Good evening. This is the City of Denton Ad Hoc Committee, the use of force committee for
the Denton Police Department in the City of Denton. As we talked about last week, we are
going to have a presentation to follow up with some questions that you had last week.
We're going to do the first 30 minutes going over the presentation by Assistant Chief Bobby
Smith and then we will take calls from the community and we have already received, which
you should have been emailed, 40 comments via email. So I'm going to turn it over to
Assistant Chief and let him get started on the documentation in the request that you
got for last week. Good evening, everybody. This is Bobby Smith,
Assistant Chief of Police. It's a pleasure to be back with you tonight. I had some questions
from last week. Just wanted to follow up with you. One of the things that came up last week
was sort of a breakdown of the city when it comes to demographics. And so this is a chart
that we use internally and actually externally. This is the information we send to the Texas
Commission on Law Enforcement when we report our traffic stop data for racial profiling
purposes. And so this is how we have the city broken down when we send it off. If you look
in the middle of the screen there where it says race ethnicity, as you go down, you can
see the numbers for the city, including 9.4% for black and African American citizens, 23.9
for Hispanic Latino citizens, and 61.8 for our white citizens. There's a couple of asterisks
there next to the Hispanic Latino. It's the way it's described is that this is an ethnicity.
That Hispanic Latinos may report any race, but we can capture the data based on ethnicity.
And I also went back and updated this chart. There was some questions about, we had some
unknown not listed. If you remember, there was about 33 cases there that we didn't have
cleaned up. I went back and cleaned them up as much as I possibly could, and it did affect
the numbers somewhat. We also ended up with a couple of more complaints that were updated
in the system when I ran the report. So the number is just a little bit different, but
I think this is a pretty good depiction of what we currently have. So you can see out
to the side there that 24% of our complaints that are citizen related are from our black
citizens, 8% from Hispanic citizens, 63 from our white citizens, 2% from Asian, and we
still have some that are unknown. This is a new slide that I have that you didn't see
this last week, but I went ahead and showed you what the sustained by race percentage
is. And you can see that out of the 51 complaints filed by black citizens, 10 were sustained,
which is a 20% sustainment rate, meaning that we did determine that the misconduct occurred,
28% for Hispanic, 26% for white, and a small sample size for Asian other, but still 25%.
And overall, we have a 25% sustainment rate on our citizen complaints. You also asked
for a breakdown of some of the citizen related complaints as far as allegations. And as a
suspected courtesy is the is the highest number of allegations when it comes to citizen related
complaints with 62 and then unsatisfactory performance with 46, which is off about it's
about half and half when it comes to internally and externally generated unsatisfactory performance
complaints. And service complaints mentioned this last week, but that's mostly related
to performance. And then after that, the numbers dwindled down. We've talked about the use
of force. We give you the 14 plus the taser down towards the bottom, which is the 18.
And as far as other allegations, there's one here that I'd like to give you a little insight
on. If you see where it says body worn cameras, that's those are not complaints that are filed
by citizens, but they are directly related to the citizen complaint because what happens
in those cases is somebody makes a complaint for for courtesy or unsatisfactory performance.
And if the officer was not wearing the body or not utilizing the body worn camera, then
we that's a sustained complaint. So it does happen occasionally where the officer either
forgets to or doesn't turn the camera on. And I broke down those there's two of its
highest allegations just to give you a little more background on it. When it comes to courtesy,
which is discourteous behavior, there was a total of 15 filed by our black citizens.
We had three filed by Hispanic citizens and 42 by our white citizens. For a total of six
to two. What was your questions on that? I thought I heard somebody asking a question.
Okay. All right. So this is the same kind of thing. We had a few we had those 46 unsatisfactory
performance complaints filed. This is a breakdown of that. I'll just let you look at that for
a minute. Yeah, some questions about our training. I did provide you with a little training report
that was based on the the actions taken in the complaints that you saw. Those just provided
some information in reference to those specific complaints. But in addition to those, we've
conducted some deescalation training, we have use of force simulator training coming up,
weapons handling skills. We've also had some situations where staff some staff members
may have mistreated another staff member in some sort of harassment situation. And we've
done human relations training, we brought in an outside trainer for that recently. One
of the gentlemen brought up last week about our website involving commendations and complaints.
And I told you we were updating that and we did update that with the help of our PIO and
one of our PIOs and also public affairs staff put together this just changed up things a
little the verbiage is a little bit different. The you can provide the commendations or complaints
in English and Spanish, which you could prior to this, it's just a little bit more. It's
just a little bit cleaner than it was. And one of the things and I'm going to talk about
this in just a few minutes, but there was some concern about being able to address certain
demographics in this complaint form. And are we talking about that just a minute right
now you can't currently do it, but we wanted to get a little feedback from you before we
do that. Also, hopefully you can see this fairly well. I wanted to provide you with
a little bit of insight on how complaints work when somebody makes a complaint, whether
it's through the internet phone, through a letter or any other means to make a complaint.
This is how we make that entry is called blue team. And this is essentially one stop shopping
for everything performance related. And including if you look, you can see that list, we have
external admin investigation. That's how we code that when a citizen calls in to make
a complaint. And then you fill out the information here and then you just go through the screen
and fill out all, all the information that's needed. And this is where we actually can
include the race and some of the other demographics. And I'll look over there to that. Here is
the reporting citizen information. If you look down at the dropdown box, this is, these
are the race categories that we have in our system. So if you want to take a look at that,
if you have any feedback on that, we, we can change things, we can add things, not necessarily
just a race, but apparently we can do it in different ways. So I wanted to show you that
because that's, these are the categories that we are using when we make these, these reports.
We also had some questions about being able to search by address. I just wanted to show
you how this would look. This is an internet based IA pro reporting system. So you can
go in there and you're set up. Your data fields are off to your right and there's different
types of data fields, but including addresses. I mean, you can search it by street name,
by street number, by zip code. And that's really about it. The rest of this stuff doesn't
really have much use. We can potentially add things if, if, if folks are interested about
certain neighborhoods, every neighborhood is assigned to a sort of a grid number that
we can, that we can use. And I'm sure we'd be able to put that in if we needed to. If
you want to search by officer information, this is only about half of the screen. Not
all this information is, is useful is what I'm finding. In fact, not very much of it
is useful, but you know, we have the badge number, the ID number of, of, and the date
of birth. So we know exactly how old the officer, we have the education level. So, but mostly
we're talking about race, gender, and also assignment, what division they work in, whether
it's patrol investigations or sometimes they put in rank. Here's our citizen data. If you
look to your right on the screen, you'll see the citizen information. That's about all
we have right now. What I'm finding out is, is mostly what we're looking at is again,
gender, race, age by date of birth. We can also determine whether or not someone was
arrested during, during the incident. And, but what you see there is about what we have
right now. And I would encourage you, if you have other things you want us to track or
you think as a committee, you think are important, that's something we absolutely entertain and
see if we can get that in there. This is our IAPro software. This is a little, this is,
it's the same, a lot of the same information, but it's, it's not internet based, but it's
very useful, particularly when it comes to use of force tracking. And, you know, spend
some time looking through there. You can run reports on all types of uses of force. We
can figure out whether or not someone is injured, you know, how many injuries we had, whether
it required hospitalization. Of course you can check use of force reports by, by race,
by gender. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of ability there to, to check our use
of force data. Was there any questions on that, on that information?
Did anybody have any questions on the, anything that, Assistant Chief Smith? Yes, Rhonda?
This is really more of a point of order probably for you or Sarah, but will we get these slides
by email or something? I think they'll be on the website. Oh, okay. Okay, good. Is that
correct? Yes, we were also happy to share those with you. Oh, they're on the police
force website. Uh huh. Oh, okay, good. I'll find them. Thank you. Oh, really? I just got
the, I just saw the complaints. My, my bad. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else? So at
the last, hey, I am at the last meeting. I know that we had requested some more information
about the use of force, the 14, um, incidences. And we had asked for maybe a breakdown of
when in the last five years those that have occurred. Um, I know that only three were
sustained, but I think one of the questions was, was, was it an internal investigation?
Was it an external investigation? Um, was there, I know that, um, the attorney was going
to talk and figure out exactly how much information y'all could share legally. Uh, was there any
more information that was going to be passed out for that? Yes, ma'am, that this is what
we prepared. Uh, can you see that report there on your screen? And this is the information
that I felt legally we could release. It doesn't identify the officer involved if he or she
wasn't suspended. This was in our email as well, correct? As far as I know it was, but
I'll defer to Sarah about that. Yes, this was as well. But I did actually go through
and I broke down all 18 cases and I provided a narrative in every case. And maybe I basically
gave some details that I thought were important that you might be interested in. I mean, if
there's more information that we can share, we will. But as Mike said, there's certain
things we can share. Did anybody else have any comments or any
additional requests? Okay. Well, we're, thank you very much, um, assistant chief, um, Smith.
You're going to go into the calls. Um, so we're going to get them queued up now. I just
want you to know that, um, when the calls come in, there is a delay of about three to
five seconds. So, so they're going to queue them up and then yes, Ken. Yes, I'm so sorry.
I got on a tad bit late, um, because I had another meeting that I was on, but are we,
what is the protocol around the calls? They get queued in, we listen, can we ask them
questions? Do they ask us questions? Is there like, uh, like, uh, what we're supposed to
be able to do around engagement? I'm sorry if I missed that.
Okay. So they will, they will either have a question or they'll come on and have a comment
there. They have four minutes. So you have four minutes per call. I'm not sure how many
are queued up or how many will call in, but you can, um, make a comment, um, or, or ask
for additional, you know, questions or what have you during the call, but remember they
have four minutes and remember there'll be a delay. So in, in, you got a three to five
second delay in your calls, but you will be able to say something to them.
Yeah. Chair English, if I can add in, um, so the, yes, the committee members may ask
questions of clarification, um, to those that are calling in. So if there's something you'd
like to, um, ask for further information on or to clarify about what they have said to
the committee, um, the committee members are able to do that after they conclude their
comment. Sarah, if you could, could, um, does our question,
if I was to ask a question or, um, if, uh, any of us were, would it be included in their
four minutes or does time stop for us to ask that question and then their time continue?
So the speaker has up to four minutes and then upon conclusion of their comment, then
the committee members may ask questions for clarification. It does not count as part of
their time. So if you could just hang tight, they're
going to start getting them on the line. Okay. So we have nine calls that they're queuing
up so far and we'll leave the line open in case someone else wants to call in, but so
Hi caller. Hi. Who am I speaking with? Um, my name is Kristen Fox and I'm a part of
aid network Benton. Okay. And, um, yeah, I'm calling about the ad hoc committee and its
role in responding to recent demands to defend the police. Um, I personally believe institutions
other than the police should perform many of the functions currently designated to police.
Uh, this is one of the main demands of the current national movement and I'm concerned
that the use of force committee will function as a way to avoid contending with this demand.
Um, I know I not only want less use of force from police, I want less policing period.
Um, I want to defund the police and instead fund social services and education. Even as
a white woman, I have witnessed racial profiling by the Denton police department firsthand.
Several years ago, I was pulled over by a DPD officer for no apparent reason. He refused
to take my license and registration and instead demanded the license and registration of my
passenger, an indigenous woman who is at work right now and who gave me permission to relay
the story. By forcefully demanding her ID, Denton PD insinuated that she did not belong
in the country she is indigenous to because of her skin color. Ironically, I myself am
the granddaughter of an immigrant and my mother grew up largely outside the U S but of course,
I would never be profiled for harassment. I realized defending the police is a long term
process that many would rather not engage with despite the fact that many that nights
are my point of view. At the very least, I would like consistent and immediate consequences
for use of force such as impact on employment, benefit and pensions. I have watched our country
spend the last eight plus years trying to reform the police with little success. I watched
the city council voted to allocate funds to the facade of the police station rather than
adequately address the material needs of tenants during the pandemic. I believe it's the past
time to divest from policing and invest in community. Thank you.
Thank you, caller. Okay. The next caller was a question. Yes. Hold on, Willie. The next
is Faith. Yes. Hi, Faith. Go ahead. Hi, my name is Faith Sokol and I'm calling today
about the ad hoc committee's potential recommendations and its role in policing in Zutton. So the
second thing was policing demand solutions that focus on the actual prevention of use
of force, not reactions to a vote use of force. We shouldn't have to wait until something
tragic happens for the city to react. And we should now make use of force inconvenient
for officers to use imprudently. This means consequences for use of force or sorry, improper
use of force. I guess I should say concrete impacts on employment, benefits and pensions
and swift consequences instead of drawn out internal reviewing. So having spoken to the
importance of preventing unreasonable use of force in the first place, I'd like to
refer to general order 300 section 2.1 of the police department, you know, general orders.
And this is the duty to intercede. This shows out the duty and responsibilities that officers
have in intervening and reporting other officers' use of unreasonable force. When offering recommendations
for changes to the use of force policy, I ask that specific consequences be outlined
in the event that it is found that a fellow officer fails to report and more urgently
and perhaps more importantly fails to intervene in an imprudent and unreasonable use of force
situation. Thank you. Thank you. Did anyone have anything to say to the caller? Yes. Yes.
I just wanted to say thank you for your input and we're doing the best that we can. Okay.
Thank you. Yes. I hope we can get a chance to respond after each call. We don't have
to wait until the second call. You're still on with the caller. Which one? The second
one. Okay. I think that what needs to be said is that there are many statements from the
first caller and the second caller that are given as though they're factual. And I beg
to differ. I don't think that those are factual statements about what's happening here in
the city. And I think they need to be addressed accordingly. If they're not specific to Denton,
the city of Denton, then they need to be. Right, of course. But you are asking for stories
and the call for feedback, it was specifically stated and I realize it doesn't come from
the committee itself. This comes from, you know, I can't remember the name of the organization,
what's the organization that the mayor himself signed up for. So I understand. But specific
stories were asked for and that's what the first caller provided. But the stories that
not Putin are dealing with the city of Denton. You're only on the second call and I assure
that the first caller's account did happen in Denton. So I wouldn't dismiss their input
or my input because you don't believe that these are relevant to Denton. Right, I don't
want to interrupt but I want us as a committee, like people are being vulnerable, calling
in and sharing their stories that might be traumatic to them and bad memories possibly.
And I want us to like, as a committee, meet people where they are and like believe them
for what they're saying if they say that this happened in Denton, then with Denton PD, then
we have to take them at their word because that's what we ask people to call here to
do. Thank you. And I do want to clarify that the first caller did say that the racial profiling
that she witnessed happened in Denton. Definitely. Don't take that, that just that one point
that I mentioned. Was it factual? And I guess the second caller saying, well, it's just
the way they saw it and I guess you're supporting that, that you if they think it was it happened
that way and that's how they felt and we just should take it for that value or the way they
said it. Okay, I can do that. But I'm going to preface that with it's the way they saw
it. There's no proof to back it up. And I don't think the statement should be made as
though it is if they were factual. But I can't accept the fact that that's how they saw it
and then move on. Well, thank you. And I think also that's her story. So we're here to listen
to their story. And I think there's other stories that are very positive because I've
had very, very positive interactions with the Denton police, but we're here to listen
to her story. And the first caller has a right to tell her story and the second caller. So
I think that's, that's the message that we want to display. So I appreciate the first
caller and the second caller's stories, because that's what we're here to listen to. And Willie,
I agree with you because I've had very positive interactions as well, but others have not.
Thank you, Jamie. I was just going to say that in my opinion, the only space where I
am going to choose to comment is if I have a clarification that I feel like will help
me to better understand how to take the stories that we are hearing and move them towards
some sort of action for this committee. And then I have a comment in regards to the online
comments. There were some direct questions, at least as I read them about the committee
in terms of how it was formed and things like that. And my suggestion is that if we hear
additional questions like those over the audio calls as well, that potentially we could as
a committee draft some sort of FAQ. But I personally have made the decision tonight not to really
ask any questions or add commentary to the stories that we're hearing so that I can honor
and respect what it is that we are taking into. Okay, Camion, Katina, and then Donna.
Yeah, I guess I just wanted to add that as a committee, last time we reviewed some of
the stuff that was just shown to us about folks making complaints and we uplifted some
barriers to folks making complaints in regards to police that we want to address so that
they can have an easier time. And I think that as a committee, if we don't choose to
accept people's stories for how they are, we're putting additional barriers for people
to call in and make their comments about their actual experience around police. So I just
wanted to lift that up. So let me clarify this. We are to hear the calls as they come
in. If we have questions or I'm sorry that was your experience, hopefully everybody's
taking notes if that's something that we want to come back and address at the next meeting.
It is not to challenge people as to what their experiences are because we all have different
experiences and we all relate to our experiences in different manners. So we're going to end
this call and then we're going to go to the next call. And so if we can just do that,
we need to ask them for some clarification or anything like that. But this is not an
attack on if it did or if it didn't that is their experience, that is their truth. Okay.
Thank you, caller. Thank you. Angelica. Hi. Yeah, this is my name is actually Angelica.
Yes, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Okay, not a problem. Thank you for calling. Yeah, absolutely. Um,
so I really just, um, so I have a statement prepared, but I kind of want to address the
conversation that was surrounding, um, the caller that, uh, that talked before me. Um,
and I, I, I do want to say that I agree with Kamiyan that, uh, challenging the callers
does create an additional barrier. Um, I know for me that that created feelings of anxiety,
um, when, um, the phone started ringing. Um, so I just, I really wanted to uplift with
Kamiyan said about that. Um, but I also did not call, um, to display the trauma I've experienced
at the hands of police in a public forum. Um, and I think that the conversation that
just happened, um, kind of hearkens back to actually what I did have to say, which is
that asking this as community of the community without offering support, um, to those who
have been traumatized by policing, um, is part of a larger pattern of behavior from
Denton PD. Um, when, when they invite communities who historically have contentious relationships
with law enforcement to essentially prove that these problems happen in Denton. Um,
and I have personally been part of a meeting like this for Denton PD. Um, and, uh, it,
it really, uh, was, it created another traumatic experience that I had with police. Um, and
I know that it seems the power that he and Denton are committed to believing that our
police force doesn't have the same problems. Other police departments do that. Our police
force is an exception to the rule that the death of Darius Tarver was an outlier and
that we should be thankful that Denton PD is maybe not comprised of the same racist
murders that make up other police departments. Um, but I refuse to be grateful for these
things from a body of people who claim to protect and serve me. Um, I also want to comment
on the fact that the top down nature of the formation and selection of this committee
can only mean that no matter how well intentioned, um, many of the members are, it will only
ever serve to protect the status quo. Um, and that the limitations of the mission and
scope of the committee prevent a conversation about the structural change necessary to truly
serve the residents of Denton. Um, because the ad hoc committee exists and this is, and
y'all are doing the work of reviewing policy. Um, I, I do have some suggestions, um, and
I encourage committee members to ask themselves these questions, um, when making suggestions
to policy changes. Um, so one, how does this policy serve the communities most affected
by policing? Um, two, how does this policy affect the power of police? And three, will
the policy require more funding for police? Um, so that's all that I had to say. Thank
you so much. Thank you. Yes, Katina. Thank you so much. And Helica, um, for calling in
and I just want to add, if I may, um, you know, positive and negative experiences of
the callers. Um, this, this, this forum is not to support or not support the city of
Denton police department. This is a larger conversation and I just want to say this,
not necessarily to you, um, but just to kind of align to what you were saying. This is
not about, I mean, I, I have profound respect for Chief Dixon, but I'm also an African-American
woman with African-American children and we have, um, concerns about police brutality.
And so I know Pam, you were saying something about some of the calls are positive. And
in my mind, um, and I thank you for your comment, but in my mind, it's not about positive or
negative because positive, um, is also accountability pat positive sharing stories and, um, being,
you know, taking, taking them at face value. Positive is the fact that we're having this
civil discourse. Um, it, that positive doesn't just have to be, Oh, I love the Denton PD
and they're the greatest. Like that, that's all subjective, um, because it's not about
whether we love Denton PD or not or not. It's about the bigger conversation of, um, police
excessive force and how our citizens feel. And there are some comments that we've received
online that I'm not necessarily happy about, but it's not, this is not about me. This is
about the citizens. And though there are going to be many who call in who are not happy and
with Denton PD and who also are wanting to speak to the larger conversation of police
brutality. That's not just the city limits. So I just wanted to tagline and affirm what
you're saying. Thank you so much, but also tagline to kind of, um, lay out some things
as we, the committee are listening, um, and, uh, being a, an ear so that we can truly be
a voice for this, for, for our citizens. So thank you. Yes. I stand corrected. Um, and
I will, um, change what I do tonight. I guess what I've heard is that I'm here to listen,
not to respond in a questioning or a, a, a way that says, uh, just question, I guess,
cause I'm, I'm, my question basically was you were talking like those things that you
said are factual and I don't know that they are, but I don't know that they're not. And
so I questioned from that standpoint, but what I've heard from the last five people
is that, no, we're just here to listen and that's it. So I'll do that, but then I'm on
a question. Well, then why am I here on this committee at all? Anybody can sit here and
listen, but I'm going to just do that. I will just listen and then I'll decide what I'm
going to do about what I've heard later on. So, so I guess my next, uh, I will, I do want
to say something to address that is that if it's, if you're looking for facts, um, that
research is done, there's decades worth of that research where you can pinpoint, oh,
the police do this many arrests to black people versus white people police. I think this many
black people versus this many white people are incarcerated. And like that research is
done. What is asked from the community today is to share stories. Um, so, so I just also
wanted to, to make that comment as well. I have a comment. Go ahead, Donna. Um, this
is Donna diamond. Um, I hear you and I'm listening to you as a student, um, at Texas women's
university. Um, this is kind of all new to me. And so the point of our committee is to
listen to the issues of Denton and to hear it. And if there weren't any issues, we probably
wouldn't have this committee in the first place. So we are here and we are listening.
Um, and so I, I fully respect what you have to say and what can can Tina, I believe that's
right or Tina had to say, um, because all of what she's saying was very much true. Um,
but we're just taking it one step out of one step at a time. And we're trying to see what
the issues are at hand so that we can come up with a solution. And I do have to agree.
Some of the comments were kind of straight because, um, we are, some of us are very new
at this and we're just trying to dive into all of these policies and figure out what
to do best. Thank you for your time. Yeah, I just wanted to thank Angelica for, um, their
comments tonight and, um, uplift what they said around, um, folks having or feeling the
need to display their trauma in order to prove that they have had or gone through some issue
in regards to law enforcement. Um, and just wanting to mention that I appreciate you bringing
that up and that as a committee member, I will try to see if there's anything we can
do for the next time that we might have public comment to support people that are sharing
things because not only what you're sharing might be harmful, but some of the people that
have called in tonight have possibly had not a great, uh, engagement with their call here.
So also supporting the people that have called in and I hope that we can figure out a way
to do something to support people the next time. Thank you so much. Thanks, Camille.
Thank you. Is she on? Okay. Cindy? We're waiting for the next caller.
Hi, caller. Hello. My name is Cindy spoon. I'm calling to give comment. Okay. Okay. Um,
I guess I'll start by saying, I wish I had longer than four minutes to engage in this
conversation. I have a lot to say. I'm going to move through it quickly. I want to start
by saying that, um, history really matters. History really matters. And when I walk around
Denton, when I walk around Quaker town park, when I enjoy things like jazz fest, uh, going
to the library, I have to remind myself like black people used to live here. Black people
used to live here and they were violently removed and that history matters. And I think
the history of police coming out of slave patrols actually really matters as well. And
so I'm asking this committee to, to just sit with those histories and those truths and
just hold them as y'all make decisions around what is the appropriate use of force. Um,
I want to also talk about, of course, areas Tarver. I want to ask what reforms y'all
are considering that would have resulted in saving his life. Uh, if this committee is
not advancing an agenda that results in a different outcome for Darius Tarver, I'm not
sure it's what we need. I feel when Darius Tarver was killed by DPD and when Ryan McMillan
was killed by the UNT police, they were both clearly in mental health crisis. And so they
didn't need police right then. They needed help. Ryan McMillan was yelling, shoot me,
shoot me when a UNT officer shot him. So we need to shift our funding priorities to people
that will actually help them. I think we know that so much of policing is about quality
of life issues like homelessness, drug addiction, domestic violence. And so I think knowing that
increasing funding for things like housing and education, rehabilitation programs, health
services, instead of policing and surveillance is what we need to do. I understand this committee
is limited in scope, but I just wanted to say that to get to some specific requests.
Uh, I'd like to see an increase in site and release. I think it's imperative during COVID.
I know someone that has personally died in the Denton County jail before COVID. Now it's
even more dangerous. I saw today that there's 37 positive cases in the County jail. So the
police need to be thinking about that and holding that when they're arresting people
for low level offenses, that it could be a death sentence if you send them to the Denton
County jail right now. And, um, you know, jail it's, it's a proven, it's proven that
jail is a failed way to lower crime and failed way to lower recidivism rates. And I suppose
those are comments for a different committee. If you aren't dealing with the jail, but I
would like to see an increase in site and release. And I hope y'all push that on officers.
I also want to address specifically issues around transparency. I appreciate the presentation
that happened at the beginning of this meeting. And I'd love to ask for some more information.
Um, so for transparency, I'd love to ask questions about the police union contract, the Brady
list and what equipment and gear DPD owns that's intended for crowd control. So I'll
start with the Brady list. The Brady list is for, um, police officers that have lied
under oath or some other misconduct. I'm sure several of the folks on the committee that
have law enforcement backgrounds can explain it better than me, but this is information
that's kept from the public. And I think it should not be. I think both the city police
and the Denton County police, we should know who's on that Brady list, especially when
we're seeing officers arresting people at protest or responding to protest. Yeah. Using
use of force at all. I think one of the things that made the George Floyd murder so horrible
is that we know that that officer had just a long list of misconduct. He should have
maybe not even been on the streets at all. So I'm asking if in this new, like attempts
to be more transparent and build trust with the community to release officer names on
the Brady list, if there's any in Denton County, we deserve to know. Um, as far as the contracts
of police union contracts, um, I know that police unions have kind of unparalleled power
to shield police from accountability and prevent reform. I know some of you on this committee
represent the police union. I'm not sure that's appropriate. I don't know any of you personally,
so it's obviously not personal, but just with the amount of power you already have over
police policies in Denton, I'm not sure it's appropriate for you to be sitting on the committee.
Um, I tried to find the police union contract. I couldn't find it. Doesn't mean it's not
there. I found an old one signed by chief Howell from 2015 to 2019. Excuse me. Your
four minutes is up, ma'am. Okay. Okay. Does anybody have on the committee want to have,
I think chief Dixon wants to respond to that. I'd like to let it continue. Well, she has
four minutes and she's over her time. You can ask me what I saw in the contract. What
did you see in the contract? Yeah. So, uh, so, uh, so again, this is a contract that
ends in 2019. I assume it hasn't changed that much in 2020, but article five section one
means there's a 180 day rule that a police officer can be held accountable for some kind
of misconduct or offense or complaint. I would like to see that taken out. I don't know why
we would limit ourselves to like regarding use of force. Why, how long someone can be
held accountable for it's 180 days. That's an article five, section one and section two
of that same article is that there's a five day maximum suspension. And I also don't know
if that's appropriate. A five day maximum. If somebody maybe had to pull a gun or a taser
or something, maybe both of those are not long enough. Uh, article eight, section three
mentions that officers get paid at least three hours when they have to go to court and like
give testimony that they get paid to do that and they're off. So I'm not sure if that's
appropriate either. I would love to ask that the public is allowed to be involved more
in those contract negotiations. And the very last thing I will say, and I will give my
time is about the equipment and gear that Denton police own. I'd love to know for crowd
control purposes. Do y'all have tanks? Do y'all have pure gas? Do y'all have Elrad?
Like what are we, should we expect to see when we are protesting? Those are the ends
of my comments. Thank you. Chief Dixon. Good evening committee. I'll try to hit all those
points. Hopefully I don't miss any. There is no five day maximum for any discipline
for me to give out the 180 day rule. We went over that last week with Mr. Cronin explained
to you that law that's not in the contract only that's a state law. We actually have
up to 240 days to discover it, 180 to do it. So we actually have 420, which is a lot longer
than 180 that's in statute. That provision of the contract actually gives us a lot longer
time than we would if we didn't have it. We don't have any tanks. And what you can expect
to see at the protest is what you've seen at the protest thus far. You've seen police
officers out there in their regular patrol uniform walking about keeping you safe. They've
been out talking to people, having dialogue with people. They've been very approachable
to this point. We haven't had to use any riot control gear. We do have riot control gear
if we need it, but it's only going to be brought out if we need it. But there's going to be
a reason why we would bring that out. I'm trying to remember all the questions. Brady
list. The Brady list is not controlled by the police department or the sheriff is controlled
by the district attorney's office. Oftentimes as a chief of police, I don't even know who's
on the Brady list and it's not out there to be displayed. That's at the discretion of
the district attorney for each county in this state. So the police department, the sheriff's
office has nothing to do with that whatsoever. Did I get all the points for all the questions?
Can I ask a question, Cheryl? What is the riot control gear if you had to use it, chief?
We have helmets for protection. We have riot control sticks and we have shield, fiberglass
shields. If we need it, we would have less lethal munitions. We would have controlled
gas, chemical munitions.
I just wanted to thank the caller for participating and I do want to just offer a point of clarification
that this is a city organized committee. So you made some very valid points about the
county and about, as chief Dixon pointed out, the district attorney. This committee does
not have any purview in those areas, but I appreciate those comments.
Yeah, that makes sense to me. It's hard to ignore the relationship of the people that
the Denton police arrest end up in Denton County Jail.
Lillian.
Yeah, I was just going to say that very thing. So she talked about the site and release.
Chief Dixon, do you have anything to say about that?
Absolutely. We went into a modified posture to the beginning of the pandemic and we're
still in it. We're not arresting for classy offenses if we can help it. We're not arresting
for low level marijuana possession as well. If there's not a mitigating circumstance around
it, we can't release someone to a responsible party. There's a violent offense associated
with it. We still have to make those arrests. We can't leave people on the street. And we're
working towards, I have been one of the biggest proponents of doing site and release since
I got here. I've talked to a number of different organizations and we're working towards that
goal. But that's not a singular goal. It's not something that I as the chief can just
summarily say we're going to do it and we go off. There's a lot of moving parts to it
and we're working for that process now. So I'm hopeful that we'll get it.
I really appreciate that response. And I do want to say that some people are slipping
through the cracks because I have recently connected with a woman that's in Denton County
Jail on a PI and she's been there for over 20 something days and she's contracted COVID
there. I called her lawyer today. I'm waiting for them to get back to me. But I'm just like,
I agree with you and I appreciate you pushing for site and release. And also that is also
true. And they were arrested by city police.
I wanted to thank Cindy for her comments and I wanted to just uplift all of the things
that she mentioned. I think one of the things that we're finding is citizens of Denton and
people that live in Denton don't know which things are county and which things are DA
and which things are DPD. And I think that that's something that we should maybe talk
about making more clear like the transparency around that so that people understand where
they're trying to report, who they're trying to report to, where they need to seek information
from. And I heard Chief Dixon mentioned that around the riot gear there's less lethal things
that you can use, but you didn't explain exactly what those were. And then after that you said
tear gas. So it's just wondering like, what is less lethal? Exactly what you're talking
about and then you mentioned tear gas. So it's whatever was right before that.
Absolutely. Less lethal munitions are munitions that are usually made out of foam or rubber
plastic that are not meant to cause serious injury, but to cause pain, pain compliance.
But we have not used anything to this point. We don't plan on using anything. I think it
speaks to the volume of our city on how we have conducted ourselves, both the police
department and those that out having their voices being heard.
And would you mind clarifying when the next police union contract will be negotiated,
the timeline?
Time in 22, 23, is it 22 or 23? I think we saw that last week, I believe it's 2022.
I just held up my finger because it's every three years. Current contract actually expires
in 2022. September 30th of 2022. And I think the city manager probably anticipates going
back to the table in the probably spring or summer of 2022.
Okay. Rhonda?
I have a question for the chief about the less lethal forms of ammunition, rubber bullets,
et cetera. Do you, Chief Dixon, have to give permission for that to be used or is that
left up to the officer?
No, that comes from me.
Thank you.
Thank you. Caller. Thank you. We have another caller. Okay. Hi. Hi. You're on. This is
Nadalia Sauceda. She, her, hers. I serve on two executive boards here in Denton that focus
work on the queer and trans community. I'm also a psychologist at UNT and a mental health
advocate. I, there has been a lot of great comments and I may have questions that show
up in my statement, so please disregard if they've already been addressed. There's been
some great comments so far. I do want to express appreciation to the committee. I see a lot
of organizations and advocates that I've worked alongside with and have appreciated the free
labor that they have done for, this is an already very taxed group of folks and I can
only imagine. I have a quick question for that. I was wondering if the committee themselves
have an opportunity to disclose their incidences as well. I agree this is very traumatic to
be telling folks their experiences if they do have incidences, but I've, I've wondered
if at any point the committee would be able to tell their, their stories as well. My main
concern though as a mental, as a mental health provider, I believe my concerns for the Denton
PD grew after the killing of Darius Tarver and I know that we're all learning in regards
to policy and procedure, the role of police and local government and this has been quite
a process to, to try to understand everyone's role and everyone's part in being able to
be better and do better. I will say in my nearly 15 years of clinical training and practice
I, I, no one's ever told me why I have been encouraged to contact local police in the event
of a mental health or medical crisis or distress. I, since Darius Tarver and, and even before
I would, I would say my own clients, students and other mental health professionals have
expressed hesitancy to contact the police when they're concerned for themselves or a
loved one in regards to suicide or a, a psychotic incident. I've had my own clients reject recommendations
for hospitalization triage because of my, regardless of my current agency's protocol
for police transport. I was reasonably aware that there's plans for a mental health division
and I've, I'm, I don't know what the ad hoc committee involvement is with that or any
input from mental health professionals and, and the disability community in regards to,
to the use of force with those populations. But I, I'm, it has evoked a lot of concern
for me, the further criminalization of folks who live with mental health issues. I think
the current approach just, just confirms this disconnect with the community and it feels
very reactionary and I'm, I'm still trying to understand the overlap of my profession
with police. And I'm, I'm kind of doing my own searching on that, but still don't understand
why we must do a, create a division to detract from further community support and funding
from other institutions. I've wondered how this impacts MHMR mobile crisis unit. And
I'm wondering if the committee has, has reviewed or plans to review the Darius Harbor case
and use of force during medical and mental health distress have been my main concerns.
So that's what I wanted to say. And some of, some of the things I've been hearing from
my community.
Okay. Does anybody want to respond? Yes, Travis. Okay. So I just want to kind of add a comment
to that. So as a police officer, it, we, I'm in the community for the community, you know,
we overlooked the fact that when you are in an active situation and someone may have a
weapon or whatnot, they don't come out with a sign that says, I'm experiencing a mental
health crisis. So that's kind of a situation that you put in as an officer. You know, I
don't know that this person may be suffering some kind of crisis. I don't know that. And
the moment of the active situation as an officer, you have to address that immediate situation.
And I think a lot of times we overlook that it doesn't, it doesn't come out until after
the situation has been resolved, then we may find out, Oh, the person may have, you know,
had some kind of mental situations they were going through some kind of mental crisis.
So, you know, it's kind of a double edged sword, you know, at the same time. And a lot
of times, often the community is the one that calls the police out because someone is experiencing
some kind of crisis. So we have to also look on that side as far as, you know, what is
it that you want the police to do? How do you want the police to respond? Myself personally,
I've responded to several, several people experiencing some kind of mental crisis. And
oftentimes, MHMR has rejected to come out and help the person. And then the situation
may become more, you know, the, the person may become more agitated and the situation
may increase and you know, whatever the case is, but you know, as a police officer, I don't,
I don't know that, I don't know that this person is necessarily experiencing some kind
of crisis. So I just want everyone to, you know, consider that, you know, as we deal
with our, you know, go through our daily job functions.
So it sounds like, sounds like we need different resources other than the police. That's what
I'm hearing.
Yeah. I was, I was going to uplift that. Thank you for your comments. And Adelia, I was going
to uplift that what you're sharing, Travis, to me, when a caller is calling in and asking
about how we can better serve folks with mental health issues, knowing that police are responding
and not being able to tell if someone's in a mental health crisis or what they, how they
might need to respond is an issue that we should be addressing and maybe they need support
or maybe they might not should be the ones that are responding to some of those. I also
wanted to uplift your comments around use of force policies that we're reviewing with
folks that might have disabilities or mental health issues. The committee has questions
around how we serve those populations, but I can share with you from what I remember
and someone please correct me on the committee if I'm incorrect, that the use of force policies
that we were shown by during this committee in a presentation didn't break it down by
anything around individualized care. Like it's not broken down by what that person is experiencing.
It's just like around if an officer feels as if use of force is needed, they can utilize
it based on certain criteria. It's not broken down around mental health or people with disabilities
or age or race or anything like that as far as I can remember.
Pam? Well, and I wanted to say too, when the call
comes in, we work with the police department because I'm with the mental health and so
we work with Chief Dixon and his officers and they do know when it's the mental health
call. So unless they're called directly to the scene and they don't know that it's a
mental health call or somebody with autism. So I think that's the difference that there
may be going to a scene and we're not involved and that can happen. And many times obviously
possibly it does happen. And then they're blind when they go in. But when we go together
to the scene, they know that it's obviously a mental health situation. So it's handled
a little differently. Go ahead. Thank you, Cheryl.
Katina? Thank you so much, caller, for sharing. And
I was just thinking through some things because I think that what we don't discuss often times
is civilians and our responsibility and how we engage and how we call the police. And
I brought this issue up before because we talked, when we had the training last week,
I can't remember what the name of the training was, but where we basically did the assimilation.
Oh, the use of force. Yes. And so one of the things that I've heard
repeatedly is oftentimes there's miscommunication between the caller and the 911 person and
then what happens in dispatch. And police officers rely heavily on, I mean, they have
to rely on information being accurate. And I think that we have such a fear mongering
culture for one. People are prone to call the police on black people or anything that
they think as other. And I think that we need to increase accountability for people just
calling the police for everything because the police aren't here to protect and serve,
but they are not our personal, you know, little pocket badges that we can just whip out to
call when we are agitated or when we're angry or when the wrong person is in our neighborhood.
I think that, you know, really equipping civilians on how to call 911 and offering training across
the board, because as officer Nicholas was saying, like, they don't know sometimes and
they're going off of information that they got, and they're trying to rely on that, but
they're walking into a dangerous situation, which I can totally, potentially dangerous
situation which I can totally identify with or respect. And the thing is, is if a mental
health issue is happening, people need to be responsible to say that and to, you know,
express that. And the 911 operators need to be, you know, held accountable for sharing
that information. But civilians need to have, be responsible. If they're weaponizing the
police, if they're, you know, leaving out information, if it's based on fear mongering,
they need to be flagged, they need to be fined, and if it gets to that point, they need to
go to jail. Like, it needs to be put back on civilians who think that it's okay to weaponize
the police against other people.
Right. And you're right, there is, and we know that there are certain people who are
privileged to empathy from others. And I wonder where this education and training and citizens,
you know, the ability to destigmatize mental health and everything else to help us help
each other. I don't know if that belongs under the umbrella of policing. Chief Dixon, that
would be something different.
Yeah, I want to make sure that that I'm being very clear. There's not a police officer on
this call, listening or watching that wants to be the primary responder to mental health
crisis. There's not. That's a fact. If I could stop my police officers from going to calls
with mental illness right now, I would stop it. The sad fact is there is no other option
in this moment. So the creation of this mental health unit to pair up a licensed social worker
with a police officer is by far the best option we have on the table as we sit here today.
They can go to mental health training together. The counselors are obviously going to have
more experience in dealing with mental illness than our police officers are. But my hope
and the hope of every police officer out there across this country is that we do get to the
place one day where cops are not the answer for everything. We work with fans, people
every day at MHMR, but that's not the answer. It's not always the easy answer. There's too
many options out there when police officers go out to these calls where people can decline
to come out to help the person in crisis. And then that's why the county jail ends up
being the number one mental health consumer in Dayton County. Because if it's up to the
police officer to let somebody go that's in crisis or take them to jail to keep them safe,
they're taking them to jail. That, again, is just a sad fact. Until we collectively
as a society put more emphasis on mental health treatment, bed space, facilities, we're going
to be here where we're at right now. So we've got to work together. And nobody here is against
working with whatever we have to do to make sure everyone goes home safe.
Jamie?
I just wondered if Pam, you might be willing I hate to put you on the spot, but to speak
about the situations where MHMR is called first and often relies on the police to go
into homes in situations where they might feel unsafe without support. Because I feel
like that's part of this issue that hasn't been discussed.
And I think, you know, that was part of the issue that I was sitting here thinking because
many times we can't go in without the police because we don't know the person. It's a very
unsafe situation. We don't know that if there's weapons in the home and we can't go in without
the police. So it's very difficult for us because to go in, the person is actively psychotic
or we don't know what else is, you know, what the situation will bring for our clinicians
and we have to have the police on scene. So many times, you know, Chief Dixon's police
officers, I don't know how many times have saved our staff, literally, and they have
to be on scene. And then we will call for mental health deputies. Well, there are times
that the mental health deputies don't think that the person meets the criteria for apprehension
and detention and they won't come out. So Chief Dixon's police officers are the only
people there that can help us in that situation. So that's another glitch that happens and
Chief Dixon can attest to that many times. And that person, again, as Chief Dixon said,
they can either go to jail or they can remain in the situation because they have to be either
a danger to themselves or others to meet the criteria to have their civil liberties taken
away. And the mental health professional cannot take their civil liberties away. A police
officer or mental health deputy is the only person that can do that. We are not qualified
to do that. Not in Texas, correct. Right. And other states can. Right, but not here.
There's a lot that happens before that phone call that our officers do and that don't have
to take people's rights away. And you can hear Pam mention, like, that is the length
that we have to get to. And those are extreme points, of course. And there's options way
before. So many points in that story of that person's journey that we could be funding.
So I'm still wrapping my brain around this concept and hope you all could follow me on
that same train of thinking of, like, is this the only option? What other options along
the way to be helping our community? So I appreciate y'all joining me on that line.
All right. Thank you, caller. I want to let you guys know we have people who have been
on call up to 40 minutes. So I know everybody wants to kind of jump in, but we got to kind
of move this along so everybody has an opportunity to get their call in and make their comment.
Okay. Good evening, caller. Hi there. Hi. Is this Michael? It is. Hi, Michael. You have
a comment you want to make? Yes. Yes, I do. I'm going to go quick. I want to introduce
myself. I am Michael Mutz. I'm 25 years old. I have an associate's in criminal justice,
a bachelor's in psychology and communications, and I'm currently working on a doctorate of
education. I find myself to be a little bit unique because I'm a journalist, but I'm also
a behavior therapist. I work as a behavior technician and I've also worked at two mental
hospitals in the DFW community, including Mayhill Hospital here in Denton. I'm a little
bit different than the other callers that have spoken in the sense that I do believe
that there are some issues with the police department, but I don't think defunding the
police is the option. I think that there needs to be more training and there needs to be
more education along lines of information. I'll tell you this. In the last six months,
I was assaulted by my roommate. I was punched in the face. And in order to get out of my
apartment lease, I needed a copy of the police report to send to them. It took the police
department and the records department 14 days to get back to me after I was assaulted. Now
during those 14 days, after the 14 days were over, it was 10 business days, but 14 with
the two weekends. After the end of that period, I got a letter from the city stating that
they were withholding the records because my roommate has the right to keep his information
private. And they're sending a letter to the office of the attorney general about getting
a basically determination on whether or not they can release that information to me. I
think that it's important also to note that I called the police department to get information
about the use of force before this meeting and was told to file a public information
act request to get certain information, which again would take up to 10 business days. So
I think that it's important to note that it's hard to get information. If you were to go
to the Denton training police department or the Denton police department training website
this last week that is on the website, five out of five times I tried to pull up the website,
it was down. And I have screenshots of those if you guys would like to see them later.
I think that, you know, we can talk about politics all day long, we can talk about things
that are happening across the country. But in reality, what we need is information from
the police department at the local level. And we're struggling to get that information
because it takes weeks for the records department to get back to us. And then they're trying
to exempt information. It takes having to fight and advocate for that information. I've
seen more information tonight in this meeting than I can get as a community citizen about
our police department, about the, you know, district attorney's office. I couldn't personally
file a request for a protective order because I couldn't get the police department to give
me the record that I needed in order to file that report. That is absolutely astounding.
And when we're talking about use of force, let's talk about escalations. When it takes
the police department to two hours to respond to a domestic violence call, when it takes,
you know, my roommate, I have a recording of my roommate telling me to kill myself and
the police department can't arrest him. And then, you know, you come into a situation
where there's a fight and the use of force is escalated. Well, that's happening because
we can't get information because we can't file for protective orders because they won't
release the information to us. We can't get this information to file the appropriate paperwork.
It's a catch 22. And then the police officer comes into a heightened situation because
they refuse to let us start it at the basic level. It escalates so far that it turns into
a fight. You know, and I'll say this too, the mental health side of things isn't doing
much better either. I worked at Mayhill hospital and they, there is no mental health going
on there. I filed a report with the Department of Health and Human Services against them
for abusing their patients. There was a time where I saw a patient who basically asked
water and they were told, the patient was told he couldn't have water until after dinner.
That was six hours that the patient couldn't have water.
Michael, Michael, you've gone over your four minutes. Okay. Anyone have any questions?
Yes, Katrina. I've worked in healthcare administration for about 20 years and I just want to affirm
the things that you're saying. And thank you so much for sharing everything that you shared.
It really meant a lot and I'm a healthcare advocate, and so I'm with you 100%.
Thank you. Thank you.
Camion. Yes, I wanted to say thank you so much, Michael,
for sharing this information. I am a social worker with a clinical license and I've worked
at University of Behavioral Health. So I completely understand a lot of the things that you mentioned.
I did want to say thank you so much for sharing the information around trying to get a protective
order and uplifting things that might be domestic in nature in which police are called out to
and how sometimes those situations don't always support the person that might be being harmed.
Thank you. Thank you.
Looks like Jamie has a question. Hi, Jamie.
If we've already switched to the other caller, it's not relevant, but I was going to ask
him if there was information he was seeking in his public information request that would
be relevant. We've already gone to the next caller. I'm
sorry. Hi, is Samuel?
Yes. Hi.
Hi, may I begin? Yes.
Hi, my name is Samuel Escalante. My zip code is 76209. I'm a teacher and I'm also a published
researcher on issues of race. First, I want to thank the committee for this
work and their labor. I do appreciate their time and everything they're putting into it
and the fact that these are really hard conversations. So I may bring up stuff that makes some folks
uncomfortable and this is kind of the point. So I appreciate folks being open, vulnerable
from all sides and giving us the time and consideration it needs.
Okay, but before you get started, Samuel, let me let you know you have four minutes,
right? Yes, I have a prepared statement.
So first I want to share how many residents I've talked to were scared this committee
might misuse or misinterpret people's stories. And I believe we've kind of seen a misstep
by hearing someone counter one of the caller's stories by saying that they had a positive
encounter with the NPD. And personally, I feel that the fact that this happened and
that the slight thinking could be central to how the committee uses these stories should
be kind of cause for alarm, something that the committee investigates after this. Essentially,
if members of the committee believe that it's one person's word over another, then we're
not going to see the change we need. The reason we're still in this mess is because often
people who call the shots are just going off of positive stories. But I don't think that
this committee needs stories, positive or negative, to make the change we need. I think
often calling for stories is a tactic that allows folks to be legitimized, people who
have been negatively impacted by police. So I just really hope that the committee really
carefully considers what stories really mean in this and don't use them to delegitimize
the folks who are asking for need. And then next, I asked that the committee asked themselves
these two questions anytime they consider a recommendation. The first is, does this
recommendation increase or maintain the scope, power, resources, or functions of the police?
And I think the answer should be no. And the second question is, was this recommendation
created by, for and with residents who are most impacted historically by policing? And
the answer should be less. So over the coming weeks, we're going to hear from police and
city council that they're responding to the moment. But I believe a lot of things that
are coming up missed the point of Black Lives Matter movement. For example, as the police
have taken up over a quarter of the general fund over the past 10 years, we've seen the
increase of scope of the department in the city, while a lot of folks who are marginalized
still live without the resources they need. And we've seen that, especially with the COVID
crisis. So these problems won't be solved by more policing, no matter how much more
responsive, friendly, or seemingly transparent it may be. And I think that the chief agrees.
Like he said, there should be a world where not everything is responded to by policing.
So I appreciate that. But at the end of the day, police use the tools that they have,
which are violence and arrests. So like an example is the new mental health unit. While
this is better than what we have right now, it still increases the scope of police by
bringing mental health resources under the police's control. And so while there are going
to be violent situations that call for more than just the mental health professional, just
because this is the best we can do right now, it doesn't mean that it's the only solution
we have for the future. So I agree with the chief that we need to have more services and
resources than what we currently have. And so my point is that the black guys movement
is way more than simply reviewing these policies and asking the city and police to tighten
them up. This movement is about bringing power to people and paving a future in which all
people's needs are met. And currently we don't meet those. And a budget is a city small document.
And essentially our budget tells that night that we don't care necessarily about the most
in need and would rather use police for most of these problems. And additionally, we even
approved a $60 million bond last year and millions more for the gun range. And so while
your work on the committee is not directly tied to funding, I believe that the work you're
doing here with regard to use of force is one of many parallel steps, 20 months more
just a future for Denton. So it can only not only achieve the goals that you've set out
to achieve, but also enable more of the demands of the black eyes matter movement to come
to fruition. So I hope that you will recommend a community oversight board and any other recommendations
that decrease the scope of policing in Denton and empower those who have gone underserved
by local governments for too long. The people need to know that your recommendations will
make it undesirable for any police officer to even come near a violation of use of force.
If we don't strengthen the mechanisms for accountability and give the power to the people,
we will maintain the status quo. We're asking for healing and justice. We're asking more
than lift service. So I hope you take seriously if things like you are, and I know that these
are going to be a really difficult conversation. So thank you for the work you're doing, but
we can't just maintain the status quo. We can't just do things like what we've done.
Reform is only the goal. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you.
We should probably give the callers like a 20 second heads up so they can wrap up their
statements. That's fine. Hello. Hi, Jennifer. Hi, Cheryl. My name is Janay to give my name
and all that. Yes. Okay. Yes. Jennifer Lane, Denton, Texas 76205. Okay. Yeah. I've been
following as much as I can while attending another event, but I wanted to just sort of
point out that I'm 65 years old white woman, grown up in the suburbs in Denton for 13 years.
And I don't have the feeling towards seeing police cars that probably most of my demographics
is writing to you about. I don't like seeing them. I don't feel comfortable seeing them.
I've had lots of experiences, both plus and minus with police, very good experiences,
particularly in organizing protests and events like this. And also when I was least comfortable,
I chose to move toward the police in terms of serving on a faculty committee that was
involved with the police. This was when I was a cyclist and had had some bad experiences
with the police along with other cyclists at UNT, nothing truly terrible, but enough.
And what I also have experienced is uncomfortable experiences as I've gotten involved with Denton
politics, particularly involving the police union. And whereas I'm a union member myself,
and I have been for over 40 years, I really respect them and believe in unions. And I'm
sad to see that they have declined because they are very good gathering agents for races
that have a lot in common and enable people to collect a bargain and all sorts of other
important steps. I have found myself to be disturbed by the police union before recent
events actually, that there's a kind of a stirring up of political behavior on the part
of, and I see this not just with the police union, I've seen it with other agencies related
to utilities and other functions, with a city where sort of surrogates for them will create
drama and stir up the public. And for the first time recently, I spoke out about it
because it was in regards to the formation of this very committee that the union stirred
up a great deal of commentary under the idea that just because people were discussing defunding
the police, that somehow this meant that this committee was, you know, the mayor has created
it and yet and so on and so on. And so I went on to the page and I said, you know, if this
was just a random individual kind of stirring up a mess, I could sort of ignore it, but
this is the police union. And the reason I responded to it as I did was because a couple
of years ago when one of the city council members was looking to sort of trade off one
expense for one race and, you know, some sort of tinkering just with the finances of compensation,
the same sort of crazy stirring up of supporters took place. And it was really in the public's
disinterest to have had that happen. And then, so I wanted to bring that out, that as a union
member, and particularly in recent years, I'm not a performing artist, so the unions
that have represented the orchestras that have been treated so badly in opera companies,
so badly in recent years by their 30 seconds, Jennifer, that, you know, I have seen how
the unions have reached out to the wider public to, to get Garner support, but to do it in
a softer manner to, I'd like to see that what's going on here and what people are trying to
express is taken seriously and that the police themselves ask their unions are quiet down
and not react to every step that's made by the public to, to associate a new relationship
with police.
>> Thank you, Jennifer. Your time is up, Jennifer.
>> Okay.
>> Does anyone have any questions for Jennifer? Yancy? Oh, okay. Thank you, Jennifer.
>> Thank you.
>> We have another caller coming in.
>> Yes, hello?
>> Hi, Sam?
>> Yeah, this is Sam. How are you doing? Good. You have four minutes.
>> Okay. Yeah, thank you. Remind on this committee, my name is Sam Alphonse. As far as Denton
Police Department, I don't have a good experience with them. I've been racially profiled. I
had my car stolen and my dump truck stolen in Denton. I had been attacked in Denton.
And like I said, I don't have a whole lot of good things to say. I mean, it's, to get
their police report in Denton is very hard, you know, and to get them to investigate anything
is almost next to impossible. And the thing that happened there is tarvers never happened
again. The people of Denton had to pressure the mayor and the police chief to release the
tape. It wasn't until public pressure that they released the tape. The committee is a
good idea, but the committees should be independent from the police department because you cannot
have a committee that you have the chief and the mayor as a committee to go after the police
misconduct. And the police officer that murdered that boy was back on the force the next day.
That should never happen. And most other states that would not have happened, they would have
been suspended with pay. The people of Denton and other states United States always have
and have issues with police misconduct because a lot of police do take advantage of the point
that they have immunity when they break the laws and write the laws. I had a friend of
mine recently this month got a guy trying to rape in our apartment in Denton and they
did the bare minimum. And she's still currently trying to fight to get a police report. You
know, I've known other individuals with the women that violent crimes has happened to
them in Denton and the police have been very reluctant to help them. So I mean, you don't
want to get oversight, the committee would have to be independent on the police department
and have other experts to help. But to have the chief and the mayor and those same people
that try to stop the tape from a tarver, I don't see how there's going to be any progress
in that matter. It's going to be very extremely difficult. You know, and it needs to stop.
It's no way safe for any citizen or even a college student to be on campus that to worry
about them being attacked or abused by police. We have cases of that now in Denton. Students,
our future have to worry about their safety or being attacked or even murdered to try
to go to school to get the edge case to do better. I mean, it's it's sickening and it's
kind of frightening. You got to tell your kids, you know, you got to go to college now,
but you also got to watch police and capital cities because, you know, bad things can happen
to you. This is what we have to tell our kids. You know, it's very sad and it's very heartbreaking,
you know, and Denton needs to have a better mental health for the people that's mental
health. They need to work together with the police department because it's like Chief
Dixon did say they're not social workers, but they need to be a better way to communicate
with the police and management when they go out on the call because they don't know what
they're getting. But as soon as they identify the person, they should be able to have somebody
from the MSU to get somebody from the police to volunteer or whatever. And then that way
it won't cost the city a dime. That way they know what it was dealing with. And that would
stop a lot of the excessive force and they know how to keep the mental health people
a little different from the regular people. Okay. You have 18 seconds, Sam. They might
not be on their meds and I don't care. That's it. Okay. Thank you. Did anyone have any questions
for Sam? Yes, Kamya. Sam, thank you for your comments. You mentioned that you had things
stolen and had been attacked and or threatened. Were those by DPD or were those cases in which
you were trying to find police reports? Well, cases I've been trying to find police reports
and being stolen. You know, and the identity that that's on file, my dump trailer stolen
and my cars got stolen while I was at work at the time. And I was profiled. I was, I'm
a black business owner. I'm disabled legally blind. It happened last year, January. So
like I said, I've had negative experiences. I mean, not very helpful, you know. Okay.
Thank you so much. I just wanted to clarify that. I think Lilian might have had a question.
I was just going to say, Mr. Sam, you mentioned that there were some women that, you know,
they didn't get the support or the help that, you know, that they might have needed. I mean,
I know, I mean, I'm not trying to, you know, put a plug in, but I know that there's several
of us that would be willing to be advocates for them if any of them are willing to talk
to any of us and see if there's something that they can know. I think the hardest thing
is trying to bridge the gap between, you know, the people that sit on this committee and
the people out there in the community. But if you, if you know who they are and they
would be willing to share, you know, my name is right on the screen, you know, let me know.
What's your name again, man? Lilian Prado Carrillo. Okay. Okay. Yeah, just, you know,
we want to, we want to bridge that gap for whatever reason. And so if we can serve. Yeah,
this needs to stop. I mean, everything from carjacking, I mean, and they couldn't give
help and friends and family, you hear me? That's not bad to God. So like you said, that
gap is very hard to bridge because people are kind of like reluctant to trust them.
And especially if they've been to a situation that is traumatic, you know, and they're going
for people to help and you can't get no help. Katina. Oh, okay. All right. Well, thank you
for calling. No problem. Hi, caller. Is this Jane? Yes. Hi, Jane. Hi, I'm Jane Piperlant.
I live at 1205, North Austin. I wanted to address some things I've heard tonight and
maybe get some suggestions. And I do have a couple of questions that they can be asked
after three. Um, I first want to say, I appreciate the way Chief Gibson handled the, um, protests
that he sent to the police by the businesses to protect the businesses rather than trying
to intimidate or control the protesters. I am curious who called out the troopers the
first night. Um, I do appreciate when they followed the protesters back in a few nights
later that he told them to go away. Um, but I think he's done a great job on that. Um,
the officer that said that MHMR has refused to come out on calls, that may be possible.
My experience with MHMR is that they go above and beyond anything I ask. And even when it's
unreasonable things, they respond. Um, um, one of the problems I have found since somebody
talked about training citizens on how to make calls, there was a time when you could call
the non-emergency number and get an officer, you know, I mean, the dispatcher might say,
what's this about? So she knew who to channel it to, but it's almost impossible to get past
the dispatcher nowadays. And my attitude is if I wanted to talk to you, I would call 911.
I want to talk to an officer because I want to discuss this situation. I want to know
how to respond, you know, what would happen in this situation, how they would respond,
you know, is this worth a police call? And, um, you know, so I think having a non-emergency
officer on duty all the time to be able to talk to people, to discern, you know, what,
you know, if it's not a police situation, be able to refer them to, you know, a nonprofit
or whoever they need to talk to. And, um, because I mean, like one time I called because
I saw a homeless man asleep. Okay. And it was cold. And, uh, I wanted to know, you know,
I wanted the welfare check on the guy, but I wanted to know that if he wasn't causing
trouble or intoxicated or something that they would offer him a ride to the shelter, well,
the dispatcher goes, well, we're not a taxi service. And so I'm trying to get past her
to an officer and he mimics that exact same line. So, you know, there was talking going
on there and really, I think some of your dispatchers are a little bit pushy. So, but,
but I think the non-emergency number and people knowing that that exists, that they can talk
to an officer, uh, would be a, a great, great resource. Um, also, I know that during the,
when we got COVID money, that a couple of nonprofits said that they wanted an after
hour image in our counselor. Um, do we know if that money has gotten used for that or
if anybody has applied for that? Um, I, I know that there's people on that committee
who were all for that. And I think an after hour counselor would be, um, a good thing
to have that can be called, you know, by people who, who maybe don't want the police involved,
but do you need somebody to respond? Okay, Jane, you have about 30 seconds left. I'm
done. Okay. Does anyone have any questions for Jane? I'd like to address the officer
on the non-emergency line if we have a minute. Yes. So, Jane, when the COVID pandemic started
up, we started a full time teleserve officer position. We have two officers, at least two
officers in there 24 hours a day. They do nothing but take reports over the phone. So
you do get a live police officer now. All you have to do is ask for the teleserve officer
and they'll transfer you to them. If you don't get them directly. What's it called? Teleserve.
Teleserve. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Also, I wanted to ask you who called the troopers
out that first night. So the troopers were taking care of I-35? Their state agencies?
No, no, no. The first night of the protest, the ones that lined up and kind of shoved
everybody down, down Hickory Street. Yeah, I was going to finish what I was saying. They
were working. Oh, I'm sorry. It's okay. They're, they're working on I-35. And when we went
down to the square to close it down, they came down there behind us. So they weren't,
the majority of people down on the square that night were didn't police officers. There
was probably, I don't know, five or six troopers that were down there. You're talking about
the very first night? Yes. There were more than six troopers out there. They did what's
it called the box formation or something like that? I'm hearing from Chief Smith, there
was probably 10, 10 or 15. Yeah, there were a bunch. So who called them? Oh, so they just,
so you didn't ask for them? They showed up? Yeah, they were here helping us on I-35. They
just came down to the square to help us on the square. Okay. Well, I'm glad you didn't
have them after that because that was a problem. And I, but I, I, I liked the way you handled,
the rest of it. Anybody else? I would like to. Sarah Keitler, do you know if anybody
applied for an after hours MHMR counselor? If you're referring to the CDBG CV funds,
those are still unprogrammed at this time. So we'll be seeking further direction from
council in terms of how to use those funds. Well, I would encourage this committee to,
to recommend that. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much. Anybody else? Yeah, I had a follow
up question to your question. Is it Jane? For Chief Dixon, I, I guess I'm wondering
when does DPD decide when to call those troops in? Like how did you, I heard you said you
needed them on I-35, but you didn't necessarily need them at the square. So was it because
people are on the freeway or like, how do you all decide when that happens? Cause I
think that's kind of what the caller is getting at. Like why were they here and what precipitated
that? Well, we're always planning for the worst, right? We've only got X number of police
officers working in the city at any one time. We've only got a certain number of allocated
positions that we can have out there. So we're going to need support from all of our partner
agencies. They came out to assist us. We're very thankful for that. They worked very well
with us. We didn't have any problems associated with them. We had the one communication gap
on the one night that we're talking about. And that's about it. So we're always going
to be planning ahead. When we're in the moment, it's too late to start trying to plan for
any contingencies. So we're going to continue to just keep everybody safe and allow people
to have their voices heard. Chief Dixon, I think we're talking about two different nights.
Okay. The very first night of the, of the protest, there are about 10 30, a huge group
of troopers came out and made a box formation and pushed people down Hickory street. There
was the night they had the caravan and the troopers followed them in and you told them
to go away. Right. So I'm talking, I'm talking about the very first night. Yeah, I'm clear.
They started out the same place. Okay. Okay. All right. Anybody else? Thank you, caller.
Thank you. Tristan. Okay. Hi, Tristan. Yes. Hi. Thanks for calling in. You have four minutes
and then I'll, and then if the committee has questions afterwards and they'll ask you questions
and I'll try to notify you in the last 30 seconds. Okay. And then start now or when does it start?
Starts right now. Okay. Hello. My name is Tristan cycle. My address is 601 Eagle drive
apartment 101 and I'm an organizer for several local reform organizations, including the
university of our Texas students, responsible drug policy and decriminalize sentence. Today
I'm calling about the ad hoc committee and its role in Vincent policing. I am most concerned
about the lack of discussion in city and county government on the need for scaling back police
priorities, especially regarding nonviolent offenses such as drug use, sex work, and other
crimes that are disproportionately enforced against communities most impacted by policing
in Denton. People in the city and county of Denton are still being arrested and incarcerated
for a wide list of nonviolent misdemeanor and felony crimes, including acts of survival,
such as drug use and trade as well as sex work right now, the increased risk for COVID-19
exposure and the Denton County jail makes nonviolent offenses, a potential death sentence.
There are 37 people in Denton County jail that tested positive for COVID-19 and seven
prison guards have contracted it too. So ending the arrest and incarceration of nonviolent
offenders would significantly help prevent community spread for the pandemic. Also, we
must acknowledge how nonviolent crimes are often used to justify the unwarranted death
of people at the hands of police. For instance, the use of force against the former UNT student
Darius Tarver was immorally justified by police to the implication that they initially thought
he could have been on a substance like PCC, which insinuates that our police do not think
that people experiencing a drug induced crisis are worthy of life. And that is just very
disturbing and dehumanizing trends that we must stand adamantly against. I would like
to see a moratorium on all nonviolent offenses and in an empowered as well as community focused
ad hoc committee that is able to adequately address concerns over wrongful use of force
in our local law enforcement organization. Additionally, the city needs to invest in creating
a separate hotline and service for people experiencing mental health or drug induced
crises, so that police no longer respond to those calls and instead of letting priceless
workers be responsible for diffusing those emergencies. Historically, reform hasn't prevented
or reduced harm to communities, so we must demand solutions to best police resources
and to supporting the community, not the type that further empowers and militarizes police
resources. Thank you all for listening. I yield my time.
Thank you. I have a question. Just for clarification, did you say that you didn't think that, or
maybe I didn't hear it wrong, there should be an arrest or some type of force when someone's
on PCP?
What we're saying is that there should not be a police called out for that. What I'm
suggesting is that rather there should be a separate hotline or service that the city
hopefully would provide that would have crisis workers who are not affiliated with the police
answer and respond to those calls.
On PCP?
On any illegal substance, yes. It doesn't matter the type of illegal substance, whether
it's alcohol or even if it's a legal substance, unless they're in the act of committing another
crime, that's a different story. If you're in the middle of robbing, it doesn't matter
what you're doing. If you're robbing, that's obviously an issue of law enforcement.
Go ahead. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever experienced somebody on PCP?
I've seen people in drug induced crises, if that's what you're asking, yes.
No. The reason I'm saying that is because I've experienced somebody who broke into my
home on PCP. It took nine police officers and paramedics to get him under control. That's
after he was shot twice. Let me understand what you're saying. That's very dear to me
because he tried to kill us.
Yeah, I understand that. To me, in that instance, it is the breaking and entering. It is the
violence that he risked opposing to you guys. That is what should be the crime in that issue.
The fact that they're on PCP, they could have been high on any drug. They could have been
not high on a drug. They just had a mental health crisis. If they're committing another
crime and a commissioning of a crime, that crime has to be investigated and prosecuted
to the fullest extent. What I'm talking about is other people calling who are not committing
any other crime outside of just having a mental health or drug induced crisis. Obviously there'd
be caveats and it's not a black and white issue, of course. What I'm saying is that
there needs to be alternative solutions to calling the police because too many times
somebody calls the police out of concern over a loved one or someone who's either on drugs
or is having a mental health crisis and the response is simply to shoot to kill. I'm sorry,
but I do not think that that in and of itself is an appropriate response to any and all
situations involving a drug induced crisis. Obviously there will be bad situations where
someone's committing another violent crime and the interest in preventing violent crime,
we must do everything possible to prevent that when it actually happens. But we don't
need to generalize and lump up every instance where someone's having a drug induced crisis
and mental health crisis and think that and assume that they're automatically commissioning
another crime. In fact, people with mental health issues are more likely to be victimized
violently by other people than the other way around. When it comes to drug use as well,
these are people that have, when it's a problematic drug use or drug induced crisis, this is often
a reflection of people not having a safe space to use drugs. It's also people not having
good information about how to use drugs safely. And so because society has rejected them,
they turn to more dangerous and more uncontrollable forms of use. And so that causes more problems
for both people who use drugs and it caused problems for people who don't do drugs, right?
And people just minding their own business and then having to deal with that. I would
call, I would say that that is the result of poverty, a lack of education and the war
on drugs and, you know, prohibitionist policies. Jamie. I feel like my question was answered.
I was trying to, or maybe not, I don't know, I'll ask the caller. I was trying to clarify
if you think that the policy should be the same across the board for all drug users,
or if you agree with the prior callers this evening that have made distinctions between
low level offenses and more illicit drugs. Well, the problem with the low level and the
non, when we do those kinds of arbitrary separations, like I don't, I'm sure most people don't
realize that cannabis concentrates in the, in the state of Texas is an automatic state
jail felony. Even though in other states, those particular forms of cannabis are proven
to be remarkably helpful for people dealing with debilitating disorders like post-traumatic
stress disorder, other eating and, you know, physical and mental disorders. So, but here
is an automatic felony. So if we just have that, well, is it a misdemeanor or is it not
a misdemeanor? And keep in mind, if you're found with any drug outside of flour, cannabis
or alcohol, you're automatically given a state jail felony because it's a special penalty
group. So, I mean, that covers everything from drugs like LSD, psilocybin, mushrooms,
which are considered to be some of the safest, least toxic drugs out there, but that obviously
doesn't include things like alcohol, which is considered to be one of the more dangerous
or detrimental substances in our community. Right? So, yeah, I would say that, you know,
that distinction, I understand. And I definitely think that, you know, focusing maybe first
on cannabis and other, you know, crimes like that would be ideal. I definitely with decriminalized
incident, we definitely advocate that we first and foremost decriminalized cannabis use and
decriminalized all misdemeanor offenses for that, including the state jail felony that
comes with having any personal amount of cannabis concentrate. And the design of all of that
is just to focus on non-commercial use. Right? So it's all about personal use. It's personal
use of any of these things. But personally, I would argue to this committee that we really
need to be considering like any personal amount of drug use, you know, that should be decriminalized
or at the very least, we should reduce the priority for enforcing that because at the
end of the day, like, you know, not only do we have the, there's a lot of, I think it's
a rights issue, of course, too, you know, but I think that what we need to be focusing
on is the relationship people have with drugs and not necessarily the drug itself. You can
have a problematic relationship with sugar. Sugar is a drug, and that's something a lot
of people don't recognize, but that can manifest some very serious diseases. Same thing with
alcohol, same thing with tobacco, same thing with a lot of legal substances. So the question
is not the drug. The question is the relationship you have to the drug. And I think that if
we consider that more as a society, we'd ultimately have better outcomes for people who use drugs
and the people that have to deal with the people who use drugs.
Katina?
I want to make sure I understand what you're saying and what I think just on a baseline
is what I'm hearing is that because of the criminalization of drug use between the different
people groups, white drug use, how it's seen as a mental health issue and how people are
handled versus Black, Brown, and other people who use drugs and are automatically criminalized
and there's over sentencing, you're trying to, you're suggesting to leverage all of it.
And I do, I want to be clear that I do hear you saying that if someone is committing a
crime, they are committing a crime. I don't necessarily, I mean, I'm not even talking
about the drugs and the PCP or anything like that. We may differ on how all that works.
But on a base level, you're saying decriminalize or at least leverage drug use in a way that
brings equity to all people. And if people are committing crimes, if people are committing
crimes, then handle up on them commit the crime. Is that what you're saying?
Well, I guess this is, yes, that's exactly it. I would say the only distinction I would
make is that there needs to be a distinction between violent and nonviolent crimes. And
I would consider simple drug use in and of itself, like possession of drug use, or, you
know, acts around that like drug paraphernalia. Those shouldn't be, those are nonviolent crimes
and they should be, we should be considering it as such. And that's where decriminalization
of that should come into place. But I agree, if you're committing a violent crime, a violent
crime is still a violent crime and that has to be, you know, prosecuted. It's just important
that we make the distinction between violent and nonviolent crime. And I hope that this
would help further that. Thank you.
I have a comment.
Yes, Willie.
I was lectured by several of you for questioning a caller about what they saw as an issue,
and that I was told this is a forum for them to state what they believe and what they think
about a given situation on topic, presumably. And, but yet you, Cheryl, asked the question
about the caller, similar to what I'm thinking was my same concern, that I took issue with
what someone said, because I didn't think it was factual. You took issue, sounds like
to me, maybe something else, that this person was saying what he thought was what needed
to be done in a situation involving the police. So we are going to have to have it both ways.
You can question, then I think the rest of us can question, but I have to agree with
what was said earlier. This is not the place for that to happen.
No, Willie, I asked him a question to clarify what I thought I heard.
But then you proceeded to then tell him what your thoughts are on the situation.
No, I didn't tell him my thoughts, I told him my experience.
Okay, whatever you want to call it. And you weren't saying you were wrong, nor was I, per
se. But basically, I guess I was when I said that quit bringing the national situation
into Denton. Just deal with Denton's situation. And then, as I said, the committee members
who spoke out said to me that no, we are in, we have in this forum, or this situation now,
this discussion, so that people can feel free to voice what they think about a given situation.
And that's what he did. Even though I know several of us will take issue with it.
But this is not the place to take issues with it, I was told.
I think, I was just going to say, I mean, I did feel a little uncomfortable, because
I felt like he was kind of being jumped on because you had such a personal experience.
I just want to say we need to give grace to the people that are calling and also just
ourselves. We've all had experiences, you know, and if
we keep bringing our own in, that's going to discourage others from coming in and sharing.
And so I appreciate you, Willie, that you, you know, you said, I'm not going to do that,
you know, and I think that we all need to do that. So we can discuss this later on.
We also have the advantage that we're getting a lot more information than the public has.
So some of the things that they're saying, we could go back and say, oh, that was already
discussed. We already talked about that a week ago, too. That doesn't matter. Let them
speak. This is our four minutes. And I know that people have been on there waiting already
for like an hour, an hour and a half or something. So like you said, let's let's keep going.
Let's keep listening. If there's things that we need to come back and clarify that we can
do that. And our meetings are public anyway, so they'll be able to watch if they want.
And let's go on to the next caller. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, Mariela. Yeah. Hi. Welcome
and thank you for calling. We'll give you four minutes and then if the committee has
questions afterwards, they'll ask you questions. Wonderful. Thank you. Good evening, committee
and buenas noches. My name is Mariela Nunez-Janes. I am a professor of anthropology with expertise
in the immigrant education. And I'm also part of a movement called Movimiento Cosecha Denton.
We focus on respect and dignity for the 11 million undocumented that are in the U.S.
and of course those that live in Denton. I was calling because I'm concerned about two
things. The first one is that I've been concerned about the committee operations and particularly
I was concerned about the ways in which this meeting was organized to focus on stories.
And I'm glad you had that conversation about what to do with those stories. And I really
hope and it seems to be an ongoing conversation and I really hope that you think about some
clear guidelines about what the committee is going to do with respect to the stories
and how they're going to be utilized for the purposes of the tasks that have been created
for this committee. Secondly, I wanted to raise some issues and questions related to
Denton PD's engagement with the immigrant community. I recently reviewed Denton PD's
proposal for engaging the immigrant community and I have been attending its Proyecto Amistad
which were community forums that were organized by Denton PD specifically to engage these
communities. And in these forums I have heard officers tell community members to call them
for anything that they need while at the same time express their frustration because they're
being asked to be mental health professionals, social workers, and in this instance immigration
officials. And officers are right to share this frustration and the presumption that
police can solve every problem I think is irresponsible and it is also dangerous. It
led to the deportation of one of my students and this happened before Chief Dixon became
chief, but it's a story that we hear over and over here in Denton and also in other
communities. The student had no criminal record and he got pulled over because of a broken
tail light. So the proposal that I read about engaging the immigrant community was reviewed
by myself and other community members, including some immigration attorneys, and we found all
sorts of inconsistencies and wrong information about immigration law and procedures. There
was no specific procedures for avoiding inquiries about immigration status and there was no
accountability in that proposal for officers who do not follow Denton PD's prerogative
of not being concerned with immigration issues. There was no specification of the department's
anti-discrimination policy or any norms of conduct to guarantee equal enforcement, particularly
as it pertains to the immigrant community in Denton. And if Denton PD has an official
stance when it comes to avoiding racial profiling, specifically in inquiries about status and
citizenship, why not make officers accountable? Why continue insisting in engaging inquiries
about immigration status, especially in cases of victims of crimes and crime reporting?
If Denton PD is only interested in identifying a person's identity during routine stops and
not inflicting fear on the immigrant community, why not invest instead in community resources
and programs that are needed so that those who don't have a driver's license or who have
all their other alternative forms of identification can get those kinds of identification?
You have 20 seconds.
I am done. Does anyone have any questions? I'd just like to clarify a point. So we sent
that policy out, the new general order out for vetting before it's not even finalized.
So we intentionally sent it out so we could get feedback from the community. And I don't
know if that's ever been done here before. So I just want to make sure that people know
that we're sending these general orders out to solicit feedback from you, the community,
before those are even issued. So that was not a finished policy when it was sent to
you for vetting. And it sounds like it did exactly what the intended purpose was, so we
could get feedback before we finalized it. So it's still not in time.
I appreciate it. I'm still waiting to hear the response related to the feedback that
I and others provided.
So I'm sitting right next to our policy sergeant right now. And the policy hasn't been finalized.
She's going to be reaching back out to all the groups because we sent it to more than
just to you. Some of the groups haven't responded back to us yet. So we're trying to be as flexible
as we can. We don't want any community member to think that we're moving on without getting
their input.
I understand that. In the meantime, I think it is an item that needs to be discussed and
put on a priority list, particularly in our current COVID crisis. There are people that
are being detained and that are being deported who are infected with COVID. There's somebody
right now in the Denton County jail who has an ice hold. And whether, I don't know if
that person was actually detained by Denton PD or not, but it is happening. And so I think
it's something that needs to be put on the priority list. And it's often not considered
in discussions related to police use of force. I think we need to think about also the psychological
impacts of force. And certainly when it comes to the immigrant community, the ability to
use fear is also an example of force.
Camille?
Oh, I wasn't really raising my hand, but I will say, I want to thank you for sharing
your comments and uplifting the needs and concerns that might be of those folks that
we have in Denton that are immigrants. I know as an organizer here in Denton, there are
events that we plan that we have to provide alerts for so that folks who might be migrants
or immigrants know that police might be there because it's necessary sometimes when you
have events, it's not an option not to have them. So I just wanted to uplift thank you
for sharing that information.
Lillian?
Thanks.
I was just going to say thank you, Dr. Neus-Janes, just for all the information. And it's not
only the undocumented population that has these concerns, it's also people who are naturalized
citizens and U.S. citizens. Because if a person is going to make an assumption, they're not
necessarily going to, you know, I don't have my birth certificate or my passport, you know,
to show that I'm a U.S. citizen. So it goes to racial profiling. Those are real issues
that we have to consider because we wear our identity on our skin, you know. And so I appreciate
you bringing that up to the forefront, Mariela.
Pam?
I just wanted to thank you as well, because I don't, we don't want to be afraid. These
issues have to be brought to the forefront. And I'm very, very appreciative of you bringing
this to our committee. So I'm very grateful for that. Thank you.
You're welcome.
Katina, did you raise your hand? Oh, okay. Okay. All right. Thank you for calling.
Thank you. Have a good night.
All right. And that will, we don't have any more callers in our queue. Do we need any?
Can I ask a quick question? Yes. It's probably something I shouldn't have. Can someone tell
me what's the number of total committee members that we have? And what's the number necessary
to reach a quorum?
We have 21. Quorum is 11.
Thank you.
Cheryl, this is Mike. Just wanted to mention a point that a first couple of speakers mentioned.
There is no provision under state law that allows the forfeiture of a pension. If an
officer is fired or convicted of a crime, the legislature is going to have to change
that. Okay.
To that point, Mike, I think it would be helpful and Chief Dixon also. There are a lot of issues
raised tonight and I imagine they will continue to be raised over this committee's work that
are legislative in nature and not of city governance. And so I think there have been
several points made by several committee members tonight and even in previous meetings about
the importance of educating not only ourselves as committee members but also helping to educate
the public about those differences. Can you start to kind of create, I don't know, sort
of an FAQ or whatnot that would list out some of those things so that we can begin sharing
that information?
Sure. Yeah. And I'll talk to the chief. I know and I believe city manager probably knows
more about this than I do that when the legislature is scheduled to meet, I think the city has
its certain things that they want to address and bring to the legislature and I'll bet
you that statewide there's going to be some legislation made or presented to the legislature
dealing with all kinds of police reforms. The other thing too I forgot to mention, not
only can we not stop a pension, people had mentioned benefits. If an officer is fired
they can keep their health benefits for 18 months under COBRA. If someone's injured on
duty they're going to keep their workers comp benefits. But if they're fired their vacation
all that other stuff stops but it would take legislative action on the pension front. Some
other states do provide forfeiture of a pension if an officer is fired or convicted of a crime
arising from their job, but that's not in Texas law. But I'll get with the chief and
we'll certainly put together a list of the types of things that you've talked about from
a reform standpoint. My suggestion would be in the recommendations that you make to the
mayor and council to raise those issues.
So those aren't things that the meeting confer can change? Some of them yes. I don't think
you can change the pension statute. I don't think we can negotiate a change to that. Yes
Gary. Mike on that same topic, would it be possible to see what the city advocated for
in the most recent previous state legislative session and maybe help us understand what
was passed versus what was left on the table that you hope to achieve that you want to
carry forward this next session. Sure we have a legislative priority booklet that we have
the city council debate give us input on and then that's basically our marching orders
through the legislative session. So I'll ask Sarah to send it out to the committee just
so you get an idea what that looks like. Yes Katina. So in listening to the calls from
the citizens, a name that just continued to come up was Darius Tarver. And then the other
issue was just what good are we as an ad hoc committee? Like are we worthless or are we
doing any good? Those were the two things that came forward and as well as because we
do have police officers on the committee and just you know the accountability and if there's
a bias. And I feel like that we need to flush those three things out a little bit more because
it's clear and even in the protest Darius's name came up. He was one of the reasons why
we were there were 7500 protesters and a thousand protesters and ongoing protests. I really would
love for us to consider and if this is possible some type of report to be accountable. I don't
know if that's possible because of the investigation but just kind of spelling out and answering
some of these questions and things that you know the Dent PD has been challenged on because
it's a real source of contention. And it's a real sort like it's an issue of like there's
an issue of distrust within PD based on Darius's case and the other young man who was killed.
And so that's one issue but two I think we the citizens deserve to hear from us as far
as just our like what are we doing and our you know accountability to them and that we're
not here for optics. And I know that several of us like we you know I know I'm looking
at faces are very passionate including some on the police force side are very passionate
about seeing reform and I think that the people deserve to know like and get those questions
answered and you know be comforted knowing that we were not here just for a show. And
then what was the other thing I said there were three things. I'm sorry y'all. Well
let me just say this with regards to and I know that that's everybody's concern is that
there is Tarver case. Yeah. But at the same time we have to allow due process and it's
under investigation and Mike you can jump in if you want to because you're the attorney.
I don't think that during an investigation we're going to get much information we can
take the charges to look at the policies that the department has and based on that and the
information that we've received in the presentations and just what we've got here. A couple things
I think Jesse probably needs to recuse from this. Okay. If I'm reading your hand right
is that correct. Yeah. So specifically on that one. Oh there you are. Okay. Yeah I did
have a comment in response to Katina's good points that she brought up but specifically
if the committee is going to discuss that one case then I would need to I'll just mute
my video. Okay. I did have a response to Katina also. Okay. Well you go ahead with your response
to Katina Jesse you're probably going to say what I was going to say. Well we might be
saying something similar. I just wanted to kind of from the council viewpoint jump in
and talk about the thing that the council and the policymakers in Denton really need
from this committee the value that y'all bring is in the perspectives and it's the role as
it's defined in the resolution that we that we did of course is on use of force. We know
that police policies around use of force are necessarily going to be broader than just
that one topic. We know that use of force is going to necessarily involve a bigger conversation
but I think it's really important to remember that even though everybody comes from a lot
of different perspectives a lot of different backgrounds the folks on the committee that
the police on the committee are members of the police associations. Everybody else on
your screen that's police associated is not a member of the committee they're just here
for for resources they don't have a vote. What council is looking for is a report from
y'all on what improvements can be made at the city of Denton what's going well what's
not going well specifically on use of force and frankly that's bigger than any one case
it's bigger than any one agenda some of our callers tonight were associated with certain
organizations but you know that y'all this is not just about Black Lives Matter or protests
it's about you know getting it right for Denton and Samuel had a really good point when he
called in he said what we need is healing and justice and and that's really spot on
that's more than just one group's duty that's really on the shoulders of the whole community.
So I think as much as it would be helpful for that for the committee to talk about a
particular incident or a particular case I think the thing the council needs is something
that's bigger than that and broader than that and more than just incidents in time even
some of our callers talked about you have to be careful with stories and anecdotes that
we have to look out is the big the big picture and councils asking you all the big picture
questions. Well and I appreciate your response but I just want to clarify because I do think
that it takes both there are stories and Darius Tarver is a culmination of why we and why
we're here. Black Lives Matter it you know yeah it needs to be more than Black Lives
Matter but this is where we are because Black Lives haven't mattered and this is why we
need to be here. The Black people you know like myself and Kamyon like we're here for
because Black Lives haven't mattered and this has been centuries and decades of issues that
culminate in some of these stories and Denton has stories and that's one of the issues is
that so often we think oh Denton such a sweet little college town and we have the best you
know police chief now we do and but but there are stories that have been untold there didn't
record Chronicle is not covering all the stuff that you know the Black Lives Matter people
want to talk about you know we become soundbites so these stories are important and integral
even though big picture yes you know it needs to be more than just those stories but those
stories are part of what we're doing it's a part of the fabric and so I appreciate your
response but I just wanted to to clarify. Cheryl if I could I would like to ask Mike
Cronig to weigh in on the Darius Tarver thing I think we need to hit it head-on and I'd
like him to at least educate the committee on the processes we have to follow this isn't
something where there's much of a choice for all parties involved but it deserves a response
and and I'd like to ask Michael to try to educate everyone as much as we can from the
administrative investigation if you remember I think was last week I was talking about
the GE material and the confidential that's an ongoing investigation and that is confidential
by law at this point and I'll be just right up front with you I don't even know all the
facts yet the investigation is ongoing so for the committee really to be talking about
what happened without even the chief and me knowing all the facts just as kind of premature
at this point so that's from an administrative standpoint but from a criminal standpoint
it will be presented to the grand jury at some point and I don't know if that investigation
is done we also don't want to taint I think the last thing right might want is a change
of venue if there's too much talk and discussion out there if if he's indicted or any other
officers then they may want to change a venue and move it because I don't think they can
get a fair trial because there's been too much pretrial discussion about it and we don't
want to interfere with the district attorney's ability to present that case fairly to the
grand jury so chief is there anything you want to add from yours no those are just the
concerns at this point I know everyone wants to talk about it but it's just not the appropriate
time right now unfortunately well and I appreciate that that response was very helpful I'm not
sure I wasn't sure at what stage the case was so that response is extremely helpful
thank you yeah it hasn't it hasn't got to the grand jury so if the city takes any position
all parties are harmed okay let me let me get to Willie because I just got to pop up
that we have a caller and so I'm gonna go to Willie Jamie Lillian and came on and and
then we're gonna take this caller okay thank you sure Jesse you said something was very
helpful to me because I I was not really clear as to where we were trying to go with the
committee from this for sure from the standpoint of what council needs and so I wish you would
Jesse just very quickly again summarize what you would hope what you would like for us
to present to you as a committee sure I think what council is looking for and and I think
probably the city manager as he oversees the chief and the police department what we're
looking for is a report from our citizens on what's working well at the Denton police
department where there's room for improvement things that we could be doing better and you
know give credit where it's due and and also be unflinching and criticism I think that's
only I think that's only fair in this kind of situation situation and I think that's
the only way we move forward from this time that we're in is to deal honestly with each
other in that way all right thank you
Jamie did I say you were next and then Lillian and then came on I don't know I don't know
I was just gonna speak to Katina's point about accountability I know that when we had our
first meeting we sort of did around Robin introduction of ourselves and it focused on
sometimes community activism sometimes our professional lives or some sort of combination
of those things but there hasn't really been a space for us to speak out individually about
why it is that we felt compelled to agree to this committee because none of us were
appointed and and I think there are maybe we were I don't know I wasn't I was asked
by the mayor to participate and I had the choice to agree to participate or not and
so I think that that kind of information is important to the community because we've heard
a couple times tonight either perceptions or misperceptions about how I was committing
with organized and feelings that it was too top-down and that we sort of are here on some
sort of contrived pretense and I don't I don't think that's true for any of us and so I wondered
if there might be space for us to speak to that either in writing or on the web page
or something we can do it on the webpage Lillian yes um I wanted to make a couple of points
um I'm glad that this is coming up because that was a question that I wanted to to talk
about um so Jesse you said you know what council needs what the city manager needs I think
that's super important but I also think that each of us as community members that are expected
to take the information that we learn here and take it back to our own communities we
also have to bring forward what does the community need what is it that they want right um you
also talked about you know what's working well or give credit or credit it's due I hope
that that's not only as it pertains to use of force because that would then then we need
to be having a very different conversation and only concentrate on that if we're talking
about the department as a whole what's working you know well it's with the department as
a whole I think that that's more along the lines of what we're doing um I come back to
the accountability piece when we were talking about you know that's that's the legislature
we need to go you know talk to the legislature and I asked okay well can that be changed
you know with an income fair and then it dawned on me that why with the police department
and the and the police association made up of police officers bring up something like
that to where they're going to lose pension and they're going to lose benefits right because
they're being held accountable for something that they do the only people whose interests
I would serve is the community and so that's why I think that a lot of us keep on bringing
up the point that we need a community oversight committee whether it's on use of force whether
it's to do you know to deal with the being confer um you know it at any level I think
that that's been the point that's missing and I think that's the point that is uncomfortable
at the beginning of this um Willie I'm not picking on you because I love you but but
you said um you know how do I even know it's true you know and we're quick to question
when a community person comes up and says something because we might not ever experience
but that's the way that I've been approaching the numbers and the the anecdotal uh statements
that some of the police are telling me you know if I don't ask clarifying questions I
hope that I'm not being perceived as combative or that I'm nitpicking I just if I say if
if someone tells me there's 14 use of force um and only three were sustained and I just
sit there and say okay and I don't ask a question then that defeats the purpose of me even being
on this committee I want to know why was it sustained who brought the complaint who ruled
that it was sustained and why were the other 14 not you know and so those are the things
that I think we need to hold our department at a higher standard of accountability than
even the citizens does that make sense and so I just want to bring all that up because
I think that there's lots of things that we need to flush out but I think the overall
thing is that we need more citizen input we need more citizen oversight we need more citizen
investment right and we need more of these voices to come in and and kind of share the
information that that we're hearing and that all these conversations are happening so you
know I wanted I wanted to say that because I think that it's really easy to get lost
because there is a lot but the one thing that I keep hearing and the one thing that I'm
going to make sure that council knows at least for my part is that we need citizen oversight
cam man were you next sure I am um I don't know if I have my thoughts fully formed uh
but thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts I just wanted to share that um I do agree
that Jessie said that all of us were brought here because of our perspectives and I wanted
to uplift what Jamie said that we haven't actually been able to share what those perspectives
are um or I wanted to also uplift like what a caller mentioned around like are we going
to be able to share our perspectives around um police and police force or our experiences
because that is probably one of the reasons I joined this committee are due to my experiences
but I don't know if I'm allowed to share those in this space so I'm wondering if there's
going to be space for that um I also wanted to share along the lines of what Lillian was
saying is that all of us most of us on the first meeting mentioned that we're community
members that are well engaged with um community activism and that we're not just accountable
for the work that we're doing on this committee but we are accountable to the committee the
community and so they are looking to us these are people we were chosen because we're community
leaders I think I think that's why I was brought on um and so we're we're accountable to the
communities in which we serve and so if we're not bringing up things we aren't necessarily
meaning to be contentious but if we aren't bringing up things that are questionable to
us or that affect our communities then we're not going to be able to make a difference
here and I also want to uplift um I'm glad that Katina brought up some themes that you
saw I saw themes around racial profiling I saw themes around immigration um and profiling
those individuals I heard so many themes around mental health so whether or not we are able
to talk about Darius Tarver and what's going on with that case the number one theme around
that case is mental health concerns and how police um use of force is used around those
situations and that's something that the committee needs to definitely uplift I also want to
bring back up um two other things only two other things um I want to bring back up the
idea of these stories that we're hearing and that are being shared and how we could support
community members that are sharing these stories is it possible for us to have um some sort
of counselor on on hold for folks after they are on a call that they can process things
with after they're done speaking with us um just to make sure that we're not doing additional
harm to folks that are calling in and um the last thing I want to mention is like I heard
that this is not just Black Lives Matters and I agree that this goes far beyond just
black lives because there are many lives that are affected by police I've heard a lot about
those um but I want to mention that like for me and probably for many community members
this committee was put together after a large amount of protest around the movement for
black lives after the murder of a community member that was black that had mental health
issues so for community members these things are intertwined and they might be intertwined
also for members of this committee and so we can't discount that as a reason that we're
here and it is literally a reason why people are calling in as we've heard and it needs
to be discussed so those are my last two things to mention.
Okay um does anybody else um who does anybody else have anything we say before we adjourn?
Go ahead Todd.
Yeah Cheryl thank you um I think the Kamians points those are really good points we we have
been uh doing our best to try to bring information to the table to help educate the committee
and and you know try to share some of the progress that we're making but I think that
is an excellent idea if we could get ask all of you that if we're not hitting some of the
subjects you want us to hit because we're building these agendas it would be very helpful
for us to know what you would like to learn about what you'd like to hear about with with
regard to this I mean the policies are dry they're important uh we've overwhelmed you
with a lot of information about uh chapter 143 our meet and confer that sort of thing
um but but we're really trying to to get our pulse on on what you would like to know and
I think it would be helpful to email uh Sarah myself Chief Dixon just say hey at the next
meeting or two can we please address these topics and we're happy to do whatever you
want.
Just a quick question is was this uh portion was it still going um like could people still
view it at real time?
Yes uh I think we had said that we were cutting the meeting down at are you talking about
tonight?
Yes like is this time that we're having discussion um is it still showing for citizens?
It will still show for citizens we'll have it recorded and uh we're just kind of we're
wrapping up in accordance with your 8 30 um deadline and just trying to get your input
on what you would like how do you like us to spend your time in the next few weeks?
Cheryl did we talk so long that the caller hung up you're muted
your headphone or something isn't working maybe unplug it and try to talk through the
computer.
Well she's figuring that out um um Mike can you help me understand um the open meeting
act um if if I are we allowed to talk to someone else on the committee if it's not a quorum?
No you need a quorum in order to have um for the committee to meet.
No but if it's just a conversation then guess is what I'm asking like are we allowed to
have private conversations as members regarding committee business is that what you're asking
Lillian?
Yes yes I think I'll defer to Sarah she wants to answer that if she can well I kind of wanted
to know what's the law not what we might refer as as as citizens we're not elected officials
we're not anything so are we not allowed to do that yes we can yes we can talk to each
other yes okay oh well Mike and Sarah do y'all want to because that that's something that's
of concern to me I want to know that are you talking are you talking about in this meeting
setting here or just outside no like let's say I go grab coffee with Gary because Gary's
a nice guy and I and you know we talk about we debrief what we talked about and you know
that's fine yeah that's yeah I thought you meant if you didn't have a quorum for this
meeting could you then proceed into okay I misunderstood you and is there and is there
a sign on a number like what about what about if five of us went out to get coffee that's
fine and you guys hear me oh okay thanks sorry go ahead is that fine we would probably just
you know discourage as you get larger larger groups because you know because then it's
going to be perceived that you're working outside of the committee I mean if if a couple
of you want to go grab a bite to eat or a coffee or whatever I think that's fine but
you know part of the benefit of this committee is is the transparency with which we're operating
and all the questions that you're asking that sort of thing so I think it's going to be
in the eye of the beholder if they see a large group of folks working outside of the committee
I think the optics sometimes aren't great and I would probably encourage you if it's
more than one or two people don't do it it would be only if you exceeded a quorum that's
that would be appropriate okay can you hear me now yes okay next week I'm gonna get you
Rhonda I just want to remind you next week we're gonna have calls as well so we'll do
the first 30 minutes no Sarah no sorry the next meeting is on July 30th we had planned
to finish the use of force policies but we'll reconvene we'll see if there's any other topics
that we received from committee members kind of kind of try to plan out or sketch out the
next few meetings for the committee and get your feedback make sure that we are covering
the topics that you want to hear about and then we have off there is no meeting the week
of Thursday August 6 there is no meeting so that is a break in the schedule but the next
meeting will be on July 30th then second public input session that we had planned on the calendar
is for August 20th and so we will leave open the online form so residents can continue
to submit comments throughout the next month we'll periodically send reports to the committee
members so you have all those comments and can digest continue to digest and review those
and then we will have the second input session with the phone in on August 20th we can put
on the next agenda if the committee wants to discuss altering that public input session
at all based upon the first session that we've experienced here thank you Sarah okay Willie
you had a comment and then we're gonna adjourn the meeting yes as the chair I would make
a recommendation that you direct this meeting a different direction just my own preference
I'm tired of all the charts and people talking about things that are not helping me to reach
the conclusion that Jesse is saying the council wants us to reach I also agree with the comments
that somewhere and this is what we are to be talking about instead of all these charts
what the members have said you need to know why I'm on this committee you just need to
know I mean all of us so that then we can then understand where we're coming from and
I think with knowing those two things and that we start talking and listen to the public
more heck that's what we need to do listen to what the public is talking to us about
instead of the church so like again like I said I don't follow and I don't see what they
have to do what we're doing listen to what the public says and then let us respond to
each other like we're doing then we can reach where Jesse is saying that the council wants
us to the position that they need us to to communicate with them we are in and lastly
we don't we we I'm a rules guy and if I hear you saying we are not really after telling
the police that the rules that they're using as far as forces of concern is what they want
to hear why in the world are we still talking about it then that's not what they're asking
us to communicate to them they want us to say what is the rules and how they're being
enforced according to what we think and what do we suggest that we do well we don't need
any more charts for that out there Rhonda yes I'd like to ask the chief question about
uh is do you have any alternatives when you arrest someone and put them in jail do you
have any alternatives to the county which has the covid problem we don't have any alternatives
other than holding them at our facility and if they're not going to be able to bond out
they have to go over to the county all right thank you I'll just ask a question or say
something real quick um as far as the charts Mr. Willie I understand what you're saying
but some of us are data analysts and they're very helpful in helping us to work through
some of these things I know that all of us have our personal preferences in which way
in ways which you know things should be shared but I feel like all of the information that
we've been getting up to this point has been helpful for the group as a whole because it's
not about one single person Lillian did you have your hand up no I was just I was just
agreeing I need the information I need the data me too cameo okay can we adjourn now
no let me say I stand corrected I stand corrected well hey I'm just here I stand corrected did
we lose the last caller Willie if I were you I would just agree with her right now okay
you don't have to agree with us we just offer a different perspective just like you offered
a different perspective like okay hey I'm just I'm just subhuman all right just kidding
just kidding just kidding don't you forget that you're supposed to love me all right
so we're gonna we're gonna adjourn this meeting you guys are being recorded so the last caller
didn't hang up yeah okay okay all right well thank you guys we'll see you next next Thursday
bye y'all bye good morning everybody