1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,320 Okay. Welcome everybody to the Board of Ethics meeting for today, June 25th. We're doing 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:20,480 this on Zoom, obviously. I think in the foreseeable future we'll be doing Zoom meetings if and 3 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:26,400 when we have them. I think that's what the city's mandate and I think it's most healthy 4 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:33,560 for all of us. And I think before we got on, I think everybody can hear and we can hear 5 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:46,720 everybody, all the members. So we'll first take attendance. Let's see. Ronnie, Mohair 6 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:53,800 is not here. Me, Laura Tomlin, I'm here. Dawn Cartwright. Charlotte Bradshaw is not here 7 00:00:53,800 --> 00:01:01,920 and she had a work conflict, so it's excused. Annetta Ramsey is here. Our new member Patricia 8 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:10,320 Renke is here. Ron Johnson is not on the Zoom. Deborah Cosmo, Rob Brainer and Bob Swanbeck 9 00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:16,880 are on the call and they're alternatives that will be taking the place of members today. 10 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:25,320 So let's move to agenda item 1A, consider approval of the minutes for February 13, 2020 11 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:33,040 and the minutes were sent out to everyone. Does anyone have any problems with the minutes? 12 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:42,000 And if I could have a motion to approve the minutes for February 13. Motion by Dawn Cartwright. 13 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:52,320 Is there a second? By Rob Brainer. And if there's no discussion, all in favor of approving 14 00:01:52,320 --> 00:02:00,000 the February 13, 2020 minutes? Aye. All right. So we'll approve those minutes. It seems like 15 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:07,240 a million years ago we had that meeting, but okay. So item 1B. Sorry, Laura. Laura. Sorry, 16 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,320 I'm going to have to cut in the way that council has been doing this, especially because we 17 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,920 still have one of our members now on the phone and not on the video. So we can't see his 18 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:19,040 vote. And if everybody says aye at the same time, we can't record it properly. You'll 19 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:29,320 just have to do it by roll call. Sorry. Okay, that's fine. All right. So I'm in favor. Dawn. 20 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:41,640 And Annetta? Aye. I guess Patricia, I don't know. Actually, no, you don't abstain under 21 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:47,480 our rules. You don't have a conflict. Basically, you're approving it because you don't see 22 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:57,520 any errors with it. Okay. All right. Okay. Thank you, Trey. Thank you. Okay. And Debra? 23 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:08,960 I think you're muted, Debra. Yes. Okay. Rob Rayner? Yes. And on the phone, Bob Swambat? 24 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:17,360 Aye. Okay. All right. So are we all good, Trey? Yes, ma'am. Good to go. Okay. All right. 25 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:27,160 Moving to item 1B, hold a discussion of current membership of the Board of Ethics. And let's 26 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:39,560 see here. And let's see it up on page. Good to go. Okay. So on May 23rd, 2020, Larry Beck 27 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:48,040 resigned from the board. He wasn't on too long, but he gave good, he gave good discussions 28 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:55,080 while he was on the board, and we wish him well. And our newest board member is Patricia 29 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:05,840 Renke, nominated by council member Maltzer. So welcome, Patricia. And Madison Rorschach? 30 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:14,880 I'm sorry. It's Rorschach. Okay, Rorschach. She is our, she's with the auditor's office 31 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,840 and who we're working with right now. The city council has not filled Umesh's position. 32 00:04:20,840 --> 00:04:26,660 And then Betsy has also left the city. So Madison is who I've been dealing with to set 33 00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:34,720 up the meeting and who we'll be dealing with until, I guess, until Umesh's place is filled. 34 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:45,560 Okay. So if there's no other discussion on new membership, we'll move to 1C. Receive 35 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,760 a report and hold discussion regarding the May 19th, 2020 city council work session presentation 36 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:56,280 and subsequent action items on June 2nd, 2020 city council agenda regarding changes to the 37 00:04:56,280 --> 00:05:03,160 ethics ordinance and rules of procedure. So via Zoom, well, I was on the phone, but city 38 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:09,480 council was on Zoom. I presented our ordinance changes and our rules of procedure changes 39 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:14,840 on May 19th. Madison actually put in a hyperlink for everybody. If you were able to go and 40 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:21,840 watch that, it was a PowerPoint of everything we've pretty much talked about for two years. 41 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:26,640 And there weren't really any questions. There was a question on conflict of interest and 42 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,320 whether we are going to ask them to make an amendment on conflict of interest. And that's 43 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:36,540 actually in our agenda item D. So not to start a discussion on that now, but they want us 44 00:05:36,540 --> 00:05:43,200 to report to them whether we are in an impasse as far as changing the conflict of interest 45 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,640 or if we still want to work on that. But let's not discuss, let's save that discussion for 46 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:53,880 agenda item D. Other than that, there really weren't a lot of questions. And on June 2nd, 47 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,940 they approved the ordinance and the rules of procedure. The rules of procedure, it was 48 00:05:57,940 --> 00:06:06,080 just kind of house cleaning, nothing like substantive. And the ordinance now going quickly through 49 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:11,320 what was approved, special council will be called when we have hearings that deal with 50 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:17,600 the city council member because the city attorney has a conflict. Accused in the ordinance has 51 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:23,440 been changed to respondent. Now the respondent gets a copy of complaint. And in the past 52 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:32,200 they didn't. Retaliation is now a violation of the ethics ordinance. What a relative is 53 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:39,980 in the relative, a reference to the government code definition of relative is now in the 54 00:06:39,980 --> 00:06:44,360 government and department supervisor has been removed out of one section because the ethics 55 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:50,480 ordinance is not applicable to the department supervisor. That's pretty much what I have 56 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:57,800 there. Are there any questions or discussions about that? Not seeing any. So we'll move 57 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:06,520 straight into agenda item 1D. Receive a report, hold a discussion and take necessary action 58 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:13,800 regarding potential changes to chapter 2 article 11 section 2-273A. And that is the section 59 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:22,240 on conflict of interest. And I'll pull up the agenda information sheet to show what 60 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:39,480 exactly we need to be deciding. All right. Okay. So as we know, we can recommend amendments 61 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:45,400 to the city, to the ordinance to the city council. And on May 19th, when I presented 62 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:50,900 the city council directed the board of ethics to report back if the board had reached an 63 00:07:50,900 --> 00:08:00,440 impasse regarding the conflict of interest section of the ethics ordinance. And oh, actually 64 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:10,360 clear that again, hold on. And Madison had gone back and we had talked about conflict 65 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:16,320 of interest at several meetings, January, a couple of times in February, August, September 66 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:23,640 and October of 2019. And then most recently, February 2020 of this year. I believe back 67 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:31,880 at one of the some of the 2019 meetings, we had former member David Zoltner give some 68 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,720 suggestions for amendments on the conflict of interest. Deborah Cosmo has also presented 69 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:44,400 on that. And most recently, Annetta has brought four possible amendments to the conflict of 70 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:53,160 interest. And we've never come to a consensus or majority as far as wanting to change it. 71 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:59,240 So that's where we are now. I think if we were to go back to them and say we're at an 72 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,200 impasse, it would the ball would be in city council court, as far as if they want to make 73 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:10,280 any changes to conflict of interest, if it stays with us. I guess we would just keep 74 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:15,560 going the way we've been going, as far as people sending recommendations and having 75 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:22,640 presentations of different recommendations to the city council. When I presented councilmember 76 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:28,440 armature was the one that was asking. She was who I remember asking about the conflict 77 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,640 of interest. And she had asked if we had gone over the model code. And I think she had brought 78 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,280 up the San Marcos ordinance is the one that she had brought up. And she asked if we discussed 79 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,480 that. And I told her, yeah, we, we had because I think that's what Annetta brought to us 80 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:47,240 from what I remember, and on February 13, 2020. And we did not come to a majority or 81 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,640 consensus on that. So I guess what I would like to do is just everybody to kind of give 82 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,760 her opinion. And I guess whatever the majority wants to do, whether we keep on working on 83 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,440 this, or we say we're an impasse, which I think if we're at an impasse, I mean, it doesn't 84 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:08,760 mean we have to stay at an impasse forever. But based on our last meeting, sometimes I 85 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,360 felt like we were kind of arguing in circles and not getting anywhere. So I don't want 86 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,800 us to waste our time. But if we think we could actually make movement and change something, 87 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,560 then you know, we should, we can keep having meetings about it. So I'll stop talking now 88 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:30,080 and let everybody else give their word. I think I didn't want to say that. I didn't 89 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,880 really think that the San Marcos code was the best. I thought the model code was the 90 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:44,720 best. Can you hear me? Yeah, I had to turn up my, my earphones. Very quiet. Okay. I think 91 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:51,320 that West first code is the best. And I would love to see his definition, because I think 92 00:10:51,320 --> 00:11:01,040 it is a lot more broad than the code that we have. And I guess not, not to cut you off, 93 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,680 if you have more to say, but I guess I don't want to get into discussion today of what, 94 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:09,160 what are we going to change it to? We just needed to, do we want to keep on working on 95 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,920 it? Or do we want to tell, tell city council at this point, we're at an impasse and we're 96 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,880 not going to keep having meetings about it unless I guess something new happens maybe. 97 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,880 So I'm guessing since I know you want, you like Westler's code, so I'm guessing you want 98 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:37,080 to keep working on it. Let me take a tally so I can remember at the end. All right. Rob 99 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:43,680 Rainer. If we thank you, if we state that it's an impasse and we take it to the city 100 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:52,600 council, are you saying then they have the option to make the decision for us and then 101 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:59,240 we adopt that and move on? And Trey can jump in if I'm getting this wrong, but I think 102 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,080 under the ordinance, we can recommend changes and they can take them or leave them. They 103 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,280 can vote for them or vote against them. But I think they have the power at any point to 104 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,400 change the ordinance. So if we went to an impasse, they could change it or they could 105 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:20,160 not change it. I think it would be up to them. Thank you. Right. I'll chime in just quickly. 106 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,000 The difference here is the changes to the ethics ordinance, which is where conflict 107 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:30,160 of interest is versus changes to the board of ethics rules of procedure, where the rules 108 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,920 of procedure y'all can come up with and they're subject to ratification of council. Council 109 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,480 can always change the ethics ordinance itself, but can look to you for recommendations. So 110 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:45,480 if the board of ethics as a body does not have a recommendation as to a change for the 111 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,920 conflict of interest definition, council can still move ahead with a potential change to 112 00:12:49,920 --> 00:13:02,800 that without such a recommendation by the board. Does that help? Thank you. Yes, sir. 113 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:09,120 All right. Rob, do you have feelings about whether we want to keep on meeting about the 114 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:14,720 conflict of interest or tell them that we're at an, and I keep saying impasse for now because 115 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:20,720 I don't want this to be like a cutoff forever. Things could change. But do you have a feeling 116 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:28,680 about that, Rob? I am, I'd like to hear from the other members if I could before I'm leaning 117 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:35,920 either way. But I think it's, if I know that the council can make the decision themselves, 118 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,160 I'm just wondering if that may be the best way to move on this right now, but I'd like 119 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:49,080 to hear what others think. All right. Who else? Deborah? Yes. If we, if we sent it back 120 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:54,280 to council for clarification, I think there are several things that need to be clarified 121 00:13:54,280 --> 00:14:01,800 and perhaps they might be the best body to do that. Because I think part of our discussion 122 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:09,560 is that we're really not clear about some of the terms. That's my opinion. One is that 123 00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:18,560 in code of ordinances, chapter two, section two dash 83, which is the rules and procedure, 124 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:25,120 it references matter, but in the ethics code, it's pending matter. Are those the same thing 125 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:32,720 or are they two different things? Another is that financial interest in that particular 126 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:46,040 ordinance is the same as substantial interest in the Texas government code 171. So in trying 127 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:54,960 to map out what means what, does conflicting interest equal financial interest? Does conflicting 128 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:00,520 interest equal financial interest, which equals substantial interest according to this ordinance? 129 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:10,200 And then in the charter, we have another, we have that it's required a definition of 130 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:16,640 potential economic interest. So is economic potential economic interest the same as a 131 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,880 pending matter of financial interest? So I think it would be very, very helpful to have 132 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:27,960 a clarification of terms so we know what we're talking about and make recommendations. So 133 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:36,040 are you saying like have city council decide on those clarifications or have us have meetings 134 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:43,400 about those clarifications? I think if we decide to throw it back to them, that we should 135 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:50,120 say not that we're at an impasse, but we would like clarification of these terms and throw 136 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:55,760 that back to them. Because if we're talking about apples and oranges, we're never going 137 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:03,440 to get to an agreement except fruit basket. Yeah, I think you might be right as far as 138 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:10,040 the conversations we've had about this thus far. It seems like people are just on or speaking 139 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:16,760 different languages. Yeah, we are. And anyone that lives in Dunn should be able to pull 140 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:24,160 this up and understand what it says. Your honor, one of the problems I believe we have 141 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:30,120 and Deborah, you did a great presentation a couple of meetings ago, but it depends on 142 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,400 the situation that is presented to us. And each situation has been and I've said on most 143 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:42,120 of the panels that have been presented to us. I think it's pretty self explanatory. And 144 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:49,120 I'm not sure that we need any changes now. And we can change and change and change. But 145 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:54,720 unless there's some specific problem that we have, I don't think that we have a problem. 146 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:04,540 And I think I've reiterated that each meeting we've had. Yeah, honestly, I tend to agree 147 00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:10,280 with you, Don, on that one that I mean, the panels we've had, it seems like we've all 148 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,960 been able to come to an agreement or the vast majority have been able to come to an agreement 149 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:24,080 on those. Also, David's letter we got was very, very interesting and very good. But 150 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:30,320 I'm not sure that it would make either, either one of them we could work with and do. But 151 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:39,280 I don't see a problem with ours. So and again, I don't like the word like the word impasse, 152 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:45,400 but Don, I'm getting that you just don't think we need to make changes right now. I don't 153 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:51,520 I don't see where it's I think it's more confusing as trying to make all these little changes 154 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:57,320 in working with what we have right now. Because I haven't seen a problem with what we have 155 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:58,320 right now. 156 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,600 I actually tend to agree with you on that one. 157 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:15,480 This is Bob, let me ask you a couple of questions. In past meetings, I got the impression that 158 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:24,280 the council itself was not fully focused, so to speak on what the code and what the 159 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:34,600 languages and so forth should be. And if they're not focused, I'm not sure we can do anything 160 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:47,160 besides make some recommendations. But furthermore, the elections are going to change the or potentially 161 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:57,320 change the nature of the of the council. So my general idea or feeling is that we we continue 162 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:05,480 to try to come up with some things that the group itself can can recommend, but also look 163 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:12,600 at things that are happening or not happening relative to the ordinance itself, what kind 164 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:19,000 of experiences are we getting or not getting that that says we need to tinker with something 165 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:26,560 further, particularly since we're looking at a delayed election. I think once the new 166 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,560 council gets seated, then we may be able to maybe able to get some more guidance from 167 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,840 them as to where they think or excuse me, let me change that. What they would probably 168 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:42,880 accept from the group, because I didn't get the impression that that they were ready to 169 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,120 make any kind of significant changes. 170 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:55,160 Yeah, Bob, I, I, so I when I had presented to council before and brought back what they 171 00:19:55,160 --> 00:20:01,280 had said, I remember it being not exactly clear what they want it. And we discussed 172 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:06,840 that. So I believe some members have talked about, you know, we need to bring forth whatever 173 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,040 minute we have, no matter what the council does. But yeah, I don't think we've gotten 174 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:22,600 a clear direction on what exactly they would they would want. I guess it's though. 175 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:29,920 We as a group don't have a clear picture in our mind of what what the code ought to be. 176 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:35,320 And as was stated a second ago, if it's pulled up by a citizen, what it's supposed to look 177 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,120 like and read like. 178 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:46,080 So I guess Bob, do you would you like to keep having media? Okay, I think somebody might 179 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:53,120 have I hear an echo. Would you like to keep having meetings about the conflict of interest 180 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:59,560 or say that we've come to an impasse for for now? 181 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:10,400 Is what I see the language being. But I also, as you stated, I think we need to have some 182 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:16,900 focus with our own discussions and what we're trying to achieve before we start looking 183 00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:22,860 at three or four different kind of options. So keep working on it. Yeah. And there's the 184 00:21:22,860 --> 00:21:27,120 old line, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's a flip side to that coin. If it ain't 185 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:34,360 broke, make it better. So I would say that we keep working on it, unless there's something 186 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:43,760 else that's supposed to be done that I haven't heard about. But I think that just going belly 187 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,600 up is not the way for the group to go. 188 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:57,920 Okay. And, Patricia, I know you're brand new. Do you have feelings about this either way? 189 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,480 I imagine it's probably hard for you because you haven't been to the, you know, previous, 190 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,400 I don't know, seven or eight meetings that we've talked about this. 191 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,160 Talking about it. Oh, wait a minute. Yeah, I'm unmuted. You've been talking about it 192 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,160 for how long? 193 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:28,640 Let me bring this back up on, it was on the agenda. All right, we have, it started in 194 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:36,320 January of 2019. We met January twice in February, August, September and October of last year, 195 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:41,320 and then once February of this year. I wouldn't say that all the meetings were all conflict 196 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,520 of interest because many of them touched on different subjects. I think at least a few 197 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:51,160 of them were all conflict of interest. And I would say we've put several hours into discussing 198 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:58,920 this and haven't come to a consensus or majority. And if anybody thinks differently, they can 199 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,040 chime in, but I think that's where we are. 200 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:11,760 Oh, gosh, I don't know. I mean, I wish I could give you an opinion, but I don't feel like 201 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,120 I have enough information to give you an opinion. 202 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:21,800 Yeah, it's completely understandable. I just want to make sure you could have a say if 203 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:31,640 you want it. Let's see. And Deborah, you had spoken, but I assume you probably still want 204 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:41,000 to keep working on it, or are you saying we should go back and keep working on it? Okay. 205 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:46,240 Well, I guess, so my thoughts on this, I've already said I don't really like the word 206 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,280 in-pass because I don't want it to be like we're never going to look at conflicts of 207 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:57,440 interest again. I don't think we've really gotten anywhere in our meetings in over the 208 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:07,360 past year and a half. I think that we kind of have similar suggestions keep coming up 209 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:17,080 and similar arguments, not similar discussions, and we come out with nothing. So I'm, I don't 210 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:25,680 know, I guess I'm kind of like a few of you of being on the fence. I think that I don't 211 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:33,280 want to keep having meetings that are not productive, but I don't want to say we're 212 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,480 never going to change conflict of interest. I think things could change. Somebody could 213 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,200 think up a brilliant idea that we haven't talked about yet that would really explain 214 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:48,400 it better and everybody would agree to. So I guess I'm kind of in the middle of, I don't 215 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:55,480 want to meet every month and discuss things for three hours and not really make any progress, 216 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:01,440 but I don't want to just say we're at an impasse. We're never going to talk to it again. So 217 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:08,280 I guess I would want to tell council, it's a work in progress and we don't have anything 218 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:16,300 for you right now. We'll see how things go. I don't know. So that's where I'm at. I guess 219 00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:21,660 I'm putting a question mark next to my name, as well as Patricia and Rob, unless anybody 220 00:25:21,660 --> 00:25:25,600 changes their mind. And Rob, you said you wanted to hear from everybody. Do you have 221 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:26,600 an opinion? 222 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:33,000 Real quick before we go back to discussion in the round, I just wanted to point out just 223 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,760 because of our technical limitations, we're being asked on the back end if y'all could 224 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:42,360 mute and unmute yourselves as we go along because of the propensity to have not being 225 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:45,760 able to keep a clear record of what's going on if we're talking over one of each other 226 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:52,960 and a delay or anything like that. Just let Laura know that you'd like to speak and she 227 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:58,160 can recognize you and then you can unmute then and that'll help keep the record clear, 228 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,340 especially for those who can't watch or because of a delay or something like that. Thank you. 229 00:26:02,340 --> 00:26:09,440 Thank you, Trey. Rob, did you have a opinion now after hearing everybody speak? And I recognize 230 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,440 Rob. 231 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:18,360 Oh, thank you. Well, if I understood Trey, if we submit this to the council, they could 232 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:23,820 make their decisions, but that wouldn't prevent us from still working on this for anything 233 00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:29,360 that may come up that we weren't ready for and then present that to them for a suggestion 234 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:37,920 to change. Would that also then free us up a valuable time that we use at our meetings 235 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:43,560 to discuss something that we have not had much success with for the past seven meetings? 236 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,520 I would prefer running it at the council and then it would free us up to take care of other 237 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,920 issues that could be more pressing. What they are, let's see what they are and then we'll 238 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,320 know if they're pressing. 239 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:06,800 Deborah, I recognize Deborah. 240 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:14,760 I have a question for Trey. I think it would be very helpful to have a cross reference 241 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:24,820 of the ordinance to the charter and that might help in figuring out exactly when we're talking 242 00:27:24,820 --> 00:27:29,860 about conflicting interest, how it ties into the charter. Has a cross reference like that 243 00:27:29,860 --> 00:27:33,360 been done? 244 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:39,120 I'm sorry, I'm not really sure what you're asking for. 245 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:47,800 In the charter it says prohibited economic interest. How does that cross reference to 246 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:56,840 the current ethics ordinance? Is that pending matter or does it cross reference to general 247 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:02,360 rules, the code of ordinance? I just want to know, is there any document that ties it 248 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:06,760 all together so that we know that when we're talking about pending matter, it means the 249 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:14,400 same as matter, financial interest, substantial interest? 250 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,800 We haven't prepared anything like that. I think probably if you go back to when it was 251 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,180 drafted and Alan Borquez's firm was going through putting on all the provisions based 252 00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:29,240 on the charter amendment, there's probably some of that there, but we haven't prepared 253 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,440 something like that, no ma'am. 254 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:38,480 I would think that the charter came out and then the City Council had their 11 public 255 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:44,080 meetings and they worked on it and I would think they'd probably have to go back and 256 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:57,800 look at all that to see maybe how it, when they came up with the language, I guess. So 257 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:13,000 right now I have that Annetta and Bob and Deborah definitely want to keep having the 258 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:19,200 meetings about conflict of interest. I have that Don is saying we should just keep it 259 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:29,000 as is. Rob is saying we should send kind of this issue to council and can keep working 260 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:35,460 on things, but not necessarily conflict of interest. Patricia is brand new, so she doesn't 261 00:29:35,460 --> 00:29:43,600 really have an opinion yet, this being her first meeting. So I guess it comes to me and 262 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:55,440 I kind of think that we tell council, we don't have anything right now, and I think that 263 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,640 we should just keep, and this might come up in our next agenda item about future meetings, 264 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:07,200 I think that we just keep having, if people have ideas of amendments and things that they 265 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:13,520 want to discuss and work on for an amendment, they send them to me or me and Madison and 266 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:20,680 then we just, the next time we have a meeting, we discuss those things. And if we don't have 267 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,600 any recommendations, I guess we don't have, we wouldn't meet and we kind of just kind 268 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:32,720 of play by, just keep going somewhat the way we've been going and maybe we'll discuss conflict 269 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:41,360 of interest, maybe we'll discuss other things like Rob was saying. How does everybody feel 270 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:53,280 about that? Is there anybody that wants to speak up or, Annetta, I recognize Annetta. 271 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,320 I really wanted to make a comment about, it seems like everybody's really worried about 272 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:03,480 what council thinks, and that's an ethical blind spot that Westler talks about. He talks 273 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:09,840 about how when the governing body itself makes the rules, they never look the same as they 274 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:18,200 do to the citizens outside. So I think we should definitely make, you know, whatever 275 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:26,600 recommendations we think as a group our best, and we should all weigh in on that. And they 276 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:38,240 can take it or leave it. I mean, I don't, the other parties could change a lot with 277 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:45,400 this election and we don't know when that's going to happen. Right? I mean, I, I think 278 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:55,280 the election's set for November, but you know, the way the world's going. November 4th? Wow. 279 00:31:55,280 --> 00:32:00,680 And I don't think that we're not afraid to take things to council. I think the bigger 280 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:10,840 issue is we can't get the majority of us to vote on a change, if that makes sense. I mean, 281 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:16,280 I don't know if, I mean, I'm not too concerned, you know, whatever, I think that we should 282 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,800 bring forth whatever we all agree on. I think the bigger issue is we haven't been able to 283 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:29,320 find a, an improvement or conflict of interest that the majority of us can agree on that 284 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:36,520 is, is, is that we, the majority of us feel is better than the current conflict of interest. 285 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:48,680 I think that's the bigger issue. So, so what will we be telling council? Will we just tell 286 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:59,760 them that we're going to, we don't have a conflict of interest for them yet, but we 287 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:05,680 will continue to work on amendments as we come up with them and as we come up with ideas 288 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,920 of how, how it can be improved. Does that sound like a plan or does anybody have a better 289 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:20,480 idea of what we should bring to council? And Trey, I guess does that, would that answer 290 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,000 their question? Cause I, I kind of don't, and I don't think I really heard from anybody 291 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,400 that like we're at an impasse. We're never going to talk about it again. Would you think 292 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,920 it would be acceptable to tell council, like we don't have anything for them right now, 293 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:39,360 but it's a work in progress. And as we come up with new ideas and discuss new things, 294 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,720 we might come up with them in the future. I'm not sure exactly how we should answer that. 295 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,360 Well, I think, I think you answered just where the board is. I mean, again, you're, you're, 296 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,680 you're welcome to keep talking about it or you're welcome to move on to other topics. 297 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,400 I mean, it's, it's at the, it's at the pleasure of the board to decide what they want to do 298 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,800 with this particular topic. And I don't think that there's necessarily a wrong answer to 299 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,760 that question. Council just asked where you stood. It's not necessarily that you're at 300 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,520 an impasse. And even, even if you're not at an impasse, that doesn't stop council from 301 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,560 considering themselves. Anyway, it's just, if a majority of council wants to consider 302 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:18,600 it aside from y'all doing it at the same time, they can also do that. Okay. Well then I mean, 303 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:25,240 I think we'll just report to council that we don't have anything for them on conflict 304 00:34:25,240 --> 00:34:31,800 of interest and we'll just keep going the way we've been going. I think, like I said, 305 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:37,680 council member Armator did bring up the, some city codes and the model code. And I did let 306 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:42,640 her know that we have already discussed those. So I would say in the future and we'll, I 307 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:49,120 guess we'll talk about that in the next agenda item. When we have future meetings that, I 308 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:55,080 mean, I would prefer that we, that things that we don't rehash the same discussions 309 00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:02,180 that we've already had and already voted on. So I think we will, let me look back at the 310 00:35:02,180 --> 00:35:06,360 agenda. I think that's how we'll answer them. I don't, I don't know if that's exactly what 311 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,800 they wanted, but I didn't, I don't know if I really liked the question more than I thought 312 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:19,120 about it of are we at an impasse or not. Does anybody else have any comments about agenda 313 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:26,520 item one D? Okay. I'm not seeing any hands or anybody speaking. Okay. So let's move on 314 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,760 to, and Laura, since you can't hear the board member that's on the phone, you should probably 315 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,680 ask him just to confirm in case he muted himself and was trying to speak up, but maybe forgot 316 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:41,280 to unmute himself. You just might not hurt to double check with him. Bob, do you have 317 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:50,700 anything else? Well, I'm very hard to mute. But I agree with what, with what you're describing. 318 00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:59,480 And I think in the next section, I have a potential suggestion relative to process for 319 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:07,920 this agenda item and maybe others. Okay. Well, let's give me just a second and we'll get 320 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:16,920 back to you on that one. Hold on, I was going to bring this up and share my screen. Okay. 321 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:37,000 So the next agenda item is discussing future board meetings. And Madison listed all the 322 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:44,920 board meetings that we've had. She put that about a year ago in July of 2019, we unanimously 323 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,200 agreed to schedule a regular meeting for the last Thursday of each month. She also commented 324 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:56,920 that currently we're doing all board meetings virtually. So it would be another Zoom meeting. 325 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:03,400 Our rules of procedure say that either the chair or city auditor can call a meeting. 326 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:08,240 It also says that on the request of three members, you can call a meeting, which I don't 327 00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:12,960 really know if it's a good idea for three or more members to start talking about, we 328 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,080 need a meeting or not. Cause I feel like that might be a rolling quorum. So I don't know 329 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,440 if that's something maybe we should look at in the rules of procedure, but so on the request 330 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:28,000 of three members, the chair or the city auditor. And like I said, in the past, we have agreed 331 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:35,160 to schedule the meetings the last Thursday of each month. I think most recently we had 332 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,200 the February meeting. We had a meeting scheduled in March and that's of course when a pandemic 333 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:48,760 hits the world. So we canceled that in person meeting in April. I think we were waiting 334 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,440 on my presentation at council. Like we don't want to meet again before I present it because 335 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:59,760 we just kind of didn't have anything new to talk about yet. So April was canceled in May. 336 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,200 The city council meeting I presented on was May 19th. So there wasn't enough time to get 337 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,160 a meeting in before then. So now we're into June. And that's why our next meeting has 338 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:18,680 been June. I think before that between when we, when we met at the end of last year, we 339 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:25,820 would have people just send suggestions of what, what we wanted to talk about as far 340 00:38:25,820 --> 00:38:33,320 as amendment to the ordinance. And then we would have meetings on those topics. I would 341 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:41,760 say that keeping the regular meetings. I think that we, we could have it kind of scheduled 342 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,200 for people like put on their calendar. This is, this might be a meeting. And then we just, 343 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:51,080 like we just discussed in the last agenda item, as things come up, if people have ideas 344 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:57,960 of things they think we should discuss, we can have meetings as needed. And I think, 345 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:03,000 oh, go ahead, Madison. I just wanted to say, I worked with the city secretary's office. 346 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:09,500 So we do have a meeting scheduled for July 30th, which is the last Thursday of July. 347 00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:15,480 But we do need like a little bit of lead time, right? Because they're virtual now. So we 348 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,960 just need to give it to the city staff a little bit of time before we can't just schedule 349 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:24,840 one very, very quickly. It's really just what I wanted to throw out. Okay. So how much lead 350 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,400 time do you need? Cause we could do something like if you have any suggestions for this 351 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:36,400 meeting, get it to us by July 10th or July 15th. And I mean, how long, how much lead 352 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:44,120 time do you think you need? Right now they're doing it about a month before. Okay. Yeah. 353 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:51,880 We could just say we have, and I mean, I'll hear from the board. I'm just maybe be proposing 354 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,960 something. We could do an August meeting and have whatever you want to do, get it to us 355 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,840 by the end of July. And then we would talk about it at the August meeting. Cause it sounds 356 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:07,380 to me like we would need to know pretty quickly here if we want to go forward with that July 357 00:40:07,380 --> 00:40:18,160 meeting or yes. Yeah, I think so. Um, and, uh, actually I think Bob on the phone, uh, 358 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:27,720 you had an idea as far as meetings. Would you like to share that Bob Swanbeck? Yes. 359 00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:39,280 Can you hear me? Okay. I don't think I ever muted, but, uh, very rarely do. Uh, I think 360 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:48,840 that we, we should do some ongoing activities and discussions about topics that are of interest. 361 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:55,040 And when we have a topic like the conflict of interest and we can't seem to come to a 362 00:40:55,040 --> 00:41:04,280 meeting as a large group, let's think about giving it to a subcommittee to come back to 363 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:13,280 the group with specific recommendations, uh, about what changes, uh, are necessary and, 364 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:19,320 and what the language should look like, uh, rather than just, uh, you know, going around 365 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:26,880 and bouncing back and forth as you said, you know, going in circles. Uh, if a group goes 366 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,920 in circles, chances are they don't know where they're going. So, uh, a smaller group may 367 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:39,280 be able to put some focus to it. Um, I guess I'd like to know Trey, what are the rules 368 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:49,240 about that? Creating a subcommittee? Um, yes. And I mean, you could do it. We would need 369 00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:53,160 to post it at a meeting and have y'all create it at a meeting. We're not posted to create 370 00:41:53,160 --> 00:42:00,120 a subcommittee today, but I mean, it's something the board could do. Yes. Okay. So I guess 371 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:05,880 what we, I mean, my thoughts on that is maybe, uh, you come up with what we want a subcommittee 372 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:11,920 on. I know at one point, um, I believe it was David Soltner and Jesse Davis on at the 373 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:18,520 very beginning of this ethics board, they were on a subcommittee that, uh, I could, 374 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,360 anybody can correct me if they remember differently, but I think they came up with some of the 375 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:27,160 recommendations that we just got passed by council. So, um, I mean, that, that would 376 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,800 be something that we can do. And I know, uh, uh, I don't know if Debra and Annetta worked 377 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:37,400 together on, on some of those presentations now. Okay. I guess it was just, um, maybe 378 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:44,800 them alone working on it. Um, so I wouldn't be against that, but I guess we would have 379 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:51,640 to get that on the agenda of, um, the next meeting or one of the next meetings if we 380 00:42:51,640 --> 00:43:04,760 were to do that. Um, other ideas. Oh, go ahead, Bob. Since we don't have a specific, uh, recommendation 381 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:11,400 about the process, my suggestion is that we put it on the next agenda to talk through 382 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:19,560 the idea of, uh, using subcommittees and what they need to be doing and what kind of, uh, 383 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,840 legal things we have to go through in terms of posting and getting people together and 384 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:28,920 all that kind of stuff. Uh, and I don't see any urgency right now in any of the things 385 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:35,600 we're doing, but I think some of this stuff is important enough to keep working on it. 386 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:46,640 Uh, Rob, I think Rob raised his hand first. I'll recognize him. If I may. I think subcommittees 387 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:52,040 are great. My concern is since we are doing zoom and evidently, uh, I'll call it bandwidth 388 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,920 for lack of doing anything else is somewhat restricted. How would those, and we may discuss 389 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:01,080 it, something we may need to discuss at the next meeting, how would those individuals 390 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:06,760 get together and would it have to be zoomed? Would it have to be open to the public? Uh, 391 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:16,040 I'm afraid that we may be, uh, creating a more, um, attention that we don't really have 392 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,360 as far as the energy that the city can give us to get all this together. As far as the 393 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:25,480 subcommittee, if we can be on a street corner and all three corners and yelled at each other, 394 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,920 that's one thing. But if it has to be public and all, I'm just concerned about the mechanics 395 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:36,680 of the subcommittee, not the subcommittee itself. Right. If, and if we were to create 396 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,560 a subcommittee, it would be subject to all applicable, like Toma issues, stuff like that. 397 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,880 So we'd have to post it. We'd need to be open to the public, stuff like that. I think what 398 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:55,240 Laura was talking about related to, uh, uh, now council member Davis and, uh, who was 399 00:44:55,240 --> 00:45:00,680 it? Mr. Beck. Oh, Zoltner, Mr. Zoltner working on some of the initial changes is that there 400 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,160 wasn't ever an actual subcommittee. They just took it upon their themselves in their own time 401 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:09,240 to pull that together and then present it to the board to try to narrow down some of the issues. 402 00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:13,720 I don't think an actual subcommittee was created back then, but if we create a subcommittee to do 403 00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:19,000 this, it would, we would need to follow all the applicable Toma rules. And I would imagine 404 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:24,760 right now it would have to be on zoom. I kind of don't want three of you getting together because 405 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:33,960 of, uh, the skyrocketing cases of coronavirus and our County and our state. Um, okay. So 406 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:40,360 Annette, I'm sorry. Let's recognize Annette. Uh, go ahead. I would like to suggest that we have, 407 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,800 we schedule a meeting for July 30th and we may just have one agenda item and that is to 408 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:52,680 decide if we want to have a subcommittee. And by then we can work out whatever the, 409 00:45:53,560 --> 00:46:02,920 whatever we need to do to, to follow OMG. Um, just a kind of a general subcommittee to work on 410 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:10,520 whatever needs to be changed or just on conflict of interest or whatever. I mean, 411 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,280 I think that should also, what does the subcommittee work on? That's fine. 412 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:23,000 Um, okay. This is going to sound funny, but have the subcommittee decide on what the subcommittee 413 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,400 is working on or have the meeting and decide the subcommittee and whether or not we have 414 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:36,920 a subcommittee and what is their charge. Um, anyone else have thoughts they want to share? 415 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:47,320 Deborah. Well, it's part of the discussion. Um, we could also discuss whether or not we need 416 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:54,120 additional subcommittees to look at different topics. So, uh, and there may be some cross, um, 417 00:46:54,120 --> 00:47:00,680 membership of that, but I noticed the lobbying, uh, section of the code of ethics has never 418 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,880 been addressed. Is that something that we would want to look at? 419 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:15,800 Um, Rob. Uh, before we get into too many specifics on how to make subcommittees, 420 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:21,720 we have in such, I think first of all, let's get the basic guidelines for a subcommittee. 421 00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:26,840 And I think that can be done next month. I agree with them either there, uh, but not specifically 422 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:33,960 pigeonhole it for, uh, whatever issue we want. Let's first find out what it takes to have that 423 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:40,760 subcommittee, uh, the time committed, the resources committed. Cause that I think is the first step 424 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:50,360 before we start doing anything else in my, my thought process. Um, and I guess this might be 425 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:57,080 a question for either Madison or Trey. So if, if next month we decided to create a subcommittee, 426 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,720 um, I guess we would just post an agenda that we create a subcommittee that and that subcommittee, 427 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:04,440 um, what else would we need to do? 428 00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:11,160 Well, we would, we would post it for, you know, discuss, deliberate and 429 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,000 take potential action regarding the creation of a subcommittee and the charge there for. 430 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:19,960 And so that would specifically, you'd come up with the charge of what that committee would do. 431 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:25,480 Okay. And I guess what that would look like is we would at that meeting, we'd also 432 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:30,600 say who's on the subcommittee and then they would go and meet and they'd have to have a separate, 433 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:35,080 uh, you know, posting of their meeting. Right. For them to meet, they would need a separate posting. 434 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,280 Okay. And it'd be through zoom. So I guess as Madison say, we're looking at, 435 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,400 it would probably be another month until that subcommittee can meet. 436 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,960 It wouldn't have to be another month. We would just, you know, have to set it up when 437 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,200 everybody's available to work everything out and then give at least 72 hours notice. 438 00:48:52,200 --> 00:49:00,280 Okay. Yeah. So, and thinking about it, what I may recommend is that two, actually two agenda items, 439 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,720 one would be the creation of the subcommittee, and then the two would be considered nominations 440 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:11,800 and appointments to that subcommittee. Um, is that, uh, something that everybody wants to do 441 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:19,720 for next meeting? Um, so does everybody agree they want to meet on July 30th and I'll, 442 00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:23,880 I'll work with Madison on getting the agenda together from what we've talked. Oh, go ahead, Don. 443 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:29,720 It seems like that we're making work. We really don't even have a problem. 444 00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:33,960 We're talking about subcommittees when we don't even know what the subcommittee wants to do. 445 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:42,280 And our group, our, the whole ethics board, you know, is a subcommittee going to be three people, 446 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:50,840 four people. It just doesn't seem like that it's essential for us to be able to even need 447 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,800 to do that now, not unless we have a problem. And I don't know of a problem that we have. 448 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:03,640 Um, I, I think that's a good point, Don. And, um, I, I like efficiency and not wasting everybody's, 449 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:08,680 well, not, I don't want to say wasting everybody's time. That, that sounds like flippant, but, um, 450 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:16,520 you know, not having good use of our time and resources for us in the city. Um, so I guess, um, 451 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:25,480 do you have anything else on that, Don? No. Okay. If you could mute yourself, if you wouldn't mind. 452 00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:32,120 Um, all right. Is there anybody else have anything they'd like to share on that issue, 453 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:39,400 on that, on this matter? And I'll ask Bob to, to, to unmute if you have anything to say. 454 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:51,000 Okay. Um, I'm unmuted. Uh, no, I think we've talked about it enough. And, uh, I think if, 455 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:57,480 uh, the attorney and, uh, you folks get together for a nice crisp agenda item, 456 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:05,400 we can make some progress. Um, Madison, did you really go ahead? Yeah, sorry. Um, 457 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:11,000 just so that I'm clear on, on y'all's direction, are we continuing to regularly schedule meetings 458 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:17,400 on the last Thursday of each month, or are we just going to call special meetings at the will 459 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:25,800 of the board? Um, I guess that's up to the board. Um, I guess I'd like to know from everybody. Maybe 460 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:32,040 you can just show your hand and we'll ask Rob, um, do you want to continue to have, uh, regularly 461 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:40,600 scheduled meetings instead of, uh, special meetings? Um, I see Annette's hand and Debra's 462 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:47,640 hand and Patricia's hand. Uh, Donna, are you raising your hand? Okay. All right. So I guess 463 00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:53,800 that's, uh, I, I, I want it, I would prefer that we do specially called meetings. Um, and I don't 464 00:51:53,800 --> 00:52:01,320 see Rob's hand. So I guess he goes for special. I was a little confused. So where you're asking us, 465 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:06,040 do we want to have regular meetings or are we raising our hands that we would have the special 466 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:12,200 meetings? Oh, I'm sorry. Raising your hand that you want regular meetings as in meetings scheduled 467 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:17,480 each month. Um, and I believe that's what Annette and Debra and Don raised their hand for. And 468 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:23,240 Patricia, did you raise your hand as well? Okay. Yeah. So they raised that. Um, I would say we do 469 00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:28,360 specially called meetings as needed, which might be every month, but just so that we don't have a 470 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:35,240 meeting every month when we don't necessarily need one. Um, so, uh, since four wanted, I'll just go 471 00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:42,600 ahead and, uh, uh, just go mute. Okay. And then, uh, Bob, if you have something to say, you can, 472 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:48,600 I think the, uh, I think the, it's already been decided because the majority has already voted in 473 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:56,200 favor. Um, okay. So Madison, yes, uh, we will continue the regularly scheduled meetings. Um, 474 00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:04,680 and, uh, I guess since we, since we've just voted to have the meeting for July, um, 475 00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:13,960 we will have the subcommittee, uh, issue, the subcommittee, um, issue on there, uh, whether we 476 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,840 want to start one and then I guess an agenda item of, of who would be on it. If there's anything 477 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:23,960 else, and of course there'll be like a minute, um, and probably the next meeting. Um, if there's 478 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:30,440 anything else that somebody wants an agenda, contact me and Madison as soon as possible so we can, um, 479 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:37,400 get that together. Uh, and there's one other meeting that we need to discuss on July 7th 480 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:44,840 at 3pm. We're going to have, we're going to have a panel. Um, council member Meltzer has asked for 481 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:52,600 an advisory opinion, um, on an issue that he had, he had sent to Madison. Um, so, uh, I would say, 482 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:57,400 Patricia, I'm not going to ask you to be on that panel because he, you are the one that is appointed 483 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:04,200 by Meltzer. Um, nobody else on the current board has been appointed by Meltzer. So I'd like to know, 484 00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:09,880 um, if, if everyone knows their availability July 7th or could quickly look at their calendar, 485 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:15,800 if they could say if they're available that day. Um, if you're not, if you know you're not, let us 486 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:21,960 know. Or if you need to get back to us, you can also let us know. But, um, let's see. So, 487 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:31,960 do you have a time? Uh, 3pm. Uh, yes, Madison? Oh, I was just pointing out that it was three. 488 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:38,840 Okay. Sorry. Uh, okay. So Ronnie's not here. Um, I am available and is needed. Don Carray, 489 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:45,000 do you know, uh, if you're available? Oh, I'm sorry. Let's, can we unmute Don? 490 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:57,480 Uh, I think, there we go. What time would the meeting be on Tuesday the 7th? Uh, 3pm. 3pm. 491 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:05,000 Yes. Would you be available? I could be available. Okay. Um, 492 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:12,920 all right. And Sharla's not here. And if you could mute again, Don, please. Uh, and by the way, 493 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:19,400 the, the meetings we, in the past, we have had the meetings after hours. But now since we're on 494 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:24,840 zoom in order to have the city's, uh, IT, we, we've got to do them during business hours, 495 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:30,440 which I know is not, um, you know, not always convenient when you have to work, but, um, 496 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:38,680 unfortunately that's the way it is. Um, yes, Rob? I'd be available as well. Okay. Um, all right. 497 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:46,920 And, um, Annetta, would you be available or not? Yes, I'd be available. Okay. Um, 498 00:55:49,240 --> 00:55:57,720 and Ron is not here. Uh, and Deborah, would you be available? Yes, I'd be available. 499 00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:06,600 And Bob on the phone, um, would you be available July 7th at 3pm? Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. 500 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:14,200 All right. Um, let's see. 501 00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:29,720 Okay. Um, Madison has also gotten me kind of the stats of, of, of who's been on panels. Um, I, 502 00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:36,760 and cause I don't think the ordinance gives us as far as who, who picks the panels. It's just that 503 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:42,520 the chair picks the panels. And then I really procedure say that we rotate the panels. Um, 504 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:47,560 and the ordinance says there has to be a, uh, you know, I think it was at least two or three 505 00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:52,840 attorneys on the board. And I like that for the panels to have an attorney is because some of what 506 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:58,600 a panel does is interpreting, um, the ordinance, which is pretty much interpreting statutes. Uh, 507 00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:06,920 so based on who's been on them and who has been on them last, uh, I, I would like the panel to be, 508 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:13,560 as long as everybody is still available, um, Annetta, uh, and, and actually, I guess, 509 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:18,360 I don't know if this is a question for Madison or Trey. Um, does it matter if people are alternates 510 00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:28,040 or not, or should we try to get non-alternate first, the panels? Oh, I'm sorry, Trey, you're 511 00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:34,840 muted. I don't know that we've ever, um, worried about that for the panels themselves. It's just, 512 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:41,080 you know, who would be available and who is so picked by the chair. Yeah, I believe that's true. 513 00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:46,200 Oh, and I just wanted to point out, Laura, we will have, um, special counsel at that 514 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:52,920 meeting as well, just so you're aware. Okay. Right. Related to related to that comment. Um, 515 00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:58,200 we still have a, uh, an agreement with the Borges law firm to be special counsel, um, 516 00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:05,800 specifically going forward. Um, we had, he has, uh, advised that we would, the, the new attorney 517 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:09,640 assigned to us to help us out with stuff like this would be a, an attorney by the name of Ian 518 00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:17,800 Stoosloff with his law firm. It will no longer be her proud. Um, uh, Mr. Stoos, Stoosloff as the 519 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:22,280 former general counsel of the Texas ethics commission. So we think it'll, he'll be a good 520 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:27,400 fit for the group and be helpful to advise when the city attorney's office is conflicted out. 521 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:35,720 Okay. Thank you very much. Um, okay. So since kind of all, since non-alternate don't matter, um, 522 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:43,720 Bob, if you're available, you have not been on a panel yet. Uh, so, uh, we'll put you and I was 523 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:52,200 going to nominate myself to be on that panel. So, um, July 7th, it will be myself, uh, Annetta and 524 00:58:52,200 --> 00:59:00,440 Bob on the panel. And, uh, we, Madison will be sending everybody the agenda and more on that. 525 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:07,960 Um, is there anything else about, so the July 7th panel meeting and the July 30th, uh, 526 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:13,960 regular scheduled meeting, is there anything else from anyone about the discussion on future meetings? 527 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:18,120 And I don't see anybody raising their hand. Oh, go ahead, Rob. 528 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:26,200 Just for protection sake, if when this July 7th comes, do you have provisions for an alternate 529 00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:30,920 to come in, in case one of you three cannot do it? Do you have to make that declaration now? 530 00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:38,360 Um, and I don't think we've ever done that before. I will say that Bob and Annetta is, 531 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:43,720 and myself, if anything changes, please let us know because you have to have all three people there. 532 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:55,640 Um, I think as long as Annetta, Bob, and myself are, um, let me and Madison know if they're not 533 00:59:55,640 --> 01:00:00,120 able to come, we can just switch. I think we can just switch somebody out even, you know, the day 534 01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:05,240 before. Well, I guess, I don't know, if it's on the agenda, I don't know. If it's on the agenda, 535 01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:10,280 people out. Typically, we've, I think we've listed the names of the people on the agenda. So, but I 536 01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:19,240 mean, up to, up to 72 hours in advance. Um, could we put a alternate person on the agenda? 537 01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:26,280 I don't see why not. Um, all right. Well, uh, let me see here. 538 01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:35,000 As far as, let's see, Don's been on a lot of them. Um, 539 01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:43,080 I guess, uh, Rob and Deborah, like y'all both have been on a couple, when y'all have y'all, 540 01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,280 who was on the last panel? Do y'all remember or were both, was it both of you? 541 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:50,120 It was both of us and she threw her shoe at me. 542 01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:00,840 I'll maybe, I'll, oh, go ahead, Madison. I actually have the answer. So the last panel 543 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:07,560 on August 15th of 2019 was Don Cartwright, Karen McDaniels and Rob Reiner. Okay. Um, 544 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:13,240 well, I don't, I don't know. I think it had two panels that day. 545 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:20,600 Oh, uh, I don't think so. Oh, but maybe, maybe was it the same panel? 546 01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:26,600 Like you had two, but it was the same group of people? No, we switched out because 547 01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,680 there were different people that were involved in the complaints. 548 01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:38,040 Sorry, one second. 549 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:47,800 Uh, well, Madison's looking that up. We'll just, we'll keep the panel as myself and 550 01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:53,320 Edda and Bob. If, um, if there's anything changes, let me and Madison know as soon as 551 01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:59,720 possible. And, um, we can just change that beforehand and maybe we can confirm with 552 01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,480 everybody, uh, you know, a little bit more than 72 hours in advance to make sure 553 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:08,280 and Edda, Bob and I can be there. Um, go Madison, do you have the answer? 554 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:13,800 Yeah. So on, in, on August 15th, there was only one panel. There was a day when we had 555 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:24,280 two panels in March of 2019, um, for two, for ethics complaints. So unless it's not 556 01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:32,360 in the minutes. So yes. All right. Uh, okay. If there's nothing else, um, 557 01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,600 is there anything else about future board meetings? And if Bob has anything to say, 558 01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:42,680 he can unmute as well since I can't see him. So raise his hand. Okay. All right. I 559 01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:48,040 think we've covered everything. Um, oh, do you have something to say, Bob? Is 560 01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:53,400 that good? I want to thank Madison for the paper. It's the best paperwork we've 561 01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:58,280 ever had for any of these meetings. I love Ms. Snodgrass, but you have really 562 01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:02,840 done a good job on this. Thank you. I would like to second that and commend 563 01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:06,760 Madison because she made, uh, life really easy putting the, this together 564 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:12,120 and the PDF she put on with the hyperlinks was really, uh, a great job. 565 01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:18,200 I've been, it's been a pleasure to work with her. So, um, okay. All right. Well, 566 01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:23,400 I guess I will adjourn the meeting and I'll see some of you July 7th 567 01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:29,240 and everybody July 30th. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.