1
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Okay, it's six o'clock.

2
00:00:07,679 --> 00:00:11,679
We're up three minutes past the start time.

3
00:00:11,679 --> 00:00:15,279
I would like to propose if the board is willing, if we wait

4
00:00:15,279 --> 00:00:16,760
an additional 10 to 15 minutes

5
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,879
to see if our last member will show up and if by 615 he

6
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doesn't, I'd say we could see

7
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about calling the meeting or at least shattering it if we

8
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don't have more room.

9
00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,800
Does that seem reasonable to the board?

10
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,799
Did we put in back what you gave hope of them?

11
00:00:33,799 --> 00:00:35,799
Unfortunately, we didn't.

12
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Is it possible to have any kind of a discussion, aspects to

13
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it, but not take it to a vote?

14
00:00:47,799 --> 00:00:49,799
Okay.

15
00:00:58,799 --> 00:01:01,700
So I take it you weren't able to get a hold of the

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microphone?

17
00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:04,799
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to.

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00:01:06,799 --> 00:01:08,799
End of day.

19
00:01:08,799 --> 00:01:10,799
Sorry about that.

20
00:01:10,799 --> 00:01:11,799
Okay.

21
00:01:11,799 --> 00:01:14,790
After determining that a quorum is present, I hereby call

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00:01:14,790 --> 00:01:15,799
this meeting of the City of

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00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:18,799
Denton Zoning Board of Adjustment in session.

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00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:21,500
The Zoning Board of Adjustment of the City of Denton of

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00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:22,799
Texas will convene in the first

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of two regular meetings at 615 p.m.

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The second regular meeting is scheduled to convene at 630 p

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.m.

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Item number one on our agenda is the U.S. and Texas Pledge

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00:01:34,989 --> 00:01:35,799
of Allegiance.

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of

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America and to the republic for

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which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with

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liberty and justice for all.

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Now for the Texas Pledge.

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Honor to the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the Texas,

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one state, under God, one, indivisible.

38
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My name is Connor Hall.

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I am the chair of the Zoning Board of Adjustment of the

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City of Denton for this evening's meeting.

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Prior to commencing our hearings, I would like to review

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00:02:19,479 --> 00:02:22,800
our meeting format for the benefit of those in attendance.

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00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,080
The board consists of seven regular members and three

44
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:25,800
alternates.

45
00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,599
The members of the Zoning Board of Adjustment are residents

46
00:02:28,599 --> 00:02:29,800
of the City of Denton.

47
00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,830
We serve voluntarily and have been appointed to our

48
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position by the city council.

49
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,800
It takes six votes to reverse or modify any determination

50
00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,800
of an administrative official on appeal.

51
00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,379
Citizens wishing to participate may submit a white card to

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00:02:46,379 --> 00:02:48,800
indicate their position on an item.

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00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,370
Citizens may also make virtual comments using the e-comment

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module made available when the agenda was posted online.

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Similar to when a citizen submits a white card to indicate

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00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:01,800
their position on an item,

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00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,419
the e-comments will be sent directly to members of the Z

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00:03:04,419 --> 00:03:07,800
oning Board of Adjustment and recorded by the secretary.

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00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,180
E-comments may be submitted up until the start of the

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meeting, at which the time the ability to make an e-comment

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will be closed.

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Citizens wishing to speak may submit a blue card.

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All speakers are to state their name and address for the

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record.

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In consideration of other speakers, comments will be

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limited to four minutes unless otherwise specified by the

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chair and information relevant to our agenda items.

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We will now commence with our regularly scheduled agenda.

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Item number 2A, consider the approval of the April 6, 2026

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00:03:46,770 --> 00:03:47,800
minutes.

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Each member of the board has been provided with a copy of

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these minutes.

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Are there any corrections, additions, or deletions to these

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minutes?

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00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,439
Okay, hearing none, the chair would entertain a motion on

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item number 2B.

77
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,800
I motion to have a second of minutes.

78
00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:07,800
Okay.

79
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:08,800
I make a second.

80
00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:09,800
Okay.

81
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:10,800
Excellent.

82
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,520
Having received a motion for a second, is there any further

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00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,800
discussion on the minutes from last meeting?

84
00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:18,800
Okay.

85
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,089
There being no further discussion, please vote on the

86
00:04:22,089 --> 00:04:22,800
motion.

87
00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,540
All in favor of approving the minutes as presented, raise

88
00:04:25,540 --> 00:04:26,800
your hands and say aye.

89
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:27,800
Aye.

90
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:28,800
Aye.

91
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:29,800
Okay.

92
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:30,800
The ayes have it.

93
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,139
So the results of the vote are six in favor and zero

94
00:04:33,139 --> 00:04:33,800
against.

95
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,800
The minutes are approved.

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00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,160
Now for item number 2B, receive a report and hold a

97
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,800
discussion regarding non-conforming rights.

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00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,230
The discussion will include but is not limited to the state

99
00:04:49,230 --> 00:04:52,800
statutes and local regulations, types of non-conformities,

100
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,800
and process related to the discontinuities.

101
00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,800
And in the interest of time.

102
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,800
I love how ready you are.

103
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:10,800
Good evening.

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00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,800
I'm Julie Wyatt, principal planner with the city of Denton.

105
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And we're going to talk a little bit about non-conforming

106
00:05:15,009 --> 00:05:15,800
rights tonight.

107
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,850
So generally a non-conformity is a land use or structure

108
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that was lawfully established but no longer meets the

109
00:05:25,129 --> 00:05:27,800
current zoning or development standards.

110
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So for example, a building was built decades ago and at the

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time it met the setback in the new standards.

112
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But since then regulations have changed and so it no longer

113
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meets those standards.

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What is the purpose of non-conforming regulations?

115
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The debt development code in section 1.5.1 talks about this

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and the reasons that it gives are to curtail substantial

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investment in non-conformities.

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To bring about their eventual elimination and then preserve

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the integrity of the debt development code in the goals of

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the city of Denton.

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Now we're going to talk briefly about state law as it

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00:06:07,220 --> 00:06:09,800
relates to non-conforming rights.

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So the Texas Local Government Code has two sections that

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deal with non-conforming rights within the state of Texas.

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Section 2.11 talks about that a municipality has two

126
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options when it comes to non-conforming uses.

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First, it can allow the non-conforming use to continue in

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the same manner.

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And the second option is to require a non-conforming use to

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cease operation.

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Now there's a really specific process related to this.

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It requires an official action, specific timelines,

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notification.

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And then there is a payment to an owner or lessee for loss

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of market value or expenses or allow that use to continue

136
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until those costs have been recovered.

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It is important to note that this does not apply to non-con

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forming uses that have been intentionally abandoned for at

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least six months.

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Section 43 talks about non-conforming rights when they are

141
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applied to annexation.

142
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So annex property, a municipality must allow the

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continuation of a use that was legally existing or planned

144
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to occur prior to annexation.

145
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And that is subject to some limitations.

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But that does not prohibit a municipality from imposing

147
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regulations relating to SOBs and destruction, public nuis

148
00:07:30,550 --> 00:07:34,800
ances, flood control, hazardous substances, or fireworks.

149
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,750
Aside from certain retail uses, this section of state law

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does not specify a timeframe for how long a municipality

151
00:07:42,550 --> 00:07:44,800
must allow a use to continue.

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Now, after state law, we're going to talk about the

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regulations and the DENT Development Code.

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So all of our regulations related to non-conforming rights

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are outlined in Section 1.5.

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As I mentioned at the top of the presentation,

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DDC 1.5.1 discusses that non-conforming uses are regulated

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in order to limit the development and continued existence

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of land building structures, uses, and site features,

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which once again were lawfully established prior to the

161
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effective date, but are no longer conformed to the DENT

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00:08:23,949 --> 00:08:25,800
Development Code.

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There are general regulations related to non-conforming

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uses.

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Generally, a non-conforming use can continue or a non-con

166
00:08:34,220 --> 00:08:38,460
formity can continue to be used and occupied, but there are

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limitations in the DENT Development Code.

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We allow minor maintenance and repairs.

169
00:08:44,799 --> 00:08:48,799
So you can repair the roof, you can repair the plumbing,

170
00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:51,799
restripe the parking, or replace landscaping.

171
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But the degree of non-conforming cannot be increased by any

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action.

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And this really is related to the land use in the land.

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So changes in ownership, tenant management does not change

175
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the non-conforming regulations as they apply to the

176
00:09:07,759 --> 00:09:08,799
property.

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The DENT Development Code identifies four types of non-con

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formities.

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First, a non-conforming use that is in the use of the land,

180
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again established legally, but no longer conforms to the

181
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zoning.

182
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For example, somebody builds a gas station along a rural

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road.

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But now it's in the middle of a residential neighborhood.

185
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So there are limitations to that continuation of use.

186
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It may be expanded throughout the same building, provided

187
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that no structural alterations, additional dwelling units,

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00:09:38,799 --> 00:09:41,799
or non-residential units shall be permitted.

189
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And it may not expand into an additional structure.

190
00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:50,799
The use can change to a lesser impact non-conforming use,

191
00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:53,710
but once it's changed to another non-conforming use, it can

192
00:09:53,710 --> 00:09:54,799
't go backwards.

193
00:09:54,799 --> 00:09:57,799
There's also non-conforming structure.

194
00:09:57,799 --> 00:10:00,110
That's any structure that was established or constructed

195
00:10:00,110 --> 00:10:02,340
legally, but no longer conforms to the DENT Development

196
00:10:02,340 --> 00:10:02,799
Code.

197
00:10:02,799 --> 00:10:06,750
This is things like setbacks, like a building that doesn't

198
00:10:06,750 --> 00:10:11,799
need a 10-foot setback, where it's too close to the road.

199
00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:15,450
Expansions require that any new portion of the structure

200
00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:17,799
conform to current regulations.

201
00:10:17,799 --> 00:10:22,409
So you couldn't continue to add in that area that encro

202
00:10:22,409 --> 00:10:24,799
aches into the setback.

203
00:10:24,799 --> 00:10:28,000
A non-conforming lot, a lot that is legally established

204
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,340
prior to current regulations, but does not comply with

205
00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:33,799
crime zoning dimensional standards.

206
00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:39,259
So you have a 9,000 square foot lot, flat in 1970, but it's

207
00:10:39,259 --> 00:10:40,799
now suburban corridor.

208
00:10:40,799 --> 00:10:44,299
So it doesn't meet the minimum lot size of 10,000 square

209
00:10:44,299 --> 00:10:44,799
feet.

210
00:10:44,799 --> 00:10:47,870
Now, the DENT Development Code does discuss that a lot made

211
00:10:47,870 --> 00:10:51,350
non-conforming by the 2019 DENT Development Code may be

212
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:55,179
used for construction of a building in the applicable

213
00:10:55,179 --> 00:10:55,799
zoning district,

214
00:10:55,799 --> 00:10:57,639
but it still has to meet all those dimensional requirements

215
00:10:57,639 --> 00:10:57,799
.

216
00:10:57,799 --> 00:11:01,139
So even though it might be a smaller lot, it still has to

217
00:11:01,139 --> 00:11:04,799
meet all building coverage and setback requirements.

218
00:11:04,799 --> 00:11:08,059
And then finally, the fourth one is a non-conforming site

219
00:11:08,059 --> 00:11:08,799
feature.

220
00:11:08,799 --> 00:11:11,330
These are things like driveways, off-street parking,

221
00:11:11,330 --> 00:11:14,029
loading areas, building coverage, landscape buffer, or

222
00:11:14,029 --> 00:11:14,799
screening.

223
00:11:14,799 --> 00:11:17,799
So all of those other things that go into making up a site.

224
00:11:17,799 --> 00:11:21,129
Once again, legally established, but now no longer meets

225
00:11:21,129 --> 00:11:22,799
the minimum regulations.

226
00:11:22,799 --> 00:11:27,980
So for instance, a building built in 1995 has 200 parking

227
00:11:27,980 --> 00:11:28,799
spaces.

228
00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:31,799
We didn't have parking maximums at the time.

229
00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:35,799
Now the parking regulations would only allow 100 spaces.

230
00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:38,799
So that would be a non-conforming site feature.

231
00:11:38,799 --> 00:11:40,799
Now that can continue.

232
00:11:40,799 --> 00:11:42,799
They can remain in place.

233
00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:44,970
But any expansions would have to conform to the DENT

234
00:11:44,970 --> 00:11:46,799
Development Code.

235
00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:49,799
So they couldn't add additional parking spaces.

236
00:11:49,799 --> 00:11:51,799
Does that make sense?

237
00:11:51,799 --> 00:11:52,799
All right.

238
00:11:52,799 --> 00:11:55,799
So this is where it gets a little more complicated.

239
00:11:55,799 --> 00:11:56,799
Discontinuance.

240
00:11:56,799 --> 00:12:00,940
So if a non-conforming user structure is voluntarily

241
00:12:00,940 --> 00:12:03,799
discontinued for one year or more,

242
00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:07,009
the DENT Development Code states that all non-conforming

243
00:12:07,009 --> 00:12:07,799
rights cease,

244
00:12:07,799 --> 00:12:11,409
and the user occupancy cannot be continued unless in

245
00:12:11,409 --> 00:12:14,799
conformance with the DENT Development Code.

246
00:12:14,799 --> 00:12:19,840
So one year, and then those non-conforming rights will

247
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:20,799
cease.

248
00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:26,629
However, that determination of discontinued status may be

249
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:31,370
delayed for up to one year by the director if a written

250
00:12:31,370 --> 00:12:32,799
request is provided,

251
00:12:32,799 --> 00:12:35,559
and that there is a documentation that the property has

252
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,169
been actively marketed for at least six months during the

253
00:12:38,169 --> 00:12:38,799
previous year.

254
00:12:38,799 --> 00:12:46,610
So it was listed for sale for that use, or it was trying to

255
00:12:46,610 --> 00:12:49,799
obtain a tenant for that use.

256
00:12:49,799 --> 00:12:51,799
And so I've created a diagram.

257
00:12:51,799 --> 00:12:54,799
Hopefully it will better describe it.

258
00:12:54,799 --> 00:12:57,799
So day one, non-conforming use ceases.

259
00:12:57,799 --> 00:13:00,799
So the tenant moves out of the building day one.

260
00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:05,370
Day 10, in this hypothetical, the property owner markets

261
00:13:05,370 --> 00:13:07,799
the property for lease or sale.

262
00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:12,070
After six months and 10 days, the property owner ceases to

263
00:13:12,070 --> 00:13:13,799
market, ceases marketing the property.

264
00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:16,799
It's like, "Ah, I'm not going to market anymore."

265
00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:20,519
Prior to that one-year mark, the owner requests

266
00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:23,799
determination, delay, and writing.

267
00:13:23,799 --> 00:13:27,889
At that point, the director can approve that one-year delay

268
00:13:27,889 --> 00:13:32,230
in determination of discontinued status if the property

269
00:13:32,230 --> 00:13:36,340
owner adequately provides that written request and the

270
00:13:36,340 --> 00:13:37,799
documentation.

271
00:13:37,799 --> 00:13:42,559
From there, they have another calendar year to either re

272
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:47,799
establish the use or the non-conforming rights will cease.

273
00:13:47,799 --> 00:13:49,799
So is that clear?

274
00:13:49,799 --> 00:13:54,360
It can get a little confusing because it does give an extra

275
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,830
year if the property had been marketed for at least six

276
00:13:58,830 --> 00:14:06,799
months during that first year of the use of CXA.

277
00:14:06,799 --> 00:14:10,620
Discontinuance due to damage or destruction, and this is a

278
00:14:10,620 --> 00:14:12,799
natural or accidental cause.

279
00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:16,090
If less than 50% of the gross floor area is damaged or

280
00:14:16,090 --> 00:14:19,799
destroyed, it can be restored in the original condition.

281
00:14:19,799 --> 00:14:24,690
However, anything over 50%, it could not be rebuilt or

282
00:14:24,690 --> 00:14:25,799
occupied.

283
00:14:25,799 --> 00:14:28,799
Then the DIP Development Code also has amortization.

284
00:14:28,799 --> 00:14:33,799
That's where city council could say, "Hey, property owner,

285
00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:37,610
we are giving a formal action that you are to cease

286
00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:38,799
operations,

287
00:14:38,799 --> 00:14:42,429
but then you have to amortize that non-conforming structure

288
00:14:42,429 --> 00:14:42,799
."

289
00:14:42,799 --> 00:14:48,299
So allow them to continue until that market value has been

290
00:14:48,299 --> 00:14:51,799
provided to that property owner.

291
00:14:51,799 --> 00:14:55,210
The DPA would be responsible for setting a plan for

292
00:14:55,210 --> 00:14:59,799
compensation and/or establishing a determination timeline.

293
00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:03,409
Again, state law has those additional requirements, things

294
00:15:03,409 --> 00:15:06,799
like notification time and the types of compensation.

295
00:15:06,799 --> 00:15:09,799
So it's a pretty tricky business.

296
00:15:09,799 --> 00:15:13,090
Then there are other options for property owners when it

297
00:15:13,090 --> 00:15:14,799
comes to non-conforming.

298
00:15:14,799 --> 00:15:17,750
First, they could seek approval of a subdivision for

299
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:20,799
variance from the Planning and Zoning Commission.

300
00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:23,340
So say it doesn't meet the minimum setbacks, they could

301
00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:28,799
request from the Planning and Zoning Commission a lot size.

302
00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:32,720
They could request a variance from the Planning and Zoning

303
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:33,799
Commission.

304
00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:36,860
They could also seek a variance from the Zoning Board of

305
00:15:36,860 --> 00:15:37,799
Adjustment.

306
00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:40,799
Now that is not for use. There is no variance for use.

307
00:15:40,799 --> 00:15:44,519
But they could seek a variance for something other than use

308
00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:44,799
.

309
00:15:44,799 --> 00:15:48,070
A non-conforming could be modified to come into compliance

310
00:15:48,070 --> 00:15:51,799
with the DIP Development Code and become conforming.

311
00:15:51,799 --> 00:15:54,879
Or the property could be rezoned to a district that permits

312
00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:56,799
the use or has different standards.

313
00:15:56,799 --> 00:16:00,899
Or the 2019 Development Code has plan development, so a

314
00:16:00,899 --> 00:16:04,370
property owner could seek a plan development, particularly

315
00:16:04,370 --> 00:16:07,730
if their use is very unique or their site conditions are

316
00:16:07,730 --> 00:16:08,799
very unique.

317
00:16:08,799 --> 00:16:13,799
So with that, I'll be happy to answer any questions.

318
00:16:13,799 --> 00:16:15,799
And that's the presentation.

319
00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:19,159
Would you go back to your chart where you were saying yes,

320
00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:19,799
that is?

321
00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:20,799
Yes.

322
00:16:20,799 --> 00:16:26,590
Okay. So non-conforming use happens, whatever reason it

323
00:16:26,590 --> 00:16:27,799
happens.

324
00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:31,049
They're marketing it. As long as they market it for six

325
00:16:31,049 --> 00:16:33,799
months, doesn't matter when it starts.

326
00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:37,960
Like in your example, it was day 10, but maybe they don't

327
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,799
start until month five.

328
00:16:39,799 --> 00:16:42,799
As long as it's six months within that first year.

329
00:16:42,799 --> 00:16:43,799
Okay.

330
00:16:43,799 --> 00:16:46,799
So yes, they could. You're right. Anytime during that year.

331
00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:47,799
Okay.

332
00:16:47,799 --> 00:16:52,090
All right. And then they have to request it in writing for

333
00:16:52,090 --> 00:16:57,799
an additional year, which would be 364 days from day one.

334
00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:00,799
It would be a year plus.

335
00:17:00,799 --> 00:17:01,799
Yes.

336
00:17:01,799 --> 00:17:03,799
Okay.

337
00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:08,029
The day it seizes, 12 months in writing whenever within

338
00:17:08,029 --> 00:17:09,799
their 12 months.

339
00:17:09,799 --> 00:17:10,799
12 months.

340
00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:11,799
Correct.

341
00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:12,799
Correct.

342
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:16,880
And remember, during that, with that request in writing,

343
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,799
they do have to provide that evidence that the property was

344
00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:21,799
marketed.

345
00:17:21,799 --> 00:17:24,799
Okay. Thank you.

346
00:17:24,799 --> 00:17:28,799
Any other questions for our presenter?

347
00:17:28,799 --> 00:17:30,799
Do you have?

348
00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:31,799
No.

349
00:17:31,799 --> 00:17:33,799
All right. Thank you for coming up to present.

350
00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:34,799
Thank you.

351
00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:36,799
All right.

352
00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:39,950
In the interest of time, I will swear in all witnesses for

353
00:17:39,950 --> 00:17:42,980
the public hearings, the variance and appeal that are

354
00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:44,799
scheduled for today's meeting.

355
00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:49,750
Will all witnesses who will provide testimony or

356
00:17:49,750 --> 00:17:55,759
information at today's meeting, please stand up and raise

357
00:17:55,759 --> 00:17:57,799
your right hand.

358
00:17:57,799 --> 00:18:01,079
Under penalty of pre-jury, do you swear or affirm that any

359
00:18:01,079 --> 00:18:04,420
testimony or information you provide or any statement you

360
00:18:04,420 --> 00:18:07,799
make before this board is complete, true, and correct to

361
00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:09,799
the best of your knowledge and ability?

362
00:18:09,799 --> 00:18:11,799
If so, please answer, I do.

363
00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:12,799
I do.

364
00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:13,799
Okay.

365
00:18:13,799 --> 00:18:17,779
Is there any witness who was unable or unwilling to take

366
00:18:17,779 --> 00:18:18,799
this oath?

367
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:19,799
Okay.

368
00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:22,799
Seeing none, I feel free to pass the.

369
00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:25,809
In order to ensure an orderly meeting, the hearing

370
00:18:25,809 --> 00:18:28,799
procedure for each variance will be as follows.

371
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:32,140
No person shall speak unless they are recognized by the

372
00:18:32,140 --> 00:18:35,799
chair to speak and then shall only speak from the podium.

373
00:18:35,799 --> 00:18:39,799
First, the city's presentation questions for the board.

374
00:18:39,799 --> 00:18:44,799
Next, applicant presentation and questions for the board.

375
00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:48,769
Then after the parties have finished their presentations,

376
00:18:48,769 --> 00:18:51,799
members of the public may speak on the item.

377
00:18:51,799 --> 00:18:55,869
And finally, the board may ask any follow up questions of

378
00:18:55,869 --> 00:18:59,859
staff or applicant that were raised by the public and not

379
00:18:59,859 --> 00:19:01,799
previously answered.

380
00:19:01,799 --> 00:19:06,750
At that conclusion of the evidence, I will close the public

381
00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:07,799
hearing.

382
00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:13,380
So moving on to item number 3A is to hold a public hearing

383
00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:17,539
and consider approval of the variance from Chapter 33 signs

384
00:19:17,539 --> 00:19:20,799
and advertising devices of the code of ordinances.

385
00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:26,400
Specifically, section 33.14.2C as it relates to the minimum

386
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,799
setback from the side yard property line.

387
00:19:29,799 --> 00:19:32,099
To allow for a sign with a side yard setback of

388
00:19:32,099 --> 00:19:35,259
approximately 3 feet and 7 meters from the existing gas

389
00:19:35,259 --> 00:19:35,799
station.

390
00:19:35,799 --> 00:19:40,609
Located on an approximately .23 acre property on the south

391
00:19:40,609 --> 00:19:45,079
side of Eagle Drive and approximately 235 feet west of

392
00:19:45,079 --> 00:19:46,799
Cleveland Street.

393
00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:50,940
The union board, the map of the assistant planner, here to

394
00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:53,799
present the Texas Code of Sign Variance.

395
00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:57,140
I will give them some background, go over the variance

396
00:19:57,140 --> 00:20:02,150
requests and then each of the criteria for approval that

397
00:20:02,150 --> 00:20:05,799
are assessed during approval of the variance.

398
00:20:05,799 --> 00:20:07,799
So to give them some background.

399
00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:12,160
So this sign variance is for an existing sign with the gas

400
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,619
station on Eagle Drive seen in the picture on the top there

401
00:20:16,619 --> 00:20:17,799
on the screen.

402
00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:22,009
So how we got here, so the property owner recently removed

403
00:20:22,009 --> 00:20:26,019
a pole sign that's shown in the picture at the bottom on

404
00:20:26,019 --> 00:20:26,799
the site.

405
00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:30,559
And then placed the current monument sign in roughly the

406
00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:31,799
same location.

407
00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:35,549
To clarify, at this time they did not have the final

408
00:20:35,549 --> 00:20:40,559
permits, they did submit an application but failed the

409
00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:45,799
final inspection because they were in need of a variance.

410
00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:49,880
So in order to keep the sign where it is, they submitted a

411
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,980
variance request from the minimum setback from the side

412
00:20:53,980 --> 00:20:55,799
yard property line.

413
00:20:55,799 --> 00:21:00,049
So the sign code requires that all freestanding signs be at

414
00:21:00,049 --> 00:21:03,799
least 10 feet from that side property line.

415
00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:08,569
This existing sign is about 3 feet 7 inches from that

416
00:21:08,569 --> 00:21:13,750
property line so they're requesting a setback difference of

417
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:15,799
6 feet 5 inches.

418
00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:19,519
This is the only request especially with the signs that do

419
00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:21,799
need all other sign standards.

420
00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:25,950
So to go to the criteria for approval of the variance, the

421
00:21:25,950 --> 00:21:29,119
first one being that due to some unique condition of the

422
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,430
property, literal compliance with the sign code would cause

423
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:34,799
unnecessary hardship.

424
00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:39,140
So in this case, literal compliance would require the sign

425
00:21:39,140 --> 00:21:43,109
be moved into the middle of a driveway as kind of shown in

426
00:21:43,109 --> 00:21:44,799
this graph up here.

427
00:21:44,799 --> 00:21:47,799
This creates a clear safety hazard.

428
00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:51,799
For the applicant, the current location of the sign is

429
00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:56,059
really the only practical location this time could be that

430
00:21:56,059 --> 00:21:59,980
doesn't create a safety hazard without in turn requiring

431
00:21:59,980 --> 00:22:05,049
major redevelopment or renovation of the site, which would

432
00:22:05,049 --> 00:22:07,799
be an unnecessary hardship.

433
00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:12,490
Now while SAF certainly does find that to be an unnecessary

434
00:22:12,490 --> 00:22:17,279
hardship, the location of said drive-about being so close

435
00:22:17,279 --> 00:22:21,180
and thus requiring the sign, thus leading the sign to be

436
00:22:21,180 --> 00:22:24,799
where it is, is not necessarily a unique condition.

437
00:22:24,799 --> 00:22:29,039
While it is in the style of older development patterns have

438
00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:33,200
nearly the entire site paved over and would not be allowed

439
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,269
if the site were to redevelop today, regardless of that

440
00:22:37,269 --> 00:22:40,910
type of site properly setback, it is the style of

441
00:22:40,910 --> 00:22:43,799
development that we do see throughout the city in just

442
00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:47,799
older developments, so not necessarily unique.

443
00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:51,329
The second criteria being that the granting of the variance

444
00:22:51,329 --> 00:22:55,019
will not violate the spirit or intent of the ordinance. SAF

445
00:22:55,019 --> 00:22:58,730
finds that this variance would preserve the spirit of the

446
00:22:58,730 --> 00:23:02,500
sign code, particularly in that it's there to promote the

447
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:08,799
safety of the city's inhabitants by avoiding the sign

448
00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:12,690
becoming a safety hazard if it were to be placed in literal

449
00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:15,799
compliance with the sign code.

450
00:23:15,799 --> 00:23:20,910
The third criteria that the condition was not the result of

451
00:23:20,910 --> 00:23:26,650
the property and its actions. Based on tenure records, this

452
00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:32,160
site and its current layout was developed approximately in

453
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:38,799
1975, so well before the current owner purchased the site.

454
00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:42,599
Fourth, the board shall not grant a variance of any outcome

455
00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:47,069
solely for reasons unrelated to the property. This variance

456
00:23:47,069 --> 00:23:52,150
is due to conditions of that site location of that drywall

457
00:23:52,150 --> 00:23:57,259
causing the safety hazard and is therefore not solely for

458
00:23:57,259 --> 00:24:00,799
reasons unrelated to the property.

459
00:24:00,799 --> 00:24:05,430
So on to staff recommendation. So due to the site layout

460
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:09,970
and the location of that drywall not necessarily being a

461
00:24:09,970 --> 00:24:14,700
unique condition, we can't say, staff does not find that

462
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:19,710
all the criteria are strictly met, however staff does have

463
00:24:19,710 --> 00:24:24,029
no objection should the board find that this request does

464
00:24:24,029 --> 00:24:26,799
meet the spirit of intent of the sign code.

465
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:31,029
And then just to remind you practically, if the sign

466
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:35,829
variance is granted, the sign would be permitted to stay at

467
00:24:35,829 --> 00:24:40,630
the current location, if denied, the sign would have to be

468
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:41,799
removed.

469
00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:57,299
Okay, thank you. So before we get into the questions, the

470
00:24:57,299 --> 00:24:58,039
matter for the board is whether to grant a variance in city

471
00:24:58,039 --> 00:24:58,819
's development code regulations regarding the unlock that I

472
00:24:58,819 --> 00:24:59,500
now open the public hearing all witnesses for this case

473
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:04,799
have been previously sworn.

474
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:11,799
Do any board members have any questions for city staff?

475
00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:16,829
I want to go back one slide where you state that if it's

476
00:25:16,829 --> 00:25:22,450
denied, the sign is going to have to be removed. Based on

477
00:25:22,450 --> 00:25:28,180
all that, what with the removal being required, you would

478
00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:33,799
then require them to place their sign at the 10 foot set

479
00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:35,799
back from the site.

480
00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:43,079
Or where else are you suggesting any sign being located? My

481
00:25:43,079 --> 00:25:50,410
impression, it may be wrong, but if you remove the sign,

482
00:25:50,410 --> 00:25:57,980
you are removing an aspect of the business performing its

483
00:25:57,980 --> 00:26:00,799
duties as a business.

484
00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:06,359
So if I understood correctly, you're wondering if the sign

485
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:12,240
would be removed, where could it be placed? In that case,

486
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:18,119
it would still have to stay out of drive-outs, so there's a

487
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:24,359
reasonable probability that they could have this particular

488
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,799
sign on the property.

489
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:31,089
If you went to the slide that has the picture of the

490
00:26:31,089 --> 00:26:36,650
property per se, the instance here was we don't have the 10

491
00:26:36,650 --> 00:26:41,690
foot setback from the side, what is the requirement from

492
00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:46,869
the front, from your street? Is there a possibility the

493
00:26:46,869 --> 00:26:51,339
sign could be relocated in that position, or how much would

494
00:26:51,339 --> 00:26:55,799
that impact drive and therefore safety?

495
00:26:55,799 --> 00:27:00,220
So the front setback is 20 feet from the curb, which is

496
00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:04,579
currently based on a survey, and then extracted a little

497
00:27:04,579 --> 00:27:12,309
bit from it. It does meet that front setback, it's about 21

498
00:27:12,309 --> 00:27:16,799
feet away from the current curb. So as you just have to.

499
00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:21,339
So therefore, from what I'm seeing on there, it would mean

500
00:27:21,339 --> 00:27:25,410
that the sign would have to be, quote, "up on a pole,

501
00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:30,230
visible, perhaps, adjacently attached to what is the canopy

502
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:39,799
that goes over the pumps." Correct?

503
00:27:39,799 --> 00:27:43,670
That would be another decision. We have selected, there are

504
00:27:43,670 --> 00:27:46,880
multiple signs, so they had a separate sign that was

505
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,910
approved and finaled that's on the canopy. That's different

506
00:27:50,910 --> 00:27:52,799
from this sign in question.

507
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:55,799
Okay.

508
00:27:55,799 --> 00:28:01,450
Yes, I have a question regarding the signage itself. Are

509
00:28:01,450 --> 00:28:06,430
monument signs showing locations of businesses now

510
00:28:06,430 --> 00:28:11,859
preferred over signs that are on elevated poles, or does

511
00:28:11,859 --> 00:28:15,799
the city not really carry either way?

512
00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:18,970
We would just have to make sure it meets the height

513
00:28:18,970 --> 00:28:22,799
limitations, whether it's on a pole or in a monument.

514
00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:28,079
Sure, we'll. Was it non-conforming just due to position or

515
00:28:28,079 --> 00:28:29,799
for the type of sign that it was?

516
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:33,240
So this, are you referring to the previous? Yeah, the

517
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,869
previous. The previous sign was non-conforming for location

518
00:28:36,869 --> 00:28:38,799
and height. Okay.

519
00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:42,789
So this one is just location. Okay. So, and I guess, I don

520
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:46,579
't know if it would be a better question for the applicant,

521
00:28:46,579 --> 00:28:50,000
but were they replacing the sign to become more incon

522
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,799
forming with the height, or was the old sign this?

523
00:28:53,799 --> 00:28:59,619
So it is considered a new sign, so, because the old sign

524
00:28:59,619 --> 00:29:03,799
was new. I guess it's up to the board.

525
00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:06,970
Okay. So this new sign is more inconforming with the

526
00:29:06,970 --> 00:29:10,799
current deep, didn't develop a code than the previous one.

527
00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:13,799
If, like, how it is current.

528
00:29:13,799 --> 00:29:17,799
Correct.

529
00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:21,029
You said there is another sign on the canopy itself. Yeah,

530
00:29:21,029 --> 00:29:22,799
it's on the picture. Yes.

531
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:25,799
Oh, yeah.

532
00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:34,799
The circle one. The circle logo. Yeah, that's when you're

533
00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:34,799
driving by, you have to turn your neck to see it.

534
00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:36,799
Oh, yes, Member Ronsky.

535
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:40,859
Well, if you're referring to the, quote, Texaco circle sign

536
00:29:40,859 --> 00:29:45,359
, that's just their logo. It doesn't address the issue of

537
00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:49,789
the gas prices, which is, I think, what this, both the old

538
00:29:49,789 --> 00:29:52,799
and current sign are trying to do.

539
00:29:52,799 --> 00:30:06,799
And if they removed a legal, but not conforming, whole sign

540
00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:14,029
, and placed the monument in the same location, I'm looking

541
00:30:14,029 --> 00:30:18,799
at that as saying that the whole issue is, they didn't

542
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,799
address, somebody told them, hey, this doesn't conform.

543
00:30:21,799 --> 00:30:25,480
You need to go to Exit X, and they took it under advisement

544
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,380
, put it in, but they went, oops, and didn't put up a permit

545
00:30:29,380 --> 00:30:34,720
. So is it perhaps a case of asking forgiveness, which is

546
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:40,799
what we're doing right now, by allowing a variance?

547
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:50,799
Yes.

548
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:53,170
So, given the location, does it meet the setbacks? The city

549
00:30:53,170 --> 00:30:55,799
would not have been able to issue a permit for this sign.

550
00:30:55,799 --> 00:31:00,329
You're correct that it's less non-conforming, and that they

551
00:31:00,329 --> 00:31:04,809
addressed the height issue, but the location would never be

552
00:31:04,809 --> 00:31:06,799
able to be permitted.

553
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:10,160
So they could seek to put that sign anywhere else on the

554
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,960
property that meets setbacks. They could move the pricing

555
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,829
to the canopy, for example, or other locations, but that's

556
00:31:17,829 --> 00:31:21,019
not for staff to tell them where to put the sign on the

557
00:31:21,019 --> 00:31:22,220
side. It's to tell them, here's the sandbox you can play

558
00:31:22,220 --> 00:31:22,690
with, and it needs to fit with it there to get a permit for

559
00:31:22,690 --> 00:31:22,799
it.

560
00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:30,900
So then what I'm hearing or understanding is, okay, what

561
00:31:30,900 --> 00:31:39,799
was non-conforming, although legal, about the pole sign?

562
00:31:39,799 --> 00:31:43,799
The fact of the setback, or the fact of the height?

563
00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:46,960
To be clear, we have no proof to my knowledge of the

564
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,650
original permit to know that it was ever permitted to begin

565
00:31:50,650 --> 00:31:54,609
with. The sign that was previously there was non-conforming

566
00:31:54,609 --> 00:31:56,799
to both height and location.

567
00:31:56,799 --> 00:32:00,849
But either the sign code does not allow you to replace a

568
00:32:00,849 --> 00:32:02,799
non-conforming sign.

569
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:09,009
So if rather than replacing it, if there is just a way to

570
00:32:09,009 --> 00:32:15,630
quote "upgrade it" to the new technology without changing

571
00:32:15,630 --> 00:32:18,029
anything else. Had the structure of the sign been left in

572
00:32:18,029 --> 00:32:18,359
place, they perhaps could have refaced it if they had been

573
00:32:18,359 --> 00:32:18,670
able to show that it had been damaged or something, and

574
00:32:18,670 --> 00:32:20,799
only replaced the face of the sign.

575
00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:23,099
I believe there is an allowance for on the code that they

576
00:32:23,099 --> 00:32:25,400
have removed the structure of the sign so you cannot put

577
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,039
the sign back in that location to get a permit for it. It's

578
00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:29,799
not a variance being granted.

579
00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:33,170
You know, I understand the change in the structure. I was

580
00:32:33,170 --> 00:32:37,740
just kind of wondering what all factors make corporate or

581
00:32:37,740 --> 00:32:42,410
whoever take it into consideration and looked at in this,

582
00:32:42,410 --> 00:32:47,039
and whether or not all of those variances were available

583
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:50,799
for corporate in order to do their decision.

584
00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:53,819
Sure, to be fair, the criteria for you all were not

585
00:32:53,819 --> 00:32:57,500
necessarily corporate business related decisions, but the

586
00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:00,799
hardship criteria, I don't mind if you say, Paul.

587
00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:04,289
So there was, my understanding is there was a variance

588
00:33:04,289 --> 00:33:10,750
request submitted. It just wasn't processed when the sign

589
00:33:10,750 --> 00:33:12,799
was in place?

590
00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:18,529
I guess, as some clarification, so you did find the permit

591
00:33:18,529 --> 00:33:24,710
for the previous sign, it was permanent in 19. This is a

592
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:31,799
new sign, so any conformity rights don't necessarily apply.

593
00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:36,230
So this, and then I guess the answer, could you say your

594
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:37,799
question again? Sorry.

595
00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:42,099
I thought I heard that there was a, like a permit, a

596
00:33:42,099 --> 00:33:46,799
variance submitted and just not approved by the time the

597
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:48,799
sign was installed.

598
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:53,519
For this sign, they submitted applications, signed permit

599
00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:56,799
applications, no permit was finaled.

600
00:33:56,799 --> 00:33:59,799
So it was for the permit, not a variance to the code?

601
00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:02,799
Correct.

602
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:08,250
By sure, do you have a question? Yeah, so just timeline of

603
00:34:08,250 --> 00:34:11,409
this, there was the permit that was not approved and it

604
00:34:11,409 --> 00:34:15,800
wasn't, how long ago was that permit made?

605
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:24,570
I have it back here. So the city received applications for

606
00:34:24,570 --> 00:34:34,550
the sign permit of July 2025, and then this variance was

607
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:36,800
submitted.

608
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:46,800
I'm trying to remember. It was the beginning of June,

609
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:46,800
sometime this year.

610
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,800
And then how long has that sign been up? The new one?

611
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,800
Can't say for sure, definitely in the last year.

612
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:55,800
Okay.

613
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:04,800
I don't know.

614
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:11,800
Are there any other questions for our presenter?

615
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,650
Will the applicant please present any evidence or arguments

616
00:35:16,650 --> 00:35:18,800
to support the request?

617
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:28,800
Thank you for coming up to present Mr. Wheatley.

618
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:42,800
Thank you, Mr. Board. As you can see, pretty much my

619
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:42,800
presentation is pretty even.

620
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:49,699
On my branch code, branch request that I'm asking for, it

621
00:35:49,699 --> 00:35:57,010
doesn't need the requirements, the setback, the prompt set

622
00:35:57,010 --> 00:36:03,800
back or the site setback, adjacent to the next property.

623
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,829
As you can see in this picture, the old original sign was

624
00:36:08,829 --> 00:36:13,800
removed, and then we mounted the new monument sign,

625
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:19,269
everything was constructed exactly where the old sign used

626
00:36:19,269 --> 00:36:20,800
to be.

627
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,659
And a permit was pulled for this, and obviously the

628
00:36:25,659 --> 00:36:31,650
measurements and their measurements doesn't match, and they

629
00:36:31,650 --> 00:36:36,800
denied the permit after we already had pulled one.

630
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,909
I don't know what the difference will be on the

631
00:36:38,909 --> 00:36:39,800
measurements.

632
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,619
When we measured the side of the monument, side of the

633
00:36:42,619 --> 00:36:45,690
property, you can't quite see it here, but it's actually

634
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:48,710
the grass area that stands pretty far, so we measured the

635
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:51,969
whole section of the grass area, there's a little creek

636
00:36:51,969 --> 00:36:55,699
that goes there, so we measured the concrete that's in the

637
00:36:55,699 --> 00:37:00,429
other property, thinking that was the proper measurement of

638
00:37:00,429 --> 00:37:01,800
the property.

639
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,289
But at the end, when the city requested a survey, which we

640
00:37:05,289 --> 00:37:08,840
did, we added a survey here, we got a brand new survey, and

641
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,329
they came out saying it doesn't meet the requirements, we

642
00:37:12,329 --> 00:37:16,130
only 3 foot 7 inches from the adjacent property, or the

643
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:26,800
property, with the property as well.

644
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,159
And then on this particular situation here, in order for us

645
00:37:31,159 --> 00:37:36,800
to remove the monument sign back, or remove it more to the

646
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,429
outside of the parking lot, it's dangerous to pull the

647
00:37:39,429 --> 00:37:42,829
property because they won't be able to go around the gas

648
00:37:42,829 --> 00:37:47,460
station pumps, or they won't be able to, like we said, more

649
00:37:47,460 --> 00:37:50,800
back, people won't be able to see the sign at all.

650
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:57,570
Like we need to beat the 20 foot clearance from the street

651
00:37:57,570 --> 00:38:04,070
to where the sign is now, you're moving it 5 feet more far

652
00:38:04,070 --> 00:38:10,289
back, and the pumps will be on the way, you won't be able

653
00:38:10,289 --> 00:38:12,800
to see it anymore.

654
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:18,219
Like I was saying, on all this property, none of this was

655
00:38:18,219 --> 00:38:23,889
created by us, the property was renovated, new fascia was

656
00:38:23,889 --> 00:38:29,800
installed, new signs were installed on the canopy, which we

657
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,800
pulled permits for it too.

658
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,980
The only thing is when, I guess no excuses, we made a

659
00:38:35,980 --> 00:38:39,530
mistake on that one, when the gas of the monument sign, it

660
00:38:39,530 --> 00:38:42,949
was placed before we had the inspector come by and look at

661
00:38:42,949 --> 00:38:46,489
it, and make sure everything was there, but the sign was

662
00:38:46,489 --> 00:38:50,219
placed before the inspector came and looked at it, and that

663
00:38:50,219 --> 00:38:57,800
's when we got a failure on the inspection.

664
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,460
And then just public benefits, preserving, saving the

665
00:39:02,460 --> 00:39:07,800
circulation that was creating, without us, it was a hazard.

666
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:15,840
So we were just maintaining the sign location, modernizing

667
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:23,090
the property, not having an advertisement for the gas

668
00:39:23,090 --> 00:39:28,800
station, it really affects the business.

669
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,610
We respectfully request an approval for the variance that

670
00:39:33,610 --> 00:39:39,079
monument sign to remain 3.7 inches from the side property,

671
00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:44,800
lying in the required 10% back on the section 331.2.2.

672
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,800
If you have any questions, please let me know.

673
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,800
Thank you for your presentation sir.

674
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,800
Do any board members have any questions for our applicant?

675
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,800
Vice Chair?

676
00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:02,159
What would have you done if you had gotten the inspector

677
00:40:02,159 --> 00:40:04,800
before the sign?

678
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,039
Were you the one that put in the new sign or was the

679
00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:09,800
company that did the renovations the one that put it in?

680
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,800
Our company, our employees, they put it there.

681
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:13,800
You put it there.

682
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:14,800
Yes.

683
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,630
And what would have you done if you found out that you

684
00:40:17,630 --> 00:40:20,800
couldn't put a sign there, before you put the sign in?

685
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,699
Before we put the sign in, well we're going to, because

686
00:40:23,699 --> 00:40:27,210
this sign is our grandfather's hand, so you're only allowed

687
00:40:27,210 --> 00:40:30,800
to do refacing the sign, so that's what we would have done.

688
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,739
But the customer wanted a monument sign at the moment, and

689
00:40:34,739 --> 00:40:38,800
when we applied for the permit, we received the permit.

690
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,800
We didn't get the denial of the permit until after.

691
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,269
Okay. So you thought you had the permission and then you

692
00:40:45,269 --> 00:40:45,800
did it.

693
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:46,800
Yes.

694
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:47,800
Okay.

695
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:48,800
Member Rimsky.

696
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,369
Okay. If I understand from your presentation, what you

697
00:40:52,369 --> 00:40:58,130
measured, you measured from where the sign is located, the

698
00:40:58,130 --> 00:41:05,989
full sign or the present sign, to where the grass ended,

699
00:41:05,989 --> 00:41:11,000
adjacent to the parking area of what I believe is an

700
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,800
apartment complex, or that past year.

701
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:19,460
Did anybody give you an accurate site map that showed

702
00:41:19,460 --> 00:41:23,800
exactly where the property line was?

703
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:24,800
No, because you can see.

704
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,530
With them coming out and re-addressing it, where did they

705
00:41:27,530 --> 00:41:28,800
put the property line?

706
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,710
As you can see, I had this survey, which I had provided one

707
00:41:33,710 --> 00:41:38,739
day by the property, right, and then we used this thinking

708
00:41:38,739 --> 00:41:43,260
that the property line was there, but it obviously is

709
00:41:43,260 --> 00:41:48,190
different than what it is from the new original survey that

710
00:41:48,190 --> 00:41:49,800
we did after.

711
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,050
So you're saying you used it in an official survey or you

712
00:41:53,050 --> 00:41:54,800
had another survey done?

713
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,480
I had another survey done because this one is different

714
00:41:58,480 --> 00:41:59,800
than the survey.

715
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,800
They're a little bit different.

716
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,800
The old one and this one.

717
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,119
This one was created, I can't say the name of it, but it

718
00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:08,800
was created quite back.

719
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,599
But basically you did go to the effort to have what is an

720
00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:16,800
appropriate survey done by an approved survey company.

721
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,530
Yes, this company in case, it's an approved company and I

722
00:42:21,530 --> 00:42:25,800
think it's placed here in the industry with that.

723
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,800
But I think this survey was used to buy the property.

724
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:35,800
Okay, thank you.

725
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:43,800
Does the board have any other questions for Rob?

726
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,800
Thank you for coming up to present.

727
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,619
Now that the applicant and the city have presented their

728
00:42:50,619 --> 00:42:53,690
testimony, evidence, and arguments, is there anyone who

729
00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:55,800
wishes to speak regarding this variance?

730
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,710
If so, please come forward and state your name and mailing

731
00:43:00,710 --> 00:43:01,800
address.

732
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:07,800
You have four minutes to address the board.

733
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,800
Okay, seeing none.

734
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,159
After hearing all the testimony, evidence, arguments, and

735
00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:17,400
questions and answers, as well as hearing from all those

736
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,800
desiring to speak in support and opposition to the variance

737
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:20,800
,

738
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:28,199
I will entertain further questions from the board for any

739
00:43:28,199 --> 00:43:31,800
parties or the speakers.

740
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:38,340
If anyone has any further questions on the evidence now,

741
00:43:38,340 --> 00:43:41,800
this is the last time to ask.

742
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,800
Hearing none, I now close the public hearing.

743
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,090
The board will now deliberate and decide on the variance

744
00:43:48,090 --> 00:43:48,800
request.

745
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,389
Upon the completion of the board's deliberation, the board

746
00:43:51,389 --> 00:43:54,889
shall render an unbiased decision based on the record and

747
00:43:54,889 --> 00:43:57,800
supported by reasons and findings of fact.

748
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,679
In considering the variance, this board shall consider the

749
00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:03,789
facts and information in the agenda backup, including staff

750
00:44:03,789 --> 00:44:06,340
's written analysis of the variance, the applicant's

751
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:08,800
narrative, and testimony presented in the public hearing,

752
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,900
and the board's consideration and evaluation of the

753
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:15,429
requirements of the applicable standards from the Debt and

754
00:44:15,429 --> 00:44:16,800
Development Code.

755
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,889
The board may either grant the variance as presented or

756
00:44:20,889 --> 00:44:24,800
with conditions, or they can deny the variance.

757
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,650
In your deliberation, consider the basis for the request

758
00:44:29,650 --> 00:44:34,800
and staff analysis criteria for approval of the variance.

759
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,940
All right, so is there anyone who wishes to discuss the

760
00:44:38,940 --> 00:44:41,800
variance that was presented to us?

761
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,800
Ms. Wormski.

762
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,400
Based on what I have heard both from the city as well as

763
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,800
the person addressing it on behalf of the patient,

764
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,840
if that survey was performed as a means for the sale of the

765
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:03,130
property, and the survey says that the property extended to

766
00:45:03,130 --> 00:45:03,800
X point,

767
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:09,000
and they used that to determine what their setback and

768
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,949
approval rate was, only to find out that somebody else

769
00:45:13,949 --> 00:45:19,800
comes out and says, no, it's not there.

770
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:28,139
To me, one's caught in a legal circle thing on it, and it's

771
00:45:28,139 --> 00:45:38,949
no fault of the present owner, and therefore, in my estim

772
00:45:38,949 --> 00:45:39,800
ations,

773
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:45,800
I would like to suggest that the variance be approved.

774
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,800
Mr. Chair, did you have something you wanted to add?

775
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,829
It is, I definitely think there would be an unnecessary

776
00:45:52,829 --> 00:45:57,800
hardship if the variance was not allowed,

777
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:06,440
and it doesn't meet the purpose of what, yeah, just like

778
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,079
for the safety thing, and it's like for the information

779
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:10,800
available,

780
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,440
like in order to get that information out for a gas station

781
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,090
to his business, if it's not facing perpendicular to the

782
00:46:18,090 --> 00:46:18,800
street,

783
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,820
if it's parallel with the street, you can't really see it

784
00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:26,800
as well if it's perpendicular.

785
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,800
And I was basically going to say the same thing.

786
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,800
There was no other than improving the look of the property,

787
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,800
moving the sign from a pole sign to a monument sign.

788
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,639
It was a break-even deal. It makes the property look better

789
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:47,800
, and I'm not aware of the property that is adjacent to the

790
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:47,800
property

791
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,969
that we're talking about has had any complaint about this,

792
00:46:51,969 --> 00:46:55,360
you know, hey, they moved the pole sign and put a monument

793
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:56,800
sign there,

794
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,719
and I agree that I believe that the individual was trying

795
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,800
to do everything properly,

796
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,840
and if you're getting bad information, but you're making

797
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,800
legitimate decisions on the information now,

798
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,800
I don't believe the person ought to be penalized.

799
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,800
Did you want to add something?

800
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:24,949
I was going to, correct me if I get the language right, I

801
00:47:24,949 --> 00:47:30,800
motion that we allow the variance,

802
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,849
because it would be an unnecessary hardship to have it

803
00:47:34,849 --> 00:47:37,800
removed or to find a new place for it.

804
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,800
Is that the correct verbiage?

805
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,800
Okay.

806
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,800
Isn't this the exact verbiage that you need?

807
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,800
Yes.

808
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:59,679
I move that the variance be approved and adopt the test

809
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:02,800
report because the applicant has met the variance approval

810
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:02,800
criteria

811
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:08,000
listed in section 20.8.1(d)(1), and that is it would be

812
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,000
unnecessary hardship to have to find a new location for the

813
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:13,800
sign.

814
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:19,800
Would anyone like to second this?

815
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:21,800
I second this please.

816
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,800
Okay.

817
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,699
Now that we have a motion and a second, having received a

818
00:48:27,699 --> 00:48:30,949
motion and a second, is there any further discussion on

819
00:48:30,949 --> 00:48:32,800
this variance request?

820
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:34,800
Yes.

821
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:35,800
Okay.

822
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,139
There being no further discussion on the variance, please

823
00:48:38,139 --> 00:48:39,800
vote on the motion and show of hands.

824
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:46,159
All in favor of approving the variance, or to have the

825
00:48:46,159 --> 00:48:51,800
variance be approved and adopt the test report,

826
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,090
because the applicant has met the variance approval

827
00:48:55,090 --> 00:49:00,800
criteria listed in section 2.8.1(d)(1), that is it.

828
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:01,800
Okay.

829
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:02,800
Say aye.

830
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:03,800
Aye.

831
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,800
All opposed?

832
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,800
All opposed?

833
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:10,800
Okay.

834
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,800
So we have, aye or nay?

835
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:15,800
Nay.

836
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:16,800
Sorry, nay.

837
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:17,800
Okay.

838
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:18,800
Okay.

839
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:26,639
So the results are the five in favor of the variance and

840
00:49:26,639 --> 00:49:30,800
one against, so the motion fails.

841
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,800
So the motion fails.

842
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:38,800
The request variance has been denied then.

843
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:39,800
No.

844
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:40,800
It fails.

845
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,800
The variance has failed.

846
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,800
Okay, so we just go back to discussion then, right?

847
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:46,800
Okay.

848
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:47,800
Okay.

849
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:48,800
Let's see.

850
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,070
I guess since we do have an A on the board, remember,

851
00:49:51,070 --> 00:49:53,269
should anyone present their reasons as to why you're

852
00:49:53,269 --> 00:49:53,800
opposed to it?

853
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:54,800
Sure.

854
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:00,360
My understanding is that the survey was done after the sign

855
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:01,800
was installed.

856
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,969
Also, that was not done at the point of purchase of the

857
00:50:05,969 --> 00:50:09,460
property and then that information of where the property

858
00:50:09,460 --> 00:50:10,800
line would be.

859
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,239
I understand the mistake of measuring to the grasp, but the

860
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,800
property line is public information.

861
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,800
So I'm not sure that I find that to be.

862
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:25,190
And like the city presented, the fact that the property is

863
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:30,460
entirely paved is not a unique condition to this specific

864
00:50:30,460 --> 00:50:31,800
business.

865
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,199
I guess my understanding is they had a survey in which the

866
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:39,610
property was bought on, and that was not necessarily

867
00:50:39,610 --> 00:50:40,800
correct.

868
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,800
That was my interpretation of it.

869
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,800
Can we enlarge the survey as always?

870
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:48,800
No, go ahead, Mr. Raffenspiel.

871
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,530
Can we enlarge the survey as it is out there to see when

872
00:50:51,530 --> 00:50:52,800
exactly it was done?

873
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,800
I don't know.

874
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:55,800
No.

875
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:56,800
There's no reason?

876
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:57,800
Oh, no.

877
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,800
Yeah, the testimony period is out there.

878
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:00,800
Is that right?

879
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:01,800
Yeah.

880
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:02,800
We can't ask.

881
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:03,800
We can't investigate new evidence.

882
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:04,800
Yeah.

883
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:09,900
I have a question under the staff recommendation for

884
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:11,800
clarification.

885
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,800
Can I ask that?

886
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:14,800
It depends on what it is.

887
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:15,800
Okay.

888
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,579
It was the staff, they do not find all the criteria

889
00:51:19,579 --> 00:51:23,050
strictly met, therefore they do not recommend approval of

890
00:51:23,050 --> 00:51:23,800
the variance.

891
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,639
However, staff have no objection should the zoning board of

892
00:51:27,639 --> 00:51:31,019
adjustment find that the request meets the spirit and

893
00:51:31,019 --> 00:51:32,800
intent of the criteria.

894
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,800
That was not our motion.

895
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:35,800
No.

896
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:41,199
If we change our motion, if I present a new motion for vote

897
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:43,800
, is that an allowable?

898
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,800
So the motion has to be the way it was read before.

899
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,340
That's just a kind of way to get your head around how

900
00:51:50,340 --> 00:51:54,800
different people might view different facts differently.

901
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,679
So it's all part of the discussion that you guys are having

902
00:51:57,679 --> 00:51:59,800
as to what conclusion you would come to.

903
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,559
So that's kind of staff's report, what they recommend

904
00:52:02,559 --> 00:52:03,800
moving forward with.

905
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,250
But then as you guys review the evidence that was presented

906
00:52:07,250 --> 00:52:10,340
to you, it's up to you to either make a motion to approve

907
00:52:10,340 --> 00:52:10,800
or to--

908
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:11,800
Okay.

909
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,800
All right.

910
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:14,800
Thank you.

911
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:15,800
Do you have a question?

912
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:21,800
I guess question to board member.

913
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:22,800
Register.

914
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:23,800
Register.

915
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:31,699
Do you--is it the fact that--is it the holding on that is

916
00:52:31,699 --> 00:52:36,500
not unique, like you view it as not unique, as the reason

917
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:37,800
as the name?

918
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:39,800
That is a factor, yeah.

919
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,110
That's like according to my understanding, it has to be

920
00:52:43,110 --> 00:52:43,800
unique.

921
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,800
That's a hardship.

922
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:52,949
I mean, the reason why I view it as a hardship is because

923
00:52:52,949 --> 00:52:58,800
one, there is the--I mean, you can put it on the sign.

924
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,670
Like you can put it on the canopy, but it doesn't

925
00:53:02,670 --> 00:53:07,210
necessarily do the same--it's a less--it doesn't do the

926
00:53:07,210 --> 00:53:09,800
same role as it does there.

927
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:15,719
And there's also the canopy--the canopy that I saw on the

928
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,159
new one, I don't know what type of work you're going to

929
00:53:18,159 --> 00:53:19,800
have to do to make sure that it can hold the sign.

930
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:20,800
Sure.

931
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,690
And I view that as the unnecessary hardship, but you're

932
00:53:23,690 --> 00:53:26,460
going to have to get that inspected to make sure that it

933
00:53:26,460 --> 00:53:29,429
can be load-bearing, especially over--since it's over gas

934
00:53:29,429 --> 00:53:29,800
pumps.

935
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,940
Like either it is, then you put the sign up, but then you

936
00:53:32,940 --> 00:53:36,130
also have--if it isn't, you're either going to have to do

937
00:53:36,130 --> 00:53:38,800
the work to make that safe to do it or not.

938
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:46,190
And I guess that's--I view that as burdensome and

939
00:53:46,190 --> 00:53:48,800
unnecessary.

940
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,800
Do you wish to respond?

941
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:53,800
I hear what you're saying.

942
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,800
That's not what was presented.

943
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:00,539
I think that if this was being presented as a variance

944
00:54:00,539 --> 00:54:05,710
request for a sign that didn't exist, my opinion might be

945
00:54:05,710 --> 00:54:09,800
different, but the sign doesn't exist.

946
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:16,800
I do--I guess if I can call myself, I suppose.

947
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:21,539
I'm trying to think--I guess I do have a concern if the--I

948
00:54:21,539 --> 00:54:26,500
guess my thing is mainly the safety feature, but I believe

949
00:54:26,500 --> 00:54:31,670
--because if we had the move to sign my feedback, it would

950
00:54:31,670 --> 00:54:34,800
cause some traffic safety issues.

951
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,800
I am trying to think.

952
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,230
If--I suppose if we were to deny the variance, I imagine--

953
00:54:40,230 --> 00:54:43,800
well, no, that would be an evidence question, I think.

954
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:44,800
Yeah.

955
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:45,800
No, I can't ask that.

956
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,639
I was trying to think if there would be another place to

957
00:54:49,639 --> 00:54:50,800
put the sign.

958
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,800
All we have is our minds and the evidence presented.

959
00:54:52,800 --> 00:55:01,800
Right.

960
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,559
So if the board can't make a decision without additional

961
00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:09,480
evidence, we can go back up to the beginning and reopen the

962
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,800
public hearing and ask additional questions.

963
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:13,800
Okay.

964
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,239
Would the board be open to reopening the public hearing for

965
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:18,800
additional evidence?

966
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:19,800
Sure.

967
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:20,800
Okay.

968
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:31,800
So then we're going to go back.

969
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,800
I now reopen the public hearing.

970
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:40,800
All witnesses for this case have been previously sworn.

971
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,849
So it's just--do you want to call the city or the public

972
00:55:44,849 --> 00:55:45,800
hearing?

973
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,800
I guess we can call the city first.

974
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,010
Will the city please make a presentation of the request for

975
00:55:52,010 --> 00:55:54,800
variance analysis for Criterion of Approval?

976
00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:01,800
Or at least return to stand-experience?

977
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,800
I'm not going to be an assistant.

978
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:11,070
Before I ask my questions, does anybody have any questions

979
00:56:11,070 --> 00:56:13,800
for this member of the city?

980
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:14,800
Sure.

981
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:15,800
I'll ask.

982
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:23,280
So to your knowledge, would it be permitted for the price

983
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:30,309
or part of the sign to be installed on the canopy itself

984
00:56:30,309 --> 00:56:34,800
instead of the monument signs?

985
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:50,800
So currently there is--I'll forward my--I'm just saying,

986
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:50,800
sorry.

987
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:55,800
So currently there is a sign permitted on the canopy.

988
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:00,489
I'm going to--I said I would double-check real quick to see

989
00:57:00,489 --> 00:57:04,800
if there's another sign permitted on the canopy.

990
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:12,800
I just have to double-check that.

991
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:19,860
So there's a--it's considered a wall sign on the canopy, so

992
00:57:19,860 --> 00:57:26,800
it's a little different from the monument or wall sign.

993
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:46,800
So we'll come to that real quick.

994
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:51,800
So are there other questions?

995
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:58,019
I have a question. If instead of a monument sign, the

996
00:57:58,019 --> 00:58:00,610
current sign there was placed on a one-foot pole instead of

997
00:58:00,610 --> 00:58:12,800
on the ground, would it be a non-compliant legal sign?

998
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:28,800
I'll just do one second. I'm going to grab the tape real

999
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:28,800
quick.

1000
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,090
So it would still be a ground sign, so it would still have

1001
00:58:32,090 --> 00:58:32,800
to move.

1002
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,780
Well, at what point does it no longer be a pole sign and it

1003
00:58:36,780 --> 00:58:41,800
moves to a monument sign? Is there a certain elevation?

1004
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:47,500
So the elevation--so the height limit is the same whether

1005
00:58:47,500 --> 00:58:50,800
it's a monument or a pole sign.

1006
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:55,599
Well, what I'm saying is it was a legally nonconforming

1007
00:58:55,599 --> 00:58:56,800
pole sign.

1008
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,800
If instead of the sign being 10 feet or 12 feet in the air,

1009
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,369
they just cut the pole to where it was a foot above the

1010
00:59:04,369 --> 00:59:08,099
ground and made it a pole sign that was only a foot above

1011
00:59:08,099 --> 00:59:08,800
the ground,

1012
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:13,800
would that have been a legally nonconforming pole sign?

1013
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,010
Or does it have to be a certain elevation for it to be

1014
00:59:17,010 --> 00:59:24,800
considered a pole sign? You have to be a certain height.

1015
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:29,800
So the code doesn't distinguish--

1016
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:31,800
A specific height for the pole, correct?

1017
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:37,030
Yeah, the code doesn't distinguish specific height for the

1018
00:59:37,030 --> 00:59:37,800
pole.

1019
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:44,079
Yeah, I have a question. So it's my understanding that any

1020
00:59:44,079 --> 00:59:50,460
change to the signage, as in there was a nonconforming sign

1021
00:59:50,460 --> 00:59:51,800
, that was removed.

1022
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:57,800
At that point, any other sign going in must be conforming?

1023
00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:58,800
Correct.

1024
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,800
Okay, so by no longer having a pole sign, it doesn't matter

1025
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:08,800
. They wouldn't necessarily be able to put in a pole sign at

1026
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:14,800
this point unless it meets all requirements.

1027
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:15,800
Correct.

1028
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:21,880
Okay, so the monument sign, even though it was put in the

1029
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:28,190
same place, which is what it's showing us on the photos, it

1030
01:00:28,190 --> 01:00:31,800
doesn't meet the conformity.

1031
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,800
Correct, yes. It's considered a new sign.

1032
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:40,000
It's a new sign. So that's actually what the issue is. They

1033
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:44,599
need to request the variance that they did not meet that

1034
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:49,699
new requirement, or the requirement of a new development,

1035
01:00:49,699 --> 01:00:50,800
new sign.

1036
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:51,800
Correct.

1037
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,800
Okay.

1038
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:54,800
Maroski?

1039
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:59,519
So therefore, a variance is required whether you put it up

1040
01:00:59,519 --> 01:01:03,800
as a pole sign or whether you have it as a monument.

1041
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:09,780
And even if it was a pole sign, with the pole going in the

1042
01:01:09,780 --> 01:01:16,019
exact same concrete or whatever sleeve that the pole goes

1043
01:01:16,019 --> 01:01:16,800
in.

1044
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:17,969
So as whether, so if it's a new sign, whether it's a pole

1045
01:01:17,969 --> 01:01:21,670
or monument sign, anything you can create up, I guess the

1046
01:01:21,670 --> 01:01:29,239
only way for them to have maintained legal nonconforming on

1047
01:01:29,239 --> 01:01:34,800
the previous sign is if they change just the face.

1048
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,880
The pole itself would have to stay, you know, just have to,

1049
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:40,800
only the face can change.

1050
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,519
I understand that, but what I'm stating is you put a new

1051
01:01:45,519 --> 01:01:50,969
sign in that's on a pole, and everything about the sign is

1052
01:01:50,969 --> 01:01:54,800
consistent with the previous sign.

1053
01:01:54,800 --> 01:02:03,030
It's height, it's size of the sign face, etc. All of that

1054
01:02:03,030 --> 01:02:08,119
is identical to them. It would still require the variance

1055
01:02:08,119 --> 01:02:09,800
is what we're hearing.

1056
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:10,800
Am I correct?

1057
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:17,800
Correct. Yes, correct.

1058
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:35,599
So I downloaded what was listed as the criteria for the

1059
01:02:35,599 --> 01:02:40,800
documentation.

1060
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:46,070
I was inquiring if it was possible to make that date

1061
01:02:46,070 --> 01:02:52,230
visible of the survey a little bit more legible by quote, "

1062
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:57,800
just enlarging that," you know, zooming it in.

1063
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:03,250
And I'm having a bit of difficulty with the reply being

1064
01:03:03,250 --> 01:03:09,429
that that's a new piece of information, trying to determine

1065
01:03:09,429 --> 01:03:14,800
and being able to read what is put up on the screen.

1066
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,409
Well, we can ask questions about it now. We reopened the

1067
01:03:17,409 --> 01:03:19,800
public hearing, so you can ask any questions you want.

1068
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:24,809
I'm at, you know, for that. But anyway, in doing it online,

1069
01:03:24,809 --> 01:03:29,019
which I don't know that it would be acceptable for me to

1070
01:03:29,019 --> 01:03:38,280
read off, it shows that the date of the survey is on the 4/

1071
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,800
26.

1072
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:45,699
Okay, this is one by Metroplex Survey. The one that's up

1073
01:03:45,699 --> 01:03:54,789
there is by KMZ. Is there any way to find out? Because if I

1074
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:59,800
understand...

1075
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:06,179
I guess... Remember, register's objection was that the

1076
01:04:06,179 --> 01:04:11,309
survey was done after the sign was in place. So one of

1077
01:04:11,309 --> 01:04:14,800
these could have been done after the sign was in place.

1078
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,820
But what does the survey that was required at the sale of

1079
01:04:17,820 --> 01:04:22,409
the property? Is that KMZ's? And where does it show is the

1080
01:04:22,409 --> 01:04:25,800
end of the property? That's what I'm trying to get to.

1081
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:31,800
And I think that's what we are all trying to get to.

1082
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,559
I guess that would be a question for the applicant. Would

1083
01:04:35,559 --> 01:04:42,880
the applicant find coming to the board to vote anything as

1084
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:44,800
a question?

1085
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:48,800
Same question?

1086
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:54,519
Okay. We've got two surveys. The one that's there, I guess,

1087
01:04:54,519 --> 01:04:56,800
is your presentation.

1088
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:57,800
Yeah.

1089
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:00,800
Okay, you had it done by KMZ.

1090
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,269
No, no. This survey was done before we even started this.

1091
01:05:04,269 --> 01:05:06,800
All the survey was provided by the owner.

1092
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,260
Okay, so then that's the survey at point of sale. Because

1093
01:05:10,260 --> 01:05:13,260
when you go to sell something, you have to have a survey

1094
01:05:13,260 --> 01:05:13,800
done.

1095
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:14,800
Right.

1096
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,989
Is there any means, and that's a technical means for with

1097
01:05:18,989 --> 01:05:25,800
us here, that we can have that portion that lists the date

1098
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:27,800
of when the survey was done.

1099
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:35,340
And if that survey was indeed done at point of sale, it's

1100
01:05:35,340 --> 01:05:41,800
definitely ahead of what any monument sign was put in.

1101
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:47,349
And if that survey shows that the property line goes all

1102
01:05:47,349 --> 01:05:53,099
the way over to the concrete of the apartment complex or

1103
01:05:53,099 --> 01:05:55,800
whatever is next to it,

1104
01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:04,059
then, and if that shows that it's, quote, that 10 feet that

1105
01:06:04,059 --> 01:06:11,420
, as you said in your presentation, it was in, this whole

1106
01:06:11,420 --> 01:06:15,800
exercise should lead to accepting the variance.

1107
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:20,630
Because really, if you go to the right end, a variance wasn

1108
01:06:20,630 --> 01:06:23,800
't needed. Somebody's measured something wrong.

1109
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:26,800
And that's what the determination is.

1110
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,480
Member Rimsky, I do apologize, but may I ask what your

1111
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:32,800
question was to the applicant?

1112
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:39,949
My question is to the applicant is determining what was the

1113
01:06:39,949 --> 01:06:42,800
date of that survey.

1114
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:46,349
Is it possible to get that survey outside just like a

1115
01:06:46,349 --> 01:06:50,239
better resolution of that survey so we can see details on

1116
01:06:50,239 --> 01:06:50,800
it?

1117
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:51,800
Yeah.

1118
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:52,800
Can I answer that?

1119
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:56,260
I have the survey on my phone somewhere. I have to just

1120
01:06:56,260 --> 01:06:56,800
look for it.

1121
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:57,800
Okay.

1122
01:06:57,800 --> 01:06:58,800
You know, just really have to look at it.

1123
01:06:58,800 --> 01:06:59,800
Okay.

1124
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:00,800
Okay.

1125
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:01,800
Last one.

1126
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:14,800
[ Inaudible ]

1127
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:20,800
So the date on the survey is July 2, 2020.

1128
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:26,070
July 2, 2020 was when the property was sold or prior to

1129
01:07:26,070 --> 01:07:26,800
sell.

1130
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,880
Prior, I don't know, whoever the owner is the one providing

1131
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:32,800
the survey prior to this.

1132
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,130
I believe this is the survey that was done with the

1133
01:07:35,130 --> 01:07:35,800
property.

1134
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:36,800
Okay.

1135
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:39,800
Okay.

1136
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:43,800
So when you say that you measured, you were talking about,

1137
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,800
you weren't using the survey to determine where to measure.

1138
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:47,800
Yes. Yeah.

1139
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:52,409
As you can tell in the survey, you don't see, you know, the

1140
01:07:52,409 --> 01:07:54,800
other property is not adjacent to it on the service.

1141
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:58,800
So it's pretty hard to tell where exactly to measure.

1142
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:00,980
So when we measure, when we have a rough people measure, we

1143
01:08:00,980 --> 01:08:04,050
measure from the street, from the edge of the street into

1144
01:08:04,050 --> 01:08:07,800
the grass area and so the other side was the next property.

1145
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:10,800
There's actually, it drops down and there's a little creek

1146
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:11,800
that helps down.

1147
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:12,800
Yeah.

1148
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:13,800
So we measure all that.

1149
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:15,800
Sure.

1150
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:20,060
So that survey that you had, that made you believe that the

1151
01:08:20,060 --> 01:08:22,800
property line was to the concrete?

1152
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:23,800
Yes.

1153
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,800
Okay.

1154
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,670
Is it possible to see, I mean, technically it is sort of

1155
01:08:31,670 --> 01:08:35,680
evidence in, is it, would it be okay for us to look at that

1156
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,800
, a better resolution of that survey?

1157
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:42,800
So he's a sworn, he's providing sworn testimony.

1158
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:45,670
So his sworn testimony is that the survey is dated July 2nd

1159
01:08:45,670 --> 01:08:46,800
, 2020.

1160
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:47,800
Okay.

1161
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,800
It's more of the lines of the survey.

1162
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:55,800
And I don't know if we have the ability to do that.

1163
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:56,800
Yeah.

1164
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:57,800
That's what I guess.

1165
01:08:57,800 --> 01:08:58,800
But it's more of a process question.

1166
01:08:58,800 --> 01:08:59,800
Yeah.

1167
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:04,159
Like would it be possible to get a better resolution

1168
01:09:04,159 --> 01:09:09,050
screenshot or photo of that survey to look at the evidence

1169
01:09:09,050 --> 01:09:10,800
or is it too late?

1170
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,800
Do you, does that help?

1171
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,800
We do record it.

1172
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:18,800
I see.

1173
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:23,800
All right.

1174
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:24,800
Okay.

1175
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:26,800
Okay.

1176
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,640
Is the question just on verifying the date of the survey or

1177
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:32,800
is that what the question is?

1178
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:36,960
Well, would it be possible for the presenter to physically

1179
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:41,119
maintain control of his phone and show the date, the survey

1180
01:09:41,119 --> 01:09:43,800
date on the phone to each one of us?

1181
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:45,800
I think we would pass the date issue.

1182
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:46,800
Oh, we are?

1183
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:47,800
Yeah.

1184
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:54,670
Because I think board member registers concern, would it,

1185
01:09:54,670 --> 01:09:58,800
if the survey showed that, like that the property was --

1186
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:00,800
If the survey was wrong, sure.

1187
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:02,800
Okay, that's what I was trying to get at.

1188
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:03,800
That would be --

1189
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:04,800
If the survey was --

1190
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:06,800
That's one issue.

1191
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:07,800
Yeah, sure.

1192
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:09,800
But would that be enough to change your vote?

1193
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:11,800
I don't think that it's unique still.

1194
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:12,800
No.

1195
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:13,800
Okay.

1196
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,800
So that's not going to be loaded or --

1197
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:16,800
All right.

1198
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:17,800
This one's a shot.

1199
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:18,800
Okay.

1200
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:23,800
Do you want to load the survey?

1201
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:25,800
Do you want to load the survey?

1202
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:26,800
I mean, if it's --

1203
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,710
If there's no discrepancy between the surveys, then it

1204
01:10:29,710 --> 01:10:30,800
doesn't matter.

1205
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:40,800
I mean, I guess for me, if it shows the -- I don't know.

1206
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:44,550
I did, because there was a -- because there was this survey

1207
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:44,800
.

1208
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,229
Was this -- just to clarify, was this the second survey

1209
01:10:47,229 --> 01:10:48,800
done or the first survey done?

1210
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:50,479
This is the survey, the first survey we provided to the

1211
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:50,800
city.

1212
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:51,800
Okay.

1213
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:55,319
Do you have -- or does the city have it or does the -- for

1214
01:10:55,319 --> 01:10:56,800
the second survey?

1215
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:57,800
It's in the presentation.

1216
01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:59,800
Yeah, that was in the presentation.

1217
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:00,800
Okay.

1218
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,800
I think it's in your presentation.

1219
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:04,800
Yeah, it was there.

1220
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:05,800
Okay.

1221
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:08,800
Do you want to see the first survey?

1222
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:09,800
Yes.

1223
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:12,800
If we could -- I'm just trying to figure out the first one.

1224
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:17,800
[ Inaudible ]

1225
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:21,170
While they're doing that, you had a question about wall

1226
01:11:21,170 --> 01:11:21,800
signs?

1227
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:22,800
Oh, yeah.

1228
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,800
A wall sign could be potentially added to the canopy.

1229
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:29,359
It depends on height, because there could be setbacks

1230
01:11:29,359 --> 01:11:30,800
regarding the variation.

1231
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:34,479
So it really depends on height and whether they have the

1232
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:35,800
ability to do so.

1233
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:36,800
Okay.

1234
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:40,869
And I guess how many wall signs are they allowed to have on

1235
01:11:40,869 --> 01:11:41,800
a canopy?

1236
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:43,800
We don't limit the number of wall signs.

1237
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:44,800
Okay.

1238
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:49,029
Again, it's related to relevant setbacks to adjacent

1239
01:11:49,029 --> 01:11:50,800
residential uses.

1240
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:55,489
But -- so I understand that the canopy is more than 10 feet

1241
01:11:55,489 --> 01:11:55,800
.

1242
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,479
So if the wall signs were on, even the far side of the

1243
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:00,800
canopy, it would be acceptable.

1244
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:01,800
Illumination.

1245
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,800
Well, the setbacks are related to ground signs.

1246
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:07,800
Wall signs are treated a little differently.

1247
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:08,800
Okay.

1248
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:10,800
When I looked at the survey --

1249
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:11,800
This is the first survey?

1250
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:12,800
Okay.

1251
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:13,800
Okay.

1252
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:15,800
What would the sign be on this survey?

1253
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:16,800
Right with the X marks?

1254
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:17,800
X marks.

1255
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,060
Which, when you're looking at the survey, the bold black is

1256
01:12:21,060 --> 01:12:22,800
the property black.

1257
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:23,800
Okay.

1258
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:24,800
That's why --

1259
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:26,800
It was in this reading of the --

1260
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:27,800
Okay.

1261
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:29,899
Yeah, when staff reviewed the permit, their comment was, "

1262
01:12:29,899 --> 01:12:31,800
It appears the sign would be located off site.

1263
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:33,800
You need to provide updated location information."

1264
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:34,800
Okay.

1265
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,300
Because the X is outside the boundaries of the property

1266
01:12:36,300 --> 01:12:36,800
lines on this.

1267
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:41,380
So the new survey has to put it within property, but

1268
01:12:41,380 --> 01:12:43,800
outside of conformity.

1269
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:44,800
Okay.

1270
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:45,800
Yeah.

1271
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:46,800
Okay.

1272
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:47,800
Okay.

1273
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:52,800
Do we have the date for the second survey that was done?

1274
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:57,800
Actually, I haven't gotten that.

1275
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:07,800
That shows us April 4th of April 20th.

1276
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:08,800
Okay.

1277
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:09,800
What's the list?

1278
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:17,800
April 2nd and April -- yeah.

1279
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:24,649
So the second survey was done April -- oh, I just had it --

1280
01:13:24,649 --> 01:13:27,800
20th of this year.

1281
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:28,800
Okay.

1282
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:29,800
On the 6th.

1283
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:30,800
Okay.

1284
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:31,800
And then --

1285
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:32,800
What was that?

1286
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:33,800
Yeah.

1287
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:34,800
And then --

1288
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:35,800
Is it April --

1289
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:36,800
Yeah.

1290
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:37,800
Okay.

1291
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:38,800
Okay.

1292
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:39,800
Great.

1293
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,380
Since what would be the alternative would be the ground

1294
01:13:42,380 --> 01:13:46,800
signs on the canopy, I guess -- I

1295
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:52,300
mean, if -- like, even if like this -- like, because would

1296
01:13:52,300 --> 01:13:55,800
there be any -- because the rules

1297
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:59,869
are different, could they put -- could they put wall signs

1298
01:13:59,869 --> 01:14:01,800
on the -- either on any part

1299
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:02,800
of the canopy or --

1300
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:05,800
I'll say that the code allows -- would allow a wall sign.

1301
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:06,800
We haven't reviewed it.

1302
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,800
We don't know if it meets any other regulations.

1303
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,800
So I would hate to say it could be a wall sign.

1304
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:13,800
Okay.

1305
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:14,800
So indeterminate.

1306
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:15,800
Okay.

1307
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:21,819
If we were to -- if by the statement of looking toward a

1308
01:14:21,819 --> 01:14:25,800
wall sign, any wall sign is going

1309
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:31,520
to have the -- arise that is going to be consistent with

1310
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:35,800
the lower height of the canopy as a minimum.

1311
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:39,800
The sign will be there above there.

1312
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:48,100
Realistically, as a driver going by who wants to buy gifts,

1313
01:14:48,100 --> 01:14:52,800
in order to see that sign, it's

1314
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:57,090
going to be the, quote, 20 feet or so back because that's

1315
01:14:57,090 --> 01:14:57,800
where --

1316
01:14:57,800 --> 01:14:58,800
Okay.

1317
01:14:58,800 --> 01:14:59,800
Oh.

1318
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:00,800
-- the thing is.

1319
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:07,430
Plus it's going to be up as to a point that it's not really

1320
01:15:07,430 --> 01:15:09,800
within the site.

1321
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:10,800
Member Rimsky.

1322
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,189
I do apologize for interrupting, but do you have any

1323
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:14,800
further questions for either our applicant

1324
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:16,800
or for the city?

1325
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:21,729
I can't stop, but what I was trying to do was address the

1326
01:15:21,729 --> 01:15:24,800
discussion with Council Member

1327
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:25,800
Wakefield.

1328
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:27,800
So my apologies for this.

1329
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:30,800
No worries, Member Rimsky.

1330
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:34,119
Does anyone else on this board have any other questions for

1331
01:15:34,119 --> 01:15:35,800
either our -- for either the

1332
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:40,800
city or for our applicant?

1333
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:43,800
Hearing none, I will go ahead and close the public hearing.

1334
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:49,649
Thank you both for your -- thank you both for coming up

1335
01:15:49,649 --> 01:15:50,800
again.

1336
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,250
The board will deliberate again on the side on the variance

1337
01:15:53,250 --> 01:15:53,800
request.

1338
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:56,300
Upon the completion of the board's deliberation, the board

1339
01:15:56,300 --> 01:15:57,800
shall render an unbiased decision

1340
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:01,250
based on the record and supported by reason and findings of

1341
01:16:01,250 --> 01:16:01,800
fact.

1342
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,470
In considering the variance, this board shall consider the

1343
01:16:04,470 --> 01:16:05,800
facts and information in the

1344
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,149
agenda backup, including staff strength analysis, the

1345
01:16:08,149 --> 01:16:09,800
variance, the applicant's narrative and

1346
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:13,050
testimony presented in the public hearing, and the board's

1347
01:16:13,050 --> 01:16:14,800
consideration and evaluation

1348
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:17,590
of the requirements of the applicable standards from the D

1349
01:16:17,590 --> 01:16:18,800
IN Development Code.

1350
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:21,619
The board may either grant the variance as presented or

1351
01:16:21,619 --> 01:16:23,800
with conditions or deny the variance.

1352
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,930
In deliberation, consider the basis of the request and

1353
01:16:26,930 --> 01:16:28,800
staff analysis for the criteria

1354
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:33,800
of the board's rule of variance.

1355
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,800
Member Rimsky, did you want to continue?

1356
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:37,800
She has a question.

1357
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:38,800
Yes, go ahead.

1358
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:46,979
Okay, I was just kind of thinking out loud, my apologies

1359
01:16:46,979 --> 01:16:48,800
for that.

1360
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:52,800
Okay, we're looking at this variance.

1361
01:16:52,800 --> 01:17:01,279
The end result, number one, we provide the variance, all is

1362
01:17:01,279 --> 01:17:03,800
well and good in that aspect.

1363
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:08,800
Number two, we don't agree with the variance.

1364
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:17,800
There does not appear in my risk/benefit options analysis

1365
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:20,800
to be any option.

1366
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:24,850
Therefore, if there's no other option for the sign's

1367
01:17:24,850 --> 01:17:27,800
location, they don't have a sign.

1368
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:33,960
By not having a sign, are we therefore impacting the

1369
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:39,800
ability of the business to function as a business?

1370
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:46,180
And that, in my understanding, is not what government is

1371
01:17:46,180 --> 01:17:50,800
supposed to do, or this whole thing is supposed to do.

1372
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:54,939
If they can't provide us a business, they close up shop,

1373
01:17:54,939 --> 01:17:57,800
and anybody else would then go to the QT,

1374
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:03,109
which is down the street from it, if I'm understanding

1375
01:18:03,109 --> 01:18:04,800
things right.

1376
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:08,800
Vice Chair Wayfield, did you want to comment on it?

1377
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:15,800
I guess, just more of a general comment.

1378
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:23,800
It is, I guess, I view this as in, not necessarily as staff

1379
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,800
said, staff does not have an objection of this.

1380
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:35,500
There is no negative to proposing the variance, and I do

1381
01:18:35,500 --> 01:18:38,800
view it as unique enough,

1382
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:43,489
as in most of the gas stations I see around here are not

1383
01:18:43,489 --> 01:18:45,800
fully paved like that.

1384
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:49,439
I would say, if you look at, on North Texas, there's

1385
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:51,800
multiple that are fully paved.

1386
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:55,800
On Blaine Gray, there are several that are fully paved.

1387
01:18:55,800 --> 01:19:05,520
And then, I guess, it is, we have, since we couldn't get

1388
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:10,800
that information from staff,

1389
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:18,029
we have no, they are either going to be having to either

1390
01:19:18,029 --> 01:19:22,180
pay for more signage to get the same benefit that they

1391
01:19:22,180 --> 01:19:23,800
currently have with it right now,

1392
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:27,970
or they will get no benefit from it due to, or they'll have

1393
01:19:27,970 --> 01:19:30,800
to come back for another variance.

1394
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:36,800
And, we know this process takes time and is inexpensive,

1395
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:40,829
so if they have to come back for either another variance

1396
01:19:40,829 --> 01:19:48,800
for a sign, either for the canopy, yeah.

1397
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:53,800
I have a question.

1398
01:19:53,800 --> 01:20:01,659
Our, sitting on the ZVA, we are either to uphold the

1399
01:20:01,659 --> 01:20:03,800
requirements,

1400
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:08,119
and as Member-Register has pointed out, it didn't mean all

1401
01:20:08,119 --> 01:20:08,800
four.

1402
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:14,319
We, as a board, are allowed to, okay, we can say it's

1403
01:20:14,319 --> 01:20:19,239
meeting the spirit of it within the language that

1404
01:20:19,239 --> 01:20:22,800
Commissioner Wakefield proposed,

1405
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:26,800
but at the end of the day, we need to come to a vote.

1406
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:31,800
And continuing conversation about the economic well-being,

1407
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:37,319
the expenses, everything else, that's not actually our pur

1408
01:20:37,319 --> 01:20:37,800
view.

1409
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:45,710
We need to vote on the variance, yes or no, and, oh, I'm

1410
01:20:45,710 --> 01:20:46,800
sorry.

1411
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:48,800
That's completely understandable.

1412
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,800
I'll have Vice Chair Wakefield speak.

1413
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:57,050
I guess this is, because like we can also do, like

1414
01:20:57,050 --> 01:21:00,149
conditions, I don't know if there's any conditions that you

1415
01:21:00,149 --> 01:21:00,800
want to do,

1416
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:04,090
but is there any, would there be any conditions that you

1417
01:21:04,090 --> 01:21:07,800
would be interested in applying that would swing your vote?

1418
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:09,800
Or is this?

1419
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:13,579
Well, no, because you have to approve with these conditions

1420
01:21:13,579 --> 01:21:15,800
, but it would ultimately approve the, okay.

1421
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:20,800
So it's just, it's just no, and nothing can sway it.

1422
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:34,050
Okay. Member, I guess before we take the vote, Member Omsk

1423
01:21:34,050 --> 01:21:37,010
is, did you have anything else that you wanted to add or

1424
01:21:37,010 --> 01:21:38,800
comment on that?

1425
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:42,800
Well, I guess the way I'm phrasing the economic thing is

1426
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:47,800
they're not, as to one of the criteria,

1427
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:53,409
the statement about economic hardships being involved on it

1428
01:21:53,409 --> 01:21:53,800
.

1429
01:21:53,800 --> 01:22:01,800
And I can understand if I may, Councilman, excuse me.

1430
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:02,800
It's okay.

1431
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:10,539
Remember, Registrar's replies about there are several other

1432
01:22:10,539 --> 01:22:17,800
gas stations that aren't, you know, fall in the same soup,

1433
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:22,800
because it has the concrete all the way around.

1434
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:29,000
But there also used to be, and it's not listed here, the

1435
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:32,800
thing about ex post facto laws.

1436
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:51,800
And, you know, to me the intent of, I'll just, never mind.

1437
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:58,149
So, okay, we have, we do have, I suppose, three options

1438
01:22:58,149 --> 01:22:59,800
presented.

1439
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:04,800
We can either approve the variance, like as presented.

1440
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:09,720
We can either deny the variance that was presented for us,

1441
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:15,800
or we could postpone and listen.

1442
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:16,800
I'm sorry?

1443
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:19,800
Like what more information do you need?

1444
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:23,609
Okay, I guess with more information that's needed for the

1445
01:23:23,609 --> 01:23:24,800
next meeting.

1446
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:30,800
Yeah, because if, I think what we do need the information

1447
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:33,800
is what type of signage they can put on their property,

1448
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:39,460
where they can, with that information, sway you one way or

1449
01:23:39,460 --> 01:23:40,800
the other.

1450
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:42,800
If not, then they're, you know, what I'm doing.

1451
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:46,149
Well, if you told me that they could put a sign on their

1452
01:23:46,149 --> 01:23:48,800
canopy, I would say no, but the sign doesn't.

1453
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:51,800
But if they could?

1454
01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:53,800
I'm not sure that that would, I'm not sure.

1455
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:55,800
Okay.

1456
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:58,680
Because I don't think it would be fair to staff or the

1457
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:02,109
applicant or any of us on this board if we postpone to

1458
01:24:02,109 --> 01:24:04,800
gather information.

1459
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:09,819
Like, if, like, if it is, because there's no guarantees in

1460
01:24:09,819 --> 01:24:12,800
the case, they'd have to go through it.

1461
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:16,800
If that, even if they couldn't put a sign on their canopy,

1462
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:18,800
it would change your book,

1463
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:21,930
then I don't think there's a point in gathering that

1464
01:24:21,930 --> 01:24:24,670
information if you're not absolutely certain that it would

1465
01:24:24,670 --> 01:24:28,800
change your book from the uniqueness requirement.

1466
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:34,449
But would it, would the fact that they couldn't put it on

1467
01:24:34,449 --> 01:24:38,800
their canopy be a unique feature to you?

1468
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:41,159
Again, if, maybe if it were presented, if that were an

1469
01:24:41,159 --> 01:24:42,800
issue that we were talking about.

1470
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:43,800
Okay.

1471
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:45,800
Okay.

1472
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:47,800
Then I don't think we should postpone it.

1473
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:48,800
Okay.

1474
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:49,800
I don't think we should postpone it.

1475
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:51,800
There'd be no point to it.

1476
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:53,800
Okay.

1477
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:56,800
All right.

1478
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:58,800
Yes.

1479
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:08,800
I'm just going to dig out of the box.

1480
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:15,859
Is it possible to have, that they could have a variance for

1481
01:25:15,859 --> 01:25:21,359
a monument sign based on if one could conform to the set

1482
01:25:21,359 --> 01:25:27,800
back if it's at the opposite side of the property?

1483
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:33,800
Right now we have it, and it looks very nice there.

1484
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:38,130
I believe that would be asking for more evidence, which we

1485
01:25:38,130 --> 01:25:41,800
've already closed the public meeting again.

1486
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:47,439
I also don't think, because right now it is member

1487
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:53,369
registers vote that is holding us up to where, that we

1488
01:25:53,369 --> 01:25:55,800
cannot pass this variance.

1489
01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:59,489
And I do not think that would change the uniqueness

1490
01:25:59,489 --> 01:26:00,800
requirement.

1491
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:06,100
That it, member Rinsky, that it's, I've been trying to find

1492
01:26:06,100 --> 01:26:11,159
ways to prove uniqueness to, and it has not satisfied, and

1493
01:26:11,159 --> 01:26:13,800
I, we are at an impasse.

1494
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:15,800
I feel like I can vote against this.

1495
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:20,970
And I could, we, I don't know if we're allowed to do this

1496
01:26:20,970 --> 01:26:26,409
postpone until we get another board member, so I, because

1497
01:26:26,409 --> 01:26:31,289
either we have to vote to fail, to deny this, or we need to

1498
01:26:31,289 --> 01:26:32,800
grant it.

1499
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:37,039
And they, the vote to deny is far easier to get than the

1500
01:26:37,039 --> 01:26:40,800
vote to, the vote for varying, to grant it.

1501
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:47,899
I, I believe then if we can't, if we, I guess if gathering

1502
01:26:47,899 --> 01:26:54,390
more evidence won't change any votes or minds, I suppose

1503
01:26:54,390 --> 01:26:57,810
that the only way forward is to vote to deny the variance

1504
01:26:57,810 --> 01:26:59,800
as presented by the council.

1505
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:02,800
I mean, we can still postpone.

1506
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:07,600
I mean, like the only two ways of things changing is if, I

1507
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:11,899
mean the only way it changes now is if we get a seventh

1508
01:27:11,899 --> 01:27:17,420
board member, either an alternative or permanent one, and

1509
01:27:17,420 --> 01:27:22,800
they decide to vote for this.

1510
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:26,220
But of course I do have one thing is like, well one, there

1511
01:27:26,220 --> 01:27:29,710
's no guarantee that we would get a, a board member, and we

1512
01:27:29,710 --> 01:27:32,800
also can't guarantee what, how, but we can.

1513
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:38,800
Yeah, exactly. That's.

1514
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:41,800
I mean, I guess.

1515
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:43,800
Chairman, I'd like to call the vote.

1516
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:45,800
Okay.

1517
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:48,800
All right.

1518
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:52,050
I move that the variance be denied as presented by staff

1519
01:27:52,050 --> 01:27:55,380
because the applicant has not met the variance approval

1520
01:27:55,380 --> 01:28:00,800
criteria listed in section 2.8.1(d)(1) specifically.

1521
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:03,800
Is there a motion?

1522
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:05,800
Is this the motion that I need to make at the top?

1523
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:07,800
Yes.

1524
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:08,800
That's basically what you just said.

1525
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:09,800
Sure.

1526
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:13,729
Okay, yeah, I, I would take a motion that the applicant has

1527
01:28:13,729 --> 01:28:17,800
not met the requirements for the variance, that we deny.

1528
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:18,800
Okay.

1529
01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:22,800
Is there a second?

1530
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:25,800
I'll make a second.

1531
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:29,960
All in favor of denying the variance, raise your hand and

1532
01:28:29,960 --> 01:28:30,800
say aye.

1533
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:31,800
Aye.

1534
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:33,800
Aye.

1535
01:28:33,800 --> 01:28:35,800
All opposed, raise your hand.

1536
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:37,800
Aye.

1537
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:38,800
Okay.

1538
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:44,800
The motion, all right, so the, it is four in favor.

1539
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:47,800
Or three in favor.

1540
01:28:47,800 --> 01:28:48,800
Oh, okay.

1541
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:49,800
Four against.

1542
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:53,800
So the, one, two, three.

1543
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:57,800
There's only six, so it's three and three.

1544
01:28:57,800 --> 01:28:58,800
Wait, so why is that?

1545
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:01,109
So it's, we might have to postpone this until we get to

1546
01:29:01,109 --> 01:29:02,800
break the tie one way or the other.

1547
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:03,800
Okay.

1548
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:08,439
All right, so since the variation, since, I had better, I

1549
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:10,800
mean, deny the variation.

1550
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:18,300
Okay, and I would like to then, let's go ahead and postpone

1551
01:29:18,300 --> 01:29:18,800
.

1552
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:19,800
Tell.

1553
01:29:19,800 --> 01:29:20,800
Entertain a motion.

1554
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:21,800
Entertain a motion, postpone.

1555
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:24,800
Till we get another board member.

1556
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:26,800
Well, we don't want to be that specific.

1557
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:28,800
Till we get that tie breaker.

1558
01:29:28,800 --> 01:29:31,800
I mean, I guess what would the phrasing be on this?

1559
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:34,819
We could do fair and day certain, fair and tell and event

1560
01:29:34,819 --> 01:29:35,800
certain, so.

1561
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:39,800
Yeah, so tell.

1562
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:41,800
Tell and event certain.

1563
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:50,800
Yeah, the event is like, tell, I guess, we have to have,

1564
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:54,800
like, the only reason why we

1565
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:56,800
come back is we have a one way to decide.

1566
01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:00,079
Either one of us has to decide to deny just to get out of

1567
01:30:00,079 --> 01:30:01,800
the way, or we have to wait

1568
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:05,119
until we get another board member so they can decide, break

1569
01:30:05,119 --> 01:30:05,800
the tie.

1570
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:08,750
And that would have to be the event, that we have seven

1571
01:30:08,750 --> 01:30:09,800
board members.

1572
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:11,800
Or seven votes.

1573
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:13,800
That's the motion.

1574
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:14,800
Okay.

1575
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:15,800
Okay.

1576
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:20,050
I would like to entertain a motion to postpone until we

1577
01:30:20,050 --> 01:30:22,800
have a seventh member on board.

1578
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:23,800
Sure.

1579
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:24,800
Okay.

1580
01:30:24,800 --> 01:30:25,800
Any motions?

1581
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:26,800
Second.

1582
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:28,909
All in favor of postponing until we have a seventh member,

1583
01:30:28,909 --> 01:30:29,800
you can say, "Hi."

1584
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:30,800
Hi.

1585
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:31,800
All opposed?

1586
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:32,800
Okay.

1587
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:33,800
The ayes have it.

1588
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:38,800
Six, zero, the, let's see.

1589
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:40,800
Oh, we don't want to step forward.

1590
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:41,800
Okay.

1591
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:45,510
So, given that we could not reach a decision today, this

1592
01:30:45,510 --> 01:30:47,800
variance will be postponed until

1593
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:50,800
another member is added onto a board.

1594
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:51,800
Okay.

1595
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:52,800
Okay.

1596
01:30:52,800 --> 01:31:06,130
So, now moving on to item number 3B is AA26-0003, hold a

1597
01:31:06,130 --> 01:31:08,800
public hearing and consider an appeal

1598
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,529
and administrative decision regarding the existence of non-

1599
01:31:11,529 --> 01:31:12,800
conforming rights with the

1600
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:15,800
building addressed at 910 North Mineral Road.

1601
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:18,750
The building is one of four structures located on

1602
01:31:18,750 --> 01:31:21,800
approximately 3.5 acre property located

1603
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:25,489
on the east side of North Mineral Road, approximately 735

1604
01:31:25,489 --> 01:31:27,800
feet north of Russell Newman Boulevard

1605
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:33,800
in the city of Denton, Texas, Dent County, Texas.

1606
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:37,939
The matter before the board is whether to affirm, reverse,

1607
01:31:37,939 --> 01:31:39,800
and hold or impart or amend

1608
01:31:39,800 --> 01:31:46,800
or modify a decision made by the administrative official.

1609
01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:47,800
Okay.

1610
01:31:47,800 --> 01:31:50,510
The decision of the administrative official is that non-con

1611
01:31:50,510 --> 01:31:51,800
forming rights to continue

1612
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:56,800
a variety of industrial and storage uses do not exist.

1613
01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:00,029
A vote of at least six members of the board is required to

1614
01:32:00,029 --> 01:32:01,800
reverse the administrative

1615
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:02,800
decision.

1616
01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:05,800
Okay, we've already been.

1617
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:06,800
Yeah.

1618
01:32:06,800 --> 01:32:13,800
This is a, I think you can start with I now.

1619
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:14,800
I now open the hearing.

1620
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:18,800
All witnesses for this case have been previously sworn.

1621
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:21,710
Will the city please present its testimony, evidence, and

1622
01:32:21,710 --> 01:32:23,800
arguments to support the administrative

1623
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:24,800
decision?

1624
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:25,800
Yes.

1625
01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:30,800
I believe there was a little break.

1626
01:32:30,800 --> 01:32:31,800
It's okay.

1627
01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:34,800
Pause for a break if you'd like.

1628
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:38,800
Oh, I think with a five minute break, satisfy everyone.

1629
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:40,800
It would be lovely, thank you.

1630
01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:41,800
Okay.

1631
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:45,800
I think we do have a break.

1632
01:32:45,800 --> 01:32:49,800
Yeah, I think I have five minutes.

1633
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:51,800
Thank you so much.

1634
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:52,800
Thank you.

1635
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:54,800
The sun's gone down.

1636
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:58,800
Okay.

1637
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:02,010
We have returned from recess and have returned to our

1638
01:33:02,010 --> 01:33:02,800
meeting.

1639
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:06,010
Yeah, really quickly, since I know a lot of you all are new

1640
01:33:06,010 --> 01:33:07,800
to city boards and preliminary

1641
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:10,960
procedure and everything, since we've continued that one

1642
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:12,800
item, please don't talk about it,

1643
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:16,010
you know, with each other separately outside of the open

1644
01:33:16,010 --> 01:33:16,800
meetings.

1645
01:33:16,800 --> 01:33:20,020
Any discussion on that will be come back at your next

1646
01:33:20,020 --> 01:33:20,800
meeting.

1647
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:23,800
Thank you for the clarification.

1648
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:24,800
Okay.

1649
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:28,800
Now, we'll go ahead reopen the meeting.

1650
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:30,800
All witnesses for the case have been previously sworn.

1651
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:33,100
Will the city please present its testimony, evidence, and

1652
01:33:33,100 --> 01:33:34,800
arguments to support the administrative

1653
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:36,800
audit officials decision?

1654
01:33:36,800 --> 01:33:39,670
Good evening, Chair, members of the board, Kim Izygurski,

1655
01:33:39,670 --> 01:33:40,800
Planning Director.

1656
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:43,060
The case before you tonight is an appeal of an

1657
01:33:43,060 --> 01:33:44,800
administrative determination regarding

1658
01:33:44,800 --> 01:33:47,800
non-conforming rights.

1659
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:51,500
So a quick overview of the request before you and how it

1660
01:33:51,500 --> 01:33:52,800
came to be here.

1661
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:55,800
The property owner submitted a zoning verification letter,

1662
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:57,800
specifically a request for a determination

1663
01:33:57,800 --> 01:33:59,800
of non-conforming rights back in May.

1664
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:02,380
They submitted a letter and evidence to the city that was

1665
01:34:02,380 --> 01:34:03,800
included in your backup that

1666
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:06,500
asserted that they had a variety of non-conforming uses

1667
01:34:06,500 --> 01:34:07,800
that had been occurring on the subject

1668
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:10,560
of property and that they believed they had rights for

1669
01:34:10,560 --> 01:34:13,800
those non-conforming uses to continue.

1670
01:34:13,800 --> 01:34:16,140
And the uses that they described were a variety of

1671
01:34:16,140 --> 01:34:18,800
contractor and storage-related uses.

1672
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:22,210
Those translated into the uses listed in the DDC would

1673
01:34:22,210 --> 01:34:23,800
include outdoor storage, warehouse,

1674
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:26,949
and wholesale facility, low-impact manufacturing, and

1675
01:34:26,949 --> 01:34:27,800
administrative, professional, and

1676
01:34:27,800 --> 01:34:30,800
government office uses.

1677
01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:33,529
Based on the evidence that they provided and the additional

1678
01:34:33,529 --> 01:34:34,800
research that staff did, which

1679
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:36,659
I will walk you through in this presentation, the director

1680
01:34:36,659 --> 01:34:37,800
determined that non-conforming

1681
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:41,029
rights did not exist for the subject building due to there

1682
01:34:41,029 --> 01:34:42,800
being no records that we could

1683
01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:46,569
find that any of those uses had legally been established

1684
01:34:46,569 --> 01:34:48,800
since at least 2021.

1685
01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:51,180
The owner therefore had the right to either use the

1686
01:34:51,180 --> 01:34:52,800
property in accordance with the existing

1687
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:57,109
rural residential zoning or to apply for a zoning change to

1688
01:34:57,109 --> 01:34:59,800
apply to change it to a district

1689
01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:02,800
that would permit the desired mix of uses.

1690
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:06,279
The owner has now filed an appeal with that termination so

1691
01:35:06,279 --> 01:35:07,800
that it is before you all to

1692
01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:11,079
either affirm, reverse, or modify that determination this

1693
01:35:11,079 --> 01:35:11,800
evening.

1694
01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:13,800
Just a look at the subject property.

1695
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:16,800
It's outlined in black on the two maps on your screen.

1696
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:19,539
There are four buildings on the subject property with four

1697
01:35:19,539 --> 01:35:20,800
different addresses.

1698
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:24,300
The original zoning verification letter request as well as

1699
01:35:24,300 --> 01:35:25,800
the staff determination and this

1700
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:28,800
appeal are specific to the building circled in yellow.

1701
01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:31,800
This address is 910 North May Hill.

1702
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:33,800
Just some additional history for you all.

1703
01:35:33,800 --> 01:35:36,800
This property was annexed into the city in 2013.

1704
01:35:36,800 --> 01:35:39,800
The buildings on site do predate annexation.

1705
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:43,020
At the time of annexation, in accordance with the code at

1706
01:35:43,020 --> 01:35:44,800
that time, it was assigned the

1707
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:48,439
placeholder designation of rural residential or RD5X as it

1708
01:35:48,439 --> 01:35:50,800
was called in the 2002 code.

1709
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:55,409
Since that time in 2019, the city updated our development

1710
01:35:55,409 --> 01:35:56,800
code and that transitioned

1711
01:35:56,800 --> 01:35:59,800
to a rural residential or RR zoning.

1712
01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:04,109
That district under both codes was primarily intended to

1713
01:36:04,109 --> 01:36:05,800
permit agricultural and low density

1714
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:11,800
residential uses and requires a five-acre minimum lot size.

1715
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:14,739
So just walking you through some of the aerial imagery and

1716
01:36:14,739 --> 01:36:16,800
some of the history and research

1717
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:19,800
that staff did and the applicant provided, you can see here

1718
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:22,800
images from 2009, 2010, and

1719
01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:23,800
2013.

1720
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:25,800
These all predate that annexation.

1721
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:29,609
As you can see, the subject building did or was constructed

1722
01:36:29,609 --> 01:36:30,800
sometime between February

1723
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:32,800
of 2009 and February of 2010.

1724
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:37,420
The first record of utility services that the city has for

1725
01:36:37,420 --> 01:36:39,800
this was in 2011.

1726
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:42,710
It does appear, as you can see in the 2013 imagery, that

1727
01:36:42,710 --> 01:36:43,800
there was some sort of outdoor

1728
01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:46,800
storage activity occurring on site at that time.

1729
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:49,329
However, we could find no records that would help us

1730
01:36:49,329 --> 01:36:50,800
specify what that use was.

1731
01:36:50,800 --> 01:36:53,310
An outdoor storage could be accessory to almost any non-

1732
01:36:53,310 --> 01:36:54,800
residential use of the code.

1733
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:56,920
So that did not lead us to any conclusions to help us

1734
01:36:56,920 --> 01:36:58,800
determine what the use would have been.

1735
01:37:00,800 --> 01:37:01,800
Host annexation.

1736
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:05,800
You can see here images from 2015, 2017, and 2019.

1737
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:10,800
Again, you can see a variety of outdoor storage activities.

1738
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:13,640
Some vehicles parked on site, but we had no evidence during

1739
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:14,800
that time period again to

1740
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:17,199
establish what specific use may have been occurring in that

1741
01:37:17,199 --> 01:37:17,800
building.

1742
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:20,739
We did again look through those utility records that the

1743
01:37:20,739 --> 01:37:21,800
city has on file.

1744
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:24,069
We found that the utility account name change occurred in

1745
01:37:24,069 --> 01:37:26,800
2018, but service was continued.

1746
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:29,930
And then you can see in 2019 that it does look like some

1747
01:37:29,930 --> 01:37:31,800
sort of cleanup began to occur

1748
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:33,869
on the site, and there was a decrease in the amount of

1749
01:37:33,869 --> 01:37:34,800
outdoor storage.

1750
01:37:36,800 --> 01:37:39,800
Looking at the more recent imagery, 2021 through 2025,

1751
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:41,800
again you can see changes occur

1752
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:44,140
on site. The outdoor storage component does appear to have

1753
01:37:44,140 --> 01:37:45,800
been removed at some point

1754
01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:46,800
during that time.

1755
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:50,800
There is intermittent vehicle activity on site, but again

1756
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:51,800
parking alone, we can't determine

1757
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:54,449
what the use might be for that because vehicles could be

1758
01:37:54,449 --> 01:37:55,800
present for this building or any

1759
01:37:55,800 --> 01:37:56,800
of the other buildings on site.

1760
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:59,449
And again, we couldn't determine a specific use based on

1761
01:37:59,449 --> 01:38:00,800
that information alone.

1762
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:04,140
Utility accounts during this time period, there was again a

1763
01:38:04,140 --> 01:38:05,800
name change in 2020, and

1764
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:08,460
then the accounts for this building were terminated in

1765
01:38:08,460 --> 01:38:10,800
April of 2021, and there's been no utilities

1766
01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:13,800
to the site since that time that the staff had determined.

1767
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:17,840
So again, over this time period, we found no records that

1768
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:19,800
enabled us to say with any

1769
01:38:19,800 --> 01:38:23,109
certainty what use or user may have been on that site, or

1770
01:38:23,109 --> 01:38:24,800
that any use has occurred since

1771
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:26,800
utilities ended in 2021.

1772
01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:33,029
So looking at the determination of nonconforming rights, it

1773
01:38:33,029 --> 01:38:34,800
is incumbent upon the owner of

1774
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:37,979
the property to establish and provide the evidence to prove

1775
01:38:37,979 --> 01:38:38,800
that they have nonconforming

1776
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:42,800
rights through that zoning verification letter process.

1777
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:45,930
So specifically what they provided and what was passed

1778
01:38:45,930 --> 01:38:47,800
along to you all was a lease from

1779
01:38:47,800 --> 01:38:50,710
2020 for a company named Esparza Custom Cabinets for two of

1780
01:38:50,710 --> 01:38:52,800
the other buildings on site, address

1781
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:55,909
is 870, which is also sometimes called 920 in certain

1782
01:38:55,909 --> 01:38:57,800
records, and 890 North Mayhill

1783
01:38:57,800 --> 01:38:58,800
Road.

1784
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:00,800
That lease did not include the subject building at 910.

1785
01:39:01,800 --> 01:39:04,130
They provided the listing showing that the property has

1786
01:39:04,130 --> 01:39:05,800
been listed for lease from March

1787
01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:07,800
of '24 through November of '26.

1788
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:11,739
They provided imagery through Google Street View that was

1789
01:39:11,739 --> 01:39:12,800
passed to you all.

1790
01:39:12,800 --> 01:39:14,520
Again, there was no visible signage or anything on the

1791
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:15,800
building that helped staff use that

1792
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:18,420
Street View imagery as opposed to aerials to say what use

1793
01:39:18,420 --> 01:39:19,800
may have occurred there.

1794
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:23,310
And then they did provide tax records and ownership proving

1795
01:39:23,310 --> 01:39:24,800
when they purchased the

1796
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:25,800
property in 2021.

1797
01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:29,529
Their letter of intent did specify that a company named Es

1798
01:39:29,529 --> 01:39:31,800
parza Custom Millwork relocated

1799
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:35,140
from the building address is 890 to the subject building in

1800
01:39:35,140 --> 01:39:36,800
2023 and stayed there through

1801
01:39:36,800 --> 01:39:38,800
January of 2026.

1802
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:40,800
However, there were no lease documents or anything else to

1803
01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:41,800
help substantiate that.

1804
01:39:43,800 --> 01:39:47,159
So staff, even though not required by code, does try to

1805
01:39:47,159 --> 01:39:47,800
help people out.

1806
01:39:47,800 --> 01:39:50,640
So we did additional research through our own records with

1807
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:52,800
what we had available through

1808
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:53,800
public records.

1809
01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:56,380
Stitton County provided us with, again, a construction

1810
01:39:56,380 --> 01:39:57,800
timeline for those buildings

1811
01:39:57,800 --> 01:39:58,800
and the history of sales.

1812
01:39:58,800 --> 01:40:00,729
We looked at the imagery that I've walked you through all

1813
01:40:00,729 --> 01:40:01,800
this evening that showed it

1814
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:03,800
was constructed prior to annexation.

1815
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:06,800
There were outdoor storage and vehicular activity on site.

1816
01:40:06,800 --> 01:40:09,460
But again, that alone was not enough for us to determine

1817
01:40:09,460 --> 01:40:10,800
what use may have occurred prior

1818
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:11,800
to annexation.

1819
01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:14,800
Again, we looked at the city utility records.

1820
01:40:14,800 --> 01:40:17,239
We found three accounts for the subject building between

1821
01:40:17,239 --> 01:40:20,800
2011 and 2021, but no utilities have

1822
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:22,800
been active to the building since 2021.

1823
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:25,539
And then we also searched through the city's certificate of

1824
01:40:25,539 --> 01:40:27,800
occupancy and permitting records.

1825
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:31,050
We found no CO applications for any use within the subject

1826
01:40:31,050 --> 01:40:32,800
building in the 13 years that

1827
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:33,800
it's been in the city.

1828
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:37,449
And we found only one CO for the entire property, and that

1829
01:40:37,449 --> 01:40:38,800
was for the building addressed as

1830
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:39,800
936.

1831
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:47,510
So nonconforming rights can only exist if a use was legally

1832
01:40:47,510 --> 01:40:49,800
established.

1833
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:51,800
That's the basis that staff was operating from.

1834
01:40:52,800 --> 01:40:56,300
We know only the name of one business that has reported to

1835
01:40:56,300 --> 01:40:58,800
have been operational in this

1836
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:01,289
building, that was in the owner's zoning verification

1837
01:41:01,289 --> 01:41:02,800
letter application, as well as

1838
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:04,800
reiterated in their appeal information.

1839
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:07,050
And that's not as far as a custom cabinet or custom mill

1840
01:41:07,050 --> 01:41:07,800
work company.

1841
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:10,470
But we again have no records provided by the applicant to

1842
01:41:10,470 --> 01:41:12,800
show us that there was ever a

1843
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:14,779
lease of the building or any proof that they operated there

1844
01:41:14,779 --> 01:41:15,800
during that time period.

1845
01:41:16,800 --> 01:41:19,550
The cabinet manufacturing business was determined to have

1846
01:41:19,550 --> 01:41:21,800
never been legally established in

1847
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:24,109
the building because they had no utility services in the

1848
01:41:24,109 --> 01:41:24,800
time period.

1849
01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:26,800
They were said to be operational.

1850
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:29,560
So even if that building was only utilized for storage, the

1851
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:31,800
city's adopted building codes

1852
01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:34,090
would require that it have utilities to it for plumbing and

1853
01:41:34,090 --> 01:41:34,800
ventilation.

1854
01:41:34,800 --> 01:41:37,250
So it had an electrical water service and those sorts of

1855
01:41:37,250 --> 01:41:37,800
things.

1856
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:41,000
And we again have no records that utilities were active to

1857
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:41,800
the building during the three

1858
01:41:41,800 --> 01:41:43,800
years it was said to be there.

1859
01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:46,800
Furthermore, there was no CO application ever made.

1860
01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:49,270
So there was no application for the city to review or we

1861
01:41:49,270 --> 01:41:50,800
would have flagged at that time

1862
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:52,800
that you have to have utilities in order to get a CO.

1863
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:55,420
So those were the premises that we used to determine it was

1864
01:41:55,420 --> 01:41:57,800
never a legally established business.

1865
01:41:57,800 --> 01:42:00,470
Therefore, we determined no nonconforming rights could

1866
01:42:00,470 --> 01:42:01,800
exist because there was not a

1867
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:03,800
lawful establishment of the use.

1868
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:06,449
That again leads to either the building could be used in

1869
01:42:06,449 --> 01:42:07,800
accordance with RR zoning or the

1870
01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:10,100
owner could apply for a zoning change to a district that

1871
01:42:10,100 --> 01:42:11,800
would allow the variety of uses

1872
01:42:11,800 --> 01:42:13,800
they intend to do.

1873
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:17,359
Going back to the state laws that were cited in the appeal

1874
01:42:17,359 --> 01:42:19,800
application and that relate to

1875
01:42:19,800 --> 01:42:23,470
nonconformities, local government code section 43 again

1876
01:42:23,470 --> 01:42:24,800
would have obligated the city to

1877
01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:28,010
allow anything legally established prior to annexation to

1878
01:42:28,010 --> 01:42:30,800
continue following annexation.

1879
01:42:30,800 --> 01:42:33,340
As I presented to you this evening, we had a variety of

1880
01:42:33,340 --> 01:42:34,800
aerial imagery available to us

1881
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:37,390
from this time, but we found no evidence through that

1882
01:42:37,390 --> 01:42:38,800
imagery to tell us what use might have

1883
01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:40,800
occurred within the building.

1884
01:42:40,800 --> 01:42:43,449
The appellant did not provide us with or assert a chain of

1885
01:42:43,449 --> 01:42:44,800
uses that were said to have occurred

1886
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:48,399
between annexation and 2023 when the first listed use that

1887
01:42:48,399 --> 01:42:49,800
they named as far as their

1888
01:42:49,800 --> 01:42:52,149
custom cabinets was reported to have began using the

1889
01:42:52,149 --> 01:42:52,800
building.

1890
01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:55,640
So therefore, staff had no way to reasonably conclude what

1891
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:56,800
use, if any, the city might have

1892
01:42:56,800 --> 01:43:01,800
been obligated to allow continued since annexation.

1893
01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:04,840
Section 211 of the local government code requires that the

1894
01:43:04,840 --> 01:43:06,800
city allow a person to continue using

1895
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:09,569
their property in a manner that's nonconforming following a

1896
01:43:09,569 --> 01:43:10,800
zoning or code change.

1897
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:14,170
It establishes assertion that that does not apply in this

1898
01:43:14,170 --> 01:43:15,800
case because there was not illegally

1899
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:16,800
established use.

1900
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:19,430
If we had records of illegally established use, then we

1901
01:43:19,430 --> 01:43:21,800
would be looking to what was spoken

1902
01:43:21,800 --> 01:43:23,800
to in your work section was their intent to abandon.

1903
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:26,390
We recognize that the owner says in their affidavit that

1904
01:43:26,390 --> 01:43:27,800
they had no intent to abandon

1905
01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:31,880
the use, but again, we've determined there was no lawfully

1906
01:43:31,880 --> 01:43:33,800
established use to have had

1907
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:37,800
nonconforming rights, so that would not apply.

1908
01:43:37,800 --> 01:43:40,390
The decision criteria before you all this evening are to

1909
01:43:40,390 --> 01:43:41,800
look at the general criteria

1910
01:43:41,800 --> 01:43:44,489
and the development code for all applications, the facts

1911
01:43:44,489 --> 01:43:45,800
stated in the application presented

1912
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:49,250
by the Director of the Appellate, and requirements of all

1913
01:43:49,250 --> 01:43:51,800
applicable standards of the DDC.

1914
01:43:51,800 --> 01:43:54,800
So I'll walk you through all of those briefly.

1915
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:58,800
The DDC has 13 general criteria for all applications.

1916
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:01,800
Most of those are site design specific, so they're not germ

1917
01:44:01,800 --> 01:44:02,800
ane to this request related

1918
01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:04,890
to nonconforming rights in the existing building because

1919
01:44:04,890 --> 01:44:06,800
there's no site changes or anything

1920
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:08,800
else being discussed this evening.

1921
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:11,439
For the criteria that are applicable, they relate to the

1922
01:44:11,439 --> 01:44:12,800
comprehensive plan and the development

1923
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:14,800
code being followed.

1924
01:44:14,800 --> 01:44:17,430
Staff found that the determination that was made respects

1925
01:44:17,430 --> 01:44:18,800
the purpose and intent of the

1926
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:22,420
city having nonconforming regulations and the intent of the

1927
01:44:22,420 --> 01:44:23,800
RR zoning to serve as a

1928
01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:27,189
placeholder for those properties that are annexed into the

1929
01:44:27,189 --> 01:44:28,800
city until such time as the

1930
01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:31,800
owner comes forward with the zoning request.

1931
01:44:31,800 --> 01:44:35,520
The appellate's request to permit the variety of uses that

1932
01:44:35,520 --> 01:44:36,800
were named in their application

1933
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:39,319
would not be consistent with the city's adopted codes and

1934
01:44:39,319 --> 01:44:41,800
limitations for nonconforming uses.

1935
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:44,500
The code specifies that the use within a building that's

1936
01:44:44,500 --> 01:44:45,800
nonconforming cannot be spread to

1937
01:44:45,800 --> 01:44:49,300
other buildings on site so they couldn't just change uses

1938
01:44:49,300 --> 01:44:50,800
between buildings.

1939
01:44:50,800 --> 01:44:53,520
And furthermore, you're only allowed to change a noncon

1940
01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:54,800
forming use if it's going to something

1941
01:44:54,800 --> 01:44:57,539
that is less, determined to be less intensive and have less

1942
01:44:57,539 --> 01:44:59,800
impact on the neighboring properties.

1943
01:44:59,800 --> 01:45:02,329
So having just the ability to change freely between the

1944
01:45:02,329 --> 01:45:03,800
mixture of uses they proposed

1945
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:05,800
would not be in alignment with those.

1946
01:45:05,800 --> 01:45:08,989
The proper procedure in this case would be for them to

1947
01:45:08,989 --> 01:45:10,800
apply for a zoning change to a

1948
01:45:10,800 --> 01:45:13,949
district that permits the mixture of uses they would like

1949
01:45:13,949 --> 01:45:15,800
to have occur on the property.

1950
01:45:15,800 --> 01:45:18,739
The second criteria is the board's consideration of the

1951
01:45:18,739 --> 01:45:20,800
facts stated in the application as presented.

1952
01:45:20,800 --> 01:45:23,640
In this case, the documentation was all provided to you

1953
01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:25,800
from the applicant's original zoning

1954
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:29,649
verification letter, staff's determination, as well as

1955
01:45:29,649 --> 01:45:30,800
their appeal.

1956
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:33,680
Staff found in that the appellant did not demonstrate the

1957
01:45:33,680 --> 01:45:35,800
legal establishment of any

1958
01:45:35,800 --> 01:45:38,229
of the desired uses within this building throughout the

1959
01:45:38,229 --> 01:45:39,800
history as we've looked at tonight.

1960
01:45:39,800 --> 01:45:42,699
And then again, staff did that further research and also

1961
01:45:42,699 --> 01:45:44,800
found that there was no evidence

1962
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:47,619
of a legally established use, again, because there have

1963
01:45:47,619 --> 01:45:48,800
been no COs applied for for the

1964
01:45:48,800 --> 01:45:49,800
building.

1965
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:52,699
Furthermore, no utility since 2021 to the building means

1966
01:45:52,699 --> 01:45:53,800
they could not have had a CO

1967
01:45:53,800 --> 01:45:55,720
during that time period anyway because you have to have

1968
01:45:55,720 --> 01:45:57,800
ventilation and plumbing to a building.

1969
01:45:57,800 --> 01:46:01,619
And then the third criteria are the requirements and intent

1970
01:46:01,619 --> 01:46:03,800
of the applicable standards from

1971
01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:06,800
the DDC compared to the written decision being appealed.

1972
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:09,520
In this case, the DDC standards related to non-conformities

1973
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:10,800
are consistent with state law.

1974
01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:14,039
They exist for the purpose of limiting the continued

1975
01:46:14,039 --> 01:46:15,800
existence of and financial investment

1976
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:18,369
into non-conformities to preserve the integrity of the city

1977
01:46:18,369 --> 01:46:19,800
's adopted plans and ordinances

1978
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:22,380
and allow the city to grow and develop over time as

1979
01:46:22,380 --> 01:46:23,800
councils envisioned.

1980
01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:26,800
Staff determined that no legal non-conformity exists.

1981
01:46:26,800 --> 01:46:29,439
Therefore, it is consistent with the intent of the DDC to

1982
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:30,800
not allow them to establish

1983
01:46:30,800 --> 01:46:32,800
new uses along the property.

1984
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:36,369
Allowing the variety of uses, as they've requested again,

1985
01:46:36,369 --> 01:46:38,800
would have the effect of changing the

1986
01:46:38,800 --> 01:46:40,689
zoning of the property without following the legal due

1987
01:46:40,689 --> 01:46:42,800
process of the public hearing required

1988
01:46:42,800 --> 01:46:43,800
for zoning change.

1989
01:46:43,800 --> 01:46:46,329
So it would be consistent with the intent of the DDC for

1990
01:46:46,329 --> 01:46:47,800
the owner to therefore apply

1991
01:46:47,800 --> 01:46:50,359
for that zoning change and go through that public hearing

1992
01:46:50,359 --> 01:46:51,800
process to get to a district

1993
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:54,800
that would permit the mix of uses they desire.

1994
01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:57,279
The options before you this evening were outlined in your

1995
01:46:57,279 --> 01:46:57,800
backup.

1996
01:46:57,800 --> 01:46:59,949
I do have them here on the screen so that you all can

1997
01:46:59,949 --> 01:47:01,800
reverse them in your deliberations.

1998
01:47:01,800 --> 01:47:05,970
I won't read them aloud, but in short, you can affirm the

1999
01:47:05,970 --> 01:47:07,800
decision or the director's

2000
01:47:07,800 --> 01:47:10,300
determination that there are no non-conforming rights for

2001
01:47:10,300 --> 01:47:11,800
the variety of uses that passed.

2002
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:14,359
You can reverse the director's determination whole or in

2003
01:47:14,359 --> 01:47:14,800
part.

2004
01:47:14,800 --> 01:47:17,619
If you choose that option, staff would request that you

2005
01:47:17,619 --> 01:47:19,800
would at least specify which use

2006
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:22,800
you find to have non-conforming rights on the property

2007
01:47:22,800 --> 01:47:23,800
because again, we cannot allow

2008
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:26,270
them to change between uses that have varying degrees of

2009
01:47:26,270 --> 01:47:26,800
impact.

2010
01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:29,800
We need to focus that on one use.

2011
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:31,729
And then you also have the option to amend or modify the

2012
01:47:31,729 --> 01:47:35,800
determination or attached conditions.

2013
01:47:35,800 --> 01:47:39,100
So this was outlined in your backup, but just to further

2014
01:47:39,100 --> 01:47:40,800
provide guidance to you all as to

2015
01:47:40,800 --> 01:47:43,460
what staff is requesting, our initial request would be

2016
01:47:43,460 --> 01:47:45,800
affirming the director's decision.

2017
01:47:45,800 --> 01:47:48,300
That's option one on the list of options that you have

2018
01:47:48,300 --> 01:47:48,800
there.

2019
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:51,390
In this case, the owner would still have the ability to use

2020
01:47:51,390 --> 01:47:52,800
their property in accordance

2021
01:47:52,800 --> 01:47:54,800
with RR or again, apply for a zoning change.

2022
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:57,949
That would be proper procedure to give themselves the

2023
01:47:57,949 --> 01:48:00,800
rights to do the mixture of uses they desire.

2024
01:48:00,800 --> 01:48:03,729
If you do disagree with staff and find that there are non-

2025
01:48:03,729 --> 01:48:06,800
conforming rights for a use

2026
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:09,529
of this building, then staff again would request that you

2027
01:48:09,529 --> 01:48:11,800
specify which use has the legal non-conforming

2028
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:15,350
right to continue because we cannot just allow the free for

2029
01:48:15,350 --> 01:48:16,800
all switching between uses that

2030
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:20,800
they listed in their zoning verification application.

2031
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:23,130
Third, I would point to you all that the appellant

2032
01:48:23,130 --> 01:48:25,800
requested, if you do find that there are

2033
01:48:25,800 --> 01:48:27,840
non-conforming rights, they requested that delay of

2034
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:29,800
discontinuance be made because they

2035
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:32,359
did provide proof that they marketed the property for six

2036
01:48:32,359 --> 01:48:33,800
months within the last year.

2037
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:36,300
So if you choose to go that route, then that's also an

2038
01:48:36,300 --> 01:48:37,800
option before you is to grant them

2039
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:40,800
that one year delay as they've requested.

2040
01:48:40,800 --> 01:48:43,800
And at this time, I will pause and answer any questions.

2041
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:45,800
Thank you for presenting.

2042
01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:50,800
Do any board members have any questions for this witness?

2043
01:48:50,800 --> 01:48:54,800
So it's just this one building on this property that were

2044
01:48:54,800 --> 01:48:54,800
...

2045
01:48:54,800 --> 01:48:58,060
Correct. Because non-conforming uses are not allowed to be

2046
01:48:58,060 --> 01:49:00,800
transferred between buildings essentially,

2047
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:04,159
and they only requested that zoning verification letter

2048
01:49:04,159 --> 01:49:05,800
specific to the building at 910.

2049
01:49:05,800 --> 01:49:06,800
That is the only...

2050
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:09,359
Okay, so this is how it came to the city's attention is

2051
01:49:09,359 --> 01:49:12,800
they had to ask for a zoning verification letter.

2052
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:16,529
Correct. They initially, I believe, called our front

2053
01:49:16,529 --> 01:49:18,800
counter asking about establishing

2054
01:49:18,800 --> 01:49:20,800
an industrial type use on the property.

2055
01:49:20,800 --> 01:49:23,800
They were told it looks like this is not conforming.

2056
01:49:23,800 --> 01:49:27,260
You need to go through this process to determine if you

2057
01:49:27,260 --> 01:49:29,800
have non-conforming rights or not.

2058
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:34,800
And for both the current zoning and the previous zoning,

2059
01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:38,800
none of the uses were allowed,

2060
01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:41,800
but it was annexed in 2013.

2061
01:49:41,800 --> 01:49:44,949
Correct. So had there been proof at that time of what use

2062
01:49:44,949 --> 01:49:45,800
was occurring,

2063
01:49:45,800 --> 01:49:48,350
then at that time we would have been obligated to allow

2064
01:49:48,350 --> 01:49:50,800
that use to continue even if it was not approved.

2065
01:49:50,800 --> 01:49:51,800
Okay.

2066
01:49:51,800 --> 01:49:53,800
But we have the history to know what that was.

2067
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:54,800
Okay.

2068
01:49:54,800 --> 01:49:55,800
Okay, and the next?

2069
01:49:55,800 --> 01:50:00,699
And then if I understand when it was annexed, you use as a

2070
01:50:00,699 --> 01:50:04,800
placeholder what you now consider RR.

2071
01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:09,460
And a requirement for something to be an RR has to have

2072
01:50:09,460 --> 01:50:10,800
five acres.

2073
01:50:10,800 --> 01:50:16,800
And if I heard correctly and have read in the presentation,

2074
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:21,939
we have four buildings that are a piece of property that's

2075
01:50:21,939 --> 01:50:25,800
like 3.2 or they're about acres.

2076
01:50:25,800 --> 01:50:32,180
So how can RR, other than being used as a placeholder until

2077
01:50:32,180 --> 01:50:34,800
somebody figures out what else it's going to do,

2078
01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:42,500
how can that be utilized as the zoning specification for

2079
01:50:42,500 --> 01:50:49,800
that specific building if no variance is allowed?

2080
01:50:49,800 --> 01:50:52,449
Sure. So at the time of annexation, again, they're allowed

2081
01:50:52,449 --> 01:50:53,800
to continue with what they were doing

2082
01:50:53,800 --> 01:50:55,800
if they were doing something legal at that time.

2083
01:50:55,800 --> 01:51:01,550
Otherwise, the code since 2002 has assigned the RR as a

2084
01:51:01,550 --> 01:51:02,800
placeholder

2085
01:51:02,800 --> 01:51:05,739
solely because when something's annexed, it has to have a

2086
01:51:05,739 --> 01:51:06,800
zoning district.

2087
01:51:06,800 --> 01:51:08,880
There's no analysis done at that time to determine what

2088
01:51:08,880 --> 01:51:09,800
zoning is appropriate

2089
01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:12,340
because zoning has to follow the dual public care and

2090
01:51:12,340 --> 01:51:12,800
process.

2091
01:51:12,800 --> 01:51:14,979
So that's incumbent upon an owner after annexation to

2092
01:51:14,979 --> 01:51:17,800
figure out what it is they want to do with their property

2093
01:51:17,800 --> 01:51:18,800
and then apply for that zoning.

2094
01:51:18,800 --> 01:51:21,800
Because you are correct, they don't have sufficient acreage

2095
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:21,800
.

2096
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:23,460
They could not plant this property or redevelop this

2097
01:51:23,460 --> 01:51:24,800
property under the current zoning.

2098
01:51:24,800 --> 01:51:28,800
They would have to change the zoning to continue using it.

2099
01:51:28,800 --> 01:51:32,859
And I know that we're looking at this property per se

2100
01:51:32,859 --> 01:51:34,800
without the other three,

2101
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:39,489
but the same thing, that same placeholder applies for the

2102
01:51:39,489 --> 01:51:40,800
other three.

2103
01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:58,800
So I guess in order to do what you just further elaborated,

2104
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:02,800
this whole process for this one specific building

2105
01:52:02,800 --> 01:52:13,920
would have to go through the zoning request and how, I

2106
01:52:13,920 --> 01:52:14,800
guess I can't figure out,

2107
01:52:14,800 --> 01:52:21,510
how can one isolate one building on perhaps a piece of

2108
01:52:21,510 --> 01:52:26,800
property that's one contingent property.

2109
01:52:26,800 --> 01:52:33,989
Okay, if I've got my, bear with me, okay, because I've got

2110
01:52:33,989 --> 01:52:35,800
a piece of land

2111
01:52:35,800 --> 01:52:46,800
and it's zoned as having single family residential.

2112
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:53,159
And then I put more than one building on it that's quote, "

2113
01:52:53,159 --> 01:52:54,800
nonconforming"

2114
01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:58,729
because there's only one property, piece of property that's

2115
01:52:58,729 --> 01:53:02,800
got a certificate of occupancy.

2116
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:09,510
The others are just quote, "big shelves" or storage things

2117
01:53:09,510 --> 01:53:10,800
or that.

2118
01:53:10,800 --> 01:53:15,310
Are those other buildings, you know, how do you take them

2119
01:53:15,310 --> 01:53:19,800
out without dissecting the property?

2120
01:53:19,800 --> 01:53:23,520
I think I follow what you're asking and nonconforming is as

2121
01:53:23,520 --> 01:53:24,800
you want to bring it to your work,

2122
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:27,409
it's a very nuanced. The DDC distinguishes between noncon

2123
01:53:27,409 --> 01:53:29,800
forming site features like parking

2124
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:34,029
or accessory features on a building or on a property, not

2125
01:53:34,029 --> 01:53:37,159
structures, which it sounds like is more what you're

2126
01:53:37,159 --> 01:53:37,800
describing,

2127
01:53:37,800 --> 01:53:40,739
and then nonconforming uses. All of them have different

2128
01:53:40,739 --> 01:53:41,800
regulations that apply.

2129
01:53:41,800 --> 01:53:44,960
In this case, their letter that they originally requested a

2130
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:47,800
determination for was specific to one of four buildings.

2131
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:51,159
And because the use, the nonconforming use is what was in

2132
01:53:51,159 --> 01:53:53,800
question, we looked at those nonconforming use regulations.

2133
01:53:53,800 --> 01:53:56,979
And those use regulations are specific to an individual

2134
01:53:56,979 --> 01:53:59,800
building. They do not, for example,

2135
01:53:59,800 --> 01:54:03,960
if you had a legally nonconforming gas station in one

2136
01:54:03,960 --> 01:54:07,800
building and you wanted to open another part of the

2137
01:54:07,800 --> 01:54:07,800
business

2138
01:54:07,800 --> 01:54:10,520
and another building on the site, you could not do that if

2139
01:54:10,520 --> 01:54:11,800
it was nonconforming.

2140
01:54:11,800 --> 01:54:14,140
You would have to change the zoning to something that

2141
01:54:14,140 --> 01:54:14,800
permits that,

2142
01:54:14,800 --> 01:54:17,739
or you would have to select a different use that conforms

2143
01:54:17,739 --> 01:54:18,800
with the zoning.

2144
01:54:18,800 --> 01:54:23,319
For use only, we have to parse between buildings, the way

2145
01:54:23,319 --> 01:54:24,800
they go is random.

2146
01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:32,800
I couldn't determine, you know, looking at it, is there any

2147
01:54:32,800 --> 01:54:37,800
chain link or anything that defines the property

2148
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:41,979
other than the fact that you got your four buildings on

2149
01:54:41,979 --> 01:54:45,800
there? I couldn't with looking at any of it.

2150
01:54:45,800 --> 01:54:49,180
You know, they're saying, okay, there's lines drawn, but

2151
01:54:49,180 --> 01:54:52,800
does that represent a fencing?

2152
01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:55,060
The lines that you're seeing here, is that what you're

2153
01:54:55,060 --> 01:54:55,800
referencing?

2154
01:54:55,800 --> 01:54:56,800
Yeah.

2155
01:54:56,800 --> 01:54:59,229
Those are fences that were installed, it looks like

2156
01:54:59,229 --> 01:55:01,800
sometime between 2023 and 2025.

2157
01:55:01,800 --> 01:55:03,800
I did not find permit records for those.

2158
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:04,800
Okay.

2159
01:55:04,800 --> 01:55:05,800
There are fences there.

2160
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:11,329
So we're looking at how to handle one building within a

2161
01:55:11,329 --> 01:55:16,800
parcel that is fenced in, if I am correct.

2162
01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:19,800
Okay, thank you.

2163
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:24,979
Are there any other questions from our witness from the

2164
01:55:24,979 --> 01:55:25,800
city?

2165
01:55:25,800 --> 01:55:26,800
Okay.

2166
01:55:26,800 --> 01:55:27,800
Okay, we're done.

2167
01:55:27,800 --> 01:55:28,800
Oh.

2168
01:55:28,800 --> 01:55:30,800
No, no, no, that's all right.

2169
01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:31,800
Okay.

2170
01:55:31,800 --> 01:55:32,800
Just one check.

2171
01:55:32,800 --> 01:55:33,800
Okay.

2172
01:55:33,800 --> 01:55:35,800
I think that's a better answer by the applicant.

2173
01:55:35,800 --> 01:55:36,800
Okay.

2174
01:55:36,800 --> 01:55:39,800
We'll be, all right, thank you for your presentation.

2175
01:55:39,800 --> 01:55:43,800
Will the appellant please present his testimony, evidence,

2176
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:56,800
and arguments that support the appeal?

2177
01:55:56,800 --> 01:55:58,800
Good afternoon, board.

2178
01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:03,800
Thank you for taking this time to hear our appeal.

2179
01:56:03,800 --> 01:56:05,800
Thank you for staying late.

2180
01:56:05,800 --> 01:56:09,000
I used to work for the city of Dallas, and I need this

2181
01:56:09,000 --> 01:56:10,800
attorney, so I don't have long

2182
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:11,800
to be seen now.

2183
01:56:11,800 --> 01:56:13,800
So I'm going to be as brief as possible.

2184
01:56:13,800 --> 01:56:17,029
I also have two witnesses who will be able to answer your

2185
01:56:17,029 --> 01:56:18,800
more specific questions.

2186
01:56:18,800 --> 01:56:21,619
First off, my name is Steve McBath, I'm the general counsel

2187
01:56:21,619 --> 01:56:23,800
, and I'm on behalf of the

2188
01:56:23,800 --> 01:56:27,800
appellant and property under 24K.

2189
01:56:27,800 --> 01:56:31,800
This is the appeal from the planning divisions, May 27th,

2190
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:33,800
administrative determination for

2191
01:56:33,800 --> 01:56:38,800
nonconforming use, that exists at 910 Mayfield Road.

2192
01:56:38,800 --> 01:56:41,600
We ask respectfully that the board reverse that

2193
01:56:41,600 --> 01:56:43,800
determination or in the alternative to

2194
01:56:43,800 --> 01:56:48,659
delay any finding of discontinuance under Denton

2195
01:56:48,659 --> 01:56:52,800
Development Code 1.512-F.

2196
01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:56,239
First, I'd like to tell you that this is one property, and

2197
01:56:56,239 --> 01:56:57,800
there are four buildings on

2198
01:56:57,800 --> 01:57:00,800
it, but it is one continuous property.

2199
01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:04,710
It has been in its exact same use, and it's still being

2200
01:57:04,710 --> 01:57:07,800
used the way it was from 2011.

2201
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:15,800
The buildings were originally put up between 2009 and 2011.

2202
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:21,010
So building 910 has been assigned, and it was assigned back

2203
01:57:21,010 --> 01:57:23,800
just for electricity purposes,

2204
01:57:23,800 --> 01:57:28,319
not because it was being parceled out for them, but this

2205
01:57:28,319 --> 01:57:31,800
was strictly for electricity purposes.

2206
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:35,659
There have been tenants in all of the buildings, except

2207
01:57:35,659 --> 01:57:37,800
this last one, which we spent the last

2208
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:40,800
two years trying to get this person out.

2209
01:57:40,800 --> 01:57:44,989
This became an issue with the city, or brought to the city

2210
01:57:44,989 --> 01:57:46,800
's attention when a new CO was

2211
01:57:46,800 --> 01:57:52,800
sought after in April of this year, April/Romain.

2212
01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:56,880
There was not a previous CO on this property because it

2213
01:57:56,880 --> 01:58:00,800
dates back to 2011, pre-annexation.

2214
01:58:00,800 --> 01:58:05,159
So the city of Denton could not have even given a CO in

2215
01:58:05,159 --> 01:58:09,800
this situation because of the ETJ.

2216
01:58:09,800 --> 01:58:14,340
Second, the city's own findings confirm commercial and

2217
01:58:14,340 --> 01:58:16,800
storage activity has been

2218
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:21,970
existing on this building going all the way through this

2219
01:58:21,970 --> 01:58:22,800
year.

2220
01:58:22,800 --> 01:58:26,369
This use has not been abandoned, it has not been discontin

2221
01:58:26,369 --> 01:58:30,800
ued, and nothing that would

2222
01:58:30,800 --> 01:58:33,800
extinguish the nonconforming rights.

2223
01:58:33,800 --> 01:58:37,800
In fact, nonconforming use is a zoning concept.

2224
01:58:37,800 --> 01:58:42,439
The Supreme Court says it is land use, impermissible for

2225
01:58:42,439 --> 01:58:44,800
current zoning regulations, but

2226
01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:48,300
allowed because it was legal at the time that the

2227
01:58:48,300 --> 01:58:50,800
restriction was not in place.

2228
01:58:50,800 --> 01:58:57,729
This land has been used legally since 2011 and continuously

2229
01:58:57,729 --> 01:59:00,800
since 2011, up until the

2230
01:59:00,800 --> 01:59:11,800
time that it was purchased in March of 2023 by 24K.

2231
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:18,800
And again, as you mentioned, this is a 3.5-acre tract.

2232
01:59:18,800 --> 01:59:21,710
If we cannot do this, then we're stuck with a piece of

2233
01:59:21,710 --> 01:59:23,800
property that no one can do anything

2234
01:59:23,800 --> 01:59:29,800
with because it's too small to develop into anything else.

2235
01:59:29,800 --> 01:59:35,819
Rezoning would take probably a minimum of two years, I

2236
01:59:35,819 --> 01:59:38,800
guess, and it's already cost.

2237
01:59:38,800 --> 01:59:42,409
We're not asking for anything to be done that is not being

2238
01:59:42,409 --> 01:59:43,800
done right now or has been done

2239
01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:44,800
in the past.

2240
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:48,670
We're just asking that we be allowed to continue in the use

2241
01:59:48,670 --> 01:59:49,800
of the property as it's being

2242
01:59:49,800 --> 01:59:51,800
used right now.

2243
01:59:51,800 --> 01:59:57,079
In the alternative, we will ask that the city consider

2244
01:59:57,079 --> 01:59:59,800
owning it off for a period of one

2245
01:59:59,800 --> 02:00:05,130
year to allow us to apply for a new zoning and to get

2246
02:00:05,130 --> 02:00:07,800
everything in order.

2247
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:11,960
We want to do, we want to be good neighbors, and we want to

2248
02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:13,800
break down the city.

2249
02:00:13,800 --> 02:00:16,800
And that's the style I'll take down.

2250
02:00:16,800 --> 02:00:18,800
Any questions?

2251
02:00:18,800 --> 02:00:24,220
Do any members have any questions for our witness, Steve P

2252
02:00:24,220 --> 02:00:24,800
ellin?

2253
02:00:24,800 --> 02:00:26,800
He was first.

2254
02:00:26,800 --> 02:00:28,800
Okay, question?

2255
02:00:28,800 --> 02:00:33,800
Do you have any, I guess, the nature of the lease?

2256
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:36,800
Where is the people that operate in that facility?

2257
02:00:36,800 --> 02:00:40,170
Were they leasing the property or all the other, like all

2258
02:00:40,170 --> 02:00:41,800
the buildings as a whole,

2259
02:00:41,800 --> 02:00:43,800
and do you have those lease agreements?

2260
02:00:43,800 --> 02:00:47,279
I do not have the lease agreements, the less the word pre-

2261
02:00:47,279 --> 02:00:49,800
existing us purchasing the property.

2262
02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:50,800
Okay.

2263
02:00:50,800 --> 02:00:56,800
So, do those agreements exist at all?

2264
02:00:56,800 --> 02:00:58,800
I do not know.

2265
02:00:58,800 --> 02:01:02,060
I do know that there was a tenant who was there and they

2266
02:01:02,060 --> 02:01:03,800
continued and hold on over

2267
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:05,800
status for over two years.

2268
02:01:05,800 --> 02:01:07,800
Do you have records of their payment?

2269
02:01:07,800 --> 02:01:10,800
Uh, I have to ask.

2270
02:01:10,800 --> 02:01:13,800
You don't have to pay cash.

2271
02:01:13,800 --> 02:01:16,800
Okay.

2272
02:01:16,800 --> 02:01:20,800
Go ahead.

2273
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:23,800
Are there utilities on the building?

2274
02:01:23,800 --> 02:01:26,800
There are utilities in one of the buildings.

2275
02:01:26,800 --> 02:01:28,800
You'll need to come into the building.

2276
02:01:28,800 --> 02:01:31,800
You have to speak in front of the camera.

2277
02:01:31,800 --> 02:01:35,800
And we're only looking at the building 910.

2278
02:01:35,800 --> 02:01:36,800
Yes, ma'am.

2279
02:01:36,800 --> 02:01:41,050
So, are there utilities plumbing, electricity, what's

2280
02:01:41,050 --> 02:01:41,800
required by the city,

2281
02:01:41,800 --> 02:01:45,920
and should have been if there was a business going on in

2282
02:01:45,920 --> 02:01:47,800
building 910 North Bank?

2283
02:01:47,800 --> 02:01:49,800
That's a good question.

2284
02:01:49,800 --> 02:01:52,069
From the time that the owner acquired the property and I'm

2285
02:01:52,069 --> 02:01:53,800
the realtor of the delta,

2286
02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:57,800
all the buildings were occupied from the previous owner.

2287
02:01:57,800 --> 02:02:00,130
Electricity, of course, is run to every building, but none

2288
02:02:00,130 --> 02:02:02,800
of those tenants used electricity.

2289
02:02:02,800 --> 02:02:05,449
The reason they didn't use electricity is because they

2290
02:02:05,449 --> 02:02:06,800
could not get electricity is

2291
02:02:06,800 --> 02:02:10,800
because they did not have a driver's license that was

2292
02:02:10,800 --> 02:02:11,800
required by Denton County

2293
02:02:11,800 --> 02:02:15,800
Co-op in order to connect electricity to the building.

2294
02:02:15,800 --> 02:02:16,800
So they all run on generators.

2295
02:02:16,800 --> 02:02:19,300
Even the current tenant that's occupying the final last

2296
02:02:19,300 --> 02:02:20,800
building is running on a

2297
02:02:20,800 --> 02:02:21,800
generator right now.

2298
02:02:21,800 --> 02:02:23,800
Are there plumbing?

2299
02:02:23,800 --> 02:02:25,800
There is no plumbing.

2300
02:02:25,800 --> 02:02:29,800
We do have a water well on the property, so no city water.

2301
02:02:29,800 --> 02:02:31,800
Waste?

2302
02:02:31,800 --> 02:02:33,800
We don't have any plumbing.

2303
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:35,800
How do you have a business in the...

2304
02:02:35,800 --> 02:02:36,800
We do have a septic tank.

2305
02:02:36,800 --> 02:02:39,800
We do have a septic tank.

2306
02:02:39,800 --> 02:02:43,800
And then septic tank would then have to follow...

2307
02:02:43,800 --> 02:02:44,800
We do have it...

2308
02:02:44,800 --> 02:02:45,800
...requirements.

2309
02:02:45,800 --> 02:02:50,220
We do have the septic tank serviced annually and we do have

2310
02:02:50,220 --> 02:02:51,800
records of that.

2311
02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:52,800
You have records of that?

2312
02:02:52,800 --> 02:02:53,800
Yes.

2313
02:02:53,800 --> 02:02:58,800
And has that been since 2013 when it was annexed?

2314
02:02:58,800 --> 02:02:59,800
Yes, ma'am.

2315
02:02:59,800 --> 02:03:04,800
And septic can be used within city under annexation?

2316
02:03:04,800 --> 02:03:07,800
I believe so.

2317
02:03:07,800 --> 02:03:11,800
So city should have records of that?

2318
02:03:11,800 --> 02:03:13,800
Records of the septic?

2319
02:03:13,800 --> 02:03:14,800
I'm assuming so.

2320
02:03:14,800 --> 02:03:15,800
I've never checked.

2321
02:03:15,800 --> 02:03:17,800
I wouldn't know.

2322
02:03:17,800 --> 02:03:20,800
I mean...

2323
02:03:20,800 --> 02:03:21,800
That would also have to be...

2324
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:22,800
I'm sorry.

2325
02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:26,300
It would have to be tied to this one building, 910, not

2326
02:03:26,300 --> 02:03:28,800
septic to all four buildings.

2327
02:03:28,800 --> 02:03:29,800
Right.

2328
02:03:29,800 --> 02:03:33,800
And the septic would be applicable to all four buildings.

2329
02:03:33,800 --> 02:03:38,800
I was about to ask, are they serviced...

2330
02:03:38,800 --> 02:03:41,420
Are there four separate septic tanks or do they all go into

2331
02:03:41,420 --> 02:03:41,800
one?

2332
02:03:41,800 --> 02:03:42,800
All go into one.

2333
02:03:42,800 --> 02:03:43,800
Okay.

2334
02:03:43,800 --> 02:03:46,800
Yes.

2335
02:03:46,800 --> 02:03:50,369
I don't know if we have a packet that we sent that might be

2336
02:03:50,369 --> 02:03:53,800
pulled up that we could view on the stream.

2337
02:03:53,800 --> 02:03:57,800
We certainly provided it to Max.

2338
02:03:57,800 --> 02:04:00,800
And the zoning department.

2339
02:04:00,800 --> 02:04:01,800
Is it?

2340
02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:03,920
We included it in the packet for this particular

2341
02:04:03,920 --> 02:04:04,800
presentation.

2342
02:04:04,800 --> 02:04:05,800
I didn't.

2343
02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:06,800
It's fine.

2344
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:07,800
No?

2345
02:04:07,800 --> 02:04:09,800
It is in the back of my notebook.

2346
02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:10,800
Go ahead.

2347
02:04:10,800 --> 02:04:11,800
Thank you.

2348
02:04:11,800 --> 02:04:12,800
I have a few...

2349
02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:13,800
It is this one.

2350
02:04:13,800 --> 02:04:14,800
Mayor Wilton.

2351
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:15,800
Just above.

2352
02:04:15,800 --> 02:04:16,800
Sure.

2353
02:04:16,800 --> 02:04:17,800
Yeah.

2354
02:04:17,800 --> 02:04:23,579
We're going to try to look at some images here that might

2355
02:04:23,579 --> 02:04:25,800
be able to...

2356
02:04:25,800 --> 02:04:27,800
I kind of pointed us in the right direction.

2357
02:04:27,800 --> 02:04:28,800
The goal of...

2358
02:04:28,800 --> 02:04:32,199
Since the owner took over the property was to try to bring

2359
02:04:32,199 --> 02:04:33,800
in new tenants that could

2360
02:04:33,800 --> 02:04:36,800
actually get us the typical occupancy.

2361
02:04:36,800 --> 02:04:37,800
Okay.

2362
02:04:37,800 --> 02:04:38,800
Our goal was to clean the property up.

2363
02:04:38,800 --> 02:04:39,800
We're going to show you some images here.

2364
02:04:39,800 --> 02:04:42,800
It was just an absolute eyesore.

2365
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:48,329
And after we purchased the property, it was our goal to try

2366
02:04:48,329 --> 02:04:50,800
to get the tenants out.

2367
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:51,800
And I don't...

2368
02:04:51,800 --> 02:04:52,800
Evictions are very difficult.

2369
02:04:52,800 --> 02:04:56,680
And the only thing we could do, which is the easiest way,

2370
02:04:56,680 --> 02:04:58,800
is to raise the rent, which is

2371
02:04:58,800 --> 02:04:59,800
what we tried to do.

2372
02:04:59,800 --> 02:05:00,800
And all these people paid cash.

2373
02:05:00,800 --> 02:05:01,800
Let's go to the images at the bottom.

2374
02:05:01,800 --> 02:05:02,800
It'll be good.

2375
02:05:02,800 --> 02:05:03,800
Yeah.

2376
02:05:03,800 --> 02:05:04,800
That's correct.

2377
02:05:04,800 --> 02:05:05,800
So this is in 2024.

2378
02:05:05,800 --> 02:05:10,800
You can see that all the buildings are actually occupied.

2379
02:05:10,800 --> 02:05:21,359
And as far as it would move from building to building, and

2380
02:05:21,359 --> 02:05:25,800
we would have to come and

2381
02:05:25,800 --> 02:05:28,930
get on and continuously about changing buildings without

2382
02:05:28,930 --> 02:05:29,800
permission.

2383
02:05:29,800 --> 02:05:30,800
Okay.

2384
02:05:30,800 --> 02:05:32,510
So you can understand while we're trying to get the tenants

2385
02:05:32,510 --> 02:05:32,800
out.

2386
02:05:32,800 --> 02:05:36,560
And we were involved in not actually executing a written

2387
02:05:36,560 --> 02:05:38,800
lease with these people because

2388
02:05:38,800 --> 02:05:40,800
we didn't want them there.

2389
02:05:40,800 --> 02:05:42,800
Our goal was to try to get them out.

2390
02:05:42,800 --> 02:05:46,180
And if you'll scroll down and kind of look at the

2391
02:05:46,180 --> 02:05:48,800
historical, you'll see even back coming

2392
02:05:48,800 --> 02:05:50,800
up, it just got worse.

2393
02:05:50,800 --> 02:05:55,890
When we bought the property, it was just continued to get

2394
02:05:55,890 --> 02:05:56,800
worse.

2395
02:05:56,800 --> 02:06:01,399
People were dumped behind the buildings that just would

2396
02:06:01,399 --> 02:06:03,800
come on a Sunday and just dump

2397
02:06:03,800 --> 02:06:04,800
trash.

2398
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:09,159
So we were trying to gain control and prevent it from being

2399
02:06:09,159 --> 02:06:11,800
such an eyesore for the community

2400
02:06:11,800 --> 02:06:12,800
in the street.

2401
02:06:12,800 --> 02:06:15,800
And Bay Hill now has become a very well-traveled street.

2402
02:06:15,800 --> 02:06:16,800
You're going backwards?

2403
02:06:16,800 --> 02:06:17,800
Yeah.

2404
02:06:17,800 --> 02:06:18,800
To 2018.

2405
02:06:18,800 --> 02:06:21,800
If you all purchased the property in '23.

2406
02:06:21,800 --> 02:06:22,800
Yes.

2407
02:06:22,800 --> 02:06:24,800
Let's not look at anything from...

2408
02:06:24,800 --> 02:06:25,800
Okay.

2409
02:06:25,800 --> 02:06:26,800
So here's '23.

2410
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:32,260
And then you can see they were operating out of all the

2411
02:06:32,260 --> 02:06:33,800
buildings.

2412
02:06:33,800 --> 02:06:38,010
This building was occupied by this tenant, which was a sp

2413
02:06:38,010 --> 02:06:38,800
arser.

2414
02:06:38,800 --> 02:06:39,800
Okay.

2415
02:06:39,800 --> 02:06:40,800
And then...

2416
02:06:40,800 --> 02:06:41,800
This is 910, by the way.

2417
02:06:41,800 --> 02:06:42,800
Right.

2418
02:06:42,800 --> 02:06:43,800
And that one.

2419
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:44,800
Yeah.

2420
02:06:44,800 --> 02:06:45,800
All right.

2421
02:06:45,800 --> 02:06:54,630
But there's nothing saying what was being done inside those

2422
02:06:54,630 --> 02:06:56,800
buildings.

2423
02:06:56,800 --> 02:06:59,800
There's no photographs.

2424
02:06:59,800 --> 02:07:04,800
There's no written evidence if they were on generators.

2425
02:07:04,800 --> 02:07:07,800
And I'm sorry, I know it's not...

2426
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:08,800
Well, no.

2427
02:07:08,800 --> 02:07:09,800
It's not.

2428
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:10,800
Okay.

2429
02:07:10,800 --> 02:07:15,970
It's kind of hard to provide evidence when they operated

2430
02:07:15,970 --> 02:07:17,800
the way they did.

2431
02:07:17,800 --> 02:07:20,829
Our goal was to get them out and to try to carry it to a

2432
02:07:20,829 --> 02:07:22,800
legal non-conforming use that

2433
02:07:22,800 --> 02:07:24,800
the buildings had all along.

2434
02:07:24,800 --> 02:07:26,800
I mean, they've been there quite some time before.

2435
02:07:26,800 --> 02:07:27,800
Annexation?

2436
02:07:27,800 --> 02:07:28,800
Yes, sir.

2437
02:07:28,800 --> 02:07:29,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2438
02:07:29,800 --> 02:07:30,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2439
02:07:30,800 --> 02:07:31,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2440
02:07:31,800 --> 02:07:32,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2441
02:07:32,800 --> 02:07:33,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2442
02:07:33,800 --> 02:07:34,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2443
02:07:34,800 --> 02:07:35,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2444
02:07:35,800 --> 02:07:36,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2445
02:07:36,800 --> 02:07:37,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2446
02:07:37,800 --> 02:07:38,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2447
02:07:38,800 --> 02:07:39,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2448
02:07:39,800 --> 02:07:40,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2449
02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:41,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2450
02:07:41,800 --> 02:07:42,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2451
02:07:42,800 --> 02:07:43,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2452
02:07:43,800 --> 02:08:02,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2453
02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:23,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2454
02:08:23,800 --> 02:08:44,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2455
02:08:44,800 --> 02:09:05,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2456
02:09:05,800 --> 02:09:25,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2457
02:09:25,800 --> 02:09:39,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2458
02:09:39,800 --> 02:09:40,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2459
02:09:40,800 --> 02:09:41,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2460
02:09:41,800 --> 02:09:42,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2461
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:43,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2462
02:09:43,800 --> 02:09:44,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2463
02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:45,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2464
02:09:45,800 --> 02:09:46,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2465
02:09:46,800 --> 02:09:47,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2466
02:09:47,800 --> 02:09:48,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2467
02:09:48,800 --> 02:09:49,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2468
02:09:49,800 --> 02:09:50,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2469
02:09:50,800 --> 02:09:51,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2470
02:09:51,800 --> 02:09:52,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2471
02:09:52,800 --> 02:09:53,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2472
02:09:53,800 --> 02:09:58,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2473
02:09:58,800 --> 02:09:59,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2474
02:09:59,800 --> 02:10:00,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2475
02:10:00,800 --> 02:10:01,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2476
02:10:01,800 --> 02:10:02,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2477
02:10:02,800 --> 02:10:03,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2478
02:10:03,800 --> 02:10:04,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2479
02:10:04,800 --> 02:10:05,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2480
02:10:05,800 --> 02:10:06,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2481
02:10:06,800 --> 02:10:07,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2482
02:10:07,800 --> 02:10:08,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2483
02:10:08,800 --> 02:10:09,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2484
02:10:09,800 --> 02:10:10,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2485
02:10:10,800 --> 02:10:11,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2486
02:10:11,800 --> 02:10:12,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2487
02:10:12,800 --> 02:10:27,800
And they were able to get them out of the buildings.

2488
02:10:27,800 --> 02:10:29,800
So there is more information available that could establish

2489
02:10:29,800 --> 02:10:33,800
.

2490
02:10:33,800 --> 02:10:38,909
Is there proof of, I guess, bank deposits of what the rent

2491
02:10:38,909 --> 02:10:39,800
would be?

2492
02:10:39,800 --> 02:10:43,800
Well, I certainly have historical photographs of photos

2493
02:10:43,800 --> 02:10:46,460
that I've taken when I visited the property through the

2494
02:10:46,460 --> 02:10:46,800
years.

2495
02:10:46,800 --> 02:10:50,800
Yeah, like that building specifically of it in use?

2496
02:10:50,800 --> 02:10:54,800
Of trash and beer cans and things that we were upset about.

2497
02:10:54,800 --> 02:10:57,800
We were trying to just eliminate the ten-volume.

2498
02:10:57,800 --> 02:10:58,800
So inside the building too?

2499
02:10:58,800 --> 02:10:59,800
It was all the buildings.

2500
02:10:59,800 --> 02:11:03,800
No, but like you have photos of it inside 910?

2501
02:11:03,800 --> 02:11:06,800
No, I did not.

2502
02:11:06,800 --> 02:11:07,800
Okay.

2503
02:11:07,800 --> 02:11:09,800
So just the outside of the building?

2504
02:11:09,800 --> 02:11:11,800
I didn't care to go in the building's gas.

2505
02:11:11,800 --> 02:11:12,800
Okay.

2506
02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:13,800
Yeah.

2507
02:11:13,800 --> 02:11:14,800
Richard.

2508
02:11:14,800 --> 02:11:18,579
So would any of this have been applicable to prove to the

2509
02:11:18,579 --> 02:11:21,800
city that it was being occupied by a business?

2510
02:11:21,800 --> 02:11:24,289
Because based on their presentation, it seemed like they

2511
02:11:24,289 --> 02:11:25,800
had no evidence that there was.

2512
02:11:25,800 --> 02:11:27,800
Yeah, I see that.

2513
02:11:27,800 --> 02:11:33,229
The only way to establish occupancy, of course, is with a

2514
02:11:33,229 --> 02:11:38,090
certificate of occupancy or with a utility bill, which we

2515
02:11:38,090 --> 02:11:38,800
're not in city water.

2516
02:11:38,800 --> 02:11:39,800
We're in well water.

2517
02:11:39,800 --> 02:11:42,720
And those guys did not have the ability to acquire

2518
02:11:42,720 --> 02:11:43,800
electricity.

2519
02:11:43,800 --> 02:11:47,130
And it is not the owner's responsibility to get the

2520
02:11:47,130 --> 02:11:49,800
certificate of occupancy in a lease.

2521
02:11:49,800 --> 02:11:51,800
It makes the tenant responsible.

2522
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:55,800
But those leases were so old.

2523
02:11:55,800 --> 02:11:59,800
And in order to go to...

2524
02:11:59,800 --> 02:12:07,800
So yeah, I would want to see like bank statements of rent,

2525
02:12:07,800 --> 02:12:15,369
like the amounts and like the photos and I guess what other

2526
02:12:15,369 --> 02:12:17,800
information that you can gather to prove.

2527
02:12:17,800 --> 02:12:23,800
It is... I'm willing to hear more on it.

2528
02:12:23,800 --> 02:12:25,800
I don't know if anyone else is.

2529
02:12:25,800 --> 02:12:29,989
And I would like to ask some city staff questions after

2530
02:12:29,989 --> 02:12:33,800
everybody has the question of the appellate.

2531
02:12:33,800 --> 02:12:35,800
Okay.

2532
02:12:35,800 --> 02:12:38,829
Are there any other questions for the appellate on the

2533
02:12:38,829 --> 02:12:39,800
front board?

2534
02:12:39,800 --> 02:12:40,800
I have a question.

2535
02:12:40,800 --> 02:12:44,989
Were any of these businesses required to have licenses or

2536
02:12:44,989 --> 02:12:49,170
anything from the county or any jurisdiction they were in

2537
02:12:49,170 --> 02:12:52,800
to show you just can't open up a shop and say, okay, you

2538
02:12:52,800 --> 02:12:52,800
know,

2539
02:12:52,800 --> 02:12:56,359
I'm going to be an electrician without some licenses or

2540
02:12:56,359 --> 02:12:58,800
somebody coming out and inspect.

2541
02:12:58,800 --> 02:13:02,109
I know that you're talking about probably undocumented

2542
02:13:02,109 --> 02:13:02,800
people.

2543
02:13:02,800 --> 02:13:07,159
But I mean, you want us to take on face value everything

2544
02:13:07,159 --> 02:13:10,520
that you're saying when we're asking for proof and you don

2545
02:13:10,520 --> 02:13:13,930
't have any proof, much less what they pay because they're

2546
02:13:13,930 --> 02:13:14,800
paying cash.

2547
02:13:14,800 --> 02:13:18,050
Haven't provided proof when we sent a whole packet for

2548
02:13:18,050 --> 02:13:19,800
review to the Zumba club.

2549
02:13:19,800 --> 02:13:22,800
He doesn't have nine ten. That lease doesn't have nine ten.

2550
02:13:22,800 --> 02:13:25,800
That kind of is the issue.

2551
02:13:25,800 --> 02:13:29,699
It's the building that is being addressed as a building

2552
02:13:29,699 --> 02:13:33,800
that we have a new tenant in place and wants to lease it.

2553
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:36,560
And he filed for a certificate of occupancy and that's how

2554
02:13:36,560 --> 02:13:37,800
all this came about.

2555
02:13:37,800 --> 02:13:40,199
In which we wanted him to do the right thing and get a

2556
02:13:40,199 --> 02:13:41,800
certificate of occupancy.

2557
02:13:41,800 --> 02:13:45,960
It was us that pressed him to make sure he had a CEO in

2558
02:13:45,960 --> 02:13:46,800
place.

2559
02:13:46,800 --> 02:13:51,460
And the answer to your question is, is one was supposed to

2560
02:13:51,460 --> 02:13:55,800
be a lawn service and he was working on automobiles.

2561
02:13:55,800 --> 02:13:59,800
Well, we hated this guy. It was just cars everywhere.

2562
02:13:59,800 --> 02:14:02,800
You could see what was happening.

2563
02:14:02,800 --> 02:14:04,800
And yes, sir.

2564
02:14:04,800 --> 02:14:09,800
This was, as you said, this was before annexation.

2565
02:14:09,800 --> 02:14:14,560
Are there any county documents available to you on these

2566
02:14:14,560 --> 02:14:17,800
properties and occupantization?

2567
02:14:17,800 --> 02:14:21,159
Typically when it's in a HGJ or a county there's no

2568
02:14:21,159 --> 02:14:23,800
certificate of occupancy required.

2569
02:14:23,800 --> 02:14:26,619
The only thing that would probably be required maybe is a

2570
02:14:26,619 --> 02:14:27,800
firing inspection.

2571
02:14:27,800 --> 02:14:29,800
So we wouldn't have to do this.

2572
02:14:29,800 --> 02:14:30,800
And the well water.

2573
02:14:30,800 --> 02:14:31,800
I'm sorry?

2574
02:14:31,800 --> 02:14:32,800
And the well water.

2575
02:14:32,800 --> 02:14:34,800
And the well water.

2576
02:14:34,800 --> 02:14:45,210
But none of that answers the question of nonconformity for

2577
02:14:45,210 --> 02:14:49,800
property 910 North and Angle.

2578
02:14:49,800 --> 02:14:50,800
Yeah.

2579
02:14:50,800 --> 02:14:51,800
Correct.

2580
02:14:51,800 --> 02:14:52,800
Right.

2581
02:14:52,800 --> 02:14:54,800
Yeah.

2582
02:14:54,800 --> 02:14:58,800
Has everybody had questions for the appellant?

2583
02:14:58,800 --> 02:14:59,800
Answered.

2584
02:14:59,800 --> 02:15:01,800
Dr. Wormski.

2585
02:15:01,800 --> 02:15:08,619
Looking at the hierarchy as to who has what, you had an

2586
02:15:08,619 --> 02:15:14,800
original property owner that sold the property,

2587
02:15:14,800 --> 02:15:17,800
at which time you became involved, sir?

2588
02:15:17,800 --> 02:15:18,800
Yes.

2589
02:15:18,800 --> 02:15:20,800
As a property manager for the new owner?

2590
02:15:20,800 --> 02:15:21,800
No.

2591
02:15:21,800 --> 02:15:26,460
This is a real hurt in the negotiating the sale transaction

2592
02:15:26,460 --> 02:15:26,800
.

2593
02:15:26,800 --> 02:15:27,800
Okay.

2594
02:15:27,800 --> 02:15:28,800
So you're worried now.

2595
02:15:28,800 --> 02:15:32,800
You, sir, function as the legal counsel for...

2596
02:15:32,800 --> 02:15:33,800
Yes.

2597
02:15:33,800 --> 02:15:34,800
Okay.

2598
02:15:34,800 --> 02:15:37,800
That's when I came on in May after Brown before.

2599
02:15:37,800 --> 02:15:48,409
So if a building has a certificate of occupancy and it is

2600
02:15:48,409 --> 02:15:53,800
non-transferable at a sale,

2601
02:15:53,800 --> 02:16:00,210
you mentioned that the person going in as the cabinet

2602
02:16:00,210 --> 02:16:06,800
banker or an embroiderer or whatever has to apply for it.

2603
02:16:06,800 --> 02:16:13,000
Is it not the responsibility, and you may not be the one to

2604
02:16:13,000 --> 02:16:15,800
answer this discussion after,

2605
02:16:15,800 --> 02:16:20,989
is it not the responsibility, I would think, of...I've

2606
02:16:20,989 --> 02:16:24,800
owned properties in other states but not Texas.

2607
02:16:24,800 --> 02:16:27,800
Okay.

2608
02:16:27,800 --> 02:16:33,629
That the person who owns the property and then is looking

2609
02:16:33,629 --> 02:16:38,799
toward utilizing it for rental income and renting,

2610
02:16:38,799 --> 02:16:45,059
they are the ones responsible for getting the certificate,

2611
02:16:45,059 --> 02:16:47,799
not the person who comes in as the...

2612
02:16:47,799 --> 02:16:49,799
The tenant is always responsible.

2613
02:16:49,799 --> 02:16:51,799
The lessor has to come.

2614
02:16:51,799 --> 02:16:52,799
Pardon me.

2615
02:16:52,799 --> 02:16:53,799
It's the owner.

2616
02:16:53,799 --> 02:16:54,799
No.

2617
02:16:54,799 --> 02:16:58,600
The tenant has to come and get the certificate of occupancy

2618
02:16:58,600 --> 02:16:59,799
from the city.

2619
02:16:59,799 --> 02:17:00,799
Oh, okay.

2620
02:17:00,799 --> 02:17:02,799
That's different than what I...

2621
02:17:02,799 --> 02:17:03,799
Okay.

2622
02:17:03,799 --> 02:17:09,030
So if there was an existing CO when the property

2623
02:17:09,030 --> 02:17:13,799
transferred from one owner to the other,

2624
02:17:13,799 --> 02:17:16,799
that CO does not go to the owner, it goes to the tenant.

2625
02:17:16,799 --> 02:17:17,799
Okay.

2626
02:17:17,799 --> 02:17:20,270
So each time you write a lease with a new company, you have

2627
02:17:20,270 --> 02:17:20,799
a new CO.

2628
02:17:20,799 --> 02:17:21,799
Well, they have to get it.

2629
02:17:21,799 --> 02:17:22,799
They have to get a tenant.

2630
02:17:22,799 --> 02:17:23,799
Yeah, that's what I mean.

2631
02:17:23,799 --> 02:17:26,799
They have to apply for it and get it in document.

2632
02:17:26,799 --> 02:17:27,799
Okay.

2633
02:17:27,799 --> 02:17:40,350
And if electricity is one of the criteria, as long as the

2634
02:17:40,350 --> 02:17:45,799
property has access to electricity,

2635
02:17:45,799 --> 02:17:53,209
but that electricity does not have to "go to a meter" which

2636
02:17:53,209 --> 02:17:57,799
then provides the electricity.

2637
02:17:57,799 --> 02:18:02,180
So if someone is coming in and as you're saying, these

2638
02:18:02,180 --> 02:18:04,799
individuals were using generators.

2639
02:18:04,799 --> 02:18:05,799
Yeah.

2640
02:18:05,799 --> 02:18:06,799
You still get...

2641
02:18:06,799 --> 02:18:07,799
Or no electricity at all.

2642
02:18:07,799 --> 02:18:08,799
Yeah, or not.

2643
02:18:08,799 --> 02:18:13,020
But I mean, if they're using a generator, there was still,

2644
02:18:13,020 --> 02:18:14,799
in order to qualify for a

2645
02:18:14,799 --> 02:18:16,799
CO, there was still electricity available.

2646
02:18:16,799 --> 02:18:20,799
They were just not affording themselves the opportunity.

2647
02:18:20,799 --> 02:18:21,799
Yeah.

2648
02:18:21,799 --> 02:18:22,799
Okay.

2649
02:18:22,799 --> 02:18:23,799
To get the electricity, you need a CO.

2650
02:18:23,799 --> 02:18:24,799
Yeah.

2651
02:18:24,799 --> 02:18:25,799
To get the electricity, you need a dropper's license.

2652
02:18:25,799 --> 02:18:26,799
So...

2653
02:18:26,799 --> 02:18:27,799
They could not produce it.

2654
02:18:27,799 --> 02:18:28,799
It was pretty simple.

2655
02:18:28,799 --> 02:18:29,799
They could produce it.

2656
02:18:29,799 --> 02:18:30,799
The tenant is pre-existing in the annexation by the way.

2657
02:18:30,799 --> 02:18:31,799
Okay.

2658
02:18:31,799 --> 02:18:32,799
Yeah, that's my question.

2659
02:18:32,799 --> 02:18:33,799
I forgot my question.

2660
02:18:33,799 --> 02:18:34,799
Okay.

2661
02:18:34,799 --> 02:18:35,799
Always.

2662
02:18:35,799 --> 02:18:36,799
Yeah, my question is, like, they were...

2663
02:18:36,799 --> 02:18:37,799
As far as I'm concerned.

2664
02:18:37,799 --> 02:18:38,799
They were...

2665
02:18:38,799 --> 02:18:48,040
The person in the...

2666
02:18:48,040 --> 02:18:50,040
Is that the Esparza rental right there?

2667
02:18:50,040 --> 02:18:51,040
Yep, it is.

2668
02:18:51,040 --> 02:18:52,040
Yeah.

2669
02:18:52,040 --> 02:18:53,040
So why did...

2670
02:18:53,040 --> 02:18:57,290
If he was occupying that building and using that building,

2671
02:18:57,290 --> 02:18:59,239
why was he not on...

2672
02:18:59,239 --> 02:19:02,719
Why was that building not on the lease with the others?

2673
02:19:02,719 --> 02:19:03,719
Well, like I said...

2674
02:19:03,719 --> 02:19:04,719
Go ahead.

2675
02:19:04,719 --> 02:19:07,559
Oh, I'll also go and point out that...

2676
02:19:07,559 --> 02:19:10,790
That's a question, unfortunately, I can't answer or he can

2677
02:19:10,790 --> 02:19:12,879
't answer because this pre-exists...

2678
02:19:12,879 --> 02:19:15,879
This predates us, right?

2679
02:19:15,879 --> 02:19:22,129
But he would move and occupy a building that was unoccupied

2680
02:19:22,129 --> 02:19:22,600
.

2681
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:28,159
That's sort of the problem that we have with the Esparza.

2682
02:19:28,159 --> 02:19:31,489
He continued with about a 24K in the month to month, month

2683
02:19:31,489 --> 02:19:33,040
to month, month to month,

2684
02:19:33,040 --> 02:19:36,969
month to month, until he stopped paying and then he finally

2685
02:19:36,969 --> 02:19:37,760
ran out.

2686
02:19:37,760 --> 02:19:38,760
Okay.

2687
02:19:38,760 --> 02:19:39,760
But yeah.

2688
02:19:39,760 --> 02:19:42,920
Then this is my question, are these buildings not locked?

2689
02:19:42,920 --> 02:19:45,280
Do they not have separate keys?

2690
02:19:45,280 --> 02:19:46,280
The vacant ones don't.

2691
02:19:46,280 --> 02:19:47,280
They're just an overhead door.

2692
02:19:47,280 --> 02:19:48,280
They were not locked.

2693
02:19:48,280 --> 02:19:49,280
It's a metal building.

2694
02:19:49,280 --> 02:19:50,059
And if they were locked, if there was a lock, Esparza could

2695
02:19:50,059 --> 02:19:50,280
get in.

2696
02:19:50,280 --> 02:19:51,280
He was pretty...

2697
02:19:51,280 --> 02:19:52,280
He was a cabinet maker.

2698
02:19:52,280 --> 02:19:53,280
Well, if it's a locked building...

2699
02:19:53,280 --> 02:19:54,280
He shouldn't.

2700
02:19:54,280 --> 02:19:55,280
...and it's not used by the...

2701
02:19:55,280 --> 02:19:56,280
He shouldn't.

2702
02:19:56,280 --> 02:19:57,280
...and it's not used by the...

2703
02:19:57,280 --> 02:19:58,280
He shouldn't.

2704
02:19:58,280 --> 02:19:59,280
...and it's not used by the...

2705
02:19:59,280 --> 02:20:00,280
He shouldn't.

2706
02:20:00,280 --> 02:20:04,870
...and it's not used by the authorized key, that's an

2707
02:20:04,870 --> 02:20:06,239
illegal entry.

2708
02:20:06,239 --> 02:20:07,239
Well he shouldn't.

2709
02:20:07,239 --> 02:20:12,510
But if he agrees to pay rent and we're there collecting

2710
02:20:12,510 --> 02:20:15,920
rent, it's hard to turn the money

2711
02:20:15,920 --> 02:20:16,920
down.

2712
02:20:16,920 --> 02:20:17,920
Okay.

2713
02:20:17,920 --> 02:20:19,760
So, and you can...

2714
02:20:19,760 --> 02:20:22,709
What was the amount of rent that he had paid month to month

2715
02:20:22,709 --> 02:20:23,000
?

2716
02:20:23,000 --> 02:20:28,010
I want to say, in the beginning, it was 1,800 if I remember

2717
02:20:28,010 --> 02:20:28,799
right.

2718
02:20:28,799 --> 02:20:32,780
And then we moved it up to 2,000 and then 2,200 and we

2719
02:20:32,780 --> 02:20:34,639
slowly just tried to...

2720
02:20:34,639 --> 02:20:37,799
Okay, so there should be records of those payments.

2721
02:20:37,799 --> 02:20:39,760
There's probably a letter, of course.

2722
02:20:39,760 --> 02:20:41,959
I mean also bank statements of the...

2723
02:20:41,959 --> 02:20:42,959
Right, for the deposits.

2724
02:20:42,959 --> 02:20:43,959
Yeah, and those are...

2725
02:20:43,959 --> 02:20:44,959
Okay.

2726
02:20:44,959 --> 02:20:45,959
Yeah.

2727
02:20:45,959 --> 02:20:50,959
It's really interesting.

2728
02:20:50,959 --> 02:20:51,959
Are there any...

2729
02:20:51,959 --> 02:20:52,959
Oh, yes, we have one.

2730
02:20:52,959 --> 02:21:02,620
So the flow chart, the whole need for this is because one,

2731
02:21:02,620 --> 02:21:07,879
you want email and the eviction

2732
02:21:07,879 --> 02:21:17,569
process, whatever it means, two, in order to have that one

2733
02:21:17,569 --> 02:21:21,600
building be utilized and

2734
02:21:21,600 --> 02:21:29,159
rented to a individual business is what it is.

2735
02:21:29,159 --> 02:21:37,200
It's because the other buildings, if one, they're vacant,

2736
02:21:37,200 --> 02:21:40,840
what zoning or previous can

2737
02:21:40,840 --> 02:21:49,000
be demonstrated that didn't lapse if those were to be

2738
02:21:49,000 --> 02:21:53,719
rented out by the owner or this

2739
02:21:53,719 --> 02:22:01,340
gentleman was utilizing, hopping from building to building

2740
02:22:01,340 --> 02:22:05,079
or spreading out and the owner

2741
02:22:05,079 --> 02:22:09,409
wants to make not only this building but he would also want

2742
02:22:09,409 --> 02:22:11,399
to look toward having the

2743
02:22:11,399 --> 02:22:15,739
other buildings be in compliance because right now I'm

2744
02:22:15,739 --> 02:22:18,760
understanding that nothing on there

2745
02:22:18,760 --> 02:22:27,120
is in compliance or did I come to a wrong conclusion?

2746
02:22:27,120 --> 02:22:30,610
From what I understand, none of the buildings will be in

2747
02:22:30,610 --> 02:22:32,520
compliance as of right now.

2748
02:22:32,520 --> 02:22:34,579
So the only thing that's happening is that they are all

2749
02:22:34,579 --> 02:22:36,159
still operating under the continuous

2750
02:22:36,159 --> 02:22:37,159
use.

2751
02:22:37,159 --> 02:22:38,159
Well, there's only one building that's occupied.

2752
02:22:38,159 --> 02:22:39,159
Okay.

2753
02:22:39,159 --> 02:22:40,159
Yeah, but yeah, they have not been...

2754
02:22:40,159 --> 02:22:41,159
We successfully evicted the tenants basically.

2755
02:22:41,159 --> 02:22:42,159
Yeah, I have a good question.

2756
02:22:42,159 --> 02:22:43,159
You're talking about generators.

2757
02:22:43,159 --> 02:22:50,159
What kind of generators were these used in?

2758
02:22:50,159 --> 02:22:51,159
Loud ones.

2759
02:22:51,159 --> 02:22:55,540
Well, I mean, a generator uses a lot of fuel and how are

2760
02:22:55,540 --> 02:22:58,159
they moving this generator?

2761
02:22:58,159 --> 02:23:00,620
It's not a portable that you just pick it up and carry it

2762
02:23:00,620 --> 02:23:01,200
around.

2763
02:23:01,200 --> 02:23:05,879
I mean, it's like it goes on a set of car wheels.

2764
02:23:05,879 --> 02:23:09,350
How's he moving this around and moving all this fuel around

2765
02:23:09,350 --> 02:23:09,639
?

2766
02:23:09,639 --> 02:23:12,329
That's what confuses me and where are all the electrical

2767
02:23:12,329 --> 02:23:12,840
cords?

2768
02:23:12,840 --> 02:23:15,170
Well, I can take a picture of the current tenant of this

2769
02:23:15,170 --> 02:23:15,840
generator.

2770
02:23:15,840 --> 02:23:16,840
I'll be happy to.

2771
02:23:16,840 --> 02:23:19,840
I don't know what size it is.

2772
02:23:19,840 --> 02:23:23,479
But I mean, if you're running a shop for building cabinets,

2773
02:23:23,479 --> 02:23:25,719
I mean, you must have had a thousand

2774
02:23:25,719 --> 02:23:28,760
feet of electrical wire running around in there.

2775
02:23:28,760 --> 02:23:32,190
Anybody who's been in a shop that builds cabinets, you don

2776
02:23:32,190 --> 02:23:34,200
't get a little extension cord.

2777
02:23:34,200 --> 02:23:39,659
You have to have big cords for 240 volt equipment and stuff

2778
02:23:39,659 --> 02:23:40,040
.

2779
02:23:40,040 --> 02:23:44,440
It just seems pretty impossible that this guy can do all

2780
02:23:44,440 --> 02:23:46,719
this stuff and there aren't

2781
02:23:46,719 --> 02:23:49,719
pictures or something like that of all this heavy equipment

2782
02:23:49,719 --> 02:23:51,000
that he would need in the

2783
02:23:51,000 --> 02:23:53,940
setup that he would have for these buildings and the time

2784
02:23:53,940 --> 02:23:55,639
and effort and expense it would

2785
02:23:55,639 --> 02:23:59,360
be to move this generator around everywhere.

2786
02:23:59,360 --> 02:24:05,069
Well, I want to tell you that I do not follow exactly what

2787
02:24:05,069 --> 02:24:08,360
you're saying, but up until April

2788
02:24:08,360 --> 02:24:12,440
of this year, May of this year, there was never a need to

2789
02:24:12,440 --> 02:24:14,559
have pictures of any of this

2790
02:24:14,559 --> 02:24:18,010
information because we were not even aware at the time that

2791
02:24:18,010 --> 02:24:19,799
this wasn't a nonconforming

2792
02:24:19,799 --> 02:24:20,799
use.

2793
02:24:20,799 --> 02:24:24,420
We've simply been utilizing the property the same way we

2794
02:24:24,420 --> 02:24:27,000
had from the moment it was purchased,

2795
02:24:27,000 --> 02:24:31,250
from the same way it was being utilized, from the day these

2796
02:24:31,250 --> 02:24:34,360
buildings were put up in 2009.

2797
02:24:34,360 --> 02:24:40,280
We've just been going along the same tenant, until we end

2798
02:24:40,280 --> 02:24:42,479
up in a bad tenant.

2799
02:24:42,479 --> 02:24:44,479
But other than that, everything's remained the same.

2800
02:24:44,479 --> 02:24:55,989
Is the generator, because of your inquiry, is it a

2801
02:24:55,989 --> 02:24:58,120
permanent, you know, a generator or

2802
02:24:58,120 --> 02:25:01,120
are we talking about the mobile plate generators?

2803
02:25:01,120 --> 02:25:06,100
And if you attach a generator and they don't have a meter,

2804
02:25:06,100 --> 02:25:08,600
because that's the reason they

2805
02:25:08,600 --> 02:25:12,530
would stay off, you can attach the generator and have your

2806
02:25:12,530 --> 02:25:14,399
wiring such that it goes to

2807
02:25:14,399 --> 02:25:17,399
where the knockout is for the meter.

2808
02:25:17,399 --> 02:25:20,399
I guess you could.

2809
02:25:20,399 --> 02:25:24,120
I wouldn't know, you know.

2810
02:25:24,120 --> 02:25:28,329
It's a big generator, it's a lot of effort and a lot of

2811
02:25:28,329 --> 02:25:30,600
fuel and it's a pain to do that.

2812
02:25:30,600 --> 02:25:33,680
This isn't like, hey today we're just going to open a

2813
02:25:33,680 --> 02:25:35,319
debate and talk to kids.

2814
02:25:35,319 --> 02:25:38,120
It's not the owners business.

2815
02:25:38,120 --> 02:25:41,590
No I understand that, but if you're out there seeing it,

2816
02:25:41,590 --> 02:25:43,639
what kind of generator was it?

2817
02:25:43,639 --> 02:25:45,989
It's not a suitcase size, I mean it's the size of a Leica

2818
02:25:45,989 --> 02:25:47,399
Volkswagen if you're talking

2819
02:25:47,399 --> 02:25:50,399
about these generators for business.

2820
02:25:50,399 --> 02:25:51,399
That's not true.

2821
02:25:51,399 --> 02:25:54,399
I can provide you with a generator.

2822
02:25:54,399 --> 02:25:56,399
I'm afraid to build it.

2823
02:25:56,399 --> 02:26:01,159
No, I'm just asking everyone, just as a reminder, like it's

2824
02:26:01,159 --> 02:26:03,719
to wait for the chair to call upon

2825
02:26:03,719 --> 02:26:07,600
whoever's speaking, whether it be the Helen or whatever.

2826
02:26:07,600 --> 02:26:12,280
It's all good, we can get in touch sometimes.

2827
02:26:12,280 --> 02:26:18,180
I just want to remind everyone who's here just of that

2828
02:26:18,180 --> 02:26:19,840
guideline.

2829
02:26:19,840 --> 02:26:25,459
I do ask, are there any other questions that we have for

2830
02:26:25,459 --> 02:26:27,360
our appellant?

2831
02:26:27,360 --> 02:26:29,319
Okay.

2832
02:26:29,319 --> 02:26:33,239
Hearing none, thank you for your presentation and comments.

2833
02:26:33,239 --> 02:26:36,239
Does the city have any rebuttal comments?

2834
02:26:36,239 --> 02:26:37,239
Okay.

2835
02:26:37,239 --> 02:26:42,170
If so, you have up to two minutes per speaker for rebuttal

2836
02:26:42,170 --> 02:26:44,559
with a total of no more than

2837
02:26:44,559 --> 02:26:47,559
ten minutes from all speakers from this party.

2838
02:26:47,559 --> 02:26:52,690
Yes, so just a few points to clarify based on what was

2839
02:26:52,690 --> 02:26:55,120
stated this evening.

2840
02:26:55,120 --> 02:26:58,129
So they argued that there was no CO because the use of

2841
02:26:58,129 --> 02:27:00,799
building 910 predates the annexation

2842
02:27:00,799 --> 02:27:02,799
date back to 2011.

2843
02:27:02,799 --> 02:27:06,139
However, that is not what was stated in the application and

2844
02:27:06,139 --> 02:27:07,840
affidavit provided to staff

2845
02:27:07,840 --> 02:27:10,000
that our determination was based upon.

2846
02:27:10,000 --> 02:27:12,299
That information indicated that Esparza began using the

2847
02:27:12,299 --> 02:27:14,360
building in 2023 after their purchase

2848
02:27:14,360 --> 02:27:16,360
of the property in 2021.

2849
02:27:16,360 --> 02:27:19,290
So I just wanted to clarify that staff, again, was given no

2850
02:27:19,290 --> 02:27:21,159
evidence of anything that occurred

2851
02:27:21,159 --> 02:27:24,700
prior to annexation and the documents that were reported

2852
02:27:24,700 --> 02:27:25,799
this evening.

2853
02:27:25,799 --> 02:27:28,489
With respect to the land being discussed as a whole versus

2854
02:27:28,489 --> 02:27:30,280
the specific building, again,

2855
02:27:30,280 --> 02:27:33,280
the information provided to staff for the original request

2856
02:27:33,280 --> 02:27:34,760
as well as the determination

2857
02:27:34,760 --> 02:27:37,159
letter and all of the information provided with this appeal

2858
02:27:37,159 --> 02:27:38,280
are specific to building

2859
02:27:38,280 --> 02:27:39,280
910.

2860
02:27:39,280 --> 02:27:41,020
Staff had no information regarding the other three

2861
02:27:41,020 --> 02:27:42,280
buildings on which to make any sort

2862
02:27:42,280 --> 02:27:43,280
of determination.

2863
02:27:43,280 --> 02:27:47,840
So we cannot speak to anything regarding the use of those

2864
02:27:47,840 --> 02:27:49,559
three buildings.

2865
02:27:49,559 --> 02:27:52,819
Regarding the lease of the buildings, again, the affidavit,

2866
02:27:52,819 --> 02:27:54,479
if you look at what was provided

2867
02:27:54,479 --> 02:27:57,270
in your backup, the affidavit of the owner stated that the

2868
02:27:57,270 --> 02:27:58,840
lease of two of the buildings,

2869
02:27:58,840 --> 02:28:01,239
not the subject building, predated their ownership.

2870
02:28:01,239 --> 02:28:04,100
However, they acknowledged that the lease of building 910

2871
02:28:04,100 --> 02:28:05,319
began on a month-to-month

2872
02:28:05,319 --> 02:28:06,319
basis in 2023.

2873
02:28:06,319 --> 02:28:09,200
Again, they took ownership in 2021.

2874
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:13,280
So that occurred under the current ownership.

2875
02:28:13,280 --> 02:28:16,540
With respect to the electric, again, the electricity is

2876
02:28:16,540 --> 02:28:20,000
required for a building to be legally occupied.

2877
02:28:20,000 --> 02:28:22,299
Those buildings do have electricity run to them and had

2878
02:28:22,299 --> 02:28:23,559
electricity through the city

2879
02:28:23,559 --> 02:28:26,450
provided through April of 2021, which was again after the

2880
02:28:26,450 --> 02:28:27,760
current owner purchased the

2881
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:30,600
property in February of 2021.

2882
02:28:30,600 --> 02:28:32,620
So it was sometime since this owner has purchased it that

2883
02:28:32,620 --> 02:28:34,040
electricity has been cut off to those

2884
02:28:34,040 --> 02:28:35,040
buildings.

2885
02:28:35,040 --> 02:28:37,290
But a generator would not be sufficient for someone to

2886
02:28:37,290 --> 02:28:38,040
obtain a seat.

2887
02:28:38,040 --> 02:28:42,079
You have to have proper electricity to your building.

2888
02:28:42,079 --> 02:28:44,809
Regarding the rent payments and the discussion of that, I

2889
02:28:44,809 --> 02:28:46,440
just wanted to point out that rent

2890
02:28:46,440 --> 02:28:49,239
payment alone would not substantiate a use of the building.

2891
02:28:49,239 --> 02:28:51,170
That does not provide us any evidence as to what was

2892
02:28:51,170 --> 02:28:52,600
occurring within the building for

2893
02:28:52,600 --> 02:28:53,600
which the payment was made.

2894
02:28:53,600 --> 02:28:56,979
Again, the important thing here is we have no evidence of

2895
02:28:56,979 --> 02:28:58,760
any use having continuously

2896
02:28:58,760 --> 02:29:01,760
occurred since prior to annexation.

2897
02:29:01,760 --> 02:29:04,360
So establishment, finding that there is now a non-perform

2898
02:29:04,360 --> 02:29:05,799
ing right would essentially be

2899
02:29:05,799 --> 02:29:09,620
establishing the illegal use of the property because we do

2900
02:29:09,620 --> 02:29:11,600
not have that use history.

2901
02:29:11,600 --> 02:29:14,149
And then finally, I wanted to address the assertion that

2902
02:29:14,149 --> 02:29:15,360
they haven't applied for a

2903
02:29:15,360 --> 02:29:18,079
zoning because that would take two years.

2904
02:29:18,079 --> 02:29:20,389
The average zoning application for a straight zoning would

2905
02:29:20,389 --> 02:29:21,559
take no more than three to six

2906
02:29:21,559 --> 02:29:24,280
months and would both remedy the issue of their property

2907
02:29:24,280 --> 02:29:25,879
not having sufficient acreage

2908
02:29:25,879 --> 02:29:28,879
for the current zoning and the use of the building.

2909
02:29:28,879 --> 02:29:33,879
I'm happy to answer any other questions you all may have.

2910
02:29:33,879 --> 02:29:34,879
Sharon?

2911
02:29:34,879 --> 02:29:38,879
Yeah, sorry, I guess I forgot to report.

2912
02:29:38,879 --> 02:29:40,879
Does the Board members have any questions for us?

2913
02:29:40,879 --> 02:29:41,879
That's okay.

2914
02:29:41,879 --> 02:29:47,090
I'm sorry, can you clarify when electricity stopped being

2915
02:29:47,090 --> 02:29:47,879
used?

2916
02:29:47,879 --> 02:29:50,879
Did you say it was in 2021?

2917
02:29:50,879 --> 02:29:52,879
The total of 2021 is the record.

2918
02:29:52,879 --> 02:29:56,879
And the purchase by the new owner was in 23?

2919
02:29:56,879 --> 02:29:59,879
No, it was in February 2021.

2920
02:29:59,879 --> 02:30:02,739
The 2023 date is when they asserted in their affidavit that

2921
02:30:02,739 --> 02:30:04,879
Esparza began occupying building

2922
02:30:04,879 --> 02:30:06,879
910 on the last month basis.

2923
02:30:06,879 --> 02:30:07,879
Thank you.

2924
02:30:07,879 --> 02:30:08,879
Thank you.

2925
02:30:08,879 --> 02:30:09,879
Question.

2926
02:30:09,879 --> 02:30:13,879
So there was use of electricity beforehand?

2927
02:30:13,879 --> 02:30:15,879
Like there was utility bills before?

2928
02:30:15,879 --> 02:30:17,879
Correct, there were utility bills.

2929
02:30:17,879 --> 02:30:20,879
I have to look back at my slides, I believe from 2011 until

2930
02:30:20,879 --> 02:30:22,879
April 2021 there was continuous

2931
02:30:22,879 --> 02:30:23,879
electricity.

2932
02:30:23,879 --> 02:30:24,879
Okay.

2933
02:30:24,879 --> 02:30:31,409
And if, what is the, I guess, to establish use, are there

2934
02:30:31,409 --> 02:30:37,879
any besides CO and alternatives

2935
02:30:37,879 --> 02:30:41,149
like, I mean, especially if you newly annex something, are

2936
02:30:41,149 --> 02:30:42,879
there alternatives to provide

2937
02:30:42,879 --> 02:30:47,149
the city the info needed to prove, I guess, usage or occup

2938
02:30:47,149 --> 02:30:47,879
ancy?

2939
02:30:47,879 --> 02:30:49,879
I'm sure we are willing to accept any and all evidence.

2940
02:30:49,879 --> 02:30:52,719
There are some examples listed on our zoning verification

2941
02:30:52,719 --> 02:30:54,879
application related to non-conformities

2942
02:30:54,879 --> 02:30:57,440
that includes things such as photographic evidence, you

2943
02:30:57,440 --> 02:30:59,879
know, of signs on the building, or in some

2944
02:30:59,879 --> 02:31:02,829
cases we've accepted like here's proof of auto lifts with a

2945
02:31:02,829 --> 02:31:04,879
car on the inside of the

2946
02:31:04,879 --> 02:31:07,170
building to prove that there was an automotive use

2947
02:31:07,170 --> 02:31:07,879
occurring.

2948
02:31:07,879 --> 02:31:11,030
So electric accounts with the company's name on them, le

2949
02:31:11,030 --> 02:31:12,879
ases, anything of that sort.

2950
02:31:12,879 --> 02:31:18,500
We're happy to look at any evidence that someone can

2951
02:31:18,500 --> 02:31:19,879
provide.

2952
02:31:19,879 --> 02:31:25,899
Are there any other additional questions or which one's

2953
02:31:25,899 --> 02:31:26,879
safe?

2954
02:31:26,879 --> 02:31:27,879
Okay.

2955
02:31:27,879 --> 02:31:28,879
Okay, none.

2956
02:31:28,879 --> 02:31:30,879
Thank you for coming up again.

2957
02:31:30,879 --> 02:31:33,239
Does the appellant/applicant have any rebuttal comments

2958
02:31:33,239 --> 02:31:34,879
that could follow the statements?

2959
02:31:34,879 --> 02:31:37,879
No.

2960
02:31:37,879 --> 02:31:40,879
Okay.

2961
02:31:40,879 --> 02:31:45,879
No worries.

2962
02:31:45,879 --> 02:31:52,969
Do any board members have any additional questions for

2963
02:31:52,969 --> 02:31:56,879
openness to the appellant?

2964
02:31:56,879 --> 02:31:57,879
Okay, same none.

2965
02:31:57,879 --> 02:32:01,170
Now that the applicant and the city have presented their

2966
02:32:01,170 --> 02:32:03,879
testimony, evidence, and arguments,

2967
02:32:03,879 --> 02:32:11,290
this is a public hearing, is there anyone who wishes to

2968
02:32:11,290 --> 02:32:15,879
speak in support of the appeal?

2969
02:32:15,879 --> 02:32:23,350
Is there anyone who wishes to speak in opposition to the

2970
02:32:23,350 --> 02:32:24,879
appeal?

2971
02:32:24,879 --> 02:32:30,780
After hearing all the testimony, evidence, and arguments,

2972
02:32:30,780 --> 02:32:33,879
questions and answers, as well

2973
02:32:33,879 --> 02:32:36,530
as hearing from all those desiring to speak in support and

2974
02:32:36,530 --> 02:32:37,879
in opposition to the appeal,

2975
02:32:37,879 --> 02:32:42,239
I will entertain further questions from the board for any

2976
02:32:42,239 --> 02:32:44,879
of the parties or the speakers.

2977
02:32:44,879 --> 02:32:45,879
Yes.

2978
02:32:45,879 --> 02:32:46,879
Yes.

2979
02:32:46,879 --> 02:32:47,879
So.

2980
02:32:47,879 --> 02:32:48,879
And who is it addressed to?

2981
02:32:48,879 --> 02:32:54,100
Actually, this is more, I guess, a process question of more

2982
02:32:54,100 --> 02:32:55,879
of what they have.

2983
02:32:55,879 --> 02:33:02,520
They said if we deny, they asked for a delay in the

2984
02:33:02,520 --> 02:33:04,879
designation.

2985
02:33:04,879 --> 02:33:08,879
What is it?

2986
02:33:08,879 --> 02:33:10,879
Like it was.

2987
02:33:10,879 --> 02:33:12,879
A firm reverse amend.

2988
02:33:12,879 --> 02:33:14,879
Yeah, of like the opposite.

2989
02:33:14,879 --> 02:33:18,700
The request was that their request for the delay of

2990
02:33:18,700 --> 02:33:21,879
determination of discontinuance would

2991
02:33:21,879 --> 02:33:23,879
require that you find there are not conformal rights.

2992
02:33:23,879 --> 02:33:24,879
Okay.

2993
02:33:24,879 --> 02:33:25,879
To be continued for that additional year.

2994
02:33:25,879 --> 02:33:26,879
Okay.

2995
02:33:26,879 --> 02:33:27,879
Okay.

2996
02:33:27,879 --> 02:33:28,879
Not sure if that helps clarify.

2997
02:33:28,879 --> 02:33:29,879
No, it does.

2998
02:33:29,879 --> 02:33:32,879
It does what I plan.

2999
02:33:32,879 --> 02:33:33,879
Yeah.

3000
02:33:33,879 --> 02:33:41,690
Are there any additional questions for any parties involved

3001
02:33:41,690 --> 02:33:43,879
in the matter?

3002
02:33:43,879 --> 02:33:44,879
Okay.

3003
02:33:44,879 --> 02:33:47,620
Once this hearing is closed, there will be no more evidence

3004
02:33:47,620 --> 02:33:48,879
or testimony provided.

3005
02:33:48,879 --> 02:33:55,879
This is the last opportunity to ask questions.

3006
02:33:55,879 --> 02:33:59,680
Okay.

3007
02:33:59,680 --> 02:34:01,879
Hearing none, I close the public hearing.

3008
02:34:01,879 --> 02:34:02,879
Next slide.

3009
02:34:02,879 --> 02:34:03,879
Deliberation.

3010
02:34:03,879 --> 02:34:04,879
All right.

3011
02:34:04,879 --> 02:34:09,879
The deliberation is in the second meeting.

3012
02:34:09,879 --> 02:34:10,879
Okay.

3013
02:34:10,879 --> 02:34:11,879
So then.

3014
02:34:11,879 --> 02:34:12,879
Okay.

3015
02:34:12,879 --> 02:34:15,879
Next item on the agenda is concluding items.

3016
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:18,879
Are there any concluding items for tonight?

3017
02:34:18,879 --> 02:34:19,879
Okay.

3018
02:34:19,879 --> 02:34:27,420
Hearing no further items, I adjourn the meeting at 8.55 p.m

3019
02:34:27,420 --> 02:34:27,879
.