WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:14.580 All right. I'd like to call the July 9th meeting of the Civil Service Commission to order at 00:00:14.580 --> 00:00:26.720 1037. First order of business is introduction of guests. Basically, everyone's a part of 00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:34.880 the agenda. So, does anyone feel like they're a real guest? Seeing none. 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:42.360 We actually introduced Mark Fliniken. He is on your video. He will be the part of our 00:00:42.360 --> 00:00:48.760 Community Services Officer. So, he is actually replacing Jason Pettyman. 00:00:48.760 --> 00:00:56.080 Okay. Welcome, Mark. Glad to have you. I guess we'll be seeing some of you. 00:00:56.080 --> 00:01:07.720 Okay. Next order of business, public comments. I don't know of any. I've gotten no notification 00:01:07.720 --> 00:01:17.560 of any. Next order of business is approval of the minutes of the June 10th and June 15th 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:26.640 meetings. We got those in our packet. Commissioner Roddo, did you see any? 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:34.000 No. I can move that we approve the minutes. Okay. I'll second. John can jump in then. 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.640 So, all in favor, say aye. Aye. 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:45.240 Opposed? All right. Minutes for both of the meetings are approved. Next order of business 00:01:45.240 --> 00:01:55.000 is the Fire Recruit POA. So, I will go to who's going to do it. Colin, are you doing 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:58.360 it or? I'll take care of it. 00:01:58.360 --> 00:02:00.360 Fire's doing it. Who's doing it? 00:02:00.360 --> 00:02:05.520 I'll take care of it, Chair. So, since Captain Fliniken's new, I'm going to kind of walk 00:02:05.520 --> 00:02:10.000 through the process. So, this is what you have before you on the documentation is the 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:15.760 notice of some sort of examination scheduled for Saturday, January 9, 2021. This is the 00:02:15.760 --> 00:02:20.720 annual entrance exam that's administered by the fire department. Everything is pretty 00:02:20.720 --> 00:02:25.040 standard, with the exception if you go down and look under training and experience. Because 00:02:25.040 --> 00:02:31.200 in the past, as you know, we have hired fully certified individuals. So, you had to possess 00:02:31.200 --> 00:02:37.080 your fire and your paramedic certification to be hired. That didn't decrease our recruitment 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:42.920 pool, but it did assist on listing the amount of funds that were required to bring an interloved 00:02:42.920 --> 00:02:47.720 person in and actually get them implemented in the fire department. So, as we discussed 00:02:47.720 --> 00:02:51.880 this, we actually kind of thought we'd try to open the phone and try to create a more 00:02:51.880 --> 00:02:57.440 diverse group of opportunities. So, we are backing off having both certifications and 00:02:57.440 --> 00:03:04.000 now we're asking that a person only possess one. You either have your PCFP fire certification 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:08.320 or you have your paramedic certification. With understanding knowing that now when we 00:03:08.320 --> 00:03:12.840 bring them in, we very well make sense in school for upwards of six months so we can 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:17.160 utilize them. Our recruitment efforts over the past two to three years, even though we 00:03:17.160 --> 00:03:22.120 increased the pool has dropped dramatically. This last test we had only under 30 people 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:27.120 show up to take the test. So, we've had great concerns over that number dwindling. This 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:31.320 is actually the market. It's not nothing we're doing wrong. We're seeing other departments 00:03:31.320 --> 00:03:37.060 open up to where you have to have no certifications. I know they did a survey and I think the city 00:03:37.060 --> 00:03:41.320 of Irving has it open to no certifications. They only had 100 people show up. All you 00:03:41.320 --> 00:03:47.640 had to be is age 18 and drugs license. So, the market is very strong if you're a recruit 00:03:47.640 --> 00:03:51.840 out there. So, we're going to step back this one year to do a test, see if it increases 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:56.440 our numbers. Of course, it will incur additional costs to the city, but we feel at this point 00:03:56.440 --> 00:04:00.360 this is a good call to try to once again open that recruitment fund up and see if we can 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:16.000 get more people interested in the city. Questions? So, with this, if the city is paying for part 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:19.560 of their certification, is there an amount of time that they have to commit to the city 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:32.360 to working for them? Yes, we put a two year stipulation on that. Okay, thank you. Any 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:43.200 other questions? I was trying to read through the form here. It's just the standard civil 00:04:43.200 --> 00:04:49.680 service test. There's not anything additional that they need to study, right? Correct. It's 00:04:49.680 --> 00:05:04.440 a standard 100 question multiple choice test. Any other questions? I would entertain a motion 00:05:04.440 --> 00:05:16.440 that we approve the fire recruit POA. I motion that we accept the POA. I'll second. All right. 00:05:16.440 --> 00:05:25.280 Is there any further discussion? If not, all in favor of approval of the POA say aye. Aye. 00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:34.720 Opposed? Unanimous. Next. The next item is kind of a discussion of the whole testing 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:46.360 procedure and the appeals. So, Michael, do you want to start us off or do you mean with 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:54.480 your insights or Stephanie or? I think it's really, I know last time we had a discussion 00:05:54.480 --> 00:06:00.320 about it and we just put this as a placeholder that if there was any further discussion that 00:06:00.320 --> 00:06:06.000 the commissioners felt they needed to have. So I really kind of defer to you folks if 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:13.080 you think you need to have any other questions or want to discuss it further. Well, firstly, 00:06:13.080 --> 00:06:19.520 ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to say that I apologize for being late. I've not had internet 00:06:19.520 --> 00:06:25.640 or email since Monday at 10 o'clock. So we've been flying in the dark. I have not done any 00:06:25.640 --> 00:06:32.320 work. I'm not taking care of my responsibilities. I was doing tax returns when you called and 00:06:32.320 --> 00:06:40.640 I was shocked. I just lost. So please forgive me. It wasn't intentional. And thank you Crystal 00:06:40.640 --> 00:06:48.720 Babcock for making the phone call. I do apologize that I was disoriented, but not out of my 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:57.520 own wishes. I wanted to say that when it came to having this discussion, I think kind of 00:06:57.520 --> 00:07:04.480 some of the conversation we've had in the last few meetings helped me to clarify how 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:12.600 I need to approach the exams and my job as the commissioner. And then I thank the Stephanie 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:19.720 and Crystal and Michael for having an individual meeting with me to once again clarify some 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:26.520 points. And I feel more comfortable in my role. And I feel that I can do a better job 00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:32.840 of being a commissioner with the task at hand. I realize there's still some room for improvement 00:07:32.840 --> 00:07:44.200 and we'll look to provide input to you when and where we can. 00:07:44.200 --> 00:07:53.080 Thank you, John. Yeah. I mean, again, I feel like we each had a meeting with Stephanie 00:07:53.080 --> 00:08:03.520 and with Michael. If the fire at this particular time, I'm going to pick on fire since they're 00:08:03.520 --> 00:08:11.680 the ones that are here, but also police will take a little more care in looking at in the 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:25.960 questions themselves, so that we don't get conflicting information within approved materials. 00:08:25.960 --> 00:08:35.520 The problem as I see it is it's pure memorization. And what I would like as a citizen, what I 00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:42.360 would like to see is or know is that the firemen are going to make the right decisions in the 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:48.120 heat of battle, so to speak, as opposed to thinking about, okay, well, I'm paid such 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:56.600 and such and such a book that said do this. And I mean, the application of the knowledge 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:04.080 is really the important component in my mind, which means concept. So if we're going to 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:10.520 go with this idea of it's what's written in the book, then we really have very little 00:09:10.520 --> 00:09:15.920 to do as a commission, because there's no argument. You're right. It's word for word 00:09:15.920 --> 00:09:23.520 out of the book. But neither do the appellants have any chance to appeal. And none of us 00:09:23.520 --> 00:09:29.600 is perfect. And so I think we need to serve that role as a commission. But we got to make 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:35.480 sure that we don't have that we have the information and that we don't have conflicting information. 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:42.560 So mission, I'm just curious, maybe chief hedges can address this from a practical standpoint 00:09:42.560 --> 00:09:50.040 is what is done in the field. Very diametrically opposed to what's in these books. I mean, 00:09:50.040 --> 00:09:54.560 are we having to memorize and study stuff that really isn't the way it's done in the 00:09:54.560 --> 00:10:01.200 field? Well, you'll never be able to test individuals 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:05.760 and apply to build application. I think while we do include our standard operating procedures, 00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:10.840 procedures are more guidelines. I know last meeting there was discussion about many lots 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:15.520 of your fire fighters, more critical thinking skills. I have absolutely 100% faith they're 00:10:15.520 --> 00:10:21.240 able to do that out on the fire ground and EMS calls. Everybody takes the service test 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:27.720 understand it is anomaly. It is memorization over here and not as much can be applied in 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:32.640 the field. There are information you can take the path of an aerial ladder above a building. 00:10:32.640 --> 00:10:38.680 Yes, it's three foot above or six foot above the roof. It's based on the situation. Every 00:10:38.680 --> 00:10:43.600 situation is different. The book cannot identify what we're going today versus they go in possibly 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:48.840 tomorrow as well. So I don't know how best to describe it. It 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:55.120 is a very slice of time a picture that taking this test on what they need those information, 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:59.440 what they apply in the field is totally different. And they understand that they know that going 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:05.120 into it. If you're a 1.3 department, that's just a fact of it. They know 1.3 inside and 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:12.560 out. This is well by administration does well. So sometimes not said people put a lot of 00:11:12.560 --> 00:11:16.520 effort studying sometimes put more effort in the appeals process because they have learned 00:11:16.520 --> 00:11:21.600 over the history that they can actually make more progress in a short amount of time, but 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:26.960 kind of working the appeals process. So everything that our association has done with the city 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:32.400 has been trying to limit that. I don't want to use the term manipulation, but it's not. 00:11:32.400 --> 00:11:37.920 It's just utilizing the appeals process to increase your score on the test versus actually 00:11:37.920 --> 00:11:44.280 applying the time to memorize. Unfortunately, that's what it is. 1.3 is from my perspective. 00:11:44.280 --> 00:11:53.440 One way around and for the commissioners benefit, state law says that promotional exams can 00:11:53.440 --> 00:12:00.520 only be based on a written test. It can't include any interview component. That is something 00:12:00.520 --> 00:12:05.800 that the city and the police and fire associations can try to negotiate a change to through the 00:12:05.800 --> 00:12:12.640 meet and confer process. But it is established in state law. It's based solely your placement 00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:19.700 on the list and the test itself is based solely on a written examination and you have to identify 00:12:19.700 --> 00:12:24.840 the source materials that are going to be used in that test at least 90 days in advance. 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:30.200 So the departments are kind of limited as to what the test can do unless it's a negotiated 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:39.440 change through the meet and confer process. Go ahead. I would just like to add also we 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:45.960 have negotiated with the fire association to add some minimum requirements for promotion. 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:52.000 So in the meet and confer Article 5 motions for promotion of the ranks of captain and battalion 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.800 chief, you have to have the normal two years in rank, which is what 1.3 states, but you 00:12:56.800 --> 00:13:03.320 also have to have the Texas Commission on Fire Protection Fire Officer 2 certification, which 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:09.640 that's an advanced certification. You have to go through test and be awarded that. In 00:13:09.640 --> 00:13:14.600 the beginning in 2021 for meet and confer, we have an internal company officer task clear 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:18.520 that they have to go through certain skills and get checked off. So we were able to negotiate 00:13:18.520 --> 00:13:24.720 outside 1.3 to add additional requirements to the officer in this department as well. 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:28.920 Are those requirements for them to be eligible to take the test or are those points tacked 00:13:28.920 --> 00:13:38.680 on after they take the test eligible to even sit for the exam? I think when I was talking 00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:46.000 to Michael and Stephanie, the way that the way that I think Mr. Konig put it, he said 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:52.480 everybody has to everybody has different experiences, right? So when we asked them to talk between 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:59.320 application and theory, I guess, what these authors are writing, they can't all take from 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:03.400 the same experience. So they have to be able to take the information from the same source, 00:14:03.400 --> 00:14:09.600 which is the source material you guys are saying. I just I believe I'm sure that, you 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.240 know, in your department, you guys talk and it's understood that all of these questions 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:17.720 are only going to come from the source material. I wonder if if somewhere it's written down 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:22.920 that says questions on this examination are only coming from source material, they're 00:14:22.920 --> 00:14:28.800 not coming from practical application, or anyone's experience. Does that make sense? 00:14:28.800 --> 00:14:31.840 So that we can kind of get away from that. So when they're coming in, they're saying, 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:38.320 okay, I'm not I'm putting away my what I actually do. I'm, you know, I'm focusing only on what 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:45.480 I would be able to do in the perfect scenario. Theory. Yeah. Is that is that an understood 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:49.280 thing with all the officers? Or is that written somewhere? I know that you're I know that 00:14:49.280 --> 00:14:53.300 Mr. Kroneck said, you have to give them source material 90 days before, so they know they 00:14:53.300 --> 00:14:57.320 have to study these 90. But did they understand that it's only information coming from these 00:14:57.320 --> 00:15:03.640 books, and nothing else? It is to me, it is communicated, and then obviously, and we have 00:15:03.640 --> 00:15:09.440 limited to the court is source material, we've tried everything we can to reinforce that 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:13.600 interior that we have commission approved, that is your source material, that is where 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:19.360 the test bank is coming from. So it's understanding. But then again, sometimes you still have appellants 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:24.160 come in, and they want to bring in the personal experiences from outside that source material, 00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:30.760 even outside book that was for that one specific test question. Because it's been this for 00:15:30.760 --> 00:15:35.440 27 years, it's hard to get a good list of source material that don't conflict on each 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:40.560 other. Every author has their own opinion. You can see you can West Coast firefighting 00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:45.440 versus East Coast, it's totally different on the type of structure. We're kind of central. 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:50.440 So unless you just pick authors from the Texas area, you're gonna have conflict information 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:58.560 on how tasks that are not applied in Texas, in North Texas, specifically as well. Okay, 00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:05.000 but I'm your you. What was the one you said Article Three, the income for it says limited 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:13.520 to only source material questions are only limited. Yeah, article five. And then section 00:16:13.520 --> 00:16:22.040 seven scope of the fields. He'll be limited to quoted source material attributable to 00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:27.880 the reference examination question. I'm sorry, you're cutting out Can you read it one more 00:16:27.880 --> 00:16:35.320 time? I have my microphones not the best appeals to the commission under section 143.034. The 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:40.560 text of the code shall be limited to the quoted source material, attributable to the reference 00:16:40.560 --> 00:16:44.840 examination question. Okay, but that's talking about appeals. Is there anything that says 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:50.080 test questions will come only from the source materials? That's, that's, that's, that's 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:54.840 again, that's the reason why the source materials are approved by you as a commissioner. Okay, 00:16:54.840 --> 00:17:00.600 but you're saying it's a given, I'm asking if it's written anywhere. I don't, I can't 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:07.760 say this written, written anywhere. We don't have a policy of examination that also 143. 00:17:07.760 --> 00:17:12.560 I think that's the part that puts us in a situation because if it's not written, I understand 00:17:12.560 --> 00:17:16.560 that in department, it's, it's a given, everyone should know, right, it's, it's passed on, 00:17:16.560 --> 00:17:21.280 that's the way it's always been. But when it's not written, and they're bringing in, 00:17:21.280 --> 00:17:24.760 they're making a solid argument, I think that's the part that's kind of, at least for me, 00:17:24.760 --> 00:17:30.040 that's the part that kind of puts me in a situation because it's not written. What is 00:17:30.040 --> 00:17:36.640 written is when the source materials are posted, it says the examination questions will be 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:43.960 taken from these, these materials. But I don't think there's anything that says, and we won't 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:48.920 be testing on any of your actual experience. I don't think it says that last part, but 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:53.720 it does say, and I don't have one in front of me. This is what there's this, these are 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:59.800 the books that the questions are going to be taken from. So they know that, but yeah, 00:17:59.800 --> 00:18:05.080 there's no express saying and we won't test you on practical applications. I don't think 00:18:05.080 --> 00:18:08.960 it says that, but I think it's, I think it's understood because it's the way it's been 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:18.480 done for years and years. Well, but recently, I've, I've seen a little bit more of taking 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:23.160 what you were just saying, Michael, instead of, I mean, that sort of says that the tests 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:31.520 are coming from all of the books that we approve, but they've, it is now gone to, well, no, 00:18:31.520 --> 00:18:37.200 it's that book and that page. And if it's in another book or if there's conflicting 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:43.560 information in another book that's still on the approved list, that's not a valid appeal 00:18:43.560 --> 00:18:48.600 because that was the court of material. I mean, so now we're asking them not only to 00:18:48.600 --> 00:18:56.820 memorize the material of what looks like 10,000 pages worth of stuff. Now they've got to memorize 00:18:56.820 --> 00:19:02.640 which page it's on because they got to make sure that they get the right page. And if 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.680 they remember that something's in another book that's approved, then I think that, then 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:12.400 the idea that it's, if that, then that's a valid appeal in my, in my estimation. 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:20.080 I want to show y'all the actual test real quick to show you what it says to the test 00:19:20.080 --> 00:19:33.840 taker. Sure. You're going to share your screen? Yes, sir. Okay. Can y'all see that? The test. 00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:40.680 So right there at the top, it says the following questions are coming from this book and then 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:46.360 they have questions one, two, three, four, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't give you an exact 00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:52.920 page number on these questions. It just says these questions are referencing this book. 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:57.800 And then, you know, when they get down and they're done with that book, it says you're 00:19:57.800 --> 00:20:04.780 going to, these following questions are going to reference this book. And it goes on. This, 00:20:04.780 --> 00:20:14.620 this is the cover page. Wait one second. I'm sorry. I can share this other one. This is 00:20:14.620 --> 00:20:20.000 the cover page here on the very front of the test, of the exam. And this is what it says 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:25.760 in the instructions. There is one and only one best answer to each question. Mark the 00:20:25.760 --> 00:20:30.160 best answer for the separate, on that separate answer sheet. No credit will be given for 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:38.760 anything written in this textbook. So the best answer and the reference book, and it 00:20:38.760 --> 00:20:43.920 doesn't say the page. So if they pull, if they pull an appeal from a different page 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:52.920 in that same book, then that's a valid appeal. Well, if their point is strong enough. But, 00:20:52.920 --> 00:21:00.440 so that's, that's exactly what they see when they come in to take their test. Well, how 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:07.960 do we get around this conflicting information between books other than having to memorize 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:13.240 by book? I mean, if there are, if there is conflicting information, that's a, that's 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:20.640 a problem, I think. Well, just from my perspective as the training officer and really coming 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:26.260 up through the process, I should know when a book conflicts with another book. I should 00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:32.840 know this author's take on this kind of predicament and then this author's take on predicament. 00:21:32.840 --> 00:21:38.040 Because any situation that we encounter in the field or whatever, it's, you know, there's 00:21:38.040 --> 00:21:43.680 not going to be just one specific answer. There's going to be differences of opinions 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:49.120 every time. So basically you're learning, hey, there's an option A and this author makes 00:21:49.120 --> 00:21:54.160 his points and there's an option B and this author makes his points. I know I have both 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:59.040 of those. I have that information in my head now and based off of the situation, I can 00:21:59.040 --> 00:22:05.240 make a decision that fits best fits that situation. But I think all of us coming up through the 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:12.480 ranks when we've studied to the extent that we study, I could tell you this book A says 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:18.740 this about this topic and book B says this about this topic and they are not the same. 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:23.240 People who don't study that much, they're the ones that come into the appeal and start 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:31.080 pulling things out of different books. And once and I'm in my opinion, and Chief might 00:22:31.080 --> 00:22:37.720 hate me for saying this, once a commissioner decides to or the commission says, okay, we're 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:43.680 going to accept book B, then the guy who did all that extra work to know the difference 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:49.640 and answer the question properly gets punished for the guy who just spent two hours reading 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:59.920 through all his books after the test. If that makes sense. 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:06.040 It makes sense. I think if that explanation was given, you 00:23:06.040 --> 00:23:10.240 know, there's been some times where the explanation from the department just says, that's what's 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:15.960 written in the book. You know, if the explanation like if you came out and said, I understand 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:20.480 what he would have gotten confused, but because the this question went with this book, this 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:24.200 is the book he should have gotten it from, you know what I mean? And you can say because 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:28.360 all these obviously, you know, so you would say, there are different, you know, opinions 00:23:28.360 --> 00:23:32.720 or whatnot. But we asked them to reference this book, then that doesn't give us much 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:37.920 wiggle room as a commission to entertain, you know, to be persuaded or manipulated. 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:42.600 But, but whenever it just says on the on the, you know, it's just like what I told the officers 00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:46.560 whenever they come in the appeal, I said, if you put this little effort, and all you're 00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:51.320 telling me is, you should accept C2, that doesn't give me much, you know, but it's the 00:23:51.320 --> 00:23:55.440 same with the department just says, that's the that's what's verbatim in the book, you 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:59.600 know. And I think that's the part because we're we're trying to be fair, but we're really 00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:03.360 at y'all's mercy, because you guys are the ones that know the information. We're just 00:24:03.360 --> 00:24:10.960 trying to, to think and to, and to be as fair as possible and to not only compensate good 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:15.840 memorization, but to also, you know, acknowledge these people that are thinking and looking 00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:19.560 at all these different parts. And you know what I mean? So even if it was like even if 00:24:19.560 --> 00:24:23.920 they're taking two hours to try to make a strong appeal, they're doing it there, you 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:28.520 made them think you made them, you know, take more time and look at the material and, and 00:24:28.520 --> 00:24:34.080 look at different scenarios in different ways. And I have one more thing that I'll I'll wait 00:24:34.080 --> 00:24:35.080 until later. 00:24:35.080 --> 00:24:42.880 Let me just let me go right into that pretty quickly. But I'll certainly agree with that. 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:51.680 And I've talked with, well, Chief Skipper, I know we talked about the fact that I would 00:24:51.680 --> 00:25:03.800 like to know why an appeal is not valid, rather than it's the other one is written in the 00:25:03.800 --> 00:25:09.920 book. Why is that appeal wrong? A little more information about that part of the of the 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:18.680 appeal process will help us as being the outsiders, the overseers, but the outsiders in that sense. 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:25.320 So why is it why is something wrong when something else, when it appears to be right? So. 00:25:25.320 --> 00:25:31.160 So can I ask you this, if I were to say, he has a valid point, if I use the information 00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:36.120 from this book that this question didn't reference, but this book question was referenced out 00:25:36.120 --> 00:25:41.800 of the with the question was referenced out of this book. So, you know, both situations, 00:25:41.800 --> 00:25:44.960 you would have to take that into account. But the question references this book, and 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:50.480 that's how this book answered it. Would that be a more appropriate response from FIRE? 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:57.240 Because I can concede that, like I said, there's two there's situations and there's a maybe 00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:03.240 two correct answers, but the most or best answer would be the one that was referenced 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:10.440 that the question referenced that book me that would make a huge difference because 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:13.840 you're acknowledging their point, but you're but you're still they still have to be able 00:26:13.840 --> 00:26:18.600 to follow directions. And if the right direction was to reference this particular source material, 00:26:18.600 --> 00:26:21.680 then that's where they should have gotten it. And like you said, they should know the 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.280 difference, right? If they get confused, well, then that's then they got the question wrong, 00:26:25.280 --> 00:26:28.760 you know, but if but if you can say that, if you said something like that, according 00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:32.240 to this, that would have been correct, but they failed to notice this one detail that 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:36.240 they were supposed to get the sort the information from this book. And that's why the appeal 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:40.640 is not solid. And that would be huge. And I think that that's an acknowledgement for 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:46.520 them too, because you're you're saying you are correct. You know, it's like, yeah, I 00:26:46.520 --> 00:26:52.240 mean, that would make a huge difference for me. I also like I'm teetering a line or at 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:58.280 least I felt like I was this year. Y'all, the commissioners know that three battalion 00:26:58.280 --> 00:27:04.440 chiefs look at these questions to determine the department response. And I'm, I'm the 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:09.080 one voice that gets to present the department response. If I go against what three but like 00:27:09.080 --> 00:27:15.360 if I say, hey, I said something like that, and I sway you to make a choice that was against 00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:24.600 the department response, then that puts me in a bad position, not only with the appellants, 00:27:24.600 --> 00:27:30.800 but with the department response. Does that make sense? What I'm saying? So I'm trying 00:27:30.800 --> 00:27:36.760 to I'm trying to sway your decision making as little as possible, and just be as black 00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:43.320 and white as I possibly can. Why would why would that why would our decision go against 00:27:43.320 --> 00:27:47.480 what your three battalion chiefs would say because they're using the same source material 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:53.840 that you're quoting, isn't it? Well, to your point, y'all had seven questions on the captain's 00:27:53.840 --> 00:28:00.060 exam that y'all ruled. And I think three or four of them were against the department recommendation. 00:28:00.060 --> 00:28:04.240 So if I say something than what the department different than what the department recommendation 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:12.920 is, then I have personally influenced your decision against or for the department recommendation, 00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:17.960 but your department recommendation is already written. But that's what I'm saying. So if 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:23.300 I say something more than that, when you ask me, you want to you want to know chief skippers 00:28:23.300 --> 00:28:28.560 personal opinion about the topic, if I say something more than that, then I've influenced 00:28:28.560 --> 00:28:35.640 you beyond what the department has recommended. And then go against what the department if 00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:41.540 you if you rule against the department recommendation, based off of something I've said, now I'm 00:28:41.540 --> 00:28:51.760 I'm in a bad position. I think I was gonna say chief skipper, the I'm on I'm on a zoom 00:28:51.760 --> 00:28:59.760 call. Okay, thank you. The you just told me something I haven't heard in three years. 00:28:59.760 --> 00:29:07.440 I thought the department position was you. Three other people involved. So to me, that's 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:12.840 that's news. And that's good. I appreciate that there is more oversight than one voice, 00:29:12.840 --> 00:29:18.520 not that we discount your voice. But you know, you got other people looking at it. And so 00:29:18.520 --> 00:29:23.920 when that when you say the department's position is this, that gives me a new perspective. 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:30.040 You know, however, I think one of the issues that we were dealing with was on one page, 00:29:30.040 --> 00:29:34.760 it may say one thing, we're staying in the same book, but on another page, that's also 00:29:34.760 --> 00:29:38.760 an equally correct answer. You know, I think that's what we get into the issue. But when 00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:43.800 you're talking about going from one book to another book, to me, I think you've clarified 00:29:43.800 --> 00:29:50.760 that issue, as long as that presentation is given to all of the test takers, so that they 00:29:50.760 --> 00:29:56.960 know both before the exam, and after the exam, that they're supposed to answer based on that 00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:06.320 book, and not in a kind of a comprehensive way. I would say con if the if we expand the 00:30:06.320 --> 00:30:16.880 department response to acknowledge and explain why an appeal isn't the best answer, then 00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:22.720 that takes you off the hook. But that means that that you guys have to work maybe work 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:29.120 a little bit harder than just simply it's a direct quote from the book. You might have 00:30:29.120 --> 00:30:36.760 to work a little harder. But I think that would help us with understanding the situation 00:30:36.760 --> 00:30:44.800 going in and help us to understand better how we need to make our decisions. So I think 00:30:44.800 --> 00:30:52.280 more information from your three battalion chiefs will help us not put you on the spot. 00:30:52.280 --> 00:30:57.720 They can help you but they've got to do something more than just well, that's what's quoted 00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:05.040 in the book. I was gonna say the same thing if they if they if the department response, 00:31:05.040 --> 00:31:08.520 you know, has already been looked at by three individuals that three collectively with no 00:31:08.520 --> 00:31:12.920 more than you know, one person, and the argument should already be made there, you wouldn't 00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:17.960 have to change your stance after that department response has already been written and presented. 00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:28.120 But we do kind of put them on the spot in one set when an appeal does come up. I mean, 00:31:28.120 --> 00:31:34.400 I, and over the years, that's happened. What happens in reality kinds of things. But again, 00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:44.520 I think if the if the response is more directed toward the appeal itself, and why that appeal 00:31:44.520 --> 00:31:52.280 is not a valid appeal, then I think we have even less reason to put the the the sacrificial 00:31:52.280 --> 00:32:01.120 lamb on the line there when when the time comes. So I, I would agree, like, I absolutely 00:32:01.120 --> 00:32:10.000 agree, we need to do more vetting of questions. And then a little bit better explanation on 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:17.400 the the appeal, our responses to the appeals. I do get the feeling sometimes. And this is 00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:24.760 just a personal opinion that the default mode is almost to give the appeal as opposed to 00:32:24.760 --> 00:32:32.840 stand with the departmental response. And I don't know that that's that's just that's 00:32:32.840 --> 00:32:38.760 a subjective feeling on my part, as opposed to anything I could say this right here, I 00:32:38.760 --> 00:32:42.400 don't have a good example of that. So 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:58.840 eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 of the probably 25 appeals were sustained 00:32:58.840 --> 00:32:59.840 the key. 00:32:59.840 --> 00:33:07.280 Okay, yeah, here's here was the thing I was thinking earlier, like the driver's exam. 00:33:07.280 --> 00:33:12.000 The driver's exam is very much a cognitive fact based like, hey, you're going to raise 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:16.960 a ladder, it's going to be this it's information that you can remember, a captain or battalion 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:24.000 chief exam, we get much more into leadership philosophy. And everyone has an opinion about 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:27.880 leadership philosophy. So when we're talking about different books or different opinions 00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:34.280 about a certain subject, that's where we get a little because I've had in the past, you 00:33:34.280 --> 00:33:39.280 know, when Commissioner Abbott was on he, he straight up said to me, and one of my appeals, 00:33:39.280 --> 00:33:45.720 he didn't agree with what the book said. And I was like, I can't, I can't take a test based 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:51.520 off a commissioners opinion of the subject material, I can only take a test off of the 00:33:51.520 --> 00:33:52.520 subject material. 00:33:52.520 --> 00:33:54.320 I'll tell you, 00:33:54.320 --> 00:34:05.280 Colin, that when I first came on, and my understanding, I was, I was because I'm, I'm resistant and 00:34:05.280 --> 00:34:08.880 I'm still I understand what Michael saying that and you know, 143, it says that it has 00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:14.400 to be a written examination. I understand all of that. I hope that later, which is going 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:18.280 to now be another three years, whenever you guys do the meet and confer again and negotiations 00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:22.360 that, you know, I know police does the lieutenant and they have an interview process in there, 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:27.980 but maybe y'all could even introduce scenario questions, or, you know, some kind of comprehensive 00:34:27.980 --> 00:34:33.640 essay or something that allows, you know, your people's critical thinking to shine instead 00:34:33.640 --> 00:34:38.800 of these memorization, right. But that's beside the point. But at the beginning, I was resistant 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:44.120 to the memorization. So if someone came in and they showed me a strong argument, and 00:34:44.120 --> 00:34:48.040 they did their work and they provided critical thinking and they provided information from 00:34:48.040 --> 00:34:53.080 different parts of the text, or even another text, I was persuaded to advocate for the 00:34:53.080 --> 00:34:58.760 appellate. Now that you're telling me, you know, and all of this has been kind of clear 00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:04.880 that you're saying it is on top of the question, take it from this source material. And then 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:08.720 now I'm like, okay, I'm not going to look at other books. I'm not looking at your application. 00:35:08.720 --> 00:35:13.920 I recognize what you're saying, but you can't use that, right? You can only use this book. 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:18.240 But now, and if it's in the book, but on page one, it says, I don't know, there was a question 00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:22.680 last time about wording. And I remember, I even looked up the definitions of the words, 00:35:22.680 --> 00:35:27.560 something about leadership. And then on page 30, it said something different. You know, 00:35:27.560 --> 00:35:31.680 then that to me is still a strong appeal, because it's in the same source material, 00:35:31.680 --> 00:35:35.800 it's in the same, you know what I mean? But for all others, I'm going to sustain the key 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:40.800 as long as the department's giving me enough information to say, you know, to say this 00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:45.040 is from this book, this is what this is saying, he's talking about that book that has nothing 00:35:45.040 --> 00:35:50.960 to do with this question right now. And I think Steve Hedges, you said it's a snapshot, 00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:56.240 which I think that's important, too. I'm not asking you of what you would do nine times 00:35:56.240 --> 00:36:03.320 out of 10. It's a snapshot question of right now, this book, and this paragraph or whatever, 00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:08.200 you know what I mean? And so that's more clear for me now. Now I can stand more with what 00:36:08.200 --> 00:36:11.920 the department is saying and still feel that I'm being fair because they've already been 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:17.680 told it's this book, you know, it's not anything else. It's this book. It's not, you know, 00:36:17.680 --> 00:36:26.040 your experience. Does that make sense? But I mean, I do wish that that we would allow 00:36:26.040 --> 00:36:29.880 them to do, you know, these multiple choice. I know that's the easiest grade. I know it's 00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:36.880 the fastest. But we would allow maybe these three Italian chiefs can read two, two essays, 00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:40.960 you know, of what would happen or something that would give them an opportunity to take 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:46.280 all the experience and all the years that they had and to put it on paper. 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:50.720 It's kind of my understanding that the way civil service is written and the fact that 00:36:50.720 --> 00:36:57.400 it is just a test is to take the subjective part of it, the good old boy system that the 00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:03.720 past that Fire to Heart ran off to make it so objective that I couldn't go in there. 00:37:03.720 --> 00:37:09.600 Like to your example, if I create an essay for people to answer and I was grading it, 00:37:09.600 --> 00:37:15.560 I might grade my buddy really high because I look at it with a certain bias as opposed 00:37:15.560 --> 00:37:20.320 to the guy I don't like. He might actually have better answers, but I'm already going 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:24.040 into that with a certain bias and I grade him really low. 00:37:24.040 --> 00:37:28.040 Yeah, I mean, there's ways to go around that. You guys can set up rubrics. You know, you 00:37:28.040 --> 00:37:33.200 can have rubrics that are that are subjective and they can help. I mean, I know that I got 00:37:33.200 --> 00:37:39.800 an MPA at UNT and we had we sat in that comprehensive exam for eight hours and all essays, you know, 00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:44.400 I mean, there are ways to get around that. I completely agree. I think that that's good 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:49.600 in the right steps, but I think I think also it just makes it too black and white and you're 00:37:49.600 --> 00:37:57.840 rewarding people who are good test takers, who are who can memorize, but they're not. 00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:02.400 But I'm not but like, you know, to Commissioner Ramsey's point at the beginning, not just 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:07.080 with fire, but even with police. I'm worried with the people on the street. I'm worried 00:38:07.080 --> 00:38:10.680 how how we're going to interact, the decision you're going to make on the spot, you know 00:38:10.680 --> 00:38:14.760 what I mean? For the protection of the rest of the citizens and for their own protection. 00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:22.320 So I think that we absolutely should move to something like that personally, but that's 00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:26.560 going to take contract negotiations and all this stuff that Chief Hedges was talking about 00:38:26.560 --> 00:38:36.440 earlier with the system we have now. I just that I believe that we can vet questions better. 00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:42.720 We can provide better input as far as why we sustain the key or accept an appeal. And 00:38:42.720 --> 00:38:50.080 to me, the stronger appellant is the one that says question the answer a was wrong. My answer 00:38:50.080 --> 00:38:57.360 b was better because I picked the best answer that we're saying. This is the best answer. 00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:02.100 Not that both answers are correct, because both answers might be correct to an extent, 00:39:02.100 --> 00:39:07.400 but there's one that's better. You know, it's just like being a paramedic. If you're having 00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:12.400 a heart attack, there are 100 different things I could do that will probably be correct. 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:16.200 But eventually there's a best thing that I could do that's going to be more helpful to 00:39:16.200 --> 00:39:23.360 you than the other thing I could have done. In your fire response to the appeal is where 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:34.760 we need to know what that best, why the second answer isn't as good as the best answer. Because 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:43.700 that very likely is what we don't know. I remember the questions of medications. I had 00:39:43.700 --> 00:39:51.200 no idea when we tested the EMTs. I had no idea what the medications were to know whether 00:39:51.200 --> 00:40:00.920 one was better than the other. That's where your expertise, your and the other bat chiefs 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:08.160 need to help us be able to make the right decision that also is right for the firemen 00:40:08.160 --> 00:40:14.640 that are doing the appeals, the folks that are doing the appeals. Kenneth, I would suggest 00:40:14.640 --> 00:40:21.360 that you might think about especially at the bat chief level, putting some kind of an interview 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:28.880 process similar to what police does, because there are so much, all of the leadership stuff 00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:36.160 is really important, but really subjective, much more so than the driver test. It's not 00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:41.000 very subjective, but when you get the leadership books, you might think very seriously about 00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:48.840 throwing that out on the table and seeing where it goes in the next meet and confer 00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:54.200 agreement. This is kind of a step process. What we negotiated with fire sociologists 00:40:54.200 --> 00:40:59.600 in the last year, 2019, was one more step towards some type of a subjective assessment. 00:40:59.600 --> 00:41:03.800 They have assessment centers out there in the fire industry where, yes, you have to 00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:10.520 write essays, interviews on leadership traits, scenario-based questions as well. I've sat 00:41:10.520 --> 00:41:14.160 through a few with other cities and I don't fully agree. I think there's definitely hybrid 00:41:14.160 --> 00:41:22.280 systems we can implement, but that's outside 143. So we're covered by 143. We can go outside 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:27.720 that, so it's going to be obviously a negotiation with our fire sociologists. But we definitely 00:41:27.720 --> 00:41:34.840 start at the higher level, with the battalions and captains. That's where more of the leadership 00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:45.560 world comes into play. That's what meet and confer was all about, or is all about, is 00:41:45.560 --> 00:41:59.080 supplementing the 143 rigidness. Can I say that? I guess I just did. 00:41:59.080 --> 00:42:07.280 I would also say, Colin, I know in the past, I think the first few meetings that I attended, 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:14.600 sometimes it was brought up that out of the 45 test takers, 40 of them got the question 00:42:14.600 --> 00:42:20.040 correct. To me, that made a strong point. I can't remember what other meeting I asked 00:42:20.040 --> 00:42:24.000 about that and someone said, "Oh, we're not looking at that." But I think for me, especially 00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:28.720 in a department response, if you guys use that as a justification for saying this isn't 00:42:28.720 --> 00:42:35.160 a fluke, this isn't a bad question, I mean, 95% of the test takers knew what we were talking 00:42:35.160 --> 00:42:40.680 about, then to me that would be a stronger justification to hold the key. 00:42:40.680 --> 00:42:49.520 I agree. It speaks to the validity of the question, right? If that could be included, 00:42:49.520 --> 00:42:53.400 that would be in the department response, that would be great. 00:42:53.400 --> 00:43:00.160 Colin, do you guys go back and look at reliability and validity? 00:43:00.160 --> 00:43:05.120 I don't say that we do because we hired, this is all outsourced. We hire a professional 00:43:05.120 --> 00:43:09.680 company to write all the tests and stuff. We just give them the books. 00:43:09.680 --> 00:43:13.840 So they don't capture the information, the results, and try to... 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:20.840 No, I'd have to go physically do it. I have done it in my training, but it's been a long 00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:21.840 time. 00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:30.380 You need a book, right? On page 20. No, no, never mind. 00:43:30.380 --> 00:43:37.240 I think that would help at least because if one person's appealing a question and everyone 00:43:37.240 --> 00:43:44.880 else got it right, it's like man, it speaks to something. I mean, you looked at it a different 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:50.880 way than everybody else, but you looked at it wrong. 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:59.520 Is there anything else? Lauren, did we get to your second point? We were in the middle 00:43:59.520 --> 00:44:03.360 of one. Did we get to your second? You said you had two issues. 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:07.520 Yeah, no, it was that. It was the suggestion of the next time the meet and confer come 00:44:07.520 --> 00:44:14.680 around that supplemental factors are taken into consideration on just a written test. 00:44:14.680 --> 00:44:20.760 I think that that's important. They already talked about it a little bit. 00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:26.920 Okay. Well, I just want to make sure because I knew you had that second issue, so I wanted 00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:37.040 to make sure you got that. Anything else? Hearing none, seeing none, there's nothing 00:44:37.040 --> 00:44:42.640 else. Next meeting, Crystal, do we need to... 00:44:42.640 --> 00:44:46.240 If we would like to meet in August, we do need to set a meeting date today because I 00:44:46.240 --> 00:44:51.240 have to get that to the city secretary's office. We're very limited on dates in August. We're 00:44:51.240 --> 00:44:56.960 down to either August 17th, 26th, or 27th. Those are the only three dates that the room 00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:03.920 is that it's available. What do we have coming forward? 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:12.120 What days of the week are those, Crystal? It looks like, I think, August 17th is a Monday 00:45:12.120 --> 00:45:20.200 and then the 26th is a Wednesday. The 27th is Thursday. I don't know of anything coming 00:45:20.200 --> 00:45:25.800 forward right now. We've already done the POAs for PD and Fire. There are no more appeals 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:35.600 right now. PD might have... I don't know. I don't know of anything that's pressing that 00:45:35.600 --> 00:45:41.200 anybody has right now. Should we maybe go ahead and schedule the 00:45:41.200 --> 00:45:49.840 room and then we can always cancel it? You can always sell it to someone else for a fee? 00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:53.280 We could, but I won't charge them. I'm not going to say that. 00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:57.680 I would prefer not to do a Monday. Other than that, I'm okay. 00:45:57.680 --> 00:46:04.640 Okay. That leaves August 26th and 27th. I am going back to school, I think. 00:46:04.640 --> 00:46:11.040 Yeah, me too. I think. So later afternoons would be better 00:46:11.040 --> 00:46:22.960 for me. Okay. Thursdays... Well, I can do it after 10, after 10 on Wednesdays. My class 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:31.920 is from 9 to 10. So I can do it Wednesday, mid-morning, or we can do it after school. 00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:40.080 School will be back. Maybe, depending on Friday, maybe school will be back in... Well, probably 00:46:40.080 --> 00:46:47.440 by then. I think the new start date that they're tossing around is the 26th. So that'd be the 00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:55.520 second day of school. Maybe mid to late afternoon, 3.30, 4 o'clock. 00:46:55.520 --> 00:47:00.480 I'm good with either of those. I have enough advance notice, but Mondays are usually hard 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:03.840 on me, so... Okay. Williams, 3.30? 00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:10.640 Yeah. 3.30 is fine. 3.30 or 4 is fine. All right. You can do 3.30 on that Wednesday, 00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:14.640 the 26th or 7th, but 6th. The Wednesday is the 26th, yes. 00:47:14.640 --> 00:47:18.800 Okay. That's first day of school. Is that okay, Lillian? 00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:24.800 Yeah. I was saying if that roused a reaction, so... 00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:27.360 No, I'm good. Okay. 00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:32.480 Okay. So we will tentatively schedule that. And we can always... If we don't have anything, 00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:35.520 there's no reason to meet other than just to see each other, so... 00:47:35.520 --> 00:47:36.880 Right. Okay. 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:43.680 Hey, I just wanted to tell Colin and kind of thank you for the information, because to me, 00:47:43.680 --> 00:47:49.280 having that background information is really helpful. I came into this position as a volunteer, 00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:54.480 and I want to do right not only by the department, but by the officers as well. So anytime that you 00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:58.720 guys explain it, I know to you it's probably redundant, repetitive, because you live it every 00:47:58.720 --> 00:48:02.640 day. It's already... You already know it. But for me, any kind of background information you 00:48:02.640 --> 00:48:08.560 can give me, then that just helps me feel more confident and feel good about the time that we 00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:14.320 spend volunteering here. I think that last time I might've gotten a little bit frustrated because 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:19.040 I was like, "Well, then what's the point? If it just says it's in the book, then what's the point? 00:48:19.040 --> 00:48:26.320 Why am I spending hours on this?" And so I think that that's helpful. So I appreciate y'all's time. 00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:30.800 And Michael, you too, just for all the explanation and looking at things from a different perspective. 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:35.520 So thank you to all of y'all. Thanks, Mark. Mark, you too, and Crystal, you too. 00:48:35.520 --> 00:48:41.440 I would like to say thank you for your service on this committee. I mean, I know 00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:45.120 your scope seems limited, but it's a bigger role than what you actually imagine. 00:48:45.120 --> 00:48:50.080 There are certain people that they spend three, four, five months studying for one exam here in 00:48:50.080 --> 00:48:54.560 New York as well. So a lot of times, but then just I can speak in personal experiences with people 00:48:54.560 --> 00:48:59.680 that put in time, they're so invested in the pills and it can go so many different variations. So as 00:48:59.680 --> 00:49:05.040 we go through this, we're trying to narrow the ability of people to, like I said, not study and 00:49:05.040 --> 00:49:11.040 then swing and appeal a certain way as well. And it is definitely a work in progress. Thank you. 00:49:11.040 --> 00:49:18.400 I would like to keep working at it. I'm sorry, John. Go ahead, John. 00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:26.000 I'd certainly like to say cool bye, y'all. Thank you. I see Mark is over there chilling, 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:34.000 asking for a change of positions after the first day. All right. If there's nothing else but 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:40.160 formality for the good of the order, I would entertain a motion that we adjourn at 1126. 00:49:41.120 --> 00:49:51.600 So moved. Seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed. All right. Thank you all. Stay safe. Stay cool.