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 >> Good afternoon.

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 At 5.01 p.m. this Wednesday, February 25th, with the quorum present, I will call this

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 work session of the City of Denton Planning and Zoning Commission to order.

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 Our first order of business is citizen comments on the consent agenda items.

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 I don't see anyone, so that brings us to clarification of the agenda this evening.

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 Any question on the one consent agenda item?

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 No?

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 Okay.

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 Items for individual consideration, I believe both of these have now been requested to be

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 postponed, or not postponed, but the extension granted, right?

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 Are there any questions on either one of those?

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 Given that, okay.

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 Brings us to our public hearing.

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 First one is 5A S25-1A.

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 >> Good evening, commission, Bryce Van Arsdale, assistant planner.

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 This is S25-0001A, a request for an automotive fuel sales use on approximately 2.46 acres

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 of land.

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 This is located just south of East McKinney Street and on the west side, excuse me, east

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 side of Glengarry Way.

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 This proposal is consistent with the moderate residential future land use designation as

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 well as the goals and policies so forth in the comprehensive plan.

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 For this specific use permit, we do ask that the applicant goes above and beyond the typical

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 standards in order to mitigate potentially adverse effects as well as ensure compatibility

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 with the surrounding area.

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 And a couple ways that we did that is the first is to locate the building as far away

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 from Glengarry Way as possible, as well as as north as possible to East McKinney Street

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 in order to separate it from the single family residences in the area.

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 Additionally, through a neighborhood meeting, we heard that there was interest in a community

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 garden and we located that here in the southwestern corner.

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 Additionally, on the west side of the property along this Glengarry Way area, we wouldn't

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 typically require a buffer as the adjacency requirement is typically met by that right

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 of way.

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 But we asked the applicant to put this buffer in which includes street trees, ornamental

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 trees as well as some shrubs.

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 I do have a longer presentation for the public hearing but I'm open to any questions.

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 Commissioner Riggs.

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 Hey, Bryce, remind me again, but haven't we already heard this?

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 No.

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 So this was noticed at first for the meeting which got canceled due to inclement weather.

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 Okay.

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 Thank you.

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 Commissioner Dyer.

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 Did I, I can't remember, did I read in here that they were thinking of having a

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 car wash in with this?

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 There was something in the caveats like if you put this in, you have to do that.

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 Correct.

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 So this building down on the southern property line right here is a car wash and within the

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 conditions of the specific use permit, we put in hours of operation that are allowed.

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 Okay.

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 I was trying, I was like racking my brain to figure out where everything was.

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 So on the left side there, is that just green space all in that area?

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 In this area right here?

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 Yeah.

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 Yes, ma'am.

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 So it'll be, it's basically turf grass today and it's proposed for future development,

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 but there's no specific plans at the moment.

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 Okay.

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 So something could be like another building, another business.

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 Correct.

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 Okay.

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 Thank you.

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 Okay.

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 Oh, sorry.

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 Commissioner McDade.

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 Excuse my voice, guys.

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 No worries.

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 There's a gas station, where's the parking around the gas station?

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 So the parking's located here on the western side, I suppose, of that building and there's

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 also a little bit right here along the access way and the actual gas pumps are located right

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 here with where the cursor is.

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 And forgive me, but do they need to dig for and put the pumps and the gas underneath the

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 ground, correct?

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 I would assume so.

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 I don't know a lot about the infrastructure of fuel sales, but yes, ma'am, I believe that's

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 pretty typical.

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 So the city does have some requirements regarding things like that, right?

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 I'm certain that we do.

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 I would also imagine it goes back to the state level with TCEQ as well as all those environmental

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 standards.

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 On all those compliances?

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 Yes, ma'am.

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 Would be the state?

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 I believe it would mostly be the state.

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 Haley can maybe fill that in a little bit.

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 Yes, to my knowledge, the city has very limited ability to enforce anything like that because

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 underground storage tanks are regulated by TCEQ.

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 Yes, sorry, Commissioner Ketchersid?

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 When we do a gas station so close to residential properties, do we look at current evidence

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 of potential exposure, risk to the residents around it?

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 Exposure in the sense of dangerous chemicals and things like that, I would say.

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 VLCs, things like that.

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 Sure.

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 I don't know that we do that through our specific use permit review, but that is something,

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 again, that's regulated by the state with TCEQ as well as any of those environmental

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 agencies.

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 Okay.

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 Well, I was curious, so I took it upon myself to look, and I did find many studies in different

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 journals that say that within 300 feet of a property is a higher increase of things

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 like leukemia and things like that.

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 So do we look at, even though it's regulated by the state, do we ever look at those types

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 of things?

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 No, that would be outside our purview as the city.

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 So the state does have regulations in certain areas that meet certain air quality standards,

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 do have higher, like the standards where you see the additional covers on the pumps to

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 reduce emissions and things of that sort, but that is all regulated by the state.

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 We would not have that ability.

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 Okay.

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 Thank you.

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 Commissioner Dyer.

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 Getting back to Commissioner McDade's questions about the parking lot.

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 So the two-story building, is that where a convenience store gas station will be on the

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 first level and something else above it?

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 Correct.

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 So it'll be a general office above.

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 So basically everybody's got to go through cars pumping gas to access the building because

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 there's only one, two, three, it looks like there's only five parking spots in front of

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 the building.

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 Correct.

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 So there's a crosswalk that leads through those gas pumping areas, but the general office,

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 as far as I'm aware from the applicant, will be for the applicant themselves, not a rented

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 space.

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 Is it normal that the city is okay with a setup like this for pedestrian traffic?

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 It does meet all of our code requirements.

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 Okay.

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 I have one, I'm trying to read the arrows correctly and it looks like there's two parallel

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 out drive aisles on the east side of the building, is that correct?

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 Correct.

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 Is this proposed to be a drive-through use?

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 There is a drive-through use that is associated.

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 It's going to be a fast food restaurant.

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 Okay.

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 And will that be covered in the full public meeting?

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 Because I believe we require an SUP for a drive-through in the MN zoning district as

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 well, right?

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 I'm going to lean on Haley for that one.

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 Okay.

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 Microphone's not working.

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 Yes, so food sales is one of those uses that is allowed to be incidental to the automotive

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 sales use.

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 Sure.

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 So those are all being considered under the same umbrella.

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 But yes, if it was a standalone drive-through restaurant, that would require an SUP.

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 But in this case, there's uses customary to fuel sales that are lumped into that definition

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 of fuel sales and considered accessory uses to it.

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 So it's not uncommon to see a setup like this where there might be a Sonic or a coffee

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 shop or something associated with a fuel sales station.

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 Okay.

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 So the specific reason trigger, I guess, for this requiring an SUP is different, but normally

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 we would see SUP requests with drive-throughs in this zoning district.

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 I am 90% sure I can look that up for you, but yes, I do believe MN requires an SUP for

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 drive-through use.

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 Okay.

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 Thank you.

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 Any other questions, helpful information that we could scrounge before the hearing from

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 anybody?

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 Yeah.

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 Commissioner Riggs.

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 So it may be preliminary, but have we done any kind of TIAs or anything?

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 Absolutely.

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 Yeah.

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 Okay.

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 So there is one.

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 It's actually on the sheet.

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 It's kind of zoomed into the landscape.

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 Our engineering reviewed that, approved that, as well as our transportation department.

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 I have a couple of those numbers if you'd like to hear them, but I don't have the full

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 breadth of the TIA with me at the moment.

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 Yeah, sure.

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 I'd like to hear them.

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 Sure.

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 So just for the trip generation and what came out of the TIA was roughly 3,362 weekday trips.

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 Fast food and that associated use had 608.

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 The convenience store had 2,121, and the car wash had an estimated 780.

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 And there's no issues with that entering onto McKinney right there?

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 No.

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 So one thing that we did do on our transportation requirement was that they install a right

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 turn in to the property from McKinney Street.

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 Okay.

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 Thank you.

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 Okay.

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 I'm not seeing anything else.

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 Thank you, Bryce.

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 That brings us to our second public hearing, 5B, Z25-25A.

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 Good evening, Commission, Matt Burdine, Assistant Planner.

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 This is, as I mentioned, a rezoning case, Z25-25A, calarcamima.

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 This was opened at the last P&Z, but the applicant requested it to be the actual IS presentation

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 and stuff be done today, so hence today.

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00:11:04,940 --> 00:11:10,640
 In summary, this is a request to rezone just a little over five acres from rural residential

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 to general office district, is located on Barthold Road, which is in the northwest part

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 of town, just west of I-35, up in that section of the city.

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 With this request, they're proposing to develop various commercial uses.

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 Staff did find that this request is consistent with the definition of both the general office

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 zoning district as well as with that future land use map designation of light industrial.

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 Additionally, noted that there has been significant and will continue to be significant growth

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 in the area, in part due to tech stop expansion projects that are currently underway.

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 Staff is recommending approval, have a longer presentation in the meeting, but I'm here

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 to answer any questions.

198
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 Any questions?

199
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 I just wanted to tie the agenda sheet mention about the frontage along Barthold with tech

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 stop to this map.

201
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 Is that 150 feet deep equivalent to the green portion that is not under rezoning request

202
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 for the CD?

203
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:30,040
 Yes.

204
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,040
 Yeah.

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 So, I failed to mention that.

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 That little green strip on the north of Barthold Road has already been dedicated to tech stop.

207
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,720
 It's not included with this rezoning request as the property owner is no longer on that

208
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 street and it's going to become a future roadway.

209
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:47,320
 Okay.

210
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,440
 So, this parcel essentially has direct access to the right of way of Barthold Road.

211
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:52,440
 Yes.

212
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:53,440
 Yeah.

213
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,760
 It currently does and will continue to do so after the road widening.

214
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:56,760
 Okay.

215
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:57,760
 Thank you.

216
00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:58,760
 Any other questions?

217
00:12:58,760 --> 00:12:59,760
 I don't see any.

218
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:00,760
 Thanks, Matt.

219
00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:02,240
 Okay.

220
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:09,320
 That brings us to our work sessions, which we have plenty of healthy time for, so get

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00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:10,800
 your questions ready.

222
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:18,280
 First one is 3A PZ26-34, Receiver Report Holder Discussion on how the city's fiscal impact

223
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:25,480
 tools applied to the review process.

224
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:26,480
 Good evening, Commission.

225
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,960
 I'm Charlie Rosendahl, Interim Director of Development Services.

226
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:36,960
 This was an item that was on the Commission's matrix to discuss just a little bit about

227
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:42,400
 how the fiscal impact tool that we use that's included as part of your agenda backup works,

228
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 and then also just talk about one of the questions was staffing availability and who attends

229
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 PNC.

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00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,600
 So, I wanted to have those conversations with the Commission.

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00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:59,240
 So, just a little bit of background on how the fiscal impact tool that we use came to

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 be.

233
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:07,280
 So, with the new development code when it was adopted in 2019, we added a fiscal impact

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00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:12,360
 as an approval criteria as part of that, and then with that coming forward, City Council

235
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:18,480
 requested staff to develop that model and then include that as part of projects coming

236
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 forward.

237
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:27,280
 So, in July of 2020, we issued an RFP, a Request for Proposal, and AECOM was the firm

238
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 that was selected to help create this fiscal impact tool for us.

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00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:38,280
 It is an Excel-based tool that was developed shortly after that, and you'll see that this

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00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:43,000
 presentation was given to this body, I think, in September 2022.

241
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:48,840
 So, a lot of this is similar information to what was given then, but I know that some

242
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,680
 of you weren't in attendance at that point.

243
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:58,640
 So, just a refresher of how this came to be, yeah, most of you.

244
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:06,680
 And then one big, this slide is just one big asterisk that the fiscal impact tool is meant

245
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:13,760
 to be one of 13 approval criteria when this body is considering a project.

246
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:19,640
 There was a lot of discussion at that point that this shouldn't be the sole deciding factor

247
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 for whether a project should move forward or not.

248
00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:30,640
 Just a reminder that these projects come forward individually, but we think of this as a holistic

249
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:36,400
 view of the city, and so while you may have some projects that are net positive or net

250
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:43,120
 negative, that there's a mix throughout the city, and the goal is to have a balance citywide

251
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,520
 for all of that.

252
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,200
 So again, just here, this is a tool to understand the costs and benefits of each project that's

253
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:59,840
 being proposed, and a way for us to look at a 40-year perspective of these projects and

254
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:06,720
 make data-driven decisions on city revenues and general fund impacts for these various

255
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:07,720
 projects.

256
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,880
 And also, we'll talk about roadway maintenance a little bit, but that is a consideration

257
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,200
 that's contemplated as part of this tool.

258
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,080
 So really, how the tool was created.

259
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:27,200
 So we have a base layer of GIS information that's on a parcel-by-parcel basis throughout

260
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:34,120
 the entire city, and then we take some assumptions from a future development, and then we use

261
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:41,200
 a mix of effective rates based on historical information, and then actual rates where we

262
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:47,940
 can, such as fees and things that we know are going to be the actual rates for these

263
00:16:47,940 --> 00:16:56,360
 different developments, and then that's how we come up with the future impact to the city.

264
00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,880
 So here on the revenue side, you can see the mix of revenues included here and how they're

265
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:06,200
 calculated and whether they're actual, effective, or a mix of both.

266
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:12,280
 Some of the ones like property taxes, we can get actual.

267
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,000
 We know what the property tax rate is.

268
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,400
 We know what the future value, or we have an estimate of what the future value will

269
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:19,400
 be.

270
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,840
 Same with permitting fees.

271
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,160
 Some things are blended, like development fees.

272
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:30,720
 We have some fees that, like civil engineering plan review, that is based on an hourly rate.

273
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:37,120
 So we had to make some assumptions in the model based on size of what that future revenue

274
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:44,040
 would be for that, and then also some things like mixed beverage tax and retail sales tax

275
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:50,740
 was using historical information to put to a per unit basis and project out into the future

276
00:17:50,740 --> 00:17:53,740
 for these.

277
00:17:53,740 --> 00:17:58,160
 And again, I mentioned it a little bit, but really what we're looking at is a parcel-by-parcel

278
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,460
 basis, and that includes not only the information that we would get from the county appraisal

279
00:18:03,460 --> 00:18:09,920
 district, but it includes historical information that we have from utility data.

280
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:17,960
 So the tool goes in and assigns a per unit cost, if it's a multifamily, for example.

281
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:23,780
 It says, "This multifamily has this much in water and wastewater fees, and it has this

282
00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:30,600
 many units," so then we're making assumptions on units to project out to what those revenues

283
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,560
 would be for the future.

284
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:34,560
 This is an example.

285
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:41,000
 So the parcel-level data goes into roadway impact fee zones, wastewater, water impact

286
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:47,720
 fee zones, and the point that I'm trying to make here is that, really, a staff member

287
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,640
 will input a parcel number, and then it gives all of those attributes to that parcel that

288
00:18:52,640 --> 00:19:00,720
 then uses to build the future costs and revenues for that parcel.

289
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:08,840
 So as far as costs go, they're based on the city's annual financial report, our historical

290
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:17,320
 expenses, and then it projects it based on a population and commuter number, and then

291
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:22,600
 so we're taking that number when we get a new project and estimating the future residents

292
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:30,120
 and future commuters based on that project to project out to future costs.

293
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:40,740
 It has a growth factor of 2.4% based on historical growth, and then it's discussed here, marginal

294
00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:42,760
 cost for providing city services.

295
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,680
 It's really based on density, so we do have a density factor in here that I'll show an

296
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:57,160
 example of later that if you have more lots on a single parcel, then your per-person cost

297
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,280
 goes down for that.

298
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,420
 And then roadways.

299
00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:10,220
 So what we've done with roadways specifically for this model is look at two things.

300
00:20:10,220 --> 00:20:16,520
 So there's the impact of new residents on existing roadway networks.

301
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,760
 So that's done through the roadway impact fees.

302
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:27,860
 The assumption is that that captures the expansion of roadways required for those new residents,

303
00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:32,240
 and then specifically we've included maintenance costs in this.

304
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:37,240
 You'll be familiar when I'll point it out when I show the example where we have roadway

305
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,360
 maintenance at the bottom that factors into the future long-term costs, and that goes

306
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:47,080
 into whether it's an asphalt roadway or concrete roadway and the lane miles associated with

307
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:56,020
 the new development to project out to a 40-year future cost for maintenance of that roadway.

308
00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:58,440
 So here's a little bit of the backend.

309
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,240
 So this is what it looks like on the staff side.

310
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:07,360
 So what we're doing here, and I'll point to it on the screen, is we're putting in use

311
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:08,360
 types.

312
00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:09,520
 We take up to five use types.

313
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:16,080
 So if it's even a multi-use parcel, we could have apartments, retail.

314
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:23,220
 We factor in buildings, tenants to come up with a total building area.

315
00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:29,280
 And then how we assume the future property tax value of that is shown here on the right.

316
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:35,480
 So the way it calculates future revenues, at least for ad valorem property tax for the

317
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,720
 city, is that it takes the current value of the property and then it looks at the uplift.

318
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,960
 So post-construction, what is the future value going to be?

319
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:56,160
 So that is baseline using international building code costs and then associating that with

320
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,880
 the building area.

321
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,840
 And that's how we come up with this future appraised value.

322
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,120
 That's also how we calculate our permitting fees.

323
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:13,080
 But it also gives the option for staff to override if something were to come in and

324
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:20,240
 say our building code assumes that it'll be a $15 million value.

325
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:25,240
 We're hearing from the developer that they estimate that construction at the point that

326
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,520
 it's built out that it'll have a $20 million value.

327
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:37,480
 So not an often used option, but it is there for us to do that if we need to.

328
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:44,200
 And then down below you can just see the variety and types of uses that we have available as

329
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,000
 we build these out.

330
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,000
 This one is what the commission would be familiar with.

331
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,720
 So this is the fiscal summary that gets included in your agenda back up.

332
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,920
 So I'll just take some time to walk you all through what this is.

333
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:08,560
 So here on this left-hand side, you're going to see all of the projected revenues in the

334
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:14,600
 top here and then the projected expenses.

335
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:21,760
 So these are 40-year totals and then that along with the roadway maintenance costs,

336
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:29,120
 this one doesn't have any, but if there were to be let's say subdivisions putting in roughly

337
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:34,980
 two lane miles of roadway, then there would be a negative cost here that would factor

338
00:23:34,980 --> 00:23:39,500
 into the overall net impact here on the right.

339
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:45,080
 Now this other fund revenue information is put up here.

340
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:54,600
 This is more just informational on what the other wastewater utilities, electric, are

341
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,640
 going to receive.

342
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,520
 We've made assumptions here that those would be expense to the same rate since enterprise

343
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,800
 funds balance each other out.

344
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,800
 This doesn't go into the overall net impact.

345
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:13,080
 This is only looking at the general fund net impact.

346
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,160
 This is just a density example.

347
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:20,760
 I mentioned earlier that right here in this very last line where it says cost of municipal

348
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:27,960
 services per resident, this is just to show this body that as we increase density on a

349
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:37,120
 particular parcel, so this is ran on a single parcel to just show what happens if it develops

350
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:38,120
 in different ways.

351
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:43,920
 So this is if you have one large parcel with a single unit or if you had the same parcel

352
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,360
 with 14 units.

353
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:51,720
 Even though the municipal service cost goes up, because that's based on per resident,

354
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:57,640
 the actual cost per resident goes down.

355
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:06,400
 Because the assumption is that to send a fire truck to that one unit is going to have a

356
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:12,480
 cost of that roughly three residents to the house.

357
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:19,720
 That same cost going to the same parcel will have increased but not at the same rate.

358
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:28,200
 So even though it's three people to a single house, if you had 10 units, that's 30 people,

359
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,600
 it's not going to cost the same to send that one fire truck to 30 people that it would

360
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,160
 be decreased.

361
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,440
 I'm just using the fire truck example, but that goes for library services or police services,

362
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,440
 things like that.

363
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:49,040
 So that was based on a study done that is incorporated in this model that shows a drop

364
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:55,520
 in municipal costs for a single parcel based on density.

365
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:02,160
 And then here's just a few more project examples to show the commission just the overall value

366
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,440
 and net impact of different development types.

367
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:12,680
 This is nothing in particular, just ones that we had pulled in from recent pasts.

368
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:21,760
 And so 156 single family residential subdivision of roughly these number of units.

369
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:28,880
 And then if the size goes up, then the value, the net impact goes up.

370
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:36,360
 So if we're putting it 250 units at 2,500, and then you can see here with the change

371
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:41,400
 with single family, multifamily and light industrial.

372
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,500
 And then chair, if you're okay with it, I can stop and take questions on the fiscal

373
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:48,960
 impact information before I move on to the staff attendance portion.

374
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:49,960
 Sure.

375
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:55,560
 I guess I'd defer to Commissioner Riggs because he's the one that asked about the staff attendance.

376
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,500
 Do you view these as related where we should listen to both before we launch the discussion

377
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:00,500
 or separate?

378
00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:01,500
 No.

379
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:02,720
 So I think this is very helpful.

380
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,960
 I think one of the things that I attended a council meeting, particularly not necessarily

381
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:15,320
 P&Z, but a council meeting where we had a 2,000 acre development come in and there was

382
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,600
 a lot of misunderstanding about the financial model.

383
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,080
 And so I really thought it would be good to run through, particularly with this body that

384
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,320
 just give us some basic understanding of what it is.

385
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,160
 And so one of the questions I have for you, Charlie, is, you know, we're projecting out

386
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,720
 for 40 years.

387
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:37,240
 Are we also projecting out how much we think property values are going to increase, what

388
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:43,400
 the tax rate or what, you know, property taxes income is going to be, or particularly like

389
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,600
 roads, road maintenance, you know?

390
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,320
 And I know trying to project out 40 years, I think about 40 years and like that was when

391
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,640
 I was listening to cassette tapes in my car.

392
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:53,640
 So there's a lot of technology.

393
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,440
 There's a lot of things that change over 40 years and I understand this.

394
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,060
 It's a projection, right?

395
00:27:58,060 --> 00:27:59,920
 But I'd like your input on that.

396
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:00,920
 Yeah.

397
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,980
 So the way the model handles it, it's a hard coded increase, annual increase.

398
00:28:06,980 --> 00:28:13,820
 So I had mentioned the 2.4% for the general fund costs annually increasing.

399
00:28:13,820 --> 00:28:19,720
 We have a similar number for the property value increases and some of the other revenue

400
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,360
 increases as well.

401
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:29,280
 And those were based on history and one of the things I failed to mention in this is

402
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,480
 we do go through annually and update the city's budgeted costs within the model.

403
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:39,360
 We update the parcel data that's in the model to get the latest certified parcel numbers

404
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,480
 and costs associated with it.

405
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:47,000
 And then also the inflation factors is part of that.

406
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:53,760
 But I'll be honest, 40 years it's a complete, you know, it's just making assumptions based

407
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,920
 on history and there's no way to tell what those are like.

408
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,920
 And then if you will, if I may, there's one thing you brought up that I do want to mention.

409
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:13,040
 On the 2,000 acre development that you mentioned, this model is really good at single sites

410
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,920
 and analyzing them.

411
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,680
 The reason we don't use this for something like a Craver Ranch or a Hunter and Cole Ranch

412
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:25,560
 is because this was never intended to incorporate that level of a development because they have

413
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:35,000
 a mix, a lot of mix of uses, not the maybe level of parcel detail that we have here.

414
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:41,120
 And so each of those did have their own independent fiscal impact model.

415
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,800
 And we have a lot more detailed costs associated with those as well.

416
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,760
 We know what the engineering costs are going to be or the projected infrastructure costs

417
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,720
 are going to be for those.

418
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,960
 Actually, if I can, I just wanted to follow up to that.

419
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,680
 So is that financial model for those large developments like that that are obviously

420
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:09,120
 a little bit more complex, is that something that the developer contracts or the developer

421
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,440
 pays the city to use, someone we choose?

422
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:13,440
 Yeah.

423
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:19,080
 So in both instances that we've done that, we set up escrow agreements with the developer

424
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,400
 where they cover the costs of not just the fiscal study, but other studies that have

425
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,680
 to be done so the city can ensure that we're making good decisions about those developments.

426
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:34,320
 So in short, yeah, the city selects and hires the consultant that we choose and they reimburse

427
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,320
 the cost for that.

428
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,720
 Okay, yeah, I think that was some confusion maybe during that meeting too.

429
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:40,720
 Yeah.

430
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,280
 And I will tell you that this fiscal impact model and other fiscal impact models aren't

431
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,360
 looking at any of economic factors.

432
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:56,320
 And so a lot of times you'll get a fiscal impact model that will come in and they'll

433
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,680
 look at multiplier effects where you bring in a new resident and then that resident's

434
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,400
 going to spend sales tax dollars and that's going to create new jobs and then that person's

435
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,400
 going to spend sales tax dollars.

436
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,600
 These look at like one level, the fiscal impact models we've done, including this one, look

437
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:21,880
 at like one level of information to say either this much new retail will generate this much

438
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:28,960
 sales tax or this property value will generate this much sales tax, but nothing into like

439
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,480
 this is going to bring new jobs and those people are going to bring sales tax.

440
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,520
 But if you were to see an economic model, that would include some of those things.

441
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:42,160
 And that was one of the things that came up with the Craver Ranch also is they brought

442
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:48,200
 an economic model that did look at multipliers.

443
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,080
 But that was someone we hired essentially and they reimbursed?

444
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,400
 No, no, our model didn't look at that.

445
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,080
 So we had a model that was done by AECOM.

446
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:02,840
 They had their own fiscal economic model that they included as part of the backup to that.

447
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:10,200
 So there was two separate models or studies that were shown in that one.

448
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,600
 Commissioner McDade?

449
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:15,600
 Thank you.

450
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:21,520
 I was just going to clarify my understanding of what you were saying, but if you said something

451
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,120
 about the city would contract for this study and then the developer would reimburse the

452
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:32,360
 city for the study in some cases, but in that case, they brought their own economic study?

453
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,720
 Yeah, they did their own economic study.

454
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:35,720
 Okay.

455
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:42,600
 But just to be super clear, we did our own study that we contracted with AECOM on that

456
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,280
 particular development.

457
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:51,800
 They independently, they also did a study, there was an economic study that they provided.

458
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:58,320
 So there was two separate studies done, one contracted by the city, reimbursed by the

459
00:32:58,320 --> 00:32:59,320
 developer.

460
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:06,240
 My other question was regarding your comment regarding the density per person reduces the

461
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,000
 like resident services costs, is that what you were saying?

462
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:18,440
 Okay, thank you.

463
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,280
 Commissioner Dyer?

464
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,160
 Can we look at the fiscal summary page that you had up there?

465
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,160
 Yes.

466
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:32,840
 So when I'm looking at the expenses that the city has, it says neighborhood, public safety,

467
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,800
 transportation, administration and community services.

468
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:42,200
 Can you give us examples of each of those categories and what those expenses look like?

469
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:49,400
 Yeah, so this is just the way to break down our current budget into different categories.

470
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:57,340
 So like administration and community services might be the city's like finance department,

471
00:33:57,340 --> 00:34:04,800
 city manager's office, community improvement services, code enforcement, things like that.

472
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,000
 neighborhood, our departments would fall into the neighborhood category.

473
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,960
 Public safety would be like police and fire, some examples of those.

474
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:21,680
 And then transportation would be the streets department, some of those expenses.

475
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,880
 So these are basically all the city offices and departments that have their hands on a

476
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,520
 particular project.

477
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:33,520
 So this is like salaries and administrative costs and all of that that you are adding

478
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,920
 up over a 40 year period.

479
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,360
 Yes.

480
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,920
 So the way it works on the expense side is we've taken the city's entire budget and these

481
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,840
 are then in the categories you're seeing are just ways to categorize those things.

482
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,340
 So we've taken the entire city's entire budget.

483
00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:58,960
 And then this 800 new residents right here, it's saying there's a certain cost per resident.

484
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:05,160
 And then we attribute that cost to those 800 residents and then project that out 40 years.

485
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:10,960
 >> So when I look at this, because for two of the items that are on our agenda for

486
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,200
 tonight, this report is actually included in both of those.

487
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:21,160
 And so if you look at the general fund total revenue,

488
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:27,240
 subtract out the general fund total expenses, which those four categories fall into that.

489
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:30,200
 Then you have this net impact.

490
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,240
 What are we looking at like those of us that sit on this board or city council,

491
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:39,840
 like what do we want to look at when we want to see that this is a good project?

492
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:47,760
 I mean, I know this is just one aspect that you guys are presenting to us.

493
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:54,240
 But what if we see time and time again that the net impact is very low,

494
00:35:54,240 --> 00:36:01,000
 like the revenue that's brought in, like the expenses on the city is way higher.

495
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:07,400
 And we're seeing a lopsided or maybe our net impact is not as great as what we want it to be.

496
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:12,040
 Like, sometimes not all projects are a good project for the city.

497
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:16,800
 And so how do we know that we should be like, this might not be good.

498
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:22,640
 Like, do you guys, are you the first line of defense on that before you even bring it to us?

499
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,680
 And you're like, yeah, this isn't adding up?

500
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,360
 Or do we use a report like this to help us in making a decision?

501
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,520
 >> Yeah, I think it all goes into staff recommendation.

502
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,480
 And then it's up to the commission on what kind of weight you would give this.

503
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:44,200
 But I would say if I were to be in your shoes and you look at a project and

504
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,720
 you're seeing in your mind of those 13 categories,

505
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:54,440
 like you think it doesn't match on the fiscal side, it's not fiscally beneficial to the city.

506
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,240
 And then there's like three or four more of those items than it weighs into your mind, right?

507
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:02,120
 Like maybe I shouldn't be approving this.

508
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:08,600
 But what I was mentioning in the beginning is maybe, or not maybe,

509
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:14,240
 the fiscal impact shouldn't be the only deciding factor of whether this is good or not.

510
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:20,600
 But I would say in totality with the other factors within a given project,

511
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,720
 that's what you would make your decision on.

512
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:26,920
 >> Because I'm looking at this one in particular for tonight and

513
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,920
 fortunately it's almost 16 million of revenue and only 3 million of expenses.

514
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:39,600
 So it's a good bet, it's 12 million left over that the city is going to be left with.

515
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:46,000
 But I'm looking at this one and it's like the expenses almost outweigh the total revenue that's going to be brought in.

516
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:52,920
 So I don't know what the project that was, but that project there would kind of catch me off guard a little bit,

517
00:37:52,920 --> 00:38:00,040
 that maybe that's not a good project if the city is having to spend more over a 40 year period than what it's going to bring in.

518
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:06,320
 >> Yeah, even this one over a 40 year period would still be a net positive to the city, small given that.

519
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:12,040
 But if you were to only see projects like this, the city would still be based on the model,

520
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,600
 a net positive if we did ten of these projects.

521
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:21,200
 I think that's kind of what I was going back to in the beginning is you're going to see,

522
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,040
 I don't know how many projects come through this commission, 50 or 75 a year maybe.

523
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:35,520
 And it's really how do you weigh in if 20% of those are negative net impact to the city and

524
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,920
 80% of them are positive, but we need all different types of housing in the city.

525
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,200
 It doesn't really help with your decision.

526
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:49,800
 >> So there's not really a standard that you can say, we want to see these types of projects that have like,

527
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:56,600
 math is not my strong suit, I'm trying to do math on this one where you got

528
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:02,480
 almost 16 million and almost 13 million difference, so what is that?

529
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:10,440
 One to four, I don't know, I can't do the math, it's not my strong suit.

530
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:15,920
 But when I look at that and I think, wow, over 40, yes, I get it's still,

531
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,600
 you're still in the green where you're getting 2.3 million.

532
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,920
 But I'm thinking, the city is losing $40 million.

533
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,520
 They're having to spend $40 million for that project.

534
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,400
 That's only bringing in 43 million.

535
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,600
 But no, I'll tell you from a staff perspective,

536
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,600
 there's a lot more that goes into it than just the fiscal impact.

537
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:45,440
 And just generally, anecdotally about these developments is the more dense a development.

538
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,320
 If it's a commercial development, it'll be a greater net impact to the city.

539
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:57,080
 We're not going to have to provide the same level of services we would to this one that has 800 new residents.

540
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:02,240
 If it's a industrial type facility, we'll collect more property tax because it's higher value.

541
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:08,920
 But then those people need jobs, so that place needs workers and

542
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,560
 those workers need somewhere to live.

543
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,360
 And so that might go into a subdivision,

544
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,080
 which will have more of this $2 million net fiscal impact.

545
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:21,080
 Or if it's a large lot subdivision, it may even have a worse net fiscal impact.

546
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:26,440
 If they choose to live in multifamily, I think it's different.

547
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,160
 So that's what I'm talking about, a balance of different housing types and different projects.

548
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,400
 >> Okay, thank you.

549
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,600
 >> I would just add to that, a general rule of thumb for planners is residential development

550
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,640
 is hardly ever going to be financially beneficial to a city.

551
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,760
 But we still need housing of all types, to Charlie's point, to make the city function as it should.

552
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,480
 So just something to keep in mind that even when it shows a negative,

553
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,000
 that does not necessarily equate to it being a bad project that we wouldn't want in the city of Denton.

554
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,400
 >> Thank you.

555
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,440
 >> Commissioner Hutcherson.

556
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,560
 >> Does someone keep track of the net impact throughout the year?

557
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,960
 As far as negatives, positive impact?

558
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,360
 >> We do not. >> To make sure that we end up positive every year?

559
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,760
 >> No, we don't keep track of the totality of the projects coming forward.

560
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:17,240
 And I will also say that there are projects that don't come before this body either,

561
00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:22,000
 that the staff just go through and it's built by right.

562
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,120
 And those have their own impact to the city.

563
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,800
 I think the city as a whole looks at that information, right?

564
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,360
 Like what is the new property tax revenue coming in each year?

565
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,840
 And that's part of the budgeting process overall.

566
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,120
 >> Okay, thank you.

567
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,280
 >> Commissioner Garland, did you?

568
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:42,780
 Okay.

569
00:41:42,780 --> 00:41:45,060
 Sorry.

570
00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:50,880
 >> Yeah, no, I really appreciate talking through this slide.

571
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,640
 Because this is most of what we see and there's lots of numbers and sections.

572
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,480
 Just have a couple of clarifying questions.

573
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:05,120
 So the right 60% of this is general fund impact summary.

574
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,000
 So is it correct to say that that does not include revenue or

575
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,600
 expenses from the other fund revenues section that's listed in the table?

576
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,080
 >> That's correct, except for roadway maintenance at the bottom.

577
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,520
 >> Okay, got it.

578
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,760
 So the roadway maintenance which comes from the road maintenance fund as opposed

579
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,080
 to the general fund is included in the costs on the right side?

580
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,000
 >> It is included in the cost on the right side.

581
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,880
 It's not because it comes from a specific fund, but it's because the model is set up

582
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,680
 to calculate the projected future actual cost of maintenance of that roadway.

583
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,800
 >> Okay, no thank you, that helps.

584
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,360
 And I've never really known this, but

585
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,000
 within that roadway maintenance calculation.

586
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:58,880
 Are we using maintenance values that our

587
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:05,400
 roadway maintenance staff manage within?

588
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,180
 Sorry, I'm getting, let me start over.

589
00:43:08,180 --> 00:43:12,280
 >> No, I think I know- >> There's a certain number of lane miles in the city.

590
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,160
 Some of those are so far gone that we don't maintain them.

591
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,040
 That's what I've heard from staff before.

592
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,840
 Some of them are better than that.

593
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,280
 And therefore, those are quote unquote in our maintenance plan.

594
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:32,360
 So the roadway, what's the name of the department?

595
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,200
 I don't remember, Ethan and- >> Streets, the streets department?

596
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,240
 >> The streets department, thank you.

597
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:40,520
 They have a program where they say, okay,

598
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:47,240
 here's all of the 685 lane miles that we maintain right now, right?

599
00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:52,720
 We're not pending a future CIP to replace them or widen them.

600
00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:54,480
 We're responsible to maintain them, right?

601
00:43:54,480 --> 00:44:02,520
 And we have a certain amount of cost, but they also have a model where they generate

602
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,600
 what they believe is the amortized average cost for

603
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,760
 maintaining a lane mile of road over its lifetime.

604
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,080
 So first of all, am I describing that correctly?

605
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,160
 >> I honestly don't know if they, what kind of cost information that they have or

606
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,400
 have done in the past.

607
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,840
 I know specifically that this was a study done that was completed by

608
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:30,320
 Fries and Nichols when the city lasted their roadway funding strategy work

609
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:36,880
 session with city council, and then that's attributed a weak

610
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:42,040
 subgrade and a strong subgrade cost per lane mile over a 40 year period.

611
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:48,080
 The city worked to maintain those roadways based on a certain schedule.

612
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,760
 And then that is how this roadway maintenance cost is built.

613
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,920
 So not based on our current dollar spent for roadway maintenance, but

614
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,880
 based on a projected cost, depending on asphalt or concrete,

615
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,920
 based on that study from Fries and Nichols.

616
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:04,640
 >> Okay, no, that's helpful.

617
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:13,000
 And then for that first 40 years, right, for a new development,

618
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:18,960
 if it puts in new lane miles of streets, the developer is paying for it and

619
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,400
 then rolling it into the mortgage on whatever sort of properties they're

620
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,280
 selling essentially, that cost flows through to that.

621
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,280
 Who pays for rebuilding the roadway after 40 years?

622
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,200
 >> The city would pay for the rebuild.

623
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:41,240
 >> Okay, and so which revenues here, which captured revenues here are and

624
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:45,160
 expenses are accounting for that rebuild?

625
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:51,280
 >> So the Fries and Nichols studies said that based on a maintenance schedule,

626
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,520
 a concrete roadway would last a little over 50 years.

627
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,800
 I don't remember the exact, it's somewhere between 50 and 55.

628
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,920
 So that is not included in this 40 year outlook.

629
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,440
 >> Okay, so the- >> So reconstruction isn't considered?

630
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,160
 >> The reconstruction isn't considered.

631
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:12,760
 I believe our comprehensive plan says to consider the cost to maintain and

632
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,920
 reconstruct the roadways in these fiscal tools.

633
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:25,480
 Okay, and then I guess this is a little bit more minor, but

634
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,880
 I've always been confused, the service fees and

635
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,440
 license permits, those are all one time revenue, right?

636
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:38,920
 >> Generally, yes, like swimming pool inspections,

637
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,280
 if you have a commercial swimming pool, you pay fees annually.

638
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:42,780
 >> Okay.

639
00:46:42,780 --> 00:46:48,880
 >> Grocery, restaurant, if this had any of that, those are annual fees also.

640
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,160
 >> Okay, but the ones that we see in this example anyway,

641
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,880
 they're the high dollar ones, electrical, plumbing, development fees,

642
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,280
 planned review fees, those are a one time revenue source.

643
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,040
 >> Yep.

644
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,320
 >> And then in the expense side, I think you described that really what we're doing

645
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,400
 is we're taking the general fund and splitting it up into the four buckets of

646
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:15,280
 neighborhood, public safety, transportation, and admin, and community service.

647
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:15,960
 >> Yep.

648
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,680
 >> So help me understand if we have a one time

649
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,560
 fee collection, right, that's a result of the development.

650
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:32,060
 But then we're taking the expenses of those departments divided over

651
00:47:32,060 --> 00:47:37,960
 the whole city, how does that equate to the same thing?

652
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:38,760
 Does that make sense?

653
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:43,080
 >> I think I'm following you.

654
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,680
 >> Like, I'm sorry, my presentation got confusing again.

655
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,440
 >> No, no, I understand what you're saying.

656
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,840
 >> The thing I'm trying to get to is that we've had

657
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:56,760
 development fee service discussions more counsel than us in the past.

658
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,320
 And they're, at least within my tenure here,

659
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:06,560
 there's always been some sort of a subsidy, right, from tax revenue

660
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,080
 into some of the development fee work, right?

661
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:16,320
 Because the fee studies we've done say that the cost to the city to do

662
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:22,400
 the inspections and that sort of thing are higher than the fees we charge, right?

663
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:30,080
 >> So we collect our costs, our fees are based on cost recovery.

664
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:35,560
 So we're not recovering 100% of our total departmental fees.

665
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:42,120
 But there are things like GIS, for instance, that have been, or

666
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,160
 historic preservation, this is a better example, that have been designated as

667
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:47,520
 having a city-wide benefit.

668
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,960
 So not all of that position's costs are development-related.

669
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,880
 So I guess my answer would be, we are recovering our development-related costs,

670
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,560
 but there are some things in the department that have been identified as having

671
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:05,560
 a community benefit, and that's why you see less than 100%

672
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,120
 when we do a cost of service study.

673
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,240
 >> Okay, thank you.

674
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:21,760
 And I guess just to give the commission an idea, say it was a subdivision with

675
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:29,880
 50 lane miles of concrete streets, do we have any idea how much that would cost

676
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:35,920
 to reconstruct that hypothetical subdivision at 50 years, like you said?

677
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,680
 >> I don't know what the reconstruction cost would be.

678
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,920
 I don't know, somebody would know, but I don't know at this point in time.

679
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,080
 That's something I can bring back to the commission.

680
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,120
 >> Yeah, I'd appreciate an update with that information,

681
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,360
 cuz it sounds like that's not, I mean, that is a cost to the city, and

682
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,400
 it's not necessarily reflected within these summaries.

683
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:56,400
 Is that a fair statement?

684
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,320
 >> That's correct.

685
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,880
 >> Okay, any other questions?

686
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,640
 Yeah, Commissioner Riggs.

687
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:09,480
 >> I might be able to clarify, and Charlie, tell me if I'm off base.

688
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,320
 But you basically have your franchise utility funds, and

689
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:17,880
 then you have your general fund, and your general fund funds street maintenance.

690
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,560
 It funds street, well, unless you go for bond, it funds street reconstruction,

691
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,320
 police, fire, all the other general services.

692
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:32,880
 And so that's essentially funded by property taxes to the biggest extent.

693
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,440
 So whenever you're talking about how are you going to reconstruct a street,

694
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,600
 it's gonna go to your property taxes.

695
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,600
 And so one of the things that I think we need to consider too is what the state's

696
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:46,320
 doing on their level of basically decreasing

697
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:51,120
 the city's ability to raise those rates in order to fund those different projects.

698
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,840
 And so you're constantly competing with the two.

699
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,760
 And Charlie, I think we have a dedicated sales tax for street maintenance.

700
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,920
 >> I don't think so.

701
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,440
 We do have franchise, I think, that goes into the street improvement fund.

702
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:05,400
 >> Okay. >> Yeah.

703
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:12,280
 And so basically, your water and sewer are basically funded by your fees, right?

704
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,440
 And so we don't have a street fee.

705
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,840
 So it's all based on taxes.

706
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,160
 And so that's kind of where all that comes in.

707
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,920
 And so to reconstruct any kind of street,

708
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,800
 it's gonna be based on what you can bring in through your tax rate.

709
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,640
 >> Yeah, I appreciate that.

710
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,560
 I just want to make sure I'm understanding, though, on these summaries.

711
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:37,400
 This includes all the future property tax revenue of the development,

712
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:38,280
 is that correct?

713
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,680
 >> Correct. >> And it does not include the cost of

714
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,440
 reconstructing the roadways, is that correct?

715
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,640
 >> It does not, because we're looking at a 40 year time frame.

716
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,000
 If we were to project out to a future replacement or

717
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,720
 reconstruction time frame, then we would extend this out further.

718
00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:57,840
 We would include the additional property tax revenue over that time frame, and

719
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,000
 then the reconstruction costs as well.

720
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,240
 >> Okay.

721
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:05,280
 >> I'd say too, the other thing too is it's funded by the impact fees.

722
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,280
 And so what you gather in impact fees too.

723
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,480
 And so if council decides not to fund, or

724
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,800
 not to charge 100% of impact fees, then you're already starting on a deficit.

725
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,000
 >> Commissioner McDade?

726
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,880
 >> I think I was swallowing a bird, probably.

727
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:27,840
 >> [LAUGH]

728
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:28,920
 >> My apologies.

729
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,920
 Apparently, I'm the one calling people out for.

730
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:32,560
 >> [LAUGH]

731
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:33,540
 >> [INAUDIBLE]

732
00:52:33,540 --> 00:52:36,840
 >> Okay, all right, anything else?

733
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:47,820
 Is, you mentioned that if we were to do this model out to the reconstruction,

734
00:52:47,820 --> 00:52:51,800
 to include one of the reconstructions so that we have a full life cycle,

735
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,000
 essentially, of that expected time frame.

736
00:52:55,000 --> 00:53:00,080
 Is that something our existing model could be easily modified to do?

737
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,880
 Or is that something that we'd have to start back from scratch and

738
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,020
 create a whole new model?

739
00:53:04,020 --> 00:53:11,840
 >> I think it would be difficult to do with the way the existing model is set up.

740
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:18,920
 >> Are there any streets that do last exactly 40 years?

741
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:19,440
 >> [LAUGH]

742
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,560
 >> So that it would be easier?

743
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:27,440
 >> Yeah, I mean, obviously, not the way we've discussed the way that this fiscal

744
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:28,520
 impact model is set up.

745
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:30,800
 >> Okay.

746
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:31,300
 >> Yeah.

747
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:32,720
 >> Okay, no, I appreciate that.

748
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:39,080
 I think if we could just in a AIS or something, no need for

749
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,360
 another presentation to understand the reconstruction cost for

750
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,760
 a concrete and an asphalt lane mile, cuz we see those in different types of

751
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,760
 applications, that would be helpful.

752
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,560
 >> Yeah, and I'll just mention too one other thing, I guess,

753
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:59,420
 when you start projecting out into these more long term things is if we're in 50,

754
00:53:59,420 --> 00:54:03,920
 55 year territory, then depending on the development type,

755
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:09,240
 we could be talking about maybe even reconstruction of the property at that

756
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:14,040
 point, depending on what the structural conditions are.

757
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:20,840
 >> Would that be 1970 for us today if we were looking at that time frame?

758
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,000
 >> So maybe this is more of a planning question, but

759
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:30,840
 when we have an aged building that somebody wants to reconstruct, but

760
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:37,440
 it exists on an already platted lot next to city streets, are they responsible for

761
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,920
 completely reconstructing those streets when they do those building improvements?

762
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,200
 >> Not necessarily, I mean, it would depend on the condition of the roadway and

763
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,440
 the things that we've identified that might be like immediate needs.

764
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,120
 But I mean, they would pay impact fees depending on what it is that would

765
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,960
 contribute to those funds, but we wouldn't necessarily say the road that is in

766
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,280
 serviceable condition needs to be rebuilt just in front of your property because

767
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,360
 you're redeveloping the building on site.

768
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:04,960
 It would be very situational.

769
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:10,240
 >> Okay, all right, yeah, Commissioner Beeks?

770
00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:13,200
 >> Yeah, so I think one of the questions is whenever you're talking about your

771
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,280
 general fund, and how do you increase funding to support these different things?

772
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,800
 And this is where we take a measured approach, right, of what type of

773
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,000
 development we want to see.

774
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,880
 But ultimately, because of what the state's doing to the city's ability to tax,

775
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:34,240
 the only way you increase income from property tax revenue is to increase density.

776
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:37,160
 And basically add rooftops.

777
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:41,240
 And so if you're not adding rooftops, then you're gonna constantly be going into a deficit.

778
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:45,080
 >> Yeah, I appreciate that.

779
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:51,560
 And I also appreciate, maybe I didn't understand you, but saying adding density.

780
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:56,720
 Is that because other options are to add costs more than the revenues?

781
00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:00,440
 >> I think if you look at Charlie's model of basically how much you bring in from

782
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:06,680
 property taxes based on density, you see that you bring in more property tax that way.

783
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:11,160
 Now, that's where we decide, what do we want?

784
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,880
 Do we want a super, super dense, or do we want not so dense?

785
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,360
 Understanding what the financial impacts of that are, so.

786
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,320
 >> Thank you.

787
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:27,200
 I caught that that was not a hand, raised hand, so Commissioner Getcher said, good call.

788
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,520
 Thank you, Charlie.

789
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,960
 Is there any action or needed?

790
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:33,120
 >> No. >> Okay.

791
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,440
 Let's wrap up the staff attendance questions.

792
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,600
 >> Yeah, I think this came along kind of the same lines.

793
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:44,800
 There's a request, why don't we have other staff from other departments in attendance for these?

794
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,040
 So just a little bit of our current process.

795
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:53,680
 If we have an item that was gonna come before you that we think is gonna have a significant

796
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,160
 area of discussion, a lot of times this will happen with transportation.

797
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,560
 We do have staff in attendance to help answer those questions,

798
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:06,520
 especially in some of those PD plan development cases.

799
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,080
 I did wanna let the commission know, you can see here.

800
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,760
 In the bottom, some of the staff that go into the review.

801
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:21,360
 So before it comes to this commission, there's a lot of review that goes into these things.

802
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:27,120
 Less so on the zoning because it's still speculative and not necessarily an exact concept.

803
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:32,360
 But you can see if they do have a concept on a PD that we have all of these staff that are reviewing these.

804
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,320
 So the planners will be familiar with the projects.

805
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,640
 They'll have been in multiple rounds of review.

806
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:45,760
 So we'll have these projects probably six months, I would assume, four to six months maybe.

807
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,120
 We've been reviewing these projects before they come before this body.

808
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:54,160
 And so we have staff from other departments reviewing them.

809
00:57:54,160 --> 00:58:00,080
 I will say if the commission's open to it and happy to have this discussion,

810
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,400
 that we could follow a process similar to what we do with city council.

811
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:09,960
 Where if you get and then are able to look at it and you have any specific questions.

812
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,040
 If you could let us know, and you already do this.

813
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,720
 But if you let us know by the end of the day, Monday, we can get a response back to you.

814
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,640
 And then if you still feel like that response isn't sufficient,

815
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,120
 then we can make sure that we have staff here to attend the meeting.

816
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:28,800
 What we're trying to avoid is having a bunch of staff from other departments who may not be needed here.

817
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:35,000
 But I'm definitely happy to bring somebody here to answer any of the questions so that you guys feel comfortable in the decisions that you're making.

818
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,920
 >> Thoughts or questions on that?

819
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,440
 Commissioner Riggs.

820
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,800
 >> So that was one of the things that I brought up.

821
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,560
 And it goes back to the 2000 acre development that we were talking about.

822
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:53,720
 And one of the things that I felt is through the PNZ process,

823
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,880
 we knew what a lot of the questions were gonna be.

824
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:01,880
 And so when it got to council, I thought, actually one of the things for you,

825
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:07,240
 whenever you're sitting there talking about a financial model, it might have been helpful if you had a CFO there.

826
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:13,080
 Or whenever we're talking about the utilities and what's gonna happen with the utilities to have our utility director there.

827
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:17,080
 Or even just a statement from TxDOT.

828
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:22,000
 And so when it's something kind of big like that, I would think that we would

829
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:29,920
 at least have a response to those kind of questions that we know are coming or have the staff there.

830
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:36,880
 That's kind of- >> Yeah, and we do, like I said, a similar process.

831
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:41,080
 We did get some of those questions in advance and responded to them.

832
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:46,480
 But then also, you're right, a lot of times we could have the experts there.

833
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:53,440
 And I think we do a lot of, we have transportation staff there that help assist in answering some of those questions.

834
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,560
 I think our general manager of water utilities was there too.

835
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,600
 This was a significant project for the city.

836
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:05,200
 Okay, well, yeah, I hear you.

837
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:15,280
 >> Any thoughts on the proposal for future,

838
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,480
 especially the public hearings, cuz they're usually more in-depth?

839
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,600
 >> Yeah, and I will point out, if we get any individual questions from committee members,

840
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:32,640
 we'll share those with the whole committee in case anybody else is having those questions when we respond.

841
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,440
 >> Yeah, I've always found staff to be very responsive and

842
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:39,840
 helpful even when I have not provided them three days in advance.

843
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:47,400
 So my apologies for that, but I think a little bit more expectation and

844
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,400
 process might help guard their time.

845
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:55,200
 Another thing I find that is sometimes helpful for council is that I believe

846
01:00:55,200 --> 01:01:00,920
 these questions and answers are then collated to just publish within the agenda.

847
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:04,560
 And then it's updated on Granicus after the meeting, so

848
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:10,440
 that the council members and the public can see what those questions and answers were.

849
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,120
 Is that something you would propose in this, or is that?

850
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:14,360
 >> It's something we can look into.

851
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:19,240
 I'm not sure exactly how that happens on the back end, but it's something we can definitely consider.

852
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:23,720
 >> Okay, yeah, I mean, I think it, yeah,

853
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:29,080
 it would help me make sure I don't be mean to somebody, so, thank you.

854
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:35,440
 >> The staff isn't recreating what they're already doing for council if you have anything for us.

855
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:40,640
 >> Yeah, we'll have to get with the city secretary, so I honestly don't know what that process looks like, but-

856
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:41,560
 >> Sure, sure.

857
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:42,560
 >> Happy to look into it further.

858
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:48,000
 >> Okay, yeah, I'm even thinking it might help council and staff in the sense that if we ask some

859
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:53,440
 of the questions that council's wondering, they can just look up on the agenda and see the answers are already there.

860
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,040
 You don't have to answer them twice, you know that kind of thing.

861
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:57,160
 >> Yeah.

862
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:02,160
 >> So, okay, I don't see any other questions, thank you very much, I appreciate that.

863
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:10,000
 It is 603 now, let us take a five minute break and

864
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:16,920
 grab some food so that we can listen about the updated housing report while we eat.

865
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,160
 And then hopefully we'll be finished eating by the time we have questions.

866
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:26,240
 So at 603, call a five minute recess and we'll be back at 608.

867
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:26,740
 >> Yeah.

868
01:02:26,740 --> 01:02:30,400
 >> The Planning and Zoning Commission.

869
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:36,120
 Our last work session report is 3B PZ 26-35.

870
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:41,800
 Receive a report, hold a discussion on the housing memo provided the previous January.

871
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:50,720
 Sorry, this January which was an update to the previous December/January/February, so come on up.

872
01:02:50,720 --> 01:03:07,360
 >> So I'm here tonight to present the undeveloped land analysis that kind of went into

873
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:14,200
 finding what land was undeveloped in areas that were zoned for residential multifamily.

874
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:18,800
 So just a quick overview of what is GIS.

875
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,240
 GIS is an acronym, of course, for Geographic Information Systems.

876
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:28,400
 You know, this is, people won't realize, but it's intertwined a ton into what we do every day.

877
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:33,960
 You know, if you put it simply, it's where things are and what they're like there.

878
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:39,280
 So it can be as simple as using your GPS to go to the store or

879
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:45,000
 looking at your tax information on DCAD's website.

880
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,400
 So we use GIS a lot.

881
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:53,440
 So kind of to go some background into the data that we used.

882
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:58,600
 The existing land use data set that we currently had

883
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:03,640
 available to us was approximately five or six years old at this point.

884
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:08,840
 So we determined that was not going to be a good candidate to determine if parcels are still

885
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,000
 developed or undeveloped within the city.

886
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:17,720
 For that, I turned to the National Land Cover Dataset, which is a data set that's

887
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:24,520
 created from multiple federal agencies each now, each year starting in 2025.

888
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:32,000
 And that is actually gathered from the Landsat satellite program, which takes a continuous,

889
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:37,200
 takes a, or maps the earth out approximately every eight days.

890
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:42,760
 And what that gets us is something that you would see here on the right, which has the 16

891
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:50,320
 different classifications for the entire US down to what's a referred to as a 30 meter resolution.

892
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:54,040
 So it's basically a 30 meter by 30 meter square.

893
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:59,640
 And for reference, that 30 meter by 30 meter square would fit up about half the

894
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:04,320
 courtyard in front of City Hall, just to give you all a kind of spatial reference for that.

895
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:10,320
 Now, to determine these land uses, they do use deep learning models.

896
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:15,240
 And how that kind of works is someone goes and looks on a map and draws a square and

897
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:21,160
 says, hey, this is a road, you know, goes and does that for a while and then runs the

898
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:25,320
 model and it sends back to the person like, hey, I think this is all the roads that I

899
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,840
 found. And that person goes back and checks it and goes, well, this is a road.

900
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:33,800
 This is a road and it goes back and forth until they're satisfied with the deep

901
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:37,400
 learning model that they've created for the accuracy that they want.

902
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:42,000
 And just clarify, this is not based on any of our permit data.

903
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:48,040
 We purely used this NLCD data set for this.

904
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:53,320
 So to go into the actual analysis part of it.

905
01:05:54,320 --> 01:06:01,240
 So each raster is basically that 30 by 30 square converted that into four equally

906
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:07,520
 spaced points, which over the entire city equated just just short of a billion

907
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:14,920
 points. And for that point, they have value of zero for developed or one for

908
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:21,840
 undeveloped. Those came from reclassifying that initial data set and saying, you

909
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,080
 know, this these are considered developed and the rest are pretty much

910
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:29,000
 considered undeveloped and also took out any open water features.

911
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:32,520
 So we weren't considering that as undeveloped.

912
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:39,440
 And then for each parcel, we said counted the number of points and averaged them

913
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:45,320
 out. So if that number was greater than point five, it was considered

914
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:46,920
 undeveloped and was less than point five.

915
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:52,000
 We considered it developed and we did that for all the parcels throughout the

916
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:57,960
 city and then compared that to the zoning to get the numbers or to get those final

917
01:06:57,960 --> 01:06:58,880
 numbers that were sent to you.

918
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:05,320
 Now, these next few slides, we're going to be going over just some examples so you

919
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:12,000
 can see up here in the top left how the data set or what the data set showed

920
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:15,080
 versus what was actually on the ground for these three time periods throughout

921
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:18,600
 the year of January, June and October in twenty twenty four.

922
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:23,320
 So for this one, this is the Lang yard multifamily.

923
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,960
 We can see that the data set classified this as developed with high intensity,

924
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,440
 which does reflect in the aerials.

925
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,200
 We can see that that apartment building was being built throughout the year.

926
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:41,560
 On this next one, this is the Sherman crossing apartments up off of the loop and

927
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:43,080
 Sherman.

928
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:51,240
 So this one, it shows it mostly as that developed open space and the apartment

929
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:53,880
 started about halfway through this site.

930
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:56,880
 I kind of dug into this side a little bit more specifically, and this site was

931
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:01,000
 actually graded whenever the roads were built around it in twenty twenty.

932
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:05,400
 So that's why this is considered that developed open space rather than just a

933
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,640
 undeveloped land, because it was developed at some point just to this point.

934
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:10,440
 And then they stopped.

935
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:17,400
 And then this is example of something that is considered an undeveloped project,

936
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:22,200
 prestigious made at Mayhill state as this undeveloped piece land throughout.

937
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,360
 And it reflects that within the data set.

938
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:33,600
 And then this is McKinney Oaks project, which was was under review at the time.

939
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,600
 And you can see how it does reflect the mix within the neighborhood here.

940
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:42,640
 Let's operate how it is showing it as a higher density developments and also with

941
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:47,920
 the apartments here to the right and to the south or east and south, sorry.

942
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:54,800
 So you can see it does get a pretty good coverage of the city and what it actually

943
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:58,840
 is like on the ground at the resolution that it has.

944
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:07,720
 And then this is the data that was provided to you in the study.

945
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,640
 And at the site for the analysis.

946
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,960
 And then I stand for any questions.

947
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:22,160
 >> You went a little bit too fast.

948
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:23,960
 >> Sorry, I see people still too.

949
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:25,960
 >> No, [LAUGH] quite all right.

950
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:26,600
 >> Commissioner Dyer.

951
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:33,400
 >> So in trying to review the package that was emailed to us,

952
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:40,280
 did you ever figure out how many total apartment units we currently have?

953
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:46,400
 Of those units, how many are vacant or not vacant?

954
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:49,640
 And then how many more are coming?

955
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:52,880
 I mean, I know there's some projections and stuff in here.

956
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:59,400
 But do we have an example of the apartments that we have now?

957
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,440
 They're 75% capacity.

958
01:10:01,440 --> 01:10:07,440
 >> I'm going to refer to Haley for that.

959
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:15,760
 So we don't have a unit by unit vacancy tracker for the city.

960
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:21,080
 So in the memo we gave, the best data we have, which is from, I believe it's COSTAR,

961
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,400
 which is a commercial real estate firm that issues kind of regional reports.

962
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,040
 And there's one for the Denton region that our economic development team gets,

963
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,440
 I believe on a monthly basis.

964
01:10:29,440 --> 01:10:33,800
 And that report's kind of a Denton sub market vacancy rate overall.

965
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:37,760
 But we don't have a way of tracking development by development,

966
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:42,280
 we don't know what their rental or vacancy rate is at any given time.

967
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:51,560
 >> I guess my biggest concern is, it seems like a lot of the projects that get put in front of us are for multi-family.

968
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:57,960
 And I see the chatter on social media that residents are

969
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:03,560
 kind of upset about the number of multi-family units that we have.

970
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:07,960
 And I know we have to balance that out with affordable housing.

971
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:14,800
 A lot of people just automatically equate apartments to being affordable housing for people.

972
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,600
 And it's not necessarily.

973
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:26,040
 And I just remember sitting in a city council meeting months ago and

974
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:32,000
 there was the discussion about these housing, Section 8 housing, this and that.

975
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:40,200
 And just how Denton, our city, seems to have a higher percentage of all of that compared to some of the other cities.

976
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:46,020
 And so I don't want to say that we should never do multifamily housing.

977
01:11:46,020 --> 01:11:51,000
 But I'm sure it's not this board that makes this decision.

978
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:57,680
 But at what point does this board, does the city council kind of decide,

979
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:02,900
 maybe we have a moratorium on future projects like this?

980
01:12:02,900 --> 01:12:07,080
 Because we have to fill up what we have.

981
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:12,240
 And there's still some that are still being built, like the ones that are already in the pipeline that just haven't been built yet.

982
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:22,280
 So that's just, I guess that's kind of one of the reasons why I was looking at this is because I was hoping to kind of get some clarity on just.

983
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:30,120
 >> Is it what my perception, is my perception that I am gleaning,

984
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:35,600
 correct, that we have an overabundance of apartments with more yet to come?

985
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:41,240
 And do we, because I know we're in this balance legally between

986
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:45,800
 having to accept some of these,

987
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:51,840
 because you've got legal parameters that we are required to work within.

988
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:56,600
 >> Sure, and Hillary, feel free to jump in.

989
01:12:56,600 --> 01:13:00,080
 >> I'm sorry, that was a lot, I'm sorry.

990
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:07,840
 >> I was just going to say, based on the information available to us that was reported in the memo, our vacancy rate right now is around 16 and a half percent.

991
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:13,080
 So that is up from historic averages for Denton, but it's not out of character with the broader DFW market.

992
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:18,900
 So I can't speak any more specifically, unfortunately, to what that looks like.

993
01:13:18,900 --> 01:13:22,960
 To the question of when do we have enough, I would say that's going to be largely market driven.

994
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:27,840
 We also have to be mindful of people's right to develop things that are permitted in their zoning.

995
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,240
 >> It's absolutely a balance.

996
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:34,680
 >> And any contemplation of the dreaded M word, I would say,

997
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:38,120
 would be a city council decision that would have to be weighed with our legal team.

998
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:43,040
 Because there are only very specific, nuanced parameters in which that can even be considered.

999
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:45,440
 >> Did you say 16%?

1000
01:13:45,440 --> 01:13:45,940
 >> Yes.

1001
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:55,520
 >> I apologize, I didn't bring the backup material.

1002
01:13:55,520 --> 01:14:03,740
 But I recall seeing a study from, I believe it was Texas A&M on specifically Texas cities and

1003
01:14:03,740 --> 01:14:13,880
 their vacancy rates related to whether rents grow faster than inflation or go down with respect to inflation.

1004
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:23,320
 I think it was somewhere around 10 to 11% where the median rent growth was at inflation.

1005
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:30,720
 Such that if you had higher vacancy than that, prices would tend to trend down in the future, excuse me.

1006
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:33,560
 And lower vacancy than that, they would tend to go up.

1007
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:40,680
 So as far as a healthy vacancy percentage, that's what I'm familiar with within the state of Texas.

1008
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:44,880
 >> Well, and rents, there's a lot that goes into it, more than just vacancies.

1009
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:51,320
 Because you have property taxes, you have insurance, you have kind of what the market is demanding.

1010
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:58,960
 If you have, when there's less supply and demand,

1011
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:03,360
 when you have less supply in the market and

1012
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:09,600
 a high demand of people needing apartments or even rental houses, then you also see the rents go up.

1013
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:16,760
 So it's, as in everything in life, there is not an easy answer to this situation.

1014
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:21,320
 >> Other questions?

1015
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:26,200
 Yeah, Commissioner Biggs.

1016
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:28,640
 >> Can you go back to the table summary that you had?

1017
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:29,140
 >> Sure.

1018
01:15:29,140 --> 01:15:35,520
 >> So if you could summarize kind of what this is telling us.

1019
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:42,720
 Haley, you want, sorry.

1020
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:45,520
 >> Sure, and I will admit it's been a bit since I've looked at this.

1021
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:52,600
 But it does tabulate by zoning district the various scenarios in which single and

1022
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:56,920
 multi-family uses are permitted either by right or with an SUP.

1023
01:15:56,920 --> 01:16:03,360
 And just provides that breakdown of the number of acres that are undeveloped outside the floodplain.

1024
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:08,120
 So we tried to net out land that generally, I mean, you can do things to develop in a floodplain, we all know that.

1025
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:11,640
 But generally, those pieces that could be developed and

1026
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:16,480
 shows citywide that we have about 20,000 acres, it looks like,

1027
01:16:16,480 --> 01:16:20,760
 that could have some sort of residential development on it.

1028
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:26,000
 I would just caution that all of these districts, with the exception of the R districts, and

1029
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:29,040
 even some of those, also permit a variety of other uses.

1030
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:32,840
 That's not to say we're going to have another 20,000 acres of housing developed in the city of Denton.

1031
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:38,560
 So I would say it's purely there for just informational purposes for you all.

1032
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:45,000
 I wouldn't take a whole lot of assumptions from it and say, we're going to have this much multi-family coming across the city, or anything like that.

1033
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:49,960
 I don't know, Angie, if you wanted to add more to it, because you kind of worked on this while I was out on leave.

1034
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:57,880
 >> It's been a second.

1035
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:00,400
 You covered most of what I was going to say.

1036
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:08,360
 I would just kind of wanted to add some clarity as it relates to trying to project out ultimate single family homes.

1037
01:17:08,360 --> 01:17:13,720
 We took the minimum lot size that was allowed for each zoning district, but

1038
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:19,080
 tried to net out 0.2 for possible roadway acquisition or right of way that may be needed.

1039
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:24,760
 And then also tried to net out what's in the floodplain to just give you a realistic picture of the number of lots.

1040
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:32,680
 And then for our master plan communities and the Craver Ranch development,

1041
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:39,440
 we took the maximum number of single family homes that they could develop and plugged those in for the ultimate total number of units.

1042
01:17:39,440 --> 01:17:45,920
 So again, to that point, that 46,936 possible single family homes is really just that.

1043
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:46,840
 It's a possibility.

1044
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:52,600
 We're projecting the absolute maximums and not really taking into account.

1045
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:56,440
 R7 allows for a variety of commercial uses.

1046
01:17:56,440 --> 01:18:00,920
 The master plan communities may not develop that full, what they're allowed.

1047
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:04,720
 But we did take the assumption of what could be possibly done.

1048
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:07,880
 And so does that clarify?

1049
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:09,640
 >> Yes, very helpful.

1050
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:14,120
 >> Yeah, Commissioner Garland.

1051
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:20,680
 >> I think maybe to kind of piggyback off what Commissioner Dreier was saying was I think sometimes the concern is

1052
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:28,840
 if you have a developer and they invest in a piece of property and they can, these are their options of what they can develop it with.

1053
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:33,360
 And I think sometimes the perception is the easiest flip for the most.

1054
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:39,520
 >> Bank for your buck is apartments.

1055
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:44,280
 >> And so I guess the question would be, do we ever go back and kind of challenge that?

1056
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:49,520
 Because I do think it's a healthy balance where we're bringing in all of this residential,

1057
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:54,680
 no matter if it's multi-family or what, but also having a strong economic

1058
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:59,840
 development that's going to provide jobs for all of these people.

1059
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:05,000
 Because that's kind of, as a commuter that drives an hour each day,

1060
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:10,680
 I think that is kind of also on a lot of people's minds is we see apartments and houses and

1061
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:18,040
 apartments and houses, but we're not really seeing the commercial economic development that matches that pace.

1062
01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:20,720
 So how do we kind of balance that?

1063
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:25,800
 >> Sure, and I think I can try to answer that, because when you all see requests for

1064
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:29,000
 multi-family, it's usually because a zoning change is needed or an SUP.

1065
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:34,760
 And that's because multi-family is really, really allowed by right in a handful of districts and everything else is SUP or not allowed.

1066
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:42,440
 And so it does feel like maybe sometimes you see a lot of those requests, like do we ever push back?

1067
01:19:42,440 --> 01:19:47,560
 I would say you all really only ever see the projects that ultimately get to a state where

1068
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,200
 staff feels comfortable recommending approval.

1069
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:55,720
 There are a number of projects where maybe somebody's seeking, not even just multi-family, but any land use.

1070
01:19:55,720 --> 01:20:00,120
 Where we really find that in that location, it may not be feasible,

1071
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:04,960
 be it because of future land use designation or surrounding conditions.

1072
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:09,160
 And so a lot of that back and forth between is this really right or

1073
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:13,760
 is this the appropriate use for this location comes well before it ever gets to you.

1074
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:19,440
 And ultimately, most people choose not to take an application with the recommendation of denial forward.

1075
01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:22,000
 And so they just kind of filter out before they get to you.

1076
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:30,240
 >> Sorry, I'd looked halfway through the hand motion.

1077
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:31,280
 Was that a hand or not?

1078
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:38,680
 Okay, just shortly, I think when I looked at this data,

1079
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:45,200
 it looked like as far as buy right, like land where you could buy right, build multi-family.

1080
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:52,520
 It's roughly the 278 and a half acres under the MN district and

1081
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:57,280
 then a 50.8 acres of the MRMD district, right?

1082
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:00,520
 Is that a fair assessment?

1083
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:02,880
 So we're talking about 330 acres?

1084
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:04,400
 >> Yes.

1085
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:06,560
 >> I apologize for not having the slide number, but

1086
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:11,640
 I believe there was an assessment of roughly 20 units to an acre was typical density

1087
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,720
 that you see with multi-family when this was done last January.

1088
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:24,840
 And so in my mind, that equates 20 times 330, you're talking about 6,600 units, rough or take.

1089
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,760
 Is that a fair assumption of what we could build on land that's known for that right now?

1090
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:35,120
 >> That's a fair assumption that obviously doesn't take into account if any land area

1091
01:21:35,120 --> 01:21:37,760
 that needs to be set aside for roadway improvements or utilities.

1092
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:40,200
 But if we assume absolute max, then yes.

1093
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,840
 >> Okay, so we would expect it to be that or less, typically?

1094
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:44,880
 >> Typically, yes.

1095
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:49,560
 >> Okay, and then in the multi-family projects in development,

1096
01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:54,560
 there were 4,000 units in construction and 8,000 units in review.

1097
01:21:54,560 --> 01:22:01,040
 The in construction, I appreciate that that came from 2024, so that's relatively recent.

1098
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:04,400
 You would expect projects that have broken ground, certainly vertical, but

1099
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:08,480
 even some of the flat work, it looked like that may have picked that up as developed.

1100
01:22:08,480 --> 01:22:17,520
 But the 8,000 in review, I'm assuming that would be currently undeveloped MN property or MR property.

1101
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:19,160
 Is it a lot of that?

1102
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:20,480
 Is that correct?

1103
01:22:20,480 --> 01:22:25,280
 Or does this include zoning changes and other things that might come before us in the future?

1104
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:27,000
 >> I'm going to look at Haley.

1105
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:30,040
 >> If I'm remembering correctly, because it's been a little bit since we did that analysis,

1106
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:33,520
 that did include those projects that would also be coming before this body.

1107
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:37,400
 So things that would need a zoning change or a specific use permit, but

1108
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:41,520
 we knew their intent was to work with some sort of multi-family.

1109
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:47,520
 >> So from a high level view, it looks to me like if nobody asked for

1110
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:53,440
 another zoning change, there's a decent portion of

1111
01:22:53,440 --> 01:23:02,880
 the currently zoned mixed use land is in a process, in the pre-development stage.

1112
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:12,240
 Whereas the majority of single family, R1 through R7 zoned land is vacant at this point.

1113
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:14,400
 Is that a correct high level assessment?

1114
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:19,720
 >> I believe that's accurate, just looking over everything.

1115
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:21,520
 That's a good generalization.

1116
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,520
 >> Okay, yeah, and I'm intentionally trying to not get into the numbers too much.

1117
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:25,600
 >> Sure, yeah, I appreciate that, yeah.

1118
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:26,520
 >> They're going to change.

1119
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:28,360
 >> Yes.

1120
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:30,040
 >> Yeah, I appreciate all the comments.

1121
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:33,040
 I think it's important.

1122
01:23:33,040 --> 01:23:35,640
 But yeah, any other questions?

1123
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:38,000
 Okay, thank you very much.

1124
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:40,440
 Yes, Commissioner McDade.

1125
01:23:40,440 --> 01:23:44,520
 >> Excuse me all, just a clarification too.

1126
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:52,160
 The all multi-family housing is a section eight housing or affordable housing.

1127
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:54,240
 The majority of it is not.

1128
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:58,320
 There is no section eight housing to be built.

1129
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:02,040
 The section eight is a program that assists families with their rent.

1130
01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:05,240
 So, private landlords own those homes and houses.

1131
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:07,280
 They're building them or buying them.

1132
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:10,720
 They're renting them to those families.

1133
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:16,800
 We do build and do affordable housing in partnership with private developers.

1134
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:20,440
 But it's, you know, we have quite a few and quite a bit.

1135
01:24:20,440 --> 01:24:24,040
 And we're just trying to build something that's affordable.

1136
01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:29,680
 In the city of Denton, there is a lack of affordable housing.

1137
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:32,080
 We saw that during COVID time.

1138
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:33,480
 There were not enough units.

1139
01:24:33,480 --> 01:24:34,760
 There were not enough housing.

1140
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:39,480
 Even with the city, the state, and the federal government paying rents for families,

1141
01:24:39,480 --> 01:24:42,720
 there was not enough apartments for people to move into.

1142
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:45,600
 And certainly not any single family homes.

1143
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:52,240
 The majority of our section eight voucher holders, the majority do live here in the city.

1144
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:56,480
 But a whole lot of them do not even live here in the city.

1145
01:24:56,480 --> 01:25:00,280
 They take their voucher and they move outside of the city of Denton.

1146
01:25:00,280 --> 01:25:05,280
 So, if any clarification for tonight, it's multifamily, affordable housing,

1147
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:07,880
 and section eight housing, there's a whole lot of difference.

1148
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:09,880
 And it can be all of those things.

1149
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:17,200
 And you would be surprised to find that one of my section eight families may be living next door

1150
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:22,520
 to some of you, just so you know.

1151
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:23,360
 >> Yeah, I appreciate that.

1152
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:25,960
 Thank you.

1153
01:25:25,960 --> 01:25:30,080
 I won't go into more detail, but thank you.

1154
01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:35,280
 Okay, with that, at 635, we will break and reconvene the meeting.

1155
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:39,040
 Council, do your best for the meeting.

1156
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:40,120
 >> Good evening.

1157
01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:42,160
 It's 641.

1158
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:44,920
 This Wednesday, February 25th, with the quorum present.

1159
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:50,400
 And we'll call this regular meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission of Denton, Texas, to order.

1160
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:56,680
 Our first item is to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. and Texas flag.

1161
01:25:56,680 --> 01:26:05,880
 >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic

1162
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:15,320
 for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

1163
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:17,400
 >> Honor the Texas flag.

1164
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:24,280
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas, one state, under God, one indivisible.

1165
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:30,160
 >> Thank you, everyone.

1166
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:33,840
 And I apologize to the public for us being 10 minutes late here.

1167
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:38,400
 We'll try to get to your items as soon as possible.

1168
01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:47,360
 Next is item 2A, consider approval of the February 11th, 2026 Planning and Zoning Commission minutes.

1169
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:50,000
 Commissioner Getcher said.

1170
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,840
 >> I motion to approve the meetings, minutes.

1171
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:55,400
 >> And Commissioner McDade?

1172
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:57,320
 >> I second that motion.

1173
01:26:57,320 --> 01:26:59,240
 >> Motion and second on the board.

1174
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:07,480
 Not seeing any discussion, we'll call for a vote on the board.

1175
01:27:07,480 --> 01:27:16,640
 That item passes 6-0, moves us to our consent agenda.

1176
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:19,480
 Entertain a motion or discussion on this.

1177
01:27:19,480 --> 01:27:21,760
 Commissioner Garland?

1178
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:24,760
 >> Motion to approve the consent agenda.

1179
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,560
 >> And Commissioner Dyer?

1180
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:29,240
 >> I will second that motion.

1181
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:30,720
 >> Motion and second.

1182
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:33,800
 Seeing no discussion, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1183
01:27:33,800 --> 01:27:43,120
 That item passes 6-0.

1184
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:46,080
 Brings us to items for individual consideration.

1185
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:49,000
 First one is 4A, FP26-2.

1186
01:27:57,560 --> 01:28:11,000
 >> Good evening, Commissioner Matt Bodine, I'm standing in place of Mia, who's a plan

1187
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:13,080
 reviewer on this.

1188
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:21,040
 This is a final plot for Hickory Grove Phase 5, it's about an 88 acre site located in the

1189
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:26,400
 ETJ, being developed for a single family residential development.

1190
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:31,240
 It does not meet our criteria for approval at this time, however, staff has no objection

1191
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:39,040
 to the extension requested to date certain of March 18th, 2026.

1192
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:40,040
 >> Commissioner Dyer?

1193
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:44,920
 >> I would like to make a motion that we go ahead and grant the extension to March 18th,

1194
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:45,920
 2026.

1195
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:50,360
 >> Okay, motion to approve the extension request.

1196
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:51,360
 Commissioner Garland?

1197
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:54,720
 >> And I'll second that motion.

1198
01:28:54,720 --> 01:29:04,320
 Seeing no discussion, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1199
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:08,520
 That item passes 6-0, brings us to 4B, FP26-3.

1200
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:18,880
 >> Hello again, so this here is a final plot for Hickory Grove Phase 6, a 67 acre development

1201
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:25,640
 in the ETJ, residential home development, as said, does not meet our criteria for approval,

1202
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:32,240
 but once again, we have no objection to the request extension to March 18th.

1203
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:33,920
 >> Understood.

1204
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:36,640
 Commissioner Dyer?

1205
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:42,440
 >> I would like to make a motion that we go ahead and grant the extension on this item

1206
01:29:42,440 --> 01:29:44,320
 until March 18th.

1207
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:45,320
 >> And Commissioner Garland?

1208
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:47,440
 >> No, I'll second that motion.

1209
01:29:47,440 --> 01:29:58,400
 >> With the motion and second, seeing no discussion, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1210
01:29:58,400 --> 01:29:59,720
 That passes 6-0.

1211
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:01,920
 Thank you, Matt.

1212
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:10,720
 Brings us to our first public hearing of the evening, this is 5A, S25-1.

1213
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:11,920
 Good evening, Bryce.

1214
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:19,880
 >> Good evening, Chair, members of the commission, Bryce Van Arsdale, assistant planner.

1215
01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:26,600
 This is S25-001A, related to a request for a specific use permit for an automotive fuel

1216
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:30,900
 sales use on approximately 2.46 acres of land.

1217
01:30:30,900 --> 01:30:35,160
 This property is located on the south side of East McKinney and on the west side, excuse

1218
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:37,520
 me, east side of Glengarry Way.

1219
01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:41,640
 The surrounding area is predominantly residential zoning with a mixture of R2 and R3 in the

1220
01:30:41,640 --> 01:30:47,320
 area and is across the street from a commercial property as well as Billy Ryan High School.

1221
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:51,320
 This proposal does meet our criteria for approval as it is consistent with the goals and policies

1222
01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:54,920
 of the Denton 2040 comprehensive plan as well as the future land use map.

1223
01:30:54,920 --> 01:31:00,180
 It is also consistent with the use specific standards for automotive fuel sales.

1224
01:31:00,180 --> 01:31:04,360
 The future land use map designates this area as moderate residential, which typically applies

1225
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:10,360
 to the central areas of Denton as well as some transition areas and adjacent key corridors.

1226
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:14,840
 This district does typically consist of uses that are residential, but allows for some

1227
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:19,780
 residential supportive uses such as neighborhood scaled commercial at arterial and collector

1228
01:31:19,780 --> 01:31:21,600
 street corners.

1229
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:24,800
 This proposed use is once again an automotive fuel sales use.

1230
01:31:24,800 --> 01:31:29,440
 We believe it is compatible with the surrounding area and supports the neighborhood in the

1231
01:31:29,440 --> 01:31:30,440
 area.

1232
01:31:30,440 --> 01:31:34,600
 This is an example of the landscape plan, which staff has reviewed and approved.

1233
01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:38,320
 With specific use permits, we do ask that the applicant goes above and beyond the typical

1234
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:40,800
 standards which are in the Denton development code.

1235
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:45,360
 A couple ways that that has been done is by placing the building as far to the east as

1236
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:50,640
 possible and as far north as possible in order to separate it from these uses.

1237
01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:55,880
 Additionally, at the first neighborhood meeting, Esper Community Garden, which has been located

1238
01:31:55,880 --> 01:32:02,080
 in the southwest corner of the lot and along the western side of Glengarry Way, the buffer

1239
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:05,840
 is not a requirement per the Denton development code, but in order to mitigate some of the

1240
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:10,640
 light and maybe some of the sound, the applicant has installed a buffer including some street

1241
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:15,760
 trees as well as shrubs and ornamental trees in this area.

1242
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:20,520
 The city has been notified in accordance with state statute and we received three letters

1243
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:22,140
 in opposition.

1244
01:32:22,140 --> 01:32:26,000
 The applicant held two neighborhood meetings in which we heard from the community at the

1245
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:30,160
 first, but we did not have any attendees at the second meeting.

1246
01:32:30,160 --> 01:32:33,720
 Staff does recommend approval of the specific use permit with the several conditions.

1247
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:38,960
 The first being that this will substantially comply with the site plan that's been presented

1248
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:44,040
 to you and only minor modifications are allowed administratively through staff.

1249
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:47,860
 Anything larger than that will require a specific use permit amendment, which does have to come

1250
01:32:47,860 --> 01:32:50,400
 back before this body as well as city council.

1251
01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:53,900
 Additionally, one thing to note is that the accessory car wash use will be limited to

1252
01:32:53,900 --> 01:32:56,920
 operating hours between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m.

1253
01:32:56,920 --> 01:33:00,840
 The next step would be city council at the April 7th meeting, and I'm happy to stand

1254
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:07,480
 for any questions.

1255
01:33:07,480 --> 01:33:08,480
 Thank you.

1256
01:33:08,480 --> 01:33:13,400
 At this time I will open the public hearing on this item and ask the commission for questions

1257
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:23,320
 of staff before we hear from the public, if any.

1258
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:28,400
 Just one, just to get you thinking about this since I did not mention it during the work

1259
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:37,880
 session, I'm interested to understand what the capability of the city to control the

1260
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:43,640
 design and crossing treatments of McKinney in this area are based on whether it's TxDOT

1261
01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:50,980
 or City of Denton, and also if there are any planned pedestrian crossings between this

1262
01:33:50,980 --> 01:33:57,080
 and the north side of the road within this vicinity.

1263
01:33:57,080 --> 01:33:58,480
 Not seeing any other questions.

1264
01:33:58,480 --> 01:34:01,160
 This is a public hearing.

1265
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:12,160
 I have a few cards to speak.

1266
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:20,280
 First one I have is from Ms. Isabella Sample or Sample?

1267
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:21,280
 Sample.

1268
01:34:21,280 --> 01:34:22,280
 Okay.

1269
01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:27,040
 If you could come forward and state your name and address, you'll have four minutes to speak.

1270
01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:35,880
 My name is Isabella Sample, and I live at 5304 Polly Drive, Denton, Texas.

1271
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:40,960
 In reviewing the plan for that lot specifically, I've lived in that neighborhood almost all

1272
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:45,880
 20 years of my life, and a couple years ago they installed the Dollar General right across

1273
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:51,960
 the street from the lot in question, and I think despite what they thought when they

1274
01:34:51,960 --> 01:34:56,200
 installed it, it is not beneficial for our community, it has caused more problems in

1275
01:34:56,200 --> 01:34:57,660
 our neighborhood than good.

1276
01:34:57,660 --> 01:35:00,720
 I witness people almost getting into accidents every single day.

1277
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:05,560
 I witness kids from Billy Ryan High School where my brother did attend running across

1278
01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:09,240
 the McKinney instead of using the crosswalk.

1279
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:15,740
 People park and block the general road from where we enter off of McKinney onto Glengarry,

1280
01:35:15,740 --> 01:35:20,160
 and I think that building this kind of establishment in the open lot is only going to make these

1281
01:35:20,160 --> 01:35:25,280
 problems worse, especially with what I've noticed around town that things like gas stations

1282
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:32,240
 do tend to attract a certain type of clientele outside, and while I have no issue with that,

1283
01:35:32,240 --> 01:35:36,280
 I do have an issue with it being so close to the school and to the neighborhood where

1284
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:38,440
 we do have several kids.

1285
01:35:38,440 --> 01:35:42,640
 There are three on my street alone that are under the age of 10, and I think that this

1286
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:48,040
 would pose a safety problem for members of this neighborhood.

1287
01:35:48,040 --> 01:35:51,660
 In general, I also think it's just going to make traffic a lot worse for all of us.

1288
01:35:51,660 --> 01:35:55,840
 I know many people in my neighborhood, on my street specifically, we all work nine to

1289
01:35:55,840 --> 01:36:00,080
 five jobs that already have to deal with the traffic coming from Billy Ryan High School,

1290
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:04,920
 so adding something like a gas station with a car wash is only going to make the problem

1291
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:05,920
 worse.

1292
01:36:05,920 --> 01:36:08,260
 That's all I have.

1293
01:36:08,260 --> 01:36:11,360
 Thank you.

1294
01:36:11,360 --> 01:36:13,680
 Thank you.

1295
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:23,360
 The next card I have is from Mr. Travis Sample, same drill, name and address.

1296
01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:27,960
 Travis Sample, 5304, Pauley Drive, Denton, Texas, 76208.

1297
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:33,640
 Yeah, Mr. Pruitt, I think you were prescient in your remark about asking about the crosswalk

1298
01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:35,140
 situation.

1299
01:36:35,140 --> 01:36:40,120
 The nearest crosswalk is in front of Billy Ryan, where their main entrance, T-Bonson,

1300
01:36:40,120 --> 01:36:46,840
 to McKinney on the north side, and whereas that is the place to cross, humans are lazy,

1301
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:49,640
 kids are triply so, and none of them use it.

1302
01:36:49,640 --> 01:36:55,920
 They all cross there, right in front of our subdivision, which is a terrible place because

1303
01:36:55,920 --> 01:37:03,840
 there's also a hill heading east on McKinney there, which is a bad sight line, and so also

1304
01:37:03,840 --> 01:37:09,680
 the gas station sitting on the east is going to interfere with that same sight line of

1305
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:13,920
 you being able to tell when people are coming over, and we already have a problem where

1306
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:19,760
 with the Dollar General, people don't want to go all the way, because people are lazy,

1307
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:24,640
 they don't want to go all the way into the parking lot, so they just park right up to

1308
01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:29,280
 McKinney, which then when you're out on the street, you have a problem with your sight

1309
01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:37,520
 line going into the subdivision, and so you wind up having to slow way more than you would,

1310
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:42,000
 which again, okay, well you're doing that, you're being slow, but the people behind

1311
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:47,600
 you who want to be in a hurry will then whip out so that they can cross in the left lane

1312
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:54,060
 instead of the lane that you're in, which is them making rash decisions where, as I

1313
01:37:54,060 --> 01:37:58,920
 mentioned before, kids are crossing because already they were going to the Dollar General,

1314
01:37:58,920 --> 01:38:04,280
 now they're also going to the gas station, proposed gas station.

1315
01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:08,760
 It's just in general, it's the front of a neighborhood, it's not where you need this

1316
01:38:08,760 --> 01:38:15,000
 sort of thing, as Isabella pointed out, certain elements will definitely be attracted to hanging

1317
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:22,680
 out there, this is a family neighborhood, I've lived there, I'm intimate with the dynamics

1318
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:29,780
 of the traffic in that area, I've lived there, not five, not 10, 25 years, I've been a five

1319
01:38:29,780 --> 01:38:35,760
 year old child for 20 years, I've been a full grown adult for 25 years.

1320
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:40,040
 The Dollar General was not a good addition to our neighborhood, this gas station is not

1321
01:38:40,040 --> 01:38:44,800
 going to be a good addition to our neighborhood, and not only that, McKinney going east is

1322
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:51,120
 a dead end, I don't know what you're trying to serve, there's a Valero less than one

1323
01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:57,860
 mile to the west, another half mile and you'll find a 7-Eleven and a Murphy's.

1324
01:38:57,860 --> 01:39:06,480
 This is served, it does not need another one there, so that's all I have to say.

1325
01:39:06,480 --> 01:39:19,020
 Thank you, Travis, I have a question if you don't mind, when you mentioned, sorry, it's

1326
01:39:19,020 --> 01:39:22,080
 coming back, it's somewhere in there.

1327
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:25,480
 Was it about your pressures?

1328
01:39:25,480 --> 01:39:35,040
 No, it was, sorry, it was about the parking on the street question, I just want to make

1329
01:39:35,040 --> 01:39:39,560
 sure we understand specifically what location you're talking about.

1330
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:46,680
 In that case, that's the Dollar General, on the west side of Glengarry, and their parking

1331
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:52,160
 is, if I'm looking at it with you, so here's Glengarry and here it is, the parking area

1332
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:58,040
 is back here, their front door is all the way up at Glengarry, so people do not wish

1333
01:39:58,040 --> 01:40:02,600
 to walk around the whole building, because literally their parking is in the back, and

1334
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:08,460
 the back left side of their building is not even up towards the front, and there's none

1335
01:40:08,460 --> 01:40:14,320
 in front, only there is, there's even a fire hydrant there, and they still park in front

1336
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:20,160
 of that, and somebody went out there and painted red, don't park here, but I don't think that

1337
01:40:20,160 --> 01:40:24,120
 was an official city, it does not look like an official city job, I think that was just

1338
01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:29,680
 one of us that went out there and decided to try, and they still just park there anyway,

1339
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:34,080
 and like I said, that limits the sight line coming in, you wind up having to be very slow

1340
01:40:34,080 --> 01:40:38,640
 and worse, you'll start to pull in, and then all of a sudden somebody's opening that driver

1341
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:39,640
 door.

1342
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:46,280
 Yeah, sorry, my concern is really to understand specifically where people, if it's consistent,

1343
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:50,920
 are parking for five minutes to run into the store, is this inside the parking lot once

1344
01:40:50,920 --> 01:40:52,920
 they turn in, or is this on Glengarry?

1345
01:40:52,920 --> 01:40:56,880
 No, this is Glengarry, and this is McKinney, they are parking here.

1346
01:40:56,880 --> 01:40:57,880
 On Glengarry?

1347
01:40:57,880 --> 01:40:58,880
 Correct.

1348
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:03,120
 Heading, or pointing the vehicle southbound, instead of turning into the parking lot?

1349
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:04,120
 Correct.

1350
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:05,120
 Okay, thank you.

1351
01:41:05,120 --> 01:41:08,720
 And I mean, that's consistent, I mean, please.

1352
01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:09,720
 Appreciate that, thank you.

1353
01:41:09,720 --> 01:41:10,720
 No problem.

1354
01:41:10,720 --> 01:41:13,200
 Any other questions from the commission, Commissioner Dyer?

1355
01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:16,520
 I have two, I have questions for our two speakers.

1356
01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:21,200
 So I'm always curious, and I get it, you live in this neighborhood and something new comes

1357
01:41:21,200 --> 01:41:26,240
 along and you're like, oh, not that, we don't want that, like, what would you guys like

1358
01:41:26,240 --> 01:41:32,880
 to see the person that purchased that lot put in there if you don't want a gas station

1359
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:33,880
 there?

1360
01:41:33,880 --> 01:41:37,080
 Do you want to see nothing there, is there something else you would rather see?

1361
01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:44,360
 Yeah, go ahead on that one, I'll have to think about that to give you a good answer.

1362
01:41:44,360 --> 01:41:48,000
 So I kind of have a little bit of insight into this, as someone that lived there as

1363
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:52,640
 a child, and I'm also an education major at Texas Women's.

1364
01:41:52,640 --> 01:41:57,400
 I would honestly prefer to see some sort of community-based development be put there.

1365
01:41:57,400 --> 01:42:00,680
 We have a lot of kids in the neighborhood, and I myself played in that field growing

1366
01:42:00,680 --> 01:42:01,680
 up.

1367
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:07,400
 So in the plot map that they showed, they put the gas station as far north and east

1368
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:08,400
 as possible.

1369
01:42:08,400 --> 01:42:11,800
 If they would develop something like a park or a community center there, that would be

1370
01:42:11,800 --> 01:42:15,680
 far more beneficial for the students of Billy Ryan, for the kids that live in that neighborhood.

1371
01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:16,680
 Well, that's not a business.

1372
01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:20,960
 I think she was saying for the people that bought it to get a return on their investment.

1373
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:27,200
 So usually, this is what's very hard when we sit up here, is because we have to balance

1374
01:42:27,200 --> 01:42:33,520
 like your rights as the neighbors, but also balance between the property owner's rights

1375
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:35,880
 and what they want to put in there.

1376
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:40,200
 I'm sure they've looked at all different things and due diligence and where they're going

1377
01:42:40,200 --> 01:42:48,280
 to make the most profit, and they talk about their ROI, their rate of return and everything.

1378
01:42:48,280 --> 01:42:51,520
 So it's always really hard, because I get it.

1379
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:58,120
 I've had this in my area too, like, "Oh, I don't want to see that," type of thing.

1380
01:42:58,120 --> 01:43:02,560
 And so we sit up here and have to make these decisions, and so I'm just kind of curious

1381
01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:07,680
 that I get it's residential and I get it's across from the school, and I get the concern

1382
01:43:07,680 --> 01:43:14,280
 about a gas station, but there's also going to be potentially a food portion in there

1383
01:43:14,280 --> 01:43:17,200
 with a drive-through window.

1384
01:43:17,200 --> 01:43:21,040
 There's an upstairs, so there's going to be more offices, so it's going to be a little

1385
01:43:21,040 --> 01:43:28,280
 bit more than just this, and there's even the potential on the portion closest to Glengarry

1386
01:43:28,280 --> 01:43:31,720
 that there could be another structure built sometime down the road.

1387
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:38,120
 So I'm just trying to gauge what would you like to see in there if we voted no for this.

1388
01:43:38,120 --> 01:43:43,520
 I think what I came up with, just again, not having long to think about it, but I'd love

1389
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:45,400
 to see a daycare going there.

1390
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:47,640
 That would really serve the populations that are there.

1391
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:52,840
 Right down the street is a very large trailer park.

1392
01:43:52,840 --> 01:43:58,000
 I'm quite sure that most of those folks have to work a lot of jobs, so I'm sure that they

1393
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:00,920
 need quite a bit of daycare just right off the top of my head.

1394
01:44:00,920 --> 01:44:07,060
 But second, to address the idea that you have to balance, and I know something new and it

1395
01:44:07,060 --> 01:44:12,360
 seems scary, in a vacuum for us, it's not exactly something theoretical for us.

1396
01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:14,760
 Instead, it's something we've already tested.

1397
01:44:14,760 --> 01:44:19,680
 We had the Dollar General put in at the front of our neighborhood, and we know how it goes.

1398
01:44:19,680 --> 01:44:25,960
 I was trying to demonstrate our experience with that and how it has been not positive

1399
01:44:25,960 --> 01:44:26,960
 at all.

1400
01:44:26,960 --> 01:44:29,720
 It has attracted the kids to run across from Billy Ryan.

1401
01:44:29,720 --> 01:44:36,380
 It has attracted the people to park in an illegal way and create traffic problems and

1402
01:44:36,380 --> 01:44:38,800
 potential accidents all the time.

1403
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:43,360
 So for us, it's not theoretical.

1404
01:44:43,360 --> 01:44:44,360
 It's practical.

1405
01:44:44,360 --> 01:44:45,440
 You've had some experience.

1406
01:44:45,440 --> 01:44:50,760
 We have practical experience with businesses being on that corner, not being good for our

1407
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:51,760
 neighborhood.

1408
01:44:51,760 --> 01:44:57,200
 So a question for staff and maybe the owner, if the owner is here, have there been any

1409
01:44:57,200 --> 01:45:02,800
 neighborhood meetings with the community, whether it's the school or whether it's this

1410
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:06,480
 particular neighborhood that this is going to sit next to?

1411
01:45:06,480 --> 01:45:07,480
 Thank you, Travis.

1412
01:45:07,480 --> 01:45:09,640
 To get their input, so the owner could get their input.

1413
01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:10,640
 Sure.

1414
01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:14,520
 So the neighborhood meetings were held, and that was with that 500 radius that we would

1415
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:15,520
 typically notice.

1416
01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:19,920
 We had, I believe, two or three different groups of attendees at the first one, families,

1417
01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:23,080
 households, and I don't believe anybody showed to the second meeting.

1418
01:45:23,080 --> 01:45:24,080
 Okay.

1419
01:45:24,080 --> 01:45:27,080
 I guess we're not as done as 500 feet, but we're still in the neighborhood.

1420
01:45:27,080 --> 01:45:28,080
 So we found it hard to find information on this.

1421
01:45:28,080 --> 01:45:29,080
 Okay.

1422
01:45:29,080 --> 01:45:30,080
 Three residents showed up for the second meeting, and there was no meeting.

1423
01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:31,080
 Okay.

1424
01:45:31,080 --> 01:45:47,840
 We'll get to that in a minute, but there is one more card here wishing to speak.

1425
01:45:47,840 --> 01:45:52,480
 Ms. Adriana Sample, welcome to come forward.

1426
01:45:52,480 --> 01:45:58,000
 Adriana Sample, 5304 Poly Drive, Denton, Texas.

1427
01:45:58,000 --> 01:46:02,720
 My husband and my daughter pretty much covered all of it, something I really want to point

1428
01:46:02,720 --> 01:46:07,080
 out and why it's critical that this does not go in there.

1429
01:46:07,080 --> 01:46:12,280
 The entrance and exit to Dollar General is on Glengarry.

1430
01:46:12,280 --> 01:46:18,120
 One of the proposed entrances and exits for this facility, one's on Glengarry and one

1431
01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:20,240
 is on McKinney.

1432
01:46:20,240 --> 01:46:23,480
 Our neighborhood only has one exit and entrance.

1433
01:46:23,480 --> 01:46:26,520
 There's no other way out of our neighborhood.

1434
01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:31,960
 We're increasing traffic to the one area that we go in and out of.

1435
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:38,280
 We have kids crossing in between cars because they're parking illegally, we're making the

1436
01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:43,360
 turn off McKinney, and all of a sudden there's this kid bolting between cars to get to the

1437
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:47,160
 car across the street where the parents have parked because they didn't want to park on

1438
01:46:47,160 --> 01:46:49,680
 the side.

1439
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:54,900
 When the plan for Dollar General was done, I think that wasn't considered that really

1440
01:46:54,900 --> 01:47:00,600
 that entrance and exit should not have been onto Glengarry but maybe onto McKinney, so

1441
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:04,200
 we're just exacerbating the problem that's already there.

1442
01:47:04,200 --> 01:47:09,000
 But they, like I said, covered most of the other issues.

1443
01:47:09,000 --> 01:47:14,720
 I just want that looked at also because we have no other way out of that neighborhood.

1444
01:47:14,720 --> 01:47:15,720
 Thank you.

1445
01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:18,960
 I don't see any questions.

1446
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:24,880
 This is a public hearing, so anyone else, if there's anyone else present that would like

1447
01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:29,200
 to speak on this item, you're welcome to come up.

1448
01:47:29,200 --> 01:47:34,440
 One, two, if that's all right.

1449
01:47:34,440 --> 01:47:38,480
 I'll just ask that after you finish speaking if you could fill out a card so that the secretary

1450
01:47:38,480 --> 01:47:39,480
 has record of it.

1451
01:47:39,480 --> 01:47:45,400
 My name is Marjane Vesuas, 5908 Woodwind Drive in Plano.

1452
01:47:45,400 --> 01:47:48,400
 I'm the architect for the project.

1453
01:47:48,400 --> 01:47:55,160
 We had the first meeting, the first neighborhood meeting, and we tried to incorporate everything

1454
01:47:55,160 --> 01:47:58,040
 that was given to us by the neighbors.

1455
01:47:58,040 --> 01:48:09,720
 We have a community garden for them to enjoy and very close to in the Glengarry area.

1456
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:21,280
 We also have made a traffic impact analysis to make sure that there is no traffic impact

1457
01:48:21,280 --> 01:48:28,200
 coming into the gas station through East McKinney.

1458
01:48:28,200 --> 01:48:37,400
 In Glengarry, we do have an exit there, but it's only for the fire trucks, it's not as

1459
01:48:37,400 --> 01:48:41,840
 a main entrance or exit.

1460
01:48:41,840 --> 01:48:47,200
 We needed an extra exit, and that's why we had to put it there, but it's not intended

1461
01:48:47,200 --> 01:48:55,200
 for people to come in through that area.

1462
01:48:55,200 --> 01:48:58,760
 The owner wants to be a good neighbor.

1463
01:48:58,760 --> 01:49:04,520
 They have listened to the neighborhood and incorporated everything that the neighbors

1464
01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:06,680
 said during that first meeting.

1465
01:49:06,680 --> 01:49:15,200
 In the second meeting, you said that there were three people, but I don't know if there

1466
01:49:15,200 --> 01:49:21,240
 was no one that showed up when they were there in that meeting.

1467
01:49:21,240 --> 01:49:28,440
 I don't know if there was a miscommunication about the timing, but we really tried to incorporate

1468
01:49:28,440 --> 01:49:32,440
 all the concerns from the neighborhood.

1469
01:49:32,440 --> 01:49:38,120
 Thank you, Commissioner Garland, you have a question.

1470
01:49:38,120 --> 01:49:44,760
 Can I ask what led you guys to decide to do a gas station there with just knowing there

1471
01:49:44,760 --> 01:49:53,120
 were already a couple in such close proximity, and then was there any other development considered?

1472
01:49:53,120 --> 01:50:06,920
 The gas station is an acceptable occupancy type for this particular zoning, so the ones

1473
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:17,240
 that we're here for is the car wash, which is a single person, a small one, like 7-Eleven

1474
01:50:17,240 --> 01:50:24,480
 type, and the drive-thru, but everything else is allowed in that area.

1475
01:50:24,480 --> 01:50:25,480
 Okay.

1476
01:50:25,480 --> 01:50:28,040
 Thank you.

1477
01:50:28,040 --> 01:50:34,480
 Thank you.

1478
01:50:34,480 --> 01:50:41,360
 I think there's one, yeah, one more speaker.

1479
01:50:41,360 --> 01:50:45,840
 Good evening.

1480
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:48,080
 Thank you for having us here tonight.

1481
01:50:48,080 --> 01:50:49,600
 My name is Neil Harkrider.

1482
01:50:49,600 --> 01:50:52,960
 I'm at 5224 Tartan Circle.

1483
01:50:52,960 --> 01:50:59,360
 My office window actually overlooks this lot that we're talking about.

1484
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:03,600
 A couple different things that were pointed out by other people, and I loved some of the

1485
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:05,040
 comments that they made.

1486
01:51:05,040 --> 01:51:11,200
 The Valero is, like was mentioned, very close by, and then Murphy's is right there, and

1487
01:51:11,200 --> 01:51:14,840
 right next to Murphy's is a car wash.

1488
01:51:14,840 --> 01:51:22,400
 So it's being served, what they're dishing up is being served in a very close proximity.

1489
01:51:22,400 --> 01:51:28,280
 I think the point of, it's a residential street, Glengarry Way is a residential street,

1490
01:51:28,280 --> 01:51:31,680
 so you're putting this business on a residential street.

1491
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:32,920
 Okay.

1492
01:51:32,920 --> 01:51:37,040
 But it is one entrance and exit for the entire subdivision.

1493
01:51:37,040 --> 01:51:41,000
 It's 143 families in that subdivision.

1494
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:44,520
 It's already difficult enough to get on to McKinney.

1495
01:51:44,520 --> 01:51:46,600
 This is going to exasperate it significantly.

1496
01:51:46,600 --> 01:51:51,040
 I love the fact that maybe it's for a fire only, but the fact of the matter is there's

1497
01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:56,240
 an entrance and exit being proposed onto the residential street.

1498
01:51:56,240 --> 01:52:01,520
 Not to mention, again, theoretical versus reality, the lights and the noise and all

1499
01:52:01,520 --> 01:52:04,160
 this, and a 24/7 business.

1500
01:52:04,160 --> 01:52:07,720
 How exciting at the one entrance to our subdivision.

1501
01:52:07,720 --> 01:52:10,880
 A question was asked, what would you rather have?

1502
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:13,360
 Certainly, I'm pro-business, absolutely so.

1503
01:52:13,360 --> 01:52:15,600
 Been that way for my whole career.

1504
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:22,120
 That said, I would think if you're going to nest this into a residential neighborhood,

1505
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:24,440
 make it an eight to five job.

1506
01:52:24,440 --> 01:52:29,080
 Make it an eight to five clinic, an eight to five business, something like that.

1507
01:52:29,080 --> 01:52:36,320
 Not something that's going to be there all day, all night, lights, music, action.

1508
01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:41,040
 The Valero, if you happen to be, because you guys are all, I'm sure, residents of Denton,

1509
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:48,060
 if you drive by the Valero there on the corner of Mayhill and McKinney, there's a significant

1510
01:52:48,060 --> 01:52:55,200
 presence of what I would say is a homeless character type of thing.

1511
01:52:55,200 --> 01:53:01,680
 It's very significant, and there's a high number that hang out at that Valero.

1512
01:53:01,680 --> 01:53:07,040
 I can imagine now that we're going to have this high population hanging out right in

1513
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:09,160
 front of our houses.

1514
01:53:09,160 --> 01:53:13,560
 That's hard enough in Denton, with that particular issue.

1515
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:20,720
 Don't put it right there at our front door.

1516
01:53:20,720 --> 01:53:21,720
 Thank you.

1517
01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:22,720
 Thank you.

1518
01:53:22,720 --> 01:53:27,640
 This is a public hearing, so if anyone else would like to speak, you're more than welcome

1519
01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:31,280
 to.

1520
01:53:31,280 --> 01:53:39,640
 I do not see anyone else.

1521
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:43,400
 I think we get the gist, unless there's a completely new ...

1522
01:53:43,400 --> 01:53:44,400
 It is.

1523
01:53:44,400 --> 01:53:45,400
 Okay.

1524
01:53:45,400 --> 01:53:51,760
 I'll permit, but you'll have to come up to the mic just very briefly, if you can.

1525
01:53:51,760 --> 01:53:52,760
 Just the idea.

1526
01:53:52,760 --> 01:53:59,360
 I know the circle, but I saw 500 feet, whatever, who had to be contacted for the initial meetings

1527
01:53:59,360 --> 01:54:04,040
 meets some sort of definition, but when you actually look at that map and see that, as

1528
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:08,840
 my wife pointed out, that's the only road in, that circle should really have been extended

1529
01:54:08,840 --> 01:54:12,640
 to include us, so that we would have been at those first meetings, rather than having

1530
01:54:12,640 --> 01:54:17,320
 to wait until that sign went up, and little tiny sign, and then for us to go figure out

1531
01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:19,440
 how to get to this meeting.

1532
01:54:19,440 --> 01:54:24,440
 I think I would have preferred that perhaps the entire neighborhood which is affected

1533
01:54:24,440 --> 01:54:26,200
 would have been consulted.

1534
01:54:26,200 --> 01:54:29,640
 Thank you very much.

1535
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:30,640
 Yes.

1536
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:31,640
 Commissioner McDade?

1537
01:54:31,640 --> 01:54:38,560
 Sir, do you have a homeowners association or a neighborhood association over there?

1538
01:54:38,560 --> 01:54:41,380
 Thank you.

1539
01:54:41,380 --> 01:54:43,480
 Okay.

1540
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:47,120
 With that, I will close the public hearing.

1541
01:54:47,120 --> 01:54:54,660
 I will ask staff to come up and just try to address a few things that I heard.

1542
01:54:54,660 --> 01:55:00,200
 The crossing, general questions, if you have any information on that, as well as just for

1543
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:05,400
 the benefit of the public, if you could explain what our process is for notification, I understand

1544
01:55:05,400 --> 01:55:12,880
 it's not necessarily encompassing that, but also pointing to the online capabilities that

1545
01:55:12,880 --> 01:55:17,440
 we have for subscribing to additional notifications, if one would wish.

1546
01:55:17,440 --> 01:55:18,440
 Sure.

1547
01:55:18,440 --> 01:55:23,880
 First, to address the crossing, East McKinney is a text dot right of way, so I'm not sure

1548
01:55:23,880 --> 01:55:28,000
 maybe Haley can speak to the ability of our transportation department to work with text

1549
01:55:28,000 --> 01:55:31,280
 dot and how willing they are to work with us on getting crosswalks like that established.

1550
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:34,600
 I'm not sure if there's a certain separation that needs to be met between crosswalks or

1551
01:55:34,600 --> 01:55:39,120
 anything like that, but that is why there's not, or one of the reasons there may not be

1552
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:45,600
 a crosswalk there is because it's a text dot right of way and not the city of Denton.

1553
01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:46,600
 Thank you.

1554
01:55:46,600 --> 01:55:48,200
 And as far as the notification questions.

1555
01:55:48,200 --> 01:55:49,200
 Sure.

1556
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:53,440
 So for the notification, the city of Denton, so state statute mandates a 200 foot notice

1557
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:55,680
 for these public hearings.

1558
01:55:55,680 --> 01:56:00,400
 The city of Denton has extended that to a 500 foot courtesy notice where we mail these

1559
01:56:00,400 --> 01:56:05,960
 out to a larger, so it was a larger area than what would typically be included and captured

1560
01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:09,120
 within those state mandated notices.

1561
01:56:09,120 --> 01:56:12,760
 As Commissioner Peruzzi said, there are some additional ways through our website that you

1562
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:15,400
 can sign up for those notifications and things like that.

1563
01:56:15,400 --> 01:56:20,800
 We also did publish a notice in the Denton Record Chronicle as well as our city website

1564
01:56:20,800 --> 01:56:24,320
 which maintains these notices.

1565
01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:27,160
 I believe that answers your question and I don't miss anything.

1566
01:56:27,160 --> 01:56:28,240
 No, that's it.

1567
01:56:28,240 --> 01:56:33,480
 I think it's always hard when we're doing notifications because you have to have some

1568
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:36,000
 sort of process.

1569
01:56:36,000 --> 01:56:43,280
 At the same time, we've had applicants who've come in and chosen to notify more than just

1570
01:56:43,280 --> 01:56:47,620
 the 500 required, especially for the neighborhood meetings.

1571
01:56:47,620 --> 01:56:57,320
 Can you just explain to us so that we understand ... I understand we can't require an applicant

1572
01:56:57,320 --> 01:57:00,200
 to notify additional residents.

1573
01:57:00,200 --> 01:57:05,560
 Is there any sort of general process that we have for suggesting, "Hey, if you want

1574
01:57:05,560 --> 01:57:10,480
 to involve the community so you don't have a surprise, we would recommend this?"

1575
01:57:10,480 --> 01:57:11,480
 Sure.

1576
01:57:11,480 --> 01:57:15,400
 As far as I'm aware of, what we typically rely on will be those HOAs and neighborhood

1577
01:57:15,400 --> 01:57:19,120
 organizations that are going to fall within that 500-foot buffer.

1578
01:57:19,120 --> 01:57:22,920
 We do send the mailing list out to the applicant.

1579
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:26,200
 We do include that 500-foot list rather than the 200-foot list.

1580
01:57:26,200 --> 01:57:29,840
 The difference in those two, just for the sake of the public, is that the 200-foot list

1581
01:57:29,840 --> 01:57:34,520
 is able to register opposition and the 500-foot is just a courtesy notice.

1582
01:57:34,520 --> 01:57:35,520
 Okay.

1583
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:36,520
 Thank you.

1584
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:42,160
 Any ... No, because our public hearing is closed.

1585
01:57:42,160 --> 01:57:48,440
 I think we understand ... We've heard many times from others, as well as you, notification

1586
01:57:48,440 --> 01:57:54,680
 is always a challenge, but we understand that it would have been nice to know about the

1587
01:57:54,680 --> 01:57:57,320
 neighborhood meetings beforehand.

1588
01:57:57,320 --> 01:57:59,760
 Any other questions of staff of the commission?

1589
01:57:59,760 --> 01:58:00,760
 Oh, sorry.

1590
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:01,760
 Commissioner Riggs.

1591
01:58:01,760 --> 01:58:02,760
 Yeah, Bryce.

1592
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:03,760
 Thank you.

1593
01:58:03,760 --> 01:58:10,600
 One of the things that was said was that a gas station could go here by right, by the

1594
01:58:10,600 --> 01:58:11,680
 current zoning.

1595
01:58:11,680 --> 01:58:12,680
 Is that the case?

1596
01:58:12,680 --> 01:58:13,680
 That's not correct.

1597
01:58:13,680 --> 01:58:17,360
 There are a litany of uses allowed within the MN zoning district, such as hotels and

1598
01:58:17,360 --> 01:58:21,080
 multi-family that are allowed by right, but the gas station itself is why we're here with

1599
01:58:21,080 --> 01:58:22,080
 a specific use permit.

1600
01:58:22,080 --> 01:58:23,080
 Okay.

1601
01:58:23,080 --> 01:58:24,080
 I just wanted to clarify that.

1602
01:58:24,080 --> 01:58:32,400
 Then with regards to the entrance onto Glengarry, is that a requirement by a fire marshal?

1603
01:58:32,400 --> 01:58:33,880
 I don't believe it's by the fire marshal.

1604
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:39,960
 I could be incorrect in that, but any development over 30,000 square feet will require two entrances.

1605
01:58:39,960 --> 01:58:44,920
 There's also different distances and separations from intersections, which is why we ended up

1606
01:58:44,920 --> 01:58:49,280
 with one on Glengarry, one on East McKinney, rather than two on East McKinney.

1607
01:58:49,280 --> 01:58:50,280
 Okay.

1608
01:58:50,280 --> 01:58:51,280
 Thank you.

1609
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:52,280
 Sure.

1610
01:58:52,280 --> 01:58:53,280
 Commissioner McDade.

1611
01:58:53,280 --> 01:59:02,640
 Could you put the map back up, the drawing showing the fire lane or onto the street?

1612
01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:08,160
 That's what I was trying to understand, the difference between an entrance and exit and

1613
01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:09,720
 a fire lane.

1614
01:59:09,720 --> 01:59:11,800
 Is it an entrance and exit?

1615
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:14,600
 It can be used as an entrance and exit, yes, ma'am.

1616
01:59:14,600 --> 01:59:15,600
 Okay.

1617
01:59:15,600 --> 01:59:16,600
 Thank you.

1618
01:59:16,600 --> 01:59:22,360
 Commissioner Catreson.

1619
01:59:22,360 --> 01:59:29,400
 Are the trees and the fence, are those supposed to be mitigation for odor for the gasoline?

1620
01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:34,440
 I believe that just knowing the ecology of trees, I suppose, there's some level of that,

1621
01:59:34,440 --> 01:59:37,360
 but I don't believe that it'll be from a perspective of mitigation.

1622
01:59:37,360 --> 01:59:45,680
 Then the approval for HUP also requires mitigation for things such as noise, odors, things like

1623
01:59:45,680 --> 01:59:46,680
 that.

1624
01:59:46,680 --> 01:59:47,680
 So I was just making sure.

1625
01:59:47,680 --> 01:59:48,680
 Correct.

1626
01:59:48,680 --> 01:59:50,760
 The lights and the noise will be mitigated by those trees, but I'm not sure about the

1627
01:59:50,760 --> 01:59:53,680
 odor aspect of that.

1628
01:59:53,680 --> 01:59:55,160
 Okay.

1629
01:59:55,160 --> 01:59:58,320
 Commissioner Dyer.

1630
01:59:58,320 --> 02:00:04,640
 Just getting back to notification, I get that the city and the applicant follow to the full

1631
02:00:04,640 --> 02:00:12,680
 extent of the law that it requires it to, but we see this time and time again where

1632
02:00:12,680 --> 02:00:19,600
 sometimes your neighbor is a couple people, where it really affects more than that, but

1633
02:00:19,600 --> 02:00:27,200
 because of the size of that radius, it only falls in with a select few.

1634
02:00:27,200 --> 02:00:31,640
 This is where it would be really nice if staff did work with the applicant and say, "Hey,

1635
02:00:31,640 --> 02:00:38,400
 yes, legally you are required to notify between the 200 and a 500-foot zone," but in this

1636
02:00:38,400 --> 02:00:43,600
 instance, you have a whole neighborhood, and when you have those neighborhood meetings,

1637
02:00:43,600 --> 02:00:46,920
 you really should send it out.

1638
02:00:46,920 --> 02:00:51,360
 What is it, just 100 more houses that they're really having to send a postcard to to say,

1639
02:00:51,360 --> 02:00:54,160
 "Hey, we're going to have these couple of things."

1640
02:00:54,160 --> 02:01:00,320
 It just would be a courtesy and a respect thing to the neighbors so that they, at that

1641
02:01:00,320 --> 02:01:06,520
 time, can have a say of, "Hey, this is what we experienced with Dollar General, and we

1642
02:01:06,520 --> 02:01:12,480
 don't want to see this happen," and there can be that back and forth between it showing

1643
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:14,560
 up here.

1644
02:01:14,560 --> 02:01:22,520
 Just on an unrelated note, just looking at the Dollar General, maybe staff can go back

1645
02:01:22,520 --> 02:01:26,680
 and look, because it looks like at the parking lot, you could almost put another entrance

1646
02:01:26,680 --> 02:01:32,040
 onto McKinney to avoid people pulling in and parking on the street, but that's just a,

1647
02:01:32,040 --> 02:01:35,560
 "If you all want to check that out," type of thing.

1648
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:37,720
 Other questions?

1649
02:01:37,720 --> 02:01:43,000
 Yeah, Commissioner Ketch is it?

1650
02:01:43,000 --> 02:01:49,220
 I would also like to add, I did a quick little Google search before coming up here, and there

1651
02:01:49,220 --> 02:01:56,400
 are seven gas stations within a three-mile area from Billy Ryan High School, just FYI.

1652
02:01:56,400 --> 02:01:57,400
 Yes?

1653
02:01:57,400 --> 02:01:58,400
 Please.

1654
02:01:58,400 --> 02:02:07,760
 I just wanted to add a little clarification on the access to McKinney Street.

1655
02:02:07,760 --> 02:02:11,600
 Since the Dollar General has developed, we do now have that two points of access requirement

1656
02:02:11,600 --> 02:02:13,080
 in our code.

1657
02:02:13,080 --> 02:02:16,560
 That did not exist when Dollar General was developed, and we do not allow access to an

1658
02:02:16,560 --> 02:02:20,400
 arterial street, which McKinney is, if you have access via another street.

1659
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:23,600
 They could not have access to McKinney when that developed.

1660
02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:27,320
 The parking location that was brought up by the neighbors, and why that's not facing McKinney

1661
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:31,400
 is because of the MN zoning, which prohibits parking in front of the building.

1662
02:02:31,400 --> 02:02:37,720
 Just some things for you all to keep in mind.

1663
02:02:37,720 --> 02:02:39,040
 Commissioner Ketch is it?

1664
02:02:39,040 --> 02:02:40,040
 Sorry.

1665
02:02:40,040 --> 02:02:46,520
 I might add that as far as the parking goes, if you will put that on the Denton 311 app,

1666
02:02:46,520 --> 02:02:50,720
 that might help in taking care of that for you.

1667
02:02:50,720 --> 02:02:53,520
 Thank you.

1668
02:02:53,520 --> 02:02:57,720
 Other discussion or questions at this time?

1669
02:02:57,720 --> 02:02:58,720
 Yes.

1670
02:02:58,720 --> 02:03:01,240
 Please do.

1671
02:03:01,240 --> 02:03:08,840
 While we're not posted for an overall discussion on sufficiency of notifications, I do just

1672
02:03:08,840 --> 02:03:18,680
 want to confirm for everyone's benefit that notification followed state law and our DVC

1673
02:03:18,680 --> 02:03:19,680
 procedures.

1674
02:03:19,680 --> 02:03:22,680
 Thank you for that.

1675
02:03:22,680 --> 02:03:23,680
 Yes.

1676
02:03:23,680 --> 02:03:27,840
 At some point, we'll stop adding things.

1677
02:03:27,840 --> 02:03:31,160
 I also did want to point out, I know it's been a while since we've discussed notifications

1678
02:03:31,160 --> 02:03:35,820
 for the commission, but the neighborhood meetings are also an optional thing, so we can't dictate

1679
02:03:35,820 --> 02:03:38,080
 how an applicant chooses to hold or not hold those.

1680
02:03:38,080 --> 02:03:41,840
 We can just recommend and give them the minimum notification standards for it if they choose

1681
02:03:41,840 --> 02:03:43,240
 to have one.

1682
02:03:43,240 --> 02:03:44,240
 Okay.

1683
02:03:44,240 --> 02:03:49,080
 Thank you.

1684
02:03:49,080 --> 02:03:50,080
 Commissioner Riggs.

1685
02:03:50,080 --> 02:03:53,160
 So, Bryce, I know we're talking about a SUP.

1686
02:03:53,160 --> 02:03:59,000
 Could you talk about maybe just a quick brief summary of what some allowed uses would be

1687
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:00,000
 in the mixed residential?

1688
02:04:00,000 --> 02:04:01,000
 Sure.

1689
02:04:01,000 --> 02:04:04,680
 I do have the use table on my hidden slides as well if you'd like to go over that, but

1690
02:04:04,680 --> 02:04:10,120
 a couple that I have written down as possible uses would be most of your residential uses,

1691
02:04:10,120 --> 02:04:15,080
 single family, townhome, duplex, triplex, fourplex, but it does also include the multifamily.

1692
02:04:15,080 --> 02:04:17,480
 There are use specific standards that come with that.

1693
02:04:17,480 --> 02:04:22,200
 Some other options would be, as previously mentioned, the daycare is an option, schools,

1694
02:04:22,200 --> 02:04:29,440
 medical office, restaurant, private club, personal service general, tattoo parlor, hotel,

1695
02:04:29,440 --> 02:04:33,040
 as well as some very minor industrial uses, which would be allowed by Wrighton's zoning

1696
02:04:33,040 --> 02:04:34,040
 district.

1697
02:04:34,040 --> 02:04:38,040
 And so any of those could go in today without any specific use permit?

1698
02:04:38,040 --> 02:04:39,040
 Correct.

1699
02:04:39,040 --> 02:04:41,400
 They'll not be coming to public hearing if they would like to go through any of those

1700
02:04:41,400 --> 02:04:42,400
 uses.

1701
02:04:42,400 --> 02:04:43,400
 Okay.

1702
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:44,400
 Thank you.

1703
02:04:44,400 --> 02:05:03,680
 Yeah, I'll say many things about this area of town and the application really to me tell

1704
02:05:03,680 --> 02:05:18,960
 the story of how we allow the need for conveyance of vehicles to drive the land use decision

1705
02:05:18,960 --> 02:05:22,560
 instead of the other way around.

1706
02:05:22,560 --> 02:05:25,840
 It's a textile roadway, so we have limited control.

1707
02:05:25,840 --> 02:05:31,440
 Therefore, whatever we choose about what we build there is going to impact the choices

1708
02:05:31,440 --> 02:05:34,280
 people make.

1709
02:05:34,280 --> 02:05:46,280
 And so in my mind, the choice of what we allow there within the zoning rules directly impacts

1710
02:05:46,280 --> 02:05:50,000
 the safety of the community.

1711
02:05:50,000 --> 02:05:58,040
 Any other questions or discussion from the commission?

1712
02:05:58,040 --> 02:06:01,840
 Or a motion?

1713
02:06:01,840 --> 02:06:04,120
 Oh, sorry.

1714
02:06:04,120 --> 02:06:07,320
 Commissioner Ketcham said.

1715
02:06:07,320 --> 02:06:16,240
 So not only due to opposition, but I feel like I've given also reasons to motion for

1716
02:06:16,240 --> 02:06:28,080
 denial for this SUP based on odor mitigation, potential health risks.

1717
02:06:28,080 --> 02:06:32,240
 We've talked about traffic risks.

1718
02:06:32,240 --> 02:06:38,400
 And even though they do have the right to build whatever they want on their property,

1719
02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:43,800
 this is an SUP, so they're asking for extra rights as well.

1720
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:50,320
 So I motion to deny.

1721
02:06:50,320 --> 02:06:51,320
 Commissioner McDade?

1722
02:06:51,320 --> 02:06:56,080
 I whole second that motion to deny.

1723
02:06:56,080 --> 02:07:01,320
 Any other discussion points?

1724
02:07:01,320 --> 02:07:09,360
 Yeah, I'll just add that I think I'll be supporting this motion.

1725
02:07:09,360 --> 02:07:15,440
 And I fully understand that there are other by-right uses that can go here.

1726
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:25,480
 Again, I'm chiefly concerned about the safety and how this impacts an area that will see

1727
02:07:25,480 --> 02:07:28,560
 increased car traffic over the next several years.

1728
02:07:28,560 --> 02:07:34,480
 There's a couple of subdivisions east of here that are going in, right?

1729
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:46,440
 And while other things can be built here, in my judgment, those things are likely to

1730
02:07:46,440 --> 02:07:54,920
 induce less darting across the street, as we've seen, which is really just people wanting

1731
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:59,680
 to get to the other side of the road and not take a 18 minute detour to walk down to the

1732
02:07:59,680 --> 02:08:04,040
 traffic light.

1733
02:08:04,040 --> 02:08:05,040
 Commissioner Riggs?

1734
02:08:05,040 --> 02:08:11,880
 Yeah, I will say, you know, whether this passes or not, I do appreciate the applicant's willingness

1735
02:08:11,880 --> 02:08:14,080
 to move the building as far away.

1736
02:08:14,080 --> 02:08:17,800
 I do think most of the traffic is probably going to, because of the way you situated

1737
02:08:17,800 --> 02:08:22,520
 that building, is going to necessarily be on McKinney and not Glengarry.

1738
02:08:22,520 --> 02:08:25,320
 So just wanted to make that point.

1739
02:08:25,320 --> 02:08:27,760
 Thank you.

1740
02:08:27,760 --> 02:08:31,360
 I have an echo of that.

1741
02:08:31,360 --> 02:08:36,920
 Often, we see applications that come before us that staff and applicants have worked very

1742
02:08:36,920 --> 02:08:44,520
 diligently on to attempt to mitigate the things that they know are a challenge within the

1743
02:08:44,520 --> 02:08:50,520
 constraints of the site and what roads we have control over.

1744
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:58,800
 And I think in this case, it's just a challenging place that it's hard to complete all that

1745
02:08:58,800 --> 02:09:03,920
 mitigation.

1746
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:08,800
 Not that it in any way will probably affect UL's decision here, but I did want to correct

1747
02:09:08,800 --> 02:09:10,240
 one thing on the record.

1748
02:09:10,240 --> 02:09:13,220
 We did find additional information.

1749
02:09:13,220 --> 02:09:17,640
 While Bryce is correct, McKinney used to be a textile roadway up until very recently.

1750
02:09:17,640 --> 02:09:22,200
 It was handed over to the city for maintenance just in the last couple of years.

1751
02:09:22,200 --> 02:09:25,160
 So just wanted to correct the record on that and make sure you all knew that it is a city

1752
02:09:25,160 --> 02:09:26,880
 street at this point.

1753
02:09:26,880 --> 02:09:27,880
 Thank you.

1754
02:09:27,880 --> 02:09:30,040
 I appreciate that.

1755
02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:36,040
 I also am confused.

1756
02:09:36,040 --> 02:09:41,720
 Some areas, there are text out streets that we have an understanding to do the maintenance

1757
02:09:41,720 --> 02:09:42,720
 on.

1758
02:09:42,720 --> 02:09:45,600
 So you're saying this is a city, right?

1759
02:09:45,600 --> 02:09:47,480
 It's been turned back to the city already?

1760
02:09:47,480 --> 02:09:48,480
 Yes.

1761
02:09:48,480 --> 02:09:50,880
 Our maps were recently updated and show it now as a city-owned road.

1762
02:09:50,880 --> 02:09:55,320
 I believe it's just been in the last couple of years that TextDOT completed whatever obligations

1763
02:09:55,320 --> 02:09:59,800
 they had for maintenance after the reconstruction projects that were done and now it has been

1764
02:09:59,800 --> 02:10:01,120
 handed over to the city.

1765
02:10:01,120 --> 02:10:05,200
 But you are right, it is very confusing and nuanced and there are many roads where I would

1766
02:10:05,200 --> 02:10:09,400
 question whether what I was telling you is accurate or not because of those agreements

1767
02:10:09,400 --> 02:10:11,280
 that we have with TextDOT for maintenance.

1768
02:10:11,280 --> 02:10:12,280
 Okay.

1769
02:10:12,280 --> 02:10:18,040
 No, I very much appreciate that.

1770
02:10:18,040 --> 02:10:21,880
 I'll try to move to this quickly so we don't waste any more time.

1771
02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:29,520
 I mean, not that we've wasted time, but that we are expedient.

1772
02:10:29,520 --> 02:10:37,720
 Given that information, I'm going to move to table this until an event certain when

1773
02:10:37,720 --> 02:10:45,080
 the city can come back with information on whether safety improvements are planned and

1774
02:10:45,080 --> 02:10:54,360
 possible here, as that's an allowable motion on the main motion.

1775
02:10:54,360 --> 02:10:59,320
 Commissioner, we already have a motion on the floor.

1776
02:10:59,320 --> 02:11:00,320
 Yes there is.

1777
02:11:00,320 --> 02:11:05,160
 However, my understanding is that's a main motion and that the motion to postpone would

1778
02:11:05,160 --> 02:11:06,160
 be a...

1779
02:11:06,160 --> 02:11:08,400
 I will look to Hillary on that.

1780
02:11:08,400 --> 02:11:12,000
 I believe you're correct, but I can't say for certain.

1781
02:11:12,000 --> 02:11:14,600
 I'm Googling that real quick, I'm so sorry.

1782
02:11:14,600 --> 02:11:16,640
 That's quite all right.

1783
02:11:16,640 --> 02:11:19,480
 Commissioner Kutcher said, did you have something to add?

1784
02:11:19,480 --> 02:11:24,280
 Does that change your decision?

1785
02:11:24,280 --> 02:11:31,400
 It would change my decision on whether to support it, but again, if there's not interest

1786
02:11:31,400 --> 02:11:35,560
 in the commission, then this motion would either not get a second or fail and then we

1787
02:11:35,560 --> 02:11:44,120
 can vote on the main motion, which is perfectly fine, but let's take a little one minute with

1788
02:11:44,120 --> 02:11:48,600
 Jeopardy music while we're confirming.

1789
02:11:48,600 --> 02:11:51,840
 Question for Haley.

1790
02:11:51,840 --> 02:12:07,280
 If we do pass the motion that's currently in front of us to deny, they have to go back

1791
02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:08,280
 and...

1792
02:12:08,280 --> 02:12:12,760
 Oh no, does it still move on to city council and then what happens at the city council

1793
02:12:12,760 --> 02:12:13,760
 level?

1794
02:12:13,760 --> 02:12:18,680
 So they could choose either to go back to the drawing board and see if they can come

1795
02:12:18,680 --> 02:12:22,240
 up with another idea or they could choose to proceed to city council.

1796
02:12:22,240 --> 02:12:27,240
 It would require a super majority vote at council if you all have recommended denial.

1797
02:12:27,240 --> 02:12:33,680
 Motion to table can intervene.

1798
02:12:33,680 --> 02:12:42,320
 Okay, so that's my motion is to continue to an event certain when the city can come back

1799
02:12:42,320 --> 02:12:48,920
 with a plan for crossing McKinney if there is one or just confirm that there's not one.

1800
02:12:48,920 --> 02:12:54,520
 And for the public's benefit, the reason I'm making that motion this way is just that we

1801
02:12:54,520 --> 02:13:00,080
 don't have our transportation staff here because this was not necessarily anticipated, mostly

1802
02:13:00,080 --> 02:13:01,080
 my fault.

1803
02:13:01,080 --> 02:13:07,960
 So don't think anything badly of staff, but this is a way that I see if there is a reasonable

1804
02:13:07,960 --> 02:13:13,200
 plan in place already that would allow the applicant to continue with this application

1805
02:13:13,200 --> 02:13:20,520
 and address this issue and still move forward, whereas a motion to denial, to deny would

1806
02:13:20,520 --> 02:13:22,040
 trigger the other things that you've heard.

1807
02:13:22,040 --> 02:13:24,380
 So that's my reasoning.

1808
02:13:24,380 --> 02:13:29,000
 Is there a second?

1809
02:13:29,000 --> 02:13:31,240
 Not at this time.

1810
02:13:31,240 --> 02:13:32,240
 Yeah.

1811
02:13:32,240 --> 02:13:33,240
 I understand.

1812
02:13:33,240 --> 02:13:35,800
 Can we have some quiet?

1813
02:13:35,800 --> 02:13:36,800
 I understand.

1814
02:13:36,800 --> 02:13:38,160
 I'm just trying to express myself.

1815
02:13:38,160 --> 02:13:44,820
 This is the way these meetings go, ask that you would trust the parliamentary procedure

1816
02:13:44,820 --> 02:13:47,440
 and that we would get through this.

1817
02:13:47,440 --> 02:13:51,480
 I don't see anybody, Commissioner Riggs.

1818
02:13:51,480 --> 02:13:57,760
 I just have a comment, and this is just my own personal thinking without having transportation

1819
02:13:57,760 --> 02:14:02,760
 staff here, but the only way I think you could possibly make a safe crossing across McKinney

1820
02:14:02,760 --> 02:14:05,640
 is by putting in a traffic signal.

1821
02:14:05,640 --> 02:14:10,560
 I don't think the city has any plans of doing that anytime soon, nor would this development.

1822
02:14:10,560 --> 02:14:16,720
 So that wouldn't change my vote if we were to table it.

1823
02:14:16,720 --> 02:14:19,000
 I think my vote would still be the same.

1824
02:14:19,000 --> 02:14:20,000
 Understood.

1825
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:23,840
 And I don't see a second to that at all, so that motion fails.

1826
02:14:23,840 --> 02:14:31,120
 We're back to the main motion, which is a motion to deny with a motion and a second.

1827
02:14:31,120 --> 02:14:32,480
 Any other discussion?

1828
02:14:32,480 --> 02:14:43,600
 Seeing none, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1829
02:14:43,600 --> 02:14:46,100
 That item passes 6-0 to deny.

1830
02:14:46,100 --> 02:14:52,560
 So as Haley mentioned, the next step for this application is the applicant will decide whether

1831
02:14:52,560 --> 02:14:58,660
 to continue to counsel for a public hearing or whether they would like to go back and

1832
02:14:58,660 --> 02:15:00,520
 rework the application.

1833
02:15:00,520 --> 02:15:02,280
 Thank you.

1834
02:15:02,280 --> 02:15:05,280
 Any other ... Okay.

1835
02:15:05,280 --> 02:15:08,680
 That brings us to our last public hearing of the night.

1836
02:15:08,680 --> 02:15:34,680
 This is 5BZ25-25.

1837
02:15:34,680 --> 02:15:40,840
 Good evening, Planned Zoning Commission.

1838
02:15:40,840 --> 02:15:43,200
 My name is Matt Bourdine, Assistant Planner.

1839
02:15:43,200 --> 02:15:51,600
 I'm here to present the rezoning case Z25-0025A, ARCA MIMA.

1840
02:15:51,600 --> 02:15:59,600
 So this is a request to rezone approximately 5.4 acres from the Rural Residential Zoning

1841
02:15:59,600 --> 02:16:02,640
 District to the General Office District.

1842
02:16:02,640 --> 02:16:09,560
 This is located in the northwest part of town, with access off of Barthold Road.

1843
02:16:09,560 --> 02:16:14,960
 Currently there is a home on the site and some accessory structures.

1844
02:16:14,960 --> 02:16:19,400
 The surrounding area is largely undeveloped and is a mix of rural residential and light

1845
02:16:19,400 --> 02:16:23,240
 industrial zoning.

1846
02:16:23,240 --> 02:16:28,800
 This request was reviewed against our criteria for approval and was found to be in compliant

1847
02:16:28,800 --> 02:16:32,160
 with them, and so a little bit more into that.

1848
02:16:32,160 --> 02:16:37,280
 And with the General Office District, so this zoning district is intended for a variety

1849
02:16:37,280 --> 02:16:44,360
 of workplaces and those complementary uses, such as commercial, which is being proposed

1850
02:16:44,360 --> 02:16:51,400
 on the site, and is generally encouraged in areas that are near commercial centers of

1851
02:16:51,400 --> 02:16:54,680
 the city and employment areas.

1852
02:16:54,680 --> 02:17:02,000
 This geo-zoning district on top of office does allow for various commercial uses and

1853
02:17:02,000 --> 02:17:07,240
 is located near the I-35 corridor.

1854
02:17:07,240 --> 02:17:12,280
 The future land use designation for this area is light industrial.

1855
02:17:12,280 --> 02:17:17,880
 This was found to be in compliance with that designation, as is intended for light industrial

1856
02:17:17,880 --> 02:17:25,280
 activity, but also associated supporting uses, such as office, retail, as is being proposed

1857
02:17:25,280 --> 02:17:26,280
 here.

1858
02:17:26,280 --> 02:17:30,080
 Additionally, found it compliant with the economic goal of the city to ensure there

1859
02:17:30,080 --> 02:17:38,840
 is land available for development to ensure future economic growth.

1860
02:17:38,840 --> 02:17:43,960
 Another criteria for approval is that we do see there has been significant change in this

1861
02:17:43,960 --> 02:17:48,520
 area, ongoing as well as into the future.

1862
02:17:48,520 --> 02:17:54,720
 There's been certainly industrial development just south of here, as well as textile projects

1863
02:17:54,720 --> 02:18:04,440
 to expand I-35, as well as realign and expand our hold road.

1864
02:18:04,440 --> 02:18:09,320
 This request was notified according to city and state standards to the public.

1865
02:18:09,320 --> 02:18:14,920
 In addition, the applicant did hold public meetings or notified for public meetings no

1866
02:18:14,920 --> 02:18:15,920
 one attended.

1867
02:18:15,920 --> 02:18:23,760
 In addition, the staff has not received any responses for or against this request.

1868
02:18:23,760 --> 02:18:28,760
 Staff is recommending approval of the request of rezoning to the Geo District here to answer

1869
02:18:28,760 --> 02:18:31,760
 any questions.

1870
02:18:31,760 --> 02:18:34,400
 Any questions for staff at this time?

1871
02:18:34,400 --> 02:18:38,440
 I don't see any, so I will open the public hearing.

1872
02:18:38,440 --> 02:18:44,520
 I forgot to mention applicant is here and they do have some slides they'd like to present.

1873
02:18:44,520 --> 02:18:46,640
 Oh, I'm sorry, I misspoke.

1874
02:18:46,640 --> 02:18:51,480
 The hearing is still open from this item being continued from our previous meeting.

1875
02:18:51,480 --> 02:18:59,160
 I do have one card from the applicant representative, Ms. Amy Bissett from McAdams, and thank you

1876
02:18:59,160 --> 02:19:03,880
 for putting the new company name on the card so I remember it and don't misspoke.

1877
02:19:03,880 --> 02:19:04,880
 You're welcome.

1878
02:19:04,880 --> 02:19:07,840
 Good evening, Chair Pruitt, commissioners.

1879
02:19:07,840 --> 02:19:10,600
 I appreciate the opportunity to be in front of you this evening.

1880
02:19:10,600 --> 02:19:12,640
 I will be quick.

1881
02:19:12,640 --> 02:19:18,760
 I do want to start by saying that our client, the homeowner, is with us this evening.

1882
02:19:18,760 --> 02:19:22,840
 Art and Kathy Smucker in the audience, in case you do have some questions specifically

1883
02:19:22,840 --> 02:19:24,680
 for them.

1884
02:19:24,680 --> 02:19:28,560
 This is their homestead today.

1885
02:19:28,560 --> 02:19:34,920
 Just to give you a little bit of context on this property, I'm not going to rehash what

1886
02:19:34,920 --> 02:19:39,160
 Matt has already shared with you, but I do want to zoom out a little bit and just give

1887
02:19:39,160 --> 02:19:44,640
 you kind of the aerial context of the changes in this part of town.

1888
02:19:44,640 --> 02:19:52,360
 First of all, as you're all aware, the northwest side of Denton, on the west side of I-35,

1889
02:19:52,360 --> 02:20:00,680
 is designated in our comp plan as our future industrial area.

1890
02:20:00,680 --> 02:20:06,760
 As you can see on this aerial when you zoom out, it is adjacent to I-35 and we're seeing

1891
02:20:06,760 --> 02:20:13,160
 some of those types of development on the west side of 35, including Primoris on the

1892
02:20:13,160 --> 02:20:14,440
 north end.

1893
02:20:14,440 --> 02:20:17,600
 There's a cold storage facility south of that.

1894
02:20:17,600 --> 02:20:23,800
 The property immediately to the east of the Smuck property has been resoned, has been

1895
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:27,520
 annexed and rezoned for future industrial.

1896
02:20:27,520 --> 02:20:32,680
 Then there's the significant industrial development on the south as well.

1897
02:20:32,680 --> 02:20:39,120
 I do want to address, Chair Pruitt, you asked the question in work session about why we're

1898
02:20:39,120 --> 02:20:41,840
 only rezoning the piece.

1899
02:20:41,840 --> 02:20:46,840
 There's a large strip that's being left rural residential and that has already been acquired

1900
02:20:46,840 --> 02:20:53,340
 by TxDOT for the realignment and expansion of 1173 in the future, so it is not owned

1901
02:20:53,340 --> 02:21:02,000
 by our client and will eventually be right away on the future land use map.

1902
02:21:02,000 --> 02:21:06,240
 We did make a decision to go with general office over light industrial and wanted to

1903
02:21:06,240 --> 02:21:08,600
 share our reasoning behind that.

1904
02:21:08,600 --> 02:21:14,040
 The two zoning districts are very similar in terms of allowable land uses.

1905
02:21:14,040 --> 02:21:19,360
 A lot of overlap, including light industrial uses, can go in the general office zoning

1906
02:21:19,360 --> 02:21:20,360
 district.

1907
02:21:20,360 --> 02:21:27,520
 However, this is an entrance into Denton and general office zoning has more enhanced commercial

1908
02:21:27,520 --> 02:21:32,480
 design standards and we felt like that would be appropriate for this area.

1909
02:21:32,480 --> 02:21:37,000
 The home itself is intended to be repurposed.

1910
02:21:37,000 --> 02:21:42,880
 It sits up on a hill and it overlooks a beautiful floodplain and also overlooks a nice industrial

1911
02:21:42,880 --> 02:21:53,280
 park and I-35 and could be repurposed into a restaurant or jazz lounge.

1912
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:57,720
 There's a number of things where it would have a really nice view and be a good lunch

1913
02:21:57,720 --> 02:22:01,720
 location for employees of this area.

1914
02:22:01,720 --> 02:22:05,600
 Because of the size of this site, we were also proposing, again, this is just concept

1915
02:22:05,600 --> 02:22:09,160
 at this time and we do not have a developer with us today.

1916
02:22:09,160 --> 02:22:12,480
 This is the property owner who's initiating the zoning change.

1917
02:22:12,480 --> 02:22:19,240
 We've also envisioned a boutique hotel here as well as some inline retail.

1918
02:22:19,240 --> 02:22:22,840
 We did notice two virtual neighborhood meetings.

1919
02:22:22,840 --> 02:22:26,760
 We did have one person RSVP, but they did not attend.

1920
02:22:26,760 --> 02:22:29,940
 They are the property owner to the north and west of this site.

1921
02:22:29,940 --> 02:22:35,200
 We did follow up with them and share the information and make ourselves available if they have questions

1922
02:22:35,200 --> 02:22:37,480
 in the future.

1923
02:22:37,480 --> 02:22:39,000
 And that is all I have for you this evening.

1924
02:22:39,000 --> 02:22:40,720
 I'm happy to answer any questions.

1925
02:22:40,720 --> 02:22:41,720
 Thank you.

1926
02:22:41,720 --> 02:22:42,720
 Thank you.

1927
02:22:42,720 --> 02:22:45,760
 Any questions from the commission?

1928
02:22:45,760 --> 02:22:51,540
 I don't see any, thank you.

1929
02:22:51,540 --> 02:22:52,540
 This is a public hearing.

1930
02:22:52,540 --> 02:23:01,800
 If you'd like to speak on this item, you are certainly welcome to come down.

1931
02:23:01,800 --> 02:23:02,800
 Not seeing any.

1932
02:23:02,800 --> 02:23:08,480
 We will close the public hearing, open the floor for discussion or a motion or questions

1933
02:23:08,480 --> 02:23:13,000
 of staff.

1934
02:23:13,000 --> 02:23:15,200
 Commissioner Ketcherset?

1935
02:23:15,200 --> 02:23:21,320
 A motion to approve this item.

1936
02:23:21,320 --> 02:23:23,640
 Commissioner Garland?

1937
02:23:23,640 --> 02:23:26,560
 And I'll second approval.

1938
02:23:26,560 --> 02:23:28,280
 Okay.

1939
02:23:28,280 --> 02:23:33,160
 Any discussion?

1940
02:23:33,160 --> 02:23:39,120
 Sorry, were you?

1941
02:23:39,120 --> 02:23:41,760
 Okay.

1942
02:23:41,760 --> 02:23:46,040
 For the public, we're having a little bit of a humorous night this evening where Chair

1943
02:23:46,040 --> 02:23:52,240
 Pruitt is very good at misinterpreting arm and hand signals, so feel free to laugh at

1944
02:23:52,240 --> 02:23:53,240
 my expense.

1945
02:23:53,240 --> 02:24:04,560
 Yeah, I'll just say I appreciate the unknown future of a situation like this.

1946
02:24:04,560 --> 02:24:12,640
 I acknowledge that this is probably not the future that you saw 20, 30 years ago, whenever

1947
02:24:12,640 --> 02:24:15,400
 it was.

1948
02:24:15,400 --> 02:24:28,000
 We frequently get people who are surprised at that and can't find a path forward, so

1949
02:24:28,000 --> 02:24:36,440
 I appreciate that the applicant was able to work with staff and with the representative

1950
02:24:36,440 --> 02:24:49,300
 to find a way to move forward and give this area a potential for future use that does

1951
02:24:49,300 --> 02:24:58,080
 have enhanced right-of-way design standards and allows the current property owner to walk

1952
02:24:58,080 --> 02:25:03,360
 away not completely empty, so thank you for that.

1953
02:25:03,360 --> 02:25:08,200
 Any other discussion?

1954
02:25:08,200 --> 02:25:11,000
 Okay.

1955
02:25:11,000 --> 02:25:14,880
 Good.

1956
02:25:14,880 --> 02:25:20,400
 Not seeing any with a motion in a second.

1957
02:25:20,400 --> 02:25:22,520
 Any questions at the end there?

1958
02:25:22,520 --> 02:25:23,840
 We're good?

1959
02:25:23,840 --> 02:25:24,840
 Okay.

1960
02:25:24,840 --> 02:25:25,840
 I like looking at maps.

1961
02:25:25,840 --> 02:25:28,640
 We had the GIS guide earlier tonight.

1962
02:25:28,640 --> 02:25:30,440
 It's a very interesting area.

1963
02:25:30,440 --> 02:25:39,440
 I commend you for pivoting on ... I mean, that's good that you have foresight because I'm looking

1964
02:25:39,440 --> 02:25:42,840
 at ... It looks like the tiny home community is supposed to be built there.

1965
02:25:42,840 --> 02:25:49,880
 A church is just south of you, the convention center to the north, so to think futuristically

1966
02:25:49,880 --> 02:25:58,600
 and to come up with a different use, not many people would do that, so congratulations.

1967
02:25:58,600 --> 02:26:01,680
 Not seeing any more discussion with the motion in a second.

1968
02:26:01,680 --> 02:26:08,640
 I'll call for a vote on the board.

1969
02:26:08,640 --> 02:26:11,200
 That item passes 6-0.

1970
02:26:11,200 --> 02:26:22,240
 That brings us to our last item on the agenda, which is the matrix, I believe.

1971
02:26:22,240 --> 02:26:23,240
 Sorry.

1972
02:26:23,240 --> 02:26:25,960
 Navigated away.

1973
02:26:25,960 --> 02:26:33,200
 Yes, 6-A, the planning and zoning matrix.

1974
02:26:33,200 --> 02:26:37,360
 Yes, just a couple of updates for you all on items that you've heard that have recently

1975
02:26:37,360 --> 02:26:39,200
 gone to council.

1976
02:26:39,200 --> 02:26:45,720
 At their February 17th meeting, they did vote favorably for the comprehensive plan amendment

1977
02:26:45,720 --> 02:26:50,360
 and zoning for the commercial portion of the Hickory Grove development that's out west

1978
02:26:50,360 --> 02:26:52,600
 of town on 380.

1979
02:26:52,600 --> 02:26:56,920
 They've also considered a handful of annexation cases, those don't come before you all, but

1980
02:26:56,920 --> 02:27:03,320
 the city has initiated annexation of properties that have expired non-annexation agreements

1981
02:27:03,320 --> 02:27:07,560
 that have been lingering for a while, so we will be working with council on that, so you

1982
02:27:07,560 --> 02:27:12,240
 might anticipate some of those coming before you all in the future.

1983
02:27:12,240 --> 02:27:16,960
 With respect to the matrix itself, we will be, I believe, removing three or four items

1984
02:27:16,960 --> 02:27:21,560
 that we accomplished at work session this evening, so I'm happy to make any other changes

1985
02:27:21,560 --> 02:27:23,960
 that you all might like to see.

1986
02:27:23,960 --> 02:27:28,640
 Any questions or additions to the matrix from the commission?

1987
02:27:28,640 --> 02:27:35,880
 Yeah, just appreciate the expediency from some of the recent requests and turning around

1988
02:27:35,880 --> 02:27:36,880
 that GIS analysis.

1989
02:27:36,880 --> 02:27:42,720
 I know that's not an easy task.

1990
02:27:42,720 --> 02:27:44,640
 I don't see any additions to the matrix.

1991
02:27:44,640 --> 02:27:47,800
 That will bring us to item 7, concluding items.

1992
02:27:47,800 --> 02:27:52,000
 Anyone on the dais have concluding items?

1993
02:27:52,000 --> 02:27:54,920
 I just have a couple short ones.

1994
02:27:54,920 --> 02:28:04,560
 It is the March, which we're not in March, primary election season, early voting is ongoing,

1995
02:28:04,560 --> 02:28:10,080
 as well as I want to highlight, especially because several of our planning staff have

1996
02:28:10,080 --> 02:28:17,160
 been involved in this in the past, the Denton Evening Rotary is holding their winter warmer

1997
02:28:17,160 --> 02:28:27,760
 fundraiser for laptops for students this next Friday, March the 6th, to be aware of that.

1998
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:28,760
 Anything else?

1999
02:28:28,760 --> 02:28:29,760
 Commissioner Dyer?

2000
02:28:29,760 --> 02:28:39,240
 I would like to thank the city staff and the county of Denton County for their ability

2001
02:28:39,240 --> 02:28:45,780
 to listen to the residents that live out in my area off of Robeson Ranch Road.

2002
02:28:45,780 --> 02:28:54,160
 We had some new traffic signal go in and it caused quite the stir and it may have gone

2003
02:28:54,160 --> 02:28:59,840
 in a little prematurely and I think it was the city that went in and kind of changed

2004
02:28:59,840 --> 02:29:06,680
 it so they took out the left turn only lane and for right now, I'm sure it will get changed

2005
02:29:06,680 --> 02:29:13,020
 once HEB is finished and all of that, but thank you to the city staff and those powers

2006
02:29:13,020 --> 02:29:17,360
 that listen to the community.

2007
02:29:17,360 --> 02:29:20,200
 Very good.

2008
02:29:20,200 --> 02:29:25,140
 Not seeing any others at 7.45 p.m.

2009
02:29:25,140 --> 02:29:31,000
 With no objection, I will conclude and adjourn our meeting this Wednesday, February 25th.

2010
02:29:31,000 --> 02:29:31,200
 Thank you.