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 All right. I'd like to call the July 9th meeting of the Civil Service Commission to order at

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 1037. First order of business is introduction of guests. Basically, everyone's a part of

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 the agenda. So, does anyone feel like they're a real guest? Seeing none.

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 We actually introduced Mark Fliniken. He is on your video. He will be the part of our

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 Community Services Officer. So, he is actually replacing Jason Pettyman.

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 Okay. Welcome, Mark. Glad to have you. I guess we'll be seeing some of you.

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 Okay. Next order of business, public comments. I don't know of any. I've gotten no notification

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 of any. Next order of business is approval of the minutes of the June 10th and June 15th

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 meetings. We got those in our packet. Commissioner Roddo, did you see any?

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 No. I can move that we approve the minutes. Okay. I'll second. John can jump in then.

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 So, all in favor, say aye. Aye.

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 Opposed? All right. Minutes for both of the meetings are approved. Next order of business

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 is the Fire Recruit POA. So, I will go to who's going to do it. Colin, are you doing

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 it or? I'll take care of it.

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 Fire's doing it. Who's doing it?

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 I'll take care of it, Chair. So, since Captain Fliniken's new, I'm going to kind of walk

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 through the process. So, this is what you have before you on the documentation is the

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 notice of some sort of examination scheduled for Saturday, January 9, 2021. This is the

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 annual entrance exam that's administered by the fire department. Everything is pretty

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 standard, with the exception if you go down and look under training and experience. Because

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 in the past, as you know, we have hired fully certified individuals. So, you had to possess

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 your fire and your paramedic certification to be hired. That didn't decrease our recruitment

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 pool, but it did assist on listing the amount of funds that were required to bring an interloved

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 person in and actually get them implemented in the fire department. So, as we discussed

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 this, we actually kind of thought we'd try to open the phone and try to create a more

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 diverse group of opportunities. So, we are backing off having both certifications and

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 now we're asking that a person only possess one. You either have your PCFP fire certification

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 or you have your paramedic certification. With understanding knowing that now when we

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 bring them in, we very well make sense in school for upwards of six months so we can

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 utilize them. Our recruitment efforts over the past two to three years, even though we

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 increased the pool has dropped dramatically. This last test we had only under 30 people

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 show up to take the test. So, we've had great concerns over that number dwindling. This

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 is actually the market. It's not nothing we're doing wrong. We're seeing other departments

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 open up to where you have to have no certifications. I know they did a survey and I think the city

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 of Irving has it open to no certifications. They only had 100 people show up. All you

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 had to be is age 18 and drugs license. So, the market is very strong if you're a recruit

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 out there. So, we're going to step back this one year to do a test, see if it increases

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 our numbers. Of course, it will incur additional costs to the city, but we feel at this point

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 this is a good call to try to once again open that recruitment fund up and see if we can

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 get more people interested in the city. Questions? So, with this, if the city is paying for part

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 of their certification, is there an amount of time that they have to commit to the city

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 to working for them? Yes, we put a two year stipulation on that. Okay, thank you. Any

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 other questions? I was trying to read through the form here. It's just the standard civil

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 service test. There's not anything additional that they need to study, right? Correct. It's

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 a standard 100 question multiple choice test. Any other questions? I would entertain a motion

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 that we approve the fire recruit POA. I motion that we accept the POA. I'll second. All right.

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 Is there any further discussion? If not, all in favor of approval of the POA say aye. Aye.

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 Opposed? Unanimous. Next. The next item is kind of a discussion of the whole testing

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 procedure and the appeals. So, Michael, do you want to start us off or do you mean with

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 your insights or Stephanie or? I think it's really, I know last time we had a discussion

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 about it and we just put this as a placeholder that if there was any further discussion that

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 the commissioners felt they needed to have. So I really kind of defer to you folks if

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 you think you need to have any other questions or want to discuss it further. Well, firstly,

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 ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to say that I apologize for being late. I've not had internet

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 or email since Monday at 10 o'clock. So we've been flying in the dark. I have not done any

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 work. I'm not taking care of my responsibilities. I was doing tax returns when you called and

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 I was shocked. I just lost. So please forgive me. It wasn't intentional. And thank you Crystal

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 Babcock for making the phone call. I do apologize that I was disoriented, but not out of my

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 own wishes. I wanted to say that when it came to having this discussion, I think kind of

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 some of the conversation we've had in the last few meetings helped me to clarify how

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 I need to approach the exams and my job as the commissioner. And then I thank the Stephanie

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 and Crystal and Michael for having an individual meeting with me to once again clarify some

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 points. And I feel more comfortable in my role. And I feel that I can do a better job

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 of being a commissioner with the task at hand. I realize there's still some room for improvement

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 and we'll look to provide input to you when and where we can.

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 Thank you, John. Yeah. I mean, again, I feel like we each had a meeting with Stephanie

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 and with Michael. If the fire at this particular time, I'm going to pick on fire since they're

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 the ones that are here, but also police will take a little more care in looking at in the

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 questions themselves, so that we don't get conflicting information within approved materials.

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 The problem as I see it is it's pure memorization. And what I would like as a citizen, what I

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 would like to see is or know is that the firemen are going to make the right decisions in the

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 heat of battle, so to speak, as opposed to thinking about, okay, well, I'm paid such

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 and such and such a book that said do this. And I mean, the application of the knowledge

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 is really the important component in my mind, which means concept. So if we're going to

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 go with this idea of it's what's written in the book, then we really have very little

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 to do as a commission, because there's no argument. You're right. It's word for word

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 out of the book. But neither do the appellants have any chance to appeal. And none of us

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 is perfect. And so I think we need to serve that role as a commission. But we got to make

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 sure that we don't have that we have the information and that we don't have conflicting information.

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 So mission, I'm just curious, maybe chief hedges can address this from a practical standpoint

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 is what is done in the field. Very diametrically opposed to what's in these books. I mean,

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 are we having to memorize and study stuff that really isn't the way it's done in the

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 field? Well, you'll never be able to test individuals

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 and apply to build application. I think while we do include our standard operating procedures,

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 procedures are more guidelines. I know last meeting there was discussion about many lots

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 of your fire fighters, more critical thinking skills. I have absolutely 100% faith they're

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 able to do that out on the fire ground and EMS calls. Everybody takes the service test

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 understand it is anomaly. It is memorization over here and not as much can be applied in

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 the field. There are information you can take the path of an aerial ladder above a building.

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 Yes, it's three foot above or six foot above the roof. It's based on the situation. Every

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 situation is different. The book cannot identify what we're going today versus they go in possibly

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 tomorrow as well. So I don't know how best to describe it. It

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 is a very slice of time a picture that taking this test on what they need those information,

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 what they apply in the field is totally different. And they understand that they know that going

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 into it. If you're a 1.3 department, that's just a fact of it. They know 1.3 inside and

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 out. This is well by administration does well. So sometimes not said people put a lot of

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 effort studying sometimes put more effort in the appeals process because they have learned

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 over the history that they can actually make more progress in a short amount of time, but

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 kind of working the appeals process. So everything that our association has done with the city

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 has been trying to limit that. I don't want to use the term manipulation, but it's not.

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 It's just utilizing the appeals process to increase your score on the test versus actually

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 applying the time to memorize. Unfortunately, that's what it is. 1.3 is from my perspective.

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 One way around and for the commissioners benefit, state law says that promotional exams can

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 only be based on a written test. It can't include any interview component. That is something

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 that the city and the police and fire associations can try to negotiate a change to through the

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 meet and confer process. But it is established in state law. It's based solely your placement

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 on the list and the test itself is based solely on a written examination and you have to identify

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 the source materials that are going to be used in that test at least 90 days in advance.

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 So the departments are kind of limited as to what the test can do unless it's a negotiated

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 change through the meet and confer process. Go ahead. I would just like to add also we

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 have negotiated with the fire association to add some minimum requirements for promotion.

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 So in the meet and confer Article 5 motions for promotion of the ranks of captain and battalion

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 chief, you have to have the normal two years in rank, which is what 1.3 states, but you

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 also have to have the Texas Commission on Fire Protection Fire Officer 2 certification, which

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 that's an advanced certification. You have to go through test and be awarded that. In

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 the beginning in 2021 for meet and confer, we have an internal company officer task clear

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 that they have to go through certain skills and get checked off. So we were able to negotiate

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 outside 1.3 to add additional requirements to the officer in this department as well.

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 Are those requirements for them to be eligible to take the test or are those points tacked

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 on after they take the test eligible to even sit for the exam? I think when I was talking

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 to Michael and Stephanie, the way that the way that I think Mr. Konig put it, he said

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 everybody has to everybody has different experiences, right? So when we asked them to talk between

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 application and theory, I guess, what these authors are writing, they can't all take from

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 the same experience. So they have to be able to take the information from the same source,

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 which is the source material you guys are saying. I just I believe I'm sure that, you

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 know, in your department, you guys talk and it's understood that all of these questions

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 are only going to come from the source material. I wonder if if somewhere it's written down

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 that says questions on this examination are only coming from source material, they're

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 not coming from practical application, or anyone's experience. Does that make sense?

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 So that we can kind of get away from that. So when they're coming in, they're saying,

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 okay, I'm not I'm putting away my what I actually do. I'm, you know, I'm focusing only on what

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 I would be able to do in the perfect scenario. Theory. Yeah. Is that is that an understood

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 thing with all the officers? Or is that written somewhere? I know that you're I know that

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 Mr. Kroneck said, you have to give them source material 90 days before, so they know they

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 have to study these 90. But did they understand that it's only information coming from these

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 books, and nothing else? It is to me, it is communicated, and then obviously, and we have

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 limited to the court is source material, we've tried everything we can to reinforce that

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 interior that we have commission approved, that is your source material, that is where

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 the test bank is coming from. So it's understanding. But then again, sometimes you still have appellants

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 come in, and they want to bring in the personal experiences from outside that source material,

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 even outside book that was for that one specific test question. Because it's been this for

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 27 years, it's hard to get a good list of source material that don't conflict on each

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 other. Every author has their own opinion. You can see you can West Coast firefighting

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 versus East Coast, it's totally different on the type of structure. We're kind of central.

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 So unless you just pick authors from the Texas area, you're gonna have conflict information

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 on how tasks that are not applied in Texas, in North Texas, specifically as well. Okay,

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 but I'm your you. What was the one you said Article Three, the income for it says limited

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 to only source material questions are only limited. Yeah, article five. And then section

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 seven scope of the fields. He'll be limited to quoted source material attributable to

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 the reference examination question. I'm sorry, you're cutting out Can you read it one more

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 time? I have my microphones not the best appeals to the commission under section 143.034. The

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 text of the code shall be limited to the quoted source material, attributable to the reference

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 examination question. Okay, but that's talking about appeals. Is there anything that says

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 test questions will come only from the source materials? That's, that's, that's, that's

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 again, that's the reason why the source materials are approved by you as a commissioner. Okay,

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 but you're saying it's a given, I'm asking if it's written anywhere. I don't, I can't

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 say this written, written anywhere. We don't have a policy of examination that also 143.

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 I think that's the part that puts us in a situation because if it's not written, I understand

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 that in department, it's, it's a given, everyone should know, right, it's, it's passed on,

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 that's the way it's always been. But when it's not written, and they're bringing in,

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 they're making a solid argument, I think that's the part that's kind of, at least for me,

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 that's the part that kind of puts me in a situation because it's not written. What is

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 written is when the source materials are posted, it says the examination questions will be

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 taken from these, these materials. But I don't think there's anything that says, and we won't

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 be testing on any of your actual experience. I don't think it says that last part, but

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 it does say, and I don't have one in front of me. This is what there's this, these are

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 the books that the questions are going to be taken from. So they know that, but yeah,

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 there's no express saying and we won't test you on practical applications. I don't think

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 it says that, but I think it's, I think it's understood because it's the way it's been

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 done for years and years. Well, but recently, I've, I've seen a little bit more of taking

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 what you were just saying, Michael, instead of, I mean, that sort of says that the tests

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 are coming from all of the books that we approve, but they've, it is now gone to, well, no,

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 it's that book and that page. And if it's in another book or if there's conflicting

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 information in another book that's still on the approved list, that's not a valid appeal

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 because that was the court of material. I mean, so now we're asking them not only to

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 memorize the material of what looks like 10,000 pages worth of stuff. Now they've got to memorize

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 which page it's on because they got to make sure that they get the right page. And if

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 they remember that something's in another book that's approved, then I think that, then

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 the idea that it's, if that, then that's a valid appeal in my, in my estimation.

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 I want to show y'all the actual test real quick to show you what it says to the test

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 taker. Sure. You're going to share your screen? Yes, sir. Okay. Can y'all see that? The test.

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 So right there at the top, it says the following questions are coming from this book and then

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 they have questions one, two, three, four, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't give you an exact

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 page number on these questions. It just says these questions are referencing this book.

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 And then, you know, when they get down and they're done with that book, it says you're

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 going to, these following questions are going to reference this book. And it goes on. This,

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 this is the cover page. Wait one second. I'm sorry. I can share this other one. This is

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 the cover page here on the very front of the test, of the exam. And this is what it says

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 in the instructions. There is one and only one best answer to each question. Mark the

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 best answer for the separate, on that separate answer sheet. No credit will be given for

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 anything written in this textbook. So the best answer and the reference book, and it

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 doesn't say the page. So if they pull, if they pull an appeal from a different page

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 in that same book, then that's a valid appeal. Well, if their point is strong enough. But,

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 so that's, that's exactly what they see when they come in to take their test. Well, how

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 do we get around this conflicting information between books other than having to memorize

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 by book? I mean, if there are, if there is conflicting information, that's a, that's

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 a problem, I think. Well, just from my perspective as the training officer and really coming

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 up through the process, I should know when a book conflicts with another book. I should

199
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 know this author's take on this kind of predicament and then this author's take on predicament.

200
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 Because any situation that we encounter in the field or whatever, it's, you know, there's

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 not going to be just one specific answer. There's going to be differences of opinions

202
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 every time. So basically you're learning, hey, there's an option A and this author makes

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 his points and there's an option B and this author makes his points. I know I have both

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 of those. I have that information in my head now and based off of the situation, I can

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 make a decision that fits best fits that situation. But I think all of us coming up through the

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 ranks when we've studied to the extent that we study, I could tell you this book A says

207
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 this about this topic and book B says this about this topic and they are not the same.

208
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 People who don't study that much, they're the ones that come into the appeal and start

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 pulling things out of different books. And once and I'm in my opinion, and Chief might

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 hate me for saying this, once a commissioner decides to or the commission says, okay, we're

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 going to accept book B, then the guy who did all that extra work to know the difference

212
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 and answer the question properly gets punished for the guy who just spent two hours reading

213
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 through all his books after the test. If that makes sense.

214
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 It makes sense. I think if that explanation was given, you

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00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,240
 know, there's been some times where the explanation from the department just says, that's what's

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 written in the book. You know, if the explanation like if you came out and said, I understand

217
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 what he would have gotten confused, but because the this question went with this book, this

218
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 is the book he should have gotten it from, you know what I mean? And you can say because

219
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 all these obviously, you know, so you would say, there are different, you know, opinions

220
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 or whatnot. But we asked them to reference this book, then that doesn't give us much

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 wiggle room as a commission to entertain, you know, to be persuaded or manipulated.

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 But, but whenever it just says on the on the, you know, it's just like what I told the officers

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 whenever they come in the appeal, I said, if you put this little effort, and all you're

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 telling me is, you should accept C2, that doesn't give me much, you know, but it's the

225
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 same with the department just says, that's the that's what's verbatim in the book, you

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 know. And I think that's the part because we're we're trying to be fair, but we're really

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 at y'all's mercy, because you guys are the ones that know the information. We're just

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 trying to, to think and to, and to be as fair as possible and to not only compensate good

229
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 memorization, but to also, you know, acknowledge these people that are thinking and looking

230
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 at all these different parts. And you know what I mean? So even if it was like even if

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 they're taking two hours to try to make a strong appeal, they're doing it there, you

232
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 made them think you made them, you know, take more time and look at the material and, and

233
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 look at different scenarios in different ways. And I have one more thing that I'll I'll wait

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 until later.

235
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 Let me just let me go right into that pretty quickly. But I'll certainly agree with that.

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 And I've talked with, well, Chief Skipper, I know we talked about the fact that I would

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 like to know why an appeal is not valid, rather than it's the other one is written in the

238
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 book. Why is that appeal wrong? A little more information about that part of the of the

239
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 appeal process will help us as being the outsiders, the overseers, but the outsiders in that sense.

240
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:25,320
 So why is it why is something wrong when something else, when it appears to be right? So.

241
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 So can I ask you this, if I were to say, he has a valid point, if I use the information

242
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 from this book that this question didn't reference, but this book question was referenced out

243
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 of the with the question was referenced out of this book. So, you know, both situations,

244
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 you would have to take that into account. But the question references this book, and

245
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 that's how this book answered it. Would that be a more appropriate response from FIRE?

246
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:57,240
 Because I can concede that, like I said, there's two there's situations and there's a maybe

247
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:03,240
 two correct answers, but the most or best answer would be the one that was referenced

248
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:10,440
 that the question referenced that book me that would make a huge difference because

249
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 you're acknowledging their point, but you're but you're still they still have to be able

250
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 to follow directions. And if the right direction was to reference this particular source material,

251
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 then that's where they should have gotten it. And like you said, they should know the

252
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 difference, right? If they get confused, well, then that's then they got the question wrong,

253
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 you know, but if but if you can say that, if you said something like that, according

254
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 to this, that would have been correct, but they failed to notice this one detail that

255
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 they were supposed to get the sort the information from this book. And that's why the appeal

256
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 is not solid. And that would be huge. And I think that that's an acknowledgement for

257
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 them too, because you're you're saying you are correct. You know, it's like, yeah, I

258
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 mean, that would make a huge difference for me. I also like I'm teetering a line or at

259
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 least I felt like I was this year. Y'all, the commissioners know that three battalion

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 chiefs look at these questions to determine the department response. And I'm, I'm the

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 one voice that gets to present the department response. If I go against what three but like

262
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 if I say, hey, I said something like that, and I sway you to make a choice that was against

263
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 the department response, then that puts me in a bad position, not only with the appellants,

264
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 but with the department response. Does that make sense? What I'm saying? So I'm trying

265
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 to I'm trying to sway your decision making as little as possible, and just be as black

266
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 and white as I possibly can. Why would why would that why would our decision go against

267
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 what your three battalion chiefs would say because they're using the same source material

268
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 that you're quoting, isn't it? Well, to your point, y'all had seven questions on the captain's

269
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 exam that y'all ruled. And I think three or four of them were against the department recommendation.

270
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 So if I say something than what the department different than what the department recommendation

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 is, then I have personally influenced your decision against or for the department recommendation,

272
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 but your department recommendation is already written. But that's what I'm saying. So if

273
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 I say something more than that, when you ask me, you want to you want to know chief skippers

274
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 personal opinion about the topic, if I say something more than that, then I've influenced

275
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 you beyond what the department has recommended. And then go against what the department if

276
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 you if you rule against the department recommendation, based off of something I've said, now I'm

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 I'm in a bad position. I think I was gonna say chief skipper, the I'm on I'm on a zoom

278
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 call. Okay, thank you. The you just told me something I haven't heard in three years.

279
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 I thought the department position was you. Three other people involved. So to me, that's

280
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,840
 that's news. And that's good. I appreciate that there is more oversight than one voice,

281
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:18,520
 not that we discount your voice. But you know, you got other people looking at it. And so

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 when that when you say the department's position is this, that gives me a new perspective.

283
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:30,040
 You know, however, I think one of the issues that we were dealing with was on one page,

284
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 it may say one thing, we're staying in the same book, but on another page, that's also

285
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,760
 an equally correct answer. You know, I think that's what we get into the issue. But when

286
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,800
 you're talking about going from one book to another book, to me, I think you've clarified

287
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 that issue, as long as that presentation is given to all of the test takers, so that they

288
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 know both before the exam, and after the exam, that they're supposed to answer based on that

289
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 book, and not in a kind of a comprehensive way. I would say con if the if we expand the

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 department response to acknowledge and explain why an appeal isn't the best answer, then

291
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:22,720
 that takes you off the hook. But that means that that you guys have to work maybe work

292
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 a little bit harder than just simply it's a direct quote from the book. You might have

293
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 to work a little harder. But I think that would help us with understanding the situation

294
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 going in and help us to understand better how we need to make our decisions. So I think

295
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:52,280
 more information from your three battalion chiefs will help us not put you on the spot.

296
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:57,720
 They can help you but they've got to do something more than just well, that's what's quoted

297
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:05,040
 in the book. I was gonna say the same thing if they if they if the department response,

298
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,520
 you know, has already been looked at by three individuals that three collectively with no

299
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,920
 more than you know, one person, and the argument should already be made there, you wouldn't

300
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,960
 have to change your stance after that department response has already been written and presented.

301
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:28,120
 But we do kind of put them on the spot in one set when an appeal does come up. I mean,

302
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:34,400
 I, and over the years, that's happened. What happens in reality kinds of things. But again,

303
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:44,520
 I think if the if the response is more directed toward the appeal itself, and why that appeal

304
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:52,280
 is not a valid appeal, then I think we have even less reason to put the the the sacrificial

305
00:31:52,280 --> 00:32:01,120
 lamb on the line there when when the time comes. So I, I would agree, like, I absolutely

306
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:10,000
 agree, we need to do more vetting of questions. And then a little bit better explanation on

307
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:17,400
 the the appeal, our responses to the appeals. I do get the feeling sometimes. And this is

308
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:24,760
 just a personal opinion that the default mode is almost to give the appeal as opposed to

309
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:32,840
 stand with the departmental response. And I don't know that that's that's just that's

310
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,760
 a subjective feeling on my part, as opposed to anything I could say this right here, I

311
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,400
 don't have a good example of that. So

312
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:58,840
 eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 of the probably 25 appeals were sustained

313
00:32:58,840 --> 00:32:59,840
 the key.

314
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:07,280
 Okay, yeah, here's here was the thing I was thinking earlier, like the driver's exam.

315
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:12,000
 The driver's exam is very much a cognitive fact based like, hey, you're going to raise

316
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,960
 a ladder, it's going to be this it's information that you can remember, a captain or battalion

317
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:24,000
 chief exam, we get much more into leadership philosophy. And everyone has an opinion about

318
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,880
 leadership philosophy. So when we're talking about different books or different opinions

319
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:34,280
 about a certain subject, that's where we get a little because I've had in the past, you

320
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:39,280
 know, when Commissioner Abbott was on he, he straight up said to me, and one of my appeals,

321
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:45,720
 he didn't agree with what the book said. And I was like, I can't, I can't take a test based

322
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:51,520
 off a commissioners opinion of the subject material, I can only take a test off of the

323
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:52,520
 subject material.

324
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,320
 I'll tell you,

325
00:33:54,320 --> 00:34:05,280
 Colin, that when I first came on, and my understanding, I was, I was because I'm, I'm resistant and

326
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,880
 I'm still I understand what Michael saying that and you know, 143, it says that it has

327
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,400
 to be a written examination. I understand all of that. I hope that later, which is going

328
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,280
 to now be another three years, whenever you guys do the meet and confer again and negotiations

329
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,360
 that, you know, I know police does the lieutenant and they have an interview process in there,

330
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,980
 but maybe y'all could even introduce scenario questions, or, you know, some kind of comprehensive

331
00:34:27,980 --> 00:34:33,640
 essay or something that allows, you know, your people's critical thinking to shine instead

332
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:38,800
 of these memorization, right. But that's beside the point. But at the beginning, I was resistant

333
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,120
 to the memorization. So if someone came in and they showed me a strong argument, and

334
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,040
 they did their work and they provided critical thinking and they provided information from

335
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:53,080
 different parts of the text, or even another text, I was persuaded to advocate for the

336
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,760
 appellate. Now that you're telling me, you know, and all of this has been kind of clear

337
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:04,880
 that you're saying it is on top of the question, take it from this source material. And then

338
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,720
 now I'm like, okay, I'm not going to look at other books. I'm not looking at your application.

339
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:13,920
 I recognize what you're saying, but you can't use that, right? You can only use this book.

340
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,240
 But now, and if it's in the book, but on page one, it says, I don't know, there was a question

341
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:22,680
 last time about wording. And I remember, I even looked up the definitions of the words,

342
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,560
 something about leadership. And then on page 30, it said something different. You know,

343
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,680
 then that to me is still a strong appeal, because it's in the same source material,

344
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,800
 it's in the same, you know what I mean? But for all others, I'm going to sustain the key

345
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,800
 as long as the department's giving me enough information to say, you know, to say this

346
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,040
 is from this book, this is what this is saying, he's talking about that book that has nothing

347
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,960
 to do with this question right now. And I think Steve Hedges, you said it's a snapshot,

348
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:56,240
 which I think that's important, too. I'm not asking you of what you would do nine times

349
00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:03,320
 out of 10. It's a snapshot question of right now, this book, and this paragraph or whatever,

350
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,200
 you know what I mean? And so that's more clear for me now. Now I can stand more with what

351
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,920
 the department is saying and still feel that I'm being fair because they've already been

352
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,680
 told it's this book, you know, it's not anything else. It's this book. It's not, you know,

353
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:26,040
 your experience. Does that make sense? But I mean, I do wish that that we would allow

354
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,880
 them to do, you know, these multiple choice. I know that's the easiest grade. I know it's

355
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:36,880
 the fastest. But we would allow maybe these three Italian chiefs can read two, two essays,

356
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,960
 you know, of what would happen or something that would give them an opportunity to take

357
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:46,280
 all the experience and all the years that they had and to put it on paper.

358
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,720
 It's kind of my understanding that the way civil service is written and the fact that

359
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:57,400
 it is just a test is to take the subjective part of it, the good old boy system that the

360
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:03,720
 past that Fire to Heart ran off to make it so objective that I couldn't go in there.

361
00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:09,600
 Like to your example, if I create an essay for people to answer and I was grading it,

362
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:15,560
 I might grade my buddy really high because I look at it with a certain bias as opposed

363
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:20,320
 to the guy I don't like. He might actually have better answers, but I'm already going

364
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,040
 into that with a certain bias and I grade him really low.

365
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,040
 Yeah, I mean, there's ways to go around that. You guys can set up rubrics. You know, you

366
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,200
 can have rubrics that are that are subjective and they can help. I mean, I know that I got

367
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:39,800
 an MPA at UNT and we had we sat in that comprehensive exam for eight hours and all essays, you know,

368
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,400
 I mean, there are ways to get around that. I completely agree. I think that that's good

369
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:49,600
 in the right steps, but I think I think also it just makes it too black and white and you're

370
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:57,840
 rewarding people who are good test takers, who are who can memorize, but they're not.

371
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,400
 But I'm not but like, you know, to Commissioner Ramsey's point at the beginning, not just

372
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,080
 with fire, but even with police. I'm worried with the people on the street. I'm worried

373
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,680
 how how we're going to interact, the decision you're going to make on the spot, you know

374
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,760
 what I mean? For the protection of the rest of the citizens and for their own protection.

375
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:22,320
 So I think that we absolutely should move to something like that personally, but that's

376
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,560
 going to take contract negotiations and all this stuff that Chief Hedges was talking about

377
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:36,440
 earlier with the system we have now. I just that I believe that we can vet questions better.

378
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:42,720
 We can provide better input as far as why we sustain the key or accept an appeal. And

379
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:50,080
 to me, the stronger appellant is the one that says question the answer a was wrong. My answer

380
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:57,360
 b was better because I picked the best answer that we're saying. This is the best answer.

381
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:02,100
 Not that both answers are correct, because both answers might be correct to an extent,

382
00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:07,400
 but there's one that's better. You know, it's just like being a paramedic. If you're having

383
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,400
 a heart attack, there are 100 different things I could do that will probably be correct.

384
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,200
 But eventually there's a best thing that I could do that's going to be more helpful to

385
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:23,360
 you than the other thing I could have done. In your fire response to the appeal is where

386
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:34,760
 we need to know what that best, why the second answer isn't as good as the best answer. Because

387
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:43,700
 that very likely is what we don't know. I remember the questions of medications. I had

388
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:51,200
 no idea when we tested the EMTs. I had no idea what the medications were to know whether

389
00:39:51,200 --> 00:40:00,920
 one was better than the other. That's where your expertise, your and the other bat chiefs

390
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:08,160
 need to help us be able to make the right decision that also is right for the firemen

391
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:14,640
 that are doing the appeals, the folks that are doing the appeals. Kenneth, I would suggest

392
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:21,360
 that you might think about especially at the bat chief level, putting some kind of an interview

393
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:28,880
 process similar to what police does, because there are so much, all of the leadership stuff

394
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:36,160
 is really important, but really subjective, much more so than the driver test. It's not

395
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:41,000
 very subjective, but when you get the leadership books, you might think very seriously about

396
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:48,840
 throwing that out on the table and seeing where it goes in the next meet and confer

397
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:54,200
 agreement. This is kind of a step process. What we negotiated with fire sociologists

398
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:59,600
 in the last year, 2019, was one more step towards some type of a subjective assessment.

399
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,800
 They have assessment centers out there in the fire industry where, yes, you have to

400
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:10,520
 write essays, interviews on leadership traits, scenario-based questions as well. I've sat

401
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,160
 through a few with other cities and I don't fully agree. I think there's definitely hybrid

402
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:22,280
 systems we can implement, but that's outside 143. So we're covered by 143. We can go outside

403
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,720
 that, so it's going to be obviously a negotiation with our fire sociologists. But we definitely

404
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:34,840
 start at the higher level, with the battalions and captains. That's where more of the leadership

405
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:45,560
 world comes into play. That's what meet and confer was all about, or is all about, is

406
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:59,080
 supplementing the 143 rigidness. Can I say that? I guess I just did.

407
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:07,280
 I would also say, Colin, I know in the past, I think the first few meetings that I attended,

408
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:14,600
 sometimes it was brought up that out of the 45 test takers, 40 of them got the question

409
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:20,040
 correct. To me, that made a strong point. I can't remember what other meeting I asked

410
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,000
 about that and someone said, "Oh, we're not looking at that." But I think for me, especially

411
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,720
 in a department response, if you guys use that as a justification for saying this isn't

412
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:35,160
 a fluke, this isn't a bad question, I mean, 95% of the test takers knew what we were talking

413
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,680
 about, then to me that would be a stronger justification to hold the key.

414
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:49,520
 I agree. It speaks to the validity of the question, right? If that could be included,

415
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,400
 that would be in the department response, that would be great.

416
00:42:53,400 --> 00:43:00,160
 Colin, do you guys go back and look at reliability and validity?

417
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:05,120
 I don't say that we do because we hired, this is all outsourced. We hire a professional

418
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,680
 company to write all the tests and stuff. We just give them the books.

419
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,840
 So they don't capture the information, the results, and try to...

420
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:20,840
 No, I'd have to go physically do it. I have done it in my training, but it's been a long

421
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:21,840
 time.

422
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:30,380
 You need a book, right? On page 20. No, no, never mind.

423
00:43:30,380 --> 00:43:37,240
 I think that would help at least because if one person's appealing a question and everyone

424
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:44,880
 else got it right, it's like man, it speaks to something. I mean, you looked at it a different

425
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:50,880
 way than everybody else, but you looked at it wrong.

426
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:59,520
 Is there anything else? Lauren, did we get to your second point? We were in the middle

427
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,360
 of one. Did we get to your second? You said you had two issues.

428
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,520
 Yeah, no, it was that. It was the suggestion of the next time the meet and confer come

429
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:14,680
 around that supplemental factors are taken into consideration on just a written test.

430
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:20,760
 I think that that's important. They already talked about it a little bit.

431
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:26,920
 Okay. Well, I just want to make sure because I knew you had that second issue, so I wanted

432
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:37,040
 to make sure you got that. Anything else? Hearing none, seeing none, there's nothing

433
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:42,640
 else. Next meeting, Crystal, do we need to...

434
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,240
 If we would like to meet in August, we do need to set a meeting date today because I

435
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:51,240
 have to get that to the city secretary's office. We're very limited on dates in August. We're

436
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:56,960
 down to either August 17th, 26th, or 27th. Those are the only three dates that the room

437
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:03,920
 is that it's available. What do we have coming forward?

438
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:12,120
 What days of the week are those, Crystal? It looks like, I think, August 17th is a Monday

439
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:20,200
 and then the 26th is a Wednesday. The 27th is Thursday. I don't know of anything coming

440
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:25,800
 forward right now. We've already done the POAs for PD and Fire. There are no more appeals

441
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:35,600
 right now. PD might have... I don't know. I don't know of anything that's pressing that

442
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:41,200
 anybody has right now. Should we maybe go ahead and schedule the

443
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:49,840
 room and then we can always cancel it? You can always sell it to someone else for a fee?

444
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,280
 We could, but I won't charge them. I'm not going to say that.

445
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,680
 I would prefer not to do a Monday. Other than that, I'm okay.

446
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:04,640
 Okay. That leaves August 26th and 27th. I am going back to school, I think.

447
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:11,040
 Yeah, me too. I think. So later afternoons would be better

448
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:22,960
 for me. Okay. Thursdays... Well, I can do it after 10, after 10 on Wednesdays. My class

449
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:31,920
 is from 9 to 10. So I can do it Wednesday, mid-morning, or we can do it after school.

450
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:40,080
 School will be back. Maybe, depending on Friday, maybe school will be back in... Well, probably

451
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:47,440
 by then. I think the new start date that they're tossing around is the 26th. So that'd be the

452
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:55,520
 second day of school. Maybe mid to late afternoon, 3.30, 4 o'clock.

453
00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:00,480
 I'm good with either of those. I have enough advance notice, but Mondays are usually hard

454
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,840
 on me, so... Okay. Williams, 3.30?

455
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:10,640
 Yeah. 3.30 is fine. 3.30 or 4 is fine. All right. You can do 3.30 on that Wednesday,

456
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,640
 the 26th or 7th, but 6th. The Wednesday is the 26th, yes.

457
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,800
 Okay. That's first day of school. Is that okay, Lillian?

458
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:24,800
 Yeah. I was saying if that roused a reaction, so...

459
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,360
 No, I'm good. Okay.

460
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:32,480
 Okay. So we will tentatively schedule that. And we can always... If we don't have anything,

461
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,520
 there's no reason to meet other than just to see each other, so...

462
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:36,880
 Right. Okay.

463
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:43,680
 Hey, I just wanted to tell Colin and kind of thank you for the information, because to me,

464
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:49,280
 having that background information is really helpful. I came into this position as a volunteer,

465
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,480
 and I want to do right not only by the department, but by the officers as well. So anytime that you

466
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,720
 guys explain it, I know to you it's probably redundant, repetitive, because you live it every

467
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:02,640
 day. It's already... You already know it. But for me, any kind of background information you

468
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:08,560
 can give me, then that just helps me feel more confident and feel good about the time that we

469
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:14,320
 spend volunteering here. I think that last time I might've gotten a little bit frustrated because

470
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:19,040
 I was like, "Well, then what's the point? If it just says it's in the book, then what's the point?

471
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:26,320
 Why am I spending hours on this?" And so I think that that's helpful. So I appreciate y'all's time.

472
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,800
 And Michael, you too, just for all the explanation and looking at things from a different perspective.

473
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,520
 So thank you to all of y'all. Thanks, Mark. Mark, you too, and Crystal, you too.

474
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:41,440
 I would like to say thank you for your service on this committee. I mean, I know

475
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,120
 your scope seems limited, but it's a bigger role than what you actually imagine.

476
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:50,080
 There are certain people that they spend three, four, five months studying for one exam here in

477
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,560
 New York as well. So a lot of times, but then just I can speak in personal experiences with people

478
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,680
 that put in time, they're so invested in the pills and it can go so many different variations. So as

479
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:05,040
 we go through this, we're trying to narrow the ability of people to, like I said, not study and

480
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:11,040
 then swing and appeal a certain way as well. And it is definitely a work in progress. Thank you.

481
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:18,400
 I would like to keep working at it. I'm sorry, John. Go ahead, John.

482
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:26,000
 I'd certainly like to say cool bye, y'all. Thank you. I see Mark is over there chilling,

483
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:34,000
 asking for a change of positions after the first day. All right. If there's nothing else but

484
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:40,160
 formality for the good of the order, I would entertain a motion that we adjourn at 1126.

485
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:51,600
 So moved. Seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed. All right. Thank you all. Stay safe. Stay cool.