WEBVTT

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 Good evening, everybody. Thank you for being here again on the second meeting of the use

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 of force ad hoc committee. We have a loaded agenda tonight, so we're going to go right

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 into the first item, which is item A, the consideration approval of the use of force

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 ad hoc committee meeting minutes. Did everybody have an opportunity to read over the minutes?

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 Okay. We're going to do it a little different because first I'm going to need a motion and

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 a second and then when it's time to vote on it, I'll need you to raise your hands if you're

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 in favor. And then if you're not, then we'll come back and then you'll raise your hand.

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 So do I have a motion for the minutes for the last meeting? So moved by John Baines.

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 Okay. A second by Jamie Blanton. Okay. The first was the John Baines and Jamie. Or was

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 that Pam? Okay. And then all in favor, can you raise your hand and hold it up for a minute?

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 Okay. And those not in favor, can you raise your hand? Okay. Motion carries. Onto the

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 next item. Did everybody have an opportunity to go to the use of force simulators? Okay.

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 I did not. Okay. So I think a few of you guys are rescheduled for another time. Okay. Can

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 we get two or three people to let us know the ones who did go, what your experience

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 was like, Gary, I know you went, I saw you. Chair, I thought it was outstanding and I commented

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 to the city manager that I thought it was brilliant to allow us to go through that process

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 very early in our journey. It's not a joking matter, but I died once. I was pretty good,

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 one out of six. But I don't think you would hire me. I think that was the reality. Rhonda,

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 I saw you leaving. Unmute yourself. Well, I too was very impressed. I died once too,

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 the same killer, but I shot somebody right between the eyes. So I was pretty proud of

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 that. It was really interesting. I mean, really what I thought was every, every person ought

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 to have an opportunity to go through that. It was really challenging. Yeah. Who else

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 wants to talk about their experience? Madam chair chambers, I thought it was a great experience.

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 It certainly gives us a different perspective as to what those officers have to deal with

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 on a day-to-day basis. And I really think every leader in the city of Din, ought to have an

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 opportunity to go through the simulator. Anybody else? Yeah, I thought in as much as the experience

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 was what it was. I mean, I was with Gary. I got shot real quick. Willie Hudson, he gave

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 me a D. I said, I don't know how that's. But I think as much as that experience, it was

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 also the dialogue. We were the last group, so we got to stick around afterwards. Okay.

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 Officer Green, Yancey was there with us and just to be able to dialogue back and forth

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 about different realities that was combined with the experience was really formative and

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 meaningful and fruitful, I thought. Anybody else want to talk about their experience?

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 Okay. Well, thank you guys for participating. And then we'll capture it again for the ones

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 who didn't go. We'll talk about it again about what your experience was, or did you have

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 anything to say or wanted to contribute to that and let us know how that went. The next

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 on the agenda item is item C. Receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the presentation

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 and review of the state civil service law and meet and confer contract provisions related

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 to the investigation of allegations of police misconduct and review of data from the Denton

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 Police Department regarding complaints and disciplinary actions. And it is going to be

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 a little different tonight because after each presentation, then we'll have discussion.

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 So if you could hold off or take notes so that when we, we can just move this meeting

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 on just a little bit quicker and then ask our questions at the end. But Mike Kronick

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 is our deputy city attorney and he's going to do this presentation. And Mike, I would

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 ask that you would tell a little bit about yourself so that the committee knows your

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 experience. Sure. I don't remember what I said last time

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 when our first meeting, but I was a police officer for the Dallas Police Department from

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 1983 to 1991. I worked patrol in the Northwest part of the city up where Bachman Lake and

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 Love Field is. Then went to law school in Philadelphia from '91 to '94, came back to

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 Dallas and was one of the attorneys for the Dallas Police Association, Dallas Firefighters

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 Association, handled all kinds of employment matters, including I went out on every officer

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 involved shooting, which usually, unfortunately happens in the middle of the night on the

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 worst weather. I represented officers in disciplinary appeals and did that from '91 to, no, from

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 '94 to 2000. 2000, I was hired by the city of Austin Law Department to be the employment

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 attorney for the Austin Police Department. And for the next 20 years, I was the employment

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 attorney for the Austin Police Fire and EMS Departments. I was their legal advisor for

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 their internal affairs division. And some people would probably say, "Well, you're biased against

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 police because you were an officer and you represented police officers." I kind of think

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 it's just the opposite because for the past 20 years, my job was to represent the chief

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 of police in Austin, trying to get the discipline upheld. And I was pretty successful. Part

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 of what I'm going to talk about is what officer appeal rights are so that you kind of understand

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 that it is pretty difficult in today's day and age to fire an officer and to keep that

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 officer fired. And I think after my presentation, you'll have a little better understanding

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 of how that is. I came to Denton in April. I retired from Austin, came here. I know chief

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 Dixon. We worked together in Austin for a number of years and that's one of the reasons

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 I came here. And I am the employment attorney now for the entire city. Since I've been here,

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 most of my work has been police related. Not that there's a lot of misconduct, but it just

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 seems like police departments in the cities that I've worked tend to have the most work

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 of any other city department. So I appreciate your being here tonight and I'll try to go

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 through this as quick as I can. So what I'll do, let me upload this presentation. The presentation

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 primarily is going to talk about Texas local government code chapter 143. That's commonly

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 referred to as the firefighter and police officer civil service act. So if you hear

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 me talk about a reference chapter 143 or the act, it's the same thing. There's five areas

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 that I want to cover and as Cheryl said, after each one, we'll have a break where you can

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 ask some questions. But the first part I want to do is provide an overview of chapter 143.

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 So you have an understanding of what that is. Then I want to talk about how a meet and

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 confer agreement can change that. So I'll have to tell you what a meet and confer agreement

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 is for those of you that don't know and how that can change chapter 143. The third thing

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 I'll talk about is the provisions of chapter 143 that are related to investigations of

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 misconduct against police officers, the disciplinary actions that can be imposed, and then an officer's

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 rights if he or she is disciplined. Then what I'm going to do is talk about how the meet

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 and confer agreement has changed that. And the last thing we'll talk about and Assistant

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 Chief Smith is going to cover the last section. And I think you'll find real interesting is

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 going to talk about data for the police department from 2015 to 2020 related to complaints against

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 officers and the disciplinary actions that are imposed. I kind of think you'll probably

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 have more questions about that than you will about the contract and the law, but I may

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 be wrong. Chapter 143 of the Texas Local Government Code. The very first part of it says this

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 is the purpose. The purpose of this chapter, and this is word for word, is to secure efficient

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 fire and police departments composed of capable personnel who are free from political influence.

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 And those are the key words, and I'll tell you about that in a minute, who are free from

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 political influence and who have permanent employment tenure as public servants. Chapter

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 143 only applies to those cities whose voters had an election and approved it. The voters

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 are dead and approved chapter 143 for both your police and fire departments. And I believe

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 that was back in the 1940s, so it's been here for quite a long time. You can see this little

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 note I put here because a lot of people always ask or say, well, police officers should live

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 within the community in which they work, otherwise they're not vested in it. Well, chapter 150.021

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 of the Local Government Code specifically prohibits a residency requirement for police officers.

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 Now, you could, through the meet and confer process that I'll talk about in a minute,

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 change that. You could put a provision in that agreement that officers have to live

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 within the city. However, from a practical standpoint, I don't think the police association

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 or the city would require officers that are currently working here to sell their house,

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 to take their children out of their school districts. But if there was an incentive or

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 a reason to, you probably could put a residency requirement for future hires. It's not in

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 the contract, but I'd just like to point that out to you. So what is chapter 143? What does

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 it do? It addresses the hiring of police officers, the appointment and removal of the police

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 chief, wages and benefits, promote the promotional process, disciplinary actions and appeals,

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 confidentiality of police personnel files, and that's including the investigative files.

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 And the very last slide that I talked to, I tie this point into potential citizen oversight

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 of the Denton Police Department. 143 also talks about mental and physical fitness evaluations

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 for police officers. Now, if you remember on the prior slide, I talked about free from

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 political influence. The purpose of 143 is to prevent a police chief from hiring family

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 members and friends and paying them differently than everybody else and only promoting them

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 and only hiring people of a certain race or certain religion. 143 sets forth process for

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 hiring and promotions that is supposed to establish a level playing field. So that's

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 pretty much what chapter 143 is. The meet and confer process, some of you may know what

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 that is, but there's a provision in chapter 142 that applies to cities like Denton that

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 are over 50,000 that have adopted chapter 143. For cities like Austin and Houston, San

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 Antonio that have a population of over 460,000, there's a provision in chapter 143 that applies

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 to them. But for Denton, it's the 142 provision. And meet and confer is a purely voluntary

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 bargaining process between the city and a police or fire employee association. There

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 is no requirement to meet, there's no requirement to bargain over any specific subjects, and

00:14:04.800 --> 00:14:10.760
 there's no requirement to even reach an agreement. So if the police association contacted the

00:14:10.760 --> 00:14:15.680
 city manager and said, "We'd like to meet and confer with you over wages and benefits,"

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 the city manager has the authority to say thank you, but we're not interested in it

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 at that time. However, if the city manager and the council and the association do want

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 to meet and confer, then we can bargain over wages, salaries, rates of pay, hours of work,

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 and other terms and conditions of employment. Other terms and conditions of employment is

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 pretty broad, but it includes things like leave and benefits, disciplinary actions,

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 those types of things. And if you, if the city and the association agree to a meet and

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 confer agreement, that agreement can supersede or preempt a state law, a local ordinance,

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 or a rule adopted by the city or the city civil service commission concerning subjects

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 like wages, salaries, rates of pay, hours of work. Simple example would be under state

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 law chapter 142, police officers in a city with a population of over 10,000 are entitled

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 to 15 days vacation a year. If the city and the association wanted to, they could agree

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 to lower that to 10 days, or they could increase it to 20 days. So that's just kind of a subject

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 that the association and the city can agree to if they want to. And if the city and the

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 association sit down and negotiate a contract and come to a tentative agreement, the agreement

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 is then submitted to the membership and it has to be approved by a majority of the association's

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 membership and a majority of the city council. So if the majority of the association doesn't

00:16:04.560 --> 00:16:11.640
 approve it, it doesn't even go to the council. I had a situation in Austin in 2017 where

00:16:11.640 --> 00:16:17.040
 the association approved the contract, but the city council voted it down. So we had

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 no contract and we negotiated for another year till we got one. If an agreement is reached,

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 it is a legally binding contract between the city and the association that is enforceable

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 in state court. And just to give you an example of some other cities that have a meet and

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 confer agreement, and this is just some, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, Houston, Abilene,

00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:47.540
 Temple, McKinney, San Angelo, there's a whole bunch of them. And every agreement is really

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 different. They have a lot of similar provisions, but each one is negotiated based upon the needs

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 of the specific municipality. Just to give you an idea, usually I've been involved in

00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:07.440
 probably about a dozen negotiations with our police, fire, and EMS unions in Austin. And

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 in my experience, the unions are usually interested in negotiating over wages and benefits and

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 officer rights during an investigation. The city's interests usually are, they want changes

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 in 143 to the hiring and promotional process, which increases diversity as well as discipline.

00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:39.520
 So that's just kind of a highlight of the law that the city and the contract that the

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 police department and the city are operating under. And I'm happy to answer any questions

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 that anyone might have about either one of those subjects.

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 - I have a question, Michael. This is John Baines. When is the next negotiation for meeting

00:18:03.520 --> 00:18:08.880
 conferred to, or will it occur? - The current contract expires on September

00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:18.840
 30th of 2022. I'm assuming, and Todd may need to speak to this, probably a few months earlier.

00:18:18.840 --> 00:18:24.620
 I'm assuming that the association will notify the city or vice versa that they'd like to

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 discuss negotiating a successor agreement. So probably not going to sit down with them

00:18:30.560 --> 00:18:39.680
 until probably the spring or summer of 2022. - My last question on it is this, at this

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 point is, are there any items which are currently under consideration for that forthcoming contract?

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 - I'll defer to the city manager on that. - I'm going to defer to Chief Dixon who's

00:18:56.280 --> 00:19:02.200
 been more recently engaged in those conversations. - So there's a number of things that I'm going

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 to want to bring to the table this next contract. And most of it has to do with further professionalizing

00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:12.840
 the organization. We're looking at formal education requirements coming into the department

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 as they promote up into especially supervisory and managerial ranks and looking at other

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 ways that we can continue to stay. I want us to be ahead of the rest of the profession,

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 especially up here in the DFW area. It's so competitive up here when you're looking at

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 recruiting and retention. I want us to be on the upper cusp of that.

00:19:35.320 --> 00:19:42.600
 - I will say contracts can always be reopened if both sides want to do so, but I don't know

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 that I don't think that's really been considered at this point. Depending on what comes out

00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:53.800
 of this committee, we'll just have to see. But I think for right now, the contracts in

00:19:53.800 --> 00:20:00.680
 effect and we'll go back to the negotiating table in 2022.

00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:07.400
 - Thank you very much. - I have a follow-up question. I'm sorry,

00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:13.440
 go ahead. - Go ahead, Paul.

00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:18.440
 - You had mentioned that since you've been here, most of your time in your position has

00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.080
 been spent with the police department as opposed to the other departments. And that's been

00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:31.480
 your experience in other cities as well, you said. Maybe add a little bit of just clarity

00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:37.440
 to why that is, why you've been given an ordinate amount of time here since you've been here

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 to the police department and then in your experience that that's typically the case

00:20:41.280 --> 00:20:46.840
 other places as well. - Sure. Chief Dixon is trying to make changes

00:20:46.840 --> 00:20:52.920
 to the existing policies and a lot of my time has spent been helping them do that. There's

00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:58.120
 been a few disciplinary cases I've been involved with and then this committee. And then also

00:20:58.120 --> 00:21:05.560
 there's been some discussion about maybe trying to have some form of civilian oversight in

00:21:05.560 --> 00:21:12.960
 Denton. I was one of the primary drafters of the oversight process in Austin. I wrote

00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:18.200
 the majority of the language in the Austin contract that dealt with oversight. So I've

00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:26.120
 been doing a lot of work on that, just researching it and preparing that if that comes to fruition,

00:21:26.120 --> 00:21:34.440
 some of the legal and contractual challenges. And that's just most of my experience in Austin.

00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:40.680
 The police department is really the most high profile. Most of the litigation involves police

00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:47.520
 departments. Police departments can take away your freedom and your life. And it just seems

00:21:47.520 --> 00:21:54.040
 like everything in my experience with the police department is always high profile and

00:21:54.040 --> 00:21:59.120
 an emergency and needs to be handled right away. So Denton is no different than Austin,

00:21:59.120 --> 00:22:08.880
 even though Austin is 10 times bigger. - Thank you. That's really helpful.

00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:12.240
 - Anyone else? - Yes. My follow-up question was in regards

00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:18.200
 to the contract itself. You said that it won't be eligible for succession or renewal until

00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:26.200
 2022, but that it can be reviewed under certain circumstances. I was curious if in your experience

00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:32.360
 you have ever been part of a situation where it was revised in advance of the contract

00:22:32.360 --> 00:22:37.680
 and why that decision was made in that case, if you have an example.

00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:43.780
 - We did in Austin, that happened with at least one police contract that I can recall.

00:22:43.780 --> 00:22:51.960
 And I don't remember exactly what caused it to be open, but we did go back in. We revised

00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:57.960
 it where we put in, I think it may have been some oversight issues, but we also put in

00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:05.760
 a provision where we included or created an incentive for officers to move back within

00:23:05.760 --> 00:23:11.840
 the city, given the city council, the authority to offer some financial incentive to officers

00:23:11.840 --> 00:23:18.400
 to move within the city limits. But anytime you wanna reopen a contract, it's a bargain.

00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:25.560
 So if the city, for example, wants to negotiate a change in something, the association is

00:23:25.560 --> 00:23:31.680
 certainly probably gonna want something in exchange for it. And that's really a management

00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:36.800
 and council decision whether they want the city to go back to the table or wait till

00:23:36.800 --> 00:23:44.440
 the new negotiations. - Thank you.

00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:50.240
 - Did anybody else have any questions? - I have a question.

00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:55.240
 - Okay. - There's a mention of mental and physical

00:23:55.240 --> 00:24:01.480
 fitness evaluations. What are the mental health assessments?

00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:09.040
 - That's a statutory provision where if a question comes up about an officer's mental

00:24:09.040 --> 00:24:15.620
 or physical fitness, for example, if the chief believes that an officer is suffering from

00:24:15.620 --> 00:24:24.400
 PTSD and not capable of doing the job, there's a process. It's a three-step process. The

00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:29.680
 first step is the officer goes to his own physician and we give them the essential functions

00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:34.320
 of the job and the physician determines whether or not the officer can do those essential

00:24:34.320 --> 00:24:41.360
 functions. If the chief questions that report, then the Civil Service Commission can appoint

00:24:41.360 --> 00:24:47.560
 a physician or psychologist to conduct an independent evaluation. And if those two reports

00:24:47.560 --> 00:24:53.160
 conflict, then the commission can appoint a three-doctor panel whose decision is final.

00:24:53.160 --> 00:25:01.920
 So it's a lengthy process. It can take several months. Ultimately, it could potentially result

00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:08.840
 in the officer's termination if they're not fit to do the job. But we always have to take

00:25:08.840 --> 00:25:14.600
 into consideration the Americans with Disabilities Act and see, for example, if it's a physical

00:25:14.600 --> 00:25:21.020
 disability, we have to see whether or not we can accommodate that. But there is a specific

00:25:21.020 --> 00:25:28.080
 process if there is a physical or mental question about an officer's ability to do the job.

00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:33.520
 Okay. And just as an addendum to that, are recruits screened with any kind of mental

00:25:33.520 --> 00:25:37.080
 health assessment? I'll defer to the chief, but I believe they

00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:42.840
 do undergo a physical as well as mental evaluation. Is that correct, chief?

00:25:42.840 --> 00:25:47.280
 That is correct. They go through both a written and they sit down with an interview prior

00:25:47.280 --> 00:25:55.800
 to being hired while they're in the process. What is the written mental health assessment?

00:25:55.800 --> 00:26:01.000
 It's whatever our doctor on contract right now is using. Typically, it's something that's

00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:07.080
 relative to the NMPI. Okay.

00:26:07.080 --> 00:26:10.120
 So an updated version. Yeah. Minnesota Multifaceted Personality Inventory.

00:26:10.120 --> 00:26:13.440
 Okay. I might want to follow up on that a little bit later, but thank you for that.

00:26:18.120 --> 00:26:24.280
 Does anybody have any more questions before we move on?

00:26:24.280 --> 00:26:35.960
 Okay. Let's see. I'll make sure that I get to the right one. So the next part I want

00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:41.200
 to talk about is investigations of police misconduct. And here's a flow chart and then

00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:47.600
 I'll talk about each one. The first step is we get a citizen complaint

00:26:47.600 --> 00:26:52.560
 or an internal complaint, which could be from a fellow officer or a supervisor. So we get

00:26:52.560 --> 00:26:58.800
 a complaint. It then goes to the Internal Affairs Division that investigates it. Internal

00:26:58.800 --> 00:27:05.240
 Affairs does fact finding. They do not make a recommendation whether a policy violation

00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:10.880
 occurred or not. If you have any questions about that, the chief can explain that. They

00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:18.240
 do fact finding. They then give those facts, fact finding to the officer's chain of command

00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:24.600
 that reviews those findings with Chief Dixon. The chain will make a recommendation to the

00:27:24.600 --> 00:27:29.420
 chief whether they think a policy violation occurred. Their recommendation is not binding

00:27:29.420 --> 00:27:35.440
 on the chief. He can accept or reject it. And if the chain does recommend that a violation

00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:42.520
 be sustained, then the chief will schedule a disciplinary review hearing. And at that

00:27:42.520 --> 00:27:50.120
 meeting the chief will have the involved officer present and the officer's chain of command.

00:27:50.120 --> 00:27:56.200
 And I'll go into it a little bit more about what happens there. And then the chief makes

00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:05.760
 a final decision as to whether to sustain any policy violations and then the appropriate

00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:14.440
 discipline. So under Chapter 143, let me say this. One of the things that I think you'll

00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:25.000
 realize at the end of my presentation is, let's say you see a video on TV of an officer

00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:30.280
 doing something that clearly is inappropriate. And that video is sent to the chief the same

00:28:30.280 --> 00:28:35.280
 day. People or some people may say, well, that chief should fire that officer right

00:28:35.280 --> 00:28:40.840
 away. Don't even wait. The video is clear. No question. Go ahead and fire him. The chief

00:28:40.840 --> 00:28:48.520
 can do that. But I think after this presentation, you'll realize that if he does that, there's

00:28:48.520 --> 00:28:57.040
 probably about a 99.99% likelihood that officer is going to get his or her job back. And that's

00:28:57.040 --> 00:29:04.120
 part of what this presentation is to show to you why that might happen. So under Chapter

00:29:04.120 --> 00:29:12.480
 143, a police officer can only be suspended, demoted, or fired. And you may have heard

00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:19.240
 the term indefinite suspension. That's the civil service equivalent to firing. So a suspension

00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:25.320
 is something short of firing. A demotion is being demoted in rank, or an indefinite suspension

00:29:25.320 --> 00:29:33.520
 is firing. Police officer can only be, one of those things can only happen for one of

00:29:33.520 --> 00:29:38.860
 these 12 enumerated things. And I'll just let you take a minute and look through the

00:29:38.860 --> 00:29:52.360
 first six, and then I'll switch over to the next page. And then, so those are the first

00:29:52.360 --> 00:29:57.800
 six, and they're not in any order of importance or anything like that. And then here's the

00:29:57.800 --> 00:30:09.480
 other six. Most police officers are suspended for a violation of paragraph number 12, which

00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:14.400
 is a violation of an applicable fire police department rule or order. The police department

00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:20.400
 has general orders that set out standards of conduct and a whole bunch of other. I think

00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:26.560
 the department's policy manual is several hundred pages long. But in order to suspend

00:30:26.560 --> 00:30:33.960
 fire or demote someone, you have to fit the conduct within one of these 12 categories.

00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:39.880
 And I can tell you that's very, very easy to do. Usually it'll fall within number 12

00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:46.840
 easily. Everything starts with a complaint. The complaint can be the person alleging to

00:30:46.840 --> 00:30:52.600
 be the victim of the misconduct, a person who witnessed it. It can be someone that's

00:30:52.600 --> 00:30:59.280
 anonymous. It can be another city, a police department employee, or let's say somebody

00:30:59.280 --> 00:31:03.980
 calls and says, I don't want, or somebody sends a video and we don't know who it came

00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:09.240
 from. The police department can adopt the complaint and be the complainant. So everything

00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:17.720
 starts with a complainant. Probably the most, I don't know, some of you may have heard of

00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:27.200
 something called the 180 day rule. This is probably the most important rule for disciplining

00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:34.520
 a police officer that's subject to chapter 143. And what that means is any complaint

00:31:34.520 --> 00:31:39.760
 can be investigated. It doesn't matter when it happened. I had a complaint in Austin that

00:31:39.760 --> 00:31:48.400
 was more than 10 years old and the person filed the complaint and it was way outside

00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:56.160
 the 180 days. And what that means is an officer could not be suspended, indefinitely suspended

00:31:56.160 --> 00:32:03.840
 or demoted if the act for which the officer is being disciplined occurred more than 180

00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:10.960
 days before the discipline takes effect. So if the chief fires me today, he cannot fire

00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:19.160
 me for something that happened more than 180 days ago. After that 180 days is up, the most

00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:24.120
 discipline that can be opposed is a written reprimand. So you can imagine what happens

00:32:24.120 --> 00:32:32.040
 when somebody comes in on the 178th day and complains about serious misconduct. The chief

00:32:32.040 --> 00:32:37.680
 basically has two days to do something under chapter 143. Now I'll explain in a minute

00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:43.200
 how the meeting confer contract has changed that. But that is the general rule. You cannot

00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:49.960
 suspend, demote or fire someone for something that happened more than 180 days ago. However,

00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:56.640
 there is an exception if it's criminal conduct. If it's allegedly related to a criminal violation

00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:03.400
 of federal, state or local law and the officer is still subject to prosecution under the

00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:09.520
 applicable criminal statute of limitations, that 180 day clock starts on the day the department

00:33:09.520 --> 00:33:16.840
 discovered the criminal conduct. So for example, if the criminal conduct occurred 200 days

00:33:16.840 --> 00:33:24.220
 ago, we're outside the 180. But if the chief just found out about it today and the officer

00:33:24.220 --> 00:33:31.000
 can still be prosecuted for it, then the 180 day clock starts today, the day the chief

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:38.960
 found out about it. Now the good thing, and I applaud the meeting confer agreement, that

00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:45.160
 changed the 180 day rule, but not for the criminal stuff. The criminal 180 from date

00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:53.320
 of discovery still applies. But for everything else, the chief now has 240 days from the

00:33:53.320 --> 00:34:01.320
 date of the alleged misconduct to discover. So we went from 180 to 240. And then on top

00:34:01.320 --> 00:34:07.840
 of that, the chief then has another 180 days from the date of discovery to investigate

00:34:07.840 --> 00:34:15.780
 and impose discipline. So now potentially the chief has up to 420 days to impose discipline

00:34:15.780 --> 00:34:22.680
 rather than 180 days. I think that's a great provision. In Austin, we've tried repeatedly

00:34:22.680 --> 00:34:28.960
 to get the police association there to increase the 180 day rule, and they steadfastly have

00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:35.880
 rejected that. So I think that's a great extension. And again, as I mentioned, that extension

00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:43.760
 does not apply to criminal. And I'll explain in a little bit how we deal with that criminal.

00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:53.280
 And here it is. If an officer is indicted for a felony or charged with a misdemeanor,

00:34:53.280 --> 00:35:02.480
 a class A or B misdemeanor, if that happens, the chief can suspend the police officer with

00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:09.480
 or without pay for no more than 30 days after the criminal charge is disposed of. So let's

00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:16.880
 say we had an officer today who was indicted by a grand jury for family violence, assaulting

00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:25.320
 his spouse. The chief then could suspend that officer without pay until the criminal charge

00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:31.560
 is resolved. And I'm sure you know sometimes criminal charges can take years to resolve.

00:35:31.560 --> 00:35:38.400
 So the chief can suspend that officer without pay. And once the criminal is resolved, then

00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:45.560
 the chief has 30 days after that to impose disciplinary action. Nobody wants to pay an

00:35:45.560 --> 00:35:52.480
 officer that is accused of committing a crime to sit at home and be paid. And in my experience,

00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:57.520
 I can't think of a single instance where a police chief has let an officer sit at home

00:35:57.520 --> 00:36:04.900
 being paid while they're under criminal indictment. Being arrested is not sufficient to trigger

00:36:04.900 --> 00:36:12.320
 that provision. The officer has to actually be formally charged with a crime. 143 has

00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:18.740
 a provision that says even if the officer is found not guilty or the criminal charges

00:36:18.740 --> 00:36:25.080
 are dismissed, that doesn't mean that the officer can't be disciplined because in a

00:36:25.080 --> 00:36:31.160
 criminal trial, the officer doesn't have to testify. The standard of proof is higher in

00:36:31.160 --> 00:36:39.000
 a criminal trial. And criminal trial is determining whether the officer violated the penal code.

00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:44.200
 In internal affairs investigation, the standard of proof is preponderance of the evidence

00:36:44.200 --> 00:36:50.200
 and it's whether or not the officer violated department policy. So and the last point I

00:36:50.200 --> 00:36:57.640
 want to point out is if the chief wants to indefinitely suspend an officer, but doing

00:36:57.640 --> 00:37:04.920
 so would jeopardize the criminal investigation, the chief can protect his right to suspend

00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:11.600
 the officer indefinitely by sending a letter to the attorney general, notifying him that

00:37:11.600 --> 00:37:18.200
 a delay is necessary to protect the criminal case. And I have personal experience with

00:37:18.200 --> 00:37:23.880
 this and I can tell you why that's important. I know there's been some criticism of the

00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:30.960
 chief waiting to impose discipline when there may be a pending criminal investigation. I

00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:37.980
 had a case in Austin where an officer was accused of sexually, he offered two women,

00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:43.920
 he would let them go if they perform sexual acts for him. They had warrants and he said

00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:49.780
 I won't take you to jail if you do this for me. The chief of police at the time indefinitely

00:37:49.780 --> 00:37:55.960
 suspended the officer even though there was a pending criminal investigation. The officer

00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:01.000
 went ahead and appealed his discipline. He then you and that appeal took place before

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:06.640
 the criminal case. The officer then subpoenaed every single person involved in that criminal

00:38:06.640 --> 00:38:12.040
 case, including the victims and was able to get them to testify under oath about what

00:38:12.040 --> 00:38:19.320
 happened. The officer then was able to use that testimony in his criminal case. So that

00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:25.160
 is why the chief will send this letter to the attorney general to postpone taking disciplinary

00:38:25.160 --> 00:38:31.400
 action because he does not want to jeopardize a criminal case. So that's the provision that

00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:38.800
 deals with if an officer is charged with a crime. In chapter 143 the legislature was

00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:45.840
 keen and sensitive to that. That's why they put that in there. I just want to talk about

00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:51.460
 the investigation and there's just a couple more slides and then we'll take some questions.

00:38:51.460 --> 00:38:56.480
 As I mentioned, internal affairs does the fact finding. They will obtain all the relevant

00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:01.960
 information including any body worn cameras. They'll get the reports. They'll interview

00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:10.360
 the officer. They'll interview witnesses. The chapter 143 does not give an officer the

00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:18.040
 right to a union or attorney during a internal affairs investigation, including their interview.

00:39:18.040 --> 00:39:23.560
 Chapter 143 does not require the department to show the officer any of its evidence before

00:39:23.560 --> 00:39:30.400
 they do the evidence before they do his interview or her interview. There is an exception though

00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:36.400
 state law allows an officer to review any body worn camera video of the incident prior

00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:41.780
 to the officer being required to provide a statement about that incident. So that's really

00:39:41.780 --> 00:39:48.280
 the only thing that the officer gets to review before they are interviewed. And if you remember,

00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:55.400
 I think last time our first meeting I talked about the Supreme Court's Garrity decision

00:39:55.400 --> 00:40:01.560
 statements a public employee is compelled to provide as a condition of employment cannot

00:40:01.560 --> 00:40:08.360
 be used against that employee in a criminal prosecution arising from that incident. That's

00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:15.600
 an important component of an internal affairs investigation because in a criminal investigation

00:40:15.600 --> 00:40:23.200
 an officer cannot be compelled to say anything. They cannot be forced to incriminate themselves.

00:40:23.200 --> 00:40:29.000
 But in an administrative investigation, an officer can be forced to give a statement

00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:33.960
 to internal affairs. And that's why the Supreme Court said an officer should not have to be

00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:42.920
 forced to choose between incriminating themselves and their job. The meeting confer agreement

00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:50.120
 member I told you that it can change certain parts of the law. Well, there is no requirement

00:40:50.120 --> 00:40:55.040
 chapter 143 as I mentioned that an officer has the right to see any evidence before their

00:40:55.040 --> 00:41:00.800
 interview. However, as part of the negotiations for the current meeting confer agreement,

00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:07.600
 the city did agree to allow the officer to have these rights in connection with an administrative

00:41:07.600 --> 00:41:13.480
 investigation. The office, the subject officer, not witnesses, just the officer that's accused

00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:20.320
 of doing something wrong has the right to be represented by an association representative

00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:26.080
 and or an attorney during their interview with internal affairs, as well as during a

00:41:26.080 --> 00:41:32.400
 disciplinary meeting with the chief. But the representative is there and is an observer.

00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:37.160
 They can't interfere with the investigation. They can't tell the officer don't answer that

00:41:37.160 --> 00:41:44.640
 question or tell them how to answer it. And if the representative doesn't obey those guidelines,

00:41:44.640 --> 00:41:49.720
 the chief has the right to remove that person from the interview. And it'll be continued

00:41:49.720 --> 00:41:55.920
 without the officer having a representative present. Witness officers do not have the

00:41:55.920 --> 00:42:01.640
 right to a representative during their interview. It's just the accused officer. In addition

00:42:01.640 --> 00:42:07.600
 to that, the contract allows the officer who is the subject of the investigation to review

00:42:07.600 --> 00:42:15.080
 certain evidence prior to their interview. That includes a copy of the actual complaint

00:42:15.080 --> 00:42:21.600
 at least 48 hours before their interview. And what that means is the officer cannot

00:42:21.600 --> 00:42:28.960
 be interviewed until at least 48 hours have expired after they get that complaint. So

00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:35.400
 if the officer is the subject of an investigation, we have to give the officer a copy of that

00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:42.840
 complaint and then we have to wait 48 hours before we conduct an interview. The officer

00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:46.600
 can waive that. If they just say, hi, I just want to get this out of the way, they can

00:42:46.600 --> 00:42:54.440
 waive that. But if they don't, we have to give them 48 hours. And I'll answer any questions

00:42:54.440 --> 00:43:02.800
 you have in a minute. The officer also has the right prior to their interview to review

00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:09.120
 any videotape, photograph or other recording of the operative conduct or alleged injuries,

00:43:09.120 --> 00:43:14.540
 which is the subject of the allegations. So for example, if an officer was arrested for

00:43:14.540 --> 00:43:22.720
 DWI and there is an in-car video of the officer driving and doing the field sobriety test,

00:43:22.720 --> 00:43:27.440
 then the officer gets to review that prior to his interview because that is the operative

00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:33.640
 conduct that's being investigated. If an officer is accused of using excessive force and causing

00:43:33.640 --> 00:43:39.800
 an injury to someone and we have pictures of those injuries, then the officer is allowed

00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:48.020
 to view a copy of those pictures because those are photos of the alleged injuries. The officer

00:43:48.020 --> 00:43:53.420
 also has the right to review those portions of any documents in which the officer is alleged

00:43:53.420 --> 00:44:00.520
 to have lied or left out important information. So for example, if an officer is alleged to

00:44:00.520 --> 00:44:05.600
 have provided false information in a search warrant, then we have to show the officer

00:44:05.600 --> 00:44:11.480
 what part of that warrant that we contend was false. And then if it's the officer also

00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:17.680
 has the right to review any report, supplement your use of force report or other statement

00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:24.480
 that the officer wrote regarding the operative conduct. So for example, if an officer wrote

00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:31.140
 a report about using force, and it's an excessive force complaint, then the officer gets to

00:44:31.140 --> 00:44:40.360
 review the report that he wrote about that. Let me just cover this and let me just see.

00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:47.240
 Let's have a couple more slides and then I'll answer some questions. So once an investigation

00:44:47.240 --> 00:44:53.600
 is done and Internal Affairs has done their fact-finding, then the chain of command makes

00:44:53.600 --> 00:44:59.440
 a non-binding recommendation to the chief on whether or not a violation occurred. And

00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:07.640
 here are the different classifications of complaints. Sustained, the investigation established

00:45:07.640 --> 00:45:13.760
 that the alleged misconduct did occur. Not sustained, the investigation failed to produce

00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:20.280
 sufficient evidence to clearly prove or disprove the allegation. Exonerated, the investigation

00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:27.480
 established that the act complained of did occur. Yes, I did use force, but it was justified

00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:33.000
 legal and proper. Unfounded, investigation established that the act complained of did

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:40.360
 not occur. And then a policy violation, the investigation revealed that the act did occur

00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:45.880
 and may or may not comply with department policy, but it was determined that the allegation

00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:50.640
 and misconduct could have been prevented had the policy been more clear or complete. So

00:45:50.640 --> 00:45:56.940
 basically, you know, the policy just wasn't as clear as it should have been. So those

00:45:56.940 --> 00:46:03.280
 are the different classifications and ultimately the chief has the final decision on what the

00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:13.720
 final classification is. And then if the chain of command recommends that a policy be sustained,

00:46:13.720 --> 00:46:20.120
 the chief will schedule a disciplinary meeting with the officer and the chain of command.

00:46:20.120 --> 00:46:25.320
 Prior to that meeting, the meet and confer agreement gives the officer three hours to

00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:30.640
 review the investigative file. It does not, that review does not include the summary that

00:46:30.640 --> 00:46:35.920
 the investigator wrote, but the officer gets to review all the witness statements, all

00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:42.440
 the reports, all the documents, all the pictures, all the videos. And in a disciplinary meeting

00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:48.040
 with the chief, the officer has the right to be represented by an association member

00:46:48.040 --> 00:46:54.080
 or an attorney. At that meeting, the chief will give the officer the opportunity to explain

00:46:54.080 --> 00:46:58.840
 what happened. The chain of command and the chief get to ask the officer questions about

00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:05.520
 what happened. And once that questioning part stops, the officer and his representative

00:47:05.520 --> 00:47:12.120
 will leave the room. The chief will then discuss with the chain of command whether they think

00:47:12.120 --> 00:47:18.800
 a violation occurred and then they make a disciplinary recommendation. Ultimately, then

00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:23.200
 the chief decides what he's going to do. The chief will then bring the officer and his

00:47:23.200 --> 00:47:31.360
 rep back into the room and inform him or her what the decision is. I know that's a lot

00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:37.580
 of information and I covered a lot there, but I'd like to give you folks the opportunity

00:47:37.580 --> 00:47:45.560
 to ask any questions about any topic that I covered.

00:47:45.560 --> 00:47:56.800
 I have a quick question. You mentioned that the 180 days and the 240 days that the city

00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:03.680
 now has adopted, it all pertains or it all has to do with when the chief finds out. But

00:48:03.680 --> 00:48:09.000
 what if there was misconduct or anything else, a complaint, anything, but it stalled out

00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.280
 maybe one level or two levels below the chief? Is there any accountability for that? For

00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:18.200
 the department?

00:48:18.200 --> 00:48:24.920
 I think I can speak for the chief that if a manager knows about something and didn't

00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:28.920
 take appropriate action to report it, I think the chief is going to hold that person accountable.

00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:36.760
 Is that a fair statement chief? That's a very fair statement. I get briefed very regularly

00:48:36.760 --> 00:48:41.560
 on a daily basis from assistant chief Smith. So he and I work very well together and I

00:48:41.560 --> 00:48:47.560
 have the utmost confidence that he'll bring every complaint to me as he should.

00:48:47.560 --> 00:48:52.780
 Now I do want to tell you why making the chief be the person who becomes aware of it is really

00:48:52.780 --> 00:48:59.760
 important and you folks may, it made the national news. We had a school teacher down in Austin

00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:06.720
 that was thrown to the ground by a police officer and it was on video and the officer's

00:49:06.720 --> 00:49:13.200
 chain of command knew about it and they took care of it. The chief of police in Austin

00:49:13.200 --> 00:49:19.440
 at the time did not know about it. When it finally came to the chief's attention, 180

00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:26.920
 days had already expired. The chief could not take action because when someone at a

00:49:26.920 --> 00:49:34.160
 command level knew about it, that knowledge was imputed to the chief and the chief was

00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:42.720
 outside the 180 and he could not fire that officer even though he wanted to. So making

00:49:42.720 --> 00:49:49.440
 the day the chief becomes aware of it protects the chief's ability when a lower ranking

00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:55.960
 member did not take appropriate action at the time. So that is actually a good thing.

00:49:55.960 --> 00:50:08.280
 180 days customary, is that a customary amount of time? Those amount of days, 180 days, is

00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:15.280
 that a customary amount of time for an investigation in law enforcement?

00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:21.560
 I'll comment and then I'll let the chief chime in. I'll tell you what, the chief, he was

00:50:21.560 --> 00:50:26.680
 actually I know he was in internal affairs for a while as a lieutenant so I'll let him

00:50:26.680 --> 00:50:29.320
 address that.

00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:35.560
 So by state statute we have 180 days, actually we have 240 here and that's by state statute

00:50:35.560 --> 00:50:41.000
 in the meeting confer contract. I'll tell you that the majority the vast majority of

00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:46.520
 our cases are disposed of well before that time.

00:50:46.520 --> 00:50:53.760
 But it is problematic when a person comes in after 160, 170 days. The department is

00:50:53.760 --> 00:51:01.840
 really under a crunch then to get it get it done and people have various reasons for not

00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:08.920
 coming forward. I'm not but we unfortunately we that that 240 days really is a big plus.

00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:14.760
 So I commend the department and the city for for getting that extension and then 180 days

00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:17.920
 on top of that. I think that's great.

00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:19.920
 I have a question.

00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:32.560
 Mr. Baines go ahead. Are you sure? Yes sir. Are you sure? Okay thank you. I have a question.

00:51:32.560 --> 00:51:41.760
 We live in the days of video now and I think this is a state and the situation I hate to

00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:46.800
 mention the situation but I think it precipitated a lot of things for the good the one officer

00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:56.400
 in Minnesota that kept his knee on the neck of that young boy yes he was a young man.

00:51:56.400 --> 00:52:04.080
 The chief there fired that person and as you mentioned a lot of times the officers get

00:52:04.080 --> 00:52:15.440
 their jobs back and this particular individual had a history of incidents where there should

00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:23.760
 have been done something done previously and so I'm saying all that to say this that if

00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:31.960
 these the 143 basically says it's hard to get rid of an officer that has a history.

00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:38.080
 How are we going to rectify that problem with 143? It's long it's a long answer long question.

00:52:38.080 --> 00:52:46.560
 Yeah it you know it every case is fact specific. I can't tell you what those 17 complaints

00:52:46.560 --> 00:52:54.320
 were on that former officer and whether anything was sustained or disciplined but I I'm comfortable

00:52:54.320 --> 00:52:59.320
 in saying where there's smoke there's fire if I feel pretty confident that if an officer

00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:06.440
 here had that history that the department would do an in-depth investigation to determine

00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:14.040
 what the problem is because there's something there so I really can't address that but we

00:53:14.040 --> 00:53:19.440
 do and I know that the chief will use progressive discipline if an officer has disciplinary

00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:24.120
 history that is one of the things that the chief will use in determining if you have

00:53:24.120 --> 00:53:29.960
 a history of sustained complaints and you're not correcting your behavior then progressive

00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:36.640
 discipline is going to be imposed. Let me say one thing about that Mr. Baines do you

00:53:36.640 --> 00:53:42.080
 remember offhand what the police association president said after the chief fired those

00:53:42.080 --> 00:53:50.120
 Minneapolis officers? I do not I'm sorry. He said they were denied due process he didn't

00:53:50.120 --> 00:53:55.120
 comment about what they did whether it was right or wrong he said they were fired and

00:53:55.120 --> 00:54:02.240
 they were denied due process and he may be right now they have pending criminal charges

00:54:02.240 --> 00:54:08.240
 but it is very possible if they go to arbitration an arbitrator may agree that these officers

00:54:08.240 --> 00:54:14.960
 were fired before they even had an opportunity to provide their side of the story so that's

00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:21.680
 my point that a police union or association while maybe not necessarily condoning the

00:54:21.680 --> 00:54:28.000
 officers actions will still say that they believe the officers are entitled to due process

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:35.000
 so I guess time will tell what will happen with those cases. Did I answer your question?

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:40.320
 I think you did it's a it's we're in a very difficult environment right now we're trying

00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:46.520
 to come up with policy and an approach that you know it's going to be difficult to take

00:54:46.520 --> 00:54:51.520
 care of everything one size will not fit all but I think we're making the effort to do

00:54:51.520 --> 00:54:56.200
 the right thing. And one thing that you will see when Chief Smith gets to the disciplinary

00:54:56.200 --> 00:55:02.720
 part of this the Chief Dixon has a I believe a different philosophy on discipline than

00:55:02.720 --> 00:55:08.160
 his predecessor so I think the message will get out there that officers realize that there's

00:55:08.160 --> 00:55:13.360
 a new sheriff in town so to speak and that white what might have been tolerated in a

00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:21.360
 prior administration is not the way it's going to be handled with this administration.

00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:32.940
 Thank you thank you very much. My question is along similar lines it's in regards to

00:55:32.940 --> 00:55:38.480
 records of officers that may be transferring or desiring employment in the Denton Police

00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:44.440
 Department who may have experience elsewhere in North Texas or across the country. I'm

00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:52.720
 curious what sort of documentation can be shared or is shared if I'm a police officer

00:55:52.720 --> 00:55:57.680
 in a neighboring North Texas community or from some other state and I transfer here

00:55:57.680 --> 00:56:04.400
 or have a desire to work for Chief Dixon what kind of record or history are you provided

00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:10.480
 with as to how many of these types of complaints and the outcomes of their complaints understanding

00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:15.200
 that there are differences and nuances across the country some of the conversation that

00:56:15.200 --> 00:56:21.240
 we had in our first meeting was about general employment retention and things like that

00:56:21.240 --> 00:56:26.880
 and so I'm curious how do we learn as our community if the people that we are potentially

00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:35.600
 hiring come with some history of complaint. Let me see the Chief Dixon or maybe Chief

00:56:35.600 --> 00:56:41.320
 Smith can answer that a little bit better than I can. Sure so we have our recruiting

00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:45.920
 officers that will do complete backgrounds no one can just summarily transfer here they

00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:50.040
 have to go through the entire hiring process like everyone else. Now if they're a prior

00:56:50.040 --> 00:56:55.120
 service officer recruiting will go over to that department they'll look at their file

00:56:55.120 --> 00:56:59.320
 whatever they're allowed to look at by law they'll go in there and look at their internal

00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:03.720
 affairs history if there is one and if there's one from out of state where we can't get that

00:57:03.720 --> 00:57:08.520
 information we'll send them up to wherever that department is to do it in person because

00:57:08.520 --> 00:57:13.600
 it is important to me that when we're hiring people that they're reflective of the type

00:57:13.600 --> 00:57:20.240
 of human beings we want working for all of you so we're not going to skimp and cut corners

00:57:20.240 --> 00:57:26.800
 when we're hiring folks. When you look at us having a test the civil service exam we'll

00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:33.840
 typically have between 70 and 80 people show up we'll end up with a list of 40 or 45 and

00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:40.960
 from that 45 we typically may be higher six to ten so we're not just hiring everybody

00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:47.960
 that comes looking for a job. I can tell you that unfortunately not every police department

00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:55.600
 is as diligent as Denton is in checking officers prior backgrounds so officers are they call

00:57:55.600 --> 00:58:06.620
 them gypsy cops I think sometimes able to go from one department to another.

00:58:06.620 --> 00:58:11.320
 I've got another question we last time and some of you can help me out with this in chief

00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:17.560
 maybe you can speak to it we talked about and I can't remember if it was specifically

00:58:17.560 --> 00:58:22.440
 with use of force situations that that eventually comes to you and you make the determination

00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:31.640
 and one of the points of conversation that we had was around the potential of those outside

00:58:31.640 --> 00:58:35.960
 of the department being a part of that committee that decides whether that goes to the next

00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:40.040
 step you remember this conversation from the first meeting.

00:58:40.040 --> 00:58:45.780
 I do so we have a use of force committee that meets but in lieu of that the entire chain

00:58:45.780 --> 00:58:52.600
 of command reviews every use of force all the way up to assistant chief Smith as you'll

00:58:52.600 --> 00:58:57.720
 see when he does his presentation in a minute the vast majority of our internal affairs

00:58:57.720 --> 00:59:03.640
 complaints are internally driven meaning that we catch a lot of things even more things

00:59:03.640 --> 00:59:09.360
 than we would get from the public you'll also see that when the public calls and makes a

00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:16.380
 complaint we typically find more violations that come out of just that one complaint that

00:59:16.380 --> 00:59:22.700
 we see when we're looking over the the entire call itself okay so I guess my question was

00:59:22.700 --> 00:59:29.120
 what we were talking about in the last meeting was more specifically focused on use of force

00:59:29.120 --> 00:59:34.480
 situations I was just wondering how that squares with the flow chart that you showed Mr. Kronig

00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:38.940
 like that's the same thing so if someone sees a use of force that doesn't look right to

00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:45.080
 them they will send that up to chief Smith he'll bring it to me he and I will look at

00:59:45.080 --> 00:59:50.160
 it ourselves if there's a violation there we'll open up an internal affairs investigation

00:59:50.160 --> 00:59:55.120
 on it and then I'll run through that same exact process as it was laid out okay so what

00:59:55.120 --> 01:00:00.360
 we were talking about last time was even it was more toward the front end of the flow

01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:04.680
 chart where the arrow was it was like right deciding if it needs to even move forward

01:00:04.680 --> 01:00:08.960
 and be investigated and some of the people in the committee here were saying perhaps

01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:13.840
 on use of force situations it'd be good to have community members but that was at the

01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:27.320
 beginning of the flow chart okay thanks I think when I remember having that conversation

01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:32.520
 but and I remember I think someone said we could we could look more into that having

01:00:32.520 --> 01:00:36.480
 civilian representation on that committee because my question at that point was why

01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:41.160
 isn't there why isn't there someone that's a civilian I think someone said it's it's

01:00:41.160 --> 01:00:46.360
 I mean it would take a lot for a civilian to be trained to know all the ins and outs

01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:51.360
 of all of that which I completely agree but I think that's something that's it can be

01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:55.440
 a recommendation the further we go and the more we know that can be brought up that there

01:00:55.440 --> 01:01:00.360
 should be some kind of we completely trust in the chief and the chief of police and the

01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:04.480
 assistant chief and everything but there still has to be some some accountability to the

01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:09.280
 public I mean I don't see why there wouldn't be Mr. coding if you can talk to us are there

01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:14.640
 other use of force committees in other cities that have civilian representation I don't

01:01:14.640 --> 01:01:22.520
 know or is that like I'm part of no I don't know if there's use of force committees as

01:01:22.520 --> 01:01:30.320
 such I know example for Austin we have an office of police oversight I know the police

01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:37.180
 department has a force review board I don't believe there are any civilians on that board

01:01:37.180 --> 01:01:43.960
 they're all police officers I just not familiar with enough cities to know if they actually

01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:50.160
 have civilians involved in the review of use of force on on the front end I think I'll

01:01:50.160 --> 01:01:54.800
 have to find out I was reading an article they had the civilians around there were even

01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:59.840
 like criminal defense attorneys it wouldn't just be like someone that has no experience

01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:05.800
 I'll have to find that see if I can send it but is that a possibility even anywhere in

01:02:05.800 --> 01:02:14.600
 the process that civilians can be part of that process chief Dixon or Michael yeah

01:02:14.600 --> 01:02:20.360
 I think there's a way I need to look at the issues it's going to really depend on what's

01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:29.080
 this person's role typically I think you all know there's a body worn camera statute but

01:02:29.080 --> 01:02:34.240
 there are there are some very specific rules that apply to when those videos can be released

01:02:34.240 --> 01:02:42.780
 and who can see them typically any in camera videos like from you know mounted inside a

01:02:42.780 --> 01:02:49.800
 police car those are going to be public we may there may be some exceptions to releasing

01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:55.920
 it right away if there's pending criminal and stuff like that but for the most part

01:02:55.920 --> 01:03:02.320
 videos I think members of the public at some point in time might be able to see them but

01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:08.600
 it's really kind of just depend on the circumstances but there's probably I don't want to say absolutely

01:03:08.600 --> 01:03:14.880
 yes but if if there's if the committee recommends that and there's a way to legally do it I

01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:22.440
 certainly don't think the city manager or the chief would have an objection to that

01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:31.960
 so are those videos public information in car videos are but again the the department

01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:36.120
 or the district attorney could not want to release them if they think it's going to affect

01:03:36.120 --> 01:03:42.980
 a pending criminal case that's in car videos and again the body one camera has a specific

01:03:42.980 --> 01:03:49.220
 statute with those videos can only be released under certain circumstances and certain criteria

01:03:49.220 --> 01:03:56.640
 that kind of the general rule is all information in the hands of the city is public that's

01:03:56.640 --> 01:04:06.240
 the general rule except and then there's some exceptions so we would need to know specifically

01:04:06.240 --> 01:04:16.680
 what is public information and what is not if we were going to go that route if you tell

01:04:16.680 --> 01:04:23.080
 me when when this panel comes to making recommendations I think you just need to be as specific as

01:04:23.080 --> 01:04:30.240
 you can what you want to see and why and then we can we can all look at it and determine

01:04:30.240 --> 01:04:36.320
 whether we think we we can do it my philosophy is not to say no it's to try to find a way

01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:48.080
 see what works can do it yeah if we can do it we'll find right okay thank you and look

01:04:48.080 --> 01:04:54.720
 like anybody else says mr. Kovac one question yes sir pulls in other cities where a neighboring

01:04:54.720 --> 01:05:00.080
 city or another law enforcement body would serve on that panel where they have the professional

01:05:00.080 --> 01:05:08.600
 expertise but they're outside of that sitting that police department I'll defer to the chief

01:05:08.600 --> 01:05:15.280
 I I mean police departments ask each other all the time to review things and to help

01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:23.640
 out I don't know if chief Dixon's aware of if he's ever done that you know chief I have

01:05:23.640 --> 01:05:30.160
 not called them in for any administrative purposes but for all criminal purposes we

01:05:30.160 --> 01:05:36.000
 are not going to ever investigate ourselves I am totally against that so whether it's

01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:40.080
 a neighboring organization state organization we're going to bring someone else in to do

01:05:40.080 --> 01:05:45.960
 those but but I think the chief certainly has the right to ask another let's say if

01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:50.880
 you wanted to ask the chief of McKinney to take a look at a video and get his take on

01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:56.480
 it I think that would be appropriate because it's helping the chief to make an informed

01:05:56.480 --> 01:06:07.760
 decision so I don't think that would be inappropriate I have a question what is the process of seeking

01:06:07.760 --> 01:06:15.920
 out a third party look like and how is that determined to investigate a third party for

01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:24.320
 a criminal yeah like if you are I think the example was having McKinney look at something

01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:31.840
 or if there's an investigation that's needed that's internal in you would secure a third

01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:38.080
 party agency what what does that process look like how how how is it determined like you

01:06:38.080 --> 01:06:44.440
 already have like a list of agencies or just want to know what that what that so for criminal

01:06:44.440 --> 01:06:51.240
 investigations we have the Texas Rangers that do it now for us here if that were to change

01:06:51.240 --> 01:06:56.160
 I would want to look at an agency that's at least our size or larger that someone that

01:06:56.160 --> 01:07:01.880
 has the investigative capability to be able to do it and is it required that you use the

01:07:01.880 --> 01:07:08.480
 Texas Rangers or is that just how how were they how is it determined that they would

01:07:08.480 --> 01:07:14.420
 be the agency well that was actually in place before I got here but there are state agencies

01:07:14.420 --> 01:07:19.360
 agency that's used across the city across the state to do those criminal investigations

01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:24.080
 I mean they do public corruption investigations they're charged with that in the state of

01:07:24.080 --> 01:07:29.480
 Texas they're charged with doing criminal investigations anyway so it's a natural fit

01:07:29.480 --> 01:07:35.600
 okay I mean we could use the Dayton County Sheriff's Office I don't know if the next

01:07:35.600 --> 01:07:39.000
 biggest city around here would be Louisville or somewhere like that but I haven't really

01:07:39.000 --> 01:07:47.720
 had to do that I will say from an administrative standpoint the Internal Affairs Division of

01:07:47.720 --> 01:07:52.720
 the Denton Police Department does not have to be the only body or is not the only body

01:07:52.720 --> 01:07:59.540
 that can investigate administratively both the contract and the law define an investigator

01:07:59.540 --> 01:08:08.160
 is an employee or agent of the city so if if there was the city manager has the authority

01:08:08.160 --> 01:08:16.640
 and the chief to request someone from outside the city conduct an administrative investigation

01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:22.940
 and that may be where there's may just depend on the facts may involve if I'll pick on assistant

01:08:22.940 --> 01:08:28.680
 chief Smith if for example he was accused of doing something wrong I don't think Chief

01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:33.760
 Dixon is going to have his Internal Affairs Division he might but investigate an assistant

01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:39.640
 chief he may want to ask the city manager or the city manager may decide on his own

01:08:39.640 --> 01:08:44.560
 to hire someone outside the city to do that investigation because it involves a high ranking

01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:53.680
 member of the police department but we all know chief Smith would never do anything to

01:08:53.680 --> 01:09:06.880
 warrant that so okay unless somebody has anything else I'll move on to the next part of my presentation

01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:20.880
 let me and chief Smith will be up in about about two minutes so so let's say that the

01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:26.840
 Internal Affairs does an investigation there's policy violations sustained here's the different

01:09:26.840 --> 01:09:33.320
 types of discipline under chapter 143 that can be imposed a written reprimand now there

01:09:33.320 --> 01:09:39.320
 are things lower than that like oral counseling and you know training but training really

01:09:39.320 --> 01:09:45.160
 isn't discipline in a sense but this is really the formal types of discipline a written reprimand

01:09:45.160 --> 01:09:53.600
 which can't be appealed a temporary suspension of 1 to 15 days which the officer can appeal

01:09:53.600 --> 01:10:00.520
 an agreed suspension of 16 to 90 days and what that means is the officer and the chief

01:10:00.520 --> 01:10:06.760
 agree that the officer is going to be suspended anywhere from 16 to 90 days and since they're

01:10:06.760 --> 01:10:14.000
 agreeing to that that can't be appealed and then indefinite suspension as I said is equivalent

01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:21.560
 to termination that can be appealed the chief also has at his disposal of demotion and that

01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:27.440
 can be disciplinary in nature or can be performance related there's two types of demotions one

01:10:27.440 --> 01:10:42.640
 is a voluntary where the officer can agree that the officer can agree to be demoted and

01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:49.360
 if an agreed demotion or a voluntary demotion you can't appeal it the other one is an involuntary

01:10:49.360 --> 01:10:58.160
 demotion and that can be appealed so let's say if a police officer violated policy the

01:10:58.160 --> 01:11:03.480
 chief can chief has a lot of options the chief can suspend the person and demote him he can

01:11:03.480 --> 01:11:09.360
 do both or he can do one or just the other but if the chief just says you're a sergeant

01:11:09.360 --> 01:11:13.560
 and you violated policy I'm not going to suspend you but I don't think you should be a sergeant

01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:20.440
 anymore and the sergeant refuses to take a voluntary demotion then the chief recommends

01:11:20.440 --> 01:11:27.840
 to the civil service commission an involuntary demotion and then we have to have a hearing

01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:34.480
 and the commission or a hearing examiner and I'll explain that in the next slide has to

01:11:34.480 --> 01:11:42.080
 approve it and until the commission or a hearing examiner approves that demotion the sergeant

01:11:42.080 --> 01:11:49.840
 keeps his rank and keeps his pay however the chief can reassign that sergeant's duties

01:11:49.840 --> 01:12:03.160
 during that interim period a lot of people wonder what can discipline be used for a discipline

01:12:03.160 --> 01:12:09.560
 can be considered by the chief for promotional purposes so when someone takes a promotional

01:12:09.560 --> 01:12:16.180
 exam and is up for promotion the chief has a right to consider that disciplinary history

01:12:16.180 --> 01:12:22.000
 in deciding whether to promote that person if the chief decides not to promote that person

01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:28.400
 and bypasses him or her for promotion that bypass decision can be appealed to the civil

01:12:28.400 --> 01:12:37.440
 service commission or a hearing examiner so here's the different types of discipline

01:12:37.440 --> 01:12:42.880
 and here's the appeal process there's just two more this slide and one more so if an

01:12:42.880 --> 01:12:53.520
 officer is suspended from 1 to 15 days involuntarily demoted or by path indefinite suspension or

01:12:53.520 --> 01:12:59.400
 bypass for a promotion the person can appeal to either the civil service commission which

01:12:59.400 --> 01:13:06.040
 is a three-member commission here in the city or to a hearing examiner a lot of times referred

01:13:06.040 --> 01:13:13.600
 to by arbitrators that is purely the officer's choice the officer can decide whether they

01:13:13.600 --> 01:13:21.440
 want to appeal to the commission or a hearing examiner and here's the difference the commission

01:13:21.440 --> 01:13:27.040
 it is composed of three citizen volunteers like yourselves a hearing to the commission

01:13:27.040 --> 01:13:32.840
 must be held within 30 days after the appeal is filed unless the officer and the commission

01:13:32.840 --> 01:13:41.560
 agreed to postpone it the commission can subpoena documents and witnesses if an officer chooses

01:13:41.560 --> 01:13:46.120
 a commission they may choose it because it doesn't cost them anything the commission

01:13:46.120 --> 01:13:53.040
 appeal is free however if the officer wants a lawyer they have to pay for that themselves

01:13:53.040 --> 01:13:58.760
 a decision by the commission requires a majority vote so if thought three commissioners are

01:13:58.760 --> 01:14:03.800
 present at least two of them have to vote if only two of them are present which is a

01:14:03.800 --> 01:14:10.400
 quorum then it has to be a two-to-nothing vote the city has the burden in a disciplinary

01:14:10.400 --> 01:14:15.780
 case the officer doesn't have to prove that he or she didn't do it the department has

01:14:15.780 --> 01:14:22.120
 to prove that they did the authority of the commission in a disciplinary appeal they can

01:14:22.120 --> 01:14:28.840
 overturn the discipline in its entirety they can modify it they can only let decrease it

01:14:28.840 --> 01:14:35.840
 they cannot increase it or they can deny the appeal altogether and uphold the discipline

01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:40.880
 commission has a hearing the decision is rendered immediately they don't write an opinion they

01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:47.400
 just say what their decision is in public and then they sign in orders saying what their

01:14:47.400 --> 01:14:53.180
 decision is the commission can award back pay and other loss benefits like vacation

01:14:53.180 --> 01:14:58.480
 that the officer would have accumulated and then if an officer chooses their commission

01:14:58.480 --> 01:15:05.000
 route only the officer can appeal the commission's decision to court and you may ask why and

01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:11.440
 the answer is the commission as a city entity it would be this if the city suing itself

01:15:11.440 --> 01:15:17.800
 and that that the city can't do that so that's one option in a commission appeal but I can

01:15:17.800 --> 01:15:25.600
 tell you based on 26 years of trying disciplinary appeals the officers always choose the hearing

01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:34.160
 examiner route because they win about 50 percent of those appeals and here's the hearing examiner

01:15:34.160 --> 01:15:39.640
 must be a member of the american arbitration association or the federal mediation and conciliation

01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:45.440
 service hearing examiners do this for a living whereas the commission of volunteers who were

01:15:45.440 --> 01:15:52.280
 just volunteering their time a hearing examiner must have experience that hears these appeals

01:15:52.280 --> 01:15:57.360
 must have experienced hearing public safety and disciplinary appeals hearing examiner

01:15:57.360 --> 01:16:02.760
 has the same powers and duties as the commission the way we choose a hearing examiner as we

01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:08.600
 try to agree on someone if we can't then we ask the arbitration association for a list

01:16:08.600 --> 01:16:13.960
 of seven if we can't agree to somebody on the list then we take turns striking a list

01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:20.920
 and the person's name that's left is the person who hears the case the hearing can take months

01:16:20.920 --> 01:16:27.000
 to schedule whereas as I mentioned the commission hearing has to be held in 30 days hearing

01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:32.800
 examiners are expensive the good ones charge anywhere from a thousand to fifteen hundred

01:16:32.800 --> 01:16:42.880
 dollars a day plus expenses the party split that cost so typically if an officer is represented

01:16:42.880 --> 01:16:50.080
 by a police association the association will pick it up commission appeal is free hearing

01:16:50.080 --> 01:16:55.880
 examiner costs a lot of money hearing examiners provide detailed written opinions they can

01:16:55.880 --> 01:17:02.680
 be 20 or 30 pages long usually takes 30 days to get a decision after the hearing so you

01:17:02.680 --> 01:17:08.080
 can imagine if it takes three or four months to get a hearing and the hearing takes a week

01:17:08.080 --> 01:17:13.960
 and then another month it can be five or six months before the officer gets a decision

01:17:13.960 --> 01:17:20.000
 a hearing examiner's award is final and binding on the city and the officer and it can only

01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:25.920
 be appealed to district court under very limited circumstances and those are the hearing examiner

01:17:25.920 --> 01:17:31.820
 lacked jurisdiction which means they had no authority to hear the case they exceeded their

01:17:31.820 --> 01:17:38.320
 jurisdiction meaning they did something that they weren't allowed to or the judgment was

01:17:38.320 --> 01:17:43.760
 procured by fraud or collusion or some unlawful means the officer bribed the hearing examiner

01:17:43.760 --> 01:17:50.400
 and something like that the good thing about hearing examiner appeal both the city and

01:17:50.400 --> 01:17:55.680
 the officer can challenge the decision in court so based on my experience as I said

01:17:55.680 --> 01:18:02.920
 officers always choose this route when I represented officers in Austin and Dallas I always recommended

01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:11.760
 they go this route because they stand a better chance of winning so that's uh that's the

01:18:11.760 --> 01:18:18.280
 appeal process and I'll entertain any questions uh the next next section is then going to

01:18:18.280 --> 01:18:23.080
 be uh chief smith on the data on complaints so happy to answer any questions that you

01:18:23.080 --> 01:18:36.040
 folks might have about the appeal process uh Michael how often do we have appeals here

01:18:36.040 --> 01:18:43.640
 and then to my understanding uh since chief dixon has been here I think we've had one

01:18:43.640 --> 01:18:54.440
 is that correct which which the city one and prior to that uh any ideas the appeal hearings

01:18:54.440 --> 01:19:03.200
 themselves I do not know offhand that actually went to a hearing I don't know and chief smith

01:19:03.200 --> 01:19:11.200
 thinks there may have been one there's been one chief smith tells me okay well uh before

01:19:11.200 --> 01:19:16.200
 chief dixon came was there any any other appeals that you can think of under chief howell in

01:19:16.200 --> 01:19:24.920
 the past few years yeah we can't think of any offhand uh the contract the meet and confer

01:19:24.920 --> 01:19:31.080
 contract does have a provision that says if an officer is suspended up to five days they're

01:19:31.080 --> 01:19:38.200
 allowed to substitute a crude leave in lieu of days off and several officers recently

01:19:38.200 --> 01:19:42.560
 have chosen that which and if they make that choice then they waive their right to appeal

01:19:42.560 --> 01:19:52.120
 I'll try to hold my questions to a minimum so thank you okay no is there another question

01:19:52.120 --> 01:19:58.280
 I'm happy to answer it if you have one well I'm just trying to think you know it's like

01:19:58.280 --> 01:20:03.080
 if in previous administrations there were no disciplinary measures then you would have

01:20:03.080 --> 01:20:11.960
 no reason to appeal and so if you have a more disciplinary environment right now then there's

01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:20.600
 going to be more instances of appeal so one of the one of the slides will show you uh

01:20:20.600 --> 01:20:27.080
 disciplinary actions between 2015 under chief howell up to just a couple of days ago under

01:20:27.080 --> 01:20:33.960
 chief dixon so that might help you uh understand a little bit of the disciplinary suspensions

01:20:33.960 --> 01:20:41.800
 there have been 19 in the past five years um seven under chief howell and 12 under chief

01:20:41.800 --> 01:20:47.360
 dixon so we'll go in chief smith we'll go into that a little bit thank you very much

01:20:47.360 --> 01:20:56.660
 mr kroneck what else does the civil service commission do is that specifically connected

01:20:56.660 --> 01:21:02.440
 just to the police department or is that other aspects of the city as well just police and

01:21:02.440 --> 01:21:10.800
 fire uh they handle things dealing with uh entrance examinations promotional examinations

01:21:10.800 --> 01:21:23.360
 fitness for duty uh discipline uh that's primarily it

01:21:23.360 --> 01:21:28.980
 in in officer green was correct me if i'm wrong you had mentioned uh after the simulator

01:21:28.980 --> 01:21:33.720
 that there's another commission that's made up of citizens that's connected to the police

01:21:33.720 --> 01:21:37.880
 department as well i guess i'm just kind of wondering how many different groups there's

01:21:37.880 --> 01:21:43.200
 an oversight committee or something is maybe what you'd said there's this commission no

01:21:43.200 --> 01:21:49.080
 i was referring to the civil service commission is basically who here is our disciplinary

01:21:49.080 --> 01:21:54.320
 uh appeals which is what michael was just talking about okay so you're the same group

01:21:54.320 --> 01:21:58.520
 you're talking about this and this is the the one group that has citizens that's primarily

01:21:58.520 --> 01:22:03.880
 connected to the police department yes not only us just the fire department as well police

01:22:03.880 --> 01:22:12.520
 and fire are both civil service here in the city uh bo i'm sorry i was going to ask because

01:22:12.520 --> 01:22:19.980
 uh sheryl aren't you in some kind of committee that helps or works with the police department

01:22:19.980 --> 01:22:29.480
 i'm on the advisory committee for the police academy for the police academy so so bo i'm

01:22:29.480 --> 01:22:35.560
 on i serve on the civil service commission as does uh commissioner prada we're we're

01:22:35.560 --> 01:22:44.000
 the two we're two of the three commissioners for civil service honored thanks for clarifying

01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:51.480
 that honor is all mine and i can tell you based i can tell you based on my experience

01:22:51.480 --> 01:23:01.320
 with with both them and uh lily and they take their role very seriously any other questions

01:23:01.320 --> 01:23:07.080
 on the appeal part if not i'll uh shift over to chief smith on the data which i think you'll

01:23:07.080 --> 01:23:22.840
 find very interesting okay let me get to that

01:23:22.840 --> 01:23:35.160
 all you need to do is just use the arrows to move the slides

01:23:37.080 --> 01:23:49.700
 okay good evening everybody my name is bobby smith i'm the assistant chief of police uh

01:23:49.700 --> 01:23:55.060
 it's honored to address you tonight i've been with the pd for 25 years almost 26 years now

01:23:55.060 --> 01:24:01.400
 and i've been in this role for a couple of years this month so as part of my job i one

01:24:01.400 --> 01:24:06.160
 of my main functions is to provide guidance and oversight over the internal affairs division

01:24:06.160 --> 01:24:11.440
 and that's currently staffed with two investigators a report directly to me and of course i report

01:24:11.440 --> 01:24:17.640
 directly to the chief of police and uh i communicate with our internal affairs division on a daily

01:24:17.640 --> 01:24:22.940
 basis i know about every complaint that comes through and and uh like i said i provide a

01:24:22.940 --> 01:24:27.760
 lot of guidance and oversight on making sure that uh procedural justice and due process

01:24:27.760 --> 01:24:32.560
 is handled across the board so what you're looking at here if you can go to the upper

01:24:32.560 --> 01:24:37.180
 left of this slide i think you might have seen this number before the 525 that's a roughly

01:24:37.180 --> 01:24:43.400
 a half a million contacts uh contacts in the last uh five and a half years those contacts

01:24:43.400 --> 01:24:52.080
 generated a grand total of 539 uh complaints of misconduct so as you look across out of

01:24:52.080 --> 01:25:00.200
 that 539 uh 324 of those had a disposition of sustained meaning that the uh the misconduct

01:25:00.200 --> 01:25:07.880
 to that was alleged did occur from that 300 and that's a 60 percent of the the grand total

01:25:07.880 --> 01:25:15.920
 out of those 324 i'm sorry out of the 539 that is 215 you know were from uh were considered

01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:22.680
 external from civilians uh and citizens i mean and that was a 40 percent of the total

01:25:22.680 --> 01:25:29.440
 now just by some sort of coincidence 324 was the number of internal complaints and i'll

01:25:29.440 --> 01:25:32.680
 talk a little bit more about that i want to get to the middle of the of the screen but

01:25:32.680 --> 01:25:40.720
 that uh that 324 is what happens internally most of those are initiated by a supervisor

01:25:40.720 --> 01:25:46.700
 if there's an allegation of misconduct or they witness something some of those are employees

01:25:46.700 --> 01:25:51.800
 having some issues with another employee but the vast majority those are supervisor related

01:25:51.800 --> 01:25:57.640
 and so if you move to the far right of the screen the e stands for external so 53 percent

01:25:57.640 --> 01:26:05.560
 i'm sorry 53 of the complaints and that's going to be out of the 215 were sustained

01:26:05.560 --> 01:26:13.720
 for 25 sustainment rate and then internally 271 out of the 324 were sustained that's an

01:26:13.720 --> 01:26:24.760
 84 percent so again a lot of supervisor oversight in that area the um yeah i'll talk a little

01:26:24.760 --> 01:26:30.640
 bit about that 84 a lot of that has to do with supervisors observing the misconduct

01:26:30.640 --> 01:26:35.120
 and a lot of this is very minor natured so we're talking about things you know that you'll

01:26:35.120 --> 01:26:39.080
 see in the middle of the screen here performance related operation of police equipment police

01:26:39.080 --> 01:26:44.160
 vehicles so a lot of that stuff is just something that the supervisor or the manager can observe

01:26:44.160 --> 01:26:50.360
 and so it's prima facie when it comes to the the incident that it did happen and so it

01:26:50.360 --> 01:26:55.080
 that's that's just one of the big reasons you have higher level uh percentage of sustained

01:26:55.080 --> 01:27:00.320
 complaints internally so if you look at when i look down at our top five allegations and

01:27:00.320 --> 01:27:05.280
 these are the allegations of misconduct the the highest number is performance related

01:27:05.280 --> 01:27:11.340
 and what that means is is that the the officer or the employee was involved in some sort

01:27:11.340 --> 01:27:18.400
 of conduct that is deemed unsatisfactory and so it gets looked at in other words it

01:27:18.400 --> 01:27:25.240
 could be something like just doing the wrong thing the wrong action maybe letting someone

01:27:25.240 --> 01:27:28.320
 that should have been held accountable for something maybe not doing the right thing

01:27:28.320 --> 01:27:33.960
 there and then if you see below that the operation of police equipment and police vehicles so

01:27:33.960 --> 01:27:39.240
 police officers are in cars all the time they back into light poles they do things you know

01:27:39.240 --> 01:27:43.800
 that because they're in cars all the time and most of that is very minor natured they

01:27:43.800 --> 01:27:50.200
 might leave a ticket writer printer on top of a car and drive off in the printer is a

01:27:50.200 --> 01:27:58.840
 million pieces attendance this is very common folks oversleeping maybe you know not showing

01:27:58.840 --> 01:28:03.920
 up on time maybe missing a court date things of that nature now discourtesy is a little

01:28:03.920 --> 01:28:08.680
 bit more has a little bit more external generated it's a little bit more external generated

01:28:08.680 --> 01:28:14.840
 when it comes to complaints we have do have a few internally and then when rounding out

01:28:14.840 --> 01:28:20.120
 the top five is service complaint now service complaint is actually a little bit of a misnomer

01:28:20.120 --> 01:28:26.660
 it's it was it's probably been misused as a as a categorization of complaint and but

01:28:26.660 --> 01:28:30.320
 it shows up in the allegations and most of those would if you go back and read if you

01:28:30.320 --> 01:28:35.120
 look at those most of those going to be performance related issues when it comes to service complaints

01:28:35.120 --> 01:28:39.880
 if you look at the bottom of the screen there out of all of these these complaints we had

01:28:39.880 --> 01:28:45.200
 a total of fourteen use of force complaints since January one of two thousand fifteen

01:28:45.200 --> 01:28:48.080
 that doesn't include anything that that's happened that doesn't include everything that's

01:28:48.080 --> 01:28:54.440
 happened this year we're a little bit behind on some of the just reconciliation efforts

01:28:54.440 --> 01:29:00.080
 when it comes to our our internal affairs software but the fourteen years of force complaints

01:29:00.080 --> 01:29:05.280
 we had three of those were sustained with one suspension and I threw in taser because

01:29:05.280 --> 01:29:09.600
 taser is directly related to use of force but sometimes those allegations fall under

01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:15.440
 the actual taser policy so there was four of those and all four of those were sustained

01:29:15.440 --> 01:29:21.040
 with one suspension we also had four bias or racial profiling complaints and zero were

01:29:21.040 --> 01:29:29.780
 sustained those were all exonerated on this screen here if you just go to the top right

01:29:29.780 --> 01:29:34.200
 for me for just a minute you'll see the five thirty nine that's the total complaints I

01:29:34.200 --> 01:29:40.240
 went ahead and broke this down year by year so starting with that top level data for complaints

01:29:40.240 --> 01:29:47.120
 you can see it's broken year by year and you can see that it progressively goes up particularly

01:29:47.120 --> 01:29:52.560
 in two thousand eighteen and two thousand nineteen and there's there's some reasons

01:29:52.560 --> 01:29:57.200
 for that number one in two thousand eighteen we adopted a reporting system called blue

01:29:57.200 --> 01:30:04.080
 team that ties into our our storage system which is IA pro and Chief Dixon's with Chief

01:30:04.080 --> 01:30:09.320
 Dixon's leadership on this we took a very concerted effort to make sure that we were

01:30:09.320 --> 01:30:14.440
 documenting performance related issues or any sort of misconduct or and we were before

01:30:14.440 --> 01:30:19.960
 two thousand eighteen a lot of this stuff was decentralized it was housed in the desk

01:30:19.960 --> 01:30:26.760
 of supervisors and there was a lot of just discretion that was off that was used by sergeants

01:30:26.760 --> 01:30:33.040
 and lieutenants but we as a concerted effort we centralized it more and we started we made

01:30:33.040 --> 01:30:38.480
 a commitment towards documenting these issues and so you can see 2020 is really light when

01:30:38.480 --> 01:30:42.480
 it comes to the numbers but again we we're going to we're going to have to get in there

01:30:42.480 --> 01:30:47.680
 and make sure that our numbers are caught up so as you go down you can see you can see

01:30:47.680 --> 01:30:52.240
 this I won't go through every one of these but you can see the categories the sustained

01:30:52.240 --> 01:30:59.080
 comes up with the 324 you can see your external complaints as they as they go up a little

01:30:59.080 --> 01:31:08.480
 bit through the the years to 215 and the external sustained and if you go down to on the bottom

01:31:08.480 --> 01:31:11.920
 left there where it says internal you'll see the complaints and they were for three years

01:31:11.920 --> 01:31:17.920
 in a row by just sheer coincidence it was 58 is the number that came up all three years

01:31:17.920 --> 01:31:32.720
 between 16 17 and 18 and there was a huge jump in 19 to 96 so we broke this down by

01:31:32.720 --> 01:31:38.080
 race when we looked at it and when it comes to our total complaints that were external

01:31:38.080 --> 01:31:45.840
 that was 215 46 of those complaints were final filed by black citizens 17 by hispanic citizens

01:31:45.840 --> 01:31:52.600
 115 by white citizens and you can see four in the asian or other classification and then

01:31:52.600 --> 01:32:04.920
 we had 33 records where the race was not listed or it was actually listed as unknown

01:32:04.920 --> 01:32:08.280
 here is the disciplinary suspensions by year this is something that mike alluded to just

01:32:08.280 --> 01:32:14.200
 a few minutes ago and you can it's a busy chart but if you start at the upper left and

01:32:14.200 --> 01:32:18.200
 you see that there's a total of 19 that are listed there and then if you go down you see

01:32:18.200 --> 01:32:24.280
 a one day and you go across the board that's a one day suspension without pay and then

01:32:24.280 --> 01:32:30.320
 you can see it goes down with the level of suspensions that have been handed out a popular

01:32:30.320 --> 01:32:35.640
 number of days for suspension is the five day suspension as you can see chief dixon

01:32:35.640 --> 01:32:43.880
 has handed three of those out in his tenure and then we had one 16 day suspension that

01:32:43.880 --> 01:32:50.520
 happened earlier this year we've had two indefinite suspensions one of those was appealed we talked

01:32:50.520 --> 01:32:54.880
 a little bit mike talked a little bit about the appellate process but it did go through

01:32:54.880 --> 01:33:03.120
 the appeal process and the city of denton won that appeal process and the it's my belief

01:33:03.120 --> 01:33:07.840
 that that that that happened because of the the system that chief dixon has put in place

01:33:07.840 --> 01:33:18.200
 with our with our disciplinary review and so this is a breakdown of the other types

01:33:18.200 --> 01:33:23.120
 of disciplinary corrective action if you go to the upper left with me you'll see the top

01:33:23.120 --> 01:33:27.840
 three that say verbal counseling documented counseling and written reprimand that's a

01:33:27.840 --> 01:33:33.200
 hierarchy right there those three verbal counseling is the equivalent to coaching this is for

01:33:33.200 --> 01:33:38.240
 very minor issues somebody like i said maybe somebody walked in five ten minutes late for

01:33:38.240 --> 01:33:43.400
 work one day and it's their first time a lot of those will result just verbal counseling

01:33:43.400 --> 01:33:46.280
 then you get to documented counseling and that's a little bit that's a little bit more

01:33:46.280 --> 01:33:52.720
 serious it's it's uh you really kind of spell out what happened you you really try to work

01:33:52.720 --> 01:33:57.920
 with a person to try to fix it and uh but it's we just need to document it a little

01:33:57.920 --> 01:34:02.560
 bit more and then you get to written reprimand which is one step below with suspension and

01:34:02.560 --> 01:34:06.640
 the written reprimand has pretty serious language on it about what will happen if you don't

01:34:06.640 --> 01:34:13.240
 correct the behavior then you have performance improvement plans uh we we actually call these

01:34:13.240 --> 01:34:18.920
 epips it stands for employee performance improvement plan and we've uh we've gotten a little bit

01:34:18.920 --> 01:34:23.520
 more it's been a little bit more robust in the last two years and we're using that to

01:34:23.520 --> 01:34:29.680
 try to correct officers performance and then we also have a number of training dispositions

01:34:29.680 --> 01:34:33.640
 where we're getting making sure folks are are getting the training they need when they

01:34:33.640 --> 01:34:41.480
 have some issues and uh we also had 21 cases where the action taken was not listed so we're

01:34:41.480 --> 01:34:45.560
 going to have to go back through those and double check everything through an audit we've

01:34:45.560 --> 01:34:53.600
 been auditing it in any way but we need to go back and double check all of that i don't

01:34:53.600 --> 01:35:03.360
 know what's supposed to be there but okay with that i'll open it up for any questions

01:35:03.360 --> 01:35:16.080
 i have a question um on on the um like verbal counseling or the documented counseling um

01:35:16.080 --> 01:35:22.120
 would would it be fair to say that maybe uh some of these disciplinarian acts are for

01:35:22.120 --> 01:35:31.800
 newer officers or more seasoned or is there a right a high ratio of maybe newer officers

01:35:31.800 --> 01:35:39.440
 that would be getting these kind of warnings and counselings or is it just across the board

01:35:39.440 --> 01:35:44.520
 it is across the board but yeah when you're talking about young maybe newer officers you

01:35:44.520 --> 01:35:48.900
 know depending on how minor the because some things are really minor especially internally

01:35:48.900 --> 01:35:54.440
 driven issues okay you know and so yes the whole idea here is to bring people to the

01:35:54.440 --> 01:35:59.080
 point where they perform at a high rate at very high standards and so it's like anything

01:35:59.080 --> 01:36:02.560
 else in life you got to coach people and you got to give an opportunity you got to give

01:36:02.560 --> 01:36:09.200
 them an opportunity to to improve their performance so you can't come down too hard on these minor

01:36:09.200 --> 01:36:13.560
 nature things because you end up you may end up tearing the employee down their goal is

01:36:13.560 --> 01:36:23.900
 to get a really high operating employee okay thank you anybody else yeah i have a question

01:36:23.900 --> 01:36:30.200
 or a comment um i'd be really interested just in the 14 use of force complaints um since

01:36:30.200 --> 01:36:36.680
 this is the purpose of this committee if um be further elaborated on i know that yes i

01:36:36.680 --> 01:36:44.160
 said it's since 2015 but i'd like to see a breakdown by year uh i'd like to see who uh

01:36:44.160 --> 01:36:50.080
 who brought that up for attention was it an internal or an external um who's the one that

01:36:50.080 --> 01:36:56.680
 brought that up and who investigated who decided that only one of the one of those um complaint

01:36:56.680 --> 01:37:02.600
 should be held upheld and then what was the consequence you're talking about so the use

01:37:02.600 --> 01:37:09.480
 of force right 14 the and if you wanted to add the taser one in there i mean that makes

01:37:09.480 --> 01:37:15.480
 18 but but specifically the 14 use of work for uh force complaints right no i actually

01:37:15.480 --> 01:37:20.480
 went through every one of those 14 and i looked at them and um you know there was three that

01:37:20.480 --> 01:37:24.720
 were sustained and all three of those were captured through internal review in other

01:37:24.720 --> 01:37:29.680
 words the supervisor doing his or her job saw something ran it up the chain of command

01:37:29.680 --> 01:37:35.680
 and made sure that it was investigated properly now if you look at the other 11 some of those

01:37:35.680 --> 01:37:41.440
 uh for instance there was a couple of those instances where the officer placed his or

01:37:41.440 --> 01:37:46.320
 her hand on a on a person just to stop their movement and they were trying to walk away

01:37:46.320 --> 01:37:51.000
 and they were being lawfully detained and the person filed a complaint for use of force

01:37:51.000 --> 01:37:58.440
 so you have some of that um you know i i i can't sit here and go through every one of

01:37:58.440 --> 01:38:03.400
 them i but i can tell you that i did go through every one of them and i did not see any in

01:38:03.400 --> 01:38:09.480
 my and and this is me looking at it i didn't see deficiencies with the investigation it

01:38:09.480 --> 01:38:16.000
 would just be helpful for us to read the language uh for us to look at each one of them ourselves

01:38:16.000 --> 01:38:19.960
 i don't know what the process is if we would be able to read what whatever you were reading

01:38:19.960 --> 01:38:24.880
 uh i think that would just be helpful there's certain information that we have to protect

01:38:24.880 --> 01:38:30.760
 under under chapter 143 that's a decision i that's i would have to defer to uh mike

01:38:30.760 --> 01:38:35.000
 and chief dixon on that as far as releasing that information but in general uh you know

01:38:35.000 --> 01:38:40.920
 some of the information i can pass along here uh in the taser you know the taser issues

01:38:40.920 --> 01:38:47.040
 there was a total of four um complaints those were all no no i'm sorry those were not all

01:38:47.040 --> 01:38:52.760
 captured internally but i think the majority were and in each one of those incidents uh

01:38:52.760 --> 01:38:56.880
 there was discipline associated with it one was a suspension and that was under chief

01:38:56.880 --> 01:38:57.880
 dixon's tenure

01:38:57.880 --> 01:39:08.680
 is mr konig there so he can let us know what we're going to be able to see with those 14

01:39:08.680 --> 01:39:19.480
 i'm gonna have to think about that because those if they didn't result in a i'll go into

01:39:19.480 --> 01:39:25.040
 this in a minute if they didn't result in a suspension of at least one day they're confidential

01:39:25.040 --> 01:39:33.320
 by law um uh let me look at that issue and and i will promise you that if i if i think

01:39:33.320 --> 01:39:38.440
 you can see them then i'll certainly will make them available to you i'm just not sure

01:39:38.440 --> 01:39:45.920
 um because this is a volunteer committee and and you'll see that this this goes into the

01:39:45.920 --> 01:39:52.800
 whole issue of oversight and what what citizens uh especially who aren't even employees of

01:39:52.800 --> 01:39:58.640
 the the city what they can see so let me let me look at the issue discuss it with chief

01:39:58.640 --> 01:40:03.160
 dixon chief smith a little bit more and we'll we'll make available to you what i what i

01:40:03.160 --> 01:40:09.640
 believe we legally can i just i i just think that i mean i that's the whole purpose of

01:40:09.640 --> 01:40:14.920
 this committee right is to review use of force and i'd like to see what we're reviewing if

01:40:14.920 --> 01:40:20.360
 it's even necessary i want to know who made the decision that it was a you know that it

01:40:20.360 --> 01:40:25.560
 was a simple yeah i tried to grab arm and he resisted arrest or was it more than that

01:40:25.560 --> 01:40:31.680
 uh let us let us talk to michael let us talk to michael and see if we if at a minimum we

01:40:31.680 --> 01:40:38.280
 can put those in a uh in a table format at least to provide some general data um and

01:40:38.280 --> 01:40:43.760
 we'll try to figure out a way to at least share um the generalities of the case if possible

01:40:43.760 --> 01:40:48.040
 if michael thinks we can go a little further we will but uh at a minimum i'll talk to him

01:40:48.040 --> 01:40:53.020
 about trying to put it in a format we can at least discuss jesse we don't need to know

01:40:53.020 --> 01:41:01.680
 the person's name i'm sorry cheryl yeah right remove the person's name i think additionally

01:41:01.680 --> 01:41:08.440
 you shared with us the race of the complainants that were external but not any information

01:41:08.440 --> 01:41:16.040
 about the officers that were involved um and so generally just i understand that you can't

01:41:16.040 --> 01:41:22.080
 potentially release individual records for those 14 in their totality but potentially

01:41:22.080 --> 01:41:29.280
 if we could get some aggregated information that would help us to understand um the circumstances

01:41:29.280 --> 01:41:35.400
 and the background of those situations i think that would be helpful we'll see what we could

01:41:35.400 --> 01:41:41.400
 put together and bring it back to you jesse i saw your hand up sure some of the same ground

01:41:41.400 --> 01:41:45.800
 that's already been covered with other folks that i think for the committee's purposes

01:41:45.800 --> 01:41:50.560
 anonymous information you know with names redacted whatever makes it easier to get the

01:41:50.560 --> 01:41:55.920
 information to the committee because i think we can all recognize the danger in let's say

01:41:55.920 --> 01:42:01.000
 out of those 14 there's even one that's not substantiated that's driven by something beyond

01:42:01.000 --> 01:42:06.200
 actual events and and the damage that can be done to uh to an officer's reputation even

01:42:06.200 --> 01:42:12.600
 if it's just uh putting it out there with this committee so um i think i think anonymous

01:42:12.600 --> 01:42:17.160
 or or somehow scrubbed results or a table or something like taunt said would be very

01:42:17.160 --> 01:42:26.680
 helpful and i just wanted to add to that i noticed that of those 14ish complaints there

01:42:26.680 --> 01:42:33.440
 were around seven that were sustained but only two suspensions so i'm wondering if we

01:42:33.440 --> 01:42:37.920
 can figure out what the action was for the ones that were sustained but there wasn't

01:42:37.920 --> 01:42:44.280
 a suspension um i'd be interested to see what happened there as well right with the 14 actual

01:42:44.280 --> 01:42:48.760
 uses of force allegations there was three sustained there and in that case those cases

01:42:48.760 --> 01:42:55.120
 there was one uh that was a five-day suspension there was another was a documented counseling

01:42:55.120 --> 01:42:58.840
 and the other one was a written reprimand those are the three disciplinary actions that

01:42:58.840 --> 01:43:06.640
 were taken in those but one thing to keep in mind about use of force items you know

01:43:06.640 --> 01:43:12.680
 there's different levels of use as a force that and so uh in in some cases you know if

01:43:12.680 --> 01:43:17.640
 it's egregious or in some cases if it's you know grabbing somebody that may be a little

01:43:17.640 --> 01:43:22.480
 too hard so there's different there's various levels of that and and actually most of these

01:43:22.480 --> 01:43:29.520
 uh i do believe i believe that out of the three uh uses of force i think only one of

01:43:29.520 --> 01:43:35.920
 those was decided by chief dixon i believe

01:43:35.920 --> 01:43:43.040
 and just to clarify i guess i was also adding in the ones around the tasing um and and i

01:43:43.040 --> 01:43:49.000
 just wanted to mention that right you're right so if you add the tases into the that's four

01:43:49.000 --> 01:43:54.800
 plus the 14 that's 18 and so yes and there would be a total of seven sustained you're

01:43:54.800 --> 01:43:59.760
 right i think that would be really interesting to see too like you mentioned what the levels

01:43:59.760 --> 01:44:07.040
 of use of force so i mean if most complaints were grabbing an arm you know were there any

01:44:07.040 --> 01:44:14.080
 that were more so uh you know just if there could be some kind of difference and often

01:44:14.080 --> 01:44:18.280
 put on the table too well yeah i'd be glad to provide that if you know if that's something

01:44:18.280 --> 01:44:24.800
 that we're allowed to do i provide you with the the basic information about it and well

01:44:24.800 --> 01:44:30.920
 i think your your basic framework too because you've got either intuitively or formally

01:44:30.920 --> 01:44:37.480
 when you're looking at it after 25 years and understanding this is not that and i think

01:44:37.480 --> 01:44:43.000
 in general we would be able to maybe all the same information you do to say that but i

01:44:43.000 --> 01:44:47.560
 think just knowing your categories if you've got four categories from egregious to yeah

01:44:47.560 --> 01:44:52.760
 uh accidental to everything in between you know how many of those categories there are

01:44:52.760 --> 01:44:57.880
 that you're intuitively as you're looking at it right that would be helpful just to

01:44:57.880 --> 01:45:04.000
 to for us to i think know there's four general categories i'm thinking through and these

01:45:04.000 --> 01:45:08.080
 three go to the chief and this one doesn't you know right but i also want to say something

01:45:08.080 --> 01:45:12.440
 real quick and i i didn't mention this earlier but i think it's very critical to understand

01:45:12.440 --> 01:45:18.460
 the process by which when it comes to a complaint of use of force it's it's called it's a serious

01:45:18.460 --> 01:45:25.920
 nature complaint and previous to chief dixon the investigator on on a case provided the

01:45:25.920 --> 01:45:31.680
 disposition and uh and when chief dixon came in that was changed to the system that flow

01:45:31.680 --> 01:45:35.960
 chart where you saw the arrow so there's a much more deliberative process and not taking

01:45:35.960 --> 01:45:40.760
 away anything from his predecessor but the process is much more deliberative and he's

01:45:40.760 --> 01:45:46.000
 and the key thing about all of it is that the investigating uh officer whether it's

01:45:46.000 --> 01:45:51.840
 the i in this case would be always an internal affairs officer doesn't make the the recommendation

01:45:51.840 --> 01:45:55.520
 for the disposition that is something that is done in the chain of command with chief

01:45:55.520 --> 01:46:02.280
 dixon making the final decision so um i think that's a key that's a very key point to the

01:46:02.280 --> 01:46:07.120
 process right now yeah bobby i think we can sit down tomorrow with michael and and just

01:46:07.120 --> 01:46:13.000
 kind of see how far we can go um if we could put this information in a spreadsheet that

01:46:13.000 --> 01:46:19.160
 doesn't in any way uh violate any 143 or any of the rules that we've agreed to and just

01:46:19.160 --> 01:46:22.680
 so we can talk through some scenarios with we're happy to do it and i think we can kick

01:46:22.680 --> 01:46:26.680
 off our next meeting with a summary of that data and to the extent that we're allowed

01:46:26.680 --> 01:46:29.440
 to under the law so you've got our commitment to working on that

01:46:29.440 --> 01:46:39.160
 chief at a more general level i know i think gary henderson asked this question last meeting

01:46:39.160 --> 01:46:45.400
 about culture and where you see the department at i know these they're doing it very respectfully

01:46:45.400 --> 01:46:51.840
 but both the assistant chief here and and mr groenig have said you know when you showed

01:46:51.840 --> 01:46:57.320
 up there's been a new chief there's a new sheriff in town people have felt that from

01:46:57.320 --> 01:47:05.920
 your perspective in regards to culture what have you seen systemically in regards to discipline

01:47:05.920 --> 01:47:13.640
 that you've tried to come in and um in address knowing that you know even if it's shown up

01:47:13.640 --> 01:47:17.040
 to a meeting five ten minutes late these are the kind of things in a culture that lead

01:47:17.040 --> 01:47:23.720
 to more disastrous consequences if not addressed how have you viewed that overall and just

01:47:23.720 --> 01:47:30.360
 kind of love to just hear your perspective that they've both spoken to in various ways

01:47:30.360 --> 01:47:34.920
 so i really wanted us to focus on how can we make our organization better and a lot

01:47:34.920 --> 01:47:39.720
 of that comes to supervisors starting to have monthly meetings with their subordinates lie

01:47:39.720 --> 01:47:43.320
 tenants starting to have monthly meetings with their sergeants deputy chiefs having

01:47:43.320 --> 01:47:48.820
 monthly meetings with their lieutenants and the executive team we meet at least once a

01:47:48.820 --> 01:47:55.240
 week sometimes we meet more than that so that's where you see a lot of those coaching documented

01:47:55.240 --> 01:47:59.880
 counseling is going in right there because they're seeing little things and i want us

01:47:59.880 --> 01:48:04.680
 to catch those little things and address them before they manifest themselves into a tragedy

01:48:04.680 --> 01:48:11.080
 because by then it's too late that's when you're looking at what is it a mistake of

01:48:11.080 --> 01:48:17.520
 the mind or a mistake of the heart when people are committing policy violations so we're

01:48:17.520 --> 01:48:22.360
 looking at these more holistically now we're really taking and i'm putting a lot of the

01:48:22.360 --> 01:48:27.880
 onus on the chain of command we all go into a room together i start with the lowest ranking

01:48:27.880 --> 01:48:33.480
 person in there for them to give me what they think what's their recommendation they want

01:48:33.480 --> 01:48:40.000
 they think something should be sustained if it is why when it comes down to days off what

01:48:40.000 --> 01:48:49.080
 do you think is something that you would recommend and why because if our leadership from the

01:48:49.080 --> 01:48:54.120
 top down doesn't understand the why behind the decisions we're playing against ourselves

01:48:54.120 --> 01:49:01.360
 and we're not improving employees and with that every time we have a policy violation

01:49:01.360 --> 01:49:05.680
 definitely when we give a suspension out there's got to be training associated with that got

01:49:05.680 --> 01:49:11.640
 to be tied to it or else again we're playing against ourselves we have an onus as an organization

01:49:11.640 --> 01:49:16.700
 and myself as the chief executive officer to make sure that we're not setting our employees

01:49:16.700 --> 01:49:20.600
 up to fail and if we're not giving them the training they need the training they deserve

01:49:20.600 --> 01:49:28.620
 and the attention they deserve we're negligent in the manner of not setting them up for success

01:49:28.620 --> 01:49:32.840
 and i want to make sure that i don't let this time pass you've got some amazing men and

01:49:32.840 --> 01:49:38.200
 women wearing this uniform here in the city of denton working for you every day two of

01:49:38.200 --> 01:49:44.980
 them are on your screen right now in yancey and travis they come to work not for the money

01:49:44.980 --> 01:49:49.520
 they don't come to work to get accolades they come to work to serve you and they do a magnificent

01:49:49.520 --> 01:49:55.620
 job of it so i don't want that to get washed out as long as we're pleased by human beings

01:49:55.620 --> 01:49:58.960
 we're going to have discipline associated with that we have to make sure that we're

01:49:58.960 --> 01:50:06.400
 doing it the right way which is why we use indefinite suspensions very judiciously very

01:50:06.400 --> 01:50:11.080
 cautiously because i don't want on the back end someone to get their job back through

01:50:11.080 --> 01:50:15.760
 the city and now they're back and they're emboldened even more because they've gotten

01:50:15.760 --> 01:50:23.080
 their job back so i think where we're at now we're about halfway to where i want us to

01:50:23.080 --> 01:50:32.600
 be but we're going to get there

01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:53.880
 michelle i have a question yes ma'am um i'm really interested in the racial dynamics in

01:50:53.880 --> 01:51:01.680
 our city because we have really large inequities and i'm sure almost everybody is aware and

01:51:01.680 --> 01:51:09.640
 i was looking at the slide the complaints by race and noted that it says if i can read

01:51:09.640 --> 01:51:20.680
 this 21 percent of the total complaints were made by black members of our town and i'm

01:51:20.680 --> 01:51:29.480
 curious if you what kind of thinking you might have done about this and also are black members

01:51:29.480 --> 01:51:34.520
 of the community more likely to complain about black officers or white officers have you

01:51:34.520 --> 01:51:45.920
 have you delved into the dynamics

01:51:45.920 --> 01:51:50.720
 that's something that we we have the data on that when we when we're talking about complaints

01:51:50.720 --> 01:51:55.640
 made by citizens the race of the citizen we also have the races of the officers so we

01:51:55.640 --> 01:52:03.600
 have that information and what do you make of it and can't we see it yeah i think that's

01:52:03.600 --> 01:52:06.360
 something that we you know as long as i mean i'm sure we're going to talk about this more

01:52:06.360 --> 01:52:11.840
 but that may be something we can lay it all out i'll defer to city manager and chief dixon

01:52:11.840 --> 01:52:16.160
 on that yeah we'll start the next meeting with both of the data tables from what we

01:52:16.160 --> 01:52:22.240
 were previously discussing as far as those use of force cases and these but the short

01:52:22.240 --> 01:52:28.440
 of it is there's no pattern of our african-american community complaining on one race of an officer

01:52:28.440 --> 01:52:38.600
 or another okay thank you i think um and i don't even know if it's possible is there

01:52:38.600 --> 01:52:46.360
 one specific area of the city that you receive more complaints than the other or is it just

01:52:46.360 --> 01:52:56.480
 a well-rounded all over on um number of complaints i don't have that information right now ma'am

01:52:56.480 --> 01:53:00.880
 that's something that um we'd have to look at to see if that's available to us okay we'd

01:53:00.880 --> 01:53:06.320
 have to look at locations and addresses you know when i looked at this when i spent the

01:53:06.320 --> 01:53:11.120
 last couple of weeks looking over information that is i did use uh just the person's name

01:53:11.120 --> 01:53:16.720
 and their and their uh their race and gender and the same with the officer so that but

01:53:16.720 --> 01:53:21.880
 as far as location where it occurred and address i don't have that data yet i haven't looked

01:53:21.880 --> 01:53:26.960
 at that is that something we we could get at a certain point i'd have to see if that's

01:53:26.960 --> 01:53:31.320
 available uh i think it is i mean this the system that we have has a lot of different

01:53:31.320 --> 01:53:42.600
 searchable data fields okay chief smith i have a question go ahead john thank you uh

01:53:42.600 --> 01:53:50.000
 chief smith i have a question uh when i'm looking at this complaints by race these are

01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:56.240
 people from the community complaining against the police department right for the most part

01:53:56.240 --> 01:54:04.080
 there is one little copy out there that i have to explain okay prior to 2019 uh we didn't

01:54:04.080 --> 01:54:08.160
 have the ability to categorize where we weren't using the ability to categorize internal versus

01:54:08.160 --> 01:54:12.720
 external in the actual number and this is kind of confusing but there's an ops number

01:54:12.720 --> 01:54:18.720
 or an investigative number so these two 15 were represented by the citizens that we recorded

01:54:18.720 --> 01:54:24.240
 in the complaint there is a possibility that some of the citizens uh did not file the complaint

01:54:24.240 --> 01:54:28.560
 themselves that that we filed it on behalf of the citizen there is some possibility of

01:54:28.560 --> 01:54:33.640
 that but generally speaking it is a complaint out by the system and my second question which

01:54:33.640 --> 01:54:39.200
 is related so if these citizens are complaining about the police generally what are they complaining

01:54:39.200 --> 01:54:46.360
 about well when you saw that top five stuff there probably discourtesy is the one in that

01:54:46.360 --> 01:54:52.680
 in that those categories uh but i will say this we can break it down by citizen complaints

01:54:52.680 --> 01:54:59.760
 to determine what their highest level of allegations are but if i i can tell you just from anecdotally

01:54:59.760 --> 01:55:04.120
 from my experience a lot of it is performance related they weren't happy with the performance

01:55:04.120 --> 01:55:09.520
 of the officer or the decision making of the officer or that the officer was just courteous

01:55:09.520 --> 01:55:20.880
 and in his demeanor or her demeanor thank you very much camion who else had a question

01:55:20.880 --> 01:55:28.000
 you have a question camion yeah i did so i was trying to get off mute so i have a couple

01:55:28.000 --> 01:55:36.800
 questions um the first is around this complaint by race uh breakdown i was wondering how does

01:55:36.800 --> 01:55:48.760
 our um breakdown compare to the percentages um of our dentin population by race and also

01:55:48.760 --> 01:55:54.800
 like how it might compare to other cities or cities of similar size and population of

01:55:54.800 --> 01:56:01.680
 ours i'd just be interested to see if we could at all i don't know if you all have the ability

01:56:01.680 --> 01:56:07.040
 to get data from other cities but i'm just wondering how it could compare to see um where

01:56:07.040 --> 01:56:16.880
 dentin's at in comparison to other areas um and you mentioned that there were more ways

01:56:16.880 --> 01:56:24.480
 to break down data around this and you mentioned that you use um a breakdown around gender

01:56:24.480 --> 01:56:31.760
 and race and all of that i'm wondering if there are any indicators in the um software

01:56:31.760 --> 01:56:37.880
 here at with our city that indicate folks is gender if it's not male or female like

01:56:37.880 --> 01:56:43.640
 if they um identify as a trans individual or a non-binary individual i'd be interested

01:56:43.640 --> 01:56:50.240
 to see if any of these complaints came from our lgbt community if that is an intersection

01:56:50.240 --> 01:56:54.600
 that is captured well ma'am i don't think that's actually captured right now when we

01:56:54.600 --> 01:56:59.960
 go back and look at the data i mean this and we've had this system since 2013 uh and uh

01:56:59.960 --> 01:57:05.120
 i do not believe there's a cat a category in there now that doesn't mean it's not available

01:57:05.120 --> 01:57:09.280
 through some sort of research but generally speaking i don't think that's a data entry

01:57:09.280 --> 01:57:18.080
 point in this system that we currently have my question was just going to be about language

01:57:18.080 --> 01:57:24.400
 okay that was um when i was looking at that i think the spanish community it was really

01:57:24.400 --> 01:57:28.480
 low it's like eight percent which is good or it could be that it's not complaining that

01:57:28.480 --> 01:57:34.360
 they can't complain in the appropriate language so i'd just be interested in that as a data

01:57:34.360 --> 01:57:48.040
 entry point as well did you get that chief smith i'm sorry what was the actual question

01:57:48.040 --> 01:57:51.800
 i i thought you was you just wanted some information did you have a question about it though yeah

01:57:51.800 --> 01:57:56.360
 no the question is the question is that whenever the hispanic the ones that you're getting

01:57:56.360 --> 01:58:01.400
 from hispanic population if any of them um have if any of the complaints have come in

01:58:01.400 --> 01:58:06.400
 in spanish and how are those routed my concern is maybe someone wants to complain but they

01:58:06.400 --> 01:58:11.720
 can't speak or you don't have anyone available so i'll just be interested right right i totally

01:58:11.720 --> 01:58:16.800
 understand that and of course we would we would always we always make arrangements whenever

01:58:16.800 --> 01:58:20.360
 we can but i do understand there might be a barrier to want to file the complaint in

01:58:20.360 --> 01:58:24.840
 the first place i totally understand that but um we do have spanish speaking officers

01:58:24.840 --> 01:58:29.680
 at our department and we would always facilitate that somehow we would never turn anybody away

01:58:29.680 --> 01:58:41.320
 because of any sort of uh language barrier yes ronda i have a comment on canyon's question

01:58:41.320 --> 01:58:48.080
 uh it didn't actually get answered about uh the percentage of the races in denton properly

01:58:48.080 --> 01:58:54.120
 um i don't have the data right in front of me but i have looked at it before uh hispanics

01:58:54.120 --> 01:58:59.360
 are about 25 of the population and i think african american or black whatever term you

01:58:59.360 --> 01:59:07.720
 use is about nine i thought it was 11 okay somewhere yeah between nine and 11 yeah certainly

01:59:07.720 --> 01:59:15.240
 a lot fewer african americans and and in terms of the percentage of the population as to

01:59:15.240 --> 01:59:32.120
 those making complaints yes katina if you take that go ahead katina and then john um

01:59:32.120 --> 01:59:38.640
 so i would like to see the nature of the complaints may be ranked by severity are we able to look

01:59:38.640 --> 01:59:45.840
 at that like do you have categorizations where are some of those complaints to where you

01:59:45.840 --> 01:59:53.760
 know like rating i'm i'm just using hypothetically like a ranking from one to ten or a type of

01:59:53.760 --> 02:00:04.160
 or a type of complaint um like excessive for sexual you know just do you have them categorized

02:00:04.160 --> 02:00:12.640
 in that way or is it is it are you able to uh pull that data from your system yes ma'am

02:00:12.640 --> 02:00:19.480
 okay yeah that's uh you're talking about allegations you can you can you can sort anything in the

02:00:19.480 --> 02:00:24.540
 system by an allegation you can you can pull i can figure out exactly how many of each

02:00:24.540 --> 02:00:30.720
 allegation we looked at five and a half years is what we use for this uh this presentation

02:00:30.720 --> 02:00:35.120
 this is what what i was told to look up but you know this particular system dates back

02:00:35.120 --> 02:00:42.980
 to 2013 but yes we can we can look at it the way you described now and and we can break

02:00:42.980 --> 02:00:48.840
 it down by race we can break it down by gender uh the allegations you can break it down by

02:00:48.840 --> 02:00:54.440
 officer you can do it you know there's there's a lot of there's a lot of functionality there

02:00:54.440 --> 02:01:03.880
 thank you john uh thank you sheryl i was going to say that um when you look at the numbers

02:01:03.880 --> 02:01:08.840
 and the african-american community represents around 11 i would think the hispanic community

02:01:08.840 --> 02:01:16.920
 is around 30 and then when you look at only eight percent here i don't know that that

02:01:16.920 --> 02:01:20.280
 those numbers kind of tell you something you know i don't know what they're telling you

02:01:20.280 --> 02:01:26.800
 but they're telling you something that you you have and the white population is around

02:01:26.800 --> 02:01:35.880
 50 i think 45 to 50 and so but those numbers seem to to to line out but somehow we're missing

02:01:35.880 --> 02:01:41.920
 information from the hispanic community i don't know maybe the service is adequate or or like

02:01:41.920 --> 02:01:50.720
 like living was saying we've got a breakdown in the ability to communicate there and i

02:01:50.720 --> 02:01:56.320
 i do want to say i know chief dixon and um some of his other officers are trying to kind

02:01:56.320 --> 02:02:03.640
 of bridge that gap right between the hispanic community maybe the trust maybe the lack of

02:02:03.640 --> 02:02:09.000
 trust to report crimes and things like that i know that there is work that that is being

02:02:09.000 --> 02:02:14.280
 done and i think that that's something that's very relevant uh you're right i mean i think

02:02:14.280 --> 02:02:19.680
 whether city of denton or denny county we're more than 25 just alone in k-12 at the dentin

02:02:19.680 --> 02:02:28.600
 isd it's 31 so i know way more i'm just not why uh you know and like you said maybe the

02:02:28.600 --> 02:02:33.200
 service is adequate but i i don't mean to be a negative nelly but i think it's probably

02:02:33.200 --> 02:02:40.980
 better well i can tell you yesterday speaking to that lily and i had two um ladies call

02:02:40.980 --> 02:02:47.240
 me and we had a discussion for about an hour and they were both immigrants to our country

02:02:47.240 --> 02:02:52.280
 and they spoke exactly to what you just spoke to is how we have been coming uh closer together

02:02:52.280 --> 02:02:56.200
 in the last year and they would have never called the police department for what they

02:02:56.200 --> 02:03:00.360
 did yesterday and that was to help them and in the course of an eviction that they were

02:03:00.360 --> 02:03:05.880
 going through and asking us for assistance even though they knew that they weren't here

02:03:05.880 --> 02:03:10.920
 legally they still didn't they had enough trust in us that they reached out to us so

02:03:10.920 --> 02:03:15.760
 i think we are making some some ground here that's good and i know that hopefully uh i

02:03:15.760 --> 02:03:22.340
 know karama kind of put a stop to it but hopefully those meetings will continue katina so could

02:03:22.340 --> 02:03:28.200
 it possibly be um because i see the unknown and not listed i know um sometimes there's

02:03:28.200 --> 02:03:34.140
 nuance to hispanic and latinx uh communities and how they identify could that potentially

02:03:34.140 --> 02:03:41.920
 be an issue that there's more um that there are more um hispanic or latinx um complaints

02:03:41.920 --> 02:03:50.360
 but that they that there's no proper classification for their ethnicity or you know how they identify

02:03:50.360 --> 02:04:00.280
 culturally if i may if i may i don't know and i'll just i'll defer to assistant police

02:04:00.280 --> 02:04:08.600
 chief but i know that for me uh it'll say hispanic non-white or or sometimes i'm hispanic

02:04:08.600 --> 02:04:13.800
 but i'm included in white it depends you know who's dealing with me um so i don't know how

02:04:13.800 --> 02:04:19.800
 that's done but that can very possibly be what's going on and i've noticed that where

02:04:19.800 --> 02:04:26.320
 it'll say hispanic and white um and so i'm wondering if that if the white um if some

02:04:26.320 --> 02:04:33.160
 of the hispanic numbers are are lumped in with white or unknown not listed i definitely

02:04:33.160 --> 02:04:37.880
 believe it's possibly about the unknown or not listed we're going to have to like i said

02:04:37.880 --> 02:04:41.000
 we're going to have to go through those and figure out what the problem is with those

02:04:41.000 --> 02:04:50.760
 33 records and see so the numbers could change dami i was curious if chief you believe that

02:04:50.760 --> 02:04:57.160
 you have the resources that you need to communicate with our community about how they may go about

02:04:57.160 --> 02:05:04.600
 filing a complaint both in english and spanish and in any other forms or um if you have the

02:05:04.600 --> 02:05:09.800
 communications resources that you feel like the department would need to help educate

02:05:09.800 --> 02:05:16.040
 citizens about how they can move forward if they feel like they have a complaint to file

02:05:16.040 --> 02:05:22.840
 we do we have an amazing well we have a great relationship inner that in the city

02:05:22.840 --> 02:05:27.640
 being able to use resources both with our public information office and with corporate

02:05:27.640 --> 02:05:34.920
 communications here at the city additionally we work very well with twu unt nctc and get an

02:05:34.920 --> 02:05:41.480
 out joint messaging so we have introduced a number of ways for people to reach out to us both online

02:05:41.480 --> 02:05:47.720
 and in person they can go online and send in a complaint anonymously through email they can call

02:05:47.720 --> 02:05:53.960
 and leave messages they can come up to a police department we can send people out to meet we've

02:05:53.960 --> 02:06:00.360
 opened up as many channels as we can but we're going to continue to try to get better communication

02:06:00.360 --> 02:06:08.520
 now because we have other communities in our city that aren't latinx hispanic they come from

02:06:08.520 --> 02:06:14.760
 the middle east eastern asia places like that so that's really we're trying to make them a broader

02:06:14.760 --> 02:06:25.160
 focus one thing i wanted to add real quick and uh on our website we do have uh we do have a

02:06:25.160 --> 02:06:30.040
 spanish-speaking option on our website when it comes to making complaints with the department

02:06:30.040 --> 02:06:34.840
 i don't know that it's been utilized i don't think it has but it's there it's an option

02:06:34.840 --> 02:06:36.360
 for our spanish-speaking community

02:06:36.360 --> 02:06:52.440
 would you possibly be able to share with me what other intersections you

02:06:52.440 --> 02:06:57.560
 you all capture regarding the the complaints aside from race and gender

02:07:00.440 --> 02:07:05.960
 well obviously there's the standard stuff with uh with your date and times we also can capture it

02:07:05.960 --> 02:07:11.720
 by supervisor but it all depends on if the data was filled out correctly one of the things i did

02:07:11.720 --> 02:07:18.280
 find is that some of the records are not complete so you have to you have to fix those i think in

02:07:18.280 --> 02:07:24.280
 some instances and we're dedicated to doing that from here on out but there are a number of data

02:07:24.280 --> 02:07:32.600
 points and i don't have them all right here in front of me but it could be something as a shift

02:07:32.600 --> 02:07:39.160
 it could be a supervisor that's assigned to the individual there's information about the officer

02:07:39.160 --> 02:07:42.440
 i think there's actually information there's some ways to capture some information about the

02:07:42.440 --> 02:07:47.480
 officer's background things like that but i'd have to take a little deeper dive in it to determine

02:07:47.480 --> 02:07:55.000
 how how much quality data we have there did you have anything else specifically yeah i mean i

02:07:55.000 --> 02:08:00.920
 guess i'm just wondering if you all can provide to us the data points that are captured around the

02:08:00.920 --> 02:08:07.000
 person who's making the complaint and the data points that are captured around the officer in

02:08:07.000 --> 02:08:14.840
 which they're complaining about um because it seems like i don't know i'm just wondering

02:08:16.200 --> 02:08:21.400
 what is bringing up for me is that there are i think people have looked it up some barriers it

02:08:21.400 --> 02:08:28.760
 could be for people to feel like they can make complaints and i think that this committee is like

02:08:28.760 --> 02:08:34.760
 likely interested in trying to reduce those barriers because it would just help um with

02:08:34.760 --> 02:08:41.000
 transparency with the police department and citizen trust so just wondering like what information you

02:08:41.000 --> 02:08:45.320
 all might be able to share around that because it could help us in determining if there are

02:08:45.320 --> 02:08:52.360
 barriers to folks making complaints or who better understand who might be making complaints and who

02:08:52.360 --> 02:09:01.160
 they might be making complaints about without like names or anything just like the things you can

02:09:01.160 --> 02:09:08.840
 actually document about right cameron i'd like to ask you a question were you specifically asking if

02:09:09.640 --> 02:09:19.080
 um we can do a better job of identifying the lgbtq community i'm thinking that but not just that like

02:09:19.080 --> 02:09:27.560
 our aging population people with um disabilities like all types of things that's that's kind of

02:09:27.560 --> 02:09:33.400
 what i'm leaning at is like there could be trends that we're completely missing um because of if we

02:09:33.400 --> 02:09:39.240
 might only be and i get that maybe there's limited time but if it's a form that folks are filling out

02:09:39.240 --> 02:09:45.000
 that they can make a complaint if there are sections that allow them to put things about

02:09:45.000 --> 02:09:51.080
 themselves they might right um so that's my thinking around that i'm just wondering what

02:09:51.080 --> 02:09:59.320
 information is captured i can tell you anecdotally that i saw a pretty strong representation of

02:09:59.320 --> 02:10:02.920
 mental illness in some of these complaints as i went through a lot of these and i know that

02:10:02.920 --> 02:10:08.600
 that's a it's a big thing for our community is to to provide the right uh you know collaborative

02:10:08.600 --> 02:10:13.000
 approach to mental illness and i did see that when just in this again this is just this is not a

02:10:13.000 --> 02:10:19.080
 data-based summation it's just simply anecdotally i saw a pretty strong representation of mental

02:10:19.080 --> 02:10:30.920
 illness in some of the complaints something um i'd like to uh chime in something i wanted i'd like to

02:10:30.920 --> 02:10:40.680
 know how many um how many officers like like what's the protocol for identifying yourself

02:10:40.680 --> 02:10:45.000
 like as an officer and how many people that have put in complaints without knowing the officer's

02:10:45.000 --> 02:10:50.680
 name or like without knowing who the without knowing the officer's badge number whatever it is

02:10:50.680 --> 02:10:54.920
 that's a great question and you know over the last couple of years i've been involved in every one of

02:10:54.920 --> 02:10:59.160
 these complaints that come through and and occasionally we'll get a complaint where the

02:10:59.160 --> 02:11:05.480
 the complainant doesn't know the officer's name or maybe in fact it's actually more common to not

02:11:05.480 --> 02:11:09.080
 know the officer's name but they can provide us with the details that we're going to need and

02:11:09.080 --> 02:11:16.440
 we seem to have a very strong record of determining who those people who those officers are so if

02:11:16.440 --> 02:11:20.280
 somebody complains of misconduct and they don't know the officer's name as long as they can provide

02:11:20.280 --> 02:11:24.840
 us with some basic details we'll we'll be able to determine the officer's identity the protocol

02:11:24.840 --> 02:11:29.240
 though for an officer to identify themselves is they're you know they're typically they need to

02:11:29.240 --> 02:11:34.360
 identify they need to say who they are they need to say their officer so and so but if the person

02:11:34.360 --> 02:11:39.000
 demands more information they they like a name and a badge number they're required to give their badge

02:11:39.000 --> 02:11:46.200
 i am curious if the training for officers as it relates to folks with visual impairment

02:11:46.200 --> 02:11:51.960
 specifically includes badge number automatically because any member of the community could walk

02:11:51.960 --> 02:11:56.920
 up on somebody with a visual impairment and declare themselves a police officer so i'm

02:11:56.920 --> 02:12:00.840
 just curious if that's part of the training i know that may not be a question you guys can answer

02:12:00.840 --> 02:12:05.720
 tonight but it is something that's being brought to my mind as we're having that conversation

02:12:05.720 --> 02:12:09.480
 well i can tell you mem that i don't remember anybody ever saying that i i don't remember

02:12:09.480 --> 02:12:15.560
 being part of the training and and maybe it's because it hasn't really come up as much you know

02:12:15.560 --> 02:12:20.520
 with with officers and so maybe you know how things are if something is not happening frequently

02:12:20.520 --> 02:12:25.480
 sometimes it's it's just not something that's that's probably thought about but it's a good

02:12:25.480 --> 02:12:33.160
 point you also have hearing impaired individuals and so there's ways to make sure that they get

02:12:33.160 --> 02:12:42.280
 the information they need to correct me if i'm wrong is this the complaint form yes that is

02:12:42.280 --> 02:12:45.800
 that's on the website and that's getting that's going to be updated shortly by the way we've got

02:12:45.800 --> 02:12:53.560
 some new ideas that is that's the website right there pointing out okay um have you so you said

02:12:53.560 --> 02:12:59.560
 it's going to be updated pretty soon have you guys put those updates on there um will there be a box

02:12:59.560 --> 02:13:06.440
 for people to fill out their race will it be a box for people to like like be more specific about

02:13:06.440 --> 02:13:13.160
 how they identify because a lot of because if these are the complaint forms this doesn't it doesn't

02:13:13.160 --> 02:13:20.040
 like the color of the person or the sexual orientation whatever it may be of the person

02:13:20.040 --> 02:13:25.560
 may get left out in these boxes it's definitely not my field of expertise when it comes to that

02:13:25.560 --> 02:13:29.400
 i don't know if some folks may not want to fill it out but what you're saying is that

02:13:29.400 --> 02:13:34.760
 it should be made available to fill yeah yeah okay yeah oh i agree with that and so that's

02:13:36.440 --> 02:13:45.880
 okay donna donna so uh yes donna diamond on behalf of uh twu um some of the students are um

02:13:45.880 --> 02:13:54.680
 concerned that cultural competency and sensitivity um is not really being really being um implemented

02:13:54.680 --> 02:14:01.800
 in your trainings um what can you say about that well i'm going to defer to chief dixon on that

02:14:01.800 --> 02:14:08.280
 uh i think that's more of a question for him who wants to do that so we understand that there's

02:14:08.280 --> 02:14:13.160
 always going to be training gaps in police departments so one very concerted effort that

02:14:13.160 --> 02:14:18.120
 we've undertaken in the last 12 months is one putting together a comprehensive training plan

02:14:18.120 --> 02:14:23.640
 we're being more intentional more directional on what training we're bringing here we just had

02:14:23.640 --> 02:14:30.120
 fair and impartial policing come here and train the trainer we had 20 people from within our

02:14:30.120 --> 02:14:36.040
 organization we also opened it up to outside agencies to participate in that that is one of

02:14:36.040 --> 02:14:41.720
 the best um implicit bias trainings for law enforcement there are in the country

02:14:41.720 --> 02:14:47.720
 we're bringing them back to teach the executive team as well as community members so we're going

02:14:47.720 --> 02:14:54.760
 to have about 30 of us in that class we're being very intentional on bringing more different types

02:14:54.760 --> 02:15:00.280
 different styles of that because we understand you can't just have one training and then drop that

02:15:00.280 --> 02:15:05.000
 and not let it go it's got to be ongoing it's got to be very directional it's got to be very

02:15:05.000 --> 02:15:09.800
 intentional so in the next couple of years and i'm not i'm not going to speak for yance here

02:15:09.800 --> 02:15:15.880
 or travis on this call but they'll tell you that their training has really picked up the pace

02:15:15.880 --> 02:15:29.640
 in the last 18 months and i will say that cultural diversity is a mandated class by tico

02:15:29.640 --> 02:15:34.280
 that uh you must go through in order to even pass the basic police academy

02:15:34.280 --> 02:15:43.880
 so cultural diversity as well as other cultural classes and to the tune of the way we interact

02:15:43.880 --> 02:15:49.240
 with the public with other types of disabilities are now mandated classes by tico

02:15:49.240 --> 02:16:00.600
 does anybody have any more questions because we're going to just about ended and sarah from the

02:16:00.600 --> 02:16:11.960
 uh this from the um city manager's office is going to um get on and kind of get us where

02:16:11.960 --> 02:16:15.560
 we need to be for the next meeting and the information that we've requested

02:16:15.560 --> 02:16:23.400
 yeah i i have a question okay actually the communication that just occurred answered

02:16:23.400 --> 02:16:28.840
 my first question so i do appreciate that and that was the um implicit bias trainings

02:16:28.840 --> 02:16:36.280
 and how often those occur but looking at the sustained complaints corrective action document

02:16:36.280 --> 02:16:42.680
 it says that there were um six incidents where training was provided can we get information on

02:16:42.680 --> 02:16:51.720
 what type of training was provided for those corrective action pieces yes we'll attach those

02:16:51.720 --> 02:17:01.560
 to that same graph this is mike again i have two more slides and that's it okay i think these are

02:17:02.520 --> 02:17:08.040
 important it'll explain something uh oops

02:17:08.040 --> 02:17:25.560
 you folks had asked can you see the complaints and there chapter 143 specifically deals with

02:17:26.120 --> 02:17:35.720
 personnel files there are two there are two files maintained by the police department on each police

02:17:35.720 --> 02:17:44.840
 officer one is called the a file and that's because it's section 143.089a that is the public

02:17:44.840 --> 02:17:52.440
 file maintained by the civil service commission and it contains accommodations uh performance

02:17:52.440 --> 02:18:00.920
 evaluations those parts of a internal affairs investigation if the officer was suspended for

02:18:00.920 --> 02:18:07.720
 at least one day so not only does the chief file a disciplinary memo with the civil service commission

02:18:07.720 --> 02:18:13.320
 for the suspension but the underlying internal affairs investigation also becomes part of the

02:18:13.320 --> 02:18:23.000
 public file that's the a file the g file is the confidential file that's maintained by the police

02:18:23.000 --> 02:18:30.120
 department and i underlined i'll read it a police department may maintain a personnel file

02:18:30.120 --> 02:18:36.200
 on a police officer employed by the department for the department's use but the department may

02:18:36.200 --> 02:18:42.520
 not release any information contained in the department file to any agency or person requesting

02:18:42.520 --> 02:18:50.200
 information related to a police officer that's the problem that underlined language means that

02:18:50.200 --> 02:18:58.520
 any if there's an internal affairs investigation and the officer was not suspended for at least

02:18:58.520 --> 02:19:05.400
 one day demoted bypassed for promotion or indefinitely suspended that internal affairs

02:19:05.400 --> 02:19:12.920
 investigation is confidential by law we cannot release it to anyone outside the police department

02:19:12.920 --> 02:19:18.280
 there is some exceptions to the city council the city manager and the city attorney and i won't go

02:19:18.280 --> 02:19:27.400
 into the defined points of the law that provision right there can be only changed by the legislature

02:19:27.400 --> 02:19:34.600
 or through a meet and confer agreement and as my last point points out this restriction

02:19:35.240 --> 02:19:42.040
 is a significant restriction on the ability for citizen oversight of a police department that's

02:19:42.040 --> 02:19:49.080
 subject to chapter 143 in the austin meet and confer agreement there is a specific provision

02:19:49.080 --> 02:19:56.520
 that allows this confidential information to be reviewed by the police monitor there as well as

02:19:56.520 --> 02:20:06.280
 the citizens review committee so when you ask to see the files that did not result in discipline

02:20:06.280 --> 02:20:12.360
 i need to consider whether or not i believe there's an exception to this rule or the statute

02:20:12.360 --> 02:20:18.760
 that would allow you to see it so that's what i'm going to have to kind of think about but that is

02:20:18.760 --> 02:20:25.240
 the law and currently the meet and confer agreement does not provide a provision that would allow

02:20:26.280 --> 02:20:32.680
 anyone outside of the police department the city manager the city attorney the city council to see

02:20:32.680 --> 02:20:40.760
 those confidential files so that's all i have but i thought it was important to point that out and

02:20:40.760 --> 02:20:48.280
 the last thing i just want to say is i'm hopeful that let me stop this i hopeful that this this

02:20:48.280 --> 02:20:55.560
 presentation that i did makes you realize that it's not as simple as just fire the officer today

02:20:56.840 --> 02:21:02.920
 there's a lot of due process and contractual and statutory provisions that the police department

02:21:02.920 --> 02:21:08.600
 and the law department has to file when it follow when it comes to the investigation of alleged

02:21:08.600 --> 02:21:17.000
 police misconduct so unless someone has any questions about those last two slides i am done

02:21:21.880 --> 02:21:31.560
 thank you mike okay thank you sarah okay so i'll take the last item i'm going to ask rachel she can

02:21:31.560 --> 02:21:37.240
 bring up the slide so just wanted to review what is proposed for the next committee meeting and get

02:21:37.240 --> 02:21:42.840
 the committee's direction so when we did review the draft schedule with the committee at the first

02:21:42.840 --> 02:21:49.480
 meeting we had two public input sessions so the first public input session is planned for next

02:21:49.480 --> 02:21:56.280
 week thursday july 23rd and i'm just going to add in after hearing some of the committee's questions

02:21:56.280 --> 02:22:01.960
 tonight regarding the data we'll probably spend the first part of the meeting actually reviewing

02:22:01.960 --> 02:22:06.200
 your questions giving you providing you some of that data that you've asked for tonight

02:22:06.200 --> 02:22:11.080
 and then the second part of the meeting for next week would be this public input session

02:22:11.080 --> 02:22:18.200
 so we've proposed it as follow but we'll take the committee's direction so it would be an opportunity

02:22:18.200 --> 02:22:24.840
 for citizens to call in and speak to the committee to share their experiences their stories their

02:22:24.840 --> 02:22:30.840
 thoughts or their input regarding use of force in the police department citizens would have a

02:22:30.840 --> 02:22:36.760
 proposed maximum time of four minutes per speaker we propose that to be consistent with our city

02:22:36.760 --> 02:22:43.080
 council meetings and public input the committee members may ask clarification questions to the

02:22:43.080 --> 02:22:49.240
 citizens and then the meeting would be proposed to continue until all so the citizens have spoken

02:22:49.240 --> 02:22:58.440
 or no longer than 8 30 p.m we do have a second public input session plan so for some reason not

02:22:58.440 --> 02:23:05.880
 all speakers could speak at that meeting they could be scheduled for the one in august in addition to

02:23:05.880 --> 02:23:11.080
 providing the opportunity to speak by phone directly to the committee we are also proposing

02:23:11.080 --> 02:23:18.360
 to develop an online form for citizens to submit their input electronically what we would do is

02:23:18.360 --> 02:23:24.440
 then compile all of those responses and send the written comments to the committee we do kind of a

02:23:24.440 --> 02:23:29.400
 first round to provide you what we receive within the next week but we would go ahead and leave that

02:23:29.400 --> 02:23:36.440
 form open probably through the end of august so that citizens through the next month can submit

02:23:36.440 --> 02:23:42.200
 that input to you for your consideration as you're coming up with recommendations and findings

02:23:42.200 --> 02:23:50.120
 to report to city council if we move forward with this staff will go ahead and release a press

02:23:50.120 --> 02:23:55.720
 release tomorrow we can push it out through our social media channels through various community

02:23:55.720 --> 02:24:03.240
 groups to try to get as much public input as possible for this committee to consider and then

02:24:03.240 --> 02:24:09.880
 the second public input session would be planned for thursday august 20th and then we just also

02:24:09.880 --> 02:24:14.360
 outlined i'm just looking ahead a little bit further so the committee knows what may be coming

02:24:14.360 --> 02:24:21.640
 at future meetings it's kind of an agenda for thursday july 30th which includes more discussion

02:24:21.640 --> 02:24:28.920
 in regards to some of the use of force policies that we have not provided an overview yet so we'll

02:24:28.920 --> 02:24:39.160
 go ahead and take um committee discussion is everybody okay with the four minute time for the

02:24:39.160 --> 02:24:47.320
 phone calls okay yeah you're just so i'm clear we would not have really any other business or

02:24:47.320 --> 02:24:53.080
 discussion as a committee that night we would be simply to hear public comment correct no

02:24:53.080 --> 02:24:59.560
 we go ahead sarah so it is up to the committee i'm just hearing the discussion tonight thought

02:24:59.560 --> 02:25:05.560
 it might be valuable just to be timely to some of your questions for additional data maybe take the

02:25:05.560 --> 02:25:12.680
 first 30 minutes no longer to to take you through some of that data but that certainly could be up

02:25:12.680 --> 02:25:19.800
 to the committee's direction or we could take public input first and then follow up can i ask

02:25:19.800 --> 02:25:28.360
 a question sure how how i've watched some of the recent city council meetings and i recognize that

02:25:28.360 --> 02:25:36.040
 when people have comments to make it can go for a long time so i'm wondering i see that it says six

02:25:36.040 --> 02:25:42.120
 to eight thirty does that mean we're not taking any more comments at eight thirty comments until

02:25:42.120 --> 02:25:50.520
 they're done until they're done and if there's more the cutoff will be at eight thirty okay and

02:25:50.520 --> 02:25:57.400
 then there'll be another session where if they didn't get through this time they'll continue over

02:25:57.400 --> 02:26:05.640
 into the next public session session yeah i just want to offer offer up an option because i don't

02:26:05.640 --> 02:26:12.040
 know how many people might register or call in that we could possibly hear those updates on the

02:26:12.040 --> 02:26:19.400
 30th when we're having more info about use of force from the police department and allow

02:26:19.400 --> 02:26:25.960
 for more time for public comment but that's just my suggestion but i want that's an option well

02:26:25.960 --> 02:26:33.720
 that that could be fine but i think that since you ask it and we're um right in the thick i

02:26:33.720 --> 02:26:38.440
 think we should stay consistent with the meetings and the information that you asked for that we

02:26:38.440 --> 02:26:45.000
 bring it back so there's not a big time lapse in between that and we could probably knock that out

02:26:45.000 --> 02:26:52.920
 the first 30 minutes and then um we would have more time for the for the phone calls and the

02:26:52.920 --> 02:26:59.160
 questions and comments yeah another thing i wondered is whenever you guys say call in are

02:26:59.160 --> 02:27:02.760
 they going to be calling a certain phone number are they going to be calling it through like the zoom

02:27:04.280 --> 02:27:10.040
 it would be uh calling by phone to speak to the committee and that's how we have established it

02:27:10.040 --> 02:27:14.360
 for the city council and for the other boards and commissions and there's just some technical

02:27:14.360 --> 02:27:21.640
 and security reasons why it's very difficult to do um allow individuals to call in by zoom with

02:27:21.640 --> 02:27:29.800
 video content yeah what's the number uh we will have that for you tomorrow morning i don't have

02:27:29.800 --> 02:27:36.040
 it off hand but we'll give you a press release um that we could then share out to the the community

02:27:36.040 --> 02:27:40.120
 cool yeah that's what i was worried about i'm thinking like we gotta want to

02:27:40.120 --> 02:27:47.240
 tell as many people as possible so thank you lillian i was just gonna ask if you could send a

02:27:47.240 --> 02:27:52.040
 spanish version of that press release i would be helpful okay city council if there's someone

02:27:52.040 --> 02:27:56.040
 that's speaking in spanish if you would allow double times for that message to be translated

02:27:56.920 --> 02:28:02.360
 sure that's a great question i actually um just messaged um about an hour ago our director of

02:28:02.360 --> 02:28:08.120
 public affairs to line up an interpreter um for next thursday evening um and yes we can do it in

02:28:08.120 --> 02:28:17.160
 spanish as well for the press release um it are they're going to be uh what's the registration

02:28:17.160 --> 02:28:23.320
 process i know like for the county meetings sometimes it just seems like they are straining

02:28:23.320 --> 02:28:30.520
 a net you know with trying to weed people out to keep them from basically calling in or coming in

02:28:30.520 --> 02:28:35.480
 so i just want to know what the registration process looks like and how easy it would be just

02:28:35.480 --> 02:28:42.920
 for an everyday citizen to be able to call or you know get on the agenda for the meeting

02:28:42.920 --> 02:28:48.680
 sure that's a great question um and we've learned a lot through um having our city council public

02:28:48.680 --> 02:28:53.800
 comment and that process and making sure um it's easy for for citizens to call in so they could

02:28:53.800 --> 02:28:59.560
 call in beginning 30 minutes before the meeting would begin we have call takers that would be

02:28:59.560 --> 02:29:04.600
 available they would record their name and contact information and tell them they would be given a

02:29:04.600 --> 02:29:10.600
 call back and they queue them up so they don't have to wait around on the line for maybe potentially

02:29:10.600 --> 02:29:16.360
 an hour to two hours they would be given a call back cued up and then put through to speak with

02:29:16.360 --> 02:29:23.000
 the committee and then we are able to ask them questions is that correct that i read that correct

02:29:23.000 --> 02:29:28.120
 yes we would propose um to be again consistent with city council that you could ask some

02:29:28.120 --> 02:29:34.280
 clarification questions um so if something wasn't clear um in terms of the the experience that the

02:29:34.280 --> 02:29:38.440
 resident was sharing um that you could ask them those questions excellent thank you

02:29:42.040 --> 02:29:47.880
 anything else sarah uh nope unless there's any other comments from the committee i just

02:29:47.880 --> 02:29:53.480
 want to make sure we have clear direction if we want to take um the first 30 minutes to review

02:29:53.480 --> 02:29:59.320
 some of the data and questions we heard tonight or if you would like to delay that until the the 30th

02:29:59.320 --> 02:30:04.760
 meeting i think that we should take the my i think we should take the first 30 minutes

02:30:05.400 --> 02:30:13.560
 to review the data that we've asked for and then go right into um the calls from the citizens okay

02:30:13.560 --> 02:30:25.880
 okay does that require a motion or we're just going to just uh by uh show of hands okay first

02:30:25.880 --> 02:30:41.080
 30 minutes aye okay thank you thank you is that is that it sarah that is that is it okay so this

02:30:41.080 --> 02:30:49.240
 will conclude the meeting for tonight um we will be back here again next thursday and the first

02:30:49.240 --> 02:30:55.880
 30 minutes we'll go through the data that we requested and and any questions that we have and

02:30:55.880 --> 02:31:01.000
 then we'll go into public comments so i want to thank you all for participating again

02:31:01.000 --> 02:31:06.920
 tonight and we'll see you next thursday