WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.800 It is Monday, April 13th, 2026. 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:15.560 It is 5.31 p.m. and we are having a special call meeting 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:18.040 at the Board of Ethics. 00:00:18.040 --> 00:00:21.640 I'm going to begin with presentations from the public 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:24.920 and my understanding is we don't have any. 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:29.200 So we will skip to item two, items for consideration. 00:00:29.200 --> 00:00:35.400 So item A, BOE 26-006, receive nominations 00:00:35.400 --> 00:00:38.960 and hold an election of a Chair in question. 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:43.440 Open for nominations. 00:00:43.440 --> 00:00:45.800 I guess we'll take Chair first. 00:00:45.800 --> 00:00:52.320 >> Are there any requirements on this per term? 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:56.560 >> I don't believe, I mean you have to be a member of the Board, 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:59.440 but other than that I don't believe there are certain 00:00:59.440 --> 00:00:59.960 requirements. 00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:03.400 >> Would you be available, Justin? 00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:04.320 >> For Chair? 00:01:04.320 --> 00:01:05.040 >> Yeah. 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:08.560 >> I can be, do you want to do it again? 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:09.440 >> I would love to do it again. 00:01:09.440 --> 00:01:10.640 >> Oh, I thought you were stepping down, 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:11.480 that's why you said that. 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:13.320 If you're not stepping down then we'll just keep. 00:01:13.320 --> 00:01:14.560 >> I would love to do it, yeah. 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:17.920 >> Okay, then I nominate Annette to continue. 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:20.600 >> Okay, any other nominations? 00:01:20.600 --> 00:01:21.480 >> I'll second that. 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:22.400 >> Okay. 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:26.400 >> And then I will go ahead and I will nominate Justin. 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:27.120 >> For Vice Chair. 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:28.200 >> Wait, let's vote on. 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:29.600 >> Oh, we can go voting first. 00:01:29.600 --> 00:01:31.880 >> We're closing nominations for Chair. 00:01:31.880 --> 00:01:35.880 So Annette Ramsey is nominating for Chair, all in favor? 00:01:35.880 --> 00:01:36.720 >> Aye. 00:01:36.720 --> 00:01:37.520 >> Aye. 00:01:37.520 --> 00:01:40.920 >> It passes unanimously. 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:43.720 Okay, we move on to Vice Chair. 00:01:43.720 --> 00:01:46.560 >> I will nominate Justin. 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:47.840 >> I second. 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:51.880 >> Okay, Justin is nominating for Vice Chair. 00:01:51.880 --> 00:01:52.800 >> Aye. 00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:54.920 >> In favor? 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:55.440 >> Aye. 00:01:55.440 --> 00:01:55.960 >> Aye. 00:01:55.960 --> 00:01:58.760 >> Passes unanimously. 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:03.320 So Justin public is the Vice Chair. 00:02:03.320 --> 00:02:09.680 So item B, BOE 26-007, consider the approval of minutes 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:18.960 for June 2nd, July 14th, and February 9th, 2026 meeting. 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:25.520 So June 2nd, I want to move approval of it with one, 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:28.160 there's, on the fourth paragraph, 00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:31.680 found that it should be found. 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:37.680 And so all in favor, does anybody else have any changes? 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:44.760 >> So you can, minutes can be handled kind of special. 00:02:44.760 --> 00:02:46.800 So you can open up to people. 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:48.960 You have, you kind of say do you have any changes 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:51.320 or then people can offer changes. 00:02:51.320 --> 00:02:51.720 >> Okay. 00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:53.760 >> And you can take a motion to approve with the changes 00:02:53.760 --> 00:02:54.400 that have been offered. 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:56.040 For all of them at the same time. 00:02:56.040 --> 00:02:57.040 Okay, cool. 00:02:57.040 --> 00:02:59.040 >> So move on the floor for changes. 00:02:59.040 --> 00:03:01.960 >> Any other changes on June 2nd? 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:06.960 >> There is a, Kenneth's name is spelled wrong on page one. 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:11.640 >> Take the E off the end of his name. 00:03:11.640 --> 00:03:17.360 Okay, any other changes for June 2nd? 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:17.520 >> No. 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.520 >> Okay, any changes for July 14th? 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:24.880 >> I didn't see any. 00:03:24.880 --> 00:03:28.280 >> What about changes for November 10th? 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:32.320 >> I had no changes for that one. 00:03:32.320 --> 00:03:39.960 >> Okay, so February 9th, draft minutes, any changes to that? 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:48.000 >> That was the one we canceled, right? 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.240 >> Does there have to be minutes for that? 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:52.280 >> Does there have to be minutes? 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.840 >> Okay, yes. 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:57.120 >> Okay. 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:58.280 >> Nice note. 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:00.720 >> Says that we canceled. 00:04:00.720 --> 00:04:05.280 Okay, so all in favor of the proposal. 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:07.960 >> So now take a motion on accepting them 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:09.800 with the changes if you like. 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.200 >> I move that we accept the minutes, 00:04:13.200 --> 00:04:17.160 including the changes mentioned in the second [inaudible] 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:22.480 >> Okay, all in favor of accepting the minutes 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:26.280 with the changes, passes unanimously. 00:04:26.280 --> 00:04:35.000 Okay, onto item C, BOE 2026-008, hold a discussion 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:39.200 and consider the adoption of the 2026 meeting schedule. 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:44.240 So basically the question is should we meet monthly 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:47.240 or should we meet bimonthly? 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:55.080 So what are your thoughts on this? 00:04:55.080 --> 00:05:00.520 >> I mean, we've had trouble getting a quorum for bimonthly, 00:05:00.520 --> 00:05:04.880 so I think going to monthly would be a challenge. 00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:08.560 And I would like to stick to bimonthly, 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:12.120 unless there's some reason why we should change. 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:15.560 >> Anybody have any concerns about going to bimonthly? 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.000 >> Well, bimonthly would be better than monthly. 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:22.360 Do we want to consider quarterly meetings, or just -- 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:23.680 >> Let's start with bimonthly. 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.520 >> Start -- okay, start gradually. 00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:29.240 >> As chair, I can always call a meeting off. 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:29.640 >> Okay. 00:05:29.640 --> 00:05:32.000 >> So I have -- 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:33.160 >> It's bimonthly. 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:35.360 >> So I know my rights. 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:44.240 So okay, so who wants to make a motion about meeting bimonthly? 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:45.040 >> I will. 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:48.760 I move that we adopt the bimonthly meeting schedule 00:05:48.760 --> 00:05:51.080 on the agenda information sheet. 00:05:51.080 --> 00:05:54.720 >> Okay. So the next meeting would be June 8th. 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:56.160 >> I second that. 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:58.960 >> Okay. All in favor? 00:05:58.960 --> 00:05:59.320 >> Aye. 00:05:59.320 --> 00:06:00.320 >> Aye. 00:06:00.320 --> 00:06:03.680 >> Passes unanimously. 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:09.480 >> Okay. So this next item is one that I wanted to do. 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:11.840 We're kind of moving into our season 00:06:11.840 --> 00:06:15.640 when we've had the most complaints in the past. 00:06:15.640 --> 00:06:21.000 So I thought that we needed to have like a little mock trial, 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:24.840 and Madison was kind enough to come up with a couple 00:06:24.840 --> 00:06:27.160 of mock trial complaints. 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:27.600 So -- 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:28.960 >> It was Sarah. 00:06:28.960 --> 00:06:29.760 >> Oh, Sarah. 00:06:29.760 --> 00:06:29.920 >> Yes. 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:30.720 >> Thank you, Sarah. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:32.200 Nice job. 00:06:32.200 --> 00:06:38.840 And she did a great job of getting us the, you know, packet. 00:06:38.840 --> 00:06:44.160 So which one would you recommend that we look at? 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.400 >> I think since we kind of talked about the first -- 00:06:47.400 --> 00:06:52.040 example number one is maybe a little bit less complicated. 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:53.680 >> Is that Henry Thomas? 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:54.800 >> That's Kate. 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:56.400 >> Kate Smith is the complainant. 00:06:56.400 --> 00:07:03.960 >> Okay. Okay. So what we're going to do is we're going 00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:09.880 to pretend that we are a hearing board, 00:07:09.880 --> 00:07:14.280 and we have four people instead of three. 00:07:14.280 --> 00:07:15.760 I guess that would be fine. 00:07:15.760 --> 00:07:20.400 >> Yeah. So we could -- the original idea was we'll have a -- 00:07:20.400 --> 00:07:21.640 we'll have the two complaints. 00:07:21.640 --> 00:07:24.960 We'll have two preliminary panels basically for each 00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:27.160 of the preliminary assessments started, 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.840 and then we have the ethics hearing all together. 00:07:30.840 --> 00:07:32.200 We want to just do one. 00:07:32.200 --> 00:07:35.600 You could have a preliminary assessment with just three of y'all, 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:37.200 or I think y'all have all done it. 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:40.480 So I don't know if you want to do that part or just do -- 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.280 run through kind of the ethics complaint hearing process. 00:07:43.280 --> 00:07:47.160 So that would be -- whatever is your preference really. 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.240 >> What's your preference? 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.560 >> I'm going to start with the first one. 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:01.560 >> I was thinking we could maybe do one today, 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.480 and since we don't have everybody here, maybe -- 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:05.200 >> That's a good idea. 00:08:05.200 --> 00:08:07.080 >> -- maybe do the other one at the next meeting. 00:08:07.080 --> 00:08:13.600 So we'll go with -- we'll start on Kate right now. 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:21.800 So I guess if you could pull up the procedures. 00:08:23.400 --> 00:08:27.320 >> Yes. So any hearing -- there would be three of us here. 00:08:27.320 --> 00:08:37.200 This would be the initial one to determine if we need 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.600 to take it to the full board. 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:41.920 So -- 00:08:41.920 --> 00:08:49.320 >> This is the rules and procedure 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.880 for the preliminary assessment. 00:08:51.880 --> 00:08:53.760 >> Okay. 00:08:53.760 --> 00:08:59.080 >> The most important piece here is to go over the basis. 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:05.320 >> Yeah. So in the beginning the body would elect a chair 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:11.320 for the hearing, and the respondent would be here. 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.000 They would usually be sitting over in the -- 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:15.440 >> They're not required to be here. 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:17.400 >> They're not required, yeah. 00:09:17.400 --> 00:09:19.240 But normally they are here. 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:27.000 And the person who complained is required to be here. 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:28.280 >> Not for the preliminary assessment. 00:09:28.280 --> 00:09:29.000 >> Okay. 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.000 >> Okay. 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:34.600 >> Yeah. Usually they're not allowed to speak generally. 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:38.600 It actually says that here in the rules, no public comments 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:40.600 or testimony will be accepted. 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:42.960 The purpose of the preliminary assessment is really just 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:48.520 to read the complaint as it's written, assume that it's true, 00:09:48.520 --> 00:09:52.400 and if it was true, right, based on that assumption, 00:09:52.400 --> 00:09:55.200 would the facts as presented be a violation 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:56.520 of the ethics ordinance? 00:09:56.520 --> 00:09:58.760 >> Okay. So I'm going to go ahead and read this out loud. 00:09:58.760 --> 00:09:59.720 >> Sure. 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:06.680 >> So Kate Smith is the complaint -- 00:10:06.680 --> 00:10:08.680 the accused, I guess. 00:10:08.680 --> 00:10:09.360 >> The complainant. 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:10.960 >> The complainant, okay. 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:16.960 So they are complaining against John R. Matthews, 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:20.640 who's a member of the Zoning Board of Adjustment. 00:10:20.640 --> 00:10:28.280 And so they believe that Section 2-273, 00:10:28.280 --> 00:10:31.440 outside employment, was one of the issues 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:37.320 in the otherish 2-273, improper influence. 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.720 From October 15, 2025 through January 10, 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:47.000 2026, John Matthews accepted paid consulting with Lakeside 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.800 Properties LLC, a local real estate firm 00:10:50.800 --> 00:10:52.880 that regularly seeks zoning variances 00:10:52.880 --> 00:10:54.640 from the city of Denton. 00:10:54.640 --> 00:10:59.520 On January 26, John voted for a Lakeside Properties variance 00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:04.480 request that he provided consulting services for. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:08.680 John can be seen voting on item C during the January 26, 00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:13.360 2026 meeting, which was submitted by Lakeside Properties, 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:15.520 and it has a link. 00:11:15.520 --> 00:11:19.160 Payment records from Lakeside show consulting fees paid 00:11:19.160 --> 00:11:26.560 to John in December 2025 and January 2026 for $10,000. 00:11:26.560 --> 00:11:30.040 Lakeside's variance request includes language recommended 00:11:30.040 --> 00:11:34.680 by John in the attached consulting report. 00:11:34.680 --> 00:11:41.920 So now we deliver it. 00:11:41.920 --> 00:11:45.280 Yeah, so again, the purpose of this 00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:48.200 is to-- obviously, there isn't actually facts attached, 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:49.560 but we're assuming that there are. 00:11:49.560 --> 00:11:52.320 But the preliminary assessment, you 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.200 assume that the complaint on its face, the things that are 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.160 alleged, are true. 00:11:58.160 --> 00:12:01.000 And then if those things are true, 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:02.840 you're assuming that would they actually 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:06.240 be a violation of the ordinance. 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.440 And so we do have in here where they 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:11.280 can indicate which section of the ordinance 00:12:11.280 --> 00:12:13.440 they believe has been violated. 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.680 So the first one that Kate Smith indicated 00:12:16.680 --> 00:12:18.000 was the outside employment. 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:23.840 And so this is the outside employment section. 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:25.640 And so generally, what I would do 00:12:25.640 --> 00:12:29.920 is present this information just to help you all walk through it. 00:12:29.920 --> 00:12:32.040 And then sometimes, Dottie or outside counsel 00:12:32.040 --> 00:12:34.160 might also say, this could also be this. 00:12:34.160 --> 00:12:37.840 And you're allowed to consider other potential violations. 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:41.080 That's just to help the complainant as well as you all 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:43.280 guide your discussion. 00:12:43.280 --> 00:12:48.680 So as you read that section C, outside employment, 00:12:48.680 --> 00:12:50.440 if this is true, what do you think? 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:59.400 On the face of things, it looks like if those things are true, 00:12:59.400 --> 00:13:03.880 but that does look like it could be a proper influence. 00:13:03.880 --> 00:13:06.360 Andrew? 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:11.360 This says it applies to department heads? 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:11.840 Correct. 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.960 So the outside employment section, so the first section 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.760 that she alleged, 2-273(c), outside employment, 00:13:18.760 --> 00:13:21.920 it says it applies only to department heads, which 00:13:21.920 --> 00:13:32.360 is then defined as these people. 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:38.880 So if it's just a member of the zoning board, that doesn't-- 00:13:38.880 --> 00:13:46.480 Right, so 2-273 wouldn't apply to Mr. John Matthews. 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:55.240 But she also alleged the 2-273(e), improper influence. 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:57.440 And then Dottie would probably have you all vote 00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:58.520 on each of these rights. 00:13:58.520 --> 00:14:01.840 She would say, OK, based on what we just discussed, 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.800 2-273(c), outside employment, doesn't seem like it applies. 00:14:05.800 --> 00:14:12.320 So that would be that part of the complaint would be baseless, 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:14.120 because it wouldn't apply to him. 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:16.640 Not actionable, it doesn't apply to him. 00:14:16.640 --> 00:14:18.320 The one section. 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.760 But then this 2-273(e), then we would discuss-- 00:14:22.760 --> 00:14:24.440 So we would take about-- 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:27.400 and I'm assuming, with what we just looked at, 00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:28.600 that it doesn't fit. 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:32.600 So then we move on to the section, second allegation, 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:35.280 basically, which is that what is described 00:14:35.280 --> 00:14:38.400 is improper influence. 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:40.320 And that's what's presented on the screen. 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.680 Is it helpful if I zoom in a little more? 00:14:42.680 --> 00:14:44.600 No, I can read it. 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.120 OK. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:49.000 I don't know that I could, so. 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.480 [LAUGHTER] 00:14:51.480 --> 00:15:06.680 So what do you guys think? 00:15:12.680 --> 00:15:24.760 They're not acting as a representative of the city, 00:15:24.760 --> 00:15:26.720 are they? 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:27.720 Item five. 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:40.200 I mean, I guess-- 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.720 So first off, I think this section 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:44.800 does apply, because it's city official. 00:15:44.800 --> 00:15:48.320 So a board member would be considered city official. 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:49.600 Right. 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.240 I'm thinking two, definitely. 00:15:52.240 --> 00:16:04.720 Oh, so item four would probably apply, too. 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.560 And if you provide consulting, then-- 00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:11.480 and even with the language, then he would need to recuse himself 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.040 from the vote. 00:16:14.040 --> 00:16:17.280 Or he should not provide the consulting in that vote. 00:16:17.280 --> 00:16:21.040 But he can't do both, I wouldn't think. 00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:22.640 To me, it definitely looks like there's 00:16:22.640 --> 00:16:24.640 something actionable in this area. 00:16:24.640 --> 00:16:26.280 Yes, in this section, I would agree. 00:16:26.280 --> 00:16:28.440 Because I'm looking at number three, 00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:33.480 when there's advancing or harming private interest. 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.400 Payment is a private interest. 00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:37.840 So I would say there is. 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:38.960 Absolutely. 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.840 So do you want to take a vote on that? 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:45.520 Dustin, do you have any comments you want to make? 00:16:45.520 --> 00:16:49.520 No, I agree. 00:16:49.520 --> 00:16:56.600 I'm wondering, when I read through the text, 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:01.120 it sounds like also it would be a conflict of interest issue. 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:05.160 But that was not marked on-- 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:07.560 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:17:07.560 --> 00:17:09.880 --or that section of the complaint form. 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:11.800 Yeah, that's OK. 00:17:11.800 --> 00:17:12.360 We can-- 00:17:12.360 --> 00:17:13.520 We can bring that up. 00:17:13.520 --> 00:17:16.720 So we can bring that up and it down. 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:18.720 So I guess for this one, though, I 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:23.320 would agree that the description here, 00:17:23.320 --> 00:17:25.320 and assuming that this is all correct, 00:17:25.320 --> 00:17:28.680 kind of like what we would do in the preliminary panel, 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:35.800 I would agree that this would be an actionable part 00:17:35.800 --> 00:17:37.920 of the complaint. 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:42.000 Should we go ahead and look at conflicts of interest? 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:43.040 Yeah, I would think-- 00:17:43.040 --> 00:17:45.280 What's the rule on that? 00:17:45.280 --> 00:17:48.160 Can you do that in the preliminary panel, 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:50.440 or does it have to be in the-- 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:51.960 In the preliminary assessment, you 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:55.520 are able, as long as you're looking just at the complaint, 00:17:55.520 --> 00:17:57.840 you're just determining if what is in the complaint 00:17:57.840 --> 00:17:59.720 appears to be a violation of the ordinance, 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:04.440 that the check boxes are intended to help the complainant 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:05.120 and the board. 00:18:05.120 --> 00:18:07.120 But it's not a requirement that they-- 00:18:07.120 --> 00:18:07.840 Correct, yeah. 00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:12.080 So even if you were like, well, improper influence doesn't 00:18:12.080 --> 00:18:14.000 really fit, but we, as the board, 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:15.960 have better knowledge of the code, 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.760 we think the facts presented would be conflict of interest, 00:18:19.760 --> 00:18:22.480 you can still advance it to a hearing 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:25.000 based on your understanding that what is presented 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:26.840 would be a violation of the ordinance. 00:18:26.840 --> 00:18:27.840 OK. 00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:29.320 Thank you. 00:18:29.320 --> 00:18:30.800 I'm rusty. 00:18:30.800 --> 00:18:34.080 That's the point of this exercise, right? 00:18:34.080 --> 00:18:36.440 So yeah, so I would definitely-- 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:38.840 so we would take a vote on the improper influence. 00:18:38.840 --> 00:18:44.000 It sounds like we all agree that that fits. 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.000 And then at this point, we would bring up 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.760 that we might also want to look at conflicts of interest. 00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:51.200 I can scroll up to second. 00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:58.200 Reminded of a conflict of interest section. 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:08.560 So that would be-- 00:19:08.560 --> 00:19:18.440 More than, yeah, more than $600. 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:22.000 So then we would deliberate about that, 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.640 and then take a vote on that, I guess. 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:26.440 Right, if you believed it to be actionable. 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:28.440 Remember, at the preliminary assessment panel, 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:31.600 you're just assuming what's written is true, 00:19:31.600 --> 00:19:34.040 and saying, yes, or is it actionable? 00:19:34.040 --> 00:19:37.840 Meaning, it would be a violation of the ordinance 00:19:37.840 --> 00:19:40.160 if it was all provable, right? 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:44.200 And then, if not, or even if it does allege something, 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:46.400 if there's nothing under the violation of the ordinance, 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:47.600 it's baseless, right? 00:19:47.600 --> 00:19:51.880 Part of what makes this easy is that there 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.720 are payment records for this money, 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:56.440 and you would not normally see that. 00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:57.360 Right, right. 00:19:57.360 --> 00:19:59.480 So that's-- I mean, just-- 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:00.880 Well, you're assuming that, right? 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:01.880 So, you know. 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:03.560 Yeah, so-- 00:20:03.560 --> 00:20:06.040 And then that's what the hearing is for, is they would then 00:20:06.040 --> 00:20:10.720 have to produce that evidence, if they hadn't already, right? 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:15.960 So then we would vote on that, and we would inform-- 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:22.560 a letter would then be sent to the accused, 00:20:22.560 --> 00:20:25.240 said, you need to show up for a hearing. 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:27.960 So, yeah, so at this point, it seems 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.840 as though the preliminary assessment, mock preliminary 00:20:30.840 --> 00:20:34.360 assessment, has decided that this complaint example, 01, 00:20:34.360 --> 00:20:36.680 is actionable. 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.320 So at that point, you would inform me. 00:20:39.320 --> 00:20:41.920 You would create a letter that would notify the complainant 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.120 and the respondent about the panel's determination, 00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:49.120 and then when the hearing would be scheduled. 00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:50.840 And then before the hearing is scheduled, 00:20:50.840 --> 00:20:52.600 they would both have the opportunity 00:20:52.600 --> 00:20:56.440 to provide additional evidence, the written documentation, 00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:58.640 and then the complainant, so Kate Smith-- 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.200 not the respondent, but Kate Smith-- 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.400 would be required to attend, or the complaint 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.640 would be dismissed when we got to the actual hearing. 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:12.960 So what I would like to ask is that, at the next meeting, 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.000 why don't we take Kate's complaint 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:17.600 and assume it's a full board? 00:21:17.600 --> 00:21:22.240 So then we'll say, this is what we decided, 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.120 and maybe we could fabricate a letter that 00:21:24.120 --> 00:21:29.400 goes to John Matthews, and then we walk everybody through 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.320 with a full board website. 00:21:31.320 --> 00:21:34.680 So you want to do the mock hearing next time, 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.280 and see what they can do? 00:21:36.280 --> 00:21:39.800 That's fine with me, if that is good with you all. 00:21:39.800 --> 00:21:41.160 Sure. 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.480 Well, just for one thing, I think we've all been through it, 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.960 and I'm hoping that the next time we're here, 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:49.640 we have more people that we can walk through it. 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:54.640 Am I cutting it too short? 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:56.720 Not in my opinion. 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.240 My opinion is not what matters. 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.600 There's a couple of things I wanted to bring up. 00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:06.920 And first of all, there's two issues 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:09.600 that are really important for us to-- 00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:12.360 you've got to remember that when we're having a hearing, 00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:15.040 it's pretty emotional. 00:22:15.040 --> 00:22:21.880 And you can feel for everybody involved. 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.400 And so you're going to want to debrief afterwards, 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.120 and you can't. 00:22:28.120 --> 00:22:32.800 So we can't stand around and talk about it after it's over. 00:22:32.800 --> 00:22:35.640 That would be what the city considers 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:40.640 ex parte communication. 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.040 Ex parte communication is a Latin thing 00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:44.880 that means to the judge. 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:49.680 And honestly, I won't say my opinion 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:51.200 about how the city interprets that, 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.720 but they have a very strict definition of it. 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:57.600 So we cannot be talking about it. 00:22:57.600 --> 00:23:00.080 You can't be talking about it in the room. 00:23:00.080 --> 00:23:03.080 You can't be talking about it in the hallway 00:23:03.080 --> 00:23:05.800 or in the parking lot. 00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:08.560 But the other issue is a willing quorum, 00:23:08.560 --> 00:23:11.040 and that's a different matter. 00:23:11.040 --> 00:23:15.920 It's the state's determination about open meetings. 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:21.880 And so we cannot be talking about cases in the parking lot. 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:25.400 Let's say we have a heated discussion during the meeting. 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:27.000 We go out in the parking lot and decide 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:31.760 to continue discussion in the parking lot, 00:23:31.760 --> 00:23:37.760 trying to convince people that we should see it my way. 00:23:37.760 --> 00:23:40.920 That's a rolling quorum, could be a rolling quorum. 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:42.440 And so we don't want to do that. 00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:45.520 So I want to really stress the importance 00:23:45.520 --> 00:23:48.760 of both of those things. 00:23:48.760 --> 00:23:50.920 We shouldn't be talking to each other. 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:54.640 We can't talk outside of the meeting. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.360 And if I can just clarify a little bit. 00:23:56.360 --> 00:23:58.800 So ex parte communication specifically 00:23:58.800 --> 00:24:01.280 applies to ethics complaints. 00:24:01.280 --> 00:24:03.240 So we receive an ethics complaint. 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:07.520 You might receive it ahead of time, before the meeting, 00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:11.520 because you get the agenda of that information. 00:24:11.520 --> 00:24:14.040 You're not allowed to talk to either the complainant, 00:24:14.040 --> 00:24:17.600 the respondent, or other members of the board 00:24:17.600 --> 00:24:22.840 about the contents, the substance of that complaint. 00:24:22.840 --> 00:24:24.080 The complainant or the respondent 00:24:24.080 --> 00:24:26.480 contacts you and tries to be like, hey, 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:27.760 this is what really happened. 00:24:27.760 --> 00:24:29.080 You're supposed to say, we can't do that. 00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:30.840 That's a violation of the ethics ordinance. 00:24:30.840 --> 00:24:34.280 That is definitely ex parte. 00:24:34.280 --> 00:24:36.480 The Open Meetings Act applies to anything 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.520 that the Board of Ethics is discussing. 00:24:38.520 --> 00:24:42.080 So it includes complaints, but everything else as well. 00:24:42.080 --> 00:24:44.080 So if you're discussing an amendment, 00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:46.720 a closed amendment in the meeting, 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.000 and then you-- like the Chair Renzi was saying, 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:51.400 go outside in the parking lot, and there's 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:53.840 more than three of you there, you 00:24:53.840 --> 00:24:55.720 are what is called a rolling quorum. 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:57.320 Scott, stop me if I'm wrong. 00:24:57.320 --> 00:24:59.360 But that is a violation of the Open Meetings Act. 00:24:59.360 --> 00:25:05.200 Well, if you have four people, then you just have a quorum. 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:08.880 So you're holding a meeting, but it's not a public meeting. 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.040 It's an unauthorized closed meeting. 00:25:11.040 --> 00:25:14.200 The public isn't able to hear you guys discussing 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:15.320 the business of the board. 00:25:15.320 --> 00:25:17.160 So that's a violation of the Meetings Act. 00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:18.920 Rolling quorum would be, you go out 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:23.320 and you keep talking about it, just two of you or three of you. 00:25:23.320 --> 00:25:26.720 That risks a rolling quorum, and the AG 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:28.600 tends to presume there will be a rolling quorum, 00:25:28.600 --> 00:25:30.000 because then all that has to happen 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.200 is one of you has to go talk to another person, 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:36.360 and now a discussion has happened outside of the meeting. 00:25:36.360 --> 00:25:39.560 It's also called a daisy chain quorum, 00:25:39.560 --> 00:25:43.120 but the idea is if you talk to one person 00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:47.080 and that person, one of you, talks to somebody else, 00:25:47.080 --> 00:25:48.840 you've broken that. 00:25:48.840 --> 00:25:52.880 So to be clear, extra clear, one, the quorum issue, 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.360 the Open Meetings Act, is a violation of state law. 00:25:56.360 --> 00:25:59.680 The other is an ethics ordinance violation, 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:01.840 so a violation of the local city law. 00:26:01.840 --> 00:26:04.800 So there are two separate governments involved, 00:26:04.800 --> 00:26:08.480 but the state law covers all of our meetings 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:10.320 with the city hold. 00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:11.720 So if you have a question about that, 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:13.240 I was trying to make sure it's clear. 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:14.600 Yeah, there are two separate issues. 00:26:14.600 --> 00:26:17.100 Yeah. 00:26:17.100 --> 00:26:19.080 I don't think so. 00:26:19.080 --> 00:26:19.580 OK. 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:29.400 Yeah, I would like to just take this into a full board 00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:30.960 format the next time. 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.280 Yeah, the next item is the future meeting, 00:26:33.280 --> 00:26:35.720 so we can certainly put that on the next agenda. 00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:52.320 So the next meeting we just determined 00:26:52.320 --> 00:26:55.560 with is scheduled for June 8, 2010. 00:26:55.560 --> 00:26:59.340 Is that the second Monday? 00:26:59.340 --> 00:27:00.240 That might be the fifth. 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.240 The first is Monday. 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:04.800 Should be the second. 00:27:04.800 --> 00:27:07.320 June 8. 00:27:07.320 --> 00:27:08.560 OK. 00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:12.800 June 8 is the second Monday of June. 00:27:12.800 --> 00:27:21.640 So it will be scheduled for June 8 at 5:30 in this very room. 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:24.800 Something horrible happens. 00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:28.720 And then my understanding, obviously, we'll do the minutes. 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.440 We'll have the future of meeting topics. 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:32.240 And then currently, just on the agenda 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:34.800 is the continued training that we just had. 00:27:34.800 --> 00:27:46.600 Is there anything else that you all 00:27:46.600 --> 00:27:49.160 would like to put on the agenda for the next-- 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:51.120 Not really next meeting. 00:27:51.120 --> 00:27:54.480 We have some ideas for Dublin Road goods. 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:55.480 We're not there. 00:27:55.480 --> 00:28:04.280 Is this item, the guidance line interaction with petitioners, 00:28:04.280 --> 00:28:07.080 is that a new request? 00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:10.200 No, it's been there for a little while. 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:13.720 It was a two minute pitch from Councilmember Beck. 00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:16.920 I can't remember exactly when it happened. 00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:19.320 Maybe last September. 00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:23.280 And if y'all would like to discuss that further, 00:28:23.280 --> 00:28:27.200 I can provide additional details at the next meeting. 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.200 Yeah, I'm not sure what they're getting at. 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:35.880 I think they were looking for just some additional guidance 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:40.000 on trying not to do improper influence. 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.240 If somebody comes to me, what am I about to say? 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.440 What am I not-- what should I not be trying to say? 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:52.720 A little more nitty gritty, maybe, I guess, of that. 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:57.960 Trying to figure out how to avoid [INAUDIBLE] 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:01.520 That has sort of come up lately. 00:29:01.520 --> 00:29:04.400 That has, and I-- 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:05.400 Yeah. 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:05.880 No. 00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:06.840 It's not on our agenda. 00:29:06.840 --> 00:29:10.920 Can't talk about it, but it has come up in the actual situation. 00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:11.640 Yeah. 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.640 So we do, but it's a good thing to talk about. 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:17.240 Sorry. 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:20.680 So we could include that on the June agenda, 00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:23.400 just to see like, well, if we're going 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:26.360 to provide that guidance, maybe what would that look like? 00:29:26.360 --> 00:29:28.280 What would we want to be included? 00:29:28.280 --> 00:29:33.400 What would it cover based on the request that we received? 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:34.400 We can include that. 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:36.400 It seems like there's consensus for that. 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:42.520 Do we have more board members? 00:29:42.520 --> 00:29:45.680 Are the people missing board members anymore? 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:49.400 We have two people that were missing for illness on board. 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:49.880 Yeah. 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:52.960 We have two excused absences, and we have one vacancy currently. 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:53.960 OK. 00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:55.440 So Kenneth and-- 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:55.920 Diane. 00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:57.920 Diane are still on board. 00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:58.760 That's correct. 00:29:58.760 --> 00:30:05.280 Well, it doesn't sound like we have any more business. 00:30:05.280 --> 00:30:05.800 Yeah. 00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:09.000 No other things to add to the June 8th agenda. 00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:13.480 So to double check, the ethics complaint processing freeze 00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:15.240 period, is that going to stay on there? 00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:22.600 Because that is something that is on here as a potential topic? 00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:23.360 It's possible. 00:30:23.360 --> 00:30:25.200 We've had a lot of moves in this agenda, 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.200 so it's possible we just haven't taken that off. 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:30.560 I think you all determined not to do that, but-- 00:30:30.560 --> 00:30:31.400 I don't think so. 00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:33.600 I don't think we ever discussed it. 00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:36.240 I thought we talked about it, but I'll go back to check. 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.640 I very much would like to-- 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:45.600 I'm nervous going into this season, but because-- 00:30:45.600 --> 00:30:47.600 Yeah, I mean, any freeze period would 00:30:47.600 --> 00:30:49.640 have to be put into the ordinance. 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.400 So it wouldn't impact this election cycle, just to be clear. 00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.800 So it is not-- so it's not pressing anyway. 00:30:56.800 --> 00:30:58.640 But we can certainly include it on the June 8th, 00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:00.840 but there's no way to get it implemented 00:31:00.840 --> 00:31:03.040 before this actual election can end. 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.320 I definitely would like to leave it in the queue. 00:31:09.320 --> 00:31:10.800 Yes. 00:31:10.800 --> 00:31:11.880 Leave it in the queue. 00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:16.240 That is on the list for tentative meeting topics. 00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:19.400 I'll make sure it's in this list on the slide. 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:27.800 But we won't put it on the June 8th at the later stage. 00:31:27.800 --> 00:31:28.280 Oh, yeah. 00:31:28.280 --> 00:31:29.200 All right. 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:32.200 Sounds good. 00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:33.680 Any other business? 00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:39.200 No. 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:47.200 Seeing none, I declare this meeting adjourned at 6.03 PM. 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.240 Thank you so much.