May 11, 2026 Historic Landmark Commission on 2026-05-11 5:30 PM

All right. Are you guys ready? I'm going to call the meeting to order. I have 5 30 p.m. on what's today? Monday, May 11th. So if you would please stand with me for the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. On the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible. I don't think we have any members in the public for cards that I shake. I don't think so. All right. Our next item is item 3A, number HLC 26-U024. On the agendas, consider the approval of the minutes from April 13th. Can I ask a question? If you're not here for a meeting, is it appropriate to abstain from the minutes? And sometimes we need the forum to make the vote if we don't have enough tips. That probably makes sense for people here to make the motions. All right. Do we have a motion for approval or do we have any changes? Motion to approve. Thank you. All right. All in favor to approve the minutes as written, say aye. Any nays? All right. Motion passes. Item 3B, number HLC 26-01A8. To receive a report and hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding proposed code amendments related to the subchapter 9, definitions of the Ditten Development Code. Thank you, Chair. So, just to give you all a background on this. So, staff is wanting to make some minor updates to our historic preservation related definitions within the Ditten Development Code. We need them to be -- you're going to see if you didn't review already. We need them to be clear and concise definitions just so we can provide better guidance to customers and also just provide better customer service, but also just make sure we're actually being consistent with our code. So, the first one here is our certificate of appropriateness. Currently, it doesn't mention anything about the approval of plans for exterior alterations. So, we wanted to make sure that that was specifically called out. And then also talking about deterioration of structures or features affecting the designated land marker property within a designated historic or conservation district. Because as you all know, it's also -- COAs are both for landmark properties, but they also are for our historic and conservation district properties as well. So, this is going to be an informal discussion. This is basically -- you guys give me your feedback as we go through each definition. If you want to make changes, if you like what staff has, that's fine as well. But this is very informal. It's an open discussion. So, do we like what we're seeing? Do we like what we're reading right now? Good changes you made. I like it that it makes it -- it's more concise. And so -- and I appreciate that. Especially the historic or conservation, right, with exterior issues. So, it's very case-by-case. And we'll take them one at a time. Yes. Yep, one at a time. I was kind of surprised by the removal of deterioration. Not surprised that it's there and clarified. But I don't remember seeing that in my short time here. Did we get many of those requests for COAs for removal of deterioration and that kind of thing? I was going to say the chair can speak more to that just due to her length on the board. But in my time here in the last five years, I've seen it twice. Okay. I think it's necessary. I think we've seen more of people not getting a COA and just demolishing and tearing down without that. So, I think the verbiage is helpful for that because then on the back end, you can't build it back, but you can find them. So I think it's definitely needed. I'm hoping that's a plus for it. If people read that, like, "Oh, you mean I can't do that?" So, yes. Okay. So, the next one is conservation district. As you see, it currently states in the development code, "Any neighborhood or region designated by the City Council as a conservation district." That gives you no background inside as to what an actual conservation district is, what it means, how is it actually legally enforced. So, this might be a little heavy. So, if you all want to pare it down at all, but I gave my best go at it and trying to put it as much in basic layman's terms as to what is a conservation district and then the different regulations that come as part of it. I thought it was a good balance of sustained comprehensive. I can't speak for anyone else, but I think you've heard of that a little while. I know it says, like, "Conservation districts are adopted by City Council." It's kind of buried in there. Should it start with that, at least? I don't know. I kind of like that it starts with the zoning. It's special zoning provisions and development and guidelines, because you have to start there before the City Council can adopt it. I guess maybe it's the second and third sentence. Like, the second sentence refers to an ordinance, and then the next sentence says that it's created by City Council ordinance. So, that feels out of order to me. Is it the term City Council ordinance? That's what kind of got me. So, it says that each conservation district ordinance is unique to the district. Conservation districts are adopted by City Council ordinance. Should it just be by City Council? If I understand it wrong correctly, he's saying that it makes more sense to say where the ordinance comes from before you talk about what the ordinance does. Or at least you shouldn't refer to the ordinance vaguely before you explain where it originates. Even if it just said, "Each conservation district is established by a unique ordinance created by the City Council," or something like that, it would eliminate some of the below-verbiage, but also kind of define it. Basically, more or less flipping sentences two and three as far as the content goes. Maybe a clause, and I'll let you as the editorial expert here have the first swing. "Each conservation district ordinance is unique to the district, which are adopted by City Council." "Conservation districts and the district designation requires..." Yeah, that might make sense. Instead of the comma, "and" are adopted by City Council ordinance. I'm happy with that, too. I'll do it for each of the words. If it's really "and" and "comma," let's go with "and" just because commas and semicolons tend to be so thick. I think we should have more commas. I think we should have more commas. Okay, I'm going to fight about that, too. I'll become a rigid guy. I think that's good. Is there anything else you all feel that needs to be changed, or are we comfortable with this? No, this is good. Next one. "Historical district. Any neighborhood or region designated by City Council as a historic district." Similar setup to "conservation district," obviously. I'm happy to make that adjustment in terms of if you all feel like it's not following the same work. I would make a similar adjustment. I'm not super picky about the exact wording. It is very long. It's not that long. I think it's a good definition, though. That's the balance, right? Its length is because it is trying to be concise, and it's explanatory power. That is definitely offering far more specific guidance. Okay. "Historical landmark commission. What existed previously was the City of Den Historic Landmark Commission." So staff obviously wanted to spell out specifically that the HLC is a quasi-judicial commission that actively seeks opportunities to promote preservation and proactively takes steps to ensure protection. So I have very similar comments, both on this one and on the Historic Preservation Officer. And HPO is actually one I feel stronger about, so we're just going to do one of the two. Let's do it for that one. But I feel like in both cases, it is to the group's advantage, while staying succinct, to cover what we actually do as fully as possible. And I feel like in both cases, there are some things that it might be better for explicitly covered, like specifically for HPO, your community liaison role, the representation of the city at various historic-themed events, and to a certain extent for the HLC, that we also have a more nebulous, more generally looking after the history of the community, doing independent research on projects, things like that. Obviously, that's more than we want to say, but I would like to see, or I think it would be beneficial to see something about those broader roles referenced in each definition. Is that material covered elsewhere, what he's asking about? In the preservation plan, in terms of the powers and duties written under the development code section, that lays out Historic Landmark Commission's power and duties, it's laid out, and then obviously, with the oversight of the preservation plan, it goes into more specifics. Could we reference that in these, so that we don't have to repeat the language? The preservation plan, or? Wherever it defines the specific responsibilities that you were just saying? I think, Haley, are we okay doing references to specific sections? I don't see it very often in definitions, so I just wanted to see. And I always say that because if you ever change one, you have to remember to change the other. So, sometimes having it in one place makes more sense. And also, I always have an expectation that we're actually going to go and chase it down citation like that, as opposed to actually having the verbiage at the bottom. Yeah, I was thinking, so we'll lay it out in the procedures, we're covered, but if you all want to expound upon some of that in the definition. I think we have to look at what's the purpose of changing the definitions. And if the whole purpose is changing for people to understand it better, and I think putting those on we're excited is definitely going to be helpful. That's what we're, that's what our goal is to change it. Because to be this definition doesn't really tell me a whole lot more. Well, then maybe just, maybe just an extra pre sentence that says, other roles and duties are discussed in this document, I mean, just like, or whatever language is in there. Yeah, because I do think it is helpful for it to both reflect. Hey, there's more here. That's where you go find it. And then also, as they mentioned, as a reminder, like if you change it here. Go check it out over here to make sure that there is giant. Okay, so in terms of the Historic Landmark Commission, provide that connection to where it's stated in the powers and duties of HLC, specifically where it calls out some of those examples, but we can also call out some of those examples listed in the powers duties in terms of, I guess, adding another sentence where it says, some of the powers and duties of the HLC may include X, Y, and Z. Just please see DDC section for more information, essentially. Yeah. Okay. I think we're hosting an alternative historic bar tour, right? And bar tours. Yes, yes. We'll have to table that for a house tour. I don't think that was a large table. Perfect. Okay. And then I guess in terms of historic preservation officer, obviously built on that, instead of just saying historic preservation officer. The question what I've seen since I've been here, it seems like, you know, you do a lot of very important liaison efforts that's not necessarily reflected in that definition, as well as some like representation of the city, like the Southridge thing and things like that, that also I don't see as necessarily being entirely explicit or implicit in that definition. I could be missing something. I don't think you're missing anything, but I would suggest, Commissioner Black, that one of the things that we also need to be attentive to is that I know from working on job descriptions of performance improvement plans and things, you start adding more things in there. They become more expected things that then become devaluated. Do you understand what I mean? I see what you're saying. Reaching the complexity in unnecessary ways. Okay. That's kind of what I'm getting at. You've made a great valid point. I think I agree. This definition is not all encompass of her job duties or a job description, but that's not for a definition. So that's how I see it. And I don't think that's meant to put a job description and duties here, just the definition of that. Any additional comments? Maybe a cartoon of a hippo. Okay. So this is a little bit different. Within our DVC Section 410-4, which specifically is talking about the Denton Square District, it does call out contributing building, but it doesn't mention the definitions, which will be the next slide. But concentrating specifically what's in this Section 410-4 for the Denton Square District, staff just wanted to clean it up a little bit in terms of how it's defined currently, and also provide a map because it mentions this lovely National Register Historic District, but there's no map of it anywhere in our Denton Development Code, which makes it rather confusing. So people often don't know what it's being referenced to. So in terms of this, staff wanted to clean it up in terms of a building on a property that is depicted on the map of the Denton County Courthouse National Register District as a contributing property, and then add the map itself. Staff didn't feel that we needed to mention National Register of Historic Places or National Register District twice in there. So any thoughts, ideas? I was very happy with this addition being a visual versus like so. Yes, I'm very visual as well. Okay, perfect. And then adding this new definition to our DVC definition section, Chapter 9, specifically stating what a contributing building is and like making a little bit more broad in terms of what a contributing building is and not specific to this National Register Historic District. This may be too much of a tangent, and it is to shut me down. We can do this another time. But what happens if something in a non-contributing property of historical value happens after the peak, you know, after the peak historical area? Let's say a non-contributing structure in the Oak Hicker District. Right now, some of those houses is in the Cold Fusion. I mean, not happening, but you know, how then does that get factored into whether or not that is a contributing? I mean, something historic has happened there, but it's not during the district's peak period. How is that viewed or reconciled? So are you meaning in terms of expanding the Historic District or changing that period of significance? So, I mean, I'm not necessarily proposing a change to any, I'm more asking how this would work. Basically, the definition, you know, reading this definition made me wonder about a counterfactuality result. Like if a contributing building gets added after? Or if a building is non-contributing and something of historical significance happens after, like, you know, the... Can that make it contributing? Yeah, let someone become contributing, even though it is not present or even though it was not during the district's historic period. You would have to go through a process to change that period of significance for that Historic District to then add it as contributing. Interesting. The first time we use the word district, we should use the proper term, whatever we call it, something district. What do we call the district of which? A historic district or a conservation district? Historic district. We should put that there, I think, right? Because it needs to be understood just by reading the definition of what it's talking about. So staff wanted to make sure it was all encompassing because when you talk about a contributing building, you have one both in local and in national. Can we put that? Yeah, whatever. Otherwise, it's just like, what's the district? Of course. Okay. Yeah, that's a good point. Anything else? Okay, so next steps, I will take you all's edits. I will make this update to the definitions and then it will go to the Planning and Zoning Commission. If you can see it go, send a regard. Moving on to item 4AHLC26-021 to receive a report held a discussion against staff direction on the Historic Landmark Commission request for local historic designation of eligible historic property. Does anybody have a property? I'm going to share a document with you on 308 Oak Street that has been submitted. Okay, where? Where you're at? Oak Street, Drafton and Cocktail Park. Anything else? We're good? Okay, next item 4B C26-022 hold a discussion regarding the next steps for the designation Research Subcommittee and the Committee Outreach Subcommittee to assist in the establishment of a potential new local historic district generally located along North Elm Street and North Locust Street corridors between West McKinney Street and West University, US 380. I've been really bogged down with work, so I haven't gotten much done, but I did spend two hours today recording and creating essays. I continued working on the 1939 City Directory and I keep finding what looks to be widows to me, lots of widows, lots of Mrs. with no man with the same last name. I'm going to keep, I'm going to keep kind of at that and try to get past that in the next month or so. So, I also had things going on this month so I pushed two of my interviews back with the descendants of the spinning wheels people and with the people that own the sleeping lizards that used to be the, like, multiple drive ins and burger restaurants and things like that. And then in turn had my own interview with my cocker and push back. So, what I've been doing also like John, I have been going through city directories, I actually somehow wound up owning several from like the late 70s to early 90s. And as near as I can tell by that point in time, the widow phenomenon has disappeared. But, you know, it does seem like that, like the motor mile or your motor block or whatever, that concentration of cardio ships is still going as far as the early 70s. And I'm interested in some stories there and the thing that keeps dancing right out of my grasp is I can find multiple references to a jailbreak at the city jail that used to be, you know, on the 300 block or 400 block of Sycamore, sorry. Yeah, yeah. But I cannot find any details, and it seems like a jailbreak would be something of a substantial interest, but I know where I can find that. Oh, do you? Okay. There's a book called memories of jailbreak. It's actually city sheriffs. So what it is, it's a reminiscences book by city sheriffs living during the 1940s 50s, I believe. Okay. During the same period that they actually took that great shot that has like five of them. You know, and, and they were the survivors. Anyway, they collected narratives of like things that were going on. They had lots of interesting reminiscences about things that happened. So I bet I know when you're talking. Okay. And you know where that jail was, right? Yes. Okay. It's a city always across the street. So, oh, so in that case, it's not actually in our building Stokes. No, no, no, right over here, actually. So, okay. No, no. So, I heard something you did. Did you hear Hillary? Yes. Yeah, we can't, we can't have windows added because the walls are too thick. But the old ones that were down there, the last hanging last people hanging where that wall is over there right behind versus. Yeah. Well, I said payroll, not parole. So I didn't mean to see. I will tell you about that within the last month, there have been more city directories that have been added to their digital catalog. I saw them. Yes, they got the email. And genealogists say, hey, exciting news for nerds. So, the former fire department on. I think it's on because they came before us to approve some things before. So I wonder if they would be interested. It was a fire. Yes. They have a clock on their wall. Well, thank you, gentlemen, for the work. Appreciate that. That's okay. Yes, I know this was supposed to come on the May agenda. May has been wild. So let's just put it that way. It's been a lot in the last two weeks. So, unfortunately, that has been moved to June. So my apologies. And then in terms of the HLC FAQ and historic processes document, I did send that out. I don't I didn't get any emails back from anyone individually having any comments or anything. So I'm assuming that's good until you all want to bring it forward on the matrix saying you want updates to X, Y, and Z. And then obviously we have our discussion of the possible historic destination for the corridors ongoing as well as incentivizing historic preservation ongoing slash positive moment. But is there anything that you all want to add to the matrix? In the meantime. Oh, and then I guess just let you all know that the next meeting students just a reminder. I have a question thought I'm going to think out loud and then you'll tell me I'm crazy. And so I understand that T.W. has been buying some properties around T.W. and a lot of them look to be if they could be historic homes. And from my understanding, I do not know this for true. So I'm saying just from what I understand, they're doing that because they need housing and things and I don't think they have plans right now to tear down or anything like that. I was excited to know that they're the ones buying them because they keep everything looking so fantastic. So I just didn't know if they could make those decisions if we could. I would just love to know how they do that. I mean, is that a situation where, you know, we should be neighborly and proactively reach out saying how lovely that you bought these historic homes. We stand ready to assist you in any way possible and maintaining their historic character. Yes, because we can't. Once they buy them there from what I understand, it's a state entity, but it would be nice to be neighborly. That's kind of what I thought. We have no jurisdiction, that kind of thing. But I mean, I applaud them for doing that. Just the thought, I don't even know what I'm asking. Are there properties in the Belle Avenue Historic District? None of those. Well, they may have one. Right, they have that. But these that they're purchasing now. They're down off, gosh, I know the name of that street, the big yellow house they purchased. You know what I'm talking about? It's a side street. It's on Texas. I think it is. Or Congress. So on the southern part, not along University or whatever it's already about. There was, I'm recalling in my early days, this commission, we sent an invitation to have a discussion about a couple of buildings there, and it was declined. Famously, not that empty. Having your restriction of what they do is proper. So I'm just tempering expectations. Expectations are timbered, but it seems like, you know, it doesn't hurt. So I guess in terms of the, is it necessarily a matrix site? I'm trying to think about in my head, is this a matrix site? Or is this more just like, we should be reach out or someone should reach out as one of the commissioners and just say, Hey, just wanted to share some information if you're ever interested. I guess I just want to make sure that I'm not like, don't not bring it back for you all. Then you're like, Cameron, step back. I don't know. This is for your to do list. Who would we talk to? And do you have any idea who's department would be at T.W.U.? I don't know. I'll find out. Okay. I'm a very social creature. I do lots of things at T.W.U. events. I would not have any problem with that. There you go. Oh, yeah. You just heard it. We just hearsay or wonder who actually knows. I'll find out. And then just to come back real quick, I know summer gets really busy for everyone. There's summer vacation. People are traveling. So if you know any, if you're traveling on the 8th or June 8th, July 13th or August 10th, if you don't mind just letting us know in advance just so that, you know, either can cancel. If we know we're not going to have quorum off the bat or anything like that, that would just be great for staff. It would be much appreciated. Any other business. Preservation month. I can bring it up. I was going to talk about the ones that are coming up this week, but I will bring up. So we are now. Which one are you specifically looking for? Okay. Well, I guess it's part of my complete items. So just wanted to give everyone a reminder. We have the old Alton Cemetery tour tomorrow starting at 6 p.m. Would love to see you all there. It might be a little muddy. So just wear the proper shoes, please. And then on Friday, starting at 2 p.m., we have our fine arts theater, past, present and future. This is going to include a lecture as well as tour. So that would be great as well. We also have our introduction to the legacy lab this Saturday from 10 to 11 a.m. at Emily Fowler. As of this morning, we still had eight spots open out of 15, but it really is just learning how to do digital archiving and preservation of your documents. And it's free to the public. We just it's not a huge space. So we're just wanting a maximum of 15. But like I said, there's still eight spots available and it's only an hour. So you should do it. In terms of the historic bar tour, I will pass it over to Commissioner Tree because I know he's a part of that. But that starts at 1 p.m. Whoa, 1 p.m. in downtown. That's right. So we're doing it. I just had to revise the script today based on a couple of location changes. But so it's going to happen. I have departures every 30 minutes. So it begins at 1 p.m. until 4 p.m. You guys can come walk along. No problemo. And I'll be leading on Friday night. I'm going to be leading a preview tour for some of the docents and volunteers to go see the spots and they, you know, they'll be able to sip and stroll is what we're going to call it on Friday evening in order to hear some of the stuff that's been accumulated, used, unused, and otherwise. Random rambling. So you're all welcome. Thank you. And then next Tuesday, just a reminder is the proclamation. It's not online, but it's at 630 p.m. at City Council on the 19th. We have the preservation month proclamation. We can talk about some of the successes that we've seen so far and some of the attendance that we've seen, which is pretty good. It's pretty solid so far. And then also talk about the last two events, which are the Denton Vintage Short Film Fest, which is kind of where you all are being spotlighted. And that's remember is on May 29th, starting at 630 p.m. But I think we discussed getting there around 5, 515, just so that you all can kind of greet folks as they come in and talk a little bit about what you all do. And I am working on that reel to have playing as people are coming in and so they're not just staring at a wall. And then the last event is May 30th, that next day from 10 to 2 p.m., which is the Spring Jubilee in Flower Mound. And so that's Denton revealed. I did want to give an update. I know this was a couple months ago regarding the Southridge sign that the consultants found. We did go out there. The library went out there. We took a lot of photos. We had hoped to save one piece, the most intact piece of the signage. Unfortunately, the root system has completely gotten to the bottom of it. So as we started trying to kind of get it out, it just started disintegrating. So we got lots of good photos and the property owner was able to give us some photos from a couple of years back and that he was willing to share with us. So the library is going to try and do something to kind of archive it and get that on the books. But unfortunately, you're a little bit. We have like original photos of it. Not that we've been able to find the library. Yeah. I would say Special Collections team over there. Yeah. Special Collections team is definitely trying to find something and we kind of they said it might take a while, but we're hoping we can find something. But it would definitely would be neat to find and have some an artist or someone recreated. My updates. Sorry, have anyone else had updates? Any other updates? All right, then I will say we are adjourned at 6 o' 8 p.m.