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 Good afternoon, at 5.02 p.m. Wednesday, October 8th, I will call our work session of the Denton

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 Planning and Zoning Commission to order with the quorum present.

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 Our first order of business is any citizen comments on consent agenda items.

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 I don't see anyone present.

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 Next we'll move on to clarification for agenda items on the agenda.

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 Any questions on the minutes or the consent agenda item tonight?

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 Commissioner McDuff?

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 May I go back, only because I'm sometimes slow and have several piles.

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 I have had several inquiries on my Facebook messenger and comments, and I also, on several

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 of my membership pages, community organizations, and I referred them to my email, and it was

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 very, you know, I always thought, how am I going to do this?

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 And so I am now going to, I said if you need to see, send me something, send something

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 to my city email, and I asked our marketing person to, I'll say it didn't benefit Legge,

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 I'll just say it.

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 And so she did, but I am now thinking, the other way would be the e-comment, it would

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 be quick, so I know I have that on our matrix to discuss, but I'm just, as a comment for

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 citizen input, so I wanted to make you aware of that out of the gate.

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 Thank you.

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 Any other questions on the consent agenda?

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 No, okay.

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 Individual consideration items.

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 First is FR250020.

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 Yeah, why don't you, feel free to step back in the hallway.

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 Yeah.

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 Just a brief intro.

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 We'll give you a knock.

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 A lot.

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 So let the record show that our Commissioner McDade is recusing herself.

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 All right, good evening, I'm Julie Wyatt, I'm presenting FR250020.

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 This is a replat of a property located on the west side of Loop 288, south of Audre

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 Lane.

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 It is a fourplex development.

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 It was platted previously.

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 A new developer has come in and has kind of changed the design of those fourplexes and

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 so they had to make some changes to the plat.

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 Right now they have some things that they do need to resolve in order to, for staff

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 to recommend approval, so we are recommending denial, however, we don't have any objection

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 to the requested extension to October 22nd.

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 Okay.

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 Any questions?

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 All right.

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 Thank you, Julie.

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 Yeah, thank you.

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 And then we have one public hearing this evening, item Z250013.

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 Welcome Mia.

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 Good evening, Chair, members of the Commission, Mia Hines, Senior Planner.

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 And this item, as stated in the caption, is a request to rezone a total of 6.63 acres

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 to the mixed-use neighborhood zoning district.

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 The property is located just south of East McKinney Street, approximately, or just west

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 of Glengarry Way and the property is currently, it's comprised of two properties.

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 One is zoned R4 and one is zoned RR.

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 It is in line with the comprehensive plan for moderate residential in this area and

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 so staff is recommending approval.

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 I do have a much more in-depth presentation to go over in the work session, but I'd be

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 happy to answer any questions or respond to any comments that you have at this time.

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 Commissioner McDuff.

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 Thank you, Chair Pruitt.

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 Ms. Hines, with this change, this would allow for multi-family dwellings, correct?

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 Correct.

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 And a multi-family dwelling is a code for apartment complexes, correct?

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 Correct.

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 Okay.

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 Okay.

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 Yep.

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 So yes, though, currently with the existing zoning district's multi-family is not permitted,

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 the MN district does permit multi-family.

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 Yes, but not the R4.

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 R4 or RR, no.

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 Yes.

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 Another question, if I may, I notice that they were wanting to, proposers were wanting

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 to have this rezoned to make the property more marketable.

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 Is that your understanding?

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 Yes, ma'am.

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 Yeah.

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 And the applicant will be here to answer some questions later, but essentially what they've

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 described and sort of submitted in their narrative, I think that I've attached that also, is they've

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 had interests for developing the property for a couple of different uses.

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 Some of them are much more intense than what we would actually support.

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 So we wouldn't allow for one of the more intense commercial zoning districts.

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 In this case, the MN district does come with some buffers and some mitigation requirements

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 that would minimize the impact any type of development would have on some of the surrounding

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 developments, specifically that we looked hard at the residential development to the

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 east there and how that might be impacted.

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 And ultimately, MN, it does meet our moderate residential future land use designation, and

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 it makes sense in this area.

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 I think it provides for a different set of standards that is much more pedestrian oriented

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 than other zoning districts.

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 So this was kind of that middle and the applicant's intent or purpose for rezoning this is to ultimately

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 sell it.

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 Okay.

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 I just want to get that out here, talk about it, because it caught me by surprise.

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 And one more, if I may.

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 It's my understanding as well, Ms. Hines, this is across from Ryan High School.

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 So I just want to say that out loud too.

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 That's of concern to me too with the traffic patterns.

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 There is a light currently at that intersection that does hopefully help with traffic in that

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 area.

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 I'm assuming at peak hours it's still significant, but there is a light at that intersection

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 that would support a commercial development on this property as well as the traffic that's

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 currently there with Ryan High School.

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 Would we do traffic studies, or would we consider that as well, would we not?

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 Yes.

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 Any new coming development, again, they don't have a development directly attached to this

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 zoning change request, but any incoming development would have to meet the MN standards, and they

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 would have to submit first trip generation numbers with their zoning compliance plan.

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 And if it's determined that those numbers are high enough, then a traffic impact analysis

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 would be submitted for review.

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 Okay.

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 Thanks.

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 I guess just one or two things that may already be in your backup report, so we don't need

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 to talk about them if they are, but one, if we could at the public hearing see a chart

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 of those compatibility buffers between different uses that are applicable to this zoning district

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 proposed, I think that would help understand, as well as kind of understanding how wide

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 this parcel is.

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 And then secondly, if you have handy the uses that would be precluded because of the proximity

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 to the school, that would be helpful as well.

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 I can definitely get the uses that would be precluded.

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 I think typically that's more of a, it's a state law thing, so I have to look that up

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 to confirm.

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 I do have a little bit of information that I'll go over more in depth in the regular

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 session, but just because you asked it here, as far as compatibility buffers and what we

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 require from a landscape standpoint, it would be the same regardless, it's imposed on the

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 new development.

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 So if the new development is commercial, then a 15-foot wide landscape buffer would be required

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 between the existing residential property and the development of its multifamily, then

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 it's a 10-foot wide landscape buffer that would be required.

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 As far as height restrictions, that's one of the other things that's special about the

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 MN district, is that they do have a maximum 65-foot height requirement, but there is special

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 restrictions that if you're adjacent, directly adjacent to a residential zone property, then

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 you cannot go over 40 feet without first obtaining a specific use permit.

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 So if they were proposing something higher than basically what is already, or what would

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 be allowed in like an R7, they would have to come back before this body.

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 And I will note that that is slightly different from the RR district that currently just allows

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 the 60-foot height and doesn't have that different SUP requirement for over 40 feet.

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 Okay.

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 Thank you.

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 Any other questions?

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 Commissioner Dio?

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 I just want to make sure that I'm understanding what I'm hearing and seeing.

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 Since some of the information that you have attached to the agenda is the future land

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 use map.

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 Do you have that in your- Let's see.

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 So it's this map here.

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 Right.

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 Yes.

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 So that looks to be, this property looks to be in moderate residential.

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 Is that coincide with the MN that they're asking?

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 Yes.

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 So the mixed use neighborhood district does allow for the moderate and sort of that missing

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 residential.

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 So it allows for town homes as well as multifamily.

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 And depending on how the lot is plotted out, it could get over, I think that the moderate

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 residential future land use designation has a density of approximately six to 12 million

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 units per acre.

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 But realistically with this property, with the trees that are on site currently and they

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 would have to preserve, and then the distance requirements that they would have to be set

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 back from the single family development, I think with a multifamily development, if that

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 were to occur, you would end up getting about the density that we have for the moderate

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 residential designation.

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 And then similar on the other hand, if the property comes in to develop as commercial,

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 because right now we really don't know what the end user would be, if it does come to

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 develop as commercial, it's more of those neighborhoods scaled commercial requirements

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 for the MN district.

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 So it would be something useful for the surrounding residences or neighborhoods or whatever, and

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 they would still have to adhere to those setbacks and buffers and things.

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 - So that property directly to the east is single family homes, single detached.

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 And is it my understanding that city staff was requested to produce a whole like report

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 on apartments on multifamily and how many units the city had, how many were vacant and

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 all of that, is that true?

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 - We did give a report, I think Haley gave a report earlier this year on the total multifamily

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 and single family counts and sort of how they align with our overall goals, yes, we have

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 done that.

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 - And how are we sitting at vacancies, 'cause I'm just kind of curious that if this is being

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 potentially changed for marketability, and I mean, personally, I see the chatter on some

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 of the community pages about the like or dislike.

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 - So I'll add a little bit and then try to focus us back on the zoning case, because

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 this isn't a specific land use that they are requesting, it's just the zoning change.

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 So any of the uses that are permitted in MN would be permitted if this should go forward.

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 We haven't received, as far as public comments, we haven't received any responses in opposition

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 to the request or the broad request.

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 I tried to stay off of social media for work purposes, so I'm not sure on that end.

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 But as far as official like responses to the city or inquiries or calls even, I haven't

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 gotten anything in opposition to the proposed.

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 - Are there huge vacancies of apartments?

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 - I'd look to Haley for that, that might be a question that we need to research.

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 - Maybe that's just information you can bring at the meeting tonight to give you guys some

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 time.

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 I'm just, because I understand that this isn't to approve a potential development, but by

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 approving a zoning change, it does, if this goes through, it does open up the door as

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 those is one of the potential outcomes.

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 - Sure.

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 Go ahead.

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 - Yeah, I'll just say, I don't think we have good data from a city perspective of

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 vacancy.

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 It's something that's private data.

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 There are industry groups that you're aware of that you can purchase stuff from and you

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 trust them as much as you do or not.

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 We need to stay focused on the zoning case.

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 Did you have anything else?

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 - I understand the concern, but there's a lot of zoned lands for other uses that are

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 not in demand in the city as well, right?

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 - Okay, those are just my questions.

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 - Yeah.

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 Commissioner Riggs.

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 - Yeah, so I mean, I'm looking at the size, very skinny, skinny site.

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 I'm not sure how you'd do a whole lot of multifamily on there.

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 It seems like as if you'd have half of the site just be a roadway in.

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 And I think some of the concerns that you're hearing from the commissioners is that one

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 of the things we hear a lot is that we have oversaturation of apartments.

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 - Commissioner Riggs, I'm gonna cut in.

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 We're getting into deliberation and it's great deliberation, but it's not what we're posted

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 for at this time.

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 So I'd ask to maybe bookmark those questions and comments and absolutely bring them up

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 in the public hearing portion.

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 'Cause the reason for that is because the applicant should be able to hear and respond

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 or other members of the public making comment, it would be more appropriate there.

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 And that's kind of for everyone.

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 - Yeah, let me ask you, would it be appropriate to ask, is there another zoning that would

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 just be townhomes?

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 - Yeah, questions are absolutely appropriate at this time.

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 - Is there another zoning that would preclude it just to townhomes and not apartments?

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 - That R7 zoning district, I believe, I have to double check that.

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 I think that R7 zoning district does allow for townhomes and would require the specific

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 use permit to come back before this body if they were to go for multifamily.

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 And we did consider, we did consider or bounce that idea off to the applicant that R7 zoning

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 district, but ultimately the MN, what they were requesting doesn't adhere to our criteria

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 for approval.

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 So we are recommending approval of the MN.

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 - Okay.

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 Any other questions or more data or information we need or see needing at the meeting?

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 Commissioner MacDuff?

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 - Just a question as well.

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 I agree with Commissioner Dyer about it would be interesting to have that not for tonight.

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 I think we're going to preclude it because of our time and our posting, as we say, but

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 the data on the apartments, because I think it does spill into everything.

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 This work session and the public deliberation and the matrix, et cetera.

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 - Okay.

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 All right.

239
00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:23,120
 Not seeing any more.

240
00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:24,120
 Thank you, Mia.

241
00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:25,120
 - Thank you.

242
00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:32,800
 - We do have a work session item, two work session items tonight.

243
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:43,680
 First is receiver report, hold a discussion regarding communal living and how small home

244
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,200
 communities could be developed in the city of Denton.

245
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,560
 - Julie Wyatt, principal planner with the city of Denton, and I am presenting communal

246
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,480
 living and small home communities.

247
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,480
 This was a matrix item that was requested last year.

248
00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,480
 We're finally coming to talk to you about it.

249
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,000
 I'm going to issue one maya culpa before we get into it, and that is it's a very large

250
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:09,720
 topic, a lot of broad things, so if I don't hit the mark, let me know and we can come

251
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,120
 back and continue the conversation.

252
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:13,760
 So with that, we'll get started.

253
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:20,280
 So we're going to talk about two topics, communal living and small home communities.

254
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,680
 We're going to talk about, we're going to define our terms.

255
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,760
 We're going to talk about some case studies, some common characteristics, and then the

256
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,360
 Denton Development Code regulations, which would typically apply to these.

257
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,520
 I want you to know, these are not separate topics.

258
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:43,000
 They're pretty intertwined, so the case studies, there's no one singular ideal example.

259
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:49,160
 So just know that there are approximations and that there are a lot of facets for both

260
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:55,040
 of these topics, which can affect a lot of different facets to the other topic.

261
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,880
 So here we go, we're going to talk about communal living first.

262
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:04,240
 There are really two broad topics that we're going to talk about in communal living, co-housing

263
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,960
 or intentional communities, and then also co-op housing.

264
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,680
 Co-housing or intentional communities, the ULI talks about emphasis on shared space,

265
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,960
 shared time, shared values.

266
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,120
 They're usually a collaborative effort between a small group of people.

267
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:25,780
 Co-op housing.org goes a little further to say really it is public space, but also private

268
00:19:25,780 --> 00:19:26,780
 homes.

269
00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:33,240
 So it's really making sure that residents have those private spaces, but also they want

270
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:39,960
 the community members in a cooperative and public area.

271
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,560
 Typically these have a condominium structure, but there are other ownership structures,

272
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,720
 and I've got one tonight.

273
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,480
 Co-op housing is different than co-housing in that you're not buying that private space,

274
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:59,160
 you're not buying a condo or a house, you're buying into an LLC, or I'm sorry, a not-for-profit.

275
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:05,480
 So you buy shares in that not-for-profit and then you live in that area.

276
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,720
 Participation, so buying into the not-for-profit usually requires approval by a board, and

277
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,520
 they're democratically managed.

278
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,360
 And it can apply to a variety of residential use types.

279
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,280
 I want to be careful.

280
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,160
 These are not really defined land uses.

281
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,120
 They are based on home or ownership structure.

282
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:32,000
 There are a lot of different uses that could go in these buckets.

283
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:38,000
 But typically, given the way that these are organized and owned, they are considered multifamily

284
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,460
 in the city of Denton, because condo ownership is actually considered multifamily.

285
00:20:42,460 --> 00:20:47,680
 Our definition for multifamily is five or more dwelling units on one platted lot.

286
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,360
 So with that, let's talk about some case studies.

287
00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:52,360
 Co-housing Houston.

288
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,520
 It's in Houston, Texas.

289
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,480
 It's an infill project in the second ward, a moderate density area.

290
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:04,080
 There is single family, there's townhomes, there's multifamily, a lot of different residential

291
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,500
 types in the area.

292
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:09,360
 This use is multifamily.

293
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:15,440
 The community has a common house, garden, shared decision-making, and community gardens.

294
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,400
 Ownership, this is kind of interesting, and I don't really understand it.

295
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,840
 Hillary would probably know a lot more, but each unit is owned by an LLC, and then the

296
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,480
 individuals are the fiduciaries.

297
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,680
 Affordability, it is not an affordable project.

298
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:36,440
 It is market rate, and in fact, there is one condo listed for $544,000 right now.

299
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:43,160
 The zoning that entitles it is none because Houston does not have zoning.

300
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:44,720
 Hartwood Commons.

301
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,520
 This might look familiar to some on the commission.

302
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,640
 This is in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

303
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:57,400
 It is located in a mixed-use area with commercial, employment, elderly housing, and other residential

304
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:58,600
 uses.

305
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:04,040
 This looks a lot like horizontal multifamily that we saw a lot of in the city of Denton

306
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:13,560
 about two, three years ago, so it really follows that kind of site layout that that horizontal

307
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:23,000
 multifamily had, one-story duplexes and then four-plexes on the site on one platted lot.

308
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,640
 This appears to be age kind of over 55.

309
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,360
 They have shared open space.

310
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:35,960
 The residents own their own home, as well as a share of the common property, including

311
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:44,480
 the common house, so they own their own condo, and then they also have ownership in that

312
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,440
 lot that it's sitting on.

313
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,240
 These are also market rate.

314
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:56,920
 It is starting at $429,000, and the zoning for the property is multifamily.

315
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:57,920
 And then a last one.

316
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,600
 I had to choose ones that had different, like, contexts and building styles.

317
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,680
 So this is Capitol Hill Urban Housing.

318
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,680
 It's in Seattle, Washington.

319
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,520
 It is in an urban dense neighborhood.

320
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,320
 It is multifamily.

321
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,720
 It looks like what you would imagine multifamily, right?

322
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:13,720
 Four or five stories.

323
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,120
 It's a 4,500-square-foot building.

324
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:19,340
 There are nine dwellings in it, no on-site parking.

325
00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:22,720
 They talk about intergenerational rooftop farm.

326
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,760
 They are required to share three meals a week.

327
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,700
 It is non-smoking and gun-free.

328
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:30,800
 So they definitely have a point of view in this community.

329
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,080
 The ownership is long-term rental.

330
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,400
 It's market rate, and the zoning is mixed use.

331
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,560
 So what are the common characteristics of these co-housing types?

332
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:45,840
 And just to let you know, I did not include a specific co-op, because once again, it's

333
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,600
 very similar to what these are.

334
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,920
 It really is depending on that ownership.

335
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,640
 And before I talk about the common characteristics, I don't know if you're familiar, but there

336
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,520
 is one similar in near Denton.

337
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,120
 It's the White Hawk community, and it is off of Locust to the north.

338
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:08,760
 It has been there since the 1970s, and the homes are partially built underground.

339
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,920
 So we have one local.

340
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,960
 So once again, not a defined land use.

341
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:20,200
 It is based upon ownership and how that is structured.

342
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,240
 Typically, these are designed as multifamily.

343
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,280
 It is not necessarily intended to meet affordability needs.

344
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,080
 It's usually intended to promote a sense of community.

345
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:37,160
 There are affordable ones, particularly in the co-op space, but in terms of co-housing,

346
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,480
 it really does seem to be mostly market rate from what I found.

347
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,840
 They really emphasize common amenities.

348
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:51,040
 Communities can be shared or organized around shared interests, lifestyle, age, location.

349
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:57,080
 And I found that they could either be ground up, so a group of residents could say, we're

350
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:03,340
 going to create this and then go find a developer and build it, or it could be developer driven.

351
00:25:03,340 --> 00:25:05,600
 How could you build one of these in the city of Denton?

352
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,760
 Well, really, we have the regulations already kind of in place because they, once again,

353
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,040
 would follow our multifamily.

354
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,720
 So we're just going to kind of go chapter by chapter in the Denton Development Code.

355
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,800
 In chapter 212, we have affordability incentives that applies to multifamily.

356
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,920
 It would apply to this.

357
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:33,700
 Our incentives allow developers to maybe increase building height or reduce parking in exchange

358
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:39,420
 for including affordable units within their projects.

359
00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:42,760
 Multifamily is allowed in MN, MD, and MR.

360
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,860
 It requires an SUP and R7, SC, HC, and GO.

361
00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:51,820
 So there are a variety of districts where this type of use would be allowed.

362
00:25:51,820 --> 00:25:54,960
 We do not separate condominiums out as a separate use.

363
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,720
 Once again, it is under the multifamily umbrella.

364
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,960
 We have residential use standards.

365
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,320
 Minimal multifamily dwelling unit size is 400 square feet.

366
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:11,960
 And in mixed use districts, the bottom floor has to be at least 12 feet in height.

367
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:18,560
 In terms of SUP Chapter 7 and site design, parking, two-way drive aisles are typically

368
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,720
 26 feet wide.

369
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,160
 And multifamily parking is based on the number of bedrooms.

370
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,240
 Multifamily projects over 10 require 8 percent open space.

371
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,760
 And then the buildings, their specific building orientation depending on where it is and the

372
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:34,760
 type of buildings.

373
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:41,640
 There are also some general fire safety considerations that one would have to keep in mind.

374
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,560
 Not necessarily apply to all, but things like sprinkler in the building, fire lanes adjacent

375
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,360
 to buildings, hose lay.

376
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:53,700
 You want to make sure all parts of the building can be reached by a hose.

377
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:56,500
 And then adequate access.

378
00:26:56,500 --> 00:27:03,200
 And finally, platting, lot planning, essentially the lots have to meet the minimum zoning.

379
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,840
 So did you have any questions about co-housing or should we do questions at the end?

380
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,600
 Yeah, let's take a break, I think Commissioner Riggs had something before we get too far.

381
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:17,080
 I just had a question about one of the examples that you had where the essentially looks like

382
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,080
 there's garages off to the side, the one you were just on.

383
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,080
 This one?

384
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,080
 Yes.

385
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:30,960
 So who maintains that drive aisle, who maintains, or how does the ownership of those garages

386
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:31,960
 split up?

387
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:32,960
 You know, that's a good question.

388
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:39,580
 I would anticipate that because all residents own a piece of the common area that it would

389
00:27:39,580 --> 00:27:45,040
 have to be maintained by their association or their LLC.

390
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,040
 Okay.

391
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:51,240
 I just had to deal with a few of those and those ended up being a lot of problems later

392
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,240
 on in the future.

393
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,240
 Okay.

394
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,240
 Right.

395
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,240
 Keep going.

396
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:58,240
 Thank you.

397
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,240
 Okay, moving on.

398
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:00,240
 All right.

399
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,240
 And now we have small home communities.

400
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:06,440
 What we're going to talk about is tiny homes, zero lot line and small lot and then cottage

401
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:07,440
 courts.

402
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:13,360
 So, just define our terms, a tiny home per the tiny home industry association is a single

403
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:18,800
 dwelling unit suitable for a full-time habitation of less than 400 square feet.

404
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,080
 It can be on a permanent or movable foundation.

405
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,880
 When we talk about suitable for full-time habitation, we're thinking it's got to have

406
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,520
 a kitchen, it's got to have a bedroom, it's got to have a place to live and it's got to

407
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,320
 have a bathroom, sanitation.

408
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,720
 Our building safety, we talked to them.

409
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,160
 Tiny homes are not HUD manufactured homes.

410
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,160
 Those are different things.

411
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,320
 They have different industry standards.

412
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,320
 They are inspected within the city of Denton, subject to specific building codes and in

413
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,040
 the city of Denton, in order to be considered a tiny home, it has to be on a permanent foundation.

414
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:57,920
 We do not allow tiny home developments to be on a movable or chassis, some other foundation.

415
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,140
 The DDC defines that tiny home as anything between 300 and 500 square feet.

416
00:29:03,140 --> 00:29:11,880
 If it is not on a permanent foundation, it is in the recreational vehicle bucket as a...

417
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,520
 I've got it later.

418
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,160
 It's not one that goes on its own.

419
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,760
 It's one that's a travel trailer.

420
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,480
 That's it.

421
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,680
 And then tiny shelter, that is something we kind of hear about.

422
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,160
 A tiny shelter is not a dwelling.

423
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,080
 It is a detached building without some key elements.

424
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,920
 So it might be just a place to sleep and a bathroom, but no kitchen, or it may have no

425
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,680
 bathroom or kitchen, just a place to sleep.

426
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:36,680
 There are lot line homes.

427
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,960
 We had one of these recently, so I thought I'd toss this in here.

428
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,720
 These are single family dwellings arranged on individual lots, either as detached structures

429
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,560
 and with one or more side walls on the property line.

430
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:58,280
 So if you have your lot line, one of the building sides would be on that lot line.

431
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,000
 If you're just a small lot, it would be kind of centered in a lot, but the zero lot line

432
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,520
 has to be on that property line.

433
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:12,800
 And then cottage courts, those are kind of a different residential type.

434
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,920
 And one place that really defines this is missingmiddlehousing.com.

435
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,600
 If you've not gone to that website, it's pretty interesting, you should check it out.

436
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:27,200
 But it is a group of small detached structures, and it's arranged in a shared courtyard.

437
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,840
 Okay, so let's talk about some case studies.

438
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,640
 So this one is close to home.

439
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,140
 Tried to pick things that kind of were analogs to Denton.

440
00:30:35,140 --> 00:30:37,640
 So we have the Lake Dallas Tiny Home Village.

441
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,880
 It is just south of here.

442
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,720
 If you've not been, it is in an infill area, mixed use, including commercial, single family,

443
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:45,720
 government.

444
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,520
 They do have tours, if you're interested on their website, they have tours.

445
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,220
 The type of use, these are small travel trailers, so these are not tiny homes the way Denton

446
00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:56,220
 defines them.

447
00:30:56,220 --> 00:30:58,960
 They are not on a permanent foundation.

448
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,200
 They have to be tied down, they have to have skirting.

449
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,760
 The community has 13 lots.

450
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,680
 The lots are 800 and 900 square feet.

451
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,400
 Each house can have two vehicles, and the maximum home size is 340 square feet.

452
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,400
 The tiny homes are individually owned.

453
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,520
 They rent the space.

454
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,720
 And that's about, the space is about 700 to 750 a month.

455
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,800
 I think that includes water, wastewater, and also solid waste.

456
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,800
 And the zoning that made it happen was a planned unit development, or I'm sorry, planned development

457
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,880
 district, other places called planned unit development.

458
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,000
 But yes, so they used a PD in order to allow this.

459
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,000
 Some other tiny home communities that I thought kind of captured the breadth of what tiny homes

460
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,000
 could be.

461
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,480
 This was kind of neat in Oklahoma City, Pivot Tiny Homes.

462
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,360
 This is actually kind of purpose-built, in that they are permanent homes.

463
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,640
 They are on foundations.

464
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,320
 But they provide social services for youth who are transitioning to adulthood, maybe

465
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,160
 youth in foster care, youth whose parents are not around.

466
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,920
 So it gives them no support for, as they're transitioning to adulthood.

467
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:13,400
 A PUD was used, so that's what Oklahoma City calls that, but the use is multi-family.

468
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:22,520
 So it's a variety of homes on permanent foundations on one lot.

469
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,120
 And then the Waters Tiny Home Community.

470
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,120
 This is also in Texas.

471
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,900
 It is in a semi-rural area, and it really is just an RV park.

472
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:34,640
 But it is a community for 55 and older.

473
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,840
 The homes must be owner-occupied.

474
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,700
 Permanent foundation is not required.

475
00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:41,080
 They do have a lake.

476
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,220
 The tiny homes are individually owned, and once again, those lots are rented, and they

477
00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:46,880
 rent for about $600 to $675.

478
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:52,880
 It's outside the city limits, so there's not a zoning district to really reference.

479
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:59,860
 When we talk about zero-lot line or small lots, I brought a variety of sample of examples.

480
00:32:59,860 --> 00:33:03,080
 We have a one-in-flower mound just south of here.

481
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,000
 They've got a minimum lot size of 4,000 square feet.

482
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:12,040
 It is their central business zoning, so it conforms to that existing zoning.

483
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,680
 They have that side yard setback of one feet, so it's not quite zero-lot line.

484
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,000
 But the homes do have to be separated by 10 feet.

485
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,440
 That's for fire rating, so it's kind of a standard.

486
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,840
 If you are closer than 10 feet, the walls have to be fire rated.

487
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,760
 And the lots are 40 feet wide.

488
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,760
 They are alley-loaded, from what I can see.

489
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:46,200
 In Coppell, there's one development in kind of the Old Town area.

490
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,840
 It's a commercial area with some residential.

491
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,000
 Lot sizes range from 2880 to 3488.

492
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,400
 The side yard setbacks are zero and seven, so this is a zero-lot line community.

493
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,900
 Homes have to be 25 feet wide, and it is a planned development.

494
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:06,680
 And then finally, Plano has a zoning district which actually encourages this.

495
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,240
 So we've kind of got three ways to approach this.

496
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:11,400
 We have a zoning district which allows it.

497
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,600
 We have a planned development, and then we also have a zoning district where that is

498
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,360
 kind of what the city anticipates would be built there.

499
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,000
 Minimum lot area, once again, at 4,000 square feet.

500
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:30,240
 And in this specific instance, it's a planned development, but they do have that specific

501
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:34,580
 district.

502
00:34:34,580 --> 00:34:39,500
 Cottage courts, as I mentioned, this is kind of a missing middle house type.

503
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:45,040
 It is intended to be kind of between single-family detached and then multi-family, kind of that

504
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,040
 transition.

505
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:52,740
 It's intended to fit within existing infill lots, kind of smaller lots.

506
00:34:52,740 --> 00:34:57,880
 And cottage courts are detached residential, but they could also be multi-family, depending

507
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,160
 on how the lot is plotted, right?

508
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,880
 And organized around a central courtyard.

509
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,960
 Kind of the ideal would be five to ten units, one to one and a half stories, and then one

510
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,880
 to two parking spaces per unit.

511
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,240
 One that is kind of similar to this is Conover Commons in Redmond, Washington.

512
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:16,480
 It's suburban infill.

513
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,240
 It is single-family detached or multi-family.

514
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:24,000
 I don't really know, because I couldn't discern the platting.

515
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,120
 But they are single-family detached units.

516
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,160
 It is a nine and a half acre site, 24 dwellings.

517
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:38,180
 4.6 acres could not be developed, because it had a pretty steep slope and wetlands.

518
00:35:38,180 --> 00:35:39,800
 Each home has a private yard.

519
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,040
 I thought this was interesting.

520
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,200
 They require, how they design it is residents pull into their garage, and then they have

521
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,480
 to walk around into the public space to get into their home.

522
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:56,360
 So it really is forcing those community members to interact with the community.

523
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,600
 Kind of reminiscent of that co-housing, like that shared common space.

524
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,600
 I believe it's private ownership, shared open space, but once again, it kind of depends

525
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,740
 on the platting.

526
00:36:08,740 --> 00:36:09,740
 Not affordable.

527
00:36:09,740 --> 00:36:14,100
 A unit sold in August for $850,000.

528
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:16,560
 But they were required to have one affordable unit.

529
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,120
 It actually, the zoning was pretty interesting.

530
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,280
 It was an innovative housing demonstration project.

531
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,600
 And I believe the community allows for five a year.

532
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:32,040
 And just kind of these interesting development plans.

533
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,040
 There's a process.

534
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,120
 They have to go to neighborhood meetings.

535
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,520
 There's architectural review boards.

536
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:41,440
 So it's an intensive process in order to develop these in Redmond, Washington.

537
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,360
 And I thought this one was really interesting as well.

538
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:44,360
 East Lake Commons.

539
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:50,480
 Once again, this kind of brings in all of the different housing types that I've talked

540
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:51,640
 about tonight.

541
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,680
 This is in Decatur, Georgia.

542
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,640
 It's actually in DeKalb County.

543
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,840
 Did I say that right?

544
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,640
 In Georgia, counties have zoning.

545
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:05,000
 I know we don't really have zoning in counties in Texas, but other states have zoning in

546
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:06,000
 counties.

547
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,960
 It is in kind of suburban Atlanta.

548
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,720
 It's located on 20 acres.

549
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:14,920
 It's small lot townhomes and also cohousing.

550
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:21,880
 It's 67 townhomes on individually platted lots with a community center, garden, orchard,

551
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,560
 and greenhouse, and also common area parking.

552
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,900
 The ownership is fee simple lots.

553
00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:31,000
 So you can see the site plan here on your screen.

554
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:36,920
 Each of those little boxes is a little lot in the middle of a big lot.

555
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,000
 And then the common areas are owned by the HOA.

556
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,840
 These are market rate.

557
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,840
 There was one listed for $389,000.

558
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:51,120
 I anticipate that this was actually built several decades ago or a couple decades ago.

559
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:56,760
 And so their current zoning doesn't really speak to this specifically, but I did find

560
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:03,320
 it was interesting in their zoning regulation that they allow cottage homes and urban single

561
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,600
 family defined uses in their use tables.

562
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,960
 And the cottage is a detached dwelling unit that is one to two stories, no greater than

563
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,380
 1200 square feet, arranged around a commonly shared open space.

564
00:38:15,380 --> 00:38:21,640
 So once again, it really follows that missing middle definition of cottage courts.

565
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,160
 And then they also have urban single family dwellings, which are residential dwellings

566
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,840
 that share a similar configuration to townhome develops.

567
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,980
 They may be attached or detached or zero lot line.

568
00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:37,600
 So that was interesting that they had those two use types defined in their code.

569
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,440
 Common characteristics, we see a lot of plan developments in all of these.

570
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,680
 Once again, they're kind of unique, kind of unicorns.

571
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,920
 Tiny homes, remember, if they are not on a permanent foundation, they really are kind

572
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,880
 of managed like RV parks.

573
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:59,120
 And foundations can be used where permanent dwellings are desired, particularly with the

574
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,440
 city of Denton's definitions, and we'll talk about those.

575
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:07,480
 So a lot line cottage courts, these zoning typically includes plan developments, but

576
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,440
 there are some based zoning districts that can be affordable, but it probably depends

577
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,440
 on location and amenities.

578
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,840
 And uses are typically those single family detached dwellings on separately platted lots.

579
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,980
 And it is really based upon lot size, access and design.

580
00:39:24,980 --> 00:39:29,740
 Sometimes they could be multifamily, particularly with cottage courts, because those could be

581
00:39:29,740 --> 00:39:33,660
 all on one lot, but just a range around the court.

582
00:39:33,660 --> 00:39:36,280
 So what are the applicable regulations?

583
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:41,200
 This once again, not an exhaustive list, and in subchapter three, we've got our zoning

584
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,080
 district dimensional standards.

585
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:48,320
 R7 and MN are probably the most relevant regarding these use types.

586
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,600
 R7, the minimum lot area is 4,000 square feet.

587
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:58,360
 It's very similar to Plano as well as Flower Mounds examples, lot width of 50 feet, lot

588
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:04,000
 depth of 80 feet, and then we have those setbacks.

589
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,000
 Zero lot line would not be allowed in this zoning district because you've got side yard

590
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,800
 setbacks, but smaller lots would.

591
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,440
 MN is a lot area of 2,500 square feet.

592
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:22,040
 It does not have any required side yard setbacks, so you could have zero lot line homes in MN.

593
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:27,520
 And just to let you know, per the code, lot depth is measured at the right of way.

594
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,320
 I'm sorry, lot width is measured at the right of way.

595
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,600
 These would apply to our affordability incentives when you've got single family, multi family,

596
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:42,320
 and tiny home developments, it would not apply to RV parks.

597
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,800
 So once again, those tiny homes would have to be on a foundation.

598
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:53,440
 And once again, providing affordable units would allow them to reduce parking or have

599
00:40:53,440 --> 00:41:00,780
 greater building coverage or changes in minimum dwelling unit size.

600
00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:03,800
 In subchapter five, that has our use tables.

601
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:10,240
 Single family detached dwellings are allowed in all of our R districts as well as MN.

602
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:15,560
 Once again, those R7 and MN are probably more consistent with what we could see in the small

603
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,840
 lot or zero lot line.

604
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:24,480
 Our R through R6, those lot sizes are much larger and really probably wouldn't fall within

605
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,560
 this milieu.

606
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,480
 Tiny home developments require a PD full stop.

607
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:36,980
 There is not a permitted use in our zoning table other than you would have to get a PD

608
00:41:36,980 --> 00:41:38,860
 to build that.

609
00:41:38,860 --> 00:41:45,520
 And then RV parks are allowed in our R and HI and require an SUP in R3, R4, R5, R6, R7

610
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,100
 and LI.

611
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:55,520
 And this would be similar to that Lake Dallas model where it would be on a chassis or tied

612
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,900
 down or skirting.

613
00:41:57,900 --> 00:42:02,440
 We do not have any minimum unit size for single family dwellings.

614
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:10,920
 So we have, remember, 400 square feet in multifamily, I believe 900 square feet in town homes and

615
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,280
 duplexes, but single family does not have any minimum unit size.

616
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:23,280
 And manufactured homes in our residential districts that allow single family could be

617
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:29,860
 allowed if the property gets approval of an SUP.

618
00:42:29,860 --> 00:42:33,240
 These are the use specific standards for these different types of uses.

619
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:38,240
 Tiny home developments, we talked about it, it's 300 to 500, permanent foundation has

620
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:43,040
 to be organized as a condominium development.

621
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:51,160
 And then RV parks, it limits the maximum occupancy, so it could not be used as a permanent dwelling.

622
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:58,440
 And it requires public bathrooms and the dry vial widths have to conform to the minimum

623
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,920
 dimensional standards.

624
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,080
 Residential streets require 55 feet of right of way dedicated, so keep that in mind as

625
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,600
 well as those alleys require 20 feet of width dedicated.

626
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:17,800
 And so in some of these use types, you see a lot of alley loaded, and that is another

627
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,780
 thing that has to be added to any project.

628
00:43:20,780 --> 00:43:23,960
 Single family detached dwellings require four spaces.

629
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:29,400
 They can be reduced to two, subject to approval, there's some criteria for approval.

630
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:34,600
 And then single family can be oriented toward green spaces or common areas.

631
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,840
 Once again, you've got those general fire considerations, you've got to make sure the

632
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:45,280
 air trucks can turn around, that they can access the properties.

633
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,840
 And then if they have a certain number of units and they would need secondary access

634
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,000
 or have to sprinkle it.

635
00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:00,840
 Subchapter eight has some regulations related to these types of uses.

636
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:07,660
 Residential lots have to have a minimum of 15 feet of frontage along a public street,

637
00:44:07,660 --> 00:44:13,600
 but up to three single family detached or townhome dwellings can be accessed through

638
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,320
 a private access easement, a private driveway.

639
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,880
 And flag lots, those are those lots that have a skinny little tail that come off the public

640
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,440
 right of way and then a larger property in the rear.

641
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:32,740
 They require 30 feet of width and a maximum of 300 feet.

642
00:44:32,740 --> 00:44:39,320
 Over 150 requires a turnaround once again for the fire trucks.

643
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:44,240
 We also have something in our Denton Development Code and I don't think, Haley may correct

644
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:51,600
 me, I don't think we've had one go forward yet since we adopted the 2019 Denton Development

645
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:56,480
 Code, but that is cluster subdivisions or auto courts.

646
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,400
 These require approval of a PD, so these are really single family homes.

647
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:05,320
 So it would be allowed in any single family district, it's just a PD would be required

648
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,200
 in order to plot the property.

649
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:14,400
 It would require a minimum of five acres, 30% continuous open space.

650
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,840
 Auto courts allow for an alternative to cluster subdivisions.

651
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:24,480
 Cluster subdivisions are really, well it doesn't have to be, they are intended for conservation

652
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:32,240
 development, so the intent is to cluster the residential portion outside of any maybe open

653
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:37,520
 space or environmentally protected spaces.

654
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,400
 Auto courts are a little bit different in that they allow up to four single family units

655
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,280
 to be accessed with a shared driveway.

656
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,960
 This is in the Denton Development Code, kind of shows how it would lay out, so instead

657
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:54,400
 of being kind of organized around that common open space, it's got the common driveway.

658
00:45:54,400 --> 00:46:00,360
 Anything, or in cluster subdivisions and auto courts, you'd still have to build streets

659
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:07,740
 with the minimum street widths, and then the maximum block length would be 600 feet.

660
00:46:07,740 --> 00:46:09,880
 That ends my presentation.

661
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,600
 If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them, or if I got it wrong and talked

662
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,160
 about something you did not want to hear about, please let me know and we'll come back.

663
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:25,720
 - Thank you very much, first of all, that's an amazing amount of information.

664
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:33,920
 Couple of points that I just looked up, just to set our understanding of things, I know

665
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:40,120
 the Redmond, Washington example, those were I think 800,000, 860, something like that

666
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,080
 market rate, but it's a very different market there.

667
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:48,620
 I just looked up the median house price in Redmond, Washington is over $1.3 million,

668
00:46:48,620 --> 00:46:56,520
 so it's, there's context, right?

669
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:02,640
 I guess I will dive too deep if I let myself, so I'm going to pause and say, let's have

670
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:10,320
 some discussion, what are people's reactions, thoughts, questions, anyone?

671
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:11,320
 Commissioner Garland.

672
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,800
 - I just want to thank you for putting this together.

673
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:20,720
 I think it, like Chairman or Member Pruitt mentioned, it's a lot of information.

674
00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:24,600
 I think that that's something that we all kind of collectively welcome in our community

675
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,600
 is more diversity when it comes to our housing.

676
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:36,180
 I love the idea of tiny homes, making young adults, home ownership more affordable to

677
00:47:36,180 --> 00:47:39,840
 people that don't otherwise have access to it, and then also maybe the other side of

678
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,160
 life where seniors are ready to downsize, but they don't want to be in an apartment or assisted

679
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:45,240
 living.

680
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:53,000
 I think the one thing that all of these things kind of have in common is kind of collectively

681
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,120
 a sense of community and kind of bringing people together and sustainability and just

682
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:04,760
 kind of a close knit of, you know, it's like a little community, and so I think that probably

683
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:10,440
 resonates with a lot of people, and a lot of people would find more housing options

684
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,400
 ideal.

685
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:25,520
 - You gotta say something before I go in the weeds.

686
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:26,520
 Commissioner McDuff.

687
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,960
 - Do not go in the weeds.

688
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,760
 It's kind of scary, actually, but I love it when you do.

689
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:39,360
 I will say there's been considerable, I've had considerable input on this topic, and

690
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,240
 I'm very interested in it.

691
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:47,760
 Julie, I want to applaud you on your ability to put something like this together.

692
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:53,620
 This is a lot, and I appreciate all that, and I am personally ready for us to do something

693
00:48:53,620 --> 00:49:02,080
 like this, and so thus the number of questions and the layups from our prior discussion.

694
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:08,760
 I will say that it looks to me these are commercial that we've talked about, commercial type

695
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:16,600
 dwellings, but I do think we've had some interest in the other type of tiny houses

696
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:23,520
 where we have clusters in communal living, where we provide basic services to our homeless

697
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,760
 population, or just say our population's in need, how's that?

698
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:36,040
 I'm interested in that, too, and have been associated with some of this conversation

699
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:43,880
 when we started our Serve Denton movement again several years ago now, but I know that

700
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:51,920
 you're involved in this, Chair Pruitt, and the concept, and so I am personally interested

701
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:58,840
 in being able to study this, to hear more about it, to discuss it.

702
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,840
 Thank you.

703
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:10,880
 Okay, I warned you, I'll try to stay higher level, I promise.

704
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:18,440
 You mentioned that the current site design requirements for single family allow it to

705
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:26,880
 be -- allow the buildings to be oriented around a common green space, but there's also a street

706
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:32,320
 fundage requirement.

707
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,920
 Let's imagine we live in a world where there's a zoning district with no minimum lot size

708
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,360
 and no setbacks.

709
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:44,480
 With those two requirements, can you explain to me how one would develop that in Denton?

710
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,280
 That is a good question.

711
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:52,040
 I don't think we've had one pursue that, so I'm not really sure.

712
00:50:52,040 --> 00:51:01,920
 I don't know if Haley has any thoughts as to how that would be plotted.

713
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:09,360
 I think you've seen maybe something approximating that in the landmark and -- well, probably

714
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,200
 just in the landmark communities, because they do have some where the home's all front

715
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,880
 on like a shared green space lot, but then their street frontage and right-of-way frontage

716
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:23,080
 is achieved in the rear of the homes, so that is a possibility.

717
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:28,440
 Sorry, refresh my memory on what the landmark that you're referring to.

718
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,440
 Hunter Ranch.

719
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,600
 There are some blocks, if you look at the plats that you all have seen for phase one,

720
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:41,080
 where the home's front on a shared green space or like a little parklet, and they achieve

721
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,080
 that right-of-way frontage for each lot in the rear of the property.

722
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,320
 Instead of having an alley in the rear, they have a full street width in the --

723
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,880
 I believe they have alleys, but that is technically right-of-way.

724
00:51:52,880 --> 00:52:02,840
 Okay, so I will stop soon, but when we say must have street frontage and alley counts

725
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:03,840
 as street frontage?

726
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:04,840
 Yes.

727
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:05,840
 Okay.

728
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:06,840
 Thank you.

729
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,120
 It is technically a street type.

730
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,680
 No, that helps.

731
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:20,440
 My thoughts on this is, we've talked about this before, we've seen pictures before, Denton

732
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:26,040
 is creative, Denton is, you know, hey, let's try some stuff and see what happens.

733
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:34,720
 It's sort of the, you know, how we grew over the last hundred years.

734
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:41,400
 I don't think, and I'm pretty confident on this, that any of these are going to happen

735
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:46,200
 if we required a plan development district for them to move forward.

736
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:53,440
 Just because the -- especially, for instance, the cottage court kind of thing, right?

737
00:52:53,440 --> 00:53:03,960
 If you're dividing $300,000 of lawyers and landholding cost over eight units, you can't

738
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,200
 sell them anymore.

739
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:14,840
 I think if we want to see more of this in Denton, we have to start looking at modifying

740
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:23,400
 existing zoning districts like R7, R6, I don't know what it is, that may not be full four-story

741
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:30,080
 multifamily by right to allow these types of things by right, right?

742
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:34,960
 I'll just put out a few numbers there, right?

743
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:40,640
 We talked about the 400 square feet minimum for a dwelling unit when it's in a multifamily

744
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,960
 use.

745
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:51,360
 You know, obviously it varies, but let's just say, for instance, that it's new construction,

746
00:53:51,360 --> 00:54:02,280
 renting it around $2.50 per square foot per month, that comes out to $1,000 a month, which

747
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:09,440
 in order to be affordable by the 30 percent AMI affordability criteria requires a yearly

748
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:16,640
 income of $40,000, right, or roughly $20 an hour if it's hourly pay.

749
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:27,000
 And a large number of City of Denton employees make less than that, right?

750
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:35,880
 So I think when we look at the chasm between traditional single-family homes, setbacks,

751
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:49,720
 large lots, and stuff that everybody's scared about, we have systematically laid up a foundation

752
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:56,960
 of this is how things should happen that have removed the ability to build any of this economically.

753
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:57,960
 Right?

754
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:58,960
 Technically, could you do it?

755
00:54:58,960 --> 00:54:59,960
 Sure.

756
00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:05,840
 But you have to spend more building it than you would a single-family home, right?

757
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:11,700
 Anyway, so I'm very interested in everything from the how do we allow -- I think you had

758
00:55:11,700 --> 00:55:19,600
 a definition in there of the tiny shelters, was that it?

759
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:25,360
 You know, some of this communal living in areas for transitional housing and that sort

760
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:32,680
 of thing where maybe common eating and bathroom facilities are provided, just like, look,

761
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,600
 if we don't want people to be on the street, we've got to figure out how to build housing

762
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,240
 that people who are not earning very much money can afford to pay for.

763
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:44,020
 It's really not -- it's math, right?

764
00:55:44,020 --> 00:55:50,540
 But then it also goes up, as you said, to a lot of the Denton ethos of, hey, I want

765
00:55:50,540 --> 00:55:58,480
 to have a garden that all my neighbors help tend and do all this stuff, and the way I

766
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,440
 see it, I just -- I would love for more of that to happen.

767
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,480
 I don't think any of it's going to happen until we are comfortable modifying our zoning

768
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:11,160
 districts to say, hey, if you want to go build this, here's the requirements, here's how

769
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:20,880
 you should do it, go for it, right, instead of having to design a custom PD.

770
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:22,120
 But thank you very much.

771
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:23,120
 I'm done.

772
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:24,120
 Commissioner McDade?

773
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:33,320
 >> I just want to clarify, I think you may have said it, but would a city of Denton fire

774
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:38,320
 truck fit down an alleyway if that's the setback?

775
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:45,320
 >> Yes, so I don't know if a city of Denton fire truck -- they would -- they could.

776
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,480
 A fire truck has to have 20 feet, and so it would fit.

777
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:55,840
 The alleys are intended or required to be designed to accommodate not only fire trucks

778
00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:04,440
 but also solid-waste trucks, so -- >> Commissioner Dyer?

779
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,360
 >> First off, thank you so much, I mean, this was a lot of information, and I'm sure it

780
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,720
 took a lot of time to put together, so thank you.

781
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:19,120
 Kind of piggybacking on Chair Pruitt talking about the need for a different -- you know,

782
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:24,600
 for housing for different communities in our area.

783
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:34,980
 What is the city's stance or requirements, you know, a lot about strip malls or shopping

784
00:57:34,980 --> 00:57:43,680
 centers that are no longer being utilized, some of those getting converted to housing

785
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:49,360
 that might fit in some of these, you know, requirements, like how does that all fit in

786
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:57,360
 there where you're meeting the needs of fair housing, trying to recycle a building, and

787
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,740
 also meet the needs of the requirements that the city has?

788
00:58:01,740 --> 00:58:05,640
 >> I am looking at Haley.

789
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,560
 I don't know.

790
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:12,360
 >> I mean, you hear about, like, you know, shopping malls that are abandoned that are

791
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:16,240
 becoming like retirement communities because they're a perfect place to put apartments

792
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:17,240
 inside of them.

793
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,840
 >> Sure, I would say -- >> Old hotels.

794
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,600
 >> Most of our districts that I can think of that would permit something like a strip

795
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:27,560
 center or the mall would permit multifamily.

796
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,720
 Some may require a specific use permit for it, but it would -- based on the way those

797
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,240
 facilities are typically platted, it would fall under our multifamily definition if someone

798
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:37,160
 wanted to do that.

799
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:41,200
 They would have to, of course, meet all building and fire code requirements, so that may be

800
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:45,840
 the cost prohibitive piece there, you know, to install, like, fire sprinkling and things

801
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:47,560
 like that within those buildings.

802
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:52,400
 But from a zoning perspective, I would imagine the majority of those districts would permit

803
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,720
 both the commercial use that was previously there and multifamily.

804
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:00,920
 >> Commissioner Garland?

805
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:08,160
 >> To me, the holdup is typically whoever owns the property or the land wants to turn

806
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:09,700
 the highest profit.

807
00:59:09,700 --> 00:59:18,040
 And whatever the highest profit, if that's apartments, $2,000 multiunit apartments, if

808
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:22,800
 they can sell it for that much, or are we ever going to have, like, somebody that has

809
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:28,080
 the motivation to go, I have this land, this is what I would like to do with it.

810
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:34,200
 You know, that's where the disconnect is, is who owns what and what is their intention.

811
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,200
 Is it max profit?

812
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:41,640
 Absolutely, and I think that's why we can never find, bridge that gap of what we need,

813
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:45,760
 what our community needs, and what we keep getting.

814
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:55,280
 And that's just kind of on a side note there, so.

815
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,200
 >> Commissioner MacDuff?

816
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:58,960
 >> What is the action step here?

817
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:00,960
 >> That's a good question.

818
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:01,960
 Staff?

819
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:06,520
 What are your thoughts?

820
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,720
 >> So no direction is needed.

821
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:12,800
 This was purely an informative work session based on a previous matrix request.

822
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,600
 I would say if the commission's interested, you know, we could discuss something later

823
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:21,960
 in our matrix section about if there are additional items you want brought back at a future date,

824
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,840
 or alternatively, several members of this body are on the development code review committee,

825
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,560
 so this is a topic that could be brought up there as well.

826
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,400
 If there were any of the things that you heard this evening that you would like that body

827
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:39,320
 to consider code amendments for.

828
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:40,320
 >> Very good.

829
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:41,320
 All right.

830
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:42,320
 >> All right.

831
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,400
 >> I said I was done, so I'm going to be done.

832
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,400
 But thank you very much for --

833
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:47,400
 >> You bet.

834
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:48,400
 >> Yes.

835
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,220
 As well as any other staff that helped.

836
01:00:51,220 --> 01:00:52,560
 It's a lot to wrap your head around.

837
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,040
 >> It was a group effort.

838
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,280
 >> Thank you.

839
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:02,680
 That brings us to our second work session report.

840
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:07,120
 Receive a report, hold a discussion, give staff direction on the Southeast Denton Zoning

841
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:08,120
 Overlay Districts.

842
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:17,640
 Yeah, I'm going to say let's take a five-minute break and grab some food so that we don't

843
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:21,440
 get squished up against the 630 regular session.

844
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,440
 So at 603, we will take a five-minute recess.

845
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:25,240
 Thank you.

846
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:34,040
 >> Our recess.

847
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:43,760
 Welcome up PZ25-194 work session on the Southeast Denton Plan Zoning Overlay Districts, et cetera.

848
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:45,920
 >> Hi, Julie Wyatt.

849
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:51,280
 I'm going to start the presentation and then I'm going to turn it over to Mia because we're

850
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,120
 both kind of working on these overlay districts.

851
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:56,560
 So we'll get started.

852
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:02,640
 We're going to talk briefly about the Southeast Denton Area Plan and then some public engagement

853
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:04,880
 and results of the overlay districts.

854
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:11,840
 As some of you recall, Mia and I both presented information related to the overlay districts.

855
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:15,040
 Mia was in May and I think I presented in June.

856
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:19,840
 So just a quick recap and then to let you know what public engagement, what we've heard

857
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:21,000
 so far.

858
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,000
 And then any discussion?

859
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:25,160
 And I promise I'll try to talk fast.

860
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:32,280
 Okay, so the Southeast Denton Area Plan was adopted in July of 2023.

861
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:38,480
 It was the effort over 18 months, partnering with the community over 40 public engagement

862
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,040
 events.

863
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:44,080
 So it was a pretty intensive process with the Southeast Denton community.

864
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:51,320
 As part of the plan, the community developed a vision for how Southeast Denton should look

865
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,680
 and feel in 10 to 20 years.

866
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,920
 And in order to achieve that vision, came up with some goals.

867
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,000
 We're not going to talk about all of them today.

868
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:04,720
 Really we're just touching on honor the culture and heritage, invest in economic prosperity

869
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,780
 and also strengthen neighborhoods and affordability.

870
01:03:07,780 --> 01:03:13,640
 Also as part of the plan, there were 53 action items to help the community and the city achieve

871
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,320
 those goals.

872
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:19,960
 Today we're really touching on three of those and that is a residential overlay district,

873
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:25,300
 a height overlay district, and then a live work overlay district.

874
01:03:25,300 --> 01:03:32,880
 Since we spoke in June, we have done some public engagement related to these overlay

875
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:33,880
 districts.

876
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,640
 At this point, we've only heard from 14 respondents.

877
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:41,080
 So we're going to talk about that later in the presentation.

878
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,240
 We had a block party at Fred Moore Park.

879
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:47,480
 That was actually before we talked to the group here.

880
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:49,640
 And we advertise that with door hangers.

881
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:51,840
 We had over 100 people attend.

882
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,560
 It was a really big success.

883
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:59,240
 After we spoke about the overlay districts, we went to Juneteenth, had a pop-up there.

884
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:03,500
 We also presented the information to the June CEDNA meeting.

885
01:04:03,500 --> 01:04:09,880
 We talk every month at the CEDNA meetings and then talked with them additionally at subsequent

886
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:11,000
 ones.

887
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,220
 We've also had three community workshops.

888
01:04:14,220 --> 01:04:19,160
 Because of the rousing success with the block party and the door hangers, we decided, well,

889
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:20,160
 that's the secret sauce.

890
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:25,000
 So we put door hangers on each resident in Southeast Denton.

891
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,560
 We wanted to make sure we touched every person who lived in Southeast Denton.

892
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:38,520
 Then we had an in-person meeting on Saturday, September 27th, a pop-up on October 2nd at

893
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:43,200
 American Legion, and then we had a virtual meeting on October 3rd.

894
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:49,000
 Upcoming, we had a survey with our community workshops.

895
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:54,360
 We're going to launch that on Discuss Denton so that people can take the survey from the

896
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,960
 comfort of their own home whenever they want to.

897
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,920
 We don't have the beginning and end dates for that yet, but it'll be up for a little

898
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,560
 bit so that the community members can weigh in.

899
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:10,900
 Then also a property owner meeting for residential overlay and height overlay districts in particular.

900
01:05:10,900 --> 01:05:15,000
 We understand that while there are a lot of residents in Southeast Denton, there are also

901
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:20,680
 properties where there isn't maybe a house on it or there's a different property owner.

902
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:24,400
 We want to make sure we touch everybody, and so we'll also have a separate meeting for

903
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,320
 that group as well.

904
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:32,160
 As we talked about earlier, overlay districts are a balancing act.

905
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:36,840
 We want to make sure that those regulations are restrictive enough that we can work with

906
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:40,200
 the community to achieve the vision that they have.

907
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:42,040
 We don't want to make them too restrictive.

908
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:45,760
 That would deter people from investing in the community.

909
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,280
 We want to make sure, are they clear?

910
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:53,440
 Do they actually achieve what the plan says they want to achieve?

911
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,560
 With that, we have three proposed overlay districts.

912
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,720
 The height limitation, that's that area in blue.

913
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:06,260
 It is that transition area between the DCTA station and really those historic neighborhoods

914
01:06:06,260 --> 01:06:08,280
 in Southeast Denton.

915
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,160
 A live work overlay, that's what Mia's going to be talking about.

916
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:13,440
 She's done a lot of work related to that.

917
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:17,440
 Then the residential overlay district, that's that area in yellow.

918
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,120
 This really captures those single-family neighborhoods in Southeast Denton.

919
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:24,560
 We're going to talk about the residential overlay first.

920
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:28,800
 That action item is to create a residential overlay district to maintain the scale and

921
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,880
 character of the neighborhoods while fostering community investment.

922
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:37,760
 We heard from the community over and over that they wanted to retain the scale, the

923
01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:40,480
 look, the feel of their community.

924
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:46,760
 That is really hoping to achieve that desire.

925
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:51,440
 When we're talking about it, keep in mind, this is as proposed for new construction and

926
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,600
 substantial expansions to homes.

927
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:55,720
 We're going to talk about that.

928
01:06:55,720 --> 01:07:01,400
 It really is related to three proposed overlay topics, not focused on use.

929
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:06,600
 It is really design-related, home size, front setback, and building architecture.

930
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:11,200
 Once again, residential district, and here we go.

931
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:18,160
 As part of formulating the draft regulations, staff first started with going out to the

932
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,160
 community and see, "What is the character of the homes in Southeast Denton?

933
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:23,160
 What are the architectural styles?

934
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:24,160
 What are the scale?

935
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:26,080
 Where are the garages?

936
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:27,080
 How do they look?

937
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:29,800
 What are the front entries like?"

938
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:33,160
 Really we came up with some consistent themes.

939
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:37,400
 There are a lot of craftsmen and bungalow and vernacular architecture homes in Southeast

940
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:38,400
 Denton.

941
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:40,360
 There's also a lot of ranch style homes.

942
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:46,720
 Those architectural elements that we're proposing are consistent with those architectural styles.

943
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:55,200
 Things like dormer windows, bay windows, front porches or stoops, oversized windows with

944
01:07:55,200 --> 01:08:02,360
 substantial trim, and gable roofs or also hipped roofs.

945
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:06,840
 We don't typically see recessed entries in Southeast Denton.

946
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:11,840
 We don't typically see maybe some of those more modern roof styles like shed roofs or

947
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:14,640
 flat roofs or maybe mansard roofs.

948
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:16,840
 That was the basis.

949
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:18,560
 We talked to the community in March.

950
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:24,240
 We heard from them, "Yes, we want to maintain the one-story and two-story.

951
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:28,440
 We prefer not to have three-story homes in Southeast Denton."

952
01:08:28,440 --> 01:08:35,040
 We also talked to them about where the houses should be placed on the lot.

953
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:39,520
 Sixty-three percent of the community felt that houses could be located a little closer

954
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:46,520
 to the street, and then also talking about parking for ADUs, 63% said no additional parking

955
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:48,520
 for ADUs.

956
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:54,960
 We also talked to them about those design standards, additional bigger windows, front

957
01:08:54,960 --> 01:09:00,160
 porches and stoops, maintaining that existing roof style, the hipped roof and the gable

958
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,160
 roofs, and then also where garages are.

959
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:07,120
 The community felt like front-facing garages as well as detached garages were appropriate

960
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:09,540
 in Southeast Denton.

961
01:09:09,540 --> 01:09:11,920
 With that, I won't go in depth on this.

962
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,200
 We're going to talk about it briefly.

963
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:20,680
 We are proposing, as part of the overlay district, is to reduce that front yard setback for lots

964
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:25,240
 that are less than 7,000 square feet.

965
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:27,040
 Typically the front yard setback is 20 feet.

966
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:28,360
 We're proposing 10 feet.

967
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:29,520
 It was kind of mixed.

968
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:34,480
 I think it was mixed with this body as well, a little concern about that front yard setback.

969
01:09:34,480 --> 01:09:36,800
 And I'd say the community reflected that.

970
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,920
 Five agreed, two disagreed.

971
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:45,120
 Max building height, I'd say there was overwhelming agreement, and to limit the building heights

972
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:51,320
 for the primary structure to 30 feet, and then the accessory structure to 20 feet.

973
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:57,640
 In terms of entry feature, the overlay as proposed would require a front porch or a

974
01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:58,640
 stoop.

975
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,720
 The community agreed with that proposal.

976
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:07,600
 And we're also proposing, as part of the overlay, to require larger windows and doors

977
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,600
 on the front facade than what we would typically require in single-family neighborhoods in

978
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:17,320
 Denton, as well as prescribing the width of the trim, making sure it's real visible

979
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,360
 from the street, consistent with that craftsman style.

980
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:25,360
 The community agreed with that, six to one.

981
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:26,360
 Roof form.

982
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:31,960
 All of those who responded agreed to limit the roof form to the hip and the gabled.

983
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:36,680
 And then in terms of the additional architectural features, we're proposing, remember those

984
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:46,440
 two architectural features in that green box, five respondents agreed, zero disagreed.

985
01:10:46,440 --> 01:10:48,200
 There was one question about affordability.

986
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:52,720
 I thought we'd go a little bit deeper on this, just very quickly.

987
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:56,600
 We looked at both new construction and then existing expansions.

988
01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:03,180
 So new construction, we just looked at kind of volume builders, what their quick move-in

989
01:11:03,180 --> 01:11:08,360
 homes are, and then what the average or what the average price per square foot is if you

990
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,520
 have a large porch, a small porch, or no porch.

991
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:13,940
 And really, it was pretty consistent.

992
01:11:13,940 --> 01:11:23,240
 It went anywhere from average of $187 per square foot to $192 per square foot, so in

993
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:24,240
 the same range.

994
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:28,240
 I think where it was a little different is when you're talking about adding a porch to

995
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,040
 an existing home.

996
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:34,100
 But that, because you have to tie into the roof, you have to get an engineered foundation,

997
01:11:34,100 --> 01:11:43,800
 you have to do all the engineered framing, it does run between $8,000 and $25,000 ballpark.

998
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:48,960
 And then there are also some homes being constructed in Southeast Dent right now.

999
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:56,520
 We compared these regulations to those homes being built, and the majority of them have

1000
01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:02,520
 those larger porches with the decorative columns in their designs.

1001
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:09,520
 When we talk about applicability, we proposed required on all new construction, only requiring

1002
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:17,040
 the maximum height and roof forms for expansions less than 50% of the existing square footage,

1003
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:22,260
 requiring all of the regulations on expansions greater than 50%, and then not requiring it

1004
01:12:22,260 --> 01:12:23,260
 for maintenance.

1005
01:12:23,260 --> 01:12:29,280
 So you maintain your home without having to adhere to any of the regulations.

1006
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:31,280
 So with that, I just have some questions.

1007
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:32,280
 Feel free to give me some feedback.

1008
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,360
 Once again, this is just a feedback.

1009
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:40,080
 It's not intended to, it's not a public hearing, so we're just kind of talking about it and

1010
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:44,320
 wanting to hear what your thoughts are and concerns.

1011
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:48,320
 So any other additional ideas to engage the public?

1012
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:53,880
 We want to make sure property owners and residents understand that these would be additional

1013
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:58,520
 regulations than what you would typically have in another single-family neighborhood

1014
01:12:58,520 --> 01:12:59,880
 in the city of Denton.

1015
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:04,680
 So we want to make sure that while we know the community is very keen on keeping that

1016
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:10,880
 character, we just want everybody to be aware.

1017
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:15,080
 We heard the community responses are mixed on that front yard setback.

1018
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:21,340
 Do you think it should go forward at this time, or maybe wait on that proposal?

1019
01:13:21,340 --> 01:13:27,120
 And then regarding the front porch or stoop, do you think it's an important design feature?

1020
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:33,800
 If so, given the potential cost, should there be some variability or some modifications

1021
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,300
 allowed with director approval for that front porch?

1022
01:13:37,300 --> 01:13:42,680
 For instance, maybe allowing a 10% reduction with director approval.

1023
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:48,420
 Then is the cost of a front porch or stoop too prohibitive in an expansion?

1024
01:13:48,420 --> 01:13:50,240
 So I don't know if we want to talk now or at the end.

1025
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:57,080
 I know Mia has slides, too, so I don't know how we want to approach this.

1026
01:13:57,080 --> 01:14:03,920
 We don't have a lot of time left, and I don't want to rush the discussion.

1027
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:12,560
 We do have an ability on our agenda to postpone the rest of this until after the culmination

1028
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,920
 of the regular session, so I just want to take the temperature of the commission.

1029
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:21,760
 Would it be okay if we did that, just to give everybody a chance to get to the bathroom,

1030
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:27,400
 and then maybe after the end of the regular session, we could come back to this?

1031
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:28,400
 Where are your feelings?

1032
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:31,400
 I like that idea.

1033
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:32,400
 Okay.

1034
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:33,400
 Is now a good pausing moment?

1035
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:34,400
 It's a great pausing point.

1036
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:35,400
 Okay, thank you so much.

1037
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:36,400
 You bet.

1038
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:43,440
 With that, we will recess for five minutes, come back at 630 in council chambers for the

1039
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:44,440
 regular meeting.

1040
01:14:44,440 --> 01:14:47,440
 Thank you.

1041
01:14:47,440 --> 01:14:54,160
 PM with the quorum present and will call us to order for the City of Denton Planning and

1042
01:14:54,160 --> 01:15:01,640
 Zoning Commission meeting on Wednesday, October 8th, 632 PM.

1043
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:06,320
 Our first order of business is to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S.

1044
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:07,320
 and Texas flag.

1045
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:08,320
 I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for

1046
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:09,320
 which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

1047
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:10,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1048
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:11,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas one state, under God, one indivisible.

1049
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:12,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1050
01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:13,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas one state, under God, one indivisible.

1051
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:14,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1052
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:15,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1053
01:15:15,320 --> 01:15:16,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1054
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:17,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1055
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:18,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1056
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:19,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1057
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:20,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1058
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:21,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1059
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:22,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1060
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:23,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1061
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:24,320
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag.

1062
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:42,560
 I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag, under God, one indivisible.

1063
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:50,800
 That brings us to item 2A, PZ25188, consider approval of the September 24th planning and

1064
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:52,440
 zoning meeting minutes.

1065
01:15:52,440 --> 01:15:57,200
 Any discussion or a motion from the commission?

1066
01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:58,200
 Commissioner Riggs?

1067
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:01,880
 I make a motion to approve.

1068
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,600
 Thank you.

1069
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:06,560
 And Commissioner MacDuff?

1070
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:12,560
 I second that motion to approve the minutes.

1071
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:22,020
 Seeing no discussion, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1072
01:16:22,020 --> 01:16:34,080
 That item passes 6-0, brings us to item 3A, FP25-0026, our singles consent agenda item

1073
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:35,880
 for this evening.

1074
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:43,280
 Any discussion or a motion from the commission?

1075
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:44,280
 Commissioner Riggs?

1076
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,560
 I make a motion to approve.

1077
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:48,000
 And Commissioner MacDuff?

1078
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:54,600
 I'd like to second that motion to approve a request by Robson, Denton Development for

1079
01:16:54,600 --> 01:17:02,120
 a final plan of the Robson Ranch Unit 30.

1080
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:07,440
 Seeing no discussion, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1081
01:17:07,440 --> 01:17:12,080
 Oh, sorry.

1082
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:17,720
 I apologize to the commissioners, but I don't know that I can vote on this because I live

1083
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:18,720
 there.

1084
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:23,720
 Am I right?

1085
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:28,160
 So the decision to recuse is a personal one and I can't advise you on that, but generally

1086
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:34,920
 speaking in the past, commissioners who live where a property is located, a project area,

1087
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:35,920
 they don't vote on the item.

1088
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:36,920
 Okay.

1089
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:42,900
 So I apologize that I didn't catch that when we were in the other meeting.

1090
01:17:42,900 --> 01:17:43,900
 It's not fatal.

1091
01:17:43,900 --> 01:17:47,400
 This is a consent agenda, so we're not having a presentation.

1092
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:55,440
 So my suggestion is to not vote and then get with Kathy afterwards for a recusal form.

1093
01:17:55,440 --> 01:17:56,440
 Okay.

1094
01:17:56,440 --> 01:17:59,960
 Good timing, though.

1095
01:17:59,960 --> 01:18:01,280
 Okay.

1096
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:04,120
 Thank you.

1097
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:18,080
 Seeing no discussion, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1098
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:26,000
 And that item passes five zero with one recusal.

1099
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,200
 Sorry.

1100
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:41,820
 That moves us to item 4A, our item for individual consideration, item FR25-0020.

1101
01:18:41,820 --> 01:18:42,820
 Excuse me.

1102
01:18:42,820 --> 01:18:43,820
 Yes.

1103
01:18:43,820 --> 01:18:44,820
 Excuse me, chair.

1104
01:18:44,820 --> 01:18:45,820
 Yes.

1105
01:18:45,820 --> 01:18:47,560
 I would like to recuse myself from this item.

1106
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:48,560
 Very good.

1107
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:52,800
 Commissioner MacDuff, there's an area right back to your right there.

1108
01:18:52,800 --> 01:19:03,440
 Thank you.

1109
01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:04,440
 Good evening.

1110
01:19:04,440 --> 01:19:05,440
 I'm Julie Wyatt.

1111
01:19:05,440 --> 01:19:08,480
 I'm presenting FR25-0020.

1112
01:19:08,480 --> 01:19:13,640
 This is a replat of a four-plex subdivision.

1113
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:15,800
 They do have some items that they do need to work through.

1114
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:19,660
 The property is located just west of Loop 288.

1115
01:19:19,660 --> 01:19:24,320
 It was previously platted, but they have changed some of their designs, so they are making

1116
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:29,180
 some changes to the lot lines and some of the design.

1117
01:19:29,180 --> 01:19:32,600
 We do recommend denial because they have some items they need to address.

1118
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:37,600
 However, we have no objection to their request for an extension to October 22nd.

1119
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:44,160
 I'll be happy to answer any questions.

1120
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:46,520
 Any questions from the commission?

1121
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:51,700
 I have one just because I'm curious, and I think it's an educational opportunity.

1122
01:19:51,700 --> 01:19:58,000
 The agenda information sheet mentions that this was due to alleys were needed in order

1123
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:02,600
 to meet the design considerations.

1124
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:09,160
 Am I reading too much into that to say that they're opting to build three-plexes or four-plexes

1125
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:12,900
 in the form of what we would typically think of a townhome?

1126
01:20:12,900 --> 01:20:13,900
 And that's why?

1127
01:20:13,900 --> 01:20:14,900
 You are correct.

1128
01:20:14,900 --> 01:20:15,900
 Yes.

1129
01:20:15,900 --> 01:20:22,560
 I do think that that's a known way to make these three-plexes and four-plexes not as expensive

1130
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:28,300
 to build because once you move into a triplex, you have to abide by the International Building

1131
01:20:28,300 --> 01:20:34,420
 Code book as opposed to the International Residential Code, which requires seven plus

1132
01:20:34,420 --> 01:20:42,400
 architectural and engineering stamps and that sort of thing.

1133
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:46,600
 The more you know with the rainbow and everything.

1134
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:57,440
 Any discussion or motion from the commission or questions?

1135
01:20:57,440 --> 01:20:58,440
 Commissioner MacDuff?

1136
01:20:58,440 --> 01:21:00,560
 So can I actually ... Oh, I'm sorry.

1137
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:02,280
 One question from Commissioner Riggs.

1138
01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:03,280
 No.

1139
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:04,520
 So we're going to have another recusal.

1140
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:07,720
 I have to recuse myself from this one too.

1141
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:12,680
 Very good.

1142
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:14,640
 Yes.

1143
01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:17,680
 They're dropping like flies.

1144
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:23,160
 Thank you for everybody else being here tonight.

1145
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:24,160
 Commissioner MacDuff?

1146
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:27,520
 Well, I'm not going to recuse myself.

1147
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:33,840
 So I'll make the motion for approval by the request by ECM Eden Village LP for approval

1148
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:37,280
 of a replant of the Eden Village edition.

1149
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:45,840
 And this would include a 30-day extension to a date certain of October 22nd, 2025.

1150
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:47,520
 And Commissioner Garland?

1151
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:49,680
 And I will second that.

1152
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:51,160
 Very good.

1153
01:21:51,160 --> 01:22:02,560
 Seeing no more discussion, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1154
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:12,960
 And that item passes 4-0 with two recusals.

1155
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:18,320
 Commissioner MacDuff, would you mind tapping on the door to invite our other commissioners

1156
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:21,320
 or secretary?

1157
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:29,040
 Yes, thank you.

1158
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:34,640
 Thank you.

1159
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:43,180
 That brings us to our public hearing this evening, item 5A, Z25-0013.

1160
01:22:43,180 --> 01:22:58,680
 Evening, Chair, members of the commission, Mia Hines, senior planner.

1161
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:05,320
 This item, as stated in the caption, is a rezoning request for just under an acre, currently

1162
01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:12,920
 zone R4 and 5.75 acres zone RR to go to the mixed-use neighborhood MN district.

1163
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:18,280
 The property is located south of East McKinney Street, approximately 600 feet west of Glengarry

1164
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:26,360
 Way and just directly west adjacent to the McDonald Highlands subdivision.

1165
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:32,280
 The applicant's stated purpose for this requested zoning is to have consistent MN zoning in preparation

1166
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:34,240
 for resale.

1167
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:40,920
 They have received some interest that they believe the MN zoning would help with that

1168
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:42,360
 property.

1169
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:44,600
 So here is the current zoning map to the left.

1170
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:50,840
 Again, that northernmost tract is zone R4, which typically requires that minimum 7,000-square

1171
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:52,520
 foot lot.

1172
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:59,760
 The southern R track is RR, which is typically a minimum five-acre lot, so very different

1173
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:04,480
 in dimension standards and zoning district standards there, but primarily the uses that

1174
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:09,720
 would be located on those lots are single-family residential.

1175
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:16,080
 Compared to that, the requested zoning district, MN, is primarily pedestrian-oriented in design

1176
01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:19,000
 and development regulation standards.

1177
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:27,440
 There is a maximum 15-foot front yard setback that requires that certain portion of the

1178
01:24:27,440 --> 01:24:32,720
 building be pushed up to the front and, again, really oriented towards that pedestrian scale.

1179
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:36,560
 There is a max building height of 65 feet, but as I'll discuss throughout the presentation,

1180
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:42,620
 there are some transitions that could help sort of mitigate any negative impacts or adverse

1181
01:24:42,620 --> 01:24:47,080
 impacts to the property to the east.

1182
01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:51,400
 So an overall overview, of course, we did, once we got this request, put it up against

1183
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:55,320
 our criteria for approval, and we do find that it does meet the criteria.

1184
01:24:55,320 --> 01:25:02,040
 I'll go through in detail a little bit in my next couple of slides on that piece, but

1185
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:06,280
 here I just wanted to mention that it is consistent with the future land use map designation of

1186
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:08,160
 modern residential.

1187
01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:14,600
 The proposal is generally consistent with the purpose statement for the MN zoning district.

1188
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:21,480
 The property or the request does allow for the existing use of single-family residential

1189
01:25:21,480 --> 01:25:26,520
 on the property to continue, and development plans would be required and must comply with

1190
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:33,040
 the DDC or other criteria should this property or the MN zoning district be approved.

1191
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:38,240
 And then finally, zoning is not expected to generate significant adverse environmental

1192
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:42,920
 infrastructure or fiscal impacts.

1193
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:48,720
 So as far as its consistency with the MN purpose statement, in our DDC, the MN is intended

1194
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:54,000
 to support compatibility between higher-intensity mixed-use areas and adjacent residential and

1195
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:58,560
 commercial areas, and that's exactly what we have here.

1196
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:04,640
 The property directly to the west of it has not developed yet, but it is planned for -- it's

1197
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:08,080
 a part of a PD, and it's sort of planned for transitional housing.

1198
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:11,200
 Essentially, from our point of view, it's multifamily.

1199
01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:17,100
 There are quite a few different structures that are permitted on there to support residences

1200
01:26:17,100 --> 01:26:23,920
 as well as programs intended to support those residences.

1201
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:29,400
 So the intended audience or the intended market for that development would be those in need

1202
01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:33,600
 of transitional housing, and then there would be some buildings and offices and things and

1203
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:38,000
 programs that would sort of help them within their transitioning state.

1204
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:39,720
 And that's on the property to the west.

1205
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:46,440
 The property to the east, conversely, is a single-family residential subdivision with

1206
01:26:46,440 --> 01:26:50,580
 a density of approximately six units per acre.

1207
01:26:50,580 --> 01:26:55,720
 As far as the roadway, of course, East McKinney Street is located just to the north.

1208
01:26:55,720 --> 01:27:02,040
 It is a primary arterial with recently improved pedestrian facilities, and I'll go into that

1209
01:27:02,040 --> 01:27:04,040
 a little bit here in a second.

1210
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:09,760
 And then development standards would require compatibility transitions and buffers if this

1211
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:15,960
 property were zoned MN as opposed to any other sort of residential district between them,

1212
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:18,080
 these two properties.

1213
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:25,280
 So I brought up this table a little bit in the work session to talk the comparison or

1214
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:30,300
 to give you a comparison between what is currently permitted on those properties, what could

1215
01:27:30,300 --> 01:27:36,000
 be permitted with maybe a more intense residential district, and then what would be permitted

1216
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:40,720
 under the MN zoning district.

1217
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,600
 For the most part, the dimensions are significantly different.

1218
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:48,840
 You're looking at a maximum 2,500 square foot lot size compared to the five-acre lot size

1219
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:50,320
 minimum there.

1220
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:55,420
 But again, existing zoning is not in line with our future land use map of moderate residential.

1221
01:27:55,420 --> 01:27:59,680
 So really, when we're looking at differences, we're looking at how the property can be built

1222
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:01,300
 and developed.

1223
01:28:01,300 --> 01:28:06,000
 The MN district does impose that maximum 65-foot building height and requires a specific use

1224
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:10,240
 permit for anything over 40 because it is adjacent to that single-family residential

1225
01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:11,240
 district.

1226
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:18,680
 A wider range of land uses could be permitted in the MN, ultimately helping us achieve some

1227
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:23,440
 of the goals of the neighborhood scale commercial services and other things that are intended

1228
01:28:23,440 --> 01:28:29,720
 to support residential development in those moderate land use designations.

1229
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:33,640
 As far as compatibility requirements, you'd be looking at the same generally across the

1230
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:38,280
 board because that's more based on the land use, and we would look at that once the land

1231
01:28:38,280 --> 01:28:39,280
 use came in.

1232
01:28:39,280 --> 01:28:44,720
 And then, like I said before, permitted uses, whereas the current zoning districts and residential

1233
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:50,280
 zoning districts would primarily permit residential and community facilities, that mixed-use zoning

1234
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:56,040
 does permit more commercial opportunities as well as the more dense residential development

1235
01:28:56,040 --> 01:28:59,840
 such as multifamily.

1236
01:28:59,840 --> 01:29:04,560
 I wanted to show you this slide as we talked a little bit about the buffers and transitions

1237
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:06,440
 that are applicable to MN.

1238
01:29:06,440 --> 01:29:10,360
 If you could reorient yourself, because I want to blow this up as much as possible,

1239
01:29:10,360 --> 01:29:16,720
 north is to the left of the screen, and so this area here is East McKinney Street.

1240
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:25,240
 What would be required with MN zoning or with a new development in general is that 10-foot

1241
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:30,080
 to 15-foot landscape buffer here, so you're looking at at least this area that cannot

1242
01:29:30,080 --> 01:29:37,160
 contain anything but landscaping and possibly utilities, and then you have a maximum building

1243
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:43,660
 height of 40 feet up to at least this orange line here, and then a maximum 55-foot building

1244
01:29:43,660 --> 01:29:45,520
 height at least up to this yellow line.

1245
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:52,200
 Beyond that, they could go above 55 feet, but it would still require a specific use

1246
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:53,200
 permit.

1247
01:29:53,200 --> 01:30:00,880
 So we're really looking at a max 40-foot blank here in general, and then a specific

1248
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:05,520
 use permit would be required, and within the request of a specific use permit, they still

1249
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:13,160
 have to meet the maximum 40 and maximum 55-foot within those distances.

1250
01:30:13,160 --> 01:30:17,800
 I did do a rough calculation and pulled up the property dimensions for this, and the

1251
01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:23,260
 property width total, I think that was a question, is approximately 215 feet, so that gives you

1252
01:30:23,260 --> 01:30:28,840
 an idea of scale and the permissible developments that could occur on this property.

1253
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:33,500
 With regard, I talked a little bit about this so far, but regard to our comprehensive plan,

1254
01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:37,520
 that moderate residential land use is what we have on this site, and that MN district

1255
01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:40,840
 does conform to that land use.

1256
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:44,680
 This zoning change would help us achieve a couple of our other goals, specifically the

1257
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:48,480
 goal of growing with character and supporting desired forms of development that improve

1258
01:30:48,480 --> 01:30:50,400
 standards for urban design.

1259
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:54,320
 As I discussed, that mixed-use neighborhood district really is intended to be more of

1260
01:30:54,320 --> 01:31:01,640
 an urban pedestrian-oriented district, similarly creating character, achieving that exemplary

1261
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:08,740
 urban design, and then finally, the goal of designing a fiscally advantageous land use

1262
01:31:08,740 --> 01:31:12,840
 pattern paired with fiscally responsible infrastructure management and investment.

1263
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:17,080
 I included that one in there because we just made improvements to East McKinney widening

1264
01:31:17,080 --> 01:31:23,240
 it and adding those pedestrian facilities, so if this property is to redevelop, it would

1265
01:31:23,240 --> 01:31:30,240
 make sense to be able to utilize that improved infrastructure, either from a commercial standpoint

1266
01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:37,580
 or from a residential standpoint that connects to those pedestrian paths and, again, makes

1267
01:31:37,580 --> 01:31:42,100
 use of those improvements.

1268
01:31:42,100 --> 01:31:43,100
 Here is a picture.

1269
01:31:43,100 --> 01:31:48,360
 I don't know if you can actually see it clearly on this blown up, but here's a comparison

1270
01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:53,800
 of East McKinney back in 2021 compared to 2025.

1271
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:59,080
 I believe 2021 is around the time that they began construction of that expansion.

1272
01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:07,200
 At one point, it was a two-lane, center-turned-lane divided, and currently, it is a four-lane.

1273
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:08,200
 That isn't correct.

1274
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:09,200
 Not six-lane.

1275
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:13,440
 Four-lane with the center-turned-lane divided, a 12-foot-wide sidewalk on the north side

1276
01:32:13,440 --> 01:32:18,440
 and a five-foot-wide sidewalk on the south side.

1277
01:32:18,440 --> 01:32:23,120
 As far as changes in the area, again, I've mentioned a little bit to the west, the property

1278
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:28,160
 that's entitled for that mix of uses and those transitional housing that hasn't developed

1279
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:34,440
 yet, but within the past just seven-year span, here's what we have.

1280
01:32:34,440 --> 01:32:38,280
 There have been significant changes in that area to the west.

1281
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:44,040
 On the other side of that transitional housing property is a multifamily development that

1282
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:48,680
 just occurred, and then to the west of that is a commercial development that just occurred.

1283
01:32:48,680 --> 01:32:54,480
 Additionally, Ryan High School, I believe that's Ryan High School, has expanded their campus.

1284
01:32:54,480 --> 01:32:58,680
 They've added some buildings and increased their capacity a little bit.

1285
01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:04,200
 Then similarly, the property to the further down east along McKinney is currently developing

1286
01:33:04,200 --> 01:33:06,640
 a manufactured home community.

1287
01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:09,840
 There has been an increase in rooftops in this area.

1288
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:13,760
 There's been an increase in residents, and there's also been an increase in commercial

1289
01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:20,160
 activity along with the infrastructure improvements that we've seen happening to East McKinney.

1290
01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:25,300
 There has been changes in the area that an in-men property could or opens up opportunity

1291
01:33:25,300 --> 01:33:30,920
 for a property zone in-men to either, again, contribute to that residential growth in this

1292
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:36,440
 area or actually provide neighborhood-scaled commercial services for these new residents

1293
01:33:36,440 --> 01:33:39,480
 that have been added to this area.

1294
01:33:39,480 --> 01:33:44,560
 With that, we did do public notification as per state law.

1295
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:48,900
 We have not received any letters in opposition.

1296
01:33:48,900 --> 01:33:50,160
 We have received one in favor.

1297
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:55,180
 It was the property owner, technically accounting for the property they own to the east.

1298
01:33:55,180 --> 01:33:58,280
 That is not a part of this subdivision.

1299
01:33:58,280 --> 01:34:05,240
 That will be updated as we go to city council, but that's the only response that we've seen

1300
01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:07,400
 of the notifications that we've sent out.

1301
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:12,420
 The applicant did inform me that they sent out letters to the neighboring community basically

1302
01:34:12,420 --> 01:34:17,080
 explaining what's in their project narrative, what their goals are and what their purpose

1303
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:23,680
 is for this rezoning, and asking the community if they had any questions being open to contact,

1304
01:34:23,680 --> 01:34:29,280
 and they had not received any inquiries or any questions, so they did not host a neighborhood

1305
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:33,080
 meeting from that point.

1306
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:36,680
 With that, staff is recommending approval of this zoning change request to mixed-use

1307
01:34:36,680 --> 01:34:39,540
 neighborhood as it does meet our criteria.

1308
01:34:39,540 --> 01:34:42,080
 That concludes my presentation.

1309
01:34:42,080 --> 01:34:47,560
 Following this, if this body is able to make a recommendation this evening, it is planned

1310
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:52,160
 for the November 18, 2025 city council meeting.

1311
01:34:52,160 --> 01:34:57,160
 That concludes my presentation, and the applicant is here to answer questions, if you all have

1312
01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:58,160
 any.

1313
01:34:58,160 --> 01:35:02,200
 They do not have a presentation, but if you have questions, they are happy to answer.

1314
01:35:02,200 --> 01:35:03,600
 Thank you, Mia.

1315
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:12,840
 I will open the public hearing at this time.

1316
01:35:12,840 --> 01:35:17,320
 In our public hearings, the applicant has an opportunity to go first, if they so wish,

1317
01:35:17,320 --> 01:35:24,080
 but you can defer if you want to, and then we will open up for the public to comment,

1318
01:35:24,080 --> 01:35:31,400
 so it's up to you whether you would like to speak at this time.

1319
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:32,960
 This is a public hearing.

1320
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:38,560
 I don't have any cards in front of me, but you can easily fill out a card after and come

1321
01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:41,960
 up and speak as you are ready.

1322
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:49,840
 Please come up to the mic, just for the record, we need your name and address, and then you'll

1323
01:35:49,840 --> 01:35:54,280
 have four minutes to speak.

1324
01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:57,720
 Betty Keeley, 5213 Gaelic Court.

1325
01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:02,440
 It's the first street as you pull into the subdivision there.

1326
01:36:02,440 --> 01:36:10,920
 We are in, I believe, the 500 zone, but we did not receive any other documentation on

1327
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:17,800
 what's intended to go in there other than the card that was recently sent out.

1328
01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:24,200
 Right now, to our subdivision, we've got a dollar general on the corner, which by the

1329
01:36:24,200 --> 01:36:34,720
 way has caused complete havoc for us and all of my neighbors along that backside with all

1330
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:39,960
 the stuff that goes on there, the lights, the noise, the traffic.

1331
01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:44,280
 There's no traffic signal coming out of our subdivision.

1332
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:51,720
 I've come to several of these meetings and requested somebody to look into putting in

1333
01:36:51,720 --> 01:36:58,320
 a traffic light there for mainly the kids, but now we've got more residents, all the

1334
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:04,680
 traffic from the dollar general, and now we're going to have something on the other side,

1335
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:10,720
 which that would dump out right where the kids go in, it's a crossing for the school

1336
01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:13,720
 there.

1337
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:20,680
 Again, I don't know if the detail of what is planned for that area went out to the 500

1338
01:37:20,680 --> 01:37:29,560
 foot, but we did not receive anything, and I'm opposed to the change.

1339
01:37:29,560 --> 01:37:36,900
 Just to give you a little understanding of how this confusing process works, the zoning

1340
01:37:36,900 --> 01:37:46,480
 on this parcel currently is in some designations that would allow single family homes, if one

1341
01:37:46,480 --> 01:37:51,640
 could develop that in this parcel, and would not allow much else.

1342
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:57,000
 The applicant is asking to change that zoning to a different zoning district that would

1343
01:37:57,000 --> 01:38:05,280
 have the uses that Mia presented, but there's no specific development plan at this time.

1344
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:11,580
 It's really just what we call a straight zoning case, so it's should these other uses be allowed

1345
01:38:11,580 --> 01:38:13,360
 within this area?

1346
01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:18,840
 Does that help clear that up on why you didn't get additional details about what would be

1347
01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:19,840
 developed?

1348
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:28,480
 She said something was sent out to the residents outlining what was going in there, and we

1349
01:38:28,480 --> 01:38:33,440
 didn't receive anything, at least that's what I heard.

1350
01:38:33,440 --> 01:38:39,600
 Maybe you can get with staff, but I think that postcard is what she was referring to,

1351
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:44,480
 so it will just state what the current zoning is and what the application is for a different

1352
01:38:44,480 --> 01:38:48,400
 zoning district.

1353
01:38:48,400 --> 01:38:53,160
 Is there anything else that staff needs to correct me, or change anything on?

1354
01:38:53,160 --> 01:38:54,160
 Okay.

1355
01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:55,160
 Any questions from the commission?

1356
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:56,960
 I don't see any.

1357
01:38:56,960 --> 01:38:57,960
 Thank you very much.

1358
01:38:57,960 --> 01:38:58,960
 Okay.

1359
01:38:58,960 --> 01:38:59,960
 Thank you.

1360
01:38:59,960 --> 01:39:06,640
 This is a public hearing, so if anyone else would like to speak, you're welcome to.

1361
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:13,680
 I'm representing my client.

1362
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:19,920
 The only reason that we want to do the rezoning is because the adjacent property, 5130, is

1363
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:28,160
 already mixed use, and we're trying to sell the 8.5 acres, and the majority of the people

1364
01:39:28,160 --> 01:39:34,960
 who have an interest is like, "Well, you have 1.7, one zoning, and everything else is different,"

1365
01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:41,360
 so we want to just kind of match everything, so whoever buy it, they have to come to you

1366
01:39:41,360 --> 01:39:47,200
 and request whatever permit and see what they want to do, but we're just trying to make

1367
01:39:47,200 --> 01:39:48,200
 it easy for the sale.

1368
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:54,400
 I mean, we don't have a buyer yet, because obviously everybody's waiting for us to have

1369
01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:55,400
 rezoned it.

1370
01:39:55,400 --> 01:39:56,400
 Sure.

1371
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:59,600
 We just want to make it kind of simple for a buyer.

1372
01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:00,600
 Okay.

1373
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:01,600
 That's it.

1374
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:02,600
 Okay.

1375
01:40:02,600 --> 01:40:03,600
 Okay.

1376
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:04,600
 Any questions from the commission?

1377
01:40:04,600 --> 01:40:05,600
 Thank you.

1378
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:07,800
 I don't see any.

1379
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:08,800
 Thank you very much.

1380
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:09,800
 Thank you.

1381
01:40:09,800 --> 01:40:15,560
 This is a public hearing.

1382
01:40:15,560 --> 01:40:20,620
 If you'd like to speak, you can come down, state your name and address, and you'll have

1383
01:40:20,620 --> 01:40:23,800
 four minutes to speak.

1384
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:24,800
 Careful on those steps.

1385
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:25,800
 I've played hockey too long.

1386
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:26,800
 My name is Mike Keely.

1387
01:40:26,800 --> 01:40:35,560
 I live at 5213 Gala Court.

1388
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:44,040
 I guess my biggest concern is that we never, ever want to see another dollar general in

1389
01:40:44,040 --> 01:40:46,240
 a residential neighborhood.

1390
01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:57,280
 I know that you're people that are supposed to come in and check for the standards.

1391
01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:10,180
 We have semis that park 10 feet from the back of our backyard and sit there and idle overnight.

1392
01:41:10,180 --> 01:41:17,760
 So I have to call the police and have them come out and try to wake up this driver.

1393
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:19,160
 This is not supposed to be.

1394
01:41:19,160 --> 01:41:26,640
 There's not supposed to be any commercial vehicles, especially idling overnight.

1395
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:31,640
 That's against the law, for God sakes.

1396
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:34,840
 I've called the city manager's office on this.

1397
01:41:34,840 --> 01:41:39,960
 Also the street lights in the parking lot.

1398
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:45,720
 I could sit and read a newspaper at my kitchen table 24 hours a day.

1399
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:49,480
 These lights are so bright, and they're way too bright.

1400
01:41:49,480 --> 01:41:54,280
 I've complained, but nobody's done anything.

1401
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:59,080
 Four people had to come out and check it, but I know they didn't, because you can get

1402
01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:06,640
 an app for your phone and hold it up, and it'll give you the lumens of the light inside

1403
01:42:06,640 --> 01:42:10,320
 my house, which is just incredibly bright.

1404
01:42:10,320 --> 01:42:23,440
 Of course, the noise, driving in and out of the parking lot, all of that is ... I can't

1405
01:42:23,440 --> 01:42:27,400
 wait to sell my house and get the hell out of debt.

1406
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:28,720
 It's a nightmare.

1407
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:29,760
 We built this house.

1408
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:38,800
 This was our dream home 35 years ago, and all of a sudden, this thing pulls in, and

1409
01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:48,200
 we never got any requests for zoning change or anything for this dollar general.

1410
01:42:48,200 --> 01:42:54,320
 They kind of snuck it in on us, the way I see it.

1411
01:42:54,320 --> 01:43:00,360
 I don't know why we weren't notified that this was coming, but here we go.

1412
01:43:00,360 --> 01:43:03,960
 We got it, so that's why we're here.

1413
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:12,560
 We just want to make sure that everybody follows the rules, and it didn't happen with Dollar

1414
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:15,040
 General.

1415
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:21,080
 There's no way they follow the rules, and they're not following the ordinances of the

1416
01:43:21,080 --> 01:43:25,760
 city of Nettin that you have on your website.

1417
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:33,840
 All these rules, they're there, but somehow they get away with it.

1418
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:39,240
 What else?

1419
01:43:39,240 --> 01:43:41,440
 What about sewers?

1420
01:43:41,440 --> 01:43:49,680
 We don't have storm sewers in our neighborhood, and you're going to add this stuff on.

1421
01:43:49,680 --> 01:43:59,120
 The storm sewer for the Dollar General, the water ... They put a trough in, basically,

1422
01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:05,840
 and run it out to the street, and it runs down the street to the end of ... I don't

1423
01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:11,280
 know what those streets are, and dumps into the creek.

1424
01:44:11,280 --> 01:44:16,320
 There's no storm sewers, and what's going to happen with this?

1425
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:21,640
 This is more of that, and I've never seen anything like that, and I didn't realize it

1426
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:30,120
 when we purchased our house, but I need to look into getting some real sewers put in,

1427
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:33,880
 storm sewers, so we don't have open storm sewers.

1428
01:44:33,880 --> 01:44:40,920
 When they dump their trash, it's basically running down their streets, which is not a

1429
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:41,920
 problem.

1430
01:44:41,920 --> 01:44:43,480
 It doesn't sound like so.

1431
01:44:43,480 --> 01:44:47,560
 Just one point of clarification on the ... When you talk about storm sewers, you're talking

1432
01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:59,800
 about storm rain runoff, as opposed to refuse water, if you will.

1433
01:44:59,800 --> 01:45:00,800
 Yeah, it's not that.

1434
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:07,920
 It's everything else, though, and most neighborhoods, they have a storm sewer, and a storm sewer

1435
01:45:07,920 --> 01:45:08,920
 system.

1436
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:11,400
 We don't have that.

1437
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:14,400
 We have the curbs.

1438
01:45:14,400 --> 01:45:19,000
 We don't have the six inch, nine inch curbs.

1439
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:25,360
 We have this thing, so that's where the water runs, and it runs down to the end of all the

1440
01:45:25,360 --> 01:45:34,400
 streets in that neighborhood, to the cul-de-sac, which then has a ... I don't know what you

1441
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:38,880
 would call it, just a drainage area that runs to the back of the houses down there, and

1442
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:40,760
 all that dumps into the creek.

1443
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:41,760
 Right.

1444
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:42,760
 Okay.

1445
01:45:42,760 --> 01:45:43,760
 Really?

1446
01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:44,760
 Thank you very much.

1447
01:45:44,760 --> 01:45:45,760
 Into Lake Louisville?

1448
01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:46,760
 Thank you.

1449
01:45:46,760 --> 01:45:51,760
 We can have a drink in one of those, please.

1450
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:52,760
 All right.

1451
01:45:52,760 --> 01:46:02,120
 I don't see any additional people jumping up to comment, so at this time, I will close

1452
01:46:02,120 --> 01:46:05,120
 the public hearing.

1453
01:46:05,120 --> 01:46:11,760
 I guess I'll ask for staff to come up and address a couple of things I heard.

1454
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:20,220
 One, can you give just a very brief explanation on what the stormwater evaluation and remediation

1455
01:46:20,220 --> 01:46:30,400
 process is for development in general, and then the other one must not have been important.

1456
01:46:30,400 --> 01:46:31,400
 Start with that, please.

1457
01:46:31,400 --> 01:46:35,320
 I'll go through a couple of them, and if you think of the other one, you can, of course,

1458
01:46:35,320 --> 01:46:36,320
 ask me.

1459
01:46:36,320 --> 01:46:37,320
 Thank you.

1460
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:47,240
 I think for, yes, so for lighting, for utilities, public or water, sewer, drainage, all of those

1461
01:46:47,240 --> 01:46:52,240
 things, traffic impact, all of those things are reviewed when we have an actual development,

1462
01:46:52,240 --> 01:46:58,320
 and the reason that we don't typically discuss them with straight zoning changes is because

1463
01:46:58,320 --> 01:46:59,320
 we just don't know.

1464
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:04,780
 So anything from a single-family residential home to multifamily development with a lot

1465
01:47:04,780 --> 01:47:10,880
 of residences or a commercial use, like a retail store, could be developed on this site,

1466
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:19,200
 and there's more information that goes into site development and site design to answer

1467
01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:20,720
 questions related to those things.

1468
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:24,320
 We do check those when developments come in with the zoning compliance plan as well as

1469
01:47:24,320 --> 01:47:29,800
 the civil engineering plans, so they are engineered drawings that are intended to meet the minimum

1470
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:37,720
 requirements of water, sewer, drainage, and things like that.

1471
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:39,880
 One of the other questions?

1472
01:47:39,880 --> 01:47:45,160
 There's general confusion about lighting.

1473
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:49,880
 I guess let's couch it for this parcel in particular.

1474
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:59,160
 What would be the requirements of site lighting, be it landscape or parking lot, side of building,

1475
01:47:59,160 --> 01:48:03,040
 in any development, especially to the west of the neighborhood that's to the east?

1476
01:48:03,040 --> 01:48:07,800
 So I mentioned a little bit before, there is a buffer requirement or a landscape buffer

1477
01:48:07,800 --> 01:48:14,640
 requirement between the property and the existing single-family residential structures.

1478
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:18,480
 The width of it is going to be dependent on what actually develops on the site, but there

1479
01:48:18,480 --> 01:48:23,240
 will be at least a minimum buffer that's intended to shield from car lighting and things like

1480
01:48:23,240 --> 01:48:24,780
 that in parking lots.

1481
01:48:24,780 --> 01:48:30,520
 As far as site lighting, there is a minimum standard that site should be downcast and

1482
01:48:30,520 --> 01:48:34,840
 shielded downward so it's not reflecting on neighboring properties.

1483
01:48:34,840 --> 01:48:41,320
 There are minimum foot candle requirements that have to be met at the property line as

1484
01:48:41,320 --> 01:48:42,320
 well.

1485
01:48:42,320 --> 01:48:53,720
 That is checked when we typically either check for DCPs or a site plan, building site plan.

1486
01:48:53,720 --> 01:48:59,960
 Pardon my ignorance here, but when we go through a development process, how do we check foot

1487
01:48:59,960 --> 01:49:04,760
 candle illumination based on a site plan?

1488
01:49:04,760 --> 01:49:05,760
 What is the name?

1489
01:49:05,760 --> 01:49:06,760
 Photometric.

1490
01:49:06,760 --> 01:49:13,160
 Submit photometric plans that identifies where the proposed lighting structures will be and

1491
01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:18,520
 then literally has measurements of how much illumination is going to be on the ground

1492
01:49:18,520 --> 01:49:19,960
 in certain locations.

1493
01:49:19,960 --> 01:49:20,960
 Okay.

1494
01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:22,600
 Thank you.

1495
01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:24,000
 Any other questions?

1496
01:49:24,000 --> 01:49:25,000
 Yes.

1497
01:49:25,000 --> 01:49:26,000
 Commissioner McDade?

1498
01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:27,000
 Sorry.

1499
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:28,000
 Excuse me.

1500
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:29,000
 Dyer?

1501
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:30,000
 Commissioner Dyer.

1502
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:38,120
 Just a question, when the Dollar General was put in and it is also MN, which is what the

1503
01:49:38,120 --> 01:49:45,240
 applicant is asking this area to be, do they also have to follow that buffer zone with

1504
01:49:45,240 --> 01:49:47,600
 certain amount of landscaping?

1505
01:49:47,600 --> 01:49:48,600
 Yes.

1506
01:49:48,600 --> 01:49:53,640
 Now, I need to maybe do some research on that one because it's not a part of this request,

1507
01:49:53,640 --> 01:49:58,960
 but yes, if they came in under the current DDC, I'll put it that way, I'm not sure what

1508
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:02,320
 the timing, if they came in under the current DDC, they would have also been required to

1509
01:50:02,320 --> 01:50:05,720
 do that landscape buffer as well as those lighting requirements.

1510
01:50:05,720 --> 01:50:11,760
 And with MN, one of the objectives, if this land is to be sold and somebody comes in and

1511
01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:16,640
 buys it, one of the things that they would now be allowed to do if we do the zoning change

1512
01:50:16,640 --> 01:50:18,960
 is for apartment complexes, correct?

1513
01:50:18,960 --> 01:50:19,960
 Correct.

1514
01:50:19,960 --> 01:50:21,960
 But they can also do townhouses.

1515
01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:22,960
 Correct.

1516
01:50:22,960 --> 01:50:28,160
 And what is the zoning if they just, that would just allow townhouses and not apartments?

1517
01:50:28,160 --> 01:50:34,120
 Most townhouses could potentially be like an R7 or maybe R4 as far as residential zoning

1518
01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:39,880
 districts and not apartments, and then it would also alleviate most of the opportunities

1519
01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:45,120
 for commercial in that instance because it would be residential.

1520
01:50:45,120 --> 01:50:53,520
 So MN is our most least intense commercial district, and then if you're wanting less

1521
01:50:53,520 --> 01:50:58,280
 intense density in residential, you start to leak back into the residential district,

1522
01:50:58,280 --> 01:51:03,720
 so that's your R7s and R4s, which doesn't allow for much of those commercial uses.

1523
01:51:03,720 --> 01:51:11,400
 Could you on the .93 acres there up against East McKinney where that right now is R4,

1524
01:51:11,400 --> 01:51:18,640
 could you just do that as MN because it's up against the road and then the remaining

1525
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:24,440
 5.75 acres, could we recommend a different zoning?

1526
01:51:24,440 --> 01:51:25,560
 Is that always a possibility?

1527
01:51:25,560 --> 01:51:26,560
 Yeah.

1528
01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:30,840
 So I talked over with the applicant a couple of, I think they initially submitted this

1529
01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:36,200
 two, three months ago, so we've thought about it extensively and talked about it extensively.

1530
01:51:36,200 --> 01:51:42,520
 The R7 zoning district, I think, would also meet our moderate residential future land

1531
01:51:42,520 --> 01:51:46,160
 use designation and would also be appropriate for this area.

1532
01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:52,360
 I understand the applicant's goal of having consistent zoning across the property for

1533
01:51:52,360 --> 01:51:57,800
 their purposes, and the moderate residential or the mixed use neighborhood zoning designation

1534
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:01,440
 does also meet our moderate residential future land use designation.

1535
01:52:01,440 --> 01:52:06,120
 So you could request R7, and if that is the direction of this body, I believe you have

1536
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:07,760
 the flexibility to do that.

1537
01:52:07,760 --> 01:52:17,200
 Jeff is recommending approval of the full, the MN for both tracks.

1538
01:52:17,200 --> 01:52:24,680
 Point where I guess to follow up on that question on the, my understanding is that the purpose

1539
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:30,800
 of the rezoning is because this is all a single parcel and because of prior annexations and

1540
01:52:30,800 --> 01:52:38,040
 whatnot, the, there's a strip along East McKinney Street, which is a different zoning than what's

1541
01:52:38,040 --> 01:52:39,240
 south of there.

1542
01:52:39,240 --> 01:52:44,720
 And so am I correct in thinking that in order to have two different zonings and still have

1543
01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:49,720
 this land developable, you'd have to replat it so that both parcels would have street

1544
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:51,720
 access essentially?

1545
01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:56,960
 You would have to replat the second lot or at least provide some type of public easement

1546
01:52:56,960 --> 01:52:57,960
 to that property.

1547
01:52:57,960 --> 01:53:03,480
 I didn't want to clarify that, yes, they are two different parcels under one ownership.

1548
01:53:03,480 --> 01:53:09,120
 And I believe that a large part of that split is if you follow the history of the annexation

1549
01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:14,560
 is because of the, the property is basically along East McKinney Street, we're annexed

1550
01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:19,440
 first and then we kind of came through and did the southern half as well.

1551
01:53:19,440 --> 01:53:25,380
 And could you, sorry to put you on the spot, but I know you know this stuff like the back

1552
01:53:25,380 --> 01:53:27,500
 of your hand.

1553
01:53:27,500 --> 01:53:34,760
 One thing I think didn't come out is the tree preservation requirements for the more intense

1554
01:53:34,760 --> 01:53:42,160
 uses in MN versus what would be allowed that would be mostly residential in, in R7.

1555
01:53:42,160 --> 01:53:43,160
 Does that make sense?

1556
01:53:43,160 --> 01:53:47,600
 Yeah, just if you can talk to that.

1557
01:53:47,600 --> 01:53:51,240
 I don't know the difference on top of my head with tree preservation requirements.

1558
01:53:51,240 --> 01:53:53,240
 So I'll point to Haley for that.

1559
01:53:53,240 --> 01:54:02,800
 I will say they require a similar landscape and tree canopy coverage requirements.

1560
01:54:02,800 --> 01:54:05,440
 That is supposed to say tree canopy coverage, not tree preservation.

1561
01:54:05,440 --> 01:54:06,440
 My apologies.

1562
01:54:06,440 --> 01:54:08,440
 But go ahead, Haley, if you have something to add.

1563
01:54:08,440 --> 01:54:12,080
 Yeah, I was just going to add the tree preservation requirements would be the same regardless

1564
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:16,680
 of zoning or land use, the same standards apply across the board.

1565
01:54:16,680 --> 01:54:23,400
 Okay, I guess since we heard talk of townhomes, that would be single family residential or

1566
01:54:23,400 --> 01:54:30,000
 that I thought those tree preservation requirements were different than commercial and multifamily.

1567
01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:33,840
 Residential is they are allowed to drop a little lower than commercial.

1568
01:54:33,840 --> 01:54:40,360
 So for tree preservation, is it ESA on site or are we talking just straight tree preservation?

1569
01:54:40,360 --> 01:54:41,680
 There is ESA on site.

1570
01:54:41,680 --> 01:54:46,000
 There is a difference and you may be thinking of the upland habitat ESA type, which has

1571
01:54:46,000 --> 01:54:50,880
 a lower standard for commercial than single family in terms of the amount that has to

1572
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:52,360
 be maintained.

1573
01:54:52,360 --> 01:54:56,120
 Straight tree preservation for things outside of ESAs is the same across the board.

1574
01:54:56,120 --> 01:55:01,280
 It starts at 30% being the required, but you can drop to 20% with higher mitigation.

1575
01:55:01,280 --> 01:55:02,280
 Okay.

1576
01:55:02,280 --> 01:55:03,280
 Thank you.

1577
01:55:03,280 --> 01:55:04,280
 Thank you.

1578
01:55:04,280 --> 01:55:12,960
 So let me just make sure I'm understanding this right, because it's lots of tree talk.

1579
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:21,600
 And that is the key difference between perhaps an MN and an RR7 would be that with single

1580
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:32,600
 family type uses, any upland habitat in the area has a larger upland habitat ESA preservation.

1581
01:55:32,600 --> 01:55:39,300
 It's probably not the word our code uses, but you must maintain a higher percentage

1582
01:55:39,300 --> 01:55:46,000
 of that for the commercial and multifamily uses than you do for the residential uses.

1583
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:47,000
 Yes.

1584
01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:48,000
 Is that correct?

1585
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:49,000
 Yes.

1586
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:57,920
 And I do want to point out that because this is a straight rezoning request, the MN district

1587
01:55:57,920 --> 01:56:06,120
 does still permit some of those single families, so it could develop either way, but that is

1588
01:56:06,120 --> 01:56:07,120
 the case, correct?

1589
01:56:07,120 --> 01:56:11,680
 If it is developed with residential, they are permitted to preserve or conserve less

1590
01:56:11,680 --> 01:56:13,920
 than commercial and multifamily.

1591
01:56:13,920 --> 01:56:14,920
 Okay.

1592
01:56:14,920 --> 01:56:15,920
 Thank you.

1593
01:56:15,920 --> 01:56:22,200
 Any other questions from the commission or discussion?

1594
01:56:22,200 --> 01:56:31,520
 I will actually ask our legal to explain a few issues, because one is we have six commissioners

1595
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:32,520
 here.

1596
01:56:32,520 --> 01:56:38,600
 We will explain what our procedure is in the case of a tight vote, as well as give us some

1597
01:56:38,600 --> 01:56:52,840
 background and information on how to form a motion if the intention is to require counsel

1598
01:56:52,840 --> 01:56:57,000
 to trigger the super majority requirement on the council for a motion where we would

1599
01:56:57,000 --> 01:56:58,000
 not...

1600
01:56:58,000 --> 01:57:00,760
 Yeah, I'll stop there because I'll just make it easy.

1601
01:57:00,760 --> 01:57:01,760
 Thank you.

1602
01:57:01,760 --> 01:57:02,760
 Okay.

1603
01:57:02,760 --> 01:57:03,760
 I've got you.

1604
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:04,760
 Okay.

1605
01:57:04,760 --> 01:57:05,760
 So no worries.

1606
01:57:05,760 --> 01:57:14,480
 So if there's a tie vote here, then the item comes back at the next PNZ meeting.

1607
01:57:14,480 --> 01:57:18,680
 It escapes me whether it comes back as an individual consideration or a public hearing,

1608
01:57:18,680 --> 01:57:24,760
 but you will have another opportunity to take a whack at it and hopefully resolve the tie.

1609
01:57:24,760 --> 01:57:32,480
 If there is a desire to recommend an alternative zoning district to council and make it clear

1610
01:57:32,480 --> 01:57:44,200
 that planning and zoning's opinion on the request to rezone MN is a denial, then probably

1611
01:57:44,200 --> 01:57:51,960
 the simplest way to do that, pardon me, is to make a motion generally in the form of,

1612
01:57:51,960 --> 01:58:04,680
 "I move to recommend approval of R7 and recommend denial of MN for the subject zoning request."

1613
01:58:04,680 --> 01:58:10,920
 I just want to note that that's a motion that's doing two things, and so consider in your

1614
01:58:10,920 --> 01:58:18,920
 vote whether you agree with both things should that motion be made and seconded.

1615
01:58:18,920 --> 01:58:24,760
 And please ask questions before the vote if you're not sure.

1616
01:58:24,760 --> 01:58:25,760
 Thank you.

1617
01:58:25,760 --> 01:58:29,400
 Commissioner McDuff, I think you had your name on the board for a question.

1618
01:58:29,400 --> 01:58:30,400
 Yes.

1619
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:35,240
 I just wanted to say this in a public hearing that I do have some concerns about this, and

1620
01:58:35,240 --> 01:58:45,060
 my first concern is that the MN rezoning allows for multifamily construction, and that would

1621
01:58:45,060 --> 01:58:49,240
 mean apartments behind the neighborhood.

1622
01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:57,160
 The other thing that concerns me now that I hear from the public is the light pollution,

1623
01:58:57,160 --> 01:59:00,360
 the noise pollution, just of some concern.

1624
01:59:00,360 --> 01:59:07,080
 So for the record, we were hearing it for the record, but I guess the big one for me

1625
01:59:07,080 --> 01:59:14,440
 as a retired educator is the traffic that will be involved with the more commercial

1626
01:59:14,440 --> 01:59:19,420
 development right across from Ryan High School, and the staff is assured that that would be

1627
01:59:19,420 --> 01:59:27,640
 one of the steps of analysis, the study further on down the line, but I want to register that

1628
01:59:27,640 --> 01:59:29,240
 as my concern.

1629
01:59:29,240 --> 01:59:39,440
 I will say I am thinking from looking at what's around adjacent to this property that requested

1630
01:59:39,440 --> 01:59:45,280
 to be rezoned, I do think an R-7 might be more appropriate.

1631
01:59:45,280 --> 01:59:47,120
 Thank you.

1632
01:59:47,120 --> 01:59:48,760
 Sure.

1633
01:59:48,760 --> 01:59:51,760
 Commissioner Dyer.

1634
01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:54,360
 Sorry.

1635
01:59:54,360 --> 02:00:03,820
 I would also like to say that after hearing everything and looking at the property located

1636
02:00:03,820 --> 02:00:10,000
 on the east side being a single family residential, and the property on the west side of this

1637
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:21,960
 particular strip of land, I just don't have concerns that if we move to do an MN zoning

1638
02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:30,880
 approval that having the potential to have apartment units there is not a good transition

1639
02:00:30,880 --> 02:00:37,600
 between a single family residence into what is slated to be built on the west side of

1640
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:38,600
 this property.

1641
02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:45,800
 I also have concerns about lights that would be accompanied with the parking requirements

1642
02:00:45,800 --> 02:00:52,280
 for apartment units, the noise that would also be associated with that.

1643
02:00:52,280 --> 02:00:54,680
 You're already up against a busy street.

1644
02:00:54,680 --> 02:01:02,400
 I think an R-7 would be a better suited zone for this because I think having town homes

1645
02:01:02,400 --> 02:01:11,120
 would be a great transition between what is established with the single family, what is

1646
02:01:11,120 --> 02:01:16,320
 scheduled to be built on the west side of this property, and I think it also is a great

1647
02:01:16,320 --> 02:01:26,800
 way to achieve home ownership for some of our residents who I would think townhouses,

1648
02:01:26,800 --> 02:01:31,400
 as long as they're not luxury, I think in this area it would be a good affordable plan

1649
02:01:31,400 --> 02:01:32,560
 for this.

1650
02:01:32,560 --> 02:01:43,440
 So as it sits before us, I would be a no vote on an MN zone motion.

1651
02:01:43,440 --> 02:01:44,440
 Commissioner Riggs.

1652
02:01:44,440 --> 02:01:48,740
 Yeah, I share the same concerns with the MN zoning.

1653
02:01:48,740 --> 02:01:53,240
 Not only can you do apartments in MN, but you could also do retail, so it sounds like

1654
02:01:53,240 --> 02:01:56,160
 another kind of dollar general situation.

1655
02:01:56,160 --> 02:02:01,920
 I personally think I'd be more concerned about the apartments, and Mia, this is maybe a question

1656
02:02:01,920 --> 02:02:03,480
 for you.

1657
02:02:03,480 --> 02:02:09,560
 With the R-7, multifamily is still allowed, but it's a specific use permit.

1658
02:02:09,560 --> 02:02:13,080
 What would that process be, because it's still technically allowed?

1659
02:02:13,080 --> 02:02:18,920
 Yes, so the specific use permit process, that R-7 district does allow multifamily with a

1660
02:02:18,920 --> 02:02:20,280
 specific use permit.

1661
02:02:20,280 --> 02:02:25,600
 That process, basically we review the zoning compliance plan beforehand, so before the

1662
02:02:25,600 --> 02:02:29,080
 zoning change instead of with a straight zoning change, we do it after.

1663
02:02:29,080 --> 02:02:33,480
 We would review the zoning compliance plan, landscape plans, as well as building elevations

1664
02:02:33,480 --> 02:02:39,120
 in some cases, and then we would make sure that it is in compliance with the Denton Development

1665
02:02:39,120 --> 02:02:43,040
 Code standards for development in multifamily.

1666
02:02:43,040 --> 02:02:46,800
 We would bring it before this body as a specific use permit.

1667
02:02:46,800 --> 02:02:52,060
 It would be noticed, so the neighborhood or the adjacent property owners would also get

1668
02:02:52,060 --> 02:02:58,360
 a notification of the hearing, as well as they would be available or able to see copies

1669
02:02:58,360 --> 02:03:01,320
 of the site plan and the actual development plan for the area.

1670
02:03:01,320 --> 02:03:04,880
 This body would make a recommendation, and then city council is ultimately the approving

1671
02:03:04,880 --> 02:03:07,360
 body for specific use permits.

1672
02:03:07,360 --> 02:03:13,680
 Okay, I kind of like that, because if we go with R-7, it doesn't preclude a multifamily.

1673
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:17,640
 Maybe there's a plan they could come up with and come back to us and go, "Maybe that's

1674
02:03:17,640 --> 02:03:22,920
 a good idea," but as of right now, it kind of precludes the multifamily and definitely

1675
02:03:22,920 --> 02:03:27,540
 precludes the retail, so I think I would be more in favor of that.

1676
02:03:27,540 --> 02:03:32,200
 The other question I have is the property to the west is a PD.

1677
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:35,600
 Can you talk a little bit about the PD and what's going to go there?

1678
02:03:35,600 --> 02:03:36,600
 Sure.

1679
02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:39,360
 I tried to explain it a little bit.

1680
02:03:39,360 --> 02:03:43,840
 The intent behind the PD or the applicants for the PD is a non-profit organization.

1681
02:03:43,840 --> 02:03:47,240
 It's the Love First Community or Grace Like Rain.

1682
02:03:47,240 --> 02:03:52,360
 I can't remember the name of the community or the organization.

1683
02:03:52,360 --> 02:03:59,480
 They are proposed or they have approved or they have been approved for ... Basically,

1684
02:03:59,480 --> 02:04:00,480
 it's multifamily.

1685
02:04:00,480 --> 02:04:03,400
 From our point of view, it's like horizontal multifamily.

1686
02:04:03,400 --> 02:04:09,240
 It's a variety or a bunch of different residential structures on one site.

1687
02:04:09,240 --> 02:04:13,240
 As a part of their PD, though, they also have to have program buildings, so they also have

1688
02:04:13,240 --> 02:04:22,300
 to have an office space, certain community features for the enjoyment of those residents,

1689
02:04:22,300 --> 02:04:29,400
 and then the housing is intended to be transitional housing that supports people who are sort

1690
02:04:29,400 --> 02:04:30,600
 of an in-between state.

1691
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:33,640
 They're either looking for jobs, they're looking for service, they're looking for assistance

1692
02:04:33,640 --> 02:04:36,360
 in some kind of way.

1693
02:04:36,360 --> 02:04:37,360
 That's what that's intended for.

1694
02:04:37,360 --> 02:04:41,960
 I think from a land use standpoint, it's largely multifamily.

1695
02:04:41,960 --> 02:04:45,260
 That's the best way that what we see from the outside and what we'd see on the ground,

1696
02:04:45,260 --> 02:04:46,880
 that's what it will look like.

1697
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:47,880
 Okay.

1698
02:04:47,880 --> 02:04:48,880
 Thank you.

1699
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:49,880
 Yeah.

1700
02:04:49,880 --> 02:04:55,840
 I do think that the R7 sounds like a good transition from single family into the PD.

1701
02:04:55,840 --> 02:04:56,840
 Understood.

1702
02:04:56,840 --> 02:04:57,840
 I shared concerns.

1703
02:04:57,840 --> 02:05:06,280
 Just one question from me.

1704
02:05:06,280 --> 02:05:10,600
 There's a separate parcel from where the Dollar General is that's north of this neighborhood

1705
02:05:10,600 --> 02:05:13,000
 to the east of the subject property.

1706
02:05:13,000 --> 02:05:17,520
 That's also zoned MN right now, and I think it's undeveloped.

1707
02:05:17,520 --> 02:05:25,360
 I want to make sure that because of the complication of how zoning works, I want to make sure that

1708
02:05:25,360 --> 02:05:31,520
 the public who's here understands what could happen on that piece of land as well and how

1709
02:05:31,520 --> 02:05:36,600
 that impacts what we might decide on the subject property.

1710
02:05:36,600 --> 02:05:40,720
 If you could just confirm what zoning that is and explain what could be built.

1711
02:05:40,720 --> 02:05:41,720
 Yeah.

1712
02:05:41,720 --> 02:05:46,200
 Just to confirm the property you should talk ... Are you referencing this one here at the

1713
02:05:46,200 --> 02:05:47,200
 corner?

1714
02:05:47,200 --> 02:05:49,400
 There's that, and then I think there's the one to the east as well.

1715
02:05:49,400 --> 02:05:50,400
 This one here?

1716
02:05:50,400 --> 02:05:51,400
 Yeah.

1717
02:05:51,400 --> 02:05:52,400
 Yes.

1718
02:05:52,400 --> 02:05:53,400
 Those properties are currently zoned MN.

1719
02:05:53,400 --> 02:05:59,200
 The land uses that have been providing your backup that would be permitted under the current

1720
02:05:59,200 --> 02:06:04,800
 MN zoning is also currently permitted on MN property.

1721
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:08,100
 General retail is permitted on those properties, so I know that the neighborhood expressed

1722
02:06:08,100 --> 02:06:12,360
 concerns about the existing retail there.

1723
02:06:12,360 --> 02:06:13,360
 That could occur.

1724
02:06:13,360 --> 02:06:18,280
 We don't discriminate against the specific brand of retail, but that could occur there

1725
02:06:18,280 --> 02:06:19,280
 also.

1726
02:06:19,280 --> 02:06:20,280
 Okay.

1727
02:06:20,280 --> 02:06:21,720
 As well as multifamily?

1728
02:06:21,720 --> 02:06:22,720
 As well as multifamily.

1729
02:06:22,720 --> 02:06:23,720
 That is correct.

1730
02:06:23,720 --> 02:06:24,720
 Okay.

1731
02:06:24,720 --> 02:06:37,480
 I want to check with the applicant, just because there's some differing opinions.

1732
02:06:37,480 --> 02:06:44,120
 I know staff spoke to the discussion between you all on MN versus R7.

1733
02:06:44,120 --> 02:06:50,200
 Is R7 something that you are willing to entertain, or would you rather have an up-down vote on

1734
02:06:50,200 --> 02:06:52,880
 whether MN is approved?

1735
02:06:52,880 --> 02:06:55,480
 Well, we would prefer the MN.

1736
02:06:55,480 --> 02:07:02,320
 The only reason is because the adjacent property is MN, and on that point, we can sell the

1737
02:07:02,320 --> 02:07:07,600
 8.5 acres as a one zoning and not different zoning.

1738
02:07:07,600 --> 02:07:08,600
 I see.

1739
02:07:08,600 --> 02:07:14,960
 That's why we have people ... Well, you have right now, we're trying to sell three different

1740
02:07:14,960 --> 02:07:20,680
 parcels, three different zonings, and it's what is causing conflict.

1741
02:07:20,680 --> 02:07:25,760
 They're all looking for one zoning, so it's make it easier.

1742
02:07:25,760 --> 02:07:29,800
 I think I now understand, and I missed this point before.

1743
02:07:29,800 --> 02:07:36,160
 The applicant that you're representing owns both the R4 zoned parcel next to ...

1744
02:07:36,160 --> 02:07:47,400
 It's the RR and R2, that's the 6.7 acres in total, and then the property next to it is

1745
02:07:47,400 --> 02:07:54,680
 a 1.7 acre, that's MN, and so we're trying to sell everything as a bundle.

1746
02:07:54,680 --> 02:07:55,680
 Got it.

1747
02:07:55,680 --> 02:07:56,680
 It's three different parcels, three different zonings.

1748
02:07:56,680 --> 02:08:02,360
 So three different parcels are under common ownership, only two of them are for the rezoning

1749
02:08:02,360 --> 02:08:03,360
 this evening?

1750
02:08:03,360 --> 02:08:05,040
 Yes, because one is already MN.

1751
02:08:05,040 --> 02:08:06,040
 Understood.

1752
02:08:06,040 --> 02:08:11,960
 And everybody who's showing interest for the MN is like, "Yeah, but you have two more zonings

1753
02:08:11,960 --> 02:08:15,200
 in here, so everything should be one."

1754
02:08:15,200 --> 02:08:16,200
 Okay.

1755
02:08:16,200 --> 02:08:17,200
 That's the reason.

1756
02:08:17,200 --> 02:08:20,200
 Thank you.

1757
02:08:20,200 --> 02:08:24,480
 Commissioner Dyer.

1758
02:08:24,480 --> 02:08:35,920
 Just to piggyback off of Commissioner Riggs, Mia, so if we do the R7 and they were to come

1759
02:08:35,920 --> 02:08:42,240
 back with the PD overlay, do you as city staff, because city staff changes, the people sitting

1760
02:08:42,240 --> 02:08:47,880
 up here on this board changes, do you guys go back and look at transcripts to see what

1761
02:08:47,880 --> 02:08:50,520
 the discussion was in the past?

1762
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:51,840
 Sometimes.

1763
02:08:51,840 --> 02:08:59,160
 I think probably with the more particular, not odd, PD overlays, but if there's something,

1764
02:08:59,160 --> 02:09:04,640
 we'll pool the overlay, of course, and if there's something in there that's very specific,

1765
02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:09,120
 sometimes there is curiosity about, "Well, what was the discussion that led to that?"

1766
02:09:09,120 --> 02:09:14,520
 And then sometimes we'll put it, I think Hillary might come in on this, we'll put it in the

1767
02:09:14,520 --> 02:09:16,720
 statement for the ordinance as well.

1768
02:09:16,720 --> 02:09:22,160
 If it's something very specific or very niche, we'll put it in the whereas statements that

1769
02:09:22,160 --> 02:09:34,600
 expresses the desire behind the intent of the ordinance and the PD sometimes as well.

1770
02:09:34,600 --> 02:09:35,600
 Commissioner Riggs.

1771
02:09:35,600 --> 02:09:38,000
 I just wanted to follow back up on that.

1772
02:09:38,000 --> 02:09:45,640
 So I'm looking at the zoning uses and it looks like also general retail would be allowed,

1773
02:09:45,640 --> 02:09:49,920
 but would be a specific use permit again, right?

1774
02:09:49,920 --> 02:09:50,920
 Let's double-check.

1775
02:09:50,920 --> 02:09:57,520
 Because what I'm thinking is if it doesn't preclude, it makes it a little bit more difficult,

1776
02:09:57,520 --> 02:10:03,320
 but it doesn't preclude, say, having some kind of retail up there against McKinney Street

1777
02:10:03,320 --> 02:10:07,320
 and then possibly multifamily that just make it harder and they would have to come in with

1778
02:10:07,320 --> 02:10:12,640
 the specific plan and then we're talking about a specific plan instead of just blanket zoning.

1779
02:10:12,640 --> 02:10:14,240
 Yes, that is correct.

1780
02:10:14,240 --> 02:10:19,560
 If general retail were to occur on an R7 property, it would require approval of a specific use

1781
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:28,560
 permit.

1782
02:10:28,560 --> 02:10:29,560
 Commissioner Dyer.

1783
02:10:29,560 --> 02:10:30,560
 Oh, no.

1784
02:10:30,560 --> 02:10:31,560
 I'm sorry.

1785
02:10:31,560 --> 02:10:35,840
 At one time, I thought I was reading minds and I was not, my apologies.

1786
02:10:35,840 --> 02:10:44,120
 No, I mean, I know you said R7, but is there one that would exempt a potential, you know,

1787
02:10:44,120 --> 02:10:51,680
 the PD for the multifamily or for the retail where it's just some form of residential in

1788
02:10:51,680 --> 02:10:52,680
 the long strip?

1789
02:10:52,680 --> 02:10:58,240
 I mean, I understand the applicant's desire to have it all MN because it matches what's

1790
02:10:58,240 --> 02:11:05,080
 to the east of it, but, and I also see the, like I said earlier, that .93 acres up against

1791
02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:13,480
 McKinney because that all makes, I mean, it all makes logical sense to have potential

1792
02:11:13,480 --> 02:11:17,920
 retail space up there because you're on a major road, but just that long strip where

1793
02:11:17,920 --> 02:11:29,240
 you're butting up against a whole single family unit, to me, it just, the transition between

1794
02:11:29,240 --> 02:11:37,520
 that and the PD overlay on the west side, townhomes just seem like such a better fit.

1795
02:11:37,520 --> 02:11:43,920
 I think if that was the move of the body, it would most likely, there have to be a PD

1796
02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:51,440
 or one of the less intense residential districts that just doesn't permit many of the commercial

1797
02:11:51,440 --> 02:11:52,440
 land uses.

1798
02:11:52,440 --> 02:11:53,440
 Okay.

1799
02:11:53,440 --> 02:11:54,440
 Yeah.

1800
02:11:54,440 --> 02:12:02,640
 So it's an interesting parcel.

1801
02:12:02,640 --> 02:12:07,320
 It has the one remaining crosswalk since as we widen the road, we like to close crosswalks.

1802
02:12:07,320 --> 02:12:14,120
 If you look back at the overlay, I think in your presentation, before we widened the road,

1803
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:17,800
 we had two crosswalks there and it was safe for people to walk across the street and now

1804
02:12:17,800 --> 02:12:22,160
 it no longer is, so we closed one of them, but it does have a light there, so as long

1805
02:12:22,160 --> 02:12:31,400
 as people stop at the red light, it's safer than it would otherwise be.

1806
02:12:31,400 --> 02:12:42,680
 I understand the desire for R7 as well, I mean, sorry, for MN as well, for contiguousness.

1807
02:12:42,680 --> 02:12:49,520
 I think it's likely there is some upload and habitat here, so we've got to be conscious

1808
02:12:49,520 --> 02:12:52,160
 about the priorities that we're setting in place.

1809
02:12:52,160 --> 02:13:03,500
 I think I've said before that almost all applications have some competing priorities and we need

1810
02:13:03,500 --> 02:13:11,760
 to be mindful of that between habitat preservation and development and that sort of thing.

1811
02:13:11,760 --> 02:13:20,640
 I'll just remind the commission that R7, I think I could go along with that, R6 or below

1812
02:13:20,640 --> 02:13:32,160
 I couldn't, just because all it does is move the neighborhood concerns from this eastern

1813
02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:35,500
 border of the subject property to the western border of the subject property.

1814
02:13:35,500 --> 02:13:40,680
 It doesn't actually resolve them.

1815
02:13:40,680 --> 02:13:48,200
 One thing just for the applicant's awareness, in some cases like this, adjacent to residential

1816
02:13:48,200 --> 02:13:57,360
 neighborhoods, while it would cause an additional public hearing process to come before council

1817
02:13:57,360 --> 02:14:06,400
 and this commission if multifamily use was proposed, because of our requirements in the

1818
02:14:06,400 --> 02:14:13,400
 MN district for height of the first floor, in some cases you can actually be more creative

1819
02:14:13,400 --> 02:14:20,580
 in site layout and number of units that you can get on the property with R7 than you can

1820
02:14:20,580 --> 02:14:26,960
 with MN, because of that 12 foot first floor combined with the 40 foot height limitations.

1821
02:14:26,960 --> 02:14:36,640
 So it's not necessarily the downgrade in buildability that it might appear.

1822
02:14:36,640 --> 02:14:41,320
 Commissioner McDade.

1823
02:14:41,320 --> 02:14:48,120
 Thank you Mike, we're here tonight and what's on the agenda is a straight zoning the applicant

1824
02:14:48,120 --> 02:14:52,520
 has requested for MN.

1825
02:14:52,520 --> 02:15:00,080
 We would vote up or down on that for the item that's on the agenda and if the applicant

1826
02:15:00,080 --> 02:15:05,960
 then wants to come back and request R7, is that how it will work or we would tell the

1827
02:15:05,960 --> 02:15:10,720
 applicant what we're going to do tonight, whether they want it or not.

1828
02:15:10,720 --> 02:15:24,660
 Yes, so what I heard was that MN was preferable, but R7 would still be accepted, the process

1829
02:15:24,660 --> 02:15:29,440
 would, it's not so much that if we approve MN they would come back later for R7 if they

1830
02:15:29,440 --> 02:15:35,320
 wanted a use in R7, because MN is a superset of what's allowed in R7, it would be sort

1831
02:15:35,320 --> 02:15:41,380
 of the opposite if we were to approve R7 and they wanted to do one of the two uses that

1832
02:15:41,380 --> 02:15:48,080
 requires that SUP, which is the multifamily and/or retail use that would require them

1833
02:15:48,080 --> 02:15:54,240
 to come back with a full SUP request, which typically includes a site plan, layout, that

1834
02:15:54,240 --> 02:15:55,240
 sort of thing.

1835
02:15:55,240 --> 02:15:57,560
 Does that answer your question?

1836
02:15:57,560 --> 02:16:05,280
 A little bit, but whatever someone wants to build on this site, they're going to still

1837
02:16:05,280 --> 02:16:10,400
 come back here or to council?

1838
02:16:10,400 --> 02:16:16,600
 Only if a specific use permit would be required, so for all those uses that have, for example,

1839
02:16:16,600 --> 02:16:22,600
 the P or the P+, those are buildable by right, whereas staff was still, we reviewed site

1840
02:16:22,600 --> 02:16:26,800
 plans for all developments, so we would still review it to make sure it meets our DDC, but

1841
02:16:26,800 --> 02:16:33,880
 it wouldn't require a public hearing process.

1842
02:16:33,880 --> 02:16:34,880
 Commissioner Riggs.

1843
02:16:34,880 --> 02:16:42,240
 Yeah, just to piggyback on what Commissioner McDade was asking, so we make recommendations

1844
02:16:42,240 --> 02:16:47,760
 to council, so technically we don't approve or deny, we're just recommending, but the

1845
02:16:47,760 --> 02:16:54,440
 next step, no matter what we recommend, is to go to council, and so what we'd be voting

1846
02:16:54,440 --> 02:17:01,720
 on or making a motion on is whether or not that we recommend to approve MN, and then

1847
02:17:01,720 --> 02:17:05,560
 is there something, anything else that we would recommend to council for them to consider?

1848
02:17:05,560 --> 02:17:09,000
 That's the way I understand it, so.

1849
02:17:09,000 --> 02:17:12,680
 Yeah, yeah, that's correct.

1850
02:17:12,680 --> 02:17:22,720
 Any other questions or discussion or a motion?

1851
02:17:22,720 --> 02:17:25,320
 Commissioner McDuff.

1852
02:17:25,320 --> 02:17:33,800
 I'd like to make a motion that we disapprove, mixed use neighborhood MN zoning district,

1853
02:17:33,800 --> 02:17:42,520
 and approve, or recommend for approval, residential 7, an R7 zoning district, and this is in reference

1854
02:17:42,520 --> 02:17:54,800
 to Z25-0013, a public hearing recommendation to city council requesting a request by Veronica

1855
02:17:54,800 --> 02:18:05,280
 Yeary on behalf of Benjamin Delcea and Oswaldo Canales to rezone 0.93 acres of land in approximately

1856
02:18:05,280 --> 02:18:06,280
 5.75.

1857
02:18:06,280 --> 02:18:11,320
 Okay, just let me get the second.

1858
02:18:11,320 --> 02:18:13,480
 Commissioner Dyer.

1859
02:18:13,480 --> 02:18:17,000
 I would like to second everything Commissioner McDuff said.

1860
02:18:17,000 --> 02:18:18,000
 Thank you.

1861
02:18:18,000 --> 02:18:21,000
 And staff, is there additional comments?

1862
02:18:21,000 --> 02:18:26,840
 Just wanting to get clarity, because of the discussion that we had, I think if the intent

1863
02:18:26,840 --> 02:18:32,460
 is to have the property to the north zoned MN, I think it needs to be, the motion might

1864
02:18:32,460 --> 02:18:36,240
 need to be slightly different, or at least clarify that that one can be MN and the southern

1865
02:18:36,240 --> 02:18:39,280
 5.75 track to be R7.

1866
02:18:39,280 --> 02:18:40,280
 Thank you for that.

1867
02:18:40,280 --> 02:18:50,080
 So, sorry, it's, I'm doing a good job at making this more complex than necessary because it's

1868
02:18:50,080 --> 02:18:51,080
 confusing me.

1869
02:18:51,080 --> 02:18:53,640
 Do you want to speak to that?

1870
02:18:53,640 --> 02:18:59,140
 No, I think, yeah, I would just like to clarify, was your motion for the entire property before

1871
02:18:59,140 --> 02:19:06,880
 you tonight R7 instead of MN, or was the front portion MN, as had been discussed earlier,

1872
02:19:06,880 --> 02:19:10,760
 and then the southern partial R7, if you could clarify that.

1873
02:19:10,760 --> 02:19:18,240
 I believe to reflect a concern is the currently zoned R4, I'd like to recommend that that

1874
02:19:18,240 --> 02:19:28,960
 be modified, the request for MN to R7, and the MN request is allowable, the one that's

1875
02:19:28,960 --> 02:19:29,960
 on McKinney.

1876
02:19:29,960 --> 02:19:40,080
 So, it's just the property to clarify the R4 presented is R4 on the existing zoning

1877
02:19:40,080 --> 02:19:42,600
 map, exhibit four.

1878
02:19:42,600 --> 02:19:48,440
 Just for clarification, can staff pull up the GIS map or the current zoning map so that

1879
02:19:48,440 --> 02:19:51,600
 we can kind of play, pin the tail on the donkey?

1880
02:19:51,600 --> 02:19:53,440
 Of course we need to.

1881
02:19:53,440 --> 02:19:55,360
 I think that's probably the best map I have.

1882
02:19:55,360 --> 02:20:02,920
 So the brown portion adjacent to McKinney is currently R4, the green portion below that

1883
02:20:02,920 --> 02:20:09,200
 is currently RR, both of them contiguously are requested to be rezoned to MN, so could

1884
02:20:09,200 --> 02:20:13,960
 you clarify your motion based on that information on the map?

1885
02:20:13,960 --> 02:20:24,800
 Yes, exhibited we want to, is shown, I'm talking like you Eric, is depicted on the map, that

1886
02:20:24,800 --> 02:20:28,040
 would be R7, both of those properties.

1887
02:20:28,040 --> 02:20:31,840
 Okay, is that the consensus of the seconder?

1888
02:20:31,840 --> 02:20:35,000
 Okay, so I have a question about that.

1889
02:20:35,000 --> 02:20:37,760
 Okay, hold on.

1890
02:20:37,760 --> 02:20:39,680
 No, no, go ahead.

1891
02:20:39,680 --> 02:20:44,520
 All of it R7, or the first part MN in the southern half R7?

1892
02:20:44,520 --> 02:20:49,200
 Well, I believe the concern was R7, all of it R7.

1893
02:20:49,200 --> 02:20:52,920
 Yeah, I would like to see all of it R7.

1894
02:20:52,920 --> 02:20:58,480
 So if, yeah, all of it R7.

1895
02:20:58,480 --> 02:21:05,840
 So I'm going to pop in, because it's getting a little weird.

1896
02:21:05,840 --> 02:21:10,640
 I'm going to revise my recommendation, I'd like to do a straight up down on MN, so we

1897
02:21:10,640 --> 02:21:17,720
 have that on record for council, so that if they want to proceed with MN, they understand

1898
02:21:17,720 --> 02:21:21,320
 that it's a super majority requirement.

1899
02:21:21,320 --> 02:21:28,000
 Then I would like to recommend that we all understand that a subsequent motion may come

1900
02:21:28,000 --> 02:21:36,240
 up, and that is basically what Commissioner McDev has said, which is to substitute staff's

1901
02:21:36,240 --> 02:21:39,840
 recommendation that says MN with R7.

1902
02:21:39,840 --> 02:21:42,840
 I like that.

1903
02:21:42,840 --> 02:21:44,240
 Cool.

1904
02:21:44,240 --> 02:21:48,520
 So Commissioner McDev, the most procedurally correct thing to do would be to withdraw your

1905
02:21:48,520 --> 02:21:51,440
 motion, and then make a new one.

1906
02:21:51,440 --> 02:21:52,440
 Commissioner McDev.

1907
02:21:52,440 --> 02:22:01,520
 Well, Lisa, I've withdrawn my motion, and Commissioner Dyer, I believe, has a motion.

1908
02:22:01,520 --> 02:22:02,520
 Commissioner Dyer.

1909
02:22:02,520 --> 02:22:11,520
 So I would like to make a motion that we vote to deny staff's recommendation that the .93

1910
02:22:11,520 --> 02:22:20,080
 acres, and the 5.75 acres be zone MN, that we deny that request.

1911
02:22:20,080 --> 02:22:22,080
 With the understanding that there will be subsequent motions?

1912
02:22:22,080 --> 02:22:29,600
 With the understanding that we will have a subsequent motion.

1913
02:22:29,600 --> 02:22:30,600
 Commissioner McDade.

1914
02:22:30,600 --> 02:22:33,880
 I'll second the motion on the floor.

1915
02:22:33,880 --> 02:22:34,880
 Very good.

1916
02:22:34,880 --> 02:22:41,760
 Any other questions or discussion on this first motion before the commission?

1917
02:22:41,760 --> 02:22:50,560
 Seeing none, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1918
02:22:50,560 --> 02:22:55,080
 And I'll call for any subsequent motions at this time.

1919
02:22:55,080 --> 02:22:56,080
 Commissioner Riggs.

1920
02:22:56,080 --> 02:23:04,440
 Yes, I make a motion for both the R4 and the RR to be considered as R7.

1921
02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:13,120
 Certainly with the idea, just to clarify, that both multifamily and commercial is still

1922
02:23:13,120 --> 02:23:16,720
 allowed but would require specific use permit.

1923
02:23:16,720 --> 02:23:17,720
 And Commissioner Dyer.

1924
02:23:17,720 --> 02:23:24,960
 I would like to second that motion.

1925
02:23:24,960 --> 02:23:34,320
 Seeing no discussion or questions, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1926
02:23:34,320 --> 02:23:37,640
 And that item passes 6-0 as well.

1927
02:23:37,640 --> 02:23:41,160
 Thank you.

1928
02:23:41,160 --> 02:23:49,320
 That brings us to item 6, the planning and zoning commission matrix.

1929
02:23:49,320 --> 02:23:52,680
 Does staff have an update?

1930
02:23:52,680 --> 02:24:00,080
 Yes, so we will be marking the communal and small home item off of the matrix after this

1931
02:24:00,080 --> 02:24:03,480
 evening's work session.

1932
02:24:03,480 --> 02:24:06,560
 With that, I have no updates to report from City Council.

1933
02:24:06,560 --> 02:24:11,660
 I did want to remind the commission, you should have received an email this week from Kathy

1934
02:24:11,660 --> 02:24:15,340
 regarding our next meeting on October 22nd.

1935
02:24:15,340 --> 02:24:18,800
 We are looking at a couple of more robust work session items for that night and are

1936
02:24:18,800 --> 02:24:23,200
 seeking to know if the commission can come in at 4.30 that day in the event that both

1937
02:24:23,200 --> 02:24:25,960
 of the tentative work sessions move forward.

1938
02:24:25,960 --> 02:24:30,880
 So please respond to Kathy and let her know your availability at 4.30 that day.

1939
02:24:30,880 --> 02:24:32,360
 Thank you.

1940
02:24:32,360 --> 02:24:33,720
 That would be appreciated.

1941
02:24:33,720 --> 02:24:38,640
 Any additions to the matrix from the commission, Commissioner MacDuff?

1942
02:24:38,640 --> 02:24:44,680
 Yes, I'd like to add, as we discussed in the work session, there was a request for

1943
02:24:44,680 --> 02:24:50,680
 additional apartment versus single family occupancy data.

1944
02:24:50,680 --> 02:24:54,120
 So I'd like to add that to the matrix so we'll have that documented.

1945
02:24:54,120 --> 02:25:03,800
 I believe there was also a request for, although we have finished the small communities agenda

1946
02:25:03,800 --> 02:25:11,920
 item on our matrix, there was some interest in having more discussion on that item.

1947
02:25:11,920 --> 02:25:15,040
 So I'd like to make sure that that's noted.

1948
02:25:15,040 --> 02:25:16,540
 Sure.

1949
02:25:16,540 --> 02:25:22,000
 Just to give staff clarity, are there any specific goals or proposals that you'd like

1950
02:25:22,000 --> 02:25:24,200
 to see on the second item?

1951
02:25:24,200 --> 02:25:26,360
 Thank you for asking that, Chair Pruitt.

1952
02:25:26,360 --> 02:25:32,720
 I think in our work session we talked about the next step to our action item, how we could

1953
02:25:32,720 --> 02:25:43,880
 take some sort of action in recommending development code changes to allow for these types of communities.

1954
02:25:43,880 --> 02:25:52,240
 And I think on the first item, within about last year we had a pretty beefy update on

1955
02:25:52,240 --> 02:25:53,240
 that already.

1956
02:25:53,240 --> 02:25:58,080
 I'll leave it to staff to see whether we need to come back and present that or if we can

1957
02:25:58,080 --> 02:25:59,560
 just send out the information.

1958
02:25:59,560 --> 02:26:06,280
 I will make one request though to add a small item to that information, to that presentation,

1959
02:26:06,280 --> 02:26:08,040
 even if we do just email it out.

1960
02:26:08,040 --> 02:26:14,040
 And that would be, we talked about how we don't have occupancy data, but we do have

1961
02:26:14,040 --> 02:26:16,040
 land area data.

1962
02:26:16,040 --> 02:26:23,920
 And I'd like to see the total acreage in the city that is currently zoned to allow multifamily

1963
02:26:23,920 --> 02:26:25,600
 and is currently undeveloped.

1964
02:26:25,600 --> 02:26:32,800
 So that would be MN, MR, MD zones, as well as the total acreage in the city currently

1965
02:26:32,800 --> 02:26:39,920
 zoned for single family residential uses, so R1 through R7, and how much of that acreage

1966
02:26:39,920 --> 02:26:43,400
 is undeveloped, essentially.

1967
02:26:43,400 --> 02:26:49,920
 I think that would help us understand the difference between unmet housing need and

1968
02:26:49,920 --> 02:26:53,760
 land availability, if that makes sense.

1969
02:26:53,760 --> 02:26:54,760
 Sure.

1970
02:26:54,760 --> 02:26:59,180
 So I believe what I'm hearing is recirculate the previous presentation with the addition

1971
02:26:59,180 --> 02:27:03,800
 of data regarding zoning that allows those uses but is undeveloped.

1972
02:27:03,800 --> 02:27:08,640
 And then we may be able to get some occupancy data, I would say take it with a few grains

1973
02:27:08,640 --> 02:27:11,920
 of salt, but I'll look and see what we can find with the help of our friends in economic

1974
02:27:11,920 --> 02:27:12,920
 development.

1975
02:27:12,920 --> 02:27:13,920
 Okay.

1976
02:27:13,920 --> 02:27:14,920
 Thank you.

1977
02:27:14,920 --> 02:27:15,920
 Commissioner Dyer.

1978
02:27:15,920 --> 02:27:17,800
 Can I add something else to the matrix?

1979
02:27:17,800 --> 02:27:24,800
 Just because we have such a newer board, there's so many new members, you know, what, six-sevenths

1980
02:27:24,800 --> 02:27:28,000
 of us have not even served a full year yet.

1981
02:27:28,000 --> 02:27:34,520
 So is it possible that when we have some of our workshops that staff can just go over

1982
02:27:34,520 --> 02:27:40,040
 all those different zones, zoning things, and, you know, where it has P and S and the

1983
02:27:40,040 --> 02:27:46,400
 asterisks, and just, not necessarily in one time, I mean, it might be a couple meetings,

1984
02:27:46,400 --> 02:27:51,840
 but just to kind of review all that with us so we have a true understanding of it.

1985
02:27:51,840 --> 02:27:54,160
 We know what questions we should be asking.

1986
02:27:54,160 --> 02:27:59,120
 It will help with our questioning on that as well because, like, I sit here sometimes

1987
02:27:59,120 --> 02:28:04,000
 in awe that, you know, Chair Pruitt can just, like, rattle them off, but he's also been

1988
02:28:04,000 --> 02:28:10,800
 here for three years, and so we, I know a lot of that comes with having this information,

1989
02:28:10,800 --> 02:28:20,700
 you know, on a bimonthly basis or biweekly, so, yeah.

1990
02:28:20,700 --> 02:28:25,240
 Any other matrix requests from the Commission?

1991
02:28:25,240 --> 02:28:27,120
 Okay.

1992
02:28:27,120 --> 02:28:30,160
 That brings us to concluding items.

1993
02:28:30,160 --> 02:28:35,680
 Anybody have any concluding items this week?

1994
02:28:35,680 --> 02:28:40,080
 I have one concluding item.

1995
02:28:40,080 --> 02:28:45,600
 Because of work travel, I was absent for a couple of meetings.

1996
02:28:45,600 --> 02:28:53,640
 I know that we've discussed the implications of land use and mobility planning and how

1997
02:28:53,640 --> 02:29:01,120
 they intertwine, and I'd just like to take a moment to recognize two people in Denton

1998
02:29:01,120 --> 02:29:05,440
 who lost their lives since the last Pleasant Planning and Zoning Commission that I was

1999
02:29:05,440 --> 02:29:06,740
 at.

2000
02:29:06,740 --> 02:29:09,400
 That was on August 31st.

2001
02:29:09,400 --> 02:29:20,280
 I apologize if I get the pronunciation wrong, but Christian Chovannetz lost her life near

2002
02:29:20,280 --> 02:29:29,840
 Dutch Brothers Coffee, and then last month, on September 22nd, someone lost their life

2003
02:29:29,840 --> 02:29:32,320
 on University Drive near Ector.

2004
02:29:32,320 --> 02:29:38,300
 It's near the new home zone that's being developed, so I'd just like to take a moment of silence

2005
02:29:38,300 --> 02:29:46,460
 for them.

2006
02:29:46,460 --> 02:29:47,460
 Thank you.

2007
02:29:47,460 --> 02:29:52,640
 Any other concluding items?

2008
02:29:52,640 --> 02:30:02,120
 Seeing none, I will adjourn the public regular meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission,

2009
02:30:02,120 --> 02:30:09,400
 and we will resume from our recess of the work session here momentarily once the room

2010
02:30:09,400 --> 02:30:10,400
 clears.

2011
02:30:10,400 --> 02:30:34,560
 Thank you very much for coming.

2012
02:30:34,560 --> 02:30:44,480
 Thank you for coming.

2013
02:30:44,480 --> 02:30:54,000
 If I can get an indication from staff whether we need to recount or not, I'm not sure, to

2014
02:30:54,000 --> 02:31:06,640
 restart the video.

2015
02:31:06,640 --> 02:31:24,680
 This time, we will reconvene from our work session and continue work session item 3B,

2016
02:31:24,680 --> 02:31:27,840
 PZ25-194.

2017
02:31:27,840 --> 02:31:35,640
 Just to remind you where we were, we had discussed the overview of the Southeast End Area Plan,

2018
02:31:35,640 --> 02:31:42,720
 what the goals were, and then what the proposed residential overlay district includes.

2019
02:31:42,720 --> 02:31:50,040
 That is the proposed reduction in minimum front yard setback for a lot smaller than

2020
02:31:50,040 --> 02:31:54,680
 7,000 square feet, a maximum building height of 30 feet for the primary structure and 20

2021
02:31:54,680 --> 02:32:00,960
 feet for the accessory structure, some requirements for the entry features as well as larger windows

2022
02:32:00,960 --> 02:32:09,080
 and doors and trim, and then specific roof forms, and then those architectural elements.

2023
02:32:09,080 --> 02:32:13,720
 We also talked about affordability and then applicability.

2024
02:32:13,720 --> 02:32:19,400
 That gets us to where we were talking about ... I was requesting feedback on what you

2025
02:32:19,400 --> 02:32:26,360
 thought in terms of ... We have talked to the public about some of these things.

2026
02:32:26,360 --> 02:32:33,760
 We are anticipating getting more feedback, but if there's anything else that you think

2027
02:32:33,760 --> 02:32:44,820
 we should be doing or where we should be, so any additional ideas, we're open to.

2028
02:32:44,820 --> 02:32:50,160
 Some direction on that front yard setback, whether we should continue to pursue it or

2029
02:32:50,160 --> 02:32:54,680
 do you think it's something that maybe we should table for now, and then those elements

2030
02:32:54,680 --> 02:32:59,280
 related to the front porch or stoop, given there should there be some flexibility in

2031
02:32:59,280 --> 02:33:02,680
 the size and then what that applicability is.

2032
02:33:02,680 --> 02:33:12,660
 If you have any direction or thoughts, we'd love to have them.

2033
02:33:12,660 --> 02:33:16,240
 Is this separate from the portion that Mia was going to present?

2034
02:33:16,240 --> 02:33:17,240
 Yes.

2035
02:33:17,240 --> 02:33:18,240
 Okay.

2036
02:33:18,240 --> 02:33:20,800
 So direction from the commission on these?

2037
02:33:20,800 --> 02:33:21,800
 Yes.

2038
02:33:21,800 --> 02:33:25,200
 Do you just have any feedback regarding the residential overlay you wanted to provide?

2039
02:33:25,200 --> 02:33:29,560
 Of course, you don't have to answer these questions, but if that ... You can use that

2040
02:33:29,560 --> 02:33:32,240
 as a framing device.

2041
02:33:32,240 --> 02:33:38,720
 Yeah, Commissioner McDade?

2042
02:33:38,720 --> 02:33:44,080
 Just some concerns regarding the requirement to have the porches and the stoops.

2043
02:33:44,080 --> 02:33:51,600
 If someone doesn't have it and they're remodeling, I think it'd be a bit much to require them

2044
02:33:51,600 --> 02:33:55,040
 to add it on there if it doesn't already have it.

2045
02:33:55,040 --> 02:34:03,320
 And then the other side is to require it.

2046
02:34:03,320 --> 02:34:08,960
 It would be nice, may be consistent, but are we telling everybody they have to put in a

2047
02:34:08,960 --> 02:34:10,320
 porch or a stoop?

2048
02:34:10,320 --> 02:34:17,040
 I think maybe that might be something to discuss further or not make it a requirement requirement,

2049
02:34:17,040 --> 02:34:20,280
 but maybe a suggestion.

2050
02:34:20,280 --> 02:34:25,600
 Do you think like a requirement on new construction, but not like if they don't have it, it's grandfathered

2051
02:34:25,600 --> 02:34:33,820
 in and if they decide to do like remodeling of their current home, like existing homes

2052
02:34:33,820 --> 02:34:38,020
 kind of get grandfathered in that they don't have to have it if they have it, but new construction

2053
02:34:38,020 --> 02:34:39,400
 has to have it?

2054
02:34:39,400 --> 02:34:44,380
 I don't even think new construction should have to have it.

2055
02:34:44,380 --> 02:34:51,400
 What was the percentage of residents that liked having?

2056
02:34:51,400 --> 02:34:59,820
 At this point we had six agree for that regulations, zero disagree.

2057
02:34:59,820 --> 02:35:05,360
 So six residents of the entire community.

2058
02:35:05,360 --> 02:35:10,040
 I think I should kind of share the concern of, it seems like we have low participation

2059
02:35:10,040 --> 02:35:14,480
 in the voting on this and there's a lot of people in the neighborhood.

2060
02:35:14,480 --> 02:35:20,880
 I know one of the concerns that we had is obviously gentrification and if we start requiring

2061
02:35:20,880 --> 02:35:25,920
 a lot of these things or we're just making it more expensive to build a home in order

2062
02:35:25,920 --> 02:35:29,480
 to keep the feel, we definitely don't want to do that.

2063
02:35:29,480 --> 02:35:34,000
 We don't want to make it to where, what we're doing is going to make it harder for somebody

2064
02:35:34,000 --> 02:35:35,960
 to build and stay in the area.

2065
02:35:35,960 --> 02:35:38,360
 So that's a big concern I have.

2066
02:35:38,360 --> 02:35:42,700
 I don't know how you get more public participation, because it sounds like you all have gone above

2067
02:35:42,700 --> 02:35:44,640
 and beyond trying to.

2068
02:35:44,640 --> 02:35:49,840
 So that's just some of my thoughts.

2069
02:35:49,840 --> 02:35:51,440
 Commissioner McDuff.

2070
02:35:51,440 --> 02:35:57,600
 I want to address the engage the public, I'm going to be a little flippant here.

2071
02:35:57,600 --> 02:36:02,400
 The only way I would recommend would be to see if you could get CDLAM to come over there

2072
02:36:02,400 --> 02:36:10,340
 and have a public and have some barbecue or something, but a sports figure to come.

2073
02:36:10,340 --> 02:36:15,360
 That's always a great attractor to see somebody to sponsor that.

2074
02:36:15,360 --> 02:36:22,520
 But I agree with Commissioner Riggs, that's not a very good showing to make a decision.

2075
02:36:22,520 --> 02:36:27,480
 My other comment on that, Ms. Julie, is I was waiting for Commissioner McDade to come

2076
02:36:27,480 --> 02:36:29,400
 and give her thoughts.

2077
02:36:29,400 --> 02:36:32,280
 This is her district, district one.

2078
02:36:32,280 --> 02:36:41,040
 She's a lifelong native of Denton, I believe, and went to school here, too.

2079
02:36:41,040 --> 02:36:42,640
 So I value her opinion.

2080
02:36:42,640 --> 02:36:51,400
 So I will defer on making that a requirement.

2081
02:36:51,400 --> 02:36:59,640
 But I will not defer on CDLAM if you could make that happen.

2082
02:36:59,640 --> 02:37:00,640
 Please not catch it.

2083
02:37:00,640 --> 02:37:05,920
 Yeah, I'll just -- I know budgets are tight.

2084
02:37:05,920 --> 02:37:09,200
 Maybe we talked to some of the churches and community groups over there.

2085
02:37:09,200 --> 02:37:15,080
 But I will echo Commissioner McDuff in what gets people out is food.

2086
02:37:15,080 --> 02:37:20,760
 It's really that simple.

2087
02:37:20,760 --> 02:37:28,040
 And I can't find it right now, so I will have to look and send it to staff later.

2088
02:37:28,040 --> 02:37:35,960
 But there was a portion of a Friday staff report at some point in this last year that

2089
02:37:35,960 --> 02:37:40,680
 talked about some of the Southeast Denton processes.

2090
02:37:40,680 --> 02:37:50,720
 And it went through and described specifically how some of these overlays to ensure design

2091
02:37:50,720 --> 02:37:58,640
 compatibility can be married with additional housing option types in order to allow more

2092
02:37:58,640 --> 02:38:01,700
 affordable homes to be built.

2093
02:38:01,700 --> 02:38:06,920
 You know, our Southeast Denton area plan states it a little bit differently, but it talks

2094
02:38:06,920 --> 02:38:12,920
 about these districts being the overlay districts, can limit height, allow additional uses, require

2095
02:38:12,920 --> 02:38:18,440
 higher design standards, just parking regulations, or anything else normally regulated through

2096
02:38:18,440 --> 02:38:22,500
 zoning, which is what we're talking about, except we're not really talking about the

2097
02:38:22,500 --> 02:38:26,560
 allowing additional uses piece, right?

2098
02:38:26,560 --> 02:38:30,960
 And it says Southeast Denton residents welcome new development in the area if it respects

2099
02:38:30,960 --> 02:38:36,800
 the scale and feel of existing neighborhood, of the existing neighborhood, such as moderately

2100
02:38:36,800 --> 02:38:41,800
 sized single-family homes, duplexes, triplexes, small apartment buildings, and pocket neighborhoods

2101
02:38:41,800 --> 02:38:48,720
 clustered around a central courtyard or green space, like what we heard earlier today.

2102
02:38:48,720 --> 02:38:52,680
 So I guess my suggestion would be food.

2103
02:38:52,680 --> 02:39:01,120
 And then when you get people out there, you have a poster that says we can get these things

2104
02:39:01,120 --> 02:39:09,400
 and we can get affordability if you're willing to have a marriage of the changes.

2105
02:39:09,400 --> 02:39:13,920
 I want to do what they want, the last thing I want to do, and I think the last thing they

2106
02:39:13,920 --> 02:39:19,040
 want is to hasten displacement, like Commissioner Riggs talked about.

2107
02:39:19,040 --> 02:39:27,240
 I don't want to impose things they don't want, but I want people who come because of food--

2108
02:39:27,240 --> 02:39:32,960
 sorry, I'm just going to keep saying it-- to fully understand and appreciate the trade-offs

2109
02:39:32,960 --> 02:39:39,600
 they're making and how to get the combination of goals, if that's what they seek.

2110
02:39:39,600 --> 02:39:40,600
 Yes.

2111
02:39:40,600 --> 02:39:47,800
 And at this stage, we have not addressed use and kept it more of those design guidelines

2112
02:39:47,800 --> 02:39:54,560
 to get that umbrella of protection in place to protect that scale and character.

2113
02:39:54,560 --> 02:40:01,080
 If and when there's ever a part two of that conversation, that would be-- was our approach

2114
02:40:01,080 --> 02:40:02,080
 thus far.

2115
02:40:02,080 --> 02:40:03,080
 I don't really understand.

2116
02:40:03,080 --> 02:40:10,720
 I'm totally on board with that phasing from a procedural ordinance perspective.

2117
02:40:10,720 --> 02:40:17,520
 But I think we have to have the conversation at the same time with the public, right?

2118
02:40:17,520 --> 02:40:23,320
 But yeah, whatever the feedback is, if we could have clarity on what staff's future

2119
02:40:23,320 --> 02:40:28,800
 intentions are based on that feedback, and then we can move forward, I think.

2120
02:40:28,800 --> 02:40:29,800
 Commissioner Riggs.

2121
02:40:29,800 --> 02:40:32,960
 Julie, I do have one more thing to say.

2122
02:40:32,960 --> 02:40:38,840
 You talked about the front yard setback, and that was pretty much even kind of a 50/50

2123
02:40:38,840 --> 02:40:39,840
 split on that.

2124
02:40:39,840 --> 02:40:40,840
 Not quite.

2125
02:40:40,840 --> 02:40:51,080
 It was slightly in favor of allowing it, but it seems to be a little more mixed in terms

2126
02:40:51,080 --> 02:40:56,600
 of the community as well as what Planning and Zoning Commission expressed at the last

2127
02:40:56,600 --> 02:40:57,600
 meeting.

2128
02:40:57,600 --> 02:41:00,560
 That's why I was kind of on the fence.

2129
02:41:00,560 --> 02:41:02,720
 Is that a part two conversation?

2130
02:41:02,720 --> 02:41:06,920
 Is that something that we should just set aside for now and think through that a little

2131
02:41:06,920 --> 02:41:11,800
 more, open to any and all suggestions, recommendations?

2132
02:41:11,800 --> 02:41:14,400
 Unfortunately, it's still only seven people.

2133
02:41:14,400 --> 02:41:15,400
 Right.

2134
02:41:15,400 --> 02:41:19,240
 Well, and that's kind of where I was going with it, too.

2135
02:41:19,240 --> 02:41:23,400
 Remind me again, did we-- on the front porch, Stupe, I feel like as if we had conversations

2136
02:41:23,400 --> 02:41:29,400
 as if that would be-- is that allowed in the setback or nothing's allowed in the setback?

2137
02:41:29,400 --> 02:41:36,880
 The front porch or Stupe is allowed to extend into the front yard setback, so it is allowed

2138
02:41:36,880 --> 02:41:39,880
 to encroach as long as it is not enclosed.

2139
02:41:39,880 --> 02:41:41,040
 Okay.

2140
02:41:41,040 --> 02:41:45,200
 With that, I would kind of lean toward not changing it, but allowing the front porch

2141
02:41:45,200 --> 02:41:46,200
 to encroach.

2142
02:41:46,200 --> 02:41:47,200
 Okay.

2143
02:41:47,200 --> 02:41:51,480
 I don't know about anybody else.

2144
02:41:51,480 --> 02:41:59,560
 Staff, and I'm going to assume you have, please, I apologize for my ignorance, but is there

2145
02:41:59,560 --> 02:42:07,480
 some sort of like survey monkey with all these things that you're doing where every single

2146
02:42:07,480 --> 02:42:16,440
 resident property owner in this overlay gets a postcard that says, "We are doing an overlay.

2147
02:42:16,440 --> 02:42:17,920
 We have some suggestions.

2148
02:42:17,920 --> 02:42:19,120
 We want your input.

2149
02:42:19,120 --> 02:42:20,440
 This is your community.

2150
02:42:20,440 --> 02:42:26,920
 Do you want-- go to, you know, go to this, put a QR code where they can take their phone

2151
02:42:26,920 --> 02:42:28,720
 and you know."

2152
02:42:28,720 --> 02:42:34,640
 So that way, at least, you're not having to do events there or do the online meetings

2153
02:42:34,640 --> 02:42:35,640
 or the pop-up meetings.

2154
02:42:35,640 --> 02:42:41,840
 It's just another opportunity for those individuals who are probably working and can't make the

2155
02:42:41,840 --> 02:42:50,040
 meetings because only having five, seven, 12, 10, that's not a good read.

2156
02:42:50,040 --> 02:42:55,840
 And I agree, like, I don't live in that area, so I don't know what those individuals would

2157
02:42:55,840 --> 02:42:56,840
 like.

2158
02:42:56,840 --> 02:43:02,760
 You know, obviously, Commissioner McDade is the closest thing, you know, that we have

2159
02:43:02,760 --> 02:43:08,840
 to hearing what these individuals will like, but it's all about we want to engage.

2160
02:43:08,840 --> 02:43:14,200
 We want to engage with our community, which is why last week or last meeting, I said,

2161
02:43:14,200 --> 02:43:19,200
 you know, thank you to all the people that came because that's how our system is supposed

2162
02:43:19,200 --> 02:43:20,200
 to work.

2163
02:43:20,200 --> 02:43:21,200
 That's how government is supposed to work.

2164
02:43:21,200 --> 02:43:25,200
 It's not supposed to be just us up here making all the decisions.

2165
02:43:25,200 --> 02:43:31,760
 We're just supposed to be representing what everybody in there or outside of these walls,

2166
02:43:31,760 --> 02:43:34,000
 what they want.

2167
02:43:34,000 --> 02:43:38,560
 So we-- there will be a survey online.

2168
02:43:38,560 --> 02:43:46,120
 So with our community meetings, we had a minty meter where we had a survey during the discussion.

2169
02:43:46,120 --> 02:43:53,160
 All of those questions will be put online along with a video of the virtual and then

2170
02:43:53,160 --> 02:43:55,880
 the slide deck.

2171
02:43:55,880 --> 02:43:59,960
 We chose to do the door hangers instead of postcards.

2172
02:43:59,960 --> 02:44:05,480
 The door hangers were much more successful than we had had with postcards.

2173
02:44:05,480 --> 02:44:09,960
 With this area plan, it has been, you know, public engagement has been something that

2174
02:44:09,960 --> 02:44:16,960
 has been very-- we've had to be in the community in lots of places in order to talk to as many

2175
02:44:16,960 --> 02:44:18,940
 people as possible.

2176
02:44:18,940 --> 02:44:28,000
 I would say that this residential overlay is a result of the community engagement and

2177
02:44:28,000 --> 02:44:30,480
 adoption of the area plan by council.

2178
02:44:30,480 --> 02:44:36,360
 So the community has indicated that they want to protect the scale, that they want to protect

2179
02:44:36,360 --> 02:44:37,600
 the character.

2180
02:44:37,600 --> 02:44:43,520
 So we're-- that kind of-- that foundation is in the area plan.

2181
02:44:43,520 --> 02:44:49,320
 Now we're kind of like, what are those details associated with it?

2182
02:44:49,320 --> 02:44:55,260
 We have not found like a community meeting that really like pulled in a significant percentage.

2183
02:44:55,260 --> 02:45:02,800
 It has been those small interactions with community members over many months.

2184
02:45:02,800 --> 02:45:08,680
 So maybe instead of the postcard, maybe it's another set of door hangers that say, your

2185
02:45:08,680 --> 02:45:09,680
 voice is important.

2186
02:45:09,680 --> 02:45:11,280
 We want to hear from you.

2187
02:45:11,280 --> 02:45:17,040
 Please, you know, click on this link, put the QR code like, you know, we want you to

2188
02:45:17,040 --> 02:45:18,040
 be engaged.

2189
02:45:18,040 --> 02:45:23,360
 We want you to be in the decision making of what P&Z and your city council are voting

2190
02:45:23,360 --> 02:45:24,360
 on.

2191
02:45:24,360 --> 02:45:26,520
 Have a voice, you know, type of thing.

2192
02:45:26,520 --> 02:45:32,000
 And we're also-- we are proposing to send out a postcard to property owners because that

2193
02:45:32,000 --> 02:45:37,280
 is while, you know, they're not necessarily residents of Southeast Denton.

2194
02:45:37,280 --> 02:45:42,240
 They may have-- if they own property, we want to make sure that we've heard from everybody

2195
02:45:42,240 --> 02:45:45,600
 who has a-- who's a stakeholder in Southeast Denton.

2196
02:45:45,600 --> 02:45:48,040
 So that's-- yeah, that's a great suggestion.

2197
02:45:48,040 --> 02:45:51,480
 We'll see if that is something that we can accomplish.

2198
02:45:51,480 --> 02:45:55,240
 But we'll definitely have that survey available.

2199
02:45:55,240 --> 02:46:02,200
 Maybe it's more social media, kind of those-- that opportunity, but we'll continue to try

2200
02:46:02,200 --> 02:46:04,760
 to find ways to get the word out on that one.

2201
02:46:04,760 --> 02:46:07,600
 Well, especially-- I mean, social media can be a huge tool.

2202
02:46:07,600 --> 02:46:13,680
 I mean, I'm looking here and all the Halloween posts that the city of Denton is putting,

2203
02:46:13,680 --> 02:46:19,760
 like-- I mean, I don't-- I know that whoever your team is, I'm sure they work really hard.

2204
02:46:19,760 --> 02:46:23,680
 But we've talked a lot about some of the decisions that we're making and it would be nice to

2205
02:46:23,680 --> 02:46:29,840
 see more posts about what's happening in the government, you know, like, your city council.

2206
02:46:29,840 --> 02:46:30,840
 Here's your agenda.

2207
02:46:30,840 --> 02:46:31,840
 Come to the meeting.

2208
02:46:31,840 --> 02:46:32,840
 Come to the PNZ.

2209
02:46:32,840 --> 02:46:33,840
 Come to this committee.

2210
02:46:33,840 --> 02:46:35,200
 Come to that committee.

2211
02:46:35,200 --> 02:46:40,960
 And it's just kind of another thing because when I see stuff like that, I share it out.

2212
02:46:40,960 --> 02:46:45,200
 You know, there's so many around Denton, the Denton downtowners, like, there's all these

2213
02:46:45,200 --> 02:46:47,360
 different groups that you can share it out.

2214
02:46:47,360 --> 02:46:52,720
 And I'm sure this community has their own group that if the city puts something out,

2215
02:46:52,720 --> 02:46:59,840
 it can be shared to that group because that is, fortunately, unfortunately, it's one of

2216
02:46:59,840 --> 02:47:02,240
 the major places where people get their information.

2217
02:47:02,240 --> 02:47:03,240
 Yep.

2218
02:47:03,240 --> 02:47:04,240
 Yep.

2219
02:47:04,240 --> 02:47:05,240
 That's a good point.

2220
02:47:05,240 --> 02:47:10,880
 Also, a recommendation that you leave some door hangers or flyers or postcards, whatever

2221
02:47:10,880 --> 02:47:14,480
 you're going to put out, at the churches in the neighborhood.

2222
02:47:14,480 --> 02:47:18,880
 That's the biggest meeting every week for everybody in the neighborhood and community

2223
02:47:18,880 --> 02:47:19,880
 is at their churches.

2224
02:47:19,880 --> 02:47:20,880
 Thank you.

2225
02:47:20,880 --> 02:47:21,880
 Yes.

2226
02:47:21,880 --> 02:47:24,880
 Thank you.

2227
02:47:24,880 --> 02:47:25,880
 Maybe the church.

2228
02:47:25,880 --> 02:47:33,920
 I will commend staff for the meeting you had in Fredmore Park where you had over 100 people

2229
02:47:33,920 --> 02:47:37,320
 because I heard about it and thought that sounds fun.

2230
02:47:37,320 --> 02:47:43,200
 And I even let my staff leave to come early because there was free pizza.

2231
02:47:43,200 --> 02:47:51,640
 So maybe the staff works with some of the churches to do an event on a weeknight at

2232
02:47:51,640 --> 02:47:58,560
 the church.

2233
02:47:58,560 --> 02:47:59,560
 Any other thoughts?

2234
02:47:59,560 --> 02:48:00,560
 Sorry.

2235
02:48:00,560 --> 02:48:05,080
 I didn't know if I was seeing a stretch or ... Okay.

2236
02:48:05,080 --> 02:48:10,600
 And just to follow up on Commissioner Riggs, who we'll get to in a second.

2237
02:48:10,600 --> 02:48:13,040
 I'm fine with the reduced front setback.

2238
02:48:13,040 --> 02:48:16,600
 It's a detail people probably don't understand.

2239
02:48:16,600 --> 02:48:24,560
 My explanation of that would be to allow homes to be placed closer to the street more like

2240
02:48:24,560 --> 02:48:30,680
 a lot of the older homes in that community are today, right?

2241
02:48:30,680 --> 02:48:35,080
 But that's not a hill I'm going to fight for, so Commissioner Riggs.

2242
02:48:35,080 --> 02:48:36,080
 Yeah.

2243
02:48:36,080 --> 02:48:40,240
 I'd say ... I think we all know there's a couple of homes that went up that don't quite

2244
02:48:40,240 --> 02:48:45,520
 meet the character and assuming that if these recommendations were put into place, those

2245
02:48:45,520 --> 02:48:48,920
 homes would not be able to be built right now.

2246
02:48:48,920 --> 02:48:52,040
 Is that correct?

2247
02:48:52,040 --> 02:48:57,960
 There are elements to those homes which would not be consistent with the proposed overlay.

2248
02:48:57,960 --> 02:48:58,960
 Okay.

2249
02:48:58,960 --> 02:49:04,360
 I think that's the overall intent.

2250
02:49:04,360 --> 02:49:10,000
 I think one of those was actually caused by traffic violence itself, but the car instead

2251
02:49:10,000 --> 02:49:12,920
 of hitting a person went into the home.

2252
02:49:12,920 --> 02:49:16,080
 Yeah.

2253
02:49:16,080 --> 02:49:19,280
 Is it an accident if it happens 40,000 times a year?

2254
02:49:19,280 --> 02:49:21,560
 I don't know.

2255
02:49:21,560 --> 02:49:22,560
 Okay.

2256
02:49:22,560 --> 02:49:26,120
 Any other feedback on this portion?

2257
02:49:26,120 --> 02:49:28,200
 Okay.

2258
02:49:28,200 --> 02:49:29,200
 One more.

2259
02:49:29,200 --> 02:49:30,200
 The height overlay.

2260
02:49:30,200 --> 02:49:31,200
 This is just two slides.

2261
02:49:31,200 --> 02:49:34,200
 This is really quick.

2262
02:49:34,200 --> 02:49:39,280
 If you recall, the community is concerned about the downtown-style development encroaching

2263
02:49:39,280 --> 02:49:41,920
 in those single-family neighborhoods.

2264
02:49:41,920 --> 02:49:46,360
 The plan calls for a limitation on heights in that area in blue.

2265
02:49:46,360 --> 02:49:50,680
 That's the area between the DCTA and then the neighborhoods.

2266
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:58,920
 Our proposal is to ... All that property is on either PF or MN, and PF is public facilities.

2267
02:49:58,920 --> 02:50:02,400
 Those are city facilities or government.

2268
02:50:02,400 --> 02:50:05,880
 An MN allows that height up to 65 feet.

2269
02:50:05,880 --> 02:50:09,360
 We are proposing to limit that height to 40 feet.

2270
02:50:09,360 --> 02:50:17,640
 That would allow a nice transitional zoning or a nice transitional scale between areas

2271
02:50:17,640 --> 02:50:22,720
 to the east and then ... I'm sorry, to the west and then areas to the east.

2272
02:50:22,720 --> 02:50:25,720
 I don't know if you have any feedback on that.

2273
02:50:25,720 --> 02:50:26,720
 That one's pretty straightforward.

2274
02:50:26,720 --> 02:50:28,920
 I think it's a good idea.

2275
02:50:28,920 --> 02:50:29,920
 Okay.

2276
02:50:29,920 --> 02:50:30,920
 Awesome.

2277
02:50:30,920 --> 02:50:31,920
 All right.

2278
02:50:31,920 --> 02:50:39,300
 I like that the city's going to follow its own suggestions.

2279
02:50:39,300 --> 02:50:44,240
 I think it's the same feedback I had previously that I'm fine with the height overlay.

2280
02:50:44,240 --> 02:50:51,720
 Let's just make sure we're explaining it to people with the knowledge that we may be limited

2281
02:50:51,720 --> 02:50:56,760
 in how short we can enforce that in the future because of state legislation.

2282
02:50:56,760 --> 02:50:57,760
 Awesome.

2283
02:50:57,760 --> 02:50:58,760
 Thank you.

2284
02:50:58,760 --> 02:50:59,760
 All right.

2285
02:50:59,760 --> 02:51:03,440
 Thank you so much for your advice and your help and your guidance, and now it's me's

2286
02:51:03,440 --> 02:51:04,440
 turn.

2287
02:51:04,440 --> 02:51:05,440
 Okay.

2288
02:51:05,440 --> 02:51:06,440
 Evening again.

2289
02:51:06,440 --> 02:51:11,200
 I'll try to be brief with mine.

2290
02:51:11,200 --> 02:51:17,320
 Like Julie, this is mostly an update from the last discussion or last time we talked

2291
02:51:17,320 --> 02:51:23,200
 about this as the feedback that we've gotten since then has not been significant enough

2292
02:51:23,200 --> 02:51:29,280
 to really have changes here, but there are some changes based on our last discussion.

2293
02:51:29,280 --> 02:51:33,240
 With this, just to remind you guys, this is the live work overlay.

2294
02:51:33,240 --> 02:51:36,600
 Like the other goals, this is our actions.

2295
02:51:36,600 --> 02:51:41,440
 This is helping us achieve some of those goals of honoring the culture, investing in economic

2296
02:51:41,440 --> 02:51:46,000
 prosperity, and strengthening neighborhoods and housing affordability, but I wanted to

2297
02:51:46,000 --> 02:51:52,400
 bring this specific language that the action recommends because what we are proposing,

2298
02:51:52,400 --> 02:51:56,640
 especially at least in one section, is slightly different from what the action recommends.

2299
02:51:56,640 --> 02:52:01,840
 The action in the southeastern area plan is to create a live work overlay district that

2300
02:52:01,840 --> 02:52:06,720
 focuses on allowing small mom and pop retail, such as bookstores, toy shop, coffee shop,

2301
02:52:06,720 --> 02:52:12,480
 music stores, bar, beer shops, those types of uses, and a portion of a single family

2302
02:52:12,480 --> 02:52:17,080
 home with a portion being used as a residence simultaneously.

2303
02:52:17,080 --> 02:52:23,240
 What we are proposing, and especially in one of the districts, especially, or one of the

2304
02:52:23,240 --> 02:52:27,800
 areas especially, is different than that in that we are proposing to allow standalone

2305
02:52:27,800 --> 02:52:35,480
 businesses as opposed to them being combined with the single family home residence, but

2306
02:52:35,480 --> 02:52:39,000
 that's because we've run into some challenges with implementation and things like that that

2307
02:52:39,000 --> 02:52:41,280
 I'll talk about now.

2308
02:52:41,280 --> 02:52:47,780
 The live work dwelling unit as a land use in our DDC, as well as as defined by the International

2309
02:52:47,780 --> 02:52:54,900
 Building Code, has some very specific requirements to allow for both the living and working component

2310
02:52:54,900 --> 02:53:00,440
 to exist in the same structure.

2311
02:53:00,440 --> 02:53:04,520
 Primarily it is, I won't go into, we kind of covered this in the work session earlier

2312
02:53:04,520 --> 02:53:11,080
 this year, but primarily the residential piece is subordinate to the work piece.

2313
02:53:11,080 --> 02:53:17,440
 So the live work structure is intended to be sort of commercial in the front or commercial

2314
02:53:17,440 --> 02:53:22,040
 on the ground floor, the residents up top or in the back, and the residents should not

2315
02:53:22,040 --> 02:53:25,780
 exceed 50% of the total gross floor area.

2316
02:53:25,780 --> 02:53:32,060
 So within this overlay district, if our goal is to basically allow for some of those uses

2317
02:53:32,060 --> 02:53:40,580
 to exist, I think the question is, is it more important that we allow those uses to exist,

2318
02:53:40,580 --> 02:53:46,160
 or more important that we require them to exist with the combination of a residential

2319
02:53:46,160 --> 02:53:47,160
 structure?

2320
02:53:47,160 --> 02:53:50,880
 So one of the challenges that we've run into with implementing the live work, just land

2321
02:53:50,880 --> 02:53:55,480
 use with absent the overlay, is that the, I think the major one is that the International

2322
02:53:55,480 --> 02:54:02,120
 Building Code requires fire suppression for the mix of uses.

2323
02:54:02,120 --> 02:54:07,120
 If you have a single family residence and a commercial use in the same building, that

2324
02:54:07,120 --> 02:54:12,060
 mixed use type of building does require a significant investment in the existing structure

2325
02:54:12,060 --> 02:54:17,140
 to be able to utilize that as such, or for both of those uses.

2326
02:54:17,140 --> 02:54:25,040
 So the area that we're talking about here, just to remind you guys, is along East Prairie

2327
02:54:25,040 --> 02:54:31,000
 Street, properties west of Skinner, and then properties south of, or on the north and south

2328
02:54:31,000 --> 02:54:34,680
 side of Robertson Street, and on the east and west side of Cook Street.

2329
02:54:34,680 --> 02:54:38,800
 We sort of subsection these out based on the existing land uses, as well as the future

2330
02:54:38,800 --> 02:54:44,760
 land use map designation for these, and mostly what we've been discussing so far is Section

2331
02:54:44,760 --> 02:54:53,020
 A. Just looking at the future land use map, you see Section A there has a neighborhood

2332
02:54:53,020 --> 02:54:55,760
 mixed use designation to the north.

2333
02:54:55,760 --> 02:55:01,520
 They do have those sort of multifamily developments occurring to the north.

2334
02:55:01,520 --> 02:55:06,880
 There's an existing industrial facility in this location here, and so there is an existing

2335
02:55:06,880 --> 02:55:12,480
 mix of both existing land uses, as well as what the future land use map intends for the

2336
02:55:12,480 --> 02:55:13,840
 future.

2337
02:55:13,840 --> 02:55:19,160
 The other sections are a bit more homogenous, that Section B is mostly moderate residential,

2338
02:55:19,160 --> 02:55:21,080
 and Section C is mostly single family residential.

2339
02:55:21,080 --> 02:55:27,280
 So those, in our mind in proposing this, are slightly different from what's along East

2340
02:55:27,280 --> 02:55:29,880
 Prairie Street.

2341
02:55:29,880 --> 02:55:33,760
 What we are proposing, and this is just a further, a closer look at some of those existing

2342
02:55:33,760 --> 02:55:38,720
 land uses, the character I think for the most part is still largely residential.

2343
02:55:38,720 --> 02:55:41,800
 You drive down that street, you see mostly single family homes.

2344
02:55:41,800 --> 02:55:47,580
 There are a couple of different businesses and churches on this street, as well as those

2345
02:55:47,580 --> 02:55:51,960
 industrial facilities that I mentioned earlier.

2346
02:55:51,960 --> 02:55:58,720
 So we asked the community, one, if they believe that uses should stand alone in this area,

2347
02:55:58,720 --> 02:56:03,840
 and specifically which uses should be allowed to or be permitted to stand alone in this

2348
02:56:03,840 --> 02:56:05,360
 area.

2349
02:56:05,360 --> 02:56:08,440
 And what we see is shown there in this table.

2350
02:56:08,440 --> 02:56:16,160
 We've got overwhelming support from the respondents that we spoke to, that restaurants, small

2351
02:56:16,160 --> 02:56:21,020
 retail, personal service, daycare uses are all appropriate for this area.

2352
02:56:21,020 --> 02:56:28,360
 So what staff is proposing is to allow for those uses and those uses alone to stand alone

2353
02:56:28,360 --> 02:56:34,880
 as permitted offices, I'm sorry, as permitted uses within section A, and that's the properties

2354
02:56:34,880 --> 02:56:37,440
 along East Prairie, of the overlay.

2355
02:56:37,440 --> 02:56:43,440
 The properties that are underlying there would be potentially permitted with a specific use

2356
02:56:43,440 --> 02:56:44,440
 permit.

2357
02:56:44,440 --> 02:56:50,280
 Those are land uses that the community, again, is in support of, but staff may have some

2358
02:56:50,280 --> 02:56:54,860
 concerns and would like to take basically the opportunity to take a closer look at them

2359
02:56:54,860 --> 02:56:55,920
 where they are proposed.

2360
02:56:55,920 --> 02:57:00,840
 So Mobile Food Corps typically comes with outdoor events and noise and things, and we

2361
02:57:00,840 --> 02:57:07,880
 heard that that was a concern from the community, similar with professional offices, lighting

2362
02:57:07,880 --> 02:57:14,120
 in that aspect, and possibly what it could bring to the area.

2363
02:57:14,120 --> 02:57:19,640
 So those would be proposed, or those are proposed to be permitted with a specific use permit.

2364
02:57:19,640 --> 02:57:24,840
 Some of the use-specific standards that we would propose for those uses would be to limit

2365
02:57:24,840 --> 02:57:26,280
 the size of the property.

2366
02:57:26,280 --> 02:57:30,480
 I think the commission last time we talked had expressed concerns about the potential

2367
02:57:30,480 --> 02:57:35,560
 of if we do allow for standalone commercial businesses in this area, that the concern

2368
02:57:35,560 --> 02:57:41,520
 about gentrification where this area is redeveloped and looks completely different.

2369
02:57:41,520 --> 02:57:47,660
 So we would impose some size limitations to ensure that it is more compatible with the

2370
02:57:47,660 --> 02:57:50,320
 existing structures and the existing character.

2371
02:57:50,320 --> 02:57:56,920
 We would also impose some of the architectural components that are included in the residential

2372
02:57:56,920 --> 02:57:57,920
 overlay.

2373
02:57:57,920 --> 02:58:02,120
 We would make sure that those were imposed on these properties as well, so that should

2374
02:58:02,120 --> 02:58:07,040
 someone decide to use the existing single-family structure as a business instead, if they were

2375
02:58:07,040 --> 02:58:11,280
 to want to make improvements, they would have to adhere to those architectural standards

2376
02:58:11,280 --> 02:58:17,960
 that the residential area adheres to, and similarly, if they were to want to construct

2377
02:58:17,960 --> 02:58:24,600
 a new building, it would still have to meet the architectural character of the area.

2378
02:58:24,600 --> 02:58:31,160
 At one point earlier in the year, we were proposing a change of base zoning to R7 for

2379
02:58:31,160 --> 02:58:35,580
 the remainder of these properties basically that are not currently zoned R7.

2380
02:58:35,580 --> 02:58:39,260
 After talking a little bit more with the community, there was some concern about how that might

2381
02:58:39,260 --> 02:58:43,560
 impact property taxes and some other things, and ultimately, we can still achieve what

2382
02:58:43,560 --> 02:58:48,360
 we're trying to achieve with allowing those land uses with just keeping the base zoning.

2383
02:58:48,360 --> 02:58:53,720
 So we have removed that from the proposal.

2384
02:58:53,720 --> 02:58:56,880
 Specifically to address some of those other concerns and things that we would include

2385
02:58:56,880 --> 02:59:05,520
 in the proposal would be a minimum hours or limited hours of operation restrictions, specifically

2386
02:59:05,520 --> 02:59:09,720
 that would be the 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Monday through Friday, and 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. Friday

2387
02:59:09,720 --> 02:59:10,720
 through Sunday.

2388
02:59:10,720 --> 02:59:15,960
 Again, the community seemed to be generally in support of those restrictions, as well

2389
02:59:15,960 --> 02:59:21,480
 as a minimum buffer between a new commercial business and an existing residence that would

2390
02:59:21,480 --> 02:59:26,600
 be an 8-foot tall wood fence along the entire property line, as well as a landscape buffer

2391
02:59:26,600 --> 02:59:31,680
 to help mitigate any lighting or things that impacts in that way that might sneak through

2392
02:59:31,680 --> 02:59:32,680
 that fence.

2393
02:59:32,680 --> 02:59:36,480
 Some of the other concerns that we heard were about noise in general.

2394
02:59:36,480 --> 02:59:42,840
 The city does have a noise ordinance that everyone has to adhere by.

2395
02:59:42,840 --> 02:59:43,840
 Most uses have to adhere by.

2396
02:59:43,840 --> 02:59:47,240
 I believe there are some exceptions for the airport and some of the other more intense

2397
02:59:47,240 --> 02:59:48,240
 industrial uses.

2398
02:59:48,240 --> 02:59:53,920
 But in this case, the height or the noise ordinance requirement here would be a max

2399
02:59:53,920 --> 03:00:00,680
 65 dBA measured at 50 feet from the source, and that's about just over normal conversation.

2400
03:00:00,680 --> 03:00:08,160
 So that would be imposed, and if there are concerns, there are paths to enforce that.

2401
03:00:08,160 --> 03:00:09,760
 And then the proposed parking requirement.

2402
03:00:09,760 --> 03:00:17,520
 If you look at our standard, a live/work dwelling unit only requires 1.5 spaces per unit, and

2403
03:00:17,520 --> 03:00:22,000
 so what we are actually imposing would be four spaces per non-residential use.

2404
03:00:22,000 --> 03:00:26,240
 And again, that's the only those uses that the community has said that they would like

2405
03:00:26,240 --> 03:00:28,140
 to see in this area.

2406
03:00:28,140 --> 03:00:34,000
 That basically is consistent with the four spaces per residential or single-family residence

2407
03:00:34,000 --> 03:00:35,580
 that is within the area.

2408
03:00:35,580 --> 03:00:40,360
 So for people who are trying to use their existing structure, it wouldn't require again

2409
03:00:40,360 --> 03:00:44,120
 significant investment and extra paving and things like that.

2410
03:00:44,120 --> 03:00:49,320
 And we do feel like the size of the structures, given the size of the structures and the properties,

2411
03:00:49,320 --> 03:00:54,840
 four spaces would be adequate enough to support parking on that site and not create significant

2412
03:00:54,840 --> 03:01:00,320
 traffic and congestion on the residential streets.

2413
03:01:00,320 --> 03:01:03,240
 One of the other questions, now that we've kind of thought about this, we've had some

2414
03:01:03,240 --> 03:01:06,940
 time to sit with this a little bit and we've talked to the community.

2415
03:01:06,940 --> 03:01:11,400
 So one of the other questions that I wanted to post to commission, and we really hadn't

2416
03:01:11,400 --> 03:01:15,880
 had the opportunity to get community feedback on this piece, but it's those other sections

2417
03:01:15,880 --> 03:01:18,240
 of the live/work overlay.

2418
03:01:18,240 --> 03:01:23,400
 Do we feel like the commercial land uses that we're permitting or we're trying to propose

2419
03:01:23,400 --> 03:01:29,480
 permitting to stand alone within East Prairie, do we feel that those might also be appropriate

2420
03:01:29,480 --> 03:01:30,480
 for this area?

2421
03:01:30,480 --> 03:01:34,880
 And again, we haven't had the opportunity to take that to the community, so I absolutely

2422
03:01:34,880 --> 03:01:42,000
 would, once we find ways to get an improved participation, I would like to discuss that

2423
03:01:42,000 --> 03:01:43,000
 with him.

2424
03:01:43,000 --> 03:01:47,160
 But I also, because we were here at this presentation, wanted to gauge the commission's opinion

2425
03:01:47,160 --> 03:01:56,000
 on standalone commercial uses in the other area, given their existing land uses and sort

2426
03:01:56,000 --> 03:02:00,160
 of what is shown on the future land use map.

2427
03:02:00,160 --> 03:02:06,040
 And I believe that is, yeah, that concludes my portion of the live/work presentation.

2428
03:02:06,040 --> 03:02:11,380
 I can pose that question, Chair, and then if there's any other discussion or questions

2429
03:02:11,380 --> 03:02:14,440
 that the commission has about that, we can dive into that also.

2430
03:02:14,440 --> 03:02:23,080
 Sure, so specifically on the proposed land uses, as staff has explained, any comments

2431
03:02:23,080 --> 03:02:26,040
 of support or concern on that?

2432
03:02:26,040 --> 03:02:32,840
 I'm sorry, I made them all tired.

2433
03:02:32,840 --> 03:02:36,840
 Yeah, sorry.

2434
03:02:36,840 --> 03:02:39,280
 I think it's a very thoughtful proposal.

2435
03:02:39,280 --> 03:02:43,000
 I appreciate the parking flexibility.

2436
03:02:43,000 --> 03:02:50,280
 I think that will go a long way to allowing the types of small lot uses that the residents

2437
03:02:50,280 --> 03:02:53,480
 have said that they want.

2438
03:02:53,480 --> 03:02:58,120
 I'm not seeing...

2439
03:02:58,120 --> 03:03:00,520
 Are we happy with what staff has said?

2440
03:03:00,520 --> 03:03:07,120
 I'll just say it sounds good that I'm happy with what you put together, but again, I'll

2441
03:03:07,120 --> 03:03:09,240
 defer to the community.

2442
03:03:09,240 --> 03:03:14,760
 I particularly like the eight-foot fence in between, like if there's an existing residence

2443
03:03:14,760 --> 03:03:21,720
 and then new retail commercials going in, eight feet, that's a nice-sized fence.

2444
03:03:21,720 --> 03:03:26,640
 And then having some vegetation and stuff so that the parking is not right up against

2445
03:03:26,640 --> 03:03:29,840
 the fence will be great.

2446
03:03:29,840 --> 03:03:31,280
 I just echo those sentiments.

2447
03:03:31,280 --> 03:03:34,960
 I feel like it's very balanced and very reasonable on it.

2448
03:03:34,960 --> 03:03:39,120
 I don't know, I think it looks great.

2449
03:03:39,120 --> 03:03:43,540
 I do have one redirection, not on the policy.

2450
03:03:43,540 --> 03:03:48,560
 If you can go back to your slide where it was showing the 50% live work and explaining

2451
03:03:48,560 --> 03:03:49,560
 that.

2452
03:03:49,560 --> 03:03:51,560
 Oh, this here?

2453
03:03:51,560 --> 03:03:56,680
 Yes, thank you.

2454
03:03:56,680 --> 03:04:01,880
 I don't blame anyone because this is way in the weeds, but I keep making a point of this

2455
03:04:01,880 --> 03:04:08,320
 and it keeps getting lost, so I'm just going to read out the actual verbiage in the building

2456
03:04:08,320 --> 03:04:14,680
 code and Fannie Mae's requirements and in our code, and this is where I see a contradiction.

2457
03:04:14,680 --> 03:04:23,080
 So in the building code, when it's defining live work dwellings and saying if you meet

2458
03:04:23,080 --> 03:04:29,520
 these conditions, you can build it under the IRC code, it says the non-residential area

2459
03:04:29,520 --> 03:04:39,200
 is permitted to be not more than 50% of the area of each live work unit.

2460
03:04:39,200 --> 03:04:44,480
 And then Fannie Mae, for financing reasons to make it so that you can actually build

2461
03:04:44,480 --> 03:04:52,760
 these things, quote, "Requires that no more than 35% of a condo or co-op project or 35%

2462
03:04:52,760 --> 03:04:59,040
 of the building in which the project is located be commercial space or allocated to mix use."

2463
03:04:59,040 --> 03:05:06,440
 So those two are saying the commercial has to be less than 50% or less than 35%.

2464
03:05:06,440 --> 03:05:12,160
 And then when I read in our code, the definition of work live dwelling says the residential

2465
03:05:12,160 --> 03:05:22,520
 component of a work live dwelling shall not exceed 50% of the total gross floor area.

2466
03:05:22,520 --> 03:05:24,640
 Do we understand how those are contradictory?

2467
03:05:24,640 --> 03:05:27,600
 So say the first part of the building code.

2468
03:05:27,600 --> 03:05:33,280
 So the builder code says the non-residential area is permitted to be not more than 50%

2469
03:05:33,280 --> 03:05:36,280
 of the area per live work dwelling unit.

2470
03:05:36,280 --> 03:05:37,280
 It is the non-residential piece.

2471
03:05:37,280 --> 03:05:38,280
 I see.

2472
03:05:38,280 --> 03:05:39,280
 Yes.

2473
03:05:39,280 --> 03:05:43,600
 And then our code says the residential component shall not exceed 50% of the total gross floor

2474
03:05:43,600 --> 03:05:44,600
 area.

2475
03:05:44,600 --> 03:05:45,600
 Yes.

2476
03:05:45,600 --> 03:05:46,600
 Okay.

2477
03:05:46,600 --> 03:05:48,960
 So do we understand now how those are contradictory?

2478
03:05:48,960 --> 03:05:49,960
 Yes.

2479
03:05:49,960 --> 03:05:57,500
 And I will say that the live work use has been interesting to work with because of those reasons

2480
03:05:57,500 --> 03:06:06,240
 where we have the requirements in our DDC and then we are ready to go and then we get

2481
03:06:06,240 --> 03:06:12,200
 to the building permit phase and realize that actually it's what we're requiring immediately

2482
03:06:12,200 --> 03:06:15,360
 kicks into the fire suppression system.

2483
03:06:15,360 --> 03:06:20,360
 So I mean, if that's maybe something that we need to take a look at to allow this use

2484
03:06:20,360 --> 03:06:24,800
 to be more useful within the city, then we can absolutely take that direction.

2485
03:06:24,800 --> 03:06:27,560
 I think it has implications beyond just Southeast Denton.

2486
03:06:27,560 --> 03:06:28,560
 Of course.

2487
03:06:28,560 --> 03:06:29,560
 Right?

2488
03:06:29,560 --> 03:06:36,400
 There are seven areas that may be appropriate for work live dwellings that if we just flip

2489
03:06:36,400 --> 03:06:42,240
 a greater than to less than sign, maybe if there's demand then there's financing and

2490
03:06:42,240 --> 03:06:43,240
 everybody's happy.

2491
03:06:43,240 --> 03:06:44,240
 Yeah.

2492
03:06:44,240 --> 03:06:47,400
 I know it's late and we all probably want to get out of here soon.

2493
03:06:47,400 --> 03:06:52,760
 But I would just add, I think the distinction for the work live dwellings in the DDC, those

2494
03:06:52,760 --> 03:06:57,000
 do have to be considered under the IBC, the International Building Code, as opposed to

2495
03:06:57,000 --> 03:06:58,840
 the International Residential Code.

2496
03:06:58,840 --> 03:07:00,880
 So we do understand there's that challenge.

2497
03:07:00,880 --> 03:07:06,400
 However, what the International Residential Code is describing is essentially what a home

2498
03:07:06,400 --> 03:07:07,920
 occupation is in the DDC.

2499
03:07:07,920 --> 03:07:13,520
 So we do allow that to occur just under a different title where the residential is the

2500
03:07:13,520 --> 03:07:16,880
 primary and the occupation is the secondary.

2501
03:07:16,880 --> 03:07:17,880
 Okay.

2502
03:07:17,880 --> 03:07:19,360
 And I threw that definition up here.

2503
03:07:19,360 --> 03:07:24,280
 I talked a little bit about it more in our community meeting to make sure that the residents

2504
03:07:24,280 --> 03:07:28,200
 understood that distinction, but I didn't go into detail here.

2505
03:07:28,200 --> 03:07:33,960
 That use is, we do have the opposite use permitted, like Haley was saying, where it's predominantly

2506
03:07:33,960 --> 03:07:36,360
 the residential piece as opposed to the other.

2507
03:07:36,360 --> 03:07:37,360
 Yeah.

2508
03:07:37,360 --> 03:07:38,360
 Yeah.

2509
03:07:38,360 --> 03:07:43,320
 I mean, I think when most people think of a live work thing, they're thinking of someone

2510
03:07:43,320 --> 03:07:46,320
 who lives there and has a business.

2511
03:07:46,320 --> 03:07:49,960
 And yes, I recognize we have the home occupation, but that has...

2512
03:07:49,960 --> 03:07:55,120
 It's really intended for non-public facing occupations.

2513
03:07:55,120 --> 03:07:59,880
 You can't have a sign announcing that there's a business there.

2514
03:07:59,880 --> 03:08:03,440
 There's all sorts of limitations like that.

2515
03:08:03,440 --> 03:08:04,440
 It's a broader discussion.

2516
03:08:04,440 --> 03:08:09,720
 I don't want to get off on the weeds, but I see that as a good intention by our code

2517
03:08:09,720 --> 03:08:16,040
 when we passed the 2019 code, where we didn't really fully align those things, at least

2518
03:08:16,040 --> 03:08:17,040
 in my mind.

2519
03:08:17,040 --> 03:08:18,040
 Right?

2520
03:08:18,040 --> 03:08:22,280
 So, I'll leave it at that.

2521
03:08:22,280 --> 03:08:23,280
 Any other...

2522
03:08:23,280 --> 03:08:24,280
 Okay.

2523
03:08:24,280 --> 03:08:26,880
 I really put everybody to sleep with that.

2524
03:08:26,880 --> 03:08:27,880
 I'm sorry.

2525
03:08:27,880 --> 03:08:28,880
 It was...

2526
03:08:28,880 --> 03:08:29,880
 I'm sure it was me.

2527
03:08:29,880 --> 03:08:30,880
 I'm so sorry.

2528
03:08:30,880 --> 03:08:31,880
 Up and up here.

2529
03:08:31,880 --> 03:08:32,880
 Sorry.

2530
03:08:32,880 --> 03:08:33,880
 Anything else, Mia?

2531
03:08:33,880 --> 03:08:34,880
 That's it for us.

2532
03:08:34,880 --> 03:08:41,400
 The last part of it was just open discussions and any general feedback on what we've presented.

2533
03:08:41,400 --> 03:08:42,720
 I did have just one question.

2534
03:08:42,720 --> 03:08:45,000
 Mia, do you feel like you got the feedback you're looking for?

2535
03:08:45,000 --> 03:08:48,400
 Because I feel like we're just kind of like, "Yeah."

2536
03:08:48,400 --> 03:08:49,400
 Yeah.

2537
03:08:49,400 --> 03:08:54,440
 I think this has been a challenging one to address because just building off of the base

2538
03:08:54,440 --> 03:09:01,080
 use of the live work dwelling unit and its challenges and then trying to apply that to

2539
03:09:01,080 --> 03:09:07,000
 what the community called for and then what, in practice, could actually happen and how

2540
03:09:07,000 --> 03:09:08,000
 much it would cost.

2541
03:09:08,000 --> 03:09:10,520
 So, marrying all those things has been a challenge.

2542
03:09:10,520 --> 03:09:18,000
 I'm hoping that I'm explaining it correctly and that's not why it's just quiet and supportive.

2543
03:09:18,000 --> 03:09:19,440
 But I think I got the feedback that I need.

2544
03:09:19,440 --> 03:09:26,200
 If we're all on board with it, then I think I'm okay.

2545
03:09:26,200 --> 03:09:27,880
 Okay.

2546
03:09:27,880 --> 03:09:31,760
 Thank you for all the work.

2547
03:09:31,760 --> 03:09:37,920
 And with that, I will conclude our extended work session with Planning and Zoning Commission

2548
03:09:37,920 --> 03:09:39,400
 at 8.26 p.m.

2549
03:09:39,400 --> 03:09:40,400
 - Thank you.