WEBVTT

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Okay, it's six o'clock.

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We're up three minutes past the start time.

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I would like to propose if the board is willing, if we wait

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an additional 10 to 15 minutes

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to see if our last member will show up and if by 615 he

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doesn't, I'd say we could see

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about calling the meeting or at least shattering it if we

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don't have more room.

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Does that seem reasonable to the board?

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Did we put in back what you gave hope of them?

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Unfortunately, we didn't.

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Is it possible to have any kind of a discussion, aspects to

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it, but not take it to a vote?

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Okay.

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So I take it you weren't able to get a hold of the

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microphone?

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Unfortunately, I wasn't able to.

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End of day.

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Sorry about that.

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Okay.

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After determining that a quorum is present, I hereby call

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this meeting of the City of

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Denton Zoning Board of Adjustment in session.

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The Zoning Board of Adjustment of the City of Denton of

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Texas will convene in the first

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of two regular meetings at 615 p.m.

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The second regular meeting is scheduled to convene at 630 p

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.m.

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Item number one on our agenda is the U.S. and Texas Pledge

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of Allegiance.

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of

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America and to the republic for

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which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with

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liberty and justice for all.

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Now for the Texas Pledge.

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Honor to the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the Texas,

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one state, under God, one, indivisible.

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My name is Connor Hall.

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I am the chair of the Zoning Board of Adjustment of the

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City of Denton for this evening's meeting.

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Prior to commencing our hearings, I would like to review

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our meeting format for the benefit of those in attendance.

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The board consists of seven regular members and three

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alternates.

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The members of the Zoning Board of Adjustment are residents

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of the City of Denton.

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We serve voluntarily and have been appointed to our

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position by the city council.

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It takes six votes to reverse or modify any determination

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of an administrative official on appeal.

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Citizens wishing to participate may submit a white card to

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indicate their position on an item.

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Citizens may also make virtual comments using the e-comment

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module made available when the agenda was posted online.

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Similar to when a citizen submits a white card to indicate

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their position on an item,

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the e-comments will be sent directly to members of the Z

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oning Board of Adjustment and recorded by the secretary.

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E-comments may be submitted up until the start of the

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meeting, at which the time the ability to make an e-comment

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will be closed.

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Citizens wishing to speak may submit a blue card.

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All speakers are to state their name and address for the

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record.

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In consideration of other speakers, comments will be

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limited to four minutes unless otherwise specified by the

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chair and information relevant to our agenda items.

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We will now commence with our regularly scheduled agenda.

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Item number 2A, consider the approval of the April 6, 2026

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minutes.

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Each member of the board has been provided with a copy of

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these minutes.

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Are there any corrections, additions, or deletions to these

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minutes?

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Okay, hearing none, the chair would entertain a motion on

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item number 2B.

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I motion to have a second of minutes.

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Okay.

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I make a second.

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Okay.

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Excellent.

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Having received a motion for a second, is there any further

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discussion on the minutes from last meeting?

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Okay.

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There being no further discussion, please vote on the

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motion.

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All in favor of approving the minutes as presented, raise

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your hands and say aye.

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Aye.

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Aye.

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Okay.

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The ayes have it.

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So the results of the vote are six in favor and zero

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against.

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The minutes are approved.

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Now for item number 2B, receive a report and hold a

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discussion regarding non-conforming rights.

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The discussion will include but is not limited to the state

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statutes and local regulations, types of non-conformities,

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and process related to the discontinuities.

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And in the interest of time.

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I love how ready you are.

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Good evening.

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I'm Julie Wyatt, principal planner with the city of Denton.

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And we're going to talk a little bit about non-conforming

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rights tonight.

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So generally a non-conformity is a land use or structure

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that was lawfully established but no longer meets the

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current zoning or development standards.

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So for example, a building was built decades ago and at the

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time it met the setback in the new standards.

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But since then regulations have changed and so it no longer

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meets those standards.

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What is the purpose of non-conforming regulations?

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The debt development code in section 1.5.1 talks about this

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and the reasons that it gives are to curtail substantial

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investment in non-conformities.

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To bring about their eventual elimination and then preserve

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the integrity of the debt development code in the goals of

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the city of Denton.

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Now we're going to talk briefly about state law as it

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relates to non-conforming rights.

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So the Texas Local Government Code has two sections that

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deal with non-conforming rights within the state of Texas.

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Section 2.11 talks about that a municipality has two

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options when it comes to non-conforming uses.

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First, it can allow the non-conforming use to continue in

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the same manner.

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And the second option is to require a non-conforming use to

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cease operation.

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Now there's a really specific process related to this.

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It requires an official action, specific timelines,

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notification.

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And then there is a payment to an owner or lessee for loss

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of market value or expenses or allow that use to continue

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until those costs have been recovered.

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It is important to note that this does not apply to non-con

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forming uses that have been intentionally abandoned for at

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least six months.

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Section 43 talks about non-conforming rights when they are

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applied to annexation.

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So annex property, a municipality must allow the

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continuation of a use that was legally existing or planned

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to occur prior to annexation.

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And that is subject to some limitations.

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But that does not prohibit a municipality from imposing

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regulations relating to SOBs and destruction, public nuis

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ances, flood control, hazardous substances, or fireworks.

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Aside from certain retail uses, this section of state law

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does not specify a timeframe for how long a municipality

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must allow a use to continue.

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Now, after state law, we're going to talk about the

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regulations and the DENT Development Code.

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So all of our regulations related to non-conforming rights

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are outlined in Section 1.5.

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As I mentioned at the top of the presentation,

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DDC 1.5.1 discusses that non-conforming uses are regulated

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in order to limit the development and continued existence

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of land building structures, uses, and site features,

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which once again were lawfully established prior to the

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effective date, but are no longer conformed to the DENT

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Development Code.

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There are general regulations related to non-conforming

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uses.

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Generally, a non-conforming use can continue or a non-con

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formity can continue to be used and occupied, but there are

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limitations in the DENT Development Code.

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We allow minor maintenance and repairs.

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So you can repair the roof, you can repair the plumbing,

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restripe the parking, or replace landscaping.

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But the degree of non-conforming cannot be increased by any

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action.

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And this really is related to the land use in the land.

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So changes in ownership, tenant management does not change

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the non-conforming regulations as they apply to the

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property.

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The DENT Development Code identifies four types of non-con

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formities.

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First, a non-conforming use that is in the use of the land,

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again established legally, but no longer conforms to the

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zoning.

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For example, somebody builds a gas station along a rural

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road.

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But now it's in the middle of a residential neighborhood.

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So there are limitations to that continuation of use.

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It may be expanded throughout the same building, provided

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that no structural alterations, additional dwelling units,

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or non-residential units shall be permitted.

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And it may not expand into an additional structure.

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The use can change to a lesser impact non-conforming use,

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but once it's changed to another non-conforming use, it can

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't go backwards.

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There's also non-conforming structure.

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That's any structure that was established or constructed

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legally, but no longer conforms to the DENT Development

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Code.

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This is things like setbacks, like a building that doesn't

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need a 10-foot setback, where it's too close to the road.

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Expansions require that any new portion of the structure

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conform to current regulations.

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So you couldn't continue to add in that area that encro

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aches into the setback.

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A non-conforming lot, a lot that is legally established

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prior to current regulations, but does not comply with

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crime zoning dimensional standards.

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So you have a 9,000 square foot lot, flat in 1970, but it's

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now suburban corridor.

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So it doesn't meet the minimum lot size of 10,000 square

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feet.

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Now, the DENT Development Code does discuss that a lot made

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non-conforming by the 2019 DENT Development Code may be

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used for construction of a building in the applicable

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zoning district,

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but it still has to meet all those dimensional requirements

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.

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So even though it might be a smaller lot, it still has to

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meet all building coverage and setback requirements.

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And then finally, the fourth one is a non-conforming site

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feature.

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These are things like driveways, off-street parking,

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loading areas, building coverage, landscape buffer, or

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screening.

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So all of those other things that go into making up a site.

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Once again, legally established, but now no longer meets

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the minimum regulations.

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So for instance, a building built in 1995 has 200 parking

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spaces.

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We didn't have parking maximums at the time.

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Now the parking regulations would only allow 100 spaces.

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So that would be a non-conforming site feature.

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Now that can continue.

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They can remain in place.

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But any expansions would have to conform to the DENT

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Development Code.

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So they couldn't add additional parking spaces.

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Does that make sense?

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All right.

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So this is where it gets a little more complicated.

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Discontinuance.

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So if a non-conforming user structure is voluntarily

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discontinued for one year or more,

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the DENT Development Code states that all non-conforming

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rights cease,

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and the user occupancy cannot be continued unless in

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conformance with the DENT Development Code.

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So one year, and then those non-conforming rights will

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cease.

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However, that determination of discontinued status may be

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delayed for up to one year by the director if a written

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request is provided,

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and that there is a documentation that the property has

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been actively marketed for at least six months during the

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previous year.

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So it was listed for sale for that use, or it was trying to

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obtain a tenant for that use.

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And so I've created a diagram.

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Hopefully it will better describe it.

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So day one, non-conforming use ceases.

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So the tenant moves out of the building day one.

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Day 10, in this hypothetical, the property owner markets

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the property for lease or sale.

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After six months and 10 days, the property owner ceases to

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market, ceases marketing the property.

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It's like, "Ah, I'm not going to market anymore."

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Prior to that one-year mark, the owner requests

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determination, delay, and writing.

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At that point, the director can approve that one-year delay

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in determination of discontinued status if the property

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owner adequately provides that written request and the

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documentation.

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From there, they have another calendar year to either re

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establish the use or the non-conforming rights will cease.

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So is that clear?

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It can get a little confusing because it does give an extra

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year if the property had been marketed for at least six

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months during that first year of the use of CXA.

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Discontinuance due to damage or destruction, and this is a

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natural or accidental cause.

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If less than 50% of the gross floor area is damaged or

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destroyed, it can be restored in the original condition.

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However, anything over 50%, it could not be rebuilt or

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occupied.

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Then the DIP Development Code also has amortization.

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That's where city council could say, "Hey, property owner,

00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.610
we are giving a formal action that you are to cease

00:14:37.610 --> 00:14:38.799
operations,

00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:42.429
but then you have to amortize that non-conforming structure

00:14:42.429 --> 00:14:42.799
."

00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:48.299
So allow them to continue until that market value has been

00:14:48.299 --> 00:14:51.799
provided to that property owner.

00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:55.210
The DPA would be responsible for setting a plan for

00:14:55.210 --> 00:14:59.799
compensation and/or establishing a determination timeline.

00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:03.409
Again, state law has those additional requirements, things

00:15:03.409 --> 00:15:06.799
like notification time and the types of compensation.

00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.799
So it's a pretty tricky business.

00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:13.090
Then there are other options for property owners when it

00:15:13.090 --> 00:15:14.799
comes to non-conforming.

00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:17.750
First, they could seek approval of a subdivision for

00:15:17.750 --> 00:15:20.799
variance from the Planning and Zoning Commission.

00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:23.340
So say it doesn't meet the minimum setbacks, they could

00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:28.799
request from the Planning and Zoning Commission a lot size.

00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:32.720
They could request a variance from the Planning and Zoning

00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:33.799
Commission.

00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:36.860
They could also seek a variance from the Zoning Board of

00:15:36.860 --> 00:15:37.799
Adjustment.

00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.799
Now that is not for use. There is no variance for use.

00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:44.519
But they could seek a variance for something other than use

00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:44.799
.

00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:48.070
A non-conforming could be modified to come into compliance

00:15:48.070 --> 00:15:51.799
with the DIP Development Code and become conforming.

00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.879
Or the property could be rezoned to a district that permits

00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:56.799
the use or has different standards.

00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:00.899
Or the 2019 Development Code has plan development, so a

00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:04.370
property owner could seek a plan development, particularly

00:16:04.370 --> 00:16:07.730
if their use is very unique or their site conditions are

00:16:07.730 --> 00:16:08.799
very unique.

00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:13.799
So with that, I'll be happy to answer any questions.

00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:15.799
And that's the presentation.

00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:19.159
Would you go back to your chart where you were saying yes,

00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:19.799
that is?

00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:20.799
Yes.

00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:26.590
Okay. So non-conforming use happens, whatever reason it

00:16:26.590 --> 00:16:27.799
happens.

00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:31.049
They're marketing it. As long as they market it for six

00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:33.799
months, doesn't matter when it starts.

00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.960
Like in your example, it was day 10, but maybe they don't

00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:39.799
start until month five.

00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:42.799
As long as it's six months within that first year.

00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:43.799
Okay.

00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.799
So yes, they could. You're right. Anytime during that year.

00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:47.799
Okay.

00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:52.090
All right. And then they have to request it in writing for

00:16:52.090 --> 00:16:57.799
an additional year, which would be 364 days from day one.

00:16:57.799 --> 00:17:00.799
It would be a year plus.

00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:01.799
Yes.

00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:03.799
Okay.

00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:08.029
The day it seizes, 12 months in writing whenever within

00:17:08.029 --> 00:17:09.799
their 12 months.

00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:10.799
12 months.

00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:11.799
Correct.

00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:12.799
Correct.

00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:16.880
And remember, during that, with that request in writing,

00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:20.799
they do have to provide that evidence that the property was

00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:21.799
marketed.

00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.799
Okay. Thank you.

00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.799
Any other questions for our presenter?

00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:30.799
Do you have?

00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:31.799
No.

00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:33.799
All right. Thank you for coming up to present.

00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:34.799
Thank you.

00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:36.799
All right.

00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.950
In the interest of time, I will swear in all witnesses for

00:17:39.950 --> 00:17:42.980
the public hearings, the variance and appeal that are

00:17:42.980 --> 00:17:44.799
scheduled for today's meeting.

00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:49.750
Will all witnesses who will provide testimony or

00:17:49.750 --> 00:17:55.759
information at today's meeting, please stand up and raise

00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:57.799
your right hand.

00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:01.079
Under penalty of pre-jury, do you swear or affirm that any

00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:04.420
testimony or information you provide or any statement you

00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:07.799
make before this board is complete, true, and correct to

00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:09.799
the best of your knowledge and ability?

00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:11.799
If so, please answer, I do.

00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:12.799
I do.

00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:13.799
Okay.

00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:17.779
Is there any witness who was unable or unwilling to take

00:18:17.779 --> 00:18:18.799
this oath?

00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:19.799
Okay.

00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.799
Seeing none, I feel free to pass the.

00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:25.809
In order to ensure an orderly meeting, the hearing

00:18:25.809 --> 00:18:28.799
procedure for each variance will be as follows.

00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:32.140
No person shall speak unless they are recognized by the

00:18:32.140 --> 00:18:35.799
chair to speak and then shall only speak from the podium.

00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:39.799
First, the city's presentation questions for the board.

00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:44.799
Next, applicant presentation and questions for the board.

00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.769
Then after the parties have finished their presentations,

00:18:48.769 --> 00:18:51.799
members of the public may speak on the item.

00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:55.869
And finally, the board may ask any follow up questions of

00:18:55.869 --> 00:18:59.859
staff or applicant that were raised by the public and not

00:18:59.859 --> 00:19:01.799
previously answered.

00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:06.750
At that conclusion of the evidence, I will close the public

00:19:06.750 --> 00:19:07.799
hearing.

00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:13.380
So moving on to item number 3A is to hold a public hearing

00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:17.539
and consider approval of the variance from Chapter 33 signs

00:19:17.539 --> 00:19:20.799
and advertising devices of the code of ordinances.

00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:26.400
Specifically, section 33.14.2C as it relates to the minimum

00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.799
setback from the side yard property line.

00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.099
To allow for a sign with a side yard setback of

00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:35.259
approximately 3 feet and 7 meters from the existing gas

00:19:35.259 --> 00:19:35.799
station.

00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:40.609
Located on an approximately .23 acre property on the south

00:19:40.609 --> 00:19:45.079
side of Eagle Drive and approximately 235 feet west of

00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:46.799
Cleveland Street.

00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.940
The union board, the map of the assistant planner, here to

00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:53.799
present the Texas Code of Sign Variance.

00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:57.140
I will give them some background, go over the variance

00:19:57.140 --> 00:20:02.150
requests and then each of the criteria for approval that

00:20:02.150 --> 00:20:05.799
are assessed during approval of the variance.

00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:07.799
So to give them some background.

00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.160
So this sign variance is for an existing sign with the gas

00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:16.619
station on Eagle Drive seen in the picture on the top there

00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:17.799
on the screen.

00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:22.009
So how we got here, so the property owner recently removed

00:20:22.009 --> 00:20:26.019
a pole sign that's shown in the picture at the bottom on

00:20:26.019 --> 00:20:26.799
the site.

00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.559
And then placed the current monument sign in roughly the

00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:31.799
same location.

00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:35.549
To clarify, at this time they did not have the final

00:20:35.549 --> 00:20:40.559
permits, they did submit an application but failed the

00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:45.799
final inspection because they were in need of a variance.

00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:49.880
So in order to keep the sign where it is, they submitted a

00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:53.980
variance request from the minimum setback from the side

00:20:53.980 --> 00:20:55.799
yard property line.

00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.049
So the sign code requires that all freestanding signs be at

00:21:00.049 --> 00:21:03.799
least 10 feet from that side property line.

00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:08.569
This existing sign is about 3 feet 7 inches from that

00:21:08.569 --> 00:21:13.750
property line so they're requesting a setback difference of

00:21:13.750 --> 00:21:15.799
6 feet 5 inches.

00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:19.519
This is the only request especially with the signs that do

00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.799
need all other sign standards.

00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:25.950
So to go to the criteria for approval of the variance, the

00:21:25.950 --> 00:21:29.119
first one being that due to some unique condition of the

00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.430
property, literal compliance with the sign code would cause

00:21:33.430 --> 00:21:34.799
unnecessary hardship.

00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:39.140
So in this case, literal compliance would require the sign

00:21:39.140 --> 00:21:43.109
be moved into the middle of a driveway as kind of shown in

00:21:43.109 --> 00:21:44.799
this graph up here.

00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.799
This creates a clear safety hazard.

00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:51.799
For the applicant, the current location of the sign is

00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:56.059
really the only practical location this time could be that

00:21:56.059 --> 00:21:59.980
doesn't create a safety hazard without in turn requiring

00:21:59.980 --> 00:22:05.049
major redevelopment or renovation of the site, which would

00:22:05.049 --> 00:22:07.799
be an unnecessary hardship.

00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:12.490
Now while SAF certainly does find that to be an unnecessary

00:22:12.490 --> 00:22:17.279
hardship, the location of said drive-about being so close

00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:21.180
and thus requiring the sign, thus leading the sign to be

00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:24.799
where it is, is not necessarily a unique condition.

00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:29.039
While it is in the style of older development patterns have

00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.200
nearly the entire site paved over and would not be allowed

00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.269
if the site were to redevelop today, regardless of that

00:22:37.269 --> 00:22:40.910
type of site properly setback, it is the style of

00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:43.799
development that we do see throughout the city in just

00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:47.799
older developments, so not necessarily unique.

00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.329
The second criteria being that the granting of the variance

00:22:51.329 --> 00:22:55.019
will not violate the spirit or intent of the ordinance. SAF

00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:58.730
finds that this variance would preserve the spirit of the

00:22:58.730 --> 00:23:02.500
sign code, particularly in that it's there to promote the

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:08.799
safety of the city's inhabitants by avoiding the sign

00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:12.690
becoming a safety hazard if it were to be placed in literal

00:23:12.690 --> 00:23:15.799
compliance with the sign code.

00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:20.910
The third criteria that the condition was not the result of

00:23:20.910 --> 00:23:26.650
the property and its actions. Based on tenure records, this

00:23:26.650 --> 00:23:32.160
site and its current layout was developed approximately in

00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:38.799
1975, so well before the current owner purchased the site.

00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.599
Fourth, the board shall not grant a variance of any outcome

00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:47.069
solely for reasons unrelated to the property. This variance

00:23:47.069 --> 00:23:52.150
is due to conditions of that site location of that drywall

00:23:52.150 --> 00:23:57.259
causing the safety hazard and is therefore not solely for

00:23:57.259 --> 00:24:00.799
reasons unrelated to the property.

00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:05.430
So on to staff recommendation. So due to the site layout

00:24:05.430 --> 00:24:09.970
and the location of that drywall not necessarily being a

00:24:09.970 --> 00:24:14.700
unique condition, we can't say, staff does not find that

00:24:14.700 --> 00:24:19.710
all the criteria are strictly met, however staff does have

00:24:19.710 --> 00:24:24.029
no objection should the board find that this request does

00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:26.799
meet the spirit of intent of the sign code.

00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:31.029
And then just to remind you practically, if the sign

00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:35.829
variance is granted, the sign would be permitted to stay at

00:24:35.829 --> 00:24:40.630
the current location, if denied, the sign would have to be

00:24:40.630 --> 00:24:41.799
removed.

00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:57.299
Okay, thank you. So before we get into the questions, the

00:24:57.299 --> 00:24:58.039
matter for the board is whether to grant a variance in city

00:24:58.039 --> 00:24:58.819
's development code regulations regarding the unlock that I

00:24:58.819 --> 00:24:59.500
now open the public hearing all witnesses for this case

00:24:59.500 --> 00:25:04.799
have been previously sworn.

00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:11.799
Do any board members have any questions for city staff?

00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:16.829
I want to go back one slide where you state that if it's

00:25:16.829 --> 00:25:22.450
denied, the sign is going to have to be removed. Based on

00:25:22.450 --> 00:25:28.180
all that, what with the removal being required, you would

00:25:28.180 --> 00:25:33.799
then require them to place their sign at the 10 foot set

00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:35.799
back from the site.

00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:43.079
Or where else are you suggesting any sign being located? My

00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:50.410
impression, it may be wrong, but if you remove the sign,

00:25:50.410 --> 00:25:57.980
you are removing an aspect of the business performing its

00:25:57.980 --> 00:26:00.799
duties as a business.

00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:06.359
So if I understood correctly, you're wondering if the sign

00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:12.240
would be removed, where could it be placed? In that case,

00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:18.119
it would still have to stay out of drive-outs, so there's a

00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:24.359
reasonable probability that they could have this particular

00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:26.799
sign on the property.

00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:31.089
If you went to the slide that has the picture of the

00:26:31.089 --> 00:26:36.650
property per se, the instance here was we don't have the 10

00:26:36.650 --> 00:26:41.690
foot setback from the side, what is the requirement from

00:26:41.690 --> 00:26:46.869
the front, from your street? Is there a possibility the

00:26:46.869 --> 00:26:51.339
sign could be relocated in that position, or how much would

00:26:51.339 --> 00:26:55.799
that impact drive and therefore safety?

00:26:55.799 --> 00:27:00.220
So the front setback is 20 feet from the curb, which is

00:27:00.220 --> 00:27:04.579
currently based on a survey, and then extracted a little

00:27:04.579 --> 00:27:12.309
bit from it. It does meet that front setback, it's about 21

00:27:12.309 --> 00:27:16.799
feet away from the current curb. So as you just have to.

00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:21.339
So therefore, from what I'm seeing on there, it would mean

00:27:21.339 --> 00:27:25.410
that the sign would have to be, quote, "up on a pole,

00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:30.230
visible, perhaps, adjacently attached to what is the canopy

00:27:30.230 --> 00:27:39.799
that goes over the pumps." Correct?

00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:43.670
That would be another decision. We have selected, there are

00:27:43.670 --> 00:27:46.880
multiple signs, so they had a separate sign that was

00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:50.910
approved and finaled that's on the canopy. That's different

00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:52.799
from this sign in question.

00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.799
Okay.

00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:01.450
Yes, I have a question regarding the signage itself. Are

00:28:01.450 --> 00:28:06.430
monument signs showing locations of businesses now

00:28:06.430 --> 00:28:11.859
preferred over signs that are on elevated poles, or does

00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:15.799
the city not really carry either way?

00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:18.970
We would just have to make sure it meets the height

00:28:18.970 --> 00:28:22.799
limitations, whether it's on a pole or in a monument.

00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:28.079
Sure, we'll. Was it non-conforming just due to position or

00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:29.799
for the type of sign that it was?

00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:33.240
So this, are you referring to the previous? Yeah, the

00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.869
previous. The previous sign was non-conforming for location

00:28:36.869 --> 00:28:38.799
and height. Okay.

00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.789
So this one is just location. Okay. So, and I guess, I don

00:28:42.789 --> 00:28:46.579
't know if it would be a better question for the applicant,

00:28:46.579 --> 00:28:50.000
but were they replacing the sign to become more incon

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:53.799
forming with the height, or was the old sign this?

00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:59.619
So it is considered a new sign, so, because the old sign

00:28:59.619 --> 00:29:03.799
was new. I guess it's up to the board.

00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:06.970
Okay. So this new sign is more inconforming with the

00:29:06.970 --> 00:29:10.799
current deep, didn't develop a code than the previous one.

00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.799
If, like, how it is current.

00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:17.799
Correct.

00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:21.029
You said there is another sign on the canopy itself. Yeah,

00:29:21.029 --> 00:29:22.799
it's on the picture. Yes.

00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.799
Oh, yeah.

00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:34.799
The circle one. The circle logo. Yeah, that's when you're

00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:34.799
driving by, you have to turn your neck to see it.

00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:36.799
Oh, yes, Member Ronsky.

00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:40.859
Well, if you're referring to the, quote, Texaco circle sign

00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:45.359
, that's just their logo. It doesn't address the issue of

00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:49.789
the gas prices, which is, I think, what this, both the old

00:29:49.789 --> 00:29:52.799
and current sign are trying to do.

00:29:52.799 --> 00:30:06.799
And if they removed a legal, but not conforming, whole sign

00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:14.029
, and placed the monument in the same location, I'm looking

00:30:14.029 --> 00:30:18.799
at that as saying that the whole issue is, they didn't

00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.799
address, somebody told them, hey, this doesn't conform.

00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:25.480
You need to go to Exit X, and they took it under advisement

00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:29.380
, put it in, but they went, oops, and didn't put up a permit

00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:34.720
. So is it perhaps a case of asking forgiveness, which is

00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:40.799
what we're doing right now, by allowing a variance?

00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:50.799
Yes.

00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:53.170
So, given the location, does it meet the setbacks? The city

00:30:53.170 --> 00:30:55.799
would not have been able to issue a permit for this sign.

00:30:55.799 --> 00:31:00.329
You're correct that it's less non-conforming, and that they

00:31:00.329 --> 00:31:04.809
addressed the height issue, but the location would never be

00:31:04.809 --> 00:31:06.799
able to be permitted.

00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:10.160
So they could seek to put that sign anywhere else on the

00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:13.960
property that meets setbacks. They could move the pricing

00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:17.829
to the canopy, for example, or other locations, but that's

00:31:17.829 --> 00:31:21.019
not for staff to tell them where to put the sign on the

00:31:21.019 --> 00:31:22.220
side. It's to tell them, here's the sandbox you can play

00:31:22.220 --> 00:31:22.690
with, and it needs to fit with it there to get a permit for

00:31:22.690 --> 00:31:22.799
it.

00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:30.900
So then what I'm hearing or understanding is, okay, what

00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:39.799
was non-conforming, although legal, about the pole sign?

00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:43.799
The fact of the setback, or the fact of the height?

00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.960
To be clear, we have no proof to my knowledge of the

00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:50.650
original permit to know that it was ever permitted to begin

00:31:50.650 --> 00:31:54.609
with. The sign that was previously there was non-conforming

00:31:54.609 --> 00:31:56.799
to both height and location.

00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.849
But either the sign code does not allow you to replace a

00:32:00.849 --> 00:32:02.799
non-conforming sign.

00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:09.009
So if rather than replacing it, if there is just a way to

00:32:09.009 --> 00:32:15.630
quote "upgrade it" to the new technology without changing

00:32:15.630 --> 00:32:18.029
anything else. Had the structure of the sign been left in

00:32:18.029 --> 00:32:18.359
place, they perhaps could have refaced it if they had been

00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:18.670
able to show that it had been damaged or something, and

00:32:18.670 --> 00:32:20.799
only replaced the face of the sign.

00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:23.099
I believe there is an allowance for on the code that they

00:32:23.099 --> 00:32:25.400
have removed the structure of the sign so you cannot put

00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:28.039
the sign back in that location to get a permit for it. It's

00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:29.799
not a variance being granted.

00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:33.170
You know, I understand the change in the structure. I was

00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:37.740
just kind of wondering what all factors make corporate or

00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:42.410
whoever take it into consideration and looked at in this,

00:32:42.410 --> 00:32:47.039
and whether or not all of those variances were available

00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.799
for corporate in order to do their decision.

00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:53.819
Sure, to be fair, the criteria for you all were not

00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:57.500
necessarily corporate business related decisions, but the

00:32:57.500 --> 00:33:00.799
hardship criteria, I don't mind if you say, Paul.

00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:04.289
So there was, my understanding is there was a variance

00:33:04.289 --> 00:33:10.750
request submitted. It just wasn't processed when the sign

00:33:10.750 --> 00:33:12.799
was in place?

00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:18.529
I guess, as some clarification, so you did find the permit

00:33:18.529 --> 00:33:24.710
for the previous sign, it was permanent in 19. This is a

00:33:24.710 --> 00:33:31.799
new sign, so any conformity rights don't necessarily apply.

00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:36.230
So this, and then I guess the answer, could you say your

00:33:36.230 --> 00:33:37.799
question again? Sorry.

00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:42.099
I thought I heard that there was a, like a permit, a

00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:46.799
variance submitted and just not approved by the time the

00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:48.799
sign was installed.

00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:53.519
For this sign, they submitted applications, signed permit

00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.799
applications, no permit was finaled.

00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:59.799
So it was for the permit, not a variance to the code?

00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:02.799
Correct.

00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:08.250
By sure, do you have a question? Yeah, so just timeline of

00:34:08.250 --> 00:34:11.409
this, there was the permit that was not approved and it

00:34:11.409 --> 00:34:15.800
wasn't, how long ago was that permit made?

00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:24.570
I have it back here. So the city received applications for

00:34:24.570 --> 00:34:34.550
the sign permit of July 2025, and then this variance was

00:34:34.550 --> 00:34:36.800
submitted.

00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:46.800
I'm trying to remember. It was the beginning of June,

00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:46.800
sometime this year.

00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:50.800
And then how long has that sign been up? The new one?

00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:54.800
Can't say for sure, definitely in the last year.

00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:55.800
Okay.

00:34:55.800 --> 00:35:04.800
I don't know.

00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:11.800
Are there any other questions for our presenter?

00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:16.650
Will the applicant please present any evidence or arguments

00:35:16.650 --> 00:35:18.800
to support the request?

00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:28.800
Thank you for coming up to present Mr. Wheatley.

00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:42.800
Thank you, Mr. Board. As you can see, pretty much my

00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:42.800
presentation is pretty even.

00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:49.699
On my branch code, branch request that I'm asking for, it

00:35:49.699 --> 00:35:57.010
doesn't need the requirements, the setback, the prompt set

00:35:57.010 --> 00:36:03.800
back or the site setback, adjacent to the next property.

00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:08.829
As you can see in this picture, the old original sign was

00:36:08.829 --> 00:36:13.800
removed, and then we mounted the new monument sign,

00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:19.269
everything was constructed exactly where the old sign used

00:36:19.269 --> 00:36:20.800
to be.

00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:25.659
And a permit was pulled for this, and obviously the

00:36:25.659 --> 00:36:31.650
measurements and their measurements doesn't match, and they

00:36:31.650 --> 00:36:36.800
denied the permit after we already had pulled one.

00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.909
I don't know what the difference will be on the

00:36:38.909 --> 00:36:39.800
measurements.

00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.619
When we measured the side of the monument, side of the

00:36:42.619 --> 00:36:45.690
property, you can't quite see it here, but it's actually

00:36:45.690 --> 00:36:48.710
the grass area that stands pretty far, so we measured the

00:36:48.710 --> 00:36:51.969
whole section of the grass area, there's a little creek

00:36:51.969 --> 00:36:55.699
that goes there, so we measured the concrete that's in the

00:36:55.699 --> 00:37:00.429
other property, thinking that was the proper measurement of

00:37:00.429 --> 00:37:01.800
the property.

00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.289
But at the end, when the city requested a survey, which we

00:37:05.289 --> 00:37:08.840
did, we added a survey here, we got a brand new survey, and

00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:12.329
they came out saying it doesn't meet the requirements, we

00:37:12.329 --> 00:37:16.130
only 3 foot 7 inches from the adjacent property, or the

00:37:16.130 --> 00:37:26.800
property, with the property as well.

00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:31.159
And then on this particular situation here, in order for us

00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:36.800
to remove the monument sign back, or remove it more to the

00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.429
outside of the parking lot, it's dangerous to pull the

00:37:39.429 --> 00:37:42.829
property because they won't be able to go around the gas

00:37:42.829 --> 00:37:47.460
station pumps, or they won't be able to, like we said, more

00:37:47.460 --> 00:37:50.800
back, people won't be able to see the sign at all.

00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:57.570
Like we need to beat the 20 foot clearance from the street

00:37:57.570 --> 00:38:04.070
to where the sign is now, you're moving it 5 feet more far

00:38:04.070 --> 00:38:10.289
back, and the pumps will be on the way, you won't be able

00:38:10.289 --> 00:38:12.800
to see it anymore.

00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:18.219
Like I was saying, on all this property, none of this was

00:38:18.219 --> 00:38:23.889
created by us, the property was renovated, new fascia was

00:38:23.889 --> 00:38:29.800
installed, new signs were installed on the canopy, which we

00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:32.800
pulled permits for it too.

00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:35.980
The only thing is when, I guess no excuses, we made a

00:38:35.980 --> 00:38:39.530
mistake on that one, when the gas of the monument sign, it

00:38:39.530 --> 00:38:42.949
was placed before we had the inspector come by and look at

00:38:42.949 --> 00:38:46.489
it, and make sure everything was there, but the sign was

00:38:46.489 --> 00:38:50.219
placed before the inspector came and looked at it, and that

00:38:50.219 --> 00:38:57.800
's when we got a failure on the inspection.

00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:02.460
And then just public benefits, preserving, saving the

00:39:02.460 --> 00:39:07.800
circulation that was creating, without us, it was a hazard.

00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:15.840
So we were just maintaining the sign location, modernizing

00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:23.090
the property, not having an advertisement for the gas

00:39:23.090 --> 00:39:28.800
station, it really affects the business.

00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:33.610
We respectfully request an approval for the variance that

00:39:33.610 --> 00:39:39.079
monument sign to remain 3.7 inches from the side property,

00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:44.800
lying in the required 10% back on the section 331.2.2.

00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:47.800
If you have any questions, please let me know.

00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:49.800
Thank you for your presentation sir.

00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:52.800
Do any board members have any questions for our applicant?

00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:54.800
Vice Chair?

00:39:54.800 --> 00:40:02.159
What would have you done if you had gotten the inspector

00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:04.800
before the sign?

00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:07.039
Were you the one that put in the new sign or was the

00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:09.800
company that did the renovations the one that put it in?

00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:12.800
Our company, our employees, they put it there.

00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:13.800
You put it there.

00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:14.800
Yes.

00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:17.630
And what would have you done if you found out that you

00:40:17.630 --> 00:40:20.800
couldn't put a sign there, before you put the sign in?

00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:23.699
Before we put the sign in, well we're going to, because

00:40:23.699 --> 00:40:27.210
this sign is our grandfather's hand, so you're only allowed

00:40:27.210 --> 00:40:30.800
to do refacing the sign, so that's what we would have done.

00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:34.739
But the customer wanted a monument sign at the moment, and

00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:38.800
when we applied for the permit, we received the permit.

00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.800
We didn't get the denial of the permit until after.

00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:45.269
Okay. So you thought you had the permission and then you

00:40:45.269 --> 00:40:45.800
did it.

00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:46.800
Yes.

00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:47.800
Okay.

00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:48.800
Member Rimsky.

00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:52.369
Okay. If I understand from your presentation, what you

00:40:52.369 --> 00:40:58.130
measured, you measured from where the sign is located, the

00:40:58.130 --> 00:41:05.989
full sign or the present sign, to where the grass ended,

00:41:05.989 --> 00:41:11.000
adjacent to the parking area of what I believe is an

00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.800
apartment complex, or that past year.

00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:19.460
Did anybody give you an accurate site map that showed

00:41:19.460 --> 00:41:23.800
exactly where the property line was?

00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:24.800
No, because you can see.

00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.530
With them coming out and re-addressing it, where did they

00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:28.800
put the property line?

00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:33.710
As you can see, I had this survey, which I had provided one

00:41:33.710 --> 00:41:38.739
day by the property, right, and then we used this thinking

00:41:38.739 --> 00:41:43.260
that the property line was there, but it obviously is

00:41:43.260 --> 00:41:48.190
different than what it is from the new original survey that

00:41:48.190 --> 00:41:49.800
we did after.

00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:53.050
So you're saying you used it in an official survey or you

00:41:53.050 --> 00:41:54.800
had another survey done?

00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:58.480
I had another survey done because this one is different

00:41:58.480 --> 00:41:59.800
than the survey.

00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:01.800
They're a little bit different.

00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:03.800
The old one and this one.

00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:07.119
This one was created, I can't say the name of it, but it

00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:08.800
was created quite back.

00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:12.599
But basically you did go to the effort to have what is an

00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:16.800
appropriate survey done by an approved survey company.

00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:21.530
Yes, this company in case, it's an approved company and I

00:42:21.530 --> 00:42:25.800
think it's placed here in the industry with that.

00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:28.800
But I think this survey was used to buy the property.

00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:35.800
Okay, thank you.

00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:43.800
Does the board have any other questions for Rob?

00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:47.800
Thank you for coming up to present.

00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:50.619
Now that the applicant and the city have presented their

00:42:50.619 --> 00:42:53.690
testimony, evidence, and arguments, is there anyone who

00:42:53.690 --> 00:42:55.800
wishes to speak regarding this variance?

00:42:55.800 --> 00:43:00.710
If so, please come forward and state your name and mailing

00:43:00.710 --> 00:43:01.800
address.

00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:07.800
You have four minutes to address the board.

00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:09.800
Okay, seeing none.

00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:14.159
After hearing all the testimony, evidence, arguments, and

00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:17.400
questions and answers, as well as hearing from all those

00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:20.800
desiring to speak in support and opposition to the variance

00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:20.800
,

00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:28.199
I will entertain further questions from the board for any

00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:31.800
parties or the speakers.

00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:38.340
If anyone has any further questions on the evidence now,

00:43:38.340 --> 00:43:41.800
this is the last time to ask.

00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:44.800
Hearing none, I now close the public hearing.

00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:48.090
The board will now deliberate and decide on the variance

00:43:48.090 --> 00:43:48.800
request.

00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:51.389
Upon the completion of the board's deliberation, the board

00:43:51.389 --> 00:43:54.889
shall render an unbiased decision based on the record and

00:43:54.889 --> 00:43:57.800
supported by reasons and findings of fact.

00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:00.679
In considering the variance, this board shall consider the

00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:03.789
facts and information in the agenda backup, including staff

00:44:03.789 --> 00:44:06.340
's written analysis of the variance, the applicant's

00:44:06.340 --> 00:44:08.800
narrative, and testimony presented in the public hearing,

00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:11.900
and the board's consideration and evaluation of the

00:44:11.900 --> 00:44:15.429
requirements of the applicable standards from the Debt and

00:44:15.429 --> 00:44:16.800
Development Code.

00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:20.889
The board may either grant the variance as presented or

00:44:20.889 --> 00:44:24.800
with conditions, or they can deny the variance.

00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:29.650
In your deliberation, consider the basis for the request

00:44:29.650 --> 00:44:34.800
and staff analysis criteria for approval of the variance.

00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:38.940
All right, so is there anyone who wishes to discuss the

00:44:38.940 --> 00:44:41.800
variance that was presented to us?

00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:43.800
Ms. Wormski.

00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:48.400
Based on what I have heard both from the city as well as

00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:52.800
the person addressing it on behalf of the patient,

00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:57.840
if that survey was performed as a means for the sale of the

00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:03.130
property, and the survey says that the property extended to

00:45:03.130 --> 00:45:03.800
X point,

00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:09.000
and they used that to determine what their setback and

00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:13.949
approval rate was, only to find out that somebody else

00:45:13.949 --> 00:45:19.800
comes out and says, no, it's not there.

00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:28.139
To me, one's caught in a legal circle thing on it, and it's

00:45:28.139 --> 00:45:38.949
no fault of the present owner, and therefore, in my estim

00:45:38.949 --> 00:45:39.800
ations,

00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:45.800
I would like to suggest that the variance be approved.

00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:47.800
Mr. Chair, did you have something you wanted to add?

00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:52.829
It is, I definitely think there would be an unnecessary

00:45:52.829 --> 00:45:57.800
hardship if the variance was not allowed,

00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:06.440
and it doesn't meet the purpose of what, yeah, just like

00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:10.079
for the safety thing, and it's like for the information

00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:10.800
available,

00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:14.440
like in order to get that information out for a gas station

00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:18.090
to his business, if it's not facing perpendicular to the

00:46:18.090 --> 00:46:18.800
street,

00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:23.820
if it's parallel with the street, you can't really see it

00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:26.800
as well if it's perpendicular.

00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:29.800
And I was basically going to say the same thing.

00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:33.800
There was no other than improving the look of the property,

00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:37.800
moving the sign from a pole sign to a monument sign.

00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:42.639
It was a break-even deal. It makes the property look better

00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:47.800
, and I'm not aware of the property that is adjacent to the

00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:47.800
property

00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:51.969
that we're talking about has had any complaint about this,

00:46:51.969 --> 00:46:55.360
you know, hey, they moved the pole sign and put a monument

00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:56.800
sign there,

00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:00.719
and I agree that I believe that the individual was trying

00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:02.800
to do everything properly,

00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:06.840
and if you're getting bad information, but you're making

00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:09.800
legitimate decisions on the information now,

00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:12.800
I don't believe the person ought to be penalized.

00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:16.800
Did you want to add something?

00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:24.949
I was going to, correct me if I get the language right, I

00:47:24.949 --> 00:47:30.800
motion that we allow the variance,

00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:34.849
because it would be an unnecessary hardship to have it

00:47:34.849 --> 00:47:37.800
removed or to find a new place for it.

00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:41.800
Is that the correct verbiage?

00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:44.800
Okay.

00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.800
Isn't this the exact verbiage that you need?

00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:51.800
Yes.

00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:59.679
I move that the variance be approved and adopt the test

00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:02.800
report because the applicant has met the variance approval

00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:02.800
criteria

00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:08.000
listed in section 20.8.1(d)(1), and that is it would be

00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:13.000
unnecessary hardship to have to find a new location for the

00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:13.800
sign.

00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:19.800
Would anyone like to second this?

00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:21.800
I second this please.

00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:23.800
Okay.

00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:27.699
Now that we have a motion and a second, having received a

00:48:27.699 --> 00:48:30.949
motion and a second, is there any further discussion on

00:48:30.949 --> 00:48:32.800
this variance request?

00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:34.800
Yes.

00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:35.800
Okay.

00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:38.139
There being no further discussion on the variance, please

00:48:38.139 --> 00:48:39.800
vote on the motion and show of hands.

00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:46.159
All in favor of approving the variance, or to have the

00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:51.800
variance be approved and adopt the test report,

00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:55.090
because the applicant has met the variance approval

00:48:55.090 --> 00:49:00.800
criteria listed in section 2.8.1(d)(1), that is it.

00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:01.800
Okay.

00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:02.800
Say aye.

00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:03.800
Aye.

00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:05.800
All opposed?

00:49:05.800 --> 00:49:09.800
All opposed?

00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:10.800
Okay.

00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:14.800
So we have, aye or nay?

00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:15.800
Nay.

00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:16.800
Sorry, nay.

00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:17.800
Okay.

00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:18.800
Okay.

00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:26.639
So the results are the five in favor of the variance and

00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:30.800
one against, so the motion fails.

00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:33.800
So the motion fails.

00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:38.800
The request variance has been denied then.

00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:39.800
No.

00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:40.800
It fails.

00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:42.800
The variance has failed.

00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:45.800
Okay, so we just go back to discussion then, right?

00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:46.800
Okay.

00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:47.800
Okay.

00:49:47.800 --> 00:49:48.800
Let's see.

00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:51.070
I guess since we do have an A on the board, remember,

00:49:51.070 --> 00:49:53.269
should anyone present their reasons as to why you're

00:49:53.269 --> 00:49:53.800
opposed to it?

00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:54.800
Sure.

00:49:54.800 --> 00:50:00.360
My understanding is that the survey was done after the sign

00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:01.800
was installed.

00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:05.969
Also, that was not done at the point of purchase of the

00:50:05.969 --> 00:50:09.460
property and then that information of where the property

00:50:09.460 --> 00:50:10.800
line would be.

00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:14.239
I understand the mistake of measuring to the grasp, but the

00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:16.800
property line is public information.

00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:19.800
So I'm not sure that I find that to be.

00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:25.190
And like the city presented, the fact that the property is

00:50:25.190 --> 00:50:30.460
entirely paved is not a unique condition to this specific

00:50:30.460 --> 00:50:31.800
business.

00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:35.199
I guess my understanding is they had a survey in which the

00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:39.610
property was bought on, and that was not necessarily

00:50:39.610 --> 00:50:40.800
correct.

00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:44.800
That was my interpretation of it.

00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:47.800
Can we enlarge the survey as always?

00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:48.800
No, go ahead, Mr. Raffenspiel.

00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:51.530
Can we enlarge the survey as it is out there to see when

00:50:51.530 --> 00:50:52.800
exactly it was done?

00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:54.800
I don't know.

00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:55.800
No.

00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:56.800
There's no reason?

00:50:56.800 --> 00:50:57.800
Oh, no.

00:50:57.800 --> 00:50:59.800
Yeah, the testimony period is out there.

00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:00.800
Is that right?

00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:01.800
Yeah.

00:51:01.800 --> 00:51:02.800
We can't ask.

00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:03.800
We can't investigate new evidence.

00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:04.800
Yeah.

00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:09.900
I have a question under the staff recommendation for

00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:11.800
clarification.

00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:13.800
Can I ask that?

00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:14.800
It depends on what it is.

00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:15.800
Okay.

00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:19.579
It was the staff, they do not find all the criteria

00:51:19.579 --> 00:51:23.050
strictly met, therefore they do not recommend approval of

00:51:23.050 --> 00:51:23.800
the variance.

00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:27.639
However, staff have no objection should the zoning board of

00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:31.019
adjustment find that the request meets the spirit and

00:51:31.019 --> 00:51:32.800
intent of the criteria.

00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:34.800
That was not our motion.

00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:35.800
No.

00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:41.199
If we change our motion, if I present a new motion for vote

00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:43.800
, is that an allowable?

00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:46.800
So the motion has to be the way it was read before.

00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:50.340
That's just a kind of way to get your head around how

00:51:50.340 --> 00:51:54.800
different people might view different facts differently.

00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:57.679
So it's all part of the discussion that you guys are having

00:51:57.679 --> 00:51:59.800
as to what conclusion you would come to.

00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:02.559
So that's kind of staff's report, what they recommend

00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:03.800
moving forward with.

00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:07.250
But then as you guys review the evidence that was presented

00:52:07.250 --> 00:52:10.340
to you, it's up to you to either make a motion to approve

00:52:10.340 --> 00:52:10.800
or to--

00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:11.800
Okay.

00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:13.800
All right.

00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:14.800
Thank you.

00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:15.800
Do you have a question?

00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:21.800
I guess question to board member.

00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:22.800
Register.

00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:23.800
Register.

00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:31.699
Do you--is it the fact that--is it the holding on that is

00:52:31.699 --> 00:52:36.500
not unique, like you view it as not unique, as the reason

00:52:36.500 --> 00:52:37.800
as the name?

00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:39.800
That is a factor, yeah.

00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:43.110
That's like according to my understanding, it has to be

00:52:43.110 --> 00:52:43.800
unique.

00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:45.800
That's a hardship.

00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:52.949
I mean, the reason why I view it as a hardship is because

00:52:52.949 --> 00:52:58.800
one, there is the--I mean, you can put it on the sign.

00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:02.670
Like you can put it on the canopy, but it doesn't

00:53:02.670 --> 00:53:07.210
necessarily do the same--it's a less--it doesn't do the

00:53:07.210 --> 00:53:09.800
same role as it does there.

00:53:09.800 --> 00:53:15.719
And there's also the canopy--the canopy that I saw on the

00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:18.159
new one, I don't know what type of work you're going to

00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:19.800
have to do to make sure that it can hold the sign.

00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:20.800
Sure.

00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:23.690
And I view that as the unnecessary hardship, but you're

00:53:23.690 --> 00:53:26.460
going to have to get that inspected to make sure that it

00:53:26.460 --> 00:53:29.429
can be load-bearing, especially over--since it's over gas

00:53:29.429 --> 00:53:29.800
pumps.

00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:32.940
Like either it is, then you put the sign up, but then you

00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:36.130
also have--if it isn't, you're either going to have to do

00:53:36.130 --> 00:53:38.800
the work to make that safe to do it or not.

00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:46.190
And I guess that's--I view that as burdensome and

00:53:46.190 --> 00:53:48.800
unnecessary.

00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:51.800
Do you wish to respond?

00:53:51.800 --> 00:53:53.800
I hear what you're saying.

00:53:53.800 --> 00:53:55.800
That's not what was presented.

00:53:55.800 --> 00:54:00.539
I think that if this was being presented as a variance

00:54:00.539 --> 00:54:05.710
request for a sign that didn't exist, my opinion might be

00:54:05.710 --> 00:54:09.800
different, but the sign doesn't exist.

00:54:09.800 --> 00:54:16.800
I do--I guess if I can call myself, I suppose.

00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:21.539
I'm trying to think--I guess I do have a concern if the--I

00:54:21.539 --> 00:54:26.500
guess my thing is mainly the safety feature, but I believe

00:54:26.500 --> 00:54:31.670
--because if we had the move to sign my feedback, it would

00:54:31.670 --> 00:54:34.800
cause some traffic safety issues.

00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:36.800
I am trying to think.

00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:40.230
If--I suppose if we were to deny the variance, I imagine--

00:54:40.230 --> 00:54:43.800
well, no, that would be an evidence question, I think.

00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:44.800
Yeah.

00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:45.800
No, I can't ask that.

00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:49.639
I was trying to think if there would be another place to

00:54:49.639 --> 00:54:50.800
put the sign.

00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:52.800
All we have is our minds and the evidence presented.

00:54:52.800 --> 00:55:01.800
Right.

00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:05.559
So if the board can't make a decision without additional

00:55:05.559 --> 00:55:09.480
evidence, we can go back up to the beginning and reopen the

00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:12.800
public hearing and ask additional questions.

00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:13.800
Okay.

00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:17.239
Would the board be open to reopening the public hearing for

00:55:17.239 --> 00:55:18.800
additional evidence?

00:55:18.800 --> 00:55:19.800
Sure.

00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:20.800
Okay.

00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:31.800
So then we're going to go back.

00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:34.800
I now reopen the public hearing.

00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:40.800
All witnesses for this case have been previously sworn.

00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:44.849
So it's just--do you want to call the city or the public

00:55:44.849 --> 00:55:45.800
hearing?

00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:48.800
I guess we can call the city first.

00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:52.010
Will the city please make a presentation of the request for

00:55:52.010 --> 00:55:54.800
variance analysis for Criterion of Approval?

00:55:54.800 --> 00:56:01.800
Or at least return to stand-experience?

00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:05.800
I'm not going to be an assistant.

00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:11.070
Before I ask my questions, does anybody have any questions

00:56:11.070 --> 00:56:13.800
for this member of the city?

00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:14.800
Sure.

00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:15.800
I'll ask.

00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:23.280
So to your knowledge, would it be permitted for the price

00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:30.309
or part of the sign to be installed on the canopy itself

00:56:30.309 --> 00:56:34.800
instead of the monument signs?

00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:50.800
So currently there is--I'll forward my--I'm just saying,

00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:50.800
sorry.

00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:55.800
So currently there is a sign permitted on the canopy.

00:56:55.800 --> 00:57:00.489
I'm going to--I said I would double-check real quick to see

00:57:00.489 --> 00:57:04.800
if there's another sign permitted on the canopy.

00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:12.800
I just have to double-check that.

00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:19.860
So there's a--it's considered a wall sign on the canopy, so

00:57:19.860 --> 00:57:26.800
it's a little different from the monument or wall sign.

00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:46.800
So we'll come to that real quick.

00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:51.800
So are there other questions?

00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:58.019
I have a question. If instead of a monument sign, the

00:57:58.019 --> 00:58:00.610
current sign there was placed on a one-foot pole instead of

00:58:00.610 --> 00:58:12.800
on the ground, would it be a non-compliant legal sign?

00:58:12.800 --> 00:58:28.800
I'll just do one second. I'm going to grab the tape real

00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:28.800
quick.

00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:32.090
So it would still be a ground sign, so it would still have

00:58:32.090 --> 00:58:32.800
to move.

00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:36.780
Well, at what point does it no longer be a pole sign and it

00:58:36.780 --> 00:58:41.800
moves to a monument sign? Is there a certain elevation?

00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:47.500
So the elevation--so the height limit is the same whether

00:58:47.500 --> 00:58:50.800
it's a monument or a pole sign.

00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:55.599
Well, what I'm saying is it was a legally nonconforming

00:58:55.599 --> 00:58:56.800
pole sign.

00:58:56.800 --> 00:59:00.800
If instead of the sign being 10 feet or 12 feet in the air,

00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:04.369
they just cut the pole to where it was a foot above the

00:59:04.369 --> 00:59:08.099
ground and made it a pole sign that was only a foot above

00:59:08.099 --> 00:59:08.800
the ground,

00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:13.800
would that have been a legally nonconforming pole sign?

00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:17.010
Or does it have to be a certain elevation for it to be

00:59:17.010 --> 00:59:24.800
considered a pole sign? You have to be a certain height.

00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:29.800
So the code doesn't distinguish--

00:59:29.800 --> 00:59:31.800
A specific height for the pole, correct?

00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:37.030
Yeah, the code doesn't distinguish specific height for the

00:59:37.030 --> 00:59:37.800
pole.

00:59:37.800 --> 00:59:44.079
Yeah, I have a question. So it's my understanding that any

00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:50.460
change to the signage, as in there was a nonconforming sign

00:59:50.460 --> 00:59:51.800
, that was removed.

00:59:51.800 --> 00:59:57.800
At that point, any other sign going in must be conforming?

00:59:57.800 --> 00:59:58.800
Correct.

00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:03.800
Okay, so by no longer having a pole sign, it doesn't matter

01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:08.800
. They wouldn't necessarily be able to put in a pole sign at

01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:14.800
this point unless it meets all requirements.

01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:15.800
Correct.

01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:21.880
Okay, so the monument sign, even though it was put in the

01:00:21.880 --> 01:00:28.190
same place, which is what it's showing us on the photos, it

01:00:28.190 --> 01:00:31.800
doesn't meet the conformity.

01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:34.800
Correct, yes. It's considered a new sign.

01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:40.000
It's a new sign. So that's actually what the issue is. They

01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:44.599
need to request the variance that they did not meet that

01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:49.699
new requirement, or the requirement of a new development,

01:00:49.699 --> 01:00:50.800
new sign.

01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:51.800
Correct.

01:00:51.800 --> 01:00:53.800
Okay.

01:00:53.800 --> 01:00:54.800
Maroski?

01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:59.519
So therefore, a variance is required whether you put it up

01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:03.800
as a pole sign or whether you have it as a monument.

01:01:03.800 --> 01:01:09.780
And even if it was a pole sign, with the pole going in the

01:01:09.780 --> 01:01:16.019
exact same concrete or whatever sleeve that the pole goes

01:01:16.019 --> 01:01:16.800
in.

01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:17.969
So as whether, so if it's a new sign, whether it's a pole

01:01:17.969 --> 01:01:21.670
or monument sign, anything you can create up, I guess the

01:01:21.670 --> 01:01:29.239
only way for them to have maintained legal nonconforming on

01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:34.800
the previous sign is if they change just the face.

01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:38.880
The pole itself would have to stay, you know, just have to,

01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:40.800
only the face can change.

01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:45.519
I understand that, but what I'm stating is you put a new

01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:50.969
sign in that's on a pole, and everything about the sign is

01:01:50.969 --> 01:01:54.800
consistent with the previous sign.

01:01:54.800 --> 01:02:03.030
It's height, it's size of the sign face, etc. All of that

01:02:03.030 --> 01:02:08.119
is identical to them. It would still require the variance

01:02:08.119 --> 01:02:09.800
is what we're hearing.

01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:10.800
Am I correct?

01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:17.800
Correct. Yes, correct.

01:02:17.800 --> 01:02:35.599
So I downloaded what was listed as the criteria for the

01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:40.800
documentation.

01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:46.070
I was inquiring if it was possible to make that date

01:02:46.070 --> 01:02:52.230
visible of the survey a little bit more legible by quote, "

01:02:52.230 --> 01:02:57.800
just enlarging that," you know, zooming it in.

01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:03.250
And I'm having a bit of difficulty with the reply being

01:03:03.250 --> 01:03:09.429
that that's a new piece of information, trying to determine

01:03:09.429 --> 01:03:14.800
and being able to read what is put up on the screen.

01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:17.409
Well, we can ask questions about it now. We reopened the

01:03:17.409 --> 01:03:19.800
public hearing, so you can ask any questions you want.

01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:24.809
I'm at, you know, for that. But anyway, in doing it online,

01:03:24.809 --> 01:03:29.019
which I don't know that it would be acceptable for me to

01:03:29.019 --> 01:03:38.280
read off, it shows that the date of the survey is on the 4/

01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:40.800
26.

01:03:40.800 --> 01:03:45.699
Okay, this is one by Metroplex Survey. The one that's up

01:03:45.699 --> 01:03:54.789
there is by KMZ. Is there any way to find out? Because if I

01:03:54.789 --> 01:03:59.800
understand...

01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:06.179
I guess... Remember, register's objection was that the

01:04:06.179 --> 01:04:11.309
survey was done after the sign was in place. So one of

01:04:11.309 --> 01:04:14.800
these could have been done after the sign was in place.

01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:17.820
But what does the survey that was required at the sale of

01:04:17.820 --> 01:04:22.409
the property? Is that KMZ's? And where does it show is the

01:04:22.409 --> 01:04:25.800
end of the property? That's what I'm trying to get to.

01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:31.800
And I think that's what we are all trying to get to.

01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:35.559
I guess that would be a question for the applicant. Would

01:04:35.559 --> 01:04:42.880
the applicant find coming to the board to vote anything as

01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:44.800
a question?

01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:48.800
Same question?

01:04:48.800 --> 01:04:54.519
Okay. We've got two surveys. The one that's there, I guess,

01:04:54.519 --> 01:04:56.800
is your presentation.

01:04:56.800 --> 01:04:57.800
Yeah.

01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.800
Okay, you had it done by KMZ.

01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:04.269
No, no. This survey was done before we even started this.

01:05:04.269 --> 01:05:06.800
All the survey was provided by the owner.

01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:10.260
Okay, so then that's the survey at point of sale. Because

01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:13.260
when you go to sell something, you have to have a survey

01:05:13.260 --> 01:05:13.800
done.

01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:14.800
Right.

01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:18.989
Is there any means, and that's a technical means for with

01:05:18.989 --> 01:05:25.800
us here, that we can have that portion that lists the date

01:05:25.800 --> 01:05:27.800
of when the survey was done.

01:05:27.800 --> 01:05:35.340
And if that survey was indeed done at point of sale, it's

01:05:35.340 --> 01:05:41.800
definitely ahead of what any monument sign was put in.

01:05:41.800 --> 01:05:47.349
And if that survey shows that the property line goes all

01:05:47.349 --> 01:05:53.099
the way over to the concrete of the apartment complex or

01:05:53.099 --> 01:05:55.800
whatever is next to it,

01:05:55.800 --> 01:06:04.059
then, and if that shows that it's, quote, that 10 feet that

01:06:04.059 --> 01:06:11.420
, as you said in your presentation, it was in, this whole

01:06:11.420 --> 01:06:15.800
exercise should lead to accepting the variance.

01:06:15.800 --> 01:06:20.630
Because really, if you go to the right end, a variance wasn

01:06:20.630 --> 01:06:23.800
't needed. Somebody's measured something wrong.

01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:26.800
And that's what the determination is.

01:06:26.800 --> 01:06:30.480
Member Rimsky, I do apologize, but may I ask what your

01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:32.800
question was to the applicant?

01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:39.949
My question is to the applicant is determining what was the

01:06:39.949 --> 01:06:42.800
date of that survey.

01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:46.349
Is it possible to get that survey outside just like a

01:06:46.349 --> 01:06:50.239
better resolution of that survey so we can see details on

01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:50.800
it?

01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:51.800
Yeah.

01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:52.800
Can I answer that?

01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:56.260
I have the survey on my phone somewhere. I have to just

01:06:56.260 --> 01:06:56.800
look for it.

01:06:56.800 --> 01:06:57.800
Okay.

01:06:57.800 --> 01:06:58.800
You know, just really have to look at it.

01:06:58.800 --> 01:06:59.800
Okay.

01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:00.800
Okay.

01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:01.800
Last one.

01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:14.800
[ Inaudible ]

01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:20.800
So the date on the survey is July 2, 2020.

01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:26.070
July 2, 2020 was when the property was sold or prior to

01:07:26.070 --> 01:07:26.800
sell.

01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:30.880
Prior, I don't know, whoever the owner is the one providing

01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:32.800
the survey prior to this.

01:07:32.800 --> 01:07:35.130
I believe this is the survey that was done with the

01:07:35.130 --> 01:07:35.800
property.

01:07:35.800 --> 01:07:36.800
Okay.

01:07:36.800 --> 01:07:39.800
Okay.

01:07:39.800 --> 01:07:43.800
So when you say that you measured, you were talking about,

01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:46.800
you weren't using the survey to determine where to measure.

01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:47.800
Yes. Yeah.

01:07:47.800 --> 01:07:52.409
As you can tell in the survey, you don't see, you know, the

01:07:52.409 --> 01:07:54.800
other property is not adjacent to it on the service.

01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:58.800
So it's pretty hard to tell where exactly to measure.

01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:00.980
So when we measure, when we have a rough people measure, we

01:08:00.980 --> 01:08:04.050
measure from the street, from the edge of the street into

01:08:04.050 --> 01:08:07.800
the grass area and so the other side was the next property.

01:08:07.800 --> 01:08:10.800
There's actually, it drops down and there's a little creek

01:08:10.800 --> 01:08:11.800
that helps down.

01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:12.800
Yeah.

01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:13.800
So we measure all that.

01:08:13.800 --> 01:08:15.800
Sure.

01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:20.060
So that survey that you had, that made you believe that the

01:08:20.060 --> 01:08:22.800
property line was to the concrete?

01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:23.800
Yes.

01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:27.800
Okay.

01:08:27.800 --> 01:08:31.670
Is it possible to see, I mean, technically it is sort of

01:08:31.670 --> 01:08:35.680
evidence in, is it, would it be okay for us to look at that

01:08:35.680 --> 01:08:38.800
, a better resolution of that survey?

01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:42.800
So he's a sworn, he's providing sworn testimony.

01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:45.670
So his sworn testimony is that the survey is dated July 2nd

01:08:45.670 --> 01:08:46.800
, 2020.

01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:47.800
Okay.

01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:50.800
It's more of the lines of the survey.

01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:55.800
And I don't know if we have the ability to do that.

01:08:55.800 --> 01:08:56.800
Yeah.

01:08:56.800 --> 01:08:57.800
That's what I guess.

01:08:57.800 --> 01:08:58.800
But it's more of a process question.

01:08:58.800 --> 01:08:59.800
Yeah.

01:08:59.800 --> 01:09:04.159
Like would it be possible to get a better resolution

01:09:04.159 --> 01:09:09.050
screenshot or photo of that survey to look at the evidence

01:09:09.050 --> 01:09:10.800
or is it too late?

01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:14.800
Do you, does that help?

01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:17.800
We do record it.

01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:18.800
I see.

01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:23.800
All right.

01:09:23.800 --> 01:09:24.800
Okay.

01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:26.800
Okay.

01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:30.640
Is the question just on verifying the date of the survey or

01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:32.800
is that what the question is?

01:09:32.800 --> 01:09:36.960
Well, would it be possible for the presenter to physically

01:09:36.960 --> 01:09:41.119
maintain control of his phone and show the date, the survey

01:09:41.119 --> 01:09:43.800
date on the phone to each one of us?

01:09:43.800 --> 01:09:45.800
I think we would pass the date issue.

01:09:45.800 --> 01:09:46.800
Oh, we are?

01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:47.800
Yeah.

01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:54.670
Because I think board member registers concern, would it,

01:09:54.670 --> 01:09:58.800
if the survey showed that, like that the property was --

01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:00.800
If the survey was wrong, sure.

01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:02.800
Okay, that's what I was trying to get at.

01:10:02.800 --> 01:10:03.800
That would be --

01:10:03.800 --> 01:10:04.800
If the survey was --

01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:06.800
That's one issue.

01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:07.800
Yeah, sure.

01:10:07.800 --> 01:10:09.800
But would that be enough to change your vote?

01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:11.800
I don't think that it's unique still.

01:10:11.800 --> 01:10:12.800
No.

01:10:12.800 --> 01:10:13.800
Okay.

01:10:13.800 --> 01:10:15.800
So that's not going to be loaded or --

01:10:15.800 --> 01:10:16.800
All right.

01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:17.800
This one's a shot.

01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:18.800
Okay.

01:10:18.800 --> 01:10:23.800
Do you want to load the survey?

01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:25.800
Do you want to load the survey?

01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:26.800
I mean, if it's --

01:10:26.800 --> 01:10:29.710
If there's no discrepancy between the surveys, then it

01:10:29.710 --> 01:10:30.800
doesn't matter.

01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:40.800
I mean, I guess for me, if it shows the -- I don't know.

01:10:40.800 --> 01:10:44.550
I did, because there was a -- because there was this survey

01:10:44.550 --> 01:10:44.800
.

01:10:44.800 --> 01:10:47.229
Was this -- just to clarify, was this the second survey

01:10:47.229 --> 01:10:48.800
done or the first survey done?

01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:50.479
This is the survey, the first survey we provided to the

01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:50.800
city.

01:10:50.800 --> 01:10:51.800
Okay.

01:10:51.800 --> 01:10:55.319
Do you have -- or does the city have it or does the -- for

01:10:55.319 --> 01:10:56.800
the second survey?

01:10:56.800 --> 01:10:57.800
It's in the presentation.

01:10:57.800 --> 01:10:59.800
Yeah, that was in the presentation.

01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:00.800
Okay.

01:11:00.800 --> 01:11:03.800
I think it's in your presentation.

01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:04.800
Yeah, it was there.

01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:05.800
Okay.

01:11:05.800 --> 01:11:08.800
Do you want to see the first survey?

01:11:08.800 --> 01:11:09.800
Yes.

01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:12.800
If we could -- I'm just trying to figure out the first one.

01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:17.800
[ Inaudible ]

01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:21.170
While they're doing that, you had a question about wall

01:11:21.170 --> 01:11:21.800
signs?

01:11:21.800 --> 01:11:22.800
Oh, yeah.

01:11:22.800 --> 01:11:25.800
A wall sign could be potentially added to the canopy.

01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:29.359
It depends on height, because there could be setbacks

01:11:29.359 --> 01:11:30.800
regarding the variation.

01:11:30.800 --> 01:11:34.479
So it really depends on height and whether they have the

01:11:34.479 --> 01:11:35.800
ability to do so.

01:11:35.800 --> 01:11:36.800
Okay.

01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:40.869
And I guess how many wall signs are they allowed to have on

01:11:40.869 --> 01:11:41.800
a canopy?

01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:43.800
We don't limit the number of wall signs.

01:11:43.800 --> 01:11:44.800
Okay.

01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:49.029
Again, it's related to relevant setbacks to adjacent

01:11:49.029 --> 01:11:50.800
residential uses.

01:11:50.800 --> 01:11:55.489
But -- so I understand that the canopy is more than 10 feet

01:11:55.489 --> 01:11:55.800
.

01:11:55.800 --> 01:11:58.479
So if the wall signs were on, even the far side of the

01:11:58.479 --> 01:12:00.800
canopy, it would be acceptable.

01:12:00.800 --> 01:12:01.800
Illumination.

01:12:01.800 --> 01:12:04.800
Well, the setbacks are related to ground signs.

01:12:04.800 --> 01:12:07.800
Wall signs are treated a little differently.

01:12:07.800 --> 01:12:08.800
Okay.

01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:10.800
When I looked at the survey --

01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:11.800
This is the first survey?

01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:12.800
Okay.

01:12:12.800 --> 01:12:13.800
Okay.

01:12:13.800 --> 01:12:15.800
What would the sign be on this survey?

01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:16.800
Right with the X marks?

01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:17.800
X marks.

01:12:17.800 --> 01:12:21.060
Which, when you're looking at the survey, the bold black is

01:12:21.060 --> 01:12:22.800
the property black.

01:12:22.800 --> 01:12:23.800
Okay.

01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:24.800
That's why --

01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:26.800
It was in this reading of the --

01:12:26.800 --> 01:12:27.800
Okay.

01:12:27.800 --> 01:12:29.899
Yeah, when staff reviewed the permit, their comment was, "

01:12:29.899 --> 01:12:31.800
It appears the sign would be located off site.

01:12:31.800 --> 01:12:33.800
You need to provide updated location information."

01:12:33.800 --> 01:12:34.800
Okay.

01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:36.300
Because the X is outside the boundaries of the property

01:12:36.300 --> 01:12:36.800
lines on this.

01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:41.380
So the new survey has to put it within property, but

01:12:41.380 --> 01:12:43.800
outside of conformity.

01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:44.800
Okay.

01:12:44.800 --> 01:12:45.800
Yeah.

01:12:45.800 --> 01:12:46.800
Okay.

01:12:46.800 --> 01:12:47.800
Okay.

01:12:47.800 --> 01:12:52.800
Do we have the date for the second survey that was done?

01:12:52.800 --> 01:12:57.800
Actually, I haven't gotten that.

01:12:57.800 --> 01:13:07.800
That shows us April 4th of April 20th.

01:13:07.800 --> 01:13:08.800
Okay.

01:13:08.800 --> 01:13:09.800
What's the list?

01:13:09.800 --> 01:13:17.800
April 2nd and April -- yeah.

01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:24.649
So the second survey was done April -- oh, I just had it --

01:13:24.649 --> 01:13:27.800
20th of this year.

01:13:27.800 --> 01:13:28.800
Okay.

01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:29.800
On the 6th.

01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:30.800
Okay.

01:13:30.800 --> 01:13:31.800
And then --

01:13:31.800 --> 01:13:32.800
What was that?

01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:33.800
Yeah.

01:13:33.800 --> 01:13:34.800
And then --

01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:35.800
Is it April --

01:13:35.800 --> 01:13:36.800
Yeah.

01:13:36.800 --> 01:13:37.800
Okay.

01:13:37.800 --> 01:13:38.800
Okay.

01:13:38.800 --> 01:13:39.800
Great.

01:13:39.800 --> 01:13:42.380
Since what would be the alternative would be the ground

01:13:42.380 --> 01:13:46.800
signs on the canopy, I guess -- I

01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:52.300
mean, if -- like, even if like this -- like, because would

01:13:52.300 --> 01:13:55.800
there be any -- because the rules

01:13:55.800 --> 01:13:59.869
are different, could they put -- could they put wall signs

01:13:59.869 --> 01:14:01.800
on the -- either on any part

01:14:01.800 --> 01:14:02.800
of the canopy or --

01:14:02.800 --> 01:14:05.800
I'll say that the code allows -- would allow a wall sign.

01:14:05.800 --> 01:14:06.800
We haven't reviewed it.

01:14:06.800 --> 01:14:09.800
We don't know if it meets any other regulations.

01:14:09.800 --> 01:14:12.800
So I would hate to say it could be a wall sign.

01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:13.800
Okay.

01:14:13.800 --> 01:14:14.800
So indeterminate.

01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:15.800
Okay.

01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:21.819
If we were to -- if by the statement of looking toward a

01:14:21.819 --> 01:14:25.800
wall sign, any wall sign is going

01:14:25.800 --> 01:14:31.520
to have the -- arise that is going to be consistent with

01:14:31.520 --> 01:14:35.800
the lower height of the canopy as a minimum.

01:14:35.800 --> 01:14:39.800
The sign will be there above there.

01:14:39.800 --> 01:14:48.100
Realistically, as a driver going by who wants to buy gifts,

01:14:48.100 --> 01:14:52.800
in order to see that sign, it's

01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:57.090
going to be the, quote, 20 feet or so back because that's

01:14:57.090 --> 01:14:57.800
where --

01:14:57.800 --> 01:14:58.800
Okay.

01:14:58.800 --> 01:14:59.800
Oh.

01:14:59.800 --> 01:15:00.800
-- the thing is.

01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:07.430
Plus it's going to be up as to a point that it's not really

01:15:07.430 --> 01:15:09.800
within the site.

01:15:09.800 --> 01:15:10.800
Member Rimsky.

01:15:10.800 --> 01:15:13.189
I do apologize for interrupting, but do you have any

01:15:13.189 --> 01:15:14.800
further questions for either our applicant

01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:16.800
or for the city?

01:15:16.800 --> 01:15:21.729
I can't stop, but what I was trying to do was address the

01:15:21.729 --> 01:15:24.800
discussion with Council Member

01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:25.800
Wakefield.

01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:27.800
So my apologies for this.

01:15:27.800 --> 01:15:30.800
No worries, Member Rimsky.

01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:34.119
Does anyone else on this board have any other questions for

01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:35.800
either our -- for either the

01:15:35.800 --> 01:15:40.800
city or for our applicant?

01:15:40.800 --> 01:15:43.800
Hearing none, I will go ahead and close the public hearing.

01:15:43.800 --> 01:15:49.649
Thank you both for your -- thank you both for coming up

01:15:49.649 --> 01:15:50.800
again.

01:15:50.800 --> 01:15:53.250
The board will deliberate again on the side on the variance

01:15:53.250 --> 01:15:53.800
request.

01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:56.300
Upon the completion of the board's deliberation, the board

01:15:56.300 --> 01:15:57.800
shall render an unbiased decision

01:15:57.800 --> 01:16:01.250
based on the record and supported by reason and findings of

01:16:01.250 --> 01:16:01.800
fact.

01:16:01.800 --> 01:16:04.470
In considering the variance, this board shall consider the

01:16:04.470 --> 01:16:05.800
facts and information in the

01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:08.149
agenda backup, including staff strength analysis, the

01:16:08.149 --> 01:16:09.800
variance, the applicant's narrative and

01:16:09.800 --> 01:16:13.050
testimony presented in the public hearing, and the board's

01:16:13.050 --> 01:16:14.800
consideration and evaluation

01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:17.590
of the requirements of the applicable standards from the D

01:16:17.590 --> 01:16:18.800
IN Development Code.

01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:21.619
The board may either grant the variance as presented or

01:16:21.619 --> 01:16:23.800
with conditions or deny the variance.

01:16:23.800 --> 01:16:26.930
In deliberation, consider the basis of the request and

01:16:26.930 --> 01:16:28.800
staff analysis for the criteria

01:16:28.800 --> 01:16:33.800
of the board's rule of variance.

01:16:33.800 --> 01:16:36.800
Member Rimsky, did you want to continue?

01:16:36.800 --> 01:16:37.800
She has a question.

01:16:37.800 --> 01:16:38.800
Yes, go ahead.

01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:46.979
Okay, I was just kind of thinking out loud, my apologies

01:16:46.979 --> 01:16:48.800
for that.

01:16:48.800 --> 01:16:52.800
Okay, we're looking at this variance.

01:16:52.800 --> 01:17:01.279
The end result, number one, we provide the variance, all is

01:17:01.279 --> 01:17:03.800
well and good in that aspect.

01:17:03.800 --> 01:17:08.800
Number two, we don't agree with the variance.

01:17:08.800 --> 01:17:17.800
There does not appear in my risk/benefit options analysis

01:17:17.800 --> 01:17:20.800
to be any option.

01:17:20.800 --> 01:17:24.850
Therefore, if there's no other option for the sign's

01:17:24.850 --> 01:17:27.800
location, they don't have a sign.

01:17:27.800 --> 01:17:33.960
By not having a sign, are we therefore impacting the

01:17:33.960 --> 01:17:39.800
ability of the business to function as a business?

01:17:39.800 --> 01:17:46.180
And that, in my understanding, is not what government is

01:17:46.180 --> 01:17:50.800
supposed to do, or this whole thing is supposed to do.

01:17:50.800 --> 01:17:54.939
If they can't provide us a business, they close up shop,

01:17:54.939 --> 01:17:57.800
and anybody else would then go to the QT,

01:17:57.800 --> 01:18:03.109
which is down the street from it, if I'm understanding

01:18:03.109 --> 01:18:04.800
things right.

01:18:04.800 --> 01:18:08.800
Vice Chair Wayfield, did you want to comment on it?

01:18:08.800 --> 01:18:15.800
I guess, just more of a general comment.

01:18:15.800 --> 01:18:23.800
It is, I guess, I view this as in, not necessarily as staff

01:18:23.800 --> 01:18:27.800
said, staff does not have an objection of this.

01:18:27.800 --> 01:18:35.500
There is no negative to proposing the variance, and I do

01:18:35.500 --> 01:18:38.800
view it as unique enough,

01:18:38.800 --> 01:18:43.489
as in most of the gas stations I see around here are not

01:18:43.489 --> 01:18:45.800
fully paved like that.

01:18:45.800 --> 01:18:49.439
I would say, if you look at, on North Texas, there's

01:18:49.439 --> 01:18:51.800
multiple that are fully paved.

01:18:51.800 --> 01:18:55.800
On Blaine Gray, there are several that are fully paved.

01:18:55.800 --> 01:19:05.520
And then, I guess, it is, we have, since we couldn't get

01:19:05.520 --> 01:19:10.800
that information from staff,

01:19:10.800 --> 01:19:18.029
we have no, they are either going to be having to either

01:19:18.029 --> 01:19:22.180
pay for more signage to get the same benefit that they

01:19:22.180 --> 01:19:23.800
currently have with it right now,

01:19:23.800 --> 01:19:27.970
or they will get no benefit from it due to, or they'll have

01:19:27.970 --> 01:19:30.800
to come back for another variance.

01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:36.800
And, we know this process takes time and is inexpensive,

01:19:36.800 --> 01:19:40.829
so if they have to come back for either another variance

01:19:40.829 --> 01:19:48.800
for a sign, either for the canopy, yeah.

01:19:48.800 --> 01:19:53.800
I have a question.

01:19:53.800 --> 01:20:01.659
Our, sitting on the ZVA, we are either to uphold the

01:20:01.659 --> 01:20:03.800
requirements,

01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:08.119
and as Member-Register has pointed out, it didn't mean all

01:20:08.119 --> 01:20:08.800
four.

01:20:08.800 --> 01:20:14.319
We, as a board, are allowed to, okay, we can say it's

01:20:14.319 --> 01:20:19.239
meeting the spirit of it within the language that

01:20:19.239 --> 01:20:22.800
Commissioner Wakefield proposed,

01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:26.800
but at the end of the day, we need to come to a vote.

01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:31.800
And continuing conversation about the economic well-being,

01:20:31.800 --> 01:20:37.319
the expenses, everything else, that's not actually our pur

01:20:37.319 --> 01:20:37.800
view.

01:20:37.800 --> 01:20:45.710
We need to vote on the variance, yes or no, and, oh, I'm

01:20:45.710 --> 01:20:46.800
sorry.

01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:48.800
That's completely understandable.

01:20:48.800 --> 01:20:51.800
I'll have Vice Chair Wakefield speak.

01:20:51.800 --> 01:20:57.050
I guess this is, because like we can also do, like

01:20:57.050 --> 01:21:00.149
conditions, I don't know if there's any conditions that you

01:21:00.149 --> 01:21:00.800
want to do,

01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:04.090
but is there any, would there be any conditions that you

01:21:04.090 --> 01:21:07.800
would be interested in applying that would swing your vote?

01:21:07.800 --> 01:21:09.800
Or is this?

01:21:09.800 --> 01:21:13.579
Well, no, because you have to approve with these conditions

01:21:13.579 --> 01:21:15.800
, but it would ultimately approve the, okay.

01:21:15.800 --> 01:21:20.800
So it's just, it's just no, and nothing can sway it.

01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:34.050
Okay. Member, I guess before we take the vote, Member Omsk

01:21:34.050 --> 01:21:37.010
is, did you have anything else that you wanted to add or

01:21:37.010 --> 01:21:38.800
comment on that?

01:21:38.800 --> 01:21:42.800
Well, I guess the way I'm phrasing the economic thing is

01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:47.800
they're not, as to one of the criteria,

01:21:47.800 --> 01:21:53.409
the statement about economic hardships being involved on it

01:21:53.409 --> 01:21:53.800
.

01:21:53.800 --> 01:22:01.800
And I can understand if I may, Councilman, excuse me.

01:22:01.800 --> 01:22:02.800
It's okay.

01:22:02.800 --> 01:22:10.539
Remember, Registrar's replies about there are several other

01:22:10.539 --> 01:22:17.800
gas stations that aren't, you know, fall in the same soup,

01:22:17.800 --> 01:22:22.800
because it has the concrete all the way around.

01:22:22.800 --> 01:22:29.000
But there also used to be, and it's not listed here, the

01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:32.800
thing about ex post facto laws.

01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:51.800
And, you know, to me the intent of, I'll just, never mind.

01:22:51.800 --> 01:22:58.149
So, okay, we have, we do have, I suppose, three options

01:22:58.149 --> 01:22:59.800
presented.

01:22:59.800 --> 01:23:04.800
We can either approve the variance, like as presented.

01:23:04.800 --> 01:23:09.720
We can either deny the variance that was presented for us,

01:23:09.720 --> 01:23:15.800
or we could postpone and listen.

01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:16.800
I'm sorry?

01:23:16.800 --> 01:23:19.800
Like what more information do you need?

01:23:19.800 --> 01:23:23.609
Okay, I guess with more information that's needed for the

01:23:23.609 --> 01:23:24.800
next meeting.

01:23:24.800 --> 01:23:30.800
Yeah, because if, I think what we do need the information

01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:33.800
is what type of signage they can put on their property,

01:23:33.800 --> 01:23:39.460
where they can, with that information, sway you one way or

01:23:39.460 --> 01:23:40.800
the other.

01:23:40.800 --> 01:23:42.800
If not, then they're, you know, what I'm doing.

01:23:42.800 --> 01:23:46.149
Well, if you told me that they could put a sign on their

01:23:46.149 --> 01:23:48.800
canopy, I would say no, but the sign doesn't.

01:23:48.800 --> 01:23:51.800
But if they could?

01:23:51.800 --> 01:23:53.800
I'm not sure that that would, I'm not sure.

01:23:53.800 --> 01:23:55.800
Okay.

01:23:55.800 --> 01:23:58.680
Because I don't think it would be fair to staff or the

01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:02.109
applicant or any of us on this board if we postpone to

01:24:02.109 --> 01:24:04.800
gather information.

01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:09.819
Like, if, like, if it is, because there's no guarantees in

01:24:09.819 --> 01:24:12.800
the case, they'd have to go through it.

01:24:12.800 --> 01:24:16.800
If that, even if they couldn't put a sign on their canopy,

01:24:16.800 --> 01:24:18.800
it would change your book,

01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:21.930
then I don't think there's a point in gathering that

01:24:21.930 --> 01:24:24.670
information if you're not absolutely certain that it would

01:24:24.670 --> 01:24:28.800
change your book from the uniqueness requirement.

01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:34.449
But would it, would the fact that they couldn't put it on

01:24:34.449 --> 01:24:38.800
their canopy be a unique feature to you?

01:24:38.800 --> 01:24:41.159
Again, if, maybe if it were presented, if that were an

01:24:41.159 --> 01:24:42.800
issue that we were talking about.

01:24:42.800 --> 01:24:43.800
Okay.

01:24:43.800 --> 01:24:45.800
Okay.

01:24:45.800 --> 01:24:47.800
Then I don't think we should postpone it.

01:24:47.800 --> 01:24:48.800
Okay.

01:24:48.800 --> 01:24:49.800
I don't think we should postpone it.

01:24:49.800 --> 01:24:51.800
There'd be no point to it.

01:24:51.800 --> 01:24:53.800
Okay.

01:24:53.800 --> 01:24:56.800
All right.

01:24:56.800 --> 01:24:58.800
Yes.

01:24:58.800 --> 01:25:08.800
I'm just going to dig out of the box.

01:25:08.800 --> 01:25:15.859
Is it possible to have, that they could have a variance for

01:25:15.859 --> 01:25:21.359
a monument sign based on if one could conform to the set

01:25:21.359 --> 01:25:27.800
back if it's at the opposite side of the property?

01:25:27.800 --> 01:25:33.800
Right now we have it, and it looks very nice there.

01:25:33.800 --> 01:25:38.130
I believe that would be asking for more evidence, which we

01:25:38.130 --> 01:25:41.800
've already closed the public meeting again.

01:25:41.800 --> 01:25:47.439
I also don't think, because right now it is member

01:25:47.439 --> 01:25:53.369
registers vote that is holding us up to where, that we

01:25:53.369 --> 01:25:55.800
cannot pass this variance.

01:25:55.800 --> 01:25:59.489
And I do not think that would change the uniqueness

01:25:59.489 --> 01:26:00.800
requirement.

01:26:00.800 --> 01:26:06.100
That it, member Rinsky, that it's, I've been trying to find

01:26:06.100 --> 01:26:11.159
ways to prove uniqueness to, and it has not satisfied, and

01:26:11.159 --> 01:26:13.800
I, we are at an impasse.

01:26:13.800 --> 01:26:15.800
I feel like I can vote against this.

01:26:15.800 --> 01:26:20.970
And I could, we, I don't know if we're allowed to do this

01:26:20.970 --> 01:26:26.409
postpone until we get another board member, so I, because

01:26:26.409 --> 01:26:31.289
either we have to vote to fail, to deny this, or we need to

01:26:31.289 --> 01:26:32.800
grant it.

01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:37.039
And they, the vote to deny is far easier to get than the

01:26:37.039 --> 01:26:40.800
vote to, the vote for varying, to grant it.

01:26:40.800 --> 01:26:47.899
I, I believe then if we can't, if we, I guess if gathering

01:26:47.899 --> 01:26:54.390
more evidence won't change any votes or minds, I suppose

01:26:54.390 --> 01:26:57.810
that the only way forward is to vote to deny the variance

01:26:57.810 --> 01:26:59.800
as presented by the council.

01:26:59.800 --> 01:27:02.800
I mean, we can still postpone.

01:27:02.800 --> 01:27:07.600
I mean, like the only two ways of things changing is if, I

01:27:07.600 --> 01:27:11.899
mean the only way it changes now is if we get a seventh

01:27:11.899 --> 01:27:17.420
board member, either an alternative or permanent one, and

01:27:17.420 --> 01:27:22.800
they decide to vote for this.

01:27:22.800 --> 01:27:26.220
But of course I do have one thing is like, well one, there

01:27:26.220 --> 01:27:29.710
's no guarantee that we would get a, a board member, and we

01:27:29.710 --> 01:27:32.800
also can't guarantee what, how, but we can.

01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:38.800
Yeah, exactly. That's.

01:27:38.800 --> 01:27:41.800
I mean, I guess.

01:27:41.800 --> 01:27:43.800
Chairman, I'd like to call the vote.

01:27:43.800 --> 01:27:45.800
Okay.

01:27:45.800 --> 01:27:48.800
All right.

01:27:48.800 --> 01:27:52.050
I move that the variance be denied as presented by staff

01:27:52.050 --> 01:27:55.380
because the applicant has not met the variance approval

01:27:55.380 --> 01:28:00.800
criteria listed in section 2.8.1(d)(1) specifically.

01:28:00.800 --> 01:28:03.800
Is there a motion?

01:28:03.800 --> 01:28:05.800
Is this the motion that I need to make at the top?

01:28:05.800 --> 01:28:07.800
Yes.

01:28:07.800 --> 01:28:08.800
That's basically what you just said.

01:28:08.800 --> 01:28:09.800
Sure.

01:28:09.800 --> 01:28:13.729
Okay, yeah, I, I would take a motion that the applicant has

01:28:13.729 --> 01:28:17.800
not met the requirements for the variance, that we deny.

01:28:17.800 --> 01:28:18.800
Okay.

01:28:18.800 --> 01:28:22.800
Is there a second?

01:28:22.800 --> 01:28:25.800
I'll make a second.

01:28:25.800 --> 01:28:29.960
All in favor of denying the variance, raise your hand and

01:28:29.960 --> 01:28:30.800
say aye.

01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:31.800
Aye.

01:28:31.800 --> 01:28:33.800
Aye.

01:28:33.800 --> 01:28:35.800
All opposed, raise your hand.

01:28:35.800 --> 01:28:37.800
Aye.

01:28:37.800 --> 01:28:38.800
Okay.

01:28:38.800 --> 01:28:44.800
The motion, all right, so the, it is four in favor.

01:28:44.800 --> 01:28:47.800
Or three in favor.

01:28:47.800 --> 01:28:48.800
Oh, okay.

01:28:48.800 --> 01:28:49.800
Four against.

01:28:49.800 --> 01:28:53.800
So the, one, two, three.

01:28:53.800 --> 01:28:57.800
There's only six, so it's three and three.

01:28:57.800 --> 01:28:58.800
Wait, so why is that?

01:28:58.800 --> 01:29:01.109
So it's, we might have to postpone this until we get to

01:29:01.109 --> 01:29:02.800
break the tie one way or the other.

01:29:02.800 --> 01:29:03.800
Okay.

01:29:03.800 --> 01:29:08.439
All right, so since the variation, since, I had better, I

01:29:08.439 --> 01:29:10.800
mean, deny the variation.

01:29:10.800 --> 01:29:18.300
Okay, and I would like to then, let's go ahead and postpone

01:29:18.300 --> 01:29:18.800
.

01:29:18.800 --> 01:29:19.800
Tell.

01:29:19.800 --> 01:29:20.800
Entertain a motion.

01:29:20.800 --> 01:29:21.800
Entertain a motion, postpone.

01:29:21.800 --> 01:29:24.800
Till we get another board member.

01:29:24.800 --> 01:29:26.800
Well, we don't want to be that specific.

01:29:26.800 --> 01:29:28.800
Till we get that tie breaker.

01:29:28.800 --> 01:29:31.800
I mean, I guess what would the phrasing be on this?

01:29:31.800 --> 01:29:34.819
We could do fair and day certain, fair and tell and event

01:29:34.819 --> 01:29:35.800
certain, so.

01:29:35.800 --> 01:29:39.800
Yeah, so tell.

01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:41.800
Tell and event certain.

01:29:41.800 --> 01:29:50.800
Yeah, the event is like, tell, I guess, we have to have,

01:29:50.800 --> 01:29:54.800
like, the only reason why we

01:29:54.800 --> 01:29:56.800
come back is we have a one way to decide.

01:29:56.800 --> 01:30:00.079
Either one of us has to decide to deny just to get out of

01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:01.800
the way, or we have to wait

01:30:01.800 --> 01:30:05.119
until we get another board member so they can decide, break

01:30:05.119 --> 01:30:05.800
the tie.

01:30:05.800 --> 01:30:08.750
And that would have to be the event, that we have seven

01:30:08.750 --> 01:30:09.800
board members.

01:30:09.800 --> 01:30:11.800
Or seven votes.

01:30:11.800 --> 01:30:13.800
That's the motion.

01:30:13.800 --> 01:30:14.800
Okay.

01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:15.800
Okay.

01:30:15.800 --> 01:30:20.050
I would like to entertain a motion to postpone until we

01:30:20.050 --> 01:30:22.800
have a seventh member on board.

01:30:22.800 --> 01:30:23.800
Sure.

01:30:23.800 --> 01:30:24.800
Okay.

01:30:24.800 --> 01:30:25.800
Any motions?

01:30:25.800 --> 01:30:26.800
Second.

01:30:26.800 --> 01:30:28.909
All in favor of postponing until we have a seventh member,

01:30:28.909 --> 01:30:29.800
you can say, "Hi."

01:30:29.800 --> 01:30:30.800
Hi.

01:30:30.800 --> 01:30:31.800
All opposed?

01:30:31.800 --> 01:30:32.800
Okay.

01:30:32.800 --> 01:30:33.800
The ayes have it.

01:30:33.800 --> 01:30:38.800
Six, zero, the, let's see.

01:30:38.800 --> 01:30:40.800
Oh, we don't want to step forward.

01:30:40.800 --> 01:30:41.800
Okay.

01:30:41.800 --> 01:30:45.510
So, given that we could not reach a decision today, this

01:30:45.510 --> 01:30:47.800
variance will be postponed until

01:30:47.800 --> 01:30:50.800
another member is added onto a board.

01:30:50.800 --> 01:30:51.800
Okay.

01:30:51.800 --> 01:30:52.800
Okay.

01:30:52.800 --> 01:31:06.130
So, now moving on to item number 3B is AA26-0003, hold a

01:31:06.130 --> 01:31:08.800
public hearing and consider an appeal

01:31:08.800 --> 01:31:11.529
and administrative decision regarding the existence of non-

01:31:11.529 --> 01:31:12.800
conforming rights with the

01:31:12.800 --> 01:31:15.800
building addressed at 910 North Mineral Road.

01:31:15.800 --> 01:31:18.750
The building is one of four structures located on

01:31:18.750 --> 01:31:21.800
approximately 3.5 acre property located

01:31:21.800 --> 01:31:25.489
on the east side of North Mineral Road, approximately 735

01:31:25.489 --> 01:31:27.800
feet north of Russell Newman Boulevard

01:31:27.800 --> 01:31:33.800
in the city of Denton, Texas, Dent County, Texas.

01:31:33.800 --> 01:31:37.939
The matter before the board is whether to affirm, reverse,

01:31:37.939 --> 01:31:39.800
and hold or impart or amend

01:31:39.800 --> 01:31:46.800
or modify a decision made by the administrative official.

01:31:46.800 --> 01:31:47.800
Okay.

01:31:47.800 --> 01:31:50.510
The decision of the administrative official is that non-con

01:31:50.510 --> 01:31:51.800
forming rights to continue

01:31:51.800 --> 01:31:56.800
a variety of industrial and storage uses do not exist.

01:31:56.800 --> 01:32:00.029
A vote of at least six members of the board is required to

01:32:00.029 --> 01:32:01.800
reverse the administrative

01:32:01.800 --> 01:32:02.800
decision.

01:32:02.800 --> 01:32:05.800
Okay, we've already been.

01:32:05.800 --> 01:32:06.800
Yeah.

01:32:06.800 --> 01:32:13.800
This is a, I think you can start with I now.

01:32:13.800 --> 01:32:14.800
I now open the hearing.

01:32:14.800 --> 01:32:18.800
All witnesses for this case have been previously sworn.

01:32:18.800 --> 01:32:21.710
Will the city please present its testimony, evidence, and

01:32:21.710 --> 01:32:23.800
arguments to support the administrative

01:32:23.800 --> 01:32:24.800
decision?

01:32:24.800 --> 01:32:25.800
Yes.

01:32:25.800 --> 01:32:30.800
I believe there was a little break.

01:32:30.800 --> 01:32:31.800
It's okay.

01:32:31.800 --> 01:32:34.800
Pause for a break if you'd like.

01:32:34.800 --> 01:32:38.800
Oh, I think with a five minute break, satisfy everyone.

01:32:38.800 --> 01:32:40.800
It would be lovely, thank you.

01:32:40.800 --> 01:32:41.800
Okay.

01:32:41.800 --> 01:32:45.800
I think we do have a break.

01:32:45.800 --> 01:32:49.800
Yeah, I think I have five minutes.

01:32:49.800 --> 01:32:51.800
Thank you so much.

01:32:51.800 --> 01:32:52.800
Thank you.

01:32:52.800 --> 01:32:54.800
The sun's gone down.

01:32:54.800 --> 01:32:58.800
Okay.

01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:02.010
We have returned from recess and have returned to our

01:33:02.010 --> 01:33:02.800
meeting.

01:33:02.800 --> 01:33:06.010
Yeah, really quickly, since I know a lot of you all are new

01:33:06.010 --> 01:33:07.800
to city boards and preliminary

01:33:07.800 --> 01:33:10.960
procedure and everything, since we've continued that one

01:33:10.960 --> 01:33:12.800
item, please don't talk about it,

01:33:12.800 --> 01:33:16.010
you know, with each other separately outside of the open

01:33:16.010 --> 01:33:16.800
meetings.

01:33:16.800 --> 01:33:20.020
Any discussion on that will be come back at your next

01:33:20.020 --> 01:33:20.800
meeting.

01:33:20.800 --> 01:33:23.800
Thank you for the clarification.

01:33:23.800 --> 01:33:24.800
Okay.

01:33:24.800 --> 01:33:28.800
Now, we'll go ahead reopen the meeting.

01:33:28.800 --> 01:33:30.800
All witnesses for the case have been previously sworn.

01:33:30.800 --> 01:33:33.100
Will the city please present its testimony, evidence, and

01:33:33.100 --> 01:33:34.800
arguments to support the administrative

01:33:34.800 --> 01:33:36.800
audit officials decision?

01:33:36.800 --> 01:33:39.670
Good evening, Chair, members of the board, Kim Izygurski,

01:33:39.670 --> 01:33:40.800
Planning Director.

01:33:40.800 --> 01:33:43.060
The case before you tonight is an appeal of an

01:33:43.060 --> 01:33:44.800
administrative determination regarding

01:33:44.800 --> 01:33:47.800
non-conforming rights.

01:33:47.800 --> 01:33:51.500
So a quick overview of the request before you and how it

01:33:51.500 --> 01:33:52.800
came to be here.

01:33:52.800 --> 01:33:55.800
The property owner submitted a zoning verification letter,

01:33:55.800 --> 01:33:57.800
specifically a request for a determination

01:33:57.800 --> 01:33:59.800
of non-conforming rights back in May.

01:33:59.800 --> 01:34:02.380
They submitted a letter and evidence to the city that was

01:34:02.380 --> 01:34:03.800
included in your backup that

01:34:03.800 --> 01:34:06.500
asserted that they had a variety of non-conforming uses

01:34:06.500 --> 01:34:07.800
that had been occurring on the subject

01:34:07.800 --> 01:34:10.560
of property and that they believed they had rights for

01:34:10.560 --> 01:34:13.800
those non-conforming uses to continue.

01:34:13.800 --> 01:34:16.140
And the uses that they described were a variety of

01:34:16.140 --> 01:34:18.800
contractor and storage-related uses.

01:34:18.800 --> 01:34:22.210
Those translated into the uses listed in the DDC would

01:34:22.210 --> 01:34:23.800
include outdoor storage, warehouse,

01:34:23.800 --> 01:34:26.949
and wholesale facility, low-impact manufacturing, and

01:34:26.949 --> 01:34:27.800
administrative, professional, and

01:34:27.800 --> 01:34:30.800
government office uses.

01:34:30.800 --> 01:34:33.529
Based on the evidence that they provided and the additional

01:34:33.529 --> 01:34:34.800
research that staff did, which

01:34:34.800 --> 01:34:36.659
I will walk you through in this presentation, the director

01:34:36.659 --> 01:34:37.800
determined that non-conforming

01:34:37.800 --> 01:34:41.029
rights did not exist for the subject building due to there

01:34:41.029 --> 01:34:42.800
being no records that we could

01:34:42.800 --> 01:34:46.569
find that any of those uses had legally been established

01:34:46.569 --> 01:34:48.800
since at least 2021.

01:34:48.800 --> 01:34:51.180
The owner therefore had the right to either use the

01:34:51.180 --> 01:34:52.800
property in accordance with the existing

01:34:52.800 --> 01:34:57.109
rural residential zoning or to apply for a zoning change to

01:34:57.109 --> 01:34:59.800
apply to change it to a district

01:34:59.800 --> 01:35:02.800
that would permit the desired mix of uses.

01:35:02.800 --> 01:35:06.279
The owner has now filed an appeal with that termination so

01:35:06.279 --> 01:35:07.800
that it is before you all to

01:35:07.800 --> 01:35:11.079
either affirm, reverse, or modify that determination this

01:35:11.079 --> 01:35:11.800
evening.

01:35:11.800 --> 01:35:13.800
Just a look at the subject property.

01:35:13.800 --> 01:35:16.800
It's outlined in black on the two maps on your screen.

01:35:16.800 --> 01:35:19.539
There are four buildings on the subject property with four

01:35:19.539 --> 01:35:20.800
different addresses.

01:35:20.800 --> 01:35:24.300
The original zoning verification letter request as well as

01:35:24.300 --> 01:35:25.800
the staff determination and this

01:35:25.800 --> 01:35:28.800
appeal are specific to the building circled in yellow.

01:35:28.800 --> 01:35:31.800
This address is 910 North May Hill.

01:35:31.800 --> 01:35:33.800
Just some additional history for you all.

01:35:33.800 --> 01:35:36.800
This property was annexed into the city in 2013.

01:35:36.800 --> 01:35:39.800
The buildings on site do predate annexation.

01:35:39.800 --> 01:35:43.020
At the time of annexation, in accordance with the code at

01:35:43.020 --> 01:35:44.800
that time, it was assigned the

01:35:44.800 --> 01:35:48.439
placeholder designation of rural residential or RD5X as it

01:35:48.439 --> 01:35:50.800
was called in the 2002 code.

01:35:50.800 --> 01:35:55.409
Since that time in 2019, the city updated our development

01:35:55.409 --> 01:35:56.800
code and that transitioned

01:35:56.800 --> 01:35:59.800
to a rural residential or RR zoning.

01:35:59.800 --> 01:36:04.109
That district under both codes was primarily intended to

01:36:04.109 --> 01:36:05.800
permit agricultural and low density

01:36:05.800 --> 01:36:11.800
residential uses and requires a five-acre minimum lot size.

01:36:11.800 --> 01:36:14.739
So just walking you through some of the aerial imagery and

01:36:14.739 --> 01:36:16.800
some of the history and research

01:36:16.800 --> 01:36:19.800
that staff did and the applicant provided, you can see here

01:36:19.800 --> 01:36:22.800
images from 2009, 2010, and

01:36:22.800 --> 01:36:23.800
2013.

01:36:23.800 --> 01:36:25.800
These all predate that annexation.

01:36:25.800 --> 01:36:29.609
As you can see, the subject building did or was constructed

01:36:29.609 --> 01:36:30.800
sometime between February

01:36:30.800 --> 01:36:32.800
of 2009 and February of 2010.

01:36:32.800 --> 01:36:37.420
The first record of utility services that the city has for

01:36:37.420 --> 01:36:39.800
this was in 2011.

01:36:39.800 --> 01:36:42.710
It does appear, as you can see in the 2013 imagery, that

01:36:42.710 --> 01:36:43.800
there was some sort of outdoor

01:36:43.800 --> 01:36:46.800
storage activity occurring on site at that time.

01:36:46.800 --> 01:36:49.329
However, we could find no records that would help us

01:36:49.329 --> 01:36:50.800
specify what that use was.

01:36:50.800 --> 01:36:53.310
An outdoor storage could be accessory to almost any non-

01:36:53.310 --> 01:36:54.800
residential use of the code.

01:36:54.800 --> 01:36:56.920
So that did not lead us to any conclusions to help us

01:36:56.920 --> 01:36:58.800
determine what the use would have been.

01:37:00.800 --> 01:37:01.800
Host annexation.

01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:05.800
You can see here images from 2015, 2017, and 2019.

01:37:05.800 --> 01:37:10.800
Again, you can see a variety of outdoor storage activities.

01:37:10.800 --> 01:37:13.640
Some vehicles parked on site, but we had no evidence during

01:37:13.640 --> 01:37:14.800
that time period again to

01:37:14.800 --> 01:37:17.199
establish what specific use may have been occurring in that

01:37:17.199 --> 01:37:17.800
building.

01:37:17.800 --> 01:37:20.739
We did again look through those utility records that the

01:37:20.739 --> 01:37:21.800
city has on file.

01:37:21.800 --> 01:37:24.069
We found that the utility account name change occurred in

01:37:24.069 --> 01:37:26.800
2018, but service was continued.

01:37:26.800 --> 01:37:29.930
And then you can see in 2019 that it does look like some

01:37:29.930 --> 01:37:31.800
sort of cleanup began to occur

01:37:31.800 --> 01:37:33.869
on the site, and there was a decrease in the amount of

01:37:33.869 --> 01:37:34.800
outdoor storage.

01:37:36.800 --> 01:37:39.800
Looking at the more recent imagery, 2021 through 2025,

01:37:39.800 --> 01:37:41.800
again you can see changes occur

01:37:41.800 --> 01:37:44.140
on site. The outdoor storage component does appear to have

01:37:44.140 --> 01:37:45.800
been removed at some point

01:37:45.800 --> 01:37:46.800
during that time.

01:37:46.800 --> 01:37:50.800
There is intermittent vehicle activity on site, but again

01:37:50.800 --> 01:37:51.800
parking alone, we can't determine

01:37:51.800 --> 01:37:54.449
what the use might be for that because vehicles could be

01:37:54.449 --> 01:37:55.800
present for this building or any

01:37:55.800 --> 01:37:56.800
of the other buildings on site.

01:37:56.800 --> 01:37:59.449
And again, we couldn't determine a specific use based on

01:37:59.449 --> 01:38:00.800
that information alone.

01:38:01.800 --> 01:38:04.140
Utility accounts during this time period, there was again a

01:38:04.140 --> 01:38:05.800
name change in 2020, and

01:38:05.800 --> 01:38:08.460
then the accounts for this building were terminated in

01:38:08.460 --> 01:38:10.800
April of 2021, and there's been no utilities

01:38:10.800 --> 01:38:13.800
to the site since that time that the staff had determined.

01:38:14.800 --> 01:38:17.840
So again, over this time period, we found no records that

01:38:17.840 --> 01:38:19.800
enabled us to say with any

01:38:19.800 --> 01:38:23.109
certainty what use or user may have been on that site, or

01:38:23.109 --> 01:38:24.800
that any use has occurred since

01:38:24.800 --> 01:38:26.800
utilities ended in 2021.

01:38:28.800 --> 01:38:33.029
So looking at the determination of nonconforming rights, it

01:38:33.029 --> 01:38:34.800
is incumbent upon the owner of

01:38:34.800 --> 01:38:37.979
the property to establish and provide the evidence to prove

01:38:37.979 --> 01:38:38.800
that they have nonconforming

01:38:38.800 --> 01:38:42.800
rights through that zoning verification letter process.

01:38:42.800 --> 01:38:45.930
So specifically what they provided and what was passed

01:38:45.930 --> 01:38:47.800
along to you all was a lease from

01:38:47.800 --> 01:38:50.710
2020 for a company named Esparza Custom Cabinets for two of

01:38:50.710 --> 01:38:52.800
the other buildings on site, address

01:38:52.800 --> 01:38:55.909
is 870, which is also sometimes called 920 in certain

01:38:55.909 --> 01:38:57.800
records, and 890 North Mayhill

01:38:57.800 --> 01:38:58.800
Road.

01:38:58.800 --> 01:39:00.800
That lease did not include the subject building at 910.

01:39:01.800 --> 01:39:04.130
They provided the listing showing that the property has

01:39:04.130 --> 01:39:05.800
been listed for lease from March

01:39:05.800 --> 01:39:07.800
of '24 through November of '26.

01:39:08.800 --> 01:39:11.739
They provided imagery through Google Street View that was

01:39:11.739 --> 01:39:12.800
passed to you all.

01:39:12.800 --> 01:39:14.520
Again, there was no visible signage or anything on the

01:39:14.520 --> 01:39:15.800
building that helped staff use that

01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:18.420
Street View imagery as opposed to aerials to say what use

01:39:18.420 --> 01:39:19.800
may have occurred there.

01:39:20.800 --> 01:39:23.310
And then they did provide tax records and ownership proving

01:39:23.310 --> 01:39:24.800
when they purchased the

01:39:24.800 --> 01:39:25.800
property in 2021.

01:39:26.800 --> 01:39:29.529
Their letter of intent did specify that a company named Es

01:39:29.529 --> 01:39:31.800
parza Custom Millwork relocated

01:39:31.800 --> 01:39:35.140
from the building address is 890 to the subject building in

01:39:35.140 --> 01:39:36.800
2023 and stayed there through

01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:38.800
January of 2026.

01:39:38.800 --> 01:39:40.800
However, there were no lease documents or anything else to

01:39:40.800 --> 01:39:41.800
help substantiate that.

01:39:43.800 --> 01:39:47.159
So staff, even though not required by code, does try to

01:39:47.159 --> 01:39:47.800
help people out.

01:39:47.800 --> 01:39:50.640
So we did additional research through our own records with

01:39:50.640 --> 01:39:52.800
what we had available through

01:39:52.800 --> 01:39:53.800
public records.

01:39:53.800 --> 01:39:56.380
Stitton County provided us with, again, a construction

01:39:56.380 --> 01:39:57.800
timeline for those buildings

01:39:57.800 --> 01:39:58.800
and the history of sales.

01:39:58.800 --> 01:40:00.729
We looked at the imagery that I've walked you through all

01:40:00.729 --> 01:40:01.800
this evening that showed it

01:40:01.800 --> 01:40:03.800
was constructed prior to annexation.

01:40:03.800 --> 01:40:06.800
There were outdoor storage and vehicular activity on site.

01:40:06.800 --> 01:40:09.460
But again, that alone was not enough for us to determine

01:40:09.460 --> 01:40:10.800
what use may have occurred prior

01:40:10.800 --> 01:40:11.800
to annexation.

01:40:12.800 --> 01:40:14.800
Again, we looked at the city utility records.

01:40:14.800 --> 01:40:17.239
We found three accounts for the subject building between

01:40:17.239 --> 01:40:20.800
2011 and 2021, but no utilities have

01:40:20.800 --> 01:40:22.800
been active to the building since 2021.

01:40:22.800 --> 01:40:25.539
And then we also searched through the city's certificate of

01:40:25.539 --> 01:40:27.800
occupancy and permitting records.

01:40:27.800 --> 01:40:31.050
We found no CO applications for any use within the subject

01:40:31.050 --> 01:40:32.800
building in the 13 years that

01:40:32.800 --> 01:40:33.800
it's been in the city.

01:40:33.800 --> 01:40:37.449
And we found only one CO for the entire property, and that

01:40:37.449 --> 01:40:38.800
was for the building addressed as

01:40:38.800 --> 01:40:39.800
936.

01:40:42.800 --> 01:40:47.510
So nonconforming rights can only exist if a use was legally

01:40:47.510 --> 01:40:49.800
established.

01:40:49.800 --> 01:40:51.800
That's the basis that staff was operating from.

01:40:52.800 --> 01:40:56.300
We know only the name of one business that has reported to

01:40:56.300 --> 01:40:58.800
have been operational in this

01:40:58.800 --> 01:41:01.289
building, that was in the owner's zoning verification

01:41:01.289 --> 01:41:02.800
letter application, as well as

01:41:02.800 --> 01:41:04.800
reiterated in their appeal information.

01:41:04.800 --> 01:41:07.050
And that's not as far as a custom cabinet or custom mill

01:41:07.050 --> 01:41:07.800
work company.

01:41:07.800 --> 01:41:10.470
But we again have no records provided by the applicant to

01:41:10.470 --> 01:41:12.800
show us that there was ever a

01:41:12.800 --> 01:41:14.779
lease of the building or any proof that they operated there

01:41:14.779 --> 01:41:15.800
during that time period.

01:41:16.800 --> 01:41:19.550
The cabinet manufacturing business was determined to have

01:41:19.550 --> 01:41:21.800
never been legally established in

01:41:21.800 --> 01:41:24.109
the building because they had no utility services in the

01:41:24.109 --> 01:41:24.800
time period.

01:41:24.800 --> 01:41:26.800
They were said to be operational.

01:41:26.800 --> 01:41:29.560
So even if that building was only utilized for storage, the

01:41:29.560 --> 01:41:31.800
city's adopted building codes

01:41:31.800 --> 01:41:34.090
would require that it have utilities to it for plumbing and

01:41:34.090 --> 01:41:34.800
ventilation.

01:41:34.800 --> 01:41:37.250
So it had an electrical water service and those sorts of

01:41:37.250 --> 01:41:37.800
things.

01:41:37.800 --> 01:41:41.000
And we again have no records that utilities were active to

01:41:41.000 --> 01:41:41.800
the building during the three

01:41:41.800 --> 01:41:43.800
years it was said to be there.

01:41:43.800 --> 01:41:46.800
Furthermore, there was no CO application ever made.

01:41:46.800 --> 01:41:49.270
So there was no application for the city to review or we

01:41:49.270 --> 01:41:50.800
would have flagged at that time

01:41:50.800 --> 01:41:52.800
that you have to have utilities in order to get a CO.

01:41:52.800 --> 01:41:55.420
So those were the premises that we used to determine it was

01:41:55.420 --> 01:41:57.800
never a legally established business.

01:41:57.800 --> 01:42:00.470
Therefore, we determined no nonconforming rights could

01:42:00.470 --> 01:42:01.800
exist because there was not a

01:42:01.800 --> 01:42:03.800
lawful establishment of the use.

01:42:03.800 --> 01:42:06.449
That again leads to either the building could be used in

01:42:06.449 --> 01:42:07.800
accordance with RR zoning or the

01:42:07.800 --> 01:42:10.100
owner could apply for a zoning change to a district that

01:42:10.100 --> 01:42:11.800
would allow the variety of uses

01:42:11.800 --> 01:42:13.800
they intend to do.

01:42:13.800 --> 01:42:17.359
Going back to the state laws that were cited in the appeal

01:42:17.359 --> 01:42:19.800
application and that relate to

01:42:19.800 --> 01:42:23.470
nonconformities, local government code section 43 again

01:42:23.470 --> 01:42:24.800
would have obligated the city to

01:42:24.800 --> 01:42:28.010
allow anything legally established prior to annexation to

01:42:28.010 --> 01:42:30.800
continue following annexation.

01:42:30.800 --> 01:42:33.340
As I presented to you this evening, we had a variety of

01:42:33.340 --> 01:42:34.800
aerial imagery available to us

01:42:34.800 --> 01:42:37.390
from this time, but we found no evidence through that

01:42:37.390 --> 01:42:38.800
imagery to tell us what use might have

01:42:38.800 --> 01:42:40.800
occurred within the building.

01:42:40.800 --> 01:42:43.449
The appellant did not provide us with or assert a chain of

01:42:43.449 --> 01:42:44.800
uses that were said to have occurred

01:42:44.800 --> 01:42:48.399
between annexation and 2023 when the first listed use that

01:42:48.399 --> 01:42:49.800
they named as far as their

01:42:49.800 --> 01:42:52.149
custom cabinets was reported to have began using the

01:42:52.149 --> 01:42:52.800
building.

01:42:52.800 --> 01:42:55.640
So therefore, staff had no way to reasonably conclude what

01:42:55.640 --> 01:42:56.800
use, if any, the city might have

01:42:56.800 --> 01:43:01.800
been obligated to allow continued since annexation.

01:43:01.800 --> 01:43:04.840
Section 211 of the local government code requires that the

01:43:04.840 --> 01:43:06.800
city allow a person to continue using

01:43:06.800 --> 01:43:09.569
their property in a manner that's nonconforming following a

01:43:09.569 --> 01:43:10.800
zoning or code change.

01:43:10.800 --> 01:43:14.170
It establishes assertion that that does not apply in this

01:43:14.170 --> 01:43:15.800
case because there was not illegally

01:43:15.800 --> 01:43:16.800
established use.

01:43:16.800 --> 01:43:19.430
If we had records of illegally established use, then we

01:43:19.430 --> 01:43:21.800
would be looking to what was spoken

01:43:21.800 --> 01:43:23.800
to in your work section was their intent to abandon.

01:43:23.800 --> 01:43:26.390
We recognize that the owner says in their affidavit that

01:43:26.390 --> 01:43:27.800
they had no intent to abandon

01:43:27.800 --> 01:43:31.880
the use, but again, we've determined there was no lawfully

01:43:31.880 --> 01:43:33.800
established use to have had

01:43:33.800 --> 01:43:37.800
nonconforming rights, so that would not apply.

01:43:37.800 --> 01:43:40.390
The decision criteria before you all this evening are to

01:43:40.390 --> 01:43:41.800
look at the general criteria

01:43:41.800 --> 01:43:44.489
and the development code for all applications, the facts

01:43:44.489 --> 01:43:45.800
stated in the application presented

01:43:45.800 --> 01:43:49.250
by the Director of the Appellate, and requirements of all

01:43:49.250 --> 01:43:51.800
applicable standards of the DDC.

01:43:51.800 --> 01:43:54.800
So I'll walk you through all of those briefly.

01:43:54.800 --> 01:43:58.800
The DDC has 13 general criteria for all applications.

01:43:58.800 --> 01:44:01.800
Most of those are site design specific, so they're not germ

01:44:01.800 --> 01:44:02.800
ane to this request related

01:44:02.800 --> 01:44:04.890
to nonconforming rights in the existing building because

01:44:04.890 --> 01:44:06.800
there's no site changes or anything

01:44:06.800 --> 01:44:08.800
else being discussed this evening.

01:44:08.800 --> 01:44:11.439
For the criteria that are applicable, they relate to the

01:44:11.439 --> 01:44:12.800
comprehensive plan and the development

01:44:12.800 --> 01:44:14.800
code being followed.

01:44:14.800 --> 01:44:17.430
Staff found that the determination that was made respects

01:44:17.430 --> 01:44:18.800
the purpose and intent of the

01:44:18.800 --> 01:44:22.420
city having nonconforming regulations and the intent of the

01:44:22.420 --> 01:44:23.800
RR zoning to serve as a

01:44:23.800 --> 01:44:27.189
placeholder for those properties that are annexed into the

01:44:27.189 --> 01:44:28.800
city until such time as the

01:44:28.800 --> 01:44:31.800
owner comes forward with the zoning request.

01:44:31.800 --> 01:44:35.520
The appellate's request to permit the variety of uses that

01:44:35.520 --> 01:44:36.800
were named in their application

01:44:36.800 --> 01:44:39.319
would not be consistent with the city's adopted codes and

01:44:39.319 --> 01:44:41.800
limitations for nonconforming uses.

01:44:41.800 --> 01:44:44.500
The code specifies that the use within a building that's

01:44:44.500 --> 01:44:45.800
nonconforming cannot be spread to

01:44:45.800 --> 01:44:49.300
other buildings on site so they couldn't just change uses

01:44:49.300 --> 01:44:50.800
between buildings.

01:44:50.800 --> 01:44:53.520
And furthermore, you're only allowed to change a noncon

01:44:53.520 --> 01:44:54.800
forming use if it's going to something

01:44:54.800 --> 01:44:57.539
that is less, determined to be less intensive and have less

01:44:57.539 --> 01:44:59.800
impact on the neighboring properties.

01:44:59.800 --> 01:45:02.329
So having just the ability to change freely between the

01:45:02.329 --> 01:45:03.800
mixture of uses they proposed

01:45:03.800 --> 01:45:05.800
would not be in alignment with those.

01:45:05.800 --> 01:45:08.989
The proper procedure in this case would be for them to

01:45:08.989 --> 01:45:10.800
apply for a zoning change to a

01:45:10.800 --> 01:45:13.949
district that permits the mixture of uses they would like

01:45:13.949 --> 01:45:15.800
to have occur on the property.

01:45:15.800 --> 01:45:18.739
The second criteria is the board's consideration of the

01:45:18.739 --> 01:45:20.800
facts stated in the application as presented.

01:45:20.800 --> 01:45:23.640
In this case, the documentation was all provided to you

01:45:23.640 --> 01:45:25.800
from the applicant's original zoning

01:45:25.800 --> 01:45:29.649
verification letter, staff's determination, as well as

01:45:29.649 --> 01:45:30.800
their appeal.

01:45:30.800 --> 01:45:33.680
Staff found in that the appellant did not demonstrate the

01:45:33.680 --> 01:45:35.800
legal establishment of any

01:45:35.800 --> 01:45:38.229
of the desired uses within this building throughout the

01:45:38.229 --> 01:45:39.800
history as we've looked at tonight.

01:45:39.800 --> 01:45:42.699
And then again, staff did that further research and also

01:45:42.699 --> 01:45:44.800
found that there was no evidence

01:45:44.800 --> 01:45:47.619
of a legally established use, again, because there have

01:45:47.619 --> 01:45:48.800
been no COs applied for for the

01:45:48.800 --> 01:45:49.800
building.

01:45:49.800 --> 01:45:52.699
Furthermore, no utility since 2021 to the building means

01:45:52.699 --> 01:45:53.800
they could not have had a CO

01:45:53.800 --> 01:45:55.720
during that time period anyway because you have to have

01:45:55.720 --> 01:45:57.800
ventilation and plumbing to a building.

01:45:57.800 --> 01:46:01.619
And then the third criteria are the requirements and intent

01:46:01.619 --> 01:46:03.800
of the applicable standards from

01:46:03.800 --> 01:46:06.800
the DDC compared to the written decision being appealed.

01:46:06.800 --> 01:46:09.520
In this case, the DDC standards related to non-conformities

01:46:09.520 --> 01:46:10.800
are consistent with state law.

01:46:10.800 --> 01:46:14.039
They exist for the purpose of limiting the continued

01:46:14.039 --> 01:46:15.800
existence of and financial investment

01:46:15.800 --> 01:46:18.369
into non-conformities to preserve the integrity of the city

01:46:18.369 --> 01:46:19.800
's adopted plans and ordinances

01:46:19.800 --> 01:46:22.380
and allow the city to grow and develop over time as

01:46:22.380 --> 01:46:23.800
councils envisioned.

01:46:23.800 --> 01:46:26.800
Staff determined that no legal non-conformity exists.

01:46:26.800 --> 01:46:29.439
Therefore, it is consistent with the intent of the DDC to

01:46:29.439 --> 01:46:30.800
not allow them to establish

01:46:30.800 --> 01:46:32.800
new uses along the property.

01:46:32.800 --> 01:46:36.369
Allowing the variety of uses, as they've requested again,

01:46:36.369 --> 01:46:38.800
would have the effect of changing the

01:46:38.800 --> 01:46:40.689
zoning of the property without following the legal due

01:46:40.689 --> 01:46:42.800
process of the public hearing required

01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:43.800
for zoning change.

01:46:43.800 --> 01:46:46.329
So it would be consistent with the intent of the DDC for

01:46:46.329 --> 01:46:47.800
the owner to therefore apply

01:46:47.800 --> 01:46:50.359
for that zoning change and go through that public hearing

01:46:50.359 --> 01:46:51.800
process to get to a district

01:46:51.800 --> 01:46:54.800
that would permit the mix of uses they desire.

01:46:54.800 --> 01:46:57.279
The options before you this evening were outlined in your

01:46:57.279 --> 01:46:57.800
backup.

01:46:57.800 --> 01:46:59.949
I do have them here on the screen so that you all can

01:46:59.949 --> 01:47:01.800
reverse them in your deliberations.

01:47:01.800 --> 01:47:05.970
I won't read them aloud, but in short, you can affirm the

01:47:05.970 --> 01:47:07.800
decision or the director's

01:47:07.800 --> 01:47:10.300
determination that there are no non-conforming rights for

01:47:10.300 --> 01:47:11.800
the variety of uses that passed.

01:47:11.800 --> 01:47:14.359
You can reverse the director's determination whole or in

01:47:14.359 --> 01:47:14.800
part.

01:47:14.800 --> 01:47:17.619
If you choose that option, staff would request that you

01:47:17.619 --> 01:47:19.800
would at least specify which use

01:47:19.800 --> 01:47:22.800
you find to have non-conforming rights on the property

01:47:22.800 --> 01:47:23.800
because again, we cannot allow

01:47:23.800 --> 01:47:26.270
them to change between uses that have varying degrees of

01:47:26.270 --> 01:47:26.800
impact.

01:47:26.800 --> 01:47:29.800
We need to focus that on one use.

01:47:29.800 --> 01:47:31.729
And then you also have the option to amend or modify the

01:47:31.729 --> 01:47:35.800
determination or attached conditions.

01:47:35.800 --> 01:47:39.100
So this was outlined in your backup, but just to further

01:47:39.100 --> 01:47:40.800
provide guidance to you all as to

01:47:40.800 --> 01:47:43.460
what staff is requesting, our initial request would be

01:47:43.460 --> 01:47:45.800
affirming the director's decision.

01:47:45.800 --> 01:47:48.300
That's option one on the list of options that you have

01:47:48.300 --> 01:47:48.800
there.

01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:51.390
In this case, the owner would still have the ability to use

01:47:51.390 --> 01:47:52.800
their property in accordance

01:47:52.800 --> 01:47:54.800
with RR or again, apply for a zoning change.

01:47:54.800 --> 01:47:57.949
That would be proper procedure to give themselves the

01:47:57.949 --> 01:48:00.800
rights to do the mixture of uses they desire.

01:48:00.800 --> 01:48:03.729
If you do disagree with staff and find that there are non-

01:48:03.729 --> 01:48:06.800
conforming rights for a use

01:48:06.800 --> 01:48:09.529
of this building, then staff again would request that you

01:48:09.529 --> 01:48:11.800
specify which use has the legal non-conforming

01:48:11.800 --> 01:48:15.350
right to continue because we cannot just allow the free for

01:48:15.350 --> 01:48:16.800
all switching between uses that

01:48:16.800 --> 01:48:20.800
they listed in their zoning verification application.

01:48:20.800 --> 01:48:23.130
Third, I would point to you all that the appellant

01:48:23.130 --> 01:48:25.800
requested, if you do find that there are

01:48:25.800 --> 01:48:27.840
non-conforming rights, they requested that delay of

01:48:27.840 --> 01:48:29.800
discontinuance be made because they

01:48:29.800 --> 01:48:32.359
did provide proof that they marketed the property for six

01:48:32.359 --> 01:48:33.800
months within the last year.

01:48:33.800 --> 01:48:36.300
So if you choose to go that route, then that's also an

01:48:36.300 --> 01:48:37.800
option before you is to grant them

01:48:37.800 --> 01:48:40.800
that one year delay as they've requested.

01:48:40.800 --> 01:48:43.800
And at this time, I will pause and answer any questions.

01:48:43.800 --> 01:48:45.800
Thank you for presenting.

01:48:45.800 --> 01:48:50.800
Do any board members have any questions for this witness?

01:48:50.800 --> 01:48:54.800
So it's just this one building on this property that were

01:48:54.800 --> 01:48:54.800
...

01:48:54.800 --> 01:48:58.060
Correct. Because non-conforming uses are not allowed to be

01:48:58.060 --> 01:49:00.800
transferred between buildings essentially,

01:49:00.800 --> 01:49:04.159
and they only requested that zoning verification letter

01:49:04.159 --> 01:49:05.800
specific to the building at 910.

01:49:05.800 --> 01:49:06.800
That is the only...

01:49:06.800 --> 01:49:09.359
Okay, so this is how it came to the city's attention is

01:49:09.359 --> 01:49:12.800
they had to ask for a zoning verification letter.

01:49:12.800 --> 01:49:16.529
Correct. They initially, I believe, called our front

01:49:16.529 --> 01:49:18.800
counter asking about establishing

01:49:18.800 --> 01:49:20.800
an industrial type use on the property.

01:49:20.800 --> 01:49:23.800
They were told it looks like this is not conforming.

01:49:23.800 --> 01:49:27.260
You need to go through this process to determine if you

01:49:27.260 --> 01:49:29.800
have non-conforming rights or not.

01:49:29.800 --> 01:49:34.800
And for both the current zoning and the previous zoning,

01:49:34.800 --> 01:49:38.800
none of the uses were allowed,

01:49:38.800 --> 01:49:41.800
but it was annexed in 2013.

01:49:41.800 --> 01:49:44.949
Correct. So had there been proof at that time of what use

01:49:44.949 --> 01:49:45.800
was occurring,

01:49:45.800 --> 01:49:48.350
then at that time we would have been obligated to allow

01:49:48.350 --> 01:49:50.800
that use to continue even if it was not approved.

01:49:50.800 --> 01:49:51.800
Okay.

01:49:51.800 --> 01:49:53.800
But we have the history to know what that was.

01:49:53.800 --> 01:49:54.800
Okay.

01:49:54.800 --> 01:49:55.800
Okay, and the next?

01:49:55.800 --> 01:50:00.699
And then if I understand when it was annexed, you use as a

01:50:00.699 --> 01:50:04.800
placeholder what you now consider RR.

01:50:04.800 --> 01:50:09.460
And a requirement for something to be an RR has to have

01:50:09.460 --> 01:50:10.800
five acres.

01:50:10.800 --> 01:50:16.800
And if I heard correctly and have read in the presentation,

01:50:16.800 --> 01:50:21.939
we have four buildings that are a piece of property that's

01:50:21.939 --> 01:50:25.800
like 3.2 or they're about acres.

01:50:25.800 --> 01:50:32.180
So how can RR, other than being used as a placeholder until

01:50:32.180 --> 01:50:34.800
somebody figures out what else it's going to do,

01:50:34.800 --> 01:50:42.500
how can that be utilized as the zoning specification for

01:50:42.500 --> 01:50:49.800
that specific building if no variance is allowed?

01:50:49.800 --> 01:50:52.449
Sure. So at the time of annexation, again, they're allowed

01:50:52.449 --> 01:50:53.800
to continue with what they were doing

01:50:53.800 --> 01:50:55.800
if they were doing something legal at that time.

01:50:55.800 --> 01:51:01.550
Otherwise, the code since 2002 has assigned the RR as a

01:51:01.550 --> 01:51:02.800
placeholder

01:51:02.800 --> 01:51:05.739
solely because when something's annexed, it has to have a

01:51:05.739 --> 01:51:06.800
zoning district.

01:51:06.800 --> 01:51:08.880
There's no analysis done at that time to determine what

01:51:08.880 --> 01:51:09.800
zoning is appropriate

01:51:09.800 --> 01:51:12.340
because zoning has to follow the dual public care and

01:51:12.340 --> 01:51:12.800
process.

01:51:12.800 --> 01:51:14.979
So that's incumbent upon an owner after annexation to

01:51:14.979 --> 01:51:17.800
figure out what it is they want to do with their property

01:51:17.800 --> 01:51:18.800
and then apply for that zoning.

01:51:18.800 --> 01:51:21.800
Because you are correct, they don't have sufficient acreage

01:51:21.800 --> 01:51:21.800
.

01:51:21.800 --> 01:51:23.460
They could not plant this property or redevelop this

01:51:23.460 --> 01:51:24.800
property under the current zoning.

01:51:24.800 --> 01:51:28.800
They would have to change the zoning to continue using it.

01:51:28.800 --> 01:51:32.859
And I know that we're looking at this property per se

01:51:32.859 --> 01:51:34.800
without the other three,

01:51:34.800 --> 01:51:39.489
but the same thing, that same placeholder applies for the

01:51:39.489 --> 01:51:40.800
other three.

01:51:40.800 --> 01:51:58.800
So I guess in order to do what you just further elaborated,

01:51:58.800 --> 01:52:02.800
this whole process for this one specific building

01:52:02.800 --> 01:52:13.920
would have to go through the zoning request and how, I

01:52:13.920 --> 01:52:14.800
guess I can't figure out,

01:52:14.800 --> 01:52:21.510
how can one isolate one building on perhaps a piece of

01:52:21.510 --> 01:52:26.800
property that's one contingent property.

01:52:26.800 --> 01:52:33.989
Okay, if I've got my, bear with me, okay, because I've got

01:52:33.989 --> 01:52:35.800
a piece of land

01:52:35.800 --> 01:52:46.800
and it's zoned as having single family residential.

01:52:46.800 --> 01:52:53.159
And then I put more than one building on it that's quote, "

01:52:53.159 --> 01:52:54.800
nonconforming"

01:52:54.800 --> 01:52:58.729
because there's only one property, piece of property that's

01:52:58.729 --> 01:53:02.800
got a certificate of occupancy.

01:53:02.800 --> 01:53:09.510
The others are just quote, "big shelves" or storage things

01:53:09.510 --> 01:53:10.800
or that.

01:53:10.800 --> 01:53:15.310
Are those other buildings, you know, how do you take them

01:53:15.310 --> 01:53:19.800
out without dissecting the property?

01:53:19.800 --> 01:53:23.520
I think I follow what you're asking and nonconforming is as

01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:24.800
you want to bring it to your work,

01:53:24.800 --> 01:53:27.409
it's a very nuanced. The DDC distinguishes between noncon

01:53:27.409 --> 01:53:29.800
forming site features like parking

01:53:29.800 --> 01:53:34.029
or accessory features on a building or on a property, not

01:53:34.029 --> 01:53:37.159
structures, which it sounds like is more what you're

01:53:37.159 --> 01:53:37.800
describing,

01:53:37.800 --> 01:53:40.739
and then nonconforming uses. All of them have different

01:53:40.739 --> 01:53:41.800
regulations that apply.

01:53:41.800 --> 01:53:44.960
In this case, their letter that they originally requested a

01:53:44.960 --> 01:53:47.800
determination for was specific to one of four buildings.

01:53:47.800 --> 01:53:51.159
And because the use, the nonconforming use is what was in

01:53:51.159 --> 01:53:53.800
question, we looked at those nonconforming use regulations.

01:53:53.800 --> 01:53:56.979
And those use regulations are specific to an individual

01:53:56.979 --> 01:53:59.800
building. They do not, for example,

01:53:59.800 --> 01:54:03.960
if you had a legally nonconforming gas station in one

01:54:03.960 --> 01:54:07.800
building and you wanted to open another part of the

01:54:07.800 --> 01:54:07.800
business

01:54:07.800 --> 01:54:10.520
and another building on the site, you could not do that if

01:54:10.520 --> 01:54:11.800
it was nonconforming.

01:54:11.800 --> 01:54:14.140
You would have to change the zoning to something that

01:54:14.140 --> 01:54:14.800
permits that,

01:54:14.800 --> 01:54:17.739
or you would have to select a different use that conforms

01:54:17.739 --> 01:54:18.800
with the zoning.

01:54:18.800 --> 01:54:23.319
For use only, we have to parse between buildings, the way

01:54:23.319 --> 01:54:24.800
they go is random.

01:54:24.800 --> 01:54:32.800
I couldn't determine, you know, looking at it, is there any

01:54:32.800 --> 01:54:37.800
chain link or anything that defines the property

01:54:37.800 --> 01:54:41.979
other than the fact that you got your four buildings on

01:54:41.979 --> 01:54:45.800
there? I couldn't with looking at any of it.

01:54:45.800 --> 01:54:49.180
You know, they're saying, okay, there's lines drawn, but

01:54:49.180 --> 01:54:52.800
does that represent a fencing?

01:54:52.800 --> 01:54:55.060
The lines that you're seeing here, is that what you're

01:54:55.060 --> 01:54:55.800
referencing?

01:54:55.800 --> 01:54:56.800
Yeah.

01:54:56.800 --> 01:54:59.229
Those are fences that were installed, it looks like

01:54:59.229 --> 01:55:01.800
sometime between 2023 and 2025.

01:55:01.800 --> 01:55:03.800
I did not find permit records for those.

01:55:03.800 --> 01:55:04.800
Okay.

01:55:04.800 --> 01:55:05.800
There are fences there.

01:55:05.800 --> 01:55:11.329
So we're looking at how to handle one building within a

01:55:11.329 --> 01:55:16.800
parcel that is fenced in, if I am correct.

01:55:16.800 --> 01:55:19.800
Okay, thank you.

01:55:19.800 --> 01:55:24.979
Are there any other questions from our witness from the

01:55:24.979 --> 01:55:25.800
city?

01:55:25.800 --> 01:55:26.800
Okay.

01:55:26.800 --> 01:55:27.800
Okay, we're done.

01:55:27.800 --> 01:55:28.800
Oh.

01:55:28.800 --> 01:55:30.800
No, no, no, that's all right.

01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:31.800
Okay.

01:55:31.800 --> 01:55:32.800
Just one check.

01:55:32.800 --> 01:55:33.800
Okay.

01:55:33.800 --> 01:55:35.800
I think that's a better answer by the applicant.

01:55:35.800 --> 01:55:36.800
Okay.

01:55:36.800 --> 01:55:39.800
We'll be, all right, thank you for your presentation.

01:55:39.800 --> 01:55:43.800
Will the appellant please present his testimony, evidence,

01:55:43.800 --> 01:55:56.800
and arguments that support the appeal?

01:55:56.800 --> 01:55:58.800
Good afternoon, board.

01:55:58.800 --> 01:56:03.800
Thank you for taking this time to hear our appeal.

01:56:03.800 --> 01:56:05.800
Thank you for staying late.

01:56:05.800 --> 01:56:09.000
I used to work for the city of Dallas, and I need this

01:56:09.000 --> 01:56:10.800
attorney, so I don't have long

01:56:10.800 --> 01:56:11.800
to be seen now.

01:56:11.800 --> 01:56:13.800
So I'm going to be as brief as possible.

01:56:13.800 --> 01:56:17.029
I also have two witnesses who will be able to answer your

01:56:17.029 --> 01:56:18.800
more specific questions.

01:56:18.800 --> 01:56:21.619
First off, my name is Steve McBath, I'm the general counsel

01:56:21.619 --> 01:56:23.800
, and I'm on behalf of the

01:56:23.800 --> 01:56:27.800
appellant and property under 24K.

01:56:27.800 --> 01:56:31.800
This is the appeal from the planning divisions, May 27th,

01:56:31.800 --> 01:56:33.800
administrative determination for

01:56:33.800 --> 01:56:38.800
nonconforming use, that exists at 910 Mayfield Road.

01:56:38.800 --> 01:56:41.600
We ask respectfully that the board reverse that

01:56:41.600 --> 01:56:43.800
determination or in the alternative to

01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:48.659
delay any finding of discontinuance under Denton

01:56:48.659 --> 01:56:52.800
Development Code 1.512-F.

01:56:52.800 --> 01:56:56.239
First, I'd like to tell you that this is one property, and

01:56:56.239 --> 01:56:57.800
there are four buildings on

01:56:57.800 --> 01:57:00.800
it, but it is one continuous property.

01:57:00.800 --> 01:57:04.710
It has been in its exact same use, and it's still being

01:57:04.710 --> 01:57:07.800
used the way it was from 2011.

01:57:07.800 --> 01:57:15.800
The buildings were originally put up between 2009 and 2011.

01:57:15.800 --> 01:57:21.010
So building 910 has been assigned, and it was assigned back

01:57:21.010 --> 01:57:23.800
just for electricity purposes,

01:57:23.800 --> 01:57:28.319
not because it was being parceled out for them, but this

01:57:28.319 --> 01:57:31.800
was strictly for electricity purposes.

01:57:31.800 --> 01:57:35.659
There have been tenants in all of the buildings, except

01:57:35.659 --> 01:57:37.800
this last one, which we spent the last

01:57:37.800 --> 01:57:40.800
two years trying to get this person out.

01:57:40.800 --> 01:57:44.989
This became an issue with the city, or brought to the city

01:57:44.989 --> 01:57:46.800
's attention when a new CO was

01:57:46.800 --> 01:57:52.800
sought after in April of this year, April/Romain.

01:57:52.800 --> 01:57:56.880
There was not a previous CO on this property because it

01:57:56.880 --> 01:58:00.800
dates back to 2011, pre-annexation.

01:58:00.800 --> 01:58:05.159
So the city of Denton could not have even given a CO in

01:58:05.159 --> 01:58:09.800
this situation because of the ETJ.

01:58:09.800 --> 01:58:14.340
Second, the city's own findings confirm commercial and

01:58:14.340 --> 01:58:16.800
storage activity has been

01:58:16.800 --> 01:58:21.970
existing on this building going all the way through this

01:58:21.970 --> 01:58:22.800
year.

01:58:22.800 --> 01:58:26.369
This use has not been abandoned, it has not been discontin

01:58:26.369 --> 01:58:30.800
ued, and nothing that would

01:58:30.800 --> 01:58:33.800
extinguish the nonconforming rights.

01:58:33.800 --> 01:58:37.800
In fact, nonconforming use is a zoning concept.

01:58:37.800 --> 01:58:42.439
The Supreme Court says it is land use, impermissible for

01:58:42.439 --> 01:58:44.800
current zoning regulations, but

01:58:44.800 --> 01:58:48.300
allowed because it was legal at the time that the

01:58:48.300 --> 01:58:50.800
restriction was not in place.

01:58:50.800 --> 01:58:57.729
This land has been used legally since 2011 and continuously

01:58:57.729 --> 01:59:00.800
since 2011, up until the

01:59:00.800 --> 01:59:11.800
time that it was purchased in March of 2023 by 24K.

01:59:11.800 --> 01:59:18.800
And again, as you mentioned, this is a 3.5-acre tract.

01:59:18.800 --> 01:59:21.710
If we cannot do this, then we're stuck with a piece of

01:59:21.710 --> 01:59:23.800
property that no one can do anything

01:59:23.800 --> 01:59:29.800
with because it's too small to develop into anything else.

01:59:29.800 --> 01:59:35.819
Rezoning would take probably a minimum of two years, I

01:59:35.819 --> 01:59:38.800
guess, and it's already cost.

01:59:38.800 --> 01:59:42.409
We're not asking for anything to be done that is not being

01:59:42.409 --> 01:59:43.800
done right now or has been done

01:59:43.800 --> 01:59:44.800
in the past.

01:59:44.800 --> 01:59:48.670
We're just asking that we be allowed to continue in the use

01:59:48.670 --> 01:59:49.800
of the property as it's being

01:59:49.800 --> 01:59:51.800
used right now.

01:59:51.800 --> 01:59:57.079
In the alternative, we will ask that the city consider

01:59:57.079 --> 01:59:59.800
owning it off for a period of one

01:59:59.800 --> 02:00:05.130
year to allow us to apply for a new zoning and to get

02:00:05.130 --> 02:00:07.800
everything in order.

02:00:07.800 --> 02:00:11.960
We want to do, we want to be good neighbors, and we want to

02:00:11.960 --> 02:00:13.800
break down the city.

02:00:13.800 --> 02:00:16.800
And that's the style I'll take down.

02:00:16.800 --> 02:00:18.800
Any questions?

02:00:18.800 --> 02:00:24.220
Do any members have any questions for our witness, Steve P

02:00:24.220 --> 02:00:24.800
ellin?

02:00:24.800 --> 02:00:26.800
He was first.

02:00:26.800 --> 02:00:28.800
Okay, question?

02:00:28.800 --> 02:00:33.800
Do you have any, I guess, the nature of the lease?

02:00:33.800 --> 02:00:36.800
Where is the people that operate in that facility?

02:00:36.800 --> 02:00:40.170
Were they leasing the property or all the other, like all

02:00:40.170 --> 02:00:41.800
the buildings as a whole,

02:00:41.800 --> 02:00:43.800
and do you have those lease agreements?

02:00:43.800 --> 02:00:47.279
I do not have the lease agreements, the less the word pre-

02:00:47.279 --> 02:00:49.800
existing us purchasing the property.

02:00:49.800 --> 02:00:50.800
Okay.

02:00:50.800 --> 02:00:56.800
So, do those agreements exist at all?

02:00:56.800 --> 02:00:58.800
I do not know.

02:00:58.800 --> 02:01:02.060
I do know that there was a tenant who was there and they

02:01:02.060 --> 02:01:03.800
continued and hold on over

02:01:03.800 --> 02:01:05.800
status for over two years.

02:01:05.800 --> 02:01:07.800
Do you have records of their payment?

02:01:07.800 --> 02:01:10.800
Uh, I have to ask.

02:01:10.800 --> 02:01:13.800
You don't have to pay cash.

02:01:13.800 --> 02:01:16.800
Okay.

02:01:16.800 --> 02:01:20.800
Go ahead.

02:01:20.800 --> 02:01:23.800
Are there utilities on the building?

02:01:23.800 --> 02:01:26.800
There are utilities in one of the buildings.

02:01:26.800 --> 02:01:28.800
You'll need to come into the building.

02:01:28.800 --> 02:01:31.800
You have to speak in front of the camera.

02:01:31.800 --> 02:01:35.800
And we're only looking at the building 910.

02:01:35.800 --> 02:01:36.800
Yes, ma'am.

02:01:36.800 --> 02:01:41.050
So, are there utilities plumbing, electricity, what's

02:01:41.050 --> 02:01:41.800
required by the city,

02:01:41.800 --> 02:01:45.920
and should have been if there was a business going on in

02:01:45.920 --> 02:01:47.800
building 910 North Bank?

02:01:47.800 --> 02:01:49.800
That's a good question.

02:01:49.800 --> 02:01:52.069
From the time that the owner acquired the property and I'm

02:01:52.069 --> 02:01:53.800
the realtor of the delta,

02:01:53.800 --> 02:01:57.800
all the buildings were occupied from the previous owner.

02:01:57.800 --> 02:02:00.130
Electricity, of course, is run to every building, but none

02:02:00.130 --> 02:02:02.800
of those tenants used electricity.

02:02:02.800 --> 02:02:05.449
The reason they didn't use electricity is because they

02:02:05.449 --> 02:02:06.800
could not get electricity is

02:02:06.800 --> 02:02:10.800
because they did not have a driver's license that was

02:02:10.800 --> 02:02:11.800
required by Denton County

02:02:11.800 --> 02:02:15.800
Co-op in order to connect electricity to the building.

02:02:15.800 --> 02:02:16.800
So they all run on generators.

02:02:16.800 --> 02:02:19.300
Even the current tenant that's occupying the final last

02:02:19.300 --> 02:02:20.800
building is running on a

02:02:20.800 --> 02:02:21.800
generator right now.

02:02:21.800 --> 02:02:23.800
Are there plumbing?

02:02:23.800 --> 02:02:25.800
There is no plumbing.

02:02:25.800 --> 02:02:29.800
We do have a water well on the property, so no city water.

02:02:29.800 --> 02:02:31.800
Waste?

02:02:31.800 --> 02:02:33.800
We don't have any plumbing.

02:02:33.800 --> 02:02:35.800
How do you have a business in the...

02:02:35.800 --> 02:02:36.800
We do have a septic tank.

02:02:36.800 --> 02:02:39.800
We do have a septic tank.

02:02:39.800 --> 02:02:43.800
And then septic tank would then have to follow...

02:02:43.800 --> 02:02:44.800
We do have it...

02:02:44.800 --> 02:02:45.800
...requirements.

02:02:45.800 --> 02:02:50.220
We do have the septic tank serviced annually and we do have

02:02:50.220 --> 02:02:51.800
records of that.

02:02:51.800 --> 02:02:52.800
You have records of that?

02:02:52.800 --> 02:02:53.800
Yes.

02:02:53.800 --> 02:02:58.800
And has that been since 2013 when it was annexed?

02:02:58.800 --> 02:02:59.800
Yes, ma'am.

02:02:59.800 --> 02:03:04.800
And septic can be used within city under annexation?

02:03:04.800 --> 02:03:07.800
I believe so.

02:03:07.800 --> 02:03:11.800
So city should have records of that?

02:03:11.800 --> 02:03:13.800
Records of the septic?

02:03:13.800 --> 02:03:14.800
I'm assuming so.

02:03:14.800 --> 02:03:15.800
I've never checked.

02:03:15.800 --> 02:03:17.800
I wouldn't know.

02:03:17.800 --> 02:03:20.800
I mean...

02:03:20.800 --> 02:03:21.800
That would also have to be...

02:03:21.800 --> 02:03:22.800
I'm sorry.

02:03:22.800 --> 02:03:26.300
It would have to be tied to this one building, 910, not

02:03:26.300 --> 02:03:28.800
septic to all four buildings.

02:03:28.800 --> 02:03:29.800
Right.

02:03:29.800 --> 02:03:33.800
And the septic would be applicable to all four buildings.

02:03:33.800 --> 02:03:38.800
I was about to ask, are they serviced...

02:03:38.800 --> 02:03:41.420
Are there four separate septic tanks or do they all go into

02:03:41.420 --> 02:03:41.800
one?

02:03:41.800 --> 02:03:42.800
All go into one.

02:03:42.800 --> 02:03:43.800
Okay.

02:03:43.800 --> 02:03:46.800
Yes.

02:03:46.800 --> 02:03:50.369
I don't know if we have a packet that we sent that might be

02:03:50.369 --> 02:03:53.800
pulled up that we could view on the stream.

02:03:53.800 --> 02:03:57.800
We certainly provided it to Max.

02:03:57.800 --> 02:04:00.800
And the zoning department.

02:04:00.800 --> 02:04:01.800
Is it?

02:04:01.800 --> 02:04:03.920
We included it in the packet for this particular

02:04:03.920 --> 02:04:04.800
presentation.

02:04:04.800 --> 02:04:05.800
I didn't.

02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:06.800
It's fine.

02:04:06.800 --> 02:04:07.800
No?

02:04:07.800 --> 02:04:09.800
It is in the back of my notebook.

02:04:09.800 --> 02:04:10.800
Go ahead.

02:04:10.800 --> 02:04:11.800
Thank you.

02:04:11.800 --> 02:04:12.800
I have a few...

02:04:12.800 --> 02:04:13.800
It is this one.

02:04:13.800 --> 02:04:14.800
Mayor Wilton.

02:04:14.800 --> 02:04:15.800
Just above.

02:04:15.800 --> 02:04:16.800
Sure.

02:04:16.800 --> 02:04:17.800
Yeah.

02:04:17.800 --> 02:04:23.579
We're going to try to look at some images here that might

02:04:23.579 --> 02:04:25.800
be able to...

02:04:25.800 --> 02:04:27.800
I kind of pointed us in the right direction.

02:04:27.800 --> 02:04:28.800
The goal of...

02:04:28.800 --> 02:04:32.199
Since the owner took over the property was to try to bring

02:04:32.199 --> 02:04:33.800
in new tenants that could

02:04:33.800 --> 02:04:36.800
actually get us the typical occupancy.

02:04:36.800 --> 02:04:37.800
Okay.

02:04:37.800 --> 02:04:38.800
Our goal was to clean the property up.

02:04:38.800 --> 02:04:39.800
We're going to show you some images here.

02:04:39.800 --> 02:04:42.800
It was just an absolute eyesore.

02:04:42.800 --> 02:04:48.329
And after we purchased the property, it was our goal to try

02:04:48.329 --> 02:04:50.800
to get the tenants out.

02:04:50.800 --> 02:04:51.800
And I don't...

02:04:51.800 --> 02:04:52.800
Evictions are very difficult.

02:04:52.800 --> 02:04:56.680
And the only thing we could do, which is the easiest way,

02:04:56.680 --> 02:04:58.800
is to raise the rent, which is

02:04:58.800 --> 02:04:59.800
what we tried to do.

02:04:59.800 --> 02:05:00.800
And all these people paid cash.

02:05:00.800 --> 02:05:01.800
Let's go to the images at the bottom.

02:05:01.800 --> 02:05:02.800
It'll be good.

02:05:02.800 --> 02:05:03.800
Yeah.

02:05:03.800 --> 02:05:04.800
That's correct.

02:05:04.800 --> 02:05:05.800
So this is in 2024.

02:05:05.800 --> 02:05:10.800
You can see that all the buildings are actually occupied.

02:05:10.800 --> 02:05:21.359
And as far as it would move from building to building, and

02:05:21.359 --> 02:05:25.800
we would have to come and

02:05:25.800 --> 02:05:28.930
get on and continuously about changing buildings without

02:05:28.930 --> 02:05:29.800
permission.

02:05:29.800 --> 02:05:30.800
Okay.

02:05:30.800 --> 02:05:32.510
So you can understand while we're trying to get the tenants

02:05:32.510 --> 02:05:32.800
out.

02:05:32.800 --> 02:05:36.560
And we were involved in not actually executing a written

02:05:36.560 --> 02:05:38.800
lease with these people because

02:05:38.800 --> 02:05:40.800
we didn't want them there.

02:05:40.800 --> 02:05:42.800
Our goal was to try to get them out.

02:05:42.800 --> 02:05:46.180
And if you'll scroll down and kind of look at the

02:05:46.180 --> 02:05:48.800
historical, you'll see even back coming

02:05:48.800 --> 02:05:50.800
up, it just got worse.

02:05:50.800 --> 02:05:55.890
When we bought the property, it was just continued to get

02:05:55.890 --> 02:05:56.800
worse.

02:05:56.800 --> 02:06:01.399
People were dumped behind the buildings that just would

02:06:01.399 --> 02:06:03.800
come on a Sunday and just dump

02:06:03.800 --> 02:06:04.800
trash.

02:06:04.800 --> 02:06:09.159
So we were trying to gain control and prevent it from being

02:06:09.159 --> 02:06:11.800
such an eyesore for the community

02:06:11.800 --> 02:06:12.800
in the street.

02:06:12.800 --> 02:06:15.800
And Bay Hill now has become a very well-traveled street.

02:06:15.800 --> 02:06:16.800
You're going backwards?

02:06:16.800 --> 02:06:17.800
Yeah.

02:06:17.800 --> 02:06:18.800
To 2018.

02:06:18.800 --> 02:06:21.800
If you all purchased the property in '23.

02:06:21.800 --> 02:06:22.800
Yes.

02:06:22.800 --> 02:06:24.800
Let's not look at anything from...

02:06:24.800 --> 02:06:25.800
Okay.

02:06:25.800 --> 02:06:26.800
So here's '23.

02:06:26.800 --> 02:06:32.260
And then you can see they were operating out of all the

02:06:32.260 --> 02:06:33.800
buildings.

02:06:33.800 --> 02:06:38.010
This building was occupied by this tenant, which was a sp

02:06:38.010 --> 02:06:38.800
arser.

02:06:38.800 --> 02:06:39.800
Okay.

02:06:39.800 --> 02:06:40.800
And then...

02:06:40.800 --> 02:06:41.800
This is 910, by the way.

02:06:41.800 --> 02:06:42.800
Right.

02:06:42.800 --> 02:06:43.800
And that one.

02:06:43.800 --> 02:06:44.800
Yeah.

02:06:44.800 --> 02:06:45.800
All right.

02:06:45.800 --> 02:06:54.630
But there's nothing saying what was being done inside those

02:06:54.630 --> 02:06:56.800
buildings.

02:06:56.800 --> 02:06:59.800
There's no photographs.

02:06:59.800 --> 02:07:04.800
There's no written evidence if they were on generators.

02:07:04.800 --> 02:07:07.800
And I'm sorry, I know it's not...

02:07:07.800 --> 02:07:08.800
Well, no.

02:07:08.800 --> 02:07:09.800
It's not.

02:07:09.800 --> 02:07:10.800
Okay.

02:07:10.800 --> 02:07:15.970
It's kind of hard to provide evidence when they operated

02:07:15.970 --> 02:07:17.800
the way they did.

02:07:17.800 --> 02:07:20.829
Our goal was to get them out and to try to carry it to a

02:07:20.829 --> 02:07:22.800
legal non-conforming use that

02:07:22.800 --> 02:07:24.800
the buildings had all along.

02:07:24.800 --> 02:07:26.800
I mean, they've been there quite some time before.

02:07:26.800 --> 02:07:27.800
Annexation?

02:07:27.800 --> 02:07:28.800
Yes, sir.

02:07:28.800 --> 02:07:29.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:29.800 --> 02:07:30.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:30.800 --> 02:07:31.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:31.800 --> 02:07:32.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:32.800 --> 02:07:33.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:33.800 --> 02:07:34.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:34.800 --> 02:07:35.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:35.800 --> 02:07:36.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:36.800 --> 02:07:37.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:37.800 --> 02:07:38.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:38.800 --> 02:07:39.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:39.800 --> 02:07:40.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:40.800 --> 02:07:41.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:41.800 --> 02:07:42.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:42.800 --> 02:07:43.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:07:43.800 --> 02:08:02.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:08:02.800 --> 02:08:23.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:08:23.800 --> 02:08:44.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:08:44.800 --> 02:09:05.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:05.800 --> 02:09:25.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:25.800 --> 02:09:39.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:39.800 --> 02:09:40.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:40.800 --> 02:09:41.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:41.800 --> 02:09:42.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:42.800 --> 02:09:43.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:43.800 --> 02:09:44.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:44.800 --> 02:09:45.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:45.800 --> 02:09:46.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:46.800 --> 02:09:47.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:47.800 --> 02:09:48.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:48.800 --> 02:09:49.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:49.800 --> 02:09:50.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:50.800 --> 02:09:51.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:51.800 --> 02:09:52.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:52.800 --> 02:09:53.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:53.800 --> 02:09:58.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:58.800 --> 02:09:59.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:09:59.800 --> 02:10:00.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:00.800 --> 02:10:01.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:01.800 --> 02:10:02.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:02.800 --> 02:10:03.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:03.800 --> 02:10:04.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:04.800 --> 02:10:05.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:05.800 --> 02:10:06.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:06.800 --> 02:10:07.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:07.800 --> 02:10:08.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:08.800 --> 02:10:09.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:09.800 --> 02:10:10.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:10.800 --> 02:10:11.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:11.800 --> 02:10:12.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:12.800 --> 02:10:27.800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

02:10:27.800 --> 02:10:29.800
So there is more information available that could establish

02:10:29.800 --> 02:10:33.800
.

02:10:33.800 --> 02:10:38.909
Is there proof of, I guess, bank deposits of what the rent

02:10:38.909 --> 02:10:39.800
would be?

02:10:39.800 --> 02:10:43.800
Well, I certainly have historical photographs of photos

02:10:43.800 --> 02:10:46.460
that I've taken when I visited the property through the

02:10:46.460 --> 02:10:46.800
years.

02:10:46.800 --> 02:10:50.800
Yeah, like that building specifically of it in use?

02:10:50.800 --> 02:10:54.800
Of trash and beer cans and things that we were upset about.

02:10:54.800 --> 02:10:57.800
We were trying to just eliminate the ten-volume.

02:10:57.800 --> 02:10:58.800
So inside the building too?

02:10:58.800 --> 02:10:59.800
It was all the buildings.

02:10:59.800 --> 02:11:03.800
No, but like you have photos of it inside 910?

02:11:03.800 --> 02:11:06.800
No, I did not.

02:11:06.800 --> 02:11:07.800
Okay.

02:11:07.800 --> 02:11:09.800
So just the outside of the building?

02:11:09.800 --> 02:11:11.800
I didn't care to go in the building's gas.

02:11:11.800 --> 02:11:12.800
Okay.

02:11:12.800 --> 02:11:13.800
Yeah.

02:11:13.800 --> 02:11:14.800
Richard.

02:11:14.800 --> 02:11:18.579
So would any of this have been applicable to prove to the

02:11:18.579 --> 02:11:21.800
city that it was being occupied by a business?

02:11:21.800 --> 02:11:24.289
Because based on their presentation, it seemed like they

02:11:24.289 --> 02:11:25.800
had no evidence that there was.

02:11:25.800 --> 02:11:27.800
Yeah, I see that.

02:11:27.800 --> 02:11:33.229
The only way to establish occupancy, of course, is with a

02:11:33.229 --> 02:11:38.090
certificate of occupancy or with a utility bill, which we

02:11:38.090 --> 02:11:38.800
're not in city water.

02:11:38.800 --> 02:11:39.800
We're in well water.

02:11:39.800 --> 02:11:42.720
And those guys did not have the ability to acquire

02:11:42.720 --> 02:11:43.800
electricity.

02:11:43.800 --> 02:11:47.130
And it is not the owner's responsibility to get the

02:11:47.130 --> 02:11:49.800
certificate of occupancy in a lease.

02:11:49.800 --> 02:11:51.800
It makes the tenant responsible.

02:11:51.800 --> 02:11:55.800
But those leases were so old.

02:11:55.800 --> 02:11:59.800
And in order to go to...

02:11:59.800 --> 02:12:07.800
So yeah, I would want to see like bank statements of rent,

02:12:07.800 --> 02:12:15.369
like the amounts and like the photos and I guess what other

02:12:15.369 --> 02:12:17.800
information that you can gather to prove.

02:12:17.800 --> 02:12:23.800
It is... I'm willing to hear more on it.

02:12:23.800 --> 02:12:25.800
I don't know if anyone else is.

02:12:25.800 --> 02:12:29.989
And I would like to ask some city staff questions after

02:12:29.989 --> 02:12:33.800
everybody has the question of the appellate.

02:12:33.800 --> 02:12:35.800
Okay.

02:12:35.800 --> 02:12:38.829
Are there any other questions for the appellate on the

02:12:38.829 --> 02:12:39.800
front board?

02:12:39.800 --> 02:12:40.800
I have a question.

02:12:40.800 --> 02:12:44.989
Were any of these businesses required to have licenses or

02:12:44.989 --> 02:12:49.170
anything from the county or any jurisdiction they were in

02:12:49.170 --> 02:12:52.800
to show you just can't open up a shop and say, okay, you

02:12:52.800 --> 02:12:52.800
know,

02:12:52.800 --> 02:12:56.359
I'm going to be an electrician without some licenses or

02:12:56.359 --> 02:12:58.800
somebody coming out and inspect.

02:12:58.800 --> 02:13:02.109
I know that you're talking about probably undocumented

02:13:02.109 --> 02:13:02.800
people.

02:13:02.800 --> 02:13:07.159
But I mean, you want us to take on face value everything

02:13:07.159 --> 02:13:10.520
that you're saying when we're asking for proof and you don

02:13:10.520 --> 02:13:13.930
't have any proof, much less what they pay because they're

02:13:13.930 --> 02:13:14.800
paying cash.

02:13:14.800 --> 02:13:18.050
Haven't provided proof when we sent a whole packet for

02:13:18.050 --> 02:13:19.800
review to the Zumba club.

02:13:19.800 --> 02:13:22.800
He doesn't have nine ten. That lease doesn't have nine ten.

02:13:22.800 --> 02:13:25.800
That kind of is the issue.

02:13:25.800 --> 02:13:29.699
It's the building that is being addressed as a building

02:13:29.699 --> 02:13:33.800
that we have a new tenant in place and wants to lease it.

02:13:33.800 --> 02:13:36.560
And he filed for a certificate of occupancy and that's how

02:13:36.560 --> 02:13:37.800
all this came about.

02:13:37.800 --> 02:13:40.199
In which we wanted him to do the right thing and get a

02:13:40.199 --> 02:13:41.800
certificate of occupancy.

02:13:41.800 --> 02:13:45.960
It was us that pressed him to make sure he had a CEO in

02:13:45.960 --> 02:13:46.800
place.

02:13:46.800 --> 02:13:51.460
And the answer to your question is, is one was supposed to

02:13:51.460 --> 02:13:55.800
be a lawn service and he was working on automobiles.

02:13:55.800 --> 02:13:59.800
Well, we hated this guy. It was just cars everywhere.

02:13:59.800 --> 02:14:02.800
You could see what was happening.

02:14:02.800 --> 02:14:04.800
And yes, sir.

02:14:04.800 --> 02:14:09.800
This was, as you said, this was before annexation.

02:14:09.800 --> 02:14:14.560
Are there any county documents available to you on these

02:14:14.560 --> 02:14:17.800
properties and occupantization?

02:14:17.800 --> 02:14:21.159
Typically when it's in a HGJ or a county there's no

02:14:21.159 --> 02:14:23.800
certificate of occupancy required.

02:14:23.800 --> 02:14:26.619
The only thing that would probably be required maybe is a

02:14:26.619 --> 02:14:27.800
firing inspection.

02:14:27.800 --> 02:14:29.800
So we wouldn't have to do this.

02:14:29.800 --> 02:14:30.800
And the well water.

02:14:30.800 --> 02:14:31.800
I'm sorry?

02:14:31.800 --> 02:14:32.800
And the well water.

02:14:32.800 --> 02:14:34.800
And the well water.

02:14:34.800 --> 02:14:45.210
But none of that answers the question of nonconformity for

02:14:45.210 --> 02:14:49.800
property 910 North and Angle.

02:14:49.800 --> 02:14:50.800
Yeah.

02:14:50.800 --> 02:14:51.800
Correct.

02:14:51.800 --> 02:14:52.800
Right.

02:14:52.800 --> 02:14:54.800
Yeah.

02:14:54.800 --> 02:14:58.800
Has everybody had questions for the appellant?

02:14:58.800 --> 02:14:59.800
Answered.

02:14:59.800 --> 02:15:01.800
Dr. Wormski.

02:15:01.800 --> 02:15:08.619
Looking at the hierarchy as to who has what, you had an

02:15:08.619 --> 02:15:14.800
original property owner that sold the property,

02:15:14.800 --> 02:15:17.800
at which time you became involved, sir?

02:15:17.800 --> 02:15:18.800
Yes.

02:15:18.800 --> 02:15:20.800
As a property manager for the new owner?

02:15:20.800 --> 02:15:21.800
No.

02:15:21.800 --> 02:15:26.460
This is a real hurt in the negotiating the sale transaction

02:15:26.460 --> 02:15:26.800
.

02:15:26.800 --> 02:15:27.800
Okay.

02:15:27.800 --> 02:15:28.800
So you're worried now.

02:15:28.800 --> 02:15:32.800
You, sir, function as the legal counsel for...

02:15:32.800 --> 02:15:33.800
Yes.

02:15:33.800 --> 02:15:34.800
Okay.

02:15:34.800 --> 02:15:37.800
That's when I came on in May after Brown before.

02:15:37.800 --> 02:15:48.409
So if a building has a certificate of occupancy and it is

02:15:48.409 --> 02:15:53.800
non-transferable at a sale,

02:15:53.800 --> 02:16:00.210
you mentioned that the person going in as the cabinet

02:16:00.210 --> 02:16:06.800
banker or an embroiderer or whatever has to apply for it.

02:16:06.800 --> 02:16:13.000
Is it not the responsibility, and you may not be the one to

02:16:13.000 --> 02:16:15.800
answer this discussion after,

02:16:15.800 --> 02:16:20.989
is it not the responsibility, I would think, of...I've

02:16:20.989 --> 02:16:24.800
owned properties in other states but not Texas.

02:16:24.800 --> 02:16:27.800
Okay.

02:16:27.800 --> 02:16:33.629
That the person who owns the property and then is looking

02:16:33.629 --> 02:16:38.799
toward utilizing it for rental income and renting,

02:16:38.799 --> 02:16:45.059
they are the ones responsible for getting the certificate,

02:16:45.059 --> 02:16:47.799
not the person who comes in as the...

02:16:47.799 --> 02:16:49.799
The tenant is always responsible.

02:16:49.799 --> 02:16:51.799
The lessor has to come.

02:16:51.799 --> 02:16:52.799
Pardon me.

02:16:52.799 --> 02:16:53.799
It's the owner.

02:16:53.799 --> 02:16:54.799
No.

02:16:54.799 --> 02:16:58.600
The tenant has to come and get the certificate of occupancy

02:16:58.600 --> 02:16:59.799
from the city.

02:16:59.799 --> 02:17:00.799
Oh, okay.

02:17:00.799 --> 02:17:02.799
That's different than what I...

02:17:02.799 --> 02:17:03.799
Okay.

02:17:03.799 --> 02:17:09.030
So if there was an existing CO when the property

02:17:09.030 --> 02:17:13.799
transferred from one owner to the other,

02:17:13.799 --> 02:17:16.799
that CO does not go to the owner, it goes to the tenant.

02:17:16.799 --> 02:17:17.799
Okay.

02:17:17.799 --> 02:17:20.270
So each time you write a lease with a new company, you have

02:17:20.270 --> 02:17:20.799
a new CO.

02:17:20.799 --> 02:17:21.799
Well, they have to get it.

02:17:21.799 --> 02:17:22.799
They have to get a tenant.

02:17:22.799 --> 02:17:23.799
Yeah, that's what I mean.

02:17:23.799 --> 02:17:26.799
They have to apply for it and get it in document.

02:17:26.799 --> 02:17:27.799
Okay.

02:17:27.799 --> 02:17:40.350
And if electricity is one of the criteria, as long as the

02:17:40.350 --> 02:17:45.799
property has access to electricity,

02:17:45.799 --> 02:17:53.209
but that electricity does not have to "go to a meter" which

02:17:53.209 --> 02:17:57.799
then provides the electricity.

02:17:57.799 --> 02:18:02.180
So if someone is coming in and as you're saying, these

02:18:02.180 --> 02:18:04.799
individuals were using generators.

02:18:04.799 --> 02:18:05.799
Yeah.

02:18:05.799 --> 02:18:06.799
You still get...

02:18:06.799 --> 02:18:07.799
Or no electricity at all.

02:18:07.799 --> 02:18:08.799
Yeah, or not.

02:18:08.799 --> 02:18:13.020
But I mean, if they're using a generator, there was still,

02:18:13.020 --> 02:18:14.799
in order to qualify for a

02:18:14.799 --> 02:18:16.799
CO, there was still electricity available.

02:18:16.799 --> 02:18:20.799
They were just not affording themselves the opportunity.

02:18:20.799 --> 02:18:21.799
Yeah.

02:18:21.799 --> 02:18:22.799
Okay.

02:18:22.799 --> 02:18:23.799
To get the electricity, you need a CO.

02:18:23.799 --> 02:18:24.799
Yeah.

02:18:24.799 --> 02:18:25.799
To get the electricity, you need a dropper's license.

02:18:25.799 --> 02:18:26.799
So...

02:18:26.799 --> 02:18:27.799
They could not produce it.

02:18:27.799 --> 02:18:28.799
It was pretty simple.

02:18:28.799 --> 02:18:29.799
They could produce it.

02:18:29.799 --> 02:18:30.799
The tenant is pre-existing in the annexation by the way.

02:18:30.799 --> 02:18:31.799
Okay.

02:18:31.799 --> 02:18:32.799
Yeah, that's my question.

02:18:32.799 --> 02:18:33.799
I forgot my question.

02:18:33.799 --> 02:18:34.799
Okay.

02:18:34.799 --> 02:18:35.799
Always.

02:18:35.799 --> 02:18:36.799
Yeah, my question is, like, they were...

02:18:36.799 --> 02:18:37.799
As far as I'm concerned.

02:18:37.799 --> 02:18:38.799
They were...

02:18:38.799 --> 02:18:48.040
The person in the...

02:18:48.040 --> 02:18:50.040
Is that the Esparza rental right there?

02:18:50.040 --> 02:18:51.040
Yep, it is.

02:18:51.040 --> 02:18:52.040
Yeah.

02:18:52.040 --> 02:18:53.040
So why did...

02:18:53.040 --> 02:18:57.290
If he was occupying that building and using that building,

02:18:57.290 --> 02:18:59.239
why was he not on...

02:18:59.239 --> 02:19:02.719
Why was that building not on the lease with the others?

02:19:02.719 --> 02:19:03.719
Well, like I said...

02:19:03.719 --> 02:19:04.719
Go ahead.

02:19:04.719 --> 02:19:07.559
Oh, I'll also go and point out that...

02:19:07.559 --> 02:19:10.790
That's a question, unfortunately, I can't answer or he can

02:19:10.790 --> 02:19:12.879
't answer because this pre-exists...

02:19:12.879 --> 02:19:15.879
This predates us, right?

02:19:15.879 --> 02:19:22.129
But he would move and occupy a building that was unoccupied

02:19:22.129 --> 02:19:22.600
.

02:19:22.600 --> 02:19:28.159
That's sort of the problem that we have with the Esparza.

02:19:28.159 --> 02:19:31.489
He continued with about a 24K in the month to month, month

02:19:31.489 --> 02:19:33.040
to month, month to month,

02:19:33.040 --> 02:19:36.969
month to month, until he stopped paying and then he finally

02:19:36.969 --> 02:19:37.760
ran out.

02:19:37.760 --> 02:19:38.760
Okay.

02:19:38.760 --> 02:19:39.760
But yeah.

02:19:39.760 --> 02:19:42.920
Then this is my question, are these buildings not locked?

02:19:42.920 --> 02:19:45.280
Do they not have separate keys?

02:19:45.280 --> 02:19:46.280
The vacant ones don't.

02:19:46.280 --> 02:19:47.280
They're just an overhead door.

02:19:47.280 --> 02:19:48.280
They were not locked.

02:19:48.280 --> 02:19:49.280
It's a metal building.

02:19:49.280 --> 02:19:50.059
And if they were locked, if there was a lock, Esparza could

02:19:50.059 --> 02:19:50.280
get in.

02:19:50.280 --> 02:19:51.280
He was pretty...

02:19:51.280 --> 02:19:52.280
He was a cabinet maker.

02:19:52.280 --> 02:19:53.280
Well, if it's a locked building...

02:19:53.280 --> 02:19:54.280
He shouldn't.

02:19:54.280 --> 02:19:55.280
...and it's not used by the...

02:19:55.280 --> 02:19:56.280
He shouldn't.

02:19:56.280 --> 02:19:57.280
...and it's not used by the...

02:19:57.280 --> 02:19:58.280
He shouldn't.

02:19:58.280 --> 02:19:59.280
...and it's not used by the...

02:19:59.280 --> 02:20:00.280
He shouldn't.

02:20:00.280 --> 02:20:04.870
...and it's not used by the authorized key, that's an

02:20:04.870 --> 02:20:06.239
illegal entry.

02:20:06.239 --> 02:20:07.239
Well he shouldn't.

02:20:07.239 --> 02:20:12.510
But if he agrees to pay rent and we're there collecting

02:20:12.510 --> 02:20:15.920
rent, it's hard to turn the money

02:20:15.920 --> 02:20:16.920
down.

02:20:16.920 --> 02:20:17.920
Okay.

02:20:17.920 --> 02:20:19.760
So, and you can...

02:20:19.760 --> 02:20:22.709
What was the amount of rent that he had paid month to month

02:20:22.709 --> 02:20:23.000
?

02:20:23.000 --> 02:20:28.010
I want to say, in the beginning, it was 1,800 if I remember

02:20:28.010 --> 02:20:28.799
right.

02:20:28.799 --> 02:20:32.780
And then we moved it up to 2,000 and then 2,200 and we

02:20:32.780 --> 02:20:34.639
slowly just tried to...

02:20:34.639 --> 02:20:37.799
Okay, so there should be records of those payments.

02:20:37.799 --> 02:20:39.760
There's probably a letter, of course.

02:20:39.760 --> 02:20:41.959
I mean also bank statements of the...

02:20:41.959 --> 02:20:42.959
Right, for the deposits.

02:20:42.959 --> 02:20:43.959
Yeah, and those are...

02:20:43.959 --> 02:20:44.959
Okay.

02:20:44.959 --> 02:20:45.959
Yeah.

02:20:45.959 --> 02:20:50.959
It's really interesting.

02:20:50.959 --> 02:20:51.959
Are there any...

02:20:51.959 --> 02:20:52.959
Oh, yes, we have one.

02:20:52.959 --> 02:21:02.620
So the flow chart, the whole need for this is because one,

02:21:02.620 --> 02:21:07.879
you want email and the eviction

02:21:07.879 --> 02:21:17.569
process, whatever it means, two, in order to have that one

02:21:17.569 --> 02:21:21.600
building be utilized and

02:21:21.600 --> 02:21:29.159
rented to a individual business is what it is.

02:21:29.159 --> 02:21:37.200
It's because the other buildings, if one, they're vacant,

02:21:37.200 --> 02:21:40.840
what zoning or previous can

02:21:40.840 --> 02:21:49.000
be demonstrated that didn't lapse if those were to be

02:21:49.000 --> 02:21:53.719
rented out by the owner or this

02:21:53.719 --> 02:22:01.340
gentleman was utilizing, hopping from building to building

02:22:01.340 --> 02:22:05.079
or spreading out and the owner

02:22:05.079 --> 02:22:09.409
wants to make not only this building but he would also want

02:22:09.409 --> 02:22:11.399
to look toward having the

02:22:11.399 --> 02:22:15.739
other buildings be in compliance because right now I'm

02:22:15.739 --> 02:22:18.760
understanding that nothing on there

02:22:18.760 --> 02:22:27.120
is in compliance or did I come to a wrong conclusion?

02:22:27.120 --> 02:22:30.610
From what I understand, none of the buildings will be in

02:22:30.610 --> 02:22:32.520
compliance as of right now.

02:22:32.520 --> 02:22:34.579
So the only thing that's happening is that they are all

02:22:34.579 --> 02:22:36.159
still operating under the continuous

02:22:36.159 --> 02:22:37.159
use.

02:22:37.159 --> 02:22:38.159
Well, there's only one building that's occupied.

02:22:38.159 --> 02:22:39.159
Okay.

02:22:39.159 --> 02:22:40.159
Yeah, but yeah, they have not been...

02:22:40.159 --> 02:22:41.159
We successfully evicted the tenants basically.

02:22:41.159 --> 02:22:42.159
Yeah, I have a good question.

02:22:42.159 --> 02:22:43.159
You're talking about generators.

02:22:43.159 --> 02:22:50.159
What kind of generators were these used in?

02:22:50.159 --> 02:22:51.159
Loud ones.

02:22:51.159 --> 02:22:55.540
Well, I mean, a generator uses a lot of fuel and how are

02:22:55.540 --> 02:22:58.159
they moving this generator?

02:22:58.159 --> 02:23:00.620
It's not a portable that you just pick it up and carry it

02:23:00.620 --> 02:23:01.200
around.

02:23:01.200 --> 02:23:05.879
I mean, it's like it goes on a set of car wheels.

02:23:05.879 --> 02:23:09.350
How's he moving this around and moving all this fuel around

02:23:09.350 --> 02:23:09.639
?

02:23:09.639 --> 02:23:12.329
That's what confuses me and where are all the electrical

02:23:12.329 --> 02:23:12.840
cords?

02:23:12.840 --> 02:23:15.170
Well, I can take a picture of the current tenant of this

02:23:15.170 --> 02:23:15.840
generator.

02:23:15.840 --> 02:23:16.840
I'll be happy to.

02:23:16.840 --> 02:23:19.840
I don't know what size it is.

02:23:19.840 --> 02:23:23.479
But I mean, if you're running a shop for building cabinets,

02:23:23.479 --> 02:23:25.719
I mean, you must have had a thousand

02:23:25.719 --> 02:23:28.760
feet of electrical wire running around in there.

02:23:28.760 --> 02:23:32.190
Anybody who's been in a shop that builds cabinets, you don

02:23:32.190 --> 02:23:34.200
't get a little extension cord.

02:23:34.200 --> 02:23:39.659
You have to have big cords for 240 volt equipment and stuff

02:23:39.659 --> 02:23:40.040
.

02:23:40.040 --> 02:23:44.440
It just seems pretty impossible that this guy can do all

02:23:44.440 --> 02:23:46.719
this stuff and there aren't

02:23:46.719 --> 02:23:49.719
pictures or something like that of all this heavy equipment

02:23:49.719 --> 02:23:51.000
that he would need in the

02:23:51.000 --> 02:23:53.940
setup that he would have for these buildings and the time

02:23:53.940 --> 02:23:55.639
and effort and expense it would

02:23:55.639 --> 02:23:59.360
be to move this generator around everywhere.

02:23:59.360 --> 02:24:05.069
Well, I want to tell you that I do not follow exactly what

02:24:05.069 --> 02:24:08.360
you're saying, but up until April

02:24:08.360 --> 02:24:12.440
of this year, May of this year, there was never a need to

02:24:12.440 --> 02:24:14.559
have pictures of any of this

02:24:14.559 --> 02:24:18.010
information because we were not even aware at the time that

02:24:18.010 --> 02:24:19.799
this wasn't a nonconforming

02:24:19.799 --> 02:24:20.799
use.

02:24:20.799 --> 02:24:24.420
We've simply been utilizing the property the same way we

02:24:24.420 --> 02:24:27.000
had from the moment it was purchased,

02:24:27.000 --> 02:24:31.250
from the same way it was being utilized, from the day these

02:24:31.250 --> 02:24:34.360
buildings were put up in 2009.

02:24:34.360 --> 02:24:40.280
We've just been going along the same tenant, until we end

02:24:40.280 --> 02:24:42.479
up in a bad tenant.

02:24:42.479 --> 02:24:44.479
But other than that, everything's remained the same.

02:24:44.479 --> 02:24:55.989
Is the generator, because of your inquiry, is it a

02:24:55.989 --> 02:24:58.120
permanent, you know, a generator or

02:24:58.120 --> 02:25:01.120
are we talking about the mobile plate generators?

02:25:01.120 --> 02:25:06.100
And if you attach a generator and they don't have a meter,

02:25:06.100 --> 02:25:08.600
because that's the reason they

02:25:08.600 --> 02:25:12.530
would stay off, you can attach the generator and have your

02:25:12.530 --> 02:25:14.399
wiring such that it goes to

02:25:14.399 --> 02:25:17.399
where the knockout is for the meter.

02:25:17.399 --> 02:25:20.399
I guess you could.

02:25:20.399 --> 02:25:24.120
I wouldn't know, you know.

02:25:24.120 --> 02:25:28.329
It's a big generator, it's a lot of effort and a lot of

02:25:28.329 --> 02:25:30.600
fuel and it's a pain to do that.

02:25:30.600 --> 02:25:33.680
This isn't like, hey today we're just going to open a

02:25:33.680 --> 02:25:35.319
debate and talk to kids.

02:25:35.319 --> 02:25:38.120
It's not the owners business.

02:25:38.120 --> 02:25:41.590
No I understand that, but if you're out there seeing it,

02:25:41.590 --> 02:25:43.639
what kind of generator was it?

02:25:43.639 --> 02:25:45.989
It's not a suitcase size, I mean it's the size of a Leica

02:25:45.989 --> 02:25:47.399
Volkswagen if you're talking

02:25:47.399 --> 02:25:50.399
about these generators for business.

02:25:50.399 --> 02:25:51.399
That's not true.

02:25:51.399 --> 02:25:54.399
I can provide you with a generator.

02:25:54.399 --> 02:25:56.399
I'm afraid to build it.

02:25:56.399 --> 02:26:01.159
No, I'm just asking everyone, just as a reminder, like it's

02:26:01.159 --> 02:26:03.719
to wait for the chair to call upon

02:26:03.719 --> 02:26:07.600
whoever's speaking, whether it be the Helen or whatever.

02:26:07.600 --> 02:26:12.280
It's all good, we can get in touch sometimes.

02:26:12.280 --> 02:26:18.180
I just want to remind everyone who's here just of that

02:26:18.180 --> 02:26:19.840
guideline.

02:26:19.840 --> 02:26:25.459
I do ask, are there any other questions that we have for

02:26:25.459 --> 02:26:27.360
our appellant?

02:26:27.360 --> 02:26:29.319
Okay.

02:26:29.319 --> 02:26:33.239
Hearing none, thank you for your presentation and comments.

02:26:33.239 --> 02:26:36.239
Does the city have any rebuttal comments?

02:26:36.239 --> 02:26:37.239
Okay.

02:26:37.239 --> 02:26:42.170
If so, you have up to two minutes per speaker for rebuttal

02:26:42.170 --> 02:26:44.559
with a total of no more than

02:26:44.559 --> 02:26:47.559
ten minutes from all speakers from this party.

02:26:47.559 --> 02:26:52.690
Yes, so just a few points to clarify based on what was

02:26:52.690 --> 02:26:55.120
stated this evening.

02:26:55.120 --> 02:26:58.129
So they argued that there was no CO because the use of

02:26:58.129 --> 02:27:00.799
building 910 predates the annexation

02:27:00.799 --> 02:27:02.799
date back to 2011.

02:27:02.799 --> 02:27:06.139
However, that is not what was stated in the application and

02:27:06.139 --> 02:27:07.840
affidavit provided to staff

02:27:07.840 --> 02:27:10.000
that our determination was based upon.

02:27:10.000 --> 02:27:12.299
That information indicated that Esparza began using the

02:27:12.299 --> 02:27:14.360
building in 2023 after their purchase

02:27:14.360 --> 02:27:16.360
of the property in 2021.

02:27:16.360 --> 02:27:19.290
So I just wanted to clarify that staff, again, was given no

02:27:19.290 --> 02:27:21.159
evidence of anything that occurred

02:27:21.159 --> 02:27:24.700
prior to annexation and the documents that were reported

02:27:24.700 --> 02:27:25.799
this evening.

02:27:25.799 --> 02:27:28.489
With respect to the land being discussed as a whole versus

02:27:28.489 --> 02:27:30.280
the specific building, again,

02:27:30.280 --> 02:27:33.280
the information provided to staff for the original request

02:27:33.280 --> 02:27:34.760
as well as the determination

02:27:34.760 --> 02:27:37.159
letter and all of the information provided with this appeal

02:27:37.159 --> 02:27:38.280
are specific to building

02:27:38.280 --> 02:27:39.280
910.

02:27:39.280 --> 02:27:41.020
Staff had no information regarding the other three

02:27:41.020 --> 02:27:42.280
buildings on which to make any sort

02:27:42.280 --> 02:27:43.280
of determination.

02:27:43.280 --> 02:27:47.840
So we cannot speak to anything regarding the use of those

02:27:47.840 --> 02:27:49.559
three buildings.

02:27:49.559 --> 02:27:52.819
Regarding the lease of the buildings, again, the affidavit,

02:27:52.819 --> 02:27:54.479
if you look at what was provided

02:27:54.479 --> 02:27:57.270
in your backup, the affidavit of the owner stated that the

02:27:57.270 --> 02:27:58.840
lease of two of the buildings,

02:27:58.840 --> 02:28:01.239
not the subject building, predated their ownership.

02:28:01.239 --> 02:28:04.100
However, they acknowledged that the lease of building 910

02:28:04.100 --> 02:28:05.319
began on a month-to-month

02:28:05.319 --> 02:28:06.319
basis in 2023.

02:28:06.319 --> 02:28:09.200
Again, they took ownership in 2021.

02:28:09.200 --> 02:28:13.280
So that occurred under the current ownership.

02:28:13.280 --> 02:28:16.540
With respect to the electric, again, the electricity is

02:28:16.540 --> 02:28:20.000
required for a building to be legally occupied.

02:28:20.000 --> 02:28:22.299
Those buildings do have electricity run to them and had

02:28:22.299 --> 02:28:23.559
electricity through the city

02:28:23.559 --> 02:28:26.450
provided through April of 2021, which was again after the

02:28:26.450 --> 02:28:27.760
current owner purchased the

02:28:27.760 --> 02:28:30.600
property in February of 2021.

02:28:30.600 --> 02:28:32.620
So it was sometime since this owner has purchased it that

02:28:32.620 --> 02:28:34.040
electricity has been cut off to those

02:28:34.040 --> 02:28:35.040
buildings.

02:28:35.040 --> 02:28:37.290
But a generator would not be sufficient for someone to

02:28:37.290 --> 02:28:38.040
obtain a seat.

02:28:38.040 --> 02:28:42.079
You have to have proper electricity to your building.

02:28:42.079 --> 02:28:44.809
Regarding the rent payments and the discussion of that, I

02:28:44.809 --> 02:28:46.440
just wanted to point out that rent

02:28:46.440 --> 02:28:49.239
payment alone would not substantiate a use of the building.

02:28:49.239 --> 02:28:51.170
That does not provide us any evidence as to what was

02:28:51.170 --> 02:28:52.600
occurring within the building for

02:28:52.600 --> 02:28:53.600
which the payment was made.

02:28:53.600 --> 02:28:56.979
Again, the important thing here is we have no evidence of

02:28:56.979 --> 02:28:58.760
any use having continuously

02:28:58.760 --> 02:29:01.760
occurred since prior to annexation.

02:29:01.760 --> 02:29:04.360
So establishment, finding that there is now a non-perform

02:29:04.360 --> 02:29:05.799
ing right would essentially be

02:29:05.799 --> 02:29:09.620
establishing the illegal use of the property because we do

02:29:09.620 --> 02:29:11.600
not have that use history.

02:29:11.600 --> 02:29:14.149
And then finally, I wanted to address the assertion that

02:29:14.149 --> 02:29:15.360
they haven't applied for a

02:29:15.360 --> 02:29:18.079
zoning because that would take two years.

02:29:18.079 --> 02:29:20.389
The average zoning application for a straight zoning would

02:29:20.389 --> 02:29:21.559
take no more than three to six

02:29:21.559 --> 02:29:24.280
months and would both remedy the issue of their property

02:29:24.280 --> 02:29:25.879
not having sufficient acreage

02:29:25.879 --> 02:29:28.879
for the current zoning and the use of the building.

02:29:28.879 --> 02:29:33.879
I'm happy to answer any other questions you all may have.

02:29:33.879 --> 02:29:34.879
Sharon?

02:29:34.879 --> 02:29:38.879
Yeah, sorry, I guess I forgot to report.

02:29:38.879 --> 02:29:40.879
Does the Board members have any questions for us?

02:29:40.879 --> 02:29:41.879
That's okay.

02:29:41.879 --> 02:29:47.090
I'm sorry, can you clarify when electricity stopped being

02:29:47.090 --> 02:29:47.879
used?

02:29:47.879 --> 02:29:50.879
Did you say it was in 2021?

02:29:50.879 --> 02:29:52.879
The total of 2021 is the record.

02:29:52.879 --> 02:29:56.879
And the purchase by the new owner was in 23?

02:29:56.879 --> 02:29:59.879
No, it was in February 2021.

02:29:59.879 --> 02:30:02.739
The 2023 date is when they asserted in their affidavit that

02:30:02.739 --> 02:30:04.879
Esparza began occupying building

02:30:04.879 --> 02:30:06.879
910 on the last month basis.

02:30:06.879 --> 02:30:07.879
Thank you.

02:30:07.879 --> 02:30:08.879
Thank you.

02:30:08.879 --> 02:30:09.879
Question.

02:30:09.879 --> 02:30:13.879
So there was use of electricity beforehand?

02:30:13.879 --> 02:30:15.879
Like there was utility bills before?

02:30:15.879 --> 02:30:17.879
Correct, there were utility bills.

02:30:17.879 --> 02:30:20.879
I have to look back at my slides, I believe from 2011 until

02:30:20.879 --> 02:30:22.879
April 2021 there was continuous

02:30:22.879 --> 02:30:23.879
electricity.

02:30:23.879 --> 02:30:24.879
Okay.

02:30:24.879 --> 02:30:31.409
And if, what is the, I guess, to establish use, are there

02:30:31.409 --> 02:30:37.879
any besides CO and alternatives

02:30:37.879 --> 02:30:41.149
like, I mean, especially if you newly annex something, are

02:30:41.149 --> 02:30:42.879
there alternatives to provide

02:30:42.879 --> 02:30:47.149
the city the info needed to prove, I guess, usage or occup

02:30:47.149 --> 02:30:47.879
ancy?

02:30:47.879 --> 02:30:49.879
I'm sure we are willing to accept any and all evidence.

02:30:49.879 --> 02:30:52.719
There are some examples listed on our zoning verification

02:30:52.719 --> 02:30:54.879
application related to non-conformities

02:30:54.879 --> 02:30:57.440
that includes things such as photographic evidence, you

02:30:57.440 --> 02:30:59.879
know, of signs on the building, or in some

02:30:59.879 --> 02:31:02.829
cases we've accepted like here's proof of auto lifts with a

02:31:02.829 --> 02:31:04.879
car on the inside of the

02:31:04.879 --> 02:31:07.170
building to prove that there was an automotive use

02:31:07.170 --> 02:31:07.879
occurring.

02:31:07.879 --> 02:31:11.030
So electric accounts with the company's name on them, le

02:31:11.030 --> 02:31:12.879
ases, anything of that sort.

02:31:12.879 --> 02:31:18.500
We're happy to look at any evidence that someone can

02:31:18.500 --> 02:31:19.879
provide.

02:31:19.879 --> 02:31:25.899
Are there any other additional questions or which one's

02:31:25.899 --> 02:31:26.879
safe?

02:31:26.879 --> 02:31:27.879
Okay.

02:31:27.879 --> 02:31:28.879
Okay, none.

02:31:28.879 --> 02:31:30.879
Thank you for coming up again.

02:31:30.879 --> 02:31:33.239
Does the appellant/applicant have any rebuttal comments

02:31:33.239 --> 02:31:34.879
that could follow the statements?

02:31:34.879 --> 02:31:37.879
No.

02:31:37.879 --> 02:31:40.879
Okay.

02:31:40.879 --> 02:31:45.879
No worries.

02:31:45.879 --> 02:31:52.969
Do any board members have any additional questions for

02:31:52.969 --> 02:31:56.879
openness to the appellant?

02:31:56.879 --> 02:31:57.879
Okay, same none.

02:31:57.879 --> 02:32:01.170
Now that the applicant and the city have presented their

02:32:01.170 --> 02:32:03.879
testimony, evidence, and arguments,

02:32:03.879 --> 02:32:11.290
this is a public hearing, is there anyone who wishes to

02:32:11.290 --> 02:32:15.879
speak in support of the appeal?

02:32:15.879 --> 02:32:23.350
Is there anyone who wishes to speak in opposition to the

02:32:23.350 --> 02:32:24.879
appeal?

02:32:24.879 --> 02:32:30.780
After hearing all the testimony, evidence, and arguments,

02:32:30.780 --> 02:32:33.879
questions and answers, as well

02:32:33.879 --> 02:32:36.530
as hearing from all those desiring to speak in support and

02:32:36.530 --> 02:32:37.879
in opposition to the appeal,

02:32:37.879 --> 02:32:42.239
I will entertain further questions from the board for any

02:32:42.239 --> 02:32:44.879
of the parties or the speakers.

02:32:44.879 --> 02:32:45.879
Yes.

02:32:45.879 --> 02:32:46.879
Yes.

02:32:46.879 --> 02:32:47.879
So.

02:32:47.879 --> 02:32:48.879
And who is it addressed to?

02:32:48.879 --> 02:32:54.100
Actually, this is more, I guess, a process question of more

02:32:54.100 --> 02:32:55.879
of what they have.

02:32:55.879 --> 02:33:02.520
They said if we deny, they asked for a delay in the

02:33:02.520 --> 02:33:04.879
designation.

02:33:04.879 --> 02:33:08.879
What is it?

02:33:08.879 --> 02:33:10.879
Like it was.

02:33:10.879 --> 02:33:12.879
A firm reverse amend.

02:33:12.879 --> 02:33:14.879
Yeah, of like the opposite.

02:33:14.879 --> 02:33:18.700
The request was that their request for the delay of

02:33:18.700 --> 02:33:21.879
determination of discontinuance would

02:33:21.879 --> 02:33:23.879
require that you find there are not conformal rights.

02:33:23.879 --> 02:33:24.879
Okay.

02:33:24.879 --> 02:33:25.879
To be continued for that additional year.

02:33:25.879 --> 02:33:26.879
Okay.

02:33:26.879 --> 02:33:27.879
Okay.

02:33:27.879 --> 02:33:28.879
Not sure if that helps clarify.

02:33:28.879 --> 02:33:29.879
No, it does.

02:33:29.879 --> 02:33:32.879
It does what I plan.

02:33:32.879 --> 02:33:33.879
Yeah.

02:33:33.879 --> 02:33:41.690
Are there any additional questions for any parties involved

02:33:41.690 --> 02:33:43.879
in the matter?

02:33:43.879 --> 02:33:44.879
Okay.

02:33:44.879 --> 02:33:47.620
Once this hearing is closed, there will be no more evidence

02:33:47.620 --> 02:33:48.879
or testimony provided.

02:33:48.879 --> 02:33:55.879
This is the last opportunity to ask questions.

02:33:55.879 --> 02:33:59.680
Okay.

02:33:59.680 --> 02:34:01.879
Hearing none, I close the public hearing.

02:34:01.879 --> 02:34:02.879
Next slide.

02:34:02.879 --> 02:34:03.879
Deliberation.

02:34:03.879 --> 02:34:04.879
All right.

02:34:04.879 --> 02:34:09.879
The deliberation is in the second meeting.

02:34:09.879 --> 02:34:10.879
Okay.

02:34:10.879 --> 02:34:11.879
So then.

02:34:11.879 --> 02:34:12.879
Okay.

02:34:12.879 --> 02:34:15.879
Next item on the agenda is concluding items.

02:34:15.879 --> 02:34:18.879
Are there any concluding items for tonight?

02:34:18.879 --> 02:34:19.879
Okay.

02:34:19.879 --> 02:34:27.420
Hearing no further items, I adjourn the meeting at 8.55 p.m

02:34:27.420 --> 02:34:27.879
.