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 Good evening, this is the City of Denton Use of Force Ad Hoc Committee meeting Thursday

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 September 10, 2020.

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 We are going to start the meeting.

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 We will go first to Sarah and then Sarah will then Sarah will hand it over and we will

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 go into our presentation tonight.

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 Thank you Sarah.

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 Thank you Chair English and good evening committee members.

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 One second while I share my screen, I'm just going to review a few quick slides with you

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 and then I will turn it over to Michael Kronig who is our Deputy City Attorney and he'll

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 be reviewing tonight civilian oversight options as requested by the committee.

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 But before we begin into that presentation, I just wanted to provide a reminder of our

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 timeline, remaining timeline.

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 So we've run over this slide previously, so last Thursday the committee did start to discuss

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 some recommendations and common areas and themes.

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 We use a facilitator for that meeting, Patrick Ibarra and what he is doing is working on

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 framing up for the future discussion on September 17 where the committee will be discussing

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 and working on finalizing and prioritizing those recommendations.

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 So he is currently completing that work.

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 For tonight, our goal of the committee meeting is to provide information that was requested

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 by the committee regarding potential oversight options for use of force for the Denton Police

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 Department.

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 And the committee may begin some discussions around recommendations, but there will be

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 no voting on recommendations tonight that will continue on into September 17th regarding

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 all of the recommendations.

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 At the September 17th meeting, we'll also begin to review a draft framework for the

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 report and it's likely we may need a quick meeting on Thursday, September 24th for the

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 committee to review that final draft report and vote on that as well.

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 And then our goal is to bring that forward to the city council during their October 5th

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 luncheon.

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 And before I turn it over to Mike to review what are the potential external civilian oversight

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 options, I did want to remind the committee that we have provided information in regards

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 to our internal affairs division within the Denton Police Department.

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 So in terms of how we internally receive complaints and then investigate those complaints.

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 So a number of topics and information have been covered and you can see here I tried

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 to link from our previous meetings on July 16th, July 23rd and August 16th.

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 I'll kind of review a little bit of that information on the next three slides just as a way of

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 reminder.

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 I also want to point out to the committee that we have in the last few weeks started

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 a data initiative page for the Denton Police Department that's located at DentonPolice.com

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 and it includes a number of reports including some that the committee has seen previously.

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 And then as well at DentonPolice.com as way of reminder for any citizens that may be watching

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 or the general public, you can file complaints online through the website or through the

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 phone numbers listed here on the screen.

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 So at that July 16th meeting, previously Mike had covered some information in regards to

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 the Civil Service Act, the Meet and Confer Agreement and then in regards to investigations

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 of police misconduct.

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 There are a number of reports and data given during this meeting, it included just the

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 general DPD complaints over the last five years, a breakdown of complaints by year,

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 complaints by race, disciplinary suspensions by year, sustained complaints and forms of

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 corrective action.

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 So a number of different things were reviewed with the committee on that July 16th date.

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 Over the five-year period, we've had 539 complaints received and that's both internal and external

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 representing about 0.1% of the calls or contacts for Denton Police Department during that same

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 time period.

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 There were a total of 18 complaints during that five-year period that related to use

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 of force and tasers and you can see that broken out here in regards to 14 for use of force

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 and four for taser.

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 During that committee meeting on July 16th, the committee expressed if more information

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 could be provided regarding those 18 complaints and incidents and we actually came back that

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 following week on July 23rd and provided more information as legally permissible.

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 And so that's this report you see here on the screen, just kind of a screenshot to remind

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 you it had some summary information in regards to each one of those complaints including

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 the disposition of that complaint.

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 Also accompanying that report was the training dispositions as well for those complaints

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 that were sustained.

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 And then further on August 13th in your backup, we provided a report with more information

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 and there was just some general information in regards to how the Internal Affairs Division

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 has been restructured to enhance accountability.

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 So just kind of a before and after October 2018 and that's when Chief Dixon took command

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 of the Denton Police Department.

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 As you can see, a number of steps were taken to improve the processes and the accountability

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 and just by way of providing some information and a data point, you can see the total number

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 of complaints from 2017 to 2019, including going down to disciplinary suspensions and

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 then counseling and reprimands.

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 So it may have been a result of some of those improved processes and increased accountability

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 within the Denton Police Department.

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 So as the committee starts to look at part two, regards to use of force review and transparency,

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 a couple of questions for the committee to consider.

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 On this first question, we started to have the committee started to have some discussion

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 around last week in regards to recommendations to enhance reporting of information and transparency

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 of that information to the public.

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 And then secondly, does the committee think civilian oversight is needed?

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 And if so, in what form that is allowed?

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 And so at this time, I'll turn it over to Mike Kroening, who will provide more information

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 to the committee.

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 Thank you, Sarah.

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 Let me see if I can share this with everyone.

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 Hey, Willie, can you put your camera on mute?

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 Okay.

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 Let me start out first with you folks may be asking what experience do I have with oversight

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 that even qualifies me to talk about this.

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 When I joined the city attorney's office in Austin in 2000, March of 2000, the city had

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 just finished a citizen focus group on oversight for the police department.

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 They came up with a template for oversight.

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 We were sitting down with the police association at that time, and we were going to make oversight

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 part of the meet and confer agreement that we were negotiating at that time.

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 There were questions about whether citizen oversight had to be negotiated in the contract,

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 because if you remember, I was talking about those confidential files.

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 So we determined in 2000 that we were going to make oversight part of meet and confer

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 agreement.

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 And my job was to take that template and then basically write every article that was dealing

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 with oversight in the contract.

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 So I worked, I was the city attorney's representative on five meet and confer contract teams between

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 2000 and 2018.

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 My job was to write the oversight articles for each one of those contracts.

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 And then if the police association filed a grievance challenging something that was being

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 done in oversight, my job was to represent the city and defend that process.

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 So I've been involved in oversight and how it's related to state law and a meet and confer

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 agreement for 20 years.

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 So that's my background on oversight.

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 As Sarah pointed out, one thing, actually a couple of questions I'd like you to keep

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 in mind when I do this presentation.

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 The first one is, as she said, do we even need oversight?

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 That's I think the big question, do we need it?

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 And two, if you think we need it, what form should it take?

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 Should it be, and there's other cities, and I'll go into it a little bit, like Dallas

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 and Fort Worth and Austin that have a police monitor, one person with the staff, or should

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 it be a civilian review board, all the volunteers, or should it be a combination of the two?

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 So the first question is, do we need it?

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 Second question is, if we do, what form should it take?

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 And then a third question should be, what do you envision oversight doing?

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 Is it simply reviewing internal affairs investigations?

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 Do you think they should actually have the authority to do their own investigation with

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 subpoena power?

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 So those are the kind of questions that I'd just like you to keep in mind as I go through

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 this.

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 This presentation, the purpose of it is to discuss common goals of civilian oversight

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 of law enforcement.

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 I'm going to compare some of the civilian oversight in different Texas cities.

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 We did look at other cities around the country, but every city, every state has different

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 laws, different contracts, so I'm focusing on the Texas cities.

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 I think that's really what's more relevant.

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 Then going to talk about the limitations on civilian oversight for the Denton Police Department

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 that are imposed by Texas Local Government Code Chapter 143, and then the meet and confer

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 agreement that the city has with the Denton Police Officers Association.

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 And then the last part, I'm going to talk about potential models of civilian oversight

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 for the police department and kind of the pros and cons and what I think we can and

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 can't do.

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 Common goals of citizen oversight, the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law

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 Enforcement, NACo, that's their acronym, has identified the following common goals.

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 They are one, to ensure that the police complaint process is accessible to all and that there

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 are few, if any, barriers to the filing of complaints.

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 That can involve how complaints are taken, putting out that information in different

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 languages, that type of thing.

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 Second goal is to ensure that investigations are fair and thorough, the findings are reasonable,

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 and discipline is appropriate.

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 The third goal is to improve public confidence in the police.

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 Fourth, to enhance the transparency of police organizations by publicly reporting on the

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 police efforts and holding officers accountable.

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 Five, to improve the policies, practices, training, and management of law enforcement

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 agencies by analyzing patterns and complaints and other police-related data.

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 Sixth goal is to deter officers from engaging in misconduct through the creation of more

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 effective and consistent investigation and disciplinary processes.

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 Seven is to reduce legal liability associated with officer misconduct.

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 Eight, to improve the public's understanding of police policy, training, and practices

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 through community outreach and other avenues such as mediation of citizen complaints.

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 And like I did in my last presentation, after I have a slide where we'll stop and see if

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 anyone has any questions, Nicole published a webinar about a month ago, and I've brought

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 this up before.

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 There's not one size that fits all, and these are the statements that they said.

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 The complexities of social and political contexts make identifying successful practices employed

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 in one jurisdiction transferring them to another a challenging and unreliable task fraught

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 with potential errors of interpretation and extrapolation.

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 Then they said, "Jurisdiction should focus on the best fit rather than best practices

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 when considering how to structure civilian oversight."

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 And I think this last one is real important.

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 It is impossible to suggest that any one model of oversight is better than another.

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 Each jurisdiction must evaluate its own police agency, its culture, its leadership, its overall

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 current capacity to police itself, and its future potential in that regard before choosing

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 the most appropriate form of oversight that will have the highest likelihood of success

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 over time.

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 So that kind of goes back to what I said, there isn't one size that fits all.

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 You folks need to review all the information that we've given you and come up with recommendations

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 that you think work and fit best for Denton, not what works in Austin or Dallas or New York

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 City.

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 Does anyone have any questions about that kind of background information?

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 I do, but I'm really sorry because my dog is barking.

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 She's wild because someone's doing something outside.

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 But you mentioned before that your experience has something to do with, I didn't understand

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 the agency or contract you were talking about is related to this.

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 At the very beginning, I don't understand what that is.

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 Could you explain that a little more?

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 Sure.

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 Yeah.

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 The civilian oversight was created and incorporated into the meet and confer agreement that the

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 City of Austin has with the Austin Police Association.

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 So the oversight has to follow and comply with the contractual provisions that the association

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 and the city agreed to.

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 And a little bit, and a few slides, I'll be talking about some limitations that Denton

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 has because of provisions that we have in our meet and confer agreement with the police

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 association.

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 Thank you for that explanation.

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 I also wondered if you could put back up the slides that talked about the goals of a committee

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 oversight board.

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 There were like six or eight.

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 Sure.

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 Yeah, and this is taken directly from the NACOL webinar that I was referring to.

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 Is there anything specific you're focusing on, or you just want me to leave each slide

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 up for 30 seconds or so?

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 No.

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 There was one slide about the goals of an oversight board.

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 And let me see.

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 Is the slide up?

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 I don't see, we don't see any slides.

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 Let me see.

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 You might have to share your screen at the bottom.

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 Yeah.

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 Let me do this again.

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 Is it up now?

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 Okay.

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 And there's three slides, I believe, so I can go through each one if you'd like.

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 Okay.

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 That would be really helpful.

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 I'll just give you all a chance just to read this one again, and then I'll move on to the

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 other two.

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 Or if you have any questions about any one of these first four.

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 I'll go to the next one, and I'll go to the next one.

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 Actually I guess there was only two slides that dealt with specific goals.

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 Is there anything specifically about any of those that you have a question about?

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 I didn't write these, so I can give you my opinion on what they mean, but I'm just taking

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 these directly from their, the NACOL website.

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 I didn't have a question.

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 I just wanted to be able to refer back to them during the discussion that we have later.

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 Sure.

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 They should be in your packet.

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 Okay.

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 I'll move on, then, if there's not any other questions on that.

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 I'm sorry, Michael.

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 I do have a question.

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 Yeah.

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 Sure, Travis.

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 So from your previous experiences, what is the background of the members that are on

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 these committees?

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 One of the slides that I'm going to address a little bit later on, different boards around

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 the country have different qualifications for people.

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 What I've seen in a lot of them is you can't be a police officer for that city, obviously.

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 It kind of makes sense.

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 You can't have a family member that's a police officer of that jurisdiction.

239
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,260
 Some of them say you can't hold a political office.

240
00:19:00,260 --> 00:19:02,840
 You have to be a resident of the city.

241
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:08,240
 They will have qualifications that you can't have any pending litigation against the city.

242
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:15,720
 Some of them have restrictions on criminal backgrounds, can't be a convicted felon.

243
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:24,740
 But they try to get people of diverse backgrounds, race, ethnicity, jobs.

244
00:19:24,740 --> 00:19:32,080
 And I'll get to, I think I talked about Houston a little bit, where I go into the different

245
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,040
 types of people that are on their commission there.

246
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:41,920
 But they try to get a diversity of education and experience and gender, race, all of those

247
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,000
 things.

248
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:50,320
 Anybody else?

249
00:19:50,320 --> 00:20:04,720
 Okay.

250
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,520
 The meet and confer contract -- well, I'll start with this first.

251
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:17,120
 If you remember, when I did my presentation a while ago, I talked about this provision

252
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:20,640
 of the Texas Local Government Code.

253
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:27,760
 And this was really kind of the big obstacle to any oversight process in the state of Texas

254
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,960
 for cities that have adopted Chapter 143.

255
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,720
 As I mentioned before, the voters have to approve it.

256
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:42,120
 The voters did approve Chapter 143 for Denton years, probably 40, 50 years ago, I think

257
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:45,520
 back in the '40s, I believe, but I may be wrong.

258
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,880
 But this is the one major, for lack of a better word, obstacle.

259
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:56,680
 Police department may maintain a personal file on a police officer employed by the department

260
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:02,240
 for the department's use, but the department may not release any information contained

261
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:08,680
 in the department file to any agency or person requesting information relating to a police

262
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:09,680
 officer.

263
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:16,120
 And when this is referring to department file, that includes internal affairs investigation

264
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:24,400
 files that did not result in the officer being suspended for at least one day, demoted, bypassed

265
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:31,720
 for a promotion, or indefinitely suspended, which is the civil service equivalent to firing.

266
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:38,520
 So this provision can only be changed by the legislature or through the meet and confer

267
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:39,680
 agreement.

268
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:46,800
 Now as I mentioned in Austin, we changed this through the meet and confer agreement by allowing

269
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:54,240
 a police monitor and a citizens review panel to have access to these confidential files.

270
00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:02,080
 I do want to clarify this a little bit, because if you read it, it says the department cannot

271
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:07,180
 release any information to anyone asking for it.

272
00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:14,480
 Back in 2000, the attorney general was asked an opinion about this and the opinion the

273
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:20,520
 attorney general issued at that point or at that time was that the city council or the

274
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:29,720
 governing body may authorize other people to review those confidential police department

275
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:39,240
 files, but in that case, it involved the city manager and the city attorney.

276
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:45,520
 Those were the two people that the attorney general ruled or opined could have access

277
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,240
 to these confidential files.

278
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:55,200
 And the reason the attorney general said that is because the city manager appoints the police

279
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,760
 chief, the city manager has the authority to remove the police chief, the city council

280
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:07,000
 does not, and the city manager is the supervisor of the police chief.

281
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:13,400
 So the city manager needs access to these files in order to do his supervision of the

282
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,080
 police chief and the police department.

283
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:22,800
 For the city attorney, we give legal advice to the police chief and to the city manager.

284
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:30,540
 So we need access to this confidential information for the city attorney to do his job.

285
00:23:30,540 --> 00:23:36,680
 So after the attorney general rendered that opinion back in 2000, the city council here

286
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:45,000
 in Denton passed an ordinance that authorized the city manager, the HR director, and the

287
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:51,640
 city attorney to have access to these confidential files.

288
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:52,640
 That's it.

289
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,040
 And there's been one other attorney general opinion that I'll talk about in a little

290
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:04,500
 bit that talks about citizen volunteer committee members access to these confidential files.

291
00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:09,800
 But I just wanted you to know that this is not an absolute.

292
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,400
 There is the ability for other people besides the police chief and people in the police

293
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,620
 department to have access to these confidential files.

294
00:24:18,620 --> 00:24:25,600
 But as you start getting further away from accountability to the city manager and the

295
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:32,060
 police chief, that's where the legal justification for getting access to these confidential files

296
00:24:32,060 --> 00:24:33,400
 starts to get very tenuous.

297
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,040
 And I'll explain that a little bit more.

298
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,780
 So that's one of the limitations on oversight.

299
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:48,180
 The other one is the meet and confer agreement with the police association.

300
00:24:48,180 --> 00:24:53,840
 And there's a provision in there about protected rights of officers that the officer who is

301
00:24:53,840 --> 00:25:01,020
 the subject of an investigation has the right to see certain evidence against him or her

302
00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:04,800
 prior to an interview.

303
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:13,480
 So if you want an oversight process that says, well, for example, an officer has the right

304
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:20,600
 to a copy of the complaint and to see this information 48 hours before he or she is interviewed

305
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,740
 by internal affairs.

306
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:28,560
 If you want an oversight process that has the authority to actually talk to and interview

307
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:37,880
 and investigate officers, that process still has to comply with this provision of the contract.

308
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:45,560
 And this is one that I think is probably even more important and a greater limitation.

309
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:51,920
 In the meet and confer agreement, there's a section that says there shall be no legal

310
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:58,400
 or administrative requirement, including but not limited to subpoena power or an order

311
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:04,140
 from the city manager or the department, the police department, that an officer appear

312
00:26:04,140 --> 00:26:12,820
 before or present evidence to any individual panel, committee, group, or form of any type.

313
00:26:12,820 --> 00:26:20,000
 So what this means is that if you have a citizen review panel that wants investigative power

314
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:26,360
 which would or subpoena power, which would include actually talking to that officer,

315
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:29,840
 the meet and confer agreement prohibits that.

316
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:35,640
 The officer cannot be forced to talk to a civilian oversight committee.

317
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,920
 That is a provision in the contract and we can't get around that.

318
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:40,920
 We negotiated it.

319
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,440
 It's an enforceable contract.

320
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:49,480
 So the 143 provision I just talked about and these two contract provisions are limitations

321
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:57,400
 on what we can do on civilian oversight in the city of Denton.

322
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:03,760
 What I did, and in a minute I'll see if you have any questions, what I did was put together

323
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:04,760
 this chart.

324
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:15,860
 I looked at Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, Galveston, Houston, and San Antonio.

325
00:27:15,860 --> 00:27:19,520
 All of them have a form of oversight.

326
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:28,240
 Austin, for example, Austin is subject to chapter 143 provision I referenced and they

327
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,200
 have a meet and confer agreement.

328
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:37,400
 They have a police monitor who is a full-time city employee that reports to the city manager.

329
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,280
 They have a, it's a 10 member, I just confirmed that today.

330
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,640
 They have a 10 member.

331
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:51,540
 They call it a, give you the exact name, community police review commission.

332
00:27:51,540 --> 00:27:57,520
 But that commission was created by the meet and confer agreement.

333
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,800
 Those volunteers are non-paid.

334
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,480
 They are appointed by the city manager.

335
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,720
 They can be removed by the city manager.

336
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,720
 The process in Austin does not have investigative or subpoena power.

337
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,640
 They have a police monitor.

338
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:23,560
 That police monitor can attend any interviews, can monitor investigations, can sit in on

339
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:29,000
 disciplinary meetings with the chief, but does not have the authority to conduct independent

340
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,960
 investigations.

341
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,480
 They can have public meetings for the panel.

342
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:41,280
 And the oversight process in Austin can review all types of cases, no limitations.

343
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,240
 Dallas, on the other hand, is not subject to chapter 143.

344
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:54,000
 So all the, the restriction that I was talking about, the 143-089-G confidential file, that

345
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,440
 does not apply to Dallas.

346
00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:02,400
 So what Dallas can do, they're not under the same limitations.

347
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,160
 So Dallas has a full-time paid police monitor.

348
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:14,600
 They have a 15-member advisory board to the chief, the city manager, and the council.

349
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,100
 They are not paid.

350
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:24,440
 None of the citizen volunteer processes in the state of Texas are paid, they're all volunteers.

351
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:30,360
 In Dallas, the city manager appoints the monitor, the council appoints the board.

352
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,640
 The city manager can remove the monitor.

353
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,840
 The council can remove the board members.

354
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:38,840
 Dallas is a little different.

355
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:45,000
 The monitor may conduct an investigation and can issue subpoenas.

356
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:51,320
 But the Dallas ordinance specifically says that the monitor cannot issue subpoenas for

357
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,320
 a city employee or police officer.

358
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:55,320
 That's part of their ordinance.

359
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,600
 I don't know why, but that's what it is.

360
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:07,480
 Dallas does have public meetings, the panel, and the monitor can review all types of cases.

361
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:13,840
 However, the citizen board only reviews critical incidents like shootings and deaths in custody

362
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,440
 and external complaints.

363
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,400
 There's just two cities there.

364
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,880
 Fort Worth is subject to 143, and they have a meet and confer agreement.

365
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,240
 They have a full-time monitor, full-time employee.

366
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,680
 They don't have a panel yet, and I don't know if they're going to.

367
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:39,200
 The city manager appoints the monitor, and if they do have a board, then the council

368
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,600
 will appoint those people.

369
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:47,480
 The city manager can remove the monitor, and if the council decides to have a board or

370
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,360
 commission, then the council members can review them.

371
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,520
 The police monitor in Fort Worth does not have an investigative of subpoena power.

372
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:02,720
 She can hold public meetings where people can come in and voice their complaints, and

373
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,680
 the monitor in Fort Worth can review all types of cases.

374
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:12,040
 Galveston is also a 143 city, and they have a meet and confer agreement.

375
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,760
 They do not have a police monitor.

376
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:22,920
 What they have is a seven-member advisory panel to the police chief, and that seven-member

377
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:29,280
 panel is appointed by the mayor and the council, very subject to removal by the council.

378
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,780
 The chief's advisory board does not have investigative subpoena power.

379
00:31:33,780 --> 00:31:40,040
 They do not hold public meetings, and as you can see, they do not review all types of cases.

380
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:46,160
 They review excessive force, discharge of firearms, incidents resulting in serious bodily

381
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:51,800
 injury or death, or any other cases requested by the chief.

382
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,200
 Let me do these last two, and then I'll kind of sum up.

383
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,400
 Houston is a little bit different.

384
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,400
 Houston is subject to Chapter 143, and they have a meet and confer agreement.

385
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,320
 They do not have a police monitor.

386
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:10,160
 They have a 29-member panel.

387
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,080
 It's divided into several, they have several different panels.

388
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,240
 I think it totals 29.

389
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,600
 I think the panels may be seven or eight people.

390
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,480
 They're appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the city council.

391
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,360
 The mayor can remove them.

392
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,660
 Houston is what they call a strong mayor system.

393
00:32:29,660 --> 00:32:34,120
 This panel in Houston does not have investigative subpoena power.

394
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,640
 They do not hold public meetings, and as you can see, they do not review every type of

395
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,840
 case either.

396
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,080
 Houston is a little bit different.

397
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:51,520
 Houston is subject to that provision, that 089(g) limitation provision.

398
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:58,280
 Their oversight process was instituted by the mayor or former mayor on an executive

399
00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,680
 order.

400
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:06,080
 I don't know how they did that because they are subject to that subsection (g) provision

401
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,520
 I referred to.

402
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,280
 The police association has not challenged.

403
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,840
 They haven't challenged it saying you have to negotiate that with us through the meat

404
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,700
 confer agreement.

405
00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:21,960
 And I've talked to some people down there, and I'm not sure if there was some side agreements

406
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,520
 or how that happened, but it has not been challenged.

407
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,040
 It is not part of their contract.

408
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,520
 It is something that the mayor put in himself.

409
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,600
 The last one I want to talk about is San Antonio.

410
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:35,600
 They are subject...

411
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:41,100
 Mike, before you leave Houston, how many years has that panel been in place?

412
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:43,840
 I don't know offhand, but it's been quite a while.

413
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:50,800
 I can get you the answer before we're done, but I don't remember when it began, but I'm

414
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:56,680
 sure it's at least 10, 10, 15 years.

415
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,080
 It's been there for a while.

416
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,820
 San Antonio is a 143 city as well.

417
00:34:02,820 --> 00:34:04,920
 They have a meat confer agreement.

418
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,320
 They do not have a police monitor.

419
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:13,200
 They have a chief advisory board made up of 14 members, half of them are police officers

420
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,480
 and half are citizens.

421
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:20,940
 The citizens are appointed by the council and the police representatives are appointed

422
00:34:20,940 --> 00:34:22,560
 by the chief.

423
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,480
 The citizens can be removed by the council and the police officers can be removed by

424
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,040
 the chief.

425
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,520
 They do not have investigative subpoena power.

426
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:41,000
 There are no public meetings, but this advisory board can hear testimony and they can hear

427
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,760
 and review any type of case.

428
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:52,400
 So as you can see, no two cities are really the same and you just have to kind of think

429
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:59,000
 about what you would want to, if we have oversight here, what you would want them to do of all

430
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,680
 of these different things, would you want a monitor, would you want a panel, who should

431
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,520
 appoint them, who can remove them, should there be public meetings, what type of cases

432
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,960
 should they do, should they have subpoena power.

433
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,320
 Those are all the types of things that I think when you folks make your recommendations that

434
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,480
 you need to consider.

435
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,640
 One other thing I just want to point out and this goes to the earlier question about who's

436
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:32,880
 on these panels, the citizen panels, I just looked at Austin, Dallas and Houston.

437
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,880
 For Austin, you cannot currently be a city of Austin employee, you cannot hold a public

438
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,600
 office and you cannot have an immediate family member who is currently or formerly employed

439
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,160
 by the Austin Police Department.

440
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,520
 For Dallas, you cannot be employed by the Dallas Police Department or have an immediate

441
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,160
 family member who is an employee of the Dallas Police Department.

442
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:01,520
 For Houston, you cannot hold a political office, you cannot be employed by any law enforcement

443
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,560
 agency, not just Houston.

444
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,280
 You cannot be an employee of the city of Houston, you cannot be an immediate family member of

445
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:15,120
 any Houston Police Department personnel and this was an earlier question.

446
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:22,280
 The 29 member panel that they have there includes experts in criminal justice, civil rights

447
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:29,240
 attorneys, retired judges and prosecutors, and academic experts and scholars.

448
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:34,680
 So that just kind of gives you an idea because I know one of the questions that I think Cameon

449
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:42,240
 you may have raised was who can be on this should they have any relation to the police

450
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:46,040
 department any relation to law enforcement totally.

451
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:51,560
 So I just wanted to show you at least these are the three major cities in Texas that have

452
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:57,960
 oversight and I just want I'm really just dealing with the relationship to someone in

453
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:03,440
 law enforcement or a family member so that's what this slide is about.

454
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:15,600
 So let me I'm happy to answer any questions about any of this question about the process

455
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:26,440
 of complaint as it pertains to those three agencies because the issue that I'm I guess

456
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:37,000
 trying to understand is like how these cases get to the committee because in my mind I'm

457
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:43,000
 thinking that it would it would be a great idea for us to not for that for an oversight

458
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,000
 committee to not have to deal with every single case and entrust you know the police department

459
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:55,640
 but then if people who are arrested or detained or whatever if they feel that they've gotten

460
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:02,960
 unfair treatment that they may be given the option to choose if they would like to request

461
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:08,400
 an oversight committee or if they would like to file a complaint so that we could get you

462
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:16,560
 know those funneled through and is that even a thing and then if and if if the oversight

463
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:24,000
 committee themselves if themselves if they come across a case that that they may take

464
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,360
 issue with that they could they they could have the option to review those cases but

465
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:42,680
 that by and large it would mostly be via the a complaint does that make sense yeah and

466
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:51,040
 you can write any process you want if you want in Austin for example the a person can

467
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:58,680
 go to the police monitor's office and file a complaint and then once it's investigated

468
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:05,880
 the police monitor can either take the complaint to the citizen panel depending upon the nature

469
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:12,560
 of the complaint or the citizen can ask I would like the panel to review my complaint

470
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,920
 so you can you know whatever recommendation you want to make that you think it should

471
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:22,680
 be this way or that way it's totally within you know your purview to make that recommendation

472
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,200
 all these different systems are a little bit different on how things ultimately might get

473
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:35,920
 to a citizen panel is there currently a system in place in Denton where people can make complaints

474
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:43,480
 and it's a pretty streamlined system I'll let let chief Dixon answer that for you yes

475
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,900
 there is so there's a number of different ways they can make a complaint currently they

476
00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:53,040
 can call in they can do them online they can come in and do them anonymously through a

477
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,280
 drop box that we have in the lobby or they can come in and meet with internal affairs

478
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:05,160
 which is not located in the police department it's located where parks used to be if they

479
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:12,000
 if they're being arrested is there a process like with within the arrest where they can

480
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:17,000
 request absolutely anybody can anytime you can ask for a supervisor you can say I want

481
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,760
 to make a complaint and then the officers will get a supervisor over they'll take the

482
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:26,400
 information and forward it to internal affairs but they have to initiate that correct so

483
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,320
 they would have to know that they can make a complaint or is it like you have the right

484
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:41,480
 to file a complaint no the person has to ask has to initiate it okay Jamie my question

485
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:48,000
 is in regards to those cities with the monitor do you happen to have any information about

486
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:56,080
 what type of job description or qualifications those people typically have yeah I've been

487
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:02,240
 involved in the writing the job description at least in Austin I can tell you about that

488
00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:10,200
 originally when we hired our first monitor back in 2002 2003 somewhere in there they

489
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:19,640
 wanted someone that was an attorney had no prior affiliation with the city and trying

490
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:25,920
 to remember what else some of the qualifications were they I don't remember offhand but that

491
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:32,000
 is something that you folks if you think we should have a police monitor you can make

492
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,560
 recommendations as to what the qualifications for that person should be just like we would

493
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:45,760
 for any other job came on did you have and Rhonda did you have your hand up okay came

494
00:41:45,760 --> 00:42:02,600
 me on I have a few questions though so why I guess I'm wondering I just want to understand

495
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:08,920
 again I'm sure you explain this what is it that makes us a 143 like what's the difference

496
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:15,840
 between us and like Dallas what are they they're not a 143 yeah and your volumes a little low

497
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:25,840
 I don't know if I heard you question yeah okay chapter 143 provision of the local government

498
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:31,920
 code gives the voters of a city the right to hold an election whether or not they want

499
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:38,640
 to adopt chapter 143 for their city and I don't know how many offhand how many cities

500
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:47,360
 in Texas are trapped at 143 but there's probably got to be at least a couple hundred I believe

501
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:53,260
 what's that Frank 92 okay last time it was about yeah around 100 or something so it's

502
00:42:53,260 --> 00:42:59,240
 up to the voters whether they want to adopt that or not for example in Arlington the voters

503
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:04,400
 just approved a year or two ago chapter 143 but just for their fire department not for

504
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:10,040
 the police and that's because the fire fighters wanted chapter 143 but the police officers

505
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:16,300
 haven't asked the voters to approve it I don't know why Dallas has its own civil service

506
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:22,360
 system if they wanted to adopt chapter 143 I think the voters could put that on the ballot

507
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:33,280
 if they wanted to but they they haven't at this point okay I guess I was also wondering

508
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:41,520
 it looked like from a slide that our contract around the 143 or meet and confer I don't

509
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:48,820
 know if they're kind of the same thing indicates that you can't have subpoena power like it's

510
00:43:48,820 --> 00:43:54,520
 explicit in there and so I was just wondering if you could explain why that might get added

511
00:43:54,520 --> 00:44:01,320
 in if it goes beyond oversight boards like what is that all about well your contract

512
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:09,280
 doesn't express expressly say anything about civilian oversight and I'll see if the chief

513
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:14,840
 wants to address this my belief and I wasn't here when that contract was negotiated but

514
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:22,760
 before I came here I read that police contract and I looked at and I said I wrote that I

515
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:29,000
 wrote that language I think what they did is probably take some of the things from Austin

516
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:38,820
 and incorporated into this contract the language looks familiar so I think they may have cut

517
00:44:38,820 --> 00:44:44,640
 and pasted part of that into that but I don't know and I'll let the chief address it if

518
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:52,240
 he wants to I don't know that that provision was necessarily focused on oversight if we

519
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:58,540
 ever get it I think it was just kind of a cut and paste and but it's in there and an

520
00:44:58,540 --> 00:45:06,560
 officer if we put in an oversight process that allows a committee to subpoena an officer

521
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:12,780
 the officer will pull that contract out and say right here it says I can't be subpoenaed

522
00:45:12,780 --> 00:45:18,680
 and then what we probably would do I could say if we went to a grievance over that I

523
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,560
 could say well that wasn't intended for oversight because the oversight's not mentioned in the

524
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:29,560
 contract whatsoever and the officer and his lawyer would then say well but it's clear

525
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:34,480
 it says you can't subpoena me so I don't care what you meant by it that's very clear and

526
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:42,560
 explicit Frank did you want to address the oversight at all I think Jesse Jesse did you

527
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:54,680
 have your hand up I did go ahead chief and then Jesse Frank did you want to address the

528
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:59,800
 issue just of and I don't know if you were here when the contract is negotiated of including

529
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:06,160
 the officer rights article or I was and there was no talk about oversight at the time they

530
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,960
 were looking at a number of different from what I know I'm obviously on the management

531
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,520
 side not on the labor side but I just think they were looking at a number of different

532
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:21,440
 contracts around the state and they pull language that they liked and put in there I'm not saying

533
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:28,080
 that I mean weak that's a battle that we could fight about what does that language actually

534
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:35,240
 mean and what's the limitation on it and the con the meeting confer agreement has a dispute

535
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:40,520
 resolution process in it well we could go to an arbitrator who would rule on what that

536
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:46,000
 means but just the clear language says an officer can't be subpoenaed before any board

537
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:52,440
 or panel or anything like that so on its face you can argue that it it you can't subpoena

538
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:59,560
 someone but I have I think I have a good argument just the opposite way but my point in bringing

539
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:06,440
 that out was there are some potential contractual limitations as well to the form of oversight

540
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:13,880
 that you might want to recommend thank you for that I'm assuming that the subpoena power

541
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:19,520
 was added to the Austin agreement because of the oversight board yeah it was specifically

542
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:25,920
 the police association did not want officers subject to being called before a board like

543
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:31,280
 this so we as part of the negotiation overall negotiation for that contract we included

544
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:37,960
 that in there now let me just clear up yeah let me say one more thing the city manager

545
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:45,960
 or the police chief have the right to order an independent investigation so that provision

546
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:52,200
 about not being required to talk to anyone or subpoena does not apply to an independent

547
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:58,120
 investigation ordered by the chief or the city manager so that's kind of a totally separate

548
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:05,160
 issue than what I'm talking about on oversight I had another question are there ways in which

549
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:10,920
 panel members are added without being appointed directly by the mayor or not directly by an

550
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,160
 additional council like for instance I don't think didn't need the council and an oversight

551
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:22,360
 board but how could committee members be placed on it without being nominated by the mayor

552
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:28,000
 well he did say the city manager would place them on there well I mean I guess I'm wondering

553
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,800
 without city involvement like is there a way for folks to apply to be on it or like are

554
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:39,720
 there different models for that one of the issues and I'll get to it in a couple slides

555
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:46,680
 is as you start getting further away from accountability to either the police chief

556
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:53,220
 or the city manager the law starts getting very fuzzy as to whether or not volunteers

557
00:48:53,220 --> 00:49:00,080
 can have access to these confidential files if the city manager was to appoint these people

558
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:07,200
 who are accountable to him that's a stronger argument but it and some of the proposals

559
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,840
 that are the options that I talk about in the later slides actually deal with these

560
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:21,960
 issues maybe just cover it when we get there okay Jesse and then well thank you Mike you've

561
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:27,320
 done a lot of kind of going over the structure of things and how different cities put these

562
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:33,160
 groups together you have some more slides on you know options for Denton things we could

563
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,560
 look at could you tell us just a little bit if you think it's appropriate about what it

564
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:42,120
 is these groups actually do city by city you know if they get a complaint what do they

565
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,680
 do with that complaint you've told us about how they can investigate it but where does

566
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,960
 it go from there where do they send do they do a report did they are they accountable

567
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,480
 to somebody who's looking for their advice specifically like what is it that these groups

568
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:01,680
 actually get accomplished with their work when it comes right down to it all they do

569
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:07,540
 is make recommendations to whether it's to the police chief the city manager the city

570
00:50:07,540 --> 00:50:17,480
 council the mayor by state law only the chief can impose discipline and so ultimately that

571
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:23,760
 really is all they they do is make recommendations now they do like we've talked about they could

572
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:33,780
 have input into policies training investigations discipline in a sense that maybe making a

573
00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:38,920
 recommendation to the chief on a particular case now again it depends on whether or not

574
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:46,040
 they're going to have access to the the IA files but but ultimately they they recommend

575
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:51,800
 and that's really about it they don't have the authority to fire somebody or hire somebody

576
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:59,280
 they don't have the authority on their own to demand or implement policy changes but

577
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:04,480
 that's all kind of part of is this group what do you think oversight should do should they

578
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:13,800
 have more authority to not just to recommend or I'm not sure I answered it but it really

579
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:20,720
 is just an end of in an advisory capacity now there are some some oversight processes

580
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:26,800
 in other cities around the country that actually have some I won't say teeth to them but actually

581
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:32,920
 do have the authority to impose discipline and fire people we don't hear that state law

582
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:38,660
 gives that solely to the chief but again every every city around the country is operating

583
00:51:38,660 --> 00:51:50,440
 under different laws and maybe different employment contracts well yeah mr. Coney in terms of

584
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:56,480
 the the monitor the full-time monitor it's some of these departments as one who wrote

585
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:02,720
 the job description for that in Austin could you give us maybe just from your perspective

586
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:10,520
 the pros to having a full-time monitor in the department the cons to that what what

587
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:17,560
 from your vantage point in all your years or the pros and cons sure I reached out to

588
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:22,360
 my counterpart in Austin the other day and I asked him how many complaints have you had

589
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:30,200
 so far in 2020 and they've had about 1,500 complaints just this year alone now about

590
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:36,400
 a hundred of them or so from these recent protests so let's say probably by the end

591
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:42,680
 of the year it's probably safe to say Austin will have 2,000 complaints when you compare

592
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:50,080
 that with Denton how many we've had over the past five years of something this just my

593
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:55,040
 opinion but you folks can recommend something different I don't think you need a full-time

594
00:52:55,040 --> 00:53:03,840
 monitor if you want to recommend that one be put on the payroll and be an employee subject

595
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:09,600
 and accountable to the city manager you can make that recommendation or do you think we

596
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:15,160
 should have some kind of process where we have somebody on retainer that if it's a specific

597
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:20,840
 case a critical incident that we can hire that person to monitor the case or review

598
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:28,160
 it or something but I just don't and I'll even let the chief chime in if he thinks we

599
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:36,080
 we have the volume of complaints that we would need a full-time monitor just from my experience

600
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:43,440
 and working with the monger in a different city they would be very they wouldn't be busy

601
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:48,960
 so I don't know how proficient they could get unless you got someone that had experience

602
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:54,680
 they did it part-time but that's just looking at the volume of work that they would have

603
00:53:54,680 --> 00:54:01,800
 to do so the pros is really just if it gets if the number of complaints gets to a certain

604
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,800
 level you're saying that's whatever you would subjectively determine that to be that's really

605
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,600
 where the benefit of it comes in you've got one person devoted to doing that full-time

606
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:19,160
 but until then from your perspective it seems not not efficient I mean I don't see the low

607
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:23,200
 number of complaints being a bad thing I think that sometimes we can get caught in the trap

608
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:29,240
 of we don't have enough complaints well you know for me as the chief executive officer

609
00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:34,320
 it's kind of a good thing that we don't have a lot of complaints because it speaks to you

610
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,200
 know the department of the city overall I think the relationship between the department

611
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:43,600
 and the city although it's not perfect we're in a pretty good place and we work very well

612
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:49,500
 together this being one of the prime examples to it so that's just you know my observation

613
00:54:49,500 --> 00:55:00,280
 I have a question and then somebody just had their hand up oh Jamie just had their hand

614
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:06,880
 what in comparison our department we have we don't quite have 200 police officers so

615
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:13,520
 in comparison to the other departments that you put up what is the number of officers

616
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:22,000
 that they have Austin has around 2,000 Houston has I think around 5,500 San Antonio I don't

617
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:27,760
 know offhand but I don't believe they have more than Austin Galveston is a small department

618
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:35,080
 I don't know Dallas I think has maybe around 3,000 or something like that so of course

619
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,960
 when you have more employees at bigger cities you're going to have more citizen contacts

620
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:47,320
 more complaints so I can understand the need for them to want a full-time monitor as you

621
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,560
 can see those bigger cities also tend to have a lot more officer involved shootings which

622
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:56,880
 we don't fortunately we don't have here so you know just based on my experience and as

623
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:02,920
 the chief pointed out I just don't see that you need a full-time monitor on the payroll

624
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:07,840
 ultimately that's a decision for somebody else but I just don't think there's the workload

625
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:17,760
 or need for it it's just my opinion okay Jamie and then Pam my question actually was answered

626
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:25,920
 in that so I'm good now if you were at were if the recommendation was made to get a monitor

627
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:32,800
 on retainer how difficult do you think that would be mr. Conning I'll defer to I'll defer

628
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:38,360
 to the city manager on hiring processes and how that would work just wondering how difficult

629
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:44,680
 that process might be for you all well I think is the chief said if it's if it's a part-time

630
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:52,280
 employee yeah I'm retaining I don't I don't think it would be that difficult there are

631
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,840
 there are firms around the country that have been set up with ex-police executives in fact

632
00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:00,480
 that's something the chief and I talked about at one point was you know do would we want

633
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:05,520
 to bring somebody in to take a look at our policy updates best practices give us some

634
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:12,560
 feedback on on how certain incidents were handled but I think that the the contract

635
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:18,000
 relationship brings somebody in you know we do this at DME for instance with our trading

636
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:23,160
 floor bringing somebody in every quarter every six months to take things give us some feedback

637
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:28,400
 on best practices training curriculum it can be done okay thank you I was just wondering

638
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:36,120
 cost wise so it would be less if that recommendation was made thank you yeah um I think Jamie has

639
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:42,920
 a question and then Willie did you have your hand up okay and Jamie and then I think after

640
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:50,160
 that we'll move on to the next portion my question is in direct response to the city

641
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:55,320
 manager it's a follow-up to what you were stating about some of the other potential

642
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:03,160
 contractual work related to training and policies and things like that um that's something I'd

643
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:09,200
 like for you to kind of describe a little bit more in terms of if if we as a collective

644
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:16,800
 group decided that we thought it might be a good idea to have a monitor on retainer

645
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:22,240
 or something could they also do some of the additional pieces that we may be recommending

646
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,840
 is that kind of what you're thinking or is it an entirely different thing no I think

647
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:32,480
 I think they work together we've we've spent quite a bit of time and and are getting close

648
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:38,000
 to having most of our policies updated best practices updated right now and a monitor

649
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:43,640
 that's under contract is going to have the expertise to evaluate situations against the

650
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:49,740
 best practices and provide us with that expert feedback on where additional training might

651
00:58:49,740 --> 00:58:55,600
 be needed where you know if there's any holes that need to be fixed any other suggestions

652
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,480
 so that is what they're going to do but they wouldn't be the ones actually putting the

653
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:04,020
 training program in place they would be evaluating what they're what they're saying how the officers

654
00:59:04,020 --> 00:59:08,400
 behaviors as sorts of things against the best practices in the in the up-to-date policies

655
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,880
 and there could be an opportunity where they would actually even suggest that we create

656
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,840
 different training opportunities depending on what they're saying so it actually works

657
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:27,520
 in conjunction with one another go ahead Jamie I'm sorry Cheryl I promise to no you're fine

658
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:34,440
 Mike my question now Mr. Cronick is for any of the the cities that you looked at that

659
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:42,240
 do have a panel or board what is the tenure of those positions is it a one-year appointment

660
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:47,800
 to and how many of those can I have can I sit on it until the end of time or did you

661
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:54,920
 have any details about that everyone is different sometimes they try to have staggered appointments

662
00:59:54,920 --> 01:00:00,320
 so that not all of them have to be reappointed but I think they're usually two or three year

663
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:06,480
 appointments and there may be ability it's like the Civil Service Commission Mr. Baines

664
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:13,160
 I believe I think you can be reappointed certain times and again that's you know that that's

665
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:19,040
 saying the devil's in the details if you if you write a an oversight process you can put

666
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:23,200
 that in there can't serve more than three consecutive two-year terms or whatever you

667
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:28,560
 want to do you can craft whatever process you want now part of what I'll have to do

668
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:33,120
 is whatever recommendations are made is go back and see if there we can do it under the

669
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:37,960
 law and under the contract but those are things that you folks can just say here's what we

670
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:44,200
 recommend this is the way it we would like to see it Todd is there consistency for those

671
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,720
 terms across city boards and other commissions is there sort of a Denton standard or does

672
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:55,200
 it vary by each commission it varies by each commission we have some that are two three

673
01:00:55,200 --> 01:01:11,920
 and four so it's all over the board yes Kamiya thank you Michael you mentioned that there's

674
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:17,800
 no oversight boards that pay volunteers I'm assuming you got all of my recommendations

675
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:26,720
 for oversight I'm wondering if there if there's any research even outside of Texas of folks

676
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:31,640
 that played a small stipend for I just am a believer of paying folks for their mental

677
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:38,400
 and emotional labor and not like a huge stipend like when we have interns we pay them a small

678
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:43,720
 stipend right like it's not like paying them to be part-time or anything but just something

679
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:49,240
 I just didn't know if that was ever a precedent in any other city I don't know but let me

680
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:54,760
 ask you this if you're going to pay this board a stipend then I think as a matter of fairness

681
01:01:54,760 --> 01:02:01,660
 once you have to pay people who serve on other city boards and I would agree with you yeah

682
01:02:01,660 --> 01:02:07,480
 but I don't know it is possible I know in the municipal civil service commission in

683
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:14,360
 Austin which here's deals with the non-sporn people those commission members have wanted

684
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:19,400
 to and feel like they should be paid for their meetings and the last I knew they weren't

685
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:25,840
 paid and I don't know if council had put that on the on their agenda but none of the boards

686
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:31,760
 of commissions that I'm aware of in Austin or anywhere else around here get paid doesn't

687
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:37,640
 mean you can't as far as I know I mean it's an issue we'd have to look at but again it's

688
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:49,880
 a matter of fairness to you know for every other person on a board and commission anybody

689
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:56,300
 else so we'll move we'll have my go to the next presentation thank you so what I tried

690
01:02:56,300 --> 01:03:08,160
 to do is come up with what are some options so what I tried to do was kind of go from

691
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:14,200
 the most defensible to the least defensible and based on my experience the attorney general

692
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:20,160
 opinion that I referenced the most defensible structure is a police monitor that is a city

693
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:26,560
 employee or an independent contractor that reports to the city manager now as I mentioned

694
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:33,840
 back in 2001 the council passed this ordinance that allowed the city manager and the city

695
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:39,820
 attorney and the HR director to have access to these files if we hired a police monitor

696
01:03:39,820 --> 01:03:44,440
 that was reporting to the city manager then my recommendation would be that we amend this

697
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:51,160
 ordinance to allow that person to have access as well and why could that person monitor

698
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:57,440
 have access to these files that person would be acting as the eyes and ears of the city

699
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:03,440
 manager who as I said is the direct supervisor of the police department and the police chief

700
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:09,480
 so a police monitor is acting on behalf of the city manager and that's why I believe

701
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:17,280
 a police monitor who reports to the manager would lawfully have access to these materials

702
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:21,200
 another option too is you could make the monitor a paid employee of the law department that

703
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:28,220
 reports to the city attorney who also has lawful access to these materials this structure

704
01:04:28,220 --> 01:04:33,680
 in my opinion does not require an amendment to chapter 143 by the legislature or a meet

705
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:41,360
 and confer process now I will tell you this in Austin the police association felt like

706
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:47,960
 we could not even have a police monitor without a provision in the meet and confer contract

707
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:56,920
 and when we did not have a contract in 2018 this police association sued the city and

708
01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:02,000
 I believe from what I remember I was in the courtroom the judge rejected their argument

709
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:08,480
 that we could not have a police monitor absent a contract so I believe a police monitor reporting

710
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:15,540
 to the manager is legal and valid even without a contract so I think that's the most legally

711
01:05:15,540 --> 01:05:23,320
 defensible process another option is what if the police chief creates or utilizes an

712
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:30,840
 existing police department committee to review or audit police department operations and the

713
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:35,040
 chief could create a committee or utilize an existing committee that includes dentin

714
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:41,720
 residents to periodically review or audit police department policies practices training

715
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:47,580
 internal affairs operations and again this is a volunteer committee and as I said when

716
01:05:47,580 --> 01:05:53,160
 you start getting into volunteer issues it starts getting more tenuous whether or not

717
01:05:53,160 --> 01:06:06,200
 they can have access to these confidential police department internal affairs investigations

718
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:14,200
 okay thanks so I do believe that the chief could create a utilize an existing committee

719
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:20,360
 now as I say here at the end is noted in age is AG opinion which is on the next slide there

720
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:26,360
 may be limitations so if the chief has a committee an existing committee who wants to create

721
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:37,440
 one to advise him that issue came up back in 2010 and this involved a police citizen

722
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:43,600
 review board appointed by city council and the attorney general opinion didn't tell me

723
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:49,560
 which city and it was a police civilian review board appointed by the council and assigned

724
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:56,760
 to the police chief as an advisory board to review disciplinary matters use of force cases

725
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:02,720
 weapon discharges those types of things and here's what the attorney general said whether

726
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:10,960
 members of a civilian advisory board may view a personnel file under section 143.089 g of

727
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:16,360
 the local government code will depend on one the board's status and function as part of

728
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:23,720
 the department and two limitations on the board's use of the g files to department purposes

729
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:30,000
 only which will depend on the specific facts of the board's appointment so even the attorney

730
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:36,240
 general here is questioning whether you can have a volunteer civilian advisory board have

731
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:41,520
 access to these confidential files I don't know the answer to that definitively there's

732
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:50,280
 been no court cases on it but this 2010 attorney general opinion kind of says maybe maybe not

733
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:57,520
 and as I said the devil is in the details another option what if the city council appointed

734
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:05,800
 a committee a board or commission and absent a legislated or negotiated change to the 143

735
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:11,520
 citizen volunteer access to g material may not be legally permissible I'm not saying

736
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:19,720
 100% definitively they cannot have it I'm just saying my concern is that if we put in

737
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:28,720
 a citizen volunteer panel with the existing state of the law the police union or an individual

738
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:35,780
 officer could file a lawsuit against the city seeking an injunction to prevent us from implementing

739
01:08:35,780 --> 01:08:42,860
 any process that involves a citizen committee and ask the judge to rule whether or not citizen

740
01:08:42,860 --> 01:08:50,160
 access to this g file material is lawful so so as you can see we're kind of getting from

741
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:56,120
 least in my opinion we can do it too I'm not sure we can do it so that's that's another

742
01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:04,360
 option and and by all means just because I'm saying this don't don't not recommend something

743
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,880
 to the mayor and council if you think it's something you want us to consider I'm just

744
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:13,960
 trying to give you the the the lay of the land so to speak and what the law is but we're

745
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:20,880
 kind of getting further away from use of the department file by the department a fourth

746
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:25,660
 option might be and this is what I think I don't know if it was you Jamie if you brought

747
01:09:25,660 --> 01:09:32,560
 up a citizen panel selected by the community again when you have a volunteer panel now

748
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:38,040
 you're getting even further away it's not the city manager it's not the chief it's

749
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:42,760
 not the city council it's the community who are picking these people you're now starting

750
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:47,120
 to get further and further away from what I think is a legally permissible use of that

751
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:55,480
 confidential file we also run into issues that we can't just put if it's a if this

752
01:09:55,480 --> 01:10:02,440
 is a city sponsored program board commission or approved by the council we can't just put

753
01:10:02,440 --> 01:10:09,220
 people on because of their race or their gender we can say we want diversity but to say it's

754
01:10:09,220 --> 01:10:15,640
 only going to be people of this color or this religion or this or that I think that violates

755
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:21,560
 federal and state discrimination laws and the city can't condone setting up a group

756
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:26,320
 or working group or committee or commission that is based on people's race or gender or

757
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:32,120
 religion and then you know this is one of the things we talked about earlier who's going

758
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:38,400
 to be on this if we have a civilian group who's going to be on it if you start excluding

759
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:44,960
 people who either have an affiliation with law enforcement or family members you want

760
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:49,360
 the police buy-in the officers buy-in to this process they have to trust that it's going

761
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:55,840
 to be fair and if you start excluding people they may not have faith or trust in the process

762
01:10:55,840 --> 01:11:02,120
 it's just something else to think about and then the last option I want to talk about

763
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:07,040
 and this was brought up I believe one of the officers what about the city's police and

764
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:13,720
 fire civil service commission and I don't think that's a viable option and here's why

765
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:20,600
 the commission has no oversight authority or role in officer misconduct under chapter

766
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:27,280
 43 the meeting confer agreement or the local rules that the civil service commission adopted

767
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:33,260
 the commission does have investigative authority but it's limited to investigating compliance

768
01:11:33,260 --> 01:11:39,800
 with the civil service rules not misconduct and I think there's an inherent conflict of

769
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:46,800
 interest if the commission was involved in oversight because an officer can appeal discipline

770
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:53,840
 to the commission so how can the commission be an independent oversight board monitoring

771
01:11:53,840 --> 01:12:00,200
 an investigation and then turn around and supposed to be a fair and independent appellate

772
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:04,880
 process for that very same case so I think there's just an inherent conflict in that

773
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:12,640
 and I don't think it's possible and and the commission by law only has access to police

774
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:17,480
 department internal affairs investigation records if the officer was suspended for a

775
01:12:17,480 --> 01:12:23,880
 day or more so there's some legal impediments to the civil service commission being oversight

776
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:32,160
 they have their job under the law and it is not civilian oversight of police misconduct

777
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:39,480
 so those are some of the different options I do want to say that can we have oversight

778
01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:44,600
 of the Denton police department absolutely I think we can the question though is going

779
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:51,400
 to be in what form and what are the responsibilities and duties going to be of the people involved

780
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:57,640
 in that process so hopefully I've given you a little some things to think about and I'm

781
01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:03,200
 happy to answer any questions about any any of the slides in this last part of this presentation

782
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:15,960
 Kamiya let me get to where I was typing thank you so much for that info um you mentioned

783
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:23,420
 that the committees have a lot of the committees that you showed us have rules around no law

784
01:13:23,420 --> 01:13:31,280
 enforcement no city workers no one that's been related to police but then you also mentioned

785
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:36,040
 the need for police buy-in so I was just wondering if there was evidence or information or some

786
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:41,560
 research around these cities that you have mentioned to us and whether or not there's

787
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:49,640
 buy-in have there been issues like what what's the deal there when I say buy-in it the the

788
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:55,640
 police officers if you want oversight have to have faith that this process is going to

789
01:13:55,640 --> 01:14:04,760
 be fair and not judge them before all the facts are out there so chief do you want to

790
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:14,320
 address this at all I mean I mean there are there are officers around the country I know

791
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:21,960
 that do not trust oversight and are adamantly opposed to it and think it's nothing but you

792
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:28,560
 know a group of people who don't know what officers do who are out to get them but if

793
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:35,160
 you and here's something to think about if we're going to have oversight in Denton I

794
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:40,840
 would certainly recommend that we involve the police association because we need their

795
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:48,320
 agreement their input because if we put a process in that isn't fair that they see as

796
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:52,480
 biased against them one they're not going to support it they're not going to cooperate

797
01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:58,700
 with it and I'm not sure that anybody really is going to benefit from a process that they

798
01:14:58,700 --> 01:15:05,640
 vehement vehemently oppose and I'll let the chief talk about what he feels as far as maybe

799
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:11,320
 union buy-off or if you want to chief so the the other cities that have implemented this

800
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:15,920
 and they had to make amendments to their meet and confer contracts they had to get the police

801
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:21,600
 association buy-in if you don't have their buy-in like Mike said if they don't think

802
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:25,720
 the process is going to be fair and equitable kind of like the same process that we're going

803
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:30,520
 through right now the reason you all are assembled then they're not going to amend their the

804
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:34,280
 contract they're not going to agree to any amendments and then we're kind of stuck in

805
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:40,720
 this perpetual what can we do what do we do so that's the primary reason for it is if

806
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:45,960
 you don't get their buy-in then you're most likely not going to get any form outside of

807
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:52,240
 the most minimal and they'll fight it and what I mean by that is they'll challenge it

808
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:59,880
 every time every time the committee reviews a case they'll file a grievance or a lawsuit

809
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:06,100
 saying that's not authorized by chapter 143 of the agreement you can't do it so we certainly

810
01:16:06,100 --> 01:16:12,020
 want to during negotiations if we're going to put it into the contract I'm not saying

811
01:16:12,020 --> 01:16:20,220
 you should or should not but in my experience union input is really important then most

812
01:16:20,220 --> 01:16:24,960
 importantly if I make a disciplinary decision and it's appealed that will be brought up

813
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:33,500
 during the appellate process so you have the the ability to greatly harm any disciplinary

814
01:16:33,500 --> 01:16:41,680
 decisions that I make let me throw out one more thing I just want you all to think about

815
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:48,080
 if you have an oversight process have you all thought about are you going to be subject

816
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:53,160
 to being called as a witness in a disciplinary appeal are you going to be called as a witness

817
01:16:53,160 --> 01:17:00,400
 in a civil trial a criminal trial if you're reviewing these cases and it ends up in a

818
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:07,240
 lawsuit or a criminal trial would you if you were one of these panel members would you

819
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:12,960
 want to be subpoenaed to court to testify about your role in the oversight process just

820
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:18,440
 something else to think about I know I want I would prefer and in fact in Austin in our

821
01:17:18,440 --> 01:17:23,920
 contract it says that people involved in the oversight process cannot be subpoenaed in

822
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:30,420
 an administrative disciplinary appeal the issue has never come up about a civil suit

823
01:17:30,420 --> 01:17:37,000
 or a criminal trial but in our contract we specifically put in that people involved in

824
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:42,040
 oversight cannot be subpoenaed by the city or the officer in a disciplinary appeal just

825
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:49,760
 something to think about and Mike would they in a particular situation where they would

826
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:55,320
 be on that committee are they covered would they be covered by errors and omissions by

827
01:17:55,320 --> 01:18:00,920
 the city or would they have to have their own personal errors and omission insurance

828
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:04,680
 hadn't thought about that I'm not sure that they're I mean all they're doing is making

829
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:10,600
 recommendations they're not they're not making binding decisions on someone's employment

830
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:20,000
 or anything so I don't think I don't think that would be an issue okay I'm Pam and then

831
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:24,640
 camion even like even as a volunteer they wouldn't be covered though because like our

832
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:31,040
 board members are covered as volunteers you know I'd have to defer to Todd if he wants

833
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:35,920
 to answer if he knows yeah I'm just saying I don't know yeah yeah I don't think it would

834
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:41,640
 be an issue because I think it's a little bit different issue they'd be covered or no

835
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:47,280
 they wouldn't be covered two different things one I don't think would be an issue only because

836
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:52,880
 I think they're making simply recommendations which the mayor council or the chief can accept

837
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:58,020
 or reject so they're not making a binding decision like I think some other boards and

838
01:18:58,020 --> 01:19:02,860
 commissions might have the authority is there anything you want to add on that Todd if not

839
01:19:02,860 --> 01:19:09,680
 that they could still be sued I mean or party to a suit is my concern anyone can be sued

840
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:18,400
 for anything nowadays so it's always been that was my concern to Pam yeah I really hadn't

841
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:22,840
 thought about that I don't I do not know in my 20 years in Austin there has never been

842
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:31,200
 a single time that a police a member of the oversight art well the police monitor has

843
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:37,280
 been sued as a defendant alleging that she's hasn't done things properly but individual

844
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:42,200
 members of the citizens review committee that we had had never been named as a defendant

845
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:47,700
 in any kind of lawsuit I just wouldn't want to if we recommended this to tell them oh

846
01:19:47,700 --> 01:19:53,680
 you you have coverage and then they actually don't it God forbid something did happen I

847
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:58,360
 would assume I'd want to check it out I would assume that they would have the same coverage

848
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:05,120
 as any other member of any other board or commission the Tina did you have your hand

849
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:13,040
 up I did I was gonna ask um she had her hand up I'm sorry she had her hand up before you

850
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:20,080
 did came in I didn't say it's okay I am was wondering for the police association are they

851
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:28,280
 like the ombudsman for the den police department or is there an ombudsman um yeah that's what

852
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:37,600
 I wanted to know what the association represents its membership um I represent the chief so

853
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:41,240
 I mean they're two different entities and I think they have a good relationship but

854
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:48,560
 you know like the police um like an officer's advocate like do y'all have I know for um

855
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:54,600
 the state they have the that whole ombudsman process where they're police advocates so

856
01:20:54,600 --> 01:21:02,200
 who would be police advocates or what organization would that be so like a police association

857
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:08,600
 is there local advocates they're under the umbrella of either plead or tmpa and the officers

858
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:14,280
 have a right to choose either one of those but the den police officer association is

859
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:23,560
 the only one that can bargain with the city for labor rights here in the city so because

860
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:30,600
 my thoughts are that representation from some uh some group that is already established

861
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:38,120
 as um a police advocate organization might be helpful in getting the police buy-in so

862
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:44,120
 if there's one or two or however many you know that could be on the committee on the

863
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:49,320
 oversight committee then that would be that would ensure representation I guarantee you

864
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:56,760
 that if we ask the association for their input they will have one of their staff attorneys

865
01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:09,160
 um on the committee um camion and then jamie yeah I had a couple questions so is it possible

866
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:15,200
 for the city manager to work with community members to appoint these folks are they allowed

867
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:20,280
 to get community input and then be the ones that choose or like has there has there ever

868
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:29,280
 been a collaboration in that way between the city and the community for boards and committees

869
01:22:29,280 --> 01:22:35,040
 I don't I don't know what they've done in the past the the problem well the city manager

870
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:43,200
 certainly can solicit input to recommendations for who should be on this committee uh but

871
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:48,480
 I don't think the committee can choose those people themselves and again it goes to that

872
01:22:48,480 --> 01:22:54,840
 issue of as you start creeping further away from the city manager's authority and appointing

873
01:22:54,840 --> 01:23:02,840
 and removal uh you're just kind of creating a lot a less strong argument that these people

874
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:12,640
 should have access to this confidential information does that answer your question yeah um ultimately

875
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:17,480
 it sounds like it's up to the city manager which I understand especially to get the most

876
01:23:17,480 --> 01:23:22,240
 buy-in and be able to change the 143 and all of that I get that part I'm just wondering

877
01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:27,280
 if there's a way to collaborate with community members for that um my other question it's

878
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:33,120
 still the thing I had before I don't feel like I clearly got an answer around if there's

879
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:39,880
 evidence in these other cities that not having law enforcement or city employees has been

880
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:45,120
 prohibitive completely from being able to work with the police department on this as

881
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:51,040
 a community oversight board you mentioned they applied it a lot and I'm like what how

882
01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:58,120
 many how is there information around like how many uh police have been like no we don't

883
01:23:58,120 --> 01:24:05,080
 want this to these oversight boards in the cities that you mentioned I don't know specifically

884
01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:10,720
 I know in Austin they started it before I got there in 2000 but I mean you hear all

885
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:17,440
 the time where if a community wants to institute some type of oversight there's pushback and

886
01:24:17,440 --> 01:24:21,520
 resistance from the police because they don't trust that they don't trust that they're going

887
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:25,840
 to be treated fairly they don't think that they should be judged by people who haven't

888
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:34,240
 walked in their shoes I think so I don't know the answer to your question that if there's

889
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:38,680
 pushback I mean if there's pushback then the union is probably going to file a lawsuit

890
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:44,760
 to try to stop it but I'm sure that around the country there's been I mean I know I read

891
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:51,280
 about it that there's a lot of disagreement about oversight and doesn't mean that if the

892
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:56,680
 union doesn't get doesn't give their buy-in that it's not going to be successful or hasn't

893
01:24:56,680 --> 01:25:03,120
 been successful I don't know we didn't really kind of ask in that much detail but it's probably

894
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:07,880
 a fair statement that if there's been a lot of animosity between a city and the union

895
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:14,720
 that is probably hindered the ability to have an effective oversight process I can't say

896
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:21,760
 that for a fact but it's probably not unreasonable to conclude that I mean I can certainly find

897
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:27,200
 out more information but I think it would really mean having to call these these different

898
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:34,120
 cities and say did you get union buy-in and yes or no and what's you think it's been effective

899
01:25:34,120 --> 01:25:39,640
 if they've put up some resistance to it but that's a way to avoid it is let's get the

900
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:43,840
 union people involved in it and see if we can't come up with a system that we think

901
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:50,080
 is going to be effective and fair to not only the complainant but the officer I just I just

902
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:57,200
 am wondering how is the committee us can talk about the balance between community members

903
01:25:57,200 --> 01:26:04,460
 having buy-in and feeling safe to participate in this structure as well as having police

904
01:26:04,460 --> 01:26:11,560
 DPD buy-in and trust around the community oversight board to support the community members

905
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:16,600
 I'm just wondering what is the balance there and I know you don't have the answer I'm just

906
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:29,080
 posing that as a question to our group okay Jamie I'm I'm gonna share an observation first

907
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:34,440
 at least to make sure that I'm on maybe the a page that makes some sense and I'm gonna

908
01:26:34,440 --> 01:26:40,820
 try to reframe what I think cameo's question is in my own way because I feel like I'm struggling

909
01:26:40,820 --> 01:26:48,740
 similarly so let me start with my observation my observation is we have some members of

910
01:26:48,740 --> 01:26:56,680
 our community that are apprehensive and distrustful that our law enforcement community treats them

911
01:26:56,680 --> 01:27:03,400
 with equity right so that's one side and that do not feel comfortable using the processes

912
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:11,680
 that are already in place to share their feedback or concerns or whatnot you know either they're

913
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:18,160
 not taking advantage of the filing report or they they aren't doing that they're going

914
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:23,800
 to their trusted already community units maybe and talking about it and it doesn't get elevated

915
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:31,080
 to the department necessarily where something can be done that's potentially one observation

916
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:40,680
 on the other hand you have law enforcement community who rightfully so in my personal

917
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:47,600
 opinion believe what is Jamie Blanton know about being a good police officer other than

918
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:53,080
 what she's learned in these few hours of meeting together she's not done everything that I've

919
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:58,960
 done she doesn't understand how difficult it is to be on calls like that and like what

920
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:07,200
 the hell does she know right so you have you have that sort of idea as well what I am trying

921
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:14,480
 to understand is in a quantifiable way what's the cost benefit analysis for me as a member

922
01:28:14,480 --> 01:28:20,280
 of this group of making that recommendation to have an oversight committee or not and

923
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:26,480
 so while I understand there's not a dollar amount attached to the committee in the same

924
01:28:26,480 --> 01:28:31,480
 way there is a monitor like I like the monitor idea because I can attach a dollar amount

925
01:28:31,480 --> 01:28:37,760
 to that and then I can determine if that dollar amount is worth it based on the number of

926
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:43,160
 complaints they see like that makes sense to me because I like to think linear linearly

927
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:50,480
 in that way so what I'm struggling with is with an oversight board that is voluntary

928
01:28:50,480 --> 01:29:00,320
 that comes from all backgrounds who has no real authority is creating that entity or

929
01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:08,240
 recommending that we create that entity going to end up costing our community more money

930
01:29:08,240 --> 01:29:15,760
 time energy resources than it's going to save and so I understand that you can't paint me

931
01:29:15,760 --> 01:29:21,280
 a financial picture in the same clear way but to me that's what I'm I'm looking at

932
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:27,200
 so to come back to what camion was asking for me what I heard her trying to ask in my

933
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:41,720
 own way was is there any way to show how many times in these cities the board has been like

934
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:48,680
 what's the word I'm looking for like push down or sued or where there's been like financial

935
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:57,360
 implications to having the board in place any like general umbrella statement at all

936
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:01,760
 I understand that you would have to probably call each of those cities back and get some

937
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:08,360
 specific information I'm just looking for like ballpark generalities because I feel

938
01:30:08,360 --> 01:30:14,400
 like as a community whether it's looking at the picture nationally or locally there is

939
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:21,080
 a sense that there's a cost potentially to not doing it but I don't know that I know

940
01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:27,600
 or understand what the cost would be to do it does that make sense at all and thank you

941
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:41,160
 for letting me sort of editorialize around to make my point I appreciate that that no

942
01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:46,360
 I think it's an interesting question I think what we're what we see at least in Texas with

943
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:54,560
 the 143 cities is there's a general fear from the officers that that the oversight boards

944
01:30:54,560 --> 01:31:03,040
 tend to be politicized which they get their back up even more you can you can follow the

945
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:08,240
 larger cities and the members of the citizen oversight boards these conversations have

946
01:31:08,240 --> 01:31:11,640
 been going on for years and years they've evolved to a certain place and they realize

947
01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:16,160
 they don't really have any authority and they get frustrated with that because they can't

948
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:22,000
 effectuate change without the associations the 143 stands in their way they don't have

949
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:29,400
 the ability to to see police records disciplinary records that becomes a big issue and you see

950
01:31:29,400 --> 01:31:36,000
 this general sense of frustration from from the process which you know and I think the

951
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:40,920
 I think the volume issue is is is something that Mike's brought up that's it's a real

952
01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:46,000
 variable here the monitors at least and I think I think the way to apply around that

953
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:51,360
 is some of the transparency initiatives that we've been talking about in terms of really

954
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:54,400
 what the community wants to know is are you taking these things seriously and what are

955
01:31:54,400 --> 01:32:00,560
 you doing about it and you know and so I think that's kind of where we're heading right now

956
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:05,280
 and the way to address this but just watching and reading the papers in these cities and

957
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:09,440
 watching the cases and watching the politics and watching how some of the city councils

958
01:32:09,440 --> 01:32:15,120
 also try to use the citizen oversight boards which does nothing but push the officers even

959
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:21,360
 further away it's their fear and it's and it's a justified fear based on what's been

960
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:27,720
 going on in some of these big cities so I think the I think getting into this sort of

961
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:32,560
 slowly making sure there's a lot of vetting of information that it's very transparent

962
01:32:32,560 --> 01:32:37,480
 and and you know one of the things I've talked to the chief about is just you know getting

963
01:32:37,480 --> 01:32:41,040
 out there at least on an annual basis with the report saying here's everything that happened

964
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:46,040
 last year here's a couple of cases here's to here's you know changes that we're making

965
01:32:46,040 --> 01:32:51,800
 to training whatever it could be as a result of you know some of the criticism some of

966
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:58,800
 the oversight some of the best practice analysis it's probably the place to start but our officers

967
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:03,760
 get to read the clipping services just like we do and that is probably as motivating a

968
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:08,000
 factor and you know and some of their fears are very warranted based on what's happening

969
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:16,520
 in Austin and San Antonio and Dallas and that is going to be a very real issue so I think

970
01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:27,560
 there's various ways to get there slowly without without completely polarizing the police association

971
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:31,880
 I don't think that they're looking to be polarized but I think there are ways of making incremental

972
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:36,680
 progress and and I think Michael's given you several options there that we can talk to

973
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:42,080
 them about but that's that's just sort of the environment we're in right now even this

974
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:46,400
 process we're having to explain it's it's everything that we're doing it's a major change

975
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:51,720
 for folks and you know having this discussion it's a big difference has never been done

976
01:33:51,720 --> 01:33:58,040
 it's a so everything that we're doing is is exponentially you know more than has been

977
01:33:58,040 --> 01:34:04,800
 done in the past with this level of transparency and so it's just a matter of what are those

978
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:11,320
 first few steps to be taken I didn't really just to follow up on what Todd said one of

979
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:15,480
 the other options and I mentioned it briefly though is the chief could form a committee

980
01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:22,880
 that meets let's say yearly does an audit of use of force complaints suspensions discipline

981
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:32,800
 but you know racial bias you know racial profiling and then the chief prepares a report and then

982
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:38,080
 does a public presentation to council once a year and that report is public so I mean

983
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:43,800
 that's another way of involving citizens in an audit yearly that the chief actually has

984
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:49,880
 to publicly present that to council it's just something else it's one of the options I put

985
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:55,400
 in that's like I mean number two but I just wanted to elaborate on that and the last thing

986
01:34:55,400 --> 01:35:01,560
 we want to do is we don't want you folks and a committee to do a lot of work and then we

987
01:35:01,560 --> 01:35:06,840
 get sued and we get an injunction and then we spend the next year or two in court and

988
01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:12,280
 oversight is dead and that's kind of what happened in Austin when we were when we didn't

989
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:18,480
 have a contract for a year we had the police monitor kept going but the citizen oversight

990
01:35:18,480 --> 01:35:24,520
 panel stopped for an entire year because we didn't think that they lawfully had access

991
01:35:24,520 --> 01:35:31,040
 to the confidential files until we got a new contract now Austin put in a new 10 member

992
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:37,240
 panel so I just would hate to to do all this work and then we get an injunction and and

993
01:35:37,240 --> 01:35:45,000
 we're basically stopped in our tracks well yeah just I just want to double check that

994
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:51,240
 I'm clear maybe going all the way back to Jesse's question about what these oversight

995
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:56,440
 committees really do and you said in essence they're making recommendations similar to

996
01:35:56,440 --> 01:36:02,320
 this committee even but all of these different groups when you even just named perhaps you

997
01:36:02,320 --> 01:36:07,560
 have a group with the chief that he meets with and they're looking at specific case

998
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:16,280
 you know excessive use of force those groups still they're not looking at the specific

999
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:20,680
 files right I'm trying to get in my mind like when even some of these lists that you've

1000
01:36:20,680 --> 01:36:28,520
 given us of I'm trying to remember maybe Galveston was one Houston you know they they

1001
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:33,800
 monitor types of cases reviewed excessive force discharge of firearms incidents resulting

1002
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:40,920
 in serious bodily is are they receiving something similar to what we've received in their review

1003
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:44,840
 because they're not looking at the individual cases right because they're not legally allowed

1004
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:52,160
 to do that based on 143 it depends on the process for an Austin for example the police

1005
01:36:52,160 --> 01:36:59,080
 monitor actually sits in on every interview of every witness every officer gets to see

1006
01:36:59,080 --> 01:37:06,800
 all the evidence so it's really going to depend and I can't speak to the specifics of what

1007
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:12,720
 San Antonio Houston gets to see because I just don't know but every process is different

1008
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:22,200
 and if you were to put oversight into a contract of course that's a negotiation you can specify

1009
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:29,840
 those details what happens and everything but there is a question when you have volunteers

1010
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:36,680
 is that attorney general opinion noted it's questionable whether if it's an ongoing internal

1011
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:42,360
 affairs investigation which is confidential can those volunteers have real-time access

1012
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:47,520
 to that documentation and the attorney general didn't give a definitive answer it was just

1013
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:56,640
 kind of it depends on the details so I wish I could give you an absolute yes or no but

1014
01:37:56,640 --> 01:38:03,560
 unfortunately it's kind of one of those is really no definitive answer but you're saying

1015
01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:11,560
 in Austin they changed the contract because I'm because then Todd was saying of because

1016
01:38:11,560 --> 01:38:14,380
 they don't have any real authority and because maybe they don't have access then it turns

1017
01:38:14,380 --> 01:38:19,400
 in and spirals into this politicization thing but it sounds like maybe in Austin or at some

1018
01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:26,200
 places they do have more access so it is a little bit more of a significant recommendation

1019
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:31,240
 because they've maybe seen some things yes and that's because they've negotiated in their

1020
01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:41,080
 meeting confer agreement the access okay that's that's that's really kind of a key is if you

1021
01:38:41,080 --> 01:38:48,520
 can negotiate with your association and contract and put in the specifics of what the and I'll

1022
01:38:48,520 --> 01:38:56,560
 be happy to get get this group a copy of the article in the Austin police contract that

1023
01:38:56,560 --> 01:39:03,120
 talks about oversight and what the monitor and panel the responsibilities and what they

1024
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:12,040
 get to see and don't see that Austin is different Houston looks at San Antonio they all have

1025
01:39:12,040 --> 01:39:18,820
 contracts and in those contracts I don't remember if Houston does offhand but the contracts

1026
01:39:18,820 --> 01:39:24,560
 will specify the San Antonio contract for example they created this police advisory

1027
01:39:24,560 --> 01:39:30,240
 board in their contract so that's a way of getting around these restrictions to that

1028
01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:37,960
 g-file material is negotiating it with the Union but ultimately it still is like you

1029
01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:44,040
 said a recommendation more than anything else now if you want to negotiate something that

1030
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:49,680
 says these recommendations are binding on the chief and you know if the city wants to

1031
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:55,840
 negotiate that change you know a city can do that if they want to I don't know that

1032
01:39:55,840 --> 01:40:02,360
 I guess maybe it might be helpful for me to see because I think it's pretty clear with

1033
01:40:02,360 --> 01:40:06,960
 the monitor especially in the model that you gave us is the closer they are to the city

1034
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:11,360
 manager or the chief obviously the more legal access they have but then the further you

1035
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:15,520
 get and you get into these committee you know and you gave us all these different models

1036
01:40:15,520 --> 01:40:25,200
 in these different cities you know you don't want it to spin out of control because it's

1037
01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:29,340
 powerless and it can't really even know what's going on because you can't I mean it feels

1038
01:40:29,340 --> 01:40:34,640
 like that would be futility but it seems like maybe there are some groups that do have a

1039
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:38,200
 little bit more access for one reason or another it might just be good to see the comparison

1040
01:40:38,200 --> 01:40:45,200
 of those so we even know what are we talking about you know yeah I'll tell you in Austin

1041
01:40:45,200 --> 01:40:52,120
 the police monitor and the panel can make recommendations to the police chief the police

1042
01:40:52,120 --> 01:40:58,400
 chief then has to respond in writing and I believe the current contract and past couple

1043
01:40:58,400 --> 01:41:04,840
 ones makes those recommendations public so if the committee recommends something let's

1044
01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:09,880
 say in training and the chief decides not to do it then he has to justify in writing

1045
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:14,800
 why he's rejecting that argument that's going to be made public so that by itself is going

1046
01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:20,440
 to put some pressure on the chief to institute some of these changes so but again the group

1047
01:41:20,440 --> 01:41:26,640
 in Austin is making those recommendations to the chief based on a certain level of access

1048
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:31,440
 that may be different with Alveston you're absolutely right get at is just which cities

1049
01:41:31,440 --> 01:41:38,000
 have what access and how does that inform whether it becomes what Todd was talking about

1050
01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:43,000
 or something maybe a little bit more fruitful in regards to collaboration between the department

1051
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:47,400
 and the community where everybody feels safe and accountable and all those sorts of things

1052
01:41:47,400 --> 01:41:51,760
 for most of the cities that I'm talking about it's been negotiated access has been negotiated

1053
01:41:51,760 --> 01:42:00,560
 in their meet and confer agreements and I think the thing that's important to Michael

1054
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:06,440
 can provide these provisions to you but each one of those cities gave you know gave something

1055
01:42:06,440 --> 01:42:13,600
 up to get that and you know with with San Antonio for instance there's there's very

1056
01:42:13,600 --> 01:42:18,240
 different benefit packages very different things that were so you just never know what

1057
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:23,720
 what the trades were and I guess we could try our best to do that but even in those

1058
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:28,640
 cities where you've seen you know the the access being granted to some extent with the

1059
01:42:28,640 --> 01:42:34,080
 panels they're simply recommending bodies which tends to be frustrated they still are

1060
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:39,400
 subject to huge politicization I mean we're seeing that in Austin over and over again

1061
01:42:39,400 --> 01:42:44,460
 especially when they get sidelined over a meet and confer contract so it's it's one

1062
01:42:44,460 --> 01:42:48,280
 of those things where you know every situation is going to be a little bit differently and

1063
01:42:48,280 --> 01:42:54,000
 how it how it works if it can work and then once you don't have the contract they're

1064
01:42:54,000 --> 01:43:00,240
 put on pause so it it's not going to be clean we can certainly provide the language but

1065
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:04,840
 there's going to be a backstory to every one of these that has to be taken into consideration

1066
01:43:04,840 --> 01:43:10,360
 and it's going to be a lot of time as well to get to a point where you can have those

1067
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:23,320
 conversations little in hi and I just wanted to share just a couple of thoughts I completely

1068
01:43:23,320 --> 01:43:27,600
 understand what you guys are saying and as a member of the civil service commission I

1069
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:33,080
 totally understand as well that it is frustrating and what the limitations are and how hard

1070
01:43:33,080 --> 01:43:38,160
 it is sometimes to even understand the role what we're we're tasked to do but I think

1071
01:43:38,160 --> 01:43:43,240
 as I've said listened to the presentation as I've heard you know all these different

1072
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:49,600
 groups and what they have and it's clear to me that the chief has representation because

1073
01:43:49,600 --> 01:43:55,440
 it's the city attorney the officers have representation because those are the unions the only ones

1074
01:43:55,440 --> 01:44:00,440
 that I don't see have total representation or even a voice to voice frustrations or whatever

1075
01:44:00,440 --> 01:44:04,880
 they might feel are the residents and I think that that's from the moment that we started

1076
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:09,560
 talking about oversight committees from weeks and weeks ago that's what was missing that's

1077
01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:14,000
 why we wanted to bring that up you know we wanted to at least feel that we have a voice

1078
01:44:14,000 --> 01:44:21,200
 now if a group of panelists formed in whatever capacity if it even is just to review certain

1079
01:44:21,200 --> 01:44:25,680
 cases with the chief wants or whatever at least there's a voice at least we can provide

1080
01:44:25,680 --> 01:44:32,480
 a recommendation but I think that the way things are right now that's that's the part

1081
01:44:32,480 --> 01:44:38,400
 that's missing I also was listening when someone said you know well who would appoint and the

1082
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:43,760
 city manager would appoint I know that in the past or the way it's done now a council

1083
01:44:43,760 --> 01:44:47,680
 member might recommend a person to the city manager and then the city manager decides

1084
01:44:47,680 --> 01:44:53,200
 you know to be a point or not does the person want to do it you know do they meet minimum

1085
01:44:53,200 --> 01:45:00,320
 requirements and that's how they get appointed I don't see why that would be any different

1086
01:45:00,320 --> 01:45:04,580
 I don't I don't see why that would be or have to be any different for this specific committee

1087
01:45:04,580 --> 01:45:11,280
 now the recommendations that are done by this committee right and I understand the whole

1088
01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:16,680
 thing that the city manager is the chief's boss and to my understanding the way I understand

1089
01:45:16,680 --> 01:45:21,480
 government and the city council has the right to fire a city manager so in my opinion the

1090
01:45:21,480 --> 01:45:26,760
 city council is also supposed to be tasked or it's a it's a system of checks and balances

1091
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:32,960
 right with what the city manager is doing so if at any moment um you know y'all mentioned

1092
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:38,320
 under certain laws the city manager has the right to these personnel files the HR department

1093
01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:42,840
 has a right to the personnel files I don't see why the city council wouldn't I don't

1094
01:45:42,840 --> 01:45:46,720
 understand the whole thing about the attorney general I don't know if you know Mr. Cronin

1095
01:45:46,720 --> 01:45:52,040
 can say whether it's a definite no it's a hard no or it could be possible but why wouldn't

1096
01:45:52,040 --> 01:45:55,840
 we that would be another way to say well we do have representations because we're the

1097
01:45:55,840 --> 01:46:00,440
 ones that vote in our city council members so why wouldn't they have as much access as

1098
01:46:00,440 --> 01:46:05,520
 a city manager I'm also not in favor of a monitor I think that's just another person

1099
01:46:05,520 --> 01:46:12,280
 on payroll and honestly it's not to speak speak ill of anyone but it's just one more

1100
01:46:12,280 --> 01:46:19,680
 person on that on that same in that same structure and it's missing the citizen input right

1101
01:46:19,680 --> 01:46:25,360
 so those are just some thoughts I'm curious what other people might think and you know

1102
01:46:25,360 --> 01:46:30,480
 what's going on in everyone's mind right now in regards to that I do think the city council

1103
01:46:30,480 --> 01:46:36,960
 could appoint or make recommendations to the city manager and I think the most defensible

1104
01:46:36,960 --> 01:46:41,600
 way I don't know how the current ones are doing if the manager uh then picks from the

1105
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:47,080
 recommendations but I certainly think council can have input into who's going to be on this

1106
01:46:47,080 --> 01:46:55,040
 panel uh the council as a body also has access to these confidential g-file materials because

1107
01:46:55,040 --> 01:47:00,280
 they're the governing body they set the uh budget for uh for the city and the departments

1108
01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:07,080
 and so as a body they do and they can under the ag opinion they can decide who else within

1109
01:47:07,080 --> 01:47:14,120
 the city government has a basically a business need to see those uh but again as you start

1110
01:47:14,120 --> 01:47:19,680
 getting into volunteers who aren't even city employees that's where the it becomes kind

1111
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:26,520
 of hairy so I understand and I do I do think there's a way to do what you're saying part

1112
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:32,000
 of what in Austin when someone comes in to file a complaint the monitor I don't I don't

1113
01:47:32,000 --> 01:47:37,320
 know if the word ombudsman is certainly the right word uh but they help them through the

1114
01:47:37,320 --> 01:47:43,240
 process tell them what's going to happen uh kind of give them feedback so I understand

1115
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:47,880
 what you're saying that when someone comes in there's no one on their side there's just

1116
01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:52,440
 a citizen who doesn't understand what's going to happen and that may be something we can

1117
01:47:52,440 --> 01:47:58,720
 talk about of trying to develop some kind of a budsman uh position a person to help

1118
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:10,400
 people who are filing complaints so they don't feel like they're alone

1119
01:48:10,400 --> 01:48:15,320
 Gary did you have your hand up yes madam thank you uh I'm gonna put you on the spot

1120
01:48:15,320 --> 01:48:20,160
 Michael you've given us several options I think you've heard the committee over a number

1121
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:26,440
 of weeks um you know the two associations very well you understand the limitations so

1122
01:48:26,440 --> 01:48:32,640
 what is the best solution in your opinion for what we're trying to achieve in denton

1123
01:48:32,640 --> 01:48:38,440
 I don't know the associations for uh the chief knows them better than I do I've had very

1124
01:48:38,440 --> 01:48:44,960
 few dealings with them the most legally defensible one is to have a police monitor who is an

1125
01:48:44,960 --> 01:48:51,200
 employee uh that reports to the city manager uh is appointed by the city manager can be

1126
01:48:51,200 --> 01:48:57,800
 removed by the city manager uh I think that's the most legally defensible one uh and if

1127
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:05,040
 you want to get a citizen panel my suggestion would be try to negotiate that through a meeting

1128
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:10,600
 confer agreement uh I think that's probably the most legally defensible way to get a citizen

1129
01:49:10,600 --> 01:49:17,320
 panel in place that's just my based on my experience I just want to say thank you for

1130
01:49:17,320 --> 01:49:23,320
 all the research you've done you've provided a wealth of information you're welcome Jesse

1131
01:49:23,320 --> 01:49:30,840
 yeah two things really quickly first I kind of want to um clarify and qualify something

1132
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:36,200
 uh Mike said a second ago about the the g file section g files the city council members

1133
01:49:36,200 --> 01:49:42,160
 don't have access to those individually we in our official capacities as a body you know

1134
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:46,840
 the council can vote itself power to take a look at those files that's not something

1135
01:49:46,840 --> 01:49:51,640
 the city council can do now or that we could individually reach into those files or get

1136
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:56,320
 permission to see those files individually uh without a pretty good reason acting as

1137
01:49:56,320 --> 01:50:02,680
 a body um the second thing Mike I wonder if you might say a word about open meetings and

1138
01:50:02,680 --> 01:50:08,880
 some of those groups on your list have open public meetings some of them don't and Denton

1139
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:14,680
 almost every single board uh border commission that we have is subject to toma and uh Texas

1140
01:50:14,680 --> 01:50:19,080
 open meetings um we broadcast some of them over the internet just like we're doing this

1141
01:50:19,080 --> 01:50:27,000
 one can you say a word about um those groups that do and don't have public meetings anything

1142
01:50:27,000 --> 01:50:33,040
 you know about the reasons behind those that don't have public meetings um and what kind

1143
01:50:33,040 --> 01:50:39,120
 of implications that might have um I could think of some exceptions to toma for a group

1144
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:45,920
 like that but what are some of the implications to having those meetings be public when we

1145
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:49,400
 were drafting the language in Austin because and I keep going back to that because that's

1146
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:54,120
 what I'm familiar with we talked about having a public hearing where the public could come

1147
01:50:54,120 --> 01:50:59,960
 in and hear their grievances part of the problem was that a lot of the things those panel uh

1148
01:50:59,960 --> 01:51:05,440
 those citizens want to talk about is confidential investigations that didn't result in discipline

1149
01:51:05,440 --> 01:51:11,560
 they're upset that nothing was sustained and the officer wasn't suspended so we were concerned

1150
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:18,760
 that the panel members can they ask questions about a confidential matter are they going

1151
01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:24,480
 to be in a public forum discussing confidential information that they shouldn't be so that

1152
01:51:24,480 --> 01:51:29,280
 that was really the police association's concern is what's going to happen at these meetings

1153
01:51:29,280 --> 01:51:34,760
 are we going to have a citizen panel who just sits there like potted plants and listens

1154
01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:41,040
 and can't ask a single question and that is the way it originally started uh citizen comes

1155
01:51:41,040 --> 01:51:46,560
 in and complains and the committee members go and ask him any questions through the meet

1156
01:51:46,560 --> 01:51:55,200
 and confer contract over the year that's become more and more uh liberal so to speak uh where

1157
01:51:55,200 --> 01:52:02,520
 a lot more can be said but uh I tell you officers are not going to get up in a public meeting

1158
01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:11,560
 and defend themselves uh I can't think of any I was not the attorney for the uh oversight

1159
01:52:11,560 --> 01:52:15,640
 process in Austin because I was attorney for the police department's kind of a conflict

1160
01:52:15,640 --> 01:52:22,240
 there but you could probably count in 20 years on one hand how many police officers who were

1161
01:52:22,240 --> 01:52:28,000
 the subject of an investigation actually went and spoke to that committee especially if

1162
01:52:28,000 --> 01:52:33,920
 the person that complained against them was there as well so there are there are issues

1163
01:52:33,920 --> 01:52:40,700
 with what can be discussed uh and is it really nothing more the officers I think consider

1164
01:52:40,700 --> 01:52:46,240
 to be nothing more than a public uh I don't want to word the word lynching is not the

1165
01:52:46,240 --> 01:52:52,440
 right word obviously that has negative connotations but they feel like they're getting hammered

1166
01:52:52,440 --> 01:52:58,360
 in a public forum by someone coming in and saying how horrible they are and they're reluctant

1167
01:52:58,360 --> 01:53:03,440
 to get up there and defend themselves so there are issues with the public meetings and what

1168
01:53:03,440 --> 01:53:10,280
 can be discussed and confidential information some of these like you said processes do have

1169
01:53:10,280 --> 01:53:17,380
 public meetings I think Dallas does but it just again it just varies from from city to

1170
01:53:17,380 --> 01:53:22,040
 city about what their process is and what's going to take place at these meetings I wish

1171
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:26,880
 I could give you more definitive but there there are legal concerns about what's going

1172
01:53:26,880 --> 01:53:28,840
 to take place at the at a public meeting

1173
01:53:28,840 --> 01:53:37,000
 Katina

1174
01:53:37,000 --> 01:53:43,480
 so I'm I'm still stuck on um what police officers would feel would be equitable in order for

1175
01:53:43,480 --> 01:53:50,960
 us to have an oversight committee I'd like to hear from um the officers um that are on

1176
01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:57,840
 the zoom call as well as Dr Williams because you all represent the department and work

1177
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:04,200
 with officers so I'd like to hear what you think is fair and what would work for the

1178
01:54:04,200 --> 01:54:11,360
 citizens and the officers

1179
01:54:11,360 --> 01:54:19,280
 I can from my point of view um and it's it's why I asked the question earlier about what

1180
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:24,000
 uh what the members on the committee what is their background and what is their you

1181
01:54:24,000 --> 01:54:29,280
 know what experience do they have uh in my opinion in order for something like that to

1182
01:54:29,280 --> 01:54:36,120
 work I think you would have to have someone who not necessarily police officers but someone

1183
01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:43,680
 who knows the the field knows the profession um I I had a conversation with someone a while

1184
01:54:43,680 --> 01:54:51,400
 back after one of these meetings and my example is that I don't think I'm qualified to sit

1185
01:54:51,400 --> 01:54:57,680
 on the medical board and determine if a medical professional is doing their job appropriately

1186
01:54:57,680 --> 01:55:05,160
 or you know correctly so I feel like someone would have to have some kind of working knowledge

1187
01:55:05,160 --> 01:55:11,000
 in a profession to be able to pass judgment on someone's profession you know I don't think

1188
01:55:11,000 --> 01:55:16,680
 I can speak to anyone else on the zoom call as far as if you're performing appropriately

1189
01:55:16,680 --> 01:55:21,520
 in your profession without me having some kind of previous knowledge or some kind of

1190
01:55:21,520 --> 01:55:34,160
 uh you know education in your profession so that's just my my take on it

1191
01:55:34,160 --> 01:55:42,360
 I'll tell you my take on it okay go ahead Nancy oh I'm sorry uh my take on it is a couple

1192
01:55:42,360 --> 01:55:48,840
 of a couple things one uh and I'm only speaking for me I'm not speaking for on behalf of all

1193
01:55:48,840 --> 01:55:54,200
 the officers of the association I'm speaking for myself uh you're gonna have to have somebody

1194
01:55:54,200 --> 01:56:00,420
 on the board that's fair uh fair is a big thing on being an officer we're always judged

1195
01:56:00,420 --> 01:56:07,080
 off of people biases or opinions so you also need to be impartial you know let all the

1196
01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:12,480
 facts present itself and then judge based off of the facts that present it not based

1197
01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:16,960
 off of your feelings or what you think your friends or family is going to say or how other

1198
01:56:16,960 --> 01:56:22,440
 community members is going to look out to you and uh I'll tell you one last thing Mike

1199
01:56:22,440 --> 01:56:27,440
 hit on it a couple of times is going to be the confidentiality a lot of times when you're

1200
01:56:27,440 --> 01:56:32,640
 going to be going into uh if you get a oversight board or whatever you're going to have you're

1201
01:56:32,640 --> 01:56:37,000
 going to receive confidential information or you're going to see some confidential information

1202
01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:45,360
 not only just of the officer but uh of the citizen themselves so if you are on the board

1203
01:56:45,360 --> 01:56:51,840
 or whatever how as an officer how do I know that you're going to keep that information

1204
01:56:51,840 --> 01:56:57,200
 just between you and the panel that's on the board and not go spread that out throughout

1205
01:56:57,200 --> 01:57:03,080
 the community because it's not just the officer on trial here or you know being judged here

1206
01:57:03,080 --> 01:57:07,680
 about a panel it's also the citizen that the officer that actually filed a complaint or

1207
01:57:07,680 --> 01:57:15,000
 the grievance against the officer uh so fair and impartial as well as the confidentiality

1208
01:57:15,000 --> 01:57:25,200
 that's going to be some of the big things that's especially in my boat Lillian I completely

1209
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:31,920
 agree with um BNC I I would hope that the people on the school board the board of trustees

1210
01:57:31,920 --> 01:57:36,320
 members are fair and impartial and looking for the best education for all kids right

1211
01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:41,680
 I would hope that city council members are the same way um in response to officer um

1212
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:48,360
 Nicholas um I I you know when when a city when a person runs for city council they're

1213
01:57:48,360 --> 01:57:52,920
 not experts in everything but they're tasked with making decisions that involves millions

1214
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:57,680
 of dollars you know what I mean not all of them have the background that they might need

1215
01:57:57,680 --> 01:58:02,040
 so they have staff that provides the information I believe that they are probably responsible

1216
01:58:02,040 --> 01:58:07,640
 do their own research same with uh United States board of trustees they're not all former

1217
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:14,240
 educators and so I don't believe that a person that is doesn't have a background in uh policing

1218
01:58:14,240 --> 01:58:20,160
 can't be a person on this on this panel um but I I do completely agree Yancy that they

1219
01:58:20,160 --> 01:58:26,120
 have to be impartial they have to um they have to have a willingness to to stand for

1220
01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:31,480
 the people and also uh and for the community and and officers are part of that community

1221
01:58:31,480 --> 01:58:35,520
 as well and so I just want to put that out there because I don't think it's fair for

1222
01:58:35,520 --> 01:58:40,120
 anyone to say no they can't do it when all of our representation look at our council

1223
01:58:40,120 --> 01:58:45,320
 our council members look at our Texas state reps none of them we have people running for

1224
01:58:45,320 --> 01:58:50,800
 you know other elected positions that have no kind of background are hair salon stylist

1225
01:58:50,800 --> 01:58:55,680
 owners you know and they're still running and so that doesn't disqualify anyone I believe

1226
01:58:55,680 --> 01:59:00,000
 one of the requirements to serve on the board we could put in that you have to undergo certain

1227
01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:08,160
 training by the department so we could put that in yeah just real quick um since you

1228
01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:15,000
 you were answering my questions um initially if they're regarding confidentiality if for

1229
01:59:15,000 --> 01:59:20,280
 the board um the oversight committee committee I'm sorry I'm so tongue-tied I'm not feeling

1230
01:59:20,280 --> 01:59:31,480
 well today I'm sorry um if there was a confidentiality agreement that any um disposing like disclosed

1231
01:59:31,480 --> 01:59:39,480
 disclosing of information would result in maybe a penalty of of forfeiture of the of

1232
01:59:39,480 --> 01:59:47,560
 the case or something like that could that leverage um you know the confidentiality and

1233
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:52,200
 hold the person responsible knowing that if it's found out that you know you've discussed

1234
01:59:52,200 --> 01:59:58,920
 this case or you know disclosed any information that basically you're going to forfeit your

1235
01:59:58,920 --> 02:00:06,040
 position and and potentially the case could be thrown out would that be fair yeah we could

1236
02:00:06,040 --> 02:00:11,640
 do that and there's even state laws that might even deal make it criminal that if you disclose

1237
02:00:11,640 --> 02:00:16,640
 confidential information that you've come into because of your position potentially

1238
02:00:16,640 --> 02:00:27,800
 could be a crime I mean the way you get around a lot of this stuff is if the city and the

1239
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:32,520
 union wanted to is you just put it in a contract and try to negotiate all of these issues so

1240
02:00:32,520 --> 02:00:39,240
 that we're all on the same page and we don't have to worry about them yeah my my my concern

1241
02:00:39,240 --> 02:00:44,320
 is that you know a lot of the things that I'm hearing from the officers would be the

1242
02:00:44,320 --> 02:00:48,960
 same things I would hear from people in the community and historically um that has been

1243
02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:55,960
 the experience of the community um no lack of representation um which I completely understand

1244
02:00:55,960 --> 02:01:00,920
 on the officer end you don't want to witch hunt um and I I personally wouldn't I mean

1245
02:01:00,920 --> 02:01:07,680
 I wouldn't want to witch hunt but everything that you're that I've heard so far in defense

1246
02:01:07,680 --> 02:01:14,480
 of you know protecting the officers I've heard you know and felt on the citizen side of protection

1247
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:22,600
 representation um people doing their jobs um relying on the training and expertise versus

1248
02:01:22,600 --> 02:01:31,720
 you know winging it or you know having bias or abuse of power um so I feel like if we

1249
02:01:31,720 --> 02:01:39,560
 can come to some type of agreement that leverages you know for both sides um and gives opportunity

1250
02:01:39,560 --> 02:01:49,360
 for citizens to have a process of complaint that doesn't just stop at police but is um

1251
02:01:49,360 --> 02:01:55,320
 you know given over to the citizens to to the community but then at the same time knowing

1252
02:01:55,320 --> 02:02:01,600
 that there's going to be a high standard in ensuring that um there's not a witch hunt

1253
02:02:01,600 --> 02:02:11,920
 that is fair and equitable for officers and citizens jami I just um we had offered dr

1254
02:02:11,920 --> 02:02:16,800
 williams the chance to respond to the same question and I think our our group kind of

1255
02:02:16,800 --> 02:02:20,920
 jumped jumped in with questions and stuff so I just wanted to offer him if if you are

1256
02:02:20,920 --> 02:02:32,320
 interested in sharing your perspective I'd like to hear it dr williams hey good evening

1257
02:02:32,320 --> 02:02:40,200
 so I can't I can't speak to the concerns of the associations or the officers uh concerning

1258
02:02:40,200 --> 02:02:53,560
 any any reservations that they might have that's not something that I can speak to okay

1259
02:02:53,560 --> 02:03:03,960
 thank you um don't forget that all these ideas we're going to meet next week and we're going

1260
02:03:03,960 --> 02:03:10,760
 to put all of these into the top you know whatever top 10 top whatever um so we can

1261
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:16,360
 start getting the recommendation together to go to council sarah you want to jump in

1262
02:03:16,360 --> 02:03:24,920
 on that one sure so patrick the facilitator from last week has taken the conversation

1263
02:03:24,920 --> 02:03:31,720
 the ideas some of the main themes and is developing a list we will send that in advance of next

1264
02:03:31,720 --> 02:03:36,760
 thursday's meeting to the committee um to kind of get you prepared for that next conversation

1265
02:03:36,760 --> 02:03:43,000
 on the 17th around um regarding to start to vote or have discussions around which recommendations

1266
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:47,640
 the committee wants to put forward and in what priority um those recommendations may

1267
02:03:47,640 --> 02:03:59,600
 be made yes jamie so I may be the only one that's not able to attend next week's meeting

1268
02:03:59,600 --> 02:04:04,420
 um but just as a point of order since we are going to start voting and discussing those

1269
02:04:04,420 --> 02:04:09,920
 initiatives would preference be sarah for us to share our comments back via email so

1270
02:04:09,920 --> 02:04:14,560
 you can share them with the group or to wait until the following meeting or how would you

1271
02:04:14,560 --> 02:04:21,880
 like to handle that sure if you're unable to attend if you could email both chair english

1272
02:04:21,880 --> 02:04:25,960
 and myself we can share those thoughts with the committee members and then there would

1273
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:38,280
 be the opportunity as well on the september 24th meeting yes both i've got another question

1274
02:04:38,280 --> 02:04:42,480
 about this i wanted to circle back to mr croney to give this isn't the time to do it that's

1275
02:04:42,480 --> 02:04:49,960
 okay i just i'll do you and then camion and then then that'll that'll be it yeah i just

1276
02:04:49,960 --> 02:04:54,360
 wanted to tie it off as i start thinking about even recommendations and thoughts convictions

1277
02:04:54,360 --> 02:05:03,560
 whatever from tonight mr krone you said okay gary asked you what's your legal and otherwise

1278
02:05:03,560 --> 02:05:08,280
 your perspective on what we should do you mentioned the the monitor is the most legally

1279
02:05:08,280 --> 02:05:13,040
 justifiable then you started to go down the road of you know some of these cities have

1280
02:05:13,040 --> 02:05:17,520
 both that and we discussed that a little bit whether it was worth having one in our city

1281
02:05:17,520 --> 02:05:20,880
 and then you went to the oversight board as well the potential of that and then we got

1282
02:05:20,880 --> 02:05:29,280
 lost into some weeds of it in all the models of the oversight board that you've portrayed

1283
02:05:29,280 --> 02:05:35,120
 that you've seen that you've thought about if if we were going to make a recommendation

1284
02:05:35,120 --> 02:05:39,560
 in that direction which one of those would you recommend the one that is connected to

1285
02:05:39,560 --> 02:05:46,720
 the chief the one that's connected to the city manager is there a particular form that

1286
02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:53,480
 you'd lean toward in that recommendation if we were going to make it i think from a practical

1287
02:05:53,480 --> 02:06:00,400
 standpoint if you want independence i think something that reports to the chief just isn't

1288
02:06:00,400 --> 02:06:07,880
 practical i think you want to go to the chief's boss and i think if you have a monitor that

1289
02:06:07,880 --> 02:06:13,560
 reports directly to the chief who's the supervisor to the city manager who's the supervisor of

1290
02:06:13,560 --> 02:06:19,760
 the chief i think you're going to get a lot more in my experience this the police monitor

1291
02:06:19,760 --> 02:06:24,800
 in austin reports to the city manager and i tell you when she calls him and says hey

1292
02:06:24,800 --> 02:06:30,080
 i got a problem with this uh the chief in austin gets a phone call usually from the

1293
02:06:30,080 --> 02:06:35,000
 assistant city manager about what's going on you know with this uh so i think that's

1294
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:45,640
 probably the most effective oversight process is a monitor that is responsible to the chief

1295
02:06:45,640 --> 02:06:53,080
 i can tell you there's there's a feeling that sometimes oversight is

1296
02:06:53,080 --> 02:06:58,420
 if all they can do is make recommendations is it even any good is it a waste of everybody's

1297
02:06:58,420 --> 02:07:04,880
 time if the chief can simply say yeah thanks but no thanks so you know you can try to build

1298
02:07:04,880 --> 02:07:11,480
 in a process that has some some teeth but i would go with a police monitor i think a

1299
02:07:11,480 --> 02:07:17,600
 citizen panel if we can do it is important because then you actually have the citizens

1300
02:07:17,600 --> 02:07:22,640
 who are giving input and not just someone who's a paid employee of this of the city

1301
02:07:22,640 --> 02:07:25,720
 and i think that's real important that the citizens feel like they're actually having

1302
02:07:25,720 --> 02:07:31,880
 some stake in what's happening and making recommendations and making the chief answer

1303
02:07:31,880 --> 02:07:38,320
 to those recommendations why aren't you going to do this recommendation and making that

1304
02:07:38,320 --> 02:07:45,080
 public and make the chief report to council every year i think that's an incentive for

1305
02:07:45,080 --> 02:07:51,080
 the chief to to uh take these recommendations to heart but you're saying that citizen committee

1306
02:07:51,080 --> 02:07:55,720
 that was maybe the heart of my question you think that citizen committee should report

1307
02:07:55,720 --> 02:08:00,880
 or work directly with the chief or with the city manager i think the most defensible process

1308
02:08:00,880 --> 02:08:09,600
 is uh with if you made it part of the police department that citizen panel is part of the

1309
02:08:09,600 --> 02:08:14,440
 police department reports to the chief that's probably the most defensible because now it's

1310
02:08:14,440 --> 02:08:19,640
 part of the police department but i don't think that's practical you know i mean i don't

1311
02:08:19,640 --> 02:08:23,520
 think anyone on this committee thinks that a panel should report to the chief when their

1312
02:08:23,520 --> 02:08:32,480
 job is to oversee the chief i think i think it should report to the city manager thank

1313
02:08:32,480 --> 02:08:44,080
 you camion i just wanted to thank you um mr kronig for that information you just shared

1314
02:08:44,080 --> 02:08:49,480
 about uh community input as well as say that i do agree with yancey around people being

1315
02:08:49,480 --> 02:08:55,880
 impartial and um keeping things confidential if necessary especially to support community

1316
02:08:55,880 --> 02:09:03,200
 members as well as the police force i know that um last time i think it was yancey asked

1317
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:09,080
 a question around what can community members do to actually help bridge the gap between

1318
02:09:09,080 --> 02:09:17,480
 police and the community and from the goals of a community civilian oversight board one

1319
02:09:17,480 --> 02:09:23,480
 of the number three goals is to improve public confidence in the police and i think a number

1320
02:09:23,480 --> 02:09:28,800
 of things that we've heard from den pd have been around there there's low complaints we

1321
02:09:28,800 --> 02:09:36,320
 heard that today there's fewer complaints um i think that if we had one it would increase

1322
02:09:36,320 --> 02:09:40,960
 support from the community and help bridge that gap whether we have law enforcement a

1323
02:09:40,960 --> 02:09:45,440
 part of the committee or not i don't think we've decided on that um but i just wanted

1324
02:09:45,440 --> 02:09:50,240
 to say i see this community oversight board as a way to bridge the gap between community

1325
02:09:50,240 --> 02:09:56,320
 members and police and i wondered if folks who are part of law enforcement or maybe just

1326
02:09:56,320 --> 02:10:01,840
 the chief saw or has any input around what jamie asked earlier around what would be the

1327
02:10:01,840 --> 02:10:07,960
 implications of not doing something like a civilian oversight board to help bridge the

1328
02:10:07,960 --> 02:10:16,760
 gap between community and the dpd like what do you i guess do you see an impact in not

1329
02:10:16,760 --> 02:10:28,520
 doing this that would harm further harm relations with the community

1330
02:10:28,520 --> 02:10:33,520
 we have a training advisory board that we meet with and talk with already we go in front

1331
02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:36,680
 of this i go in front of the civil service commission whenever they have questions about

1332
02:10:36,680 --> 02:10:42,880
 processes with civil service and i already present at least i can't count how many times

1333
02:10:42,880 --> 02:10:48,920
 i present presented the council in the last year on a myriad of different subject matters

1334
02:10:48,920 --> 02:10:55,960
 we produce an annual report annual use of force report um annual racial profiling report

1335
02:10:55,960 --> 02:11:01,800
 and they're all on the open data page right now as we speak so you know all those reports

1336
02:11:01,800 --> 02:11:10,120
 are out there and presenting them to council isn't going to be any more work because we

1337
02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:17,280
 do it already so like i said before my only concern is if you get a full-time monitor

1338
02:11:17,280 --> 02:11:23,840
 that doesn't have the workload for a full-time monitor what are they going to be doing and

1339
02:11:23,840 --> 02:11:30,520
 is that the most cost efficient for the citizens of denton to be paying for that in lieu of

1340
02:11:30,520 --> 02:11:37,600
 having someone that is on retainer or having a committee that i work with on an ongoing

1341
02:11:37,600 --> 02:11:43,600
 basis throughout the year jamie

1342
02:11:43,600 --> 02:11:53,560
 j-five a follow-up question do you feel like the citizen committees that you work with

1343
02:11:53,560 --> 02:12:01,520
 already are already doing enough work to help you build trust rapport and improve communication

1344
02:12:01,520 --> 02:12:07,280
 in the community do you feel like you have enough human beings doing that work with you

1345
02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:13,520
 that it or would it benefit you to have more in that army so to speak so i'll answer that

1346
02:12:13,520 --> 02:12:18,240
 by asking you a question how many people on this committee have reached out in your respective

1347
02:12:18,240 --> 02:12:25,800
 communities to help bridge the gap since you've been a part of this committee

1348
02:12:25,800 --> 02:12:30,720
 because that's what we're really missing is getting people to meet us and i could give

1349
02:12:30,720 --> 02:12:35,960
 you some examples of that but it's really going to take all of us working together and

1350
02:12:35,960 --> 02:12:41,440
 that part seems to get missed sometimes the police department can only do so much outreach

1351
02:12:41,440 --> 02:12:45,080
 we talked about that last week we can only hold so many events and show up different

1352
02:12:45,080 --> 02:12:50,440
 places we've got to have people want to come meet us you know meet me a quarter of the

1353
02:12:50,440 --> 02:12:56,640
 way not even halfway but give me a you know a show of goodwill so we can really make some

1354
02:12:56,640 --> 02:13:02,640
 good sustained change for everybody but yeah i think that we have more than enough people

1355
02:13:02,640 --> 02:13:08,480
 you look at all the leaders on this call right now in your respective communities we've got

1356
02:13:08,480 --> 02:13:13,640
 just a great city full of compassionate people it's just a matter of us working together

1357
02:13:13,640 --> 02:13:23,880
 towards the same goal

1358
02:13:23,880 --> 02:13:30,600
 all right well we're going to wrap it up for tonight and we'll be back here again next

1359
02:13:30,600 --> 02:13:39,120
 week and sarah you want to you got one more thing to say before we go no i do not okay

1360
02:13:39,120 --> 02:13:44,440
 the next meeting will be next thursday um september 17th at 6 pm and patrick will be

1361
02:13:44,440 --> 02:13:53,280
 back yes he will be all right good night everybody all right good night thank you