1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,800 It is Monday, April 13th, 2026. 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:15,560 It is 5.31 p.m. and we are having a special call meeting 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,040 at the Board of Ethics. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,640 I'm going to begin with presentations from the public 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,920 and my understanding is we don't have any. 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,200 So we will skip to item two, items for consideration. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,400 So item A, BOE 26-006, receive nominations 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,960 and hold an election of a Chair in question. 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,440 Open for nominations. 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,800 I guess we'll take Chair first. 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:52,320 >> Are there any requirements on this per term? 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,560 >> I don't believe, I mean you have to be a member of the Board, 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,440 but other than that I don't believe there are certain 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:00:59,960 requirements. 15 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:03,400 >> Would you be available, Justin? 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:04,320 >> For Chair? 17 00:01:04,320 --> 00:01:05,040 >> Yeah. 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,560 >> I can be, do you want to do it again? 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:09,440 >> I would love to do it again. 20 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:10,640 >> Oh, I thought you were stepping down, 21 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:11,480 that's why you said that. 22 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,320 If you're not stepping down then we'll just keep. 23 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:14,560 >> I would love to do it, yeah. 24 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,920 >> Okay, then I nominate Annette to continue. 25 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,600 >> Okay, any other nominations? 26 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:21,480 >> I'll second that. 27 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:22,400 >> Okay. 28 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,400 >> And then I will go ahead and I will nominate Justin. 29 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,120 >> For Vice Chair. 30 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:28,200 >> Wait, let's vote on. 31 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,600 >> Oh, we can go voting first. 32 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,880 >> We're closing nominations for Chair. 33 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,880 So Annette Ramsey is nominating for Chair, all in favor? 34 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:36,720 >> Aye. 35 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:37,520 >> Aye. 36 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,920 >> It passes unanimously. 37 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,720 Okay, we move on to Vice Chair. 38 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,560 >> I will nominate Justin. 39 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:47,840 >> I second. 40 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,880 >> Okay, Justin is nominating for Vice Chair. 41 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:52,800 >> Aye. 42 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,920 >> In favor? 43 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:55,440 >> Aye. 44 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:55,960 >> Aye. 45 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,760 >> Passes unanimously. 46 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,320 So Justin public is the Vice Chair. 47 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:09,680 So item B, BOE 26-007, consider the approval of minutes 48 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:18,960 for June 2nd, July 14th, and February 9th, 2026 meeting. 49 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:25,520 So June 2nd, I want to move approval of it with one, 50 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,160 there's, on the fourth paragraph, 51 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,680 found that it should be found. 52 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:37,680 And so all in favor, does anybody else have any changes? 53 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:44,760 >> So you can, minutes can be handled kind of special. 54 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,800 So you can open up to people. 55 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,960 You have, you kind of say do you have any changes 56 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,320 or then people can offer changes. 57 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:51,720 >> Okay. 58 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,760 >> And you can take a motion to approve with the changes 59 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:54,400 that have been offered. 60 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,040 For all of them at the same time. 61 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:57,040 Okay, cool. 62 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,040 >> So move on the floor for changes. 63 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,960 >> Any other changes on June 2nd? 64 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,960 >> There is a, Kenneth's name is spelled wrong on page one. 65 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,640 >> Take the E off the end of his name. 66 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:17,360 Okay, any other changes for June 2nd? 67 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:17,520 >> No. 68 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,520 >> Okay, any changes for July 14th? 69 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,880 >> I didn't see any. 70 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,280 >> What about changes for November 10th? 71 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,320 >> I had no changes for that one. 72 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:39,960 >> Okay, so February 9th, draft minutes, any changes to that? 73 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:48,000 >> That was the one we canceled, right? 74 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,240 >> Does there have to be minutes for that? 75 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,280 >> Does there have to be minutes? 76 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,840 >> Okay, yes. 77 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,120 >> Okay. 78 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,280 >> Nice note. 79 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,720 >> Says that we canceled. 80 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,280 Okay, so all in favor of the proposal. 81 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,960 >> So now take a motion on accepting them 82 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:09,800 with the changes if you like. 83 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,200 >> I move that we accept the minutes, 84 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,160 including the changes mentioned in the second [inaudible] 85 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:22,480 >> Okay, all in favor of accepting the minutes 86 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,280 with the changes, passes unanimously. 87 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:35,000 Okay, onto item C, BOE 2026-008, hold a discussion 88 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,200 and consider the adoption of the 2026 meeting schedule. 89 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:44,240 So basically the question is should we meet monthly 90 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,240 or should we meet bimonthly? 91 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:55,080 So what are your thoughts on this? 92 00:04:55,080 --> 00:05:00,520 >> I mean, we've had trouble getting a quorum for bimonthly, 93 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,880 so I think going to monthly would be a challenge. 94 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,560 And I would like to stick to bimonthly, 95 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,120 unless there's some reason why we should change. 96 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,560 >> Anybody have any concerns about going to bimonthly? 97 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,000 >> Well, bimonthly would be better than monthly. 98 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,360 Do we want to consider quarterly meetings, or just -- 99 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:23,680 >> Let's start with bimonthly. 100 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,520 >> Start -- okay, start gradually. 101 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,240 >> As chair, I can always call a meeting off. 102 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:29,640 >> Okay. 103 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,000 >> So I have -- 104 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,160 >> It's bimonthly. 105 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,360 >> So I know my rights. 106 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:44,240 So okay, so who wants to make a motion about meeting bimonthly? 107 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,040 >> I will. 108 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,760 I move that we adopt the bimonthly meeting schedule 109 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,080 on the agenda information sheet. 110 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,720 >> Okay. So the next meeting would be June 8th. 111 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,160 >> I second that. 112 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,960 >> Okay. All in favor? 113 00:05:58,960 --> 00:05:59,320 >> Aye. 114 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:00,320 >> Aye. 115 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,680 >> Passes unanimously. 116 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:09,480 >> Okay. So this next item is one that I wanted to do. 117 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,840 We're kind of moving into our season 118 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:15,640 when we've had the most complaints in the past. 119 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:21,000 So I thought that we needed to have like a little mock trial, 120 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,840 and Madison was kind enough to come up with a couple 121 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:27,160 of mock trial complaints. 122 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:27,600 So -- 123 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:28,960 >> It was Sarah. 124 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:29,760 >> Oh, Sarah. 125 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:29,920 >> Yes. 126 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:30,720 >> Thank you, Sarah. 127 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,200 Nice job. 128 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:38,840 And she did a great job of getting us the, you know, packet. 129 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:44,160 So which one would you recommend that we look at? 130 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,400 >> I think since we kind of talked about the first -- 131 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,040 example number one is maybe a little bit less complicated. 132 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:53,680 >> Is that Henry Thomas? 133 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:54,800 >> That's Kate. 134 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,400 >> Kate Smith is the complainant. 135 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:03,960 >> Okay. Okay. So what we're going to do is we're going 136 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:09,880 to pretend that we are a hearing board, 137 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,280 and we have four people instead of three. 138 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:15,760 I guess that would be fine. 139 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,400 >> Yeah. So we could -- the original idea was we'll have a -- 140 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:21,640 we'll have the two complaints. 141 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,960 We'll have two preliminary panels basically for each 142 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,160 of the preliminary assessments started, 143 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,840 and then we have the ethics hearing all together. 144 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,200 We want to just do one. 145 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,600 You could have a preliminary assessment with just three of y'all, 146 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,200 or I think y'all have all done it. 147 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,480 So I don't know if you want to do that part or just do -- 148 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,280 run through kind of the ethics complaint hearing process. 149 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,160 So that would be -- whatever is your preference really. 150 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,240 >> What's your preference? 151 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,560 >> I'm going to start with the first one. 152 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,560 >> I was thinking we could maybe do one today, 153 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,480 and since we don't have everybody here, maybe -- 154 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:05,200 >> That's a good idea. 155 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,080 >> -- maybe do the other one at the next meeting. 156 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:13,600 So we'll go with -- we'll start on Kate right now. 157 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:21,800 So I guess if you could pull up the procedures. 158 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:27,320 >> Yes. So any hearing -- there would be three of us here. 159 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:37,200 This would be the initial one to determine if we need 160 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,600 to take it to the full board. 161 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,920 So -- 162 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:49,320 >> This is the rules and procedure 163 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,880 for the preliminary assessment. 164 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:53,760 >> Okay. 165 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:59,080 >> The most important piece here is to go over the basis. 166 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:05,320 >> Yeah. So in the beginning the body would elect a chair 167 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:11,320 for the hearing, and the respondent would be here. 168 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,000 They would usually be sitting over in the -- 169 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,440 >> They're not required to be here. 170 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,400 >> They're not required, yeah. 171 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,240 But normally they are here. 172 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:27,000 And the person who complained is required to be here. 173 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,280 >> Not for the preliminary assessment. 174 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:29,000 >> Okay. 175 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,000 >> Okay. 176 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,600 >> Yeah. Usually they're not allowed to speak generally. 177 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,600 It actually says that here in the rules, no public comments 178 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,600 or testimony will be accepted. 179 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,960 The purpose of the preliminary assessment is really just 180 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:48,520 to read the complaint as it's written, assume that it's true, 181 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,400 and if it was true, right, based on that assumption, 182 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,200 would the facts as presented be a violation 183 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:56,520 of the ethics ordinance? 184 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,760 >> Okay. So I'm going to go ahead and read this out loud. 185 00:09:58,760 --> 00:09:59,720 >> Sure. 186 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:06,680 >> So Kate Smith is the complaint -- 187 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:08,680 the accused, I guess. 188 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:09,360 >> The complainant. 189 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,960 >> The complainant, okay. 190 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:16,960 So they are complaining against John R. Matthews, 191 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,640 who's a member of the Zoning Board of Adjustment. 192 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:28,280 And so they believe that Section 2-273, 193 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,440 outside employment, was one of the issues 194 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:37,320 in the otherish 2-273, improper influence. 195 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,720 From October 15, 2025 through January 10, 196 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:47,000 2026, John Matthews accepted paid consulting with Lakeside 197 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,800 Properties LLC, a local real estate firm 198 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,880 that regularly seeks zoning variances 199 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,640 from the city of Denton. 200 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,520 On January 26, John voted for a Lakeside Properties variance 201 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,480 request that he provided consulting services for. 202 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,680 John can be seen voting on item C during the January 26, 203 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:13,360 2026 meeting, which was submitted by Lakeside Properties, 204 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,520 and it has a link. 205 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,160 Payment records from Lakeside show consulting fees paid 206 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:26,560 to John in December 2025 and January 2026 for $10,000. 207 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:30,040 Lakeside's variance request includes language recommended 208 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,680 by John in the attached consulting report. 209 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:41,920 So now we deliver it. 210 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,280 Yeah, so again, the purpose of this 211 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,200 is to-- obviously, there isn't actually facts attached, 212 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,560 but we're assuming that there are. 213 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:52,320 But the preliminary assessment, you 214 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,200 assume that the complaint on its face, the things that are 215 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,160 alleged, are true. 216 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,000 And then if those things are true, 217 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,840 you're assuming that would they actually 218 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,240 be a violation of the ordinance. 219 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,440 And so we do have in here where they 220 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,280 can indicate which section of the ordinance 221 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,440 they believe has been violated. 222 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,680 So the first one that Kate Smith indicated 223 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:18,000 was the outside employment. 224 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,840 And so this is the outside employment section. 225 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,640 And so generally, what I would do 226 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,920 is present this information just to help you all walk through it. 227 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,040 And then sometimes, Dottie or outside counsel 228 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,160 might also say, this could also be this. 229 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,840 And you're allowed to consider other potential violations. 230 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,080 That's just to help the complainant as well as you all 231 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,280 guide your discussion. 232 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,680 So as you read that section C, outside employment, 233 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:50,440 if this is true, what do you think? 234 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:59,400 On the face of things, it looks like if those things are true, 235 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,880 but that does look like it could be a proper influence. 236 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,360 Andrew? 237 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,360 This says it applies to department heads? 238 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:11,840 Correct. 239 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,960 So the outside employment section, so the first section 240 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,760 that she alleged, 2-273(c), outside employment, 241 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,920 it says it applies only to department heads, which 242 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:32,360 is then defined as these people. 243 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:38,880 So if it's just a member of the zoning board, that doesn't-- 244 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:46,480 Right, so 2-273 wouldn't apply to Mr. John Matthews. 245 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:55,240 But she also alleged the 2-273(e), improper influence. 246 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,440 And then Dottie would probably have you all vote 247 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:58,520 on each of these rights. 248 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,840 She would say, OK, based on what we just discussed, 249 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,800 2-273(c), outside employment, doesn't seem like it applies. 250 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:12,320 So that would be that part of the complaint would be baseless, 251 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,120 because it wouldn't apply to him. 252 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,640 Not actionable, it doesn't apply to him. 253 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,320 The one section. 254 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,760 But then this 2-273(e), then we would discuss-- 255 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,440 So we would take about-- 256 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,400 and I'm assuming, with what we just looked at, 257 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:28,600 that it doesn't fit. 258 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,600 So then we move on to the section, second allegation, 259 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,280 basically, which is that what is described 260 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,400 is improper influence. 261 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,320 And that's what's presented on the screen. 262 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,680 Is it helpful if I zoom in a little more? 263 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,600 No, I can read it. 264 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,120 OK. 265 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,000 I don't know that I could, so. 266 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,480 [LAUGHTER] 267 00:14:51,480 --> 00:15:06,680 So what do you guys think? 268 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:24,760 They're not acting as a representative of the city, 269 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,720 are they? 270 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:27,720 Item five. 271 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:40,200 I mean, I guess-- 272 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,720 So first off, I think this section 273 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,800 does apply, because it's city official. 274 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,320 So a board member would be considered city official. 275 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:49,600 Right. 276 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,240 I'm thinking two, definitely. 277 00:15:52,240 --> 00:16:04,720 Oh, so item four would probably apply, too. 278 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,560 And if you provide consulting, then-- 279 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,480 and even with the language, then he would need to recuse himself 280 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,040 from the vote. 281 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,280 Or he should not provide the consulting in that vote. 282 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,040 But he can't do both, I wouldn't think. 283 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,640 To me, it definitely looks like there's 284 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,640 something actionable in this area. 285 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,280 Yes, in this section, I would agree. 286 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,440 Because I'm looking at number three, 287 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,480 when there's advancing or harming private interest. 288 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,400 Payment is a private interest. 289 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:37,840 So I would say there is. 290 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:38,960 Absolutely. 291 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,840 So do you want to take a vote on that? 292 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,520 Dustin, do you have any comments you want to make? 293 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,520 No, I agree. 294 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:56,600 I'm wondering, when I read through the text, 295 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,120 it sounds like also it would be a conflict of interest issue. 296 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,160 But that was not marked on-- 297 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,560 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 298 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,880 --or that section of the complaint form. 299 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:11,800 Yeah, that's OK. 300 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:12,360 We can-- 301 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:13,520 We can bring that up. 302 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,720 So we can bring that up and it down. 303 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,720 So I guess for this one, though, I 304 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,320 would agree that the description here, 305 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,320 and assuming that this is all correct, 306 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,680 kind of like what we would do in the preliminary panel, 307 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:35,800 I would agree that this would be an actionable part 308 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,920 of the complaint. 309 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,000 Should we go ahead and look at conflicts of interest? 310 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,040 Yeah, I would think-- 311 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,280 What's the rule on that? 312 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,160 Can you do that in the preliminary panel, 313 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,440 or does it have to be in the-- 314 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:51,960 In the preliminary assessment, you 315 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,520 are able, as long as you're looking just at the complaint, 316 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,840 you're just determining if what is in the complaint 317 00:17:57,840 --> 00:17:59,720 appears to be a violation of the ordinance, 318 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,440 that the check boxes are intended to help the complainant 319 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:05,120 and the board. 320 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,120 But it's not a requirement that they-- 321 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:07,840 Correct, yeah. 322 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:12,080 So even if you were like, well, improper influence doesn't 323 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,000 really fit, but we, as the board, 324 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,960 have better knowledge of the code, 325 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,760 we think the facts presented would be conflict of interest, 326 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,480 you can still advance it to a hearing 327 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,000 based on your understanding that what is presented 328 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,840 would be a violation of the ordinance. 329 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:27,840 OK. 330 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,320 Thank you. 331 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:30,800 I'm rusty. 332 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,080 That's the point of this exercise, right? 333 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,440 So yeah, so I would definitely-- 334 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,840 so we would take a vote on the improper influence. 335 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:44,000 It sounds like we all agree that that fits. 336 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,000 And then at this point, we would bring up 337 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,760 that we might also want to look at conflicts of interest. 338 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,200 I can scroll up to second. 339 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,200 Reminded of a conflict of interest section. 340 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:08,560 So that would be-- 341 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:18,440 More than, yeah, more than $600. 342 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,000 So then we would deliberate about that, 343 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,640 and then take a vote on that, I guess. 344 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,440 Right, if you believed it to be actionable. 345 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,440 Remember, at the preliminary assessment panel, 346 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,600 you're just assuming what's written is true, 347 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,040 and saying, yes, or is it actionable? 348 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,840 Meaning, it would be a violation of the ordinance 349 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,160 if it was all provable, right? 350 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,200 And then, if not, or even if it does allege something, 351 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,400 if there's nothing under the violation of the ordinance, 352 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:47,600 it's baseless, right? 353 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,880 Part of what makes this easy is that there 354 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,720 are payment records for this money, 355 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,440 and you would not normally see that. 356 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:57,360 Right, right. 357 00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,480 So that's-- I mean, just-- 358 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:00,880 Well, you're assuming that, right? 359 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:01,880 So, you know. 360 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,560 Yeah, so-- 361 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,040 And then that's what the hearing is for, is they would then 362 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,720 have to produce that evidence, if they hadn't already, right? 363 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:15,960 So then we would vote on that, and we would inform-- 364 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:22,560 a letter would then be sent to the accused, 365 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,240 said, you need to show up for a hearing. 366 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,960 So, yeah, so at this point, it seems 367 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,840 as though the preliminary assessment, mock preliminary 368 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,360 assessment, has decided that this complaint example, 01, 369 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:36,680 is actionable. 370 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,320 So at that point, you would inform me. 371 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,920 You would create a letter that would notify the complainant 372 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,120 and the respondent about the panel's determination, 373 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:49,120 and then when the hearing would be scheduled. 374 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:50,840 And then before the hearing is scheduled, 375 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,600 they would both have the opportunity 376 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,440 to provide additional evidence, the written documentation, 377 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,640 and then the complainant, so Kate Smith-- 378 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,200 not the respondent, but Kate Smith-- 379 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,400 would be required to attend, or the complaint 380 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,640 would be dismissed when we got to the actual hearing. 381 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:12,960 So what I would like to ask is that, at the next meeting, 382 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,000 why don't we take Kate's complaint 383 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,600 and assume it's a full board? 384 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,240 So then we'll say, this is what we decided, 385 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,120 and maybe we could fabricate a letter that 386 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:29,400 goes to John Matthews, and then we walk everybody through 387 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,320 with a full board website. 388 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,680 So you want to do the mock hearing next time, 389 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,280 and see what they can do? 390 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,800 That's fine with me, if that is good with you all. 391 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,160 Sure. 392 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,480 Well, just for one thing, I think we've all been through it, 393 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,960 and I'm hoping that the next time we're here, 394 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,640 we have more people that we can walk through it. 395 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,640 Am I cutting it too short? 396 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,720 Not in my opinion. 397 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,240 My opinion is not what matters. 398 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,600 There's a couple of things I wanted to bring up. 399 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,920 And first of all, there's two issues 400 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,600 that are really important for us to-- 401 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,360 you've got to remember that when we're having a hearing, 402 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:15,040 it's pretty emotional. 403 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:21,880 And you can feel for everybody involved. 404 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,400 And so you're going to want to debrief afterwards, 405 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,120 and you can't. 406 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,800 So we can't stand around and talk about it after it's over. 407 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,640 That would be what the city considers 408 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,640 ex parte communication. 409 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,040 Ex parte communication is a Latin thing 410 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,880 that means to the judge. 411 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,680 And honestly, I won't say my opinion 412 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,200 about how the city interprets that, 413 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,720 but they have a very strict definition of it. 414 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,600 So we cannot be talking about it. 415 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,080 You can't be talking about it in the room. 416 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,080 You can't be talking about it in the hallway 417 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,800 or in the parking lot. 418 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,560 But the other issue is a willing quorum, 419 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,040 and that's a different matter. 420 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,920 It's the state's determination about open meetings. 421 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:21,880 And so we cannot be talking about cases in the parking lot. 422 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,400 Let's say we have a heated discussion during the meeting. 423 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,000 We go out in the parking lot and decide 424 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,760 to continue discussion in the parking lot, 425 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:37,760 trying to convince people that we should see it my way. 426 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,920 That's a rolling quorum, could be a rolling quorum. 427 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,440 And so we don't want to do that. 428 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,520 So I want to really stress the importance 429 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,760 of both of those things. 430 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,920 We shouldn't be talking to each other. 431 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,640 We can't talk outside of the meeting. 432 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,360 And if I can just clarify a little bit. 433 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:58,800 So ex parte communication specifically 434 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,280 applies to ethics complaints. 435 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,240 So we receive an ethics complaint. 436 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,520 You might receive it ahead of time, before the meeting, 437 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,520 because you get the agenda of that information. 438 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,040 You're not allowed to talk to either the complainant, 439 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,600 the respondent, or other members of the board 440 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,840 about the contents, the substance of that complaint. 441 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,080 The complainant or the respondent 442 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,480 contacts you and tries to be like, hey, 443 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:27,760 this is what really happened. 444 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,080 You're supposed to say, we can't do that. 445 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,840 That's a violation of the ethics ordinance. 446 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,280 That is definitely ex parte. 447 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,480 The Open Meetings Act applies to anything 448 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,520 that the Board of Ethics is discussing. 449 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,080 So it includes complaints, but everything else as well. 450 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,080 So if you're discussing an amendment, 451 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,720 a closed amendment in the meeting, 452 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,000 and then you-- like the Chair Renzi was saying, 453 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,400 go outside in the parking lot, and there's 454 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,840 more than three of you there, you 455 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,720 are what is called a rolling quorum. 456 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,320 Scott, stop me if I'm wrong. 457 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,360 But that is a violation of the Open Meetings Act. 458 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:05,200 Well, if you have four people, then you just have a quorum. 459 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,880 So you're holding a meeting, but it's not a public meeting. 460 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,040 It's an unauthorized closed meeting. 461 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,200 The public isn't able to hear you guys discussing 462 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:15,320 the business of the board. 463 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,160 So that's a violation of the Meetings Act. 464 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,920 Rolling quorum would be, you go out 465 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,320 and you keep talking about it, just two of you or three of you. 466 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,720 That risks a rolling quorum, and the AG 467 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,600 tends to presume there will be a rolling quorum, 468 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,000 because then all that has to happen 469 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,200 is one of you has to go talk to another person, 470 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,360 and now a discussion has happened outside of the meeting. 471 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,560 It's also called a daisy chain quorum, 472 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,120 but the idea is if you talk to one person 473 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,080 and that person, one of you, talks to somebody else, 474 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,840 you've broken that. 475 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,880 So to be clear, extra clear, one, the quorum issue, 476 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,360 the Open Meetings Act, is a violation of state law. 477 00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:59,680 The other is an ethics ordinance violation, 478 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,840 so a violation of the local city law. 479 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,800 So there are two separate governments involved, 480 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,480 but the state law covers all of our meetings 481 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,320 with the city hold. 482 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:11,720 So if you have a question about that, 483 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,240 I was trying to make sure it's clear. 484 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:14,600 Yeah, there are two separate issues. 485 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,100 Yeah. 486 00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:19,080 I don't think so. 487 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:19,580 OK. 488 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,400 Yeah, I would like to just take this into a full board 489 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,960 format the next time. 490 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,280 Yeah, the next item is the future meeting, 491 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,720 so we can certainly put that on the next agenda. 492 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:52,320 So the next meeting we just determined 493 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,560 with is scheduled for June 8, 2010. 494 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,340 Is that the second Monday? 495 00:26:59,340 --> 00:27:00,240 That might be the fifth. 496 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,240 The first is Monday. 497 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,800 Should be the second. 498 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,320 June 8. 499 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:08,560 OK. 500 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,800 June 8 is the second Monday of June. 501 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:21,640 So it will be scheduled for June 8 at 5:30 in this very room. 502 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,800 Something horrible happens. 503 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,720 And then my understanding, obviously, we'll do the minutes. 504 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,440 We'll have the future of meeting topics. 505 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,240 And then currently, just on the agenda 506 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,800 is the continued training that we just had. 507 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:46,600 Is there anything else that you all 508 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,160 would like to put on the agenda for the next-- 509 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,120 Not really next meeting. 510 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:54,480 We have some ideas for Dublin Road goods. 511 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:55,480 We're not there. 512 00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:04,280 Is this item, the guidance line interaction with petitioners, 513 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,080 is that a new request? 514 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,200 No, it's been there for a little while. 515 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,720 It was a two minute pitch from Councilmember Beck. 516 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,920 I can't remember exactly when it happened. 517 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,320 Maybe last September. 518 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,280 And if y'all would like to discuss that further, 519 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,200 I can provide additional details at the next meeting. 520 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,200 Yeah, I'm not sure what they're getting at. 521 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:35,880 I think they were looking for just some additional guidance 522 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,000 on trying not to do improper influence. 523 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,240 If somebody comes to me, what am I about to say? 524 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,440 What am I not-- what should I not be trying to say? 525 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:52,720 A little more nitty gritty, maybe, I guess, of that. 526 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,960 Trying to figure out how to avoid [INAUDIBLE] 527 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,520 That has sort of come up lately. 528 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,400 That has, and I-- 529 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:05,400 Yeah. 530 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:05,880 No. 531 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:06,840 It's not on our agenda. 532 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,920 Can't talk about it, but it has come up in the actual situation. 533 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:11,640 Yeah. 534 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,640 So we do, but it's a good thing to talk about. 535 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,240 Sorry. 536 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,680 So we could include that on the June agenda, 537 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,400 just to see like, well, if we're going 538 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,360 to provide that guidance, maybe what would that look like? 539 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,280 What would we want to be included? 540 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:33,400 What would it cover based on the request that we received? 541 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,400 We can include that. 542 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,400 It seems like there's consensus for that. 543 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:42,520 Do we have more board members? 544 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,680 Are the people missing board members anymore? 545 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,400 We have two people that were missing for illness on board. 546 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:49,880 Yeah. 547 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,960 We have two excused absences, and we have one vacancy currently. 548 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:53,960 OK. 549 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,440 So Kenneth and-- 550 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:55,920 Diane. 551 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,920 Diane are still on board. 552 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,760 That's correct. 553 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:05,280 Well, it doesn't sound like we have any more business. 554 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:05,800 Yeah. 555 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,000 No other things to add to the June 8th agenda. 556 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,480 So to double check, the ethics complaint processing freeze 557 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,240 period, is that going to stay on there? 558 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:22,600 Because that is something that is on here as a potential topic? 559 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,360 It's possible. 560 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,200 We've had a lot of moves in this agenda, 561 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,200 so it's possible we just haven't taken that off. 562 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,560 I think you all determined not to do that, but-- 563 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:31,400 I don't think so. 564 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,600 I don't think we ever discussed it. 565 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,240 I thought we talked about it, but I'll go back to check. 566 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,640 I very much would like to-- 567 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:45,600 I'm nervous going into this season, but because-- 568 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,600 Yeah, I mean, any freeze period would 569 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,640 have to be put into the ordinance. 570 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,400 So it wouldn't impact this election cycle, just to be clear. 571 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,800 So it is not-- so it's not pressing anyway. 572 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,640 But we can certainly include it on the June 8th, 573 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,840 but there's no way to get it implemented 574 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,040 before this actual election can end. 575 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,320 I definitely would like to leave it in the queue. 576 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:10,800 Yes. 577 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:11,880 Leave it in the queue. 578 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,240 That is on the list for tentative meeting topics. 579 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,400 I'll make sure it's in this list on the slide. 580 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:27,800 But we won't put it on the June 8th at the later stage. 581 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,280 Oh, yeah. 582 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:29,200 All right. 583 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,200 Sounds good. 584 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,680 Any other business? 585 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:39,200 No. 586 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:47,200 Seeing none, I declare this meeting adjourned at 6.03 PM. 587 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,240 Thank you so much.