Dec 08, 2025 Historic Landmark Commission on 2025-12-08 5:30 PM

Well I can see we have a full deck so I'm gonna go ahead now and call the regular reading to order. It's 535. Our first order of business is a pledge to the U.S. flag. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. We're gonna need that one to switch. I unfortunately can't switch. Honor the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the United States of America, one state under God, one and indivisible. Play ball. That's a technological nightmare. This is gonna make me do the Texas flag without it. We didn't have that one. You do this. No, we don't have that one. Well, I'm a dirty Yankee. Alright, so our second order of business is to then hear presentations from members of the public. So does anybody feel about a comment or a form card? I'm sorry. Were you all wishing to speak? Yes, yeah. Okay, so procedure is we ask if anybody did a comment card, so if you haven't done a comment card, that's okay because then I ask if there's any other people who want this. There were not. Oh, we got a comment. Alright. Let me see if you want to squeeze it. Carly, do you want a time or do you want me to? Will you please sign? I'm on all time. Alright, thank you. So three minutes, so basically you get three minutes, chat about whatever's on your mind. If you don't mind, maybe come up to the podium. Alright, so just introduce yourself and then tell us what you're going to tell us. Sure, and I probably won't take up the whole three minutes. I'm going to have to speak up because I don't know where the microphone is. I'm also a soft speaker, so I apologize. My name is Jodie Ismert and I live on 819 Anna Street. And I know that I've read that you guys are considering expanding the historic district. And I would like for the new historic district to also include Oliver and Anna Street, my neighborhood. We've had conversations with people in our neighborhood who would like to see it part of the historic district. And I've been trying to work with the city to get new lighting and people want historic lights and the homes are from the 1940s. And I think it just makes sense to include us from Anna backs up to Carol, and so just from Carol all the way over, we're part of the downtown. It just makes it a little bit more uniform and it just kind of makes sense for my neighborhood as well since we're an 80-year-old neighborhood. And there's a lot of interesting history too. That neighborhood was built after World War II or right around that time, I should say, for the soldiers coming home. It's very much a blue-collar neighborhood. It's kind of stayed that way. And I haven't delved too much into the history, but I do know that it was built for soldiers coming home from World War II, which is very interesting. But yeah, I think that I would really like for you guys to consider, when you're making historic changes in downtown, please, please, please go ahead and lump our neighborhood into that district. So that's really all. I want to get on top of this because I know that you guys are discussing it. Sure. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, hold on a minute. Does anyone have any questions? Have you talked to your neighbors about this at all? Yes. Actually, I've talked to several neighbors, and then that's one of my neighbors. Okay. And then Bruce Burns is also a neighbor of mine, and we've had on-and-off conversations about it as well. So he's on all of those. He's one street over. But yes, like my direct neighbors, they're in favor. Okay. Because it's a neighborhood-driven thing. Yes. However, though, I've been asked to kind of try to organize, like, a neighborhood group. I'm going to be honest. I'm a widowed single parent, and I have very little time. But which is why I'm coming to you guys to say, yes, please, like, let's get this done, because it's the right thing to do for my neighborhood. Okay. I'm going to remind the commissioners that we're not posted for discussion on this item, but we're absolutely posted for taking contact information and maybe making plans for chair or somebody to get in touch for next steps. That sounds fantastic. Okay, great. So we're getting a comment card. But more questions are fine. We're just not going for deliberation. It's not an item on tonight's agenda. Excellent. Well, thank you, Jody. Any other questions? Okay, well, I appreciate you coming by, because very much in favor of as much historic preservation and protection as we can here in Denton. I would just reiterate that, like, one of the things is to try to assemble as many people in the area, because we aren't able to, like, come in and make dictates and wave magic wands. It's usually citizen-directed. So this is a fantastic first step, and hopefully we can build on it. And staff will be excited beyond belief. Good. I would say I'm the staff. I'm usually sitting there. Did you like to articulate how excited you are at this moment? I am very excited. I sound very stressed right now, but that's just because of the technical aspect. But I'm very excited, and so I'll definitely be in touch. I actually think you and I have been in touch before. Yes, I believe we have. It's been a while since we've designed our content, I believe. But it's good to see you. It's good to see you, too. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate you both coming. All right, so we'll move on to our next speaker. Close speaker. Oh, you want to speak? Please. I'm going to speak. I'm going to give you three minutes. Yes, come on. Okay. And I filled it out, as I don't know what it was in your work session, but that was the item up there. There. Pardon my absence, of course. Thank you. Okay. My name is Felicia Coleman. I live at 818 Anna Street. I bought my home in 2004. I jumped up and down when I saw it, because not only was it full of character and in the neighborhood that I wanted to be in, it was a great street, right? And I wasn't one of those people that came in and said, okay, I'm going to buy this home as my first home, my starter home, I'm going to sell this home. I bought this home as I bought my home, my forever home, right? And there are so many interesting, cute properties all along Bolivar and Anna that were built 80 years ago. Why doesn't that qualify as historic yet? I think it should be included when you look at Locust Adjoining, Bolivar, Anna. It makes sense because of the age of the neighborhood and because it really is a community. There may be owners that live there that have lived there long term, but even if it is a high rental area, there are many renters who have been there a very long time. They stay there. We do build a community as much as we can. We do communicate with our neighbors and try and inform them of what's going on at times. And we would like to fold more neighbors into the idea that this should be declared a historic neighborhood. We would get maybe the lighting that we deserve. We might get sidewalks in 2004 when I bought my home and a little later and still now. We don't have sidewalks. We would walk our children in the street with the strollers, right? But it is a beautiful neighborhood. It is a historic neighborhood. My home has a fireplace that was built by Mr. Payne, who is a dental legend that you look up. Jody Payne, who's the grandson of the man that built my fireplace and that came to my home to repair my fireplace and practically wept with his wife coming that he was replacing some mortar in the fireplace that his grandfather had built. And that's the kind of neighborhood I live in. And I definitely think based upon just the age of the homes, the community, those two blocks, it would be a travesty if it was not included in our historic district. Thank you. Any questions? You're on it. Any questions? It's the same question. So thank you very much for coming and to say that we're interested as a membership. So we'll be in touch about the next steps to follow. Wonderful. And that's part of the community. We don't know what to do for sure. Thank you. Excellent. We will thank you both. OK, I believe that's all the public comments. So let's head into our work session and let's head into our items for consideration. So our first item, HLC 25-063, we're going to consider approval of the November minutes. So we have a motion to say to accept the minutes as delivered and a second by Councilperson Adams. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? It passes. So next item is item B, HLC 25-060. So we're going to consider making a recommendation to City Council regarding a notice from the Texas Historical Commission regarding the nomination of the Little Chapel in the Woods, located at 415 Chapel Drive to the National Register of Historic Places. If I understood this correctly, we're basically voting on whether we want to tell the council that we support it. Is that accurate? Like, we don't have to write the statement or anything? No. I mean, Little Chapel in the Woods is like one of the rock stars. We get a deadly landmark. So, I mean, unless, does anyone have any objections to those? No, I don't think so. OK. Do we have our minutes? Yes. OK. Before we move into the actual presentations, we're going to switch over to Cluster. That's our only option. Yes. OK. Can we finish this item? Oh, sorry. I didn't know you were in the middle of it. Yeah, we're in the middle of it. I'm sorry. I will move that we say yes, we would love this City Council. OK. Is there any other discussion before we move on? Is there anything when you discuss about this just from a logistical standpoint? No. That comes later. So we have a motion and a second. So by a vote, those in favor say aye. Aye. Those opposed? Of course not. So absolutely yes. Heck yeah. We're excited about that. And can you pause the meeting and say that we want to wait back at 6 p.m. We need to switch over to Cluster. OK. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a pause before we address our next item so that we can make some technological adjustments for the upcoming presentation. So we're going to adjourn until 6 o'clock. So 10 minutes. We're going to take a 10 minute recess. And then we'll meet back for another action packed episode. All right. So great. Welcome back. We're live and ready for action. All right. So let's pick up where we left off. Items for consideration. C HLC 25 062. We're going to receive a report, hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding the draft of the Historic Landmark Commission educational checklist. Yes. So everyone should have a copy of the checklist in front of you. I thought it would be best kind of just to walk through it. And then if you all have notes, I can collect those notes at the end. But just kind of have a open dialogue kind of about what staff has put down in terms of just good information for you all to have essentially. So at the beginning just talks about the powers and duties where those are outlined in the development code. Someone might ask you all, you know, do you have that kind of authority to do what you're doing? And then talking about the different processes that are outlined within the development code as well. And then the first section is essentially the certificate of appropriateness calling out that section, providing the reason why why it's required for exterior work. And then one of the notes that I want to make sure is that, you know, people understand which application is required for that. So whether it's administrative or you all are going to review it, a certificate of appropriateness is always going to be required for that. And then just providing that important notes as to the reasoning why. Talking about who is reviewed and approved by HLC and then just what are the different types of work for certificate of appropriateness. I didn't want to make this packet long and lengthy. I don't want you all to have to take an entire packet to neighborhood meetings or whatever you might be. So just remember, I am trying to keep it as short as possible and streamline for you all. But also, if it's if it's not making sense to you all as a commission or you don't think it's going to make sense to the people you're speaking with, that's something kind of to have as discussion. And Commissioner Black started laughing. I feel like you're looking right at me when you say, oh no sorry. Sorry, I didn't mean that. Sorry, that was not directed. You happen to be looking at me. So, I guess, does anybody kind of just reading through this kind of trying to get a feel for it? One, is this helpful? Is this what you guys were expecting when it comes to kind of an educational checklist? Or is it, did I miss the mark entirely? Or just trying to get a feel. Okay, so one of the things we run into, just to elaborate a little bit, is I run into people who exactly this. They're like, oh, we'd like to have some type of historic recognition and designation. But then one of the things I think that doesn't get most people don't realize is then you can have a neighbor then like, oh, no, they're going to try to tell me what to do with my property. And I'm not into that. Right. And this is something, especially in Texas, we've run into a lot. Right. So part of it is to help people to understand in a real accessible way. Right. The appropriate appropriateness for what? Right. So that means it's appropriate for its being preserved. That is, so it keeps its looks. You'll notice that several of the things here, like demolition requests, new construction, relocation, exterior alterations, any work visible from the street. Right. So these are things from the street right from outside. So now inside things can get upgraded, things like that. Right. But I think this is one of the most common kind of misconceptions that we'll run into is like, wait a minute. So what does what and what does it keep you from doing what? Right. So this is fantastic, Cameron. I really appreciate it because this is something that's going to help. I think just be able to explain, like, you know, what is the process look like? Right. And so this gives them a very transparent document that says, hey, here's our review checklist. I mean, this is the review. This is this is what's involved with it. And rather than them get overwhelmed, just say, well, there's a couple of different. Right. Once you have historic designation, then there's the certificate of appropriateness. If you want to create a district designation, you're the things that you do. Right. And the places it goes through. And then, of course, we have already had some districts. Right. Square district. And then one of the things that I talk about in terms of incentivizing people to get them interested in it is these historic tax exemptions. Right. So this is the carrot definitely for trying to trying to encourage people to engage in historic preservation, because, again, the downside is, yes, you will have some restrictions. There will be things in order to maintain that historic designation. Right. But even if you want to replace the windows, is it affecting the appearance of it? Is it affecting its historic character? Right. And so it can add some steps, but at the same time, that's the incentive. So, especially, I would say the takeaway for us as people that help whenever people have questions, they hear your own historic landmark. They should know a little bit about these historic tax exemptions, because when they hear that they get tax exemptions, they get interested. Does that help for anything to add? No, I was going to say I have to take e-notes. I'm obviously relatively new, and I'm particularly new to a lot of this information, so I'm not going to lie when I was first looking it over. It felt like I wasn't following it at all, but that obviously might change just to make it more familiar with the things there. And I certainly understand the idea of trying to keep it short, but I'm wondering if we couldn't add a little bit at the end of this Q&A or like a, you know. Frequently asked questions. Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't have to give me a page long answer to them, but maybe just like a reference to the sections and how I might explain them to people, or what sections would be appropriate to explain to people. And if everybody, if no one else thinks that's a good idea. No, I think that's an excellent question. I'm also very new, and we've got folks here that have been doing it long enough. They know what the most common five or ten questions we're going to face are, so they can answer that. The only question I had going through, and I'm going to clear, this is a question, this is not a statement masquerading as a question. So, why is the square district the only district that we go into, you know, detail on specifically? So, yeah, we've got a specific section on the downtown square district, not on any of the other districts, and I was just curious as to the background on that. I think it's because it's so different. It's not technically a historic district. It's a design district. Gotcha. And there's a differentiation between the two. So, you all don't have jurisdiction over the district as a whole. So, I wanted to provide a description of the design district, or the dead and square district is a design district. It's a set of guidelines to preserve the look and feel of the square, but you all's jurisdiction comes only in the form of local landmarks within that district. So, that's the only reason I gave that kind of explanation, because it is just kind of odd. How did it turn out that way? Is that just the easier way to convince property owners to sign on to it? I was not here in 2019. I don't want to put Sean on the hot seat for that. I do believe it was to get owner buy-in without creating a historic district, just because that is a huge tourism area for us, and that's where we see a lot of economic development. That's where we get a lot of visitors, but I also think putting a historic district in, and Sean's going to elaborate on this a little bit with Southridge in a few minutes here, but I think it's a little scary when you say historic district. So, yeah, I think that was the main reasoning. The prejudices I was mentioning before. You'll hear this especially from business owners. Yeah, I put two and two together in my head, going out on a limb. So, if three or six months down the road, one of us is out in the wild and discovers what we think is a glaring omission in this list, how hard would it be to get something added after the fact? It's not hard at all. I'm working within a Word document, but I would ask for the FAQs, just because you all get different questions than I'm going to get asked, what would be really helpful before you all leave. I know Commissioner German does have to leave pretty quickly here, but if you all can just give me one or two FAQs that you think would be really good to have answers to that we should include, that would be really helpful for at least me to get started. Because I'm going to get certain questions, but I feel like in just normal conversations with members of the public, you all might get different questions. So, just that would help a good starting point for me at least. Well, of course, John and John are new, but I'm only a few months ahead of y'all. I was the new one until you became somebody, some of those of you who have served longer have more experience with actual questions you have been asked or the things that you've heard. First of all, is it a house or is it a neighborhood? What are we talking about here, right? So, are we talking about your home? Because that falls under one of these, because what you're seeing here is you're seeing, okay, so here's like a certificate of appropriateness, that's for an individual structure. And then you've got a neighborhood, right? And then you have like a district. And as our tonight's commenters are demonstrating, right? When those district lines are kind of drawn up, it's, I don't want to misspeak, but a lot of times it's for the lowest level of barrier to get that district to happen, right? How many businesses, because the threshold is, what is it again? What's the percentage on the district? So you have to have over 50%. That doesn't sound like a lot, but if you have people who own businesses that don't live here or building right, then suddenly getting 50% of those structures can become difficult. I'm just imagining, I'm assuming that the kinds of questions that we would get from the public are less about, are less from people who are already in a house or neighborhood that is recognized and more kind of like maybe questions that might have come out of a conversation with them, which is, you know, what can we do, right? Like, how do I do this, right? And I'm very, very new, but my guess is it's like, you're going to need to start knocking on doors. You're going to need to get your neighbors together because we can help you, but we can't help that. Yeah, that's really important. And then it might, the answer might also include a basic explanation of the process that they would have to go through, right? Which is definitely the FAQ thing I think would probably have to address exactly this scenario is how to get conversation started in your neighborhood. Right, because it's a very different vibe whenever, hey, I'm with the city and the historic landmark preservation officer, and I'm here to help. A lot of times there's like a, whoa, what's going on? I'm about to get fined, am I going to, right? There's that initial real skepticism right about it. But this is where the community aspect becomes hugely important because then if you've got neighbors talking to neighbors, and they have enough to be able to say, well, hold on, there's tax incentives for it. And yes, there are some restrictions, but there are also other incentives that can help us get money back for making improvements, things like that. But yeah, the part of how to get a discussion started in your community. So maybe, okay, so maybe then the FAQ, so it's more kind of like a general process. How do I get started? Where do I begin? It could be a separate document if that would make it easier. That might be easier. I think having this as its own standalone checklist so that you all know what role you all play. This is definitely good for the commission, helps with some of the public stuff, but I think a general FAQ of how do I get started? Where do I begin? I think we have some of those general ones once they're a little bit further on the historic destination webpage. We've done FAQ, but it's more so like, oh, I want to get designated. Where do I look for historic property research? It's not necessarily like, oh, I'm so new to this, don't even know what I'm doing, what is this? So I think that would be a good resource. And then once that gets finalized, we can also put that on the destination webpage as well. I feel like I saw some of that on display at the Southridge meeting with the other folks at the end being like, okay, what do we do now? And both of you being like, well, it's your neighborhood, you take the ball and run with it. And I feel like we didn't necessarily click with them entirely. We were like, well, yes, but how do we do that? And that is kind of the gap we're trying to figure out how to build here, right? We have to look for guidance when we need to be showing them how to take initiative. Well, they want someone to do it for them. I mean, that's... We can't replace staff, right? That's the gist of it. And we just need to figure out the best ways to support them that keeps them going. I think this is a very, very good start in terms of something that is succinct. And yeah, I agree with John. I don't know that at first blush when they're looking at it, they're like, wait, what does this mean? I'm not that familiar with that. But I mean, I'm looking this in a way to be able to have something to point to. And I mean, of course, each one of these, as Cameron points out, right, there's more. There's a lot of detail you can get into, but you don't want their eyes to glaze right out of the shirt. No, no, I think that makes sense. It's all in the city. It didn't let her head, so it's official. Carry some weight, yeah. I think that's a very useful message. So I guess from staff's point of view, I'll make some adjustments to this, but then I will create a separate document with an FAQ that kind of goes into layman's terms of essentially where do I start? Like, I'm very fresh and new to this. Let's start from the very beginning and go through that process. And then I can bring that back in the future. Maybe another question that could be answered on that is, you know, property owner walking up to him saying, you know, all I hear is bad things that you guys are going to regulate me out of my house or whatever, you know, and how we can soften that. So this is a little bit specific to that. Can we get some plug and play language on how it's shown in the long-term housing as part of historic districts? You know, a lot of people seem to not know that, but I also know exactly how to phrase that when I talk to people. So, you know, if you give me some sample language, that might be something that staff's direction, you can let us know if we want to do like a mini word session or something on that. We might be able to test drive this neighborhood, this new district. We might be able to hear from them and basically use that as kind of a template to be like, what kinds of questions are they asking? What kind of gaps of information are needed here? Right. So we're able to both do it. I mean, obviously, we want something to start with, but yeah, absolutely. But the idea is that we can build it as we're also kind of doing it, testing it. So we have a little, little bit of a test drive pilot. Yeah. Your discretion. Thank you. Any other next questions? Okay. So we're going to move on to the next item for our work session. Item HLC 25-6161. Receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the results of the Southridge Historic Research Survey report. Sir. Good evening Chair and members of the commission. Sean Jacobson, Associate Planner here to talk about the Preserving Southridge Historic Resource Survey and the presenting of that to the neighborhood. So just to give you all kind of where we're going to go through a hit on a little bit of the background of this report, the process underwent, the results and recommendations we got from that, some feedback from the neighborhood meeting and what our next steps are looking like. And just as a fun example, this is the Southridge was originally laid out. I get that. What year is that one from? I believe it's, can you read it, 1964 I think? Yeah. That's pretty incredible. And the things they found, it's pretty amazing. The whole report is worth going through. So just as background, obviously this comes from the Historic Preservation Plan, which was approved by council, identifying a survey of Southridge as a priority for our city. The goals were to identify those opportunities for potential national and state designations, as well as potential local individual properties and perhaps a local historic district, if the residents decided that was something they wanted to pursue. We also wanted to identify historic themes, encourage historic preservation, and take advantage, you know, make it possible for folks to take advantage of some of those economic benefits and tax credits. So we staff just went through process to select SWCA as consultants. Council authorized that, so spring 2025, and they got started almost right away. So we had a public meeting in person to kick that off, to kind of let the neighborhood know what we were going to be doing, and it really helped them understand what it just was and what it wasn't. And that was also an opportunity to collect information. So folks brought blueprints, pictures, that was an opportunity to identify people who could actually give some of those coral interviews. So great opportunity there. I had that at San Houston School. Following on that, so April 28 to May 2, they were actually out in the neighborhood first doing the windshield survey, just kind of going through that whole area. As you can see here, based on just on DCAD data, which is, we can tell generally these were build dates are older, newer, they were going to check all of it, knowing that in the end, most of the focus was going to be up in this area here. But checking everything, because I didn't want to see if there were summaries down here where something might really pop up as, wow, we didn't expect it, but that's significant. And then there was the more detailed reconnaissance survey where you're going through and photographing those different sites and looking for those key resources on each property. From there, then they were able to do the oral history interviews, so with three different presidents, and then went back to a lot of the additional research, you know, that's just the dating and putting things together. Got us a final survey report after some drafts and back and forth in October. And then on the fourth, we had our in-person presentation of the neighborhood to share with them. So research results, just kind of fun, so you can see here where it began. So Joe Stiles, the guy who had this vision for Southridge and really wanted this beautiful, unique, treeed neighborhood, partnered with Robin Llewellyn from City Forward to design that spiral design as a way to calm traffic. And possibly make people go crazy at the intersection. But really looking for those key aspects that you see, the large lots, the underground utilities, a lot of trees, every lots can have lots of trees. He had that vision, and because it's that one man with a vision that he could bring, you get that connected feel throughout the neighborhood there. And you can see they're advertising, we're near, you can get to Denton, you can get to Dallas, you can get to Fort Worth. It's near everything, and yet you're going to have this sense of seclusion. And he actually had kind of this cool showroom where he had the neighborhood laid out. And we'll actually show you, they found that building where people would come to and walk in and be like, all right, welcome, let's talk about your new house in Southridge. So just some of the cool things here, so the Southridge area, places that are still there, even the multifamily, the legendary Oaks Apartments, even the multifamily was designed to be unique. It was fit with the era, got the Tiki Garden, because that was a huge thing back then. One example, and this was actually one that was brought to that initial meeting, folks at 2000 Holly Hill Lane, the Guyer House, designed by Gerald Eugene Stone. They actually brought their blueprints to show, so it has that Port Crochere folds in there, and it has this cool staircase. And they were actually able to get an image of what that looks like on the inside. It's a very unique design, so as you're coming in, park your car, enter, and then you have this cool staircase up to second floor. So just amazing things. It's that era, right? Yeah, and this goes to the value of doing this, that these things aren't lost. If we get it now, we can preserve these for future generations, just to understand what the vision was and how that came about. So some of just the fun stories they had, stories about neighborhood-wide hide-and-seek games, parents and families at that community pool. So the South Bridge has kind of that iconic pool, folks would be a member of. And then I think they said they worked out some deals with when you had to pay so that it was reasonable for everyone. And then another more recent resident who moved in was just drawn to how unique the character was and the community plan. Things that drew people there back in the '60s still draw them in because it is so well preserved. So the overall results that came out of this. So we started here with kind of the basic information you can get on DCAT. Following that, now we have the very detailed information you see here. So the tan is all of our contributing properties. The red are our non-contributing, where it's been changed too much, where it can't be considered contributing. Outside of the black line is really, that's where it's not eligible for the districts. The black line helps us see if a district was, if the residents decided they wanted to pursue a district, within that black line would be where we would be looking. And then there are actually four individual properties identified here. There are themselves eligible potentially for national designation if they chose to pursue that. We'll talk about those in more detail in a minute. But just kind of cool to see from high level to, all right, we have detailed information, which again, that's why we do this. So we have 792 historic age resources. So, and that can be, you might have three resources on one property recorded with 590 records. 554 buildings and six districts and one object documented. These resources, so we've got single dwellings, multiple dwellings, businesses, and then the park. The Joe Skowels Park, and that's actually Joe Skowels. What else is there named after? What was the object? The object, I believe, was, and I'll see if it ends up here, it is this, which is actually a wood. It's out in the woods, and it actually, they lay out, you can see the neighborhood was there. It was like a sign, and they went and tracked it down. It was just in the woods. It was back in the woods, yeah. It was kind of decayed, but they found it. So again, it's kind of cool. We send professionals out and find some cool stuff. You can see kind of the dates of construction, so primarily 1970s, some 60s, and then obviously some 80s. Ranch was most common, followed by the French Ranch, which has those hipped roofs and those iconic extra additional pieces. The real high windows here, floor to ceiling versus the facial windows. The themes they identified, of course, community planning and development. Those really unique, you know, the unique spiral design, the big lots, the greenery, just those things. It's like, hey, you're not going to see this everywhere. That's important. But also persons, so Dr. Pauline Mack with Lady Bird Johnson doing a study that was benefiting NASA. I mean, that's incredible, and there are a number of people within there. It's like, wow, okay, there are so many incredible people that lived here. And then obviously for some buildings, criteria in C for architecture. Do you think her research was used to make Tang? I don't know. Did I lost stuff? Yeah. No, Tang, they used her research to make Tang. Sorry, if anybody remembers what Tang is. So some of the key recommendations from this. Southridge is recommended as eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places, should they choose to pursue that, under both criteria A and criteria C. So for the overall community and also for those that architecture. No state designations recommended. Local designation recommended if residents choose to pursue that, whether for an individual property or for a district. There are definitely properties that would be eligible for that. So kind of to break down here, parcels is the actual properties, resources, and buildings on them. Sometimes we have a multiple parcel property or multiple resources on a property. But 80% of the houses are contributing, which is great. Very high number. These are the four properties that were specifically identified for their value as potential national designation. So the Southridge showroom, it's a large office now, but that is where you go. I want to buy in Southridge. You go in, you meet Joe Skiles. He would show you your options. And that was kind of the headquarters of the whole operation. You have the Joe and Katie Skiles house, which was their 1967 ranch house, which I've heard has an incredible view. Because when you plan the neighborhood, you get the best view. The Southridge area, so the Phelps house, the Shed-Sell house, that really unique one that was shown in the beginning, the advertising, really cool design there. And then the Southridge edition model home, so the actual model home for the neighborhood, which is a storybook ranch style. So four of those, significant for different reasons, by the architecture, the person, or the role in the neighborhood. So what does this mean? National register would be an option if it was pursued. Of course, as you all know, that doesn't affect their property rights. But what our consultants did identify is that could be a source of protection if there was ever an effort to expand 35E in that direction because the feds have to pay attention to those designations. There's also some benefits for rental properties. So if you had a rental property and wanted to designate it, it could be taxable. Again, up to the neighborhood. Recommended next steps, if the neighborhood wanted to pursue nominating Southridge for the national register, it would be a great opportunity. And then also just to determine the neighborhood's interest, if they want to pursue a local landmark for individual properties or perhaps a local historic or conservation district. So it would be years of resources for them. I did want to discuss kind of some highlights, the feedback we received when we presented this. So we did confirm to the residents that national register district would not impact what they can do to the exterior of their home. It's just, it's basically just acknowledging that this has national value. Do local historic district or individual designation standards impact the inside of your house? No. As we discussed a minute ago, in order to create a local historic or conservation district, you have to exceed 50%. And staff strongly advise that if residents want to pursue that, they should be well above 50%. That's a better idea. Would non-contributing properties be impacted by local district standards? That would be up to the standards written by the residents themselves. I think we'd be encouraged to consider if you're non-contributing, perhaps you should not be impacted by the standards, but that would be up to the residents. The majority were skeptical about a local historic district, the restrictions, cost impacts. There were a number who were interested in conservation districts. They liked the idea that protection from developers potentially buying up and replacing the existing housing with larger denser housing didn't fit. So some general high-level limitations for some folks were potentially of interest. They were also interested in doing more oral history documentation. They did note that organizing to create a district could be difficult because they don't have a whole neighborhood association. So a historic preservation officer would work with them to help them understand they could do a smaller district. It's like, all right, we've got 20 people that want to do this, 30 people want to do this, we could do a smaller district. They could also work on growing a neighborhood association over time and then pursue whatever district they're interested in once they kind of built that up. We did also want to address just some frequently asked questions so you all can be aware, kind of some key things. Are we taking any official action as a city based on this? No, we're doing nothing. If the residents choose to act, then we are happy to help them, but if they don't, we will not. Are we proposing a local historic district? Also, no, that is the residents could pursue one if they wanted to, but they would have to get a majority of their property owners in that area on board. And it would have to go through all of you and the planning and zoning commission and city council. No residents have taken any action to pursue any district at this time. There is no proposed pending or any other kind of district right now. What is the primary purpose? The primary purpose is to document history so that it's not lost and to provide a foundational step to identify properties which may be eligible. Say, hey, in the future, we at least have this information ready for you if you're interested. It's not being lost. Does this mean the historic or conservation district will create it? No, and the example is we did one of these for the Idiots Hill neighborhood. There were recommendations. They choose not to pursue them, and you will note nothing has happened. No Idiots Hill district or anything of that kind. So it really is in the hands of residents to carry that forward should they choose to. So finally, what we have available, there's a final recommendation map. Obviously, the report will be provided, and that will be available online once we're done finalizing it. And happy to answer any other questions you all may have. Yes, sir? So I was raised in Southridge, basically from 1980s, 1984. I was all over that neighborhood as an adolescent and a child. And I had never even heard of the lot sale sign before, which is pretty remarkable. And I would expect very strongly that's the case for 95% plus percent of the residents. I also hear that it sounds like it's not in a very good way. So I was going to ask, is there any possibility of any sort of triage, conservation, or interpretation for that before it goes away completely? And also, just purely as an objective aside, I want to make the observation that anything that was done to that sign in terms of interpretation or conservation would probably lend a buzz and momentum to any efforts that the Southridge community wants to make in terms of the conservation or historic district. That's a good point. It's a good point. Budget is needed to do that. It wasn't included as part of this budget, obviously, or for the historic resource survey. But budget, neighborhood effort to preserve it and have it be representative of the community. You know, I don't know what private property it's on. It could have been on private property and they ran into the owner who allowed them to look at it because they said they ran into a neighborhood owner. The consultant didn't just go on that property. They were invited to go look at the sign. Mitch would have information probably. Yep. Yep. So I think I would definitely recommend getting in contact with the neighborhood and just say, hey, this is really big interest. We should preserve this of some kind. But otherwise, I would not say it's a priority of staff. Just because it's not in my to do. It was not a city council directive. It would have to really get something going. It would need to be more direction from city council. So if you all feel very strongly about it, I would even recommend honestly having some people in the neighborhood say we think this needs to be conserved and bring that to city council for the two minute or I guess the public speaking. What's the word on the comment portion at the beginning? So I think that would even be a good opportunity. I'm not necessarily going to the council meeting and said that for seven hours, but I mean, that does seem really interesting. And I don't know the full extent of its condition and what to what extent it can be. But I mean, like, moving it to the public park, it can be kept outside. Yeah. If I understood this correctly, it's not that far from Joe Scott's part. Yeah. Yeah. It's not. It's not far. It's right when you come in on Pennsylvania Drive in that wooded area, like right behind the commercial district. But I would definitely recommend if someone wants to come here and speak with it and then bring it to council saying we've spoken at HLC. This is it just helps kind of with that momentum and that support. But unfortunately, staff does not have any direction at this time. Actually, the answer could have been a lot worse. You could have said there's nothing we can do. It's going to rot. So a couple points of clarification, if you don't mind, Sean, can you back up the slide where you show contributing and non contributing? Are you all clear on what that means? Yes, although I had a question. I did have a question about that. So when we were talking about potential historic districts, we were just talking generally about how those boundaries are drawn and whatnot. Let's just imagine that they wanted to create a historic district here of that entire original neighborhood. Would you be able to have these exact boundaries just because there's these blocks of red, particularly on the outskirts? So would it have to be drawn around that or is that like sufficient? Are you stating like what the boundary provided? Would it have to be copycat like exactly these boundaries? It would have to, but could it even be these boundaries just because there's so many non contributing houses, particularly on the outskirts? Right. No. Yeah. Obviously, there was a reason for our consultant doing that, but I would state that if we felt so obliged. The reason they did it is because when you're coming up with a historic district, you don't want to be coming in and making a sawtooth design. No, no, no. I totally understand that. I just don't know what the rules are in terms of all those non contributing. So it was because it did not fall within that period of significance, but they wanted to incorporate the whole street because it was just easier. No, I'm sorry. When we were talking about the other potential districts and you were talking about some of the non contributing ones or how something like that, I got the impression that while you could have some non contributing, you would not include inside the boundary large blocks of non contributed. Correct. And so I'm just curious if and this is a hypothetical, but if the neighborhood came forth and wanted to create a district, I assume we would have to redraw some lines. Yes. Yes. I would definitely recommend doing some boundary changes. My apologies. I misunderstood. So follow up question. So if there are non contributing, is there the possibility that they could be rehabilitated to be contributing? That is, let's say a new owner came in and decided that they wanted to, it's going to need some renovations anyway. And they want to make it look like the old days. They want to take it back to that. Would that then change the contributing status or would just simply the date of those changes preclude them from? So usually once you're non contributing, you just remain not contributing because even if you're restoring it, as you stated, you're using new material or these properties currently as is retained so much original material that that's why they're considered to be contributing. The ones that are not contributing have just been changed so drastically that they would still have to go under huge alterations to be brought back to their original. Regarding the national registry or whatever it's called, is that something that the neighborhood themselves would would be responsible for initiating? Yes. Is that something that we would initiate? Yeah, that's something they would initiate. I believe it's two thirds of the property would have to sign on to someone have to go out and kind of get those things to show that at least two thirds of the property would interested in that. Good question. I had the same question. I was like, okay, so yeah, they would specifically be working with the county and state. They would not be working with the local jurisdiction. They would not be working with local the city. So that's essentially where this would come in. So when there would be a nomination that came in, we would get a I would receive a letter and then you all would have a discussion and then make a recommendation to counsel. So if I'm understanding correctly, there's not really anything actionable out of this for us. Essentially. Yeah, no, this is really something for the neighborhood to take action on. Yeah. Yeah. Except for you all to be aware of that it certainly starts to have more people coming forward that probably have a good basis for that. Yeah, there's really no step other than if you all be aware of real trick is the two thirds. Right. So you I mean, that's a lot of work that would that would entail a lot of like feet on the street, getting signatures or is there any downside to getting the national registry because it doesn't come with any of the property restrictions. Right. Correct. There's no downside. There's just no protection standards unless there's federal funding involved. So if people want to come in and start demoing, they can. Right. No, I just mean, there's no is there a real reason why a property owner wouldn't sign it if confronted with that. I mean, some of them might just consider her munchings or something. I think the main thing that we heard about just in general regarding any type of districting was concerned that it would affect people's insurance premium on their homes and that it would make it more expensive. Staff stated in that meeting as to the consultants that they haven't heard such a thing that you wouldn't either become because some people are saying, well, I might not get coverage at all. I've never heard that you would never get coverage if you had a historic property, because that means the whole East Coast would not. And then, you know, I think staff needs to do more research and about whether how much it would raise it. There was preliminary research done today that it could raise it, you know, 35 to 100 percent, but that's not me talking to any insurance, you know, folks here on the ground. So I think that's just we need to do further deep dive. But from people who are in this realm who do historic preservation, no one has ever had that question come up. And so that was definitely something that kind of stumped staff and the consultant in the meeting last week is that we had never heard of that. Maybe that's a concern. Whatever the answer to that question is could be included in the FAQ. Yeah. Yeah. That will definitely take a little bit of research and cold calling and everything. But it also we from what we're understanding, we think it's a state thing. Just based off initial discussions with other folks in the preservation, because I talked to some people in McKinney and they kind of agreed with staff and consultants that it might just be a state thing. Well, I know I've had questions on that before, where it's like because on the one hand, you say, oh, this historic designation becoming a district is going to increase your property values. Well, your value increases, then your insurance on that value will also increase. Right. So you like one answer, but don't like the other. Well, I guess the question is, is that the only increase? Correct. Or are there any other increases associated with taking? Yeah. Any other questions for Mr. Jacobs? There's great work here. You guys found a lot of quotes up and very happy with the folks that we brought in. They had a lot of love for the neighborhood. There we go. We've already seen more of Sean. He's going to start making more presentations and he's actually going to be running next month's meeting. Yeah. All right. All right. Well, then we'll move on to the next item on our work section. Item B, that's HLC 25-058. We're going to receive a report, hold a discussion and give staff direction on the Historic Landmark Commission's request for local historic designation of eligible historic properties. Does anybody have any properties? All right. Hearing none, we'll move on to item C, HLC 25-059, hold a discussion regarding the Historic Landmark Commission project matrix. I have two requests, I guess. Both the thing on university rock singing bobbers. Yes, I would, I would, I would request that that be put on the agenda with its preferred actual name and not whatever. Parts by station. And then I would also request that I think it may actually be on the schedule. I'm not sure, but the, the locust thing be put back on. Yes. January 12, 2026. That's when it's coming back. When is it? Creation of subcommittees for the potential creation. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I have it for just subcommittees. So if you want me to add additional things, we just need to make sure that's I think that's the nature of what I would be requesting is to is to finalize our plan in terms of subcommittees. And then, and then probably who's going to be in what? Okay. Yep. So then that can fall under the subcommittee discussion. If I could ask a question of clarification. If the commissioner wanted to go do research on some of these properties during the holiday break, while they don't have as much to do as they do at other times, would there be any reason why that wouldn't be appropriate? Given that is more than fine. Yes, that's more than fine. The only ask I have right now is so that's fine. But going back to park place, I need to know specifically what you want to discuss as part of the matrix. Well, I think I don't want to put your foot. I wanted a little bit more of an understanding of the costs that were listed down there because I'm not sure exactly what all that means. So I guess, I guess maybe the agenda I would want is further discussion on whether there is enough historical merit to warrant action on our parts. And then and then maybe further discussion on the actual potential costs associated with it. Just because I don't know what a cubic yard is in terms of that. You know, the way I initially read it, it looks like it's going to cost about $60 to preserve it. I'm pretty sure that's not right. I went out and took measurements. I'll be happy to share those with you. Okay. Well, no, I just I didn't know. I mean, I know what a cubic yard is, but I don't know exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, so I don't know what a cubic yard is. I know how many cubic yards that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Went out the tape measuring camera on how many cubic yards. Well, just remember, we're not posted. I know it's exciting. Commissioner Black did send me additional information. So I think a lot of the information that will be a discussion. Perfect. Commissioner Black. So, no, no, no, no, he sent it to me. Further discussion of whether we want to take action on that. Okay. Anything else that you all want to add to the matrix or and I will adjust the new requests to be more of like a ongoing living FAQ document that we can kind of adjust over time as you all start this kind of next process with the North Logan Street. So I'll get an initial one started. But as you all start kind of that next process, if there's additional questions, we can add some more. I have a request. I don't think it's on the matrix. But it's kind of discussion before it's part of that. The didn't plan. I have questions about the women's building. I'd like to get some either put it on the matrix or get it be able to next session. Maybe get some information on the women's history building about its lease expiration and what's coming up. But I was told the lease. The lease was just renewed. And that never came in front of us. Never came in front of historic landmark. No. Well, I'd like some information update on that for sure. I've not heard anything. So, okay, I will inquire. That's true. And that's a clear angle mission. Well, I don't know. But I was told it. Well, I'd like I'd like to hear where you can find out and report back on the status of that. So more of an informational stuff report for information. I'm sorry. Well, we'll start with the informational staff report. Okay. It might be very short, but I will see what I can find and I will share that with you all. Okay. All right. Are there any other items? Any other board have any other business to discuss? If they're all concluding items, I'm going to go ahead and ask now just because of the holiday season. I imagine that email communication is probably going to get a little trickier for y'all as you get busy. Do any of you currently know if you will be able to attend the January 12th meeting? Yes. Yes. I'll be there. Yes. Thank you. And I assume you're checking Commissioner Black. Yes. Thank you. Well, actually, it's a cohort excuse to play Warnel. As near as I can tell, I'm free and clear for the 12th. Perfect. And I will still send out the email per usual. I just wanted to go ahead and get a head count for who I could. I will probably not check my email in time to notify you before you. And I didn't want to put it that way, but you know. Thank you. Thank you. Any other items to discuss? All right. Well, there's no other business. I adjourn the meeting at six fifty one. Thank you, commissioners. And wish you all happy holidays.