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 Good morning. I'd like to call the May 27th meeting of the Civil Service Commission to

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 order at 1145. First order of business is introduction of guests. I think that we determined

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 that there are no guests. The stars of the show are the ones of the others of you that

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 are sitting here. So we'll move on to our next, which is public comments. Again, I don't

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 see anyone. We have no one registered for public comments. So we will move on with that.

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 Next order of business is to consider the minutes of the January 22nd meeting. Commissioners,

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 I would ask you to take a look at those and then entertain them. I would entertain a motion

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 that we approve the minutes of the January 22nd meeting. Don't forget you have to raise

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 your hand first. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. I move to approve the minutes. John? I second

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 it. Any in discussion, is there any corrections, amendments, anything? Hearing none, all in

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 favor of approval of the minutes, say aye. Aye. All right. Next order of business is

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 the appeals for the driver exam. So are you going to do, do you have something to say

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 to them first or? Okay. Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, we're glad to have you here today. It's a

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 little different, obviously, for it feels a lot different than it normally does. We

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 have a number of appeals. I want to make sure that everyone gets a chance to express their

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 concerns in the sense of information to provide to us, for us to consider as commissioners.

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 On the other hand, since there are a number of participants, if there is something that's

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 already been said, I would appreciate it. I think the other commissioners also would

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 appreciate your not saying it again. That would include the ones who actually filed

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 the appeals. We want to hear as much new information as we can to make sure that we make the best

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 possible decision for your, for this outcome for you. But as I say, we don't need to do

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 a lot of extra. As I think has been explained, we will have, let you raise your hands and

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 you will be unmuted and give you a chance to speak. The first, so are there any questions

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 on that? Okay. I'll try to make sure I can read all the names off the appeals. We're

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 ready. The first appeal is for question two. We have Mr. Friend and Mr. Punches. I saw

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 Jeremy. There he is. Jeremy? Are you? Can he? Would you unmute Jeremy? Someone unmute

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 Jeremy Punches, please. You're still muted. Yep. There you go now. Now you go. I have

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 nothing further than what's in my appeal that I wrote there. Okay. And Mr. Friend. Okay.

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 Basically and the commissioners have seen these. I assume I should probably read the

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 appeal in. Should I read the appeal? Mr. Punches' appeal or did? Okay. I believe question number

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 two, believe it has multiple correct answers. According to the material in the book, the

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 fire, what is the instrument safety officer is delegated on any working incident, therefore

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 extreme weather, wildland, target hazards all have an ISO. Made a situation like the

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 ISO be ready in place due to the situation we already have required. And that's basically

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 the same. Mr. Punches says A, B, and D are also correct, that all answers are correct.

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 Mr. Friend says that another answer, A, is correct. The question is what scenario listed

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 below would warrant automatic delegation of an incident safety officer, extreme weather,

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 wildland interface fire, firefighter down, missing or injured. And D is target hazards.

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 The correct answer is a firefighter down. And that is in the fire safety officer manual.

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 Mr. Punches, did I do you justice? >> Got it. >> Good. >> Okay. Okay. We are

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 going to ask, remind you to unmute yourself as you speak. Don't everybody speak at once.

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 It gets to be really chaotic. Okay. Okay. You probably didn't hear that. If you'll ask

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 for permission, I will address you to let you speak. So. Commissioners, do you have

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 any questions of Mr. Punches at this point? You can shake your head if you'd like or say

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 yes or no. >> I don't have any questions at this time.

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 >> Thank you. >> Okay. Commissioner Carrillo? Okay. Fire

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 response. >> We would like to sustain the key as stated

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 in the reference. Furthermore, page 46, the book clearly has answers A, B, and D as an

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 automatic response for an ISO and not an automatic delegation. The automatic response is defined

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 as the safety officer responding to the incident and available if the incident commander needs

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 them to handle the incident safety officer function at the incident. Automatic delegation

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 is that if the incident safety officer is on scene, then they are automatically delegated

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 to a specific safety function for specific events. >> Commissioners, questions of fire?

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 I have no questions. Thank you. >> I guess I'm trying to understand so if

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 the -- if the ISO is on the scene, then they automatically become delegated to serve a

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 special function? I'm a little -- because I'm trying to read the appeals and I'm trying

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 to read the officer response and then what was in the book. So I guess I'm trying to

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 understand if an ISO is sent to the scene, does that automatically make them the automatically

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 delegated person to deal with whatever emergency is happening? Or can a person -- or can an

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 ISO be sent to the scene and not be put in place as the automatic delegation?

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 >> So the automatic delegation and the firefighter down would say yes, we are creating this position

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 in our incident. This safety officer is automatically getting assigned in our incident. All these

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 other incidents may not require an incident safety officer.

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 >> They could. >> Could. But the only one that would automatically

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 happen is the firefighter down, missing or injured.

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 >> Okay. >> May I enter a check here?

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 >> Yes, sir. >> At the bottom of page 45, there's that

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 section firefighter down, missing or injured. And in that paragraph, it says one main part

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 of the plan should be the immediate appointment of an ISO if not already assigned. So I think

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 the Commissioner Carrillo had asked about -- in one of our previous questions, I thought

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 this was the sentence that answered it for me, is that there needs to be an appointment

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 of an ISO if one is not already assigned. But if one was already assigned, then there

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 wouldn't be a need to assign one. >> When I read that, I also read that as

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 to say that even if there's an ISO on scene doing something else, if there is a manned

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 down situation, they would immediately become that ISO and leave other things to other people

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 until that emergency is cleared. Am I reading too much into that?

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 >> I think that's the basic general idea, yes, that the only thing in that list that

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 automatically is going to get an incident safety officer assigned because of this incident

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 is that situation, the down firefighter was injured. Everything else is at the discretion

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 of the incident commander. >> May I make one last comment, please?

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 >> Yes, sir. >> I would simply like to say to all of the

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 officers here today, I greatly appreciate the scholarship that all of you undertake

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 to go for these promotions. I'm a CPA, and I don't deal with this normally. This is a

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 lot of information, and my hat's off to you for your efforts to digest this. I mean, this

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 is a lot to remember under test situations, and so I applaud all of you. I just wanted

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 to say that I did my best, and if I err, it's because I couldn't grasp everything, but we

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 try our very best to be accurate and not cavalier in answering any of these questions. So I wanted

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 to know both about our respect and that we try very hard to make the right decision.

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 So thank you. >> Thank you, Commissioner Baines. We certainly

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 agree. That's my speech for the end, but you're right. We're trying our best to help you guys.

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 We know where you are. We follow you guys all the way through the process. Is there

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 anyone that would like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

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 Greg? >> If I may have a moment?

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 >> Yes. >> I would just like to ask the department,

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 in your response to the appeal, you essentially gave a definition for automatic response.

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 An automatic delegation. Was that from the material, or is that something that -- where

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 did that come from? >> I can't answer that. I don't know where

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 that response came from, specifically. The battalion chief who wrote that response is

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 not in the room. >> Okay. There they are. Shay. Unmute yourselves.

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 >> Hello. So I think where the department got their response, if you look on page 43,

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 at the top left side, automatic ISO response. And whenever you look at the question, it

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 has in quotation marks delegation, which is on page 44, on to page 45, where it says firefighter

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 down missing. So the response is A, B, and D, which gets an automatic ISO response. But

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 the delegation goes on to the next page. You see what I'm talking about? And I think that's

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 where the department got their responses, because it says verbatim in the book that

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 A, B, and D are an automatic ISO response and not delegation. So I agree with the department

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 on sustaining the key. >> Thank you. Ms. Hillard, where are you? There

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 you are. Can't find you on the screen. >> Just to continue on with what Shay was saying,

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 page 44, there is automatic ISO delegation, where it specifies the difference in it, and

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 if you are occasionally caught short or worse, the situation has been handled only to have

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 Murphy show up. In this case, it pays to have a predefined set of circumstances that lead

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 to the automatic delegation of the ISO role where one hasn't been made. Having an SOP

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 that tells the IC that he or she shall delegate the safety function to a qualified ISO under

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 certain conditions is what we mean by automatic delegation. >> Any other? Commissioners, I

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 would entertain a motion on question two. >> I motion that we sustain the key. >> Second.

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 >> Moved and seconded. Question two, to sustain the key. All in favor say aye. >> Aye. >> Opposed?

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 Sustained the key. Next is item seven. Small -- hang on, small desk, a lot of paper. Where

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 are they? Item seven, we have two appellants, Mr. Jones and Mr. Bentley. Mr. Jones, I see

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 you came into my view first. Would you like to present your appeal, please, sir? >> I

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 don't have much more to add than what was said in the rebuttal by the city. I did have

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 two references that I feel like were correct in that we checked vitals. I have a third

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 reference that was a mistake on all part. >> Okay. And Mr. Bentley? >> Yes, sir. >> Do

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 you have anything? Where are you? >> Right now. >> All right. >> Okay. No, just everything

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 I have in the rebuttal is all I have. >> Okay. They both asked that another answer, i.e.,

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 answer D to the question would also be an acceptable answer. Questions of the appellants?

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 I have no questions. >> No questions. >> All right. Fire response. >> We have to sustain

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 the key. The test direction states to pick the best answer. Answer D is an incorrect

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 answer because it states take random vital signs. Vital signs need to be taken on everyone

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 entering rehab, not just at random. Key question is in the text. >> Question of the fire response.

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 >> No questions of fire response. >> No questions. >> Does anyone like to speak in -- against

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 the appeal? Seeing no one. Commissioners, I would entertain a motion on question seven.

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 >> I move to sustain the key. >> I will second that motion. >> Discussion? Hearing none.

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 All in favor of sustaining the key of question seven, say aye. >> Aye. >> Motion carries.

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 Next is question 11. Mr. Bentley and Mr. Jones. >> I have nothing else to add. >> Give

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 us a brief synopsis of what you said. We have it here. Everyone else knows. >> The question

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 was effective incident safety officer understands the relationship of blank to blank. I put environment

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 and exposure. Read my thing right quick. So everything that's on this, equipment safety,

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 building constructions, access, everything pretty much involves our environment and what

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 we're exposed to is kind of where I was leading on to that. So if we don't understand the

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 basics of what we're going against or anything like that to be exposed, what equipment will

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 we need to be safe to? I think it encompasses everything way better. >> Okay. Questions

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 of the appellants? >> I do have a question, please. >> Yes, sir. >> Thank you, gentlemen.

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 Once again, on page 21, there is a statement underneath station equipment. It's the beginning

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 of the next paragraph. It says the effective ISO understands the relationship of equipment

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 to safety. And that's what I keyed as the reading. I think the other items are important,

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 but that's what I keyed on. And so was there something else that you saw that maybe you

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 thought was a little more of a stronger relationship? >> Yeah. So what I was going with was like

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 so our bunker gear versus it protects us from our heat and everything else. So that's our

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 environment to what we're exposed to. And that's where I was looking at our hazmat suits.

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 They're preventing us from exposures to the environment that we're at any time we go and

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 do a certain task or with anything. Right now, they're doing we wear the mask and everything

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 else for COVID calls and everything like that because it's an exposure in our environment.

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 So I just think it sums up if we don't know what the environment and exposures are we're

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 going into, then we can't really figure out what equipment and safety has to do with that

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 certain task. >> Just to respond to your statement, when

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 you mentioned hazmat or masks, that would be equipment, would it not?

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 >> Yes. >> So when you and kind of going back to that

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 statement, equipment to safety, I think you kind of reinforced that point by your statement

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 about that. You know, in view of the task before you, you always have to make sure you

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 have the right equipment to stay safe in that. >> Yeah, yeah, definitely. But before we go

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 into it, we have to know exactly what environment we're going into.

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 >> I see what you're saying. You have to have kind of an idea, am I going into a smoke field

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 room or am I going into a burning building? >> Yeah, low oxygen. I mean, there's tons

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 of environments that we go into that we've got to figure out what the exposure is because

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 we go in with the wrong equipment and that equipment is worthless to us.

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 >> So and having this conversation, then, so would that statement that's listed here

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 by the department, does that stand where it says understands the relationship of equipment

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 to safety? Do you think that still should be the position of the department or do you

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 think it should differ based on your view? >> My view is A. I see every one of them,

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 but I think A is probably the more beneficial and safety related for us.

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 >> Thank you for your response. >> Mr. Jones, do you have anything to add?

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 >> I have nothing to add. I was coming from the same viewpoint as Craig in relation to

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 environment exposure. >> Just didn't want you to think we forgot

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 the answer. Any other questions of the appellants? Fire response?

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 >> Vote to sustain the key. Information including question and answer comes directly from the

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 text making C the most correct answer. Answer A is not stated in the text and is the opinion

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 of the two appellants should not be considered. >> Questions of fire?

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 >> I did have a question or comment. I don't know which one it is. It's one of them. Let's

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 see. Battalion chief, so in the little dialogue that we had, I could kind of see a little

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 bit of what the gentleman was saying. Would you kind of conclude -- kind of continue that

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 conversation with me a little bit that he and I started?

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 >> I need to measure my words carefully, commissioner. >> Thank you. I'm trying hard to. I want to

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 make sure I give the appellant every benefit of the doubt. That's all I'm trying to do.

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 >> I understand. >> Thank you.

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 >> From the departmental response, I would say the perspective is this. You have to go

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 with the best answer according to the source material. And the source material is clearly

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 stated almost word-for-word. And everything else would just be a matter of opinion at

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 this point. I don't know if that clears it up any more for you, commissioner, or?

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 >> Let me respond in this way. So let's say that the -- and when a test -- when a person

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 is taking a test, in their preparation, are they just given the books or are they given

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 some kind of idea of what to emphasize, what you're looking for, are -- you know, how does

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 that work? How does that work? >> They're given the book, the source material,

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 and they can be tested over anything from the front cover to the back cover.

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 >> I think if I can jump in, I think that's the hard part. Because in reading the second

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 appellant on page 177 and 178, it talks about the environmental integrity, which could either

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 go towards A or it could go towards D, the building construction. And it talks about,

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 you know, it can use the following terminology. Is it stable? Is it not likely to change?

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 So I think whenever we ask firefighters to read this, are we asking them to memorize

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 certain one-liners or are we asking them to read the entire thing and to use their critical

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 thinking skills to be able to apply? And so from what I'm understanding and what I'm hearing,

201
00:29:54,620 --> 00:29:57,980
 we're asking them to memorize. And so if we're asking them to memorize, then I would sustain

202
00:29:57,980 --> 00:30:02,020
 the key. But if we're asking them to think critically, then I could see where the argument

203
00:30:02,020 --> 00:30:12,380
 could be made for some of these other answers. I think for myself, when I'm reading the appeals,

204
00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:15,980
 I already know what everyone has written on the appeals. But if you can make some other

205
00:30:15,980 --> 00:30:22,300
 kind of point to explain to us how you arrived at your decision, it would -- for me, at least,

206
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:27,980
 it would help me better understand where you're coming from if you say more than just I already

207
00:30:27,980 --> 00:30:32,660
 know what was on my appeal. At least that would be helpful for me.

208
00:30:32,660 --> 00:30:38,980
 >> I would be helpful for me as well. Thank you.

209
00:30:38,980 --> 00:30:45,140
 >> You bring up the question that's been going on for at least 15 years as to whether it's

210
00:30:45,140 --> 00:30:56,020
 the verbatim out of the book or whether it's the making a decision at the moment. And that's

211
00:30:56,020 --> 00:31:01,540
 always the difficult part of it. Because the book may not say it exactly like the moment

212
00:31:01,540 --> 00:31:08,020
 is. And that's always the problem. But I agree with you that, you know, what we're looking

213
00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:13,620
 for -- we've read your appeals. What we're looking for is additional -- well, thought

214
00:31:13,620 --> 00:31:19,700
 behind how the appeal happened or additional information.

215
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:31,200
 >> I do have to say that because the appellants are asking for A to be the only one that's

216
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,460
 considered, I think that helps me lead towards just sustaining the key because an equal argument

217
00:31:36,460 --> 00:31:41,740
 could be made for D in my opinion. If we're going to try to justify that A could be an

218
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:47,580
 answer, then also D could be an answer. So for that reason, I kind of lean towards sustaining

219
00:31:47,580 --> 00:31:58,180
 the key and going verbatim what's in the book. Unless someone can tell me why those two are

220
00:31:58,180 --> 00:32:00,140
 different. >> Okay.

221
00:32:00,140 --> 00:32:12,860
 >> Let's save that list. Cassie? >> The only thing that I would have to say

222
00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:18,300
 against the argument is they're treating environment and exposure almost interchangeably instead

223
00:32:18,300 --> 00:32:24,260
 of saying there's a relationship between the two. So there is a relationship to understand

224
00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:30,700
 between equipment and safety kind of as was stated earlier as far as understanding the

225
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:37,820
 correct equipment in order to have a proper safety. But to say understand the environment,

226
00:32:37,820 --> 00:32:44,900
 to understand the exposure, I think is kind of using those two interchangeably because

227
00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:55,180
 your environment can be an exposure versus there being a relationship between the two.

228
00:32:55,180 --> 00:33:08,380
 >> I hope that makes sense in what I said. >> Okay. Who else? Greg? Where's Greg? Oh.

229
00:33:08,380 --> 00:33:11,020
 >> If I may? >> Yes. There you are.

230
00:33:11,020 --> 00:33:19,180
 >> So when we took this test, it became painfully obvious very early on that this style or theme

231
00:33:19,180 --> 00:33:25,500
 of test was not necessarily testing comprehension but more essentially like the council member

232
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:31,820
 said, the ability to memorize the material. Of the 21 questions that are being appealed

233
00:33:31,820 --> 00:33:40,500
 today, 17 of them are word for word from the text. And actually nine of the department's

234
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:50,180
 responses were it's a direct quote from the text. So knowing that and seeing the test,

235
00:33:50,180 --> 00:33:54,840
 once you realize that's what they're asking for, you answer accordingly. I may not always

236
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,980
 agree with that, but that is what the test is looking for. It became very obvious. I

237
00:33:59,980 --> 00:34:08,140
 would say 90% of the questions on the test were word for word out of the book. So I don't

238
00:34:08,140 --> 00:34:14,660
 disagree with Mr. Bentley, but it's hard to argue with the fact that it is word for word

239
00:34:14,660 --> 00:34:21,980
 out of the text. >> Okay. Who else? Mr. Hudson?

240
00:34:21,980 --> 00:34:28,860
 >> There you are. >> Yes, sir. So I did not write an appeal

241
00:34:28,860 --> 00:34:33,940
 for this question, but is there any way am I allowed to speak on behalf of Bentley and

242
00:34:33,940 --> 00:34:41,420
 add to what he has already previously said? >> Yes, as long as it's brief.

243
00:34:41,420 --> 00:34:47,260
 >> Okay. I believe a lot of the stuff that he's getting comes from chapter nine, which

244
00:34:47,260 --> 00:34:53,860
 is titled reading firefighters and deals exactly with environment and exposure and the amount

245
00:34:53,860 --> 00:35:03,180
 of each and how it relies on or relates to everything that ISO would do. And that's where

246
00:35:03,180 --> 00:35:07,100
 I think he's getting most of that, and I would have to agree with him that question A would

247
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:12,300
 also be a possibility. >> Answer A.

248
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:19,780
 >> Yes, sir. >> Who is?

249
00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:27,180
 >> Rhett. >> Can everybody hear me?

250
00:35:27,180 --> 00:35:33,220
 >> Yes, sir. >> I'm having a hard time trying to access

251
00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:38,860
 some of the names of the commissioners, but I believe her name was Lillian, was asking

252
00:35:38,860 --> 00:35:47,620
 about if the department is trying to gear the testes of memorization versus critical

253
00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:54,100
 thinking. I'd like to hear the response from the department of what the goal is for the

254
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:59,240
 testee, because as mentioned earlier from the commissioners, there's a ton of material,

255
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:07,460
 and a lot of the material overlaps each other in the book, which is very critical on the

256
00:36:07,460 --> 00:36:15,060
 testee to memorize and try to determine what it is we're looking for as a department in

257
00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:21,420
 a goal direction. Keeping in mind, we have standard operating procedures that weren't

258
00:36:21,420 --> 00:36:29,780
 even on here, so I'd like to hear that, because we're only given a certain amount of time

259
00:36:29,780 --> 00:36:36,540
 to go over this material from the time it's dismissed to us to the time the test is actually

260
00:36:36,540 --> 00:36:48,680
 taken. I know that in other departments, you can focus on key areas of each book, basically,

261
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,140
 so I'd like to hear the response of the department.

262
00:36:52,140 --> 00:36:58,780
 Mr. Remmer, I don't want to shut you down. It is kind of beyond the thing that we're

263
00:36:58,780 --> 00:37:05,740
 doing today. That's a longer discussion that I don't disagree that I agree with you that

264
00:37:05,740 --> 00:37:13,060
 it needs to happen. I'm just not sure that today is the opportunity or the chance to

265
00:37:13,060 --> 00:37:20,900
 get into that, but I think it's a question, as I said earlier, that has been floating

266
00:37:20,900 --> 00:37:26,860
 around ever since I've been on the commission, and I think Moses and I were together at that

267
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:35,860
 first meeting, so it's been a while that this whole issue has been discussed, so we probably

268
00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:40,860
 need to do that at another time, if you don't mind. I agree with you that the discussion

269
00:37:40,860 --> 00:37:56,580
 needs to happen, but this is just not the place for that. Okay, Kathy?

270
00:37:56,580 --> 00:38:06,300
 I know that they have brought up chapter nine. I've looked through it, and I don't see exposures

271
00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:12,460
 mentioned in it. I only see environment, so I was hoping that the appellants would give

272
00:38:12,460 --> 00:38:22,660
 us where they're finding it in the book, if they're going to cite it.

273
00:38:22,660 --> 00:38:39,020
 Anyone going to take that one? I don't have a book with me, so I can't look

274
00:38:39,020 --> 00:38:46,820
 at it. The problem with virtual, right? When I read

275
00:38:46,820 --> 00:38:52,300
 through this, and I read the appeal, and I understand where people are coming from, but

276
00:38:52,300 --> 00:39:02,460
 as I look at all of these answers, this is just me talking, of all of the answers, environment,

277
00:39:02,460 --> 00:39:12,260
 exposure, cost, benefit, equipment, safety, building construction, site access, the one

278
00:39:12,260 --> 00:39:21,200
 that I'm the most concerned as a citizen of Denton is safety, and out of safety, because

279
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:29,480
 of safety, provide equipment that's appropriate, and that's what's made me think that's the

280
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,960
 right answer. The most important thing of all of those answers

281
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:43,460
 is safety, your safety, because you're trying to keep me safe. It's my job to provide you

282
00:39:43,460 --> 00:39:52,420
 with the equipment that you need to be safe, regardless of all the other things. That's

283
00:39:52,420 --> 00:39:58,380
 where I was coming from when I came up with my decision on this, which is obviously to

284
00:39:58,380 --> 00:40:09,900
 sustain the key. That's where I was coming from.

285
00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:19,060
 Any other comments? I would entertain a motion on question 11.

286
00:40:19,060 --> 00:40:31,100
 I make a motion that we sustain the key and schedule the time for answering that difficult

287
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:40,780
 question. Second. Is there any discussion between the

288
00:40:40,780 --> 00:40:51,380
 commissioners? I think it was Mr. Coyle who mentioned this.

289
00:40:51,380 --> 00:40:57,340
 I think that we should know by now how the test is written, and even though the question

290
00:40:57,340 --> 00:41:00,620
 keeps coming up, but if it's written in that way, and that's the understanding that the

291
00:41:00,620 --> 00:41:05,740
 people that are taking it know, then it might be able to help us go a little bit faster

292
00:41:05,740 --> 00:41:15,220
 through some of these, if what the department is expecting, the verbatim answers. That's

293
00:41:15,220 --> 00:41:23,140
 just my comment for that. Anything else? All in favor of question 11,

294
00:41:23,140 --> 00:41:34,300
 sustain the key, say aye. Aye. I would say oppose, but I think we all voted.

295
00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:47,540
 Next is question 15, and that's Mr. Jones. Where'd he go? There you are. You keep moving

296
00:41:47,540 --> 00:41:54,180
 around on the screen. This is actually the one that had the third

297
00:41:54,180 --> 00:42:00,060
 reference that was faulty. That's my fault. But incident safety officer pages 172.1 and

298
00:42:00,060 --> 00:42:08,760
 210, as mentioned in there, they all discuss those very things that I put for answer D.

299
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:29,420
 So that's why I feel like that should be an appropriate response as well.

300
00:42:29,420 --> 00:42:35,820
 Questions of the appellant? Let's see. Mr. Jones, could you show us again

301
00:42:35,820 --> 00:42:40,860
 where you got that reference on number of first responders?

302
00:42:40,860 --> 00:42:45,580
 I'm sorry. I don't have that reference in front of me, unfortunately.

303
00:42:45,580 --> 00:42:56,940
 Okay. All right. Thank you. In your PO, you mentioned page 171, 210,

304
00:42:56,940 --> 00:43:12,780
 and 350. That 350 is a different book. It shouldn't be considered.

305
00:43:12,780 --> 00:43:28,140
 Any other questions of the appellant? Department of response?

306
00:43:28,140 --> 00:43:33,140
 Let's sustain the key. Questions directly from the text. The appeals, two references

307
00:43:33,140 --> 00:43:37,220
 to the other sections of ISO text are based on opinion of the appellant and not stated

308
00:43:37,220 --> 00:43:44,820
 in the text. And then the third reference is out of a different book.

309
00:43:44,820 --> 00:43:53,180
 Questions of fire? No questions from me.

310
00:43:53,180 --> 00:43:58,180
 None. Anyone like to speak in opposition to the

311
00:43:58,180 --> 00:44:07,140
 appeal? If I may? Just once again, I would like to point

312
00:44:07,140 --> 00:44:15,220
 out on page 209, on the left-hand side, under control zones, the question is word for word,

313
00:44:15,220 --> 00:44:22,700
 beginning with two issues apply. So once again, it is directly out of the text.

314
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:28,880
 Thank you. Okay. Thank you.

315
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:38,140
 I would entertain a motion on question 15. I motion to sustain the key.

316
00:44:38,140 --> 00:44:47,460
 I'll second. Any discussion?

317
00:44:47,460 --> 00:44:52,300
 Hearing none, all in favor of sustaining the key of 15, say aye.

318
00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:56,680
 Aye. Okay.

319
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:03,380
 Next is question 17. Mr. Enos.

320
00:45:03,380 --> 00:45:10,140
 Yes, sir. Okay.

321
00:45:10,140 --> 00:45:15,180
 So I agree with the department and with the way that it's keyed. It is out of the book

322
00:45:15,180 --> 00:45:29,940
 on -- see here, answered. I put a as another answer that should be corrected.

323
00:45:29,940 --> 00:45:35,580
 On page 622, as it says in my appeal right there, it talks about the maximum loading

324
00:45:35,580 --> 00:45:41,820
 for any unsupported aerial device occurs at angles of 70 and 80 degrees from horizontal.

325
00:45:41,820 --> 00:45:48,180
 And as the amount of extension affects the device, the aerial device stress.

326
00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:53,380
 So the maximum amount of stress on an aerial device, when it says considering long extensions

327
00:45:53,380 --> 00:45:58,860
 at low angles for aerial loose, places maximum amount of stress on the device.

328
00:45:58,860 --> 00:46:05,180
 Right there, it says the maximum loading, which would add stress to it, is at a horizontal

329
00:46:05,180 --> 00:46:09,700
 at 70 to 80 degrees. So that's why I'm saying that A should also

330
00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:13,220
 be accepted. It's because it says on a different page,

331
00:46:13,220 --> 00:46:17,300
 it talks about the maximum loading, which refers to the maximum amount of stress that

332
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:25,420
 would be placed on the apparatus, the aerial apparatus, at low angles.

333
00:46:25,420 --> 00:46:31,140
 And then it goes on to say that aerials operating at low angles, at a low angle of elevation

334
00:46:31,140 --> 00:46:40,620
 and at a long extension are at their weakest operational point or position.

335
00:46:40,620 --> 00:46:49,340
 And that's all on page 622 on the bottom left side, the two paragraphs that are right there.

336
00:46:49,340 --> 00:46:56,380
 My question, and I'll go first, because the question is, are there questions for the appellant?

337
00:46:56,380 --> 00:47:01,120
 What about answer B? Whenever possible, this application should

338
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:08,820
 be avoided, which is dealing with the angle. Isn't that true also?

339
00:47:08,820 --> 00:47:11,180
 Yes, sir. Okay.

340
00:47:11,180 --> 00:47:16,140
 Yes, sir. So if A is correct and B is correct, what's

341
00:47:16,140 --> 00:47:21,540
 the only answer to the question that would be correct?

342
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:26,580
 I guess when you put it like that, you can say D.

343
00:47:26,580 --> 00:47:36,060
 Yeah, because it's all of the above. Okay. I think I just stole Collin's show.

344
00:47:36,060 --> 00:47:41,780
 Any other questions for the appellant? No.

345
00:47:41,780 --> 00:47:51,740
 Fire response? Sustain the key.

346
00:47:51,740 --> 00:47:58,780
 I think I just did. Any questions of fire?

347
00:47:58,780 --> 00:48:03,300
 I have no questions of fire. Okay.

348
00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:10,640
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

349
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:15,520
 Seeing none, I'd entertain a motion on question 17.

350
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,140
 I motion that we sustain the key for question 17.

351
00:48:19,140 --> 00:48:22,180
 I'll second. Discussion?

352
00:48:22,180 --> 00:48:27,420
 Do we need to talk about it? I'm okay.

353
00:48:27,420 --> 00:48:32,180
 All in favor of sustaining the key of question 17, say aye.

354
00:48:32,180 --> 00:48:34,940
 Aye. Opposed?

355
00:48:34,940 --> 00:48:44,200
 None. Next is question 20.

356
00:48:44,200 --> 00:49:03,860
 To appellants, Mr. Conaway. Have I seen that name and Mr. Gomez?

357
00:49:03,860 --> 00:49:15,980
 The question says most new aerial ladders are equipped with a telescoping waterway that

358
00:49:15,980 --> 00:49:21,200
 extends toward the top of the ladder. Generally, the minimum internal diameter

359
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:32,560
 of these piping systems is A, 4 inches, B, 5 inches, C, 3 1/2 inches, D, 3 inches.

360
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:42,960
 The appellants, Mr. Gomez says, although the question is a direct quote from the text,

361
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,900
 the information is generalized and nonspecific in nature, therefore, the question should

362
00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:53,920
 be discarded. Mr. Conaway's appeal says the question worded

363
00:49:53,920 --> 00:50:02,420
 vaguely, the question says generally and most with that wording, all answers should be accepting.

364
00:50:02,420 --> 00:50:14,400
 Fire response? Sustained the key, direct quote from the

365
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:22,980
 book, none of these other diameters are even mentioned.

366
00:50:22,980 --> 00:50:31,120
 Questions of fire? Anyone like to speak in opposition to the

367
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:42,700
 appeal? I will entertain a motion on question 20.

368
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:54,280
 I'll move to sustain the key. I'll second.

369
00:50:54,280 --> 00:51:03,000
 Seconded. Question 20, to sustain the key. Discussion?

370
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:13,000
 The word generally. That usually implies that there is some variety

371
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:34,040
 here rather than saying specifically or always. Even though the gentleman did not mention

372
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:47,200
 another size, when you use that adverb generally or that description, that does imply some

373
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:57,840
 variety of possibilities. John, to go back to the argument that I know

374
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:07,520
 Colin is getting ready to make, sorry, Italian chief, direct quote from the book, generally,

375
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:16,560
 the minimum internal diameter in this piping is four inches or 100 millimeters.

376
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:21,800
 So the book itself uses the term generally. I know what you're saying.

377
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:28,680
 I understand. That's what I'm saying.

378
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:33,280
 When you use the word generally, you kind of open the door there.

379
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,080
 But that is the only one that's listed. It's the only one they talk about.

380
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,320
 I agree. And I did sustain the key.

381
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:46,800
 I'm just saying that the word generally there does kind of give you an opening.

382
00:52:46,800 --> 00:53:00,320
 I can get you to, we'll get you the address of the author and you can, we have a motion

383
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:07,240
 in a second. Do we have a, Seth?

384
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:10,920
 But the baby's gone. The baby's gone, I put her in her swing.

385
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:15,840
 A new fireman in training. Okay, sorry.

386
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:23,520
 So I do agree, this is a tough question for you all, especially since it even says generally

387
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:33,400
 in the book, would it be an option for you all to take A, B and C, or even just the numbers

388
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:49,200
 that are closest to the four inches, since it does say generally?

389
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,960
 I'm not sure that we can actually go that route. We can either, we'd either have to

390
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:59,800
 throw the question out. We're going to have to throw all the other

391
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:09,400
 questions out that have to be memorized. And I see on page 567, it makes reference to

392
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:15,560
 another type of, like a bed ladder pipe where it talked about three and three and a half

393
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:20,760
 inches, but we're talking about the new aerial ladders and that's what's under that telescoping

394
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,120
 waterway system. And so that one does say by the book and it's

395
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,160
 the four inches. I could see if someone read this, they would

396
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,360
 have remembered, oh, they said something about three and three and a half, but it was referencing

397
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,440
 to something different. So I would, I still will sustain the key

398
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,200
 on this. The motion is to sustain the key. So that's

399
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:44,120
 on the floor. I'm all in favor of sustaining the key.

400
00:54:44,120 --> 00:55:02,240
 I just know that you, you got some issues there.

401
00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:10,680
 So do we need to, are we going to vote? Are we done or on this one or where are we?

402
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:15,120
 You're muted. Okay. I know I'm talking to Stephanie.

403
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:21,960
 Okay, go ahead. It was a procedural question.

404
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:27,440
 So sorry, I was just going to say, I think that was a book's way of covering that generally

405
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:32,560
 it is the four inches, but some departments can defer from it.

406
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:37,480
 So it's not an always option. There are other options to it.

407
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:45,680
 It's just the most common. Okay.

408
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:54,640
 Motion and second to sustain the key of question 20 is on the floor.

409
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:59,640
 I would, all in favor say aye. Aye.

410
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,520
 Opposed? None.

411
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,040
 So sustain the key. That was my procedural question.

412
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:11,400
 There's a motion on the floor. Next is item 30.

413
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:27,520
 Mr. Remmer. Yes, sir. Can you hear me?

414
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,600
 Yes, sir. Okay.

415
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,760
 After further looking at this from the time that I made my appeal, I don't have anything

416
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:39,720
 to add where I was getting my information. There's not enough information to make a justification

417
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:49,040
 for an appeal for this question. So I sustain the key on this.

418
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,640
 Does that kind of put words in your mouth and you can say no?

419
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:56,920
 Does that mean you're withdrawing your appeal? Yes, sir.

420
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,240
 Okay. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

421
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:05,040
 No, I understand. Thank you.

422
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:11,360
 Okay. Next is question 32.

423
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:20,880
 And that's Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir.

424
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:27,000
 I don't really have anything to add, especially after the previous appeals that were kind

425
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:34,080
 of going off word for word what the book has stated.

426
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:42,480
 Okay. Again, I'm going to ask you and I don't mean to -- it's not my place to put words

427
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,480
 in your mouth. Do you want to go forward with the appeal?

428
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,640
 Yes, sir. I'd like to go forward with it.

429
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:53,040
 Okay. I think on page 299 of the driver operator

430
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:57,960
 book is the reference. Yes.

431
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:08,480
 Well, they say 300. 300 is actually where the question -- the

432
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:22,560
 answer -- the correct answer came from. But on page 299 is where my argument was.

433
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,880
 Could you refresh our memory just real briefly about your appeal?

434
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:32,280
 It's been a while since I've read it. I don't know about the others, but I've slept

435
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:38,800
 since I read these. So the question had to do with a centripetal

436
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:45,040
 fire pump and pressure. And I said that on page 299 it states,

437
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:50,120
 "The speed of the impeller dictates the amount of pressure that is developed."

438
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:55,740
 So I suggested that answer B also be correct in addition to answer D.

439
00:58:55,740 --> 00:59:17,200
 If -- okay. Are you saying that B is the only correct

440
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,760
 answer in your appeal? Again, I'm not -- I don't want to put words

441
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,440
 in your mouth. I'm just asking you the question.

442
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:35,360
 No, sir. I'm not saying it is the only -- I would venture to say that it is the most correct.

443
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:41,640
 But the others are correct. Yes, sir.

444
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:54,040
 Other questions of the appellant? Who are we speaking to at this moment?

445
00:59:54,040 --> 01:00:03,280
 Mr. Hudson, Cole Hudson. Mr. Hudson, as soon as I can find Mr. Hudson.

446
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:05,440
 Speak up, Cole. Say something so we can see the --

447
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,680
 Oh, I see you. I see you. Thank you, Cole.

448
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:14,280
 So I'm on page 300. And at the very top, it says the three main

449
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:21,840
 factors -- excuse me. It says three main factors influence a centrifugal fire pump's discharge

450
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:26,840
 pressure. And then it gives the three bullet points

451
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:31,720
 there. And then when you go to the question, it uses

452
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:37,880
 those three bullet points. And then it has D. All of the above are correct.

453
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:45,560
 So why would you choose A over D? The only reason I chose A over D during the

454
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:52,320
 test was because of what I previously said on page 299 where it was a separate sentence

455
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:57,600
 that stated the only one of those three that was included in my reference sentence was

456
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:03,320
 the speed of the impeller dictates the amount of pressure that is developed.

457
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:08,600
 Thank you. Yes, sir.

458
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:17,080
 Other questions? Fire response.

459
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:21,040
 Staying the key, the appeal takes the information out of context.

460
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:25,280
 The book reads the speed of the impeller dictates the amount of pressure that is developed.

461
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,000
 Nowhere does this section talk about discharge pressure being solely dependent on the impeller

462
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,600
 speed. The book does clearly state the three main

463
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:36,160
 factors influencing centrifugal pumps fired, discharge pressure, the amount of water being

464
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,840
 discharged, the speed at which the impeller is turning, and the pressure of water when

465
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:50,960
 it enters the pump. Questions of fire?

466
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:56,000
 I have no questions of fire. None.

467
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:06,280
 Would anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

468
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:10,320
 I haven't seen anyone. I would entertain a motion from the commissioners.

469
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:18,080
 I move that we sustain the key. I'll second.

470
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:23,520
 Okay. Been moved and seconded to sustain the key on question 32.

471
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:32,680
 Other discussion? Hearing none, all in favor of sustaining

472
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:37,400
 the key on 32, say aye. Aye.

473
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:42,040
 Opposed? Motion carries.

474
01:02:42,040 --> 01:03:10,400
 Next is question 34, we have two appellants. Mr. Jones, you're carrying the torch.

475
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:20,640
 Again, the question does read and the answer does read straight out of the book.

476
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:25,280
 I would argue, though, that also the fourth principle allows that fluid pressure at the

477
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:41,160
 bottom of containers greater than at the top of the container, as is the fourth principle.

478
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:52,240
 Sorry. Say that one more time.

479
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:57,280
 The fourth principle provides that the intensity of any fluid pressure at the bottom of a container

480
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:02,520
 is greater than at the top of a container, that it's proportional to its depth.

481
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:06,920
 That being said, I think that A reads that if you read the question, it says fluid pressure

482
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:14,720
 is a point in a fluid at rest, is of the greatest intensity at the lowest point, I believe that's

483
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:32,240
 also true in addition to question C. Answer C.

484
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:36,520
 In your appeal, which I don't know if you have in front of you or not, but you have

485
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:42,040
 a quote that I'm not laying my eyes on right now that says the pressure at the bottom of

486
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:48,640
 the second container is twice that of the first?

487
01:04:48,640 --> 01:05:01,560
 That is the second paragraph under the fourth principle on page 173.

488
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:10,520
 And it's referencing figure 5.8 at the bottom of the page.

489
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,080
 Okay. Okay, I remember.

490
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:23,500
 So that principle is dealing with, as I read it, that principle is dealing with the size

491
01:05:23,500 --> 01:05:32,400
 of the container, not necessarily the general rule of pressure being more at the top or

492
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:41,200
 the bottom, because it talks about the pressure difference between the three sizes, the one

493
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:50,280
 foot two feet and three feet of the third container as I read that.

494
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:52,440
 Help me out.

495
01:05:52,440 --> 01:06:02,600
 I'm not a scientist, I don't know.

496
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:08,640
 I know that we are, again, this is the argument of cognitive thinking versus quoting it out

497
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:10,000
 of a book.

498
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:15,080
 We learn a lot of fluid dynamics about elevation pressure and those being higher as you go

499
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:16,080
 deeper.

500
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:20,200
 So that's where I'm drawing those conclusions and reading that fourth principle that any

501
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:29,720
 point and lower in a container would be of higher intensity than it higher at the container.

502
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:40,800
 Any other questions of the appellant?

503
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:42,320
 I do have a question, please.

504
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:46,400
 Mr. Jones, thank you again.

505
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:59,440
 I'm looking at page 172 and under the second principle, it says it gives an answer, but

506
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:06,320
 in the question, it doesn't ask for a principle, it just says fluid pressure at the point and

507
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,920
 fluid at the rest.

508
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:17,480
 So I didn't know, is there a difference when looking at fluid pressure in general or when

509
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,800
 you're looking at fluid pressure in light of the different principles?

510
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:26,760
 These five principles, I don't know, does it change?

511
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,240
 My answer to your question is I don't know.

512
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:37,120
 The question asked at a point, a fluid point at rest, what is the true of that point?

513
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,840
 It is true that it exerts the same pressure in all directions.

514
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:44,760
 In my opinion, it's also true that it is of greater pressure, the fluid pressure at that

515
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:56,760
 point, deeper in the container than it is at the top of that container.

516
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:03,040
 I know the verbatim answer there on 172, but it's under the second principle.

517
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:07,800
 So I guess my question was, if you were to take all the principles and just give me a

518
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:16,760
 general statement about fluid pressure, which would be the most correct answer?

519
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,200
 I don't believe that B is the only correct answer.

520
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:25,880
 I believe that it is also higher at the lowest point.

521
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:30,000
 The further you go down inside the vessel.

522
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,400
 That's my opinion again.

523
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:41,080
 I'm also not a scientist, but as I understand it, or whatever that means, second principle

524
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:46,800
 says that it's equal in a container.

525
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:54,920
 The height of the container, the depth of the container is what changes the pressure.

526
01:08:54,920 --> 01:09:02,280
 Not the highest, lowest within the container, but the depth of the container itself, whether

527
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:04,500
 it's this or this.

528
01:09:04,500 --> 01:09:07,520
 So that's where the second principle actually.

529
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:11,040
 The second principle applies in the fourth principle.

530
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:16,640
 The fourth principle is just talking about different sizes of containers, is the way

531
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:20,440
 I understand it.

532
01:09:20,440 --> 01:09:22,440
 I'm not a scientist either.

533
01:09:22,440 --> 01:09:27,520
 Would you like me to respond to that?

534
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:32,500
 Can I ask a question?

535
01:09:32,500 --> 01:09:38,080
 In figure 5.8, it's talking about the three different sizes of the containers, and it

536
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:43,040
 talks about that the one that measures two feet is a higher pressure than the one that

537
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:46,280
 measures only one foot and so on and so forth.

538
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:55,720
 All of these, are these considered fluids at rest, even though one is more full than

539
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:56,720
 the other?

540
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:02,800
 Are they all considered fluid at rest?

541
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:04,520
 I consider them fluid at rest.

542
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:07,320
 I don't read any different in the book.

543
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:12,760
 Principle 2 is considered fluids at rest because it takes into account fluids in a motion.

544
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:18,560
 The rest of them, I assume those are fluids at rest, and that the fourth principle refers

545
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:25,160
 to that it's proportional to its depth, so that any fluid would be, fluid pressure would

546
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:31,000
 be highest at the bottom of the container versus the top.

547
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:42,200
 Both answers are correct then, because what I'm looking at is fluid pressure at a point

548
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:48,080
 in fluid at rest is of the same intensity in all directions, meaning if I'm looking

549
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:53,080
 at that container that's two feet and I'm looking just at the, I don't know, two inches

550
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:58,000
 above where the water begins, if I'm measuring right there, the pressure is equal in all

551
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:00,680
 directions at that same depth, right?

552
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:07,920
 But what he's saying is, if I go higher, that's where the pressure changes.

553
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:12,440
 Is that correct?

554
01:11:12,440 --> 01:11:14,520
 Are you asking me, Commissioner?

555
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:15,520
 Yes.

556
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:22,120
 So the fourth principle is saying, I'm sorry, in my understanding, the second principle

557
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:27,280
 is referring to any velocity in fluids that that would change the pressure.

558
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:32,560
 The fourth principle assumes, in my opinion, that those fluids are at rest and that a container

559
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:38,120
 would have a higher fluid intensity at the bottom than it would at the top.

560
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:45,680
 Yeah, I think we're talking about two, I think that's talking about two different things.

561
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:46,680
 Yes.

562
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:53,560
 One is talking about the amount of fluid and one is talking about just fluid at rest at

563
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,680
 any one given point.

564
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:01,160
 The second principle is fluid at rest, and that's what the question is.

565
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:06,800
 Now, I understand there were some questions, some comments.

566
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:09,960
 Shea, there's Shea.

567
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:12,080
 Yes, sir.

568
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:18,320
 I think what some of the confusion is here is, if you read on the second principle, it

569
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,760
 says fluid pressure at a point at rest.

570
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:27,720
 So that's saying, it's in a confined, it even says later on, it says this principle is using

571
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:28,720
 hydrostatic testing.

572
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:34,320
 We're not talking about the depth of the, like the height of an open container.

573
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:39,000
 See like in the fourth principle, it says the pressure of a liquid in an open, not fluid

574
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:40,000
 pressure.

575
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:46,600
 So we're talking about the pressure in a confined space, just like in our hydrants and the main

576
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:50,520
 water pipes that run underground, they're all at rest, which is how we are able to do

577
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:51,520
 our hydrostatic testing.

578
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:57,160
 So it's pressure, same in all, in all locations, same intensity in all directions.

579
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:04,640
 Just to reiterate, talking about fluid pressure in an open container.

580
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:13,360
 Mr. Wolf, you said, I think Shea pretty much said the same things that I was going to say.

581
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:17,080
 The fourth principle is talking about an open vessel.

582
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:21,400
 You can picture like a pool, like obviously there's going to be more pressure at the bottom

583
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:28,320
 of the pool than at the top, but the second principle is not referring to an open vessel.

584
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:33,320
 You can imagine the fire hose, there's not going to be more pressure at the bottom of

585
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:35,600
 the fire hose than at the top.

586
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:40,640
 If I'm applying 100 PSI to that fire hose, there's going to be the same amount of pressure

587
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:43,200
 at any point in that fire hose.

588
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:48,320
 So that's the, I think those are the really the big differences between the second and

589
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:53,980
 fourth principle.

590
01:13:53,980 --> 01:13:59,960
 Which brings me back to my question of a general statement about fluid pressure.

591
01:13:59,960 --> 01:14:05,800
 It doesn't, it doesn't give a context.

592
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:13,200
 When you have these different, differing instances, to me, those are going to change.

593
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:21,960
 But if you ask about fluid pressure in a pool versus fluid pressure in a hose or in a vessel,

594
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,040
 I would think you're going to have some variety.

595
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:27,040
 That's just me.

596
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:31,880
 Like the rest of you, I'm not a scientist, I'm just trying to read the document here.

597
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:41,000
 But I'm just struggling with that, with the absence of an identifying point there.

598
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:48,080
 Like for example, under the second principle, or if you're dealing with a water hose or

599
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:57,600
 you're dealing with a pool of water, then making a statement about the fluid pressure.

600
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:59,040
 So that's just me, personally.

601
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:01,280
 So I'm struggling with that.

602
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:07,720
 So I'll go back to you, Mr. Chair.

603
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:08,720
 John?

604
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:09,720
 Yes.

605
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:10,720
 John Jones.

606
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:11,720
 I'm sorry.

607
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:12,720
 Oh, okay.

608
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:18,760
 The only argument I would make is the question doesn't differentiate between open, closed,

609
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:19,760
 pressurized, non-pressurized.

610
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:20,760
 It just says a point at rest.

611
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:35,560
 That's why I was asking if that second figure would be considered fluid at rest as well.

612
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:37,800
 Okay.

613
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:42,360
 Fire response.

614
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:43,360
 Again the key.

615
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:47,520
 Nowhere does it talk about comparing two or more different amounts of heights of fluid

616
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:55,640
 or open vessel at all, like the fourth principle of water is based on.

617
01:15:55,640 --> 01:16:00,800
 Questions of fire?

618
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:01,800
 I do.

619
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:15,680
 I still have a difficulty with the absence of a defining introduction there, defining

620
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:21,880
 introduction being under the fourth principle or under the second principle or when coming

621
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:33,600
 to what, just to make a blanket statement, I don't know, the verbatim response is underneath

622
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:35,080
 the second principle.

623
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:39,920
 The question is, does that apply in each and every instance?

624
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,520
 And that's where I'm struggling.

625
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:51,160
 So the scientific principles are on the very basic qualities of water and pressure.

626
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:57,680
 So if you don't add anything to it, that pressure, which it talks about at rest, is going to

627
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:00,160
 be equal in every direction.

628
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:06,760
 But as soon as you add a different factor, like an open container or height, then things

629
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,640
 can change.

630
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:15,640
 That number two is saying with no other factors involved, just the fact that the fluid is

631
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:21,640
 at rest, the water pressure will be going, at any point will be given, distribute out

632
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:27,400
 in every direction.

633
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:28,560
 Thank you.

634
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:36,440
 If we think about the water coming into our house, water's not on, it's not moving, but

635
01:17:36,440 --> 01:17:44,720
 the pressure is working in 360 degrees, ready for us to use it whenever we're using it.

636
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:52,720
 And that's what this question is asking, because it's saying fluid pressure at rest.

637
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:57,240
 When we change things, that's what changes the perception.

638
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:02,760
 So, Cassie, I understand you had waved.

639
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:13,520
 Yes, sir, I was just going to add the way that I view it, this is how we do our hosting,

640
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:20,440
 the same intensity in all directions, we pressurize the hose with caps on it, and there's that

641
01:18:20,440 --> 01:18:25,180
 same pressure exerted across the entire hose, not more so at the bottom, less at the top,

642
01:18:25,180 --> 01:18:30,840
 and that's how we're able to check it for any damages, and so that's just how I'm able

643
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:35,440
 to differentiate, because it is a little bit confusing, but that's how I was able to think

644
01:18:35,440 --> 01:18:45,280
 of it at rest, being in all directions, versus what Johnny Jones had said.

645
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:46,280
 Okay.

646
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:55,240
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

647
01:18:55,240 --> 01:19:03,520
 I would entertain a motion from the commissioners.

648
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:07,880
 I move that we accept the key.

649
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,920
 I'll second.

650
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:20,440
 Motion and second to sustain the key for question 34 in discussion.

651
01:19:20,440 --> 01:19:21,440
 All in favor, say aye.

652
01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:22,440
 Aye.

653
01:19:22,440 --> 01:19:23,440
 Aye.

654
01:19:23,440 --> 01:19:29,000
 I'm going to vote against.

655
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:41,960
 I didn't, it's not enough clarity there for me, so thank you.

656
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:45,080
 Did I go too quickly on the discussion?

657
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:48,320
 No, no, you're fine.

658
01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:57,160
 I just felt like, you know, I thought I verbalized pretty well that I'm looking for a distinction,

659
01:19:57,160 --> 01:19:58,160
 and that's for me.

660
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:02,880
 But if I have a difficulty, I could see it as possible with someone else having a difficulty

661
01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:03,880
 as well.

662
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:08,680
 But just to get the process going, I had to go ahead and make the motion, so we could

663
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,680
 at least get it on the floor.

664
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:12,680
 Okay.

665
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:17,280
 Are we allowed to make the motion and then vote against it?

666
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:18,280
 Absolutely.

667
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:19,280
 Okay.

668
01:20:19,280 --> 01:20:27,280
 It's a motion that, that's why there's three of us, but we can absolutely, we can absolutely

669
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:28,280
 vote against a motion.

670
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:35,120
 I mean, okay, I guess it's already done, but like wouldn't the same thing be to throw the

671
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:41,320
 question out, to make a motion to throw the question out?

672
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:49,920
 You could do that, I mean, but I just, I guess I've done this in a number of settings, so

673
01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:54,960
 I knew that just to get the discussion going, I would go ahead and make the motion so we

674
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:58,400
 could get there and move on.

675
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:05,520
 His motion could have been against it to vote no, and then it would have been, it could

676
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:09,160
 have made an alternative and we could have voted on that one.

677
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:18,220
 I think that's the way Robert's Rules of Order would treat it.

678
01:21:18,220 --> 01:21:19,220
 I can't remember.

679
01:21:19,220 --> 01:21:20,220
 I was going to say something.

680
01:21:20,220 --> 01:21:21,400
 I can't remember what it was now.

681
01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:28,960
 We already voted, but it would have been good to see how many people got it right.

682
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:35,440
 We have generally not tried not to use that as a factor.

683
01:21:35,440 --> 01:21:38,480
 That's kind of not fair.

684
01:21:38,480 --> 01:21:43,400
 We've decided, we've decided over the years, so we could discuss that later.

685
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:51,040
 You said someone else had their hand up, but I mean, it's already done deal now, so.

686
01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:52,040
 Brett?

687
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:53,040
 Brett?

688
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:54,040
 There you are.

689
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:55,040
 Yes.

690
01:21:55,040 --> 01:22:06,880
 If it's a done deal, then I was going to make a comment earlier and Mr. John Baines was

691
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:13,280
 talking when he voted against it, but I'm not sure what I'm at liberty to say at this

692
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:16,280
 point.

693
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:29,640
 You're testing my Robert's Rules of Order here.

694
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:35,400
 Moving on, okay.

695
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:42,960
 Yeah, since it's, since it is a done deal, we'd have to, we'd have to vote to resend

696
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:46,080
 the motion and start all over again.

697
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:54,080
 Is that, is that what we want to do, commissioners?

698
01:22:54,080 --> 01:23:01,400
 I'm here to help facilitate the process, so if that's okay, then we can do that.

699
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:08,480
 I just knew that I'm having trouble with the language, and so it's a little confusing for

700
01:23:08,480 --> 01:23:12,320
 me, and I said perhaps it may be confusing for others.

701
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:14,480
 Maybe not for everyone, but for a few of us.

702
01:23:14,480 --> 01:23:21,400
 So maybe that's a, that's a recommendation that Chief Skipper has taken about this question.

703
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:28,120
 If not, that's a subtle hint that he's going through now.

704
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:30,640
 All right.

705
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:34,840
 So the motion carries two to one.

706
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:38,400
 Next is question 36.

707
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:45,720
 Oh, hang on just a second.

708
01:23:45,720 --> 01:24:10,760
 Removing Books.

709
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:13,760
 Okay.

710
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:21,040
 Removing because I've got my book out now, so we have two appeals, two appellants, Mr.

711
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:22,040
 Davis.

712
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,960
 There he is.

713
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:25,960
 And Mr. Punches.

714
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:31,160
 Mr. Davis, we haven't heard from you all morning, so you've been sitting there very duty-ish,

715
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:34,080
 so we'll let you go first.

716
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:37,600
 Commissioner Lilly, please don't ask how many people missed this, because it's probably

717
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:42,600
 just me and Punchy.

718
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:47,400
 We have decided that the most important thing is memorization, word for word.

719
01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:52,840
 Where I messed up was I did not memorize page two, and I memorized page 17.

720
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:59,600
 And page 17, right in the middle of the page, it says leadership requires vision.

721
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:07,000
 And so that's why I answered D and felt like that was a good answer.

722
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:15,040
 I realize A and D can't both, but I would at least appreciate it if y'all look at it

723
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:18,040
 and see if you could make them all correct.

724
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:23,880
 That's it.

725
01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:41,280
 Okay, Mr. Jones, oh, no, I'm sorry, Mr. Punches.

726
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:49,040
 Where is he?

727
01:25:49,040 --> 01:26:06,280
 He's not, he's right now, he's not on the call.

728
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:07,280
 Let's see.

729
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:09,040
 Let's see if he calls back in very quickly.

730
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:31,480
 Can we just hang on for a second?

731
01:26:31,480 --> 01:26:45,360
 If he comes in, I'm going to read his, I'm going to read his appeal.

732
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:51,200
 If he comes back in, we can maybe talk with him about any.

733
01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:59,040
 Okay, so he's, he's out of the appeal.

734
01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:01,080
 Okay.

735
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:03,940
 Questions of the appellant?

736
01:27:03,940 --> 01:27:15,800
 Yes, I did have a question of, of Mr. Punches, he's, he's not on the, he can't answer your

737
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:16,800
 question.

738
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:17,800
 Oh, I'm sorry.

739
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:18,800
 That was Mr. Davis.

740
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:19,800
 That was Mr. Davis.

741
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:20,800
 I apologize.

742
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:21,800
 I apologize.

743
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:22,800
 Mr. Davis.

744
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:23,800
 How are you today?

745
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:24,800
 Oh, he can't hear me.

746
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:25,800
 He can't talk.

747
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:26,800
 Okay.

748
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:32,520
 I was just going to say you had referenced another page and could you, could you repeat

749
01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:34,540
 what you had on that page for me, please?

750
01:27:34,540 --> 01:27:45,760
 I want to, I'm looking at, at page, page two under chapter one and you're on page 17.

751
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:49,600
 Page 17, middle of the page, it says leadership requires vision.

752
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:50,600
 Okay.

753
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:51,600
 Okay.

754
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:58,080
 I see, so it didn't, it didn't really list any of those that are listed here.

755
01:27:58,080 --> 01:27:59,080
 Okay.

756
01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:04,760
 Well, well then, okay, all right, that gives me my next question, which I'm going to ask

757
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:07,160
 of a fire in just a minute.

758
01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:15,200
 Thank you, Mr. Davis.

759
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:17,200
 Any other questions?

760
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:24,200
 Check, check the paragraph just above the headline that says no one trained me.

761
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,760
 Oh, that's yeah, I'm there.

762
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:27,760
 I have it.

763
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:28,760
 I see it.

764
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:29,760
 Okay.

765
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:30,760
 Yeah.

766
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:31,760
 Yeah.

767
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:32,760
 All right.

768
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:33,760
 Fire response.

769
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:34,760
 He's unmuted.

770
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:35,760
 I hit it.

771
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:36,760
 Sorry.

772
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:47,080
 Sustained the key, direct quote from the book, the test question is not a limiting question.

773
01:28:47,080 --> 01:28:53,120
 It does not state leadership only requires, so Roman numbers one, two and three are all

774
01:28:53,120 --> 01:29:04,000
 clearly correct, making a, the best answer.

775
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:05,600
 Question of fire.

776
01:29:05,600 --> 01:29:11,240
 I was just basically going to see how we, how do we merge those two, you know, that,

777
01:29:11,240 --> 01:29:18,760
 you know, on page 17 leadership requires vision and then I clearly see, you know, the section

778
01:29:18,760 --> 01:29:27,600
 here that's referenced, but I was just trying to, in my mind, once again, make sure I give

779
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:30,680
 the appellants every opportunity to be correct.

780
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:33,400
 So that's where I am.

781
01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:37,600
 I'm probing to make sure that we've given them every opportunity.

782
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:40,960
 So thank you for your patience.

783
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:41,960
 So vision.

784
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:42,960
 I'm sorry.

785
01:29:42,960 --> 01:29:43,960
 Go ahead.

786
01:29:43,960 --> 01:29:51,320
 I was just going to say that on the, I think it was one of their justifications, it has,

787
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:55,840
 it says, or it points out that it says it's only one line, so assuming that it's only

788
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:56,840
 a one word answer.

789
01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:02,680
 If it was a one word answer, then vision would be the correct one.

790
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:07,200
 The way that the book is written, if we were going to take it exactly out of the book,

791
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:09,680
 we should have said, or the way that the question was written.

792
01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:12,440
 It requires blank and blank period.

793
01:30:12,440 --> 01:30:14,960
 Does that make sense?

794
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:20,600
 I know it's a technicality, but the way that we're looking at the question and asking them

795
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:27,640
 to memorize them the way that they're written, I can't imagine anybody, sorry, Mr. Davis,

796
01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:32,520
 choosing that action courage and termination aren't correct, but I do see what he's saying

797
01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:37,760
 that there's one blank, and so if we're going to go with one blank, then the one on page

798
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:46,440
 17 would have been a more acceptable answer, since that's one word.

799
01:30:46,440 --> 01:30:50,080
 Just for clarification, Mr. Punches is the one who said one blank.

800
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:51,080
 Yeah, that's fine.

801
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:55,000
 I'm taking into consideration, because just because he's not here doesn't mean we can't

802
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:56,000
 take his.

803
01:30:56,000 --> 01:31:03,080
 Right, but that one, that blank doesn't, and when you look at the answers, the rest of

804
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:09,360
 the question is action courage determination.

805
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:12,360
 Vision isn't listed.

806
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:19,920
 So that there's a blank, if you put and, then that, technically, that makes the question,

807
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:25,760
 that makes a question different, because then C would not be a correct answer, because the

808
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:32,280
 and, and that's why they just left it as the blanks, with then the choice of being one,

809
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:38,200
 two, and three, one and two, one, or none of the above, and vision isn't listed at all.

810
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:42,040
 But that, well, not on that page, but that's not saying that look at that page, it's saying

811
01:31:42,040 --> 01:31:45,080
 look up, let the book step up and leave the entire book.

812
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:50,440
 So page 17 is in that book, and if the department's justification says that the direct quote,

813
01:31:50,440 --> 01:31:54,600
 it's a direct quote from the book, the direct quote from the book says leadership requires

814
01:31:54,600 --> 01:32:01,760
 courage and determination, so then they can't use that justification, because the exact

815
01:32:01,760 --> 01:32:09,580
 line has both of those.

816
01:32:09,580 --> 01:32:14,920
 But you could put, the point is in the question, in the stem of the question, the blank allows

817
01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:18,600
 you to put any of those three words in there.

818
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:27,200
 Not if they're going to use this justification, it's a direct quote from the book.

819
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:36,000
 Well, I don't know, I don't think it means direct, my own, it doesn't mean that it's

820
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:44,680
 the direct quote in, I mean, it is verbatim in the sense that it, the sentences say leadership

821
01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:51,240
 requires courage, determination, also requires action.

822
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:52,240
 That's a direct quote.

823
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:57,280
 So that's the quote on page 17, leadership requires vision.

824
01:32:57,280 --> 01:33:01,520
 Yes, but vision isn't one of the answers.

825
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:06,880
 So the other three are correct, so the only correct answer on it, it's a question that

826
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:18,200
 probably needs to be looked at, but vision doesn't enter into it, period.

827
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:22,480
 Vision is not an answer that's an option, so we have to look at those three.

828
01:33:22,480 --> 01:33:29,840
 It is an answer that's an option because there's an option given that says none of the above.

829
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:31,880
 But the others are there.

830
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:32,880
 The others are there.

831
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:39,920
 I'm going to have to argue or disagree on this one, I don't think that's a good question.

832
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:46,400
 On one end we're saying we want answers directly verbatim from the book, and now on the other

833
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:49,960
 side we're saying, oh, we can pick and choose from two different sentences what we want

834
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:52,560
 to justify the department's answer.

835
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:58,600
 You can't take something verbatim, and you've done tests like I have, you can't take something

836
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:03,740
 verbatim and make it a question if it's a declarative statement.

837
01:34:03,740 --> 01:34:05,560
 You have to turn that around.

838
01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:09,080
 The content of it is all right there in the book.

839
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:18,360
 All the three main words, four main words, but the fourth one is not in the game.

840
01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:25,900
 It's not a pitch that the pitcher knows how to throw, so it's not in there at all.

841
01:34:25,900 --> 01:34:36,280
 But you can't take a declarative statement, but it's not listed in their three options.

842
01:34:36,280 --> 01:34:43,180
 But those three are listed as requirements of leadership.

843
01:34:43,180 --> 01:34:45,000
 If you look at the book, that's what it says.

844
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:46,000
 Yeah, I've seen the book.

845
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:50,960
 I've seen page two and page 17, and that's my problem with it is that it's not saying

846
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:55,000
 look at the first page of the book, it's saying look at the step up and lead, look at the

847
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:57,800
 entire book.

848
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:02,080
 I'd like to hear if there's any other officers that are speaking against the APL.

849
01:35:02,080 --> 01:35:07,640
 I'd like to hear what their thoughts are.

850
01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:11,920
 Okay, Cassie?

851
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:15,400
 Yes, sir.

852
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:23,480
 My argument would be that the question isn't limiting that vision can't be a requirement.

853
01:35:23,480 --> 01:35:27,880
 It's just stating that action, courage, and determination are requirements of it, which

854
01:35:27,880 --> 01:35:30,760
 is what A states.

855
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:37,520
 The reason that B, C, and D can't be correct is because it's saying that only action and

856
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:43,360
 courage, or only action, or that none of those are fulfilling the requirements of leadership

857
01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:45,080
 when they are stated in the book.

858
01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:51,240
 And like you were saying, ma'am, we're looking at the entire book, and those are in the book,

859
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:53,680
 and it's not stating that vision can't be.

860
01:35:53,680 --> 01:35:58,160
 It's just stating that those three are requirements of it.

861
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:03,800
 Page 17 reads leadership requires vision.

862
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:08,040
 Chair Ramsey, I have a question.

863
01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:10,880
 I have a question, please.

864
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:21,080
 I'm inclined to agree with the other commissioner in that I believe that A and D would be correct

865
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:23,400
 answers.

866
01:36:23,400 --> 01:36:32,480
 And the reason for that is you can say D if you're referencing page 17, but if you're

867
01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:37,680
 referencing page two, then you would have one, two, and three.

868
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:42,680
 So how do we handle that?

869
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:47,540
 And I would think the other commissioner is probably going to side with me on this one,

870
01:36:47,540 --> 01:36:48,540
 that I'm positive.

871
01:36:48,540 --> 01:37:02,320
 I'm not putting words in your mouth, commissioner, possibly everyone that got it correct would

872
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:13,240
 say as is, but also give some opportunity to the other direct quote that says leadership

873
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:14,920
 requires vision.

874
01:37:14,920 --> 01:37:23,040
 If we look at this as always choosing the best answer, and that's the test taking principle

875
01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:30,400
 that we have to, that everybody has to learn, we took the best answer of those four answers,

876
01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:33,400
 which is the best answer.

877
01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:38,920
 It depends what page you're referencing.

878
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:39,920
 No.

879
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:46,360
 I'm asking for those four questions, of that question, those four answers.

880
01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:50,600
 Okay, but think back the way that some of these other questions have been, we're not

881
01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:54,200
 asking them to think, we're asking them to quote the book.

882
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:56,760
 And that is a direct quote in the book, Lillian.

883
01:37:56,760 --> 01:37:59,240
 Yes, on page 17 as well.

884
01:37:59,240 --> 01:38:03,160
 So I would say, I would recommend that we would either, you can either throw the entire

885
01:38:03,160 --> 01:38:10,080
 question out or you could accept Andy.

886
01:38:10,080 --> 01:38:11,080
 Okay.

887
01:38:11,080 --> 01:38:14,640
 Rhett, I think he was there longer, I think.

888
01:38:14,640 --> 01:38:15,640
 I'm not sure.

889
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:16,640
 Cole, you're coming.

890
01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:18,440
 I'm coming to you.

891
01:38:18,440 --> 01:38:19,440
 Hello.

892
01:38:19,440 --> 01:38:20,440
 Can everybody hear me?

893
01:38:20,440 --> 01:38:21,440
 Yes, sir.

894
01:38:21,440 --> 01:38:22,440
 We can.

895
01:38:22,440 --> 01:38:23,440
 Okay.

896
01:38:23,440 --> 01:38:28,880
 I think everybody's trying to find balance, that critical point where we're trying to

897
01:38:28,880 --> 01:38:35,360
 determine if we're going to memorize or have some sort of concept of deductive reasoning.

898
01:38:35,360 --> 01:38:39,920
 And I feel like everybody is saying something that's right.

899
01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:41,800
 This is not a word for word sentence.

900
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:47,960
 Now, the stem of the question could lead the testee to make a deductive reasoning question

901
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:50,320
 or answer to this.

902
01:38:50,320 --> 01:38:54,280
 So moving forward, I'd just like to point out that number one, this is not a word for

903
01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:57,160
 word question.

904
01:38:57,160 --> 01:39:05,280
 And then number two, it'll, it makes and allows the testee to make a deductive reasoning answer

905
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:09,360
 choice based off the concept of the material.

906
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:13,360
 I have nothing to say.

907
01:39:13,360 --> 01:39:14,360
 Okay.

908
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:15,360
 Cole.

909
01:39:15,360 --> 01:39:16,360
 Yes, sir.

910
01:39:16,360 --> 01:39:17,360
 Can you hear me?

911
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:18,360
 Yes, sir.

912
01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:19,360
 Okay.

913
01:39:19,360 --> 01:39:23,600
 I would like to say that Commissioner Lillian, I completely see what you're saying.

914
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:27,400
 The only thing that I would like to add to that is for you to look at question D, and

915
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:29,660
 it would say none of the above.

916
01:39:29,660 --> 01:39:34,160
 So if we are following, say we're looking at the whole book, like you stated, because

917
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:40,560
 I do agree, it's not directly from page two, could be also page 17.

918
01:39:40,560 --> 01:39:45,000
 But if D is also accepted as a possible correct answer, then we are going against the book

919
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:51,680
 saying that action, courage and determination are not required for leaders or for leadership,

920
01:39:51,680 --> 01:39:55,280
 excuse me, but they are also in the book required.

921
01:39:55,280 --> 01:39:58,200
 So that's why I don't feel D would also be an acceptable answer.

922
01:39:58,200 --> 01:40:00,000
 I do see what you're saying, though.

923
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:04,720
 I do feel like vision, if it was listed, would definitely be a potential answer.

924
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:11,720
 But I think saying D would say that those three are not in the book, which they are.

925
01:40:11,720 --> 01:40:13,600
 Shane.

926
01:40:13,600 --> 01:40:18,120
 Hey there.

927
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:22,400
 Just to add to kind of what Cole was saying, if you read the question, at the beginning

928
01:40:22,400 --> 01:40:27,080
 of the question, it says according to the author of Step Up and Lead.

929
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:29,480
 It's not saying according to a certain page.

930
01:40:29,480 --> 01:40:35,600
 You could take any part of that book, anywhere where he says leadership requires anything,

931
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:37,080
 and plug it in there.

932
01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:42,080
 Those three are in there of what is required for leadership when you say according to the

933
01:40:42,080 --> 01:40:45,680
 author, not according to a certain page or a certain paragraph.

934
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:52,320
 It just says the author uses these three in the book as a determination of what is required

935
01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:53,760
 for leadership.

936
01:40:53,760 --> 01:41:04,040
 So it's not just those three, but those three are in there.

937
01:41:04,040 --> 01:41:07,040
 Thank you.

938
01:41:07,040 --> 01:41:22,600
 I agree with both of you, Cole and Shaye, then my only concern with that is that the

939
01:41:22,600 --> 01:41:25,840
 reasoning of the department has to be changed then, because they're saying that it's a direct

940
01:41:25,840 --> 01:41:26,840
 quote from the book.

941
01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:32,040
 So if we are going to change that, then we can either choose to sustain the key once

942
01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:39,520
 the reasoning has been updated, or we throw that question out.

943
01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:45,240
 I think this underscores the need for the commissioners or the department or whoever

944
01:41:45,240 --> 01:41:53,680
 is going to be doing this henceforth to have that conversation and come to a revised position

945
01:41:53,680 --> 01:42:03,200
 on how we're going to move forward on this, but for today, you know, I'm having a little

946
01:42:03,200 --> 01:42:11,040
 difficulty with this one, but I think I'm going to have to, just for the sake of moving

947
01:42:11,040 --> 01:42:17,800
 forward, probably sustain the key, would be my recommendation.

948
01:42:17,800 --> 01:42:20,800
 That is a motion?

949
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:23,800
 Reluctantly.

950
01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:30,160
 I'll second it.

951
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:32,440
 Now we can get into discussion.

952
01:42:32,440 --> 01:42:38,200
 I mean, it really doesn't, it's not asking for any deductive reasoning.

953
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:42,520
 They're all, they're four things listed.

954
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:49,520
 Leadership requires courage, determination, action, and vision.

955
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:52,880
 There's no deductivity at all in that.

956
01:42:52,880 --> 01:43:01,480
 There's four things, but only three listed, and of those three, they're all listed.

957
01:43:01,480 --> 01:43:14,300
 Therefore, the only answer is A. If none of the others were listed, you know, if they

958
01:43:14,300 --> 01:43:22,080
 put four other, three other answers up there that none of which were of those four words,

959
01:43:22,080 --> 01:43:26,920
 then the answer would be D, none of the above.

960
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:29,540
 They're all there.

961
01:43:29,540 --> 01:43:38,280
 So if those three are there, the only answer is A. There's no deductivity about it at all.

962
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:40,500
 They're all there.

963
01:43:40,500 --> 01:43:44,760
 It's not like saying if a ladder, if you're trying to rescue somebody, does the ladder

964
01:43:44,760 --> 01:43:51,120
 go three feet, three and a half feet, three and three quarter feet above the, above the

965
01:43:51,120 --> 01:43:52,120
 sill?

966
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:56,480
 I mean, that's a, that would be a question that perhaps, you know, if I'm in that window,

967
01:43:56,480 --> 01:44:01,520
 I'm not worried about whether it's three and a half feet or three and three quarter feet.

968
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:03,700
 Just get me out of the burning building.

969
01:44:03,700 --> 01:44:10,280
 That would be something that would require some deductive reasoning and is, I mean, nobody's

970
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:12,300
 going to get out and measure that.

971
01:44:12,300 --> 01:44:14,320
 These are all right there.

972
01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:16,640
 They're in the book, according to the author.

973
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:23,560
 Chair Ramsey, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on your deductive reasoning or your

974
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:24,560
 position.

975
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:26,320
 This is a declarative statement.

976
01:44:26,320 --> 01:44:31,520
 So not only do you have a declarative statement on page two, but it's also on page 17.

977
01:44:31,520 --> 01:44:33,520
 So you're correct.

978
01:44:33,520 --> 01:44:38,480
 There's no deductive reasoning required, but they're asking a declarative statement.

979
01:44:38,480 --> 01:44:47,240
 And so it declares on page two and declares on page 17 that what leadership requires.

980
01:44:47,240 --> 01:44:53,320
 And for that reason, I struggle, but I realized just for the sake of the day, I'm probably

981
01:44:53,320 --> 01:45:02,760
 going to have to just, you know, maintain the key because that number, that number D

982
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:09,640
 would be correct if we would consider, you know, another page, but we're not considering

983
01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:10,760
 another page today.

984
01:45:10,760 --> 01:45:18,280
 So I'm just going to, I'm going to stay with that for right now, Lillian, I'm sorry.

985
01:45:18,280 --> 01:45:19,940
 Okay.

986
01:45:19,940 --> 01:45:24,480
 Motion is on the floor is to sustain the key.

987
01:45:24,480 --> 01:45:26,680
 Cassie.

988
01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:31,320
 Do you have something, Cassie?

989
01:45:31,320 --> 01:45:32,880
 Sorry, sorry.

990
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:33,880
 Okay.

991
01:45:33,880 --> 01:45:34,880
 It's all right.

992
01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:35,880
 I saw another.

993
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:36,880
 Wade.

994
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:37,880
 Was it you?

995
01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:39,680
 Did you have something?

996
01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:42,520
 I didn't have anything.

997
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:43,520
 Okay.

998
01:45:43,520 --> 01:45:44,520
 I thought I saw your wave.

999
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:45,520
 All right.

1000
01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:47,840
 Motion is to sustain the key.

1001
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:49,960
 All in favor say aye.

1002
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:50,960
 Aye.

1003
01:45:50,960 --> 01:45:51,960
 Opposed?

1004
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:52,960
 Aye.

1005
01:45:52,960 --> 01:46:01,520
 Motion carries.

1006
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:03,360
 Colin did you get the message?

1007
01:46:03,360 --> 01:46:06,000
 I mean, Chief Skipper.

1008
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:11,920
 All right.

1009
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:15,080
 He's been around too long.

1010
01:46:15,080 --> 01:46:20,760
 Next is question 42.

1011
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:33,680
 And there are two appellants for that one, Mr. Owen and Mr. Young.

1012
01:46:33,680 --> 01:46:38,560
 Okay.

1013
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:55,520
 Mr. Young, you're the, you're the leader here.

1014
01:46:55,520 --> 01:46:56,520
 Where did he go?

1015
01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:59,400
 Can you hear me, sir?

1016
01:46:59,400 --> 01:47:01,800
 Yes, sir.

1017
01:47:01,800 --> 01:47:05,680
 We lost you there for a second.

1018
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:10,840
 First of all, I wanted to kind of state my opinion book in general, because I think judging

1019
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:14,860
 from the last question, and there's going to be some follow up questions that are appealing.

1020
01:47:14,860 --> 01:47:20,140
 This is a book that's talking about leadership that is written by an author.

1021
01:47:20,140 --> 01:47:22,800
 It's not scientific like we've been talking about.

1022
01:47:22,800 --> 01:47:24,880
 So it's based on his opinion as a leader.

1023
01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:28,080
 You could read a hundred books about leadership and they're going to have different things

1024
01:47:28,080 --> 01:47:29,080
 in that.

1025
01:47:29,080 --> 01:47:33,280
 So I think that that leaves it open for a lot of debate on these questions.

1026
01:47:33,280 --> 01:47:38,760
 And specifically on the question that we're talking about, the first point that I made

1027
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:42,480
 is that the question states one of the best tools.

1028
01:47:42,480 --> 01:47:46,480
 When you say one of the best tools, I could tell you one of the best tools for cutting

1029
01:47:46,480 --> 01:47:47,880
 a roof is a chainsaw.

1030
01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:52,920
 I could also tell you one of the best tools for cutting the roof is also an axe.

1031
01:47:52,920 --> 01:47:57,200
 So it implies that there could be multiple bests.

1032
01:47:57,200 --> 01:48:04,640
 My second point is the book as a whole is about leadership, i.e. motivating people.

1033
01:48:04,640 --> 01:48:08,600
 That's what leadership really is, is motivating people to follow.

1034
01:48:08,600 --> 01:48:13,600
 So if you're making a statement that this is the only best tool, well then the whole

1035
01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:17,400
 book should have been written about that one specific thing, and it's not.

1036
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:19,600
 It's written about multiple things.

1037
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:25,000
 Then my third point was, if you look at the book and you read it as a whole, now I know

1038
01:48:25,000 --> 01:48:30,640
 that the department is going to say it's a direct quote, and there is a sentence in there

1039
01:48:30,640 --> 01:48:33,520
 that does say what the question says.

1040
01:48:33,520 --> 01:48:41,080
 But we are trying to memorize, but like one of the commissioners said before, you're memorizing

1041
01:48:41,080 --> 01:48:42,080
 a whole book.

1042
01:48:42,080 --> 01:48:44,400
 You're memorizing multiple books.

1043
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:49,600
 You can't expect a person to memorize the exact thing that it says on one page and then

1044
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:56,660
 on multiple other pages, which I have listed in my appeal, page 101, page 134 through 136,

1045
01:48:56,660 --> 01:49:05,160
 page 151, page 225, page 252, page 129, all those pages talks about a reward system as

1046
01:49:05,160 --> 01:49:08,960
 being a way to motivate people and to lead them.

1047
01:49:08,960 --> 01:49:17,200
 So to just single out enthusiasm as the one basic thing that motivates people, I think

1048
01:49:17,200 --> 01:49:23,040
 that that whole question obviously could have multiple answers, and in general, it leads

1049
01:49:23,040 --> 01:49:25,120
 it up to interpretation.

1050
01:49:25,120 --> 01:49:31,600
 So that's kind of my argument.

1051
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:41,120
 The other appeal also talks about answer A as being correct, again, talking about rewards.

1052
01:49:41,120 --> 01:49:46,080
 They weren't quite as specific as you, Mr. Young, in listing the pages, but it's basically

1053
01:49:46,080 --> 01:49:48,280
 the same argument.

1054
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:57,120
 Any questions of the appellants?

1055
01:49:57,120 --> 01:49:59,720
 Thank you for your thoroughness and your presentation.

1056
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:01,920
 Yes, sir.

1057
01:50:01,920 --> 01:50:09,640
 Lillian, do you have any questions?

1058
01:50:09,640 --> 01:50:23,000
 This is the same thing as before, but I do appreciate the explanation.

1059
01:50:23,000 --> 01:50:30,120
 Okay, fire response.

1060
01:50:30,120 --> 01:50:31,120
 Sustain the key.

1061
01:50:31,120 --> 01:50:32,120
 Direct quote from the book.

1062
01:50:32,120 --> 01:50:36,080
 According to the book, reward systems show appreciation, enthusiasm motivates others.

1063
01:50:36,080 --> 01:50:41,040
 It does not state that appreciation equals motivates, nor does it state reward system

1064
01:50:41,040 --> 01:50:47,240
 leads to motivation.

1065
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:57,200
 Questions of fire?

1066
01:50:57,200 --> 01:51:05,080
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

1067
01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:14,480
 I would entertain a motion.

1068
01:51:14,480 --> 01:51:21,960
 Is there anywhere that, because I understand what Fire is saying, that appreciation does

1069
01:51:21,960 --> 01:51:22,960
 not equal motivates.

1070
01:51:22,960 --> 01:51:29,520
 Is there anywhere that it does make those two synonymous?

1071
01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:36,160
 I'm asking the appellants.

1072
01:51:36,160 --> 01:51:39,720
 I was looking at page 101, and it just talks about rewards and recognitions are vitally

1073
01:51:39,720 --> 01:51:45,320
 important when it comes to expressing appreciation, but it doesn't say that appreciation is synonymous

1074
01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:49,280
 with motivation.

1075
01:51:49,280 --> 01:52:03,200
 Chairman Ramsey, if you give me a few minutes, I'm actually going through the book now, looking

1076
01:52:03,200 --> 01:52:04,840
 at these other references.

1077
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:08,760
 So please give me just a moment.

1078
01:52:08,760 --> 01:52:23,120
 Thank you.

1079
01:52:38,760 --> 01:52:41,660
 ten minutes, Mr. Young, can you help us?

1080
01:52:41,660 --> 01:52:43,960
 I know you don't have the book in front of you.

1081
01:52:43,960 --> 01:52:46,480
 I assume you don't have the book in front of you.

1082
01:52:46,480 --> 01:52:47,480
 No, sir.

1083
01:52:47,480 --> 01:52:50,020
 I actually do have the book in front of me.

1084
01:52:50,020 --> 01:52:51,020
 Can you?

1085
01:52:51,020 --> 01:53:01,740
 I think Commissioner Prado makes a very good question about is there a linkage between reward

1086
01:53:01,740 --> 01:53:06,100
 and motivation?

1087
01:53:06,100 --> 01:53:09,000
 On the spot, I cannot present anything.

1088
01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:14,060
 You have to realize that I appealed this question, you know, a couple of months ago, I don't

1089
01:53:14,060 --> 01:53:19,400
 have information of what they the fire service comes back at us with.

1090
01:53:19,400 --> 01:53:23,440
 And now we're put on the spot to try to read through a whole book and find their link that

1091
01:53:23,440 --> 01:53:24,980
 they provide for us.

1092
01:53:24,980 --> 01:53:27,340
 And so right here on the spot, I did not have that.

1093
01:53:27,340 --> 01:53:34,020
 I mean, if you gave me a month, I could probably come up with, you know what I mean?

1094
01:53:34,020 --> 01:53:39,900
 But you know, my argument would be is what motivates you may be different than what motivates

1095
01:53:39,900 --> 01:53:43,700
 me, which may be different than motivate somebody else.

1096
01:53:43,700 --> 01:53:45,980
 Appreciation for you may motivate you.

1097
01:53:45,980 --> 01:53:47,940
 Appreciation for somebody else may not motivate them.

1098
01:53:47,940 --> 01:53:51,340
 If they feel appreciated, they may that may motivate them.

1099
01:53:51,340 --> 01:53:58,580
 So to say that appreciation doesn't motivate people, again, is an opinion.

1100
01:53:58,580 --> 01:54:03,220
 And I know we're going just off of this book, but he emphasizes a lot of things in this

1101
01:54:03,220 --> 01:54:05,600
 book to lead people.

1102
01:54:05,600 --> 01:54:17,260
 And I would argue that motivating people and leading people is almost one in the same.

1103
01:54:17,260 --> 01:54:19,460
 Thank you.

1104
01:54:19,460 --> 01:54:20,460
 I'm almost done.

1105
01:54:20,460 --> 01:54:25,280
 Commissioner Chairman, I'm looking at I'm in the 200s now.

1106
01:54:25,280 --> 01:54:42,340
 Thank you.

1107
01:54:42,340 --> 01:55:12,140
 I'm

1108
01:55:12,140 --> 01:55:14,140
 finished.

1109
01:55:14,140 --> 01:55:22,740
 Thank you for your patience.

1110
01:55:22,740 --> 01:55:24,740
 Did you find anything?

1111
01:55:24,740 --> 01:55:33,580
 Well, I think there's a definitely a theme there of recognition and recognizing.

1112
01:55:33,580 --> 01:55:38,500
 But enthusiasm is not the only method of recognize.

1113
01:55:38,500 --> 01:55:49,140
 So I think, you know, to to to kind of underscore the gentleman's point or just a point in general.

1114
01:55:49,140 --> 01:55:53,700
 Yes, it specifically says enthusiasm is one of the best tools.

1115
01:55:53,700 --> 01:55:55,580
 It's on page 47.

1116
01:55:55,580 --> 01:56:01,660
 But as I as I speed read through some of the other areas, there are other means of recognizing

1117
01:56:01,660 --> 01:56:02,660
 as well.

1118
01:56:02,660 --> 01:56:16,440
 And so, you know, I've just got to ask myself, does it harm anything to to have a differing

1119
01:56:16,440 --> 01:56:17,440
 opinion?

1120
01:56:17,440 --> 01:56:18,440
 So that's where I am right now.

1121
01:56:18,440 --> 01:56:23,700
 And I haven't come to that conclusion, but the question doesn't say a tool to recognize

1122
01:56:23,700 --> 01:56:31,860
 the questions of the tool to motivate the I'm looking at the the department's reasoning

1123
01:56:31,860 --> 01:56:40,260
 that it does not state that appreciation equals motivation.

1124
01:56:40,260 --> 01:56:46,620
 And so that's why I was asking at any point, can can those who are those to use as synonyms

1125
01:56:46,620 --> 01:56:51,220
 in the book that we weren't able I wasn't able to find that when I was looking at all

1126
01:56:51,220 --> 01:56:58,700
 the pages that were listed on the closest that I came was to increase morale.

1127
01:56:58,700 --> 01:57:06,020
 That's the closest one that I found on my perusal through it.

1128
01:57:06,020 --> 01:57:14,700
 Part of this, I think, was and was my background, and Lillian just says yours in teaching, because

1129
01:57:14,700 --> 01:57:23,900
 we do use reward, both extrinsic and intrinsic as ways to motivate.

1130
01:57:23,900 --> 01:57:34,020
 But you're absolutely right in the sense that the book only pairs enthusiasm with motivation

1131
01:57:34,020 --> 01:57:35,640
 in those words.

1132
01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:51,220
 But I thought A and B would be would both be acceptable answers.

1133
01:57:51,220 --> 01:57:52,600
 Is that your motion?

1134
01:57:52,600 --> 01:58:00,740
 If I can make the motion, I would, I would move that we accept A and B as correct answers.

1135
01:58:00,740 --> 01:58:03,660
 Good.

1136
01:58:03,660 --> 01:58:04,660
 Is there a second?

1137
01:58:04,660 --> 01:58:06,020
 I'll second that.

1138
01:58:06,020 --> 01:58:07,020
 Any discussion?

1139
01:58:07,020 --> 01:58:19,820
 Now, I'm not opposed to that, I just think we, we are on a very fine line that on some

1140
01:58:19,820 --> 01:58:25,060
 questions, we, we agree, and we go strictly by what's in the book, and then another question

1141
01:58:25,060 --> 01:58:32,540
 we're saying, we're allowing our firefighters to think for themselves, which they ought.

1142
01:58:32,540 --> 01:58:35,980
 But I think that we as commissioners, when we're deciding on these questions, we're,

1143
01:58:35,980 --> 01:58:40,140
 we're in a very fine line that we're going back and forth, and I don't I don't really

1144
01:58:40,140 --> 01:58:51,980
 like that, but I don't oppose to accept these.

1145
01:58:51,980 --> 01:58:59,980
 The motion is to accept A and B as as answers to question 42.

1146
01:58:59,980 --> 01:59:02,820
 Yes, sir.

1147
01:59:02,820 --> 01:59:11,460
 Just because it keeps coming up from the department, the expectation is rote memorization and that

1148
01:59:11,460 --> 01:59:16,340
 the answer should be coming from the book and material and not your opinion or anyone

1149
01:59:16,340 --> 01:59:17,340
 else's opinion.

1150
01:59:17,340 --> 01:59:22,620
 It is straight from the book.

1151
01:59:22,620 --> 01:59:33,180
 Greg, go ahead if you said you had something.

1152
01:59:33,180 --> 01:59:34,180
 Yes, sir.

1153
01:59:34,180 --> 01:59:40,200
 I was just almost what battalion chief skipper just said in a rain area with Steve Young

1154
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:45,500
 said earlier, unfortunately, this book doesn't isn't based on scientific fact or, you know,

1155
01:59:45,500 --> 01:59:48,820
 anything that you could look up or research, it's essentially it's essentially just the

1156
01:59:48,820 --> 01:59:56,680
 author's opinion, several anecdotes, quotes from everybody.

1157
01:59:56,680 --> 02:00:02,100
 And if we were if we were given the liberty to just say that this word is synonymous with

1158
02:00:02,100 --> 02:00:07,180
 another word in the book, this book particular you could say that about the whole thing.

1159
02:00:07,180 --> 02:00:12,020
 I mean, because it's like I said, it's just his opinion.

1160
02:00:12,020 --> 02:00:17,900
 So I'm afraid if we start doing that, then like Commissioner Carrillo said, then we're

1161
02:00:17,900 --> 02:00:23,040
 open up a whole box of worms about, well, if a means B, then B means C. And then where

1162
02:00:23,040 --> 02:00:24,660
 do we go from there?

1163
02:00:24,660 --> 02:00:33,180
 On the other hand, the answer enthusiasm is a direct quote from the book.

1164
02:00:33,180 --> 02:00:34,180
 Thank you.

1165
02:00:34,180 --> 02:00:47,700
 All right, the motion on the floor is to accept a and B as answers to question 42.

1166
02:00:47,700 --> 02:00:50,980
 All in favor, say aye.

1167
02:00:50,980 --> 02:00:52,780
 Aye.

1168
02:00:52,780 --> 02:00:55,860
 All opposed.

1169
02:00:55,860 --> 02:01:00,000
 Nay.

1170
02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:04,580
 Motion is defeated.

1171
02:01:04,580 --> 02:01:05,900
 So I need another motion.

1172
02:01:05,900 --> 02:01:10,180
 So I make a motion that we sustain the key next time to be.

1173
02:01:10,180 --> 02:01:11,180
 Did you vote against it?

1174
02:01:11,180 --> 02:01:12,180
 Commissioner?

1175
02:01:12,180 --> 02:01:13,180
 Yes, sir.

1176
02:01:13,180 --> 02:01:14,180
 Yes, sir.

1177
02:01:14,180 --> 02:01:15,180
 Okay.

1178
02:01:15,180 --> 02:01:16,180
 All right.

1179
02:01:16,180 --> 02:01:17,180
 Okay.

1180
02:01:17,180 --> 02:01:27,220
 I'll second it just to just to get the discussion started.

1181
02:01:27,220 --> 02:01:32,060
 Any other discussion?

1182
02:01:32,060 --> 02:01:36,900
 Motion on the floor now is to sustain the key.

1183
02:01:36,900 --> 02:01:38,980
 All in favor, say aye.

1184
02:01:38,980 --> 02:01:40,220
 Aye.

1185
02:01:40,220 --> 02:01:41,620
 Opposed.

1186
02:01:41,620 --> 02:01:42,980
 Nay.

1187
02:01:42,980 --> 02:01:52,500
 And I, and I positive.

1188
02:01:52,500 --> 02:02:00,580
 So motion to sustain the key carries.

1189
02:02:00,580 --> 02:02:01,580
 Moving on.

1190
02:02:01,580 --> 02:02:02,580
 Wow.

1191
02:02:02,580 --> 02:02:08,100
 Got some must see TV there.

1192
02:02:08,100 --> 02:02:26,020
 Motion 44 that Jason, I don't think Jason is on, is he Mr. Owen?

1193
02:02:26,020 --> 02:02:30,860
 Okay.

1194
02:02:30,860 --> 02:02:36,500
 Question individuals who have had the greatest impact on the organization overall are usually

1195
02:02:36,500 --> 02:02:47,540
 those blank A who are the company officers B they get designated as barn bosses C at

1196
02:02:47,540 --> 02:02:54,940
 the top of the organization D who makes the least amount of money.

1197
02:02:54,940 --> 02:03:00,900
 The answer is C at the top of the organization.

1198
02:03:00,900 --> 02:03:12,540
 Mr. Owen's appeal says that another answer A is also correct.

1199
02:03:12,540 --> 02:03:21,500
 And his justification is the entire book talks about leadership rising from all ranks.

1200
02:03:21,500 --> 02:03:27,380
 Page, I think it's 51 talked about layered leadership.

1201
02:03:27,380 --> 02:03:37,500
 So to me, the answer A should also be correct.

1202
02:03:37,500 --> 02:03:40,780
 Brett Brett, I'm sorry.

1203
02:03:40,780 --> 02:03:42,340
 Yes, sir.

1204
02:03:42,340 --> 02:03:44,300
 I'm here.

1205
02:03:44,300 --> 02:03:46,380
 Yes, sir.

1206
02:03:46,380 --> 02:03:50,220
 I just like to expand on this.

1207
02:03:50,220 --> 02:03:56,940
 There's two sentences that I'd like to reference in the book immediately after this, this paragraph

1208
02:03:56,940 --> 02:04:01,820
 where they're referencing the answer, it says fire officers play critical roles in creating

1209
02:04:01,820 --> 02:04:03,300
 the right customer service.

1210
02:04:03,300 --> 02:04:11,300
 Now the entire chapter is about customer service and culture on 177.

1211
02:04:11,300 --> 02:04:17,480
 The author states creating a culture of customer service does not happen by accident.

1212
02:04:17,480 --> 02:04:23,300
 Buying into the concept of layered leadership, the need for leaders throughout an entire

1213
02:04:23,300 --> 02:04:27,560
 organization is especially important when it comes to customer service.

1214
02:04:27,560 --> 02:04:34,580
 So if he's referencing the layered leadership term, which he references again on page 81,

1215
02:04:34,580 --> 02:04:42,180
 he specifically says layered leadership is a fancy way of saying that 99% of all leadership

1216
02:04:42,180 --> 02:04:52,980
 occurs not from the top, from the middle of the organization.

1217
02:04:52,980 --> 02:04:56,580
 What page was that again, Brett, excuse me?

1218
02:04:56,580 --> 02:04:57,580
 Page 81.

1219
02:04:57,580 --> 02:04:58,580
 All right.

1220
02:04:58,580 --> 02:04:59,580
 Thank you.

1221
02:04:59,580 --> 02:05:25,380
 That is the second complete paragraph, first sentence.

1222
02:05:25,380 --> 02:05:30,060
 We can't have questions from the impellent because that's me and I'm not, and I just

1223
02:05:30,060 --> 02:05:31,060
 read it.

1224
02:05:31,060 --> 02:05:32,060
 Fire response.

1225
02:05:32,060 --> 02:05:38,660
 Direct quote from the book about to sustain the key.

1226
02:05:38,660 --> 02:05:47,860
 Greg, do you have something?

1227
02:05:47,860 --> 02:05:54,260
 I was just going to state as I read it, the question is not asking where leadership occurs.

1228
02:05:54,260 --> 02:06:10,720
 It's asking who has the greatest impact.

1229
02:06:10,720 --> 02:06:11,720
 Question commissioners?

1230
02:06:11,720 --> 02:06:15,940
 I have no questions at this time.

1231
02:06:15,940 --> 02:06:16,940
 Thank you.

1232
02:06:16,940 --> 02:06:17,940
 No question.

1233
02:06:17,940 --> 02:06:18,940
 Okay.

1234
02:06:18,940 --> 02:06:27,460
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

1235
02:06:27,460 --> 02:06:34,860
 The appeal says to include A as a correct answer.

1236
02:06:34,860 --> 02:06:42,420
 Commissioners, I would entertain a motion.

1237
02:06:42,420 --> 02:06:53,620
 I'll second discussion.

1238
02:06:53,620 --> 02:06:57,380
 All in favor of sustaining the key of question 44.

1239
02:06:57,380 --> 02:06:58,380
 Say I.

1240
02:06:58,380 --> 02:06:59,380
 Opposed.

1241
02:06:59,380 --> 02:07:00,380
 Okay.

1242
02:07:00,380 --> 02:07:18,860
 Next is question 47, hang on here just a second.

1243
02:07:18,860 --> 02:07:19,860
 All right.

1244
02:07:19,860 --> 02:07:24,700
 Question 47, Mr. Atweiler.

1245
02:07:24,700 --> 02:07:29,880
 I haven't seen that name.

1246
02:07:29,880 --> 02:07:30,880
 Not here.

1247
02:07:30,880 --> 02:07:41,500
 Oh, I'm sorry, there are two Mr. Davis, you're leading the charge again.

1248
02:07:41,500 --> 02:07:46,300
 I'll just agree with battalion chief skipper.

1249
02:07:46,300 --> 02:07:51,060
 Oh, let's see.

1250
02:07:51,060 --> 02:07:55,420
 This is the one that has six.

1251
02:07:55,420 --> 02:08:01,840
 All right, hang on just one second.

1252
02:08:01,840 --> 02:08:16,020
 Yeah, let me, I'll come back to all of you, anyone that hasn't spoken yet, but prior response

1253
02:08:16,020 --> 02:08:18,560
 is to accept A and B.

1254
02:08:18,560 --> 02:08:35,280
 So now Mr. Davis, Mr. Jones, there you go, Mr. Jones.

1255
02:08:35,280 --> 02:08:38,820
 Any comments?

1256
02:08:38,820 --> 02:08:40,380
 I agree with the city's take on it.

1257
02:08:40,380 --> 02:08:44,540
 I'd just like to point out that again, this is another example of not using rope memory.

1258
02:08:44,540 --> 02:08:57,620
 Yep, Mr. Punches, he's not with us, Mr. Rimmer, Rimmer, Rimmer, I think it is, right?

1259
02:08:57,620 --> 02:08:58,620
 It's Rimmer, sir.

1260
02:08:58,620 --> 02:08:59,620
 Yes, sir.

1261
02:08:59,620 --> 02:09:01,420
 I apologize if I mispronounced it.

1262
02:09:01,420 --> 02:09:02,420
 Oh, you're fine.

1263
02:09:02,420 --> 02:09:04,420
 I get it a lot.

1264
02:09:04,420 --> 02:09:10,380
 No, I'd just like to second what Johnny Jones said about that we're teetering a fine line

1265
02:09:10,380 --> 02:09:15,420
 between memorization.

1266
02:09:15,420 --> 02:09:21,700
 Yep.

1267
02:09:21,700 --> 02:09:26,740
 That's everybody, isn't it, Mr. Young?

1268
02:09:26,740 --> 02:09:28,740
 Okay.

1269
02:09:28,740 --> 02:09:34,660
 Can you hear me?

1270
02:09:34,660 --> 02:09:36,140
 Yes, sir.

1271
02:09:36,140 --> 02:09:41,300
 The department in their rebuttal has already accepted my answer that I said you should

1272
02:09:41,300 --> 02:09:44,700
 accept crisis and adversity.

1273
02:09:44,700 --> 02:09:48,460
 I would just like to point out that their argument for accepting this question is the

1274
02:09:48,460 --> 02:09:52,940
 exact opposite of the last question I just appealed, that basically I said, hey, there's

1275
02:09:52,940 --> 02:09:57,180
 two answers that work here, and now they're saying, even though it says it's a direct

1276
02:09:57,180 --> 02:10:00,260
 quote in the book, we're going to accept another answer.

1277
02:10:00,260 --> 02:10:04,400
 So in my opinion, the department is being wishy washy on what exactly they're accepting

1278
02:10:04,400 --> 02:10:08,380
 and not accepting, but then they expect us to go by the letter of the law, and by God,

1279
02:10:08,380 --> 02:10:10,140
 it has to be word for word out of the book.

1280
02:10:10,140 --> 02:10:12,220
 I just think that that's a double standard.

1281
02:10:12,220 --> 02:10:15,500
 That's my opinion.

1282
02:10:15,500 --> 02:10:17,500
 Sorry.

1283
02:10:17,500 --> 02:10:19,500
 Cole?

1284
02:10:19,500 --> 02:10:21,500
 Yes, sir.

1285
02:10:21,500 --> 02:10:28,140
 I just wanted to kind of go off of what he was saying, this question and the next question.

1286
02:10:28,140 --> 02:10:32,720
 I completely agree with what he said, the department's standard or their reasoning for

1287
02:10:32,720 --> 02:10:36,860
 the past, however many questions we've gone through already today have been direct quotes

1288
02:10:36,860 --> 02:10:37,860
 from the book.

1289
02:10:37,860 --> 02:10:42,660
 And if you turn to page 236, you can see it is word for word quote from the book, and

1290
02:10:42,660 --> 02:10:45,540
 nowhere does it say adversity.

1291
02:10:45,540 --> 02:10:50,980
 And even where they're saying that adversity is, or even where they're saying this entire

1292
02:10:50,980 --> 02:10:55,420
 section is referring to adversity, I mean, I feel like they're going against what they've

1293
02:10:55,420 --> 02:10:58,420
 been saying all day long.

1294
02:10:58,420 --> 02:11:08,380
 Brett?

1295
02:11:08,380 --> 02:11:16,620
 I think I'll sum it up for everybody on this meeting that this is collectively frustrating.

1296
02:11:16,620 --> 02:11:23,180
 I think Chief came out and said that we're held to a standard of memorize.

1297
02:11:23,180 --> 02:11:29,220
 But as Mr. Steve Young said, that it's a little bit frustrating to also be held to double

1298
02:11:29,220 --> 02:11:30,220
 standard.

1299
02:11:30,220 --> 02:11:35,540
 Now, I also agree with the motion to accept both answers, but we're also teetering a fine

1300
02:11:35,540 --> 02:11:40,540
 line because I just pointed out on the last question that there is a specific sentence

1301
02:11:40,540 --> 02:11:45,740
 that says layered leadership occurs from the middle of the organization and not from the

1302
02:11:45,740 --> 02:11:46,740
 top.

1303
02:11:46,740 --> 02:11:49,780
 So what are we being held to?

1304
02:11:49,780 --> 02:11:52,980
 May I speak?

1305
02:11:52,980 --> 02:11:53,980
 Absolutely.

1306
02:11:53,980 --> 02:11:59,700
 If I'm looking at those other two questions, question 44 and 42, which I think are the

1307
02:11:59,700 --> 02:12:05,420
 ones that everybody's referencing too, I can't justify, just on the appeals that some of

1308
02:12:05,420 --> 02:12:10,420
 you guys wrote, some people actually went and defined the terms, defined the word diversity

1309
02:12:10,420 --> 02:12:15,180
 and crisis, and found very similar definitions for them.

1310
02:12:15,180 --> 02:12:19,780
 And so I agree with that, but if I go back, I can't make that same correlation between

1311
02:12:19,780 --> 02:12:25,020
 a reward system and enthusiasm as two of the top choices that we're trying to be considered.

1312
02:12:25,020 --> 02:12:32,740
 And then the layered leadership argument coming from the middle of an organization, 99% of

1313
02:12:32,740 --> 02:12:36,980
 the leadership coming from the middle, that contradicts A, because A is saying who are

1314
02:12:36,980 --> 02:12:37,980
 the company officers.

1315
02:12:37,980 --> 02:12:42,380
 And it doesn't say company officers are in the middle or at the top or in the lower or

1316
02:12:42,380 --> 02:12:43,380
 where.

1317
02:12:43,380 --> 02:12:50,340
 So when I'm looking at these and I'm trying to understand and be objective and have you

1318
02:12:50,340 --> 02:12:55,300
 in mind and have the department in mind and what the folks are saying, that's where my

1319
02:12:55,300 --> 02:12:56,300
 votes are going from.

1320
02:12:56,300 --> 02:12:58,380
 I'm trying to consider all of it.

1321
02:12:58,380 --> 02:13:03,980
 But I agree that it is very frustrating, but these are not all, these last questions are

1322
02:13:03,980 --> 02:13:04,980
 not the same.

1323
02:13:04,980 --> 02:13:09,380
 The justification that the department uses is the same.

1324
02:13:09,380 --> 02:13:12,900
 I don't really think that that's the best justification, just like I said on the other

1325
02:13:12,900 --> 02:13:13,900
 one that I voted against.

1326
02:13:13,900 --> 02:13:18,140
 And I think the department needs the change of justification, but the questions themselves

1327
02:13:18,140 --> 02:13:20,300
 and the answer choices are not the same.

1328
02:13:20,300 --> 02:13:26,220
 Adversity and crisis, I think whoever the six appeal appellants made a very good argument.

1329
02:13:26,220 --> 02:13:29,900
 And that's why I put it at the beginning too, that whenever you're coming in, you're presenting

1330
02:13:29,900 --> 02:13:33,860
 an argument to try to appeal the question, you're trying to convince us and see something

1331
02:13:33,860 --> 02:13:37,020
 that we can't see on our own by looking just at the paper.

1332
02:13:37,020 --> 02:13:41,260
 And so I appreciate the people that are trying to put forth a little bit more effort other

1333
02:13:41,260 --> 02:13:44,740
 than just saying it's what I wrote.

1334
02:13:44,740 --> 02:13:58,620
 So for me, it's not the same as 47 is not the same as 44 and 42.

1335
02:13:58,620 --> 02:14:06,500
 I'll simply say that I'm glad that we have three of us overseeing the appeals process.

1336
02:14:06,500 --> 02:14:12,140
 And I'm glad for the opportunity to have independent thought.

1337
02:14:12,140 --> 02:14:21,540
 And I think we try very hard to take the position of each of the candidates when and where we

1338
02:14:21,540 --> 02:14:22,540
 can.

1339
02:14:22,540 --> 02:14:28,660
 And if we can't, then we don't.

1340
02:14:28,660 --> 02:14:33,580
 I was just asking if we had actually gone to fire for their response.

1341
02:14:33,580 --> 02:14:39,380
 I read it in but we need to go to them and let them officially read in their response.

1342
02:14:39,380 --> 02:14:44,140
 So we'll go to fire.

1343
02:14:44,140 --> 02:14:49,780
 Fire votes to accept A and B. The entire section is referring to adversity and the crisis quote

1344
02:14:49,780 --> 02:14:51,820
 is embedded in this section.

1345
02:14:51,820 --> 02:15:00,140
 The reader can come to the conclusion that crisis means the same thing as adversity in

1346
02:15:00,140 --> 02:15:02,940
 this section.

1347
02:15:02,940 --> 02:15:05,660
 Any other questions of fire?

1348
02:15:05,660 --> 02:15:07,780
 No questions of fire.

1349
02:15:07,780 --> 02:15:13,300
 Come in for me.

1350
02:15:13,300 --> 02:15:14,780
 I'm here.

1351
02:15:14,780 --> 02:15:15,780
 Okay.

1352
02:15:15,780 --> 02:15:16,780
 I can't find you.

1353
02:15:16,780 --> 02:15:17,780
 There you are.

1354
02:15:17,780 --> 02:15:18,780
 You're back.

1355
02:15:18,780 --> 02:15:19,780
 I'm getting coffee.

1356
02:15:19,780 --> 02:15:20,780
 You weren't on my screen.

1357
02:15:20,780 --> 02:15:21,780
 Okay.

1358
02:15:21,780 --> 02:15:22,780
 Who did you say?

1359
02:15:22,780 --> 02:15:23,780
 Cole?

1360
02:15:23,780 --> 02:15:24,780
 Yes, sir.

1361
02:15:24,780 --> 02:15:25,780
 Can you hear me?

1362
02:15:25,780 --> 02:15:26,780
 Yes, sir.

1363
02:15:26,780 --> 02:15:38,620
 Since now that fire has had their full response, I just wanted to kind of go back upon what

1364
02:15:38,620 --> 02:15:43,460
 I said also in their response or reasoning to this one, they said the reader can come

1365
02:15:43,460 --> 02:15:44,460
 to the conclusion.

1366
02:15:44,460 --> 02:15:48,740
 Well, they just said earlier, no offense to Chief Skipper, but Chief Skipper just said

1367
02:15:48,740 --> 02:15:52,100
 the department's stance is that we're here to memorize a certain thing.

1368
02:15:52,100 --> 02:15:56,860
 So all the previous questions that we've sustained has been off of the memorization, but now

1369
02:15:56,860 --> 02:16:01,380
 all of a sudden we're able to reason and figure out that there could be more than one even

1370
02:16:01,380 --> 02:16:09,180
 though it is still a direct quote from the book.

1371
02:16:09,180 --> 02:16:10,180
 Okay.

1372
02:16:10,180 --> 02:16:11,180
 Thank you.

1373
02:16:11,180 --> 02:16:12,180
 Who else?

1374
02:16:12,180 --> 02:16:13,180
 Shay?

1375
02:16:13,180 --> 02:16:19,420
 Well, again, sorry, I was just reading, I was trying to read through that section that

1376
02:16:19,420 --> 02:16:25,820
 they were referring to, it says the entire section is referring to adversity and crisis.

1377
02:16:25,820 --> 02:16:31,380
 Nowhere in here have I found where it says anything about the correlation or a relation

1378
02:16:31,380 --> 02:16:38,580
 between adversity and being a revealer of character, but word for word in the book right

1379
02:16:38,580 --> 02:16:42,180
 here, it's saying that crisis is the greatest revealer of character.

1380
02:16:42,180 --> 02:16:48,740
 I mean, if we go off of the past practices of even just today, sustaining the key would

1381
02:16:48,740 --> 02:16:54,500
 be the proper answer in this, in my opinion, just because it doesn't say anywhere else

1382
02:16:54,500 --> 02:17:01,340
 in here about looking at a revealer of character and referring to adversity, but it does do

1383
02:17:01,340 --> 02:17:05,020
 that on B, which is crisis.

1384
02:17:05,020 --> 02:17:07,660
 Okay.

1385
02:17:07,660 --> 02:17:10,660
 Thank you.

1386
02:17:10,660 --> 02:17:15,760
 I would entertain a motion.

1387
02:17:15,760 --> 02:17:22,300
 I move that we accept the department's decision to accept A and B.

1388
02:17:22,300 --> 02:17:28,220
 I'll second that.

1389
02:17:28,220 --> 02:17:29,820
 Okay.

1390
02:17:29,820 --> 02:17:39,100
 Motion is to accept A and B. And it has been seconded in discussion, commissioners.

1391
02:17:39,100 --> 02:17:46,780
 Like I said, I'm satisfied with the correlation of the definitions, both from the appellant

1392
02:17:46,780 --> 02:17:52,180
 side and also from the department, where there's more correlation between adversity and crisis

1393
02:17:52,180 --> 02:17:57,900
 than the other times that we've seen earlier in the questions and the appeals that have

1394
02:17:57,900 --> 02:17:58,900
 been brought forth.

1395
02:17:58,900 --> 02:18:03,740
 So I'm comfortable accepting both of those answers.

1396
02:18:03,740 --> 02:18:10,580
 Anything else?

1397
02:18:10,580 --> 02:18:15,220
 Can I petition for a five minute break?

1398
02:18:15,220 --> 02:18:17,020
 Can we vote on this one first?

1399
02:18:17,020 --> 02:18:19,340
 Oh, do we, do we didn't vote yet?

1400
02:18:19,340 --> 02:18:20,340
 We haven't voted yet.

1401
02:18:20,340 --> 02:18:28,860
 Motion is to accept A and B. All the favors say aye.

1402
02:18:28,860 --> 02:18:29,860
 Aye.

1403
02:18:29,860 --> 02:18:30,860
 Aye.

1404
02:18:30,860 --> 02:18:31,860
 Opposed.

1405
02:18:31,860 --> 02:18:32,860
 Okay.

1406
02:18:32,860 --> 02:18:33,860
 Yes.

1407
02:18:33,860 --> 02:18:35,500
 Can we take a five minute break, please?

1408
02:18:35,500 --> 02:18:40,220
 I promise no more than five minutes.

1409
02:18:40,220 --> 02:18:53,420
 Participants, participants, don't sign out.

1410
02:18:53,420 --> 02:18:58,420
 That's a tough part of the question of this job.

1411
02:18:58,420 --> 02:19:01,420
 Okay.

1412
02:19:01,420 --> 02:19:19,340
 Next question to be appealed was question 53.

1413
02:19:19,340 --> 02:19:35,500
 All right.

1414
02:19:35,500 --> 02:19:40,500
 Where's Craig?

1415
02:19:40,500 --> 02:19:49,100
 There he's, there he's back.

1416
02:19:49,100 --> 02:19:54,020
 And then Shay, Shay back.

1417
02:19:54,020 --> 02:19:58,220
 Yes, he's back.

1418
02:19:58,220 --> 02:20:04,380
 Cassie, she's been waiting patiently.

1419
02:20:04,380 --> 02:20:11,340
 John, and red's back.

1420
02:20:11,340 --> 02:20:12,340
 Yep.

1421
02:20:12,340 --> 02:20:15,780
 He's a trooper.

1422
02:20:15,780 --> 02:20:17,740
 All right.

1423
02:20:17,740 --> 02:20:18,740
 Next question.

1424
02:20:18,740 --> 02:20:21,340
 We have commissioners, right?

1425
02:20:21,340 --> 02:20:23,020
 Are we all back?

1426
02:20:23,020 --> 02:20:25,740
 Yeah, there we go.

1427
02:20:25,740 --> 02:20:30,580
 Next question to be appealed is question 53.

1428
02:20:30,580 --> 02:20:40,100
 There are six appellants, Shay, no, let's let Cassie, she's been, she's been very patient

1429
02:20:40,100 --> 02:20:42,140
 all day on this, this appeal.

1430
02:20:42,140 --> 02:20:45,980
 So we'll let her start and kind of lead us off.

1431
02:20:45,980 --> 02:20:49,260
 So yes, sir.

1432
02:20:49,260 --> 02:20:55,940
 The question is, a blank can be a great asset to help a leader express appreciation for

1433
02:20:55,940 --> 02:20:59,460
 an individual's efforts and contributions to the team.

1434
02:20:59,460 --> 02:21:04,020
 In my appeal, I stated that the author makes a point to stress the importance of public

1435
02:21:04,020 --> 02:21:06,380
 recognition to show appreciation.

1436
02:21:06,380 --> 02:21:14,140
 He does that on pages 129 and 134 through 35, which I state or I quote later.

1437
02:21:14,140 --> 02:21:19,180
 On page 137, he lists formal acknowledgments as a way to show appreciation.

1438
02:21:19,180 --> 02:21:26,140
 On page 134, he has examples of former recognition, formal recognition, which includes ceremonies

1439
02:21:26,140 --> 02:21:30,660
 and an award ceremony as an asset for expressing appreciation according to the statements made

1440
02:21:30,660 --> 02:21:32,700
 by the author.

1441
02:21:32,700 --> 02:21:38,140
 Shortly below that, I put all the pages and the quotes directly from the book that support

1442
02:21:38,140 --> 02:21:41,060
 that argument.

1443
02:21:41,060 --> 02:21:45,540
 Okay, thank you.

1444
02:21:45,540 --> 02:21:47,540
 Shay.

1445
02:21:47,540 --> 02:21:50,820
 Yes, sir.

1446
02:21:50,820 --> 02:21:54,180
 I believe Casey explained that very well.

1447
02:21:54,180 --> 02:21:55,180
 Not much more to add to that.

1448
02:21:55,180 --> 02:22:01,540
 I mean, it clearly states on page 135, or I'm sorry, on page 137, two ways to show appreciation

1449
02:22:01,540 --> 02:22:05,580
 formal method is one of those, so.

1450
02:22:05,580 --> 02:22:11,300
 Okay, Craig, anything to add?

1451
02:22:11,300 --> 02:22:18,860
 No, sir, I think they pretty much got it all.

1452
02:22:18,860 --> 02:22:20,140
 I don't want to mute you guys.

1453
02:22:20,140 --> 02:22:25,500
 I just want to make sure we move on.

1454
02:22:25,500 --> 02:22:26,500
 John?

1455
02:22:26,500 --> 02:22:29,140
 I appreciate Firefighter Hill, your coverage of it.

1456
02:22:29,140 --> 02:22:31,900
 I think she did a good job.

1457
02:22:31,900 --> 02:22:32,900
 Okay.

1458
02:22:32,900 --> 02:22:33,900
 Brett.

1459
02:22:33,900 --> 02:22:34,900
 Brett.

1460
02:22:34,900 --> 02:22:41,340
 Okay, I second that.

1461
02:22:41,340 --> 02:22:46,340
 This also went my favor, and moving forward, I just would like to grow on the department

1462
02:22:46,340 --> 02:22:49,940
 on this because once again, this goes into my favor.

1463
02:22:49,940 --> 02:22:55,020
 And I'm going to throw it out there that we're either memorizing directly where the page

1464
02:22:55,020 --> 02:23:03,980
 is, states, or we're citing other useful information, which is concept.

1465
02:23:03,980 --> 02:23:08,820
 Okay.

1466
02:23:08,820 --> 02:23:09,820
 Fire response.

1467
02:23:09,820 --> 02:23:18,700
 Oh, I'm sorry, commissioners, questions for the appellants?

1468
02:23:18,700 --> 02:23:19,700
 No questions.

1469
02:23:19,700 --> 02:23:25,300
 I think the number of appeals is kind of an indication.

1470
02:23:25,300 --> 02:23:35,620
 So I'm thankful for all of the varied input that everyone took the time to provide.

1471
02:23:35,620 --> 02:23:37,940
 Questions?

1472
02:23:37,940 --> 02:23:41,140
 Other questions?

1473
02:23:41,140 --> 02:23:42,140
 Fire response.

1474
02:23:42,140 --> 02:23:46,740
 Will you vote to accept A and B?

1475
02:23:46,740 --> 02:23:50,020
 Opposition and other places in the book, both are correct, while the book does not clearly

1476
02:23:50,020 --> 02:23:55,380
 state award ceremony, it does state on page 137, two ways to show appreciation is informal

1477
02:23:55,380 --> 02:23:56,860
 and formal settings.

1478
02:23:56,860 --> 02:23:59,020
 A formal setting can be an award ceremony.

1479
02:23:59,020 --> 02:24:05,500
 I'd also like to further say that the fire response will not differ from anything written

1480
02:24:05,500 --> 02:24:13,340
 that is on the response sheet other than directly answering questions to the commissioners.

1481
02:24:13,340 --> 02:24:17,500
 Okay.

1482
02:24:17,500 --> 02:24:18,940
 Questions of fire?

1483
02:24:18,940 --> 02:24:19,940
 Commissioners?

1484
02:24:19,940 --> 02:24:23,220
 I have no questions at this time.

1485
02:24:23,220 --> 02:24:24,220
 Thank you.

1486
02:24:24,220 --> 02:24:25,220
 Okay.

1487
02:24:25,220 --> 02:24:26,220
 Cole?

1488
02:24:26,220 --> 02:24:29,060
 I understand you had a question.

1489
02:24:29,060 --> 02:24:30,060
 Yes, sir.

1490
02:24:30,060 --> 02:24:34,820
 I just wanted to kind of give my rebuttal to this.

1491
02:24:34,820 --> 02:24:38,620
 Once again, we're kind of back to where we were with the previous question.

1492
02:24:38,620 --> 02:24:44,420
 If you go to page 138, which is where the question comes from, it is a direct quote.

1493
02:24:44,420 --> 02:24:50,500
 If you even look at the reasoning behind the department's response, it even admits that

1494
02:24:50,500 --> 02:24:55,300
 the fact that the book does not clearly state award ceremony.

1495
02:24:55,300 --> 02:25:04,380
 While it is back a few pages like Hillyard said earlier, it's not a direct quote.

1496
02:25:04,380 --> 02:25:08,720
 That is leading you down the road that we've been down multiple times today with other

1497
02:25:08,720 --> 02:25:10,980
 questions of connecting dots.

1498
02:25:10,980 --> 02:25:14,780
 While I don't disagree that that's correct and I'm pretty confident that that's the way

1499
02:25:14,780 --> 02:25:19,100
 this question is going to go and that it's going to be A and B, I just want to point

1500
02:25:19,100 --> 02:25:23,440
 out that we're going back to where we were earlier and that everybody was in agreeance

1501
02:25:23,440 --> 02:25:29,340
 of sustaining the key when we're allowed to connect dots and have our own thought processes

1502
02:25:29,340 --> 02:25:30,460
 to get the answers.

1503
02:25:30,460 --> 02:25:34,020
 We're kind of going back on that at this point and that's where this one's coming from.

1504
02:25:34,020 --> 02:25:38,780
 You got to connect two or three dots within this chapter to get that and I don't disagree

1505
02:25:38,780 --> 02:25:40,780
 with it, but I also don't think it's right.

1506
02:25:40,780 --> 02:25:45,980
 I think the direct quote that we've gone with all day is on page 138 and clearly states

1507
02:25:45,980 --> 02:25:52,140
 answer B is the only correct answer there.

1508
02:25:52,140 --> 02:25:57,820
 Anyone else like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

1509
02:25:57,820 --> 02:26:07,460
 Commissioners, I would entertain a motion.

1510
02:26:07,460 --> 02:26:14,740
 I make a motion that we accept the recommendation of the department to accept A and B.

1511
02:26:14,740 --> 02:26:28,820
 I will second, but I do agree with Mr. Hudson.

1512
02:26:28,820 --> 02:26:29,820
 Discussion?

1513
02:26:29,820 --> 02:26:30,820
 Do you want to move and second it?

1514
02:26:30,820 --> 02:26:31,820
 Is there any discussion?

1515
02:26:31,820 --> 02:26:36,560
 I'm not as easy on this question as the one before.

1516
02:26:36,560 --> 02:26:42,700
 Like I said, I can, and even though instead when they looked up the word adversity and

1517
02:26:42,700 --> 02:26:45,660
 crisis, they matched the definitions almost word for word.

1518
02:26:45,660 --> 02:26:53,340
 And so that to me, more of a concise, you know, use of more synonyms and can be interpreted

1519
02:26:53,340 --> 02:26:55,140
 either way.

1520
02:26:55,140 --> 02:26:56,140
 This one is not.

1521
02:26:56,140 --> 02:26:59,940
 Those are two completely different things and because it is a quote, I think that that's

1522
02:26:59,940 --> 02:27:06,780
 where we start running into problems, but I know I think we've talked about this before.

1523
02:27:06,780 --> 02:27:11,660
 You know, it's not so much the authors of the book, the makers of the test and the way

1524
02:27:11,660 --> 02:27:15,260
 that the questions are framed.

1525
02:27:15,260 --> 02:27:19,020
 I think that's what needs to be looked at.

1526
02:27:19,020 --> 02:27:23,180
 But I mean, I don't oppose sustaining what the department is accepting to say that we

1527
02:27:23,180 --> 02:27:28,660
 accept A and B, but I do caution that we need to be careful with this because we're in favor

1528
02:27:28,660 --> 02:27:36,780
 of some, but not in favor of all.

1529
02:27:36,780 --> 02:27:37,780
 Any other?

1530
02:27:37,780 --> 02:27:38,780
 Excuse me.

1531
02:27:38,780 --> 02:27:42,820
 Any discussion?

1532
02:27:42,820 --> 02:27:48,040
 All in favor of accepting A and B for question 53, say aye.

1533
02:27:48,040 --> 02:27:49,040
 Aye.

1534
02:27:49,040 --> 02:27:50,040
 Aye.

1535
02:27:50,040 --> 02:27:51,040
 Opposed?

1536
02:27:51,040 --> 02:27:52,040
 Passes.

1537
02:27:52,040 --> 02:28:10,020
 Question 54.

1538
02:28:10,020 --> 02:28:18,300
 Okay Mr. Punches appealed this question.

1539
02:28:18,300 --> 02:28:24,660
 Question successful organization depends very much on a leader's blank and the answers are

1540
02:28:24,660 --> 02:28:33,780
 years of experience, outside political connections, ability to inspire, communication styles.

1541
02:28:33,780 --> 02:28:40,820
 The answer to the question, the keyed answer to the question is ability to inspire.

1542
02:28:40,820 --> 02:28:44,060
 That's answer C.

1543
02:28:44,060 --> 02:28:52,620
 And Mr. Punches says that D is correct in addition and both should be allowed for credit.

1544
02:28:52,620 --> 02:28:59,620
 His appeal says, I believe ability to inspire is correct, but ability to communicate and

1545
02:28:59,620 --> 02:29:10,220
 the style of communication go together and each is needed to make the other effective.

1546
02:29:10,220 --> 02:29:13,980
 Fire response.

1547
02:29:13,980 --> 02:29:19,100
 To sustain the key, questions direct quote from the book, this is not a valid appeal.

1548
02:29:19,100 --> 02:29:23,140
 The appellant does not make a valid argument for communication styles since it does not

1549
02:29:23,140 --> 02:29:28,660
 attempt to show where in the text it states the communication styles of a leader is very

1550
02:29:28,660 --> 02:29:35,740
 much dependent on the organization's success.

1551
02:29:35,740 --> 02:29:38,860
 Questions of fire?

1552
02:29:38,860 --> 02:29:47,240
 I have no questions of fire.

1553
02:29:47,240 --> 02:29:57,660
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

1554
02:29:57,660 --> 02:29:59,820
 Seeing none.

1555
02:29:59,820 --> 02:30:06,620
 All in favor of accepting A, I'm sorry, sustaining the key for 54.

1556
02:30:06,620 --> 02:30:10,420
 Do we make a motion?

1557
02:30:10,420 --> 02:30:11,420
 No motion.

1558
02:30:11,420 --> 02:30:14,420
 Did I skip -- got ahead of myself.

1559
02:30:14,420 --> 02:30:17,980
 I would entertain a motion to do something.

1560
02:30:17,980 --> 02:30:18,980
 Sorry.

1561
02:30:18,980 --> 02:30:19,980
 I make a motion.

1562
02:30:19,980 --> 02:30:20,980
 Go ahead.

1563
02:30:20,980 --> 02:30:21,980
 Go ahead.

1564
02:30:21,980 --> 02:30:25,780
 I was going to say the appellant is not here, right?

1565
02:30:25,780 --> 02:30:26,780
 Correct.

1566
02:30:26,780 --> 02:30:27,780
 Okay.

1567
02:30:27,780 --> 02:30:33,140
 This would have been a good one.

1568
02:30:33,140 --> 02:30:42,580
 I make a motion that we accept -- that we maintain the key, accept the key.

1569
02:30:42,580 --> 02:30:43,580
 Sustain the key.

1570
02:30:43,580 --> 02:30:47,380
 That's the correct word.

1571
02:30:47,380 --> 02:30:50,180
 Getting late in the day.

1572
02:30:50,180 --> 02:30:52,020
 Any discussion?

1573
02:30:52,020 --> 02:30:54,480
 I do have some discussion here.

1574
02:30:54,480 --> 02:31:01,980
 When I got to this question, I really liked D. But the book said C.

1575
02:31:01,980 --> 02:31:15,340
 So and I believe that communication styles are related to ones ability to inspire.

1576
02:31:15,340 --> 02:31:19,900
 I'm just thinking of -- and I'll be very blunt.

1577
02:31:19,900 --> 02:31:28,340
 When I was in the military, some of the leaders said if you can't put together a string of

1578
02:31:28,340 --> 02:31:36,100
 good expert leaders that you can't lead, that your inspiration was associated with -- I

1579
02:31:36,100 --> 02:31:39,460
 just call it profanity.

1580
02:31:39,460 --> 02:31:44,900
 And then there came along a different group of leaders who chose not to use profanity

1581
02:31:44,900 --> 02:31:49,100
 but use a different style.

1582
02:31:49,100 --> 02:31:59,060
 And I think -- so while communication is important, I think the bottom line is the ability to

1583
02:31:59,060 --> 02:32:00,060
 inspire.

1584
02:32:00,060 --> 02:32:07,420
 And so I said all that to say that I really thought a lot about this one, and even though

1585
02:32:07,420 --> 02:32:16,820
 I would like to say communication styles are equally as important, I think the eventual

1586
02:32:16,820 --> 02:32:19,380
 thing is that you have to have the ability to inspire.

1587
02:32:19,380 --> 02:32:24,980
 But the book says the success of an organization depends very much on a leader's ability to

1588
02:32:24,980 --> 02:32:25,980
 inspire.

1589
02:32:25,980 --> 02:32:32,580
 So I had to go with sustainability.

1590
02:32:32,580 --> 02:32:33,580
 Any other discussion?

1591
02:32:33,580 --> 02:32:38,660
 I mean, I'm willing to sustain the key, but I did also like D. When I was looking at the

1592
02:32:38,660 --> 02:32:44,340
 back of the book, there's tons of pages dedicated to communication styles, one of them being

1593
02:32:44,340 --> 02:32:45,340
 assertiveness.

1594
02:32:45,340 --> 02:32:49,980
 And if you're not an assertive communicator, people likely won't follow orders, and without

1595
02:32:49,980 --> 02:32:51,660
 that, the department won't be successful.

1596
02:32:51,660 --> 02:32:56,380
 But I mean, I think that's probably one of the big things that whenever you appeal, you

1597
02:32:56,380 --> 02:33:00,140
 need to show up, you know, because this question could have really gone the other way.

1598
02:33:00,140 --> 02:33:05,420
 But for today, we'll sustain the key, if that's the case.

1599
02:33:05,420 --> 02:33:06,420
 Okay.

1600
02:33:06,420 --> 02:33:09,180
 I'll accept that as a call to question.

1601
02:33:09,180 --> 02:33:12,700
 All in favor of sustaining the key on 54, say aye.

1602
02:33:12,700 --> 02:33:13,700
 Aye.

1603
02:33:13,700 --> 02:33:14,700
 Aye.

1604
02:33:14,700 --> 02:33:15,700
 Okay.

1605
02:33:15,700 --> 02:33:16,700
 Okay.

1606
02:33:16,700 --> 02:33:17,700
 Question 70.

1607
02:33:17,700 --> 02:33:18,700
 Two repealants.

1608
02:33:18,700 --> 02:33:19,700
 Do we lose Wade?

1609
02:33:19,700 --> 02:33:20,700
 I'm here.

1610
02:33:20,700 --> 02:33:21,700
 I would draw my appeal.

1611
02:33:21,700 --> 02:33:22,700
 Okay.

1612
02:33:22,700 --> 02:33:45,700
 Brett?

1613
02:33:45,700 --> 02:34:02,900
 So, the answer is referenced on page 195, and previously when we were talking about a question

1614
02:34:02,900 --> 02:34:12,620
 from the ISO book, it wasn't a direct sentence on number two, and it was the answer was actually

1615
02:34:12,620 --> 02:34:19,820
 obtained from the titles of each, it was obtained from each subtitle from the main title, if

1616
02:34:19,820 --> 02:34:21,620
 that makes any sense.

1617
02:34:21,620 --> 02:34:30,060
 So the quality control of lumber is the title of this, meaning that anything following this

1618
02:34:30,060 --> 02:34:32,340
 is fair game for answer.

1619
02:34:32,340 --> 02:34:41,140
 So I think all of the above would qualify for the answer of this question.

1620
02:34:41,140 --> 02:34:46,340
 And in conclusion, when the engineer is picking materials to construct a building, they are

1621
02:34:46,340 --> 02:34:52,540
 not limited to just the strength and appearance of the lumber, okay?

1622
02:34:52,540 --> 02:34:57,380
 They're also held to standard of cost and durability.

1623
02:34:57,380 --> 02:35:04,380
 So that is a concept answer, and I realize that that is not word for word out of the

1624
02:35:04,380 --> 02:35:05,380
 book.

1625
02:35:05,380 --> 02:35:19,540
 So here we are again.

1626
02:35:19,540 --> 02:35:20,540
 Questions for the appellant?

1627
02:35:20,540 --> 02:35:30,140
 I don't have a question for the appellant, but that part that he quoted, it says lumber

1628
02:35:30,140 --> 02:35:34,660
 can be graded, evaluated for both structural strength and appearance, but the question

1629
02:35:34,660 --> 02:35:38,600
 here says lumber is graded, not can be graded.

1630
02:35:38,600 --> 02:35:45,900
 I'm inclined to look at all of these other answers.

1631
02:35:45,900 --> 02:35:48,100
 I'm sorry, Commissioner, you broke up on me.

1632
02:35:48,100 --> 02:35:49,100
 What did you say?

1633
02:35:49,100 --> 02:35:53,260
 That there's a difference between what the book states and how the question is stated,

1634
02:35:53,260 --> 02:35:55,500
 even though it's saying that it's a direct clip from the book.

1635
02:35:55,500 --> 02:36:01,500
 If you look at the book, at the part where the gentleman quoted under the quality control

1636
02:36:01,500 --> 02:36:07,860
 of lumber, where lumber is in red, it says lumber can be graded, evaluated for both structural

1637
02:36:07,860 --> 02:36:14,620
 strength and appearance, but this here on our question, it says lumber is graded on

1638
02:36:14,620 --> 02:36:22,820
 the basis of the second sentence after, it says lumber with a higher grade is more costly.

1639
02:36:22,820 --> 02:36:27,460
 So what I'm saying is I can be persuaded to have to accept more than one of these answers

1640
02:36:27,460 --> 02:36:31,940
 because it's not word for word and it's not the same.

1641
02:36:31,940 --> 02:36:37,020
 One is saying it can be, the other saying it is.

1642
02:36:37,020 --> 02:36:42,860
 Okay, Greg, was it Greg?

1643
02:36:42,860 --> 02:36:57,100
 Yeah, I was wondering where Rimmer cited that information about engineering choosing lumber.

1644
02:36:57,100 --> 02:37:02,540
 And another point is the question is saying what are the criteria for grading lumber,

1645
02:37:02,540 --> 02:37:06,700
 not the criteria an engineer uses for selecting lumber.

1646
02:37:06,700 --> 02:37:20,700
 Brett, do you want to respond?

1647
02:37:20,700 --> 02:37:39,580
 No response other than what I've already stated.

1648
02:37:39,580 --> 02:37:44,780
 Like I said, the answer that I'm implying is that this is a concept question.

1649
02:37:44,780 --> 02:37:51,300
 When you construct a building, I don't have the reference off the top of my head coil,

1650
02:37:51,300 --> 02:37:59,140
 but it is not limited to just appearance of lumber and the strength.

1651
02:37:59,140 --> 02:38:10,780
 I can give you a reference on the disadvantages of wood, which it says on page 182 that this

1652
02:38:10,780 --> 02:38:19,900
 would imply that knots, knotholes, decay, insects, splits and warps are disadvantaged.

1653
02:38:19,900 --> 02:38:26,960
 And then on page 183, it says that another factor affects wood strength is the load direction.

1654
02:38:26,960 --> 02:38:31,660
 Wood is stronger parallel to the grain against the grain.

1655
02:38:31,660 --> 02:38:41,540
 So I don't know how to answer your question, Cole.

1656
02:38:41,540 --> 02:38:44,900
 Okay.

1657
02:38:44,900 --> 02:38:48,100
 Other comments?

1658
02:38:48,100 --> 02:38:52,020
 Seth?

1659
02:38:52,020 --> 02:38:55,300
 I have a question, Chairman.

1660
02:38:55,300 --> 02:38:56,620
 Yes, sir.

1661
02:38:56,620 --> 02:39:04,620
 This is a question to the department.

1662
02:39:04,620 --> 02:39:09,180
 And forgive me for being very, very basic in this question, but why would you include

1663
02:39:09,180 --> 02:39:13,060
 such a question on a test like this?

1664
02:39:13,060 --> 02:39:18,760
 Battalion Chief, you haven't?

1665
02:39:18,760 --> 02:39:19,760
 I'm thinking, sir.

1666
02:39:19,760 --> 02:39:20,760
 Okay.

1667
02:39:20,760 --> 02:39:21,760
 Thank you.

1668
02:39:21,760 --> 02:39:33,100
 I'm going to fall back on this information is in the source material that the fire department

1669
02:39:33,100 --> 02:39:38,340
 decided that every firefighter should know, and it is all subject to being included on

1670
02:39:38,340 --> 02:39:44,420
 the test, up to the copyright date of the book, if we so chose.

1671
02:39:44,420 --> 02:39:50,700
 I'm sorry, my question probably was not a good one, so let me try again.

1672
02:39:50,700 --> 02:40:03,460
 When testing or having your firemen, fire women, study, why is it important to know

1673
02:40:03,460 --> 02:40:06,760
 about grading lumber?

1674
02:40:06,760 --> 02:40:08,140
 What does that do?

1675
02:40:08,140 --> 02:40:14,580
 Is that part of when you're going into a fire, or are you looking at general construction,

1676
02:40:14,580 --> 02:40:20,260
 or is this part of the inspection aspect of a fire?

1677
02:40:20,260 --> 02:40:25,380
 All aspects of the building construction book are related to the fire service.

1678
02:40:25,380 --> 02:40:29,940
 For that purpose, what you just said, if we're going to have a fire in whatever given building,

1679
02:40:29,940 --> 02:40:35,980
 we should know aspects of all different kinds of construction to include lumber, masonry,

1680
02:40:35,980 --> 02:40:36,980
 steel construction.

1681
02:40:36,980 --> 02:40:42,940
 There's five different basic levels of construction the fire service breaks it down into, but

1682
02:40:42,940 --> 02:40:48,500
 all of these are just little nuggets of information that a firefighter would use to size up a building

1683
02:40:48,500 --> 02:40:54,740
 and determine what kind of risk they're going to see as they go by the fire in that structure.

1684
02:40:54,740 --> 02:40:56,900
 Let me come back with you another question.

1685
02:40:56,900 --> 02:41:01,780
 Let's say, for example, I believe the fire department maintains records about building

1686
02:41:01,780 --> 02:41:05,900
 construction, is that correct?

1687
02:41:05,900 --> 02:41:08,900
 Some records around town?

1688
02:41:08,900 --> 02:41:14,780
 The fire department will do pre-plans, they also do inspections, so we go and inspect

1689
02:41:14,780 --> 02:41:19,420
 for fire safety, fire codes, that kind of thing, so that might be falling into what

1690
02:41:19,420 --> 02:41:21,940
 you're thinking about there, sir.

1691
02:41:21,940 --> 02:41:29,020
 So I'm thinking, and I'm just trying to get my arms around this piece of information,

1692
02:41:29,020 --> 02:41:31,980
 why it's important and what you're going to use it for.

1693
02:41:31,980 --> 02:41:37,700
 So let's say, for example, somewhere in your central record keeping, I own a building here

1694
02:41:37,700 --> 02:41:42,100
 in town, and you say, look at John Bang's building and look at the construction that

1695
02:41:42,100 --> 02:41:43,620
 it was made from.

1696
02:41:43,620 --> 02:41:49,580
 So if you had to have a call, you would do a lookup and say, this building is class one,

1697
02:41:49,580 --> 02:41:56,540
 class two, class three, class four, and you have a kind of a ready-made determination

1698
02:41:56,540 --> 02:41:59,620
 of the risk, of the risk that you're dealing with.

1699
02:41:59,620 --> 02:42:04,780
 So this is why it's important to understand the strength and the appearance, I would say.

1700
02:42:04,780 --> 02:42:05,780
 Is that right?

1701
02:42:05,780 --> 02:42:06,780
 Is that a fair statement?

1702
02:42:06,780 --> 02:42:09,060
 I would say to factor into it, yes, sir.

1703
02:42:09,060 --> 02:42:10,060
 Okay.

1704
02:42:10,060 --> 02:42:15,340
 So let me kind of take the long way to get to that answer.

1705
02:42:15,340 --> 02:42:18,700
 No problem.

1706
02:42:18,700 --> 02:42:22,620
 Any other questions of the appellant?

1707
02:42:22,620 --> 02:42:26,300
 All right.

1708
02:42:26,300 --> 02:42:30,780
 We'll go to fire for their response.

1709
02:42:30,780 --> 02:42:33,820
 To sustain the key, the question is a direct quote from the book.

1710
02:42:33,820 --> 02:42:36,980
 The book clearly states that lumber is graded based on strength and appearance.

1711
02:42:36,980 --> 02:42:40,580
 The appeal is trying to attempt to speak to lumber, and wood panel products are the same

1712
02:42:40,580 --> 02:42:42,180
 thing, which is false.

1713
02:42:42,180 --> 02:42:47,460
 On page 187, under the panel section, it clearly states that wood panel products differ greatly

1714
02:42:47,460 --> 02:42:56,660
 from solid dimensional lumber.

1715
02:42:56,660 --> 02:43:04,140
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

1716
02:43:04,140 --> 02:43:09,380
 Yes, sir.

1717
02:43:09,380 --> 02:43:10,820
 I had my hand raised earlier.

1718
02:43:10,820 --> 02:43:18,860
 I was just going to point out the paragraph right after where it says lumber, let's see,

1719
02:43:18,860 --> 02:43:22,660
 lumber can be graded for both structural strength and appearance.

1720
02:43:22,660 --> 02:43:28,540
 The next paragraph in the first sentence also says wood panel products are also graded for

1721
02:43:28,540 --> 02:43:35,500
 their structural use and their exposure durability, which would make me think that B and C would

1722
02:43:35,500 --> 02:43:39,220
 be correct.

1723
02:43:39,220 --> 02:43:42,300
 Okay.

1724
02:43:42,300 --> 02:43:45,500
 Cole.

1725
02:43:45,500 --> 02:43:51,060
 Yes, sir.

1726
02:43:51,060 --> 02:43:55,020
 I kind of wanted to address what Commissioner Lillian had asked about earlier, where it

1727
02:43:55,020 --> 02:43:57,300
 said they can be.

1728
02:43:57,300 --> 02:44:03,180
 If you look on page 195 at the top right is the actual definition for lumber, and at the

1729
02:44:03,180 --> 02:44:11,440
 end of the definition after a semicolon, it says items are graded for strength and appearance.

1730
02:44:11,440 --> 02:44:15,940
 Between the two of those, between in the text and in the definition, in my opinion, the

1731
02:44:15,940 --> 02:44:22,220
 definition is more of something that would be able to hold up than in the text, because

1732
02:44:22,220 --> 02:44:26,500
 as we've seen for everybody that's read these books, there's lots of typos, I mean, it's

1733
02:44:26,500 --> 02:44:34,340
 humans that are writing those instead of necessarily copying and pasting the definitions.

1734
02:44:34,340 --> 02:44:40,460
 I do, I had a question, so after looking at that and then saying it's graded, which basically

1735
02:44:40,460 --> 02:44:45,740
 means it's evaluated, so lumber is evaluated on the base of strength and appearance is

1736
02:44:45,740 --> 02:44:49,140
 what the book says, right?

1737
02:44:49,140 --> 02:44:50,140
 Okay.

1738
02:44:50,140 --> 02:44:51,140
 Yes.

1739
02:44:51,140 --> 02:44:56,160
 So the results of that evaluation would be the cost, how much cost, how much that piece

1740
02:44:56,160 --> 02:44:58,380
 of lumber would cost, right?

1741
02:44:58,380 --> 02:45:02,300
 Am I on the right track thinking?

1742
02:45:02,300 --> 02:45:07,440
 So Lillian, who are you addressing?

1743
02:45:07,440 --> 02:45:14,420
 I'm just talking, because I'm trying to rule out, because one of the appeals is that we

1744
02:45:14,420 --> 02:45:19,500
 would accept all the answers, and one of them is that we would accept C, so I'm inclined

1745
02:45:19,500 --> 02:45:25,460
 to accept C. I'm trying to understand why I wouldn't say that all of the answers should

1746
02:45:25,460 --> 02:45:27,420
 be accepted.

1747
02:45:27,420 --> 02:45:38,060
 So A and D are talking about cost, but cost comes after the evaluation.

1748
02:45:38,060 --> 02:45:43,020
 So it's not that they're being evaluated on how much the cost, the cost is after, so lumber

1749
02:45:43,020 --> 02:45:48,180
 is evaluated on the basis of strength and appearance, strength and durability, which

1750
02:45:48,180 --> 02:45:53,820
 to me without appearance, which we can make a case for, that I'm more inclined to accepting

1751
02:45:53,820 --> 02:45:57,340
 B and C than I would to accept all the answers.

1752
02:45:57,340 --> 02:46:01,580
 Lillian, we're just talking, right?

1753
02:46:01,580 --> 02:46:03,140
 Okay.

1754
02:46:03,140 --> 02:46:11,620
 So and that kind of gets back to why I was asking the question about evaluations, but

1755
02:46:11,620 --> 02:46:16,580
 I don't think the fire department worries about cost as much as they worry about strength

1756
02:46:16,580 --> 02:46:24,620
 and durability when you're looking at potential fire hazards, or how quickly a fire would

1757
02:46:24,620 --> 02:46:25,620
 spread.

1758
02:46:25,620 --> 02:46:27,980
 No, I'm a novice.

1759
02:46:27,980 --> 02:46:36,660
 I'm not a person that does a lot of construction, but I've always heard that handling was not

1760
02:46:36,660 --> 02:46:40,900
 as durable necessarily as your lumber.

1761
02:46:40,900 --> 02:46:46,820
 Let me jump in for just a second.

1762
02:46:46,820 --> 02:46:52,940
 John hold that thought, let's do the procedure and then we can get to our discussion.

1763
02:46:52,940 --> 02:46:56,740
 You're kind of ahead of me in that, so let's hold your thought though.

1764
02:46:56,740 --> 02:46:57,740
 All right.

1765
02:46:57,740 --> 02:47:06,660
 Is there anyone like to speak against the appeal?

1766
02:47:06,660 --> 02:47:14,580
 I would entertain a motion on question 70.

1767
02:47:14,580 --> 02:47:15,580
 You're muted.

1768
02:47:15,580 --> 02:47:24,900
 I make a motion that we accept B and C as answers.

1769
02:47:24,900 --> 02:47:26,700
 I'll second that motion.

1770
02:47:26,700 --> 02:47:27,700
 All right.

1771
02:47:27,700 --> 02:47:29,060
 Now we can have the discussion.

1772
02:47:29,060 --> 02:47:39,700
 Now we're back in track.

1773
02:47:39,700 --> 02:47:42,980
 If I were a firefighter, I'd want to know about the strength for sure.

1774
02:47:42,980 --> 02:47:48,100
 I guess I'm not as concerned about the appearance.

1775
02:47:48,100 --> 02:47:53,260
 Probably I am a little bit about the durability, but I certainly want to know about the strength

1776
02:47:53,260 --> 02:47:59,660
 before I walk into a building in that same paragraph, it makes reference why they would

1777
02:47:59,660 --> 02:48:00,660
 want to know.

1778
02:48:00,660 --> 02:48:05,780
 I would think it says in a given structure, only a few critical columns or beams may require

1779
02:48:05,780 --> 02:48:06,780
 high structural grade.

1780
02:48:06,780 --> 02:48:11,020
 If I'm going into a building that I think is going to fall down, I'm looking at those

1781
02:48:11,020 --> 02:48:15,140
 main columns to make sure that it's going to sustain it and gauge how much time I have

1782
02:48:15,140 --> 02:48:17,260
 to get and get out.

1783
02:48:17,260 --> 02:48:21,980
 But the question, and I know why you're asking this because why is it even relevant, right?

1784
02:48:21,980 --> 02:48:24,860
 Because it's a question that we need to throw out because they may not even be relevant

1785
02:48:24,860 --> 02:48:25,860
 to firefighters.

1786
02:48:25,860 --> 02:48:30,980
 But I think if it's going to talk about that and make reference to the columns, then I

1787
02:48:30,980 --> 02:48:32,380
 think it is relevant.

1788
02:48:32,380 --> 02:48:34,180
 The question is very basic though.

1789
02:48:34,180 --> 02:48:36,740
 Lumber is graded on the basis of what?

1790
02:48:36,740 --> 02:48:39,020
 It's evaluated on the basis of what?

1791
02:48:39,020 --> 02:48:45,860
 On strength and appearance, and I can make an argument for strength and durability.

1792
02:48:45,860 --> 02:48:46,860
 And I'm okay with that.

1793
02:48:46,860 --> 02:48:52,180
 And that's where I was, I'm just trying to see why this is relevant.

1794
02:48:52,180 --> 02:48:57,740
 I mean, you have to be able to do a quick study or either you have records that indicate

1795
02:48:57,740 --> 02:49:03,660
 what kind of risk you're going into, you know?

1796
02:49:03,660 --> 02:49:05,660
 And that's why they need to know it.

1797
02:49:05,660 --> 02:49:08,540
 That's why it's in there so that they're aware of it.

1798
02:49:08,540 --> 02:49:12,500
 I mean, over the years, again, I'll go back to my experience.

1799
02:49:12,500 --> 02:49:19,740
 I've learned a lot about building construction that I wondered, that I never thought about

1800
02:49:19,740 --> 02:49:25,980
 before until I was thinking and trying to think in terms of a fire person and how they

1801
02:49:25,980 --> 02:49:28,860
 would go into a building and what they need to know.

1802
02:49:28,860 --> 02:49:34,580
 So I think that's why the durability, and that's not our decision to make.

1803
02:49:34,580 --> 02:49:38,220
 That's the fire department's decision as to whether it's relevant or not.

1804
02:49:38,220 --> 02:49:42,900
 If it's not relevant, then they take it out of the testing.

1805
02:49:42,900 --> 02:49:50,460
 Okay, then there's a motion on the floor.

1806
02:49:50,460 --> 02:49:58,820
 I'll allow because of what I promised earlier, who do we have, Cole?

1807
02:49:58,820 --> 02:50:02,260
 Yes, sir.

1808
02:50:02,260 --> 02:50:05,980
 The way that I'm kind of looking at the way lumber is graded, and I see what y'all are

1809
02:50:05,980 --> 02:50:09,740
 saying as far as the fire department, but going back to what Chief Skipper said a minute

1810
02:50:09,740 --> 02:50:15,300
 ago, the way that these tests are written, we are able to be tested on the copyright

1811
02:50:15,300 --> 02:50:19,940
 date of the book if that just happens to be one of the questions that comes up.

1812
02:50:19,940 --> 02:50:22,940
 Is that necessary for something on the fire ground?

1813
02:50:22,940 --> 02:50:23,940
 Absolutely not.

1814
02:50:23,940 --> 02:50:24,940
 Everybody would agree with that.

1815
02:50:24,940 --> 02:50:27,860
 However, that is still a possibility for a question.

1816
02:50:27,860 --> 02:50:34,820
 Also, when it comes to how lumber is graded, it's not necessarily graded for the fire service.

1817
02:50:34,820 --> 02:50:37,260
 It's graded for construction companies.

1818
02:50:37,260 --> 02:50:42,140
 So if you go to Lowe's or you go to Home Depot and you walk in there, just because it's graded

1819
02:50:42,140 --> 02:50:47,740
 for a certain thing, it's graded for what the answer is, strength and appearance.

1820
02:50:47,740 --> 02:50:51,900
 Not graded for the fire service, and I think that's kind of where the difference comes

1821
02:50:51,900 --> 02:50:54,020
 in there.

1822
02:50:54,020 --> 02:50:56,420
 Okay.

1823
02:50:56,420 --> 02:50:58,940
 Thank you, Cole.

1824
02:50:58,940 --> 02:51:00,460
 Casey?

1825
02:51:00,460 --> 02:51:06,980
 I was pretty much going to say what Cole said.

1826
02:51:06,980 --> 02:51:07,980
 Okay.

1827
02:51:07,980 --> 02:51:08,980
 Shay?

1828
02:51:08,980 --> 02:51:13,500
 Yeah, I think Cole kind of hit it.

1829
02:51:13,500 --> 02:51:18,500
 It says in the book, if we start going off of something that's different, I mean, it

1830
02:51:18,500 --> 02:51:23,020
 just says right there in the book, in two spots, it says the same thing, almost exactly,

1831
02:51:23,020 --> 02:51:25,860
 that they're graded for strength and appearance.

1832
02:51:25,860 --> 02:51:30,580
 It says nothing about the durability, nothing about the cost in that sentence or in those

1833
02:51:30,580 --> 02:51:35,380
 parts when it's talking about how the lumber is actually graded.

1834
02:51:35,380 --> 02:51:38,740
 All it says is strength and appearance.

1835
02:51:38,740 --> 02:51:45,580
 So I vote that we sustain the key on that one.

1836
02:51:45,580 --> 02:51:49,940
 You don't get to vote.

1837
02:51:49,940 --> 02:51:50,940
 Good thought, though.

1838
02:51:50,940 --> 02:51:53,380
 Keep that in mind.

1839
02:51:53,380 --> 02:51:58,060
 It was worth a shot.

1840
02:51:58,060 --> 02:51:59,060
 Rhett?

1841
02:51:59,060 --> 02:52:00,060
 Good shot.

1842
02:52:00,060 --> 02:52:01,060
 Good shot.

1843
02:52:01,060 --> 02:52:02,060
 Yes, sir.

1844
02:52:02,060 --> 02:52:09,340
 I'll try to make this as brief as possible because I know that, yes, I have no leg to

1845
02:52:09,340 --> 02:52:19,060
 stand on if you're going to grade the answer on a specific sentence, but in the fire service,

1846
02:52:19,060 --> 02:52:22,100
 this is a concept field of work.

1847
02:52:22,100 --> 02:52:29,520
 And when you're looking at a building and the engineers, this is not from the book.

1848
02:52:29,520 --> 02:52:35,940
 This is a whole encompassing process of building construction from the book.

1849
02:52:35,940 --> 02:52:42,420
 This book, other books of building construction that we have been tested on and from personal

1850
02:52:42,420 --> 02:52:43,460
 experience.

1851
02:52:43,460 --> 02:52:49,780
 When an engineer designs a building and he uses lumber, he is at liberty to engineer

1852
02:52:49,780 --> 02:52:56,660
 that building based off of cost, structural strength, durability.

1853
02:52:56,660 --> 02:53:02,540
 And what is the other one, appearance, I guess.

1854
02:53:02,540 --> 02:53:07,300
 Appearance is a primary answer here.

1855
02:53:07,300 --> 02:53:11,740
 We're going to hold our building based off its appearance.

1856
02:53:11,740 --> 02:53:16,900
 So I know that whenever I go into a building, I'm not going to judge it by its appearance,

1857
02:53:16,900 --> 02:53:22,380
 but its skeleton framework and all of it as an encompassing, that's what the engineer

1858
02:53:22,380 --> 02:53:23,380
 is.

1859
02:53:23,380 --> 02:53:29,780
 So, you know, back to quality control of lumber is the title.

1860
02:53:29,780 --> 02:53:36,340
 Now we've already referenced in the past that on number two, the ISO book, the answers were

1861
02:53:36,340 --> 02:53:41,100
 not a direct sentence, it was actually subtitles of the main title.

1862
02:53:41,100 --> 02:53:48,340
 So I would like to urge from this point forward, regardless of the outcome, that us as a department

1863
02:53:48,340 --> 02:53:53,960
 need to determine where our common ground is going to be.

1864
02:53:53,960 --> 02:53:56,620
 So that's all I have.

1865
02:53:56,620 --> 02:53:57,620
 >> Okay.

1866
02:53:57,620 --> 02:54:00,820
 Was there another one?

1867
02:54:00,820 --> 02:54:01,820
 Okay.

1868
02:54:01,820 --> 02:54:09,780
 There's a motion to the commissioners, there's a motion on the floor to accept B and C.

1869
02:54:09,780 --> 02:54:17,220
 Cole, did you just raise your hand?

1870
02:54:17,220 --> 02:54:18,220
 >> Yes, sir.

1871
02:54:18,220 --> 02:54:19,220
 I'm sorry.

1872
02:54:19,220 --> 02:54:20,220
 I won't waste your time a whole lot.

1873
02:54:20,220 --> 02:54:25,180
 Remember, I mean no disrespect to you personally, I would just like to point out that the references

1874
02:54:25,180 --> 02:54:29,500
 he threw out on that last one were not based out of this book, which we are tested out

1875
02:54:29,500 --> 02:54:30,500
 of.

1876
02:54:30,500 --> 02:54:35,340
 I understand personal experience and I understand his points, but I just wanted to throw that

1877
02:54:35,340 --> 02:54:41,980
 out there before we make a final decision here.

1878
02:54:41,980 --> 02:54:47,380
 >> Again, there's a motion on the floor that we're in discussion.

1879
02:54:47,380 --> 02:54:53,640
 The only reference that I see on this page, now I obviously haven't read the book like

1880
02:54:53,640 --> 02:54:58,020
 these guys have, these folks have.

1881
02:54:58,020 --> 02:55:06,260
 The durability issue, the word durability comes about in discussion of wood paneling,

1882
02:55:06,260 --> 02:55:12,500
 wood panel products, not lumber.

1883
02:55:12,500 --> 02:55:19,580
 So the durability, strength is in both, but the one that comes out as the definition for

1884
02:55:19,580 --> 02:55:25,300
 grading of lumber is strength and appearance.

1885
02:55:25,300 --> 02:55:30,500
 Now that being said, the motion on the floor is to accept B and C.

1886
02:55:30,500 --> 02:55:34,860
 >> But before we vote, can I ask one more question, Chair?

1887
02:55:34,860 --> 02:55:35,860
 >> Sure.

1888
02:55:35,860 --> 02:55:36,860
 We're still in discussion.

1889
02:55:36,860 --> 02:55:37,860
 >> Okay.

1890
02:55:37,860 --> 02:55:47,740
 On page 195, there are some pictures there, and it has these titles, APA, APA, APA, and

1891
02:55:47,740 --> 02:56:01,940
 then it says 24OC, 4824, 16OC, what are those?

1892
02:56:01,940 --> 02:56:06,200
 >> The span rating, Cole?

1893
02:56:06,200 --> 02:56:08,420
 >> What does that mean?

1894
02:56:08,420 --> 02:56:09,420
 >> I don't know.

1895
02:56:09,420 --> 02:56:10,980
 Just reading the book.

1896
02:56:10,980 --> 02:56:14,620
 Cole, can you enlighten us?

1897
02:56:14,620 --> 02:56:17,340
 >> So all of those are the stamps on the wood.

1898
02:56:17,340 --> 02:56:20,060
 And underneath it gives a listing of everything it is.

1899
02:56:20,060 --> 02:56:25,780
 It could be anything from the mill that it came from to the grain orientation indicator.

1900
02:56:25,780 --> 02:56:32,100
 But if you look at number one on that gray, grayed out piece in figure 7.25 that you're

1901
02:56:32,100 --> 02:56:35,140
 talking about, it has the panel grade.

1902
02:56:35,140 --> 02:56:41,560
 So while it looks like there's a lot more there, not all of that is the grading.

1903
02:56:41,560 --> 02:56:52,700
 So tell me about 7.24, figure 7.24.

1904
02:56:52,700 --> 02:56:53,700
 >> I'm sorry.

1905
02:56:53,700 --> 02:56:55,620
 I thought we were looking at 7.25.

1906
02:56:55,620 --> 02:56:56,620
 >> I was.

1907
02:56:56,620 --> 02:56:57,700
 But it's all numbers.

1908
02:56:57,700 --> 02:57:02,940
 And I'm just -- to me, it appears they're trying to impart some type of information

1909
02:57:02,940 --> 02:57:03,940
 to us.

1910
02:57:03,940 --> 02:57:08,820
 And I didn't know if this -- when you go into a -- do you look at this?

1911
02:57:08,820 --> 02:57:13,660
 Do you memorize this?

1912
02:57:13,660 --> 02:57:15,500
 What's the benefit of these numbers?

1913
02:57:15,500 --> 02:57:17,220
 >> All right.

1914
02:57:17,220 --> 02:57:22,300
 >> That I'm not sure I can answer.

1915
02:57:22,300 --> 02:57:28,420
 I'm talking about engineers versus these.

1916
02:57:28,420 --> 02:57:29,420
 >> Figure --

1917
02:57:29,420 --> 02:57:31,620
 >> We're working on your answer, John.

1918
02:57:31,620 --> 02:57:32,620
 >> Thank you.

1919
02:57:32,620 --> 02:57:33,620
 I was just clarifying.

1920
02:57:33,620 --> 02:57:38,660
 Figure 7.24, and then you go down to 7.25, you have lots of numbers and information.

1921
02:57:38,660 --> 02:57:40,820
 They're trying to impart something to us.

1922
02:57:40,820 --> 02:57:42,140
 They're trying to tell us something.

1923
02:57:42,140 --> 02:57:53,240
 And I'm trying to understand what it is they're telling us.

1924
02:57:53,240 --> 02:57:54,240
 >> I'm going to speak --

1925
02:57:54,240 --> 02:57:59,820
 >> I was asking -- I was asking kind of a both in the sense that this would be stamped

1926
02:57:59,820 --> 02:58:07,720
 on the -- the APA rating thing would be stamped on the wood, which is the picture up here.

1927
02:58:07,720 --> 02:58:10,140
 But can we interpret this?

1928
02:58:10,140 --> 02:58:12,980
 Is this 220C?

1929
02:58:12,980 --> 02:58:15,500
 As opposed to -- is that the span rating?

1930
02:58:15,500 --> 02:58:25,420
 >> I'm going to go with span rating for that, but I don't know -- I can't because it says

1931
02:58:25,420 --> 02:58:26,420
 that it's -- indicate all of them there.

1932
02:58:26,420 --> 02:58:27,420
 But the rate -- the grade specifically says it's rated for sheeting.

1933
02:58:27,420 --> 02:58:36,420
 So, you know, it's -- that panel that would have that -- whether it's OSB or sheet apply

1934
02:58:36,420 --> 02:58:47,380
 would be graded -- rated for sheeting and construction using as a sheeting product.

1935
02:58:47,380 --> 02:58:56,900
 >> So if -- if I understand this and maybe, John, there's the -- the picture of the -- of

1936
02:58:56,900 --> 02:58:57,900
 the plank --

1937
02:58:57,900 --> 02:58:58,900
 >> Yes.

1938
02:58:58,900 --> 02:59:03,060
 >> -- in 24 is lumber.

1939
02:59:03,060 --> 02:59:04,460
 >> Yes.

1940
02:59:04,460 --> 02:59:15,100
 >> The stamps that would appear on the back of paneling or plywood would be 25.

1941
02:59:15,100 --> 02:59:16,100
 Is that a correct?

1942
02:59:16,100 --> 02:59:17,100
 >> Yeah.

1943
02:59:17,100 --> 02:59:22,040
 >> This would be what's on lumber.

1944
02:59:22,040 --> 02:59:24,140
 This would be what would be on paneling or plywood?

1945
02:59:24,140 --> 02:59:31,500
 >> I think lumber is a more generalized term that includes a beam like this or plywood.

1946
02:59:31,500 --> 02:59:32,500
 >> Okay.

1947
02:59:32,500 --> 02:59:35,100
 >> It could include everything.

1948
02:59:35,100 --> 02:59:37,460
 So a general term, specific term.

1949
02:59:37,460 --> 02:59:45,020
 >> So a -- so a 724 could be a -- a two by six?

1950
02:59:45,020 --> 02:59:47,020
 >> Yes.

1951
02:59:47,020 --> 02:59:51,140
 >> But 725 would be a panel sheeting.

1952
02:59:51,140 --> 02:59:52,140
 A piece of plywood.

1953
02:59:52,140 --> 02:59:53,140
 >> Okay.

1954
02:59:53,140 --> 02:59:54,140
 >> Half-inch plywood or something.

1955
02:59:54,140 --> 02:59:55,140
 >> Okay.

1956
02:59:55,140 --> 02:59:57,180
 So now this brings me to my final question.

1957
02:59:57,180 --> 02:59:58,180
 Okay?

1958
02:59:58,180 --> 02:59:59,180
 >> Wow.

1959
02:59:59,180 --> 03:00:00,180
 [ Laughter ]

1960
03:00:00,180 --> 03:00:03,700
 >> You weren't supposed to hear that.

1961
03:00:03,700 --> 03:00:04,700
 [ Laughter ]

1962
03:00:04,700 --> 03:00:08,140
 >> It brings me to my final question.

1963
03:00:08,140 --> 03:00:13,620
 So when I look at that, am I looking at strength and appearance or am I looking at strength

1964
03:00:13,620 --> 03:00:15,620
 and durability in 724?

1965
03:00:15,620 --> 03:00:16,620
 >> Okay.

1966
03:00:16,620 --> 03:00:17,620
 >> Right there?

1967
03:00:17,620 --> 03:00:18,620
 >> Yes.

1968
03:00:18,620 --> 03:00:19,620
 724.

1969
03:00:19,620 --> 03:00:30,420
 >> I can't tell you which one specifically is the grade because I just did not -- on

1970
03:00:30,420 --> 03:00:31,420
 that stand.

1971
03:00:31,420 --> 03:00:37,680
 This one listed out specifically, but I couldn't tell you exactly what this part right here

1972
03:00:37,680 --> 03:00:42,380
 or this part right here, the KDHT, I'm not sure what that stands for.

1973
03:00:42,380 --> 03:00:45,620
 So I can't look at that and tell you what the grade is on that stand.

1974
03:00:45,620 --> 03:00:48,100
 I just don't have enough knowledge to answer that question.

1975
03:00:48,100 --> 03:00:52,060
 The 22 is probably strength.

1976
03:00:52,060 --> 03:00:53,060
 Whatever that is.

1977
03:00:53,060 --> 03:00:54,060
 >> Okay.

1978
03:00:54,060 --> 03:00:55,060
 >> Whatever the span rating is.

1979
03:00:55,060 --> 03:00:56,060
 >> Thank you.

1980
03:00:56,060 --> 03:01:01,020
 >> Span ratings are different for roof, ceiling, and subflooring because roof supports are

1981
03:01:01,020 --> 03:01:04,500
 often spaced wider apart than floor supports.

1982
03:01:04,500 --> 03:01:05,500
 So.

1983
03:01:05,500 --> 03:01:06,500
 >> Thank you.

1984
03:01:06,500 --> 03:01:11,820
 Thank you for taking my time -- taking the time.

1985
03:01:11,820 --> 03:01:14,060
 >> Now do you know anymore about how your house is built?

1986
03:01:14,060 --> 03:01:15,060
 >> No.

1987
03:01:15,060 --> 03:01:16,060
 I'm just trying to answer this question.

1988
03:01:16,060 --> 03:01:17,060
 I'm trying to get there.

1989
03:01:17,060 --> 03:01:18,060
 >> I'm with you.

1990
03:01:18,060 --> 03:01:19,060
 All right.

1991
03:01:19,060 --> 03:01:34,980
 There is a motion on the floor to accept B and C as acceptable answers.

1992
03:01:34,980 --> 03:01:36,780
 Are we ready to vote?

1993
03:01:36,780 --> 03:01:37,780
 >> Yes.

1994
03:01:37,780 --> 03:01:45,340
 >> All in favor of accepting B and C, say aye.

1995
03:01:45,340 --> 03:01:47,340
 Opposed?

1996
03:01:47,340 --> 03:01:49,620
 >> Nay.

1997
03:01:49,620 --> 03:01:50,860
 >> Nay.

1998
03:01:50,860 --> 03:01:51,860
 So the motion fails.

1999
03:01:51,860 --> 03:01:54,860
 >> Let's go the other direction.

2000
03:01:54,860 --> 03:01:55,860
 >> All right.

2001
03:01:55,860 --> 03:02:01,180
 >> I'll make a motion that we sustain the key.

2002
03:02:01,180 --> 03:02:04,620
 >> I'll second.

2003
03:02:04,620 --> 03:02:06,780
 Any other discussion?

2004
03:02:06,780 --> 03:02:10,100
 Now we turn it around and rediscuss.

2005
03:02:10,100 --> 03:02:11,100
 >> I'm done.

2006
03:02:11,100 --> 03:02:12,100
 I'm good.

2007
03:02:12,100 --> 03:02:13,100
 >> No.

2008
03:02:13,100 --> 03:02:16,740
 I don't have -- I mean, that's the -- we need to give chance.

2009
03:02:16,740 --> 03:02:17,740
 >> Oh.

2010
03:02:17,740 --> 03:02:18,740
 Absolutely.

2011
03:02:18,740 --> 03:02:19,740
 Absolutely.

2012
03:02:19,740 --> 03:02:25,060
 >> To me, I think that strength and durability are synonyms.

2013
03:02:25,060 --> 03:02:28,060
 They're the same thing.

2014
03:02:28,060 --> 03:02:33,020
 And it's saying here that it can be -- the lumber can be graded, evaluated based on strength

2015
03:02:33,020 --> 03:02:34,020
 and appearance.

2016
03:02:34,020 --> 03:02:36,340
 Therefore, strength and durability are the same.

2017
03:02:36,340 --> 03:02:40,820
 Can lumber be, like someone said, and appearance not be taken into consideration and still

2018
03:02:40,820 --> 03:02:41,820
 be graded, still be evaluated?

2019
03:02:41,820 --> 03:02:42,820
 Yes, I think it can.

2020
03:02:42,820 --> 03:02:47,620
 So that's the only reason I would say accept that.

2021
03:02:47,620 --> 03:02:48,940
 >> Okay.

2022
03:02:48,940 --> 03:02:53,340
 Are we ready to vote again?

2023
03:02:53,340 --> 03:02:54,340
 Motion on the floor now.

2024
03:02:54,340 --> 03:02:55,340
 John, do you have something?

2025
03:02:55,340 --> 03:02:56,340
 >> No, no, no.

2026
03:02:56,340 --> 03:03:01,620
 You have to ask me if I was ready, and I'll give you the sign.

2027
03:03:01,620 --> 03:03:02,620
 >> Okay.

2028
03:03:02,620 --> 03:03:07,540
 Motion now on the floor for item 70 is to sustain the key.

2029
03:03:07,540 --> 03:03:09,420
 All in favor, say aye.

2030
03:03:09,420 --> 03:03:10,420
 >> Aye.

2031
03:03:10,420 --> 03:03:11,420
 >> Aye.

2032
03:03:11,420 --> 03:03:14,540
 >> Opposed?

2033
03:03:14,540 --> 03:03:21,260
 >> Nay.

2034
03:03:21,260 --> 03:03:24,220
 >> Motion carries to sustain the key.

2035
03:03:24,220 --> 03:03:27,100
 All right.

2036
03:03:27,100 --> 03:03:30,860
 Next question is 75.

2037
03:03:30,860 --> 03:03:38,500
 Rhett, since you're here, you get to lead the discussion here.

2038
03:03:38,500 --> 03:03:43,500
 Oh, gosh, I was not prepared for this one.

2039
03:03:43,500 --> 03:03:44,500
 Sorry.

2040
03:03:44,500 --> 03:03:45,500
 I zoned out.

2041
03:03:45,500 --> 03:03:46,500
 75.

2042
03:03:46,500 --> 03:03:47,500
 Oh, okay.

2043
03:03:47,500 --> 03:03:56,980
 Well, I got good news and bad news.

2044
03:03:56,980 --> 03:04:01,660
 Unfortunately, this will be my last question, but the good news is you won't have to listen

2045
03:04:01,660 --> 03:04:02,660
 to me anymore.

2046
03:04:02,660 --> 03:04:03,660
 That's not an issue.

2047
03:04:03,660 --> 03:04:04,660
 >> It's not an issue for me.

2048
03:04:04,660 --> 03:04:13,380
 >> That's why they pay us the big bucks here, Rhett.

2049
03:04:13,380 --> 03:04:15,340
 >> That's good.

2050
03:04:15,340 --> 03:04:22,040
 You know, okay, so the answer was found on page 243.

2051
03:04:22,040 --> 03:04:33,900
 I had a problem with this question because it said, let's see, the question is which

2052
03:04:33,900 --> 03:04:35,780
 of the following statements is true?

2053
03:04:35,780 --> 03:04:42,180
 Now, we're supposed to choose the best answer for this particular question, and the only

2054
03:04:42,180 --> 03:04:46,060
 thing that are constant in this question is venting for life or venting for fire, and

2055
03:04:46,060 --> 03:04:47,140
 they're in quotations.

2056
03:04:47,140 --> 03:04:51,660
 So my challenge to this question is what are we placing emphasis on?

2057
03:04:51,660 --> 03:04:57,020
 Are we placing emphasis on the fire or the life?

2058
03:04:57,020 --> 03:05:03,540
 And I understand you're supposed to choose the most correct answer, but I'm going to

2059
03:05:03,540 --> 03:05:08,940
 challenge the concept because this is a concept book.

2060
03:05:08,940 --> 03:05:16,460
 Now, I'm very much aware that my colleagues are going to say that this is a direct sentence,

2061
03:05:16,460 --> 03:05:19,980
 word for word, out of the book, okay?

2062
03:05:19,980 --> 03:05:24,840
 However, when you first start that paragraph, when distinguishing between venting for life

2063
03:05:24,840 --> 03:05:30,780
 and venting for fire, the key factor is timing of the ventilation, and I put emphasis on

2064
03:05:30,780 --> 03:05:39,220
 that because this is, I feel like should be a SOP question and not a textbook-driven question

2065
03:05:39,220 --> 03:05:45,780
 because now we're having a test question that is based off of operational standard of our

2066
03:05:45,780 --> 03:05:47,620
 department.

2067
03:05:47,620 --> 03:05:59,900
 The author of this book clearly states repetitively on pages 241, 247, 171, life is the main,

2068
03:05:59,900 --> 03:06:08,820
 life is the main priority when we're sizing up a structure to determine our goal, our

2069
03:06:08,820 --> 03:06:09,820
 outcome.

2070
03:06:09,820 --> 03:06:19,620
 Now, he specifically says in numerous pages that you should locate, confine, and extinguish.

2071
03:06:19,620 --> 03:06:24,180
 Ventilation is never part of this, but what he does say is that ventilation, if drawn

2072
03:06:24,180 --> 03:06:30,300
 into the wrong hands, can injure or kill someone if you're in the middle of the direct flow

2073
03:06:30,300 --> 03:06:34,100
 path of the fire and the opening.

2074
03:06:34,100 --> 03:06:43,140
 So I would urge the department on this to really consider what message they're sending

2075
03:06:43,140 --> 03:06:51,500
 to the candidate because the first thing we're trained not to do is to just go up and ventilate.

2076
03:06:51,500 --> 03:06:57,540
 Our first priority, which the author says, is to locate the victim.

2077
03:06:57,540 --> 03:07:13,260
 And I particularly did not like this question, but that's just my opinion.

2078
03:07:13,260 --> 03:07:15,540
 Okay.

2079
03:07:15,540 --> 03:07:23,180
 Mr. Punches adds to that, "Venting is a task that is priority on any fire.

2080
03:07:23,180 --> 03:07:28,900
 If venting is achieved in a proper fashion, then both fire and life will benefit from

2081
03:07:28,900 --> 03:07:31,620
 the task.

2082
03:07:31,620 --> 03:07:34,980
 Venting is done no matter if it's fire or life."

2083
03:07:34,980 --> 03:07:36,860
 Bad question, bad answers.

2084
03:07:36,860 --> 03:07:45,220
 He said the question's faulty and should be dismissed or should be eliminated just for

2085
03:07:45,220 --> 03:07:47,300
 the record.

2086
03:07:47,300 --> 03:07:54,020
 Mr. Questions of the appellant?

2087
03:07:54,020 --> 03:07:56,980
 I have no questions at this time.

2088
03:07:56,980 --> 03:07:58,980
 Thank you.

2089
03:07:58,980 --> 03:07:59,980
 No questions?

2090
03:07:59,980 --> 03:08:00,980
 Okay.

2091
03:08:00,980 --> 03:08:01,980
 Fire response.

2092
03:08:01,980 --> 03:08:10,740
 We're about to sustain the key.

2093
03:08:10,740 --> 03:08:14,580
 It's a direct quote from the book.

2094
03:08:14,580 --> 03:08:18,980
 First appeal states an opinion does not refer to an actual text from the source material.

2095
03:08:18,980 --> 03:08:22,460
 The second appeal does not really state anything wrong with question or provide an alternate

2096
03:08:22,460 --> 03:08:25,460
 answer based on a text.

2097
03:08:25,460 --> 03:08:30,940
 The key answer is correct.

2098
03:08:30,940 --> 03:08:39,540
 Question for fire?

2099
03:08:39,540 --> 03:08:41,140
 No question of fire at this time.

2100
03:08:41,140 --> 03:08:42,140
 No question.

2101
03:08:42,140 --> 03:08:46,620
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal, appeals?

2102
03:08:46,620 --> 03:08:47,620
 Casey?

2103
03:08:47,620 --> 03:08:48,620
 Yes, sir.

2104
03:08:48,620 --> 03:09:03,400
 The only thing I would say to this is the book says the key factor is the timing of

2105
03:09:03,400 --> 03:09:11,500
 the ventilation, which statement is true, venting for life should be in as soon as possible

2106
03:09:11,500 --> 03:09:13,940
 is the only one that can be true.

2107
03:09:13,940 --> 03:09:18,300
 To say venting for fire is normally not necessary if venting for life has been successfully

2108
03:09:18,300 --> 03:09:26,820
 executed is not necessarily true, venting for life must be completed before or venting

2109
03:09:26,820 --> 03:09:31,300
 for fire must be completed before venting for life can be initiated is not true because

2110
03:09:31,300 --> 03:09:36,380
 the book states venting for life should obviously begin as soon as possible after the life hazard

2111
03:09:36,380 --> 03:09:40,180
 is recognized and also states venting for fire on the other hand is normally delayed

2112
03:09:40,180 --> 03:09:45,220
 until resources are in place to attack and to say venting for life is usually conducted

2113
03:09:45,220 --> 03:09:48,260
 after all other rescue efforts have failed is not true.

2114
03:09:48,260 --> 03:09:52,060
 Again, the book states venting for life should obviously begin as soon as possible after

2115
03:09:52,060 --> 03:09:57,100
 the life hazard has been is recognized.

2116
03:09:57,100 --> 03:09:59,260
 Thank you.

2117
03:09:59,260 --> 03:10:00,940
 Anyone else?

2118
03:10:00,940 --> 03:10:10,580
 All right, commissioners, I would accept a motion.

2119
03:10:10,580 --> 03:10:12,860
 I'll motion to sustain the key.

2120
03:10:12,860 --> 03:10:23,380
 I'll second discussion seeing none.

2121
03:10:23,380 --> 03:10:27,140
 All in favor of sustaining the key on question 75.

2122
03:10:27,140 --> 03:10:31,900
 All say aye.

2123
03:10:31,900 --> 03:10:33,900
 Motion carries.

2124
03:10:33,900 --> 03:10:38,620
 Next, question 81.

2125
03:10:38,620 --> 03:11:07,940
 Sorry, I'm trying to get my paperwork straight here.

2126
03:11:07,940 --> 03:11:12,220
 As the day progresses, the paperwork gets less organized.

2127
03:11:12,220 --> 03:11:29,140
 All right, 75 to how many are there five appeals?

2128
03:11:29,140 --> 03:11:45,100
 I'm missing appeals, hang on.

2129
03:11:45,100 --> 03:11:55,100
 Okay, there we go.

2130
03:11:55,100 --> 03:12:01,940
 Question 81, five appeals.

2131
03:12:01,940 --> 03:12:04,580
 All right.

2132
03:12:04,580 --> 03:12:07,980
 Mr. Antwiler is not here.

2133
03:12:07,980 --> 03:12:21,180
 Mr. Coyle, is that Mr. Glaze, Jason Glaze?

2134
03:12:21,180 --> 03:12:27,220
 Yeah, I'm here, hang on, can you hear me?

2135
03:12:27,220 --> 03:12:28,780
 I can hear you.

2136
03:12:28,780 --> 03:12:30,140
 There we go.

2137
03:12:30,140 --> 03:12:31,860
 There you are.

2138
03:12:31,860 --> 03:12:32,860
 Welcome.

2139
03:12:32,860 --> 03:12:37,100
 Thank you, how are you all doing?

2140
03:12:37,100 --> 03:12:38,100
 Good.

2141
03:12:38,100 --> 03:12:43,340
 Just want to add to my appeal, the opening up section is a subcategory in the overall

2142
03:12:43,340 --> 03:12:50,140
 section and on page 190, it states overall, in a broad sense, may be considered any action

2143
03:12:50,140 --> 03:12:55,260
 taken to expose hidden fire and ensure its extinguishment.

2144
03:12:55,260 --> 03:13:02,820
 And in the next paragraph from where the question's taken, he states it takes a lot of opening

2145
03:13:02,820 --> 03:13:07,380
 up and a good deal of water to make sure that the fire has been completely extinguished.

2146
03:13:07,380 --> 03:13:16,140
 So being in the overall mindset, I pick D because I don't know of any fire that we're

2147
03:13:16,140 --> 03:13:24,980
 not going to open up, and that's all I got.

2148
03:13:24,980 --> 03:13:26,340
 Okay.

2149
03:13:26,340 --> 03:13:30,020
 Thank you, sir.

2150
03:13:30,020 --> 03:13:32,020
 Jason Owen?

2151
03:13:32,020 --> 03:13:35,660
 No, not here.

2152
03:13:35,660 --> 03:13:38,580
 Well, good.

2153
03:13:38,580 --> 03:13:40,060
 Okay.

2154
03:13:40,060 --> 03:13:41,740
 81.

2155
03:13:41,740 --> 03:13:46,780
 All right.

2156
03:13:46,780 --> 03:13:55,900
 Mr. Punches says that another answer, D, also says D, media vicinity of the object includes

2157
03:13:55,900 --> 03:14:04,700
 the walls and floor and ceiling around the object, therefore B and D are correct.

2158
03:14:04,700 --> 03:14:14,540
 Mr. Owen says the question is not fully, I can't read his writing.

2159
03:14:14,540 --> 03:14:37,980
 Phrase open up signifies, okay, to open holes in the, what does it say?

2160
03:14:37,980 --> 03:14:49,100
 In the dry area or the drywall to check for extensions?

2161
03:14:49,100 --> 03:14:55,100
 Mr. Coyle says just after a room is knocked down by the hose stream, the first opening

2162
03:14:55,100 --> 03:15:01,300
 should be made near already existing openings through the plaster board or plaster.

2163
03:15:01,300 --> 03:15:10,060
 Public states that openings, penetrations should be the first to be opened up.

2164
03:15:10,060 --> 03:15:16,780
 Mr. Atwiler says question doesn't give a clear picture of what is going on in the room.

2165
03:15:16,780 --> 03:15:22,220
 If it mentioned if the walls had fire, smoke or other problems, then A should have been

2166
03:15:22,220 --> 03:15:26,100
 the correct answer, but the vague question left it up in the air.

2167
03:15:26,100 --> 03:15:33,580
 We recently went to the mattress fire, was ordered to open the drywall to check for extension.

2168
03:15:33,580 --> 03:15:42,380
 So he said answer A should also be given for credit, as did Mr. Coyle, as did all the other

2169
03:15:42,380 --> 03:15:43,380
 appellants.

2170
03:15:43,380 --> 03:15:51,340
 No, A and D along with B has the correct answer.

2171
03:15:51,340 --> 03:16:07,840
 Questions of the appellant?

2172
03:16:07,840 --> 03:16:13,620
 Seeing none, fire response.

2173
03:16:13,620 --> 03:16:18,100
 We supposed to sustain the key, B is clearly stated in the text and should be the only

2174
03:16:18,100 --> 03:16:24,500
 accepted answer, answer A is not the correct answer because it states all drywall.

2175
03:16:24,500 --> 03:16:28,800
 The text does not state all, it basically said start with the penetrations affected

2176
03:16:28,800 --> 03:16:33,420
 directly by the fire and move away until you reach clear bays.

2177
03:16:33,420 --> 03:16:43,860
 Answer D is also false because it includes the word always, again the text does not state

2178
03:16:43,860 --> 03:16:49,900
 that it needs to always be opened up.

2179
03:16:49,900 --> 03:16:53,420
 Question of fire?

2180
03:16:53,420 --> 03:16:55,660
 No questions at this time.

2181
03:16:55,660 --> 03:16:56,660
 Okay.

2182
03:16:56,660 --> 03:17:09,420
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeals?

2183
03:17:09,420 --> 03:17:21,420
 Seeing no one, Casey, where is Casey?

2184
03:17:21,420 --> 03:17:30,460
 I guess my argument to say is the knockdown fire doesn't say that it's near drywall.

2185
03:17:30,460 --> 03:17:36,820
 It doesn't say that there's floor space involved and those answers state that it must include

2186
03:17:36,820 --> 03:17:40,100
 all drywall penetrations, which isn't always the case.

2187
03:17:40,100 --> 03:17:47,420
 If you have a couch in the center of a room and it's not fully involved, just a part of

2188
03:17:47,420 --> 03:17:53,820
 it was on fire, there wasn't a flash, you're not necessarily going to tear up the rest

2189
03:17:53,820 --> 03:17:58,140
 of the room because it was localized to that one piece.

2190
03:17:58,140 --> 03:18:04,300
 So I understand where the confusion might have come from through some assumption, but

2191
03:18:04,300 --> 03:18:09,060
 I would say that it can be confined to the immediate vicinity of the object and the object

2192
03:18:09,060 --> 03:18:16,060
 itself prevents unnecessary damage and overhaul.

2193
03:18:16,060 --> 03:18:17,060
 Thank you.

2194
03:18:17,060 --> 03:18:18,060
 Anyone else?

2195
03:18:18,060 --> 03:18:19,060
 Cole?

2196
03:18:19,060 --> 03:18:24,500
 Just real quick, I know you're probably ready to be done, just like all of us.

2197
03:18:24,500 --> 03:18:30,540
 Adding to what the department said in regards to question A, if on page 197 it says as long

2198
03:18:30,540 --> 03:18:35,700
 as you keep finding charred wood, keep pulling, so it doesn't necessarily have to be all of

2199
03:18:35,700 --> 03:18:37,620
 the drywall penetrations in the room.

2200
03:18:37,620 --> 03:18:48,020
 It's just whatever you keep finding, you keep going and after that you're done.

2201
03:18:48,020 --> 03:18:49,020
 Anyone else?

2202
03:18:49,020 --> 03:18:56,380
 Commissioners, I would entertain a motion.

2203
03:18:56,380 --> 03:18:59,180
 I would motion to sustain the key.

2204
03:18:59,180 --> 03:19:00,660
 I'll second.

2205
03:19:00,660 --> 03:19:03,860
 Okay, motion second.

2206
03:19:03,860 --> 03:19:06,820
 Any discussion?

2207
03:19:06,820 --> 03:19:12,060
 I think just like what Ms. Hilliard said, the all statement and the all wave statements,

2208
03:19:12,060 --> 03:19:17,540
 I think those kind of through A and B, the way, and then just reading this book, it's

2209
03:19:17,540 --> 03:19:21,740
 kind of scary because I didn't know that fire could stay somewhere and then just part back

2210
03:19:21,740 --> 03:19:22,740
 up later.

2211
03:19:22,740 --> 03:19:26,420
 So now I'm a little scared.

2212
03:19:26,420 --> 03:19:27,420
 Thanks.

2213
03:19:27,420 --> 03:19:29,500
 She's a newbie.

2214
03:19:29,500 --> 03:19:34,900
 Yeah, sometimes reading all this, you kind of go, why am I even alive?

2215
03:19:34,900 --> 03:19:38,620
 It's kind of scary sometimes, isn't it?

2216
03:19:38,620 --> 03:19:42,780
 I'm so glad that you guys are saying, like if there's anything that is not on fire, but

2217
03:19:42,780 --> 03:19:46,420
 it's just charred that you keep going, I mean, I would rather you destroy that than

2218
03:19:46,420 --> 03:19:49,260
 if I were to come back later.

2219
03:19:49,260 --> 03:19:50,260
 Absolutely.

2220
03:19:50,260 --> 03:19:55,700
 All right, any other discussion?

2221
03:19:55,700 --> 03:19:59,140
 All in favor of sustaining the key for 81, say aye.

2222
03:19:59,140 --> 03:20:00,140
 Aye.

2223
03:20:00,140 --> 03:20:01,140
 Aye.

2224
03:20:01,140 --> 03:20:06,260
 All right, motion carries.

2225
03:20:06,260 --> 03:20:14,340
 Question 88, right?

2226
03:20:14,340 --> 03:20:18,020
 And that's Mr. Punches.

2227
03:20:18,020 --> 03:20:23,060
 All right.

2228
03:20:23,060 --> 03:20:29,820
 Motion deals with as soon as the first report is received that a firefighter is down, three

2229
03:20:29,820 --> 03:20:36,740
 things should immediately happen, one of which is, A, the chief of the fire department must

2230
03:20:36,740 --> 03:20:44,620
 be notified, B, all on scene personnel must be removed from the building, C, an ALS ambulance

2231
03:20:44,620 --> 03:20:50,420
 must immediately be called to the scene if not ready on the scene, and D, water being

2232
03:20:50,420 --> 03:20:59,860
 pumped into the building must be immediately stopped.

2233
03:20:59,860 --> 03:21:05,060
 Mr. Punches says there are numerous things that will happen at the report of a firefighter

2234
03:21:05,060 --> 03:21:06,060
 down.

2235
03:21:06,060 --> 03:21:08,740
 I believe other answers are acceptable with this question.

2236
03:21:08,740 --> 03:21:15,340
 The key to answer C is not the best answer because an ALS unit will be on the scene of

2237
03:21:15,340 --> 03:21:22,660
 any working structure fire.

2238
03:21:22,660 --> 03:21:29,420
 I won't open it to questions of the appellant, so fire response.

2239
03:21:29,420 --> 03:21:39,980
 We vote to sustain the key, C is clearly stated in the text, A, B, and D are not, appeal is

2240
03:21:39,980 --> 03:21:47,060
 an opinion and not based on the text.

2241
03:21:47,060 --> 03:21:48,060
 Questions of fire?

2242
03:21:48,060 --> 03:21:53,580
 I have no questions of fire.

2243
03:21:53,580 --> 03:21:54,580
 Okay.

2244
03:21:54,580 --> 03:22:06,100
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

2245
03:22:06,100 --> 03:22:12,660
 Hearing none, commissioners, I would entertain a motion.

2246
03:22:12,660 --> 03:22:20,180
 I motion that we sustain the key.

2247
03:22:20,180 --> 03:22:27,420
 Motion second, discussion?

2248
03:22:27,420 --> 03:22:28,420
 Hearing none.

2249
03:22:28,420 --> 03:22:31,020
 All in favor of sustaining the key, say aye.

2250
03:22:31,020 --> 03:22:32,020
 Aye.

2251
03:22:32,020 --> 03:22:33,020
 Aye.

2252
03:22:33,020 --> 03:22:34,020
 Opposed?

2253
03:22:34,020 --> 03:22:38,300
 Motion passes.

2254
03:22:38,300 --> 03:22:55,100
 91, Chris Phillips, I haven't seen him.

2255
03:22:55,100 --> 03:22:58,700
 Okay.

2256
03:22:58,700 --> 03:23:04,700
 Commission says a building that has masonry exterior walls which support the floors and

2257
03:23:04,700 --> 03:23:11,540
 the roof structure along with the interior structural and nonstructural members all constructed

2258
03:23:11,540 --> 03:23:26,340
 of wood would be considered and the answers are type two, type four, type one, type three.

2259
03:23:26,340 --> 03:23:37,820
 The key answer is D, type three, construction.

2260
03:23:37,820 --> 03:23:42,140
 And the appeal says questions should be eliminated.

2261
03:23:42,140 --> 03:23:50,220
 The question is misworded.

2262
03:23:50,220 --> 03:23:55,340
 Fire response or fire decision?

2263
03:23:55,340 --> 03:23:56,340
 Sustain the key.

2264
03:23:56,340 --> 03:24:06,220
 Answer clearly stated in the text cannot be A or B since it has noncombustible members.

2265
03:24:06,220 --> 03:24:14,220
 Answer D is also false because the question does not mention heavy timber.

2266
03:24:14,220 --> 03:24:17,580
 Questions of fire?

2267
03:24:17,580 --> 03:24:22,300
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

2268
03:24:22,300 --> 03:24:26,860
 Commissioners, I would entertain a motion.

2269
03:24:26,860 --> 03:24:27,860
 Question for 91.

2270
03:24:27,860 --> 03:24:37,060
 I'll motion that we sustain the key on question 91.

2271
03:24:37,060 --> 03:24:39,300
 I'll second that motion.

2272
03:24:39,300 --> 03:24:40,300
 Okay.

2273
03:24:40,300 --> 03:24:44,420
 Motion moved and seconded.

2274
03:24:44,420 --> 03:24:47,180
 Discussion?

2275
03:24:47,180 --> 03:24:48,180
 Seeing none.

2276
03:24:48,180 --> 03:24:49,460
 Hearing none.

2277
03:24:49,460 --> 03:24:54,380
 All in favor of sustaining the key of 91, say aye.

2278
03:24:54,380 --> 03:24:56,060
 Aye.

2279
03:24:56,060 --> 03:24:58,860
 Okay.

2280
03:24:58,860 --> 03:25:02,980
 Question 92.

2281
03:25:02,980 --> 03:25:25,900
 Museums, courtrooms, restaurants and conference rooms are all examples of A, business occupancies,

2282
03:25:25,900 --> 03:25:35,620
 B, assembly occupancies, C, mercantile occupancies, D, educational occupancies.

2283
03:25:35,620 --> 03:25:41,620
 The keyed answer is B, assembly occupancies.

2284
03:25:41,620 --> 03:25:50,900
 Mr. Coyle says another answer A is correct in addition to the keyed answer.

2285
03:25:50,900 --> 03:25:53,900
 Both answers should be considered.

2286
03:25:53,900 --> 03:25:59,520
 According to the text, the determining factor to classify an occupancy as either business

2287
03:25:59,520 --> 03:26:04,020
 or assembly is the number of occupants.

2288
03:26:04,020 --> 03:26:05,980
 More or less than 50.

2289
03:26:05,980 --> 03:26:08,860
 The question does not provide this information.

2290
03:26:08,860 --> 03:26:15,620
 Therefore, both business and assembly could be the appropriate classification.

2291
03:26:15,620 --> 03:26:27,020
 Page 48 lists examples of business occupancies and includes courthouses.

2292
03:26:27,020 --> 03:26:35,020
 Fire response.

2293
03:26:35,020 --> 03:26:36,380
 Let's sustain the key.

2294
03:26:36,380 --> 03:26:38,660
 Answer B is clear as stated in the text.

2295
03:26:38,660 --> 03:26:42,580
 Under this example, the text is stating that assembly occupancies utilize rooms and buildings

2296
03:26:42,580 --> 03:26:47,820
 primarily for gatherings of 50 or more for specific reasons like deliberations, worship,

2297
03:26:47,820 --> 03:26:53,100
 entertainment, eating, et cetera, and a single room or multiple rooms with occupancies 50

2298
03:26:53,100 --> 03:26:54,940
 and over each.

2299
03:26:54,940 --> 03:26:59,940
 In contrast, business occupancies are buildings or areas that are used primarily for transaction

2300
03:26:59,940 --> 03:27:02,260
 of business other than mercantile.

2301
03:27:02,260 --> 03:27:17,260
 House rooms, museums, et cetera, are not primarily used for transaction of business.

2302
03:27:17,260 --> 03:27:31,460
 I'm looking for his comment about courthouses being business occupancies.

2303
03:27:31,460 --> 03:27:37,540
 He says on page 48.

2304
03:27:37,540 --> 03:27:40,540
 Go ahead.

2305
03:27:40,540 --> 03:27:51,700
 I was just going to say the same thing.

2306
03:27:51,700 --> 03:27:53,300
 It says it on page 48.

2307
03:27:53,300 --> 03:27:54,300
 Okay.

2308
03:27:54,300 --> 03:27:55,300
 Questions of fire.

2309
03:27:55,300 --> 03:28:20,780
 I guess because it does say on page 48, why would we not consider looking at both of those?

2310
03:28:20,780 --> 03:28:26,500
 Community occupancies is the best answer that includes all of the examples.

2311
03:28:26,500 --> 03:28:31,780
 A small city might have a courthouse that only lets 20 people in, but a larger city

2312
03:28:31,780 --> 03:28:39,620
 like Denton County courthouse, a much larger assembly area.

2313
03:28:39,620 --> 03:28:41,300
 I'm sorry.

2314
03:28:41,300 --> 03:28:47,540
 The context of the question to include all examples would be.

2315
03:28:47,540 --> 03:28:54,020
 The question says courtrooms, not courthouses.

2316
03:28:54,020 --> 03:29:02,120
 So a courthouse would contain numerous courtrooms.

2317
03:29:02,120 --> 03:29:08,020
 So as long as it says courtrooms, it would be in the assembly occupancy.

2318
03:29:08,020 --> 03:29:09,500
 Correct?

2319
03:29:09,500 --> 03:29:24,860
 It also says government offices, is that not the same as a court room?

2320
03:29:24,860 --> 03:29:31,340
 But each individual office, well, museums, courtrooms, restaurants, and conference rooms

2321
03:29:31,340 --> 03:29:36,300
 are examples of.

2322
03:29:36,300 --> 03:29:40,860
 That's the question.

2323
03:29:40,860 --> 03:29:47,980
 Casey, did you have something?

2324
03:29:47,980 --> 03:29:53,980
 Yes, I was going to point out what you did about there being a difference in courtrooms

2325
03:29:53,980 --> 03:29:55,700
 and courthouses.

2326
03:29:55,700 --> 03:30:01,020
 And maybe to help a little bit on page 52, it talks about mixed occupancy.

2327
03:30:01,020 --> 03:30:04,920
 It's a multiple occupancy where the occupancies are intermingled.

2328
03:30:04,920 --> 03:30:08,320
 Each portion of the building is classified according to its use.

2329
03:30:08,320 --> 03:30:11,060
 So maybe that's where some of the confusion comes in.

2330
03:30:11,060 --> 03:30:19,740
 But it does specify museums, courtrooms, restaurants, and conference rooms as assembly, and then

2331
03:30:19,740 --> 03:30:25,580
 the government city, musel buildings, and courthouses as business.

2332
03:30:25,580 --> 03:30:33,380
 So it differs it in the book.

2333
03:30:33,380 --> 03:30:42,180
 Okay, I'm here, I was just going to Casey pretty much said what I was going to say.

2334
03:30:42,180 --> 03:30:48,660
 I mean, nowhere in the book else does it say talking about those what one, two, three,

2335
03:30:48,660 --> 03:30:55,180
 those four areas referring to anything other than assembly occupancies.

2336
03:30:55,180 --> 03:31:03,700
 So okay, anyone else?

2337
03:31:03,700 --> 03:31:09,380
 I would entertain a motion commissioners.

2338
03:31:09,380 --> 03:31:15,820
 I make a motion that we sustain the key on question 92.

2339
03:31:15,820 --> 03:31:26,020
 I'll second it then we can make the decision.

2340
03:31:26,020 --> 03:31:27,620
 Now it's in play.

2341
03:31:27,620 --> 03:31:28,620
 Discussion?

2342
03:31:28,620 --> 03:31:38,020
 No, I'm satisfied with what Casey said about the multiple occupancies within the same building.

2343
03:31:38,020 --> 03:31:44,020
 I'm fine with that.

2344
03:31:44,020 --> 03:31:48,340
 Any other discussion?

2345
03:31:48,340 --> 03:31:52,740
 All in favor of sustain the key for question 92?

2346
03:31:52,740 --> 03:31:53,740
 Say aye.

2347
03:31:53,740 --> 03:31:54,740
 Aye.

2348
03:31:54,740 --> 03:31:55,740
 Aye.

2349
03:31:55,740 --> 03:31:56,740
 Unopposed?

2350
03:31:56,740 --> 03:32:00,820
 Okay, motion carries.

2351
03:32:00,820 --> 03:32:09,500
 Well, gentlemen, Mr. Baines stole my thunder at the beginning of the meeting, but you probably

2352
03:32:09,500 --> 03:32:16,940
 have forgotten that since, if I say gentlemen, I'm sorry, Casey, folks, you've probably forgotten

2353
03:32:16,940 --> 03:32:17,940
 it by now.

2354
03:32:17,940 --> 03:32:19,620
 We've all slept since then.

2355
03:32:19,620 --> 03:32:23,460
 Oh, I'm kidding.

2356
03:32:23,460 --> 03:32:27,660
 I say this every time and I know you probably get tired of it and it's like, okay, I know

2357
03:32:27,660 --> 03:32:38,300
 it's coming, but truly, you guys, especially now, but always have done things that none

2358
03:32:38,300 --> 03:32:49,460
 of us want to do and you have spent literally hundreds of hours trying to be better in helping

2359
03:32:49,460 --> 03:32:55,660
 this community and saving our lives and in saving our property.

2360
03:32:55,660 --> 03:33:02,260
 And we as a community probably don't say thank you nearly enough that you would take the

2361
03:33:02,260 --> 03:33:06,300
 time to read all of these books and try to memorize them.

2362
03:33:06,300 --> 03:33:13,260
 And maybe you didn't get all of your appeals done today, but you're already two steps ahead

2363
03:33:13,260 --> 03:33:20,740
 because you've begun the process of being better and being a better fireman or firewoman

2364
03:33:20,740 --> 03:33:23,620
 and that is what really matters.

2365
03:33:23,620 --> 03:33:28,660
 And I just want to salute you and thank you for all you do for us when you run toward

2366
03:33:28,660 --> 03:33:31,100
 things that we're all running away from.

2367
03:33:31,100 --> 03:33:32,420
 And I mean that sincerely.

2368
03:33:32,420 --> 03:33:35,540
 I say it every time, but I still mean it.

2369
03:33:35,540 --> 03:33:38,540
 Thank you so much for all you do.

2370
03:33:38,540 --> 03:33:39,540
 Thank you.

2371
03:33:39,540 --> 03:33:40,540
 All right.

2372
03:33:40,540 --> 03:33:45,660
 Thank you all for everything, you know, sitting through this.

2373
03:33:45,660 --> 03:33:50,700
 This is my first time, so I appreciate y'all and it's been a great experience.

2374
03:33:50,700 --> 03:33:58,060
 It's been, I'm glad it's over, so I'll have y'all stay safe out there and everybody, everybody

2375
03:33:58,060 --> 03:34:01,620
 learns by doing this.

2376
03:34:01,620 --> 03:34:06,120
 All colleagues in the fire department, I'm glad this is over and I'm happy for everybody.

2377
03:34:06,120 --> 03:34:07,940
 So thank y'all.

2378
03:34:07,940 --> 03:34:09,580
 You all stay safe.

2379
03:34:09,580 --> 03:34:10,580
 Be careful.

2380
03:34:10,580 --> 03:34:11,580
 Okay.

2381
03:34:11,580 --> 03:34:12,580
 Thank you guys so much.

2382
03:34:12,580 --> 03:34:13,100
 Thank you.

2383
03:34:31,620 --> 03:35:00,100
 a minute. I'm going to read yours.

2384
03:35:00,100 --> 03:35:20,780
 Yes, sustain key, 11 sustain, 15 sustain, 17 sustain, sustain 20, withdrew the appeal,

2385
03:35:20,780 --> 03:35:37,740
 sustain the key of 32, sustain the key of 34, sustain, 42 sustain, 44 sustain, 47 A

2386
03:35:37,740 --> 03:36:02,580
 and B, 53 except A and B, sustain 54, sustain 70, sustain 70, 75, I'm sorry, sustain 81,

2387
03:36:02,580 --> 03:36:11,940
 sustain 88, sustain 91, sustain 92, okay.

2388
03:36:11,940 --> 03:36:15,700
 That way we know that we're all on the same page.

2389
03:36:15,700 --> 03:36:22,180
 Commissioners, did you hear anything different from that?

2390
03:36:22,180 --> 03:36:30,620
 Last item, last item on the agenda is to date for the next civil service commission meeting.

2391
03:36:30,620 --> 03:36:40,220
 Well, we have what, captain and bat chief appeals coming up.

2392
03:36:40,220 --> 03:36:43,380
 How many of those do we have?

2393
03:36:43,380 --> 03:36:47,980
 25 appeals for those two.

2394
03:36:47,980 --> 03:36:48,980
 Wow.

2395
03:36:48,980 --> 03:36:49,980
 Okay, combined.

2396
03:36:49,980 --> 03:36:50,980
 All right.

2397
03:36:50,980 --> 03:36:54,540
 So we have 25 appeals.

2398
03:36:54,540 --> 03:37:00,540
 So what kind of what I'm going to ask this way and then what kind of pressure are we

2399
03:37:00,540 --> 03:37:01,540
 under?

2400
03:37:01,540 --> 03:37:06,020
 Do we have some holes that we need to fill?

2401
03:37:06,020 --> 03:37:07,020
 Okay.

2402
03:37:07,020 --> 03:37:08,020
 Okay.

2403
03:37:08,020 --> 03:37:12,580
 I don't know if you heard him or not.

2404
03:37:12,580 --> 03:37:19,420
 June 19th, there will be vacancies in the captain battalion chief ranks.

2405
03:37:19,420 --> 03:37:25,060
 Therefore, we probably need to have a meeting.

2406
03:37:25,060 --> 03:37:31,420
 Oh, yeah, you.

2407
03:37:31,420 --> 03:37:38,100
 That's Mr. Chair, let me ask a question.

2408
03:37:38,100 --> 03:37:39,100
 Okay.

2409
03:37:39,100 --> 03:37:42,100
 Hang on.

2410
03:37:42,100 --> 03:37:43,420
 It impacts the date.

2411
03:37:43,420 --> 03:37:44,420
 Hang on, John.

2412
03:37:44,420 --> 03:37:50,180
 Hi, everybody.

2413
03:37:50,180 --> 03:37:53,940
 I was trying to stay off with you.

2414
03:37:53,940 --> 03:37:59,620
 So we have we need to have two meetings because we need to hear the appeals and we also need

2415
03:37:59,620 --> 03:38:01,700
 to certify the list.

2416
03:38:01,700 --> 03:38:02,780
 We're limited on our days.

2417
03:38:02,780 --> 03:38:06,220
 We can do that because we need to have it done by June 19th.

2418
03:38:06,220 --> 03:38:15,620
 So the only two days that this room is available is June 10th and June 15th.

2419
03:38:15,620 --> 03:38:19,100
 So that solves the problem, right?

2420
03:38:19,100 --> 03:38:24,180
 If y'all are all three available, yes, it does.

2421
03:38:24,180 --> 03:38:32,420
 Was everybody available on the 10th and 15th, but especially, I mean, we could do a zoom

2422
03:38:32,420 --> 03:38:34,020
 if we had to, couldn't we?

2423
03:38:34,020 --> 03:38:38,420
 No, it has to be public.

2424
03:38:38,420 --> 03:38:43,580
 Yeah, but I mean, we could do just the three of us zoom.

2425
03:38:43,580 --> 03:38:50,940
 We wouldn't have to do must see TV, right?

2426
03:38:50,940 --> 03:39:00,540
 Okay, because it's a public meeting, we have to do the zoom.

2427
03:39:00,540 --> 03:39:03,220
 We have to do the TV and everything.

2428
03:39:03,220 --> 03:39:05,660
 So all right.

2429
03:39:05,660 --> 03:39:10,940
 What's your availability on the 10th and the 15th?

2430
03:39:10,940 --> 03:39:22,700
 Let me get my calendar and make sure all of this is like 25 appeals means we're probably

2431
03:39:22,700 --> 03:39:33,820
 need two hours to an hour and a half hours.

2432
03:39:33,820 --> 03:39:35,900
 They know better.

2433
03:39:35,900 --> 03:39:36,900
 Three hours.

2434
03:39:36,900 --> 03:39:38,900
 All right.

2435
03:39:38,900 --> 03:39:52,900
 So we need three hours.

2436
03:39:52,900 --> 03:39:59,000
 Okay, maybe we can do that the day we approve the list.

2437
03:39:59,000 --> 03:40:04,900
 If we made on the 10th for the appeals, 15th, we approve the list when we have some, when

2438
03:40:04,900 --> 03:40:15,540
 we have time to do that discussion.

2439
03:40:15,540 --> 03:40:18,260
 Okay.

2440
03:40:18,260 --> 03:40:24,660
 She's talking about another meeting in July also, and that's, I mean, that's okay.

2441
03:40:24,660 --> 03:40:28,540
 At present, I have no commitments on either day.

2442
03:40:28,540 --> 03:40:35,380
 The only question I have is let's try to get an idea of what kind of time commitment we're

2443
03:40:35,380 --> 03:40:42,340
 looking at so I can kind of preempt any future attempts to take my time away from civil service

2444
03:40:42,340 --> 03:40:45,300
 commission.

2445
03:40:45,300 --> 03:40:51,780
 We're looking probably at three hours on the 10th for the appeals.

2446
03:40:51,780 --> 03:40:56,420
 All the appeals would be on the 10th and then the certification would be on the 15th.

2447
03:40:56,420 --> 03:40:58,920
 It has to be on the 15th.

2448
03:40:58,920 --> 03:41:12,460
 We will also, I assume we'll approve the certification list of today's meeting of the 10th and then

2449
03:41:12,460 --> 03:41:18,820
 the 15th will just be for the battalion chief and the captains.

2450
03:41:18,820 --> 03:41:21,900
 So we need, let's say three hours.

2451
03:41:21,900 --> 03:41:24,060
 On the 10th or on the 15th?

2452
03:41:24,060 --> 03:41:33,060
 Okay, three hours, okay, okay.

2453
03:41:33,060 --> 03:41:35,740
 Any particular hour?

2454
03:41:35,740 --> 03:41:41,820
 Strike your fancy, let's do it in the afternoon.

2455
03:41:41,820 --> 03:41:44,260
 Yes, ma'am.

2456
03:41:44,260 --> 03:41:47,660
 Are you asking permission or just exercising?

2457
03:41:47,660 --> 03:41:51,780
 Oh no, I was counting the hours.

2458
03:41:51,780 --> 03:41:59,140
 If we started at nine, would you like afternoon better?

2459
03:41:59,140 --> 03:42:00,140
 We could do nine.

2460
03:42:00,140 --> 03:42:01,140
 We can knock it out.

2461
03:42:01,140 --> 03:42:02,140
 How about you?

2462
03:42:02,140 --> 03:42:04,340
 Nine's fine with me.

2463
03:42:04,340 --> 03:42:05,340
 Okay.

2464
03:42:05,340 --> 03:42:13,180
 So let's say nine to noon on the 10th of June.

2465
03:42:13,180 --> 03:42:15,820
 Okay.

2466
03:42:15,820 --> 03:42:21,220
 Then the 15th, we will decide on the time or do we need to set a time so you can reserve

2467
03:42:21,220 --> 03:42:22,840
 the room?

2468
03:42:22,840 --> 03:42:27,700
 I'm asking my room observers.

2469
03:42:27,700 --> 03:42:31,860
 Can we go ahead and set a time on the 15th then?

2470
03:42:31,860 --> 03:42:37,380
 That one would probably be a relatively short meeting, I'm thinking.

2471
03:42:37,380 --> 03:42:46,780
 So maybe let's say an hour just to, we probably will need five minutes, but you never know.

2472
03:42:46,780 --> 03:42:51,740
 That's a Monday, so let's do 10.

2473
03:42:51,740 --> 03:43:01,180
 Mondays are a little hard for me, so I could probably do a little later if you don't mind.

2474
03:43:01,180 --> 03:43:02,860
 How much is, like an hour later?

2475
03:43:02,860 --> 03:43:03,860
 Would 11 work?

2476
03:43:03,860 --> 03:43:11,460
 Yeah, 11 would give me a chance to deal with all the fires that we have to deal with on

2477
03:43:11,460 --> 03:43:12,460
 Monday mornings.

2478
03:43:12,460 --> 03:43:13,460
 Bad, bad.

2479
03:43:13,460 --> 03:43:14,460
 How about 11?

2480
03:43:14,460 --> 03:43:18,500
 Lillian, does that work for you?

2481
03:43:18,500 --> 03:43:20,780
 Yeah, that's fine.

2482
03:43:20,780 --> 03:43:22,120
 All right.

2483
03:43:22,120 --> 03:43:28,220
 So we're doing nine o'clock on the 10th and 11 o'clock on the 15th.

2484
03:43:28,220 --> 03:43:30,740
 That way they can get the room reserved.

2485
03:43:30,740 --> 03:43:34,140
 All right.

2486
03:43:34,140 --> 03:43:40,260
 Yes, ma'am.

2487
03:43:40,260 --> 03:43:55,860
 Okay, Stephanie's asking about the July date for the civil service rules discussion.

2488
03:43:55,860 --> 03:43:57,860
 So back to the calendars.

2489
03:43:57,860 --> 03:44:00,260
 Well, do we need to check?

2490
03:44:00,260 --> 03:44:04,740
 We probably need to check availability of this room or in room like it.

2491
03:44:04,740 --> 03:44:07,420
 Is that true?

2492
03:44:07,420 --> 03:44:17,540
 No, when you say the rules, is that what we're alluding to today as far as kind of maybe

2493
03:44:17,540 --> 03:44:21,060
 some revising of how we approach things?

2494
03:44:21,060 --> 03:44:24,620
 Stephanie, they can't hear you.

2495
03:44:24,620 --> 03:44:39,020
 You're on mute.

2496
03:44:39,020 --> 03:44:47,860
 Okay.

2497
03:44:47,860 --> 03:44:48,860
 What she just said.

2498
03:44:48,860 --> 03:44:54,940
 We're going to cut the feed.