1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:17,520 good morning like to call the what is it the June 5th no June 10th being of the civil service 2 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:25,920 commission to order first order of business is to introduce guests and as we've done in 3 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,600 the past and most of you've been here before you're the stars you're not the guest today 4 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:40,760 so I see no one that's signed up to do public comments so we'll move on to the next order 5 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:47,920 business which is to approve the minutes of the May 27th meeting commissioners you have 6 00:00:47,920 --> 00:01:00,520 those you've got those in your packets I move that we approve the minutes as presented any 7 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:09,560 corrections comments 8 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:24,840 seeing none all in favor of approval the minutes of the May 27th meeting say aye opposed alright 9 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:30,720 next order of business is to take action on the eligibility list from the fire department 10 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:43,160 driver promotional exams they have the information in your packets I would entertain a motion 11 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:59,480 that we accept the eligibility list for the promotion not for the driver test so moved 12 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:08,520 and seconded there any questions discussion hearing none all in favor of accepting the 13 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:28,160 promotional lists say aye opposed next order of business is the appealed questions the 14 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:35,320 agenda my agenda says that commissioners here was here was the question that I had earlier 15 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:41,680 this morning and was cleared to me the the agenda says the captain's appeals and then 16 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:49,120 the battalion chief appeals they were all presented to us in numerical order four of 17 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:58,360 those questions four of those 20 questions were battalion chief questions the other 16 18 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:04,040 were captain's questions but they were presented to us in numerical order so we've looked at 19 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:13,560 all of them I would entertain a motion that we look at the since there's only four battalion 20 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:19,800 chief questions I would entertain a motion that we hopefully can dispense of those battalion 21 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,600 chief questions quickly so I would entertain a motion that we pull out the four battalion 22 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:34,600 chief questions and tackle those first and then go to the captain's questions 23 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:39,760 commissioner Prado I'm fine with that I don't mind so I can make a motion that we pull those 24 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:50,640 four out and tackle those first I'll second that motion okay any discussion just FYI those 25 00:03:50,640 --> 00:04:10,640 questions are number 15 34 47 and 70 70 now that being done I have to catch up 26 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:35,640 there and then I'll go to the captain's questions commissioner Prado I'm fine with that I don't 27 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:45,560 mind I would say talk among yourselves but since you're not anywhere to talk to anybody 28 00:04:45,560 --> 00:05:13,160 don't talk to yourselves did you have them did you separate them there we go 34 all right 29 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:20,080 sorry I didn't know if we were going to pass that or not so I didn't pull them out and 30 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:28,080 look for them the other way all right so just a reminder to the appellants first thank you 31 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:35,040 all for taking the time and the energy that it took you to study for the test to take 32 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:43,720 the test and and now to have come back in and appeal your your the decisions and talk 33 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:53,320 with it so we do appreciate that just as a reminder I want everyone to have a feeling 34 00:05:53,320 --> 00:06:01,480 that when when you quote walk out the door that you have had a chance to at least express 35 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:12,560 your concerns your your appeal motion but on the other hand we don't need extra superfluous 36 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:19,040 into information we certainly don't need repetitive information so that way we'll get out of here 37 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:26,480 before next Tuesday so which I think you probably all appreciate so moving forward you've all 38 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:31,360 done this before you'd all of these all look like familiar faces I've seen I've seen most 39 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:41,960 of you before so first question is question 15 and that would be mr. Britain mr. Britain 40 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:55,680 there you are I have to find you on my screen can you hear me now thank you all for for 41 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:03,160 doing all this I know that this is a pretty high paying job for you guys but really don't 42 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,280 have a whole lot to add other than I give them what I wrote other than you know usually 43 00:07:08,280 --> 00:07:13,640 you have a whole bunch of books on a study list that cover various subjects still related 44 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:18,960 to the fire service the the difficult thing about this particular test was that three 45 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:24,280 of the books were all over the same subject it was all fire service management at the 46 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:32,440 executive level and even two of them had a different author at least one author for each 47 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:39,040 chapter so that the chances for there be conflicting information was very high and I'm surprised 48 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:45,400 there's not a greater number of appeals for us to cover but I just wanted to point that 49 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:51,360 out and that's kind of where I was coming from that these books are very similar yet 50 00:07:51,360 --> 00:08:00,600 different people writing them with different opinions that's all I have okay questions 51 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:16,880 of the appellant from the commissioners I don't really have a question I just wanted 52 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:26,400 to is it possible to make a comment mr. chair yes depends on what the comment is but yes 53 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:33,720 I just want once again I just want to salute all the the appellants for their their level 54 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:41,840 of training and scholarship and the effort they put into this test as a commissioner 55 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:48,200 I don't deal with this stuff every day and but I do my best to try and put myself in 56 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,760 your shoes and also in the department shoes so when we make these decisions we're not 57 00:08:53,760 --> 00:09:01,760 doing it carelessly and we just wanted to acknowledge your scholarship and your hard 58 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:07,360 work and we struggle with it probably not as much as you but we we struggle with it 59 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:13,520 nonetheless and so I just wanted to to tip my hat to to all of you that that are under 60 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:24,400 this process my question is about the question so when you guys are taking the test does 61 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:30,320 it tell you what source you're supposed to be pulling information from or do you just 62 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:38,080 it does from that it does to the specific question I believe it said something at the 63 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,720 beginning of the test like these first 25 questions are come from this book and then 64 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,720 whenever it changed the source material then you take it for ours for our test since it 65 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:54,320 was forced books it was you know kind of a no-brainer is 25 25 between from each each 66 00:09:54,320 --> 00:10:02,440 source material but it's still like I put in my my appeal it's it's a pretty difficult 67 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:07,360 it's difficult enough whenever you got books of they're covering different subjects like 68 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:12,400 a rescue book or a safety book or a company officer book there's going to be some overlap 69 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:18,120 there but but all three of these books were 100% overlap some of us some of the chapters 70 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,200 even have the same title and they're just written by different people different leaders 71 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:29,520 in the fire service one of them incidentally being uh being chief palsgrove was a contributing 72 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:37,160 author but uh to one of the books but um the fire chief the fire chief handbook was one 73 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:43,360 of the books y'all had to study for this test I'm sorry the fire chief's handbook was one 74 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,120 of the books that you have to study first yes fire chief's handbook and then managing 75 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:57,240 fire emergency services and then uh fire fire service management okay they're all the titles 76 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:07,120 are even so similar it's hard to remember the okay any other comments for the for the 77 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:18,080 appellant fire your response we vote to sustain the key based on the mutually agreed upon 78 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,060 rules for the appeals this appeal is invalid since it states material out of a different 79 00:11:22,060 --> 00:11:30,560 book other than the book that the question was taken from 80 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:31,840 commissioners questions of fire 81 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:42,840 yeah I felt I feel really uncomfortable just like I did last time I really don't like that 82 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,200 we're making people memorize one-liners from books and then holding them accountable for 83 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:53,360 that um I especially I understand what the the fire department's saying about sustaining 84 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:58,880 the key because it was taken from another book but if it's if if his answer if d is 85 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,840 justified in another book that he actually had to study then I think we need to look 86 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:09,280 at that I think we need to because it's not like he pulled it from some book that he was 87 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,920 reading for pleasure and he's justifying it based on opinion it came directly from another 88 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:21,820 book even though the title on the 25 questions here you know is like I don't understand how 89 00:12:21,820 --> 00:12:28,600 how we can hold people to that 90 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:29,840 is that a question for me commissioner 91 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:35,540 well it's a question and a comment so my I guess the question the comment part is how 92 00:12:35,540 --> 00:12:40,420 uncomfortable I feel with with with making people memorize one-liners and then justifying 93 00:12:40,420 --> 00:12:46,560 it that it's just not in the book that my second my question question is is d an appropriate 94 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:49,360 answer if it was taken from the fire chief's handbook 95 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:55,080 no because we asked for it specifically from the other book 96 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:02,440 no that's not my question my question is is is d justify all the it's is it in the book 97 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:08,960 is it in this other book whether you ask for it or not is d is d a good answer quoted from 98 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:14,280 this book understand what you're asking commissioner but we asked that question of the information 99 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,840 and the other book and that is the expectation of the fire department that you know the information 100 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:19,840 from one book from another 101 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:29,800 okay and why what's the justification behind that of knowing different answers from this 102 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,640 for the same question from different source materials 103 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:42,600 I think that the overall answer would be this if with any industry whether it be the fire 104 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:49,800 service education whatever it is there is tons of information tons of authors all kinds 105 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:55,520 of all relating to the same subject material and so I might need to know that this book 106 00:13:55,520 --> 00:14:00,200 over here says this and this book over here says this and I need to know the difference 107 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:05,940 between the two 108 00:14:05,940 --> 00:14:12,440 because it's not one author says this may be true for them and another author says this 109 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:18,840 may be true in that situation we've got to know the difference between the two 110 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,840 not every book in education is going to say the same thing on the same topic correct 111 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:30,560 I'm sure but I can justify my answer if I'm looking at theories or if I'm looking at development 112 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,080 or pedagogy I could justify it and make an argument for the next 113 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,080 sure 114 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:39,160 commissioner I think that commissioner Prado this is this is basically I think what our 115 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:46,160 next meeting that the part of our next meeting agenda that's already set is to make this 116 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:53,000 discussion about exactly the discussion that you're asking there's been a long-standing 117 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:59,640 discussion but we need to we need to talk about that again and that's what our agenda 118 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:07,320 for the next meeting is along with approval of the lists so I but I do agree that the 119 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:16,840 question needs the the fire need the fire needs to address the question of the content 120 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:22,920 and the concepts not necessarily just because the same thing wasn't said and was said and 121 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:28,360 another book if what was said in the other book is is valid in the question then I think 122 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,760 we have an issue but but that's what this discussion is for our next agenda meeting 123 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:42,960 and so if we'd be but we'll be bogged down forever today if we if we right now Davis 124 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:52,280 they've studied for this test knowing that answer needs to come verbatim from the book 125 00:15:52,280 --> 00:16:00,000 that that's been designated so I think we probably need to move on 126 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:10,560 I do have a question of officer is it Britain Britain yes sir Britain so when you were preparing 127 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:19,400 for the test was it your understanding that you were going to be responsible for memorizing 128 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:26,800 specific information was that your understanding rather than necessarily I hate to say this 129 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:37,320 using your best judgment I wasn't yes and no I guess is I'd heard that and and I read 130 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,840 through some of the rules but I've been a been a captain for 19 years and I haven't 131 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:48,760 been taking these emotional exams for quite some time so I wasn't intimately familiar 132 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:54,600 with what was going on and even even though I heard all this I still I still disagree 133 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,960 with it I know in years past back whenever I was taking drivers test captain's test and 134 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:05,760 promoting up there was a whole lot of questions you know like I said this is 20 years ago 135 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:11,240 there's a lot of questions overturned back then just by quoting a book that wasn't on 136 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:16,000 study material and I agree with that that should never be done but this is a book that 137 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,640 I was I was charged with studying it was on the list and we're taught over and over and 138 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,760 over and I've taught as a as a company officer over and over and over that you have as many 139 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,400 tools in the toolbox as you can and then you use them it doesn't matter but doesn't matter 140 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,480 if you know who it came from just matters that you know the tools and that you know 141 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,440 you have a bunch of them to use from and you use them in the appropriate time and uh and 142 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:46,920 that I knew one is why I kind of phrased the appeal the way I did because I knew that that 143 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,640 was the expectation or I'd heard that that was the expectation but I just still wanted 144 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,240 to appeal it because I disagree with with us being held to that standard I think it's 145 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,560 counterproductive and that this whole process should be at some point about learning something 146 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:15,880 and not just being able to memorize something thank you yes sir 147 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:16,880 I'm ready mr chair 148 00:18:45,880 --> 00:19:13,480 we're having a discussion as to what the local rules actually say so everybody just hang 149 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:23,800 tight for a second thank you so I wasn't ignoring you commissioner bains you you would 150 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:38,440 never ignore me sir I know and while we're waiting I will officially congratulate you 151 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:47,000 on your wedding anniversary last week oh thank you so much now it's in the public record 152 00:19:47,000 --> 00:20:12,240 and on television too 153 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:41,360 thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here. 154 00:20:42,240 --> 00:21:00,720 Thank you so much. 155 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:27,960 I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so 156 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:54,720 thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to 157 00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:15,120 be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 158 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:36,120 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 159 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:57,680 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 160 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:04,680 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 161 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:15,080 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 162 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:24,400 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 163 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:33,520 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 164 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:49,320 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 165 00:23:49,320 --> 00:24:00,720 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 166 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:13,120 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 167 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:27,360 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 168 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:47,160 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 169 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:55,960 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 170 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:02,720 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 171 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:14,640 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 172 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:23,480 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 173 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:30,320 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 174 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:37,800 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 175 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:49,320 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 176 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:58,240 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 177 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:08,360 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 178 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:16,600 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 179 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:26,920 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 180 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:32,120 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 181 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:37,680 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 182 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,360 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 183 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:48,760 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 184 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,880 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 185 00:26:53,880 --> 00:27:03,520 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 186 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:09,760 to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy to be here thank you so much sir I'm so happy 187 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,360 really fast because I'm sure a lot of you would be like they were last time so we just 188 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:19,080 have to be consistent if we're gonna go just with the with the quoted material and it has 189 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,200 to be from the exact look that they said then let's just hold the key to all of them because 190 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,440 that's not fair that on some of them someone has a more persuasive answer or justification 191 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:34,440 you know and on some we don't I agree that's what I was sitting here thinking if we change 192 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,420 things now that changes everything that the way we've looked at material for this appeal 193 00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:49,880 process for today it really kind of changes the whole the whole thing for right now so 194 00:27:49,880 --> 00:28:01,840 I and miss Lang's interpretation of it being from the actual book that's given in the in 195 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:08,700 the test material should become for for at least for today's business that should be 196 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:16,920 the rule that we use it has to come from the book not the list of quoted material just 197 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:22,560 I mean I think again we if not we're gonna be here till the next meeting because I don't 198 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,720 know how we get I don't know how we would answer this because it's an interpretation 199 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:35,000 we need to we need to work on the language at least to suggest a language change perhaps 200 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:42,360 perhaps need to do that but we need to do that at a later meeting not today all right 201 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:48,000 we okay with that I'm okay with that okay I would entertain a motion on does anyone 202 00:28:48,000 --> 00:29:00,400 like to speak in opposition to the appeal jet where is he there he is hi Jeff unmute 203 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:08,640 yourself hear me now yes sir I apologize you said in opposition to material I hit I raised 204 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:14,880 my hand that time I just I'm not in the battalion chief when I'm in the captain's one but I 205 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:21,000 did set through the entire driver appeals I just wanted to comment you're making a departure 206 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:27,620 from what you've established when you make this rule today that you're basically saying 207 00:29:27,620 --> 00:29:32,480 one source materials more authoritative than the other simply because that question came 208 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,620 from that book and I think you have to look at it as all source material in the broader 209 00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:45,800 sense because as one of the commissioners stated your all of these quote something off 210 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,080 another page other than where the answer come from most of these appeals we're going to 211 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:56,960 handcuff ourselves and I don't I believe they're all equally authoritative not one over the 212 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,120 other just because that's where the question came from I think that's where we wind up 213 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:07,200 whenever we bring that scope down to just that one page just that one sentence possibly 214 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,360 on an appeal and we're going to run head on into that today because I've already seen 215 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:21,680 somebody accept you the answers I just want to throw that out there okay I appreciate 216 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,600 that Jeff but that's not a rule that we're making today we actually don't like that rule 217 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,560 we want to change that rule what I'm saying is that if it's actually written and it is 218 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,640 already a rule we can't change it in the middle of the fields I agree with everything you're 219 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,480 saying and so just like we're gonna have to hold the key because that's the rule then 220 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,400 I mean the fire department's gonna have to do the same because I know that at the last 221 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,920 meeting there was maybe one or two that we we got persuaded and we switched and you know 222 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,280 the other ones we did it and so I just want to be consistent and fair for everyone and 223 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:56,560 then once we meet next month then we do need to change this we need and we need y'all's 224 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:04,520 input because I don't think it's good I mean even in even in masters program you know the 225 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:10,280 tests are comprehensive they're cumulative you know it's not just from this one book 226 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:16,360 so we need to look at that definitely absolutely that's an argument I've been making for what 227 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:24,040 15 years now so we need to discuss that so thank you Jeff for your for your comments 228 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:31,000 yes sir I would entertain if no one likes what wants to speak yes just one more thing 229 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:43,880 that I just noticed it looks like there was in the fire meeting confer agreement and subsequently 230 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:51,960 there after that was approved on September 24th 2019 there was a section that state that 231 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,760 stated that appeals to the commission under section 143.03 for the Texas local government 232 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:02,880 code should be limited to the quoted source material attribute attributable to the reference 233 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:10,280 examination question so it looks like in the recent meeting confer agreement that was looked 234 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:19,160 at and decided upon so I do have revisions pending right now with the our local rules 235 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:24,120 that has that particular language in there based on the approved meeting confer agreement 236 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:38,280 on September 24th of 2019 so I think that resolves the question that you all had limited 237 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:44,880 to the quoted reference material yeah attributable to the examination the reference examination 238 00:32:44,880 --> 00:33:00,560 question attributable reference yes and that's 143.0.034 that's what they reference in in 239 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:07,920 regard to the Texas local government code thank you though you're welcome just to clarify 240 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,800 that was an agreement that came upon with the union and the departmental meeting together 241 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:21,920 and coming to that conclusion and writing that into that contract and miss Lang that 242 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:29,920 came from the meet and confer yes agreement yes that was approved by council on September 243 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:36,320 24th of 2019 which basically just clarified for the commissioners you may already know 244 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:43,440 this and I apologize if you do we have no we have nothing to do with that right we are 245 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:51,520 not involved in that process at all so they made that decision for us but we have to abide 246 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:57,360 by that decision we have to abide by it but we don't we had no no yeah we have no say 247 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:08,260 in that in that meeting confer process right right all right anyone anyone like to speak 248 00:34:08,260 --> 00:34:20,320 in opposition I would entertain a motion on question 15 I move that we sustain the the 249 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:36,520 code sustain the key excuse me I'll second that discussion I understand what y'all just 250 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:42,920 wrote on that on that meet and confer but then I really don't see what the need is for 251 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:50,320 us to review questions the department can just hold the key but I don't need I don't 252 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:55,240 understand the need for a commission to look at each question if we're just supposed to 253 00:34:55,240 --> 00:35:01,560 hold the key from the quoted source material but that's my own reservation and based on 254 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:12,720 how the rules are I mean I'm fine with that but I don't agree all in favor of the motion 255 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:35,640 say aye aye opposed all right motion passes two to one two to two to zero with an abstention 256 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:51,880 sorry said that wrong question 34 34 Mr. Hornback see him here am I missing him okay question 257 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:59,880 for 34 is the taken from the fire chief's handbook chief fire chief firefighters job 258 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:06,800 description has changed significantly specifically since the 1960s with the fire service capacity 259 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,720 for rapid emergency response functions have expanded to include all the following except 260 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:17,440 fire suppression emergency medical service hazardous materials response technical rescue 261 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:24,680 high angle trench structural collapse dive team swift water rescue the keyed answer is 262 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:32,800 a fire suppression the appeal says that the question is faulty there's no correct answer 263 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,760 question implies that fire service functions based on the keyed answer no longer includes 264 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:43,240 fire suppression fire suppression is still a primary function even with expanded function 265 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:49,380 fire suppression is still included functions have expanded to include answers bc and d 266 00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:58,560 but also includes fire suppression there are no correct answers to this question since 267 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:07,800 I'm reading it and we have no appellant fire response sustain the key fire suppression 268 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,000 has always been part of the fire service therefore the fire suppression is the exception in the 269 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,120 list of answers given all other answers have been incorporated since 1960 as listed on 270 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:29,840 page 396 commissioners question of fire I had difficulty with this question I felt it 271 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:42,880 was it was not worded properly it was confusing hey this is what this is what I mean so it 272 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:49,520 says logically we're not asking them to use logically we're asking them to quote the book 273 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:59,640 so on page 396 I'm not seeing fire suppression on here am I am I looking in the wrong spot 274 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:05,840 I didn't see it either so then we can't say logically because Mr. Britton would have logically 275 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:11,200 assumed that the other question from the other book so we can't go back and forth so if it's 276 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:17,680 not on the page then I don't sustain the key well what I'm sorry ma'am I thought that was 277 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:25,240 a question for me sir go ahead go ahead if I was just going to say that if it's not there 278 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:29,960 the question is asking for the exception on the list and therefore the fact that it's 279 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:39,120 not there it is the exception but your justification you're saying fire suppression has always been 280 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:47,320 part of the let me go back and reread this question but it hasn't changed significantly 281 00:38:47,320 --> 00:39:03,680 that's the I think I read it about five or six or so times and I was still confused so 282 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:09,760 it was it was difficult fire suppression has always been part of the fire service therefore 283 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:27,360 fire suppression is the exception in the list of answers given 284 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:33,520 that's worded way different so the it is part but because it's not on the list it's the 285 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:39,680 when it's the exception because it's logical because it's always been there it hasn't 286 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:46,480 changed since the 1960s I don't disagree with your with your assessment of the question 287 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:53,120 but that's the that's I think that's the fire logic is that it's not there because it hasn't 288 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:58,680 changed it's the exception because it hasn't changed since the 60s all these other things 289 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:05,840 have come in since the 60s I'm sadly enough I can remember the 60s and we didn't have 290 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:17,760 EMS that much or has met or in the or any of the others so that's the logic I think 291 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:25,040 I think we need to send fire a question that it's not a good question Chief Skipper are 292 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:47,600 we getting that it's not a good question but I understand where they're coming from 293 00:40:47,600 --> 00:41:05,080 further discussion so Commissioner Prado are you okay with sustaining the key functions 294 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:16,520 have expanded to include all following except yeah because what you guys are saying is logically 295 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:21,480 it would be included because it always has been that just hasn't been updated because 296 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:28,400 it always has been is that my understanding that right I'm curious to see what if anyone 297 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:37,680 is speaking for or against the appeal of any other appellants I was that was my that was 298 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:49,400 where I was going next but anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal 299 00:41:49,400 --> 00:42:01,400 seeing hearing no one that we have anyone okay I make the motion that we sustain the 300 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:08,360 key with the understanding this is not a good question I realize that's a that's a compound 301 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:21,120 that's a compound statement but nonetheless that's how I feel I'll second it any further 302 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,440 discussion I think these are important so whenever people appeal I think it's really 303 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,760 important that they show up because if this person was here I mean I think we could make 304 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,160 a really good argument to throw out the question but since Melon's here to speak on behalf 305 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:47,840 of the question then I mean I guess I'm forced to sustain the key as well 306 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:55,200 just FYI throwing out the question is not an option yes based on the the recent meeting 307 00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:00,720 confer agreement throwing out the question is not an option we could accept all the answers 308 00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:09,200 and give everybody but we can't throw the question now so where are we motion is to 309 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:21,840 sustain the key all in favor say aye opposed hearing none and we thought this was going 310 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:34,800 to go quickly next is question 47 mr. Boozer I saw you somewhere you keep jumping there 311 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:41,160 you are keep jumping around on my screen and it's not your fault it's a zoom zoom problem 312 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:51,800 so all righty question 47 the morning I'll try to keep this quick and short I based my 313 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:57,240 if you'll hope you guys have the test question in front of you but along with the answers 314 00:43:57,240 --> 00:44:03,800 if you'll look at the answers to that test question it really has no bearing on the content 315 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:12,020 of the material to try to remember whether something is most likely likely unlikely or 316 00:44:12,020 --> 00:44:19,240 somewhat likely as a test question answer to me doesn't really have any bearing on the 317 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:29,480 knowledge content that I was required to remember you know I don't know anything else other 318 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:37,200 than what my statement on on my appeal was to try to convince you that I just I feel 319 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:42,440 like that to have an expectation that I'm supposed to remember whether something is 320 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:58,880 more likely most likely unlikely or somewhat likely is a little bit much okay questions 321 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:13,360 of the appellant and the justification from the department says the magic words direct 322 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:19,560 wording from the books so there's not much discussion for that okay well you jumped 323 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:26,720 the gun a little bit but that's all right um five response is direct wording from the 324 00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:33,200 book we vote to sustain the key and I can read the rest of this if you like answer b 325 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,160 and first most firefighters will encounter the unexpected at some time in their career 326 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:46,560 answers a and d places doubt whether it will ever happen or not 327 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:55,600 question of fire I have no questions of fire anyone like to speak in opposition to the 328 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,960 appeal I'm sorry Lillian did you have okay anyone like to speak in opposition to the 329 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:13,560 appeal I would entertain a motion on question 30 those question 47 this is say that again 330 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:20,560 John you broke up I'm sorry I moved to sustain the key okay sorry about that when your fault 331 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:41,380 is there a second I'll second it just for just for discussion discussion I have no discussion 332 00:46:41,380 --> 00:46:53,880 all in favor of sustaining the key to 47 say aye aye by the way Mr. Boozer the only thing 333 00:46:53,880 --> 00:47:02,500 I would say to answer your to your concern besides the techniques of the question itself 334 00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:08,480 is that that sometimes gives you some opportunity to plan if you know that that it's very likely 335 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,160 that you're going to run into something you plan accordingly that would be the only thing 336 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:18,720 that when I dug through this I can make came up with that myself it's just a planning thing 337 00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:24,400 in your own mind to be ready for it so but or or go talk to your union and tell them 338 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:31,760 that you want those rules change in the meeting confer because I honestly I'm feeling a little 339 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:38,380 frustrated and I feel a little useless because I'm not I'm being asked to do the exact thing 340 00:47:38,380 --> 00:47:43,360 that you guys are asked to do is to memorize and to not think and so on all of these appeals 341 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,880 I'm being asked just to sustain the key because those are what the rules are and we have to 342 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,440 do that but I'm not using my brain I'm just agreeing with what's already been stated and 343 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,640 so what I would say is if enough of you would go and talk to you tell them you want about 344 00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:08,280 you want that changed okay question 70 mr. Boozer you're back on again you haven't moved 345 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:23,080 this time you're right there thank you I can't really other than you know the fact that you 346 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:28,360 yourself chairman Ramsey said that the source material should be quoted verbatim from the 347 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:37,560 book to simply ask a question that entails all of the following except and to change 348 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:45,240 a single word in the correct answer validate invalidates the test question in my opinion 349 00:48:45,240 --> 00:49:00,320 because the answer is not verbatim from the book 350 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:10,440 questions of the appellant I have no questions of the appellant 351 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:16,080 I'm gonna I don't really have a question mr. Boozer I do have a comment though when you're 352 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:24,040 writing a test sometimes you have to mean the idea of changing something is what gives 353 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:30,560 it a test question and gives it that except answer I mean there are there would be no 354 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:37,440 question to be asked if there were if it all was exactly like it came from the book that's 355 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:44,080 where you you find that's where you find the finite differences to make the exceptions 356 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:50,900 now I mean that's a that's a test question testing phenomenon not I agree with you that 357 00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:55,040 it's not in the book but the reason it's not in the book is that that's what was changed 358 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,400 in order to make the question out of it so I don't know if that makes any sense or not 359 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:06,440 but you you have to change something in order to get a question and that's the the discrimination 360 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:16,760 that needs to be made so all right fire but to sustain the key all the answers are taken 361 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:22,480 directly from the text and yes the word no was taken out of the answer on a to make it 362 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:37,320 a false statement questions of fire hearing none anyone like to speak in opposition to 363 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:50,880 the appeal seeing no one all in favor the motion is to sustain the key on question 70 364 00:50:50,880 --> 00:51:02,620 all in favor say aye aye sorry I thought mr. Baines did did you make a motion I did not 365 00:51:02,620 --> 00:51:08,360 make a motion oh I'm sorry okay and what we did we get the motion so I make a motion that 366 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:14,680 we sustain I apologize I thought we I thought that was I just heard that in my head so all 367 00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:29,560 right their second all in favor say in discussion no discussion all in favor say aye aye opposed 368 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:42,160 okay those are the four battalion chief questions so we can dismiss them again before before 369 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:51,560 you guys go guy where I'll say this again for the captain so so don't listen but I do 370 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:58,600 appreciate the time that you put in the effort that you put in to do the study to try to 371 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:06,240 make yourself better to make us better and so it is more appreciated than you probably 372 00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:14,320 feel that feel right now but it truly is appreciated and thank you for doing what you do for us 373 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:24,920 so thank you all right next order of business on the agenda is to address the captain's 374 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:54,080 appeals so back to the beginning here with mr. Roselle okay oh okay unmute yourself 375 00:52:54,080 --> 00:53:03,160 there you are I'm sitting here with Greg Johnson so I just put both of our names up okay if 376 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:10,440 that helps I appreciate you guys' time thank you so much I know this is a tough job for 377 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:19,840 you guys my question involves the definition of standards is there any way I can have the 378 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:27,320 question read we don't have the questions on our end sure question one says blank serve 379 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:36,180 to regulate an approach system or topic for which they are written blank serve to regulate 380 00:53:36,180 --> 00:53:45,280 an approach system or topic for which they are written the answers are codes guides regulations 381 00:53:45,280 --> 00:54:01,120 and standards codes guides regulations standards the key dancer is a yeah thank you I appreciate 382 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:06,400 that my appeal has to do excuse me with the the definition of standard and how similar 383 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:15,880 it is to the definition of code just from the the book the definition of standard actually 384 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:22,600 includes more than was in the test answer to include standards to have the effect of 385 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:27,240 law a standard must be adopted by an authority with the legal responsibility to enact the 386 00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:33,240 standard is law the definition of definition of code is a work of law established or adopted 387 00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:43,120 by rulemaking authority so my argument is if and when a authority establishes a standard 388 00:54:43,120 --> 00:55:02,900 it becomes a code and at that point the two terms are interchangeable and it becomes semantics 389 00:55:02,900 --> 00:55:18,800 questions of the appellant I have a question of fire fire responses are there any questions 390 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:27,640 to for the appellant okay now fire response but to sustain the key this is a verbatim 391 00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:31,680 definition in the book three out of the four answers codes regulations and standards are 392 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:36,040 interrelated yet very different this is why it is important to know the differences the 393 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:41,120 keyed answer is the definition of codes in the book specifically a code is a regulatory 394 00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:54,800 approach while standard is more of a measurement my question fire my question of fire is this 395 00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:03,600 you know it has to be a reason you want them to make this distinction and could you elaborate 396 00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:12,560 on that reason why you want them to make this distinction I mean you asked me if you asked 397 00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:18,560 me to learn this I'm learning it for a reason so could you elaborate a little bit on why 398 00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:25,120 you want them to to have this kind of distinction standards and codes are very close but they 399 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:31,640 are different words so they are different words so a code once it becomes law is law 400 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,920 a standard may be something that we use to measure how well we're doing but it's not 401 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:44,200 necessarily a law one could put me a live lively on a civil in a civil way and one could 402 00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:51,560 put me lively in a more criminal way so codes are law and standards are something that we 403 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,720 should strive for and to meet but not necessarily hold the weight of law and we should know 404 00:56:56,720 --> 00:57:12,800 the difference between those two things thank you other questions of fire 405 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:24,040 would like to speak in opposition to the appeal I would entertain a motion on question one 406 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:49,400 I move that we sustain the code a key the code the key it's all right second discussion 407 00:57:49,400 --> 00:58:14,600 all in favor say aye opposed passes to sustain the key you changed on me next Mr. Johnson 408 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:23,880 your turn question three good morning guys again for being here like everybody else mentioned 409 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:28,280 like Mr. Roselle said can I have you guys read the question for me one more time since 410 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:38,080 we don't have it on our end sure hang on just one second so you've seen it before we hadn't 411 00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:43,920 so but I do have it I'm just giving you our time there so finding the book page the reference 412 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:52,080 all right the question says with regard to environmental integrity blank is the ISOs foundation 413 00:58:52,080 --> 00:59:00,400 for making effective judgments on environmental integrity the answers are judging let me read 414 00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:07,700 it again with regard to environmental integrity blank is the ISOs foundation for making effective 415 00:59:07,700 --> 00:59:17,040 judgments on environmental integrity a judging the rate of change B defining physical surroundings 416 00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:28,120 C recognizing resource needs D determining rescue profile the keyed answer is a judging 417 00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:38,840 the rate of change okay thank you for that I appreciate it so as I wrote in my appeal 418 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:45,640 the book does talk about judging the rate of change but my pill stems from to judge 419 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:50,040 the rate of change in something you have to know what that something is you can't judge 420 00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:55,520 the rate of change in something you're not you're not trying to figure out what that 421 00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:02,640 change is going to be in so I based my appeal off the fact that page 177 it says environmental 422 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:08,680 integrity can be defined as the status of the building conditions and hazards in terms 423 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:18,680 of stability which is change potential and time rate of change so determining the hazards 424 01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:23,440 in terms of stability those would be all those physical surroundings that you're trying to 425 01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:30,560 determine if they're changing or not also on page 195 it says recall that the passage 426 01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:36,720 of time is a factor when judging integrity not the factor it's a factor the integrity 427 01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:44,480 listed is referring to environmental integrity both of these passages where I pulled from 428 01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:49,840 in the quoted source material are talking about environmental integrity so the words 429 01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:56,920 and an a in these two passages that I brought up indicate there are multiple factors to 430 01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:01,440 consider concerning the environmental integrity and the other one out of the answer choice 431 01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:07,240 is that it specifically talks about is the physical surroundings on page 195 talking 432 01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:13,200 about environmental integrity involves a consideration of factors such as weather smoke flame spread 433 01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:17,960 and hazardous energy all of those things are your physical surroundings and you have to 434 01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:23,100 know what those things are to then be able to judge the rate of change in them that's 435 01:01:23,100 --> 01:01:43,280 where I come from on this appeal okay questions of the appellant 436 01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:51,080 none fire response I did have a question excuse me okay I'm sorry a little slow and your name 437 01:01:51,080 --> 01:02:00,200 again sir is mr. Johnson Greg Johnson okay mr. Johnson thank you very much so in your 438 01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:06,440 preparation for this examination was it your understanding that you had specific answers 439 01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:13,000 that needed to be looked for and then given was that your understanding 440 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:18,240 the understanding that I had of any promotional test I've ever taken is that the source material 441 01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:22,600 that we're given we need to be able to quote anything up to and including the copyright 442 01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:28,240 date on that material so we can be tested out of anything it doesn't give specific page 443 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:34,840 ranges it doesn't give anything other than just a book we're supposed to read so yes 444 01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:39,000 we're supposed to know the material but it's not defined to one section in the book if 445 01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:44,160 it's out of the same source material we should be able to go through the book and pull multiple 446 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:51,440 references to make our decision and then let me let me let me ask a leading question this 447 01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:58,400 may not be very popular but eventually you know the department has to set a standard 448 01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:05,440 would you not agree that's correct okay and so apparently there's been a standard set 449 01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:11,840 that says this is what we're looking for and and your answer was not necessarily what they 450 01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:19,600 were looking for so I guess my thing I'm trying to say is that while I would love to give 451 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:25,560 everybody the benefit of the doubt the department has something specifically they're looking 452 01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:30,320 for and that's one of the responsibilities of the department is to define things and 453 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:36,240 apparently your answer did not match what they were looking for it wasn't a bad answer 454 01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:40,480 I mean it was a very very good answer and a well presented answer but not necessarily 455 01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:48,980 what the department was looking for I understand what you're saying but the the I pulled it 456 01:03:48,980 --> 01:03:52,980 out of the same source material that they're asking for and it's under the same heading 457 01:03:52,980 --> 01:04:00,760 and just on a different page number so it's all talking about the same thing so that's 458 01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:04,400 what I that that's kind of going back to if we're if we're wanting the department to say 459 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:10,080 we're just supposed to remember a set line we need to make sure that other sections in 460 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:15,360 the same quoted material don't have additional information to add that then could change 461 01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:24,720 the answer based on that one line in another section thank you Mr. Johnson I have a I have 462 01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:32,680 a question I have a scenario that I want to put to you we get we're getting we are indeed 463 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:38,640 getting tied up in the book and but here's here's my question it's my scenario to you 464 01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:45,240 I don't know if you were out last night around seven o'clock or so but if you had been out 465 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:52,440 fighting a fire last night around seven o'clock there was a nice gentle breeze blowing it 466 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:58,960 was made it a fairly nice night because the front was coming through and about seven thirty 467 01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:07,100 quarter of eight if you were still out fighting a fire there came a time period where the 468 01:05:07,100 --> 01:05:13,560 winds must have gone to thirty thirty five miles an hour if you had been fighting that 469 01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:22,000 fire it isn't just defining the physical surroundings it's judging the rate of change was a gentle 470 01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:28,040 breeze at seven o'clock by eight o'clock it was a roaring torrent of wind and you would 471 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:34,660 have had to have made a change and made that made a decision based on the the rate of change 472 01:05:34,660 --> 01:05:40,120 not just that oh it's windy so that's where I when I read through this that's where I 473 01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:46,480 came from and last night was just another example of it but the idea I mean what you're 474 01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:52,000 saying the physical surroundings are a part of the rate of change you measure something 475 01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:57,580 in your mind when you begin a process but you're constantly looking to see if things 476 01:05:57,580 --> 01:06:04,960 are going to change so you're still the more overriding of the four answers would be to 477 01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:10,440 judge the rate of change that's not really a question that's more of a comment but you 478 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:16,000 can comment but I'd like to hear your comments on that no I agree with what you're saying 479 01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:19,720 I agree that you have to take into consideration the rate of change but all those physical 480 01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,560 sounds surroundings are going to determine what that rate of change looks like because 481 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:27,760 it depends where you're at a grass fire is different from a building fire your physical 482 01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:33,760 surroundings dictate that so I mean yeah it all plays together and plays nice I understand 483 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:41,760 what you're saying but I still feel that my answer is a very viable answer okay fire response 484 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:48,200 I need I'm sorry any other questions of the appellant none for me thank you fire response 485 01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:54,960 this is a direct quote answer B has little to do with making an effective judgment in 486 01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:59,640 the situation the best answer is a and it comes right out of the text the text does 487 01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:05,080 not stay anywhere that physical surroundings is the ISOs foundation vote to sustain the 488 01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:10,760 key and I'd like to add as far as the expectations that are set for from the department since 489 01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:15,920 it's been brought up at the very beginning of the test we advise people in the strike 490 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:21,880 in the instructions on the test booklet to pick the best answer in a hypothetical scenario 491 01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:27,240 where there were two answers that may be correct you would still be required to pick the best 492 01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:41,440 answer questions of fire no questions of fire okay anyone like to speak in opposition to 493 01:07:41,440 --> 01:08:03,920 the appeal seeing none I would entertain a motion I move that we sustain the key I saw 494 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:16,080 it discussion I have no discussion all in favor of sustaining the key on question three 495 01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:26,480 say aye aye or vote with hand that's fine all right chairman I have a request I was 496 01:08:26,480 --> 01:08:32,840 wondering if we could maybe take a 10-minute break sure and I'd like specifically for you 497 01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:42,360 and I and miss Lang to to and a commissioner Prado for us to kind of put our heads together 498 01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:47,280 for a little bit I feel like we need to kind of get recalibrated just a little bit before 499 01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:52,720 we move forward and then we can come back together at it's what 10 after maybe come 500 01:08:52,720 --> 01:09:06,360 back at 20 after or 25 after um hang on John 501 01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:40,000 a little bit yeah. 502 01:09:40,000 --> 01:10:04,840 All right in order to do that we have to move to executive session so I need a motion for 503 01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:14,600 us to move to executive session which means for the appellants that you will be placed 504 01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:22,680 in a waiting room area I mean waiting room situation and let's say probably around 1030 505 01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:31,400 or so will we will reconvene out of executive session so John I make the motion that we 506 01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:47,400 move to executive session please I'll second it all in favor say aye aye motion motion 507 01:10:47,400 --> 01:11:06,760 carries so we will question number nine I call then then come then truck okay he's not 508 01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:16,800 here all right question nine says an example of an of the accommodation strategy for abating 509 01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:24,800 or mitigating a hazard would be blank a pre-hydrating crews and having them perform simple stretching 510 01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:32,280 exercises prior to an assignment be warning a firefighter of a slippery surface see placing 511 01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:38,320 a roof ladder on a pitched roof that requires ascending and descending on a pitched surface 512 01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:47,920 d physical fitness programs that include strength and flexibility training for working for for 513 01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:58,480 work hardening so the key answer is c placing a roof ladder on a pitched roof that requires 514 01:11:58,480 --> 01:12:10,760 ascending and descending on a pitched surface his appeal says page 128 and this would be 515 01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:21,680 out of the safety safety officer so page 128 the last sentence of the accommodation paragraph 516 01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:36,940 states having a water bottle available at each apparatus siting position requires firefighters 517 01:12:36,940 --> 01:12:43,200 to pre-hydrate while en route to a reported incident other accommodations strategy another 518 01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:59,560 accommodation strategy so fire response we vote to accept the appeal or accept c and 519 01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:05,280 a while c is in the book answer a should be considered correct also pre-hydrating crews 520 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:09,920 is clearly referenced in the accommodation section simple stretching is under the acclamation 521 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:14,520 section if you read the entire section the last few words clearly refer to reducing injuries 522 01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:27,480 which is the definition of accommodation questions of fire no questions anyone like to speak 523 01:13:27,480 --> 01:13:39,960 in opposition to the appeal seeing no one I would entertain a motion on question nine 524 01:13:39,960 --> 01:14:01,840 okay motion to accept a and c in the discussion I have no discussion hearing none all in favor 525 01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:19,240 say aye aye opposed oh I'm sorry John I saw you okay next is question 12 and read the 526 01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:34,460 writing Jason small Jason is not here okay question 12 says determining the appropriateness 527 01:14:34,460 --> 01:14:41,360 of blank is perhaps the most important decision that the incident safety officer has to make 528 01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:50,120 at the incident scene the answers are risk-taking personal protective equipment air monitoring 529 01:14:50,120 --> 01:15:07,080 operations the keyed answer is a the appeal says if I can read it to see ISO ISO states 530 01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:15,440 on page 167 says nothing about judging risk taking from 168 ISO should don PPE that is 531 01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:25,720 appropriate that is appropriate for the you what is that for the likely potential hazarding 532 01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:30,560 you should read these crystal this is number four in the sequence of importance to the 533 01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:39,360 structure of how in ISO arrives on scene and states starts the end get to engage the incident 534 01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:47,280 PPE is always the most important thing we did we determined this comes before risk taking 535 01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:53,840 is established the medic model is listed after this send on the very page the paragraph below 536 01:15:53,840 --> 01:16:07,040 talks about risk and it says the IC decides on the ISO must confirm the risk taking level 537 01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:20,200 fire response oh yeah fire response fire response right we vote to sustain the key the question 538 01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:24,840 states most important decision not a decision risk taking is clearly stated as the most 539 01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:43,800 important questions for fire I have no questions anyone like to speak in opposition there was 540 01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:54,560 a hand up a minute ago mr. Barzano do you have did you have a comment I know I was actually 541 01:16:54,560 --> 01:17:06,360 I wanted to clear up what the closed session was about how we were going to go forward 542 01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:11,960 today just just because I mean it's the open meeting so I was just wondering why we would 543 01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:16,480 pause in the middle of the open meeting I don't know if that's addressed under the open meetings 544 01:17:16,480 --> 01:17:23,360 act or or just couldn't understand why we're going it is we we have we are able to do that 545 01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:31,960 this language you like to yes if you look at the notice on the agenda for today there 546 01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:36,960 is a section that provides that the commissioners may go into executive session if they feel 547 01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:43,080 a need to do so and any discussions within that executive session does not have to be 548 01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:57,400 shared in the open meeting thank you all right any any questions anyone like to speak in 549 01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:10,920 opposition and commissioners I would entertain as I would entertain a motion I move that 550 01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:26,840 we sustain the key motion second to sustain the key any further discussion among commissioners 551 01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:39,520 anything hearing none John no no no discussion thank you all in favor say aye aye opposed 552 01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:54,720 motion carries next is question 17 mr. Buzaro you're back on oh we also have I'm sorry there 553 01:18:54,720 --> 01:19:02,920 are look at the let me let me get back to my there are two appeals on this so mr. Buzaro 554 01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:15,240 and mr. Miller both so as on what is what is like oh that's that's Buzaro and sorry 555 01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:24,480 I read the comics this morning so and you're not the comedian I didn't mean that okay so 556 01:19:24,480 --> 01:19:36,680 does it yeah okay um I guess uh most of well I based my appeal on just the civil's right 557 01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:44,440 the Civil Rights Act of 1964 it just addresses a broad range of of issues and I can't remember 558 01:19:44,440 --> 01:19:51,520 the the question verbatim if you wouldn't mind reading it to me all right question says 559 01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:57,200 the Civil Rights Act of 1964 covers state and local government practice was relating 560 01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:14,600 to blank and the four answers are voting hiring housing education okay thank you yeah I guess 561 01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:20,720 my argument was to accept multiple answers and I think the department had had made that 562 01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:24,840 decision anywhere to accept all answers I based my appeal on a different book which 563 01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:30,160 was the legal consideration book and I don't think the question came out of that so but 564 01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:45,800 that's all I had okay mr. Miller yes sir there you are now this is directly from my comments 565 01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:51,640 earlier how we're going to run head-on to an issue this he broke based that appeal verbatim 566 01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:57,720 of another book that states everything that's in all the answers on this question but we 567 01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:06,340 can't use it so I'm going to base my appeal out of the book it came out of on page 51 568 01:21:06,340 --> 01:21:12,020 where that where I believe what I can remember of the question you just read comes from underneath 569 01:21:12,020 --> 01:21:21,200 workplace diversity where it says opportunity commission ELC title seven of the Civil Rights 570 01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:31,000 Act of 1964 cover state local governments schools colleges and unions my answer is that 571 01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:38,400 this question states it's related to education education is my answer and the question says 572 01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:47,400 related to well here it says schools and colleges that's direct directly education and that's 573 01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:53,080 the reason that based my answer on that schools and colleges are education question says related 574 01:21:53,080 --> 01:22:03,120 to which is a broad scope in answering it and my answer is education okay question of 575 01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:15,200 the appellants I have no questions sorry can I can I get clarification so for mr. Miller 576 01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:22,840 are you saying that we shouldn't accept all four we should only accept BND it depends 577 01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:28,800 on the rules we're playing by and I'm not being sarcastic I mean we set a different 578 01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:33,880 standard in the driver's appeals that we're using today and I don't I don't know why the 579 01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:40,480 goalposts change today but they did I would say I mean that book has all these answers 580 01:22:40,480 --> 01:22:46,060 in it the other book not the quoted source material no we're going just by the quoted 581 01:22:46,060 --> 01:22:53,880 source material so just by this book by our officer book you're saying we should only 582 01:22:53,880 --> 01:23:03,600 accept B and D right yes ma'am I would I would make that argument as well because what we're 583 01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:09,740 what we're saying is yes obviously anyone that knows for civil rights that includes 584 01:23:09,740 --> 01:23:16,000 all of these if we're looking at other prior knowledge or anything like that then we can't 585 01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:20,160 justify it so we just that's what this that's what our closed meeting was about that we're 586 01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:25,280 gonna if it's in the book then we can justify we can use it but if it's not in the quoted 587 01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:35,280 book and we're not right yes so so then I I'm I'm listening to mr. Miller I agree that 588 01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:56,800 B and D unless someone else can speak on behalf of the other two holding the book 589 01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:15,740 so we have a we have a situation here commissioners where one appellant says A and D and the other 590 01:24:15,740 --> 01:24:30,440 one says D and the department is going to accept all the answers and so I think that 591 01:24:30,440 --> 01:24:53,880 makes sure the problem John I'm not sure that it does I if I understand commissioner Prado's 592 01:24:53,880 --> 01:25:04,980 concern she's saying that we shouldn't accept B and D or B and C because they're not specifically 593 01:25:04,980 --> 01:25:32,240 in the book in this book well on page 51 there's that's that the enumerated one and it says 594 01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:40,400 bail or refuse to hire or discharge any individual so there's the word hiring there and then 595 01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:49,080 up above it says title seven of the civil rights act covers state and local governments 596 01:25:49,080 --> 01:26:00,520 and colleges excuse me schools colleges and unions so the education aspect is listed there 597 01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:05,680 where are you reading I'm sorry I'm on page 51 but I didn't follow you under workplace 598 01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:14,720 diversity you go down to the second sentence there it says title seven of the civil rights 599 01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:25,400 act of 1964 covers state and local governments schools colleges and unions so there's your 600 01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:33,680 education there and then you go down to the next subset it says number one fail or refuse 601 01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:40,040 to hire so there's the word hiring there right so that would mean to accept B and D then 602 01:26:40,040 --> 01:26:54,920 my question who can support accepting A and C under this certain section right I understand 603 01:26:54,920 --> 01:27:11,320 and so back to my response that A and D and the other appellant said D 604 01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:26,440 so so if we're going to do B and D it's pretty clear but I'm not sure we can do A and D yeah 605 01:27:26,440 --> 01:27:44,600 I mean I would make a motion that we would accept B and D is there a second who made 606 01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:56,040 the motion Commissioner Prado okay I'll second that okay the motion is to accept B and D 607 01:27:56,040 --> 01:28:07,400 I forgot to do one thing so anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal 608 01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:14,440 seeing no one all right motion is to accept B and D discussion 609 01:28:14,440 --> 01:28:28,880 I don't think we can justify accepting A and if this is the appeal that quotes the another 610 01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:33,320 reference then that I mean the justification even said we can't do that we can't accept 611 01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:44,960 another reference source material even though our common knowledge says something else but 612 01:28:44,960 --> 01:29:00,820 yeah I agree with you all right any other discussion okay go ahead Mr. Razel I'm sorry 613 01:29:00,820 --> 01:29:07,840 I just need a little bit of clarification moving forward so the question came out of 614 01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:13,880 fire officer principal and practices but the appeal was cited from another source material 615 01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:19,600 so is that allowed or is that not allowed I know that's kind of been the discussion 616 01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:28,560 for the day we are not we are not acknowledging the other appeal the the outside source okay 617 01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:33,840 the two answers that are the motion that's on the floor reflects the two answers that 618 01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:41,800 are found in the fire officer principles and practices book okay thank you we're trying 619 01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:52,240 we're trying our best to be consistent and not change not change the goalposts and and 620 01:29:52,240 --> 01:29:58,000 let's just say we're trying our best to do what we can do so but those two answers that 621 01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:03,820 the motion come directly from the book that would the material that we're talking about 622 01:30:03,820 --> 01:30:13,440 so all right fair what we decided in the in the closed meeting though that if if there's 623 01:30:13,440 --> 01:30:21,280 something that is from the same book but you can justify your other answer source material 624 01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:26,280 then that's something that that's something that can happen as long as it's not an outside 625 01:30:26,280 --> 01:30:31,440 source if it's coming from the same book but you can justify and you can accept that your 626 01:30:31,440 --> 01:30:42,920 other answer is somewhere else listed in the same book then that is something that's possible 627 01:30:42,920 --> 01:31:11,280 see neither neither appellant asked wait a second all right then be 628 01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:21,440 an appellant mr. bazano asked that that'd be a and d voting and voting is not mentioned 629 01:31:21,440 --> 01:31:29,080 in in this paragraph mr. bazano do you know if it's listed anywhere else in this book 630 01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:36,560 anywhere else in the fire officer book i'm not right after the top of my head commissioner 631 01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:43,520 like i said i was interpreting it from other source material as well even yeah i know common 632 01:31:43,520 --> 01:32:07,280 sense we all know but i know where you're at as far as your position 120 hang on just 633 01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:33,280 a minute 634 01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:37,040 the other reference i was looking at the other the other reference in that book too 635 01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:42,440 to the civil rights act and it simply mentions the civil rights act it doesn't go into detail 636 01:32:42,440 --> 01:32:48,080 so if we look at this when we go with just the detail on page 51 of the book that's what 637 01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:59,480 we have to deal with um i don't did i actually ask for fire response we we we mentioned it 638 01:32:59,480 --> 01:33:08,920 but uh because we we have it in front of us so fire response to appeal of question 17 639 01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:13,240 but to accept all answers it's a faulty question the book that the question came out of is 640 01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:18,240 only referring to title seven of the civil rights act in 1964 of which is not clearly 641 01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:22,280 stated in the question the appeal is referring to another source material book and should 642 01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:31,560 not be considered since it is against the rule set forth 643 01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:45,280 okay who is right okay go ahead go ahead my only my only comment is that even if not referenced 644 01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:51,480 in the question because it's referenced because the question comes from that book i mean i 645 01:33:51,480 --> 01:33:58,120 would i would make the connection that i have to use this but 646 01:33:58,120 --> 01:34:00,800 that's what that's what meet and confer has said 647 01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:15,560 all right uh miss who is it miss who is it mr johnson 648 01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:20,400 yes sir um this question that i'm about to pose is not directly relate well it is related 649 01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:24,540 to this question but it's about my previous appeal on question number three before the 650 01:34:24,540 --> 01:34:33,080 closed session you guys it sounded like we're not going to give um the ability for me to 651 01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:38,360 use a different cited page in the same source material to come up with a reasonable answer 652 01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:43,000 and now after the closed session it appears that you guys are doing that for other appellants 653 01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:48,040 so i'm i'm confused as to how we draw that distinction now between before and after i 654 01:34:48,040 --> 01:34:53,160 pulled i pulled a page number with cited material from a different page in the same source material 655 01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:57,360 on question three and i don't feel like it was given the same credence that is being 656 01:34:57,360 --> 01:35:03,080 given now post that meeting i did bring your question up mr johnson 657 01:35:03,080 --> 01:35:10,120 and and we talked about that that it was it was said that there wasn't enough there wasn't 658 01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:17,200 enough um overlap i don't know if dr ramsey if you want to jump in but we did specifically 659 01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:24,760 talk about your question so we did actually uh give it a lot more than than what my and 660 01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:32,960 i was my personal vote on that mr johnson was uh not so much that my my vote was that 661 01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:43,520 your your request was a subset of a larger better answer and that's that's why that was 662 01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:48,520 that's why i voted that way and that's kind of where and i think that keeps us consistent 663 01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:53,680 and not that that not that we're going to try to be consistent don't get me wrong but 664 01:35:53,680 --> 01:35:59,720 you know we've got to we're trying our best to do what's right for you guys and and i 665 01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:07,520 think my i mean i feel that i made the i made that decision based on the larger better answer 666 01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:14,720 of the two not where it came from in what book so but we did talk about that specifically 667 01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:29,440 and in the session so all right thank you all right um motion is on the floor are there 668 01:36:29,440 --> 01:36:46,140 any other comments i have no more motion is on the floor to accept b and d any other discussion 669 01:36:46,140 --> 01:36:58,400 all in favor of accepting b and d on question 17 say aye aye aye opposed okay question 670 01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:16,840 18 mr johnson where do you go hold on i'm right here give me just a second okay i looked 671 01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:21,240 up and you weren't that's a screen and i knew where you had just been so all right let me 672 01:37:21,240 --> 01:37:33,400 grab my book this came out of real quick okay all right so on question 18 um this came out 673 01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:40,540 of the fire officer principles and practices book um if you can read the question for me 674 01:37:40,540 --> 01:37:47,320 and then i'll go into my appeal based off of that i would appreciate it okay frederick 675 01:37:47,320 --> 01:37:55,520 taylor's theory of scientific management included which of the following principles a division 676 01:37:55,520 --> 01:38:08,200 of labor b equal pay for equal work c mentoring d unity of command 677 01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:15,080 okay thank you uh so i believe that another acceptable answer in addition to the key answer 678 01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:22,960 is b equal pay for equal work where i'm gathering that information is off of page 113 um under 679 01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:29,020 the scientific management heading and the frederick wenslow taylor heading specifically um it 680 01:38:29,020 --> 01:38:33,360 talks about how scientific management is a breaking down of work task into their constituent 681 01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:37,800 elements uh the timing of each element based on repeated stopwatch studies and then the 682 01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:43,480 part i keyed in on was the fixing of peace rate compensation based on those studies that 683 01:38:43,480 --> 01:38:49,400 terminology the fixing of peace rate compensation essentially means equal pay for equal work 684 01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:56,240 so that's where my that's where my appeal is coming from um so that's that's the gist 685 01:38:56,240 --> 01:39:00,480 of my appeal that's that's where i pulled it from and i'd like to hear any questions 686 01:39:00,480 --> 01:39:08,320 or discussion based off that 687 01:39:08,320 --> 01:39:20,040 questions of the appellate i'm on page 113 i'm not seeing that language 688 01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:25,960 commissioner if you look at the top of 113 on the right hand column it is uh the end 689 01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:32,320 of the second sentence and the beginning of the third okay all right thank you very much 690 01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:45,200 you're welcome. 691 01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:19,440 mr johnson can you help me a little bit sure okay so let's go down to taylor's four principles 692 01:40:19,440 --> 01:40:28,160 of scientific management where quote they're summarized one two three four right um replace 693 01:40:28,160 --> 01:40:36,480 rule of thumb work methods with methods based on a scientific study of the task scientifically 694 01:40:36,480 --> 01:40:45,120 select train and develop each worker rather than passively leaving workers to train themselves 695 01:40:45,120 --> 01:40:52,320 number three cooperate with the workers to ensure that the scientifically developed methods 696 01:40:52,320 --> 01:41:01,200 are being followed number four divide work nearly equally between managers and workers 697 01:41:01,200 --> 01:41:09,040 so that the managers apply scientific management principles to planning the work and the workers 698 01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:16,920 actually perform the tasks then the last little section under that heading says factories 699 01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:23,000 that implemented these principles including hemry ford's model t automobile factories 700 01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:29,720 achieved impressive productivity versions of scientific management can still be found 701 01:41:29,720 --> 01:41:36,640 in the 21st century workplace so i guess when i was reading through this i kind of focused 702 01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:44,960 on that to see if i could pull the the equal pay out of that and i really couldn't you 703 01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:51,160 know i do see it on the page up there and so that's where i am trying i understand what 704 01:41:51,160 --> 01:41:54,480 you're saying it's not listed under those four principles of scientific management but 705 01:41:54,480 --> 01:42:00,600 it is least listed in the same heading the same topic area under the same person who 706 01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:05,160 came up with those ideas and it even has a sentence in there that scientific management 707 01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:10,400 is best based on the breaking down of these things that i mentioned and the fixing of 708 01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:15,540 uh piece rate compensation is one of those things it's all within the same context it's 709 01:42:15,540 --> 01:42:23,800 all within the same heading so it's not like i'm pulling this out of another source material 710 01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:27,760 i'm pulling it straight out of the same paragraphs where the answer you're saying is found out 711 01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:35,600 of is located right right right i grant you that i'll just try okay all right i'm trying 712 01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:44,280 to get you there i'm trying to get you i know i appreciate it thank you the problem that 713 01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:52,080 i that i saw with it is peace and and and i understand your interpretation of it but 714 01:42:52,080 --> 01:43:01,880 peace rate work peace rate compensation isn't really in one sense it is equal equal pay 715 01:43:01,880 --> 01:43:08,640 because it's equal rate but you can work harder and make more money and that's and so peace 716 01:43:08,640 --> 01:43:19,760 rate is peace is not equal pay for equal work it's it's the consistency of of the the rate 717 01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:27,080 not necessarily the work itself so if the fireman if when i was thinking through this 718 01:43:27,080 --> 01:43:33,040 it would be like so if you lift a 10-foot ladder you get paid more than if you lift 719 01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:37,760 an 8-foot ladder i mean that would be there you have a rate for a 10-foot ladder and a 720 01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:42,680 rate for an 8-foot ladder i'm being i'm being somewhat silly in that sense but that's the 721 01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:46,720 that would be the difference and that's not what we're what we're dealing that's not what 722 01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:53,200 i don't think that's what taylor was dealing with either uh so 723 01:43:53,200 --> 01:43:58,960 and just to kind of follow that up i do agree that the concept of equal pay for equal work 724 01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:06,080 is included under that heading i see that and where i'm struggling is it says frederick 725 01:44:06,080 --> 01:44:12,480 taylor's theory of scientific management included which of the following principles and then 726 01:44:12,480 --> 01:44:20,760 we're we're tasked with what is the most correct answer it is an answer but is that the most 727 01:44:20,760 --> 01:44:25,320 correct answer that's that's kind of where i'm struggling mr johnson i understand where 728 01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:29,440 you're where you're coming from i also just kind of want to go to go back to what commissioner 729 01:44:29,440 --> 01:44:34,680 ramsey said he said that he can he even verified what i had in this appeal when he said that 730 01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:39,320 he can see that it basically means equal pay for equal work he even said what my appeal 731 01:44:39,320 --> 01:44:51,480 was no i said equal rate equal rate peace work means an equal rate not equal not equal 732 01:44:51,480 --> 01:44:59,520 pay just to make sure that you understand don't 733 01:44:59,520 --> 01:45:07,160 misquote me i said that peace work means equal rate you get a penny for every see i grew 734 01:45:07,160 --> 01:45:13,440 up in a in a mill town where they people were paid by the number of sweatshirts they made 735 01:45:13,440 --> 01:45:18,320 in a day and you had the same amount of money for every sweatshirt you made but if you worked 736 01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:24,040 really really really hard you can make more money than somebody who didn't that's the 737 01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:31,640 that's the peace rate the i mean sorry the the peace work uh one the rate is the same 738 01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:37,680 but the amount of work done is determined by the worker and that's not what he talked 739 01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:50,840 about here so all right thank you 740 01:45:50,840 --> 01:46:00,840 any other any other comments i would entertain a motion sorry oh do we get have we not done 741 01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:13,200 that i'm sorry this copy the way these are copied is really confusing all right uh we're 742 01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:23,480 on question 17 right department response 18 we're on 18 18 all right i have the appeal 743 01:46:23,480 --> 01:46:29,120 on one page and the and the question on another page with a response so i'm sorry so question 744 01:46:29,120 --> 01:46:34,560 18 the fire response is sustain the key the question and answer reference together the 745 01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:39,040 main premise of this theory is stated on page 113 is to break down jobs and too simple to 746 01:46:39,040 --> 01:46:43,440 follow steps that have been determined to be the most efficient way to perform a job 747 01:46:43,440 --> 01:47:09,520 okay questions of fire hearing none i if we could for a second um 748 01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:17,200 does it specifically say division of labor anywhere here tell me i know the concept is 749 01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:28,440 presented but does it specifically say division of labor it says divide work equally okay 750 01:47:28,440 --> 01:47:35,520 i see that but does it say division of labor but that's really but that's really different 751 01:47:35,520 --> 01:47:41,000 okay division of labor and divide work nearly are pretty much the same i don't think anyone 752 01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:46,440 can draw a distinction between that but piece rate compensation and equal pay for equal 753 01:47:46,440 --> 01:48:08,200 work those are different division of labor and equal pay for equal work are different 754 01:48:08,200 --> 01:48:15,120 is what you're saying no no you're you're you're asking if division of labor and divide 755 01:48:15,120 --> 01:48:22,240 work equally can be can be interpreted as one in the same and i i think yes but i could 756 01:48:22,240 --> 01:48:27,720 interpret it the same but i was asking is it specifically is that phraseology of those 757 01:48:27,720 --> 01:48:32,920 terms specifically mentioned that's all i was asking i know i guess i was trying to 758 01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:39,520 i was trying to see if could we say the same for um for the piece rate compensation and 759 01:48:39,520 --> 01:48:44,600 equal pay for equal work could we make the same comparison to those two terms so that 760 01:48:44,600 --> 01:48:57,720 we could accept b but i don't think we can yeah okay 761 01:48:57,720 --> 01:49:12,640 mr prude yes can you hear me yes sir okay in opposition to the appeal the only thing 762 01:49:12,640 --> 01:49:19,160 that i could say that we could in which we could accept both answers is if the author 763 01:49:19,160 --> 01:49:27,480 somewhere in the book defined piece rate compensation as equal pay for equal work and i don't find 764 01:49:27,480 --> 01:49:53,080 that anywhere in the book okay thank you commissioners i would entertain a motion a motion that we 765 01:49:53,080 --> 01:50:17,640 sustain the key second any discussion i have no discussion okay all in favor say aye okay 766 01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:36,840 next is question 44 all right you guys ready rezel um wait we have to change books hang 767 01:50:36,840 --> 01:50:53,040 on 768 01:50:53,040 --> 01:50:57,320 we feel your pain but we have it all we have them all at the same time so you have to be 769 01:50:57,320 --> 01:51:07,040 test on we're going to find them so all right mr roselle where are we yes sir right here 770 01:51:07,040 --> 01:51:16,520 my appeal is drawn upon logic and critical thinking so we'll see how this goes the topic 771 01:51:16,520 --> 01:51:23,760 that the questions regarding is prioritize and execute which the author in layman's terms 772 01:51:23,760 --> 01:51:29,520 breaks it down to relax look around make a call it's the idea of slowing down figuring 773 01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:37,520 out what the the correct next move is and uh and acting upon that part of that is like 774 01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:43,360 the question says through careful contingency planning a leader can anticipate likely challenges 775 01:51:43,360 --> 01:51:50,600 that could arise and i'm not arguing that but if you flip back over to page 158 same 776 01:51:50,600 --> 01:52:00,320 source material the second full paragraph goes into depth about the extensive training 777 01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:09,880 used to learn the prioritize and execute or prioritize and move philosophy and it says 778 01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:14,320 this process was not intuitive to most people but can be learned built upon and greatly 779 01:52:14,320 --> 01:52:21,980 enhanced through many many iterations of training so my argument although it it's not verbatim 780 01:52:21,980 --> 01:52:29,040 from the text i i will acknowledge the question is verbatim from the text the answer logic 781 01:52:29,040 --> 01:52:34,680 would say that ultimately it was the extensively designed training that allowed for the contingency 782 01:52:34,680 --> 01:52:40,280 plan the plans to be created in the first place so without the training you wouldn't 783 01:52:40,280 --> 01:52:52,600 be able to develop the contingency plans effectively okay thank you questions of the appellant 784 01:53:10,280 --> 01:53:37,200 questions no there's product questions no i'd like i'm curious about the department 785 01:53:37,200 --> 01:53:51,860 okay mr baynes i'm i'm i'm there i'm still looking at page 158 that the gentleman referenced 786 01:53:51,860 --> 01:53:56,000 and i was trying to make sure i didn't go too fast so please forgive me for being a 787 01:53:56,000 --> 01:54:01,080 little slow no that's not the we want to do this right as best we can so 788 01:54:01,080 --> 01:54:18,280 because we are in the same book same reference material so we're good we're good there the 789 01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:38,920 question is can this particular answer be considered the best answer for this question 790 01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:48,920 why don't we go ahead and do the fire response which might spark either okay might even might 791 01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:57,880 spark more discussion or it may not so um fire response 792 01:54:57,880 --> 01:55:04,760 you're you're muted you're muted there we go we vote to sustain the key it's verbatim 793 01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:10,080 from the book the correct answer is c d is not a correct answer because the training 794 01:55:10,080 --> 01:55:14,000 that the appeals referring to was happening right then and it required the team leader 795 01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:18,040 and team to make decisions under pressure as it was happening the question is clearly 796 01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:22,400 asking how someone or the team can respond or plan to respond to something before they 797 01:55:22,400 --> 01:55:27,880 happen which is clearly not happening in present time like a training scenario this makes d 798 01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:46,160 the faulty answer and c should be considered should be the only accepted answer 799 01:55:46,160 --> 01:55:56,520 questions of fire isn't that why you train that you can be put in those situations i 800 01:55:56,520 --> 01:56:00,880 mean the training is part of your hands-on learning it's putting you in scenarios and 801 01:56:00,880 --> 01:56:08,680 coming up with try it's kind of like safe safe trial and error 802 01:56:08,680 --> 01:56:15,840 i completely agree with you commissioner i completely agree with you as the training 803 01:56:15,840 --> 01:56:23,240 officer so commissioner prado do i hear you saying then that d could also be a correct 804 01:56:23,240 --> 01:56:31,160 answer yes i could add something more to this to distinguish 805 01:56:31,160 --> 01:56:40,040 between the two if you like if training happens all the time and covers a broad arrangement 806 01:56:40,040 --> 01:56:47,400 of topics if i'm going to attack a mission and i have to plan make contingency careful 807 01:56:47,400 --> 01:56:53,640 contingency planning that's very specific to that mission that i'm about to carry out 808 01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:59,280 so we're going from a broad general topic of training to know how to do my job to very 809 01:56:59,280 --> 01:57:05,120 specific mission oriented i got to prioritize and execute these specific things and then 810 01:57:05,120 --> 01:57:12,880 i have to plan a contingency for those things training makes me better at doing that but 811 01:57:12,880 --> 01:57:25,760 this is specific to that point i can see a distinction between planning 812 01:57:25,760 --> 01:57:32,960 versus training i can see a distinction we have a lot of training so that when we get 813 01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:40,240 to the real time situation we can develop a plan of action without that training it's 814 01:57:40,240 --> 01:57:46,520 very difficult to to to provide an adequate plan of action so i do see a difference there 815 01:57:46,520 --> 01:57:52,320 between the the training and the planning i just want to make sure that when i'm looking 816 01:57:52,320 --> 01:57:58,640 at this question stepping into and examine these shoes that that that i'm giving the 817 01:57:58,640 --> 01:58:23,920 benefit of the doubt when i see this 818 01:58:23,920 --> 01:58:28,560 hey i'm sorry i was i was out of commission somebody bring me off the commission 819 01:58:28,560 --> 01:58:38,000 no um somebody bring me back to we were with the discussion when we when we left was that 820 01:58:38,000 --> 01:58:48,880 it was perhaps bnd have we gone beyond that cnd cnd i'm sorry 821 01:58:53,600 --> 01:59:02,880 okay um is there anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal 822 01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:17,280 seeing no one hearing no one um commissioners i would entertain a motion on question 44 823 01:59:24,560 --> 01:59:27,680 uh i would i understand what you're saying um 824 01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:38,560 mr skipper but uh i do understand so i was i read the second part uh through what would 825 01:59:38,560 --> 01:59:44,160 make more sense through a careful contingency planning a leader can anticipate likely challenges 826 01:59:44,160 --> 01:59:50,480 that could arise uh or through extensively designed training a leader could anticipate 827 01:59:50,480 --> 01:59:56,720 likely challenges that could arise during an execution i understand and i uh but i think 828 01:59:56,720 --> 02:00:03,440 that for this question i don't think i don't think there's enough of a um distinction yeah 829 02:00:03,440 --> 02:00:11,520 so i i would i would make a motion that we accept c and d as the answer 830 02:00:14,240 --> 02:00:22,000 i'll second that motion it's been moved and seconded to accept answer c and d for question 44 831 02:00:22,000 --> 02:00:23,920 discussion 832 02:00:23,920 --> 02:00:32,960 no discussion for me 833 02:00:32,960 --> 02:00:41,760 no discussion all in favor of the motion to accept c and d say aye 834 02:00:42,720 --> 02:00:44,640 aye opposed 835 02:00:44,640 --> 02:01:00,080 okay um when i left for just a second someone still had a question about the the closed meeting 836 02:01:00,080 --> 02:01:10,240 discussion and um i just want to to bring just to clarify our discussion in that meeting was to try 837 02:01:10,240 --> 02:01:20,960 to get us a reading of what the legal ramifications were of our decisions based on chapter 43 which is 838 02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:28,240 the civil service code for the state uh meet and confer and even local rules but it was our 839 02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:37,120 discussion was more of a legal the legal issue of it uh so so i just i say that just for clarification 840 02:01:37,120 --> 02:01:43,520 that we were dealing with we were trying to get a sense of the legal issues that we were 841 02:01:43,520 --> 02:01:50,000 that we were dealing with at this point so okay now question 45 842 02:01:54,960 --> 02:02:07,680 mr pazano yes sir can you read the uh question to me please um hang on just a second yes i i i can 843 02:02:07,680 --> 02:02:13,040 i just have to make sure that i find it why do i have 844 02:02:13,040 --> 02:02:20,080 are there two appeals or three three appeals okay i'm sorry 845 02:02:24,960 --> 02:02:32,480 the printer is messing this all up 44 846 02:02:32,480 --> 02:02:39,280 okay all right i got you 847 02:02:39,280 --> 02:02:50,160 your appeals are on front and back of the paper and so anyway the question um that part i can do 848 02:02:50,160 --> 02:02:56,880 frontline leaders must have trust and confidence in blank to know that they are empowered to make 849 02:02:56,880 --> 02:03:11,280 decisions the answers are their subordinates b themselves c their policies d the senior leaders 850 02:03:11,280 --> 02:03:17,760 the keyed answer is d their senior leaders 851 02:03:21,120 --> 02:03:25,520 now oh again since we've got mr pazano up 852 02:03:25,520 --> 02:03:36,160 i'll let you go ahead okay thank you um i based my appeal on the concept that the author is 853 02:03:36,160 --> 02:03:47,760 describing uh decentralized command and um so he was speaking about having confidence in not only 854 02:03:47,760 --> 02:03:53,680 your senior leadership but also your subordinates and that's why i think that um 855 02:03:53,680 --> 02:04:04,960 the question or the answer a would would be the same or also acceptable so compared to uh answer 856 02:04:04,960 --> 02:04:12,800 d if we look at the page that it's referenced from i believe it's referenced from 171 in uh extreme 857 02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:21,440 ownership let's see uh for any leader placing full faith and trust in junior leaders with less 858 02:04:21,440 --> 02:04:26,240 experience and allowing them to manage their teams is a difficult thing to embrace it requires 859 02:04:26,240 --> 02:04:32,400 tremendous trust and confidence in those frontline leaders so when he says frontline leaders i i 860 02:04:32,400 --> 02:04:38,320 believe that to be referencing to the uh junior leaders who must very clearly understand the 861 02:04:38,320 --> 02:04:43,280 strategic mission and ensure their immediate tactical decisions ultimately contribute to 862 02:04:43,280 --> 02:04:50,880 accomplishing the overarching goals frontline leaders must also have must also have trust 863 02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:55,120 and confidence in their senior leaders to know that they are empowered to make decisions and 864 02:04:55,120 --> 02:05:07,280 that their senior leaders will back them up okay thank you uh mr johnson 865 02:05:08,800 --> 02:05:09,920 anything to add 866 02:05:09,920 --> 02:05:20,080 um no sir i think mr pesano pretty much stumped it up well um i pulled my appeal from the same page 867 02:05:20,080 --> 02:05:25,280 that the department like he was talking about got their answer off 171 like he said the whole whole 868 02:05:25,280 --> 02:05:30,720 idea of this was decentralized command and the word also where it says frontline leaders must 869 02:05:30,720 --> 02:05:36,400 also have trust and confidence in their senior leaders that also is there because the entire 870 02:05:36,400 --> 02:05:41,360 paragraph before is talking about how the the top has to have confidence in their junior leaders 871 02:05:41,360 --> 02:05:45,280 so that's that's where i based my peel off the same information that he pulled his from 872 02:05:45,280 --> 02:05:50,240 okay thank you mr rozelle 873 02:05:50,240 --> 02:05:54,640 nothing to add there you are 874 02:05:54,640 --> 02:06:02,240 question of the appellants questions to the appellants 875 02:06:06,400 --> 02:06:14,240 um 876 02:06:14,240 --> 02:06:21,280 so you know i um 877 02:06:21,280 --> 02:06:30,560 i did struggle with this question so i want you to know that this was not an easy question for me 878 02:06:31,440 --> 02:06:47,600 and you know as a as a platoon leader you know in the military 879 02:06:47,600 --> 02:06:54,320 did my authority come from the subordinates or did the authority come from 880 02:06:55,440 --> 02:07:02,000 the um the senior superiors that's kind of where you know where does my authority come from 881 02:07:02,000 --> 02:07:09,280 and really the authority came from periods now my juniors have to have confidence in me 882 02:07:09,280 --> 02:07:17,680 but really my authority to act and to do things comes from the senior so i could i could see where 883 02:07:17,680 --> 02:07:24,400 there's the need to embrace the juniors but when you ask the at least for me 884 02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:32,080 when you when you when you're asked where does my authority come from it really comes from my 885 02:07:32,080 --> 02:07:38,400 superiors rather than from my subordinates so that's kind of how i look at it now i don't know 886 02:07:38,400 --> 02:07:49,840 if things have changed significantly that's just how i viewed it so i i appreciate that thank you 887 02:07:49,840 --> 02:07:56,160 commissioner um i think it's just a matter of mindset too i i agree with you your legal 888 02:07:56,160 --> 02:08:02,080 authority comes from your superiors it comes from you know um the authority either comes from your 889 02:08:02,080 --> 02:08:08,480 badge that you are pinned with i guess i take a little different idea that a lot of authority 890 02:08:08,480 --> 02:08:14,720 comes from those who you ask to follow you as well i would not have any authority should no one 891 02:08:15,520 --> 02:08:21,920 believe in me or want to you know follow me and especially with this with this type of um 892 02:08:21,920 --> 02:08:31,440 with this passage here i i took it as meaning that um i think it was life babin who was the one who 893 02:08:31,440 --> 02:08:38,720 who wrote this section i took it to mean that he was he was he was expecting his frontline leaders 894 02:08:38,720 --> 02:08:45,200 which are his subordinates or his junior leaders to have um full faith and confidence in himself 895 02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:51,600 and that he had that he also had full faith and confidence in them so that's where i got that's 896 02:08:51,600 --> 02:08:58,000 kind of where i was was going with my uh with my appeal oh i could see that is goes both what you 897 02:08:58,000 --> 02:09:07,680 know goes up and down and yeah i i see i guess you know in the final analysis i mean if all the 898 02:09:08,800 --> 02:09:15,200 juniors run away yeah i still have authority but that authority is based upon the ones that have 899 02:09:15,200 --> 02:09:21,360 given it to me right and this is a really hard and this is a really hard question just because 900 02:09:21,360 --> 02:09:28,960 it is simply stated if i take that one sentence yes okay yes they got me that's true but i i take 901 02:09:28,960 --> 02:09:37,840 it as a bigger picture and that's that's kind of where i'm coming from any other questions of the 902 02:09:37,840 --> 02:09:45,600 appellants second mr razelle 903 02:09:45,600 --> 02:09:54,080 thank you i just want to reiterate also the fact that the the test writers excluded the word also 904 02:09:54,080 --> 02:10:00,880 from the otherwise verbatim text question which confounds the ambiguity of the answer even further 905 02:10:01,840 --> 02:10:08,720 it's almost as if the test writer recognized that the author had spent the the whole paragraph 906 02:10:08,720 --> 02:10:16,000 talking about trust and confidence in other people and and finishes the paragraph with the test 907 02:10:16,000 --> 02:10:23,600 question so if the well i can wait for the department to give their ruling but i don't 908 02:10:23,600 --> 02:10:29,280 think it's fair to say it's verbatim from the text when the question itself is technically not 909 02:10:29,280 --> 02:10:33,040 verbatim from the text i think that's important to recognize 910 02:10:33,040 --> 02:10:47,440 thank you anyone else any other questions okay fire response 911 02:10:47,440 --> 02:10:56,160 we vote to sustain the key stated in the text the text does not state the frontline leaders 912 02:10:56,160 --> 02:10:59,440 must have trust and confidence in their subordinates the appeals are trying to 913 02:10:59,440 --> 02:11:03,520 make a correlation that junior leaders must have trust and confidence in their subordinates 914 02:11:03,520 --> 02:11:05,280 and the text does not state this either 915 02:11:05,280 --> 02:11:16,320 question of questions of fire 916 02:11:23,200 --> 02:11:26,240 this is supposed to be commissioners commissioners 917 02:11:26,240 --> 02:11:36,000 i'm struggling i'm struggling because i i can see it both ways 918 02:11:36,000 --> 02:11:44,080 you know commissioner uh commissioner you know you you you made reference 919 02:11:44,080 --> 02:11:52,320 to your educational background and and answering some questions and so when i think back to my 920 02:11:52,320 --> 02:11:58,880 years in the military and even you know my training and rotc prior to that you know i just 921 02:11:58,880 --> 02:12:05,840 i mean you got you got a need both ways you need you need you need the support of those above you 922 02:12:05,840 --> 02:12:11,920 but when you have stripes or or whatever you have on your you know you need the the people below 923 02:12:11,920 --> 02:12:17,120 you to support you as well i mean it's it's it's you know we've got two areas here and i'm 924 02:12:17,120 --> 02:12:22,080 struggling basically i'm struggling with this because i don't want to be cavalier with people's 925 02:12:22,080 --> 02:12:26,240 career i want to i want to make sure i give them the best answer 926 02:12:26,240 --> 02:12:40,240 anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal 927 02:12:40,240 --> 02:12:46,640 commissioners i would entertain a motion 928 02:12:48,640 --> 02:12:57,520 mr mr johnson sorry thank you i appreciate it uh what i'm struggling with is i don't understand 929 02:12:57,520 --> 02:13:02,560 how the department is saying that the the text or the material the cited reference material doesn't 930 02:13:02,560 --> 02:13:08,400 specifically talk about putting faith and trust in junior leaders i'm on page 171 under that 931 02:13:08,400 --> 02:13:14,480 paragraph talking about decentralized command and it says for any leader placing full faith and 932 02:13:14,480 --> 02:13:19,680 trust in junior leaders with less experience and allowing them to manage their teams is a difficult 933 02:13:19,680 --> 02:13:25,280 thing to embrace it requires tremendous trust and confidence in those frontline leaders who 934 02:13:25,280 --> 02:13:30,000 must very clearly understand the strategic mission and ensure that their immediate tactical decisions 935 02:13:30,000 --> 02:13:35,200 ultimately contribute to accomplishing the overarching goals this is where it comes to 936 02:13:35,200 --> 02:13:40,400 that other the frontline leaders must also have trust and confidence in their senior leaders the 937 02:13:40,400 --> 02:13:45,760 reason that has that sentence is because everything else in that paragraph in the cited source material 938 02:13:45,760 --> 02:13:49,440 has been talking about placing trust and confidence in those junior leaders 939 02:13:49,440 --> 02:14:01,520 mr skipper i'll go chief skipper i'll give you a chance to respond to that if you'd like 940 02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:07,520 the whole section you just read greg was read from the perspective of a senior leader 941 02:14:08,240 --> 02:14:15,040 and how he feels towards a junior leader the question is asking frontline leaders must have 942 02:14:15,040 --> 02:14:20,480 trust and confidence in blank to know that they are empowered to make decisions so if you're a 943 02:14:20,480 --> 02:14:26,800 frontline leader and your senior leadership doesn't empower you to make decisions then you won't and 944 02:14:26,800 --> 02:14:36,240 that's basically what that whole section just said mention that last sentence again for me please 945 02:14:36,240 --> 02:14:42,160 the last sentence you mentioned i said that if if frontline leaders are not empowered which is the 946 02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:47,840 word that the question uses by their senior leadership which was the perspective of that 947 02:14:47,840 --> 02:14:53,280 whole section that greg just read then frontline leaders won't make decisions and they'll just 948 02:14:53,280 --> 02:15:07,120 always push them up the chain of command i'll make a motion mr here yes sir that we accept uh 949 02:15:07,120 --> 02:15:12,000 answers a and d i'll second 950 02:15:12,000 --> 02:15:18,640 okay motion seconded to accept answers a and d 951 02:15:21,200 --> 02:15:24,800 discussion i have none 952 02:15:24,800 --> 02:15:31,680 my question in this whole thing was 953 02:15:31,680 --> 02:15:41,120 the the assumption that a subordinate is a junior leader 954 02:15:41,120 --> 02:15:49,280 and i'm not sure where the junior leader and subordinates are separated 955 02:15:51,360 --> 02:15:58,160 however that for that reason i'm i'm going to vote for a and c 956 02:15:58,160 --> 02:16:04,960 i don't know where the separation was between is between you know is it is a junior leader if we 957 02:16:04,960 --> 02:16:12,320 put it into a fire situation is the senior leader the captain and the junior leader the subordinate 958 02:16:12,320 --> 02:16:19,040 and the firefighters the i'm sorry the j the captain is the junior leader and the subordinates 959 02:16:19,040 --> 02:16:25,840 are the firefighters or i mean that's the that was the problem that i was having and i think 960 02:16:25,840 --> 02:16:31,920 for that reason i think both answers need to be there a and d you mean a and d yeah you said c 961 02:16:31,920 --> 02:16:35,120 so i'm sorry a and d i'm sorry thank you 962 02:16:35,120 --> 02:16:44,800 so all right no other discussion we better vote we gotta vote we gotta vote 963 02:16:44,800 --> 02:16:49,760 yeah all in favor say aye aye all right okay 964 02:16:49,760 --> 02:16:56,960 next is question 54 965 02:17:06,320 --> 02:17:14,800 mr die there he is yes sir he waited patiently 966 02:17:14,800 --> 02:17:25,040 uh my my appeal is just based on the principle of the the initial sentence the question itself 967 02:17:25,040 --> 02:17:28,880 just simply ask you which of the following statements is true 968 02:17:30,640 --> 02:17:37,120 and when you get into the reference material on the page that it states it it goes through 969 02:17:37,120 --> 02:17:43,760 two phases of overhaul there's free control and there's post control sort of depending 970 02:17:43,760 --> 02:17:48,000 on which phase you're in all of the choices would be correct 971 02:17:58,320 --> 02:18:03,920 okay questions of the appellant commissioners 972 02:18:03,920 --> 02:18:18,400 um in my reading of this particular question i'm on page um 190 at the very top 973 02:18:18,400 --> 02:18:27,040 it says overhaul may be performed in the following two phases pre-control and post-control 974 02:18:28,560 --> 02:18:33,840 um and then as i went back and read the material that preceded it and went 975 02:18:33,840 --> 02:18:40,560 afterward it seemed like the only answer that seemed appropriate was the one that mentioned 976 02:18:40,560 --> 02:18:51,040 before and after which would have been a before overhaul may be done either before or after the 977 02:18:51,040 --> 02:19:02,320 fire is under control which was pre-control and post-control um i didn't really see those d and 978 02:19:02,320 --> 02:19:12,480 c as being uh excuse me i didn't really see b c and d as being appropriate because it said 979 02:19:15,280 --> 02:19:23,200 before and after so if there's a way you can help me uh mr die i'd greatly appreciate it 980 02:19:23,200 --> 02:19:31,680 i was just looking at the simple fact that if it says that uh overhaul has to be done after the 981 02:19:31,680 --> 02:19:40,000 fire is under control yes that would be in your post-control overhaul yeah so just that that's 982 02:19:40,000 --> 02:19:45,520 what i've based it on it i may be way off base i just when i read the question it says which 983 02:19:45,520 --> 02:19:51,200 of the following are true they all rang true to me just depending on what phase of overhaul that 984 02:19:51,200 --> 02:20:00,080 you're in so i mean if this appeal is not valid that's that's perfectly fine i'm just uh it just 985 02:20:00,080 --> 02:20:04,960 i had a hard time with that question let's let's go to let's go to question let's go to answer c 986 02:20:04,960 --> 02:20:10,880 for a second and let's just see if that one let's just kind of mash on this one a little bit it says 987 02:20:10,880 --> 02:20:18,640 overhaul should never be done before the fire is under control yes sir so that would be that would 988 02:20:18,640 --> 02:20:29,040 be your post-control yeah yeah uh before before the fire is under control and then you know to me 989 02:20:29,040 --> 02:20:35,920 that's pre isn't it in that pre before your fire is under control will be pre-control yes sir right 990 02:20:35,920 --> 02:20:44,800 right so if you say overhaul should never be done in in pre-control then that contradicts 991 02:20:44,800 --> 02:20:53,280 you know that's not a true statement it has to be done both before and after yes before the fire is 992 02:20:53,280 --> 02:21:01,200 under control and then after so just by taking that one you could not say that all four are correct 993 02:21:01,200 --> 02:21:11,360 you know so and to me the one that was the most correct was was a so yes sir i accept that that's 994 02:21:11,360 --> 02:21:19,760 perfectly fine um all right good i had a hard time with it i guess i was wrestling with you i wanted 995 02:21:19,760 --> 02:21:24,240 to make sure i gave you every benefit that's perfectly fine i thank you you're welcome 996 02:21:24,240 --> 02:21:29,920 other questions of the appellant fire response 997 02:21:29,920 --> 02:21:36,960 we vote to sustain the key the book clearly states the overhaul can be 998 02:21:36,960 --> 02:21:40,720 performed pre-control and post-control this makes a the best answer 999 02:21:44,160 --> 02:21:52,880 questions of fire i have no questions of fire i have a comment that that 1000 02:21:52,880 --> 02:21:58,640 again it's it's always go for the best answer 1001 02:21:58,640 --> 02:22:06,160 and if there are two that you're dealing with go with the best one and so 1002 02:22:08,080 --> 02:22:17,600 anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal hearing none commissioners i would entertain a motion 1003 02:22:17,600 --> 02:22:27,040 i'll make a motion that we accept or we sustain the key i'll second discussion 1004 02:22:27,040 --> 02:22:31,520 hearing none all in favor say aye 1005 02:22:32,720 --> 02:22:41,120 aye 54 sustain the key and 58 1006 02:22:41,120 --> 02:22:53,120 i guess that's me in that he's not here 1007 02:22:53,120 --> 02:23:02,080 all right um question says what is the primary concern 1008 02:23:02,080 --> 02:23:09,040 in roof dental what is the primary concern in roof ventilation a the size of the opening the 1009 02:23:09,040 --> 02:23:16,240 location of the opening what type of tool to use in making the opening or the safety of firefighting 1010 02:23:16,240 --> 02:23:25,440 personnel and the keyed answer is d the safety of the firefighter person the firefighting personnel 1011 02:23:26,400 --> 02:23:37,760 uh the appeal says on a handbook of tactics page 259 hang on let me get there 1012 02:23:51,360 --> 02:23:57,280 there with me um 1013 02:23:57,280 --> 02:24:00,720 all right 1014 02:24:00,720 --> 02:24:18,560 okay the appeal says uh first paragraph of page 259 the first step in making any ventilation opening 1015 02:24:18,560 --> 02:24:25,680 is to locate the proper site usually as close to directly over over the fire as safe as is safe 1016 02:24:25,680 --> 02:24:33,200 um so he says that the another answer b is the correct answer that would be the location of the 1017 02:24:33,200 --> 02:24:39,200 opening so fire response 1018 02:24:39,200 --> 02:24:47,600 vote to sustain the key book clearly states in the second column about four lines down 1019 02:24:47,600 --> 02:24:51,200 that the safety of the members performing the task is always the first concern 1020 02:24:51,200 --> 02:24:55,200 appeal is based on the sequence of cutting the hole and not the concerns 1021 02:24:55,200 --> 02:25:06,000 questions of fire i do have a question of fire uh so so chief chief skipper 1022 02:25:06,000 --> 02:25:13,600 when does the the uh the location and the size of the hole when does that become important 1023 02:25:16,240 --> 02:25:18,480 after the safety of the firefighters is concerned 1024 02:25:18,480 --> 02:25:26,720 it comes when when you decide that you're going to actually cut a hole then we start looking at 1025 02:25:26,720 --> 02:25:32,640 hey we need to cut a hole this big we need to put it over the location of the fire so the fire is 1026 02:25:32,640 --> 02:25:37,920 contained and that it actually is big enough to release all the heat and smoke from so you would 1027 02:25:37,920 --> 02:25:43,760 you would never make that consideration until you number one said is this a safe decision 1028 02:25:44,640 --> 02:25:50,800 correct thank you so that doesn't even come into consideration yeah the first thing is before we 1029 02:25:50,800 --> 02:25:57,120 would get on the roof and actually cut a hole is is it going to be safe that's what i needed 1030 02:25:57,120 --> 02:26:04,880 thank you yes sir from i think from my experience and at this in this place that's partially the 1031 02:26:04,880 --> 02:26:10,720 cutting the hole is the safe is dealing with the safety of the firefighters as much as it is 1032 02:26:11,760 --> 02:26:16,400 anything else i mean you don't cut the hole and let's because except for the fact that it makes 1033 02:26:16,400 --> 02:26:23,040 the fire safer for the firefighters if i remember correctly from my other opportunities to have here 1034 02:26:23,040 --> 02:26:32,880 so all right other questions of fire i have none so just on i guess just because um 1035 02:26:32,880 --> 02:26:40,080 so logically we would we would work on the safety right we'd make sure that it was safe 1036 02:26:40,080 --> 02:26:45,840 that's a logical that should be ingrained that you know obviously you're not going to go into 1037 02:26:45,840 --> 02:26:51,440 something knowing or expecting that you're going to get hurt but on that page 259 without reference 1038 02:26:51,440 --> 02:26:56,720 to safety on top of that page it does say that that it's it's exactly the first step in making 1039 02:26:56,720 --> 02:27:04,480 any ventilation opening and it i mean it even says the first step is to locate the proper site so i'm 1040 02:27:04,480 --> 02:27:08,480 just learning that out there does that change anything for anyone i know that the question here 1041 02:27:08,480 --> 02:27:14,800 is what is the primary concern in roof ventilation so because it's talking about roof ventilation 1042 02:27:14,800 --> 02:27:16,960 specifically we would not say that it's the 1043 02:27:16,960 --> 02:27:23,840 locating the proper site locating that where the proper opening should be 1044 02:27:34,080 --> 02:27:38,880 geeskipper i was wondering if that was for me or is that for y'all to discuss amongst yourselves 1045 02:27:38,880 --> 02:27:48,800 no i anyone that would help me understand sure so um the to i'm trying to phrase this is not an opinion 1046 02:27:48,800 --> 02:27:57,280 getting on a roof to getting on a roof to cut a hole is one of the most unsafe things that we can 1047 02:27:57,280 --> 02:28:03,440 do if there's a fire underneath this so we have to really carefully look at that roof and consider 1048 02:28:03,440 --> 02:28:08,480 the sagging of the you know the the decking that kind of thing we sound the roof when we get on 1049 02:28:08,480 --> 02:28:14,320 there if we get on top we start hitting it with um holes and determine if it's soft before we 1050 02:28:14,320 --> 02:28:20,800 actually put our weight on a roof and that's all in regards to the safety of it but the actual act 1051 02:28:20,800 --> 02:28:26,080 of cutting a roof which this is this is talking about roof ventilation which is all that stuff 1052 02:28:26,080 --> 02:28:31,840 combined but the act of actually cutting the hole okay yes this is safe i got to where now where do 1053 02:28:31,840 --> 02:28:37,920 i want to go now i'm going to cut a roof that might be the first step in that act of cutting a roof 1054 02:28:37,920 --> 02:28:43,680 but the whole ventilation of roof ventilation can bind together we have to consider safety first in 1055 02:28:43,680 --> 02:28:48,800 all of that i understand i guess i'm just trying to i'm trying to differentiate with what the book 1056 02:28:48,800 --> 02:28:53,200 says with what your common knowledge says by experience so your common knowledge by experience 1057 02:28:53,200 --> 02:28:57,440 is you have to make sure that it's safe you have to take all those other things into consideration 1058 02:28:57,440 --> 02:29:03,440 but yes from the book and it's talking just about the vent so the first step in making any 1059 02:29:03,440 --> 02:29:08,640 ventilation opening is to locate the proper site usually as close directly over the fire i mean 1060 02:29:08,640 --> 02:29:14,000 this this is what it sounds like to me if i'm i know all those other things i know you'll have 1061 02:29:14,000 --> 02:29:18,800 to take those into consideration but just like in the past i'm not i'm not necessarily or we 1062 02:29:18,800 --> 02:29:22,640 haven't necessarily been talking about experience we're talking about what's stated in the book 1063 02:29:23,440 --> 02:29:31,920 so i mean i'm i'm but in the book it clearly states in the second column as my as the 1064 02:29:31,920 --> 02:29:38,240 departmental response says the second column about four lines down that the safety of the members 1065 02:29:38,240 --> 02:29:45,280 performing the task is always the first concern right that's on page 371 but on page 259 1066 02:29:45,280 --> 02:29:51,760 it's saying something so i'm just looking at his appeal and he's making a valid point to me 1067 02:29:53,200 --> 02:30:02,400 well the the one thing on 259 it says and i'm reading from what exactly what you were saying 1068 02:30:02,400 --> 02:30:11,280 except that you left out two words and that is is safe usually as close to directly over the fire 1069 02:30:11,280 --> 02:30:21,520 as is safe so safety still comes into play even on 259 therefore safety still keep i mean there's 1070 02:30:21,520 --> 02:30:28,400 safety twice so i think again i think safety is is the primary concern doesn't say just go up and 1071 02:30:28,400 --> 02:30:33,760 cut a hole so it's location where it's safe right but you're using your you're using your common 1072 02:30:33,760 --> 02:30:38,480 knowledge so i'm using what's in the book you're using i'm using what's right here in the book 1073 02:30:38,480 --> 02:30:49,280 says it's safe when you read that when you read the sentence off of 259 you left the two words is 1074 02:30:49,280 --> 02:30:54,400 no i know out of your reading and so no i know i know what i know what it's saying but it's still 1075 02:30:54,400 --> 02:30:58,880 talking about well yeah obviously you're not going to cut it you're going to determine what's safe to 1076 02:30:58,880 --> 02:31:09,040 determine where where the proper site would be to cut so safety still becomes the best answer 1077 02:31:12,800 --> 02:31:20,080 i don't know i mean i i i mean i would make a motion that we accept both 1078 02:31:20,080 --> 02:31:28,960 dandy okay hang on one second you can make that i i you but i'm sorry are you asking for something 1079 02:31:28,960 --> 02:31:34,560 else yeah first i have to is there anyone like to speak in opposition to the to the appeal 1080 02:31:36,240 --> 02:31:46,880 mr pruett yes thank you thank you very much commissioner prada i believe if we read the 1081 02:31:46,880 --> 02:31:56,160 very next sentence on page 259 it's in parentheses and it says note for this text whenever i refer to 1082 02:31:56,160 --> 02:32:03,840 directly over the fire i mean as close to that area as is safely possible considering the 1083 02:32:03,840 --> 02:32:11,200 conditions of the roof the danger of collapse and other such factors so i think the author is 1084 02:32:11,200 --> 02:32:20,400 addressing safety in making that first step of the ventilation opening to locate the proper site you 1085 02:32:20,400 --> 02:32:25,920 can't locate the site unless it's safe to get on the roof and and he's reiterating that fact 1086 02:32:27,360 --> 02:32:36,960 and i hope hopefully i explain that to you no i agree i agree i'm trying to i'm trying to 1087 02:32:36,960 --> 02:32:44,320 differentiate between what i see is written and between what you know my experience yes and that's 1088 02:32:44,320 --> 02:32:50,320 why i brought up that second sentence on page 259 because the author is saying you you have to be 1089 02:32:50,320 --> 02:32:59,520 safe before you decide where to cut that hole you're welcome okay anyone else like to speak 1090 02:32:59,520 --> 02:33:09,280 in opposition to the appeal now we can entertain a motion on question 58 1091 02:33:18,480 --> 02:33:22,080 do you ask for the motion yes i'll still motion that we accept b and d 1092 02:33:22,080 --> 02:33:28,560 oh i'll second 1093 02:33:28,560 --> 02:33:35,840 okay motion is to accept b and d 1094 02:33:35,840 --> 02:33:39,440 discussion 1095 02:33:43,440 --> 02:33:52,480 now now i realize that i could have uh allow the motion to die for lack of a second and i 1096 02:33:52,480 --> 02:33:58,320 didn't do that because i wanted to make sure we had the opportunity to discuss any more things 1097 02:33:58,320 --> 02:34:07,280 but i do feel that um the um the safety is the primary issue for me rather than the location 1098 02:34:13,440 --> 02:34:21,840 okay all in the motion any any other discussion motion on the floor is to accept b and d 1099 02:34:21,840 --> 02:34:25,920 all in favor of that motion say aye 1100 02:34:25,920 --> 02:34:34,480 all opposed aye motion fails 1101 02:34:36,800 --> 02:34:44,080 i would entertain a alternative and alternative motion i make the motion that we sustain the key 1102 02:34:44,080 --> 02:34:46,880 and i'll second it 1103 02:34:46,880 --> 02:34:51,600 any discussion 1104 02:34:51,600 --> 02:34:59,840 all in favor say aye opposed 1105 02:35:06,800 --> 02:35:15,280 okay motion carries two to one next question is 67 1106 02:35:15,280 --> 02:35:22,800 and the appellant is 1107 02:35:22,800 --> 02:35:31,440 mr small and he's not here so i'm reading the appeal to okay um 1108 02:35:33,200 --> 02:35:40,320 question 67 says some of the most dangerous multiple dwellings to operate in operate in 1109 02:35:40,320 --> 02:35:49,520 during fire conditions are buildings blank answers to fill in that are with one or with more than one 1110 02:35:49,520 --> 02:35:59,200 open stairway b which have been renovated c with only one window per room d which have eight foot 1111 02:35:59,200 --> 02:36:09,600 ceilings the keyed answer is b which have been renovated the appellant says that quite that 1112 02:36:09,600 --> 02:36:17,120 answer a with more than one open stairway should be an alternative or in another answer 1113 02:36:19,120 --> 02:36:30,240 and again we're in the handbook of tactics page 400 well the the appellant says 400 1114 02:36:32,400 --> 02:36:53,920 and the the question comes from 391 so the um the appellant the appeal reads 1115 02:36:53,920 --> 02:37:02,000 if i can read it uh page 400 spends the whole page talking about how dangerous open stairways 1116 02:37:02,000 --> 02:37:09,040 are this is in the same chapter as the question was taken from question involves a single paragraph 1117 02:37:09,040 --> 02:37:15,680 although the all through the book the author talks about how dangerous open stairways are 1118 02:37:15,680 --> 02:37:18,240 uh says that there are 1119 02:37:18,240 --> 02:37:27,440 chimneys and the main exposure to protect uh the most serious situations are usually 1120 02:37:27,440 --> 02:37:35,920 encountered at fires in the down apartment is that right down apartment because the 1121 02:37:35,920 --> 02:37:43,520 chairs the stairs are the equipment are the equivalent of a cellar stair going down 1122 02:37:43,520 --> 02:37:51,120 are also a pic mentioned opening staircases on this page one paragraph about renovating buildings 1123 02:37:51,120 --> 02:37:56,560 question lacks detail to answer the question i didn't read that very well but basically 1124 02:37:58,400 --> 02:38:10,320 saying that about open stairways is the um should also be included so um fire response 1125 02:38:10,320 --> 02:38:19,920 to sustain the key verbatim in the book the answer is clear in the book at the top of the second 1126 02:38:19,920 --> 02:38:25,440 column answer a is stated as an option in the appeal is not correct the appeal refers to the 1127 02:38:25,440 --> 02:38:29,520 section of the book where it talks about the dangers of single open stairway going up or down 1128 02:38:29,520 --> 02:38:35,440 to a floor answer a states with more than one open stairway having multiple open stairways 1129 02:38:35,440 --> 02:38:40,720 to any given force gives victims more than one way out it also gives a primary path one of the 1130 02:38:40,720 --> 02:38:44,880 stairways for the heat and smoke to travel thus making additional stairways more tenable 1131 02:38:44,880 --> 02:38:50,880 questions of fire 1132 02:38:55,440 --> 02:39:05,840 uh 1133 02:39:05,840 --> 02:39:19,840 is there any instance in which um the appellant's concerns are validated 1134 02:39:26,400 --> 02:39:30,800 i would not disagree with the fact that open stairways can be dangerous 1135 02:39:30,800 --> 02:39:41,840 can be but it's not the most dangerous no 1136 02:39:56,000 --> 02:40:01,840 are the questions of fire 1137 02:40:01,840 --> 02:40:11,840 anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal 1138 02:40:11,840 --> 02:40:17,200 seeing no one 1139 02:40:17,200 --> 02:40:22,080 commissioners i would entertain a motion 1140 02:40:24,480 --> 02:40:26,960 i'll make the motion that we sustain the key 1141 02:40:26,960 --> 02:40:33,120 one second any discussion 1142 02:40:33,120 --> 02:40:42,640 no discussion for me all in favor of sustaining the key for 67 say aye aye 1143 02:40:42,640 --> 02:40:49,440 okay next is question 68 1144 02:40:54,480 --> 02:41:04,640 okay we have two appeals 1145 02:41:04,640 --> 02:41:18,640 question is 417 1146 02:41:24,640 --> 02:41:30,960 okay question says taxpayers may be broken down into two general classes new style and old style 1147 02:41:30,960 --> 02:41:38,880 the older style style taxpayer a are generally three to four floors in height 1148 02:41:38,880 --> 02:41:50,160 b has a tremendous amount of combustible materials in his construction c is always one floor in height 1149 02:41:50,160 --> 02:41:58,160 and d has become the most hazardous building for firefighters to operate in and we have 1150 02:41:58,160 --> 02:42:13,280 two appeals um mr miller i'll let you go first since since i don't want to read it unless i have 1151 02:42:13,280 --> 02:42:24,480 to okay um on this appeal if we uh look to the top of page 415 which is chapter 16 1152 02:42:24,480 --> 02:42:33,920 we see that the title is store fires slash taxpayers and strip malls so defining store 1153 02:42:33,920 --> 02:42:44,080 fires as taxpayers we'll see that in the text and if you'll flip over to 416 at the bottom of the 1154 02:42:44,080 --> 02:42:50,880 page left hand side we read there's an italicized taxpayer word it says the term used to describe a 1155 02:42:50,880 --> 02:42:57,520 row of stores and other occupancies such as local pizza parlor chinese food housed under a single 1156 02:42:57,520 --> 02:43:05,600 roof um although not recognized in any building code this description has come to be accepted 1157 02:43:05,600 --> 02:43:13,040 by the fire service as any multi-store commercial structure described previously that is built of 1158 02:43:13,040 --> 02:43:18,800 class three ordinary construction my point is multi-store commercial structure that's what a 1159 02:43:18,800 --> 02:43:26,400 taxpayer is um if we go back to the test question where they pulled the question was from 417 1160 02:43:26,400 --> 02:43:33,360 underneath styles of taxpayers it does call out new and old style and then the answer says old 1161 02:43:33,360 --> 02:43:40,480 style taxpayers have tremendous amount of combustible material in its construction i agree with that 1162 02:43:40,480 --> 02:43:47,840 it's right there but the effect of that is all that is written in those first two pages and the 1163 02:43:47,840 --> 02:43:57,200 entire chapter it talks about store buyers and taxpayers and just to single out old style if you 1164 02:43:57,200 --> 02:44:05,200 look at the figure six dash two where the old cars are there it says uh old taxpayers often hold as 1165 02:44:05,200 --> 02:44:14,000 many as 20 stores under one roof so taxpayers and stores are used up in the same way old tack if 1166 02:44:14,000 --> 02:44:19,920 there's a taxpayer buyer it's a store buyer and you can see that in the picture so if we look at 1167 02:44:19,920 --> 02:44:30,240 the graph at the top of page 416 it clearly shows uh 16.6 firefighters are killed for 100 000 buyers 1168 02:44:30,240 --> 02:44:37,120 and that's the highest amount of firefighters that are killed amongst those uh four occupancy 1169 02:44:37,120 --> 02:44:42,800 classifications or types of structures that that bar graph shows and that substantiates my answer 1170 02:44:43,520 --> 02:44:48,000 of them being the most hazardous i think that's what the answer was i'm something like that i 1171 02:44:48,000 --> 02:44:53,280 don't have those but i tried to remember what you read that is the most hazardous for firefighters 1172 02:44:53,280 --> 02:45:00,080 to fight that store fires kill more and even in the text it says four times more than residential 1173 02:45:00,080 --> 02:45:06,880 and it also lays out four different types of structures there so i would say it's even the 1174 02:45:06,880 --> 02:45:11,280 best answer due to safety if you looked at all those answers you said which one's going to keep 1175 02:45:11,280 --> 02:45:16,960 us safe it's going to be the answer that tells you that's the most hazardous store most hazardous 1176 02:45:16,960 --> 02:45:21,680 place to work is on a store fire because it kills more people i would say it's even a better answer 1177 02:45:21,680 --> 02:45:35,680 than what we have key okay thank you sir um mr small says most dangerous buildings are taxpayers 1178 02:45:36,400 --> 02:45:45,840 many are both string uh which the page in question the page the question is on references 1179 02:45:45,840 --> 02:45:51,280 that they are the most dangerous it also has a picture a pic of a fire where firefighters died 1180 02:45:51,840 --> 02:46:09,600 answer d is talked about on the page in multiple places i response oh i'm sorry questions of the 1181 02:46:09,600 --> 02:46:18,560 appellant got ahead of myself that is there an instance where it specifically says 1182 02:46:20,000 --> 02:46:28,320 the answer that she gave that it's the most hazardous to operate in he's referencing figure 16 1 1183 02:46:28,320 --> 02:46:40,640 on page 4 16 i see 16 1 i was just looking for the specific terminology i'm sorry 1184 02:46:42,480 --> 02:46:51,840 i had a question so can can stores be considered um new style can someone build a new commercial 1185 02:46:51,840 --> 02:46:58,560 development and it be considered new style as well or does it always have to be the old style 1186 02:46:58,560 --> 02:47:02,080 i'm thinking of all these you know things that are popping up all over the place around teasley 1187 02:47:02,080 --> 02:47:10,800 they meet your requirement that says you know pizza parlor chinese food like all the multiple 1188 02:47:10,800 --> 02:47:13,920 occupancy whatever can those be considered new style 1189 02:47:13,920 --> 02:47:26,080 sir class three construction yes ma'am okay so okay then that kind of for me that kind of 1190 02:47:26,080 --> 02:47:28,160 takes away the connection that you're making 1191 02:47:28,160 --> 02:47:37,760 okay i the uh excerpt under the graph bar graph up there just talks about commercial buildings 1192 02:47:37,760 --> 02:47:44,560 four times more deadly to firefighters and residential so i just pointed out old style 1193 02:47:44,560 --> 02:47:50,000 just because that's what that's what the answer was i'm including it in all of it i mean because 1194 02:47:50,000 --> 02:47:55,760 the bar graph doesn't call out old style i just wanted to point out that if i don't know what 1195 02:47:55,760 --> 02:48:00,320 the department's going to say and if they tried to weed me out by pointing just the older style i 1196 02:48:00,320 --> 02:48:05,680 wanted to make that connection but i'm not singling it out because it does include new and old saw 1197 02:48:05,680 --> 02:48:12,880 because taxpayers is both right taxpayers both but i guess because the question says the older 1198 02:48:12,880 --> 02:48:19,200 style taxpayer you have to make a connection only with that older style taxpayer i get what you're 1199 02:48:19,200 --> 02:48:23,600 saying all right thank you 1200 02:48:23,600 --> 02:48:28,240 any other questions 1201 02:48:30,960 --> 02:48:37,600 okay fire response but to sustain the key the answer is clearly stated in the book 1202 02:48:37,600 --> 02:48:42,560 the book does not state that they are the most hazardous buildings as stated in answer d making 1203 02:48:42,560 --> 02:48:53,040 this answer false questions of fire okay even though it doesn't state that it's the most 1204 02:48:53,040 --> 02:49:06,320 hazardous is it the most hazardous type of building is that where most of your hazards are 1205 02:49:06,320 --> 02:49:16,880 no may i may i so my i i'm thinking through this too so they're saying the older style 1206 02:49:16,880 --> 02:49:21,200 taxpayer has become the most hazardous building but that's not what it's saying it's saying that 1207 02:49:21,200 --> 02:49:28,000 the that the stores are the most hazard buildings and under storage you can have new style and old 1208 02:49:28,000 --> 02:49:37,600 style i think that's the correct response there commissioner that the question actually asked 1209 02:49:37,600 --> 02:49:42,880 for the distinction between the new style and old style and to say that commercial structures 1210 02:49:42,880 --> 02:49:49,440 are the most dangerous i would concede that point however it's trying to make a distinction 1211 02:49:49,440 --> 02:49:56,480 between two styles of taxpayers not that doesn't include super stores or or malls or you know all 1212 02:49:56,480 --> 02:50:01,920 these other commercial occupancies that would be included in that big global term commercial 1213 02:50:01,920 --> 02:50:11,760 occupancy it's asking specifically about old style taxpayers well the one thing that i haven't heard 1214 02:50:11,760 --> 02:50:19,440 us mentioned i haven't heard us in the discussion is the amount of combustible materials in the 1215 02:50:19,440 --> 02:50:30,160 construction doesn't why does an old old style taxpayer is it is it because of what the materials 1216 02:50:30,160 --> 02:50:36,480 are because they're old style they had different materials and rather than the new styles which 1217 02:50:36,480 --> 02:50:43,840 makes may or may not make them more hazardous but is the materials the the fire suggested answer or 1218 02:50:43,840 --> 02:50:50,880 the text text test writers answer is has a tremendous amount of combustible material 1219 02:50:50,880 --> 02:50:56,640 so address that aspect of it if you will please chief skipper so you can say old style construction 1220 02:50:56,640 --> 02:51:02,080 is mostly wood framed it's going to have especially class three is going to be a masonry exterior or 1221 02:51:02,080 --> 02:51:08,240 masonry walls and then all the framing would be done with wood and then new style would be like 1222 02:51:08,240 --> 02:51:12,960 aluminum studs that you see sometimes these metal you know that they have a masonry or brick veneer 1223 02:51:12,960 --> 02:51:19,520 exterior and then the actual framing of the structure is going to be out of some sort of 1224 02:51:19,520 --> 02:51:26,320 metal component and it doesn't have to be a wooden frame so there's inherently going to be more 1225 02:51:26,320 --> 02:51:42,320 combustibles in the framing and the building of an old style taxpayer so that makes them less hazardous 1226 02:51:42,320 --> 02:51:44,240 yeah 1227 02:51:44,240 --> 02:51:55,520 i don't i'm not going to say it makes it less or more hazardous it doesn't make them 1228 02:51:55,520 --> 02:52:01,280 the most hazardous i don't think you can draw that line and say that with 1229 02:52:01,280 --> 02:52:07,840 any sort of study that would support that statement or the text from the book 1230 02:52:07,840 --> 02:52:22,240 okay mr miller yes sir um on page 418 in the second column that first paragraph 1231 02:52:22,960 --> 02:52:30,000 it reads newer style taxpayers face some same dangers of fire spread through the cock lock 1232 02:52:30,000 --> 02:52:38,080 as older ones do in addition there's a likely problem of early collapse of unprotected steel 1233 02:52:38,080 --> 02:52:42,640 route so if we're trying to draw a distinction between one being safer than the other that's 1234 02:52:42,640 --> 02:52:48,240 just not the case and i would say that's why in the bar graph there it didn't make that distinction 1235 02:52:48,240 --> 02:52:54,880 either we're talking about complete newer and older all taxpayers are grouping there 1236 02:52:54,880 --> 02:53:03,440 i just wanted to point that out that that construction is just as dangerous according to the text 1237 02:53:03,440 --> 02:53:07,600 the new style is just as dangerous 1238 02:53:07,600 --> 02:53:15,120 yes on 418 it talks about the some of the they're faced with the same dangers of fire spread through 1239 02:53:15,120 --> 02:53:21,200 the cock lock that they they have a common attic all the way across because of the because of that 1240 02:53:21,200 --> 02:53:28,160 material it can collapse even earlier so then so then d would be wrong then because um your 1241 02:53:28,160 --> 02:53:32,880 question you're saying the older style taxpayer has become the most hazardous so you just proved 1242 02:53:32,880 --> 02:53:38,880 your you just proved the opposite that you're saying that both new style new style can collapse 1243 02:53:38,880 --> 02:53:48,400 even faster i mean did i understand that wrong no you probably did i'm just trying to make 1244 02:53:48,400 --> 02:53:55,600 i don't the the bar graph doesn't do does not divide them up and 1245 02:53:55,600 --> 02:54:04,160 but the reason that this it talks about this the chapter is named store fires taxpayers and strip 1246 02:54:04,160 --> 02:54:09,920 malls and it talks about this for three pages and the question is this one excerpt of older style 1247 02:54:09,920 --> 02:54:18,640 taxpayers so what i'm saying is that combustible construction leads to answer d also being correct 1248 02:54:18,640 --> 02:54:24,240 the store fires are most hazardous it says fire fighters store fires or fire killers is the first 1249 02:54:24,240 --> 02:54:31,920 sentence four times more likely to kill so b leads to d being correct right b leads to d being also 1250 02:54:31,920 --> 02:54:37,920 correct but b is the best answer yes ma'am i say it's the best answer because of the safety factor 1251 02:54:37,920 --> 02:54:43,200 you have to know this and the text speaks more to that than it does combustible construction okay 1252 02:54:43,200 --> 02:54:52,320 would anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal 1253 02:54:59,840 --> 02:55:03,840 oh there you are yes sir be sure and unmute yourself 1254 02:55:03,840 --> 02:55:11,520 morning clint stevenson um i i'm not sure that i even know what the question is anymore 1255 02:55:11,520 --> 02:55:17,840 can can we reread the question and the answer choices so that and then i'm going to try to 1256 02:55:17,840 --> 02:55:25,200 walk through all those answer choices for you if i can i can find if i can find the question 1257 02:55:25,920 --> 02:55:32,640 i can read the question okay it says taxpayers may be broken down into two general classes 1258 02:55:32,640 --> 02:55:39,600 new style and old style the older style taxpayer blank that's the question 1259 02:55:39,600 --> 02:55:48,400 so the older style taxpayer are generally three to four floors in height the older style taxpayer 1260 02:55:48,400 --> 02:55:54,880 has a tremendous amount of combustible material in its construction the older style taxpayer is 1261 02:55:54,880 --> 02:56:00,800 always one floor in height the older style taxpayer has become the most hazardous building for 1262 02:56:00,800 --> 02:56:13,040 firefighters to operate in so if i okay so really my my thing is if you read it that way the older 1263 02:56:13,040 --> 02:56:17,840 style taxpayer has become the most hazardous building for firefighters to operate in that is 1264 02:56:17,840 --> 02:56:23,920 a false statement the only true statement there is the older style taxpayer has a tremendous amount 1265 02:56:23,920 --> 02:56:28,960 of combustible material in its construction and that is directly quoted from the left agreed 1266 02:56:28,960 --> 02:56:34,240 that's the answer that they're looking for right i mean that's the key to answer 1267 02:56:34,240 --> 02:56:42,960 yes correct i mean you can make a lot of things inclusive draw enough parallels but i i just don't 1268 02:56:42,960 --> 02:56:47,200 think the test question supports any of those answers that's all i've got i just couldn't 1269 02:56:47,200 --> 02:56:53,680 remember what we were talking about yeah are you open for a motion or are we still discussing 1270 02:56:54,160 --> 02:56:59,680 i think we're ready i think we're ready for a motion now okay i'll mention that we sustain the 1271 02:56:59,680 --> 02:57:01,760 key i'll second 1272 02:57:01,760 --> 02:57:08,400 moved and seconded to sustain the key any discussion 1273 02:57:08,400 --> 02:57:17,760 uh yes by by taking the time to go through items on page 418 helped me to make that decision 1274 02:57:17,760 --> 02:57:26,160 so thank you for doing that okay ready to vote ready to vote all in favor of sustaining the key 1275 02:57:26,160 --> 02:57:56,000 of 68 say aye opposed question 69 and we have three appeals okay sorry okay let's go with 1276 02:57:56,000 --> 02:58:02,800 mr pruett we haven't seen heard it from him in a while so yes sir you can go first thank you very 1277 02:58:02,800 --> 02:58:10,640 much other than what i turned in on the written appeal the only thing i would add three things 1278 02:58:10,640 --> 02:58:19,680 that we have to consider the author the test maker and the test taker the author gave us one 1279 02:58:19,680 --> 02:58:28,960 definition on page 155 and by the time he got to page 456 he forgot about that and included a 1280 02:58:28,960 --> 02:58:37,760 second definition that is a little bit broader possibly and so when we moved to the test maker 1281 02:58:37,760 --> 02:58:46,480 he skipped over page 155 to begin with and only wrote the test based on page 456 1282 02:58:47,600 --> 02:58:56,560 so now we move to the text test taker that's all of us sitting before you virtually and um for me 1283 02:58:56,560 --> 02:59:07,760 my recollection of the memorized material stopped at page 155 so that's why i'm asking you to approve 1284 02:59:07,760 --> 02:59:29,920 and allow both answers from both pages 155 and 456 and you're saying c correct you're saying 1285 02:59:29,920 --> 02:59:36,160 another answer c is also correct i believe that's what's on my okay yes that's correct just checking 1286 02:59:36,160 --> 02:59:40,400 yes all right mr johnson i'm going to go to you next 1287 02:59:40,400 --> 02:59:47,760 all right thank you uh to start with can i have you read the question please 1288 02:59:47,760 --> 02:59:58,160 considering high-rise fires it has been said the longer the reflex time is 1289 02:59:58,160 --> 03:00:07,440 the larger the fire you're likely to face reflex time is a the amount of time it takes to board 1290 03:00:07,440 --> 03:00:16,160 apparatus respond to the building and enter the building with proper equipment b response time 1291 03:00:16,160 --> 03:00:23,600 hose laying time and fire control time c the amount of time to respond and get to the fire 1292 03:00:23,600 --> 03:00:31,600 location and d elapsed time from receipt of the alarm until an effective stream is flowing on the 1293 03:00:31,600 --> 03:00:39,600 fire the keyed answer is d elapsed time from the receipt of the alarm until the effective 1294 03:00:39,600 --> 03:00:48,160 stream is flowing flowing on the fire okay thank you i'm with mr pruitt on this the book specifically 1295 03:00:48,160 --> 03:00:54,320 has two different definitions that are called out on the different pages one on page 155 like 1296 03:00:54,320 --> 03:01:01,280 he talked about in the other on page 456 the one on 456 is kind of an all-encompassing thing it says 1297 03:01:01,280 --> 03:01:05,760 reflex time is a total time elapsed from receipt of the alarm until an effective stream is flowing 1298 03:01:05,760 --> 03:01:13,200 on the fire however on page 155 the part about an effective stream flowing on the fire is not there 1299 03:01:13,920 --> 03:01:18,560 we're left with two different definitions in the book and the source material 1300 03:01:18,560 --> 03:01:26,640 so i believe the answer a in addition to what they're saying c and then in addition to what 1301 03:01:26,640 --> 03:01:34,160 the test was keyed as d are all correct applicable answers a says the amount of time it takes to 1302 03:01:34,160 --> 03:01:39,040 board the apparatus respond to the building and enter the building with proper equipment that's 1303 03:01:39,040 --> 03:01:43,200 what i think should be an answer also the reason i say that is because all of those things are 1304 03:01:43,200 --> 03:01:51,280 included in the definition on one 456 the total definition given for reflex time but then also on 1305 03:01:51,280 --> 03:01:57,040 the definition on 155 leaves out the flowing of an effective fire stream so we're left with these two 1306 03:01:57,040 --> 03:02:01,520 different definitions and we have to do our best to consolidate these two definitions into something 1307 03:02:01,520 --> 03:02:06,640 that makes sense to us that matches with what's on the test all of these answers that have been 1308 03:02:06,640 --> 03:02:15,280 discussed are appropriate answers when given that dilemma okay 1309 03:02:15,280 --> 03:02:20,080 mr pazano 1310 03:02:20,080 --> 03:02:23,760 you thought i forgot about you didn't you 1311 03:02:23,760 --> 03:02:32,960 um pretty much the same um argument that i think was made by mr prude uh the definition comes from 1312 03:02:32,960 --> 03:02:44,640 page 456 and um and i my appeal is to um have answer c also added to correct answers um the 1313 03:02:44,640 --> 03:02:50,480 definition is on 456 uh reflex time total time elapsed from the receipt of the alarm until 1314 03:02:50,480 --> 03:02:56,960 effective stream is flowing on the fire and it includes response and setup time and then again 1315 03:02:56,960 --> 03:03:12,640 we turn to 155 and and it and it just reiterates that okay thank you question of the appellants 1316 03:03:18,640 --> 03:03:31,440 i have a question uh mr johnson and point me specifically to where your your 1317 03:03:31,440 --> 03:03:39,360 your answer a the amount of time it takes to board apparatus respond to the fire and 1318 03:03:39,360 --> 03:03:46,320 enter the building with proper equipment um where where is your justification coming from again 1319 03:03:49,200 --> 03:03:55,760 all right if you look at the definition on page 456 it says reflex time is the total time elapsed 1320 03:03:55,760 --> 03:04:01,120 from the receipt of the alarm so you receive an alarm to fire station that's answer d 1321 03:04:01,120 --> 03:04:09,920 that's answer d right i'm okay i'm trying to give my justification okay so it's the time it takes 1322 03:04:09,920 --> 03:04:14,240 to board the apparatus once you receive that alarm that is after the receipt so that falls 1323 03:04:14,240 --> 03:04:20,080 within the parameters of the definition on page 456 you have to also respond to the building 1324 03:04:20,080 --> 03:04:25,440 and enter the building with the proper equipment that also falls within the parameters of the 1325 03:04:25,440 --> 03:04:32,480 definition on page 456 and that's also reiterated on the definition in the definition from page 155 1326 03:04:33,600 --> 03:04:44,800 so my answer of a that i put all of the stuff within that answer falls in those definitions 1327 03:04:44,800 --> 03:05:03,120 okay any other questions i have a question uh of the department please 1328 03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:11,920 we aren't there yet oh i'm sorry you're so impatient anyone else have questions for the appellant 1329 03:05:11,920 --> 03:05:20,720 all right just so i can understand uh so the says alarm time until effective stream is flowing on 1330 03:05:20,720 --> 03:05:25,440 the fire that does not mean that's when y'all start that's when the stream starts right that's 1331 03:05:25,440 --> 03:05:35,200 not that the fire is under control yet is that right thank you okay fire response um any other 1332 03:05:35,200 --> 03:05:45,840 i'm good okay fire response we suggest you accept answers c and d are the only correct answers answer 1333 03:05:45,840 --> 03:05:51,200 d is correct and is stated directly in the book as stated in two appeals page 155 states that it 1334 03:05:51,200 --> 03:05:57,120 takes to respond to the building and set up operations is very close to answer c answer a 1335 03:05:57,120 --> 03:06:03,920 is not correct because it simply states enter the building it does not refer to setting up 1336 03:06:03,920 --> 03:06:16,640 fire operations or flowing water so your recommendation is to accept c and d yes sir 1337 03:06:21,680 --> 03:06:29,840 okay so here's my here's my devil's advocate on page 155 it says reflex time that it so that is 1338 03:06:29,840 --> 03:06:36,640 um that it takes to respond to the building and set up for operation it doesn't say start the stream 1339 03:06:36,640 --> 03:06:45,920 on 155 that's why we'd voted to accept answer c commissioner it's answer a that we did not accept 1340 03:06:46,480 --> 03:06:51,200 i understand that but i'm making a i'm making an argument that you should accept a because on page 1341 03:06:51,200 --> 03:06:58,080 155 it says that it takes to respond uh that it takes to respond so reflex time that it takes to 1342 03:06:58,080 --> 03:07:02,480 respond to the building and set up for operations you're saying the reason you didn't accept a is 1343 03:07:02,480 --> 03:07:10,960 because this it's only saying entering but it's with proper equipment yes so it excludes the time 1344 03:07:10,960 --> 03:07:15,680 it actually takes to set up that equipment the time it takes for me to get from the first floor 1345 03:07:15,680 --> 03:07:22,240 to the fourth floor tie into the standpipe charge my hose line and actually be set up for fire 1346 03:07:22,240 --> 03:07:32,800 operations is excluded from answer a okay you're saying that didn't see the amount of time to 1347 03:07:32,800 --> 03:07:41,280 respond and get to the fire location yes the fire location is on the fourth floor not at the front 1348 03:07:41,280 --> 03:07:52,560 door to get to the fire location but where's your setup i'm on c commissioner prado go ahead and make 1349 03:07:52,560 --> 03:08:06,000 your recommendation we accept a c and d second just took over my meeting 1350 03:08:06,000 --> 03:08:14,720 and the only reason so the only reason i was saying not b is because b says to the that the 1351 03:08:14,720 --> 03:08:20,560 fire is under control that was my question for does the it was when the big is it when you begin 1352 03:08:21,280 --> 03:08:26,000 when the stream begins or when it's controlled so c b is the only one that shouldn't be accepted i 1353 03:08:26,000 --> 03:08:31,360 make a motion that we accept ac well commissioner we wouldn't open the fire stream at the entry of 1354 03:08:31,360 --> 03:08:36,000 the building we're going to open the fire stream when we get to the fire location it might be it 1355 03:08:36,000 --> 03:08:41,520 might be on the 10th floor so that time it takes a fire company to get to the 10th floor is excluded 1356 03:08:41,520 --> 03:08:53,200 from answer a yeah i think that's splitting hairs i just still make a motion that we accept that's 1357 03:08:53,200 --> 03:08:58,320 that's a lot of time i mean that takes a fire company a lot of time to go from the first floor 1358 03:08:58,320 --> 03:09:03,200 to the 10th floor we're talking possibly five minutes or more 1359 03:09:06,640 --> 03:09:11,680 that it takes to respond to the building and set up for operations 1360 03:09:11,680 --> 03:09:17,120 do you do any setup whenever you get to the whenever you get to the fire and you're on the 1361 03:09:17,120 --> 03:09:21,600 first floor you guys are just pulling up is there any setup that you do downstairs before you go up 1362 03:09:21,600 --> 03:09:25,840 to the 10th floor where the first arriving fire company goes to the fire floor and then they set 1363 03:09:25,840 --> 03:09:30,160 up for fire attack on the fire so there's nothing that you can do on the floor there's nothing that 1364 03:09:30,160 --> 03:09:35,520 you do right when you drive up well we're going to talk we're going to talk to people and stuff 1365 03:09:35,520 --> 03:09:39,760 like that but we're not we're not deploying hose lines or those kinds of we're going to take all 1366 03:09:39,760 --> 03:09:44,800 of our tools and all of our equipment to the fire floor where the actual fire is to actually 1367 03:09:44,800 --> 03:09:46,000 put water on the fire 1368 03:09:46,000 --> 03:09:57,120 i mean the the kind of core concept of this is the fact that it takes all that additional time 1369 03:09:57,120 --> 03:10:01,840 to get to the fire because it is 10 stories up five stories up 1370 03:10:05,920 --> 03:10:10,720 okay so can i have the appellate can you respond to that why are you saying that we should still 1371 03:10:10,720 --> 03:10:17,200 accept a then if now that he's explained that but there's no right when you guys arrive there's no 1372 03:10:17,200 --> 03:10:25,040 setup there so and it does say in the book even on page 155 it is saying that it takes to respond 1373 03:10:25,040 --> 03:10:28,880 to the building and set up for operations and from what i'm understanding there is no setup 1374 03:10:28,880 --> 03:10:34,880 when you drive up there's only setup when you get to the actual place i would love to know 1375 03:10:34,880 --> 03:10:38,560 i would love to respond to that the fire is happening yeah i would love to respond to that 1376 03:10:38,560 --> 03:10:43,040 any high rise uh fire that you pull up to there is going to be set up when you initially pull up on 1377 03:10:43,040 --> 03:10:48,720 that scene how are you going to get water to that stand pipe if you don't have setup time to get 1378 03:10:48,720 --> 03:10:53,840 your hose connected from your engine to that stand pipe to support that sprinkler system there is a 1379 03:10:53,840 --> 03:10:59,200 lot of setup that takes place not only at the fire floor but that also takes place at the ground 1380 03:10:59,200 --> 03:11:03,520 level when you pull up so for him to say there's no setup when you first pull up that's not an 1381 03:11:03,520 --> 03:11:08,720 accurate statement okay so now i think everybody's agreed that we should include c and d so we're 1382 03:11:08,720 --> 03:11:14,000 trying to decide should a be included in that so the amount of time that it takes to board apparatus 1383 03:11:14,000 --> 03:11:21,760 okay respond to the building and enter the building with proper equipment correct but his say he's 1384 03:11:21,760 --> 03:11:28,000 saying that to enter the building with proper equipment i'm still gonna latch on another five 1385 03:11:28,000 --> 03:11:37,040 ten minutes to set up before i before water can start flowing that's right right it depends on 1386 03:11:37,040 --> 03:11:40,720 where the fire is that i understand what he's saying but i also understand that there is setup 1387 03:11:40,720 --> 03:11:44,240 that takes place not only at the ground or fire floor but at the ground floor as well 1388 03:11:44,240 --> 03:11:51,760 so included everything that i told you um that falls within the parameters of that definition 1389 03:11:51,760 --> 03:11:57,600 is involved in answer a it all comes straight out of that definition of reflex time and there is 1390 03:11:57,600 --> 03:12:02,480 setup that takes up once you that uh there is setup that takes place once you pull up on scene 1391 03:12:02,480 --> 03:12:08,800 it's all all there my issue so then if we're talking about setup to enter the building with 1392 03:12:08,800 --> 03:12:12,960 proper equipment i understand that we're gonna need five to more minutes to set up the proper 1393 03:12:12,960 --> 03:12:17,440 equipment that i just took in there but then if i look at c the amount of time to respond 1394 03:12:17,440 --> 03:12:21,600 and get to the fire location there's no there's nothing in there talking about preparation there 1395 03:12:21,600 --> 03:12:26,240 either okay so once you get to that fire location where is the setup time mentioned in answer c 1396 03:12:27,040 --> 03:12:33,200 that's my whole point so if i need to also accept a yeah then you have to connect to a 1397 03:12:33,200 --> 03:12:40,240 stand pipe once you get to the fire floor so they're set up at both both things so i would 1398 03:12:40,240 --> 03:12:45,920 say we either accept a c or d that's one option or we just sustain the key and say d is the only 1399 03:12:45,920 --> 03:12:56,560 correct answer we have emotional um is there anyone love would like to speak in opposition 1400 03:12:57,280 --> 03:12:59,760 to the appeal mr die 1401 03:12:59,760 --> 03:13:10,640 yes sir oh i've just uh there there's obviously one best choice and that's what we were talking 1402 03:13:10,640 --> 03:13:16,000 about earlier even in my field there's always a best choice and d is obviously the best choice 1403 03:13:16,000 --> 03:13:20,720 there's no argument about it those other ones you can you can fluff it how you want but that's not 1404 03:13:20,720 --> 03:13:28,720 the correct answer that that's just my personal opinion that's all here okay mr pruett 1405 03:13:28,720 --> 03:13:38,160 yes thank you if we accept a that means that we can grab all of our equipment and just step 1406 03:13:38,160 --> 03:13:45,280 right inside the door of the fire building and hope that the fire goes out we're not setting up 1407 03:13:45,280 --> 03:13:51,600 getting prepared ready to fight fire we're just okay let's take our equipment in we're done that 1408 03:13:51,600 --> 03:14:00,880 it doesn't work that way and um so that's all i want to say so you see my concern is that then 1409 03:14:00,880 --> 03:14:05,600 then because if you're making that rationale for a then i can make that rationale also for c the 1410 03:14:05,600 --> 03:14:09,120 amount of time to respond and get to the fire location so that means i don't even have to take 1411 03:14:09,120 --> 03:14:14,560 my equipment down i can just get to the location and it's going to go away so so with that rational 1412 03:14:14,560 --> 03:14:20,240 my my thinking is still then why did the department why the department saying that we can accept c and 1413 03:14:20,240 --> 03:14:30,000 d so my only thing is if we're accepting c we accept a or we just say d and not accept the fire 1414 03:14:30,000 --> 03:14:42,240 department's recommendation to accept c and d but my input is this d would probably be my preferred 1415 03:14:42,240 --> 03:14:51,440 choice however if you go to to page 155 you you you have the language there in c but also if you're 1416 03:14:51,440 --> 03:15:00,240 going to do c you have to do a and and that's why i chose a c and d otherwise you just have to go with d 1417 03:15:00,240 --> 03:15:04,480 very good 1418 03:15:11,440 --> 03:15:15,600 okay motion is on the floor is to accept a c and d 1419 03:15:15,600 --> 03:15:20,800 is there any discussion 1420 03:15:20,800 --> 03:15:32,080 yes well the clock starts when the alarm comes in the clock stops when the fire 1421 03:15:32,080 --> 03:15:37,680 start when we start putting out the fire i think d is the only correct answer 1422 03:15:39,280 --> 03:15:44,320 i disagreed with the with the fire response when i when i read this question 1423 03:15:44,320 --> 03:15:53,680 i've done that before but i to me that's the and it includes all of these other things i mean the 1424 03:15:53,680 --> 03:16:00,400 real the the real issue is putting putting water on the fire when the hose is flowing 1425 03:16:00,400 --> 03:16:07,440 and that's where the the stopwatch stops the reflex watch stops when you start putting water 1426 03:16:07,440 --> 03:16:14,160 on the fire whether it's in the front door on the 10th floor or wherever i mean the longer you take 1427 03:16:14,160 --> 03:16:20,000 to get to the 10th floor and get set up the more the fire is is going and that's what happens on 1428 03:16:20,000 --> 03:16:27,760 that's what he's talking about on 55 is you're giving the fire the advantage but we're really 1429 03:16:27,760 --> 03:16:35,360 talking about from beginning to reflex time meaning from the beginning of the of the event 1430 03:16:35,920 --> 03:16:39,840 to the time when we start putting the putting water on the fire so 1431 03:16:39,840 --> 03:16:42,480 in my estimation d is the only correct answer 1432 03:16:42,480 --> 03:16:50,960 call the question okay 1433 03:16:50,960 --> 03:17:00,320 motion on the floor is to accept a c and d all in favor say aye 1434 03:17:01,520 --> 03:17:06,160 aye opposed aye 1435 03:17:06,160 --> 03:17:22,000 motion the the now we accept a c and d for the two to one vote okay next is question 83 1436 03:17:29,280 --> 03:17:35,520 and 1437 03:17:35,520 --> 03:17:38,960 three appellates 1438 03:17:38,960 --> 03:17:54,560 i don't think mr whelan is here mr whelan is here he is not okay uh so we have mr stevenson 1439 03:17:56,720 --> 03:18:03,760 and mr pesano mr stevenson 1440 03:18:03,760 --> 03:18:11,200 thank you uh again i'm gonna follow everybody else's pattern could you all read the question 1441 03:18:11,200 --> 03:18:12,000 for me please 1442 03:18:12,000 --> 03:18:21,200 question 83 says blank are those that fall within management prerogative 1443 03:18:23,840 --> 03:18:33,040 fill in the blank answers are a prohibited subjects b arbitrary subjects c mandatory subjects d 1444 03:18:33,040 --> 03:18:39,760 permissive subjects so again the question says blank are those that fall within management 1445 03:18:39,760 --> 03:18:50,560 prerogative the keyed answer is d permissive subjects okay uh i'm just going to go over my 1446 03:18:50,560 --> 03:18:55,520 written appeal really quickly i think the question itself is not specific enough and 1447 03:18:55,520 --> 03:18:59,840 what it's trying to get the the answer that they have keyed 1448 03:18:59,840 --> 03:19:05,840 the originally keyed answer states that permissive subjects are those that 1449 03:19:05,840 --> 03:19:10,240 fall within a management prerogative the test question eliminates the word typically 1450 03:19:10,240 --> 03:19:13,840 that's used in the source book the use of the word typically implies that permissive subjects 1451 03:19:13,840 --> 03:19:19,280 fall within a management prerogative most of the time but not always it's on the same page 1452 03:19:19,280 --> 03:19:26,320 in the source material as the answer was derived um prohibited subjects which is answer a it says 1453 03:19:26,320 --> 03:19:31,360 management is permitted to unilaterally change a prohibited subject without having to negotiate 1454 03:19:31,360 --> 03:19:39,600 and if you can unilaterally change something it is clearly within your prerogative to change it 1455 03:19:39,600 --> 03:19:46,320 so i know what the answer that they were looking for and if they had just added a couple words to 1456 03:19:46,320 --> 03:19:50,640 the test question they could have gotten it down to that but with the answer or the question the 1457 03:19:50,640 --> 03:19:56,720 way it's written i feel like that both those answers are acceptable answers that's all i've 1458 03:19:56,720 --> 03:20:04,160 got you mean with the addition of the word typically no so if they so if something is 1459 03:20:04,160 --> 03:20:14,720 within your prerogative you may decide or you can absolutely decide so the typically thing that kind 1460 03:20:14,720 --> 03:20:20,640 of i wrote that in the appeal that kind of takes you off topic but i guess what i'm trying to say 1461 03:20:20,640 --> 03:20:26,560 is that if something is a prohibited subject then it is always within their prerogative 1462 03:20:26,560 --> 03:20:29,920 not just typically does that make sense 1463 03:20:29,920 --> 03:20:35,120 and so i think they should accept both answers 1464 03:20:35,120 --> 03:20:42,800 permissive subjects and prohibited subjects because they are always 1465 03:20:43,440 --> 03:20:45,520 both of those are within management prerogative 1466 03:20:45,520 --> 03:21:03,520 okay let's let's go into the other appellants mr pazano 1467 03:21:03,520 --> 03:21:12,320 um i for for my appeal i pretty much um use the same argument that um clint just used 1468 03:21:13,520 --> 03:21:17,200 basically i think the hang up there was the management prerogative 1469 03:21:17,200 --> 03:21:26,240 gives you the idea that um management is permitted to change those um whether they want or 1470 03:21:26,240 --> 03:21:32,320 don't want to and just the paragraph right before it management is permitted to unilaterally change 1471 03:21:32,320 --> 03:21:41,520 a prohibited subject subject and that's why um i my appeal is to accept um the other answer as well 1472 03:21:43,680 --> 03:21:54,240 um okay mr mr whelan's appeal is basically the same thing today page 339 it reads 1473 03:21:54,240 --> 03:22:00,480 management is permitted to unilaterally change a prohibited subject without first having to 1474 03:22:00,480 --> 03:22:06,320 negotiate that is management's prerogative prohibited subjects is one of the answers 1475 03:22:06,320 --> 03:22:08,320 it should be correct in addition to d 1476 03:22:11,680 --> 03:22:18,720 now other questions other questions 1477 03:22:18,720 --> 03:22:32,000 hearing none 1478 03:22:32,000 --> 03:22:37,200 fire response 1479 03:22:39,680 --> 03:22:44,800 but to sustain the key this question must be read carefully the question states blank are those that 1480 03:22:44,800 --> 03:22:49,760 fall within management prerogative fall within the management prerogative is the key to the 1481 03:22:49,760 --> 03:22:55,920 question these four words mean that managing management has the right to negotiate a specific 1482 03:22:55,920 --> 03:23:00,400 subject and they can choose to engage in negotiations or not to engage in negotiations 1483 03:23:00,400 --> 03:23:07,040 for a specific subject answer a is not correct because managed management does not have the right 1484 03:23:07,040 --> 03:23:12,320 to negotiate these subjects even if they wanted to b and c are not even asked to be considered 1485 03:23:12,320 --> 03:23:18,320 answer d is the only correct answer because permissive subjects both sides have the prerogative 1486 03:23:18,320 --> 03:23:24,720 to engage in negotiations or not management and the bargaining unit must both both must agree to 1487 03:23:24,720 --> 03:23:30,000 negotiate on a subject it is also both sides prerogative to say that they do not want to 1488 03:23:30,000 --> 03:23:42,720 negotiate or on specific permissive subjects questions of fire 1489 03:23:42,720 --> 03:23:50,320 could you give me an example of a prohibited subject 1490 03:24:00,960 --> 03:24:03,840 i cannot give you one off the top of my head commissioner without 1491 03:24:03,840 --> 03:24:07,680 knowing for sure so i would i wouldn't want to speculate or miss misspeak 1492 03:24:07,680 --> 03:24:16,720 okay then permissive subjects i didn't tell you that either commissioner this is not my expertise 1493 03:24:16,720 --> 03:24:20,160 an attorney in the house they can tell us 1494 03:24:27,760 --> 03:24:33,600 your attorney shaking her head 1495 03:24:33,600 --> 03:24:41,280 well this one without doing additional research i don't want to um i don't i don't want to speak 1496 03:24:41,280 --> 03:24:45,760 on this one i would have to look into this one because i think it needs to be based on the 1497 03:24:45,760 --> 03:24:55,600 resource test materials that has been provided so okay then i'll i'll i'll put out a uh an sos 1498 03:24:57,520 --> 03:25:04,800 does anybody know what the top are that are considered permissive excuse me uh and then 1499 03:25:04,800 --> 03:25:10,080 those that are considered prohibited i see a hand there i don't think that was a hand to 1500 03:25:10,080 --> 03:25:20,000 answer your question was it clint mine's not but i mean i could probably give you some examples but 1501 03:25:20,000 --> 03:25:24,080 i'd have to have i don't have the book in front of me but i could probably give you some examples 1502 03:25:24,080 --> 03:25:30,800 when it says there's certain things that are legally prohibited from from bargaining and 1503 03:25:30,800 --> 03:25:36,800 those are things that are you know exclusive to management rights like uh for instance if we use 1504 03:25:36,800 --> 03:25:45,520 our fire department um one of the things might be that the battalion chief at his discretion 1505 03:25:45,520 --> 03:25:53,600 can take an apparatus out of service right um for training well that might not be something that is 1506 03:25:53,600 --> 03:25:59,840 that we would bargain about and i'm i'm just throwing that out there because it's within 1507 03:25:59,840 --> 03:26:04,160 manage management's prerogative to decide what the daily staffing is that's not something that 1508 03:26:04,160 --> 03:26:10,720 we negotiate and in our meet and confer contract say that we will have you know 43 people on duty 1509 03:26:10,720 --> 03:26:17,520 every day that's based on what the city has budgeted for how many fte's they have and all that 1510 03:26:19,040 --> 03:26:24,560 so it's more of an economic thing the city has certain exclusive rights that they can change 1511 03:26:24,560 --> 03:26:27,920 and they can make changes without having to negotiate on it 1512 03:26:27,920 --> 03:26:38,400 if you read those top three uh paragraphs just right under the scope of bargaining i mean i think 1513 03:26:38,400 --> 03:26:44,880 that's everything that mr students engine said my thing is is it's to me it's pretty cut and clear 1514 03:26:44,880 --> 03:26:50,160 um where where on page 338 at the very bottom where it talks about prohibited subjects 1515 03:26:50,160 --> 03:26:55,040 prohibited subjects are those that the parties are prohibited from bargaining over 1516 03:26:55,040 --> 03:27:01,520 and bargaining to me just isn't is the same as the management prerogative is it not so if it's 1517 03:27:01,520 --> 03:27:13,520 saying that that they're not even allowed to do that consider a you're on page 339 338 338 excuse 1518 03:27:13,520 --> 03:27:24,960 me okay let me get there can i can i just so the if you read the question and i know that we're i 1519 03:27:24,960 --> 03:27:30,160 feel like we're inferring some things into this because you're reading it in the section in context 1520 03:27:30,160 --> 03:27:36,800 but if you just read the question itself does it mention bargaining or negotiation what is okay what 1521 03:27:36,800 --> 03:27:43,440 is management prerogative what does that define us is that bargain is that not the right to be able to 1522 03:27:43,440 --> 03:27:49,360 bargain without having to go to collective bargaining i would say management prerogative 1523 03:27:49,360 --> 03:27:56,720 would be a decision that management can make right that they're having to go anywhere else so is that 1524 03:27:56,720 --> 03:28:06,400 not the same as the scope of bargaining i guess i'm not clear on what on what you're saying i'm 1525 03:28:06,400 --> 03:28:12,480 saying that bargaining and negotiation are not in the question so you would have to if it the 1526 03:28:12,480 --> 03:28:20,320 question doesn't say as as applies in bargaining or in the on the matter of collective bargaining 1527 03:28:20,320 --> 03:28:25,440 what or whatever that would be one thing but when it doesn't say that and it just says blank 1528 03:28:25,440 --> 03:28:28,560 following in management prerogative 1529 03:28:31,120 --> 03:28:38,800 that would be they can do whatever they want in two areas permissive they can decide to do 1530 03:28:38,800 --> 03:28:46,000 whatever they want and in the uh prohibited they can do whatever they want okay because it's saying 1531 03:28:46,000 --> 03:28:53,360 that it can't so i'm reading it's so on page 339 typically permissive subjects are those that fall 1532 03:28:53,360 --> 03:29:01,280 within a management prerogative management may but is not required to bargain over a permissive 1533 03:29:01,280 --> 03:29:06,960 subject they may but they don't have to however if an agreement is reached so when you're asking me 1534 03:29:06,960 --> 03:29:11,280 where am i getting bargaining that's where i'm getting it from this whole section of permissive 1535 03:29:11,280 --> 03:29:17,840 and prohibitive subjects are is under the subheading of scope of bargaining so am i understanding that 1536 03:29:17,840 --> 03:29:26,480 wrong uh to skipper that to be to fund management prerogative that's giving the management 1537 03:29:26,480 --> 03:29:34,560 the option to bargain yes we have the option to say yes or no and then i would and the more i'm 1538 03:29:34,560 --> 03:29:40,400 thinking about this i would consider a prohibited subject like we don't have the ability to negotiate 1539 03:29:40,400 --> 03:29:47,760 over title seven chapter seven civil rights act you know we don't we can't we can't negotiate with 1540 03:29:47,760 --> 03:29:54,080 the union to say we only want to hire you know women from now on that's a prohibited subject 1541 03:29:54,080 --> 03:30:01,520 right but you are able to on wages hours and other terms of employment which is on page 338 1542 03:30:01,520 --> 03:30:07,200 when it starts to define the scope of bargaining and further down when it talks about prohibited 1543 03:30:07,200 --> 03:30:14,000 subjects these are the subjects that you are not allowed to bargain for any for either side right 1544 03:30:14,000 --> 03:30:20,480 so then how can under management prerogative how can prohibitive subjects fall under management 1545 03:30:20,480 --> 03:30:23,840 prerogative you don't have the management doesn't have the right to bargain under those 1546 03:30:23,840 --> 03:30:31,600 so it cannot a cannot be right so the question the whole umbrella is collective progress 1547 03:30:32,800 --> 03:30:39,600 the scope of bargaining so bargaining versus collective bargaining right this the subject 1548 03:30:39,600 --> 03:30:45,040 excuse me the scope of subjects that may or must be discussed during collective bargaining 1549 03:30:45,040 --> 03:30:53,520 in the public sector is defined initially in the labor relations act and refined by court decisions 1550 03:30:53,520 --> 03:31:02,240 so we're talking collective bargaining here but the question doesn't raise the issue of negotiation 1551 03:31:02,240 --> 03:31:10,880 or bargaining i mean it's simply it's simply asking about the essence the definition 1552 03:31:10,880 --> 03:31:21,040 of which subjects are left to management without negotiation negotiation is not a part of it and 1553 03:31:21,040 --> 03:31:28,640 the only one that's not specifically under negotiation are the permissive subjects 1554 03:31:32,080 --> 03:31:34,000 the others require negotiation 1555 03:31:34,000 --> 03:31:42,080 agreed agreed agreed 1556 03:31:42,080 --> 03:31:54,560 but when you look at the appeals though the appeals are are making a point for 1557 03:31:54,560 --> 03:32:00,400 prohibited subjects yeah but the book clearly states that those are not 1558 03:32:01,120 --> 03:32:05,760 prohibitive subjects are those that parties are prohibited from bargaining over that includes 1559 03:32:05,760 --> 03:32:18,480 management okay so if the book clearly states that a is not an option then we have to go with 1560 03:32:18,480 --> 03:32:31,760 what's there yeah a long way to get here but i'm just trying to make sure that yeah you know man 1561 03:32:31,760 --> 03:32:39,040 motion that we sustain the key i'll second um i need to i need to go one other place first 1562 03:32:39,040 --> 03:32:44,560 then hold that hold that motion um is there anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal 1563 03:32:48,720 --> 03:32:51,600 mr pruent i know you raised your hand do you have something 1564 03:32:51,600 --> 03:33:00,160 salient and and clear clarifying to say no that was from earlier when someone asked if there were 1565 03:33:00,160 --> 03:33:08,160 any examples okay i thought there were in the book in appendix b but i couldn't find any okay all 1566 03:33:08,160 --> 03:33:13,200 right we just want it we do you raised your hand so we want to acknowledge okay now you can make 1567 03:33:13,200 --> 03:33:19,360 your motion commissioners okay i motion that we sustain the key i'll second 1568 03:33:19,360 --> 03:33:26,720 i hesitantly say is there any discussion 1569 03:33:26,720 --> 03:33:36,480 okay hearing none all in favor of sustaining the key to 83 say aye 1570 03:33:37,600 --> 03:33:46,240 aye you never know when you ask that question anymore all right next is 87 1571 03:33:46,240 --> 03:33:54,880 and there are three appeals is that correct okay 1572 03:33:54,880 --> 03:34:05,440 and none of them are great you got to listen to me read all three of them all right so questions 1573 03:34:05,440 --> 03:34:10,640 the first line of defense against a fire in a building is blank ensuring that the building 1574 03:34:10,640 --> 03:34:18,720 meets proper building specifications b an automatic fire protection system c first responding fire 1575 03:34:18,720 --> 03:34:26,400 department company d completing a thorough and accurate pre-fire plan and building inspection 1576 03:34:26,400 --> 03:34:28,640 um 1577 03:34:31,760 --> 03:34:39,040 all right make sure i'm in it all right one of the one of the appellants says uh the question 1578 03:34:39,040 --> 03:34:46,800 implies all buildings with a says that b is also is the key to answer b is not correct a is the 1579 03:34:46,800 --> 03:34:53,760 correct answer uh the question implies all buildings with a fire in the book it states an automatic 1580 03:34:53,760 --> 03:34:59,920 fire protection system especially an automatic sprinkler system is the first line of defense 1581 03:34:59,920 --> 03:35:06,000 in many buildings does not say all buildings what if the building does not have a sprinkler system 1582 03:35:06,000 --> 03:35:11,840 and it's up to the cons to the construction and specs of the building to be its first line of 1583 03:35:11,840 --> 03:35:22,480 defense another appeal says uh page 23 says automatic fire protection system is the first 1584 03:35:22,480 --> 03:35:28,720 line of defense in many buildings not all all buildings have to meet building specs not all 1585 03:35:28,720 --> 03:35:38,560 buildings have sprinklers installed only about half and wait a minute that's one of that's another 1586 03:35:38,560 --> 03:35:40,480 appeal all right where am i 1587 03:35:40,480 --> 03:35:52,480 okay thank you um not all buildings have fire protection systems my home does not most homes 1588 03:35:52,480 --> 03:35:57,680 do not homes or buildings any of the answers could be correct based on the type of building 1589 03:35:57,680 --> 03:36:04,080 if the question said a building with an automatic automated fire protection system 1590 03:36:04,080 --> 03:36:10,480 then the answer would be b since it is a general building any answer could be correct 1591 03:36:10,480 --> 03:36:16,560 those are the three appeals that have been read in uh fire response 1592 03:36:16,560 --> 03:36:27,440 we chose to accept a and b the question leaves out the keyword many so it is not 100 accurate 1593 03:36:27,920 --> 03:36:31,680 an automatic fire protection system can be anything from a simple smoke detector to a 1594 03:36:31,680 --> 03:36:38,480 fire sprinkler system since b is not 100 correct the argument can be made that a is fairly correct 1595 03:36:38,480 --> 03:36:43,120 also as referenced throughout the chapter c is not mentioned and d while it is mentioned 1596 03:36:43,120 --> 03:36:46,960 in the chapter i think it is a stretch to be considered a first line of defense 1597 03:36:53,600 --> 03:36:58,160 questions commissioners i have no questions 1598 03:36:58,160 --> 03:37:06,240 okay anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal is that you mr pruett 1599 03:37:06,240 --> 03:37:12,400 yes thank you i don't know if it's in opposition could could you please reread the question 1600 03:37:12,400 --> 03:37:19,200 once again the first line of defense against a fire in a building is 1601 03:37:20,560 --> 03:37:26,400 a ensuring that the building meets proper building specifications b 1602 03:37:26,400 --> 03:37:35,200 an automated fire protection system c the first responding fire department company 1603 03:37:35,200 --> 03:37:42,720 and d completing a thorough and accurate pre-fire plan and building inspection 1604 03:37:45,040 --> 03:37:50,880 thank you very much no further comment 1605 03:37:50,880 --> 03:38:00,880 any other questions commissioner i would in i would entertain a motion 1606 03:38:00,880 --> 03:38:08,320 i move that we accept uh a and b 1607 03:38:12,000 --> 03:38:15,760 one second any discussion 1608 03:38:15,760 --> 03:38:22,800 all in favor say aye aye opposed 1609 03:38:22,800 --> 03:38:32,480 next last is question 92 1610 03:38:35,600 --> 03:38:45,120 on is mr miller there he is yes sir um on this appeal we're in uh 1611 03:38:45,120 --> 03:38:53,840 building construction for the spider service and i wanted to point out um first of all i guess 1612 03:38:53,840 --> 03:38:58,960 if you could just read the question and the answers into the record 1613 03:39:02,720 --> 03:39:09,600 sure which of the following statements is true conceal spaces are permitted between structural 1614 03:39:09,600 --> 03:39:16,560 members in type three construction conceal spaces are permitted between structural members in type 1615 03:39:16,560 --> 03:39:23,120 four construction conceal spaces are permitted between structural members in both type three 1616 03:39:23,120 --> 03:39:31,760 and type four and d conceal spaces are permitted between structural members in neither type three 1617 03:39:31,760 --> 03:39:44,080 nor four construction yes sir uh my answer that the uh there are concealed spaces in type three 1618 03:39:44,080 --> 03:39:52,720 and type four construction um in the book if you'll look at uh page 145 1619 03:39:52,720 --> 03:39:56,800 there's a title called ceilings 1620 03:39:58,720 --> 03:40:04,480 i'll get to why i'm going here first and underneath the bullet points it reads 1621 03:40:04,480 --> 03:40:11,120 ceiling materials can be directly but can be attached directly to the underside of roof joists 1622 03:40:11,120 --> 03:40:18,240 or trusses or they can be installed at a distance beneath the roof supporting roof supports creating 1623 03:40:18,240 --> 03:40:26,720 a considerable concealed space so i just wanted to point out that uh there are they can be the 1624 03:40:26,720 --> 03:40:34,960 ceilings can be attached directly to the trusses or the roof joists which are structural members 1625 03:40:34,960 --> 03:40:42,720 if we'll go now to uh page 206 1626 03:40:42,720 --> 03:40:53,600 there's an information box here it has the purple eye on it and it says heavy timber mill construction 1627 03:40:55,840 --> 03:41:00,960 and rather than just read through the whole thing if we drop down to the last paragraph 1628 03:41:00,960 --> 03:41:08,080 it says the advantages of mill construction can be significantly lessened when a building when a 1629 03:41:08,080 --> 03:41:14,960 mill building undergoes a change of occupancy many older mill style buildings have been converted to 1630 03:41:14,960 --> 03:41:21,680 residential occupancies which results in subdivision of floor space into residential units these 1631 03:41:21,680 --> 03:41:29,360 divisions can be lead to the creation of sealed concealed spaces when partitions and ceilings 1632 03:41:29,360 --> 03:41:34,560 are installed in individual units and that's why i went to ceilings a moment ago because this 1633 03:41:34,560 --> 03:41:40,640 specifically calls out when those are added now you have built spaces and the way that 1634 03:41:40,640 --> 03:41:46,880 the paragraph under ceilings talked about the way it was attached and you directly attach that to a 1635 03:41:47,680 --> 03:41:53,040 floor joist or a structural element now you have a penetration and that's a concealed space 1636 03:41:53,040 --> 03:42:00,880 i do know that i agree with the keyed answer but i believe my answer is correct also based on this 1637 03:42:00,880 --> 03:42:07,120 information box i believe that uh if we look and see why we even have this information box 1638 03:42:07,120 --> 03:42:11,760 on page three at the front of the book it tells us why they even put these in here 1639 03:42:12,960 --> 03:42:20,400 um it says uh information boxes give facts that are complete in themselves but belong 1640 03:42:20,400 --> 03:42:28,480 with the text discussion it is information that needs more emphasis or separation in the text the 1641 03:42:28,480 --> 03:42:33,120 title will give you the change and reflected content but it needs more emphasis so the author 1642 03:42:33,120 --> 03:42:40,480 of the book put this information box in here to give us more emphasis on this type of construction 1643 03:42:40,480 --> 03:42:48,400 and specifically in this box it tells you that concealed spaces are allowed and that exists in 1644 03:42:48,400 --> 03:42:53,440 our city now because a lot of these buildings it says many older mill style buildings because 1645 03:42:53,440 --> 03:42:57,200 those are older they've been renovated a lot of them are residences a lot of them are just uh 1646 03:42:57,200 --> 03:43:03,360 commercial buildings we do have them here in town and we permit for them excuse me so they are 1647 03:43:03,360 --> 03:43:10,400 allowed and we go out and inspect these and when they are renovated those structural members now 1648 03:43:10,400 --> 03:43:15,040 have concealed spaces between them and that's my point for the answer i chose based on the 1649 03:43:15,040 --> 03:43:27,840 information box here so just to be clear you're saying that 1650 03:43:30,480 --> 03:43:36,800 answer a is not then that's the key dancer is not correct but answer c 1651 03:43:36,800 --> 03:43:44,800 i.e. including both type three and type four construction is correct is that is that correct 1652 03:43:44,800 --> 03:43:52,640 i know i went back and forth on how i was going to key this as you can see on my field marked out 1653 03:43:52,640 --> 03:43:58,640 because i didn't know if i'm going to look at this at best answer then what you just said i 1654 03:43:58,640 --> 03:44:04,000 would say yes to because you can't the author doesn't want us walking away from this book 1655 03:44:04,000 --> 03:44:09,680 believing there are no concealed spaces in that type of construction you can't pull up on that 1656 03:44:09,680 --> 03:44:15,600 type of construction recognize it when it says abc apartments outside and think there are no 1657 03:44:15,600 --> 03:44:18,960 concealed spaces in there and the author doesn't want you taking that away from here and that's 1658 03:44:18,960 --> 03:44:24,720 why this information box is in there i believe that answer is actually probably the best answer 1659 03:44:25,440 --> 03:44:31,520 from a safety standpoint we have to know this um i do see where a is in there 1660 03:44:31,520 --> 03:44:39,200 okay other questions for the appellant 1661 03:44:39,200 --> 03:44:47,120 i guess i'm a little confused because on page 49 i mean on the bullet 1662 03:44:47,120 --> 03:44:53,200 under the type four construction it clearly says that they're not permitted 1663 03:44:55,120 --> 03:45:00,560 so i understand what you're saying they do but the book says they're not permitted 1664 03:45:00,560 --> 03:45:09,200 yes ma'am says which of the following statements is true and all of them use the word permitted 1665 03:45:09,200 --> 03:45:17,200 not that they don't exist so this is another this is another example of of your your knowledge that 1666 03:45:17,200 --> 03:45:22,000 you know because you're out there you're living it every day and you see it versus what the book 1667 03:45:22,000 --> 03:45:28,320 says that about without them being permitted question here not about what you do every day 1668 03:45:28,320 --> 03:45:34,560 but but well what the book says yes ma'am i don't see a lot of wiggle room on that 1669 03:45:34,560 --> 03:45:43,360 yes ma'am that's another reason i chose my answer is the only answer is because of that uh it kind 1670 03:45:43,360 --> 03:45:48,560 of there is a little what would appear to be some contradiction it tells you that they're there so 1671 03:45:49,600 --> 03:45:55,840 as the fire prevention and the building department we do permit for renovations and that's when those 1672 03:45:55,840 --> 03:46:01,760 drop ceilings come in as it talks about in this information box we issue permits that allow that 1673 03:46:01,760 --> 03:46:08,160 to happen it's not just uh based on my personal experience that i've described but we do permit 1674 03:46:08,160 --> 03:46:13,440 for this we permit for these type of renovations or remodeling in this type of construction and 1675 03:46:13,440 --> 03:46:22,960 when they do it now you have that concealed space so you guys are doing something because it's not 1676 03:46:22,960 --> 03:46:29,120 permitted to happen that's what i that's why i chose my answer as being the correct one 1677 03:46:29,120 --> 03:46:35,520 and we're going back to you we're going back to what's the source material that we have to look at 1678 03:46:35,520 --> 03:46:40,640 yes ma'am all i read all i just quoted to you was written in this book 1679 03:46:44,320 --> 03:46:49,520 uh our response let's our other questions 1680 03:46:49,520 --> 03:46:57,360 we can come back to we can come back to that too so john i was waiting on fire response 1681 03:46:57,360 --> 03:47:03,280 okay fire response vote to sustain the key the answer is stated in the book 1682 03:47:03,280 --> 03:47:12,400 so uh chief skipper in light of the information that the other officer 1683 03:47:13,200 --> 03:47:18,880 brought forward about that we have some situations that are not permitted but yet they exist 1684 03:47:18,880 --> 03:47:25,280 how do we how do we how do we take that into consideration in preparing for an examination 1685 03:47:25,280 --> 03:47:32,080 like this it's a good question commissioner i don't have any arguments about any of his points made 1686 03:47:34,720 --> 03:47:44,400 right i mean but but i do because you're saying that the answers come from the books 1687 03:47:44,400 --> 03:47:50,640 come from this material not from experience not from background knowledge not from outside source 1688 03:47:50,640 --> 03:47:55,360 material not from other classes that i might have taken at another college that have to do with fire 1689 03:47:55,360 --> 03:47:58,720 it says it has to come just from the book so 1690 03:48:01,840 --> 03:48:08,560 yes ma'am but he was asking he was asking as far as reality that commissioner baines i took that 1691 03:48:08,560 --> 03:48:15,760 question is that but as far as jeb's points i don't have any arguments against him but do i 1692 03:48:15,760 --> 03:48:19,360 say i still stick with sustain the key because that's the answer stated in the book 1693 03:48:19,360 --> 03:48:23,520 as far as the departmental perspective 1694 03:48:27,120 --> 03:48:33,120 i guess my one question to jeb would be this if i was going to build a type four construction 1695 03:48:33,120 --> 03:48:38,560 building from scratch we're not changing occupancy we're not we're not renovating 1696 03:48:38,560 --> 03:48:48,880 would i be permitted to have void spaces permitted to have that as long as it's done correct 1697 03:48:49,840 --> 03:48:59,840 no you wouldn't but the uh the question doesn't draw out if it would have sent new construction 1698 03:48:59,840 --> 03:49:05,760 or in its original form it's an original built time i would agree with the chief that you'd have 1699 03:49:05,760 --> 03:49:10,720 to stop right there but it doesn't say that it leaves it open and that leaves it open to 1700 03:49:10,720 --> 03:49:16,160 what the information box tells us that many of them are renovated and now there's concealed spaces 1701 03:49:16,160 --> 03:49:21,600 if the question would have would have said hey brand new now look at it originally right now 1702 03:49:21,600 --> 03:49:28,800 stop i get what you're saying but it doesn't say that i have a uh this part of the uh in the back 1703 03:49:28,800 --> 03:49:34,240 of the book and definitions i can't find it yet in the book but it has the definition for building 1704 03:49:34,240 --> 03:49:40,400 permit so when i was talking about what we do in the city it's actually in this book uh says uh 1705 03:49:40,400 --> 03:49:45,200 authorization issued from approved authority having jurisdiction before any new construction 1706 03:49:45,200 --> 03:49:50,880 addition renovation operation or demolitions of buildings or structures so that's why i was 1707 03:49:50,880 --> 03:49:56,320 getting uh me seeing and knowing that there's permits issued it actually has it in this book 1708 03:49:56,320 --> 03:50:03,600 no i believe it i just have an issue with y'all are doing something that's probably not best 1709 03:50:03,600 --> 03:50:09,440 practice that's probably number one other two is just the wording it's if what's happened what's 1710 03:50:09,440 --> 03:50:13,840 actually happening but then what in theory is supposed to be the right thing which is that 1711 03:50:13,840 --> 03:50:19,520 they're not supposed to have that they're not supposed to have permitted concealed spaces are 1712 03:50:19,520 --> 03:50:27,440 not permitted uh these structural components for construction i understand i'm just to to make a 1713 03:50:27,440 --> 03:50:33,200 to make the best possible answer i know and what we've been saying all along which is we need to 1714 03:50:33,200 --> 03:50:38,960 follow what's in the source material and to meet with other people's rulings that we've you know 1715 03:50:38,960 --> 03:50:45,760 said yes or no to on on questions that have been appealed today i'm trying to be consistent and to 1716 03:50:45,760 --> 03:50:50,400 look at what's in the book i understand the difference between book and reality i completely 1717 03:50:50,400 --> 03:50:55,840 get that and i know that that's frustrating but just because it happens doesn't mean that it's 1718 03:50:55,840 --> 03:51:02,640 that it's permitted well that's like saying murder is not permitted does it happen of course it does 1719 03:51:02,640 --> 03:51:10,480 in reality is it permitted no it's not permitted exactly in 206 under that information 1720 03:51:10,480 --> 03:51:22,880 section that you cited jeb it says um i can find it now many old old older mill style buildings have 1721 03:51:22,880 --> 03:51:31,440 been converted to residential occupancies which results in the um creation of concealed spaces 1722 03:51:31,440 --> 03:51:39,200 when petitions and ceilings are installed in individual units period end of sentence 1723 03:51:39,200 --> 03:51:43,760 it doesn't bring in 1724 03:51:43,760 --> 03:51:57,760 permitted and that's where so yeah so permission permission to do it is another decision that's 1725 03:51:57,760 --> 03:52:04,240 not talked about in the book the book doesn't talk about permitting concealed spaces in type 1726 03:52:04,240 --> 03:52:10,320 four construction that's what the word converted in order to convert it you have to get a building 1727 03:52:10,320 --> 03:52:15,520 permit and that's where i read the definition in the back where building permit is in this book 1728 03:52:15,520 --> 03:52:23,680 and it talks about renovations and remodels in here and i somewhere in this book it talks about 1729 03:52:24,800 --> 03:52:30,000 building permitting as well i believe it's this one but definitely that definition in the back 1730 03:52:30,000 --> 03:52:33,920 wouldn't be in here if we didn't talk about building permits and that's where they get 1731 03:52:33,920 --> 03:52:45,520 the permission to convert as you just read these occupancies 1732 03:52:50,320 --> 03:52:55,520 i i think that the information that's why the author has that in there so we will know that 1733 03:52:55,520 --> 03:53:00,880 and actually the building the building permit department is where they'll get the permission 1734 03:53:00,880 --> 03:53:10,880 do you think the department would be willing to accept c seen as how you all as a department 1735 03:53:10,880 --> 03:53:16,160 actually do issue these permits the department will not change its stance 1736 03:53:19,200 --> 03:53:20,480 and why do you all issue the permits 1737 03:53:20,480 --> 03:53:30,400 that's for another time mr stevenson did you have a question or comment mr stevenson 1738 03:53:30,400 --> 03:53:37,200 yes sir are we ready to speak in opposition to the appellant yes we're ready for that so the 1739 03:53:37,200 --> 03:53:42,160 only thing i'll say is um real world versus practice obviously two different things 1740 03:53:42,160 --> 03:53:45,760 the whole point of building construction classification is just to 1741 03:53:47,120 --> 03:53:52,880 in these books is to show you the dangers one building versus another building and one of the 1742 03:53:52,880 --> 03:53:58,320 things with the heavy timber construction is is that they don't have concealed spaces 1743 03:53:58,320 --> 03:54:04,160 so that makes them safer whereas the type three buildings they do have concealed spaces so i think 1744 03:54:04,160 --> 03:54:07,440 that's that's where the questions come from that's the answer they're trying to draw out 1745 03:54:07,440 --> 03:54:16,320 i don't permitted meaning not building permit but allowed i think and i think if you 1746 03:54:17,280 --> 03:54:22,240 get a building permit to alter a mill type construction building to something else then 1747 03:54:22,240 --> 03:54:27,600 you no longer have your mill type your mill type four building you have a hybrid building 1748 03:54:27,600 --> 03:54:34,560 now with two different construction types on top of each other i thought that thank you 1749 03:54:34,560 --> 03:54:43,360 can i speak to that sure that's not necessarily true can be but not necessarily 1750 03:54:44,400 --> 03:54:48,000 with drop ceilings you still have the structural elements of that type four building 1751 03:54:48,000 --> 03:54:56,160 regardless of that renovation and on page 15 if there is a section on building permits it 1752 03:54:56,160 --> 03:55:03,600 just tells you that before a permit is issued the proposed design must meet applicable building code 1753 03:55:03,600 --> 03:55:11,280 provisions so they will they will permit this to happen because we permit renovations and that's 1754 03:55:11,280 --> 03:55:18,720 what the information box is getting at converted means renovated or remodeled changing it and they 1755 03:55:18,720 --> 03:55:28,000 have to have permission to do that but a type four building when it's initially built has no concealed 1756 03:55:28,000 --> 03:55:35,120 spaces correct yes sir okay question doesn't stop there 1757 03:55:40,080 --> 03:55:46,640 it's asking you what's true and type three allows it and type four as the information 1758 03:55:46,640 --> 03:55:53,280 box tells us also allows those spaces and legally with building permits it's permitted 1759 03:56:06,720 --> 03:56:11,360 commissioners i would entertain a motion 1760 03:56:11,360 --> 03:56:20,080 my mic not working 1761 03:56:20,080 --> 03:56:26,160 i'll i'll go for it i'll make sure that we accept a and c 1762 03:56:26,160 --> 03:56:30,400 i'll second 1763 03:56:35,600 --> 03:56:37,520 okay discussion 1764 03:56:37,520 --> 03:56:42,080 i have no 1765 03:56:42,080 --> 03:56:59,120 okay ready to vote all in favor the motion is to accept a and c all in favor say aye opposed 1766 03:56:59,760 --> 03:57:06,880 aye motion carries to accept a and c 1767 03:57:06,880 --> 03:57:20,560 ladies and gentlemen we have reached the end of the appointed uh appeals 1768 03:57:20,560 --> 03:57:28,560 um as i said earlier i'm going to say it again uh you guys put in a lot of work 1769 03:57:29,920 --> 03:57:36,480 you put in a lot of work on a daily basis i live out by station six and i hear the 1770 03:57:36,480 --> 03:57:42,160 i hear the ambulance and the fire truck go out a lot so i know you i know you work hard every 1771 03:57:42,160 --> 03:57:49,920 day but you take it upon yourselves to go that extra step and try to memorize all the material 1772 03:57:49,920 --> 03:57:57,360 and a whole bunch of heavy books and um better yourself and be better for our community and 1773 03:57:58,160 --> 03:58:05,040 trust me when i say that we appreciate that you're willing to go that extra mile to do those things 1774 03:58:05,040 --> 03:58:14,880 to make yourself better but also to make us safer that in and of itself says volumes about your 1775 03:58:14,880 --> 03:58:20,800 commitment to the job that you do and i want to thank you for that uh you're you're going in 1776 03:58:20,800 --> 03:58:27,040 places that i wouldn't want to go so uh thank you so much for doing that i hope you will continue 1777 03:58:27,680 --> 03:58:33,200 i know that you may not be happy with us in some ways we're probably not happy with ourselves 1778 03:58:33,200 --> 03:58:40,000 completely either but um it's the process that we go through uh and until we come up with a better 1779 03:58:40,000 --> 03:58:46,960 process which we're going to continually try to do um hence our session in the middle of the meeting 1780 03:58:46,960 --> 03:58:54,800 and subsequent follow-ups to that um we're going to do the best we can do to try to be fair to you 1781 03:58:54,800 --> 03:59:01,680 and give you every benefit of the doubt but at the same time uh keep the integrity of of the 1782 03:59:01,680 --> 03:59:09,920 process going so but most of all thank you so much for all you do for us and and leading your 1783 03:59:09,920 --> 03:59:16,240 your folks and in striving to better yourselves so thank you very much 1784 03:59:16,240 --> 03:59:23,280 thank you thank you all too just for everybody that put uh all the information into your appeals it 1785 03:59:23,280 --> 03:59:27,360 makes it so much easier for us because even when i'm reading through them on my own and i'm looking 1786 03:59:27,360 --> 03:59:32,720 through the book i really do need y'all's input so i appreciate the people that take time to walk us 1787 03:59:32,720 --> 03:59:39,280 through and explain and make their points and justify that a lot thanks to everyone for all 1788 03:59:39,280 --> 03:59:44,160 their hard work their scholarship and their dedication i'm privileged to be a part of the 1789 03:59:44,160 --> 03:59:51,120 process and i hope that we contributed significantly and have a great day thank you yes thank you all 1790 03:59:52,160 --> 03:59:58,800 um we've reached the end of the agenda uh so i would entertain a motion unless there is 1791 03:59:58,800 --> 04:00:04,800 anything else i would entertain a motion that we adjourn at 1 32 1792 04:00:04,800 --> 04:00:14,960 a motion that we adjourn thank you is there a second thank you all in favor of adjourning say 1793 04:00:14,960 --> 04:00:22,160 aye aye thank you all thank you all so much have a great day stay safe