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 Good evening, everybody. Thank you for being here again on the second meeting of the use

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 of force ad hoc committee. We have a loaded agenda tonight, so we're going to go right

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 into the first item, which is item A, the consideration approval of the use of force

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 ad hoc committee meeting minutes. Did everybody have an opportunity to read over the minutes?

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 Okay. We're going to do it a little different because first I'm going to need a motion and

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 a second and then when it's time to vote on it, I'll need you to raise your hands if you're

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 in favor. And then if you're not, then we'll come back and then you'll raise your hand.

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 So do I have a motion for the minutes for the last meeting? So moved by John Baines.

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 Okay. A second by Jamie Blanton. Okay. The first was the John Baines and Jamie. Or was

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 that Pam? Okay. And then all in favor, can you raise your hand and hold it up for a minute?

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 Okay. And those not in favor, can you raise your hand? Okay. Motion carries. Onto the

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 next item. Did everybody have an opportunity to go to the use of force simulators? Okay.

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 I did not. Okay. So I think a few of you guys are rescheduled for another time. Okay. Can

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 we get two or three people to let us know the ones who did go, what your experience

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 was like, Gary, I know you went, I saw you. Chair, I thought it was outstanding and I commented

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 to the city manager that I thought it was brilliant to allow us to go through that process

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 very early in our journey. It's not a joking matter, but I died once. I was pretty good,

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 one out of six. But I don't think you would hire me. I think that was the reality. Rhonda,

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 I saw you leaving. Unmute yourself. Well, I too was very impressed. I died once too,

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 the same killer, but I shot somebody right between the eyes. So I was pretty proud of

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 that. It was really interesting. I mean, really what I thought was every, every person ought

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 to have an opportunity to go through that. It was really challenging. Yeah. Who else

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 wants to talk about their experience? Madam chair chambers, I thought it was a great experience.

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 It certainly gives us a different perspective as to what those officers have to deal with

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 on a day-to-day basis. And I really think every leader in the city of Din, ought to have an

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 opportunity to go through the simulator. Anybody else? Yeah, I thought in as much as the experience

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 was what it was. I mean, I was with Gary. I got shot real quick. Willie Hudson, he gave

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 me a D. I said, I don't know how that's. But I think as much as that experience, it was

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 also the dialogue. We were the last group, so we got to stick around afterwards. Okay.

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 Officer Green, Yancey was there with us and just to be able to dialogue back and forth

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 about different realities that was combined with the experience was really formative and

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 meaningful and fruitful, I thought. Anybody else want to talk about their experience?

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 Okay. Well, thank you guys for participating. And then we'll capture it again for the ones

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 who didn't go. We'll talk about it again about what your experience was, or did you have

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 anything to say or wanted to contribute to that and let us know how that went. The next

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 on the agenda item is item C. Receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the presentation

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 and review of the state civil service law and meet and confer contract provisions related

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 to the investigation of allegations of police misconduct and review of data from the Denton

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 Police Department regarding complaints and disciplinary actions. And it is going to be

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 a little different tonight because after each presentation, then we'll have discussion.

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 So if you could hold off or take notes so that when we, we can just move this meeting

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 on just a little bit quicker and then ask our questions at the end. But Mike Kronick

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 is our deputy city attorney and he's going to do this presentation. And Mike, I would

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 ask that you would tell a little bit about yourself so that the committee knows your

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 experience. Sure. I don't remember what I said last time

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 when our first meeting, but I was a police officer for the Dallas Police Department from

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 1983 to 1991. I worked patrol in the Northwest part of the city up where Bachman Lake and

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 Love Field is. Then went to law school in Philadelphia from '91 to '94, came back to

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 Dallas and was one of the attorneys for the Dallas Police Association, Dallas Firefighters

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 Association, handled all kinds of employment matters, including I went out on every officer

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 involved shooting, which usually, unfortunately happens in the middle of the night on the

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 worst weather. I represented officers in disciplinary appeals and did that from '91 to, no, from

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 '94 to 2000. 2000, I was hired by the city of Austin Law Department to be the employment

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 attorney for the Austin Police Department. And for the next 20 years, I was the employment

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 attorney for the Austin Police Fire and EMS Departments. I was their legal advisor for

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 their internal affairs division. And some people would probably say, "Well, you're biased against

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 police because you were an officer and you represented police officers." I kind of think

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 it's just the opposite because for the past 20 years, my job was to represent the chief

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 of police in Austin, trying to get the discipline upheld. And I was pretty successful. Part

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 of what I'm going to talk about is what officer appeal rights are so that you kind of understand

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 that it is pretty difficult in today's day and age to fire an officer and to keep that

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 officer fired. And I think after my presentation, you'll have a little better understanding

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 of how that is. I came to Denton in April. I retired from Austin, came here. I know chief

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 Dixon. We worked together in Austin for a number of years and that's one of the reasons

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 I came here. And I am the employment attorney now for the entire city. Since I've been here,

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 most of my work has been police related. Not that there's a lot of misconduct, but it just

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 seems like police departments in the cities that I've worked tend to have the most work

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 of any other city department. So I appreciate your being here tonight and I'll try to go

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 through this as quick as I can. So what I'll do, let me upload this presentation. The presentation

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 primarily is going to talk about Texas local government code chapter 143. That's commonly

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 referred to as the firefighter and police officer civil service act. So if you hear

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 me talk about a reference chapter 143 or the act, it's the same thing. There's five areas

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 that I want to cover and as Cheryl said, after each one, we'll have a break where you can

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 ask some questions. But the first part I want to do is provide an overview of chapter 143.

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 So you have an understanding of what that is. Then I want to talk about how a meet and

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 confer agreement can change that. So I'll have to tell you what a meet and confer agreement

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 is for those of you that don't know and how that can change chapter 143. The third thing

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 I'll talk about is the provisions of chapter 143 that are related to investigations of

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 misconduct against police officers, the disciplinary actions that can be imposed, and then an officer's

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 rights if he or she is disciplined. Then what I'm going to do is talk about how the meet

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 and confer agreement has changed that. And the last thing we'll talk about and Assistant

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 Chief Smith is going to cover the last section. And I think you'll find real interesting is

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 going to talk about data for the police department from 2015 to 2020 related to complaints against

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 officers and the disciplinary actions that are imposed. I kind of think you'll probably

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 have more questions about that than you will about the contract and the law, but I may

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 be wrong. Chapter 143 of the Texas Local Government Code. The very first part of it says this

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 is the purpose. The purpose of this chapter, and this is word for word, is to secure efficient

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 fire and police departments composed of capable personnel who are free from political influence.

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 And those are the key words, and I'll tell you about that in a minute, who are free from

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 political influence and who have permanent employment tenure as public servants. Chapter

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 143 only applies to those cities whose voters had an election and approved it. The voters

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 are dead and approved chapter 143 for both your police and fire departments. And I believe

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 that was back in the 1940s, so it's been here for quite a long time. You can see this little

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 note I put here because a lot of people always ask or say, well, police officers should live

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 within the community in which they work, otherwise they're not vested in it. Well, chapter 150.021

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 of the Local Government Code specifically prohibits a residency requirement for police officers.

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 Now, you could, through the meet and confer process that I'll talk about in a minute,

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 change that. You could put a provision in that agreement that officers have to live

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 within the city. However, from a practical standpoint, I don't think the police association

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 or the city would require officers that are currently working here to sell their house,

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 to take their children out of their school districts. But if there was an incentive or

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 a reason to, you probably could put a residency requirement for future hires. It's not in

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 the contract, but I'd just like to point that out to you. So what is chapter 143? What does

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 it do? It addresses the hiring of police officers, the appointment and removal of the police

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 chief, wages and benefits, promote the promotional process, disciplinary actions and appeals,

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 confidentiality of police personnel files, and that's including the investigative files.

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 And the very last slide that I talked to, I tie this point into potential citizen oversight

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 of the Denton Police Department. 143 also talks about mental and physical fitness evaluations

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 for police officers. Now, if you remember on the prior slide, I talked about free from

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 political influence. The purpose of 143 is to prevent a police chief from hiring family

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 members and friends and paying them differently than everybody else and only promoting them

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 and only hiring people of a certain race or certain religion. 143 sets forth process for

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 hiring and promotions that is supposed to establish a level playing field. So that's

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 pretty much what chapter 143 is. The meet and confer process, some of you may know what

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 that is, but there's a provision in chapter 142 that applies to cities like Denton that

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 are over 50,000 that have adopted chapter 143. For cities like Austin and Houston, San

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 Antonio that have a population of over 460,000, there's a provision in chapter 143 that applies

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 to them. But for Denton, it's the 142 provision. And meet and confer is a purely voluntary

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 bargaining process between the city and a police or fire employee association. There

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 is no requirement to meet, there's no requirement to bargain over any specific subjects, and

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 there's no requirement to even reach an agreement. So if the police association contacted the

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 city manager and said, "We'd like to meet and confer with you over wages and benefits,"

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 the city manager has the authority to say thank you, but we're not interested in it

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 at that time. However, if the city manager and the council and the association do want

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 to meet and confer, then we can bargain over wages, salaries, rates of pay, hours of work,

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 and other terms and conditions of employment. Other terms and conditions of employment is

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 pretty broad, but it includes things like leave and benefits, disciplinary actions,

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 those types of things. And if you, if the city and the association agree to a meet and

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 confer agreement, that agreement can supersede or preempt a state law, a local ordinance,

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 or a rule adopted by the city or the city civil service commission concerning subjects

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 like wages, salaries, rates of pay, hours of work. Simple example would be under state

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 law chapter 142, police officers in a city with a population of over 10,000 are entitled

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 to 15 days vacation a year. If the city and the association wanted to, they could agree

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 to lower that to 10 days, or they could increase it to 20 days. So that's just kind of a subject

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 that the association and the city can agree to if they want to. And if the city and the

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 association sit down and negotiate a contract and come to a tentative agreement, the agreement

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 is then submitted to the membership and it has to be approved by a majority of the association's

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 membership and a majority of the city council. So if the majority of the association doesn't

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 approve it, it doesn't even go to the council. I had a situation in Austin in 2017 where

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 the association approved the contract, but the city council voted it down. So we had

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 no contract and we negotiated for another year till we got one. If an agreement is reached,

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 it is a legally binding contract between the city and the association that is enforceable

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 in state court. And just to give you an example of some other cities that have a meet and

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 confer agreement, and this is just some, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, Houston, Abilene,

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 Temple, McKinney, San Angelo, there's a whole bunch of them. And every agreement is really

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 different. They have a lot of similar provisions, but each one is negotiated based upon the needs

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 of the specific municipality. Just to give you an idea, usually I've been involved in

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 probably about a dozen negotiations with our police, fire, and EMS unions in Austin. And

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 in my experience, the unions are usually interested in negotiating over wages and benefits and

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 officer rights during an investigation. The city's interests usually are, they want changes

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 in 143 to the hiring and promotional process, which increases diversity as well as discipline.

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 So that's just kind of a highlight of the law that the city and the contract that the

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 police department and the city are operating under. And I'm happy to answer any questions

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 that anyone might have about either one of those subjects.

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 - I have a question, Michael. This is John Baines. When is the next negotiation for meeting

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 conferred to, or will it occur? - The current contract expires on September

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 30th of 2022. I'm assuming, and Todd may need to speak to this, probably a few months earlier.

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 I'm assuming that the association will notify the city or vice versa that they'd like to

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 discuss negotiating a successor agreement. So probably not going to sit down with them

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 until probably the spring or summer of 2022. - My last question on it is this, at this

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 point is, are there any items which are currently under consideration for that forthcoming contract?

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 - I'll defer to the city manager on that. - I'm going to defer to Chief Dixon who's

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 been more recently engaged in those conversations. - So there's a number of things that I'm going

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 to want to bring to the table this next contract. And most of it has to do with further professionalizing

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 the organization. We're looking at formal education requirements coming into the department

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 as they promote up into especially supervisory and managerial ranks and looking at other

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 ways that we can continue to stay. I want us to be ahead of the rest of the profession,

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 especially up here in the DFW area. It's so competitive up here when you're looking at

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 recruiting and retention. I want us to be on the upper cusp of that.

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 - I will say contracts can always be reopened if both sides want to do so, but I don't know

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 that I don't think that's really been considered at this point. Depending on what comes out

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 of this committee, we'll just have to see. But I think for right now, the contracts in

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 effect and we'll go back to the negotiating table in 2022.

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 - Thank you very much. - I have a follow-up question. I'm sorry,

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 go ahead. - Go ahead, Paul.

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 - You had mentioned that since you've been here, most of your time in your position has

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 been spent with the police department as opposed to the other departments. And that's been

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 your experience in other cities as well, you said. Maybe add a little bit of just clarity

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 to why that is, why you've been given an ordinate amount of time here since you've been here

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 to the police department and then in your experience that that's typically the case

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 other places as well. - Sure. Chief Dixon is trying to make changes

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 to the existing policies and a lot of my time has spent been helping them do that. There's

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 been a few disciplinary cases I've been involved with and then this committee. And then also

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 there's been some discussion about maybe trying to have some form of civilian oversight in

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 Denton. I was one of the primary drafters of the oversight process in Austin. I wrote

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 the majority of the language in the Austin contract that dealt with oversight. So I've

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 been doing a lot of work on that, just researching it and preparing that if that comes to fruition,

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 some of the legal and contractual challenges. And that's just most of my experience in Austin.

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 The police department is really the most high profile. Most of the litigation involves police

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 departments. Police departments can take away your freedom and your life. And it just seems

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 like everything in my experience with the police department is always high profile and

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 an emergency and needs to be handled right away. So Denton is no different than Austin,

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 even though Austin is 10 times bigger. - Thank you. That's really helpful.

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 - Anyone else? - Yes. My follow-up question was in regards

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 to the contract itself. You said that it won't be eligible for succession or renewal until

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 2022, but that it can be reviewed under certain circumstances. I was curious if in your experience

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 you have ever been part of a situation where it was revised in advance of the contract

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 and why that decision was made in that case, if you have an example.

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 - We did in Austin, that happened with at least one police contract that I can recall.

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 And I don't remember exactly what caused it to be open, but we did go back in. We revised

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 it where we put in, I think it may have been some oversight issues, but we also put in

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 a provision where we included or created an incentive for officers to move back within

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 the city, given the city council, the authority to offer some financial incentive to officers

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 to move within the city limits. But anytime you wanna reopen a contract, it's a bargain.

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 So if the city, for example, wants to negotiate a change in something, the association is

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 certainly probably gonna want something in exchange for it. And that's really a management

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 and council decision whether they want the city to go back to the table or wait till

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 the new negotiations. - Thank you.

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 - Did anybody else have any questions? - I have a question.

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 - Okay. - There's a mention of mental and physical

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 fitness evaluations. What are the mental health assessments?

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 - That's a statutory provision where if a question comes up about an officer's mental

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 or physical fitness, for example, if the chief believes that an officer is suffering from

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 PTSD and not capable of doing the job, there's a process. It's a three-step process. The

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 first step is the officer goes to his own physician and we give them the essential functions

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 of the job and the physician determines whether or not the officer can do those essential

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 functions. If the chief questions that report, then the Civil Service Commission can appoint

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 a physician or psychologist to conduct an independent evaluation. And if those two reports

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 conflict, then the commission can appoint a three-doctor panel whose decision is final.

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 So it's a lengthy process. It can take several months. Ultimately, it could potentially result

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 in the officer's termination if they're not fit to do the job. But we always have to take

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 into consideration the Americans with Disabilities Act and see, for example, if it's a physical

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 disability, we have to see whether or not we can accommodate that. But there is a specific

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 process if there is a physical or mental question about an officer's ability to do the job.

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 Okay. And just as an addendum to that, are recruits screened with any kind of mental

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 health assessment? I'll defer to the chief, but I believe they

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 do undergo a physical as well as mental evaluation. Is that correct, chief?

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 That is correct. They go through both a written and they sit down with an interview prior

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 to being hired while they're in the process. What is the written mental health assessment?

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 It's whatever our doctor on contract right now is using. Typically, it's something that's

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 relative to the NMPI. Okay.

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 So an updated version. Yeah. Minnesota Multifaceted Personality Inventory.

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 Okay. I might want to follow up on that a little bit later, but thank you for that.

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 Does anybody have any more questions before we move on?

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 Okay. Let's see. I'll make sure that I get to the right one. So the next part I want

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 to talk about is investigations of police misconduct. And here's a flow chart and then

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 I'll talk about each one. The first step is we get a citizen complaint

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 or an internal complaint, which could be from a fellow officer or a supervisor. So we get

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 a complaint. It then goes to the Internal Affairs Division that investigates it. Internal

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 Affairs does fact finding. They do not make a recommendation whether a policy violation

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 occurred or not. If you have any questions about that, the chief can explain that. They

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 do fact finding. They then give those facts, fact finding to the officer's chain of command

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 that reviews those findings with Chief Dixon. The chain will make a recommendation to the

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 chief whether they think a policy violation occurred. Their recommendation is not binding

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 on the chief. He can accept or reject it. And if the chain does recommend that a violation

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 be sustained, then the chief will schedule a disciplinary review hearing. And at that

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 meeting the chief will have the involved officer present and the officer's chain of command.

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 And I'll go into it a little bit more about what happens there. And then the chief makes

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 a final decision as to whether to sustain any policy violations and then the appropriate

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 discipline. So under Chapter 143, let me say this. One of the things that I think you'll

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 realize at the end of my presentation is, let's say you see a video on TV of an officer

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 doing something that clearly is inappropriate. And that video is sent to the chief the same

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 day. People or some people may say, well, that chief should fire that officer right

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 away. Don't even wait. The video is clear. No question. Go ahead and fire him. The chief

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 can do that. But I think after this presentation, you'll realize that if he does that, there's

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 probably about a 99.99% likelihood that officer is going to get his or her job back. And that's

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 part of what this presentation is to show to you why that might happen. So under Chapter

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 143, a police officer can only be suspended, demoted, or fired. And you may have heard

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 the term indefinite suspension. That's the civil service equivalent to firing. So a suspension

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 is something short of firing. A demotion is being demoted in rank, or an indefinite suspension

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 is firing. Police officer can only be, one of those things can only happen for one of

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 these 12 enumerated things. And I'll just let you take a minute and look through the

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 first six, and then I'll switch over to the next page. And then, so those are the first

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 six, and they're not in any order of importance or anything like that. And then here's the

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 other six. Most police officers are suspended for a violation of paragraph number 12, which

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 is a violation of an applicable fire police department rule or order. The police department

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 has general orders that set out standards of conduct and a whole bunch of other. I think

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 the department's policy manual is several hundred pages long. But in order to suspend

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 fire or demote someone, you have to fit the conduct within one of these 12 categories.

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 And I can tell you that's very, very easy to do. Usually it'll fall within number 12

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 easily. Everything starts with a complaint. The complaint can be the person alleging to

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 be the victim of the misconduct, a person who witnessed it. It can be someone that's

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 anonymous. It can be another city, a police department employee, or let's say somebody

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 calls and says, I don't want, or somebody sends a video and we don't know who it came

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 from. The police department can adopt the complaint and be the complainant. So everything

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 starts with a complainant. Probably the most, I don't know, some of you may have heard of

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 something called the 180 day rule. This is probably the most important rule for disciplining

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 a police officer that's subject to chapter 143. And what that means is any complaint

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 can be investigated. It doesn't matter when it happened. I had a complaint in Austin that

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 was more than 10 years old and the person filed the complaint and it was way outside

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 the 180 days. And what that means is an officer could not be suspended, indefinitely suspended

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 or demoted if the act for which the officer is being disciplined occurred more than 180

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 days before the discipline takes effect. So if the chief fires me today, he cannot fire

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 me for something that happened more than 180 days ago. After that 180 days is up, the most

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 discipline that can be opposed is a written reprimand. So you can imagine what happens

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 when somebody comes in on the 178th day and complains about serious misconduct. The chief

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 basically has two days to do something under chapter 143. Now I'll explain in a minute

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 how the meeting confer contract has changed that. But that is the general rule. You cannot

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 suspend, demote or fire someone for something that happened more than 180 days ago. However,

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 there is an exception if it's criminal conduct. If it's allegedly related to a criminal violation

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 of federal, state or local law and the officer is still subject to prosecution under the

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 applicable criminal statute of limitations, that 180 day clock starts on the day the department

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 discovered the criminal conduct. So for example, if the criminal conduct occurred 200 days

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 ago, we're outside the 180. But if the chief just found out about it today and the officer

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 can still be prosecuted for it, then the 180 day clock starts today, the day the chief

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 found out about it. Now the good thing, and I applaud the meeting confer agreement, that

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 changed the 180 day rule, but not for the criminal stuff. The criminal 180 from date

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 of discovery still applies. But for everything else, the chief now has 240 days from the

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 date of the alleged misconduct to discover. So we went from 180 to 240. And then on top

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 of that, the chief then has another 180 days from the date of discovery to investigate

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 and impose discipline. So now potentially the chief has up to 420 days to impose discipline

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 rather than 180 days. I think that's a great provision. In Austin, we've tried repeatedly

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 to get the police association there to increase the 180 day rule, and they steadfastly have

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 rejected that. So I think that's a great extension. And again, as I mentioned, that extension

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 does not apply to criminal. And I'll explain in a little bit how we deal with that criminal.

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 And here it is. If an officer is indicted for a felony or charged with a misdemeanor,

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 a class A or B misdemeanor, if that happens, the chief can suspend the police officer with

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 or without pay for no more than 30 days after the criminal charge is disposed of. So let's

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 say we had an officer today who was indicted by a grand jury for family violence, assaulting

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 his spouse. The chief then could suspend that officer without pay until the criminal charge

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 is resolved. And I'm sure you know sometimes criminal charges can take years to resolve.

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 So the chief can suspend that officer without pay. And once the criminal is resolved, then

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 the chief has 30 days after that to impose disciplinary action. Nobody wants to pay an

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 officer that is accused of committing a crime to sit at home and be paid. And in my experience,

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 I can't think of a single instance where a police chief has let an officer sit at home

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 being paid while they're under criminal indictment. Being arrested is not sufficient to trigger

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 that provision. The officer has to actually be formally charged with a crime. 143 has

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 a provision that says even if the officer is found not guilty or the criminal charges

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 are dismissed, that doesn't mean that the officer can't be disciplined because in a

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 criminal trial, the officer doesn't have to testify. The standard of proof is higher in

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 a criminal trial. And criminal trial is determining whether the officer violated the penal code.

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 In internal affairs investigation, the standard of proof is preponderance of the evidence

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 and it's whether or not the officer violated department policy. So and the last point I

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 want to point out is if the chief wants to indefinitely suspend an officer, but doing

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 so would jeopardize the criminal investigation, the chief can protect his right to suspend

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 the officer indefinitely by sending a letter to the attorney general, notifying him that

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 a delay is necessary to protect the criminal case. And I have personal experience with

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 this and I can tell you why that's important. I know there's been some criticism of the

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 chief waiting to impose discipline when there may be a pending criminal investigation. I

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 had a case in Austin where an officer was accused of sexually, he offered two women,

331
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 he would let them go if they perform sexual acts for him. They had warrants and he said

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 I won't take you to jail if you do this for me. The chief of police at the time indefinitely

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 suspended the officer even though there was a pending criminal investigation. The officer

334
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 went ahead and appealed his discipline. He then you and that appeal took place before

335
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 the criminal case. The officer then subpoenaed every single person involved in that criminal

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 case, including the victims and was able to get them to testify under oath about what

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 happened. The officer then was able to use that testimony in his criminal case. So that

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 is why the chief will send this letter to the attorney general to postpone taking disciplinary

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 action because he does not want to jeopardize a criminal case. So that's the provision that

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 deals with if an officer is charged with a crime. In chapter 143 the legislature was

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 keen and sensitive to that. That's why they put that in there. I just want to talk about

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 the investigation and there's just a couple more slides and then we'll take some questions.

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 As I mentioned, internal affairs does the fact finding. They will obtain all the relevant

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 information including any body worn cameras. They'll get the reports. They'll interview

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 the officer. They'll interview witnesses. The chapter 143 does not give an officer the

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 right to a union or attorney during a internal affairs investigation, including their interview.

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 Chapter 143 does not require the department to show the officer any of its evidence before

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 they do the evidence before they do his interview or her interview. There is an exception though

349
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 state law allows an officer to review any body worn camera video of the incident prior

350
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 to the officer being required to provide a statement about that incident. So that's really

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 the only thing that the officer gets to review before they are interviewed. And if you remember,

352
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 I think last time our first meeting I talked about the Supreme Court's Garrity decision

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 statements a public employee is compelled to provide as a condition of employment cannot

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 be used against that employee in a criminal prosecution arising from that incident. That's

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 an important component of an internal affairs investigation because in a criminal investigation

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 an officer cannot be compelled to say anything. They cannot be forced to incriminate themselves.

357
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 But in an administrative investigation, an officer can be forced to give a statement

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 to internal affairs. And that's why the Supreme Court said an officer should not have to be

359
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 forced to choose between incriminating themselves and their job. The meeting confer agreement

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00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:50,120
 member I told you that it can change certain parts of the law. Well, there is no requirement

361
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 chapter 143 as I mentioned that an officer has the right to see any evidence before their

362
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 interview. However, as part of the negotiations for the current meeting confer agreement,

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 the city did agree to allow the officer to have these rights in connection with an administrative

364
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:13,480
 investigation. The office, the subject officer, not witnesses, just the officer that's accused

365
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 of doing something wrong has the right to be represented by an association representative

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 and or an attorney during their interview with internal affairs, as well as during a

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 disciplinary meeting with the chief. But the representative is there and is an observer.

368
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 They can't interfere with the investigation. They can't tell the officer don't answer that

369
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 question or tell them how to answer it. And if the representative doesn't obey those guidelines,

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 the chief has the right to remove that person from the interview. And it'll be continued

371
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 without the officer having a representative present. Witness officers do not have the

372
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 right to a representative during their interview. It's just the accused officer. In addition

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 to that, the contract allows the officer who is the subject of the investigation to review

374
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 certain evidence prior to their interview. That includes a copy of the actual complaint

375
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 at least 48 hours before their interview. And what that means is the officer cannot

376
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 be interviewed until at least 48 hours have expired after they get that complaint. So

377
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 if the officer is the subject of an investigation, we have to give the officer a copy of that

378
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 complaint and then we have to wait 48 hours before we conduct an interview. The officer

379
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 can waive that. If they just say, hi, I just want to get this out of the way, they can

380
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 waive that. But if they don't, we have to give them 48 hours. And I'll answer any questions

381
00:42:54,440 --> 00:43:02,800
 you have in a minute. The officer also has the right prior to their interview to review

382
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:09,120
 any videotape, photograph or other recording of the operative conduct or alleged injuries,

383
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:14,540
 which is the subject of the allegations. So for example, if an officer was arrested for

384
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 DWI and there is an in-car video of the officer driving and doing the field sobriety test,

385
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 then the officer gets to review that prior to his interview because that is the operative

386
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:33,640
 conduct that's being investigated. If an officer is accused of using excessive force and causing

387
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 an injury to someone and we have pictures of those injuries, then the officer is allowed

388
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 to view a copy of those pictures because those are photos of the alleged injuries. The officer

389
00:43:48,020 --> 00:43:53,420
 also has the right to review those portions of any documents in which the officer is alleged

390
00:43:53,420 --> 00:44:00,520
 to have lied or left out important information. So for example, if an officer is alleged to

391
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,600
 have provided false information in a search warrant, then we have to show the officer

392
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:11,480
 what part of that warrant that we contend was false. And then if it's the officer also

393
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:17,680
 has the right to review any report, supplement your use of force report or other statement

394
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:24,480
 that the officer wrote regarding the operative conduct. So for example, if an officer wrote

395
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:31,140
 a report about using force, and it's an excessive force complaint, then the officer gets to

396
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 review the report that he wrote about that. Let me just cover this and let me just see.

397
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 Let's have a couple more slides and then I'll answer some questions. So once an investigation

398
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 is done and Internal Affairs has done their fact-finding, then the chain of command makes

399
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 a non-binding recommendation to the chief on whether or not a violation occurred. And

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 here are the different classifications of complaints. Sustained, the investigation established

401
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:13,760
 that the alleged misconduct did occur. Not sustained, the investigation failed to produce

402
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:20,280
 sufficient evidence to clearly prove or disprove the allegation. Exonerated, the investigation

403
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:27,480
 established that the act complained of did occur. Yes, I did use force, but it was justified

404
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:33,000
 legal and proper. Unfounded, investigation established that the act complained of did

405
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:40,360
 not occur. And then a policy violation, the investigation revealed that the act did occur

406
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 and may or may not comply with department policy, but it was determined that the allegation

407
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:50,640
 and misconduct could have been prevented had the policy been more clear or complete. So

408
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:56,940
 basically, you know, the policy just wasn't as clear as it should have been. So those

409
00:45:56,940 --> 00:46:03,280
 are the different classifications and ultimately the chief has the final decision on what the

410
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:13,720
 final classification is. And then if the chain of command recommends that a policy be sustained,

411
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:20,120
 the chief will schedule a disciplinary meeting with the officer and the chain of command.

412
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:25,320
 Prior to that meeting, the meet and confer agreement gives the officer three hours to

413
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,640
 review the investigative file. It does not, that review does not include the summary that

414
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,920
 the investigator wrote, but the officer gets to review all the witness statements, all

415
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:42,440
 the reports, all the documents, all the pictures, all the videos. And in a disciplinary meeting

416
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:48,040
 with the chief, the officer has the right to be represented by an association member

417
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:54,080
 or an attorney. At that meeting, the chief will give the officer the opportunity to explain

418
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,840
 what happened. The chain of command and the chief get to ask the officer questions about

419
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:05,520
 what happened. And once that questioning part stops, the officer and his representative

420
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:12,120
 will leave the room. The chief will then discuss with the chain of command whether they think

421
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:18,800
 a violation occurred and then they make a disciplinary recommendation. Ultimately, then

422
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,200
 the chief decides what he's going to do. The chief will then bring the officer and his

423
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:31,360
 rep back into the room and inform him or her what the decision is. I know that's a lot

424
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:37,580
 of information and I covered a lot there, but I'd like to give you folks the opportunity

425
00:47:37,580 --> 00:47:45,560
 to ask any questions about any topic that I covered.

426
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:56,800
 I have a quick question. You mentioned that the 180 days and the 240 days that the city

427
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:03,680
 now has adopted, it all pertains or it all has to do with when the chief finds out. But

428
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:09,000
 what if there was misconduct or anything else, a complaint, anything, but it stalled out

429
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:15,280
 maybe one level or two levels below the chief? Is there any accountability for that? For

430
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,200
 the department?

431
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:24,920
 I think I can speak for the chief that if a manager knows about something and didn't

432
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,920
 take appropriate action to report it, I think the chief is going to hold that person accountable.

433
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:36,760
 Is that a fair statement chief? That's a very fair statement. I get briefed very regularly

434
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:41,560
 on a daily basis from assistant chief Smith. So he and I work very well together and I

435
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:47,560
 have the utmost confidence that he'll bring every complaint to me as he should.

436
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,780
 Now I do want to tell you why making the chief be the person who becomes aware of it is really

437
00:48:52,780 --> 00:48:59,760
 important and you folks may, it made the national news. We had a school teacher down in Austin

438
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:06,720
 that was thrown to the ground by a police officer and it was on video and the officer's

439
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:13,200
 chain of command knew about it and they took care of it. The chief of police in Austin

440
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:19,440
 at the time did not know about it. When it finally came to the chief's attention, 180

441
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:26,920
 days had already expired. The chief could not take action because when someone at a

442
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:34,160
 command level knew about it, that knowledge was imputed to the chief and the chief was

443
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:42,720
 outside the 180 and he could not fire that officer even though he wanted to. So making

444
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:49,440
 the day the chief becomes aware of it protects the chief's ability when a lower ranking

445
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:55,960
 member did not take appropriate action at the time. So that is actually a good thing.

446
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:08,280
 180 days customary, is that a customary amount of time? Those amount of days, 180 days, is

447
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:15,280
 that a customary amount of time for an investigation in law enforcement?

448
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:21,560
 I'll comment and then I'll let the chief chime in. I'll tell you what, the chief, he was

449
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,680
 actually I know he was in internal affairs for a while as a lieutenant so I'll let him

450
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,320
 address that.

451
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:35,560
 So by state statute we have 180 days, actually we have 240 here and that's by state statute

452
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:41,000
 in the meeting confer contract. I'll tell you that the majority the vast majority of

453
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:46,520
 our cases are disposed of well before that time.

454
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:53,760
 But it is problematic when a person comes in after 160, 170 days. The department is

455
00:50:53,760 --> 00:51:01,840
 really under a crunch then to get it get it done and people have various reasons for not

456
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:08,920
 coming forward. I'm not but we unfortunately we that that 240 days really is a big plus.

457
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:14,760
 So I commend the department and the city for for getting that extension and then 180 days

458
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,920
 on top of that. I think that's great.

459
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,920
 I have a question.

460
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:32,560
 Mr. Baines go ahead. Are you sure? Yes sir. Are you sure? Okay thank you. I have a question.

461
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:41,760
 We live in the days of video now and I think this is a state and the situation I hate to

462
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,800
 mention the situation but I think it precipitated a lot of things for the good the one officer

463
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:56,400
 in Minnesota that kept his knee on the neck of that young boy yes he was a young man.

464
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:04,080
 The chief there fired that person and as you mentioned a lot of times the officers get

465
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:15,440
 their jobs back and this particular individual had a history of incidents where there should

466
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:23,760
 have been done something done previously and so I'm saying all that to say this that if

467
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:31,960
 these the 143 basically says it's hard to get rid of an officer that has a history.

468
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:38,080
 How are we going to rectify that problem with 143? It's long it's a long answer long question.

469
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:46,560
 Yeah it you know it every case is fact specific. I can't tell you what those 17 complaints

470
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:54,320
 were on that former officer and whether anything was sustained or disciplined but I I'm comfortable

471
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:59,320
 in saying where there's smoke there's fire if I feel pretty confident that if an officer

472
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:06,440
 here had that history that the department would do an in-depth investigation to determine

473
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:14,040
 what the problem is because there's something there so I really can't address that but we

474
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:19,440
 do and I know that the chief will use progressive discipline if an officer has disciplinary

475
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:24,120
 history that is one of the things that the chief will use in determining if you have

476
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:29,960
 a history of sustained complaints and you're not correcting your behavior then progressive

477
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:36,640
 discipline is going to be imposed. Let me say one thing about that Mr. Baines do you

478
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:42,080
 remember offhand what the police association president said after the chief fired those

479
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:50,120
 Minneapolis officers? I do not I'm sorry. He said they were denied due process he didn't

480
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:55,120
 comment about what they did whether it was right or wrong he said they were fired and

481
00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:02,240
 they were denied due process and he may be right now they have pending criminal charges

482
00:54:02,240 --> 00:54:08,240
 but it is very possible if they go to arbitration an arbitrator may agree that these officers

483
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:14,960
 were fired before they even had an opportunity to provide their side of the story so that's

484
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:21,680
 my point that a police union or association while maybe not necessarily condoning the

485
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:28,000
 officers actions will still say that they believe the officers are entitled to due process

486
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:35,000
 so I guess time will tell what will happen with those cases. Did I answer your question?

487
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:40,320
 I think you did it's a it's we're in a very difficult environment right now we're trying

488
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:46,520
 to come up with policy and an approach that you know it's going to be difficult to take

489
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:51,520
 care of everything one size will not fit all but I think we're making the effort to do

490
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:56,200
 the right thing. And one thing that you will see when Chief Smith gets to the disciplinary

491
00:54:56,200 --> 00:55:02,720
 part of this the Chief Dixon has a I believe a different philosophy on discipline than

492
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:08,160
 his predecessor so I think the message will get out there that officers realize that there's

493
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:13,360
 a new sheriff in town so to speak and that white what might have been tolerated in a

494
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:21,360
 prior administration is not the way it's going to be handled with this administration.

495
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:32,940
 Thank you thank you very much. My question is along similar lines it's in regards to

496
00:55:32,940 --> 00:55:38,480
 records of officers that may be transferring or desiring employment in the Denton Police

497
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:44,440
 Department who may have experience elsewhere in North Texas or across the country. I'm

498
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:52,720
 curious what sort of documentation can be shared or is shared if I'm a police officer

499
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:57,680
 in a neighboring North Texas community or from some other state and I transfer here

500
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:04,400
 or have a desire to work for Chief Dixon what kind of record or history are you provided

501
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:10,480
 with as to how many of these types of complaints and the outcomes of their complaints understanding

502
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:15,200
 that there are differences and nuances across the country some of the conversation that

503
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:21,240
 we had in our first meeting was about general employment retention and things like that

504
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:26,880
 and so I'm curious how do we learn as our community if the people that we are potentially

505
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:35,600
 hiring come with some history of complaint. Let me see the Chief Dixon or maybe Chief

506
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:41,320
 Smith can answer that a little bit better than I can. Sure so we have our recruiting

507
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,920
 officers that will do complete backgrounds no one can just summarily transfer here they

508
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:50,040
 have to go through the entire hiring process like everyone else. Now if they're a prior

509
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:55,120
 service officer recruiting will go over to that department they'll look at their file

510
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,320
 whatever they're allowed to look at by law they'll go in there and look at their internal

511
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:03,720
 affairs history if there is one and if there's one from out of state where we can't get that

512
00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:08,520
 information we'll send them up to wherever that department is to do it in person because

513
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:13,600
 it is important to me that when we're hiring people that they're reflective of the type

514
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:20,240
 of human beings we want working for all of you so we're not going to skimp and cut corners

515
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:26,800
 when we're hiring folks. When you look at us having a test the civil service exam we'll

516
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:33,840
 typically have between 70 and 80 people show up we'll end up with a list of 40 or 45 and

517
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:40,960
 from that 45 we typically may be higher six to ten so we're not just hiring everybody

518
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:47,960
 that comes looking for a job. I can tell you that unfortunately not every police department

519
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:55,600
 is as diligent as Denton is in checking officers prior backgrounds so officers are they call

520
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:06,620
 them gypsy cops I think sometimes able to go from one department to another.

521
00:58:06,620 --> 00:58:11,320
 I've got another question we last time and some of you can help me out with this in chief

522
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:17,560
 maybe you can speak to it we talked about and I can't remember if it was specifically

523
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:22,440
 with use of force situations that that eventually comes to you and you make the determination

524
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:31,640
 and one of the points of conversation that we had was around the potential of those outside

525
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:35,960
 of the department being a part of that committee that decides whether that goes to the next

526
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,040
 step you remember this conversation from the first meeting.

527
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:45,780
 I do so we have a use of force committee that meets but in lieu of that the entire chain

528
00:58:45,780 --> 00:58:52,600
 of command reviews every use of force all the way up to assistant chief Smith as you'll

529
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:57,720
 see when he does his presentation in a minute the vast majority of our internal affairs

530
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:03,640
 complaints are internally driven meaning that we catch a lot of things even more things

531
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:09,360
 than we would get from the public you'll also see that when the public calls and makes a

532
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:16,380
 complaint we typically find more violations that come out of just that one complaint that

533
00:59:16,380 --> 00:59:22,700
 we see when we're looking over the the entire call itself okay so I guess my question was

534
00:59:22,700 --> 00:59:29,120
 what we were talking about in the last meeting was more specifically focused on use of force

535
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:34,480
 situations I was just wondering how that squares with the flow chart that you showed Mr. Kronig

536
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,940
 like that's the same thing so if someone sees a use of force that doesn't look right to

537
00:59:38,940 --> 00:59:45,080
 them they will send that up to chief Smith he'll bring it to me he and I will look at

538
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:50,160
 it ourselves if there's a violation there we'll open up an internal affairs investigation

539
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:55,120
 on it and then I'll run through that same exact process as it was laid out okay so what

540
00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:00,360
 we were talking about last time was even it was more toward the front end of the flow

541
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:04,680
 chart where the arrow was it was like right deciding if it needs to even move forward

542
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,960
 and be investigated and some of the people in the committee here were saying perhaps

543
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:13,840
 on use of force situations it'd be good to have community members but that was at the

544
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:27,320
 beginning of the flow chart okay thanks I think when I remember having that conversation

545
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:32,520
 but and I remember I think someone said we could we could look more into that having

546
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,480
 civilian representation on that committee because my question at that point was why

547
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:41,160
 isn't there why isn't there someone that's a civilian I think someone said it's it's

548
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:46,360
 I mean it would take a lot for a civilian to be trained to know all the ins and outs

549
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:51,360
 of all of that which I completely agree but I think that's something that's it can be

550
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:55,440
 a recommendation the further we go and the more we know that can be brought up that there

551
01:00:55,440 --> 01:01:00,360
 should be some kind of we completely trust in the chief and the chief of police and the

552
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:04,480
 assistant chief and everything but there still has to be some some accountability to the

553
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:09,280
 public I mean I don't see why there wouldn't be Mr. coding if you can talk to us are there

554
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:14,640
 other use of force committees in other cities that have civilian representation I don't

555
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:22,520
 know or is that like I'm part of no I don't know if there's use of force committees as

556
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:30,320
 such I know example for Austin we have an office of police oversight I know the police

557
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:37,180
 department has a force review board I don't believe there are any civilians on that board

558
01:01:37,180 --> 01:01:43,960
 they're all police officers I just not familiar with enough cities to know if they actually

559
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:50,160
 have civilians involved in the review of use of force on on the front end I think I'll

560
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:54,800
 have to find out I was reading an article they had the civilians around there were even

561
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:59,840
 like criminal defense attorneys it wouldn't just be like someone that has no experience

562
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:05,800
 I'll have to find that see if I can send it but is that a possibility even anywhere in

563
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:14,600
 the process that civilians can be part of that process chief Dixon or Michael yeah

564
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:20,360
 I think there's a way I need to look at the issues it's going to really depend on what's

565
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:29,080
 this person's role typically I think you all know there's a body worn camera statute but

566
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:34,240
 there are there are some very specific rules that apply to when those videos can be released

567
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:42,780
 and who can see them typically any in camera videos like from you know mounted inside a

568
01:02:42,780 --> 01:02:49,800
 police car those are going to be public we may there may be some exceptions to releasing

569
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:55,920
 it right away if there's pending criminal and stuff like that but for the most part

570
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:02,320
 videos I think members of the public at some point in time might be able to see them but

571
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:08,600
 it's really kind of just depend on the circumstances but there's probably I don't want to say absolutely

572
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:14,880
 yes but if if there's if the committee recommends that and there's a way to legally do it I

573
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:22,440
 certainly don't think the city manager or the chief would have an objection to that

574
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:31,960
 so are those videos public information in car videos are but again the the department

575
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,120
 or the district attorney could not want to release them if they think it's going to affect

576
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:42,980
 a pending criminal case that's in car videos and again the body one camera has a specific

577
01:03:42,980 --> 01:03:49,220
 statute with those videos can only be released under certain circumstances and certain criteria

578
01:03:49,220 --> 01:03:56,640
 that kind of the general rule is all information in the hands of the city is public that's

579
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:06,240
 the general rule except and then there's some exceptions so we would need to know specifically

580
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:16,680
 what is public information and what is not if we were going to go that route if you tell

581
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:23,080
 me when when this panel comes to making recommendations I think you just need to be as specific as

582
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:30,240
 you can what you want to see and why and then we can we can all look at it and determine

583
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:36,320
 whether we think we we can do it my philosophy is not to say no it's to try to find a way

584
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:48,080
 see what works can do it yeah if we can do it we'll find right okay thank you and look

585
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:54,720
 like anybody else says mr. Kovac one question yes sir pulls in other cities where a neighboring

586
01:04:54,720 --> 01:05:00,080
 city or another law enforcement body would serve on that panel where they have the professional

587
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:08,600
 expertise but they're outside of that sitting that police department I'll defer to the chief

588
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:15,280
 I I mean police departments ask each other all the time to review things and to help

589
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:23,640
 out I don't know if chief Dixon's aware of if he's ever done that you know chief I have

590
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:30,160
 not called them in for any administrative purposes but for all criminal purposes we

591
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:36,000
 are not going to ever investigate ourselves I am totally against that so whether it's

592
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,080
 a neighboring organization state organization we're going to bring someone else in to do

593
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:45,960
 those but but I think the chief certainly has the right to ask another let's say if

594
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,880
 you wanted to ask the chief of McKinney to take a look at a video and get his take on

595
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:56,480
 it I think that would be appropriate because it's helping the chief to make an informed

596
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:07,760
 decision so I don't think that would be inappropriate I have a question what is the process of seeking

597
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:15,920
 out a third party look like and how is that determined to investigate a third party for

598
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:24,320
 a criminal yeah like if you are I think the example was having McKinney look at something

599
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:31,840
 or if there's an investigation that's needed that's internal in you would secure a third

600
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:38,080
 party agency what what does that process look like how how how is it determined like you

601
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:44,440
 already have like a list of agencies or just want to know what that what that so for criminal

602
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:51,240
 investigations we have the Texas Rangers that do it now for us here if that were to change

603
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:56,160
 I would want to look at an agency that's at least our size or larger that someone that

604
01:06:56,160 --> 01:07:01,880
 has the investigative capability to be able to do it and is it required that you use the

605
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:08,480
 Texas Rangers or is that just how how were they how is it determined that they would

606
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:14,420
 be the agency well that was actually in place before I got here but there are state agencies

607
01:07:14,420 --> 01:07:19,360
 agency that's used across the city across the state to do those criminal investigations

608
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:24,080
 I mean they do public corruption investigations they're charged with that in the state of

609
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:29,480
 Texas they're charged with doing criminal investigations anyway so it's a natural fit

610
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:35,600
 okay I mean we could use the Dayton County Sheriff's Office I don't know if the next

611
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:39,000
 biggest city around here would be Louisville or somewhere like that but I haven't really

612
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:47,720
 had to do that I will say from an administrative standpoint the Internal Affairs Division of

613
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:52,720
 the Denton Police Department does not have to be the only body or is not the only body

614
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:59,540
 that can investigate administratively both the contract and the law define an investigator

615
01:07:59,540 --> 01:08:08,160
 is an employee or agent of the city so if if there was the city manager has the authority

616
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:16,640
 and the chief to request someone from outside the city conduct an administrative investigation

617
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:22,940
 and that may be where there's may just depend on the facts may involve if I'll pick on assistant

618
01:08:22,940 --> 01:08:28,680
 chief Smith if for example he was accused of doing something wrong I don't think Chief

619
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:33,760
 Dixon is going to have his Internal Affairs Division he might but investigate an assistant

620
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:39,640
 chief he may want to ask the city manager or the city manager may decide on his own

621
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:44,560
 to hire someone outside the city to do that investigation because it involves a high ranking

622
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:53,680
 member of the police department but we all know chief Smith would never do anything to

623
01:08:53,680 --> 01:09:06,880
 warrant that so okay unless somebody has anything else I'll move on to the next part of my presentation

624
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:20,880
 let me and chief Smith will be up in about about two minutes so so let's say that the

625
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:26,840
 Internal Affairs does an investigation there's policy violations sustained here's the different

626
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:33,320
 types of discipline under chapter 143 that can be imposed a written reprimand now there

627
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:39,320
 are things lower than that like oral counseling and you know training but training really

628
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:45,160
 isn't discipline in a sense but this is really the formal types of discipline a written reprimand

629
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:53,600
 which can't be appealed a temporary suspension of 1 to 15 days which the officer can appeal

630
01:09:53,600 --> 01:10:00,520
 an agreed suspension of 16 to 90 days and what that means is the officer and the chief

631
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:06,760
 agree that the officer is going to be suspended anywhere from 16 to 90 days and since they're

632
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:14,000
 agreeing to that that can't be appealed and then indefinite suspension as I said is equivalent

633
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:21,560
 to termination that can be appealed the chief also has at his disposal of demotion and that

634
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:27,440
 can be disciplinary in nature or can be performance related there's two types of demotions one

635
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:42,640
 is a voluntary where the officer can agree that the officer can agree to be demoted and

636
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:49,360
 if an agreed demotion or a voluntary demotion you can't appeal it the other one is an involuntary

637
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:58,160
 demotion and that can be appealed so let's say if a police officer violated policy the

638
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:03,480
 chief can chief has a lot of options the chief can suspend the person and demote him he can

639
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:09,360
 do both or he can do one or just the other but if the chief just says you're a sergeant

640
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:13,560
 and you violated policy I'm not going to suspend you but I don't think you should be a sergeant

641
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:20,440
 anymore and the sergeant refuses to take a voluntary demotion then the chief recommends

642
01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:27,840
 to the civil service commission an involuntary demotion and then we have to have a hearing

643
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:34,480
 and the commission or a hearing examiner and I'll explain that in the next slide has to

644
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:42,080
 approve it and until the commission or a hearing examiner approves that demotion the sergeant

645
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:49,840
 keeps his rank and keeps his pay however the chief can reassign that sergeant's duties

646
01:11:49,840 --> 01:12:03,160
 during that interim period a lot of people wonder what can discipline be used for a discipline

647
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:09,560
 can be considered by the chief for promotional purposes so when someone takes a promotional

648
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:16,180
 exam and is up for promotion the chief has a right to consider that disciplinary history

649
01:12:16,180 --> 01:12:22,000
 in deciding whether to promote that person if the chief decides not to promote that person

650
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:28,400
 and bypasses him or her for promotion that bypass decision can be appealed to the civil

651
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:37,440
 service commission or a hearing examiner so here's the different types of discipline

652
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:42,880
 and here's the appeal process there's just two more this slide and one more so if an

653
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:53,520
 officer is suspended from 1 to 15 days involuntarily demoted or by path indefinite suspension or

654
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:59,400
 bypass for a promotion the person can appeal to either the civil service commission which

655
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:06,040
 is a three-member commission here in the city or to a hearing examiner a lot of times referred

656
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:13,600
 to by arbitrators that is purely the officer's choice the officer can decide whether they

657
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:21,440
 want to appeal to the commission or a hearing examiner and here's the difference the commission

658
01:13:21,440 --> 01:13:27,040
 it is composed of three citizen volunteers like yourselves a hearing to the commission

659
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:32,840
 must be held within 30 days after the appeal is filed unless the officer and the commission

660
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:41,560
 agreed to postpone it the commission can subpoena documents and witnesses if an officer chooses

661
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:46,120
 a commission they may choose it because it doesn't cost them anything the commission

662
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:53,040
 appeal is free however if the officer wants a lawyer they have to pay for that themselves

663
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:58,760
 a decision by the commission requires a majority vote so if thought three commissioners are

664
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:03,800
 present at least two of them have to vote if only two of them are present which is a

665
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:10,400
 quorum then it has to be a two-to-nothing vote the city has the burden in a disciplinary

666
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:15,780
 case the officer doesn't have to prove that he or she didn't do it the department has

667
01:14:15,780 --> 01:14:22,120
 to prove that they did the authority of the commission in a disciplinary appeal they can

668
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:28,840
 overturn the discipline in its entirety they can modify it they can only let decrease it

669
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:35,840
 they cannot increase it or they can deny the appeal altogether and uphold the discipline

670
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:40,880
 commission has a hearing the decision is rendered immediately they don't write an opinion they

671
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:47,400
 just say what their decision is in public and then they sign in orders saying what their

672
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:53,180
 decision is the commission can award back pay and other loss benefits like vacation

673
01:14:53,180 --> 01:14:58,480
 that the officer would have accumulated and then if an officer chooses their commission

674
01:14:58,480 --> 01:15:05,000
 route only the officer can appeal the commission's decision to court and you may ask why and

675
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:11,440
 the answer is the commission as a city entity it would be this if the city suing itself

676
01:15:11,440 --> 01:15:17,800
 and that that the city can't do that so that's one option in a commission appeal but I can

677
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:25,600
 tell you based on 26 years of trying disciplinary appeals the officers always choose the hearing

678
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:34,160
 examiner route because they win about 50 percent of those appeals and here's the hearing examiner

679
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:39,640
 must be a member of the american arbitration association or the federal mediation and conciliation

680
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:45,440
 service hearing examiners do this for a living whereas the commission of volunteers who were

681
01:15:45,440 --> 01:15:52,280
 just volunteering their time a hearing examiner must have experience that hears these appeals

682
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:57,360
 must have experienced hearing public safety and disciplinary appeals hearing examiner

683
01:15:57,360 --> 01:16:02,760
 has the same powers and duties as the commission the way we choose a hearing examiner as we

684
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:08,600
 try to agree on someone if we can't then we ask the arbitration association for a list

685
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:13,960
 of seven if we can't agree to somebody on the list then we take turns striking a list

686
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:20,920
 and the person's name that's left is the person who hears the case the hearing can take months

687
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:27,000
 to schedule whereas as I mentioned the commission hearing has to be held in 30 days hearing

688
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:32,800
 examiners are expensive the good ones charge anywhere from a thousand to fifteen hundred

689
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:42,880
 dollars a day plus expenses the party split that cost so typically if an officer is represented

690
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:50,080
 by a police association the association will pick it up commission appeal is free hearing

691
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:55,880
 examiner costs a lot of money hearing examiners provide detailed written opinions they can

692
01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:02,680
 be 20 or 30 pages long usually takes 30 days to get a decision after the hearing so you

693
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:08,080
 can imagine if it takes three or four months to get a hearing and the hearing takes a week

694
01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:13,960
 and then another month it can be five or six months before the officer gets a decision

695
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:20,000
 a hearing examiner's award is final and binding on the city and the officer and it can only

696
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:25,920
 be appealed to district court under very limited circumstances and those are the hearing examiner

697
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:31,820
 lacked jurisdiction which means they had no authority to hear the case they exceeded their

698
01:17:31,820 --> 01:17:38,320
 jurisdiction meaning they did something that they weren't allowed to or the judgment was

699
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:43,760
 procured by fraud or collusion or some unlawful means the officer bribed the hearing examiner

700
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:50,400
 and something like that the good thing about hearing examiner appeal both the city and

701
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:55,680
 the officer can challenge the decision in court so based on my experience as I said

702
01:17:55,680 --> 01:18:02,920
 officers always choose this route when I represented officers in Austin and Dallas I always recommended

703
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:11,760
 they go this route because they stand a better chance of winning so that's uh that's the

704
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:18,280
 appeal process and I'll entertain any questions uh the next next section is then going to

705
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:23,080
 be uh chief smith on the data on complaints so happy to answer any questions that you

706
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:36,040
 folks might have about the appeal process uh Michael how often do we have appeals here

707
01:18:36,040 --> 01:18:43,640
 and then to my understanding uh since chief dixon has been here I think we've had one

708
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:54,440
 is that correct which which the city one and prior to that uh any ideas the appeal hearings

709
01:18:54,440 --> 01:19:03,200
 themselves I do not know offhand that actually went to a hearing I don't know and chief smith

710
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:11,200
 thinks there may have been one there's been one chief smith tells me okay well uh before

711
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:16,200
 chief dixon came was there any any other appeals that you can think of under chief howell in

712
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:24,920
 the past few years yeah we can't think of any offhand uh the contract the meet and confer

713
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:31,080
 contract does have a provision that says if an officer is suspended up to five days they're

714
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:38,200
 allowed to substitute a crude leave in lieu of days off and several officers recently

715
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:42,560
 have chosen that which and if they make that choice then they waive their right to appeal

716
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:52,120
 I'll try to hold my questions to a minimum so thank you okay no is there another question

717
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:58,280
 I'm happy to answer it if you have one well I'm just trying to think you know it's like

718
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:03,080
 if in previous administrations there were no disciplinary measures then you would have

719
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:11,960
 no reason to appeal and so if you have a more disciplinary environment right now then there's

720
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:20,600
 going to be more instances of appeal so one of the one of the slides will show you uh

721
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:27,080
 disciplinary actions between 2015 under chief howell up to just a couple of days ago under

722
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:33,960
 chief dixon so that might help you uh understand a little bit of the disciplinary suspensions

723
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:41,800
 there have been 19 in the past five years um seven under chief howell and 12 under chief

724
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:47,360
 dixon so we'll go in chief smith we'll go into that a little bit thank you very much

725
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:56,660
 mr kroneck what else does the civil service commission do is that specifically connected

726
01:20:56,660 --> 01:21:02,440
 just to the police department or is that other aspects of the city as well just police and

727
01:21:02,440 --> 01:21:10,800
 fire uh they handle things dealing with uh entrance examinations promotional examinations

728
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:23,360
 fitness for duty uh discipline uh that's primarily it

729
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:28,980
 in in officer green was correct me if i'm wrong you had mentioned uh after the simulator

730
01:21:28,980 --> 01:21:33,720
 that there's another commission that's made up of citizens that's connected to the police

731
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:37,880
 department as well i guess i'm just kind of wondering how many different groups there's

732
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:43,200
 an oversight committee or something is maybe what you'd said there's this commission no

733
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:49,080
 i was referring to the civil service commission is basically who here is our disciplinary

734
01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:54,320
 uh appeals which is what michael was just talking about okay so you're the same group

735
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:58,520
 you're talking about this and this is the the one group that has citizens that's primarily

736
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:03,880
 connected to the police department yes not only us just the fire department as well police

737
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:12,520
 and fire are both civil service here in the city uh bo i'm sorry i was going to ask because

738
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:19,980
 uh sheryl aren't you in some kind of committee that helps or works with the police department

739
01:22:19,980 --> 01:22:29,480
 i'm on the advisory committee for the police academy for the police academy so so bo i'm

740
01:22:29,480 --> 01:22:35,560
 on i serve on the civil service commission as does uh commissioner prada we're we're

741
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:44,000
 the two we're two of the three commissioners for civil service honored thanks for clarifying

742
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:51,480
 that honor is all mine and i can tell you based i can tell you based on my experience

743
01:22:51,480 --> 01:23:01,320
 with with both them and uh lily and they take their role very seriously any other questions

744
01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:07,080
 on the appeal part if not i'll uh shift over to chief smith on the data which i think you'll

745
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:22,840
 find very interesting okay let me get to that

746
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:35,160
 all you need to do is just use the arrows to move the slides

747
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:49,700
 okay good evening everybody my name is bobby smith i'm the assistant chief of police uh

748
01:23:49,700 --> 01:23:55,060
 it's honored to address you tonight i've been with the pd for 25 years almost 26 years now

749
01:23:55,060 --> 01:24:01,400
 and i've been in this role for a couple of years this month so as part of my job i one

750
01:24:01,400 --> 01:24:06,160
 of my main functions is to provide guidance and oversight over the internal affairs division

751
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:11,440
 and that's currently staffed with two investigators a report directly to me and of course i report

752
01:24:11,440 --> 01:24:17,640
 directly to the chief of police and uh i communicate with our internal affairs division on a daily

753
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:22,940
 basis i know about every complaint that comes through and and uh like i said i provide a

754
01:24:22,940 --> 01:24:27,760
 lot of guidance and oversight on making sure that uh procedural justice and due process

755
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:32,560
 is handled across the board so what you're looking at here if you can go to the upper

756
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:37,180
 left of this slide i think you might have seen this number before the 525 that's a roughly

757
01:24:37,180 --> 01:24:43,400
 a half a million contacts uh contacts in the last uh five and a half years those contacts

758
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:52,080
 generated a grand total of 539 uh complaints of misconduct so as you look across out of

759
01:24:52,080 --> 01:25:00,200
 that 539 uh 324 of those had a disposition of sustained meaning that the uh the misconduct

760
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:07,880
 to that was alleged did occur from that 300 and that's a 60 percent of the the grand total

761
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:15,920
 out of those 324 i'm sorry out of the 539 that is 215 you know were from uh were considered

762
01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:22,680
 external from civilians uh and citizens i mean and that was a 40 percent of the total

763
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:29,440
 now just by some sort of coincidence 324 was the number of internal complaints and i'll

764
01:25:29,440 --> 01:25:32,680
 talk a little bit more about that i want to get to the middle of the of the screen but

765
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:40,720
 that uh that 324 is what happens internally most of those are initiated by a supervisor

766
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:46,700
 if there's an allegation of misconduct or they witness something some of those are employees

767
01:25:46,700 --> 01:25:51,800
 having some issues with another employee but the vast majority those are supervisor related

768
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:57,640
 and so if you move to the far right of the screen the e stands for external so 53 percent

769
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:05,560
 i'm sorry 53 of the complaints and that's going to be out of the 215 were sustained

770
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:13,720
 for 25 sustainment rate and then internally 271 out of the 324 were sustained that's an

771
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:24,760
 84 percent so again a lot of supervisor oversight in that area the um yeah i'll talk a little

772
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:30,640
 bit about that 84 a lot of that has to do with supervisors observing the misconduct

773
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:35,120
 and a lot of this is very minor natured so we're talking about things you know that you'll

774
01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:39,080
 see in the middle of the screen here performance related operation of police equipment police

775
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:44,160
 vehicles so a lot of that stuff is just something that the supervisor or the manager can observe

776
01:26:44,160 --> 01:26:50,360
 and so it's prima facie when it comes to the the incident that it did happen and so it

777
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:55,080
 that's that's just one of the big reasons you have higher level uh percentage of sustained

778
01:26:55,080 --> 01:27:00,320
 complaints internally so if you look at when i look down at our top five allegations and

779
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:05,280
 these are the allegations of misconduct the the highest number is performance related

780
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:11,340
 and what that means is is that the the officer or the employee was involved in some sort

781
01:27:11,340 --> 01:27:18,400
 of conduct that is deemed unsatisfactory and so it gets looked at in other words it

782
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:25,240
 could be something like just doing the wrong thing the wrong action maybe letting someone

783
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:28,320
 that should have been held accountable for something maybe not doing the right thing

784
01:27:28,320 --> 01:27:33,960
 there and then if you see below that the operation of police equipment and police vehicles so

785
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:39,240
 police officers are in cars all the time they back into light poles they do things you know

786
01:27:39,240 --> 01:27:43,800
 that because they're in cars all the time and most of that is very minor natured they

787
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:50,200
 might leave a ticket writer printer on top of a car and drive off in the printer is a

788
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:58,840
 million pieces attendance this is very common folks oversleeping maybe you know not showing

789
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:03,920
 up on time maybe missing a court date things of that nature now discourtesy is a little

790
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:08,680
 bit more has a little bit more external generated it's a little bit more external generated

791
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:14,840
 when it comes to complaints we have do have a few internally and then when rounding out

792
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:20,120
 the top five is service complaint now service complaint is actually a little bit of a misnomer

793
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:26,660
 it's it was it's probably been misused as a as a categorization of complaint and but

794
01:28:26,660 --> 01:28:30,320
 it shows up in the allegations and most of those would if you go back and read if you

795
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:35,120
 look at those most of those going to be performance related issues when it comes to service complaints

796
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:39,880
 if you look at the bottom of the screen there out of all of these these complaints we had

797
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:45,200
 a total of fourteen use of force complaints since January one of two thousand fifteen

798
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:48,080
 that doesn't include anything that that's happened that doesn't include everything that's

799
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:54,440
 happened this year we're a little bit behind on some of the just reconciliation efforts

800
01:28:54,440 --> 01:29:00,080
 when it comes to our our internal affairs software but the fourteen years of force complaints

801
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:05,280
 we had three of those were sustained with one suspension and I threw in taser because

802
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:09,600
 taser is directly related to use of force but sometimes those allegations fall under

803
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:15,440
 the actual taser policy so there was four of those and all four of those were sustained

804
01:29:15,440 --> 01:29:21,040
 with one suspension we also had four bias or racial profiling complaints and zero were

805
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:29,780
 sustained those were all exonerated on this screen here if you just go to the top right

806
01:29:29,780 --> 01:29:34,200
 for me for just a minute you'll see the five thirty nine that's the total complaints I

807
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:40,240
 went ahead and broke this down year by year so starting with that top level data for complaints

808
01:29:40,240 --> 01:29:47,120
 you can see it's broken year by year and you can see that it progressively goes up particularly

809
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:52,560
 in two thousand eighteen and two thousand nineteen and there's there's some reasons

810
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:57,200
 for that number one in two thousand eighteen we adopted a reporting system called blue

811
01:29:57,200 --> 01:30:04,080
 team that ties into our our storage system which is IA pro and Chief Dixon's with Chief

812
01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:09,320
 Dixon's leadership on this we took a very concerted effort to make sure that we were

813
01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:14,440
 documenting performance related issues or any sort of misconduct or and we were before

814
01:30:14,440 --> 01:30:19,960
 two thousand eighteen a lot of this stuff was decentralized it was housed in the desk

815
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:26,760
 of supervisors and there was a lot of just discretion that was off that was used by sergeants

816
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:33,040
 and lieutenants but we as a concerted effort we centralized it more and we started we made

817
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:38,480
 a commitment towards documenting these issues and so you can see 2020 is really light when

818
01:30:38,480 --> 01:30:42,480
 it comes to the numbers but again we we're going to we're going to have to get in there

819
01:30:42,480 --> 01:30:47,680
 and make sure that our numbers are caught up so as you go down you can see you can see

820
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:52,240
 this I won't go through every one of these but you can see the categories the sustained

821
01:30:52,240 --> 01:30:59,080
 comes up with the 324 you can see your external complaints as they as they go up a little

822
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:08,480
 bit through the the years to 215 and the external sustained and if you go down to on the bottom

823
01:31:08,480 --> 01:31:11,920
 left there where it says internal you'll see the complaints and they were for three years

824
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:17,920
 in a row by just sheer coincidence it was 58 is the number that came up all three years

825
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:32,720
 between 16 17 and 18 and there was a huge jump in 19 to 96 so we broke this down by

826
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:38,080
 race when we looked at it and when it comes to our total complaints that were external

827
01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:45,840
 that was 215 46 of those complaints were final filed by black citizens 17 by hispanic citizens

828
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:52,600
 115 by white citizens and you can see four in the asian or other classification and then

829
01:31:52,600 --> 01:32:04,920
 we had 33 records where the race was not listed or it was actually listed as unknown

830
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:08,280
 here is the disciplinary suspensions by year this is something that mike alluded to just

831
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:14,200
 a few minutes ago and you can it's a busy chart but if you start at the upper left and

832
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:18,200
 you see that there's a total of 19 that are listed there and then if you go down you see

833
01:32:18,200 --> 01:32:24,280
 a one day and you go across the board that's a one day suspension without pay and then

834
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:30,320
 you can see it goes down with the level of suspensions that have been handed out a popular

835
01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:35,640
 number of days for suspension is the five day suspension as you can see chief dixon

836
01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:43,880
 has handed three of those out in his tenure and then we had one 16 day suspension that

837
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:50,520
 happened earlier this year we've had two indefinite suspensions one of those was appealed we talked

838
01:32:50,520 --> 01:32:54,880
 a little bit mike talked a little bit about the appellate process but it did go through

839
01:32:54,880 --> 01:33:03,120
 the appeal process and the city of denton won that appeal process and the it's my belief

840
01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:07,840
 that that that that happened because of the the system that chief dixon has put in place

841
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:18,200
 with our with our disciplinary review and so this is a breakdown of the other types

842
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:23,120
 of disciplinary corrective action if you go to the upper left with me you'll see the top

843
01:33:23,120 --> 01:33:27,840
 three that say verbal counseling documented counseling and written reprimand that's a

844
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:33,200
 hierarchy right there those three verbal counseling is the equivalent to coaching this is for

845
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:38,240
 very minor issues somebody like i said maybe somebody walked in five ten minutes late for

846
01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:43,400
 work one day and it's their first time a lot of those will result just verbal counseling

847
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:46,280
 then you get to documented counseling and that's a little bit that's a little bit more

848
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:52,720
 serious it's it's uh you really kind of spell out what happened you you really try to work

849
01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:57,920
 with a person to try to fix it and uh but it's we just need to document it a little

850
01:33:57,920 --> 01:34:02,560
 bit more and then you get to written reprimand which is one step below with suspension and

851
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:06,640
 the written reprimand has pretty serious language on it about what will happen if you don't

852
01:34:06,640 --> 01:34:13,240
 correct the behavior then you have performance improvement plans uh we we actually call these

853
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:18,920
 epips it stands for employee performance improvement plan and we've uh we've gotten a little bit

854
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:23,520
 more it's been a little bit more robust in the last two years and we're using that to

855
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:29,680
 try to correct officers performance and then we also have a number of training dispositions

856
01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:33,640
 where we're getting making sure folks are are getting the training they need when they

857
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:41,480
 have some issues and uh we also had 21 cases where the action taken was not listed so we're

858
01:34:41,480 --> 01:34:45,560
 going to have to go back through those and double check everything through an audit we've

859
01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:53,600
 been auditing it in any way but we need to go back and double check all of that i don't

860
01:34:53,600 --> 01:35:03,360
 know what's supposed to be there but okay with that i'll open it up for any questions

861
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:16,080
 i have a question um on on the um like verbal counseling or the documented counseling um

862
01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:22,120
 would would it be fair to say that maybe uh some of these disciplinarian acts are for

863
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:31,800
 newer officers or more seasoned or is there a right a high ratio of maybe newer officers

864
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:39,440
 that would be getting these kind of warnings and counselings or is it just across the board

865
01:35:39,440 --> 01:35:44,520
 it is across the board but yeah when you're talking about young maybe newer officers you

866
01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:48,900
 know depending on how minor the because some things are really minor especially internally

867
01:35:48,900 --> 01:35:54,440
 driven issues okay you know and so yes the whole idea here is to bring people to the

868
01:35:54,440 --> 01:35:59,080
 point where they perform at a high rate at very high standards and so it's like anything

869
01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:02,560
 else in life you got to coach people and you got to give an opportunity you got to give

870
01:36:02,560 --> 01:36:09,200
 them an opportunity to to improve their performance so you can't come down too hard on these minor

871
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:13,560
 nature things because you end up you may end up tearing the employee down their goal is

872
01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:23,900
 to get a really high operating employee okay thank you anybody else yeah i have a question

873
01:36:23,900 --> 01:36:30,200
 or a comment um i'd be really interested just in the 14 use of force complaints um since

874
01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:36,680
 this is the purpose of this committee if um be further elaborated on i know that yes i

875
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:44,160
 said it's since 2015 but i'd like to see a breakdown by year uh i'd like to see who uh

876
01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:50,080
 who brought that up for attention was it an internal or an external um who's the one that

877
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:56,680
 brought that up and who investigated who decided that only one of the one of those um complaint

878
01:36:56,680 --> 01:37:02,600
 should be held upheld and then what was the consequence you're talking about so the use

879
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:09,480
 of force right 14 the and if you wanted to add the taser one in there i mean that makes

880
01:37:09,480 --> 01:37:15,480
 18 but but specifically the 14 use of work for uh force complaints right no i actually

881
01:37:15,480 --> 01:37:20,480
 went through every one of those 14 and i looked at them and um you know there was three that

882
01:37:20,480 --> 01:37:24,720
 were sustained and all three of those were captured through internal review in other

883
01:37:24,720 --> 01:37:29,680
 words the supervisor doing his or her job saw something ran it up the chain of command

884
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:35,680
 and made sure that it was investigated properly now if you look at the other 11 some of those

885
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:41,440
 uh for instance there was a couple of those instances where the officer placed his or

886
01:37:41,440 --> 01:37:46,320
 her hand on a on a person just to stop their movement and they were trying to walk away

887
01:37:46,320 --> 01:37:51,000
 and they were being lawfully detained and the person filed a complaint for use of force

888
01:37:51,000 --> 01:37:58,440
 so you have some of that um you know i i i can't sit here and go through every one of

889
01:37:58,440 --> 01:38:03,400
 them i but i can tell you that i did go through every one of them and i did not see any in

890
01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:09,480
 my and and this is me looking at it i didn't see deficiencies with the investigation it

891
01:38:09,480 --> 01:38:16,000
 would just be helpful for us to read the language uh for us to look at each one of them ourselves

892
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:19,960
 i don't know what the process is if we would be able to read what whatever you were reading

893
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:24,880
 uh i think that would just be helpful there's certain information that we have to protect

894
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:30,760
 under under chapter 143 that's a decision i that's i would have to defer to uh mike

895
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:35,000
 and chief dixon on that as far as releasing that information but in general uh you know

896
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:40,920
 some of the information i can pass along here uh in the taser you know the taser issues

897
01:38:40,920 --> 01:38:47,040
 there was a total of four um complaints those were all no no i'm sorry those were not all

898
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:52,760
 captured internally but i think the majority were and in each one of those incidents uh

899
01:38:52,760 --> 01:38:56,880
 there was discipline associated with it one was a suspension and that was under chief

900
01:38:56,880 --> 01:38:57,880
 dixon's tenure

901
01:38:57,880 --> 01:39:08,680
 is mr konig there so he can let us know what we're going to be able to see with those 14

902
01:39:08,680 --> 01:39:19,480
 i'm gonna have to think about that because those if they didn't result in a i'll go into

903
01:39:19,480 --> 01:39:25,040
 this in a minute if they didn't result in a suspension of at least one day they're confidential

904
01:39:25,040 --> 01:39:33,320
 by law um uh let me look at that issue and and i will promise you that if i if i think

905
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:38,440
 you can see them then i'll certainly will make them available to you i'm just not sure

906
01:39:38,440 --> 01:39:45,920
 um because this is a volunteer committee and and you'll see that this this goes into the

907
01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:52,800
 whole issue of oversight and what what citizens uh especially who aren't even employees of

908
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:58,640
 the the city what they can see so let me let me look at the issue discuss it with chief

909
01:39:58,640 --> 01:40:03,160
 dixon chief smith a little bit more and we'll we'll make available to you what i what i

910
01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:09,640
 believe we legally can i just i i just think that i mean i that's the whole purpose of

911
01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:14,920
 this committee right is to review use of force and i'd like to see what we're reviewing if

912
01:40:14,920 --> 01:40:20,360
 it's even necessary i want to know who made the decision that it was a you know that it

913
01:40:20,360 --> 01:40:25,560
 was a simple yeah i tried to grab arm and he resisted arrest or was it more than that

914
01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:31,680
 uh let us let us talk to michael let us talk to michael and see if we if at a minimum we

915
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:38,280
 can put those in a uh in a table format at least to provide some general data um and

916
01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:43,760
 we'll try to figure out a way to at least share um the generalities of the case if possible

917
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:48,040
 if michael thinks we can go a little further we will but uh at a minimum i'll talk to him

918
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:53,020
 about trying to put it in a format we can at least discuss jesse we don't need to know

919
01:40:53,020 --> 01:41:01,680
 the person's name i'm sorry cheryl yeah right remove the person's name i think additionally

920
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:08,440
 you shared with us the race of the complainants that were external but not any information

921
01:41:08,440 --> 01:41:16,040
 about the officers that were involved um and so generally just i understand that you can't

922
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:22,080
 potentially release individual records for those 14 in their totality but potentially

923
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:29,280
 if we could get some aggregated information that would help us to understand um the circumstances

924
01:41:29,280 --> 01:41:35,400
 and the background of those situations i think that would be helpful we'll see what we could

925
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:41,400
 put together and bring it back to you jesse i saw your hand up sure some of the same ground

926
01:41:41,400 --> 01:41:45,800
 that's already been covered with other folks that i think for the committee's purposes

927
01:41:45,800 --> 01:41:50,560
 anonymous information you know with names redacted whatever makes it easier to get the

928
01:41:50,560 --> 01:41:55,920
 information to the committee because i think we can all recognize the danger in let's say

929
01:41:55,920 --> 01:42:01,000
 out of those 14 there's even one that's not substantiated that's driven by something beyond

930
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:06,200
 actual events and and the damage that can be done to uh to an officer's reputation even

931
01:42:06,200 --> 01:42:12,600
 if it's just uh putting it out there with this committee so um i think i think anonymous

932
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:17,160
 or or somehow scrubbed results or a table or something like taunt said would be very

933
01:42:17,160 --> 01:42:26,680
 helpful and i just wanted to add to that i noticed that of those 14ish complaints there

934
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:33,440
 were around seven that were sustained but only two suspensions so i'm wondering if we

935
01:42:33,440 --> 01:42:37,920
 can figure out what the action was for the ones that were sustained but there wasn't

936
01:42:37,920 --> 01:42:44,280
 a suspension um i'd be interested to see what happened there as well right with the 14 actual

937
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:48,760
 uses of force allegations there was three sustained there and in that case those cases

938
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:55,120
 there was one uh that was a five-day suspension there was another was a documented counseling

939
01:42:55,120 --> 01:42:58,840
 and the other one was a written reprimand those are the three disciplinary actions that

940
01:42:58,840 --> 01:43:06,640
 were taken in those but one thing to keep in mind about use of force items you know

941
01:43:06,640 --> 01:43:12,680
 there's different levels of use as a force that and so uh in in some cases you know if

942
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:17,640
 it's egregious or in some cases if it's you know grabbing somebody that may be a little

943
01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:22,480
 too hard so there's different there's various levels of that and and actually most of these

944
01:43:22,480 --> 01:43:29,520
 uh i do believe i believe that out of the three uh uses of force i think only one of

945
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:35,920
 those was decided by chief dixon i believe

946
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:43,040
 and just to clarify i guess i was also adding in the ones around the tasing um and and i

947
01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:49,000
 just wanted to mention that right you're right so if you add the tases into the that's four

948
01:43:49,000 --> 01:43:54,800
 plus the 14 that's 18 and so yes and there would be a total of seven sustained you're

949
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:59,760
 right i think that would be really interesting to see too like you mentioned what the levels

950
01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:07,040
 of use of force so i mean if most complaints were grabbing an arm you know were there any

951
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:14,080
 that were more so uh you know just if there could be some kind of difference and often

952
01:44:14,080 --> 01:44:18,280
 put on the table too well yeah i'd be glad to provide that if you know if that's something

953
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:24,800
 that we're allowed to do i provide you with the the basic information about it and well

954
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:30,920
 i think your your basic framework too because you've got either intuitively or formally

955
01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:37,480
 when you're looking at it after 25 years and understanding this is not that and i think

956
01:44:37,480 --> 01:44:43,000
 in general we would be able to maybe all the same information you do to say that but i

957
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:47,560
 think just knowing your categories if you've got four categories from egregious to yeah

958
01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:52,760
 uh accidental to everything in between you know how many of those categories there are

959
01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:57,880
 that you're intuitively as you're looking at it right that would be helpful just to

960
01:44:57,880 --> 01:45:04,000
 to for us to i think know there's four general categories i'm thinking through and these

961
01:45:04,000 --> 01:45:08,080
 three go to the chief and this one doesn't you know right but i also want to say something

962
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:12,440
 real quick and i i didn't mention this earlier but i think it's very critical to understand

963
01:45:12,440 --> 01:45:18,460
 the process by which when it comes to a complaint of use of force it's it's called it's a serious

964
01:45:18,460 --> 01:45:25,920
 nature complaint and previous to chief dixon the investigator on on a case provided the

965
01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:31,680
 disposition and uh and when chief dixon came in that was changed to the system that flow

966
01:45:31,680 --> 01:45:35,960
 chart where you saw the arrow so there's a much more deliberative process and not taking

967
01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:40,760
 away anything from his predecessor but the process is much more deliberative and he's

968
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:46,000
 and the key thing about all of it is that the investigating uh officer whether it's

969
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:51,840
 the i in this case would be always an internal affairs officer doesn't make the the recommendation

970
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:55,520
 for the disposition that is something that is done in the chain of command with chief

971
01:45:55,520 --> 01:46:02,280
 dixon making the final decision so um i think that's a key that's a very key point to the

972
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:07,120
 process right now yeah bobby i think we can sit down tomorrow with michael and and just

973
01:46:07,120 --> 01:46:13,000
 kind of see how far we can go um if we could put this information in a spreadsheet that

974
01:46:13,000 --> 01:46:19,160
 doesn't in any way uh violate any 143 or any of the rules that we've agreed to and just

975
01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:22,680
 so we can talk through some scenarios with we're happy to do it and i think we can kick

976
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:26,680
 off our next meeting with a summary of that data and to the extent that we're allowed

977
01:46:26,680 --> 01:46:29,440
 to under the law so you've got our commitment to working on that

978
01:46:29,440 --> 01:46:39,160
 chief at a more general level i know i think gary henderson asked this question last meeting

979
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:45,400
 about culture and where you see the department at i know these they're doing it very respectfully

980
01:46:45,400 --> 01:46:51,840
 but both the assistant chief here and and mr groenig have said you know when you showed

981
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:57,320
 up there's been a new chief there's a new sheriff in town people have felt that from

982
01:46:57,320 --> 01:47:05,920
 your perspective in regards to culture what have you seen systemically in regards to discipline

983
01:47:05,920 --> 01:47:13,640
 that you've tried to come in and um in address knowing that you know even if it's shown up

984
01:47:13,640 --> 01:47:17,040
 to a meeting five ten minutes late these are the kind of things in a culture that lead

985
01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:23,720
 to more disastrous consequences if not addressed how have you viewed that overall and just

986
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:30,360
 kind of love to just hear your perspective that they've both spoken to in various ways

987
01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:34,920
 so i really wanted us to focus on how can we make our organization better and a lot

988
01:47:34,920 --> 01:47:39,720
 of that comes to supervisors starting to have monthly meetings with their subordinates lie

989
01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:43,320
 tenants starting to have monthly meetings with their sergeants deputy chiefs having

990
01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:48,820
 monthly meetings with their lieutenants and the executive team we meet at least once a

991
01:47:48,820 --> 01:47:55,240
 week sometimes we meet more than that so that's where you see a lot of those coaching documented

992
01:47:55,240 --> 01:47:59,880
 counseling is going in right there because they're seeing little things and i want us

993
01:47:59,880 --> 01:48:04,680
 to catch those little things and address them before they manifest themselves into a tragedy

994
01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:11,080
 because by then it's too late that's when you're looking at what is it a mistake of

995
01:48:11,080 --> 01:48:17,520
 the mind or a mistake of the heart when people are committing policy violations so we're

996
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:22,360
 looking at these more holistically now we're really taking and i'm putting a lot of the

997
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:27,880
 onus on the chain of command we all go into a room together i start with the lowest ranking

998
01:48:27,880 --> 01:48:33,480
 person in there for them to give me what they think what's their recommendation they want

999
01:48:33,480 --> 01:48:40,000
 they think something should be sustained if it is why when it comes down to days off what

1000
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:49,080
 do you think is something that you would recommend and why because if our leadership from the

1001
01:48:49,080 --> 01:48:54,120
 top down doesn't understand the why behind the decisions we're playing against ourselves

1002
01:48:54,120 --> 01:49:01,360
 and we're not improving employees and with that every time we have a policy violation

1003
01:49:01,360 --> 01:49:05,680
 definitely when we give a suspension out there's got to be training associated with that got

1004
01:49:05,680 --> 01:49:11,640
 to be tied to it or else again we're playing against ourselves we have an onus as an organization

1005
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:16,700
 and myself as the chief executive officer to make sure that we're not setting our employees

1006
01:49:16,700 --> 01:49:20,600
 up to fail and if we're not giving them the training they need the training they deserve

1007
01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:28,620
 and the attention they deserve we're negligent in the manner of not setting them up for success

1008
01:49:28,620 --> 01:49:32,840
 and i want to make sure that i don't let this time pass you've got some amazing men and

1009
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:38,200
 women wearing this uniform here in the city of denton working for you every day two of

1010
01:49:38,200 --> 01:49:44,980
 them are on your screen right now in yancey and travis they come to work not for the money

1011
01:49:44,980 --> 01:49:49,520
 they don't come to work to get accolades they come to work to serve you and they do a magnificent

1012
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:55,620
 job of it so i don't want that to get washed out as long as we're pleased by human beings

1013
01:49:55,620 --> 01:49:58,960
 we're going to have discipline associated with that we have to make sure that we're

1014
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:06,400
 doing it the right way which is why we use indefinite suspensions very judiciously very

1015
01:50:06,400 --> 01:50:11,080
 cautiously because i don't want on the back end someone to get their job back through

1016
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:15,760
 the city and now they're back and they're emboldened even more because they've gotten

1017
01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:23,080
 their job back so i think where we're at now we're about halfway to where i want us to

1018
01:50:23,080 --> 01:50:32,600
 be but we're going to get there

1019
01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:53,880
 michelle i have a question yes ma'am um i'm really interested in the racial dynamics in

1020
01:50:53,880 --> 01:51:01,680
 our city because we have really large inequities and i'm sure almost everybody is aware and

1021
01:51:01,680 --> 01:51:09,640
 i was looking at the slide the complaints by race and noted that it says if i can read

1022
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:20,680
 this 21 percent of the total complaints were made by black members of our town and i'm

1023
01:51:20,680 --> 01:51:29,480
 curious if you what kind of thinking you might have done about this and also are black members

1024
01:51:29,480 --> 01:51:34,520
 of the community more likely to complain about black officers or white officers have you

1025
01:51:34,520 --> 01:51:45,920
 have you delved into the dynamics

1026
01:51:45,920 --> 01:51:50,720
 that's something that we we have the data on that when we when we're talking about complaints

1027
01:51:50,720 --> 01:51:55,640
 made by citizens the race of the citizen we also have the races of the officers so we

1028
01:51:55,640 --> 01:52:03,600
 have that information and what do you make of it and can't we see it yeah i think that's

1029
01:52:03,600 --> 01:52:06,360
 something that we you know as long as i mean i'm sure we're going to talk about this more

1030
01:52:06,360 --> 01:52:11,840
 but that may be something we can lay it all out i'll defer to city manager and chief dixon

1031
01:52:11,840 --> 01:52:16,160
 on that yeah we'll start the next meeting with both of the data tables from what we

1032
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:22,240
 were previously discussing as far as those use of force cases and these but the short

1033
01:52:22,240 --> 01:52:28,440
 of it is there's no pattern of our african-american community complaining on one race of an officer

1034
01:52:28,440 --> 01:52:38,600
 or another okay thank you i think um and i don't even know if it's possible is there

1035
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:46,360
 one specific area of the city that you receive more complaints than the other or is it just

1036
01:52:46,360 --> 01:52:56,480
 a well-rounded all over on um number of complaints i don't have that information right now ma'am

1037
01:52:56,480 --> 01:53:00,880
 that's something that um we'd have to look at to see if that's available to us okay we'd

1038
01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:06,320
 have to look at locations and addresses you know when i looked at this when i spent the

1039
01:53:06,320 --> 01:53:11,120
 last couple of weeks looking over information that is i did use uh just the person's name

1040
01:53:11,120 --> 01:53:16,720
 and their and their uh their race and gender and the same with the officer so that but

1041
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:21,880
 as far as location where it occurred and address i don't have that data yet i haven't looked

1042
01:53:21,880 --> 01:53:26,960
 at that is that something we we could get at a certain point i'd have to see if that's

1043
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:31,320
 available uh i think it is i mean this the system that we have has a lot of different

1044
01:53:31,320 --> 01:53:42,600
 searchable data fields okay chief smith i have a question go ahead john thank you uh

1045
01:53:42,600 --> 01:53:50,000
 chief smith i have a question uh when i'm looking at this complaints by race these are

1046
01:53:50,000 --> 01:53:56,240
 people from the community complaining against the police department right for the most part

1047
01:53:56,240 --> 01:54:04,080
 there is one little copy out there that i have to explain okay prior to 2019 uh we didn't

1048
01:54:04,080 --> 01:54:08,160
 have the ability to categorize where we weren't using the ability to categorize internal versus

1049
01:54:08,160 --> 01:54:12,720
 external in the actual number and this is kind of confusing but there's an ops number

1050
01:54:12,720 --> 01:54:18,720
 or an investigative number so these two 15 were represented by the citizens that we recorded

1051
01:54:18,720 --> 01:54:24,240
 in the complaint there is a possibility that some of the citizens uh did not file the complaint

1052
01:54:24,240 --> 01:54:28,560
 themselves that that we filed it on behalf of the citizen there is some possibility of

1053
01:54:28,560 --> 01:54:33,640
 that but generally speaking it is a complaint out by the system and my second question which

1054
01:54:33,640 --> 01:54:39,200
 is related so if these citizens are complaining about the police generally what are they complaining

1055
01:54:39,200 --> 01:54:46,360
 about well when you saw that top five stuff there probably discourtesy is the one in that

1056
01:54:46,360 --> 01:54:52,680
 in that those categories uh but i will say this we can break it down by citizen complaints

1057
01:54:52,680 --> 01:54:59,760
 to determine what their highest level of allegations are but if i i can tell you just from anecdotally

1058
01:54:59,760 --> 01:55:04,120
 from my experience a lot of it is performance related they weren't happy with the performance

1059
01:55:04,120 --> 01:55:09,520
 of the officer or the decision making of the officer or that the officer was just courteous

1060
01:55:09,520 --> 01:55:20,880
 and in his demeanor or her demeanor thank you very much camion who else had a question

1061
01:55:20,880 --> 01:55:28,000
 you have a question camion yeah i did so i was trying to get off mute so i have a couple

1062
01:55:28,000 --> 01:55:36,800
 questions um the first is around this complaint by race uh breakdown i was wondering how does

1063
01:55:36,800 --> 01:55:48,760
 our um breakdown compare to the percentages um of our dentin population by race and also

1064
01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:54,800
 like how it might compare to other cities or cities of similar size and population of

1065
01:55:54,800 --> 01:56:01,680
 ours i'd just be interested to see if we could at all i don't know if you all have the ability

1066
01:56:01,680 --> 01:56:07,040
 to get data from other cities but i'm just wondering how it could compare to see um where

1067
01:56:07,040 --> 01:56:16,880
 dentin's at in comparison to other areas um and you mentioned that there were more ways

1068
01:56:16,880 --> 01:56:24,480
 to break down data around this and you mentioned that you use um a breakdown around gender

1069
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:31,760
 and race and all of that i'm wondering if there are any indicators in the um software

1070
01:56:31,760 --> 01:56:37,880
 here at with our city that indicate folks is gender if it's not male or female like

1071
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:43,640
 if they um identify as a trans individual or a non-binary individual i'd be interested

1072
01:56:43,640 --> 01:56:50,240
 to see if any of these complaints came from our lgbt community if that is an intersection

1073
01:56:50,240 --> 01:56:54,600
 that is captured well ma'am i don't think that's actually captured right now when we

1074
01:56:54,600 --> 01:56:59,960
 go back and look at the data i mean this and we've had this system since 2013 uh and uh

1075
01:56:59,960 --> 01:57:05,120
 i do not believe there's a cat a category in there now that doesn't mean it's not available

1076
01:57:05,120 --> 01:57:09,280
 through some sort of research but generally speaking i don't think that's a data entry

1077
01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:18,080
 point in this system that we currently have my question was just going to be about language

1078
01:57:18,080 --> 01:57:24,400
 okay that was um when i was looking at that i think the spanish community it was really

1079
01:57:24,400 --> 01:57:28,480
 low it's like eight percent which is good or it could be that it's not complaining that

1080
01:57:28,480 --> 01:57:34,360
 they can't complain in the appropriate language so i'd just be interested in that as a data

1081
01:57:34,360 --> 01:57:48,040
 entry point as well did you get that chief smith i'm sorry what was the actual question

1082
01:57:48,040 --> 01:57:51,800
 i i thought you was you just wanted some information did you have a question about it though yeah

1083
01:57:51,800 --> 01:57:56,360
 no the question is the question is that whenever the hispanic the ones that you're getting

1084
01:57:56,360 --> 01:58:01,400
 from hispanic population if any of them um have if any of the complaints have come in

1085
01:58:01,400 --> 01:58:06,400
 in spanish and how are those routed my concern is maybe someone wants to complain but they

1086
01:58:06,400 --> 01:58:11,720
 can't speak or you don't have anyone available so i'll just be interested right right i totally

1087
01:58:11,720 --> 01:58:16,800
 understand that and of course we would we would always we always make arrangements whenever

1088
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:20,360
 we can but i do understand there might be a barrier to want to file the complaint in

1089
01:58:20,360 --> 01:58:24,840
 the first place i totally understand that but um we do have spanish speaking officers

1090
01:58:24,840 --> 01:58:29,680
 at our department and we would always facilitate that somehow we would never turn anybody away

1091
01:58:29,680 --> 01:58:41,320
 because of any sort of uh language barrier yes ronda i have a comment on canyon's question

1092
01:58:41,320 --> 01:58:48,080
 uh it didn't actually get answered about uh the percentage of the races in denton properly

1093
01:58:48,080 --> 01:58:54,120
 um i don't have the data right in front of me but i have looked at it before uh hispanics

1094
01:58:54,120 --> 01:58:59,360
 are about 25 of the population and i think african american or black whatever term you

1095
01:58:59,360 --> 01:59:07,720
 use is about nine i thought it was 11 okay somewhere yeah between nine and 11 yeah certainly

1096
01:59:07,720 --> 01:59:15,240
 a lot fewer african americans and and in terms of the percentage of the population as to

1097
01:59:15,240 --> 01:59:32,120
 those making complaints yes katina if you take that go ahead katina and then john um

1098
01:59:32,120 --> 01:59:38,640
 so i would like to see the nature of the complaints may be ranked by severity are we able to look

1099
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:45,840
 at that like do you have categorizations where are some of those complaints to where you

1100
01:59:45,840 --> 01:59:53,760
 know like rating i'm i'm just using hypothetically like a ranking from one to ten or a type of

1101
01:59:53,760 --> 02:00:04,160
 or a type of complaint um like excessive for sexual you know just do you have them categorized

1102
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:12,640
 in that way or is it is it are you able to uh pull that data from your system yes ma'am

1103
02:00:12,640 --> 02:00:19,480
 okay yeah that's uh you're talking about allegations you can you can you can sort anything in the

1104
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:24,540
 system by an allegation you can you can pull i can figure out exactly how many of each

1105
02:00:24,540 --> 02:00:30,720
 allegation we looked at five and a half years is what we use for this uh this presentation

1106
02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:35,120
 this is what what i was told to look up but you know this particular system dates back

1107
02:00:35,120 --> 02:00:42,980
 to 2013 but yes we can we can look at it the way you described now and and we can break

1108
02:00:42,980 --> 02:00:48,840
 it down by race we can break it down by gender uh the allegations you can break it down by

1109
02:00:48,840 --> 02:00:54,440
 officer you can do it you know there's there's a lot of there's a lot of functionality there

1110
02:00:54,440 --> 02:01:03,880
 thank you john uh thank you sheryl i was going to say that um when you look at the numbers

1111
02:01:03,880 --> 02:01:08,840
 and the african-american community represents around 11 i would think the hispanic community

1112
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:16,920
 is around 30 and then when you look at only eight percent here i don't know that that

1113
02:01:16,920 --> 02:01:20,280
 those numbers kind of tell you something you know i don't know what they're telling you

1114
02:01:20,280 --> 02:01:26,800
 but they're telling you something that you you have and the white population is around

1115
02:01:26,800 --> 02:01:35,880
 50 i think 45 to 50 and so but those numbers seem to to to line out but somehow we're missing

1116
02:01:35,880 --> 02:01:41,920
 information from the hispanic community i don't know maybe the service is adequate or or like

1117
02:01:41,920 --> 02:01:50,720
 like living was saying we've got a breakdown in the ability to communicate there and i

1118
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:56,320
 i do want to say i know chief dixon and um some of his other officers are trying to kind

1119
02:01:56,320 --> 02:02:03,640
 of bridge that gap right between the hispanic community maybe the trust maybe the lack of

1120
02:02:03,640 --> 02:02:09,000
 trust to report crimes and things like that i know that there is work that that is being

1121
02:02:09,000 --> 02:02:14,280
 done and i think that that's something that's very relevant uh you're right i mean i think

1122
02:02:14,280 --> 02:02:19,680
 whether city of denton or denny county we're more than 25 just alone in k-12 at the dentin

1123
02:02:19,680 --> 02:02:28,600
 isd it's 31 so i know way more i'm just not why uh you know and like you said maybe the

1124
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:33,200
 service is adequate but i i don't mean to be a negative nelly but i think it's probably

1125
02:02:33,200 --> 02:02:40,980
 better well i can tell you yesterday speaking to that lily and i had two um ladies call

1126
02:02:40,980 --> 02:02:47,240
 me and we had a discussion for about an hour and they were both immigrants to our country

1127
02:02:47,240 --> 02:02:52,280
 and they spoke exactly to what you just spoke to is how we have been coming uh closer together

1128
02:02:52,280 --> 02:02:56,200
 in the last year and they would have never called the police department for what they

1129
02:02:56,200 --> 02:03:00,360
 did yesterday and that was to help them and in the course of an eviction that they were

1130
02:03:00,360 --> 02:03:05,880
 going through and asking us for assistance even though they knew that they weren't here

1131
02:03:05,880 --> 02:03:10,920
 legally they still didn't they had enough trust in us that they reached out to us so

1132
02:03:10,920 --> 02:03:15,760
 i think we are making some some ground here that's good and i know that hopefully uh i

1133
02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:22,340
 know karama kind of put a stop to it but hopefully those meetings will continue katina so could

1134
02:03:22,340 --> 02:03:28,200
 it possibly be um because i see the unknown and not listed i know um sometimes there's

1135
02:03:28,200 --> 02:03:34,140
 nuance to hispanic and latinx uh communities and how they identify could that potentially

1136
02:03:34,140 --> 02:03:41,920
 be an issue that there's more um that there are more um hispanic or latinx um complaints

1137
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:50,360
 but that they that there's no proper classification for their ethnicity or you know how they identify

1138
02:03:50,360 --> 02:04:00,280
 culturally if i may if i may i don't know and i'll just i'll defer to assistant police

1139
02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:08,600
 chief but i know that for me uh it'll say hispanic non-white or or sometimes i'm hispanic

1140
02:04:08,600 --> 02:04:13,800
 but i'm included in white it depends you know who's dealing with me um so i don't know how

1141
02:04:13,800 --> 02:04:19,800
 that's done but that can very possibly be what's going on and i've noticed that where

1142
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:26,320
 it'll say hispanic and white um and so i'm wondering if that if the white um if some

1143
02:04:26,320 --> 02:04:33,160
 of the hispanic numbers are are lumped in with white or unknown not listed i definitely

1144
02:04:33,160 --> 02:04:37,880
 believe it's possibly about the unknown or not listed we're going to have to like i said

1145
02:04:37,880 --> 02:04:41,000
 we're going to have to go through those and figure out what the problem is with those

1146
02:04:41,000 --> 02:04:50,760
 33 records and see so the numbers could change dami i was curious if chief you believe that

1147
02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:57,160
 you have the resources that you need to communicate with our community about how they may go about

1148
02:04:57,160 --> 02:05:04,600
 filing a complaint both in english and spanish and in any other forms or um if you have the

1149
02:05:04,600 --> 02:05:09,800
 communications resources that you feel like the department would need to help educate

1150
02:05:09,800 --> 02:05:16,040
 citizens about how they can move forward if they feel like they have a complaint to file

1151
02:05:16,040 --> 02:05:22,840
 we do we have an amazing well we have a great relationship inner that in the city

1152
02:05:22,840 --> 02:05:27,640
 being able to use resources both with our public information office and with corporate

1153
02:05:27,640 --> 02:05:34,920
 communications here at the city additionally we work very well with twu unt nctc and get an

1154
02:05:34,920 --> 02:05:41,480
 out joint messaging so we have introduced a number of ways for people to reach out to us both online

1155
02:05:41,480 --> 02:05:47,720
 and in person they can go online and send in a complaint anonymously through email they can call

1156
02:05:47,720 --> 02:05:53,960
 and leave messages they can come up to a police department we can send people out to meet we've

1157
02:05:53,960 --> 02:06:00,360
 opened up as many channels as we can but we're going to continue to try to get better communication

1158
02:06:00,360 --> 02:06:08,520
 now because we have other communities in our city that aren't latinx hispanic they come from

1159
02:06:08,520 --> 02:06:14,760
 the middle east eastern asia places like that so that's really we're trying to make them a broader

1160
02:06:14,760 --> 02:06:25,160
 focus one thing i wanted to add real quick and uh on our website we do have uh we do have a

1161
02:06:25,160 --> 02:06:30,040
 spanish-speaking option on our website when it comes to making complaints with the department

1162
02:06:30,040 --> 02:06:34,840
 i don't know that it's been utilized i don't think it has but it's there it's an option

1163
02:06:34,840 --> 02:06:36,360
 for our spanish-speaking community

1164
02:06:36,360 --> 02:06:52,440
 would you possibly be able to share with me what other intersections you

1165
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:57,560
 you all capture regarding the the complaints aside from race and gender

1166
02:07:00,440 --> 02:07:05,960
 well obviously there's the standard stuff with uh with your date and times we also can capture it

1167
02:07:05,960 --> 02:07:11,720
 by supervisor but it all depends on if the data was filled out correctly one of the things i did

1168
02:07:11,720 --> 02:07:18,280
 find is that some of the records are not complete so you have to you have to fix those i think in

1169
02:07:18,280 --> 02:07:24,280
 some instances and we're dedicated to doing that from here on out but there are a number of data

1170
02:07:24,280 --> 02:07:32,600
 points and i don't have them all right here in front of me but it could be something as a shift

1171
02:07:32,600 --> 02:07:39,160
 it could be a supervisor that's assigned to the individual there's information about the officer

1172
02:07:39,160 --> 02:07:42,440
 i think there's actually information there's some ways to capture some information about the

1173
02:07:42,440 --> 02:07:47,480
 officer's background things like that but i'd have to take a little deeper dive in it to determine

1174
02:07:47,480 --> 02:07:55,000
 how how much quality data we have there did you have anything else specifically yeah i mean i

1175
02:07:55,000 --> 02:08:00,920
 guess i'm just wondering if you all can provide to us the data points that are captured around the

1176
02:08:00,920 --> 02:08:07,000
 person who's making the complaint and the data points that are captured around the officer in

1177
02:08:07,000 --> 02:08:14,840
 which they're complaining about um because it seems like i don't know i'm just wondering

1178
02:08:16,200 --> 02:08:21,400
 what is bringing up for me is that there are i think people have looked it up some barriers it

1179
02:08:21,400 --> 02:08:28,760
 could be for people to feel like they can make complaints and i think that this committee is like

1180
02:08:28,760 --> 02:08:34,760
 likely interested in trying to reduce those barriers because it would just help um with

1181
02:08:34,760 --> 02:08:41,000
 transparency with the police department and citizen trust so just wondering like what information you

1182
02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:45,320
 all might be able to share around that because it could help us in determining if there are

1183
02:08:45,320 --> 02:08:52,360
 barriers to folks making complaints or who better understand who might be making complaints and who

1184
02:08:52,360 --> 02:09:01,160
 they might be making complaints about without like names or anything just like the things you can

1185
02:09:01,160 --> 02:09:08,840
 actually document about right cameron i'd like to ask you a question were you specifically asking if

1186
02:09:09,640 --> 02:09:19,080
 um we can do a better job of identifying the lgbtq community i'm thinking that but not just that like

1187
02:09:19,080 --> 02:09:27,560
 our aging population people with um disabilities like all types of things that's that's kind of

1188
02:09:27,560 --> 02:09:33,400
 what i'm leaning at is like there could be trends that we're completely missing um because of if we

1189
02:09:33,400 --> 02:09:39,240
 might only be and i get that maybe there's limited time but if it's a form that folks are filling out

1190
02:09:39,240 --> 02:09:45,000
 that they can make a complaint if there are sections that allow them to put things about

1191
02:09:45,000 --> 02:09:51,080
 themselves they might right um so that's my thinking around that i'm just wondering what

1192
02:09:51,080 --> 02:09:59,320
 information is captured i can tell you anecdotally that i saw a pretty strong representation of

1193
02:09:59,320 --> 02:10:02,920
 mental illness in some of these complaints as i went through a lot of these and i know that

1194
02:10:02,920 --> 02:10:08,600
 that's a it's a big thing for our community is to to provide the right uh you know collaborative

1195
02:10:08,600 --> 02:10:13,000
 approach to mental illness and i did see that when just in this again this is just this is not a

1196
02:10:13,000 --> 02:10:19,080
 data-based summation it's just simply anecdotally i saw a pretty strong representation of mental

1197
02:10:19,080 --> 02:10:30,920
 illness in some of the complaints something um i'd like to uh chime in something i wanted i'd like to

1198
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:40,680
 know how many um how many officers like like what's the protocol for identifying yourself

1199
02:10:40,680 --> 02:10:45,000
 like as an officer and how many people that have put in complaints without knowing the officer's

1200
02:10:45,000 --> 02:10:50,680
 name or like without knowing who the without knowing the officer's badge number whatever it is

1201
02:10:50,680 --> 02:10:54,920
 that's a great question and you know over the last couple of years i've been involved in every one of

1202
02:10:54,920 --> 02:10:59,160
 these complaints that come through and and occasionally we'll get a complaint where the

1203
02:10:59,160 --> 02:11:05,480
 the complainant doesn't know the officer's name or maybe in fact it's actually more common to not

1204
02:11:05,480 --> 02:11:09,080
 know the officer's name but they can provide us with the details that we're going to need and

1205
02:11:09,080 --> 02:11:16,440
 we seem to have a very strong record of determining who those people who those officers are so if

1206
02:11:16,440 --> 02:11:20,280
 somebody complains of misconduct and they don't know the officer's name as long as they can provide

1207
02:11:20,280 --> 02:11:24,840
 us with some basic details we'll we'll be able to determine the officer's identity the protocol

1208
02:11:24,840 --> 02:11:29,240
 though for an officer to identify themselves is they're you know they're typically they need to

1209
02:11:29,240 --> 02:11:34,360
 identify they need to say who they are they need to say their officer so and so but if the person

1210
02:11:34,360 --> 02:11:39,000
 demands more information they they like a name and a badge number they're required to give their badge

1211
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:46,200
 i am curious if the training for officers as it relates to folks with visual impairment

1212
02:11:46,200 --> 02:11:51,960
 specifically includes badge number automatically because any member of the community could walk

1213
02:11:51,960 --> 02:11:56,920
 up on somebody with a visual impairment and declare themselves a police officer so i'm

1214
02:11:56,920 --> 02:12:00,840
 just curious if that's part of the training i know that may not be a question you guys can answer

1215
02:12:00,840 --> 02:12:05,720
 tonight but it is something that's being brought to my mind as we're having that conversation

1216
02:12:05,720 --> 02:12:09,480
 well i can tell you mem that i don't remember anybody ever saying that i i don't remember

1217
02:12:09,480 --> 02:12:15,560
 being part of the training and and maybe it's because it hasn't really come up as much you know

1218
02:12:15,560 --> 02:12:20,520
 with with officers and so maybe you know how things are if something is not happening frequently

1219
02:12:20,520 --> 02:12:25,480
 sometimes it's it's just not something that's that's probably thought about but it's a good

1220
02:12:25,480 --> 02:12:33,160
 point you also have hearing impaired individuals and so there's ways to make sure that they get

1221
02:12:33,160 --> 02:12:42,280
 the information they need to correct me if i'm wrong is this the complaint form yes that is

1222
02:12:42,280 --> 02:12:45,800
 that's on the website and that's getting that's going to be updated shortly by the way we've got

1223
02:12:45,800 --> 02:12:53,560
 some new ideas that is that's the website right there pointing out okay um have you so you said

1224
02:12:53,560 --> 02:12:59,560
 it's going to be updated pretty soon have you guys put those updates on there um will there be a box

1225
02:12:59,560 --> 02:13:06,440
 for people to fill out their race will it be a box for people to like like be more specific about

1226
02:13:06,440 --> 02:13:13,160
 how they identify because a lot of because if these are the complaint forms this doesn't it doesn't

1227
02:13:13,160 --> 02:13:20,040
 like the color of the person or the sexual orientation whatever it may be of the person

1228
02:13:20,040 --> 02:13:25,560
 may get left out in these boxes it's definitely not my field of expertise when it comes to that

1229
02:13:25,560 --> 02:13:29,400
 i don't know if some folks may not want to fill it out but what you're saying is that

1230
02:13:29,400 --> 02:13:34,760
 it should be made available to fill yeah yeah okay yeah oh i agree with that and so that's

1231
02:13:36,440 --> 02:13:45,880
 okay donna donna so uh yes donna diamond on behalf of uh twu um some of the students are um

1232
02:13:45,880 --> 02:13:54,680
 concerned that cultural competency and sensitivity um is not really being really being um implemented

1233
02:13:54,680 --> 02:14:01,800
 in your trainings um what can you say about that well i'm going to defer to chief dixon on that

1234
02:14:01,800 --> 02:14:08,280
 uh i think that's more of a question for him who wants to do that so we understand that there's

1235
02:14:08,280 --> 02:14:13,160
 always going to be training gaps in police departments so one very concerted effort that

1236
02:14:13,160 --> 02:14:18,120
 we've undertaken in the last 12 months is one putting together a comprehensive training plan

1237
02:14:18,120 --> 02:14:23,640
 we're being more intentional more directional on what training we're bringing here we just had

1238
02:14:23,640 --> 02:14:30,120
 fair and impartial policing come here and train the trainer we had 20 people from within our

1239
02:14:30,120 --> 02:14:36,040
 organization we also opened it up to outside agencies to participate in that that is one of

1240
02:14:36,040 --> 02:14:41,720
 the best um implicit bias trainings for law enforcement there are in the country

1241
02:14:41,720 --> 02:14:47,720
 we're bringing them back to teach the executive team as well as community members so we're going

1242
02:14:47,720 --> 02:14:54,760
 to have about 30 of us in that class we're being very intentional on bringing more different types

1243
02:14:54,760 --> 02:15:00,280
 different styles of that because we understand you can't just have one training and then drop that

1244
02:15:00,280 --> 02:15:05,000
 and not let it go it's got to be ongoing it's got to be very directional it's got to be very

1245
02:15:05,000 --> 02:15:09,800
 intentional so in the next couple of years and i'm not i'm not going to speak for yance here

1246
02:15:09,800 --> 02:15:15,880
 or travis on this call but they'll tell you that their training has really picked up the pace

1247
02:15:15,880 --> 02:15:29,640
 in the last 18 months and i will say that cultural diversity is a mandated class by tico

1248
02:15:29,640 --> 02:15:34,280
 that uh you must go through in order to even pass the basic police academy

1249
02:15:34,280 --> 02:15:43,880
 so cultural diversity as well as other cultural classes and to the tune of the way we interact

1250
02:15:43,880 --> 02:15:49,240
 with the public with other types of disabilities are now mandated classes by tico

1251
02:15:49,240 --> 02:16:00,600
 does anybody have any more questions because we're going to just about ended and sarah from the

1252
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:11,960
 uh this from the um city manager's office is going to um get on and kind of get us where

1253
02:16:11,960 --> 02:16:15,560
 we need to be for the next meeting and the information that we've requested

1254
02:16:15,560 --> 02:16:23,400
 yeah i i have a question okay actually the communication that just occurred answered

1255
02:16:23,400 --> 02:16:28,840
 my first question so i do appreciate that and that was the um implicit bias trainings

1256
02:16:28,840 --> 02:16:36,280
 and how often those occur but looking at the sustained complaints corrective action document

1257
02:16:36,280 --> 02:16:42,680
 it says that there were um six incidents where training was provided can we get information on

1258
02:16:42,680 --> 02:16:51,720
 what type of training was provided for those corrective action pieces yes we'll attach those

1259
02:16:51,720 --> 02:17:01,560
 to that same graph this is mike again i have two more slides and that's it okay i think these are

1260
02:17:02,520 --> 02:17:08,040
 important it'll explain something uh oops

1261
02:17:08,040 --> 02:17:25,560
 you folks had asked can you see the complaints and there chapter 143 specifically deals with

1262
02:17:26,120 --> 02:17:35,720
 personnel files there are two there are two files maintained by the police department on each police

1263
02:17:35,720 --> 02:17:44,840
 officer one is called the a file and that's because it's section 143.089a that is the public

1264
02:17:44,840 --> 02:17:52,440
 file maintained by the civil service commission and it contains accommodations uh performance

1265
02:17:52,440 --> 02:18:00,920
 evaluations those parts of a internal affairs investigation if the officer was suspended for

1266
02:18:00,920 --> 02:18:07,720
 at least one day so not only does the chief file a disciplinary memo with the civil service commission

1267
02:18:07,720 --> 02:18:13,320
 for the suspension but the underlying internal affairs investigation also becomes part of the

1268
02:18:13,320 --> 02:18:23,000
 public file that's the a file the g file is the confidential file that's maintained by the police

1269
02:18:23,000 --> 02:18:30,120
 department and i underlined i'll read it a police department may maintain a personnel file

1270
02:18:30,120 --> 02:18:36,200
 on a police officer employed by the department for the department's use but the department may

1271
02:18:36,200 --> 02:18:42,520
 not release any information contained in the department file to any agency or person requesting

1272
02:18:42,520 --> 02:18:50,200
 information related to a police officer that's the problem that underlined language means that

1273
02:18:50,200 --> 02:18:58,520
 any if there's an internal affairs investigation and the officer was not suspended for at least

1274
02:18:58,520 --> 02:19:05,400
 one day demoted bypassed for promotion or indefinitely suspended that internal affairs

1275
02:19:05,400 --> 02:19:12,920
 investigation is confidential by law we cannot release it to anyone outside the police department

1276
02:19:12,920 --> 02:19:18,280
 there is some exceptions to the city council the city manager and the city attorney and i won't go

1277
02:19:18,280 --> 02:19:27,400
 into the defined points of the law that provision right there can be only changed by the legislature

1278
02:19:27,400 --> 02:19:34,600
 or through a meet and confer agreement and as my last point points out this restriction

1279
02:19:35,240 --> 02:19:42,040
 is a significant restriction on the ability for citizen oversight of a police department that's

1280
02:19:42,040 --> 02:19:49,080
 subject to chapter 143 in the austin meet and confer agreement there is a specific provision

1281
02:19:49,080 --> 02:19:56,520
 that allows this confidential information to be reviewed by the police monitor there as well as

1282
02:19:56,520 --> 02:20:06,280
 the citizens review committee so when you ask to see the files that did not result in discipline

1283
02:20:06,280 --> 02:20:12,360
 i need to consider whether or not i believe there's an exception to this rule or the statute

1284
02:20:12,360 --> 02:20:18,760
 that would allow you to see it so that's what i'm going to have to kind of think about but that is

1285
02:20:18,760 --> 02:20:25,240
 the law and currently the meet and confer agreement does not provide a provision that would allow

1286
02:20:26,280 --> 02:20:32,680
 anyone outside of the police department the city manager the city attorney the city council to see

1287
02:20:32,680 --> 02:20:40,760
 those confidential files so that's all i have but i thought it was important to point that out and

1288
02:20:40,760 --> 02:20:48,280
 the last thing i just want to say is i'm hopeful that let me stop this i hopeful that this this

1289
02:20:48,280 --> 02:20:55,560
 presentation that i did makes you realize that it's not as simple as just fire the officer today

1290
02:20:56,840 --> 02:21:02,920
 there's a lot of due process and contractual and statutory provisions that the police department

1291
02:21:02,920 --> 02:21:08,600
 and the law department has to file when it follow when it comes to the investigation of alleged

1292
02:21:08,600 --> 02:21:17,000
 police misconduct so unless someone has any questions about those last two slides i am done

1293
02:21:21,880 --> 02:21:31,560
 thank you mike okay thank you sarah okay so i'll take the last item i'm going to ask rachel she can

1294
02:21:31,560 --> 02:21:37,240
 bring up the slide so just wanted to review what is proposed for the next committee meeting and get

1295
02:21:37,240 --> 02:21:42,840
 the committee's direction so when we did review the draft schedule with the committee at the first

1296
02:21:42,840 --> 02:21:49,480
 meeting we had two public input sessions so the first public input session is planned for next

1297
02:21:49,480 --> 02:21:56,280
 week thursday july 23rd and i'm just going to add in after hearing some of the committee's questions

1298
02:21:56,280 --> 02:22:01,960
 tonight regarding the data we'll probably spend the first part of the meeting actually reviewing

1299
02:22:01,960 --> 02:22:06,200
 your questions giving you providing you some of that data that you've asked for tonight

1300
02:22:06,200 --> 02:22:11,080
 and then the second part of the meeting for next week would be this public input session

1301
02:22:11,080 --> 02:22:18,200
 so we've proposed it as follow but we'll take the committee's direction so it would be an opportunity

1302
02:22:18,200 --> 02:22:24,840
 for citizens to call in and speak to the committee to share their experiences their stories their

1303
02:22:24,840 --> 02:22:30,840
 thoughts or their input regarding use of force in the police department citizens would have a

1304
02:22:30,840 --> 02:22:36,760
 proposed maximum time of four minutes per speaker we propose that to be consistent with our city

1305
02:22:36,760 --> 02:22:43,080
 council meetings and public input the committee members may ask clarification questions to the

1306
02:22:43,080 --> 02:22:49,240
 citizens and then the meeting would be proposed to continue until all so the citizens have spoken

1307
02:22:49,240 --> 02:22:58,440
 or no longer than 8 30 p.m we do have a second public input session plan so for some reason not

1308
02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:05,880
 all speakers could speak at that meeting they could be scheduled for the one in august in addition to

1309
02:23:05,880 --> 02:23:11,080
 providing the opportunity to speak by phone directly to the committee we are also proposing

1310
02:23:11,080 --> 02:23:18,360
 to develop an online form for citizens to submit their input electronically what we would do is

1311
02:23:18,360 --> 02:23:24,440
 then compile all of those responses and send the written comments to the committee we do kind of a

1312
02:23:24,440 --> 02:23:29,400
 first round to provide you what we receive within the next week but we would go ahead and leave that

1313
02:23:29,400 --> 02:23:36,440
 form open probably through the end of august so that citizens through the next month can submit

1314
02:23:36,440 --> 02:23:42,200
 that input to you for your consideration as you're coming up with recommendations and findings

1315
02:23:42,200 --> 02:23:50,120
 to report to city council if we move forward with this staff will go ahead and release a press

1316
02:23:50,120 --> 02:23:55,720
 release tomorrow we can push it out through our social media channels through various community

1317
02:23:55,720 --> 02:24:03,240
 groups to try to get as much public input as possible for this committee to consider and then

1318
02:24:03,240 --> 02:24:09,880
 the second public input session would be planned for thursday august 20th and then we just also

1319
02:24:09,880 --> 02:24:14,360
 outlined i'm just looking ahead a little bit further so the committee knows what may be coming

1320
02:24:14,360 --> 02:24:21,640
 at future meetings it's kind of an agenda for thursday july 30th which includes more discussion

1321
02:24:21,640 --> 02:24:28,920
 in regards to some of the use of force policies that we have not provided an overview yet so we'll

1322
02:24:28,920 --> 02:24:39,160
 go ahead and take um committee discussion is everybody okay with the four minute time for the

1323
02:24:39,160 --> 02:24:47,320
 phone calls okay yeah you're just so i'm clear we would not have really any other business or

1324
02:24:47,320 --> 02:24:53,080
 discussion as a committee that night we would be simply to hear public comment correct no

1325
02:24:53,080 --> 02:24:59,560
 we go ahead sarah so it is up to the committee i'm just hearing the discussion tonight thought

1326
02:24:59,560 --> 02:25:05,560
 it might be valuable just to be timely to some of your questions for additional data maybe take the

1327
02:25:05,560 --> 02:25:12,680
 first 30 minutes no longer to to take you through some of that data but that certainly could be up

1328
02:25:12,680 --> 02:25:19,800
 to the committee's direction or we could take public input first and then follow up can i ask

1329
02:25:19,800 --> 02:25:28,360
 a question sure how how i've watched some of the recent city council meetings and i recognize that

1330
02:25:28,360 --> 02:25:36,040
 when people have comments to make it can go for a long time so i'm wondering i see that it says six

1331
02:25:36,040 --> 02:25:42,120
 to eight thirty does that mean we're not taking any more comments at eight thirty comments until

1332
02:25:42,120 --> 02:25:50,520
 they're done until they're done and if there's more the cutoff will be at eight thirty okay and

1333
02:25:50,520 --> 02:25:57,400
 then there'll be another session where if they didn't get through this time they'll continue over

1334
02:25:57,400 --> 02:26:05,640
 into the next public session session yeah i just want to offer offer up an option because i don't

1335
02:26:05,640 --> 02:26:12,040
 know how many people might register or call in that we could possibly hear those updates on the

1336
02:26:12,040 --> 02:26:19,400
 30th when we're having more info about use of force from the police department and allow

1337
02:26:19,400 --> 02:26:25,960
 for more time for public comment but that's just my suggestion but i want that's an option well

1338
02:26:25,960 --> 02:26:33,720
 that that could be fine but i think that since you ask it and we're um right in the thick i

1339
02:26:33,720 --> 02:26:38,440
 think we should stay consistent with the meetings and the information that you asked for that we

1340
02:26:38,440 --> 02:26:45,000
 bring it back so there's not a big time lapse in between that and we could probably knock that out

1341
02:26:45,000 --> 02:26:52,920
 the first 30 minutes and then um we would have more time for the for the phone calls and the

1342
02:26:52,920 --> 02:26:59,160
 questions and comments yeah another thing i wondered is whenever you guys say call in are

1343
02:26:59,160 --> 02:27:02,760
 they going to be calling a certain phone number are they going to be calling it through like the zoom

1344
02:27:04,280 --> 02:27:10,040
 it would be uh calling by phone to speak to the committee and that's how we have established it

1345
02:27:10,040 --> 02:27:14,360
 for the city council and for the other boards and commissions and there's just some technical

1346
02:27:14,360 --> 02:27:21,640
 and security reasons why it's very difficult to do um allow individuals to call in by zoom with

1347
02:27:21,640 --> 02:27:29,800
 video content yeah what's the number uh we will have that for you tomorrow morning i don't have

1348
02:27:29,800 --> 02:27:36,040
 it off hand but we'll give you a press release um that we could then share out to the the community

1349
02:27:36,040 --> 02:27:40,120
 cool yeah that's what i was worried about i'm thinking like we gotta want to

1350
02:27:40,120 --> 02:27:47,240
 tell as many people as possible so thank you lillian i was just gonna ask if you could send a

1351
02:27:47,240 --> 02:27:52,040
 spanish version of that press release i would be helpful okay city council if there's someone

1352
02:27:52,040 --> 02:27:56,040
 that's speaking in spanish if you would allow double times for that message to be translated

1353
02:27:56,920 --> 02:28:02,360
 sure that's a great question i actually um just messaged um about an hour ago our director of

1354
02:28:02,360 --> 02:28:08,120
 public affairs to line up an interpreter um for next thursday evening um and yes we can do it in

1355
02:28:08,120 --> 02:28:17,160
 spanish as well for the press release um it are they're going to be uh what's the registration

1356
02:28:17,160 --> 02:28:23,320
 process i know like for the county meetings sometimes it just seems like they are straining

1357
02:28:23,320 --> 02:28:30,520
 a net you know with trying to weed people out to keep them from basically calling in or coming in

1358
02:28:30,520 --> 02:28:35,480
 so i just want to know what the registration process looks like and how easy it would be just

1359
02:28:35,480 --> 02:28:42,920
 for an everyday citizen to be able to call or you know get on the agenda for the meeting

1360
02:28:42,920 --> 02:28:48,680
 sure that's a great question um and we've learned a lot through um having our city council public

1361
02:28:48,680 --> 02:28:53,800
 comment and that process and making sure um it's easy for for citizens to call in so they could

1362
02:28:53,800 --> 02:28:59,560
 call in beginning 30 minutes before the meeting would begin we have call takers that would be

1363
02:28:59,560 --> 02:29:04,600
 available they would record their name and contact information and tell them they would be given a

1364
02:29:04,600 --> 02:29:10,600
 call back and they queue them up so they don't have to wait around on the line for maybe potentially

1365
02:29:10,600 --> 02:29:16,360
 an hour to two hours they would be given a call back cued up and then put through to speak with

1366
02:29:16,360 --> 02:29:23,000
 the committee and then we are able to ask them questions is that correct that i read that correct

1367
02:29:23,000 --> 02:29:28,120
 yes we would propose um to be again consistent with city council that you could ask some

1368
02:29:28,120 --> 02:29:34,280
 clarification questions um so if something wasn't clear um in terms of the the experience that the

1369
02:29:34,280 --> 02:29:38,440
 resident was sharing um that you could ask them those questions excellent thank you

1370
02:29:42,040 --> 02:29:47,880
 anything else sarah uh nope unless there's any other comments from the committee i just

1371
02:29:47,880 --> 02:29:53,480
 want to make sure we have clear direction if we want to take um the first 30 minutes to review

1372
02:29:53,480 --> 02:29:59,320
 some of the data and questions we heard tonight or if you would like to delay that until the the 30th

1373
02:29:59,320 --> 02:30:04,760
 meeting i think that we should take the my i think we should take the first 30 minutes

1374
02:30:05,400 --> 02:30:13,560
 to review the data that we've asked for and then go right into um the calls from the citizens okay

1375
02:30:13,560 --> 02:30:25,880
 okay does that require a motion or we're just going to just uh by uh show of hands okay first

1376
02:30:25,880 --> 02:30:41,080
 30 minutes aye okay thank you thank you is that is that it sarah that is that is it okay so this

1377
02:30:41,080 --> 02:30:49,240
 will conclude the meeting for tonight um we will be back here again next thursday and the first

1378
02:30:49,240 --> 02:30:55,880
 30 minutes we'll go through the data that we requested and and any questions that we have and

1379
02:30:55,880 --> 02:31:01,000
 then we'll go into public comments so i want to thank you all for participating again

1380
02:31:01,000 --> 02:31:06,920
 tonight and we'll see you next thursday