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 Hi, welcome to the Denton Historic Landmark Commission meeting. Today is July the 13th.

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 The time is three o'clock. The first thing we're going to do is do the Pledge of Allegiances

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 to the US flag. So if we can all stand and I think it's over here today. I pledge allegiance

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 to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one

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 nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. And now, where's the Texas flag gone

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 to? Well, we'll just have the Texas flag. Here we go. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge

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 allegiance to the Texas one state, under God, one indivisible. All right. Welcome, everybody.

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 So good to see so many fancy faces. I'm Mary Anderson. I'm vice chair. Roy can't be with

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 us today, but I'm sure he'll be back next time. I think our first item of business is

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 to look at the minutes. Has everybody had a chance to take a look? And are there any

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 comments or corrections? If not, can we have a motion? I so move. Thank you, Lenny. I see

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 you there. Second? Second. All in favor, can we just do an aye or a hand vote? Aye. Anybody

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 disagree? All right. It's unanimous. Thank you all. That was good. Off to a good start.

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 I can't see everybody's name on here, but maybe we should just do a quick introduction.

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 Everybody can see Ron, right? There's me. Then we have Angie. Where are you? Wave at

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 me. Oh, there you are. Good. Okay. Melody, where are you? Oh, there you are. Sorry. Janelle.

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 There you are. Okay. Good. Lenny? All right. Hi. How you doing? All right. Is that all

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 of us or is there? Don't forget me, Evan. Evan. Hi, Evan. How you doing? And Katie.

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 There you go. I'm here. Good. Good. I'm just trying to see if I can get you all on one

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 screen. Oh, all right. I made it one screen of everybody. Excellent. Okay. So we have

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 a few items. Yes. Do you have a question? Cynthia? Sorry. I didn't get you. Madam Vice Chair,

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 I didn't hear your vote on the minutes. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. I'm in favor. Sorry. Thank

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 you. Where's my mouthpiece? Okay. Let's see. Can you hear me? Can you guys hear me now?

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 Yes. Okay. Great. Excellent. Okay. On our first item of agenda is to hold a public hearing

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 and determine, and it's HLC 20-0008, to hold a public hearing and determine whether the

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 presented expenses resulted in a permanent improvement and/or restoration of a local

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 historical landmark property located at 923 West Oak within the Oak Hickory Historic District.

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 The site is located on the south side of West Oak between Denton Street and Welch Street.

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 And I think, Ron, you've got a presentation for us. Okay. [inaudible]

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 Sorry. I was muted. I apologize. Let me start this all over again. Okay. Let me shut a screen.

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 One second. Here we go. Sorry about that. Okay. Hopefully everyone can hear me now.

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 This is a presentation for HL 20-0008 for property, again, located at 923 West Oak.

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 The subject property is being requested for a tax exemption application. It is within

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 the Oak Hickory Historic District, specifically 923 Oak Street, just south of Oak Street between

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 Denton and Welch Street. This is a view of the home. It is owned by Chris and Emily Galanos.

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 It is a local historic landmark designated. It's also referred to or referenced as the

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 Radcliffe Schultz House for our records. So again, the application or the request is for

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 a historic landmark tax exemption per section 10.128 of the municipal code of ordinances.

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 A property that's designated as a historic site, again, this was designated already,

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 can submit an application if they are able to prove that they have spent more than $10,000

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 in restoration or maintenance improvements of said property, which they have, and they've

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 provided the staff with receipts for the following. They've provided receipts for the reframing

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 and interior remodeling by adding new sheet rocks and other remodeling items in the sides

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 of the house, and we've got some photos of those remodeling. They've also submitted additional

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 receipts, which you all should have received earlier today for additional work on the exterior

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 paint that they did on the house and also plumbing work that they did for the house

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 related to the washer and other hot water heater as well. The total amount that they

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 are submitting is 21,872, which far exceeds, again, the $10,000 minimum requirement for

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 the tax exemption applications. I'm not going to read all of this, but this is that section

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 of the Municipal Code of Ordinances speaks to what they are required to have. Again,

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 they obviously have to be a historic site, which they are, spend more than $10,000 for

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 permanent improvements and restoration. If and when they get this, eventually what will

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 happen is they will go to City Council if the Historic Landmark Commission finds it

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 in favor that they did spend the amount, and it is for the permanent restoration and improvement.

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 The City Council will then vote on this tax exemption, and they would obtain 50% of their

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 city taxes exempted from their tax bill every year for a period of 10 years. So that is

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 something that they are looking to do under this section of the code. The next few slides

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 are just photos of what was there before, some examples of the paneling that was there

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 and the restroom that's shown here. What they've done is basically done the sheetrock, brought

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 it up to code and standards related to the interior. Not much as far as any major work.

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 Obviously, there's some plumbing or tiling that was done, as you see here as the result

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 of the work that they did for this home. Some other areas that they've moved, just the second

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 floor bedrooms and loft areas. So you can see that the exterior, I'm sorry, the interior

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 has been improved as part of this work that they did for their house, for the house. The

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 current property owner actually bought the house recently. It was the previous owner

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 that did all the work, but the current owner is bringing forward this application. So again,

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 they've also, in addition to what we just saw, provided additional receipts for exterior

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 paint work that was done for the house. They've also re-piped the water, hot and cold, and

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 located a washer line and a new drain for the washer as part of the project that they

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 submitted for. And then also installed and relocated a water heater. So a lot of the

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 work is important in order for the house to remain, as in my opinion, as a historic structure,

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 which I believe this work would help in that effort. With that being said, staff is recommending

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 a favorable determination that the expenses presented has resulted in a permanent improvement

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 and a restoration of the historic landmark home located at 923 West Oak Street. That

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 concludes my presentation and we'll be happy to answer any question that you all may have.

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 Yes, ma'am. Mary, it's really hard to hear you. I'm sorry. Please unmute your microphone.

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 There you go. Okay. This house is right across the street from my house, quite literally,

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 and I saw it before. It was redone and I've seen it after. My question is, when were the

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 receipts, I thought I looked and saw receipts for 2005 and then a smaller amount for $4,000

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 recently when our whole sewer line went ballistic. And I wanted to have somebody interpret the

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 rules as to how far back we can go. When was this house landmarked? And because there's

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 a rule I saw that went flying up that said it can only apply to things from two years

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 ago. And I certainly want them to have this designation, but I also want to follow the

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 rules. Right. Let me pull up the staff report real quick. Yeah, I could do that. I can tell

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 you. And I just want to make sure I have the correct information. So the home was designated.

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 One second here. Hey, Ron, can you hear me? Yes. This is Chris Galanis, the property owner.

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 Hey, Chris. All the receipts. Hi, you guys. Hi, neighbor Mary. How are you doing, Chris?

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 Doing well. Hey, all the receipts I have in front of me, Ron, that I submitted to you

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 are from 2015 or later. So I don't have anything earlier than that. So yes. So Mary, you said

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 2005, but I'm looking at the designation. Yeah, I thought I saw five on the summer.

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 This home was in 2015 is when it was designated on May 5th to be specific. And so the work

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 followed in the summer. So again, it was designated May 5th, 2015. And the work followed in August

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 and July and August of that same year. So it was soon after. I think it was just done

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 with that September too. Yeah. Yeah, I got you now. The handwriting was just kind of

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 sloppy. Great. All right. Other questions? All right. If no other questions, anybody

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 want to make a motion? Lenny? It looks lovely. I was just unmuting myself, not really raising

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 my hand, but that's fine. I will make a motion that we approve HL200008. And can I have a

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 show of hands so it's easier to do? Do I have a second? I'm sorry. A second. Thanks, Katie.

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 And can we have any discussion for this? I think we have to do a discussion. Discussion?

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 All right. So if there's no discussion, can I have a vote? Everybody just put up your

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 hand so we can say all in favor, raise your hand. Let's see. That leaves out Melody. I

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 guess, oh wait, I have two of you. Oh, okay. Gotcha. All right. So all opposed? All right.

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 The motion carries unanimously. Thank you all. Sure. Do we miss Melody? Is she out?

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 No, no, she's there. It's just, she's got a voice on one and yeah, I know it took me

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 a second to. Madam Vice Chair, I didn't hear your vote. Oh, I'm sorry. I raised my, I did

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 raising my hand. I was unanimous. Yes. My apologies. That's right. I was doing hand

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 just because it was easier to count. I don't know everybody's voice so well. All right.

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 So the motion carries. All right. Let me move on to our next agenda item. COA 20-0010, hold

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 a public hearing and consider an application for a COA in accordance with section 2.9.2

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 of the Denton Development Code to replace existing porch flooring and steps leading

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 to the porch of 723 West Oak, a local historic landmark property located within the Oak Hickory

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 Historic District. The site is on the south side of Oak Street between Denton Street and

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 Welch Street. So Ron, are you, do you have a presentation? Okay. We do have, we do have

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 a presentation for this one. Let me find it real quick. Okay. So as introduced in the

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 introduction, it is for COA 20-10 and it is for an application for a COA to replace an

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 existing porch flooring. The property is located again in the Oak

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 Hickory Historic District. It is specifically 723 West Oak, not too far from where we were

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 just looking at the other application previously. The property is located again between Denton

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 and Welch Street as shown on this exhibit. This is a photo of the home. It is owned by

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 Roger and Helen Rikovsky is the last name. Close. It is a local historic landmark, another

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 historic landmark designated home and is referred to as the Lomax House, again, per our records.

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 A very lovely home located on Oak Street. What they are requesting, that is, is to replace

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 the porch flooring and steps. As you can see that the existing wood flooring has weathered

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 and has caused or is potentially going to cause some safety issues and therefore their

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 request is to replace it. These are some shots of what is there now. Additional sections

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 of the porch, as you can see, also seen some weathering and can potentially cause some

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 safety issues. Additional places where the wood flooring is shown extends all the way

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 around to the side of the home. So there is a lot of flooring that they are proposing

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 to redo or replace, including the steps as we mentioned earlier. These steps will be

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 replaced with the same material and then that material is what we have here. Initially when

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 they submitted this application, the applicant asked, you know, would this need to be approved

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 by the HLC and my immediate reaction was no. However, because the porch is also, it also

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 includes these steps and I feel that it is a very important decision. I wanted to bring

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 forward to the HLC for your consideration and therefore we have it here tonight or this

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 evening. A lot of the criteria for the historic district, the architectural requirements,

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 are provided in your staff report. However, I wanted to highlight a couple of places where

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 it speaks specifically to front entrances and porches and as you can see here, the main

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 thing is that the floor covering should not be carpet, which she is not. The style needs

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 to match and because this is of a, in my opinion, craftsman, the use of wood and the proposed

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 wood material in staff's opinion is complementary and consistent with the architectural style.

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 With that being said, staff is recommending approval of the COA to replace the porch flooring

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 and steps that lead to the porch for this subject property. With that, I will stand

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 for any questions. So I, oh, okay, it's Janelle. What was the material there? What's the specific

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 item? Let me pull it up real quick. And I believe the applicant may be here on the call

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 if he would like to chime in while I pull this up. Yes, I'm here. This is Roger Rykovsky

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 and the product we're proposing to use is Fiberon and it's a composite and it's a bungalow

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 color from the Good Life Escapes collection. Janelle, did that answer your question? I'm

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 looking at the staff report and there is more information related to the type of material,

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 but were you, did you get the answer you were looking for? Yes. Fiberon is the manufacturing

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 and it's composite boards. Are there other questions? Ah, Angie. So the composite board,

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 that does not mean wood or it is wood? It is not wood. I guess it's more, mine is more

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 of a comment. Did we not finally get around to approving fiberboard for house siding?

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 And is that somewhat similar to this only for floors, for decks? I know what you're

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 referring to Madam Chair. I believe the certain historic districts didn't approve that as

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 a potential use, but I'm mainly meant for siding versus flooring. So I remember that

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 discussion specifically meant for siding. So what are the rules then to be appropriate

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 for historic landmarks for flooring? Would it be to replace with wood? Is that what is

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 currently on the books? I don't remember. That's a little more detailed. Right. And

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 I try to provide the information that we have in our code in the staff report and again

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 back to the flooring front entrances and porches. When it talks about flooring and just talks

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 about carpet not permitted in that that's all that we have under the development code.

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 Of course, the intent is to replace with like for like. However, the image that you saw

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 that the applicant is proposing, again, this is just staff's recommendation in our opinion,

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 it does meet the intent of the architectural requirements. But again, this is something

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 that I want to bring forward to the HLC for your consideration. Angie. When we are we

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 open for discussion? Have we closed the public hearing? I think we need to have a motion

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 in order to close that. Don't we, Ron? I don't know if we need to have a motion. No,

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 then let us just close the discussion and then we can go. I mean, close the open meeting

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 and go to discussion. Can we do that? Yes. Okay, then let's close the meeting to go to

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 discussion. So Angie. My concern with this is because it's historic landmark property.

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 I feel like it needs to be like for like and that would be wood for wood. It's already

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 been deemed a landmark, a historic landmark property. And I think in order to keep that

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 designation, it needs to be like for like, either one or the other. Either if they're

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 going to go with that kind of composite and it's not going to be wood, then we take away

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 the historic landmark designation. But I feel like if it's going to stay that, it needs

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 to stay with wood. But the code doesn't require that. Well, it does a little. It's a gray

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 area. It is a gray area. It says like for like. And so that is the issue. I just wonder

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 if it's possible to make that which we can't see very much one form and then that which

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 is visible to the street another form. I understand the need to get away from wood. Fortunately,

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 many years ago, my house got made into cement for the porch. So I feel very lucky in a way.

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 And is there a way of making the decking of the porch fiber and then the front part that

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 exposed wood? I mean, just a question as our owner running around. Roger. Well, that probably

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 would be possible. However, most of the damage is done on the edge. And if it's going to

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 be remain a wood edge, that would. Yeah, that wouldn't help our problem. Can I see the picture

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 again? Maybe while you can show the pictures again, Ron, just to take a look. And while

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 that's going on, Janelle, you had a question. Yeah, I think, you know, the deck is a significant

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 part of what we see, you know, of this house from the pictures. And I think that, you know,

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 these are not cementuous boards. They're plastic. And, you know, it's wooden plastic infused

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 product. And they do look different. It has a nice look, but it has a plastic look. The

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 fiber fiber fiber. I mean, they are a good product, but they do not. It doesn't, you

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 know, it's not a good product. There's a shininess to it. It appears plastic because it's a that's

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 what it is. It's a composite wooden plastic. Ron, recently we talked, we approved a porch

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 on it was on Oak and I've forgotten the side street. Was it Denton? Did we specify what

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 kind of would they or what kind of material they should use for their porch? The grayish

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 blue house. I remember that's off the corner. I don't think we did. I think it was mainly

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 what was facing the street. The railing was what we focused on specifically, not the flooring

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 so I see your point that the flooring is not visible from the street. Therefore, it wasn't

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 the discussion with the HLC at that time. It was more the railing and the location of

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 the access and the color of the railing. Yes. Mary, I would like to add something if I may.

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 This is Evan. Yeah. So I'm looking at the appendix to the development code and appendix

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 A3655 says that original porch flooring or ceiling materials such as tongue and groove

202
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 planks, also known as center match strip flooring, should be preserved and retained wherever

203
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 possible or replaced. Wow. That I missed. Well, I do know that people have replaced

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 their porches in the neighborhood, the house across from me and next to the house that

205
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 just got this vote for tax abatement. What is it called? The razor house. I think the

206
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 razor house. They replaced theirs with Cypress wood because it would not rot. It was a long

207
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 time ago, I will grant you, but that's what they did and not much is even visible from

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 the street. I'm all for safety. That's why I'm kind of hemming and hawing over here because

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 that porch looks horrible. Right now, it looks like it's ready to fall a little bit in places.

210
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 Well, I mean, yeah, if it can't be replaced in kind. Evan, can you repeat that section

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 of the code that you were referencing? Sure. It's 8.3 subsection five. Appendix 8.3. Of

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 the Denton development code? Yes. Okay. Appendix 8.3 A subsection five. Thank you. My copy

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 was printed in 2018. I'm not positive if this is still current. Yeah, I think that we have

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 a new code in place and that's why I was assuming that it was not the current development code.

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 Our code was updated in 2019. So you may have an outdated one, but it doesn't mean that

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 it wasn't carried over. That's why I was trying to piece the places together if it was carried

217
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 over or not. Do you think I can find something more current? Have we found anything? Yeah.

218
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 I would just like to make the comment that I just think it's going to look substantially

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 different to go with the plastic composite product. I think there are, like Mary was

220
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 saying, there's Cyprus, there's other woods that are less likely to rot, but there's still

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 a wood and they're going to have more of that historical look and be more in keeping and

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 like for like because it really will be a substantially different look to go with the

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 composite boards. And I do know that the Cyprus has lasted at least 10 years. So if that's

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 any consolation, the price is probably similar. Yes, Angie. I'd like to also say, I'd like

225
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 to know why this house was deemed a local historic landmark. And I'm guessing here,

226
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 but I'm going to guess a lot of it had to do with that front porch. And that front porch

227
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 is, it's iconic, it's beautiful, but I think that that is probably one of the reasons that

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 it did. And so for us to now to kind of curtail that and allow it to go with a different material,

229
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 I just think jeopardizes that landmark, that distinction that it has.

230
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 Is there any more discussion? Have we found the porch? The original porch, when we moved

231
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 in in 1996, was in very poor shape. It was patched several times. We continued to patch

232
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 it over the years. It was a painted porch. We replaced the entire porch early this century.

233
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 And upon recommendation of a historic consultant, we tried staining it because wood grain was

234
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 appropriate for the period. That didn't work out. And so in the end, we ended up painting

235
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 it as well. It's been repaired within that time period. We've had two major repairs of

236
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 the porch itself due to rotting wood issues and buckling. And now it's in the state it

237
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 is. And so we were just trying to avoid any more of that or any more expense every 15

238
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 years or so. The look of it, we have a sample of the flooring, which I wasn't able to turn

239
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 in because of the COVID thing. But they said the pictures were good enough. In my opinion,

240
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 looking at the sample, it doesn't really have that plasticky look like I thought it might.

241
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 And I was happy with the appearance of it. And so I'm not sure that the photo really

242
00:31:11,940 --> 00:31:17,380
 you can tell from that. But I think it would look appropriate for the house. And we would

243
00:31:17,380 --> 00:31:25,180
 be happy with that. We are very concerned and involved with maintaining historic appropriateness

244
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 of the home inside and out. And we were happy with this decision and think it would be a

245
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 good choice. >> Also, all of the pictures that you may

246
00:31:38,980 --> 00:31:45,780
 see of the porch in the shape that it is at the moment give you a very good view of very

247
00:31:45,780 --> 00:31:54,820
 close up from above. The view from the street, which is so important for the historic commission,

248
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 is actually from much lower. Our porch is raised up. So the view from the street is

249
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 not the view that you see in those photos. Those are done in a way so that you can see

250
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 detail to make you more aware of what water damage does very quickly.

251
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 >> Do we know how much or what it would look like from the street?

252
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 >> You would not see the porch itself. You would see the steps. Just the risers basically.

253
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 You would not see the treads. But that would be it.

254
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:41,820
 >> The house is elevated compared to the street view.

255
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 >> Janelle, while Ron is looking. >> I was going to put up the screen where

256
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 we have a shot of the house if that is something that the commission would like to see.

257
00:32:53,780 --> 00:33:03,940
 >> So we probably need -- we closed the public portion of this for discussion. So we think

258
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 we probably need to keep an answer to one applicant. >> Can you go back to one slide

259
00:33:10,620 --> 00:33:14,860
 back? Please, Ron. >> Sure.

260
00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:21,060
 >> Do you see -- I want to see how the detail of the porch, how the boards are going to

261
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 be exposed. Part of the look of the historic home is the way that they constructed the

262
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 porch. So you can see the one that is rotting and falling apart by that post. But you can

263
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 see how it is like a tongue and groove and they fit together. I know this is more recent

264
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:45,540
 wood but that would have been how it was built. But also the thickness of that wood. I'm curious

265
00:33:45,540 --> 00:33:52,240
 like this new decking that they want to use, if it is thicker, if it is going to be detailed

266
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 in the same way where you have a little bit of the overhang as you have each individual

267
00:33:56,460 --> 00:34:04,680
 board coming out so that you see it. Because that is something that, you know, it is apparent.

268
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 You see it from the street even if you see that edge. You see that green trim board and

269
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 then you see the decking and there is a thickness to that wood. So it would just be nice to

270
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 see the detail. Like if these planks, if they are thicker, are they going to be overhanging

271
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 and, you know, stacked like that? Or how is their decking contractor planning to finish

272
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 that edge? Because are you just going to see the cut edge of the fiber on? It would just

273
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 be interesting to see how the detail is going to be played out to see if it would at least

274
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 look. Because that is going to look very different if they take off the green trim board and

275
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 put in this new product. And do you understand what I'm saying? Just like how that is detailed.

276
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 It is going to be important to maintain that historic look. Ron, did you have the other

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 picture? Sure. Now the picture of the decking. Because you see how on this decking, how it

278
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 comes, it lands. It lands into, you know, like they have got a piece like this and they

279
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 have got the pieces like this coming together. Yes. And then they have a second one that

280
00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:31,180
 turns down like at your front like this. As opposed to looking at myself on the camera

281
00:35:31,180 --> 00:35:34,860
 during this. As opposed to, you know, like the old fashioned way you just have all the

282
00:35:34,860 --> 00:35:42,780
 boards and you are seeing your ends, you know, protruding below the baluster. So I think

283
00:35:42,780 --> 00:35:49,220
 that I don't know if this can be finished in the same way. But I think that it would

284
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 make this is going to look very different because this is a very modern look. The way

285
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 that they finished this edge. And it is going to look very different than traditional, you

286
00:35:58,660 --> 00:36:03,520
 know, historic homes where you see just the planking. And the planking is coming out and

287
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,900
 that adds to all the gingerbread and all the activity that you see going on on the front

288
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:12,100
 of a house is to see each of those little bits of boards peeking out, creating kind

289
00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:21,780
 of like dentals along the front. So if they are able to, like if their deck, the installer

290
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 can kind of look at how that looks. You know, the thickness of these are often a little

291
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:34,660
 bit thicker as well. I think that the original boards are probably maybe a little thinner.

292
00:36:34,660 --> 00:36:39,980
 So I think it would be just interesting to see how they plan to resolve all that. Those

293
00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:46,400
 are just some thoughts I have in terms of keeping it looking historic because, you know,

294
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,900
 you can have a historic house that once you change all the materials and it becomes a

295
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 completely different animal. It is not a historic home anymore. It is not retaining the character

296
00:36:55,740 --> 00:37:00,780
 because you lose those details that were put in originally. That is part of what gives

297
00:37:00,780 --> 00:37:06,220
 it that feel. I think it is going to look totally different. I agree. I think it is

298
00:37:06,220 --> 00:37:11,060
 going to look very different. It is going to look totally different mostly because it

299
00:37:11,060 --> 00:37:16,100
 is not going to be painted. And that is something I don't want to do is to paint this because

300
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:23,140
 I think it has a good look already. The installation of this product, there won't be end boards.

301
00:37:23,140 --> 00:37:30,100
 There will be one continuous long board on the edge and the boards will be laid similarly

302
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:35,380
 with what has been installed with the current wood floor. But there will be like a trim

303
00:37:35,380 --> 00:37:44,740
 board with the same product so that the fiber on edges aren't showing to the street. It

304
00:37:44,740 --> 00:37:52,860
 will just be like the edge of a straight board. But that I think is the point, Roger, is that

305
00:37:52,860 --> 00:37:57,860
 I don't like the change of the look with the view to the street. Did I get everybody's

306
00:37:57,860 --> 00:38:03,940
 issue correctly, Janelle, Evan, and Angie? I think that is one of the major points of

307
00:38:03,940 --> 00:38:10,700
 that. So this is actually kind of closed, Roger, that it is kind of our discussion.

308
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:15,940
 So we will have to wait unless we ask you a question, I believe. That is true. Ron?

309
00:38:15,940 --> 00:38:23,620
 So if we can hold off on the applicant unless the commission requests clarification or has

310
00:38:23,620 --> 00:38:29,060
 a question of the applicant. So is there other discussion? Does anybody else have anything

311
00:38:29,060 --> 00:38:39,780
 to add? If not, I would love to hear a motion. I move that we deny the application. Is there

312
00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:48,600
 a second? All right. Now it is open for discussion again for this motion. The motion is to deny

313
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:54,100
 this application. Is there anybody that is on the commission that wishes to speak to

314
00:38:54,100 --> 00:39:02,420
 this? Does it make a difference whether we deny or could we delay and allow the homeowner

315
00:39:02,420 --> 00:39:13,420
 to seek perhaps Cypress to replace the wood or the nonwood that they are currently using

316
00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:21,100
 in terms of filing a new request and fees and all? Is that possible, Ron? It would be

317
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:28,020
 -- if you deny this, it would be for the Fiberon composite material. Anything after that would

318
00:39:28,020 --> 00:39:32,860
 be in my opinion a significant difference or different application and they can submit

319
00:39:32,860 --> 00:39:39,140
 that next month if they wanted to. And what about the cost? There is no cost associated

320
00:39:39,140 --> 00:39:50,820
 with it. They would be able to submit as they did the first one. Okay. Other discussion?

321
00:39:50,820 --> 00:39:59,740
 If so, shall we vote? All those in favor of denying the certificate of appropriateness

322
00:39:59,740 --> 00:40:16,660
 for the Flex Tron porch deck, I think it is Fiberon porch decking on COA 20-0010. All

323
00:40:16,660 --> 00:40:27,500
 those in favor of denying that, please raise your hand so we can count. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

324
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:34,860
 And all those -- I have to go to -- sorry, forgot to vote 6. All those opposed? All those

325
00:40:34,860 --> 00:40:41,220
 not agreeing. It is unanimous. Hopefully our applicant will come back again shortly so

326
00:40:41,220 --> 00:40:50,820
 we can get his deck fixed. Thank you for participating today. All right. Let me get grouped together.

327
00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:58,540
 Are we ready for our next one? Let me take a water break here for a second. All right.

328
00:40:58,540 --> 00:41:10,260
 So the next up is COA 20-0011 to hold a public hearing and consider an application for certificate

329
00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:15,860
 of appropriateness in accordance with section 2.9.2 of the Denton development code to demolish

330
00:41:15,860 --> 00:41:22,380
 and remove an existing storm shelter at 1035 West Oak, a local historic landmark property

331
00:41:22,380 --> 00:41:27,540
 located within the Oak history district. The site is located on the southeast corner of

332
00:41:27,540 --> 00:41:33,780
 Oak Street and Welch Street. So, Ron, do you have a presentation? This is also better known

333
00:41:33,780 --> 00:41:45,540
 as the Evers House? Yes, we do. As introduced with the introduction, again, this is the

334
00:41:45,540 --> 00:41:52,420
 COA 20-0011. The proposal is to remove an existing storm shelter that is on the property

335
00:41:52,420 --> 00:42:01,540
 at 1035 West Oak. Again, within the Oak history district, similar south side of Oak between

336
00:42:01,540 --> 00:42:10,980
 Welch and Denton as previously seen in previous applications. The site is owned by Slaton

337
00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:19,140
 Realty Management LLC and the property is a locally historic landmark designation. And

338
00:42:19,140 --> 00:42:25,500
 as mentioned earlier by Madam Chair, it is often referred to as the Evers House. I don't

339
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:30,420
 have an exact location of the storm shelter, but I'm guessing it's in this general vicinity

340
00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:37,060
 here since this is the only one that I was able to identify. Okay, appreciate that. So,

341
00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:44,680
 the applicant is requesting a demolition of the storm shelter and the next few slides

342
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:52,340
 are just photos of the shelter itself. It is obviously made of concrete. There is, from

343
00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:56,620
 my understanding, from the applicant and the applicant hopefully is on the line and may

344
00:42:56,620 --> 00:43:03,700
 be able to elaborate at a later time. It has standing water. There is no drain that's on

345
00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:11,580
 the bottom. So, it's been an issue for them when it comes to the rain and the stagnant

346
00:43:11,580 --> 00:43:19,520
 of the water inside the storm shelter that is. The other item that they referenced was

347
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:26,260
 that the steps are narrow and not safe and so not really conducive to acting as a storm

348
00:43:26,260 --> 00:43:36,860
 shelter as it was originally proposed. The applicant, again, my understanding from their

349
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:43,320
 application is that they would remove the top three or four feet or maybe two or three

350
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:50,380
 feet from the top and then fill the rest with dirt. Drill holes, I believe, in the bottom

351
00:43:50,380 --> 00:43:57,020
 of the storm shelter so that it would flow or drain appropriately. But fill the storm

352
00:43:57,020 --> 00:44:03,620
 shelter with dirt and just not have one on the property or at least this one as part

353
00:44:03,620 --> 00:44:10,300
 of their application. I'm just going to reference this. I'm not going to read it for the entire

354
00:44:10,300 --> 00:44:18,580
 T. It is just that any demolition of a building or structure, that is why the HLC is considering

355
00:44:18,580 --> 00:44:25,260
 this. We wanted to make sure that any demolition of any historic landmark, one within a historic

356
00:44:25,260 --> 00:44:32,300
 district, was presented to the Historic Landmark Commission for your consideration. The section

357
00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:39,980
 of the development code, section 292(d)(1), references any demolition or removal shall

358
00:44:39,980 --> 00:44:45,500
 consider the following. The state of repair of the building or structure, the existing

359
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:53,980
 and/or potential usefulness, including economic usefulness of the building, the purpose behind

360
00:44:53,980 --> 00:44:58,020
 preserving the structure as a historic structure, and the character of the neighborhood and

361
00:44:58,020 --> 00:45:07,260
 all of the other factors it finds appropriate. These are the four that you must consider.

362
00:45:07,260 --> 00:45:13,500
 There are other considerations that you can certainly offer as part of your discussion.

363
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:23,740
 Staff feels that the existing storm drain is not, I guess, is approvable for a removal

364
00:45:23,740 --> 00:45:33,140
 of the storm shelter. With that, staff will stand for any questions.

365
00:45:33,140 --> 00:45:46,500
 Janelle? Explain again. They're just drilling holes so it will drain and then filling, but

366
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:50,900
 they'll leave the portion that's above. It looks like there were some shutters.

367
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:56,940
 My understanding is that they will remove the concrete at least two to three feet below

368
00:45:56,940 --> 00:46:03,220
 the grade, and therefore it would be dirt. There will be, obviously, some of the remaining

369
00:46:03,220 --> 00:46:12,140
 structure below that two to three feet area. You won't see it. You won't see any of the

370
00:46:12,140 --> 00:46:14,180
 structure. They're taking up a level raised part in the

371
00:46:14,180 --> 00:46:15,180
 steps and everything. Correct.

372
00:46:15,180 --> 00:46:20,700
 They're just not pulling the whole thing out. Correct. Two to three feet below the ground

373
00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:26,860
 level and then filling the rest with dirt. Was that built at the time of the home or

374
00:46:26,860 --> 00:46:32,740
 when was the storm shelter installed? I tried researching that. In fact, I was not

375
00:46:32,740 --> 00:46:37,780
 successful in determining the structure, but I still felt that it was important for this

376
00:46:37,780 --> 00:46:41,660
 HLC or this commission to consider, but that is a good question. Unfortunately, I don't

377
00:46:41,660 --> 00:46:46,340
 have an answer. I have a little bit of information for that.

378
00:46:46,340 --> 00:46:51,020
 The information I have is does everybody remember Dorothy Bertine, the watercolorist who recently

379
00:46:51,020 --> 00:46:55,300
 passed away a couple of years ago? She painted beautiful pictures of homes that

380
00:46:55,300 --> 00:47:02,960
 no longer exist in Denton and in the historic district. At any rate, in her master's thesis,

381
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:08,760
 she wrote about the history of the Evers house. I just have a couple of pieces. Her thesis

382
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:18,100
 was published in 1975, but clearly she's relating it back to another time. Mrs. Lula Evers trip

383
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:23,100
 remembers on another occasion how all the neighbors shared in the use of this cellar,

384
00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:30,900
 as well as the social life of the house. One day, when the unusual storms come up, all

385
00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:34,700
 of the family prepared to spend the night in the cellar only to find that it was already

386
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:40,580
 full and some more people were waiting outside hoping to get inside. The storm shelter outside,

387
00:47:40,580 --> 00:47:47,220
 she went back to the house. It's been around before 1975 and she's doing the history that

388
00:47:47,220 --> 00:47:55,080
 Mrs. Lula Elvers trip was talking about her mother. This goes back many, many years ago.

389
00:47:55,080 --> 00:48:00,900
 This is in fact probably one of the first storm shelters in Denton. It is historically

390
00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:07,920
 significant and that I think is something we need to keep in mind. Also, I do believe

391
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:15,700
 that this house is a registered Texas historic landmark. I think it was done in 2017. Therefore,

392
00:48:15,700 --> 00:48:20,100
 that has bearing on what we're going to talk about. Who was anybody had a? All right, Angie.

393
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:27,900
 I have two questions. One is what are the dimensions of the storm shelter and has the

394
00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:34,300
 applicant looked into refurbishing, maybe waterproofing, because for what I've heard

395
00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:41,700
 is it was due to water there. Is it possible to waterproof it? And then the stairs being

396
00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:49,540
 narrow, that's true with every historic structure that we have. So, I get that that can't sway

397
00:48:49,540 --> 00:48:54,580
 me one way or the other. But the water issue is I would like to know if there was something.

398
00:48:54,580 --> 00:49:00,140
 Have they checked into any refurbishing? This is Charlie Slayton. I'm the homeowner and

399
00:49:00,140 --> 00:49:04,500
 I'm happy to address that. Just to make sure everybody can hear me. Can you hear my audio?

400
00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:09,860
 Yes. Okay, fantastic. Thank you. Yeah, I'm not sure to the prior question of what year

401
00:49:09,860 --> 00:49:16,380
 that shelter was put in. I know it's quite old. We've gone through a series of attempts

402
00:49:16,380 --> 00:49:23,100
 to try to keep that from flooding. Normally in Iran, I think you had a picture there of

403
00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:29,140
 the steps that looked out from that. You can see a water line associated with that that

404
00:49:29,140 --> 00:49:35,500
 goes probably up to about, you know, two to three feet below the surface level of the

405
00:49:35,500 --> 00:49:43,680
 stairs. So, it's unusable. And let's see if you can see that right there. If you look

406
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:49,060
 about the third step down, you can see a line right there on the left-hand side of that

407
00:49:49,060 --> 00:49:54,540
 picture. That's where the water level gets to unless it's constantly pumped. And I've

408
00:49:54,540 --> 00:50:01,660
 worn out about three different sump pumps trying to keep that flooding from occurring.

409
00:50:01,660 --> 00:50:08,320
 Problematically, as you all well know, that you can't take and discharge flood water like

410
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,420
 that into the storm sewer. Code doesn't allow you to do that. So, you have to put that out

411
00:50:13,420 --> 00:50:17,980
 into the yard or you actually have to put that onto the driveway. That water goes down

412
00:50:17,980 --> 00:50:25,820
 into the gutter and transitions to the south there on Welch Street because the closest

413
00:50:25,820 --> 00:50:35,940
 storm discharge is around the corner, right there on Welch. So, that pumping it creates

414
00:50:35,940 --> 00:50:40,380
 a hazard. A lot of water in the gutter down there and I've kind of cringed a couple of

415
00:50:40,380 --> 00:50:46,580
 times and I've tried to pump it down. We have talked to different people. I had a company

416
00:50:46,580 --> 00:50:54,500
 come in and actually do a fairly extensive renovation in the half basement that is underneath

417
00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:59,980
 the house, which now functions as a laundry room down there. We went ahead and we put

418
00:50:59,980 --> 00:51:07,140
 a lot of guttering down underneath the ground and put some pumps and all that in there.

419
00:51:07,140 --> 00:51:14,200
 It's about $3,000 or $4,000 a project for that laundry room. In conversations with them,

420
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:20,940
 this is much lower and accumulates a lot more water. So, it would just be a constant recirculation

421
00:51:20,940 --> 00:51:25,260
 of groundwater through there. Those of you that have lived in that area longer than I

422
00:51:25,260 --> 00:51:30,460
 have, I don't know if this is a historic problem associated with the levels of groundwater

423
00:51:30,460 --> 00:51:38,220
 in that area or not, but we've seen a lot of flooding. So, in answer to your question,

424
00:51:38,220 --> 00:51:46,860
 we've taken a look at it. We consider it to be not resolvable as far as remediation of

425
00:51:46,860 --> 00:51:53,380
 the flooding to that issue. And not only understand the comment about the stairs, but if you can

426
00:51:53,380 --> 00:51:59,340
 also look over to the left-hand side of the left picture, you can see the rod associated

427
00:51:59,340 --> 00:52:03,700
 with the storm doors. We're going to do a set of storm doors about every year or two

428
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:09,820
 on that because of the presence of the moisture underneath that. So, I consider it a flood

429
00:52:09,820 --> 00:52:18,580
 risk, a safety issue associated with the doors and the presence of water down there. You

430
00:52:18,580 --> 00:52:23,460
 all know that this house has been on the market now, and we've received negative comments

431
00:52:23,460 --> 00:52:28,580
 as well from people that have looked at the place as potential buyers that they considered

432
00:52:28,580 --> 00:52:29,580
 a nuisance.

433
00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:34,980
 Mr. Sleightman, are you a registered hydrologist about floodplains and things?

434
00:52:34,980 --> 00:52:35,980
 No.

435
00:52:35,980 --> 00:52:37,980
 Just an opinion then?

436
00:52:37,980 --> 00:52:38,980
 Yes.

437
00:52:38,980 --> 00:52:44,980
 I have never seen that area flood. I live about less than 200 yards from your house.

438
00:52:44,980 --> 00:52:49,140
 So, I've never seen that area flood. It would have been useful had you had pictures of the

439
00:52:49,140 --> 00:52:53,740
 water raising. I know the water table in Denton is high, but that part of the Evers house is

440
00:52:53,740 --> 00:52:57,620
 at least three or four feet above the street level. And I can assure you, Welch doesn't

441
00:52:57,620 --> 00:53:01,660
 flood, since I have lived there, unless we have about 10 inches in an hour. I've lived

442
00:53:01,660 --> 00:53:06,620
 there for 16 years. I have not noticed this. It would be helpful in your application if

443
00:53:06,620 --> 00:53:11,380
 you had reports from the people that you had done and detailed reports. This, I think,

444
00:53:11,380 --> 00:53:17,620
 is a very historic structure. And it is also, according to Denton County records, Melody,

445
00:53:17,620 --> 00:53:23,420
 you might correct me, but this is a registered Texas historic landmark. And therefore, any

446
00:53:23,420 --> 00:53:28,740
 changes actually have to come from that have to be approved by them before us. So, I think

447
00:53:28,740 --> 00:53:31,100
 we may be in the wrong spot altogether.

448
00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:37,780
 Are there any other comments? Yes, Cynthia?

449
00:53:37,780 --> 00:53:45,780
 Madam Vice Chair, I just wanted to ask that you ask the property owners their name and

450
00:53:45,780 --> 00:53:50,700
 address and invite them to speak. A couple of them have jumped into the meeting. And

451
00:53:50,700 --> 00:53:55,380
 I just want to make sure that everyone that's listening to the meeting knows who's speaking.

452
00:53:55,380 --> 00:54:01,620
 Mr. Slayton, are you still online and can you speak to giving your full name and address?

453
00:54:01,620 --> 00:54:08,340
 Yes, most certainly. Charles Slayton and my address is 103 5 West Oak Street.

454
00:54:08,340 --> 00:54:11,940
 You live on Oak right now? It's my primary residence, yes.

455
00:54:11,940 --> 00:54:18,620
 Gee, I never see your realm. Sorry.

456
00:54:18,620 --> 00:54:21,020
 I have a question, another question.

457
00:54:21,020 --> 00:54:28,700
 Yes, please. I'm sorry. Angie. So I would like to know if the flooding and that is from

458
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:34,460
 groundwater going into it, or is it groundwater coming up from underneath?

459
00:54:34,460 --> 00:54:42,060
 Yeah, happy to tell you what the folks told me on the basement over at the main house

460
00:54:42,060 --> 00:54:50,380
 is they said that it was based on groundwater coming up from the bottom and and infiltrating

461
00:54:50,380 --> 00:54:53,440
 in that in that way. So you don't know if that's what's happening

462
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:58,860
 in this store shelter. That's what's happening in the basement. I need to know what's causing

463
00:54:58,860 --> 00:55:05,040
 the water and what we are discussing here today, which is the storm shelter.

464
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:09,640
 It's it's it's my opinion. And I don't have a hydrologist to verify that. But it's my

465
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:14,900
 opinion that it's groundwater that's infiltrating into the into the basement.

466
00:55:14,900 --> 00:55:18,500
 Groundwater from the top, not from the bottom. From underneath. I'm sorry, groundwater would

467
00:55:18,500 --> 00:55:22,900
 be underneath. Yeah, underneath. OK, Janelle.

468
00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:31,260
 Yes, I just was curious. I would, you know, if if they got further information and there

469
00:55:31,260 --> 00:55:38,380
 was a problem with the the cellar and groundwater, I don't understand how that would require

470
00:55:38,380 --> 00:55:43,140
 the removal of the upper portion. But I think you could definitely probably fill in the

471
00:55:43,140 --> 00:55:49,060
 basement and retain that exterior that kind of adds to that, you know, the old school

472
00:55:49,060 --> 00:55:55,040
 look. So I was wondering if there was another reason that you plan to remove the entire

473
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,060
 entrance and indoors other than just the doors requiring maintenance.

474
00:55:59,060 --> 00:56:10,580
 Would you like for me to answer that? Yes, I think that. Oh, OK, certainly. The the approach

475
00:56:10,580 --> 00:56:18,140
 to the demolition was recommended by the contractor who took a look at that. There's no real reason

476
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:26,300
 not to to to take that out. And I've I'm in the health care business. We do hospitals

477
00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:31,900
 and I've demolished hospital sites before and basements. And normally what one does,

478
00:56:31,900 --> 00:56:37,420
 if there's not a plan to rebuild on that site, you just go ahead and knock the sidewalls

479
00:56:37,420 --> 00:56:42,660
 down into the bottom and fill it on top. Now, doing that precludes your ability to build

480
00:56:42,660 --> 00:56:47,620
 on top of that anymore. So that's not that you would ever build on top of that, that

481
00:56:47,620 --> 00:56:54,180
 location for that storm cellar. But it's just the approach that was recommended by the contractor.

482
00:56:54,180 --> 00:56:58,500
 I don't have any problem with filling it in. I think that would eliminate the flood risk

483
00:56:58,500 --> 00:57:05,220
 and it would probably eliminate any safety concerns as well.

484
00:57:05,220 --> 00:57:13,140
 Do we have any further questions for the applicant? If not, should we close this meeting and open

485
00:57:13,140 --> 00:57:28,100
 our own discussion? No. Right. Lenny, I can't hear you. You're muted. Can't hear you, Lenny.

486
00:57:28,100 --> 00:57:34,300
 I said I think that would be appropriate. Thank you. If so, let's close the meeting

487
00:57:34,300 --> 00:57:42,180
 and then we can go on to some discussions. Anybody on the commission have anything to

488
00:57:42,180 --> 00:57:55,980
 discuss now? If not, do we have a motion? Go ahead. Let's see. Let's do Evan. Yes. Sure.

489
00:57:55,980 --> 00:58:00,860
 I like the idea of preserving the exterior. I mean, you can't see it from the street though.

490
00:58:00,860 --> 00:58:04,540
 I just pulled it up on Google street view and I looked at it from every angle and I

491
00:58:04,540 --> 00:58:07,860
 go down that street all the time. I've got a close friend who lives over there and I

492
00:58:07,860 --> 00:58:12,500
 I've never noticed the storm shelter, but I think there is some interest in maintaining

493
00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:17,020
 the exterior. I don't see any reason to maintain the interior. I think if that's filled in

494
00:58:17,020 --> 00:58:21,700
 that's fine. I actually went by today. One of the reasons I was a couple of minutes later

495
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:25,980
 than I should have been and you can see the little whirligigs from the outside. I could

496
00:58:25,980 --> 00:58:31,940
 see it. And now maybe I ride in a truck and the meeting is closed, Mr. Slayton. You can

497
00:58:31,940 --> 00:58:35,780
 see it from at least from my truck. I can see the top of it. I knew where it was. If

498
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:41,340
 you walk by, you can see even better because there's a low fence. Anybody else? I thought

499
00:58:41,340 --> 00:58:54,740
 I saw Janelle have a question. Comment. No. Angie. I'm torn with this because of the water

500
00:58:54,740 --> 00:59:02,020
 risk that it could it's it's hazardous. It could be dangerous. We don't have authority

501
00:59:02,020 --> 00:59:08,420
 to tell them what type of door to put on that storm shelter. If there's water coming up,

502
00:59:08,420 --> 00:59:16,140
 it could be hazardous to children. I am wondering though if they have not waterproofed it. If

503
00:59:16,140 --> 00:59:23,340
 they had and it still didn't work, I definitely would go with it. The demolition, but not

504
00:59:23,340 --> 00:59:27,820
 knowing that they've all they've done is pumped water out. I don't know if they've done anything

505
00:59:27,820 --> 00:59:35,060
 to keep the water out. That's my concern with it. But to your point, Madam Chair, I'm wondering

506
00:59:35,060 --> 00:59:41,860
 about this Texas designation if we even have authority to rule on it. My understanding

507
00:59:41,860 --> 00:59:49,300
 is state overrules county overrule city so that they can't go ahead with demolition until

508
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:55,260
 the state approves it, I think. So irregardless of what we choose. So I think that unless

509
00:59:55,260 --> 01:00:12,480
 I'm wrong, Ron. Ron, you're muted. Ron, you're muted. Sorry. Mary did mention this to me

510
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:18,860
 earlier today and I tried to research that reached out to our Texas Local Landmark Commission.

511
01:00:18,860 --> 01:00:24,580
 I haven't gotten a response. But if anything happens today, for example, if it was approved,

512
01:00:24,580 --> 01:00:32,020
 we will make sure that the Texas Local Texas Landmark Commission will have to provide their

513
01:00:32,020 --> 01:00:37,880
 approval or consideration before we issue any demolition permit to make sure that they

514
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:44,860
 are aware and have made the approval of this subject application. If not, then obviously

515
01:00:44,860 --> 01:00:50,420
 we would not issue any demolition permit. Melody, I believe it's on the county record

516
01:00:50,420 --> 01:00:55,700
 that is a registered historic Texas Historic Landmark. You're on the County Historic Commission,

517
01:00:55,700 --> 01:01:05,980
 aren't you? I am. And it is. And it is. So I'm not wrong.

518
01:01:05,980 --> 01:01:14,880
 Because it is an outbuilding, I would have to take a look at what the requirements are.

519
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:24,980
 And I can, it's worth a call to THC to find out how that chain would work because it has

520
01:01:24,980 --> 01:01:30,700
 dual designation. I would certainly, is there other discussion?

521
01:01:30,700 --> 01:01:37,840
 I would entertain a motion. Lenny? I was just going to ask if we can ask the

522
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:46,100
 applicant, has he waterproofed? So we at least know what the answer to that question is.

523
01:01:46,100 --> 01:01:50,700
 Mr. Slayton? Yes, it has not been waterproofed. And the

524
01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:57,300
 reason that I had not done that is that the people that advised me, I asked that same

525
01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:06,220
 question on the basement next door that several feet higher. What I was told was that waterproofing

526
01:02:06,220 --> 01:02:11,940
 doesn't actually work in that circumstance, that you have to put sump pumps and so forth

527
01:02:11,940 --> 01:02:16,660
 down in there because you can't prevent the water from seeping up due to hydrostatic pressure

528
01:02:16,660 --> 01:02:21,220
 through the cracks in the thing. So no, we did not try that. That was just based on prior

529
01:02:21,220 --> 01:02:28,700
 advice. Off on another question. I'm just a little concerned with the lack of background

530
01:02:28,700 --> 01:02:35,020
 and a lot of opinions going on. It greatly concerns me that we don't have any of this

531
01:02:35,020 --> 01:02:39,900
 information in front of us. I don't know how you all feel, but I don't have that in front

532
01:02:39,900 --> 01:02:46,780
 of me. Anybody else? Anybody have comments, questions?

533
01:02:46,780 --> 01:02:55,820
 I was just going to say that regardless of the state and county decision to approve or

534
01:02:55,820 --> 01:03:02,500
 not overriding ours, I don't think there's anything that actually prohibits us from ruling

535
01:03:02,500 --> 01:03:07,860
 on it. Maybe not, but I hope that the final say,

536
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:13,260
 if it is a registered Texas Historic Landmark, that nothing gets granted no matter what we

537
01:03:13,260 --> 01:03:31,820
 say until they have their say. I do think it's worthwhile to research this

538
01:03:31,820 --> 01:03:41,380
 a little bit more because we don't want to get into any confusion as to its designation

539
01:03:41,380 --> 01:03:47,740
 and who covers what on the property. Does that make sense?

540
01:03:47,740 --> 01:03:52,980
 Yes, and I think a little more detail on what has been done and what has been reported would

541
01:03:52,980 --> 01:04:01,460
 be quite useful. Because I just keep hearing opinions on the

542
01:04:01,460 --> 01:04:05,940
 current laundry room, by the way. That's really what I'm hearing. And hey, it made it into

543
01:04:05,940 --> 01:04:10,100
 a laundry room, so that might happen, Janille. So are we ready to make a motion?

544
01:04:10,100 --> 01:04:14,180
 Oh sure, I'm ready any time. Okay. I don't know if I can get this right.

545
01:04:14,180 --> 01:04:21,860
 I motion that we put this aside for now and have further information as to who's got jurisdiction

546
01:04:21,860 --> 01:04:30,500
 first, the other historical commissions, the county and the state, and that the applicant

547
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:36,220
 maybe comes back with a little more information on more technical information that was requested

548
01:04:36,220 --> 01:04:42,620
 by some of the members. Evan, can we do that, Ron?

549
01:04:42,620 --> 01:04:49,260
 Can we do that, Cynthia? Madam Vice Chair, could I ask the commissioner

550
01:04:49,260 --> 01:04:52,820
 a question? Are you asking to postpone it to the next meeting?

551
01:04:52,820 --> 01:04:58,860
 Yes. Okay. So the motion on the floor is to postpone

552
01:04:58,860 --> 01:05:08,420
 COA 20-0010 in order to find out who has priority on the call of whether this is possible, and

553
01:05:08,420 --> 01:05:13,380
 two, to give the applicant an opportunity to supply sufficient background information

554
01:05:13,380 --> 01:05:18,860
 so that we can make an intelligent decision, not based on opinion, but based on facts.

555
01:05:18,860 --> 01:05:24,500
 All right. So are we having any discussion on this?

556
01:05:24,500 --> 01:05:29,220
 I think we need a second. Evan seconded it.

557
01:05:29,220 --> 01:05:32,860
 Oh, okay. If not, are we ready for a vote?

558
01:05:32,860 --> 01:05:37,500
 Please do so by hand and/or voice. All those in favor of Janelle's thing, raise

559
01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:44,140
 your hand. All right. Let's see. And all those opposed?

560
01:05:44,140 --> 01:05:48,820
 Okay. It is unanimous. We vote to postpone this to the next meeting.

561
01:05:48,820 --> 01:05:52,740
 Thank you, Mr. Slayton, for coming before. We'll look forward to seeing you in your August

562
01:05:52,740 --> 01:05:54,900
 or September. I don't know when the next meeting actually is.

563
01:05:54,900 --> 01:05:58,340
 It'll be August. Okay. It'll be in August. All right. Thank

564
01:05:58,340 --> 01:06:03,940
 you. All right. Now we are moving on to -- hang on.

565
01:06:03,940 --> 01:06:12,940
 All right. Our next agenda item is COA 20-0012. Hold a public hearing and consider an application

566
01:06:12,940 --> 01:06:19,620
 for certificate of appropriateness in accordance to section 2.9.2 of the debt and development

567
01:06:19,620 --> 01:06:25,300
 code to add a balcony access and railing at 607 Pearl Street, a local historic landmark

568
01:06:25,300 --> 01:06:30,380
 property located when the Oak history -- Oak Hickory Historic District. The site is located

569
01:06:30,380 --> 01:06:34,200
 on the south side of Pearl between Denton and Carroll Boulevard.

570
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,620
 It's -- yes. Well, you might want to take a look at it.

571
01:06:36,620 --> 01:06:40,540
 So it's about adding this. I think Ron will take it over.

572
01:06:40,540 --> 01:06:45,860
 This is also, I believe, a registered Texas historic landmark, if I am not mistaken. Melody,

573
01:06:45,860 --> 01:06:56,020
 you might tell me, but I think it was registered in 2016. Ron?

574
01:06:56,020 --> 01:07:03,740
 Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, this property, 607 Pearl Street, is also a Texas registered

575
01:07:03,740 --> 01:07:14,140
 historic landmark. The subject application for this COA is to add a railing to facilitate

576
01:07:14,140 --> 01:07:21,020
 the use of a balcony on the property. As indicated in the introduction, it is within the Oak

577
01:07:21,020 --> 01:07:29,780
 Hickory Historic District. And the exact location is at 607 West -- sorry, Pearl Street. And

578
01:07:29,780 --> 01:07:36,100
 you can see it by the red identification. It's between Denton and Carroll Boulevard.

579
01:07:36,100 --> 01:07:43,740
 This is a view from the street of the home. It is currently owned by David Gray. In addition

580
01:07:43,740 --> 01:07:49,500
 to a Texas local landmark, it's also a locally designated historic landmark and is referred

581
01:07:49,500 --> 01:07:59,380
 to as the Simmons-Maxwell House. The applicant is proposing to add railing, as you see here,

582
01:07:59,380 --> 01:08:07,500
 in the two shots. The first one to the left is the existing, and then to the right is

583
01:08:07,500 --> 01:08:12,980
 to show what the additional railing would look like if it were to be constructed. This

584
01:08:12,980 --> 01:08:20,940
 is just a rendering of what that top railing would look like. This is a view of the roof

585
01:08:20,940 --> 01:08:30,020
 balcony on top of itself. Again, the railings would be along the pillars that you see there

586
01:08:30,020 --> 01:08:36,820
 or the wall that you see there. And again, it would be a black iron railing to provide

587
01:08:36,820 --> 01:08:43,620
 the additional safety as this balcony is used.

588
01:08:43,620 --> 01:08:52,300
 The access to the balcony itself will be from the window shown here on this photo. The door

589
01:08:52,300 --> 01:08:59,300
 will be coming off of a window -- I'm sorry -- a office, I believe. And the replacement

590
01:08:59,300 --> 01:09:09,380
 of the window will be of a door. And again, the exterior door will be similar as the existing

591
01:09:09,380 --> 01:09:18,060
 window -- I'm sorry -- doors that are within the house or on the house.

592
01:09:18,060 --> 01:09:23,280
 The development code does provide architectural requirements as it relates to the Ok-Korea

593
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:28,940
 Historic District when it talks about architectural details, any additions, and then the use of

594
01:09:28,940 --> 01:09:36,820
 color. As stated earlier, the intent is to have the door be consistent with the doors

595
01:09:36,820 --> 01:09:43,580
 that are currently in the house. The only consideration I would like the Historic Landmark

596
01:09:43,580 --> 01:09:50,740
 Commission to consider is that the black railing, iron black railing, would be something new

597
01:09:50,740 --> 01:09:58,140
 to the proposed home. Also, in addition to some of the other architectural requirements,

598
01:09:58,140 --> 01:10:04,580
 we do have specific windows and doors. And as already stated, the style, the size, the

599
01:10:04,580 --> 01:10:11,260
 frames, and the openings will be consistent with the existing doors that the home has.

600
01:10:11,260 --> 01:10:16,780
 And so with that, staff has reviewed this certificate of appropriateness and is recommending

601
01:10:16,780 --> 01:10:24,340
 approval of the balcony access and railing at 607 Pearl Street. With that, staff will

602
01:10:24,340 --> 01:10:32,460
 stand for any questions. So much like the last agenda item, it doesn't

603
01:10:32,460 --> 01:10:38,740
 matter what we vote. We'll have to go through the state ultimately, correct?

604
01:10:38,740 --> 01:10:44,100
 Exactly. Yes. My intent was to provide this information

605
01:10:44,100 --> 01:10:49,460
 to the applicant. Mary did mention this to me this morning. With that, if whatever the

606
01:10:49,460 --> 01:10:56,180
 commission decides, any alteration permit, we'll need to wait after a decision has been

607
01:10:56,180 --> 01:11:06,900
 made by the Texas Landmark Commission. So that will be needed prior to any alteration

608
01:11:06,900 --> 01:11:13,820
 permits issued by the city. Can we vote now and withhold the permit until

609
01:11:13,820 --> 01:11:21,140
 they've gotten their other approvals? That is my hope. We certainly can do that.

610
01:11:21,140 --> 01:11:26,860
 I'm going to maybe ask our legal department. We can certainly put a condition that the

611
01:11:26,860 --> 01:11:36,980
 approval of the COA is pending or is dependent on the approval of the Texas Landmark Commission.

612
01:11:36,980 --> 01:11:44,700
 So this faces the street. This railing faces Pearl. Is that correct?

613
01:11:44,700 --> 01:11:48,940
 Correct. Let me share my screen again. I just want to make sure I've got all the

614
01:11:48,940 --> 01:11:55,060
 facts before I go on. And I wish we had a view of the side of the house. And is the

615
01:11:55,060 --> 01:11:59,300
 applicant present? Mr. McRae?

616
01:11:59,300 --> 01:12:04,060
 Yes. This is David McRae. I guess I would like to know, are there not

617
01:12:04,060 --> 01:12:11,260
 other windows and things on the side? Because that window to door conversion is likely to

618
01:12:11,260 --> 01:12:17,180
 be visible because of the height and where this house is from quite a distance. And is

619
01:12:17,180 --> 01:12:23,740
 that really a balcony or is that a roof? Today it's a roof. They've used it previously

620
01:12:23,740 --> 01:12:29,420
 as a balcony, but I don't know if I would. That's the reason we had someone come in and

621
01:12:29,420 --> 01:12:34,020
 look at it, because I'm not sure I would consider it a balcony and I would want it to be reinforced

622
01:12:34,020 --> 01:12:37,060
 before we'd use it that way.

623
01:12:37,060 --> 01:12:38,060
 Angie?

624
01:12:38,060 --> 01:12:46,660
 This is Evan. I encourage all of us to make more use of Google Street View. I'm going

625
01:12:46,660 --> 01:12:51,580
 back up and down the street looking at this from different angles. And it looks like that

626
01:12:51,580 --> 01:12:58,580
 area is very shrouded by trees. I don't think it's going to be easy for people to notice

627
01:12:58,580 --> 01:13:05,780
 that there's a railing there. The house is kind of raised up and the neighboring house

628
01:13:05,780 --> 01:13:08,140
 has so many trees.

629
01:13:08,140 --> 01:13:13,580
 Trees do not last forever, Evan. Trees come and go. 100 year old trees have gone down

630
01:13:13,580 --> 01:13:18,540
 in storms. So I don't want to use that as our excuse or as our reason to give it. The

631
01:13:18,540 --> 01:13:25,100
 question is, is it historically appropriate to do this, both the color, the railing, the

632
01:13:25,100 --> 01:13:32,220
 changing of the window to a door? And my question for the applicant is, how high is that wall

633
01:13:32,220 --> 01:13:33,580
 on this roof?

634
01:13:33,580 --> 01:13:43,540
 I would have to measure it again. But my guess is it's about three feet maybe. I can measure

635
01:13:43,540 --> 01:13:47,820
 that again. But we did have someone come and look at it. And what they wanted to do for

636
01:13:47,820 --> 01:13:53,820
 the railing was just to make sure it was within code to bring that up high enough for whatever

637
01:13:53,820 --> 01:13:54,820
 the code was.

638
01:13:54,820 --> 01:13:56,820
 And what is the code? How high will this railing be?

639
01:13:56,820 --> 01:14:03,140
 There would have been an additional, I think it was between 12 and 14 inches over the current

640
01:14:03,140 --> 01:14:11,020
 walls. And they were going to, their suggestion was to basically, the inside of the wall where

641
01:14:11,020 --> 01:14:15,860
 you see now where it's kind of covered with roofing material, that they would make it

642
01:14:15,860 --> 01:14:23,980
 a stucco material that would match the outside of the house as it is today.

643
01:14:23,980 --> 01:14:28,780
 Okay. So my question for you, Angie, I'll get your next online, is if you're going to

644
01:14:28,780 --> 01:14:33,380
 raise it 12 to 14 inches, the way you're showing this is certainly large enough for a small

645
01:14:33,380 --> 01:14:37,100
 child or a large adult to just slither right through. So I don't know where the safety

646
01:14:37,100 --> 01:14:44,020
 exactly is. I don't think we have enough detail about that railing. And the color is questionable

647
01:14:44,020 --> 01:14:45,860
 based on the house. Angie?

648
01:14:45,860 --> 01:14:51,660
 Well, my question was that. It looks like a metal black railing does not go with the

649
01:14:51,660 --> 01:14:59,300
 architectural design of the home. Well, I think that could be so cool to have that and,

650
01:14:59,300 --> 01:15:03,500
 you know, to have a door and to have a balcony there. I mean, I think that would be really

651
01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:12,420
 neat to do. But I'm not, I just think looking at that railing to me really detracts from

652
01:15:12,420 --> 01:15:18,140
 the architecture. Is there, have you looked at other types of railing that could go in

653
01:15:18,140 --> 01:15:24,420
 with the architecture design of the house? Has there been other material looked at? I'm

654
01:15:24,420 --> 01:15:30,500
 not sold on that one, but I am sold on making it a balcony. I think that's a cool idea.

655
01:15:30,500 --> 01:15:31,500
 Or a setback.

656
01:15:31,500 --> 01:15:40,540
 I'm sorry. I, yeah, we did look and also consider wood, which I would be fine with, actually.

657
01:15:40,540 --> 01:15:47,940
 That would be a preference of mine. The contractor that we had to come in to give us the estimate.

658
01:15:47,940 --> 01:15:52,740
 His recommendation was this because of the strength of the coupling and the length of

659
01:15:52,740 --> 01:15:57,220
 the railing that went across the, I guess that's the east side, which is the majority

660
01:15:57,220 --> 01:16:02,060
 of the balcony. That he was saying that was, this would provide more stability. But my,

661
01:16:02,060 --> 01:16:08,700
 I would, I'm, either one would work for me. And if we did the wood, if I can get it to

662
01:16:08,700 --> 01:16:13,220
 work, then we could do the wood and provide the stability, then it can be the same color

663
01:16:13,220 --> 01:16:15,780
 as the house.

664
01:16:15,780 --> 01:16:25,500
 Okay. There we go. Unmute. I was going to say, I don't object to the balcony. I do object

665
01:16:25,500 --> 01:16:31,020
 to the humeral. And I do think that I would get somebody, I would get, you know, a consultant

666
01:16:31,020 --> 01:16:35,180
 or something that, you know, beyond just the contractor, there are so many options that

667
01:16:35,180 --> 01:16:41,180
 you could do that would match the style and, you know, be simple and not detract from the

668
01:16:41,180 --> 01:16:45,860
 house. You could also paint the, the metal to match the color of the house. So it just

669
01:16:45,860 --> 01:16:50,620
 kind of disappears. I mean, there's, there's a lot of things that you can do for that additional

670
01:16:50,620 --> 01:16:59,380
 handrail that would not detract from the home. But I do think the black pipe railing is,

671
01:16:59,380 --> 01:17:04,660
 is, is really, it's, it's not a good, it's not a good solution. And I think wood would

672
01:17:04,660 --> 01:17:09,940
 similarly not necessarily be a good solution, but, you know, the house itself is plastered.

673
01:17:09,940 --> 01:17:15,020
 You could raise a little portion of the parapet at the back. I would just, I would take a

674
01:17:15,020 --> 01:17:20,260
 little bit more look at what your options really are, because there's, I mean, even

675
01:17:20,260 --> 01:17:25,580
 if you did metal, like I said, you could do a decorative metal and it could be painted

676
01:17:25,580 --> 01:17:30,980
 to match. There's just, there's a lot more options. And I think what's shown, it looks

677
01:17:30,980 --> 01:17:36,580
 like, like not, not the, it doesn't have the thought put into it yet, but that you, you

678
01:17:36,580 --> 01:17:45,580
 know, keep it historical. It's such a lovely home. Yeah. And I don't think it would have

679
01:17:45,580 --> 01:17:51,820
 a great expense to, to just do, even have somebody consult, you know, like get a designer

680
01:17:51,820 --> 01:17:56,780
 to give you a quick consultation. Historical person. Historical, yeah. You know, somebody

681
01:17:56,780 --> 01:18:05,220
 could give you a recommendation that would save you some time down the line. Other questions,

682
01:18:05,220 --> 01:18:14,860
 comments, questions for the applicant. There's no further questions or comments. And I didn't

683
01:18:14,860 --> 01:18:23,580
 ask and I forgot Cynthia. Mr. McRae, your address is? 607 Pearl Street. Yes. And your full name?

684
01:18:23,580 --> 01:18:28,660
 David McRae. Thank you. I'm sorry. I just needed to do that for legal reasons. Is there

685
01:18:28,660 --> 01:18:33,420
 any more questions? If not, can we close this to, to make it a closed meeting now and have

686
01:18:33,420 --> 01:18:40,460
 any discussions or no discussion emotion? Madam chair, if I can interject real quick,

687
01:18:40,460 --> 01:18:49,140
 just mention that there are two responses or comments that were submitted to the commission

688
01:18:49,140 --> 01:18:55,040
 prior to the meeting from two individuals. I believe most, or all of you hopefully have

689
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:59,300
 received that. I just want to make sure that you are aware and that was something that

690
01:18:59,300 --> 01:19:06,220
 you had? I had seen those two. I do know where one of the individuals lives. I don't know

691
01:19:06,220 --> 01:19:12,500
 where the other lives and how that relates to this particular project. Neither, as far

692
01:19:12,500 --> 01:19:15,980
 as I know, neither one of them look directly at the house. They're just friends and it's

693
01:19:15,980 --> 01:19:19,540
 nice that they have great friends that love them and think they're great neighbors. I

694
01:19:19,540 --> 01:19:24,140
 think the same of my neighbors, but that I think is not relevant to the issue at hand.

695
01:19:24,140 --> 01:19:27,940
 Their comments just weren't relevant. That's fine. I just want to make sure that that was

696
01:19:27,940 --> 01:19:34,620
 part of it. That there were there, that it was some, it was Angie and Angie Williams,

697
01:19:34,620 --> 01:19:40,820
 I think. And Billy, maybe it was Billy Williams and Angie. I'm sorry. I don't remember who

698
01:19:40,820 --> 01:19:52,020
 it was now. I looked and I even, I'm sorry. I don't actually remember who it was. I mean,

699
01:19:52,020 --> 01:20:03,900
 let me pull it up real quick. Right. I had it and I've seemingly lost it. Billy Matthews

700
01:20:03,900 --> 01:20:11,380
 and who is this? And who? Billy and Angie Matthews. So that's one, that's one, actually

701
01:20:11,380 --> 01:20:17,300
 just one home. Okay. Yeah, they both said that they just liked the look and they were

702
01:20:17,300 --> 01:20:25,540
 great neighbors. So that was, that I think was the real, pretty much the comment. So

703
01:20:25,540 --> 01:20:30,140
 is there, if there's no more discussion, can I, can I ask for a motion on this particular

704
01:20:30,140 --> 01:20:45,160
 issue? Ah, yes. Janelle. I motion that we postpone where they get their approval from

705
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:57,780
 the other, I'm sorry. State historical, state historical people. Yes. Is that appropriate

706
01:20:57,780 --> 01:21:07,740
 Ron, Cynthia? Is that something we can ask to do? Madam Vice Chair. May I ask Mr. Mangita

707
01:21:07,740 --> 01:21:15,020
 a question? How long a period does that take to get approval? I don't know how long that

708
01:21:15,020 --> 01:21:21,660
 would take. Something that we need to find out. If we need to postpone to a date, there's

709
01:21:21,660 --> 01:21:27,140
 no notification requirements. So we can certainly say to a date, answer and bring it back as

710
01:21:27,140 --> 01:21:32,820
 soon as we can. But isn't there a time limit that this has to be done by? Correct. If it's

711
01:21:32,820 --> 01:21:38,700
 not, it has to be acted on within 75 days or it fails or it's approved or automatically

712
01:21:38,700 --> 01:21:46,860
 approved. Well then how about let's motion that they return with some alternatives for

713
01:21:46,860 --> 01:21:52,900
 the handrail solution. Can we, can we just have like a up or down vote? I know that sounds

714
01:21:52,900 --> 01:21:58,020
 funny, but Angie, can we, we're in the midst of- Right. I think I want to- We're not ready

715
01:21:58,020 --> 01:22:02,060
 for a motion. Let's- Yeah, but I was thinking if we did, it would be to deny because I would

716
01:22:02,060 --> 01:22:08,460
 not go without it's presented. What is being presented to us is the rail and I, that black

717
01:22:08,460 --> 01:22:15,340
 rail and- And the window door. And the window door. And I'm not in favor of that railing

718
01:22:15,340 --> 01:22:22,700
 as presented to us. So- Cynthia, I think we're messing up Robert's rules, I believe. Please

719
01:22:22,700 --> 01:22:28,460
 correct me. I just have a question. Commissioner Coddham, have, would you like to withdraw

720
01:22:28,460 --> 01:22:35,180
 your motion? Yes, I will withdraw my motion. Okay. Thank you. That would clear it up. Thank

721
01:22:35,180 --> 01:22:44,380
 you. Thank you. All right. So now where are we? We were still discussing. Is there any

722
01:22:44,380 --> 01:22:51,140
 additional or different motion that would like to be put forward? Are we able to- Sure,

723
01:22:51,140 --> 01:23:06,660
 I move to deny as submitted. Do I have a second? I'll second. Angie, discussion now. Lenny.

724
01:23:06,660 --> 01:23:14,140
 I think it would be appropriate to tell the petitioner exactly what we are denying it

725
01:23:14,140 --> 01:23:22,900
 for. I mean, if we wanted a different color, tell him so that when he goes to the state,

726
01:23:22,900 --> 01:23:30,140
 he's already changed to show what we want. I suspect he's listening in, just muted now.

727
01:23:30,140 --> 01:23:35,980
 So I think he's pretty much heard a lot of our discussion, thank goodness. I mean, I

728
01:23:35,980 --> 01:23:40,500
 think in short summary is the railing doesn't fit the house. The color does not fit the

729
01:23:40,500 --> 01:23:47,700
 house. Alternatives and anybody who is a historical preservation designer has not actually been

730
01:23:47,700 --> 01:23:50,380
 approved. It's been a contractor who just wants a quick job and is out of here. And

731
01:23:50,380 --> 01:23:56,100
 I understand that. And I think it's a beautiful house. It's one of the centerpieces of that

732
01:23:56,100 --> 01:24:01,100
 area. And it deserves to keep that historic thing. And we do appreciate the neighbors

733
01:24:01,100 --> 01:24:06,100
 so much, our current owners, for looking after this house. And we want it to look beautiful

734
01:24:06,100 --> 01:24:09,540
 and we want them to have their wonderful balcony. We just need a little bit more, I think is

735
01:24:09,540 --> 01:24:17,180
 what I'm hearing from people. But that's just discussion. The motion at hand is to deny

736
01:24:17,180 --> 01:24:28,500
 the current request for a railing and balcony access at 607 Pearl COA 20-0012. Can we have

737
01:24:28,500 --> 01:24:35,820
 a vote? All those in favor of denying this application, please raise your hand. All those

738
01:24:35,820 --> 01:24:42,500
 opposed, please raise your hand. The vote has been unanimous. I thank you very much

739
01:24:42,500 --> 01:24:47,740
 to our petitioner. Please take our words to heart. We want you to have what you want just

740
01:24:47,740 --> 01:24:54,620
 in a more historical manner. So I think we'll move on to the final, I think the final thing

741
01:24:54,620 --> 01:25:02,380
 for today, Ron, is here. COA 20-0013. To hold a public hearing and consideration, consider

742
01:25:02,380 --> 01:25:08,460
 an application for COA in accordance with section 2.9.2 of the Denton development code

743
01:25:08,460 --> 01:25:14,220
 to replace an exterior door and aluminum storefront with a new sliding automatic door with the

744
01:25:14,220 --> 01:25:19,780
 same aluminum storefront material at City Hall located at 215 East McKinney Street within

745
01:25:19,780 --> 01:25:26,020
 Quaker Town Park, a designated Texas historical marker site. So I think, Ron, probably you

746
01:25:26,020 --> 01:25:36,660
 have a show for us. Yes, let me pull all this PowerPoint. One second. And if everybody remembers

747
01:25:36,660 --> 01:25:46,700
 to mute themselves again. So as introduced in the introduction, this is for an exterior

748
01:25:46,700 --> 01:25:57,020
 door replacement here at City Hall located at 215 East McKinney Street. The subject item

749
01:25:57,020 --> 01:26:04,500
 is brought forward to the Historic Landmark Commission because it is a part of our Quaker

750
01:26:04,500 --> 01:26:12,620
 Town Park, also a designated historic landmark, Texas historic landmark site. And we wanted

751
01:26:12,620 --> 01:26:19,460
 to get the application, the COA application, considered by the Historic Landmark Commission.

752
01:26:19,460 --> 01:26:24,660
 The door itself is located close to where the city secretary, city manager's office

753
01:26:24,660 --> 01:26:31,340
 is located. It's one of four entries or five entries into the city. It is the area right

754
01:26:31,340 --> 01:26:38,020
 here, and I have some photos of that location in the next slide. Is that the door just right

755
01:26:38,020 --> 01:26:42,980
 over here? Yes, ma'am. This is the door itself. If you're familiar with the courtyard, it's

756
01:26:42,980 --> 01:26:48,820
 the one if you're facing the building to the right. That's the proposed location for the

757
01:26:48,820 --> 01:26:57,180
 automatic doors. The proposal is to replace it and to be automatic, but still have the

758
01:26:57,180 --> 01:27:01,540
 same material, the aluminum material that you see as shown there on the photo of the

759
01:27:01,540 --> 01:27:09,260
 existing door that's currently in place. This is a photo of what the interior looks like

760
01:27:09,260 --> 01:27:15,300
 at this time, the existing location. This request came from our city manager's office.

761
01:27:15,300 --> 01:27:20,140
 I believe there were some discussion with city council, but ultimately the city manager's

762
01:27:20,140 --> 01:27:26,980
 office requested that there be an automatic door for several reasons. One, it will serve

763
01:27:26,980 --> 01:27:35,380
 as a single point of entry. It does provide more accessible for the ADA to be able to

764
01:27:35,380 --> 01:27:42,820
 open as people approach. And then last, because of COVID-19, the ability to have a touch-free

765
01:27:42,820 --> 01:27:50,700
 entrance at City Hall was another reason for this proposed application or this proposed

766
01:27:50,700 --> 01:27:58,580
 application. These are some schematics, specifications for what it would look like. The one to the

767
01:27:58,580 --> 01:28:05,580
 left is the interior vantage point, very similar to what it would look on the exterior, but

768
01:28:05,580 --> 01:28:12,020
 obviously you can see that the sliding doors are going to be different from what is there

769
01:28:12,020 --> 01:28:17,980
 now. And I don't know if you need specific information on dimensions, but you can see

770
01:28:17,980 --> 01:28:24,620
 it's your typical automatic sliding door as you've entered in any other locations that

771
01:28:24,620 --> 01:28:30,940
 may have this type of door. With this application, with the review of what was submitted, staff

772
01:28:30,940 --> 01:28:37,580
 is recommending approval of the COA to replace the exterior door and aluminum storefront

773
01:28:37,580 --> 01:28:43,460
 to be of a sliding automatic door here at City Hall. With that, staff will stand for

774
01:28:43,460 --> 01:28:50,700
 any questions. Thank you, Ron. Oops, sorry. Angie? Well, I don't have a question, but

775
01:28:50,700 --> 01:28:56,700
 I'm going to say good job with like-for-like kind. It's what we like to see, and I don't

776
01:28:56,700 --> 01:29:02,540
 think we need to split hairs over which way a door opens for that, so good job. Actually,

777
01:29:02,540 --> 01:29:05,220
 those are just breakout doors. What I would like to see, could you show me the picture?

778
01:29:05,220 --> 01:29:09,420
 I was just trying to look at whether the little line that's there will still stay there on

779
01:29:09,420 --> 01:29:14,740
 the sliding doors, or is it just one solid piece of glass? Because these doors have a

780
01:29:14,740 --> 01:29:20,100
 nice little line at about three feet high or something. The applicant, hopefully, one

781
01:29:20,100 --> 01:29:25,820
 of our staff members, hopefully is on the line and maybe be able to answer that question.

782
01:29:25,820 --> 01:29:29,140
 Because I'm just staring at the doors now, so it's very easy to see that there's a nice

783
01:29:29,140 --> 01:29:33,340
 uniform line, and it's the continuity. See right here, I don't know if you can't see

784
01:29:33,340 --> 01:29:38,180
 my mouse, but there's a nice line kind of across, and whether the new ones will help

785
01:29:38,180 --> 01:29:45,340
 maintain that continuity, that would be something that would be nice to see on there. I know

786
01:29:45,340 --> 01:29:48,740
 the door itself doesn't, but it's close. There's a horizontal line.

787
01:29:48,740 --> 01:29:52,140
 Right, I see what you're referring to. Aren't these lanes right here that run across?

788
01:29:52,140 --> 01:29:56,220
 Right, and I mean, I don't think it would be too hard to add that onto that door, frankly.

789
01:29:56,220 --> 01:30:02,100
 I don't know. Billy, do you know if Robert is on the line to answer that question, or

790
01:30:02,100 --> 01:30:09,860
 is it something that we can consider? It doesn't look like you're on the line.

791
01:30:09,860 --> 01:30:15,500
 I hear somebody. Robert, is that you?

792
01:30:15,500 --> 01:30:18,460
 I guess not. Okay.

793
01:30:18,460 --> 01:30:27,260
 Can we look at the next slide with the drawings of the...

794
01:30:27,260 --> 01:30:28,900
 I don't see it. That's what I...

795
01:30:28,900 --> 01:30:35,540
 It doesn't appear to be there, and I don't know if it's capable of doing that, but again,

796
01:30:35,540 --> 01:30:39,020
 I'm not able to answer that question.

797
01:30:39,020 --> 01:30:45,940
 I would be excited if it maintained that horizontal line. I would have no problem. I don't really

798
01:30:45,940 --> 01:30:50,340
 care how it maintains it, whether it's the... They say there's an optional muntin bars,

799
01:30:50,340 --> 01:30:56,180
 which would probably do the same thing. That would be really nice just to maintain the

800
01:30:56,180 --> 01:31:01,020
 overall look, and look is something important. We're changing an O'Neill Ford building here,

801
01:31:01,020 --> 01:31:09,020
 folks. This is one of the Premier Texas architects, and so that would be my only thing. If I had

802
01:31:09,020 --> 01:31:14,540
 my druthers, I would have that on there just as a requirement to try to maintain that horizontal

803
01:31:14,540 --> 01:31:21,020
 line. Sliding doors are great. I couldn't get in today. I was pounding on the door,

804
01:31:21,020 --> 01:31:22,020
 that door.

805
01:31:22,020 --> 01:31:24,620
 Who's got a question, comment? Angie?

806
01:31:24,620 --> 01:31:29,820
 Well, I don't think there's a horizontal line on the door, the glass itself. I think there's

807
01:31:29,820 --> 01:31:36,500
 a bar right above it as you get in, but I did not believe... It said, "Look right above

808
01:31:36,500 --> 01:31:42,100
 that. Go to the door right there." That's the door handle, I think, getting in and out.

809
01:31:42,100 --> 01:31:47,540
 They're going to replace one of those whole panels with a sliding door, and therefore,

810
01:31:47,540 --> 01:31:54,180
 that one will go away. That's what I thought, if they could just put in just a look. Janiel?

811
01:31:54,180 --> 01:32:03,060
 I was going to say that the optional muntin, they can tilt the manufacturer where they

812
01:32:03,060 --> 01:32:08,220
 would like that located, so they could keep in line with that. Right now, it's actually

813
01:32:08,220 --> 01:32:14,580
 two panes of glass. It's a lower pane and an upper pane, so that's a mullion in there

814
01:32:14,580 --> 01:32:22,020
 between that, but they'll be replacing that whole configuration right there. They probably

815
01:32:22,020 --> 01:32:26,540
 could request that, Ron. They could request the location. I had a question on the drawings

816
01:32:26,540 --> 01:32:33,460
 where it had optional... It says, "Optional transom." Where is that? Oh, yeah. Up at the

817
01:32:33,460 --> 01:32:38,220
 top, and let's go back to the other picture. It is a transom all the way at the top, sort

818
01:32:38,220 --> 01:32:43,780
 of. Well, right now, it's covered. Right. You see it from the outside. I don't think

819
01:32:43,780 --> 01:32:49,500
 it has always been covered, Ron. Are they planning to remove the sheetrock? See, on

820
01:32:49,500 --> 01:32:54,820
 the outside, it's just frosted. They'll probably maintain that one on the outside, and it's

821
01:32:54,820 --> 01:33:00,940
 frosted, but I was curious that on the interior, if at some point, they had put sheetrock across

822
01:33:00,940 --> 01:33:06,740
 there for electrical access to the exit light, or whatever, if they may be... Yeah, I see

823
01:33:06,740 --> 01:33:11,700
 what you're talking about, this area here. It's shown on the exterior, but on the interior...

824
01:33:11,700 --> 01:33:15,660
 On the interior, you have the sheetrock. Oh, the exit line, yeah. With the exit line. I

825
01:33:15,660 --> 01:33:19,420
 don't know if that was something that was put in place at some time during the renovation.

826
01:33:19,420 --> 01:33:23,680
 If they're planning to go back and open the whole thing up, it'd be interesting. It'd

827
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:27,740
 be interesting to look at the original plans and see what was actually there originally,

828
01:33:27,740 --> 01:33:34,420
 but... Yes, I... Since they've got it on their drawing, and that's why it's curious.

829
01:33:34,420 --> 01:33:39,220
 Yeah, no, that's a good point. I think both points, the horizontal line, and also opening

830
01:33:39,220 --> 01:33:45,420
 up that window, that transom, are good questions. I just wish that someone from staff can help

831
01:33:45,420 --> 01:33:50,140
 answer that question. I don't have the answer to that question, and I apologize. Sorry,

832
01:33:50,140 --> 01:33:59,300
 let me get you guys back up. Hello. Who's there? Robert? Yes, this is Robert. Hey, Robert,

833
01:33:59,300 --> 01:34:03,220
 did you hear those three? I'm sorry. I've been walking the meeting. I did not dial in

834
01:34:03,220 --> 01:34:09,940
 until just now. My apologies. So, Robert, there are two questions related to the design

835
01:34:09,940 --> 01:34:19,180
 of the door replacement, one being these horizontal lines. Do you see those lines that run through

836
01:34:19,180 --> 01:34:30,460
 the entire windows on both sides? Yeah, those lines are not going to be in the new door.

837
01:34:30,460 --> 01:34:40,420
 That's going to be a solid window on both sides. Those chair rails can be added after

838
01:34:40,420 --> 01:34:49,540
 the fact, though. And we would have those colored of the same like material. Okay, so

839
01:34:49,540 --> 01:34:55,540
 we can add that later after the installation. That's correct. And the second question...

840
01:34:55,540 --> 01:35:00,060
 It's a chair rail where people would lean against the door, but it's probably not going

841
01:35:00,060 --> 01:35:09,980
 to be in the first installation. But we can add that in a later time. Yes, sir. Yes. Okay.

842
01:35:09,980 --> 01:35:16,100
 So the second question was the transom window above. It's currently not shown from the interior,

843
01:35:16,100 --> 01:35:23,500
 but on the exterior, it's there. It's just covered up. What are the plans? Are we going

844
01:35:23,500 --> 01:35:30,380
 to impact this area or adjust this area, or is it just primarily from the door down? Or

845
01:35:30,380 --> 01:35:36,700
 from the... Well, that will have to all be pulled out from the top, and the top window

846
01:35:36,700 --> 01:35:47,660
 will also be replaced. But the blind will be put back as it is right now. Okay. So that'll

847
01:35:47,660 --> 01:35:54,100
 be glass still and kind of the same look? Yes, it will. Will it still have the same

848
01:35:54,100 --> 01:35:58,900
 divisions? It will still have the same look above it with the blind being replaced. And

849
01:35:58,900 --> 01:36:05,940
 it'll still have the vertical divisions on the... Yes. On the transom portion? Yes. Okay.

850
01:36:05,940 --> 01:36:15,380
 Because that wasn't clear from the picture. Is that a part of O'Neill Ford's actual architecture

851
01:36:15,380 --> 01:36:23,420
 or... I know that that area has been renovated before. I don't recall what this area looked

852
01:36:23,420 --> 01:36:31,020
 like before this aluminum doorway was installed, but I would guess that the window that you

853
01:36:31,020 --> 01:36:38,500
 see now, I believe it probably went all the way to the top. Yeah. Looking outside now,

854
01:36:38,500 --> 01:36:43,360
 I can see part of it further down, and it did go all the way to the top. And the horizontal

855
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:48,340
 blinds continue throughout the entire front. So I think that... I'm most concerned about

856
01:36:48,340 --> 01:36:53,860
 maintaining those. The transom is cute, but I don't see it repeated elsewhere, but I don't

857
01:36:53,860 --> 01:37:01,820
 see all the courtyard from here. Sorry, Madam Chair, if I can ask, Robert, is this blind

858
01:37:01,820 --> 01:37:10,660
 just because of the sun? Is that primarily the reason for this to be located there? I

859
01:37:10,660 --> 01:37:16,780
 believe so, yes. Yeah, but it's actually a blind. Are you talking about the shade that's

860
01:37:16,780 --> 01:37:21,580
 above the window in the transom? Yeah. We couldn't tell it was a shade. I thought it

861
01:37:21,580 --> 01:37:26,220
 was sheetrock, but if it's just a blind, that makes sense. Yeah, this area right here, that's

862
01:37:26,220 --> 01:37:39,620
 just the blind. Yeah, it's off of the... It's hard to tell on the tiny screen. Okay, yes.

863
01:37:39,620 --> 01:37:44,340
 That's just holding the top of the door frame there. That's for vertical support of the

864
01:37:44,340 --> 01:37:53,740
 door frame. That's so that when the door slams open and shut, that the window won't flex

865
01:37:53,740 --> 01:38:02,060
 there. And so that part will still be there when the sliding door also goes in. This right

866
01:38:02,060 --> 01:38:12,220
 here, the panel above that, that is because of the sunlight? Yes, yes. Yes, that's what

867
01:38:12,220 --> 01:38:28,380
 that's for, yes, the sunlight. Yeah. Other discussion? Questions? So I just want to ask

868
01:38:28,380 --> 01:38:38,380
 one more time that you said that the horizontal lines could be included in this? Are you talking

869
01:38:38,380 --> 01:38:43,780
 about the ones that run level with the door closure? I'm sorry, the door locker? No, the

870
01:38:43,780 --> 01:38:49,180
 ones that run level with what all the other windows look like. Okay, yeah, the chair

871
01:38:49,180 --> 01:38:56,820
 rail. It would be added to the door. It would make it look so much more like it fit in even

872
01:38:56,820 --> 01:39:09,620
 though it's modern. Yes, it can. Yes, it can. Yes, it will? Yes. Yes. Other questions, comments?

873
01:39:09,620 --> 01:39:16,820
 Angie, Melanie, Katie, Evan, Lenny? I think accessibility is paramount with city facilities

874
01:39:16,820 --> 01:39:22,820
 like this, and it doesn't look that far off from what's already there. Yes, certainly

875
01:39:22,820 --> 01:39:27,020
 just as long as we do the horizontal line, it can be a piece of tape where I like here.

876
01:39:27,020 --> 01:39:31,980
 Yeah, just put a piece of paint or something to maintain the line. We need to have accessibility.

877
01:39:31,980 --> 01:39:40,060
 All right, anybody want to make a motion since I don't hear anybody commenting? I will make

878
01:39:40,060 --> 01:39:55,020
 a motion that we approve this request. Second. This is COA 20-00133. Is it possible now?

879
01:39:55,020 --> 01:40:02,140
 I don't remember Roberts to add a friendly amendment to that. You're referring to the

880
01:40:02,140 --> 01:40:09,340
 lines. Yes. Yeah, the horizontal lines. Cynthia, there's a second. Can they make, I believe

881
01:40:09,340 --> 01:40:14,100
 you can do a friendly amendment? Yes. I would just like to add a friendly amendment that

882
01:40:14,100 --> 01:40:18,260
 they maintain some form of horizontal line that's the chair rail that matches the rest

883
01:40:18,260 --> 01:40:25,340
 and in some form or another. Nothing fancy, just something that visually looks like it

884
01:40:25,340 --> 01:40:35,820
 belongs. And I have no objection. Okay. Discussion, comments? Are we ready to vote? I'm ready

885
01:40:35,820 --> 01:40:41,620
 to vote. Everybody else? I'm sorry, Evan, did you have a friendly amendment? No, I'm

886
01:40:41,620 --> 01:40:46,660
 ready to vote. You have no issues with that, the horizontal lines? Not at all. No, I think

887
01:40:46,660 --> 01:40:51,860
 it'd be great. All right, so Lenny, did you have a question? Are you ready to vote? Ready

888
01:40:51,860 --> 01:40:57,180
 to vote. She's ready. All right, let's vote on adding our accessible doors, maintaining

889
01:40:57,180 --> 01:41:00,740
 the same look as before with the friendly amendment to make the lines somehow shape

890
01:41:00,740 --> 01:41:06,260
 or form neat and look similar. All those in favor, please raise your hands so we can get

891
01:41:06,260 --> 01:41:13,140
 a count for Cynthia. And all those opposed? And again, we are unanimous. The ayes in favor

892
01:41:13,140 --> 01:41:19,620
 of having accessible doors have it. I believe, thank you very much for answering. I forgot

893
01:41:19,620 --> 01:41:26,940
 it was Billy who answered our questions or Robert. So I think that's kind of where we

894
01:41:26,940 --> 01:41:34,380
 are. Do we have any other business to attend to? New business, old business, anything else?

895
01:41:34,380 --> 01:41:45,300
 No? The concluding items, do we have to worry about that? To add into this at all? Yeah,

896
01:41:45,300 --> 01:41:51,740
 that's for any items that want to be added. No, no. All right, do we need a motion to

897
01:41:51,740 --> 01:41:56,380
 adjourn? I move to adjourn. Yes. Can somebody move? Was that you, Evan? Yes, that was me.

898
01:41:56,380 --> 01:42:03,900
 I move to adjourn. Second. Second. All right. So all those in favor? Can I count two hands?

899
01:42:03,900 --> 01:42:08,140
 Thank you all so much for coming. I certainly appreciate coming to the Zoom meeting. It

900
01:42:08,140 --> 01:42:12,860
 was great. Thanks for all the hard work and effort. Have a great week. It's only Monday.

901
01:42:12,860 --> 01:42:15,900
 It's got to be better, right? Thank you, guys. Thank you.