Aug 20, 2020 Use-Of-Force Ad Hoc Committee on 2020-08-20 6:00 PM

good evening i'm calling the meeting to order for the city of denton use of force ad hoc committee today is thursday august 20th it is six oh three and we will start with the first item on the agenda which is to consider the approval of use of force ad hoc committee meeting minutes for august 13th 2020 um if you've read over the minutes and you don't have any um any changes or any discussions i'll need a motion motion made ronda made the motion and is that a second pam second yes second and if all approved um you can just raise your hand and hold it up for a few minutes so we can get everybody john john baines are you approving the minutes okay all in favor say aye got your hand okay uh non-opposing motion carries the next item is item b is review and discuss following items from the previous committee meeting on august 13th lillian um this is if you want to we have a quorum so if you want to take this off you can thank you thank you so madam chair what time we're starting we just started six oh three chair english i can uh introduce the second item so this is a follow-up from the last meeting we included in your backup kind of a summary of all the questions that the committee had and some of the answers that staff provided we did have two questions where we noted that we needed to follow up with the committee the first question was question number six in your backup and that's in regards to the training that officers receive on disabilities including hearing impairments and visual impairments so deputy chief frank pageant is here to address that question and follow up from last meeting you're on mute yet deputy chief there we go is that better okay there's one in every meeting isn't there um yeah the question was whether officers receive training on disabilities excluding autism hearing impairments and visual impairments while some of that training is scattered throughout various courses there's a specific class the samuel allen law or senate bill 976 what took effect september 19th or i mean i'm sorry september 1st 2019 it created a tico course understanding communication impediments for law enforcement the course addresses the communication impediments that people with disabilities may have when they contact or are contacted by law enforcement and the course makes officers aware of those impediments you know those impediments say a lack of eye contact or a slow response to questions because someone is processing the answer or processing what the officer has told them those can be interpreted by officers as suspicious activity or avoidance so this course lets officers know there's other causes out there for these actions the individuals can also put communication impediment on the back of their driver's license so that when an officer has the license he can look at it she can look at it and see that the the person has this communication impediment they can also discreetly attach it to their vehicle registration so when they're pulled over say by an officer the officer pulls them over checks the tag when the tag return will return and tell the officer that the person may have trouble communicating so the officer can go and make the first contact and know that you know there's an issue here with communication and i need to be aware of that the disabilities that are included in this course include parkinson's disease mild intellectual disability speech and language disorders down syndrome and brain injury and it does include the autism spectrum disorders any questions for deputy chief pageant okay seeing none we'll go to the second follow-up item that we had and that was in regards to question 19 bo had asked about training gaps regarding use of force so dr williams is going to provide some more information in regards to that item good evening everyone it's good to be back with you again all right so i did some homework did ever can everybody see the screen and the last week i had a little trouble with my screen but everybody got it this time so good thank you so much i passed uh so just some follow-up regarding your question your question regarding what gaps were identified or in the use of force training and uh what i found was that the the response to resistance training the defensive tactics training it was inconsistent uh it was inconsistent because of different reasons staffing reasons uh some funding reasons but uh the department was taking actions to address those things and actions that were taken were that the training budget has been increased and to address the staffing issue the department selected and dedicated a full-time defensive tactics instructor to provide regular training to all sworn officers so that that erased that inconsistency so not as one officer that is his sole job is to provide responsive resistance defensive tactics training additional actions that that have been taken by the departments that all sworn personnel are currently now receiving and or scheduled to receive the following annual training they're receiving de-escalation training response to resistance defensive tactics training they're receiving scenario-based training to build on critical thinking skills they're receiving emergency vehicle operations training and they're receiving fair and impartial policing training the explicit and implicit bias training for all sworn not just the sworn personnel but also the non-sworn personnel as well all officers now have access to what we call open mat training to improve and maintain their proficiency in response to resistance and defensive tactics and what we mean by open mat is that whenever an officer wants to go and practice their skills the training is available to them on demand they can go and do it at any time they feel a need to improve upon their their skill set as it relates to responsive resistance and defensive tactics training there are no barriers a future training that's that's scheduled also scheduled to participate in additional scenario-based situational training which is mandatory and as i mentioned last week the officers will be participating in active bystander ship train training the department has has requested three three trainer trainer slots forward to receive the trainer training and those three those three instructors will provide and present this training to all sworn and non-sworn personnel and those are the responses to your question does anybody have any additional questions here can i ask you my question dr williams if you could bring down the slides sorry once so we can have that committee discussion that's okay and i can come in and help if you need it stop share got it yes hey dr williams thank you so much for that it's really helpful um a couple of questions number one yes in terms of the you said there was a particular officer that was i can't remember the exact language you used but a large portion if not the the totality of his job is to work with defensive tactic training yes sir the department identified an officer they selected that officer and he's dedicated to providing uh responsive resistance and defensive tactics training that's his that is his job to assure that every every member of the department all swarm members receive uh their training and i don't know if you would know this or who might on the call have we had the opportunity to speak to that officer no you have not uh spoken with that person yet okay uh but i just want to make sure i'm understanding correct so a big part of the training gaps the inconsistencies and whatever else was a part of that that you found connected to use of force uh was meant to be helped and remedied by this particular officer in the position that uh he's serving him it's a big part of that that this officer his his responsibility is to make sure that everybody receives their training yes sir he delivers that training but particularly connected to some of the use of force inconsistencies that you guys found gaps in yes yeah all it took place well i i think it'd be wonderful if we could at some meeting have the opportunities talk to him given that he's uh uniquely dedicated to this area that we're tasked to be thinking about together yes one more one more question yes sir was there any um as you dug into the material was there any um in regards to the discipline or the the sustained complaints internally or externally that have been made around use of force were there any gaps that you found that sort of or gaps maybe the wrong word but consistencies that you found there in in regards to you know we've got the new guy training it's going better it's much more consistent and yet in regards to these use of force complaints that are sustained here's some common threads that we're continuing to see despite all the good healthy steps we've taken i think i'll i'll yield this question to the chief i think he he he's prepared to answer that question for you thank you thank you dr rams you're welcome good evening so to your answer but no we did not find any gaps the the inconsistency that we found in the beginning was an inconsistency of consistency so being able to do it annually on a schedule that's where the gap was it wasn't the quality it was the quantity so that's what that's what we found when we were doing the analysis of it so so even the more recent you know that list that we were given i don't have it right next to me this time but that of the internal and external complaints you know about use of force whether it was tasers or some other things that were sustained and then last week as we talked about you know part of the discipline sometimes is more training you know around those like particularized training i was wondering if there was any consistent in in those episodes if there was any consistent hey this is this is getting missed consistency consistently with with tasers or with use of force that was more what i was trying to get at okay those were the two items that we had noted for follow-up from the last meeting unless there's any further questions or follow-up items that committee members had were here yes fam so will we be able to speak to this individual then chief will he be able to come in and speak to us yes if he at the end of this meeting we'll get whatever questions you have so he can be prepared to talk to you about whatever you want okay thank you sir certainly sarah did you have anything else nope that is all so and move into the next item okay so we're moving to item c which has received public comments from citizens regarding their input on use of force policies and training on their experiences and stories with the denton police department um i want to remind you to only ask questions of clarifications of the caller so we will be able to allow most of the comments that we have so we will start with the first caller okay we're calling the first caller back okay and chair english i also did want we also do want to mention that um the police department has a victim services counselor on hand so anyone who speaks and provides a comment if they would like to talk to that counselor afterwards we can get them connected by phone separately with that counselor true and there's a spanish translator here tonight as well in case anyone needs assistance all right thank you sarah give us just a second and we will get them queued up mr hud spitz i saw you here a minute ago where did you go is it yeah i'm not gonna mess with that because i'll uh be missing i got room he's on screen too madam chair okay but his picture's not up okay i don't want it up we need some inspiration brother yeah we want to see you willy i'm inspired every time i see you man yeah i've i've seen those emails don't talk don't tell me something yeah i'm listening i'm listening everybody say hi to willy all of your fingers up all of your fingers uh chief you didn't return my call so i'm gonna have to deal with you would you like to meet directly after this or in the morning yes i had a question before this meeting but i'll deal with it later i'm uh chair english i'm glad you uh communicated that we are just to listen and ask clarification questions only yes we are we're gonna get it right willy i have some issues i'd like to bring to the table but i've been told that this is not the platform for that this is not um well here is our first caller hello caller hi there how are you guys tonight okay um i'm gonna go fast i spoke with you guys um last meeting as well and i wanted to tell you i'm sorry what is your name sir it's michael motes okay hold on one second because we got to get you um and and hang on one second okay what is your name and address for the record it's michael motes and it's 1201 cleveland street and they live in denton okay and you know you have four minutes i do okay go ahead okay so like i said i spoke with you guys last meeting there was something i noticed and uh there were a couple more things i wanted to touch on because i went over last time and so wanted to call back uh the first thing i wanted to talk to you guys about that i think is worth looking at is i know that ultimately the city has the responsibility to oversee the denton police department i i would be curious to look at what if any law is in place or potential contracts that allow other police departments outside of the texas rangers or the state troopers and or the sheriff's department to come into the city limits and potentially pull people over for speeding potentially issuing tickets i in the last week have seen um a gentleman from the north lake police department come into the city limits and pull someone over so you know obviously as a police department we can only hold our department accountable but i want to know when outside jurisdictions come into the city what accountability do they have to our city because if another city is coming in and doing things like north lake police department pulling people over or our guile potentially pulling people over within those city limits i have questions about that the other thing i wanted to to mention was um regarding the trainings that were spoken about earlier today when you talk about they have the option to go in and do these trainings on demand i would ask what is the requirement or are they being required to go into these trainings if there is a complaint filed against the police officer are they being required to go in and do these trainings because we can have these trainings available all day long but then the question becomes how many of them are actually taking advantage of those trainings how many people are actually using those trainings and benefiting from them um rather than just being available because i know and i'm a college student i'm a grad student now this is a little bit different but if a if a professor tells me i have an optional assignment traditionally it is not something that i would go and do optionally um and so that those are the two things i just i really wanted to ask you guys about tonight was outside jurisdictions coming in whether it be the courts whether it be the states i know that in the last meeting there were some issues about jurisdiction between the district attorney's office and what the city of denton handled um you know when you have outside departments coming in whether it be the the troopers whether it be other cities whether it be the sheriff's office what accountability do they have do we get those report that information that they do what they issue a citation or whatever does that information then get reported to the city of denton do we have that information available is it included in the numbers that are being reported to the committee and are those considerations being taken into consideration because even if they're not um even if they're not acting on behalf of the city it is still valuable information especially if it's happening within the city limits so that's all i have for you guys tonight i just those are the two things i really wanted to address all right any questions um thank thank you we're waiting for our next caller hello hello it's jim beaver hi can you state your um name and address mr beaver yes my name is jim beaver aka james d beaver age 88 a four and a half year citizen of denton residing at 2820 wind river lane okay go ahead okay madam chairman and english and committee members i thank you for allowing me to address the issue that you're charged to study for your study i'll present for your consideration two issues that relate to the use of force by policemen issues that to my knowledge have not been addressed by your previous meetings neither by the media nor by politicians the issues are the rebellion of arrestees at the point of arrest and the crime rate of american whites and blacks i am not a racist i have many good friends including african americans white and others of various ethnicities and races who would vouch for the fact that i am not a racist and i faithfully vote i'll be using the word arrestee as an all inclusive of red white black yellow green or purple human beings thankfully most policemen are trained to overcome whatever forces they encounter and it is my opinion that the arresting policemen are often pushed to their limit of humane treatment by the arrestee's rebellious action to resist arrest unfortunately there are to my knowledge no rest statistical records that report point of access actions there is public evidence of a few videos focused on the events of rebellion at the point of arrest you've seen them on television with my limited time to four minutes i will not recall them to your attention here except for one the george floyd incident and the portion of the point of arrest video what do you suppose would have been the result of all these arrestees who would have humbly submitted to the authority of officers relative to that i believe that the george floyd case does not truly reflect the character of any police department i also believe that the policeman who at the point of arrest exhibited inhumane treatment of mr floyd and should be tried and if judged guilty received a due and just punishment rendered the second issue worth of your consideration is this us crime rates of blacks and whites data extracted from the 2018 fbi uniform crime report form 43a reveals the following white population crime rate is 2.1 percent the black population crime rate is 4.7 percent that black americans rate is over two times greater than the white's crime is terrible and that's why it's important in my opinion for you to deal with that problem locally in fact it is my opinion that it merits much more attention than dealing with the alleged misuse of force by policemen and my heart goes out to the black people in our community and elsewhere racism is a problem that must be dealt with and is two-sided it's a two-way street ponder that it has existed since adam and eve american history has proved that governmental actions have not resolved and will not resolve our issue of racism why because racism is a moral issue yes racism is a moral issue a heart issue of what one believes about the sanctity of life racism can only be compromised by national reformation in matters of morality established on solid fixed truth that truth on which our nation was founded scripture not relativism has now taught by our public education institutions jesus said i am the way of truth follow my example thank you very much thank you mr beaver does anyone have any questions or comments from mr beaver i did have a question uh madam chair yes sir mr beaver thank you for your uh comments can you give us the source of those statistics that you offer to us please yes i did tell you that those statistics came directly from the fbi uh let me see if i can get back and get the correct uh annunciation or the correct description it's the fbi uniform crime report form 43a they produce that once a year and i think quarterly also okay and who had a who had a question one more question katina hello sir um do the statistics that you pulled do they take in consideration the uh criminalization rates of black and brown people historically and currently what i quoted to you was from the uniform crime report form 43a and that is the basis of i i do have other sources i have examined but this was the one that's complete and they give an annual report this is from an annual report i cannot report on what you just asked me well i'm asking well let me let me address one let me address it one more time i did go back to 2017 and the way you can do that is trace back there's uniform crime reports of various years to to get your answer to your question it needs examination i agree okay okay okay anyone else have any more questions for mr beaver thank you sir for calling in and i thank you all right have a good night um we have another caller good evening mr campbell hello good evening how you doing good how are you i'm doing great doing great can you state your name and your address please yes wayne campbell 1410 university drive okay go ahead you have four minutes okay well if i had a theme for my talk it'll be better together i believe that the citizens of denton and the police department of denton are better together we need one another we need to be working together as one i don't believe that um we should demonize the police nor should the police demonize the citizens um i've been a resident of denton since 2014 when my wife and i moved here and we pretty much feel that this is a safe city we've had some interaction with the police all positive all legal and lawful and we personally haven't had a problem with the police department i have great confidence in our chief um frank dixon i believe that he's going to do a great job with our police department um the previous chief i think he did um a decent job as well he worked from what i understand pretty closely with the NAACP anytime issues might have happened so he seemed like he was trying to make sure our force was a um force that was respectful to people and it was also trying to stand by our crime to the best of their abilities but i personally and everything i've seen from the denton police in my reaction with them they seem to be a good force a professional force um i'm all for improvement sensible improvements that's why i definitely supported body cams i definitely support um de-escalation training and i support um measures to help our police officers not see people in a biased light um no part no force is going to be perfect but i think that this force is good i don't believe that this force is one is um systemically racist i am african-american by the way um but i do believe that therefore most part fair now i'm not going to say everybody in the force is a great person i don't know everybody and i'm sure they're bad apples like there'll be bad apples in any place in city committees or city councils or any things that nature but i do believe that most people are trying to do what they can to make um the street safe i definitely would be against extremist measures like defunding the police i don't think that that would help at all as we see in other cities where crime is starting to escalate um that would be a good good idea instead we should not only fund the police but fund social services fund education fully fund all the things that really make citizens' lives better but this is not the time to demonize the police but a time to look at them and enact sensible regulations and procedures that will help the police to be the best they can be they will respect the rights of citizens but still be able to fight crime because that's what that's what they need to do um finally i'll have to say my heart definitely goes out to the parents of Darius um Tabber um that was such a tragic um tragic loss of life and i don't believe that those officers woke up that day saying we're going to kill a man um just because he's black the i looked at the video of it and things definitely spiraled out of control and nobody knew those cops did not know his state of mind or what he was facing what he was about they did not know they acted in the best manner they could in a short time that happened he was asked repeatedly to put down um the weapons which he didn't and unfortunately his life's lost and it's a tragedy that someone that young with so much potential had to go but i don't believe that that was something that was intentional i think it was tragic but i don't think that that is something that we can demonize our force over so in a nutshell guys we're better together as police department i hope that you guys come up with sensible procedures that will help our force be the best it can be i think that on the whole the force has done a decent job the city's relatively safe in my opinion i lived in three states but seems to be a very safe relatively safe city okay mr campbell i'm sorry your your time is up does anyone have any questions for mr campbell thank you mr campbell for calling in you're welcome you guys have a great day all right you too thank you we're queuing up the next call hello hi can you state your name and your address please yes good evening my name is rita brent reinhart my address is 1817 westminster street apartment 203 danston okay mr reinhart you'll have four minutes and once we get you started you'll have four minutes and then if they have any additional questions they'll ask you so you can start now okay i am calling about okay i'm calling about the matter in danton of defending the police and i am totally against that we need more funding for the police they need more training more police officers we've seen what has happened in cities across the united states that have defunded the police there's more crime in new york los angeles seattle portland the seattle police chief quit this is a political agenda which puts into risk the safety of the public and of the police officers also i will vote with greg abbott on freezing the taxes the property taxes all across the state for those cities that defund the police and um so i think that's about all i've got to say about it i'm against it completely all right thank you for calling in does anyone have any questions for our caller thank you miss reinhart okay thank you have a good evening and we're queuing up our next our next person hello caller hi hi how are you i'm great can you state your name your address yes this is janette sorbelo and i live at 205 willowstone street here in denton miss sorbelo we're going to give you four minutes and once you get started i will um give let you four minutes and if anyone has any additional questions then they'll ask um when your four minutes is up okay that sounds good all right you can go now okay i want this is janette sorbelo and i want to express my support for the denton police department we know that law and order gives us security and we want to raise our children in a safe environment we need the police department for that security they keep the citizens and the streets safe we aren't fearful because we can rely on them to keep order they help when people are in distress and i appreciate that they put their lives on on the line every day for us okay do you have anything else one you have you have more time i know i just we just need them okay does anyone have any questions for our caller all right no one has any questions thank you so much for calling in and have a great evening all right bye-bye okay we'll take a quick break for a second while they're queuing up the caller pardon me hi caller yes my name is terry vogue can you state your your address terry can i give you my address it's 2001 south ridge drive okay 76205 thank you terry you're going to have four minutes to speak and i'll let you know when you can get started and go okay go now yes okay i'm just calling because i'm concerned of something i saw book that someone is making a motion or whatever to defund our police department and i am thoroughly and completely against that i've lived in denton since 1985 this is a peaceful town and i think it's peaceful because we do have a good police department i think if anything they're under funding and i do not want to see any defunding of the police department and i think it's a bad ideas in the cities that have done it i think there is just we're just asking for anarchy and i hope that the city of denton city council has the good sense not to follow bad judgment and that's all i have to say all right thank you does anyone have any questions for our caller well thank you for calling in and have a good evening thank you all righty madam chair in general uh i would like to see if the callers had any input regarding the use of force hang on okay caller yes hi can you state your name and your address please this is lee shanglin and it's 4000 fiscal hill and then okay lee you'll have four minutes to speak and you can start now okay first time i would just want to let you know i've been a resident of denton for the past 24 years in that time i have utilized 911 and the police only a few times but each time under the circumstances they were good experiences unfortunately i have received a few traffic tickets um but again every time a police officer has always been outstanding through my years in denton i've served on the board of numerous non-profit organizations and i have given thousands of hours of community service one thing that stands out in my mind is the kindness and generosity i have witnessed with the denton police department and denton county sheriff's office through various non-profits i have witnessed many law enforcement officers giving their time to serve and help their community i think it is important to remember that police officers are not just a badge they're not a cop car and they're not a gun they are human beings like the rest of us they feel like the rest of us and they have hearts like the rest of us they do much good in this world like the rest of us except unlike most of us they put their lives on the line and they do that to protect us and because of this i feel that they have the right to protect themselves and have the right to have use of force as they see fit i feel that it is important that the chief and people within the department are the ones who determine what that is where the line is drawn and how they protect their side their selves in their lives this leads me to a point also that i want to make quickly and there is a particular city council person that has an agenda that is not the same as the agenda of this group this person wants to demonize the denton police department and they will go to any length to appear to be a martyr for her constituent even if that means she has to lie or make up stories about law enforcement or law enforcement officers this particular city council member will also go to such lengths as to line up her buddies to call into this committee each time you guys need to bash the denton police department it's the same tactic she uses with the denton city council meetings i'm asking that you please keep in mind that this organizing of presenting lies and distortions is happening by an attention seeking city council member and as difficult as it might be try to decipher between truthful and false statements this particular city council member is so anti-police that she has gone as far as to call this weekend's rally in denton to support police officers a clan meeting she's publicly posted this on facebook and she has posted that these people attending the rally should leave their hoods at home she even went further stating that the denton police department is toxic and stated that she doesn't understand why anyone would become a police officer there she then encouraged denton police officers to speak out against their department promising her support and backing there's the cancer that wants there to be trouble with the denton police department she wants you to believe that there are issues and she is going to great lengths to sway your opinion that way thank you for your time thank you um does anyone have any questions for our caller katina hello do you think it's possible that she this person that you're speaking of that she doesn't have some type of uh hold on that people actually have their own minds and opinions um it sounds like you're putting um the responsibility of people having opinions other than yours on this one person's shoulders as if everyone isn't a a free thinker i guess i'm not sure i understand your question well i'm just a little surprised to hear like i've never heard where someone would call in and talk about a person i thought you were so supposed to be talking about issues but you're you're you went down this bullet list about this city council person and all but said her name so my question is is she solely responsible for all the other the opinions that differ from yours is she i wouldn't say all of them but i know that she uh lines up and encourages uh people to call in to um put in false information and what i'm just saying is be aware and just be just be aware of that thank you miss shanklin thank you yes willy i want to remind us why we're here well mr willy i asked a question don't come with me and i have another one while we're at it and i have and i have some too but i that's not where we're here i asked a question and my question is a legitimate question mr willy i didn't attack the woman i didn't do what you did in the last meeting i mean you challenge what she thought just her thoughts that's what she put the she put the whole of uh everything that's going on and didn't i wanted to know it's i mean because you attacked a person in a public forum which i think i didn't realize the forum was for that but they all called her name i have a right to know that she think this person is that influential or can people think for themselves that's a legitimate question yeah you have my second question is are people going to be allowed to call in and like attack people or give their thoughts without yes yes this is this is a distinction mr willy well well i'm confused then i thought we were just here listening and then we're going and asking questions which is what i or clarification i digress okay all right then i don't know what to do well i've got some some firemen questions i want to ask okay well this is not this hold on willy like i said that's not what this is for easy no it's not yes camion i just wanted to share with the caller i believe i wrote oh really okay well i just wanted to share because i think a few people on here might not even know what she's talking about or who so i just wanted to publicly share that that's not necessary we were just getting clarity and everybody said what they had to say we have another caller on hold and we can discuss this after we're done all i'm saying is that we have one city council member that's been a part of these meetings that has had input and it's jesse davis and we haven't had any input from any other city council members that's all i wanted to say well jesse is a part of this of this group and he hasn't had much input he's here to listen and to clarify whatever questions that we have as so as the police chief so it's designed for that it's not that every city council person will call in here and have their own opinion or whatever that's not what this group is for so we're going to move on to the next caller go ahead good evening caller yes my name is tom silver i live at 2201 long middle street here in denton hi and i was just calling mr silver we're going to give you four minutes and then um you can start now okay well i just called because i'm one of those that would like to see the i don't want to see the our police officers handicapped because when they get handicapped unfortunately i feel like the citizens of denton would be handicapped so i would like to i i don't believe in defunding them do i believe that our police officers are doing a good job overall in the city of denton i believe that they are i don't think that any police force or any police officer or any clergy member or any firefighter or any military person is above reproach but in the same instance i think that overall these police officers in our city do a pretty good job so i would rather them see them not defunded by any means um if it takes a little education as far as dealing with people and stuff that would be okay but i can't see taking away funds just to take away funds if you know what i mean i know that many of you in this in this account this group that's here understand uh discrimination i do i happen to be a mexican american that has been discriminated against in the past but that doesn't necessarily mean that i let that rule my life or dominate every thought what what i do think that makes sense is for us to do the best that we can to see that we provide our police force with the best that we can give them so they can give the best protection to us the citizens of denton so uh that's basically in a nutshell what i wanted to say i'll wait for any comments that you guys might have thank you mr silver does anyone have any comments for mr selva i just had a quick question this is lillian okay can you can you just clarify for me what do you what do you think it means to defend the police okay i would think that you would take away i know i know you won't take away all their funding but you would take away some of their funding that they might be able to use for equipment that they could use for to better protect themselves and us citizens that's what i think defunding is if i'm wrong then i stand corrected no i i mean then someone else can jump in too i think you're right it's not taking away everything because a lot of people have been calling in and talking about defending it's not dismantling the police department it's not taking away you know enormous amounts of money it's just reallocating some of those funds to maybe other places where there isn't enough funding that would maybe decrease their workload i just want to make sure that the people that talk are understanding that yes yes any any uh in order to fully comply with the texas open meetings act using this format we've got to see people's faces the videos um so if we could just uh ask that i realized that lillian's trying to um juggle two things at one time but the state law is pretty clear that using this technology we have to see people's faces for the visual recording thank you yep thank thank you thank you mr silver does anyone else have any questions for mr silver thank you for calling in mr silver thank you y'all have a blessed evening all right you too we're going to take a five minute break um we are trying to get a hold of the last caller and we need to do a couple of technical things here so five minutes okay thank you everyone for um coming back we are going to continue our meeting we were unable to get the last caller um who was calling in and we are going to move to the next item of the agenda which is item d receive a report and hold a discussion regarding proposed topic areas related to the use of force in the denton police department including a police officer and a police officer including internal affairs training accreditation and compliance police policy and use of force and provide staff direction on finding or recommendations by topic is that you sarah that is me um hi chair english and committee members um so what we'd like to do during this item is we've shared a lot of information with the committee members over the last couple months and there's been some questions in terms of how do we move forward and transitioning to discussing conclusions and recommendations and so i put forward kind of a draft framework and timeline for the remaining committee meetings and like to review that with the committee members at this time so let me go ahead and pull up that presentation it was also shared with you through email just prior to the meeting okay so jumping right in um this is what we're proposing for the remaining meetings and we have two that are left to be held on september 3rd and september 10th and we're also proposing to add one additional meeting on september 17th and hold if we need another one in september 24th and so to walk you through um our next meeting is on september 3rd we would recommend having the entire meeting be set aside for the committee to discuss any conclusions and recommendations in regards to use of force policy and training and i'll go over a few more slides that will kind of set up the committee to discuss that at the next meeting but i'll continue through and seeing what the future meetings look like so then in september 10th and we'd kind of do part two which would be in regards to use of force review and transparency any feedback conclusions recommendations you have in those areas and then mike cronic our city attorney would also present some information that was requested from the committee in regards to civilian oversight boards following those two meetings staff would go back and draft a report that would be delivered to the committee and then on september 17th we would review that draft report with the committee and potentially finalize it if needed though we could hold an additional meeting on september 24th to finalize that report to present to city council and then sometime in early october that report and recommendations would be presented to city council and so before i go into the slides that will kind of provide a framework for the september 3rd meeting so that the committee members are prepared to discuss use of force policy and training i'll bring down the presentation to see if committee members have any questions or recommendations regarding that timeline and framework yes willie uh who will be the person or persons who will assist us in determining what we've agreed on in other words manage that meeting who will who which person or persons will be is going to be selected to manage that meeting i think it's that process yeah i think it'll be a combination of chair english as well as staff helping to provide that support in terms of what are some recommendations or conclusions that have majority or just some others that have been suggested by committee members as well that's who again uh chair english as well as city staff well i i don't agree with that but i don't know that i have any place other than just won't be here but uh so okay well i guess is there feedback um committee member hutzpeth i will be trying to determine if there is a majority or consensus amongst some of the items there are people that when we were as i said before who assisted us when we were looking for the chief uh not yeah the chief and the city manager they were professionals they knew they didn't have a they didn't they weren't part of trying to communicate anything for us they were just there to listen to what we had to say and to steer us in a direction where we could say something collectively to respond to what the the city council has asked us to do and so if you have someone like that who is not part of the committee and what what we are trying to do as far as make making that recommendation i think it will go better you just they're just taking the information we give them they've been trained on how to do this and i think it would be more effective to get us to the point where we need to be uh quicker hold on uh john baines has a comment and then you carry me on uh we're at a we're at a critical juncture here and we have a lot of information that's been communicated so far and to get our arms around it i have a couple of suggestions and i do hear you mr hutzpeth um let me just kind of um i hate to use a 25 cent word but let me let me just talk for just maybe a minute minute and a half i'll see if i can get it out what i'd like to see us do is two things each of us needs to come up with uh written suggestions in categories uh preferably if if uh sarah if you could get us the various categories and then we can respond in writing and also give us a chance to have a five minute or four minute just like the other input people to kind of communicate our thoughts and then i'd like to see all that information put in a matrix where we go through the matrix and we vote on we want to include this so we don't want to include that and it's just going to take some time but that's kind of a three-pronged uh approach i see because we got so much we got a lot of opinions but we're going to need to boil it down to something in writing each of us needs to do that and also have a chance to communicate uh any areas that need a little additional information and then we lastly once you have a matrix of suggestions then we go through and and yes or no and then come up with a final conclusion so that's my input thank you camya yeah i just wanted to say i think that willy is saying that it would help us if we had like a facilitator that's not a part of the group that can help like lead the discussion draw out all the themes that come up from us put them into a digestible draft that we can then turn into a report that they can help us write um the second thing that i wanted to say and i think that would be helpful also the second thing that i wanted to say is i guess it's more of a question i have a document kind of like what mr baines is speaking of it's not into categories but i have a document of draft things that i'd like included in the oversight board a draft statement that i'd like presented as a part of the report some drafts of changed um policies that we were presented on what is the best way for me to share that information with the entire group or yeah so like i i did the the thing that we were given for the three top categories um but it's not going to fit everything else i have right so what is the best way to do that and ensure that it's shared with the group or should i just hold on to it till we meet and like read it aloud you know what i'm saying i'm trying to figure out what's the best way to do that stuff if some of us have been doing some research on the policies that we have been presented yeah there's probably a few different ways to go about it i guess i can propose um that if committee members do for the next meeting on september 3rd we're going to be discussing policy and training in those areas if you have any um suggestions that you would like to share with all your fellow committee members to get those to me by friday august 28th just by email i can compile that into one document to share with the committee in advance of the september 3rd uh meeting and that can also be used then if as a discussion to help facilitate that discussion i don't know if city manager haleman has anything to add in terms of no i think that's exactly right we've tried to break it down into um digestible topics i think it was kind of a question jamie brought up last week is how we're going to work through these issues and um i think that first one on the policies procedures that sort of thing what we really want to understand from the committee is what um you know what suggestions do you have that uh you know trainings that you feel like we're not covering um that you'd like us to add into the portfolio that sort of thing i've set aside additional funding through the next year's budget as well to to try to accommodate uh chief dixon and um and provide him some additional dollars to implement new training opportunities as well so it would be helpful uh based on all the trainings that they have developed recently um in all the updates to the policies if you think that there's still areas that that we haven't addressed sufficiently that really is the focus of the next meeting is to give you the you the floor and just say look you know we we see that there's progress we we think that we're missing x what what is that and so we can have that discussion with the committee and have those recommendations on the training use of force continuing those sorts of things in another week or two it's going to be critical that we allow michael kronegg our attorney and expert in 143 and that meet confer contract to talk to you a little bit about about oversight before we get into that discussion some of the things that we're seeing in other communities are just not allowed under the state law in denton since we're 143 city or under our meet confer contract so he will help you set that context that doesn't mean that there's not ways of getting there in in other forms that there's there's not a way to address it but rather than spend a lot of time on things that just simply can't even be met from a legal perspective we want to at least allow you the opportunity and give you uh some training on his end and then set aside another meeting or two for you to continue kicking that item around so we realize these are big issues but what we're really interested right now in the training use of force everything that you've seen what are we missing and then we'll get into the oversight as well and and just talk about what would you like to see what are some ideas that we kick around and i have a few slides that i can share with you that kind of wrap up the policy and training areas and provide the links to all the documents we've provided again and give you some probing questions to help committee members um become prepared for september 3rd or to send some of those recommendations to us in advance in regards to that i can go over those next after taking the remaining questions from the committee oh we can't hear you both there was uh thanks for putting this together in uh obviously there's something that's sort of shaping i think um in your own minds as you're listening to us obviously what you're saying this seems like this would be a good direction and i think even one of you either you sarah or todd you last week said hey it's pretty clear as we're listening to some things that are coming up that are being repeated could you maybe tell us a little bit about what those things are that therefore shaped what you're presenting to us tonight even in regards to your recommendations about how to best sort of organize this for just what you're hearing what you've heard even as kind of like willy's talking about you know you're sitting in and listening and you've helped us here and there but you've done a lot of listening and so uh that'd be helpful to hear i think what i would like to do is ask sarah she's she's got a slide uh put us we kind of anticipated this question and and um i'd like to have her pull that up so you can sort of see how we're thinking this through we'll pull it down and if you don't if you don't like it you want to uh change the way we're thinking about it we're open to it but we just felt like it's always easier to sort of edit someone else's work and try to give you some idea of what we're thinking um but why don't we ask sarah to kind of pull that up and we'll take you through it okay one second i'll pull back up the powerpoint um so these next um three three slides that i'm going to go through they're just kind of a quick review of the policy training accreditation and compliance information and that we have provided to you and then the very final slide is some of those questions um for consideration some of the main inquiries we've heard some of the themes we've heard that might help facilitate the committee's discussion around policy and training um so these next few slides again are just intended to help the committee members if there's anything that you want to go back re-look at as you're kind of considering um your own recommendations and suggestions we've taken each area just kind of summarize some of the main themes that you've heard so for policy in terms of all the policies and general orders that were updated since chief dixon started him using the lexical system and all of its benefits and all the substantial improvements that have made have been made to including all of the resource links so you can access again all of the general orders the presentations um the q a's that we've had um his recent report on august 13th which included some more information regards to policy if you haven't seen it it actually compares um our old general orders prior to 2018 to the new current general order so you can see some of the improvements that have been made um and then to your right here are the list of specific use of force related policies that chief dixon has reviewed with the committee members so if there's any specific language changes that you would like to see in these policies again that would be helpful for committee members to review and send in any suggestions they might have by august 28th so we can compile those for the committee discussion so this is in regards to policy those guidelines that our officers use and then it kind of connects policy into training how do we train our officers then to use that and use their discretion and make sure that they are prepared when they are providing service to our community and so a lot of information was presented here as well in terms of the basic the academy that officers go to when they are a new officer from the ongoing training that they receive from the legislative mandated training including all of the department mandated training a lot of that has changed and increased in the last two years and just by example the chart to the right includes those mandated trainings that chief dixon has implemented which include a number of themes including de-escalation some new courses including persons with autism and then also just reinforcing you know his mission and vision in terms of how our police department does business what are the expectations of our police officers and how do we best serve this community and then kind of as we talked about in training to the the peer support team that has been in place for over a year to make sure that we are providing for officer wellness and and looking at things that may be trigger points and helping to make sure that our officers are well supported as well and here are the links again if you want to look at any of the information a lot of that information came last week including the presentation report and then as well as the q a document that was provided there are a lot of great questions from the committee members at the last meeting and so we tried to summarize some of those answers into that q a document for your reference if you want to go back and take a look and see if there was any suggestions you had while we were having those discussions and then just this third area in terms of accreditation and compliance it kind of supports both policy and training so what are the best practices in policy and training and then every other aspect of the police department as well but this is really important moving forward in terms of ensuring that we are constantly evaluating and comparing to the evolving and best practices legislation and so forth so that we continue to evaluate and update those and make sure that we're remaining within best practices and so that tied really closely to the policy and the training areas as well and then included here are the links that you see which some more information that dr williams had provided so that kind of is all the review again just kind of providing a resource for committee members to go back and review these areas if you would like to lead into a discussion regarding policy and training overall these were just some questions we came up with that might help to foster that discussion for the committee and also just as you're individually considering things in the two weeks prior to the next meeting so how do you have any concerns with the general orders are we missing something do you have any recommendations for specific policy language that you feel should be revised or that could be improved or that could provide more clarity for the officers and the public as well do you feel that there are any training gaps or opportunities are there things we're still missing or are there things that you think maybe it just needs more volume more quantity and if so what types of trainings are those is it more in de-escalation is it in mental health diversity inclusion those are a lot of themes that we heard through last week's discussion as well as prior meetings in terms of what resources are we giving to our officers to make sure that they're the best equipped to deal with these difficult situations that they might find themselves in and then just are there any recommendations regarding support for officer wellness or the last one just kind of broadly any recommendations regarding enhancing of reporting of information to the public or is there something we can be doing differently in terms of public education to describe to our community how the police department operates in terms of general operations but then more specifically use of force why it would be needed how it is reviewed how you can report a concern and so forth and so that's kind of just a framework we had laid out and welcome to hear any input or suggestions as we kind of transition into that next meeting so boze it gets back to your question earlier that that discussion on policies training gaps that sort of thing we've tried to give some leading questions so we can actually start heading the direction that willy was talking about with getting you know what are those common themes we can try to get those organized for you as a jumping off point we can certainly assign somebody to moderate that meeting just in terms of looking for themes but this is really we've sent a lot of information your way you've seen a lot of the progress that's been made but that doesn't mean everything's been covered camion brought up a comment a couple weeks ago about you know she'd like to see more specific lgbtq training we had heard jamie talk about more training you know for folks with disabilities so what does that mean and one of the things i've asked the chief to do is to you know try to also work with the universities and say if we want to create some different kind of trainings like that you know what kind of resources can we pair up with in order to meet this committee's recommendation so we're trying to give you some leading questions giving you all the policies we've talked at you a lot but now it's kind of you know we really need to hear what you what you think and what we might be missing so we can help you get your thoughts in order looking for those gaps and those training policies and procedures and then i think the next remaining part of september and in october we can talk about the the actual any oversight recommendations as well there's going to be a lot of meeting conversations and we want to get you educated in what we can and can't do and then get out of your way so we can kind of organize it the way you want but we really need your thoughts up front if we're going to use your time wisely willy you got to turn it on willy we can't hear you there you go i want this time that i'm allowing to interrupt what i'm i need to be doing other than this to be beneficial i i i'm a a person that says that thinks this is what i'm asked to do and i just i just look at that and then i decide okay this is what i think we should do and i've heard from the people in this committee and each one of us do that every one of us is doing that so i think i think what mr bain said what katrina said what bo was speaking to is we need somebody to pull this together let me give you an example of what i'm struggling with right now the charge is and like i say i'm driven with what are you asking me to do to develop a report of clear findings lord help me we're gonna get something clear out of this clear findings conclusions an achievable recommendation there's no way well all of this information that we've been i've been given heck i can't even i can't there's no way i can keep up with all of that but some of you can i'll bet you there's some things that you have heard that really communicates to you and you want to address that somehow a facilitator would help us there's only one thing for example that i want to recommend to the to the chief and to the city council on use of force one thing i don't i'm going to allow the rest of you to address whatever you want to address okay so if i only have one thing and i'm going to suggest that we do that who is going to pull us together with that who's going to hear me and all of what you have to say and then pull it together in something that's recommended and achievable who is going to do that we will certainly work with you to do that what we will certainly work with you to do that i'm i'm happy to even have staff sit down with each of you one on one and get your thoughts so we can get a running start on this if that helps things that's a point i didn't think about that and willy we'll even get two for you two staff people to work with you you know but if that's what you think but we'll you know i i realize i realize this john bain said three for willy i realize this seems like a heavy academic lift but we can certainly sit down and just kind of talk you through it compile it and i think the best way what any what any moderator is going to do is basically say here's everything you've told me let's just seal it down and let's start working through as a committee do you agree disagree chief has this already been covered or not what ideas do you have and so i think if we can do that and everybody will agree to give our team an hour or two of your lives over the next week we can get prepared for that you bet and i will tell you one other thing that we sort of glossed over was was the one thing that became very apparent to all of you the first couple to us from your comments was just how are we reporting you know you weren't real pleased with the data right you know the first couple meetings so chief dixon's actually already started implementing a system that he's heavily copied out of san antonio which is very robust much more searchable for the information you all wanted to see and and so we're i'm sorry so so we're so that that's how we're sort of listening to you and adapting and it's been really good for us because sometimes it can be we can become an echo chamber as well so just through the questions that you're asking us he's already running and trying to get the data out there in the format you want to see it in the public hand so i feel like i feel like that needs to be something we need your feedback on is some of the internet improvements or website improvements he's made we need your improvement we need your updates on and your input for a running start on the training programs and the that sort of thing and then we'll get into the oversight after the next several meetings but our idea would be to put everything in in a fashion there to where we can turn it over to you and let you talk to us okay um lillian and then camia yeah i i think that um and someone said it earlier i mean if each of us on the committee i think if i would like to hear i know that you're saying is suggesting that each committee member talked to staff but i would like to hear what other committee members have to say so maybe if we could push back the meetings and the next time that we meet that we would allow each of us maybe to have the four minutes like like others did just to kind of share and kind of just kind of process everything together as a committee because there's lots of conversations that we could have between the people that are calling in but we don't out of respect for them but i still feel like we need to process some things together as a committee before we even go into recommendations or anything like that yeah i think we're saying the same thing though i mean if we can if we can sit down with each of you and and say you know here's our here's everything that came out put it into a matrix for you and say you know what we forgot about this it may spur other ideas things but the idea would be to put that together for all of you to talk through together it can't if it's just freewheeling it without any structure where you're going to get very frustrated camion here i can't we can't hear you sorry okay um first i want to say thank you to sarah for what seems like a pretty good digested uh recounting of the questions that we had and the the things that we wanted to review so i really appreciate that work and the powerpoint that you did and the leading questions that's going to be very helpful um i tried to click on some of the links in the pdf that you sent the only one that i could get to open was the one to the denton police department link so i was wondering if you could like maybe just send us an email with those links because that would be helpful and this is slightly unrelated but is there a way that someone can send us like the open meetings act information just so that we know okay that would be helpful because i feel like there's a couple meetings where we're learning new things about it and i'd like to know i didn't know i couldn't have my camera off you know for instance so i'd like to know because sometimes i'm eating back here right and so this is on the internet forever and you know what i'm saying so i'm like i'd like to know like what what my responsibilities are while i'm on here so as long as as long as that thank you for that as long as we have a quorum uh you know it's fine that we have enough cameras on but um if you're asking a question you need to be seen and so if you could just kind of remember that if you're if you need to turn it off we've got a quorum and eat that's fine but if you're asking questions that people have to see you asking them so does that sound fair to everyone that we'll we'll break off to last two or three of our staff to kind of sit down with you go through work our way through the questions that um that sarah shared with you and then kind of organize that into a matrix for you to talk about i mean there could be a lot of these issues once we go through them that that are either in progress or we're partly there that you might want us to simply add modules for instance john are you are you waving your hands on yes madam chair i was i was wanting to get a copy of that document that sarah just just showed on the screen have we received that already or is it something that is to come i i sent it by email i think around five right before the committee meeting i can share again i'll recheck the links um and make sure they all function and then resend them again sorry about that if it's in there i'll go back and look my my assistant gave me some documents i did not remember that one so thank you yes and see yeah madam chair uh honestly i want to say that i don't i'm not certain that we probably should take off next week then because i feel like we might actually run out of time uh discussing the remaining items with just two weeks i mean or two more meetings uh one in particular which is not to be the elephant in the room is going to be when we discuss the oversight committee i think that in and of itself is going to take up the whole two and a half hours that we allot for time which means we're not going to be able to really discuss the education or the policy in and of itself so my opinion i don't know how that's going to work with staff or anybody else i just don't think we should take next week off because here in two weeks i don't think we'll still have a consensus of what we were chartered to do and to yancey's point i agree with him if we can impose on you but if not we have built in two more meetings and then and then move back our report to council until october 5th so um but i agree with him it's going to be a meeting conversation and probably not something that'd be achievable in one meeting so are you guys okay with either coming back next week or taking a week off and then come back and pushing it back to october um just kind of give me a general consensus if you're okay with taking off next week just raise your hand up guys if we're okay with taking off next week taking off next week you can come back and we've kind of pushed it back yeah what is that gary gary is that a yay or nay i agree with yancey i would prefer to meet next week and keep the momentum going but you're going to give us two options i just ask a question carol i have a board meeting on thursday so i can't meet thursday i have class on thursday so be available okay i think if we're and going to staff sit down and with each member and kind of interview them it might be beneficial to have those two weeks just so we can kind of framework it better for september 3rd as long as everyone in the committee could commit to an additional meeting i can pull back up the um that first slide that shows the proposed additional meetings um because that would be important then to have one more meeting i do think more time will be necessary it's either we can fit another meeting in or add that meeting to the end so let me just share that screen one more time um to show you what that proposed date looked like so it was we do have september 3rd and september 10th scheduled we proposed to add september 17th we know that will be necessary and we may even need september 24th to finalize that just depending on how long those discussions take on the 10th and the 17th just wanted to show that one more time so we have a possibility of four meetings left rather than two even taking these weeks off okay yes and camion if you want to send us the information to to sarah we'll get we'll get out to everybody right away whatever you have but we'll ask we'll we'll we'll ask our staff to sit down with each of you for a couple hours if you could make the time and if it if you don't need that long that's fine and just try to get it organized to so you can have a productive conversation yes angela i think yancy was his hand up was before i'm sorry i didn't see yes yancy so i see that we have uh two meetings and a proposed two additional meetings my question is uh so if it's going to be a total of four meetings are we going to have like three work session meetings and then the fourth meeting is just to finalize the report or is that fourth meeting going to be another work meeting and then we're going to have to have another meeting in order to finalize the report to bring back to council i'm just trying to get a grasp on how these meetings are going to go and uh when when will the finalized report be presented to council are we going to continue to work because we're going to have to have a meeting to finalize everything yeah we were hoping to have um the uh meeting and on the 24th is sort of that last day if we needed to tighten up more recommendations on any of these items that we could do it then with the draft report that have it have a report provided to council on october 5th at their lunch meeting we really see if we can get all the information from the committee members and get it organized well we can probably jump right into many of these topics the first meeting or two michael's going to need a solid half a meeting probably to go through some of the oversight committee i guess there's kind of a linear continuum of options that from possible to not possible before we get into that discussion so we're probably going to need a couple meetings for that as well we figured that we'd probably need area all of the meetings if we have to slip back we'll talk about it but the idea was to get this report to them no later than their lunch meeting in october anybody else having yes willy you're on they get uh as far as i'm concerned the suggestion to meet with staff just solved all the concerns i have because i'll say to them the one area that that i am concerned about and would like to have it in the report somewhere i can just say that and then as the city manager said that he will the staff will take all of these things that we're saying this is where i where i am and then put them together and then then we have something that i think we can just work with and say oh yeah i think that's good right there and just have comments about that uh the chief really got my attention what he talked about if these if these police officers are asked to take all of this training and the amount of money that it would cost to do that and the amount of time it just communicated to me i don't know what i'm talking about then if i come in and say you need to do this and my one of my concerns is the required training what's required and why when is it required and he said if they're going to specialize then they need to have this training so they would decide to take that training instead of something else this is these are things that we're just not in positions to know we don't know this stuff so i'm not going to waste my time and their time trying to tell them what to do in that area there's a general thing about training i want to say in the report as a citizen on the committee here's what i'd like to say and i hope it's it's communicated well this is not communicating well when you say i just want you to get all the training you can get lord help me what does that mean so i think the when i talk to staff i'm pretty sure they'll help me figure out what i'm trying to say when i if i have anything to say about training so i think it's a good idea yes fronda i just have a question about does the union uh and the department they have a memorandum of understanding or memorandum of agreement that we can see we can get that out to everyone okay thank you john uh madam chair are we going to have a chance for everybody to give their four minutes and you can all listen to one another i'm hoping that uh i like lily and i'd kind of like to make sure i hear what others say so if i'm just listening to myself uh i don't think i get the benefit of of what others are trying to say so hopefully over the next several meetings we'll have a chance to do our four minutes i'm sure we can work that in yes angela uh and to piggyback on john baines i guess for clarity what i hear is you want your staff members to sit down with each of us to help us articulate what we want to bring to the committee me myself i i feel like i'm pretty articulate on my own um and i like mr baines would be really interested in hearing as a committee how we feel so i guess i didn't understand why we needed if we're going to have that conversation as a committee while we also need to sit down with an individual person is that going to be for those who feel like they need help with articulation or is everybody going to have to do that i think it's i think it's both i think the idea would be that to get everything out there all the ideas are pertaining to to these the first meeting and then give you all a chance to to talk as well but at least you've got everything there otherwise what happens is we're going to have all these ideas we're going to take another meeting to try to organize them and have a discussion on the same ideas so if we can if we can do that work up front we can help we can kind of expedite the committee i mean i'm trying to not take take this thing into november right so if if we can if we could do both and then just say here's what everybody told us here's all the the themes and you know here's areas that are you know we've dealt with already here's areas that are missing you all have that and can talk through it i think it's much more practical that way otherwise we're just going to be wrapping up your the same comments after that meeting next week so is that not what that survey was for where we were asked to give that information it is i i think that to be fair i think some people are more comfortable with that than others we've only got a couple of them back and and and i think that there's probably a lot of opinions like willie's that you know i really we need to sit down and say look is there things missing what's important to you take those questions there not not everybody responds to these survey questions the same way and so i think just sitting down saying look here's here's what we were told you guys you guys have all the information go ahead and continue talking are there things that that are missing off the list oftentimes when you have something like that saying you know what that spurred another thought and that's not here let's let's talk about it but i'm just trying to avoid additional meetings to capture what you're going to discuss next week and that way willie gets company and lunch and all the other stuff and so we accommodate him yes both so mr baines is your concern lily and you as well um and maybe even you angela that because i'm i'm i'm hearing what they're saying in regards to you sit down you get everything out they capture it and then we still have four minutes uh in right to to share essentially what summarized hopefully in that meeting without the pressure of them having to sort it all out in the actual meeting that we shared mr baines is that your concern though that there may be something before you sit down with the city staffers that would be helped by you hearing from the other committee members is that am i making sense so that therefore if you don't hear us on the front end when you sit down with the city staffers it won't be as comprehensive as it otherwise would have been in your mind uh thank you uh bo for that request at this point i just hear background noise i hear there's a lot of things that have been presented but i'm not really sure i have a feeling of where everyone is on the issues so as they give their four minutes i think it will give us a chance to to communicate our feeling uh and sometimes the feelings bullet points don't always communicate your feelings so even though we will write those uh bullet points down i want to hit your feeling and that's why i think it's important that we have a chance to to articulate uh and clarify and amplify anything that we write down so that that for me that's what the purpose is i like both the writing but i also like the hearing as well but you don't care if that's before or after we meet with the city staff it matters not to me i'm okay i'm okay thank you for asking i'm the same way to me it doesn't matter if it's before or after i just want to hear what the committee members have to say rather than what staff thinks that the committee members said to them you know i want to hear straight from the committee members yeah i think this would this would be a lot easier if we were able to get together in the room because we'd sit up there with a whiteboard and start talking about themes but um this is not the easiest way to do it so we're happy to accommodate you both ways and kind of get out of your way yes nancy uh i don't know if it's possible maybe the chief can chime in or something but i think that if we're going to start working together and trying to voice everybody you know here here everybody i know for myself i do better with in-person meetings so we got the training center i'm not sure if it's open and we can maintain social distancing and all those guidelines but for me being able to see somebody and hearing in that way uh i think it's better even if staff is there that day we can actually try to hash out a lot of a lot of material as opposed to going back and forth and then we have to try to put it in some type of report and now we have to wait to next week to discuss it maybe if we have it on the whiteboard like the city manager just said you can just jot down these ideas on the whiteboard and we can just go down the list so i don't know if it's possible that we can arrange like a meeting place i know the training center is is large enough and i'm not sure what the schedule is like but maybe that's an option if people are willing to meet in person as opposed to over the zoom call so yancy were you saying that um all of us would meet at the at the training center at once i just think in-person meetings are better than over the zoom call so in my opinion i think the training center i know our training center is large enough to accommodate all of us with the social distancing for those that want to practice the social distancing and i'm sure city have a spot that we can probably meet if we need to do some type of work session but i think back to what the city manager just said that we can write stuff down on the whiteboard and then go down the list and start discussing those things as they come up as opposed to we having to let uh staff or sarah come up with a form and then she email it out to us and now a whole nother week have passed before we even can discuss that we possibly can discuss we can get the discussion out the way that night good tana i think that's a great idea and um i also think that it would be great to be in the same room with everyone so that we could possibly group up on um like-minded issues that we we you know there's five or ten of us that care more about data and you know capturing data as a part of the um like excessive force like capturing excessive force data then that that group can group together and then another group and we're doing it in a way that's transparent um and accountable because we're all together um because i know that you guys have discouraged us from you know gathering together outside of the meeting and i i think it would be really helpful for us to come together is there anybody that is uncomfortable if we can if we can social distance all of you and at the training center and doing it that way it that would that would avoid you know we could still do the pre interviews we want but the the reason we set up that process that are suggested the way we did is this is it's the only way i think to make this an efficient process if we stay on zoom but if if you want us to get if we can find a venue where we can social distance you we could probably just means willy's gonna have to yell a little louder but we'll get everybody spaced out and can everybody one room it's it's really up to you it's a matter of comfort right now some people are a little more worried than others but they're getting out and doing that uh todd how many people are we speaking of 25 or 30 so we've got the rooms to accommodate it we have a room okay just so everyone would know i'm a i'm a cancer survivor and i'm almost 70 so i kind of fit into two of those categories so i'm a little timid at times so um we'll just see how it goes but that's just me you know others may not have those uh yeah understood john thank you ronda yeah i was going to say um i don't have any underlying conditions but i am uh older so i'm just wondering if there's a way to do a combination of um zoom for those who don't want to you know social distance in a group and those others who aren't concerned about it meet face to face i think it's possible i mean i was at a chamber meeting this morning and i think half of us were there and the other half were on zoom is that correct gary yeah it is cheryl but i would tell you being on the zoom unless you're able to communicate both ways people on zoom are more watching a meeting as opposed to participating in the meeting we'll figure it out yeah we're just trying we're just having a discussion here whether we can satisfy the open meetings act with doing that i'd have to i probably just need a little bit of time talking to our our city attorney's office to see if there's any uh obstacles to that there's always an obstacle we'll figure it out yes camya is it possible for people to do a phone conference in and be on speakerphone if there's not possibility of video is that a part of the open meetings act can people call in yeah i think i think we could do that i think that might be easier just as well as we record these meetings so trying to do a dual recording of zoom and in person probably doesn't work but if it was in person but on other attendees on the phone that that would probably work better just need to investigate it a little further let's just um are we done with the last item sarah item e yes okay so let's just um we're going to in the meeting and we will kind of reconvene over there and figure it out and and talk with todd and sarah and staff and see how we can best accommodate an in-person meeting and get back to you guys okay and we'll probably still have staff reach out to you to see if you're interested in sitting down and working through those questions if you don't want to that's fine but if you'd like to take us up on it it's always easier to have a starting place thank you todd okay that's willy we can't hear you willy you got to push the button try to push the button i i do i want because it's just simple it only takes me 30 minutes i will say this is what i want here's why so communicate that to the committee and then here to staff so staff will say yes i know that's what you want i can hear you we can't do that oh and here's why or we can i will tell the committee that then i'm good okay now i think lillian had a good point too as well and and uh katrina well it really would help me to hear the rest of you i i want to because you'll say something in meetings like this i think if we meet individually personally in a group we'll hear things that the others are concerned about and it will help us well i think well i didn't think about that well yes that is something that i think needs to go into that report to the city city council so i think we're we're moving in the right direction i think it's going to help us come up with a report that is actionable that can work for the the police department in the city so i feel good about that thank you willie will it be recorded if we meet together yes okay okay so we're going to adjourn the meeting and um staff sarah will contact you with what what conclusions and how we get this worked out um and then we'll see you at the next meeting okay and i'd like a suggestion for brother bang to not to wear that hat without getting me one like it i like that he doesn't wear he is very good so i want a hat like that i got two for you brother i got two all right good night everybody