Nov 10, 2025 Historic Landmark Commission on 2025-11-10 5:30 PM

We have a quorum, so we are going to get started at 5.31 p.m. Thank you all for being here. I'll call the meeting to order if you would stand with me for the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state, under God, one nation, indivisible. Leave it up. I was just going to wait for the news. Alright, do we have any citizens that filled out a card to speak? Alright, then we're going to move right along. I have no cards. So we are moving to item 3A, number HLC 25-057. We're going to consider the approval of the October 13th, 25 minutes. So I trust that you all had an opportunity to look over those. If so, are there any questions? I move approval as second. Okay, we have approval motion and a second. All in favor, raise your right hand. Alright, I'm going to abstain. Alright, moving to item 4A, number HLC 25-055. On our agenda is to receive a report from the Community Services Department on the minor home repair, rental repair, and the neighborhood empowerment program designed to help improve Denton neighborhoods. So I just wanted for those who are not in attendance last meeting, this is kind of, this is a request of the Historic Landmark Commission in our October meeting to just get a little bit more additional information since I'm not the expert on the area. I know they're going to be discussing this evening. But I just wanted to give you all that reminder. Thank you so much. Good evening everybody. My name is Louisa Garcia and I work over in Community Development. I've been there for about 34 years. I started when I was a baby. Yes, we were invited here today. Also with me, I'm sorry, is Alma Espino. She actually manages the day-to-day activities for our minor repair program and our rental repair program. And I oversee the program, so I just wanted to give you a little bit of information at the request of your meeting last time. But we'll be talking today about the minor repair program that the City has and also the rental repair program. I'm going to talk a little bit about both programs actually are repair programs that we can assist with $24,500 in assistance for the repairs. They're a little different, but I'll go through that difference in a bit. These are some of the eligible type of repairs that we do under our program. As you can see, it's $24,500. That doesn't go very far, so we do concentrate on electrical, plumbing, roof repair or replacements, HVAC repair or replacement, and accessibility. We might do some cabinetry work. We might do some additional work inside the house, but because it's only $24,500, that doesn't take us very far. Under the minor repair program, the program has been in existence since 1986. It is currently funded with federal HUD funding. For right now, we're receiving $468,647 in federal funding from the U.S. Department of HUD. It's called Community Development Block Grant, for those that are familiar with that. And this is for the '25 program year, which just started October 1st. This program has assisted over 800 households since its inception. 43% have been elderly households that we assisted in aging in place. We also have more of the -- most of the -- about 50% of the households we've assisted have been 50% below the HUD median income. And in a minute, I'll give you an example of what that means. Under the minor repair program, it's a maximum of one repair per fiscal year. So, yes, they can come to us. We can help them with their HVAC and maybe their water heater, maybe a few other things inside the house. And then if they have something else major, then they would have to wait the following year, unless it's an emergency, such as maybe leaking roof or maybe HVAC. We get a lot of those -- some of our budget gets set aside for those HVACs for the summer and maybe heaters for the summer. For the winter, we want to make sure that we have sufficient funds for those type of critical repairs. So, the assistance is in the form of a grant. They don't pay it back, but it's just a one-time grant, one time a year. The applicant must own and occupy the property as their principal residency. The property also has to be located inside the city limits of Denton. And then the applicant income is qualified based on the HUD median income. I'll give you an example, a family for no more than $93,850. We have to use the area median income for the Dallas, and that usually is -- end up being higher than what Denton's is. But that's required by HUD for us to do that. Under the rental repair program, it is a program that just started back in 2024. It is currently funded with general funds with a budget of about $100,000 every year. We've assisted to date three property owners for four units. Since that program is just in its pilot infancy stage, we're still trying to work out what works, what doesn't, so we're making improvements as we go along. We don't get a lot of applications for that, or if we do, the repairs are just too massive, and not even with our assistance could we make a dent in those rental units. Rental repair program assistance is provided in exchange for renting the property at an affordable rate to income-eligible tenants so the landlord doesn't have to meet the income requirements. They're in exchange for us repairing the rental units. They're renting it to add an affordable rate to income-eligible tenants. It's a five-year forgivable loan per unit. The applicant must hold a fee-simple title. That means that it can't be, like, I can't even remember, where they own it, it's like a third party, somebody else owns it, and they are doing a loan where they don't have title to the property. It has to be, they have to have title to that property. We can do one to four units building located within the city limits of Denton. Rental properties must be more than 10 years old, so we don't do new rental units. We also, before I go into that, every property that we provide any type of assistance, we have to do an environmental checklist. And that environmental checklist requires that we look at, do they have flood insurance, are they in the floodplain, do they have a property that may have toxic contaminations on it. We look at historical also, any property that is the age of 45 years and older is considered to be historical property. And so I know that's something that's of interest to this committee, so we wanted to kind of run through you what that process looks like for every property that is 45 years. And of course, it doesn't affect every property, only those that are 45 years and older. So if a property is more than 45 years old and we're going to be doing exterior repairs, then we take photos and provide a list of the repairs to the Texas Historical Commission for what they call a Section 106 review. We provide that information to the Denton County Historical Commission and also to the historical preservation officer here for the city. They get notified that we're doing a 106 review with the Texas Historical Commission. So the Texas Historical Commission is going to do one of two things. They're either going to tell us that that property is eligible for a national registry of historic properties, or it's not eligible. So if the house is not eligible, then we don't notify us in writing, and then we just proceed with the repair. If it's eligible, then we have to work with them to try to negotiate what repairs we need to do. However, I mentioned that it's only $24,500, we're doing electrical, plumbing, all that is mainly inside the house. If we do anything that's on the exterior, it's probably going to be a roof, and we replace lack with lack. So most of the time when we submit something to the Historical Commission, they like that we're doing lack for lack and that we're not changing the outside of the property. So it's very rare that we come back with a property that we can't move forward with the Texas Historical Commission. In the last 20 years, we probably had one property. We used to fund a program called the Home Improvement Program. That's when we actually renovated the entire house from top to bottom. And in those properties, yes, we used to come across, we came across one property that we renovated from top to bottom, and it took us a year to get through the Texas Historical Commission process. Just going back and forth, this is what our work right up looks like. The Historical Commission would come back, and we would prefer that you do this, and so maybe this type of window or something else, and so it took us almost a year. But we made it through, and the project went through. There's times when I do remember one property that my coworker mentioned that when they came back to us, it was going to be over $100,000 to do a small renovation. And we just didn't have the funds to do something like that, so we chose not to approve that property going forward. So that's really how we handle historical properties. What kind of questions do you have for us? Do you have any other recommendations for us or just questions on the programs? So if a property is listed with the Ditten Historic Commission, would you still go to Texas or would you come to the Ditten? Because we're using federal funds, we are required to go to the Texas Historical Commission. And then we always make sure that we at least notify the locals so they are aware if they have any comments for those properties or what more y'all are working, even the county is welcome to let us know if there's any concerns or anything with those properties. The federal piece, that's right. Would it be helpful to run it through either the city or the county before the state? Just what I'm imagining here is it might create some inertia and vapor of a proposal where it maybe might make it a little bit more difficult for the state to delay things or something along those lines. I think it might be helpful to do it in tandem at the same time only because the Texas Historical Commission requires a minimum of 30 days and these are minor repair programs, repairs that we're trying to do as quickly as possible. So we want to make sure that we can shorten that time frame. So I think if we do it at the same time, it might be beneficial. What have you learned? So for the rental, so the owner has to own it outright? Not necessarily. They can have a mortgage, but they have to have title to that house. Okay. Okay. What have you learned? You said sort of piloting what's working, what's not working. What are some things that you have found to be like the barrier in the sort of tenant side? One is the amount of work. It far exceeds what's budgeted for every household. It's $24,500. And so what we normally do is when we take an application, if the work is going to be, I'll give an example, $50,000 once we do a work write-up, we'll notify the landlord, let them know that the cost is $50,000, can they cover the difference? Sometimes if it's a smaller gap, they may be willing to cover the difference. But if it's a lot more than that, it's hard for them. They sometimes go back to the drawing board and decide to do something else instead. And I know there was one, Alma, if you can help me with this, I know there was one other change we made at the very beginning of it because we noticed we had a requirement at the beginning that it had to be newly purchased, recently purchased. And we noticed that we weren't having any takers, so we went ahead and brought that rule. And we always review the guidelines every year because we want to make sure that whatever we have will move forward properly in the U.S. But with the $100,000, we can do four units per year. So, so far, I mean, we have done four, but it kind of was within two years, one property rolled over into the following because we weren't able to complete it in time to count itself. Have you had more requested than you were able to do in a year? On the rental repair? No. On the minor repair? Yes. Especially last year, we did run out of funds during the summer. And that's why we always make sure we set aside some money for HVAC so we can make sure. But everyone else was being told you have to wait until October. So right now we're working through our waiting list and we have 51 people right now that are on the repair. Yes. So we're trying to quickly trying to get them to submit their applications and get them approved so we can start doing those repairs. On the rental repair program, you said that participating properties must then be rented out at reasonable rates. How are those calculated? Those are provided to us by HUD. They have fair market rents. So we utilize that to make sure that the rents that the landlord is going to be charging don't exceed. Yes. Do you have any idea for the home repair, for any given repair, what the average total claim, I guess you'd call it, is? For repairs? Or what's that? You mean what the total cost we're spending for repairs? Yes. On average. On average, $13,000. I have a question. One of the things that we've been kind of rolling through is trying to figure out ways to incentivize places that may be at or close to historical designation to try to figure out ways to kind of incentive that. So I'm curious, in your experience, if they do go through the Texas Historic Commission, does that unlock any other possibilities for them to access further sources of funding? Do they go through the states? I'm just trying to figure out, like, how does this maybe become a positive in the sense that they might? I do remember reading once that there was some additional money through the state of Texas, but I don't have those details, but I can certainly look into it and then provide that information to Robert. No. Because I know that the Texas Historic Commission, once you go through the process and they start to see, oh, wait a minute, this is going to be eligible, then that can unlock other kind of puzzles. But then it's like, oh, well, if you go this next step, you might be eligible for this. And then because the state requires it, and this is a federal grant, that might even turn into a double whammy at some point, where you're getting some federal incentive and a Texas state incentive. But yes, we can certainly look into that and see maybe from Texas Historical Commission that they can provide us additional resources. We can then forward those. They used to take quite a bit of time, almost 30 days for us to get a response. But actually, since they've done electronic filing now, it takes us maybe a week and a half to two weeks, no more than that. So it's a lot quicker. We enjoy it. I think that would be great information to have on hand so that when a homeowner is applying to the goal, and you know, by the way, we're going to have to put it through this, then they don't automatically assume that whatever comes back is going to be just a huge number, which often happens when it's a historic home. Because we're dealing with just minor repairs and usually the interior. That process takes a lot quicker. I have a question that I think we're just talking about. So because it meets the threshold of what you have to pay to be eligible for the tax exemption, but if they're not the ones paying, does that then make them ineligible or is it just $10,000 invested? They could apply. It would be $10,000 invested and showing that those invoices were paid, but it didn't have to be by them. Do they know that they can apply? Is that part of the process? Would we want them to know? Don't they have to be designated historic? She was saying some of them are that they have to submit. Some of them are, and then they have to work with the state to make sure that they are here to stay, but are they with the city? Are they with the didn't? Maybe not necessarily. That would be a potential if it was a local landmark property who was looking to take advantage of this and they happen to be with either eligible at the national level or within a national historic district and want to take advantage of this program, then they would hit that $10,000. They would hit that $10,000 minimum and then which then they can potentially look at doing the tax exemption. The rental program, if I think I read correctly, that's a, it said on there a five-year forgivable loan is the forgiveness based on there being affordable rent. So what if hypothetically, I take advantage of this program and then I'm like, now I don't want to do. We have to sign when we provide assistance, we signed a deed of trust and a promissory note that you don't meet the five years that you have to pay back the full amount. Immediately. Immediately usually it's due and payable immediately. Now there is a possibility that that if you're not able to pay that back immediately that we could set up some type of payment plan, but it's not something I just want to make sure it wasn't gable. Sean's been interested about me. Any other questions. Well, thank you for the opportunity to come. You're doing the neighborhood empowerment program. Okay. Okay. My name is Josh Ellison. I'm the neighborhood services manager City of Den. I'm also over community improvement services. I brought one of my officers, she's actually the community improvement services or code enforcement officer for the area right around here. The neighborhood empowerment grant got split out under me. Three years ago when I started, I used to actually be under planning. This is a very unique grant. It is a matching grant. And it is fully funded by the city. So it gives us some flexibility, but it is written into ordinance so chapter 14 governs this grant and how it is used. So, just kind of starting off the presentation with the beginning, it is here for our partnership. So to create a partnership with the community and the city to benefit all in the community. Ideally taking resources from the city maximum of 10,000 per project per year per applicant, then building something making a project that benefits others. There is a lot of stipulations on that we'll get to that in a minute. I'd like to start with who can apply, because this grant is thrown around a lot but it is pretty specific on who can, you must be neighborhood association homeowner association tenant association or neighborhood group. This one's a little harder. In general terms, you have to actually be a neighborhood group you have to be registered, five or more unrelated individuals from different households in generally the same area, so you can't be in all different parts of that and then come together. That's not the purpose right we're trying to get this in a targeted area that is open to everyone so house repair. But that said, all the projects always have a citizen project coordinator that would work with myself, and we make sure that the project goes perfectly. Matching and reimbursement funds. So, if you apply for the full 10,000, you have to also match other $10,000 of your own money or kind services you can do hours, we have a little tracking sheets, you can give up to that many hours towards the project. So we had a computer lab that was put in Southeast Denton, their our sheet was installing everything picking it up actually working in the room and getting it ready and opening it for the hours for the public. The $10,000 was for the computers and the desks and chairs. Actually, still using that so it's great. We've had that one for over a year now open. You spend the funds, you submit for reimbursements, you do have to have it. If it's 20,000, if you're trying to get the full 10, you have to have that 20,000 upfront, or like I said, the hours. And then it's always dependent on our funding. This year we only have 30,000 available for this grant. We just started, but we had to reduce it because of budget cuts. Signed line projects. So physical improvements. So this could be those entryways. So if you want, we do have other assigned blocker projects that's kind of where they overlap a little. If you wanted a nicer entryway perimeter areas, we've had somebody build a gazebo before in their neighbor community area. That was nice one that lasted for a few years. Certain fencing areas we've had as well. Tree planting, landscaping, signage, equipment, decorative structures, benches. We've had someone do some benches trying to make that area more community engagement focused. And then public safety programs. So we haven't had anyone do this one yet. But we'd love to see somebody who could make a public safety training, crime fire prevention program, traffic deterrent, or common projects or studies. You know, a bicycle group, that might be interesting. Number three, cultural, educational, and recreational programs. So including literacy program, leadership training, computer labs, as I mentioned, after school enrichment program, cultural art program, summer camp. Number four, neighborhood master plan or comparable studies. Again, we haven't had anyone do that one yet. But always looking for new things. This doesn't necessarily mean you have an idea. It didn't fall into this category that it's not eligible. This is just what we kind of could think of. Project criteria. So providing a long term public benefit to the neighborhood. Located on a publicly accessible, so the right of way, common area. So HOAs usually always have common areas that their members all can get into. Have demonstrated neighborhood support. This could be a survey from your community, Facebook page, where you show the results. You can have a handwritten document showing everyone's support, feedings, things like that. Compatible with adjacent properties. So we obviously don't want something that hurts another neighborhood. We would have a huge sign or something that has lights on it. Directly involved neighborhood residents in all phases. So we love the matching of time and when it's a lot of the different community members, because that means that they're all invested in the project as well, which is the goal of this. Directly involved. Number six, have goals that may be typically accomplished within 12 months or less. So we do want to complete a project from beginning to end within a year. Mostly because that's our budget restraints. So if you applied right now, you want it done before October, so we'd use the funds now. If it goes past that, you go for reimbursement. It's actually come out of the next year's fund. It's more fiscally funded October to October. Seven, must demonstrate appropriate long-term maintenance. So we just want to make sure that you care for it, take care of it. And be within the city's legal authority and comply with the existing city of debt policies and codes. It has to be in that community. It needs to be within our actual jurisdiction. We do have a board that we assemble. So there's a board that we call to order if we need it, and they review all of the applicants, and then they'll make the recommendation to the city manager, the city manager gives the actual final approval on this grant. So it doesn't go to council, so it can be reasonably fast. This just breaks down the examples. Disqualification of funding denial. So a grant application is submitted after a deadline. Required original pledge volunteer signatures are not submitted. So essentially, if you fail to complete the application in its entirety, you wouldn't qualify. If your project does not go according to plan, deadlines, milestones, if it's with the jeopardy. You approve it as a before. Before a project happens, we have to approve it, review it. If we give the approval, the neighborhood can then proceed. They have to fully spend all the funds to be able to accomplish the project on their own. Then they can submit it for the reimbursement part. Make sure you have a TV and television video for the computer lab one. Speak up just a bit. I'm having absolutely absolutely. All right, let's go on to application. So we do have a workshop. So everyone who wants to apply, we will walk them through the requirements. We will help them with the application. We literally will hand hold you all the way through the process. Your neighborhood knows what is required of you. You've even helped point people in the right direction to get an organization form. There's an appeal process for whatever reason if they didn't like the decision. So here's our frequently asked questions. So I always like to go to that. So how many times may you apply once a year? So October 1st to September 30th. How do I access funds allocated to the project upon prior approval from the city manager and completion of the project or implementation of the program? Neighborhood organizations or project partners that have federal tax ID number may receive a check in the amount of the grant to be deposited into the organization's bank account. They may receive a check after everything is completed and verified. Why is my application not approved? We do give feedback. So if your application was missing something, if the committee felt that it was close, but not what the city is looking for, we'll give that feedback to the applicant so that next year they can apply with a stronger application. The next step is reimbursement. So one of the things they do the project after having been approved and then basically reimbursement. Correct. Can you go back? They have to have a federal ID so it has to be a organized group. Correct. Which then they also have to have funding. So if you just have one member who's got a credit card with 20,000 available and they're ready to rock and roll, you could do it that way. But yes, typically you have to be an organized group. You have to register and actually have your tax ID. And we do allow partnerships. So while you can't be a government association, you can't be a religious institution, you can't be an individual. The list of non accepted is pretty long. You can partner with all the non accepted. So if a group maybe doesn't have the funding or the resources, they can partner with a church and that church can help lead them through the process, potentially the paper funding volunteers. But the person who speaks with the city and leads up this project doesn't need to be part of that organization from the church. Is it safe to say our historic districts wouldn't qualify? So if you had an association that came together, partnered with the historic preservation group, they could do something like that. But again, it would have to be in a general area. So if you have maybe a gazebo that was 45 years old, they wanted to get saved. They would have to come together as an association. I would create one, like the John Hintley group, right? So that neighborhood. So this neighborhood had its own association. You could create one, absolutely. Just some eligible projects. Again, community festivals, community health, traffic safety, senior program youth, neighborhood parks and related improvements. We did a park before. Public art, amenity, neighborhood signage, educational program. Since there's one that's already started, I'll just ask you this hypothetical. What about, what if you have a district in Denton that's trying to start a community group that is trying to develop a market? So they're trying to create like a mini market. And they've already this last year put up like a pop-up market. So it's already kind of happened in a way. So that would definitely improve the concept that something like that qualifies as a community event or neighborhood amenity. The problem there would be, is it free food? Is it free color? If they're charging and they're making a profit, that would probably disallow it. I have another question about this list, but also there was a similar page earlier that broke things into categories. Would it be possible to put something historic on there? Would that be memorialization or preservation or something like that? I mean, obviously you would have to meet the requirements of sort of meeting the community's needs and not like putting a plaque on my house. But I feel like that could count as... Would signage programs count towards something like this? Yeah, so signage programs are on here. And these aren't the only eligible ones. These are just, again, what the city could do. I understand that. I'm just thinking just in order to sort of make people more aware that something historic, if that could be added to any of this documentation, that would be awesome. Yeah, absolutely. We are actually actively reviewing for updates Chapter 14 NEP program. So we will potentially be revising it here in the near future. So that's definitely something I'll put in there. You said that the funds were at 30K this year. What were they last year? 50. So previously every year it was 50,000. Do they usually get fully used? No. Last year we didn't use any. The year before it was 10. The year before it was 10. Is it like people know about it, they just don't get their stuff together? Or is it like an awareness issue around the program? Part of it was awareness. We don't actively market it very well currently. But it's also because of the groups. A lot of the HOAs don't have the funds, the resources. So that was part of the roadblock. They didn't have any funds to pay for it up front. Can you match the full amount in volunteer hours? Or does, you can? So you have to match 100%. So if you asked for the 10,000, you'd have to match 10,000 in hours, which you can. So then after you've spent 10,000 of your dollars and you matched with the $10,000 equivalent hours, you'd request $10,000 from the city. That was a big example I think that in our back end. Which is actually what the computer lab did. They had $10,000 of hours. It showed your volunteer hours. Any other questions? Great questions. It seems to me that it's limited to just HOAs or someone having to come together. And that's why I asked specifically about our historic districts. Because our historic districts are not HOAs. Yet they're governed by the city. HOAs not, but the historic districts. So I'm talking about HOAs are not, but historic districts are. Yes. But there could be a friends of the historic district that can organize in order to support. So think about that, Sean. Sure. If you're a homeowner, and you're already governed by the city, and now you want to do another on top of that, and now you're governed by another group, you're governed by two groups. So that's why I specifically called out the historic districts that we currently have. Because they're not eligible for this unless they come together, but yet it would be hard to do. Not hard, you could do it. But you would have to have, HOAs have to have rules and guidelines. They have to fall under that historic district, which they're already under. Does that make sense? That association doesn't qualify as a governing body, does it? I mean, that's a neighborhood support association, right? Yeah, it's like a friends of situation. Yeah, and since they are incorporated 501(c)(3), they would be eligible, correct? Based on what you're saying, it sounds like. Okay. But you said they had to be in the same area. Yeah, right. So the project has to be in that HOA or organizations area. So you'd have kind of that greater oak history that's a hickory area that's served by the Friends of John B.M. If I'm understanding correctly, which it might not be. I mean, that's why you do have shoot off groups like that, community groups that are also beholden as an entity under one set of rules. But then what happens is you'll create a community group or friends of groups. And so what happens is that makes them eligible for different ranges of opportunities for grants and centers and things like that in order to serve each other. Correct. That's, that's kind of what I was picking at. Old people like a community for a neighborhood rather than for a school. Yeah, right. Yeah. And like I said, there's a group that's up in Northwest Denton that's trying to get something started over there. But around North Lakes. And yeah, just just trying to get enough people involved because it's not a HOA situation. There's no larger governing thing. They're just kind of trying to grassroots and create some type of market that's up there in that area. You know, the same could be said for historic areas. I mean, we think about like the walk arounds that we have and sponsor like that. Well, imagine having a group that decides that they want to carry that on and do that. Something like that annual. I mean, that could be something that could have a lot of value in terms of creating and continuing the kind of community awareness. Okay. Thank you for that. Great presentations. All right. Our next item is item 4B, number HLC 25-05. Excuse me about the presentation. I noticed that the City of Denton Preservation splash page has resources related to tax credits for the city, state, federal level. Would it be possible to add a link to resources to the three programs we discussed today? Something along the lines of, you know, hey, if you're having difficulty maintaining, repairing, so on and so forth, your historic property, check out the City of Denton programs. Oh, adding that to the HLC page? Yeah, basically. Yeah, no, I'm happy to do that. I have website access. Yeah, that's why I was thinking like this could be something that could also be a talking piece in addition to trying to incentivize people, right, to think about historically preserving their home, because I read through this a lot. Mr. Frosty's got, you know, I'm like, I want to come see a better pitch. All right, any other questions from the presentation? Okay, now we'll move to item 4B, number HLC 25-052. We're going to receive a report, hold a discussion, and give staff direction on the potential for a new local historic district generally located along North Elm Street and North Locust Street corridors between West McKinney Street and West University Drive. Yeah, so I'm excited. So this was a matrix item from a couple months ago that the commission was interested in pursuing or at least having a discussion about. So the location, as stated from the chair, is generally between West University Drive, US 380, and West McKinney Street along the North Elm and North Locust Street corridors. So this is, sorry, this is McKinney. And then all the way up there. So our GIS team took every property, because of staff's understanding that there's every property kind of facing both of those corridors. And we determined that based off that historically eligible structures map, there's 110 historically eligible structures currently on that site from past surveys, as well as currently four Dent historic landmarks, but there's no state or national landmarks on those corridors. So looking just at the Denton development code, as well as state code, a designation for an area of historic district can be initiated by the HLC, or it can be done by the property owners. And if the property owners pursue this designation, then they have to do a written petition of the signatures of more than 50% of the owners of the property within that proposed district who collect more than 50% of that land. And then in addition to our Denton development code, we also have to include Texas local government code, specifically this section 211. So, the state requires property owner consent for designation or inclusion. If the owner does not give consent to be a part of the historic district, we have to receive three forced votes from city council, as well as companion zoning or the historic district. companion zoning, or the historic landmark commission. So it's an either or, it's an or situation here. Yes, but okay, so if owners don't consent, is there a, it calls for a three forced vote for city council. What about the owners, how many, is there a percentage of owners, I mean, 100% 80% like 50% just 50% Yeah, it's just that 50% signatures. So, but more than so 51% 52% and yeah, yep. Okay. But the three force would come directly from city council planning zoning. Well, city council for sure, and then planning zoning or historic landmark commission. Okay, if they were property owners within that district, who were maybe taking up to 30%, but they still want to, you know, the rest of the neighborhood wanted them included. Then that's where this vote will come in. So what was the wrong number again, I'm sorry, of eligible 110. Yes, yes, sorry, 110. Okay, historically eligible based off the magic number. No, no, no, no, no, no, I was like, 110. And then I realized we're talking about eligible structures. Yes, but it's not 50% of the 110 is it is 50% of all of the properties in the whole thing. Yeah, I just wanted to make, let you all know that these have already been determined pipe pass historical surveys to be historic. So, I assume DST properties are exempt, like we can't touch them or whatever. Yeah, we'd love to see the old macro conception included in that list. But yeah, staff so staff did remove any vacant parcels, DST, just because that's a little bit more difficult and then TW. So any parcels belonging to TW DST or that were already vacant were removed. And then development services but this is not a historic structure, or it used to be but it's been heavily remodeled so it's no longer historic. So I provide you all a few options, just so that to give staff direction on kind of how to proceed with this topic. So that first option was the historic landmark work is to pursue the historic district designation for the area. So just breaking down, you all would essentially go through the normal historic designation process of creating a historic district, you just wouldn't have to do the petition portion. Obviously it would be recommended as it notes here, individual property owners would still need to be consulted and provide their consent. But if they didn't provide their consent and HLC so long to pursue it. That's when that three fourths majority super majority vote will come in. Option two, HLC to reach out to the property owners in the area to discuss their interest in designating the neighborhood as a historic district and have property owners pursue the destination. So if you all have the discussion with the property owners within the Elm and Locust area between McKinney and University, and you get a resounding oh yay like we definitely want to do this, then they would follow the essentially the exact same process you all would be falling, but they would also need to get those signatures. Can we step back option when I'm trying to. So, when we're referring to the individual property owners would still need to be consulted and provide their consent. Is that still the 50% threshold or is that as individually individually and so then if they have an individual property owner does not approve. Then that would go before council and planning is only. Yes. Only the 50% pertains to property owners want to pursue the destination. So same process, but then they would be required to do that petition specifically for the property owners. And then, once again, super majority vote will be triggered if the property owners do not consent to the properties inclusion. So the state still comes in, if some people do not want to be included but are being required to be part of that boundary. That's your majority would still step in, but it's just property owners have to do the additional petition. And then they're an option agency to not pursue the historic designation or discussions with property owners. Yes. So this is a question for anybody wants to offer feedback but I'm familiar with the built environment in that area I'm less familiar with the human element. Are we talking about a neighbor that has a sense of itself as a community that self identifies in the same way that okay three or even Southridge does or is this just a, you know, kind of arbitrary. Say it's like, oh, many are offices or commercial. Right. It's a variety. It's a lot of businesses in like historic homes or. And so it's not a neighborhood in the classic warm fuzzy sense of the term there are parts of it. I mean, so yeah, so I mean, but that, but to me that's what this kind of captures is kind of the once upon a time this, okay, okay, because those two main corridors, right, absolutely central connective tissue and thrive and literal community connective tissue to like, you have you the city, right. So, in that sense, amazing architecture in there. Correct. And then, and then there's a lot of just hidden gems in there and our house. Yeah. And then there's the old, the old rock motor court. Yes, it's touch away. Yeah, first court. Yeah. So, yes, so there's a lot of what was ravelins was a car, a car dealership. That's right. Include that though right. Yes, it was something we're getting. I'm curious to know how the other historic areas were brought about, was it from the commission, or was it from the community. Yeah, yes, and I will be honest. And it is definitely something that staff cannot run, because I'm not part of those neighborhoods so it really does have to be neighborhood driven and that's why the code is written as is that it has to be led by the commission or the community members, not specifically the HBO, because then we get into ethics issues there with me making decisions for our neighborhood. So that's why the code is written as is so I just wanted to preface why maybe you're not seeing me coming into this at all and it's very much a lot of like, oh, the commission has to do this for the neighborhood it's because of just, there would be a lot of ethical questioning that comes into play. So if you go back to option one. Yes. And personally I lean to this. And here's why I have had repeated calls and even last week on another street, really wanting to search out to become a historic district. The problem with that is, everybody wants someone else to do it. They want it. And they call me and I don't live on that street. Right. So they called me and same way here, I can't do I don't live on that street. So I told him to call you. Let me just correct I guess what I was saying. I can be there for educational assistance. Yeah, but I have also had people say can you do my neighborhood district for me. Right. Right. Yeah. No, I cannot. I can't determine why you think it's significant why you think this is a reason to preserve it. It's very different than a historic landmark destination where the property owner comes to up to me or you all, you know, send a letter and they say, Hey, I'm interested in pursuing it. That's much easier because it's one individual I'm dealing with one property owner and they're telling me why they think it's significant and they're giving me that application. Yeah, neighborhood is a totally different scale because there's so many other criteria that come into play, that it really is difficult for staff to play any type of role besides educational as to why they want to pursue it or end up pursuing it, but you could guide us through this. The reason is, I'm wondering if we would get if we could possibly get more interest in neighborhoods becoming designated historic districts. If we were to put in more of the work, and I don't know what this one would be like, but I don't think we'll know until we try. Well, I'm thinking a lot along the lines you are, Angie, because, because my first instinct of course was option one is, I mean, HLC, we can kind of get the ball rolling, but we need that within that area. We need five stakeholders who are willing to, you see what I mean? I need you, and I hate to tell you to form a committee, but I'm about to tell you to form a committee and like get together and that way you at least have some time. Does that make sense? Like, we need to make sure that you have skin in the game. You're going to be able to be using your work as somebody who is in that district to carry this forward. Yeah, because if we're going to, because to me, I feel like that's a reasonable demand. If we're going to ask this commission, and we're going to ask staff to help sherpa this to a point where it could develop. We need to have some assurance that there's significant investment in sustainability. Does that make sense? I feel a little bit uncomfortable sort of imposing it without any community or neighborhood interest. I don't know if there's a way to canvas the neighborhood, just in general to kind of see if there are three entities in that district, it would be good to approach and say, well, right. But I mean, the difference is that, because they're going to wind up looking at me and be like, oh, you're going to do this for us, right, the same way that they did the camera, and it's going to be like, you know, I'm here to support. Big hugs, right, and I'm here for you, but I can't. That's that's your area. So, if you want to see it, I'm just trying to get an idea of like, because it's not going to be sustainable if I mean, we can give it the designation all that we do, then what happens with it. Right, right. It doesn't mean anything unless correct to live there. Yeah, so that's that's why it's, I'm just thinking, but in terms of like sustainability, that if, because yes, I mean, I, I'm leaning towards option one for the sake, but there's always a mix between option one and option two. Yeah, so option two is HLC to reach out to the property owners, discuss interests and kind of gather that interest but then the property owners would pursue it. My problem with option two only in my ideal world that's what's going to be the best option. But part of the reason that I asked my first question was to kind of gauge how much of a community. How much neighborhood could generate its own self initiative in this regard and it sounds like, even if there are a lot of support of it, they may not be able to come together and drive it forward on their own. Do we have an idea how many of them are owner occupied or at least locally owned, like I assume, just from being here a long time and seeing the same businesses and many of those structures that at least a good chunk of them are owned by the businesses or whoever, but I don't want to assume that because you just never know. I'm sure that there are some residences in that group, but a pretty small percentage. That's because it's such a diversely mixed use. I mean we have from dentist office to insurance, insurance, the maker space now. Yes, I saw that. I didn't realize they were moved there. Cameron, I have a question and I don't want to belabor this to death, but can you humor me and just kind of give me a sense of why including just that one building within the DISD's property would be impossible to do? I'm sure you have a great reason for it. This one right here? Well, the one right there. Oh, just south of here? Yeah, just the chapel. No one cares about the rest of it. Is it still intact? On the exterior, yeah. And that was like part of the deal that the DISD made with the church when they sold it was that they would keep it intact. So is the ISD original admin building? Say that again? The ISD original admin building too. I could see a justification for that. I care more about the old church, but you could certainly hold central services, you could certainly justify something like that. So it is a single parcel. It's not individual lots, so they own that parcel as a whole. But that doesn't mean we can't have a discussion with them. They would have to consent to it. Unilaterally take that. Yeah, they would have to consent to it, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't just state this portion of their parcel as part of the ordinance, because there's going to have to be an ordinance created that's supported with a boundary if this designation were to go through for a historic district or even a conservation district. So it's not that it couldn't happen. It was just easier for staff right now to not include it. If it does go forward, if it does end up becoming a thing, I would love for someone to at least have a conversation with the superintendent or whoever would be in charge of that. They may say no, right? They don't want us controlling their property or whatever, but maybe they say yes. I'm going to ask a question. I kind of know the answer, but I'm not sure. So if you pull the map down, and I don't know that you can do that, but right across university. I do not. Do you want me to pull up like on Google Maps? Would that be more helpful? Yes. Yes. But what it is is Woodland is the one that keeps calling me. Okay, so it is. Yeah, thank you for that. Okay, so go towards university, please. Oh, sorry. Okay, keep going to university. This is the whole area we're talking about. Up to university, correct? Yes. All right, so if you keep going to university, they go, keep going. Right, so keep going. Keep going. So right there, Woodland, do you see that street right there? Oh, yes. Yeah. It's just that close. That's all it is because Bell Avenue is already a historic district, but all the way down Woodland is where I keep getting the phone calls. Anyway, long north of the university. Yes, there are so many historic. There are. That could be, that could be designation. So I feel like I'd like to start with one in hopes that others would join in, whether they join one. Right. Woodland has said they'd like to join Bell Avenue. That's a whole other discussion. Right. Or somebody. When they were doing Bell Avenue, they talked to a lot of other people then. They did. And, I mean, they didn't come on board. No, but things have changed. Do you think it's been a significant change in that? It's been a significant change in that. Yeah, I wonder if that's pretty close to Seoul too, isn't it? There's some wonderful old houses on Seoul that I feel like you could use if the homeowners are interested. Yeah, that's what I think. If there's an interest there. I'm just wondering what a good option is because I'm with you. I think we need to have the homeowners buy in to want to do it, but we also have to have the value for them to want to do it. And I know they need to do work, but they look at it. They just look like it's a mountain to climb. Sure. And like, what could we do to help with that? So maybe a form of option two. So I think this is kind of where you're going, but it's not quite hitting the nail on the head that it's HLC having those discussions and providing guidance. But the property owner kind of handholding a little bit the property owners just to get them excited and wanting to pursue the designation, or then I would come in for more educational deep dive, I guess, assistance where they need. If they have like, how can I research my property, I can kind of guide them in that case, but not doing the actual sitting down doing the research for them. I wonder if we. Yes. Good question. I know several people that live like on Bolivar and neighboring streets, old houses and all of them are just deathly afraid that some developers going to come in and buy everything up and build 25 story apartments and whatnot. Is there a reason why we're excluding these neighboring streets from this like I mean to me that's sort of like, that is still the same neighborhood that's just the more residential side of that neighborhood and I mean, I'm not saying that recognizing as a historic district is the key to preventing development, but it is part of like building community in that area and that's the only way. If that's what that community was that's the only way to fight it off is to build that community. That's what's happened. So part of this has to do with that 50% threshold, getting people, how many people are you able to get in to say yes or no. So, I mean, because I'll put my cards on the table, I think option one is the best option. And the reason is, because I think that this way, the Historic Landmark Commission we can start that process, and then recruit and bring on people on board thinking because that's also going to require more community and more community yeses. Does that make sense. But the idea is asking, and somebody correct me if my impression is wrong but my impression whenever I approach people about hey, why don't you do that is the usual thing that happens when anyone says hey why don't you do that. People say, no thanks, I'm busy. What you're saying with businesses because there's a couple of business owners over there that I think would be super interested in having this, but are they willing to invest the time themselves. The answer is no. But what if you had some partner, what if you had a committee, what if you had like three or four people who are hoping you can keep this ball pushing and create some momentum so that this thing becomes a thing. That makes sense. I have a really good question. So, if the property owners like not don't want this right and then it would ultimately have to go before council. And let's assume that there are not the votes there to do that. What's the result, you still have the, you still have the district that their property just isn't included in it, or does it. If that was going to be the easier when for the commission to get the district passed is to just remove the parcels in such a way, the parcels who don't want to, I guess, be part of the district where it still feels so I'm going to use this example so say. So these interior parcels, obviously that's gonna be a little bit more difficult to take them out of the district but say you have some outliers where these two parcels don't want to be part of it. These four don't want to be part of it. You guys could just adjust the boundary just take them out, because if you feel like you're not going to get the three fourths majority. Or you just feel like it's going to be complete headache, then you can just take them out. Like I said, those interior ones. You know, if you maybe have some neighboring properties who don't want to participate you're able to cut it out but we, I would say, your interior properties are going to be your biggest issue is that if this is, you know, the general idea of what you are wanting the area you're wanting to designate a historic district and you have, you know, three properties here and a couple here that are like, I don't want to be part of it you're kind of like sorry you're in the middle of the district. That's a discussion that you all would have to have with the property owner, and hopefully can get their buy in if not you just cross your fingers that you get that three. I wish I had a better. Yeah, you would hope that you because when we're looking at historic districts we're also looking for a cohesiveness and we're not looking for jagged edges and we're trying to make it as easy as possible for both the zoning regulation because there are zoning regulations that come with this, but also just for clarity for staff and the parcels that are participating within that historic district so I think we'd almost, if we're going to try to like canvas the neighborhood I would say canvas wider than that that way you kind of at least get a sense of who, which property owners are where and you can maybe more easily draw a cohesive district out of it. So, I'll like over to Austin Street, Bolivar Street, go a little bit wider each way because I think that Oakland, maybe as well. Yeah, Oakland, there's a house on there. Well there's a lot of beautiful homes on there that are historic. That's true, but there's also a lot of apartment complexes there that are owned by people at a state so then you're also entering in variables that are more likely to say no thanks. Well that's fine but if all we're doing is trying to gather information and let's see where the, you know, let's see what the information tells us. Can we gerrymander a district that's going to work for us essentially. Yeah, I mean, that's one way to put it. We're not close to that at all. I just wonder if we start with the smaller one. And see what, what it's different though because of the businesses. No, I mean, I don't, I don't have an issue like focusing in on a smaller area as our, as our hope, but I just kind of figure well if we're going to be canvassing let's canvas widely just see if there's a specific area that we should. This is one of the reasons again. So one of the things that we risk John is we risk say, oh wait a minute let's go back to formulas expand it let's go redraw the map and look at that and then let's vote on that six months from now. Versus we go with this plan, what's already mapped out and say, go do that, and then we can look at expanding it later when as more yeses come up, does that make sense. I mean, because I'm not opposed to starting together information with the map. Yeah, right, right, right. I would, I just think it might make sense to while we're doing that, explore the possibility of expanding for sure. They go straight over Austin Street, would you like to join up on the street, would you like to join. Yeah, because then, because then once you have something started the yeses are much easier. Because then it's like we're doing this. I didn't just want to share with you all so that historically eligible structures map that we have online. It shows that there are tons of eligible properties essentially generally from Oakland to Carol Boulevard between, which I think we were all very aware of but just wanted to show you all the data is here it's been surveyed it's been researched to a reconnaissance level extent, but there's that basic information with for you all as a commission knowing that hey we're already going in there's lots of eligible structures there it's just kind of doing the deep dive on each of those structures and getting that property. It's a pretty clearly defined area right like that. So, oh, those are primary structure demolitions. The darker ones are exterior modifications because I've been thinking about several that were very historic, and we're very cool but they've been really renovated multiple times, are they eligible. So, no, they, depending on the type of modification that would take place if someone who reached out to me saying, Hi, this is my property, I have interest I have some exterior modifications, can you check out my property because I'm interested in doing a destination, and based off historical documentation if they're looking to do more of like an architectural does type of designation. I would say, no, you know, unfortunately you're not. You're not a destination at the local level for individual landmark, however, for a historic district. Plus, two additional criteria for on that landmark designation list, which there's 13 criteria. So, the historic district, a potential historic district or conservation district doesn't have to necessarily be based specifically just on architecture. So, the green, green dots are all eligible to the red, the bright red dots primary strike structures. Yes, they can still be included within the district they just individually are. So if the primary structures demolish we would not include those parcels, we want to exclude them. And then with exterior modifications that's more of a discussion of what is the greater goal of the historic districts that you all are looking to create or that the community is looking to establish, and then looking at how those play into it and if those don't meet kind of that criteria if we're able to remove them we would if not we would just say, you all are not contributing you're not going to have to follow the certain design standards that go into the development code at a certain point. So I guess I'll go back to the options. Sure. Just to kind of get a general idea of how you all are feeling and I guess just because I'll lay this out, just in order to speed discussion for moving towards some type of my inclination is I would very much support option one. And the reason is to get involved going like tonight, so we can vote on that process started, and then have a better more realistic look at what that's going to take in order to then involve community stakeholders to put some skin in the game. Ideally I love to, but just, I know from experience and I know, historically speaking, that's usually a non starter, because everybody sits around looking at each other and nothing happens for a long time and then, meanwhile, things get bought up, cobbled up, torn down. And that's how that works. Or if, you know, if we want we can come back and talk about John's 1.5 option, play a little mix and match at some point. I'd be amenable to that but I'm leaning towards option one just because finalizing the boundary determining the criteria, and then creating that list in a map in order to start this kind of formal application process that that is the lion's work. And then, then we might come back and make touches and quibbles and additions later. I feel like that would be something getting the ball rolling and getting something started and underway. Is that going to anger property owners that we're kind of starting without them. I'm going to say no. Yeah, because they can say no. That's right. So that's why I'm like let's get it started. And I mean, of course I mean if there's enough people that are like, heck no I don't want to say. Well, I think there is great value in doing in making a decision that can result in action. I don't have enough experience and have never dealt with the HLC I've never been contacted I've never been through any of the processes to have a feel for how it's going to go. I really feel like that so much of what we're in the district that we're looking at is commercial, but I just don't expect much response positive response from that. And so I see to John's point, those, those next blocks over have many more residences that may be more interesting, but that's a lot bigger process to begin. And so, you all have more experience and maybe just start with that much and then expand. Should there be individuals on the commission that have the capacity to do the research necessary for right because every property has to be researched with demonstrated evidence of what makes it eligible. Then, I say, fully for number one. If there's not capacity in within the commission to be able to do that, then we're starting an effort that we also are going to be unable to complete. I thought you said they're already eligible. So do we still need yes to search them. Correct. Do we not already have that information that the city reconnaissance survey. They have the year construction and photographs from either 96, 2012, but it's very preliminary information. It's not deep dive into who lives there or anything like that. It doesn't. It doesn't do the work to prove what for each property that would need to be. But for the district, which probably what more would need to be done for each individual property. So, I'm going to use I'm going to use Southridge for right now. I'll be coming back to the point. But so right now, there's recent photographs of the properties that have been taken, and they've been able to get as much information as possible. They've gotten some dates of construction. They've gotten architectural styles building materials, but they don't necessarily have uses in ownership. And then so for anything that current area that's looking that you are looking into, we would need updated photographs of every single property. We would need to look at the surveys and see if a day of construction was determined. If there was an architectural style, what are we looking at currently? Because these are past surveys. The most recent one we've done at the city was 2015 and that was it is still so ball over this whole area was surveyed back in 2012. And prior to that was the 1996 survey. So a lot of this information is already outdated to an extent. So we would need new photographs, making sure that we the architectural style that was determined in 2012 is still the same. Probably have to do much more of a deep dive on the uses and ownership building materials. See if there's any changes from 2012 in that construction technique. If you're able to get that, that's great. Usually pure and beam at this point, or in that area. So some concrete slabs depending on which property you're looking at. But then in this case, creating that map, the list and then including any and then determining based off your research of each property, if it should be contributing or not contributing to the Historic District in terms of that larger statement of significance. So there's a good amount of work that would be done. Yeah, so there's a base foundation because it's already been researched, but it hasn't been a deep dive research and it's already probably out of it's already out of date, at least definitely the photographs and depending how quickly those surveys happen. I was not here. So I don't know how quickly those surveys occurred. They could have happened in a three month span. They could have happened a year long span. If they had a year long, there might have been more research conducted. But if it was three months, they're doing basic reconnaissance surveys and they're just getting us all the basic information off a quick preliminary search and then they're submitting it to city staff. This is the easiest way to determine all. I assume with ownership you mean historically, right? Yes. Are you talking about going to the county and looking at old titles and stuff? Yeah, so similar to what we do for individual landmark properties. The first 25. Yeah, individual. Luckily, maybe in this area, you're only dealing with maybe five or six property owners, but similar to what we do for a historic landmark individual designation. It would be trying to get back to the beginning of when that structure was built and then going to present day. What are these typically built? So a lot of these in this area range from the early 1900s to the 1960s. Okay. Sorry, I'm going the wrong way. All right. Commissioner Gregory, were you finished? I just stopped you there. I think I just wanted to ensure that if we are wanting to go with option one, that there are people in this room that are like, yes, I will do the work to write because otherwise we should not go with option one. In my ideal world, we do this option two. We don't live in the ideal world. I think this is a thing worth doing, so I am going to vote in favor of option one as far as throwing ourselves into the meat grinder. I am more than happy to sit down with titles, city guides, and Sanborns to, you know, help hash out uses and ownership for, you know, these buildings and hopefully best case scenario. Once we launch in, we'll find some useful support and assistance from the area itself. If we don't, maybe that's the point in time at which we decide to reevaluate. Thank you. You. Absolutely. I think that we need not take on something that requires a lot of work on our part, if the people are not really interested in doing it. Because we could spend a lot of our time researching and then people say, I don't want to do that. I don't want my property. Maybe there's anything I want to do what I want to do it when I want to do it. Or to be able to sell it. Yes, that's the biggest thing you can see and that's what we're trying to prevent that yet. Well, some of the property owners. And we only if it pays me as much as so. Before we devote our lives to this. I also would. I love old dusty books, so I don't have any problems going out of the county and fire service and all that. I'm not an architectural expert. Do we have one in this room. I'm not an expert, but my degree is in architecture. Okay, well, that counts as something. We're going to be responsible for sort of confirming the architectural style. I'm not I'm not able to do that. Like I said, I can provide the survey that was done for this area and hopefully that gives you all a good starting basis. Option 1 is what you all decide that you want to do tonight. That will give you all a good foundation, at least in terms of the statement of significance, why they determined at the time that this area was significance. It's kind of going to be more of the individual properties and then you all deciding what you think is worthy to be part of the district is contributing and not contributing, which they've already done some of that work. For you all, but it's also different than National Register. You all are looking at different criteria than the National Register is looking at, which is going to be more strict. There is flexibility at the local level for you all going through this process in our training for this Friday. Am I going to learn you're going to learn all the benefits or like the good and the bad. Yes, you all are going to learn all the things. Yes, they're doing the training. So if anyone wants to come on Friday, I think it's important for us as a body to pursue historic districts. I think that's what we're here for, and I think that that is our duty to do that. I also think I'm looking at the note on the bottom that said the individual property owners would still need to be consulted, and I'm going to hang my hat on that because I feel like we need to get it started. If we can finalize a boundary to start one, even if we want to expand it later. My question is, if we say hey option one. I'm really with that one dot five that I would really like to have, because I would like for us to to finalize it. I would really like for us if we're determining the criteria that is fairly easy to, but I would like to bring in property owners, and I would cross my fingers that there would be someone within that that might take it over. Is that a possibility if we say hey we want to do option one. Yeah, so that's my thought process with that. Even though I know that you would not mind, you know, getting Dustin off some books and things like that, which I think is great. I'm offered not working to lose an experienced hands. We are a city government body. It's on us and not so we're going to need some help with staff when if we were to do this to make sure we're saying guidelines to make sure we're doing right so we need to at least consult with staff. I think so. So it's not just, here you go, because I'm gonna tell you I can make a mess of it, you know, you don't want me to. That's the reason that I'm thinking option one to get something going. And I just want to know am I thinking correctly that we could do those things. Yes, yes, you are correct and I say that staff is here to assist is just, we can't do the actual physical work. Just due to conflict of interest. Would you be able to like a nail a fire or pamphlet that on behalf of the commission I could. But not as a historic preservation officer. Yeah. I just don't want to pay. So I would be, I, here's what I would think. The, the option one dot five, and I know that wasn't presented but since we're given discussion and direction. I would like us to finalize the boundary, and I'm fine with the boundary that's been presented to start. I also would like to see it expanded once we start this, so I don't want it to go by the wayside. I'd also like to draw in Woodland Street. At some point, not to not to part of this, but if we're doing the whole thing, go ahead. Would you also be okay if we had if when we started with a district and was clear that one end of it. Wasn't interested. Would you be still good with making smaller. Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. I think it's, it could also get maybe shorter but wider and I'm sorry to the resident Andy. But I think we have to have a starting place I think Mr. Trey was with you know, there's a lot of fidelity to that that we have to have the starting point. I don't know how you all agree with what I've just said, but that's kind of my take on it on starting that said, I'm good is everyone. Voting for the boundary that's been I feel like I want to make a motion that we go with option one, but we think towards a 1.5 plan, which that would mean either either and number one expanding the proposed district that we have here that might include more homes. If depending on parties are interested but then also are to is we also want to see if in the meantime while we're engaging in option one, we're also see if we can identify possible candidates within that district for committee for maybe an assistance committee or maybe an advisor maybe call it an advisory committee for this district, so that they can help us share it through with all the other stakeholders in the neighborhood. And that's thank you Commissioner tree and I think that that's worth it to even add on to that. If we could get that person they may know more people in the neighborhoods and community to, to even get someone to come with them. Thank you for reaching out to the, so that's that's include if I'm not mistaken that was included at the bottom of it which was there's no be consulted. No, I understand that but I just mean, making an actual plan send out a flyer, whatever that may be. I mean, contact them, which doesn't stop pursuing up right when I just like, let's figure out what make that make that or isolate individual property owners whatever strategy is. I guess I have a quick question for legal. I was just going to say, you would evidently know someone who is now interested on the side streets or something. I know about four. Okay, that's north of this boundary. So it's, it's north. I know where I know where that is. That's for that that's what I can't do it for them, like, as individual, they've called me like, we want to do this, and I can't do it for you. So that's why I think it's imperative that HLC gets the ball rolling. And then someone from a community stand up to say, because I guarantee you they don't want HLC run in their district. Right. You know what I mean. And I was that's why I was hoping that there would be somebody that we would already know. I think it might be to that people just don't know. And I, I would love to have a meeting, like, like our flyer be here. We're inviting you to come meet with HLC. We want to discuss this with you want to talk about the value to you for what it can do to your home to your properties, how it protects them, and not to really be a government body over them. And the benefits through that I would I would like to do that to me, set the boundaries, determine the criteria proposed for the district that we could do that and send out that and send out the flyer and for a meeting. Jane, that's that's just, I don't know, I know we're, you know, Toma and all this but would it be possible to have like to have a, I don't know what you call it a fair demonstration or something like at Emily Fowler or somewhere else. I guess we're technically right in this area too but I'm thinking more closer to the one of the residences that I imagine it would have to be you know be publicly announced this that the other but, but that the whole point of the meeting is just invite the neighbors there and just to see what this would look like. We can do like a community information session. Yeah, that's, that's what I mean, like, like you did with that Southridge. Yep, right, and just have a community information session where everybody comes to give a presentation they can see what's what it's looking like. And then you have asked like here's kind of what we need. And then, yes. The issue, not issue. But what we have to do is, because we would have a coral, right, it has to be posted right if we're all going to be there which I would hope that as many as we could would be there. So it would have to be posted. I would present have an Emily Fowler have here. I do want to just get us back on topic in terms of just picking an option and then we can kind of decide how you all pursue the designations. It's exciting. So we do have a motion on the floor. So, I just need a second. All right, all in favor say aye. Okay, was that unanimous? Did I hear any nays? All right, so there we go. We're doing the option kind of 1.5. Does that give you enough direction? No, that's perfect. All right, I think it's good discussion guys. I like it. Appreciate it. All right. Moving on to item 4C, number HLC 25-045. We're going to receive a report and hold a discussion and give staff direction on the Historic Landmarks Commission request for local historic designation and eligible historic properties. I don't have any to report because the one that I think it could be on there. Okay, so anyone have anyone anything to point out? Any new ones? Nope. But then we're going to move along. All right, item 4D, number HLC 25-044 on our agenda is to hold a discussion regarding the Historic Landmarks Commission project matrix. So I know that I told you all that I was going to get the template agenda done. These new state requirements for getting this agenda turned around is a lot faster than I realized. So I'm working on that without being December, obviously, the historic designation discussion that took place. So we can take that off and then continue researching new or updated programming. That's just going to keep going as ongoing until we're a little bit better budget situation. One thing I did want to bring up is based off kind of that discussion that you all were just having. I would recommend just for the actual working through the designation process and working through the application. So that we're not consistently dealing with a walking forum of having, you know, four or more that it might be best to potentially bring forward in a future agenda to have two maybe subcommittees. And they can change, but creation of two subcommittees where we know there's at least three people that are kind of point person for research and then three point people for community outreach. That doesn't mean that, you know, you can't switch places, but that it will just help with staff not, I guess, making sure that you all do not have a walking forum in cases where we're not maybe involved with the event that's taking place. So, obviously, if there's a community fair or meeting, I can post about that. But if you are wanting to meet one off, and I hear that there's four people there, then we get a little it gets awkward. The idea would be that you guys would communicate in your three or less subcommittee and then if you wanted to talk about it with the group, it would be at a public. I get like the research committee those type of things if we're doing a public facing for this, I would personally like to have as many that could be there, be there for them to see the faces of the agency. You just need to let me know when you all and I'm having, you know, say if I have the flyer and I have the information I can do it but if there's one off meetings that you are wanting to have with a smaller community group, then you just need to let me know as staff so that I can make sure that I'm posting in time, just saying that we might there's a notice of possible quorum at this event, just so that we don't have any legal issues, do we have access for city staff to create a flyer for us and mill it out. Or are we are we on no no we have you have access to Okay, yes. Can I ask one other question where you said the discussion for the North Locust and North down, you can take that off. Yeah, I was gonna take that off and then I was gonna add potential creation of subcommittees as the next portion of that discussion. I would just like to see it staying on since we're not done. Sure, okay. Good point. Thank you. It's ongoing. So I'd like to see that. Thank you, Chair. Thank you for making my brain work. Any other items there. And then, of course, annual update will come in the beginning of the new calendar year. Hey, can you scroll down right there where it says increase awareness and you attack tax exemption program. That could really play a part in part of the thinking. Well, part of that, that's terrible that we're thinking a lot. Incentivize it. Yeah, like it was talked about incentives like here's why benefits and especially commercial and if they become a neighborhood organization. Right with the neighborhood. Yeah, we're taking boxes. You end up having to buy. So anything else. We need to add to the matrix or this one item. I don't remember. I'm going to learn about this on Friday. You wasn't the actual matrix. It was like the holding pattern matrix. I'm going to call it. Oh, on hold. Oh, oh, the one that was in the center. Maybe I can't remember, but there was one item that you were talking about that I was considering asking you to put on the matrix, but I can probably learn about that on Friday. Yeah, that sounds good. Some other commissioners received in the past, but we have two new commissioners, so they were invited to the new training, but it's from eight to noon on Friday. We could each and then I'm going to go out on Friday. Oh, yes, we have coffee, but I'm depending on how many people we have in attendance. What do you notice a possible for I cannot come. I will be working. I'm not certain that I can, but I'll I could let you know tomorrow. Yeah, so if you want to attend, you don't have to. You can just show up if you want to. Okay. Any other business. And we're adjourned. Thank you very much.