Oct 13, 2025 Historic Landmark Commission on 2025-10-13 5:30 PM

>> All right, I believe I see that we do have a phone present. So we're going to call the meeting to order at 5.36 p.m. And the first order of business is Pledge of Allegiance. >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. On the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state, under God, one, indivisible. >> All right, for our second order of business is Presentation from Members of the Public. Does anybody have any sign up to speak? Okay, seeing none, we'll move ahead to item number three, items for consideration. Before we get underway, I'd like to recognize Cameron to make some quick introductions. >> Yes. I just want to introduce, we do have a new commissioner, Dr. John Honig. I'm going to pass the floor for a brief introduction. >> Hi, everybody, I'm John Honig, debt native, grew up here, went off to college, grad school, got all the degrees I could find in history, and then eventually made my way back here, been back here for about 10 years and worked at Imperial College. >> Great. >> Welcome, John. >> Commissioner, welcome to you with open arms. So let's see, under 3A, item 3A, number HLC 25-054, our agenda is to consider approval of the September 8th minutes. Do I have a motion on the second or a comment? >> I have a motion on the second. >> Okay, Patricia, Councilperson Sherman, along with Councilperson Adams, I've moved a second. All those in favor say aye. >> Aye. >> Aye. Any opposed, nay. Sounds like you're passing. All right, let's move on to item 3B, number HLC 25-0003, which is to hold a public meeting and determine whether the presented expenses resulted in permanent improvement and a restoration of the local historic landline property located at 218 North Locust Street. The site's located on the southeast corner, the intersection of North Locust Street and East McKinney Street. I'll bet you better know it as the old post office. >> Yes. Thank you, Vice Chair. As stated, this property is located at 218 North Locust Street at the intersection of McKinney and Locust. The owner is Tim Beatty. Its original construction date for the original portion is 1919, with the early 1960s edition. This is the local landmark as it is today. You will probably pass it quite often. So I say this is for a historic landmark tax exemption, looking at section 10-128 of that partial tax exemption of designated historic sites. A number of improvements and/or restoration were done, including the removal of old vinyl tiles and adhesives, some HVAC duct insulation, as well as old thermal system insulation around the piping was removed, along with consulting. Consulting fees do not qualify for improvements and/or restoration, as they do not pertain to that general improvement and/or restoration of the historic property itself. But that total qualifying expense with that removal of consulting fees amounts to $16,252. So they did originally see the tax exemption in 2011, and it expired in 2021. So we are looking at specifically section 10-128D, which looks at any additional tenure of exemptions after they've had that original one, as long as they spend that minimum of $10,000. So staff does recommend a favorable determination presented with the exception of the consulting fees and the permanent improvement and/or restoration of the landmark property at 218 North Locust Street. And I can stand for any questions, as well as the app hand is here as well if you all have any specific questions about the work that was completed. I've got some questions. >> How bad was it tearing that tile up, or was it just the flooring, which flooring came up? >> Well, the underlayment came up with it. >> Yeah. >> So. >> No shocker there. >> But it was pretty tough, but we got it. >> All right. >> Yeah. >> Hang on. >> Amazing. It wasn't a lot of asbestos in this building. The upstairs, the flooring is-- >> My question is, there was going to be much asbestos abatement. >> No, it's got a clean bill of health now. >> All right. >> Wow. >> Okay. >> That's nice. >> More good news. >> Yep. >> And do you have a plan for building? >> Yes. I didn't know what you all knew and what you didn't know, but I don't know anything. I have the plans here. We're free to look at them, but there's 13 apartment units going in there. There's a full basement in this building, and so some of them are two-story due to windows and stuff, so we're making that all work, and then there's a second floor where most of the air handlers were put in at a later date. We're taking all that out, and there'll be a top unit up there. So it'll be 13 pretty planned to be upscale top units, so. >> Okay. >> Any plans-- >> Plan to keep the outside looking like it is, except on McKinney Street, we're having to cut in some windows. >> Chair, if I may? >> Yeah. >> I just want to keep this on track and compliant with posting and such. So while this is all very fascinating, I want to refocus on the appropriateness of the tax exemption. >> Point taken. So I just will yield back to our attention to the recommendation of staff, which is to-- >> There you go. >> We have a favorable termination, so I'm looking for some discussion along those lines or a motion. >> I will make a motion to approve as recommended by staff. >> Seconded. >> All right. We have a motion by Councilperson Adams, seconded by Councilperson Black. All those in favor say aye. >> Aye. >> Aye. All opposed? Nay. Hearing no opposition, I believe it passes successfully. Good luck. >> Okay. >> Thanks for coming to see us. >> That's all we need. >> I look forward to it, yeah. >> We'll be in touch. >> Okay. >> What about next steps? >> Where's the parking going to be? >> Ma'am? >> Where's the parking going to be? >> The parking is going to be on the, I guess it'd be the south side. There's a new parking lot. We're cutting in new approaches. >> Yeah, but we don't use it now for other things. >> Yeah, I know. As we all know, parking is a challenge. >> All right. >> Around the square. >> So let's move on to item 3C. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Item 3C, number HLC 25-069 is to hold a discussion and consider approval of the 2026 Historic Landmark Commission meeting calendar, Cameron, which is previewed. >> Yes. So we usually have, typically have it on the second Monday of every month. You will see in this one, we have it all the way through January and February. That typical second Monday, March will be the only month out of this entire calendar year. So that will be different. It'll be that very first Monday of the month on March 2nd. So if you all are comfortable with this, this looks good to you all, then you can proceed. >> All right. Mr. Vice Chair, we'll bring up a point, please. Just for everyone's information, I am on, for August, I am on the programming committee of an author's convention that meets with Providence, the weekend of our meeting. I realize that qualifies as an excused absence. I just want to put out ahead of time, very good, you know, if anyone feels like they can move to another weekly meeting, be there, great. If not, I'll take my excused absence and come home. Okay. Thanks for the heads up. Any other discussion or questions? Let's bring it to the meeting, it's a good sign. >> Yes. >> Yeah, we need to have a motion to approve, is that fair? >> And the approval of the calendar as presented. >> Thank you, Councilman. >> I second. >> And we have a second. Councilperson Sherman. All those in favor, say aye. >> Aye. >> All those opposed, say nay. No opposition. Looks like we got our 2026 schedule. >> Awesome. >> Ready to play ball. >> I'll have a couple copies for you all at the next meeting. >> Sweet. All right. >> You know what I'm saying, that's not true. That's changing the table. >> Oh, yeah. >> Of course, of course. >> So the next item is 3D, number HC25-053. To report whole discussion of your staff direction on how to recognize the former Park Place station. This is news to me. Can't wait to hear. >> So did everyone -- so Carly sent out an email this morning for everyone to kind of review your backup packets, but this is a very small wall, as you're going to see, but I did receive this letter from, I want to make sure, Miss Joyce Keenis, and she had interest. She kind of just shared a little bit of the background of her family history, that her grandfather had run a service station called Park Place along University, and he was also a rock collector. She did have interest in if there was some way to preserve this remaining part of the wall. Like I said, it's very small. I believe Commissioner McAdams went out there this afternoon to try and locate it, and she did locate it. She took a nice little -- with some assistance. So staff is just looking for direction, you know, on next steps in the backup packet. I did provide the AIS, so you can see some of the options that were provided, but just trying to get kind of direction on what you all feel is appropriate in terms of preserving this wall, or just kind of sharing the family history. So I also went out there this afternoon, and I had a surprising amount of feelings on this one. First of all, in addition to being a really good sample of renegotial architecture, it is an absolutely beautiful piece of folk art. I mean it's sculpture in every way that matters, and because of that, you really don't get a full sense of it unless you're encountering it as a 3D object. Pictures are not blue justice. Second of all, it's a really, really unique piece of commercial history, but I think what really struck me most of all was the context. If you go downtown, if you go to Oak history, if you go to T.W.U., just being there today, you get a pretty good sense of what the area looked like 50 or 100 years ago. If you go to West University today, there is nothing there that gives you a sense of what that place looked like 50 or 100 years ago. This is one of the last surviving pieces of that. I was actually going to encourage the city to think even bigger than their biggest case on the paper. Not just an exhibit at Den Public Library, but maybe moving to the library or to North Lake Park, which I think is the closest public park to the area, as not only a piece of history, but as an art object of its own right. I was also going to ask, has there been any attempt at doing a broader interpretive effort or display on West University 100 years ago? Because I think that would probably turn up some really fascinating stuff if that has not been ... No, there has been no discussion. Like I stated, staff just received a letter and that the interested party no longer lives in Denton and just had visited recently and realized that this was the last remaining piece of our family tied to Denton and just felt very strongly that if we could find a way to preserve it, or tell the story of Park Place and maybe the larger history of university, she just would be very eternally grateful for that. I found it very compelling. Is that UBH? Is that the property that it's on? Yes. I mean, obviously in the letter we gave a little bit of information that it was converted in the 1930s. There was a dairy, if I remember correctly. Do we know how long this structure was standing? Do we know anything about the history of it other than what is included in that letter, which we don't technically know. We would need to research it to make sure. We would need to conduct additional research. I did some preliminary aerial reviews and it looks like there were some additions and changes made both in going through the 1930s through the 1950s. By the 1970s, it was no longer there. So it stood there, underwent some alterations, and then it was gone by the late 1970s. But Commissioner McAdams, you took it for a bow? Well, it is just such a small piece that you really don't notice it. You can just pass by and know where it's time to sit. And I suspect it will get lost if we do this, that they'll not be able to keep up with that, and that it will be lost. So it was a nice gesture of her to point that out, but I don't see a place for it. I'm afraid that it would just be lost, quite frankly. I'm happy to bring up Google Maps if that's easier, if that would be more helpful. When it separated from where it was, which it obviously already is, and just placed somewhere, I'm not at all sure of the historical value of that. You're talking about tax dollars now. It's a relatively small piece. In fact, I had walked over to all of us before and discovered what it actually was. And the people out there don't have any knowledge about it at all. Well, I was wondering, too, whether it could be dug up, moved, and I don't know about whether I don't have an opinion yet, whether I think that justifies the expense, but I'm intrigued hearing your up close and personal, if it's truly representative of some style, that there's value in relocating it. Is that a different question? Was she requesting designation where it is now? She was looking just for some type of recognition of that, of Park Place and her family's history along university. She said it was up to the city, what you determined to be the style of preservation. Her first choice had been a plaque and I said, "I don't know if that's necessarily the place for just a plaque. I don't think anyone's going to actually get to enjoy it as much as you'd hope." So then it was up for interpretation. So that's why it's being brought in front of the Historic Landmark Commission for you all to provide staff some guidance on what might be the next steps. Yes. So if we didn't want this, could we punt it with the Public Art Commission? Yes. That's an opportunity. Okay, because yeah, I'll say this. I have a real major concern. I mean, also, Commissioner Black raised some interesting points about this vernacular art. Just where that is at is so precarious. It can be taken out so easily and disappear. So my instinct is, can we get it and then figure out what to do with it later? Because it'll wind up getting either run over, plowed over, or some vehicle's just going to obliterate it, and then it'll be gone, maybe gone. So because I was having a hard time judging the size, but compared to that nearby, I've actually got a picture with my hat on top of it to give you some scale. Cool. And your hat can go on top of it. I would say, Mr. Black, if you don't mind if we pass it on the other side. Okay. Of course. And I wonder about, obviously, it is lost out there where it is now. Yes. Right. But since nobody knows or remembers anything at all about that structure, I'm wondering, you know, plunk that up and take it somewhere. Yeah. Well, so just to, I'm just kind of spitballing here, too, for the location where it's at. Thank you. So, I mean, we could possibly do something, because it does tell a story, that part of town that is like non-recognizable, we can agree with that, right? But maybe it was like, I mean, some type of exhibit, embassy suite for visitors to then get an impression of what it's like for them. Well, I was thinking that, I don't know the name of the park, but that park that's about three blocks north of there, I feel like, I mean, I have absolutely no idea how much it costs to excavate and stabilize and move a structure of that sort. I don't know if that's $1,000 or $100,000, I'm sure it's $100,000. I feel like, for me, I think we need to know a little bit more about it. Is it representative of what West University looked like back then? You know, maybe there's a story to tell, right? I don't know where it would be, 'cause I've never researched it, but maybe there is a story to tell about West University, just like there are other parts of the city, but I don't know that story yet. Well, there's also, I'm curious, because there's a missing piece, because this also might have been because of its dairy connection, Cameron immediately made me wonder about the agricultural stations that became common after the Great Depression, because there were several agricultural stations out there on that side of town. And I know that Razor himself was in charge of several of those stations out there, and the ones that I have seen written up were more about like grain and like trying to develop crops that can grow here and soil rehabilitation and things like that, right from the best fall. But a dairy would have been part of that. So I'm wondering if the station is more of like, that was a part of that agricultural station system. So more information needed, please. So I just wanted to jump in. So I guess in terms of giving staff feedback, would the next steps be for staff to essentially create an informational staff report, doing further research, and then either presenting that to you all at a formal meeting or send it to you all via email for you all to read, and then we could bring it back as an item, or I could bring it back saying, you know, based off this report that I sent via email, here's the agenda item for us to assess next steps. Would that be what you want to provide in terms of staff direction, or do you want to still have some more discussion? I mean, it's hard for me to have too much discussion without a little bit more information about. And can we, as John suggests, also get a ballpark estimate on transporting the things someplace? Because yeah, I agree that where it is, it's not good. I feel like it either needs to be, you know, maybe on one of the libraries or North Lakes Park. And if that takes it out, I mean, it's an hologram situ at that point in time, but. I make a motion of maybe a staff report via email a little bit about perhaps an initial scan of perhaps its prior significance and then if there is some estimate about its reclamation of storage, and then we'll bring that up as an item for our next meeting for the agenda, if I can get a second. Second. Oh. I guess we get a second. All in favor? Any more discussion of the motion? All in favor, aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed? Nay. All right. We're moving on to item four, which is a work session. Item four A, number HLC 25-05-1. To receive a report for discussion, give staff direction regarding Denton's historic district signage. Yes. Okay. Give us the sign. All right. So after doing some research, there's not much that kind of gives the historic landmark commission, I guess, leeway in terms of creating historic signage. Also, if you want to look at your AIS and provide some background information, but the two options that we have to really play with right now are the street sign topper program. So that's a program that started in 2022. It recognizes, if we can get it to pop up, there we go, it recognizes neighborhoods history or character, whatever the neighborhood wants it to basically do in terms of recognition for that neighborhood. Currently, we do have eight neighborhoods that are taking advantage of this. In the backup packet, I did state that there usually is a budget set aside in the city's annual budget. Unfortunately, for this fiscal year, there is no budget for the street sign topper program. So it would have to come out of the neighborhood's pocket if they have interest in it. So this is one program that currently does exist that can support additional signage. Another thing that you all will see, the Oak Hickory Historic District, they do have those brown and white signs in their neighborhood, staff was not able to determine why they specifically do. I'm assuming it's because it was established in the 1980s. That's what the neighborhood wanted. But there is no actual files on hand for me to actually state as to why they specifically have those signs. So I apologize. The Oak Hickory Historic District. So I wish I could provide more information there, but that doesn't mean that that's something that we can't talk, or like the commission can't talk about in terms of introducing those types of signs because we do have a streets department where we can introduce that kind of signage to the historic districts to call more recognition to their historical significance. So that's up for discussion as well. And then I did want to state that in the 2019 Denton Historic Preservation Plan, there is talk about creating a more comprehensive wayfinding and interpretive signage for historic. And that's as part of that partnership within that 2019 Historic Preservation Plan. It does state that that is a collaboration between the Denton County Office of History and Culture, the Historic Landmark Commission, as well as staff in both the county and the city level. So there are some options, but there's nothing that's just clean and easy where I can say, here you all go, run with it. So just wanted to kind of present you all with what's currently existing in terms of programs that exist, what's in our 2019 Historic Preservation Plan for Denton, that you all have some leeway in terms of working towards a future for wayfinding and signage, as well as just what kind of exists today. So any type of guidance that I can get from you all in terms of how to proceed with this information, or if you just want to table it until a later date, that's fine. Just looking for any guidance that you all have or interested to hear the discussion as well. Well, I'd like for it to be throughout the city, whatever it is, not individuals or neighborhoods, but their side, other side, but other neighborhoods. So you mean, it should be consistent. Yes. So I guess let me, I will pull up, or so I guess in terms of the signage right there, like something consistent like this for the historic districts. Whatever kind of signage, cell phone, I'd like it to be consistent, consistent. Okay. Well, and that would be for historic districts. Yes. Not necessarily the neighborhood signs, because you had a good list of areas and neighborhoods that had, they're not all historic. Correct. No, these are designated at the local level. These are all just local neighborhoods. But if they are designated at the local level as a historic district, then I think they should all have consistent signage. Is there a way the two systems could work together? Like maybe you've got like the big beautiful Oak Hickory style signs at the entry to the districts and main thoroughfares, and then the rest of the intersections are just the side toppers? So each of the districts does have those signs. I just happened to use the one from Oak Hickory in the report, but it does state that all three historic districts do contain that one large sign per entry point, but they do not have the individual streets name signs that are brown and white. I mean, thinking to what I see in other cities that trade well on the historical architecture, the sign toppers at every intersection seem to be the fairly, seem to be best practice. I should know the answer to this question, but I don't. The signage around town that directs people to various tourist sites and whatnot, do those have listings for our historic neighborhoods on them? And is that remotely within our purview or is that something that we can give guidance on? Yes, there's definitely something you all can give guidance on. That's in the, as I say, that's in the 2019 Denton Historic Preservation Plan, even with our design downtown Denton Plan, which passed in September of 2024, it talks about updating wayfinding signage. So anything historic that would be included in that wayfinding would be coming in front of the historic landmark for review, discussion, and approval. I mean, I kind of like the idea, particularly the ones in the vicinity of downtown. If, you know, anywhere we have signs that this is that way and this is that way or whatever, if maybe in a different color, you know, historic sites of any sort, whether that be a recognized neighborhood or something else, a courthouse kind of thing, I think that could be, I don't know, bringing in tourists right now. Yeah. So for historic, usually, I guess, what is considered to be, when you're looking for historical sites, you're usually looking for a brown sign with white lettering. And that's kind of universal across the US. So there's opportunity to do that. Or there's also the opportunity, you know, I'm using Swiss Avenue in Dallas, Swiss Avenue Historic District. I'm pretty sure they have sign toppers that say Swiss Avenue Historic District, and they have their special icon or logo. So kind of piggybacking on what Commissioner Black stated in terms of, you know, recognizing in between on those each of those streets, having a special sign topper, maybe, or recognition of those historic districts, especially in terms of the street signs. So I think there's different things that we can, that you all can play with. But there's just nothing that's like clean cut saying, okay, HLC, here's your historic signage that you can utilize and run with it. I wish there was. I wouldn't necessarily suggest like going way out of our way to start adding these types of signs but as they're, I mean, they're pretty regularly updated as it is, right, I think. For wayfinding? The signs to like various commercial sites and whatnot, tourist sites, I feel like they get replaced every 10 years or something. I was going to say, I would say every probably 10 to 15 years. I just think that it might be a good idea that as these are being replaced to consider kind of adding a new category onto them, not necessarily throwing away what we already have. And I really do love the idea of, you know, creating a more comprehensive interpretive wayfinding signage, but that seems like a discussion to come back to when the city actually has a budget again. Okay, then I guess, I guess for kind of just staff guidance and direction, maybe just tabling this and bringing it back perhaps in the spring of 2026 or the summer of 2026. In terms of when we might see more movement, staff can kind of decide when it's brought back, but at least table it and I can keep it in the matrix on the side. It seems like at the moment, they don't have a lot of free time, spare time at work, right? If they're sitting there and have nothing else to do, then by all means, come up with some ideas, but my impression is that there's not a lot of spare time. Well, the other factor to continue that you bring up rightly, Commissioner Helme, is to maybe come inside the timing whenever there are street replacement sign discussions. Right. So that seems the time, like that's the opportunity to time, right, to go in and say, hey, that's the way. While you're doing that. Linear is the cost, the added cost would be mitigated quite a bit, I would imagine. Yeah. So we'll figure out a way to put a placeholder on that, but meanwhile, as far as wayfinding too, I think relatively inexpensive, perhaps, if we could also make inquiries into our IT department about maybe getting some of these districts mapped out on, like, Google Maps. When people are driving, they notice that they're going through a historic district. I know that that's not the same as sign toppers, but at the same time, that might be something that might be, while they're in there updating maps and information, they might be able to even create something that visually kind of stands out in the same way that a sign topper would. Yeah. Yeah. And you said that the the three designated historic districts do have the entry signs. Correct. Yes. So that's Bell Avenue. Bell Avenue. Oak Hickory. Oak Hickory. West Oak area. West Oak area. Yes. Just one entry sign. No, and each entry. So for Bell, we have one located here, coming off of Sherman, and then one coming off of University. It was taken out, but it has been replaced. It was hard to get out, unfortunately. It's not being destroyed by speeding vehicles. Right. We just need to move that wall, Matt. It's a little ramp. And then we have one for the Oak Hickory historic district located here, and then we have one coming off Hickory when you're coming eastbound. And then I believe we also have one coming off of Mons Avenue coming in. And then for West Oak area historic district, we have one on Thomas Street, we have another on Oak Street, and then there was, there should be one on Marietta. So yeah, which is under construction, but there also should be one on Marietta. So that was something that I had worked on with Ron Mangita before. So those are the only three historic districts we have, and then we have historic neighborhoods? Is that the distinction? So we have three historic districts, local historic districts, and then we have two national register districts, but those are at the federal level. And then we, in terms of the street sign topper program, the neighborhoods in Southeast Eddon wanted to do more of a historic look in terms of how it was recognized as a neighborhood. So they went more of the historic route, but some of the other neighborhoods that are on that list, such as Westgate Park, they just put the year it was established, and then they did like a forest scene. So street sign toppers are up for interpretation by the neighborhood themselves, they're able to decide how they want it designed. And Lenny, were you saying earlier you would prefer that not be the case, or are you just talking about the entry signs? I know I'm talking about that. I want them generally uniform, but what they put on them may not be, but if we use brown and white signs, I'd like all the neighborhoods that are historic to be brown and white, you know, not green and blue over here, and yellow and orange somewhere else. Part of that is for when somebody is looking for the neighborhoods, they're easier to spot if it's a recognizable sign, you've seen it before. Do we need both of them? No, I got lots of good notes. Lots of directions? Yeah, I got lots of good directions and lots of good notes. Okay, anything else? Any other comments, observations, suggestions? All right, I guess we're moving on to item 4C, number... Oh, beautification standards, that's a different one, so it's still local historic districts, but it's a different wording, so it's the beautification standards, and it's a little confusing, yeah. So yeah, so now we're going to, this is C25-050, receive a report, hold discussion, give staff direction regarding beautification standards and/or expectations for Denton's local historic districts. Yes, so similarly, within our Denton Development Code, it does state that the role of the Historic Landmark Commission and all the different procedures that fall within your purview, such as this certificate of appropriateness, historic landmark destination, all of that, the main goal of the preservation program itself is to protect and enhance, develop appropriate settings for such places, foster civic pride in the beauty of Denton, and then protect and enhance city's attractions for tourists and visitors. So that's the general goal of historic preservation and you all's role within that. However, that's all that's provided within the Denton Development Code. So what we currently, that you all as a commission have to work with in terms of looking to how to resolve issues within the historic district now, or potentially things that can be built on in the future. I just shared in kind of the backup packet, but you all are probably very familiar with code enforcement itself. I feel like this is such a bummer of all these work sessions because there's not a lot of things to provide. But so code enforcement and property maintenance, obviously, that's the number one thing in terms of how do we keep our area and our neighborhoods looking nice, making sure that people are following code, you know, taking care of their properties itself. But outside of that, we also have some different grants and opportunities that could assist some of our neighborhoods as well as assist some of the rental property owners or renters in our different historic districts, so I did just want to share those all with you. So this is the Neighborhood Empowerment Grant, and I'm going to share just these links with you all. You all got them in your email, but I could just share them on the PowerPoint itself. It might be a little bit easier, but this is a reimbursement grant of up to $10,000, and it helps with physical improvements to your neighborhood. It helps with public safety programs or initiatives. It helps with cultural, educational, and recreational programs for the neighborhood. It also helps with a neighborhood master plan or comparable studies that focus on enhancing the neighborhood. So that is an opportunity, but the neighborhood itself would need to match that award with 100% through financial contributions, in-kind donations, or volunteer hours. So that is an option, and that is something that we can share with our local historic districts as an opportunity that they can take advantage of if they are interested. We also have our Home Owner Repair Assistance Program. So this just helps with home repairs, making sure that those are staying intact and that people have a safe and healthy place to live. It also helps with roofing, which is obviously an exterior feature. And then similarly, we also have the rental -- I don't want to ask Denton anything. We also have the Rental Repair Assistance, and that's up to $24,500 of financial assistance per unit for rental unit repairs. So it talks about who's eligible, what kind of systems are eligible for that, the foundation repairs. That would be big for historic properties, roof repairs. So not as much as saying, "Oh, people should be doing this type of landscaping," or, "People should be maintaining it to this degree," because it's a historic district. But we do have some programs in place. We do have some opportunities that people can take advantage of, it's just making sure that they're aware that these programs are in place and that they can take advantage of them and utilize them. But in terms of kind of just staff direction, I don't know if it would be helpful to have community services come and talk about these additional programs that we have, or if you all have interests in maybe creating some type of standards in terms of beautification, or if it's going out to these individual neighborhoods and just having a conversation and say, "Hey, you all are a tourist attraction for the city." It not only supports your property value, but you should take pride. This is the historic character and nature of our community and you're living in a really cool area. So I think it's a balance between both actual physical programs and education and kind of getting people excited about that, but just seeking any type of direction or interested to kind of hear you all's feedback. But once again, I wish there was more I could offer, but this is kind of what we currently have in place at the city that can kind of help with those beautification options or opportunities in the local historic districts. I'm sure community service is going to love this, but I think it would be great if we could come in on here, or they could come in and we could hear from them. Yeah. I mean, I don't disagree with that. I think the key thing that a city can do in these sorts of situations is try to find ways to empower the homeowners there, and money is nice, to be sure. I went to Chicago earlier this year and I took a tour of Pullman, Illinois, which is an old company town, and most of the factory buildings are gone. Like 90% of the housing is still there, and the only reason why is because over the years, developers keep trying to come in and buy up the housing and sell it and gentrify it and all this sort of stuff. But the residents care about the history, they care about the fact that those buildings were part of this company town, and I'm sure they've had financial help along the way. But the more that we can do to make homeowners feel empowered and want to preserve these neighborhoods, the better off the neighborhoods will be. If they don't care, then it doesn't matter what programs you have, it's not going to look good. In terms of action, I'm not sure what to ... But maybe, I mean, meetings with the community, these sorts of things can be helpful at some point, and maybe they need to be educated on the history of that neighborhood. Some of the people in the neighborhood, I'm sure, know the history very well, but many of them don't. I'm not sure if that actually provided any feedback. No, I'm in agreement with you, I mean, of course there has to be some type of investment and kind of initiative on the part, but there might be another way to lean into that too. So we have some smaller groups here in town that this might offer them tools to help accelerate things that they're looking at, I'm thinking specifically of Stronger Denson. They have a Strong Towns initiative about helping to bring back neighborhoods and trying to figure out really grassroots ways that have been studied in other places to bring to Denson in order to develop more of the kind of town that we want to grow into, because the thing they say all the time is like, "The growth is coming," but how do we do smart growth? How do we do deliberate strategic growth, right? Build a stronger town that we want to see. So think about how that can be used to develop areas of like Southeast Benton or some other districts here in town to elevate them to where they would then become showcase districts, they could become maybe destinations in terms of having events and things like that, drawing to small business. So yeah, what's the name of the lady up in North Lakes that's always angry about the lights and the crosswalks up there, she's got a Facebook group page that, yeah, yeah, I mean, she's trying to start to do pop-ups in the neighborhood and things like that. And some of these down these initiatives... Pop-up what? Well, they're pop-up markets and just to get the neighborhood out and interacting to create a kind of destination for the neighborhood. I think to get back on topic, I think it's more so, what is your role as commissioners? What role can you all play in terms of making sure that our historic districts and any future local historic districts maintain a certain level and look and make sure that they're vibrant and stay vibrant and that people are interested and want to invest in that vibrancy? Yes. I've got two background questions and as a newish commissioner, maybe everyone else knows this except me, so please forgive me. First of all, does Code Enforcement, sorry, Community Improvement Services Team recognize any property maintenance violations that are unique to historical structures or properties? Or is it the same thing forever? Same thing forever. Okay. Also similarly, I see that under the Neighborhood Empowerment Grant, there are certainly some criteria that could be interpreted as historical structures or structural designations fitting under, but do any of those programs have criteria that specifically reference historical designation as possibly a factor in a... Not that I know of, but Community Services would be the best answer to that question. Okay. Sorry. No, those are great questions. And I did just want to state that a lot of cities are now starting to get their own Code Enforcement Officer specifically for historic properties, so maybe. Because you're enforcing the same rules? Well, the other cities are creating different rules for their historic districts and having a specific Code Enforcement Officer who's just dedicated to only historic properties and historic landmarks. Is it possible to get a short report on best practice regarding that and what other cities are doing that seems to be working or not working? I would take that. Yeah. My intuition tells me that Code Enforcement is not the best way to practice it. Yeah. Because I think... It's not about enforcing it, it's about... More care at last. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's what improves communities. Well, economic incentives, that's the reason I was kind of going in that direction is thinking about ways to incentivize interest. So, I guess just to make sure, so best practice for maintaining and beautifying local historic districts? Is that accurate? Yeah. I would be interested to know the relationship of Code Enforcement, whatever they call it, and wherever we're talking about, what role they play and whether that is seen as effective. To me, I just... If anything, it makes me feel better. Code Enforcement makes me be really bitter when I go mow my lawn when it's 110 degrees outside, but it's not inspiring me to create a better neighborhood. I think that's a good point. Yeah, I keep feeling the education could be promoted in this, too. I keep people aware of these programs when they weren't what all the funds were in them. I don't know if this would be appropriate or not, but would a home in a historic neighborhood be given any sort of preferential treatment with regards to qualifying for any of these programs? I don't know that that is a good idea. I'm just curious if that's how it already is, or if there's anything like that in place already. That's what I was trying to get at, as well, for us not being able to do that. I don't know. I'm not sure to the answer. I think, as part of also direction to staff, is invite community services back to specifically talk about these and how they can help with our local historic districts, whether they can be utilized in the same way, or they might be voted against, saying, "Oh, well, you all have tax exemption opportunities that other people don't have." So I can invite community services to have that kind of discussion. I'm not sure I want to gatekeep these programs to only people in historic districts. Yeah. Okay. Any other comments? All right. Then we're on to item 4C, number HL C25-042, "Receive a report, hold a discussion, give staff direction on the Historic Landmark Commission's request for local historic designation of eligible historic properties." So this is, for those of you that are new, this is the concluding part, where if we have some historic properties around that we have questions about, we have a project matrix here that, of course, we're able to kind of jumble around and make things priorities. So this is where, if you see some pet projects running around, you can come and ask to investigate or look at them. Just by way of explanation, I, for example, went on a side quest to try to see if I could get Mr. Frosty's, who once again considered historic designation, and that became ... Did you need to get it on the side? Did it work? Well, it worked for him to give me a hell no. Okay. Okay. So that worked again. I was like, wait. But I keep going back and trying to find different ways to try to get him to think about historically preserving that space, right? But anyway, so it's just a way for us to then bring attention and focus back to maybe something that we see now or projects that we'd like to, say, get an update on to figure out, hey, what's the history of that place? Because then I figured out, no, there's a history there. We got him several times. He ain't about it. Actually hostile. Keep trying. No, that's my point. It's like, yeah. Every single day, it's like, I'm actually really close. Do we have any ... Any historic properties? Still no word from Oak Street? No. They're not turning anything in? No. What is this Oak Street? Oak Street. Okay, gotcha. Okay, so haven't heard back from any of the 30 plus properties I sent. I did get one interest from a property in Deenia neighborhood. They own a mid-century modern home. They've been inquiring about the local designation process and what that looks like and some of the incentives. They said they're not able to do anything right now, but they said they think they're going to apply at the beginning of 2026. We might see one in February of 2026, come through. I'm sure there's probably a very extensive document online that I can probably locate. Could you give me a Cliff Notes version of what the benefits to the property would be in a situation like that? I am going to call you both individually to do a training with you all, but I can give you a Cliff Notes just real quick. Before that we do offer, so the tax exemption application that came forward earlier, that's one of the benefits that comes with local designation is that you can get up to, you're eligible for that and you can get up to 50% of your city property tax forgiven for up to 10 years and then you can reapply every 10 years. So very much the Cliff Notes, but I will connect with you all afterwards to find a good time. All right, last chance. Okay, well then we're going to move ahead to item 4D, number HLC 255043, and that's the whole of the discussion regarding the Historic Landmark Commission Project Matrix. Back into the matrix we go. So we've covered the historic district signage, larger discussion, beautification standards, expectations, staff will bring that back with some of those staff reports and additional information. We do have the discussion and creation of a possible historic designation for North Locust and North Elm Street corridors that's going to be brought back on November 10th, along with that template and agenda for HLC members on November 10th as well. And then as we're getting closer to the end of the year, staff will be working on doing an annual update for you all in terms of the goals for 2025 and just kind of the overview of how many COAs, all that kind of stuff that's reviewed, but that will be coming forward in a few months. I can't believe we're almost to the end of 2025, but yeah, is there anything additional that you all want to add to the matrix? Obviously, I have some of my marching orders from our earlier discussions, but is there anything additional that you all would like to add? Let's finish the year strong. Any discussion? Well, I have a question, like on some of the ones that from last year, so that was before my time today, but I'm seeing the Discuss Stop Work Order fees. Yes. The Discussion Board is working without COAs, so you had the discussion and was that implemented? No, so those were based off after the discussion, myself put those on there just because those were items that were mentioned. However, there were no formal votes taken on them to be added to the actual matrix, so they've just been sitting on there since July of 2024, so they need to be resolved. So either you can ask them to be removed, and I will remove them, or you all can take a vote and have them added to the matrix, but as of right now, they're just kind of sitting in limbo waiting for discussion or removal. We can add it to the matrix one meeting, and then we are able to have a discussion the next. Well, so you would need to vote to have this added to the matrix, so I would need at least three people who want to add that to the matrix, and then I could bring it back as a discussion, if that was correct. Right now, these are items that I brought forward as the Historic Preservation Officer based off just past discussions. Well, we didn't wait to bring those up in '26. That too. Questions, comments? All right, here we go. I guess we'll move to our concluding items before we have any other business to discuss. Hearing none, once, twice, three times gone, there's no other business, I'll now adjourn the meeting. It is 6.30, 6 p.m. Thank you all.