let me see. 00:16:32.280 --> 00:16:34.280 Is the slide up? 00:16:34.280 --> 00:16:36.560 I don't see, we don't see any slides. 00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:37.560 Let me see. 00:16:37.560 --> 00:16:39.480 You might have to share your screen at the bottom. 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:40.480 Yeah. 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:41.480 Let me do this again. 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:45.960 Is it up now? 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:46.960 Okay. 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:53.160 And there's three slides, I believe, so I can go through each one if you'd like. 00:16:53.160 --> 00:16:54.160 Okay. 00:16:54.160 --> 00:16:55.840 That would be really helpful. 00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:00.960 I'll just give you all a chance just to read this one again, and then I'll move on to the 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:01.960 other two. 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:15.960 Or if you have any questions about any one of these first four. 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:34.680 I'll go to the next one, and I'll go to the next one. 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:38.880 Actually I guess there was only two slides that dealt with specific goals. 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:43.800 Is there anything specifically about any of those that you have a question about? 00:17:43.800 --> 00:17:50.560 I didn't write these, so I can give you my opinion on what they mean, but I'm just taking 00:17:50.560 --> 00:17:55.020 these directly from their, the NACOL website. 00:17:55.020 --> 00:17:56.120 I didn't have a question. 00:17:56.120 --> 00:18:01.440 I just wanted to be able to refer back to them during the discussion that we have later. 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:02.440 Sure. 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.360 They should be in your packet. 00:18:04.360 --> 00:18:05.360 Okay. 00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:14.800 I'll move on, then, if there's not any other questions on that. 00:18:14.800 --> 00:18:15.800 I'm sorry, Michael. 00:18:15.800 --> 00:18:16.800 I do have a question. 00:18:16.800 --> 00:18:17.800 Yeah. 00:18:17.800 --> 00:18:18.800 Sure, Travis. 00:18:18.800 --> 00:18:25.560 So from your previous experiences, what is the background of the members that are on 00:18:25.560 --> 00:18:32.640 these committees? 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:39.160 One of the slides that I'm going to address a little bit later on, different boards around 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:42.880 the country have different qualifications for people. 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:49.720 What I've seen in a lot of them is you can't be a police officer for that city, obviously. 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:51.660 It kind of makes sense. 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:57.400 You can't have a family member that's a police officer of that jurisdiction. 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.260 Some of them say you can't hold a political office. 00:19:00.260 --> 00:19:02.840 You have to be a resident of the city. 00:19:02.840 --> 00:19:08.240 They will have qualifications that you can't have any pending litigation against the city. 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:15.720 Some of them have restrictions on criminal backgrounds, can't be a convicted felon. 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:24.740 But they try to get people of diverse backgrounds, race, ethnicity, jobs. 00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:32.080 And I'll get to, I think I talked about Houston a little bit, where I go into the different 00:19:32.080 --> 00:19:35.040 types of people that are on their commission there. 00:19:35.040 --> 00:19:41.920 But they try to get a diversity of education and experience and gender, race, all of those 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.000 things. 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:50.320 Anybody else? 00:19:50.320 --> 00:20:04.720 Okay. 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:10.520 The meet and confer contract -- well, I'll start with this first. 00:20:10.520 --> 00:20:17.120 If you remember, when I did my presentation a while ago, I talked about this provision 00:20:17.120 --> 00:20:20.640 of the Texas Local Government Code. 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:27.760 And this was really kind of the big obstacle to any oversight process in the state of Texas 00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:31.960 for cities that have adopted Chapter 143. 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.720 As I mentioned before, the voters have to approve it. 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:42.120 The voters did approve Chapter 143 for Denton years, probably 40, 50 years ago, I think 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:45.520 back in the '40s, I believe, but I may be wrong. 00:20:45.520 --> 00:20:50.880 But this is the one major, for lack of a better word, obstacle. 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:56.680 Police department may maintain a personal file on a police officer employed by the department 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:02.240 for the department's use, but the department may not release any information contained 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:08.680 in the department file to any agency or person requesting information relating to a police 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:09.680 officer. 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:16.120 And when this is referring to department file, that includes internal affairs investigation 00:21:16.120 --> 00:21:24.400 files that did not result in the officer being suspended for at least one day, demoted, bypassed 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:31.720 for a promotion, or indefinitely suspended, which is the civil service equivalent to firing. 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:38.520 So this provision can only be changed by the legislature or through the meet and confer 00:21:38.520 --> 00:21:39.680 agreement. 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:46.800 Now as I mentioned in Austin, we changed this through the meet and confer agreement by allowing 00:21:46.800 --> 00:21:54.240 a police monitor and a citizens review panel to have access to these confidential files. 00:21:54.240 --> 00:22:02.080 I do want to clarify this a little bit, because if you read it, it says the department cannot 00:22:02.080 --> 00:22:07.180 release any information to anyone asking for it. 00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:14.480 Back in 2000, the attorney general was asked an opinion about this and the opinion the 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:20.520 attorney general issued at that point or at that time was that the city council or the 00:22:20.520 --> 00:22:29.720 governing body may authorize other people to review those confidential police department 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:39.240 files, but in that case, it involved the city manager and the city attorney. 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:45.520 Those were the two people that the attorney general ruled or opined could have access 00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:48.240 to these confidential files. 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:55.200 And the reason the attorney general said that is because the city manager appoints the police 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:59.760 chief, the city manager has the authority to remove the police chief, the city council 00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:07.000 does not, and the city manager is the supervisor of the police chief. 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:13.400 So the city manager needs access to these files in order to do his supervision of the 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.080 police chief and the police department. 00:23:16.080 --> 00:23:22.800 For the city attorney, we give legal advice to the police chief and to the city manager. 00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:30.540 So we need access to this confidential information for the city attorney to do his job. 00:23:30.540 --> 00:23:36.680 So after the attorney general rendered that opinion back in 2000, the city council here 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:45.000 in Denton passed an ordinance that authorized the city manager, the HR director, and the 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:51.640 city attorney to have access to these confidential files. 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:52.640 That's it. 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:57.040 And there's been one other attorney general opinion that I'll talk about in a little 00:23:57.040 --> 00:24:04.500 bit that talks about citizen volunteer committee members access to these confidential files. 00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:09.800 But I just wanted you to know that this is not an absolute. 00:24:09.800 --> 00:24:14.400 There is the ability for other people besides the police chief and people in the police 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:18.620 department to have access to these confidential files. 00:24:18.620 --> 00:24:25.600 But as you start getting further away from accountability to the city manager and the 00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:32.060 police chief, that's where the legal justification for getting access to these confidential files 00:24:32.060 --> 00:24:33.400 starts to get very tenuous. 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:38.040 And I'll explain that a little bit more. 00:24:38.040 --> 00:24:41.780 So that's one of the limitations on oversight. 00:24:41.780 --> 00:24:48.180 The other one is the meet and confer agreement with the police association. 00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:53.840 And there's a provision in there about protected rights of officers that the officer who is 00:24:53.840 --> 00:25:01.020 the subject of an investigation has the right to see certain evidence against him or her 00:25:01.020 --> 00:25:04.800 prior to an interview. 00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:13.480 So if you want an oversight process that says, well, for example, an officer has the right 00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:20.600 to a copy of the complaint and to see this information 48 hours before he or she is interviewed 00:25:20.600 --> 00:25:22.740 by internal affairs. 00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:28.560 If you want an oversight process that has the authority to actually talk to and interview 00:25:28.560 --> 00:25:37.880 and investigate officers, that process still has to comply with this provision of the contract. 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:45.560 And this is one that I think is probably even more important and a greater limitation. 00:25:45.560 --> 00:25:51.920 In the meet and confer agreement, there's a section that says there shall be no legal 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:58.400 or administrative requirement, including but not limited to subpoena power or an order 00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:04.140 from the city manager or the department, the police department, that an officer appear 00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:12.820 before or present evidence to any individual panel, committee, group, or form of any type. 00:26:12.820 --> 00:26:20.000 So what this means is that if you have a citizen review panel that wants investigative power 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:26.360 which would or subpoena power, which would include actually talking to that officer, 00:26:26.360 --> 00:26:29.840 the meet and confer agreement prohibits that. 00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:35.640 The officer cannot be forced to talk to a civilian oversight committee. 00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:39.920 That is a provision in the contract and we can't get around that. 00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:40.920 We negotiated it. 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:42.440 It's an enforceable contract. 00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:49.480 So the 143 provision I just talked about and these two contract provisions are limitations 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:57.400 on what we can do on civilian oversight in the city of Denton. 00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:03.760 What I did, and in a minute I'll see if you have any questions, what I did was put together 00:27:03.760 --> 00:27:04.760 this chart. 00:27:04.760 --> 00:27:15.860 I looked at Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, Galveston, Houston, and San Antonio. 00:27:15.860 --> 00:27:19.520 All of them have a form of oversight. 00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:28.240 Austin, for example, Austin is subject to chapter 143 provision I referenced and they 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:30.200 have a meet and confer agreement. 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:37.400 They have a police monitor who is a full-time city employee that reports to the city manager. 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:41.280 They have a, it's a 10 member, I just confirmed that today. 00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:43.640 They have a 10 member. 00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:51.540 They call it a, give you the exact name, community police review commission. 00:27:51.540 --> 00:27:57.520 But that commission was created by the meet and confer agreement. 00:27:57.520 --> 00:28:02.800 Those volunteers are non-paid. 00:28:02.800 --> 00:28:05.480 They are appointed by the city manager. 00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:08.720 They can be removed by the city manager. 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:14.720 The process in Austin does not have investigative or subpoena power. 00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:16.640 They have a police monitor. 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:23.560 That police monitor can attend any interviews, can monitor investigations, can sit in on 00:28:23.560 --> 00:28:29.000 disciplinary meetings with the chief, but does not have the authority to conduct independent 00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:30.960 investigations. 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:35.480 They can have public meetings for the panel. 00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:41.280 And the oversight process in Austin can review all types of cases, no limitations. 00:28:41.280 --> 00:28:46.240 Dallas, on the other hand, is not subject to chapter 143. 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:54.000 So all the, the restriction that I was talking about, the 143-089-G confidential file, that 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.440 does not apply to Dallas. 00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:02.400 So what Dallas can do, they're not under the same limitations. 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:08.160 So Dallas has a full-time paid police monitor. 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:14.600 They have a 15-member advisory board to the chief, the city manager, and the council. 00:29:14.600 --> 00:29:16.100 They are not paid. 00:29:16.100 --> 00:29:24.440 None of the citizen volunteer processes in the state of Texas are paid, they're all volunteers. 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:30.360 In Dallas, the city manager appoints the monitor, the council appoints the board. 00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:33.640 The city manager can remove the monitor. 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.840 The council can remove the board members. 00:29:37.840 --> 00:29:38.840 Dallas is a little different. 00:29:38.840 --> 00:29:45.000 The monitor may conduct an investigation and can issue subpoenas. 00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:51.320 But the Dallas ordinance specifically says that the monitor cannot issue subpoenas for 00:29:51.320 --> 00:29:54.320 a city employee or police officer. 00:29:54.320 --> 00:29:55.320 That's part of their ordinance. 00:29:55.320 --> 00:29:59.600 I don't know why, but that's what it is. 00:29:59.600 --> 00:30:07.480 Dallas does have public meetings, the panel, and the monitor can review all types of cases. 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:13.840 However, the citizen board only reviews critical incidents like shootings and deaths in custody 00:30:13.840 --> 00:30:15.440 and external complaints. 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:20.400 There's just two cities there. 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:25.880 Fort Worth is subject to 143, and they have a meet and confer agreement. 00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:29.240 They have a full-time monitor, full-time employee. 00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:33.680 They don't have a panel yet, and I don't know if they're going to. 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:39.200 The city manager appoints the monitor, and if they do have a board, then the council 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:41.600 will appoint those people. 00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:47.480 The city manager can remove the monitor, and if the council decides to have a board or 00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:50.360 commission, then the council members can review them. 00:30:50.360 --> 00:30:55.520 The police monitor in Fort Worth does not have an investigative of subpoena power. 00:30:55.520 --> 00:31:02.720 She can hold public meetings where people can come in and voice their complaints, and 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.680 the monitor in Fort Worth can review all types of cases. 00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:12.040 Galveston is also a 143 city, and they have a meet and confer agreement. 00:31:12.040 --> 00:31:13.760 They do not have a police monitor. 00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:22.920 What they have is a seven-member advisory panel to the police chief, and that seven-member 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:29.280 panel is appointed by the mayor and the council, very subject to removal by the council. 00:31:29.280 --> 00:31:33.780 The chief's advisory board does not have investigative subpoena power. 00:31:33.780 --> 00:31:40.040 They do not hold public meetings, and as you can see, they do not review all types of cases. 00:31:40.040 --> 00:31:46.160 They review excessive force, discharge of firearms, incidents resulting in serious bodily 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:51.800 injury or death, or any other cases requested by the chief. 00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:56.200 Let me do these last two, and then I'll kind of sum up. 00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:58.400 Houston is a little bit different. 00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:03.400 Houston is subject to Chapter 143, and they have a meet and confer agreement. 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:05.320 They do not have a police monitor. 00:32:05.320 --> 00:32:10.160 They have a 29-member panel. 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.080 It's divided into several, they have several different panels. 00:32:13.080 --> 00:32:15.240 I think it totals 29. 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:18.600 I think the panels may be seven or eight people. 00:32:18.600 --> 00:32:22.480 They're appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the city council. 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.360 The mayor can remove them. 00:32:24.360 --> 00:32:29.660 Houston is what they call a strong mayor system. 00:32:29.660 --> 00:32:34.120 This panel in Houston does not have investigative subpoena power. 00:32:34.120 --> 00:32:39.640 They do not hold public meetings, and as you can see, they do not review every type of 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:41.840 case either. 00:32:41.840 --> 00:32:44.080 Houston is a little bit different. 00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:51.520 Houston is subject to that provision, that 089(g) limitation provision. 00:32:51.520 --> 00:32:58.280 Their oversight process was instituted by the mayor or former mayor on an executive 00:32:58.280 --> 00:32:59.680 order. 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:06.080 I don't know how they did that because they are subject to that subsection (g) provision 00:33:06.080 --> 00:33:07.520 I referred to. 00:33:07.520 --> 00:33:12.280 The police association has not challenged. 00:33:12.280 --> 00:33:15.840 They haven't challenged it saying you have to negotiate that with us through the meat 00:33:15.840 --> 00:33:17.700 confer agreement. 00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:21.960 And I've talked to some people down there, and I'm not sure if there was some side agreements 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:26.520 or how that happened, but it has not been challenged. 00:33:26.520 --> 00:33:28.040 It is not part of their contract. 00:33:28.040 --> 00:33:30.520 It is something that the mayor put in himself. 00:33:30.520 --> 00:33:34.600 The last one I want to talk about is San Antonio. 00:33:34.600 --> 00:33:35.600 They are subject... 00:33:35.600 --> 00:33:41.100 Mike, before you leave Houston, how many years has that panel been in place? 00:33:41.100 --> 00:33:43.840 I don't know offhand, but it's been quite a while. 00:33:43.840 --> 00:33:50.800 I can get you the answer before we're done, but I don't remember when it began, but I'm 00:33:50.800 --> 00:33:56.680 sure it's at least 10, 10, 15 years. 00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:00.080 It's been there for a while. 00:34:00.080 --> 00:34:02.820 San Antonio is a 143 city as well. 00:34:02.820 --> 00:34:04.920 They have a meat confer agreement. 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:07.320 They do not have a police monitor. 00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:13.200 They have a chief advisory board made up of 14 members, half of them are police officers 00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:15.480 and half are citizens. 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:20.940 The citizens are appointed by the council and the police representatives are appointed 00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:22.560 by the chief. 00:34:22.560 --> 00:34:27.480 The citizens can be removed by the council and the police officers can be removed by 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:29.040 the chief. 00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:33.520 They do not have investigative subpoena power. 00:34:33.520 --> 00:34:41.000 There are no public meetings, but this advisory board can hear testimony and they can hear 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:43.760 and review any type of case. 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:52.400 So as you can see, no two cities are really the same and you just have to kind of think 00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:59.000 about what you would want to, if we have oversight here, what you would want them to do of all 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:03.680 of these different things, would you want a monitor, would you want a panel, who should 00:35:03.680 --> 00:35:09.520 appoint them, who can remove them, should there be public meetings, what type of cases 00:35:09.520 --> 00:35:12.960 should they do, should they have subpoena power. 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:17.320 Those are all the types of things that I think when you folks make your recommendations that 00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:21.480 you need to consider. 00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:25.640 One other thing I just want to point out and this goes to the earlier question about who's 00:35:25.640 --> 00:35:32.880 on these panels, the citizen panels, I just looked at Austin, Dallas and Houston. 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.880 For Austin, you cannot currently be a city of Austin employee, you cannot hold a public 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:43.600 office and you cannot have an immediate family member who is currently or formerly employed 00:35:43.600 --> 00:35:46.160 by the Austin Police Department. 00:35:46.160 --> 00:35:51.520 For Dallas, you cannot be employed by the Dallas Police Department or have an immediate 00:35:51.520 --> 00:35:56.160 family member who is an employee of the Dallas Police Department. 00:35:56.160 --> 00:36:01.520 For Houston, you cannot hold a political office, you cannot be employed by any law enforcement 00:36:01.520 --> 00:36:04.560 agency, not just Houston. 00:36:04.560 --> 00:36:09.280 You cannot be an employee of the city of Houston, you cannot be an immediate family member of 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:15.120 any Houston Police Department personnel and this was an earlier question. 00:36:15.120 --> 00:36:22.280 The 29 member panel that they have there includes experts in criminal justice, civil rights 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:29.240 attorneys, retired judges and prosecutors, and academic experts and scholars. 00:36:29.240 --> 00:36:34.680 So that just kind of gives you an idea because I know one of the questions that I think Cameon 00:36:34.680 --> 00:36:42.240 you may have raised was who can be on this should they have any relation to the police 00:36:42.240 --> 00:36:46.040 department any relation to law enforcement totally. 00:36:46.040 --> 00:36:51.560 So I just wanted to show you at least these are the three major cities in Texas that have 00:36:51.560 --> 00:36:57.960 oversight and I just want I'm really just dealing with the relationship to someone in 00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:03.440 law enforcement or a family member so that's what this slide is about. 00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:15.600 So let me I'm happy to answer any questions about any of this question about the process 00:37:15.600 --> 00:37:26.440 of complaint as it pertains to those three agencies because the issue that I'm I guess 00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:37.000 trying to understand is like how these cases get to the committee because in my mind I'm 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:43.000 thinking that it would it would be a great idea for us to not for that for an oversight 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000 committee to not have to deal with every single case and entrust you know the police department 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:55.640 but then if people who are arrested or detained or whatever if they feel that they've gotten 00:37:55.640 --> 00:38:02.960 unfair treatment that they may be given the option to choose if they would like to request 00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:08.400 an oversight committee or if they would like to file a complaint so that we could get you 00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:16.560 know those funneled through and is that even a thing and then if and if if the oversight 00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:24.000 committee themselves if themselves if they come across a case that that they may take 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:29.360 issue with that they could they they could have the option to review those cases but 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:42.680 that by and large it would mostly be via the a complaint does that make sense yeah and 00:38:42.680 --> 00:38:51.040 you can write any process you want if you want in Austin for example the a person can 00:38:51.040 --> 00:38:58.680 go to the police monitor's office and file a complaint and then once it's investigated 00:38:58.680 --> 00:39:05.880 the police monitor can either take the complaint to the citizen panel depending upon the nature 00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:12.560 of the complaint or the citizen can ask I would like the panel to review my complaint 00:39:12.560 --> 00:39:16.920 so you can you know whatever recommendation you want to make that you think it should 00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:22.680 be this way or that way it's totally within you know your purview to make that recommendation 00:39:22.680 --> 00:39:27.200 all these different systems are a little bit different on how things ultimately might get 00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:35.920 to a citizen panel is there currently a system in place in Denton where people can make complaints 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:43.480 and it's a pretty streamlined system I'll let let chief Dixon answer that for you yes 00:39:43.480 --> 00:39:46.900 there is so there's a number of different ways they can make a complaint currently they 00:39:46.900 --> 00:39:53.040 can call in they can do them online they can come in and do them anonymously through a 00:39:53.040 --> 00:39:57.280 drop box that we have in the lobby or they can come in and meet with internal affairs 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:05.160 which is not located in the police department it's located where parks used to be if they 00:40:05.160 --> 00:40:12.000 if they're being arrested is there a process like with within the arrest where they can 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.000 request absolutely anybody can anytime you can ask for a supervisor you can say I want 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.760 to make a complaint and then the officers will get a supervisor over they'll take the 00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:26.400 information and forward it to internal affairs but they have to initiate that correct so 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:30.320 they would have to know that they can make a complaint or is it like you have the right 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:41.480 to file a complaint no the person has to ask has to initiate it okay Jamie my question 00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:48.000 is in regards to those cities with the monitor do you happen to have any information about 00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:56.080 what type of job description or qualifications those people typically have yeah I've been 00:40:56.080 --> 00:41:02.240 involved in the writing the job description at least in Austin I can tell you about that 00:41:02.240 --> 00:41:10.200 originally when we hired our first monitor back in 2002 2003 somewhere in there they 00:41:10.200 --> 00:41:19.640 wanted someone that was an attorney had no prior affiliation with the city and trying 00:41:19.640 --> 00:41:25.920 to remember what else some of the qualifications were they I don't remember offhand but that 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:32.000 is something that you folks if you think we should have a police monitor you can make 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.560 recommendations as to what the qualifications for that person should be just like we would 00:41:36.560 --> 00:41:45.760 for any other job came on did you have and Rhonda did you have your hand up okay came 00:41:45.760 --> 00:42:02.600 me on I have a few questions though so why I guess I'm wondering I just want to understand 00:42:02.600 --> 00:42:08.920 again I'm sure you explain this what is it that makes us a 143 like what's the difference 00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:15.840 between us and like Dallas what are they they're not a 143 yeah and your volumes a little low 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:25.840 I don't know if I heard you question yeah okay chapter 143 provision of the local government 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:31.920 code gives the voters of a city the right to hold an election whether or not they want 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:38.640 to adopt chapter 143 for their city and I don't know how many offhand how many cities 00:42:38.640 --> 00:42:47.360 in Texas are trapped at 143 but there's probably got to be at least a couple hundred I believe 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:53.260 what's that Frank 92 okay last time it was about yeah around 100 or something so it's 00:42:53.260 --> 00:42:59.240 up to the voters whether they want to adopt that or not for example in Arlington the voters 00:42:59.240 --> 00:43:04.400 just approved a year or two ago chapter 143 but just for their fire department not for 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:10.040 the police and that's because the fire fighters wanted chapter 143 but the police officers 00:43:10.040 --> 00:43:16.300 haven't asked the voters to approve it I don't know why Dallas has its own civil service 00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:22.360 system if they wanted to adopt chapter 143 I think the voters could put that on the ballot 00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:33.280 if they wanted to but they they haven't at this point okay I guess I was also wondering 00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:41.520 it looked like from a slide that our contract around the 143 or meet and confer I don't 00:43:41.520 --> 00:43:48.820 know if they're kind of the same thing indicates that you can't have subpoena power like it's 00:43:48.820 --> 00:43:54.520 explicit in there and so I was just wondering if you could explain why that might get added 00:43:54.520 --> 00:44:01.320 in if it goes beyond oversight boards like what is that all about well your contract 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:09.280 doesn't express expressly say anything about civilian oversight and I'll see if the chief 00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:14.840 wants to address this my belief and I wasn't here when that contract was negotiated but 00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:22.760 before I came here I read that police contract and I looked at and I said I wrote that I 00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:29.000 wrote that language I think what they did is probably take some of the things from Austin 00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:38.820 and incorporated into this contract the language looks familiar so I think they may have cut 00:44:38.820 --> 00:44:44.640 and pasted part of that into that but I don't know and I'll let the chief address it if 00:44:44.640 --> 00:44:52.240 he wants to I don't know that that provision was necessarily focused on oversight if we 00:44:52.240 --> 00:44:58.540 ever get it I think it was just kind of a cut and paste and but it's in there and an 00:44:58.540 --> 00:45:06.560 officer if we put in an oversight process that allows a committee to subpoena an officer 00:45:06.560 --> 00:45:12.780 the officer will pull that contract out and say right here it says I can't be subpoenaed 00:45:12.780 --> 00:45:18.680 and then what we probably would do I could say if we went to a grievance over that I 00:45:18.680 --> 00:45:23.560 could say well that wasn't intended for oversight because the oversight's not mentioned in the 00:45:23.560 --> 00:45:29.560 contract whatsoever and the officer and his lawyer would then say well but it's clear 00:45:29.560 --> 00:45:34.480 it says you can't subpoena me so I don't care what you meant by it that's very clear and 00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:42.560 explicit Frank did you want to address the oversight at all I think Jesse Jesse did you 00:45:42.560 --> 00:45:54.680 have your hand up I did go ahead chief and then Jesse Frank did you want to address the 00:45:54.680 --> 00:45:59.800 issue just of and I don't know if you were here when the contract is negotiated of including 00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:06.160 the officer rights article or I was and there was no talk about oversight at the time they 00:46:06.160 --> 00:46:09.960 were looking at a number of different from what I know I'm obviously on the management 00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:14.520 side not on the labor side but I just think they were looking at a number of different 00:46:14.520 --> 00:46:21.440 contracts around the state and they pull language that they liked and put in there I'm not saying 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:28.080 that I mean weak that's a battle that we could fight about what does that language actually 00:46:28.080 --> 00:46:35.240 mean and what's the limitation on it and the con the meeting confer agreement has a dispute 00:46:35.240 --> 00:46:40.520 resolution process in it well we could go to an arbitrator who would rule on what that 00:46:40.520 --> 00:46:46.000 means but just the clear language says an officer can't be subpoenaed before any board 00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:52.440 or panel or anything like that so on its face you can argue that it it you can't subpoena 00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:59.560 someone but I have I think I have a good argument just the opposite way but my point in bringing 00:46:59.560 --> 00:47:06.440 that out was there are some potential contractual limitations as well to the form of oversight 00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:13.880 that you might want to recommend thank you for that I'm assuming that the subpoena power 00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:19.520 was added to the Austin agreement because of the oversight board yeah it was specifically 00:47:19.520 --> 00:47:25.920 the police association did not want officers subject to being called before a board like 00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:31.280 this so we as part of the negotiation overall negotiation for that contract we included 00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:37.960 that in there now let me just clear up yeah let me say one more thing the city manager 00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:45.960 or the police chief have the right to order an independent investigation so that provision 00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:52.200 about not being required to talk to anyone or subpoena does not apply to an independent 00:47:52.200 --> 00:47:58.120 investigation ordered by the chief or the city manager so that's kind of a totally separate 00:47:58.120 --> 00:48:05.160 issue than what I'm talking about on oversight I had another question are there ways in which 00:48:05.160 --> 00:48:10.920 panel members are added without being appointed directly by the mayor or not directly by an 00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:16.160 additional council like for instance I don't think didn't need the council and an oversight 00:48:16.160 --> 00:48:22.360 board but how could committee members be placed on it without being nominated by the mayor 00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:28.000 well he did say the city manager would place them on there well I mean I guess I'm wondering 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:32.800 without city involvement like is there a way for folks to apply to be on it or like are 00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:39.720 there different models for that one of the issues and I'll get to it in a couple slides 00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:46.680 is as you start getting further away from accountability to either the police chief 00:48:46.680 --> 00:48:53.220 or the city manager the law starts getting very fuzzy as to whether or not volunteers 00:48:53.220 --> 00:49:00.080 can have access to these confidential files if the city manager was to appoint these people 00:49:00.080 --> 00:49:07.200 who are accountable to him that's a stronger argument but it and some of the proposals 00:49:07.200 --> 00:49:10.840 that are the options that I talk about in the later slides actually deal with these 00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:21.960 issues maybe just cover it when we get there okay Jesse and then well thank you Mike you've 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:27.320 done a lot of kind of going over the structure of things and how different cities put these 00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:33.160 groups together you have some more slides on you know options for Denton things we could 00:49:33.160 --> 00:49:37.560 look at could you tell us just a little bit if you think it's appropriate about what it 00:49:37.560 --> 00:49:42.120 is these groups actually do city by city you know if they get a complaint what do they 00:49:42.120 --> 00:49:46.680 do with that complaint you've told us about how they can investigate it but where does 00:49:46.680 --> 00:49:50.960 it go from there where do they send do they do a report did they are they accountable 00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:55.480 to somebody who's looking for their advice specifically like what is it that these groups 00:49:55.480 --> 00:50:01.680 actually get accomplished with their work when it comes right down to it all they do 00:50:01.680 --> 00:50:07.540 is make recommendations to whether it's to the police chief the city manager the city 00:50:07.540 --> 00:50:17.480 council the mayor by state law only the chief can impose discipline and so ultimately that 00:50:17.480 --> 00:50:23.760 really is all they they do is make recommendations now they do like we've talked about they could 00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:33.780 have input into policies training investigations discipline in a sense that maybe making a 00:50:33.780 --> 00:50:38.920 recommendation to the chief on a particular case now again it depends on whether or not 00:50:38.920 --> 00:50:46.040 they're going to have access to the the IA files but but ultimately they they recommend 00:50:46.040 --> 00:50:51.800 and that's really about it they don't have the authority to fire somebody or hire somebody 00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:59.280 they don't have the authority on their own to demand or implement policy changes but 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:04.480 that's all kind of part of is this group what do you think oversight should do should they 00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:13.800 have more authority to not just to recommend or I'm not sure I answered it but it really 00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:20.720 is just an end of in an advisory capacity now there are some some oversight processes 00:51:20.720 --> 00:51:26.800 in other cities around the country that actually have some I won't say teeth to them but actually 00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:32.920 do have the authority to impose discipline and fire people we don't hear that state law 00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:38.660 gives that solely to the chief but again every every city around the country is operating 00:51:38.660 --> 00:51:50.440 under different laws and maybe different employment contracts well yeah mr. Coney in terms of 00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:56.480 the the monitor the full-time monitor it's some of these departments as one who wrote 00:51:56.480 --> 00:52:02.720 the job description for that in Austin could you give us maybe just from your perspective 00:52:02.720 --> 00:52:10.520 the pros to having a full-time monitor in the department the cons to that what what 00:52:10.520 --> 00:52:17.560 from your vantage point in all your years or the pros and cons sure I reached out to 00:52:17.560 --> 00:52:22.360 my counterpart in Austin the other day and I asked him how many complaints have you had 00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:30.200 so far in 2020 and they've had about 1,500 complaints just this year alone now about 00:52:30.200 --> 00:52:36.400 a hundred of them or so from these recent protests so let's say probably by the end 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:42.680 of the year it's probably safe to say Austin will have 2,000 complaints when you compare 00:52:42.680 --> 00:52:50.080 that with Denton how many we've had over the past five years of something this just my 00:52:50.080 --> 00:52:55.040 opinion but you folks can recommend something different I don't think you need a full-time 00:52:55.040 --> 00:53:03.840 monitor if you want to recommend that one be put on the payroll and be an employee subject 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:09.600 and accountable to the city manager you can make that recommendation or do you think we 00:53:09.600 --> 00:53:15.160 should have some kind of process where we have somebody on retainer that if it's a specific 00:53:15.160 --> 00:53:20.840 case a critical incident that we can hire that person to monitor the case or review 00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:28.160 it or something but I just don't and I'll even let the chief chime in if he thinks we 00:53:28.160 --> 00:53:36.080 we have the volume of complaints that we would need a full-time monitor just from my experience 00:53:36.080 --> 00:53:43.440 and working with the monger in a different city they would be very they wouldn't be busy 00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:48.960 so I don't know how proficient they could get unless you got someone that had experience 00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:54.680 they did it part-time but that's just looking at the volume of work that they would have 00:53:54.680 --> 00:54:01.800 to do so the pros is really just if it gets if the number of complaints gets to a certain 00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:06.800 level you're saying that's whatever you would subjectively determine that to be that's really 00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:10.600 where the benefit of it comes in you've got one person devoted to doing that full-time 00:54:10.600 --> 00:54:19.160 but until then from your perspective it seems not not efficient I mean I don't see the low 00:54:19.160 --> 00:54:23.200 number of complaints being a bad thing I think that sometimes we can get caught in the trap 00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:29.240 of we don't have enough complaints well you know for me as the chief executive officer 00:54:29.240 --> 00:54:34.320 it's kind of a good thing that we don't have a lot of complaints because it speaks to you 00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:38.200 know the department of the city overall I think the relationship between the department 00:54:38.200 --> 00:54:43.600 and the city although it's not perfect we're in a pretty good place and we work very well 00:54:43.600 --> 00:54:49.500 together this being one of the prime examples to it so that's just you know my observation 00:54:49.500 --> 00:55:00.280 I have a question and then somebody just had their hand up oh Jamie just had their hand 00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:06.880 what in comparison our department we have we don't quite have 200 police officers so 00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:13.520 in comparison to the other departments that you put up what is the number of officers 00:55:13.520 --> 00:55:22.000 that they have Austin has around 2,000 Houston has I think around 5,500 San Antonio I don't 00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:27.760 know offhand but I don't believe they have more than Austin Galveston is a small department 00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:35.080 I don't know Dallas I think has maybe around 3,000 or something like that so of course 00:55:35.080 --> 00:55:39.960 when you have more employees at bigger cities you're going to have more citizen contacts 00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:47.320 more complaints so I can understand the need for them to want a full-time monitor as you 00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:51.560 can see those bigger cities also tend to have a lot more officer involved shootings which 00:55:51.560 --> 00:55:56.880 we don't fortunately we don't have here so you know just based on my experience and as 00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:02.920 the chief pointed out I just don't see that you need a full-time monitor on the payroll 00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:07.840 ultimately that's a decision for somebody else but I just don't think there's the workload 00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:17.760 or need for it it's just my opinion okay Jamie and then Pam my question actually was answered 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:25.920 in that so I'm good now if you were at were if the recommendation was made to get a monitor 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:32.800 on retainer how difficult do you think that would be mr. Conning I'll defer to I'll defer 00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:38.360 to the city manager on hiring processes and how that would work just wondering how difficult 00:56:38.360 --> 00:56:44.680 that process might be for you all well I think is the chief said if it's if it's a part-time 00:56:44.680 --> 00:56:52.280 employee yeah I'm retaining I don't I don't think it would be that difficult there are 00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:55.840 there are firms around the country that have been set up with ex-police executives in fact 00:56:55.840 --> 00:57:00.480 that's something the chief and I talked about at one point was you know do would we want 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:05.520 to bring somebody in to take a look at our policy updates best practices give us some 00:57:05.520 --> 00:57:12.560 feedback on on how certain incidents were handled but I think that the the contract 00:57:12.560 --> 00:57:18.000 relationship brings somebody in you know we do this at DME for instance with our trading 00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:23.160 floor bringing somebody in every quarter every six months to take things give us some feedback 00:57:23.160 --> 00:57:28.400 on best practices training curriculum it can be done okay thank you I was just wondering 00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:36.120 cost wise so it would be less if that recommendation was made thank you yeah um I think Jamie has 00:57:36.120 --> 00:57:42.920 a question and then Willie did you have your hand up okay and Jamie and then I think after 00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:50.160 that we'll move on to the next portion my question is in direct response to the city 00:57:50.160 --> 00:57:55.320 manager it's a follow-up to what you were stating about some of the other potential 00:57:55.320 --> 00:58:03.160 contractual work related to training and policies and things like that um that's something I'd 00:58:03.160 --> 00:58:09.200 like for you to kind of describe a little bit more in terms of if if we as a collective 00:58:09.200 --> 00:58:16.800 group decided that we thought it might be a good idea to have a monitor on retainer 00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:22.240 or something could they also do some of the additional pieces that we may be recommending 00:58:22.240 --> 00:58:26.840 is that kind of what you're thinking or is it an entirely different thing no I think 00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:32.480 I think they work together we've we've spent quite a bit of time and and are getting close 00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:38.000 to having most of our policies updated best practices updated right now and a monitor 00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:43.640 that's under contract is going to have the expertise to evaluate situations against the 00:58:43.640 --> 00:58:49.740 best practices and provide us with that expert feedback on where additional training might 00:58:49.740 --> 00:58:55.600 be needed where you know if there's any holes that need to be fixed any other suggestions 00:58:55.600 --> 00:58:58.480 so that is what they're going to do but they wouldn't be the ones actually putting the 00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:04.020 training program in place they would be evaluating what they're what they're saying how the officers 00:59:04.020 --> 00:59:08.400 behaviors as sorts of things against the best practices in the in the up-to-date policies 00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:12.880 and there could be an opportunity where they would actually even suggest that we create 00:59:12.880 --> 00:59:16.840 different training opportunities depending on what they're saying so it actually works 00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:27.520 in conjunction with one another go ahead Jamie I'm sorry Cheryl I promise to no you're fine 00:59:27.520 --> 00:59:34.440 Mike my question now Mr. Cronick is for any of the the cities that you looked at that 00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:42.240 do have a panel or board what is the tenure of those positions is it a one-year appointment 00:59:42.240 --> 00:59:47.800 to and how many of those can I have can I sit on it until the end of time or did you 00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:54.920 have any details about that everyone is different sometimes they try to have staggered appointments 00:59:54.920 --> 01:00:00.320 so that not all of them have to be reappointed but I think they're usually two or three year 01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:06.480 appointments and there may be ability it's like the Civil Service Commission Mr. Baines 01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:13.160 I believe I think you can be reappointed certain times and again that's you know that that's 01:00:13.160 --> 01:00:19.040 saying the devil's in the details if you if you write a an oversight process you can put 01:00:19.040 --> 01:00:23.200 that in there can't serve more than three consecutive two-year terms or whatever you 01:00:23.200 --> 01:00:28.560 want to do you can craft whatever process you want now part of what I'll have to do 01:00:28.560 --> 01:00:33.120 is whatever recommendations are made is go back and see if there we can do it under the 01:00:33.120 --> 01:00:37.960 law and under the contract but those are things that you folks can just say here's what we 01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:44.200 recommend this is the way it we would like to see it Todd is there consistency for those 01:00:44.200 --> 01:00:49.720 terms across city boards and other commissions is there sort of a Denton standard or does 01:00:49.720 --> 01:00:55.200 it vary by each commission it varies by each commission we have some that are two three 01:00:55.200 --> 01:01:11.920 and four so it's all over the board yes Kamiya thank you Michael you mentioned that there's 01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:17.800 no oversight boards that pay volunteers I'm assuming you got all of my recommendations 01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:26.720 for oversight I'm wondering if there if there's any research even outside of Texas of folks 01:01:26.720 --> 01:01:31.640 that played a small stipend for I just am a believer of paying folks for their mental 01:01:31.640 --> 01:01:38.400 and emotional labor and not like a huge stipend like when we have interns we pay them a small 01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:43.720 stipend right like it's not like paying them to be part-time or anything but just something 01:01:43.720 --> 01:01:49.240 I just didn't know if that was ever a precedent in any other city I don't know but let me 01:01:49.240 --> 01:01:54.760 ask you this if you're going to pay this board a stipend then I think as a matter of fairness 01:01:54.760 --> 01:02:01.660 once you have to pay people who serve on other city boards and I would agree with you yeah 01:02:01.660 --> 01:02:07.480 but I don't know it is possible I know in the municipal civil service commission in 01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:14.360 Austin which here's deals with the non-sporn people those commission members have wanted 01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:19.400 to and feel like they should be paid for their meetings and the last I knew they weren't 01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:25.840 paid and I don't know if council had put that on the on their agenda but none of the boards 01:02:25.840 --> 01:02:31.760 of commissions that I'm aware of in Austin or anywhere else around here get paid doesn't 01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:37.640 mean you can't as far as I know I mean it's an issue we'd have to look at but again it's 01:02:37.640 --> 01:02:49.880 a matter of fairness to you know for every other person on a board and commission anybody 01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:56.300 else so we'll move we'll have my go to the next presentation thank you so what I tried 01:02:56.300 --> 01:03:08.160 to do is come up with what are some options so what I tried to do was kind of go from 01:03:08.160 --> 01:03:14.200 the most defensible to the least defensible and based on my experience the attorney general 01:03:14.200 --> 01:03:20.160 opinion that I referenced the most defensible structure is a police monitor that is a city 01:03:20.160 --> 01:03:26.560 employee or an independent contractor that reports to the city manager now as I mentioned 01:03:26.560 --> 01:03:33.840 back in 2001 the council passed this ordinance that allowed the city manager and the city 01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:39.820 attorney and the HR director to have access to these files if we hired a police monitor 01:03:39.820 --> 01:03:44.440 that was reporting to the city manager then my recommendation would be that we amend this 01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:51.160 ordinance to allow that person to have access as well and why could that person monitor 01:03:51.160 --> 01:03:57.440 have access to these files that person would be acting as the eyes and ears of the city 01:03:57.440 --> 01:04:03.440 manager who as I said is the direct supervisor of the police department and the police chief 01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:09.480 so a police monitor is acting on behalf of the city manager and that's why I believe 01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:17.280 a police monitor who reports to the manager would lawfully have access to these materials 01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:21.200 another option too is you could make the monitor a paid employee of the law department that 01:04:21.200 --> 01:04:28.220 reports to the city attorney who also has lawful access to these materials this structure 01:04:28.220 --> 01:04:33.680 in my opinion does not require an amendment to chapter 143 by the legislature or a meet 01:04:33.680 --> 01:04:41.360 and confer process now I will tell you this in Austin the police association felt like 01:04:41.360 --> 01:04:47.960 we could not even have a police monitor without a provision in the meet and confer contract 01:04:47.960 --> 01:04:56.920 and when we did not have a contract in 2018 this police association sued the city and 01:04:56.920 --> 01:05:02.000 I believe from what I remember I was in the courtroom the judge rejected their argument 01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:08.480 that we could not have a police monitor absent a contract so I believe a police monitor reporting 01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:15.540 to the manager is legal and valid even without a contract so I think that's the most legally 01:05:15.540 --> 01:05:23.320 defensible process another option is what if the police chief creates or utilizes an 01:05:23.320 --> 01:05:30.840 existing police department committee to review or audit police department operations and the 01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:35.040 chief could create a committee or utilize an existing committee that includes dentin 01:05:35.040 --> 01:05:41.720 residents to periodically review or audit police department policies practices training 01:05:41.720 --> 01:05:47.580 internal affairs operations and again this is a volunteer committee and as I said when 01:05:47.580 --> 01:05:53.160 you start getting into volunteer issues it starts getting more tenuous whether or not 01:05:53.160 --> 01:06:06.200 they can have access to these confidential police department internal affairs investigations 01:06:06.200 --> 01:06:14.200 okay thanks so I do believe that the chief could create a utilize an existing committee 01:06:14.200 --> 01:06:20.360 now as I say here at the end is noted in age is AG opinion which is on the next slide there 01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:26.360 may be limitations so if the chief has a committee an existing committee who wants to create 01:06:26.360 --> 01:06:37.440 one to advise him that issue came up back in 2010 and this involved a police citizen 01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:43.600 review board appointed by city council and the attorney general opinion didn't tell me 01:06:43.600 --> 01:06:49.560 which city and it was a police civilian review board appointed by the council and assigned 01:06:49.560 --> 01:06:56.760 to the police chief as an advisory board to review disciplinary matters use of force cases 01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:02.720 weapon discharges those types of things and here's what the attorney general said whether 01:07:02.720 --> 01:07:10.960 members of a civilian advisory board may view a personnel file under section 143.089 g of 01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:16.360 the local government code will depend on one the board's status and function as part of 01:07:16.360 --> 01:07:23.720 the department and two limitations on the board's use of the g files to department purposes 01:07:23.720 --> 01:07:30.000 only which will depend on the specific facts of the board's appointment so even the attorney 01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:36.240 general here is questioning whether you can have a volunteer civilian advisory board have 01:07:36.240 --> 01:07:41.520 access to these confidential files I don't know the answer to that definitively there's 01:07:41.520 --> 01:07:50.280 been no court cases on it but this 2010 attorney general opinion kind of says maybe maybe not 01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:57.520 and as I said the devil is in the details another option what if the city council appointed 01:07:57.520 --> 01:08:05.800 a committee a board or commission and absent a legislated or negotiated change to the 143 01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:11.520 citizen volunteer access to g material may not be legally permissible I'm not saying 01:08:11.520 --> 01:08:19.720 100% definitively they cannot have it I'm just saying my concern is that if we put in 01:08:19.720 --> 01:08:28.720 a citizen volunteer panel with the existing state of the law the police union or an individual 01:08:28.720 --> 01:08:35.780 officer could file a lawsuit against the city seeking an injunction to prevent us from implementing 01:08:35.780 --> 01:08:42.860 any process that involves a citizen committee and ask the judge to rule whether or not citizen 01:08:42.860 --> 01:08:50.160 access to this g file material is lawful so so as you can see we're kind of getting from 01:08:50.160 --> 01:08:56.120 least in my opinion we can do it too I'm not sure we can do it so that's that's another 01:08:56.120 --> 01:09:04.360 option and and by all means just because I'm saying this don't don't not recommend something 01:09:04.360 --> 01:09:08.880 to the mayor and council if you think it's something you want us to consider I'm just 01:09:08.880 --> 01:09:13.960 trying to give you the the the lay of the land so to speak and what the law is but we're 01:09:13.960 --> 01:09:20.880 kind of getting further away from use of the department file by the department a fourth 01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:25.660 option might be and this is what I think I don't know if it was you Jamie if you brought 01:09:25.660 --> 01:09:32.560 up a citizen panel selected by the community again when you have a volunteer panel now 01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:38.040 you're getting even further away it's not the city manager it's not the chief it's 01:09:38.040 --> 01:09:42.760 not the city council it's the community who are picking these people you're now starting 01:09:42.760 --> 01:09:47.120 to get further and further away from what I think is a legally permissible use of that 01:09:47.120 --> 01:09:55.480 confidential file we also run into issues that we can't just put if it's a if this 01:09:55.480 --> 01:10:02.440 is a city sponsored program board commission or approved by the council we can't just put 01:10:02.440 --> 01:10:09.220 people on because of their race or their gender we can say we want diversity but to say it's 01:10:09.220 --> 01:10:15.640 only going to be people of this color or this religion or this or that I think that violates 01:10:15.640 --> 01:10:21.560 federal and state discrimination laws and the city can't condone setting up a group 01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:26.320 or working group or committee or commission that is based on people's race or gender or 01:10:26.320 --> 01:10:32.120 religion and then you know this is one of the things we talked about earlier who's going 01:10:32.120 --> 01:10:38.400 to be on this if we have a civilian group who's going to be on it if you start excluding 01:10:38.400 --> 01:10:44.960 people who either have an affiliation with law enforcement or family members you want 01:10:44.960 --> 01:10:49.360 the police buy-in the officers buy-in to this process they have to trust that it's going 01:10:49.360 --> 01:10:55.840 to be fair and if you start excluding people they may not have faith or trust in the process 01:10:55.840 --> 01:11:02.120 it's just something else to think about and then the last option I want to talk about 01:11:02.120 --> 01:11:07.040 and this was brought up I believe one of the officers what about the city's police and 01:11:07.040 --> 01:11:13.720 fire civil service commission and I don't think that's a viable option and here's why 01:11:13.720 --> 01:11:20.600 the commission has no oversight authority or role in officer misconduct under chapter 01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:27.280 43 the meeting confer agreement or the local rules that the civil service commission adopted 01:11:27.280 --> 01:11:33.260 the commission does have investigative authority but it's limited to investigating compliance 01:11:33.260 --> 01:11:39.800 with the civil service rules not misconduct and I think there's an inherent conflict of 01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:46.800 interest if the commission was involved in oversight because an officer can appeal discipline 01:11:46.800 --> 01:11:53.840 to the commission so how can the commission be an independent oversight board monitoring 01:11:53.840 --> 01:12:00.200 an investigation and then turn around and supposed to be a fair and independent appellate 01:12:00.200 --> 01:12:04.880 process for that very same case so I think there's just an inherent conflict in that 01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:12.640 and I don't think it's possible and and the commission by law only has access to police 01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:17.480 department internal affairs investigation records if the officer was suspended for a 01:12:17.480 --> 01:12:23.880 day or more so there's some legal impediments to the civil service commission being oversight 01:12:23.880 --> 01:12:32.160 they have their job under the law and it is not civilian oversight of police misconduct 01:12:32.160 --> 01:12:39.480 so those are some of the different options I do want to say that can we have oversight 01:12:39.480 --> 01:12:44.600 of the Denton police department absolutely I think we can the question though is going 01:12:44.600 --> 01:12:51.400 to be in what form and what are the responsibilities and duties going to be of the people involved 01:12:51.400 --> 01:12:57.640 in that process so hopefully I've given you a little some things to think about and I'm 01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:03.200 happy to answer any questions about any any of the slides in this last part of this presentation 01:13:03.200 --> 01:13:15.960 Kamiya let me get to where I was typing thank you so much for that info um you mentioned 01:13:15.960 --> 01:13:23.420 that the committees have a lot of the committees that you showed us have rules around no law 01:13:23.420 --> 01:13:31.280 enforcement no city workers no one that's been related to police but then you also mentioned 01:13:31.280 --> 01:13:36.040 the need for police buy-in so I was just wondering if there was evidence or information or some 01:13:36.040 --> 01:13:41.560 research around these cities that you have mentioned to us and whether or not there's 01:13:41.560 --> 01:13:49.640 buy-in have there been issues like what what's the deal there when I say buy-in it the the 01:13:49.640 --> 01:13:55.640 police officers if you want oversight have to have faith that this process is going to 01:13:55.640 --> 01:14:04.760 be fair and not judge them before all the facts are out there so chief do you want to 01:14:04.760 --> 01:14:14.320 address this at all I mean I mean there are there are officers around the country I know 01:14:14.320 --> 01:14:21.960 that do not trust oversight and are adamantly opposed to it and think it's nothing but you 01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:28.560 know a group of people who don't know what officers do who are out to get them but if 01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:35.160 you and here's something to think about if we're going to have oversight in Denton I 01:14:35.160 --> 01:14:40.840 would certainly recommend that we involve the police association because we need their 01:14:40.840 --> 01:14:48.320 agreement their input because if we put a process in that isn't fair that they see as 01:14:48.320 --> 01:14:52.480 biased against them one they're not going to support it they're not going to cooperate 01:14:52.480 --> 01:14:58.700 with it and I'm not sure that anybody really is going to benefit from a process that they 01:14:58.700 --> 01:15:05.640 vehement vehemently oppose and I'll let the chief talk about what he feels as far as maybe 01:15:05.640 --> 01:15:11.320 union buy-off or if you want to chief so the the other cities that have implemented this 01:15:11.320 --> 01:15:15.920 and they had to make amendments to their meet and confer contracts they had to get the police 01:15:15.920 --> 01:15:21.600 association buy-in if you don't have their buy-in like Mike said if they don't think 01:15:21.600 --> 01:15:25.720 the process is going to be fair and equitable kind of like the same process that we're going 01:15:25.720 --> 01:15:30.520 through right now the reason you all are assembled then they're not going to amend their the 01:15:30.520 --> 01:15:34.280 contract they're not going to agree to any amendments and then we're kind of stuck in 01:15:34.280 --> 01:15:40.720 this perpetual what can we do what do we do so that's the primary reason for it is if 01:15:40.720 --> 01:15:45.960 you don't get their buy-in then you're most likely not going to get any form outside of 01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:52.240 the most minimal and they'll fight it and what I mean by that is they'll challenge it 01:15:52.240 --> 01:15:59.880 every time every time the committee reviews a case they'll file a grievance or a lawsuit 01:15:59.880 --> 01:16:06.100 saying that's not authorized by chapter 143 of the agreement you can't do it so we certainly 01:16:06.100 --> 01:16:12.020 want to during negotiations if we're going to put it into the contract I'm not saying 01:16:12.020 --> 01:16:20.220 you should or should not but in my experience union input is really important then most 01:16:20.220 --> 01:16:24.960 importantly if I make a disciplinary decision and it's appealed that will be brought up 01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:33.500 during the appellate process so you have the the ability to greatly harm any disciplinary 01:16:33.500 --> 01:16:41.680 decisions that I make let me throw out one more thing I just want you all to think about 01:16:41.680 --> 01:16:48.080 if you have an oversight process have you all thought about are you going to be subject 01:16:48.080 --> 01:16:53.160 to being called as a witness in a disciplinary appeal are you going to be called as a witness 01:16:53.160 --> 01:17:00.400 in a civil trial a criminal trial if you're reviewing these cases and it ends up in a 01:17:00.400 --> 01:17:07.240 lawsuit or a criminal trial would you if you were one of these panel members would you 01:17:07.240 --> 01:17:12.960 want to be subpoenaed to court to testify about your role in the oversight process just 01:17:12.960 --> 01:17:18.440 something else to think about I know I want I would prefer and in fact in Austin in our 01:17:18.440 --> 01:17:23.920 contract it says that people involved in the oversight process cannot be subpoenaed in 01:17:23.920 --> 01:17:30.420 an administrative disciplinary appeal the issue has never come up about a civil suit 01:17:30.420 --> 01:17:37.000 or a criminal trial but in our contract we specifically put in that people involved in 01:17:37.000 --> 01:17:42.040 oversight cannot be subpoenaed by the city or the officer in a disciplinary appeal just 01:17:42.040 --> 01:17:49.760 something to think about and Mike would they in a particular situation where they would 01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:55.320 be on that committee are they covered would they be covered by errors and omissions by 01:17:55.320 --> 01:18:00.920 the city or would they have to have their own personal errors and omission insurance 01:18:00.920 --> 01:18:04.680 hadn't thought about that I'm not sure that they're I mean all they're doing is making 01:18:04.680 --> 01:18:10.600 recommendations they're not they're not making binding decisions on someone's employment 01:18:10.600 --> 01:18:20.000 or anything so I don't think I don't think that would be an issue okay I'm Pam and then 01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:24.640 camion even like even as a volunteer they wouldn't be covered though because like our 01:18:24.640 --> 01:18:31.040 board members are covered as volunteers you know I'd have to defer to Todd if he wants 01:18:31.040 --> 01:18:35.920 to answer if he knows yeah I'm just saying I don't know yeah yeah I don't think it would 01:18:35.920 --> 01:18:41.640 be an issue because I think it's a little bit different issue they'd be covered or no 01:18:41.640 --> 01:18:47.280 they wouldn't be covered two different things one I don't think would be an issue only because 01:18:47.280 --> 01:18:52.880 I think they're making simply recommendations which the mayor council or the chief can accept 01:18:52.880 --> 01:18:58.020 or reject so they're not making a binding decision like I think some other boards and 01:18:58.020 --> 01:19:02.860 commissions might have the authority is there anything you want to add on that Todd if not 01:19:02.860 --> 01:19:09.680 that they could still be sued I mean or party to a suit is my concern anyone can be sued 01:19:09.680 --> 01:19:18.400 for anything nowadays so it's always been that was my concern to Pam yeah I really hadn't 01:19:18.400 --> 01:19:22.840 thought about that I don't I do not know in my 20 years in Austin there has never been 01:19:22.840 --> 01:19:31.200 a single time that a police a member of the oversight art well the police monitor has 01:19:31.200 --> 01:19:37.280 been sued as a defendant alleging that she's hasn't done things properly but individual 01:19:37.280 --> 01:19:42.200 members of the citizens review committee that we had had never been named as a defendant 01:19:42.200 --> 01:19:47.700 in any kind of lawsuit I just wouldn't want to if we recommended this to tell them oh 01:19:47.700 --> 01:19:53.680 you you have coverage and then they actually don't it God forbid something did happen I 01:19:53.680 --> 01:19:58.360 would assume I'd want to check it out I would assume that they would have the same coverage 01:19:58.360 --> 01:20:05.120 as any other member of any other board or commission the Tina did you have your hand 01:20:05.120 --> 01:20:13.040 up I did I was gonna ask um she had her hand up I'm sorry she had her hand up before you 01:20:13.040 --> 01:20:20.080 did came in I didn't say it's okay I am was wondering for the police association are they 01:20:20.080 --> 01:20:28.280 like the ombudsman for the den police department or is there an ombudsman um yeah that's what 01:20:28.280 --> 01:20:37.600 I wanted to know what the association represents its membership um I represent the chief so 01:20:37.600 --> 01:20:41.240 I mean they're two different entities and I think they have a good relationship but 01:20:41.240 --> 01:20:48.560 you know like the police um like an officer's advocate like do y'all have I know for um 01:20:48.560 --> 01:20:54.600 the state they have the that whole ombudsman process where they're police advocates so 01:20:54.600 --> 01:21:02.200 who would be police advocates or what organization would that be so like a police association 01:21:02.200 --> 01:21:08.600 is there local advocates they're under the umbrella of either plead or tmpa and the officers 01:21:08.600 --> 01:21:14.280 have a right to choose either one of those but the den police officer association is 01:21:14.280 --> 01:21:23.560 the only one that can bargain with the city for labor rights here in the city so because 01:21:23.560 --> 01:21:30.600 my thoughts are that representation from some uh some group that is already established 01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:38.120 as um a police advocate organization might be helpful in getting the police buy-in so 01:21:38.120 --> 01:21:44.120 if there's one or two or however many you know that could be on the committee on the 01:21:44.120 --> 01:21:49.320 oversight committee then that would be that would ensure representation I guarantee you 01:21:49.320 --> 01:21:56.760 that if we ask the association for their input they will have one of their staff attorneys 01:21:56.760 --> 01:22:09.160 um on the committee um camion and then jamie yeah I had a couple questions so is it possible 01:22:09.160 --> 01:22:15.200 for the city manager to work with community members to appoint these folks are they allowed 01:22:15.200 --> 01:22:20.280 to get community input and then be the ones that choose or like has there has there ever 01:22:20.280 --> 01:22:29.280 been a collaboration in that way between the city and the community for boards and committees 01:22:29.280 --> 01:22:35.040 I don't I don't know what they've done in the past the the problem well the city manager 01:22:35.040 --> 01:22:43.200 certainly can solicit input to recommendations for who should be on this committee uh but 01:22:43.200 --> 01:22:48.480 I don't think the committee can choose those people themselves and again it goes to that 01:22:48.480 --> 01:22:54.840 issue of as you start creeping further away from the city manager's authority and appointing 01:22:54.840 --> 01:23:02.840 and removal uh you're just kind of creating a lot a less strong argument that these people 01:23:02.840 --> 01:23:12.640 should have access to this confidential information does that answer your question yeah um ultimately 01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:17.480 it sounds like it's up to the city manager which I understand especially to get the most 01:23:17.480 --> 01:23:22.240 buy-in and be able to change the 143 and all of that I get that part I'm just wondering 01:23:22.240 --> 01:23:27.280 if there's a way to collaborate with community members for that um my other question it's 01:23:27.280 --> 01:23:33.120 still the thing I had before I don't feel like I clearly got an answer around if there's 01:23:33.120 --> 01:23:39.880 evidence in these other cities that not having law enforcement or city employees has been 01:23:39.880 --> 01:23:45.120 prohibitive completely from being able to work with the police department on this as 01:23:45.120 --> 01:23:51.040 a community oversight board you mentioned they applied it a lot and I'm like what how 01:23:51.040 --> 01:23:58.120 many how is there information around like how many uh police have been like no we don't 01:23:58.120 --> 01:24:05.080 want this to these oversight boards in the cities that you mentioned I don't know specifically 01:24:05.080 --> 01:24:10.720 I know in Austin they started it before I got there in 2000 but I mean you hear all 01:24:10.720 --> 01:24:17.440 the time where if a community wants to institute some type of oversight there's pushback and 01:24:17.440 --> 01:24:21.520 resistance from the police because they don't trust that they don't trust that they're going 01:24:21.520 --> 01:24:25.840 to be treated fairly they don't think that they should be judged by people who haven't 01:24:25.840 --> 01:24:34.240 walked in their shoes I think so I don't know the answer to your question that if there's 01:24:34.240 --> 01:24:38.680 pushback I mean if there's pushback then the union is probably going to file a lawsuit 01:24:38.680 --> 01:24:44.760 to try to stop it but I'm sure that around the country there's been I mean I know I read 01:24:44.760 --> 01:24:51.280 about it that there's a lot of disagreement about oversight and doesn't mean that if the 01:24:51.280 --> 01:24:56.680 union doesn't get doesn't give their buy-in that it's not going to be successful or hasn't 01:24:56.680 --> 01:25:03.120 been successful I don't know we didn't really kind of ask in that much detail but it's probably 01:25:03.120 --> 01:25:07.880 a fair statement that if there's been a lot of animosity between a city and the union 01:25:07.880 --> 01:25:14.720 that is probably hindered the ability to have an effective oversight process I can't say 01:25:14.720 --> 01:25:21.760 that for a fact but it's probably not unreasonable to conclude that I mean I can certainly find 01:25:21.760 --> 01:25:27.200 out more information but I think it would really mean having to call these these different 01:25:27.200 --> 01:25:34.120 cities and say did you get union buy-in and yes or no and what's you think it's been effective 01:25:34.120 --> 01:25:39.640 if they've put up some resistance to it but that's a way to avoid it is let's get the 01:25:39.640 --> 01:25:43.840 union people involved in it and see if we can't come up with a system that we think 01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:50.080 is going to be effective and fair to not only the complainant but the officer I just I just 01:25:50.080 --> 01:25:57.200 am wondering how is the committee us can talk about the balance between community members 01:25:57.200 --> 01:26:04.460 having buy-in and feeling safe to participate in this structure as well as having police 01:26:04.460 --> 01:26:11.560 DPD buy-in and trust around the community oversight board to support the community members 01:26:11.560 --> 01:26:16.600 I'm just wondering what is the balance there and I know you don't have the answer I'm just 01:26:16.600 --> 01:26:29.080 posing that as a question to our group okay Jamie I'm I'm gonna share an observation first 01:26:29.080 --> 01:26:34.440 at least to make sure that I'm on maybe the a page that makes some sense and I'm gonna 01:26:34.440 --> 01:26:40.820 try to reframe what I think cameo's question is in my own way because I feel like I'm struggling 01:26:40.820 --> 01:26:48.740 similarly so let me start with my observation my observation is we have some members of 01:26:48.740 --> 01:26:56.680 our community that are apprehensive and distrustful that our law enforcement community treats them 01:26:56.680 --> 01:27:03.400 with equity right so that's one side and that do not feel comfortable using the processes 01:27:03.400 --> 01:27:11.680 that are already in place to share their feedback or concerns or whatnot you know either they're 01:27:11.680 --> 01:27:18.160 not taking advantage of the filing report or they they aren't doing that they're going 01:27:18.160 --> 01:27:23.800 to their trusted already community units maybe and talking about it and it doesn't get elevated 01:27:23.800 --> 01:27:31.080 to the department necessarily where something can be done that's potentially one observation 01:27:31.080 --> 01:27:40.680 on the other hand you have law enforcement community who rightfully so in my personal 01:27:40.680 --> 01:27:47.600 opinion believe what is Jamie Blanton know about being a good police officer other than 01:27:47.600 --> 01:27:53.080 what she's learned in these few hours of meeting together she's not done everything that I've 01:27:53.080 --> 01:27:58.960 done she doesn't understand how difficult it is to be on calls like that and like what 01:27:58.960 --> 01:28:07.200 the hell does she know right so you have you have that sort of idea as well what I am trying 01:28:07.200 --> 01:28:14.480 to understand is in a quantifiable way what's the cost benefit analysis for me as a member 01:28:14.480 --> 01:28:20.280 of this group of making that recommendation to have an oversight committee or not and 01:28:20.280 --> 01:28:26.480 so while I understand there's not a dollar amount attached to the committee in the same 01:28:26.480 --> 01:28:31.480 way there is a monitor like I like the monitor idea because I can attach a dollar amount 01:28:31.480 --> 01:28:37.760 to that and then I can determine if that dollar amount is worth it based on the number of 01:28:37.760 --> 01:28:43.160 complaints they see like that makes sense to me because I like to think linear linearly 01:28:43.160 --> 01:28:50.480 in that way so what I'm struggling with is with an oversight board that is voluntary 01:28:50.480 --> 01:29:00.320 that comes from all backgrounds who has no real authority is creating that entity or 01:29:00.320 --> 01:29:08.240 recommending that we create that entity going to end up costing our community more money 01:29:08.240 --> 01:29:15.760 time energy resources than it's going to save and so I understand that you can't paint me 01:29:15.760 --> 01:29:21.280 a financial picture in the same clear way but to me that's what I'm I'm looking at 01:29:21.280 --> 01:29:27.200 so to come back to what camion was asking for me what I heard her trying to ask in my 01:29:27.200 --> 01:29:41.720 own way was is there any way to show how many times in these cities the board has been like 01:29:41.720 --> 01:29:48.680 what's the word I'm looking for like push down or sued or where there's been like financial 01:29:48.680 --> 01:29:57.360 implications to having the board in place any like general umbrella statement at all 01:29:57.360 --> 01:30:01.760 I understand that you would have to probably call each of those cities back and get some 01:30:01.760 --> 01:30:08.360 specific information I'm just looking for like ballpark generalities because I feel 01:30:08.360 --> 01:30:14.400 like as a community whether it's looking at the picture nationally or locally there is 01:30:14.400 --> 01:30:21.080 a sense that there's a cost potentially to not doing it but I don't know that I know 01:30:21.080 --> 01:30:27.600 or understand what the cost would be to do it does that make sense at all and thank you 01:30:27.600 --> 01:30:41.160 for letting me sort of editorialize around to make my point I appreciate that that no 01:30:41.160 --> 01:30:46.360 I think it's an interesting question I think what we're what we see at least in Texas with 01:30:46.360 --> 01:30:54.560 the 143 cities is there's a general fear from the officers that that the oversight boards 01:30:54.560 --> 01:31:03.040 tend to be politicized which they get their back up even more you can you can follow the 01:31:03.040 --> 01:31:08.240 larger cities and the members of the citizen oversight boards these conversations have 01:31:08.240 --> 01:31:11.640 been going on for years and years they've evolved to a certain place and they realize 01:31:11.640 --> 01:31:16.160 they don't really have any authority and they get frustrated with that because they can't 01:31:16.160 --> 01:31:22.000 effectuate change without the associations the 143 stands in their way they don't have 01:31:22.000 --> 01:31:29.400 the ability to to see police records disciplinary records that becomes a big issue and you see 01:31:29.400 --> 01:31:36.000 this general sense of frustration from from the process which you know and I think the 01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:40.920 I think the volume issue is is is something that Mike's brought up that's it's a real 01:31:40.920 --> 01:31:46.000 variable here the monitors at least and I think I think the way to apply around that 01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:51.360 is some of the transparency initiatives that we've been talking about in terms of really 01:31:51.360 --> 01:31:54.400 what the community wants to know is are you taking these things seriously and what are 01:31:54.400 --> 01:32:00.560 you doing about it and you know and so I think that's kind of where we're heading right now 01:32:00.560 --> 01:32:05.280 and the way to address this but just watching and reading the papers in these cities and 01:32:05.280 --> 01:32:09.440 watching the cases and watching the politics and watching how some of the city councils 01:32:09.440 --> 01:32:15.120 also try to use the citizen oversight boards which does nothing but push the officers even 01:32:15.120 --> 01:32:21.360 further away it's their fear and it's and it's a justified fear based on what's been 01:32:21.360 --> 01:32:27.720 going on in some of these big cities so I think the I think getting into this sort of 01:32:27.720 --> 01:32:32.560 slowly making sure there's a lot of vetting of information that it's very transparent 01:32:32.560 --> 01:32:37.480 and and you know one of the things I've talked to the chief about is just you know getting 01:32:37.480 --> 01:32:41.040 out there at least on an annual basis with the report saying here's everything that happened 01:32:41.040 --> 01:32:46.040 last year here's a couple of cases here's to here's you know changes that we're making 01:32:46.040 --> 01:32:51.800 to training whatever it could be as a result of you know some of the criticism some of 01:32:51.800 --> 01:32:58.800 the oversight some of the best practice analysis it's probably the place to start but our officers 01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:03.760 get to read the clipping services just like we do and that is probably as motivating a 01:33:03.760 --> 01:33:08.000 factor and you know and some of their fears are very warranted based on what's happening 01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:16.520 in Austin and San Antonio and Dallas and that is going to be a very real issue so I think 01:33:16.520 --> 01:33:27.560 there's various ways to get there slowly without without completely polarizing the police association 01:33:27.560 --> 01:33:31.880 I don't think that they're looking to be polarized but I think there are ways of making incremental 01:33:31.880 --> 01:33:36.680 progress and and I think Michael's given you several options there that we can talk to 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:42.080 them about but that's that's just sort of the environment we're in right now even this 01:33:42.080 --> 01:33:46.400 process we're having to explain it's it's everything that we're doing it's a major change 01:33:46.400 --> 01:33:51.720 for folks and you know having this discussion it's a big difference has never been done 01:33:51.720 --> 01:33:58.040 it's a so everything that we're doing is is exponentially you know more than has been 01:33:58.040 --> 01:34:04.800 done in the past with this level of transparency and so it's just a matter of what are those 01:34:04.800 --> 01:34:11.320 first few steps to be taken I didn't really just to follow up on what Todd said one of 01:34:11.320 --> 01:34:15.480 the other options and I mentioned it briefly though is the chief could form a committee 01:34:15.480 --> 01:34:22.880 that meets let's say yearly does an audit of use of force complaints suspensions discipline 01:34:22.880 --> 01:34:32.800 but you know racial bias you know racial profiling and then the chief prepares a report and then 01:34:32.800 --> 01:34:38.080 does a public presentation to council once a year and that report is public so I mean 01:34:38.080 --> 01:34:43.800 that's another way of involving citizens in an audit yearly that the chief actually has 01:34:43.800 --> 01:34:49.880 to publicly present that to council it's just something else it's one of the options I put 01:34:49.880 --> 01:34:55.400 in that's like I mean number two but I just wanted to elaborate on that and the last thing 01:34:55.400 --> 01:35:01.560 we want to do is we don't want you folks and a committee to do a lot of work and then we 01:35:01.560 --> 01:35:06.840 get sued and we get an injunction and then we spend the next year or two in court and 01:35:06.840 --> 01:35:12.280 oversight is dead and that's kind of what happened in Austin when we were when we didn't 01:35:12.280 --> 01:35:18.480 have a contract for a year we had the police monitor kept going but the citizen oversight 01:35:18.480 --> 01:35:24.520 panel stopped for an entire year because we didn't think that they lawfully had access 01:35:24.520 --> 01:35:31.040 to the confidential files until we got a new contract now Austin put in a new 10 member 01:35:31.040 --> 01:35:37.240 panel so I just would hate to to do all this work and then we get an injunction and and 01:35:37.240 --> 01:35:45.000 we're basically stopped in our tracks well yeah just I just want to double check that 01:35:45.000 --> 01:35:51.240 I'm clear maybe going all the way back to Jesse's question about what these oversight 01:35:51.240 --> 01:35:56.440 committees really do and you said in essence they're making recommendations similar to 01:35:56.440 --> 01:36:02.320 this committee even but all of these different groups when you even just named perhaps you 01:36:02.320 --> 01:36:07.560 have a group with the chief that he meets with and they're looking at specific case 01:36:07.560 --> 01:36:16.280 you know excessive use of force those groups still they're not looking at the specific 01:36:16.280 --> 01:36:20.680 files right I'm trying to get in my mind like when even some of these lists that you've 01:36:20.680 --> 01:36:28.520 given us of I'm trying to remember maybe Galveston was one Houston you know they they 01:36:28.520 --> 01:36:33.800 monitor types of cases reviewed excessive force discharge of firearms incidents resulting 01:36:33.800 --> 01:36:40.920 in serious bodily is are they receiving something similar to what we've received in their review 01:36:40.920 --> 01:36:44.840 because they're not looking at the individual cases right because they're not legally allowed 01:36:44.840 --> 01:36:52.160 to do that based on 143 it depends on the process for an Austin for example the police 01:36:52.160 --> 01:36:59.080 monitor actually sits in on every interview of every witness every officer gets to see 01:36:59.080 --> 01:37:06.800 all the evidence so it's really going to depend and I can't speak to the specifics of what 01:37:06.800 --> 01:37:12.720 San Antonio Houston gets to see because I just don't know but every process is different 01:37:12.720 --> 01:37:22.200 and if you were to put oversight into a contract of course that's a negotiation you can specify 01:37:22.200 --> 01:37:29.840 those details what happens and everything but there is a question when you have volunteers 01:37:29.840 --> 01:37:36.680 is that attorney general opinion noted it's questionable whether if it's an ongoing internal 01:37:36.680 --> 01:37:42.360 affairs investigation which is confidential can those volunteers have real-time access 01:37:42.360 --> 01:37:47.520 to that documentation and the attorney general didn't give a definitive answer it was just 01:37:47.520 --> 01:37:56.640 kind of it depends on the details so I wish I could give you an absolute yes or no but 01:37:56.640 --> 01:38:03.560 unfortunately it's kind of one of those is really no definitive answer but you're saying 01:38:03.560 --> 01:38:11.560 in Austin they changed the contract because I'm because then Todd was saying of because 01:38:11.560 --> 01:38:14.380 they don't have any real authority and because maybe they don't have access then it turns 01:38:14.380 --> 01:38:19.400 in and spirals into this politicization thing but it sounds like maybe in Austin or at some 01:38:19.400 --> 01:38:26.200 places they do have more access so it is a little bit more of a significant recommendation 01:38:26.200 --> 01:38:31.240 because they've maybe seen some things yes and that's because they've negotiated in their 01:38:31.240 --> 01:38:41.080 meeting confer agreement the access okay that's that's that's really kind of a key is if you 01:38:41.080 --> 01:38:48.520 can negotiate with your association and contract and put in the specifics of what the and I'll 01:38:48.520 --> 01:38:56.560 be happy to get get this group a copy of the article in the Austin police contract that 01:38:56.560 --> 01:39:03.120 talks about oversight and what the monitor and panel the responsibilities and what they 01:39:03.120 --> 01:39:12.040 get to see and don't see that Austin is different Houston looks at San Antonio they all have 01:39:12.040 --> 01:39:18.820 contracts and in those contracts I don't remember if Houston does offhand but the contracts 01:39:18.820 --> 01:39:24.560 will specify the San Antonio contract for example they created this police advisory 01:39:24.560 --> 01:39:30.240 board in their contract so that's a way of getting around these restrictions to that 01:39:30.240 --> 01:39:37.960 g-file material is negotiating it with the Union but ultimately it still is like you 01:39:37.960 --> 01:39:44.040 said a recommendation more than anything else now if you want to negotiate something that 01:39:44.040 --> 01:39:49.680 says these recommendations are binding on the chief and you know if the city wants to 01:39:49.680 --> 01:39:55.840 negotiate that change you know a city can do that if they want to I don't know that 01:39:55.840 --> 01:40:02.360 I guess maybe it might be helpful for me to see because I think it's pretty clear with 01:40:02.360 --> 01:40:06.960 the monitor especially in the model that you gave us is the closer they are to the city 01:40:06.960 --> 01:40:11.360 manager or the chief obviously the more legal access they have but then the further you 01:40:11.360 --> 01:40:15.520 get and you get into these committee you know and you gave us all these different models 01:40:15.520 --> 01:40:25.200 in these different cities you know you don't want it to spin out of control because it's 01:40:25.200 --> 01:40:29.340 powerless and it can't really even know what's going on because you can't I mean it feels 01:40:29.340 --> 01:40:34.640 like that would be futility but it seems like maybe there are some groups that do have a 01:40:34.640 --> 01:40:38.200 little bit more access for one reason or another it might just be good to see the comparison 01:40:38.200 --> 01:40:45.200 of those so we even know what are we talking about you know yeah I'll tell you in Austin 01:40:45.200 --> 01:40:52.120 the police monitor and the panel can make recommendations to the police chief the police 01:40:52.120 --> 01:40:58.400 chief then has to respond in writing and I believe the current contract and past couple 01:40:58.400 --> 01:41:04.840 ones makes those recommendations public so if the committee recommends something let's 01:41:04.840 --> 01:41:09.880 say in training and the chief decides not to do it then he has to justify in writing 01:41:09.880 --> 01:41:14.800 why he's rejecting that argument that's going to be made public so that by itself is going 01:41:14.800 --> 01:41:20.440 to put some pressure on the chief to institute some of these changes so but again the group 01:41:20.440 --> 01:41:26.640 in Austin is making those recommendations to the chief based on a certain level of access 01:41:26.640 --> 01:41:31.440 that may be different with Alveston you're absolutely right get at is just which cities 01:41:31.440 --> 01:41:38.000 have what access and how does that inform whether it becomes what Todd was talking about 01:41:38.000 --> 01:41:43.000 or something maybe a little bit more fruitful in regards to collaboration between the department 01:41:43.000 --> 01:41:47.400 and the community where everybody feels safe and accountable and all those sorts of things 01:41:47.400 --> 01:41:51.760 for most of the cities that I'm talking about it's been negotiated access has been negotiated 01:41:51.760 --> 01:42:00.560 in their meet and confer agreements and I think the thing that's important to Michael 01:42:00.560 --> 01:42:06.440 can provide these provisions to you but each one of those cities gave you know gave something 01:42:06.440 --> 01:42:13.600 up to get that and you know with with San Antonio for instance there's there's very 01:42:13.600 --> 01:42:18.240 different benefit packages very different things that were so you just never know what 01:42:18.240 --> 01:42:23.720 what the trades were and I guess we could try our best to do that but even in those 01:42:23.720 --> 01:42:28.640 cities where you've seen you know the the access being granted to some extent with the 01:42:28.640 --> 01:42:34.080 panels they're simply recommending bodies which tends to be frustrated they still are 01:42:34.080 --> 01:42:39.400 subject to huge politicization I mean we're seeing that in Austin over and over again 01:42:39.400 --> 01:42:44.460 especially when they get sidelined over a meet and confer contract so it's it's one 01:42:44.460 --> 01:42:48.280 of those things where you know every situation is going to be a little bit differently and 01:42:48.280 --> 01:42:54.000 how it how it works if it can work and then once you don't have the contract they're 01:42:54.000 --> 01:43:00.240 put on pause so it it's not going to be clean we can certainly provide the language but 01:43:00.240 --> 01:43:04.840 there's going to be a backstory to every one of these that has to be taken into consideration 01:43:04.840 --> 01:43:10.360 and it's going to be a lot of time as well to get to a point where you can have those 01:43:10.360 --> 01:43:23.320 conversations little in hi and I just wanted to share just a couple of thoughts I completely 01:43:23.320 --> 01:43:27.600 understand what you guys are saying and as a member of the civil service commission I 01:43:27.600 --> 01:43:33.080 totally understand as well that it is frustrating and what the limitations are and how hard 01:43:33.080 --> 01:43:38.160 it is sometimes to even understand the role what we're we're tasked to do but I think 01:43:38.160 --> 01:43:43.240 as I've said listened to the presentation as I've heard you know all these different 01:43:43.240 --> 01:43:49.600 groups and what they have and it's clear to me that the chief has representation because 01:43:49.600 --> 01:43:55.440 it's the city attorney the officers have representation because those are the unions the only ones 01:43:55.440 --> 01:44:00.440 that I don't see have total representation or even a voice to voice frustrations or whatever 01:44:00.440 --> 01:44:04.880 they might feel are the residents and I think that that's from the moment that we started 01:44:04.880 --> 01:44:09.560 talking about oversight committees from weeks and weeks ago that's what was missing that's 01:44:09.560 --> 01:44:14.000 why we wanted to bring that up you know we wanted to at least feel that we have a voice 01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:21.200 now if a group of panelists formed in whatever capacity if it even is just to review certain 01:44:21.200 --> 01:44:25.680 cases with the chief wants or whatever at least there's a voice at least we can provide 01:44:25.680 --> 01:44:32.480 a recommendation but I think that the way things are right now that's that's the part 01:44:32.480 --> 01:44:38.400 that's missing I also was listening when someone said you know well who would appoint and the 01:44:38.400 --> 01:44:43.760 city manager would appoint I know that in the past or the way it's done now a council 01:44:43.760 --> 01:44:47.680 member might recommend a person to the city manager and then the city manager decides 01:44:47.680 --> 01:44:53.200 you know to be a point or not does the person want to do it you know do they meet minimum 01:44:53.200 --> 01:45:00.320 requirements and that's how they get appointed I don't see why that would be any different 01:45:00.320 --> 01:45:04.580 I don't I don't see why that would be or have to be any different for this specific committee 01:45:04.580 --> 01:45:11.280 now the recommendations that are done by this committee right and I understand the whole 01:45:11.280 --> 01:45:16.680 thing that the city manager is the chief's boss and to my understanding the way I understand 01:45:16.680 --> 01:45:21.480 government and the city council has the right to fire a city manager so in my opinion the 01:45:21.480 --> 01:45:26.760 city council is also supposed to be tasked or it's a it's a system of checks and balances 01:45:26.760 --> 01:45:32.960 right with what the city manager is doing so if at any moment um you know y'all mentioned 01:45:32.960 --> 01:45:38.320 under certain laws the city manager has the right to these personnel files the HR department 01:45:38.320 --> 01:45:42.840 has a right to the personnel files I don't see why the city council wouldn't I don't 01:45:42.840 --> 01:45:46.720 understand the whole thing about the attorney general I don't know if you know Mr. Cronin 01:45:46.720 --> 01:45:52.040 can say whether it's a definite no it's a hard no or it could be possible but why wouldn't 01:45:52.040 --> 01:45:55.840 we that would be another way to say well we do have representations because we're the 01:45:55.840 --> 01:46:00.440 ones that vote in our city council members so why wouldn't they have as much access as 01:46:00.440 --> 01:46:05.520 a city manager I'm also not in favor of a monitor I think that's just another person 01:46:05.520 --> 01:46:12.280 on payroll and honestly it's not to speak speak ill of anyone but it's just one more 01:46:12.280 --> 01:46:19.680 person on that on that same in that same structure and it's missing the citizen input right 01:46:19.680 --> 01:46:25.360 so those are just some thoughts I'm curious what other people might think and you know 01:46:25.360 --> 01:46:30.480 what's going on in everyone's mind right now in regards to that I do think the city council 01:46:30.480 --> 01:46:36.960 could appoint or make recommendations to the city manager and I think the most defensible 01:46:36.960 --> 01:46:41.600 way I don't know how the current ones are doing if the manager uh then picks from the 01:46:41.600 --> 01:46:47.080 recommendations but I certainly think council can have input into who's going to be on this 01:46:47.080 --> 01:46:55.040 panel uh the council as a body also has access to these confidential g-file materials because 01:46:55.040 --> 01:47:00.280 they're the governing body they set the uh budget for uh for the city and the departments 01:47:00.280 --> 01:47:07.080 and so as a body they do and they can under the ag opinion they can decide who else within 01:47:07.080 --> 01:47:14.120 the city government has a basically a business need to see those uh but again as you start 01:47:14.120 --> 01:47:19.680 getting into volunteers who aren't even city employees that's where the it becomes kind 01:47:19.680 --> 01:47:26.520 of hairy so I understand and I do I do think there's a way to do what you're saying part 01:47:26.520 --> 01:47:32.000 of what in Austin when someone comes in to file a complaint the monitor I don't I don't 01:47:32.000 --> 01:47:37.320 know if the word ombudsman is certainly the right word uh but they help them through the 01:47:37.320 --> 01:47:43.240 process tell them what's going to happen uh kind of give them feedback so I understand 01:47:43.240 --> 01:47:47.880 what you're saying that when someone comes in there's no one on their side there's just 01:47:47.880 --> 01:47:52.440 a citizen who doesn't understand what's going to happen and that may be something we can 01:47:52.440 --> 01:47:58.720 talk about of trying to develop some kind of a budsman uh position a person to help 01:47:58.720 --> 01:48:10.400 people who are filing complaints so they don't feel like they're alone 01:48:10.400 --> 01:48:15.320 Gary did you have your hand up yes madam thank you uh I'm gonna put you on the spot 01:48:15.320 --> 01:48:20.160 Michael you've given us several options I think you've heard the committee over a number 01:48:20.160 --> 01:48:26.440 of weeks um you know the two associations very well you understand the limitations so 01:48:26.440 --> 01:48:32.640 what is the best solution in your opinion for what we're trying to achieve in denton 01:48:32.640 --> 01:48:38.440 I don't know the associations for uh the chief knows them better than I do I've had very 01:48:38.440 --> 01:48:44.960 few dealings with them the most legally defensible one is to have a police monitor who is an 01:48:44.960 --> 01:48:51.200 employee uh that reports to the city manager uh is appointed by the city manager can be 01:48:51.200 --> 01:48:57.800 removed by the city manager uh I think that's the most legally defensible one uh and if 01:48:57.800 --> 01:49:05.040 you want to get a citizen panel my suggestion would be try to negotiate that through a meeting 01:49:05.040 --> 01:49:10.600 confer agreement uh I think that's probably the most legally defensible way to get a citizen 01:49:10.600 --> 01:49:17.320 panel in place that's just my based on my experience I just want to say thank you for 01:49:17.320 --> 01:49:23.320 all the research you've done you've provided a wealth of information you're welcome Jesse 01:49:23.320 --> 01:49:30.840 yeah two things really quickly first I kind of want to um clarify and qualify something 01:49:30.840 --> 01:49:36.200 uh Mike said a second ago about the the g file section g files the city council members 01:49:36.200 --> 01:49:42.160 don't have access to those individually we in our official capacities as a body you know 01:49:42.160 --> 01:49:46.840 the council can vote itself power to take a look at those files that's not something 01:49:46.840 --> 01:49:51.640 the city council can do now or that we could individually reach into those files or get 01:49:51.640 --> 01:49:56.320 permission to see those files individually uh without a pretty good reason acting as 01:49:56.320 --> 01:50:02.680 a body um the second thing Mike I wonder if you might say a word about open meetings and 01:50:02.680 --> 01:50:08.880 some of those groups on your list have open public meetings some of them don't and Denton 01:50:08.880 --> 01:50:14.680 almost every single board uh border commission that we have is subject to toma and uh Texas 01:50:14.680 --> 01:50:19.080 open meetings um we broadcast some of them over the internet just like we're doing this 01:50:19.080 --> 01:50:27.000 one can you say a word about um those groups that do and don't have public meetings anything 01:50:27.000 --> 01:50:33.040 you know about the reasons behind those that don't have public meetings um and what kind 01:50:33.040 --> 01:50:39.120 of implications that might have um I could think of some exceptions to toma for a group 01:50:39.120 --> 01:50:45.920 like that but what are some of the implications to having those meetings be public when we 01:50:45.920 --> 01:50:49.400 were drafting the language in Austin because and I keep going back to that because that's 01:50:49.400 --> 01:50:54.120 what I'm familiar with we talked about having a public hearing where the public could come 01:50:54.120 --> 01:50:59.960 in and hear their grievances part of the problem was that a lot of the things those panel uh 01:50:59.960 --> 01:51:05.440 those citizens want to talk about is confidential investigations that didn't result in discipline 01:51:05.440 --> 01:51:11.560 they're upset that nothing was sustained and the officer wasn't suspended so we were concerned 01:51:11.560 --> 01:51:18.760 that the panel members can they ask questions about a confidential matter are they going 01:51:18.760 --> 01:51:24.480 to be in a public forum discussing confidential information that they shouldn't be so that 01:51:24.480 --> 01:51:29.280 that was really the police association's concern is what's going to happen at these meetings 01:51:29.280 --> 01:51:34.760 are we going to have a citizen panel who just sits there like potted plants and listens 01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:41.040 and can't ask a single question and that is the way it originally started uh citizen comes 01:51:41.040 --> 01:51:46.560 in and complains and the committee members go and ask him any questions through the meet 01:51:46.560 --> 01:51:55.200 and confer contract over the year that's become more and more uh liberal so to speak uh where 01:51:55.200 --> 01:52:02.520 a lot more can be said but uh I tell you officers are not going to get up in a public meeting 01:52:02.520 --> 01:52:11.560 and defend themselves uh I can't think of any I was not the attorney for the uh oversight 01:52:11.560 --> 01:52:15.640 process in Austin because I was attorney for the police department's kind of a conflict 01:52:15.640 --> 01:52:22.240 there but you could probably count in 20 years on one hand how many police officers who were 01:52:22.240 --> 01:52:28.000 the subject of an investigation actually went and spoke to that committee especially if 01:52:28.000 --> 01:52:33.920 the person that complained against them was there as well so there are there are issues 01:52:33.920 --> 01:52:40.700 with what can be discussed uh and is it really nothing more the officers I think consider 01:52:40.700 --> 01:52:46.240 to be nothing more than a public uh I don't want to word the word lynching is not the 01:52:46.240 --> 01:52:52.440 right word obviously that has negative connotations but they feel like they're getting hammered 01:52:52.440 --> 01:52:58.360 in a public forum by someone coming in and saying how horrible they are and they're reluctant 01:52:58.360 --> 01:53:03.440 to get up there and defend themselves so there are issues with the public meetings and what 01:53:03.440 --> 01:53:10.280 can be discussed and confidential information some of these like you said processes do have 01:53:10.280 --> 01:53:17.380 public meetings I think Dallas does but it just again it just varies from from city to 01:53:17.380 --> 01:53:22.040 city about what their process is and what's going to take place at these meetings I wish 01:53:22.040 --> 01:53:26.880 I could give you more definitive but there there are legal concerns about what's going 01:53:26.880 --> 01:53:28.840 to take place at the at a public meeting 01:53:28.840 --> 01:53:37.000 Katina 01:53:37.000 --> 01:53:43.480 so I'm I'm still stuck on um what police officers would feel would be equitable in order for 01:53:43.480 --> 01:53:50.960 us to have an oversight committee I'd like to hear from um the officers um that are on 01:53:50.960 --> 01:53:57.840 the zoom call as well as Dr Williams because you all represent the department and work 01:53:57.840 --> 01:54:04.200 with officers so I'd like to hear what you think is fair and what would work for the 01:54:04.200 --> 01:54:11.360 citizens and the officers 01:54:11.360 --> 01:54:19.280 I can from my point of view um and it's it's why I asked the question earlier about what 01:54:19.280 --> 01:54:24.000 uh what the members on the committee what is their background and what is their you 01:54:24.000 --> 01:54:29.280 know what experience do they have uh in my opinion in order for something like that to 01:54:29.280 --> 01:54:36.120 work I think you would have to have someone who not necessarily police officers but someone 01:54:36.120 --> 01:54:43.680 who knows the the field knows the profession um I I had a conversation with someone a while 01:54:43.680 --> 01:54:51.400 back after one of these meetings and my example is that I don't think I'm qualified to sit 01:54:51.400 --> 01:54:57.680 on the medical board and determine if a medical professional is doing their job appropriately 01:54:57.680 --> 01:55:05.160 or you know correctly so I feel like someone would have to have some kind of working knowledge 01:55:05.160 --> 01:55:11.000 in a profession to be able to pass judgment on someone's profession you know I don't think 01:55:11.000 --> 01:55:16.680 I can speak to anyone else on the zoom call as far as if you're performing appropriately 01:55:16.680 --> 01:55:21.520 in your profession without me having some kind of previous knowledge or some kind of 01:55:21.520 --> 01:55:34.160 uh you know education in your profession so that's just my my take on it 01:55:34.160 --> 01:55:42.360 I'll tell you my take on it okay go ahead Nancy oh I'm sorry uh my take on it is a couple 01:55:42.360 --> 01:55:48.840 of a couple things one uh and I'm only speaking for me I'm not speaking for on behalf of all 01:55:48.840 --> 01:55:54.200 the officers of the association I'm speaking for myself uh you're gonna have to have somebody 01:55:54.200 --> 01:56:00.420 on the board that's fair uh fair is a big thing on being an officer we're always judged 01:56:00.420 --> 01:56:07.080 off of people biases or opinions so you also need to be impartial you know let all the 01:56:07.080 --> 01:56:12.480 facts present itself and then judge based off of the facts that present it not based 01:56:12.480 --> 01:56:16.960 off of your feelings or what you think your friends or family is going to say or how other 01:56:16.960 --> 01:56:22.440 community members is going to look out to you and uh I'll tell you one last thing Mike 01:56:22.440 --> 01:56:27.440 hit on it a couple of times is going to be the confidentiality a lot of times when you're 01:56:27.440 --> 01:56:32.640 going to be going into uh if you get a oversight board or whatever you're going to have you're 01:56:32.640 --> 01:56:37.000 going to receive confidential information or you're going to see some confidential information 01:56:37.000 --> 01:56:45.360 not only just of the officer but uh of the citizen themselves so if you are on the board 01:56:45.360 --> 01:56:51.840 or whatever how as an officer how do I know that you're going to keep that information 01:56:51.840 --> 01:56:57.200 just between you and the panel that's on the board and not go spread that out throughout 01:56:57.200 --> 01:57:03.080 the community because it's not just the officer on trial here or you know being judged here 01:57:03.080 --> 01:57:07.680 about a panel it's also the citizen that the officer that actually filed a complaint or 01:57:07.680 --> 01:57:15.000 the grievance against the officer uh so fair and impartial as well as the confidentiality 01:57:15.000 --> 01:57:25.200 that's going to be some of the big things that's especially in my boat Lillian I completely 01:57:25.200 --> 01:57:31.920 agree with um BNC I I would hope that the people on the school board the board of trustees 01:57:31.920 --> 01:57:36.320 members are fair and impartial and looking for the best education for all kids right 01:57:36.320 --> 01:57:41.680 I would hope that city council members are the same way um in response to officer um 01:57:41.680 --> 01:57:48.360 Nicholas um I I you know when when a city when a person runs for city council they're 01:57:48.360 --> 01:57:52.920 not experts in everything but they're tasked with making decisions that involves millions 01:57:52.920 --> 01:57:57.680 of dollars you know what I mean not all of them have the background that they might need 01:57:57.680 --> 01:58:02.040 so they have staff that provides the information I believe that they are probably responsible 01:58:02.040 --> 01:58:07.640 do their own research same with uh United States board of trustees they're not all former 01:58:07.640 --> 01:58:14.240 educators and so I don't believe that a person that is doesn't have a background in uh policing 01:58:14.240 --> 01:58:20.160 can't be a person on this on this panel um but I I do completely agree Yancy that they 01:58:20.160 --> 01:58:26.120 have to be impartial they have to um they have to have a willingness to to stand for 01:58:26.120 --> 01:58:31.480 the people and also uh and for the community and and officers are part of that community 01:58:31.480 --> 01:58:35.520 as well and so I just want to put that out there because I don't think it's fair for 01:58:35.520 --> 01:58:40.120 anyone to say no they can't do it when all of our representation look at our council 01:58:40.120 --> 01:58:45.320 our council members look at our Texas state reps none of them we have people running for 01:58:45.320 --> 01:58:50.800 you know other elected positions that have no kind of background are hair salon stylist 01:58:50.800 --> 01:58:55.680 owners you know and they're still running and so that doesn't disqualify anyone I believe 01:58:55.680 --> 01:59:00.000 one of the requirements to serve on the board we could put in that you have to undergo certain 01:59:00.000 --> 01:59:08.160 training by the department so we could put that in yeah just real quick um since you 01:59:08.160 --> 01:59:15.000 you were answering my questions um initially if they're regarding confidentiality if for 01:59:15.000 --> 01:59:20.280 the board um the oversight committee committee I'm sorry I'm so tongue-tied I'm not feeling 01:59:20.280 --> 01:59:31.480 well today I'm sorry um if there was a confidentiality agreement that any um disposing like disclosed 01:59:31.480 --> 01:59:39.480 disclosing of information would result in maybe a penalty of of forfeiture of the of 01:59:39.480 --> 01:59:47.560 the case or something like that could that leverage um you know the confidentiality and 01:59:47.560 --> 01:59:52.200 hold the person responsible knowing that if it's found out that you know you've discussed 01:59:52.200 --> 01:59:58.920 this case or you know disclosed any information that basically you're going to forfeit your 01:59:58.920 --> 02:00:06.040 position and and potentially the case could be thrown out would that be fair yeah we could 02:00:06.040 --> 02:00:11.640 do that and there's even state laws that might even deal make it criminal that if you disclose 02:00:11.640 --> 02:00:16.640 confidential information that you've come into because of your position potentially 02:00:16.640 --> 02:00:27.800 could be a crime I mean the way you get around a lot of this stuff is if the city and the 02:00:27.800 --> 02:00:32.520 union wanted to is you just put it in a contract and try to negotiate all of these issues so 02:00:32.520 --> 02:00:39.240 that we're all on the same page and we don't have to worry about them yeah my my my concern 02:00:39.240 --> 02:00:44.320 is that you know a lot of the things that I'm hearing from the officers would be the 02:00:44.320 --> 02:00:48.960 same things I would hear from people in the community and historically um that has been 02:00:48.960 --> 02:00:55.960 the experience of the community um no lack of representation um which I completely understand 02:00:55.960 --> 02:01:00.920 on the officer end you don't want to witch hunt um and I I personally wouldn't I mean 02:01:00.920 --> 02:01:07.680 I wouldn't want to witch hunt but everything that you're that I've heard so far in defense 02:01:07.680 --> 02:01:14.480 of you know protecting the officers I've heard you know and felt on the citizen side of protection 02:01:14.480 --> 02:01:22.600 representation um people doing their jobs um relying on the training and expertise versus 02:01:22.600 --> 02:01:31.720 you know winging it or you know having bias or abuse of power um so I feel like if we 02:01:31.720 --> 02:01:39.560 can come to some type of agreement that leverages you know for both sides um and gives opportunity 02:01:39.560 --> 02:01:49.360 for citizens to have a process of complaint that doesn't just stop at police but is um 02:01:49.360 --> 02:01:55.320 you know given over to the citizens to to the community but then at the same time knowing 02:01:55.320 --> 02:02:01.600 that there's going to be a high standard in ensuring that um there's not a witch hunt 02:02:01.600 --> 02:02:11.920 that is fair and equitable for officers and citizens jami I just um we had offered dr 02:02:11.920 --> 02:02:16.800 williams the chance to respond to the same question and I think our our group kind of 02:02:16.800 --> 02:02:20.920 jumped jumped in with questions and stuff so I just wanted to offer him if if you are 02:02:20.920 --> 02:02:32.320 interested in sharing your perspective I'd like to hear it dr williams hey good evening 02:02:32.320 --> 02:02:40.200 so I can't I can't speak to the concerns of the associations or the officers uh concerning 02:02:40.200 --> 02:02:53.560 any any reservations that they might have that's not something that I can speak to okay 02:02:53.560 --> 02:03:03.960 thank you um don't forget that all these ideas we're going to meet next week and we're going 02:03:03.960 --> 02:03:10.760 to put all of these into the top you know whatever top 10 top whatever um so we can 02:03:10.760 --> 02:03:16.360 start getting the recommendation together to go to council sarah you want to jump in 02:03:16.360 --> 02:03:24.920 on that one sure so patrick the facilitator from last week has taken the conversation 02:03:24.920 --> 02:03:31.720 the ideas some of the main themes and is developing a list we will send that in advance of next 02:03:31.720 --> 02:03:36.760 thursday's meeting to the committee um to kind of get you prepared for that next conversation 02:03:36.760 --> 02:03:43.000 on the 17th around um regarding to start to vote or have discussions around which recommendations 02:03:43.000 --> 02:03:47.640 the committee wants to put forward and in what priority um those recommendations may 02:03:47.640 --> 02:03:59.600 be made yes jamie so I may be the only one that's not able to attend next week's meeting 02:03:59.600 --> 02:04:04.420 um but just as a point of order since we are going to start voting and discussing those 02:04:04.420 --> 02:04:09.920 initiatives would preference be sarah for us to share our comments back via email so 02:04:09.920 --> 02:04:14.560 you can share them with the group or to wait until the following meeting or how would you 02:04:14.560 --> 02:04:21.880 like to handle that sure if you're unable to attend if you could email both chair english 02:04:21.880 --> 02:04:25.960 and myself we can share those thoughts with the committee members and then there would 02:04:25.960 --> 02:04:38.280 be the opportunity as well on the september 24th meeting yes both i've got another question 02:04:38.280 --> 02:04:42.480 about this i wanted to circle back to mr croney to give this isn't the time to do it that's 02:04:42.480 --> 02:04:49.960 okay i just i'll do you and then camion and then then that'll that'll be it yeah i just 02:04:49.960 --> 02:04:54.360 wanted to tie it off as i start thinking about even recommendations and thoughts convictions 02:04:54.360 --> 02:05:03.560 whatever from tonight mr krone you said okay gary asked you what's your legal and otherwise 02:05:03.560 --> 02:05:08.280 your perspective on what we should do you mentioned the the monitor is the most legally 02:05:08.280 --> 02:05:13.040 justifiable then you started to go down the road of you know some of these cities have 02:05:13.040 --> 02:05:17.520 both that and we discussed that a little bit whether it was worth having one in our city 02:05:17.520 --> 02:05:20.880 and then you went to the oversight board as well the potential of that and then we got 02:05:20.880 --> 02:05:29.280 lost into some weeds of it in all the models of the oversight board that you've portrayed 02:05:29.280 --> 02:05:35.120 that you've seen that you've thought about if if we were going to make a recommendation 02:05:35.120 --> 02:05:39.560 in that direction which one of those would you recommend the one that is connected to 02:05:39.560 --> 02:05:46.720 the chief the one that's connected to the city manager is there a particular form that 02:05:46.720 --> 02:05:53.480 you'd lean toward in that recommendation if we were going to make it i think from a practical 02:05:53.480 --> 02:06:00.400 standpoint if you want independence i think something that reports to the chief just isn't 02:06:00.400 --> 02:06:07.880 practical i think you want to go to the chief's boss and i think if you have a monitor that 02:06:07.880 --> 02:06:13.560 reports directly to the chief who's the supervisor to the city manager who's the supervisor of 02:06:13.560 --> 02:06:19.760 the chief i think you're going to get a lot more in my experience this the police monitor 02:06:19.760 --> 02:06:24.800 in austin reports to the city manager and i tell you when she calls him and says hey 02:06:24.800 --> 02:06:30.080 i got a problem with this uh the chief in austin gets a phone call usually from the 02:06:30.080 --> 02:06:35.000 assistant city manager about what's going on you know with this uh so i think that's 02:06:35.000 --> 02:06:45.640 probably the most effective oversight process is a monitor that is responsible to the chief 02:06:45.640 --> 02:06:53.080 i can tell you there's there's a feeling that sometimes oversight is 02:06:53.080 --> 02:06:58.420 if all they can do is make recommendations is it even any good is it a waste of everybody's 02:06:58.420 --> 02:07:04.880 time if the chief can simply say yeah thanks but no thanks so you know you can try to build 02:07:04.880 --> 02:07:11.480 in a process that has some some teeth but i would go with a police monitor i think a 02:07:11.480 --> 02:07:17.600 citizen panel if we can do it is important because then you actually have the citizens 02:07:17.600 --> 02:07:22.640 who are giving input and not just someone who's a paid employee of this of the city 02:07:22.640 --> 02:07:25.720 and i think that's real important that the citizens feel like they're actually having 02:07:25.720 --> 02:07:31.880 some stake in what's happening and making recommendations and making the chief answer 02:07:31.880 --> 02:07:38.320 to those recommendations why aren't you going to do this recommendation and making that 02:07:38.320 --> 02:07:45.080 public and make the chief report to council every year i think that's an incentive for 02:07:45.080 --> 02:07:51.080 the chief to to uh take these recommendations to heart but you're saying that citizen committee 02:07:51.080 --> 02:07:55.720 that was maybe the heart of my question you think that citizen committee should report 02:07:55.720 --> 02:08:00.880 or work directly with the chief or with the city manager i think the most defensible process 02:08:00.880 --> 02:08:09.600 is uh with if you made it part of the police department that citizen panel is part of the 02:08:09.600 --> 02:08:14.440 police department reports to the chief that's probably the most defensible because now it's 02:08:14.440 --> 02:08:19.640 part of the police department but i don't think that's practical you know i mean i don't 02:08:19.640 --> 02:08:23.520 think anyone on this committee thinks that a panel should report to the chief when their 02:08:23.520 --> 02:08:32.480 job is to oversee the chief i think i think it should report to the city manager thank 02:08:32.480 --> 02:08:44.080 you camion i just wanted to thank you um mr kronig for that information you just shared 02:08:44.080 --> 02:08:49.480 about uh community input as well as say that i do agree with yancey around people being 02:08:49.480 --> 02:08:55.880 impartial and um keeping things confidential if necessary especially to support community 02:08:55.880 --> 02:09:03.200 members as well as the police force i know that um last time i think it was yancey asked 02:09:03.200 --> 02:09:09.080 a question around what can community members do to actually help bridge the gap between 02:09:09.080 --> 02:09:17.480 police and the community and from the goals of a community civilian oversight board one 02:09:17.480 --> 02:09:23.480 of the number three goals is to improve public confidence in the police and i think a number 02:09:23.480 --> 02:09:28.800 of things that we've heard from den pd have been around there there's low complaints we 02:09:28.800 --> 02:09:36.320 heard that today there's fewer complaints um i think that if we had one it would increase 02:09:36.320 --> 02:09:40.960 support from the community and help bridge that gap whether we have law enforcement a 02:09:40.960 --> 02:09:45.440 part of the committee or not i don't think we've decided on that um but i just wanted 02:09:45.440 --> 02:09:50.240 to say i see this community oversight board as a way to bridge the gap between community 02:09:50.240 --> 02:09:56.320 members and police and i wondered if folks who are part of law enforcement or maybe just 02:09:56.320 --> 02:10:01.840 the chief saw or has any input around what jamie asked earlier around what would be the 02:10:01.840 --> 02:10:07.960 implications of not doing something like a civilian oversight board to help bridge the 02:10:07.960 --> 02:10:16.760 gap between community and the dpd like what do you i guess do you see an impact in not 02:10:16.760 --> 02:10:28.520 doing this that would harm further harm relations with the community 02:10:28.520 --> 02:10:33.520 we have a training advisory board that we meet with and talk with already we go in front 02:10:33.520 --> 02:10:36.680 of this i go in front of the civil service commission whenever they have questions about 02:10:36.680 --> 02:10:42.880 processes with civil service and i already present at least i can't count how many times 02:10:42.880 --> 02:10:48.920 i present presented the council in the last year on a myriad of different subject matters 02:10:48.920 --> 02:10:55.960 we produce an annual report annual use of force report um annual racial profiling report 02:10:55.960 --> 02:11:01.800 and they're all on the open data page right now as we speak so you know all those reports 02:11:01.800 --> 02:11:10.120 are out there and presenting them to council isn't going to be any more work because we 02:11:10.120 --> 02:11:17.280 do it already so like i said before my only concern is if you get a full-time monitor 02:11:17.280 --> 02:11:23.840 that doesn't have the workload for a full-time monitor what are they going to be doing and 02:11:23.840 --> 02:11:30.520 is that the most cost efficient for the citizens of denton to be paying for that in lieu of 02:11:30.520 --> 02:11:37.600 having someone that is on retainer or having a committee that i work with on an ongoing 02:11:37.600 --> 02:11:43.600 basis throughout the year jamie 02:11:43.600 --> 02:11:53.560 j-five a follow-up question do you feel like the citizen committees that you work with 02:11:53.560 --> 02:12:01.520 already are already doing enough work to help you build trust rapport and improve communication 02:12:01.520 --> 02:12:07.280 in the community do you feel like you have enough human beings doing that work with you 02:12:07.280 --> 02:12:13.520 that it or would it benefit you to have more in that army so to speak so i'll answer that 02:12:13.520 --> 02:12:18.240 by asking you a question how many people on this committee have reached out in your respective 02:12:18.240 --> 02:12:25.800 communities to help bridge the gap since you've been a part of this committee 02:12:25.800 --> 02:12:30.720 because that's what we're really missing is getting people to meet us and i could give 02:12:30.720 --> 02:12:35.960 you some examples of that but it's really going to take all of us working together and 02:12:35.960 --> 02:12:41.440 that part seems to get missed sometimes the police department can only do so much outreach 02:12:41.440 --> 02:12:45.080 we talked about that last week we can only hold so many events and show up different 02:12:45.080 --> 02:12:50.440 places we've got to have people want to come meet us you know meet me a quarter of the 02:12:50.440 --> 02:12:56.640 way not even halfway but give me a you know a show of goodwill so we can really make some 02:12:56.640 --> 02:13:02.640 good sustained change for everybody but yeah i think that we have more than enough people 02:13:02.640 --> 02:13:08.480 you look at all the leaders on this call right now in your respective communities we've got 02:13:08.480 --> 02:13:13.640 just a great city full of compassionate people it's just a matter of us working together 02:13:13.640 --> 02:13:23.880 towards the same goal 02:13:23.880 --> 02:13:30.600 all right well we're going to wrap it up for tonight and we'll be back here again next 02:13:30.600 --> 02:13:39.120 week and sarah you want to you got one more thing to say before we go no i do not okay 02:13:39.120 --> 02:13:44.440 the next meeting will be next thursday um september 17th at 6 pm and patrick will be 02:13:44.440 --> 02:13:53.280 back yes he will be all right good night everybody all right good night thank you