1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,600
 Okay. Good evening. It is Monday, April 14, 2025. It's 5.30 p.m. and this is the board of ethics meeting.

2
00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:19,160
 We do not have any presentations from members of the public, so we will move on to item two on our agenda.

3
00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:28,560
 Item A, BOE 25-017. Consider approval of meeting minutes for March 10, 2025.

4
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:36,400
 Are there any changes? Is there a discussion now? Or are you going to? Can I discuss now?

5
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:45,360
 I don't want to get out of order, so don't get me in trouble. I listened to the presentation twice, on video.

6
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:53,260
 And I was very moved about your comments. It was obvious to me that you had a lot of pain in you.

7
00:00:53,260 --> 00:01:01,560
 But I'm going to say some things, and please don't take it personal. And that's the first thing.

8
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:11,160
 You can't take it personal. Because the committee is protecting themselves, and they're always, they're people.

9
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:21,360
 And they're always going to protect themselves. So, you know, we say A, they say B, but the point being is they have an agenda, and we have an agenda.

10
00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,660
 Okay. So that's the first thing I want to tell you.

11
00:01:24,660 --> 00:01:27,860
 Do you have any recommendations for the minutes?

12
00:01:27,860 --> 00:01:30,660
 Do you have any recommendations for changes to the minutes?

13
00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:40,860
 Yeah, I do. So let me get through my list. I have a list. I just want to tell you what I think first, and then I have, I do have an agenda.

14
00:01:40,860 --> 00:01:48,160
 They want us to be the watchdog, but they don't want the dog to be too big. Okay.

15
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:55,960
 And for years following you, even though I wasn't on the committee, and I tried to get on the committee, and then I was asked to get on the committee,

16
00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:04,560
 and I was on too many committees, and I said no. I always felt like you guys were trying so hard to keep them under wraps so much.

17
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:10,260
 Okay. So this is my personal opinion, from my experience.

18
00:02:10,260 --> 00:02:18,860
 I do think, I could give you a story, but I won't about somebody holding on to somebody too tight, and I think that that's where they are with us.

19
00:02:18,860 --> 00:02:24,560
 They think that we're trying to hold on to their success too tight, and they want it the way they want it.

20
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:38,160
 But I will say to you all, to follow your conscience, if we know something to be right, then by then, we put the number out there, and we live by it.

21
00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:45,360
 And if they want to battle us, or they don't want us as members, they have a choice. But we've got to stick to our guns.

22
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:57,160
 Now, it doesn't matter if the number is 500, 5,000, or 50,000, it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

23
00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:57,660
 Huh?

24
00:02:57,660 --> 00:02:58,960
 Yeah, we're off topic.

25
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:06,160
 Oh, well, yeah, I asked you if I could do, talk to the, to the meeting, to the minutes, that's what I'm talking to you.

26
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,160
 Just trying to approve the minutes from last time.

27
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:15,460
 I, I, that's what I'm talking to you until we can then vote on it. Am I out of the way?

28
00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:22,160
 Um, yeah, I think you are. We just need to.

29
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,560
 Okay, well go ahead and go for the minutes, and then we'll have discussion.

30
00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:26,860
 At the very end.

31
00:03:26,860 --> 00:03:28,860
 At the end of this whole thing?

32
00:03:28,860 --> 00:03:29,860
 Right.

33
00:03:29,860 --> 00:03:31,860
 Of the whole meeting?

34
00:03:31,860 --> 00:03:41,160
 When we have that, when we talk about topics for future, we, that's when we can be a little bit more, we can talk about future agenda items at that time.

35
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:41,660
 Yeah.

36
00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:47,860
 Well, unless she's leading up to some recommendation to amend the minutes.

37
00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:53,160
 That's right. So I am leading up to that, okay.

38
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,660
 I don't think it's going to help this conversation to leave it at the end.

39
00:03:57,660 --> 00:04:03,460
 If I'm out of the line, then just let me know. But I, I just really am passionate about what I'm getting ready to say.

40
00:04:03,460 --> 00:04:06,960
 And it does lead up to the council, okay.

41
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:13,660
 That's not the, sorry, that's not this item. This item is, the item is, and there hasn't been a motion.

42
00:04:13,660 --> 00:04:17,060
 There hasn't been a motion yet, so there's really not anything to discuss.

43
00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:19,360
 Well, that's why I asked that we need a motion.

44
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:19,860
 So the motion.

45
00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:22,760
 The minutes. And she said go ahead.

46
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,760
 So would you move to accept the minutes as, as they have been given to us?

47
00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:28,460
 No.

48
00:04:28,460 --> 00:04:30,160
 Okay. What do you want to?

49
00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,260
 What would you change?

50
00:04:32,260 --> 00:04:36,360
 A lot of things. I'm talking about it right now.

51
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,960
 The minutes are what already happened in the last meeting.

52
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,660
 Well, I'm challenging the fact, I mean, I listen to the whole conversation.

53
00:04:44,660 --> 00:04:47,560
 And you were talking about things that weren't really on the minutes either.

54
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,960
 You were talking about trust, and people, and council, and you're frustrated with them.

55
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,360
 I didn't think that was part of the minutes either.

56
00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:07,660
 That was when we were talking about the agenda item of the, of what we had taken to the council.

57
00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:09,760
 Maybe it was on the top.

58
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,260
 Well, that doesn't matter. The point is, are you, this, I mean.

59
00:05:14,260 --> 00:05:21,260
 So, so unless you have some specific motion to change something on the minutes,

60
00:05:21,260 --> 00:05:25,960
 either a motion to approve as written, or.

61
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,560
 Okay, then I'm going to motion.

62
00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,260
 We were, in the minutes, we were discussing meeting with the council.

63
00:05:34,260 --> 00:05:36,360
 Can I address that?

64
00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,360
 Yeah, you, so you want to address what you want to add to the minutes that wasn't in there.

65
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,060
 Yes.

66
00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:47,660
 I want to make a motion that we ask the council what their ask is.

67
00:05:47,660 --> 00:05:54,260
 What do they want?

68
00:05:54,260 --> 00:05:55,760
 Is that legal for me to do?

69
00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,560
 That's a question for legal.

70
00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:58,560
 Legal?

71
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,460
 You can make that motion.

72
00:06:00,460 --> 00:06:07,060
 I mean, the question ultimately will be, is that reflective of what happened at the meeting?

73
00:06:07,060 --> 00:06:14,060
 Did this board do that? Did they make the ask at the meeting before?

74
00:06:14,060 --> 00:06:18,360
 That's what this item is. This item is, there were, there was a meeting that happened before.

75
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:19,960
 Things were discussed.

76
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,560
 Minutes were drafted by staff to reflect what happened in that meeting.

77
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:32,860
 Do we, do y'all want to, do y'all accept those minutes as being accurate of what happened in that meeting?

78
00:06:32,860 --> 00:06:37,860
 Or is there some mistake in those minutes that you need to correct?

79
00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:46,860
 Well, I'm trying to correct the idea that, that we were talking about meeting with council, communicating together.

80
00:06:46,860 --> 00:06:52,260
 And I was trying to address the fact that have we ever asked them what they want?

81
00:06:52,260 --> 00:06:56,160
 What is their ask? What is their business ask? What do they want from us?

82
00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:05,060
 I think I understand what you're, so you're wanting to make a motion that we ask them what's going on.

83
00:07:05,060 --> 00:07:06,960
 So that will come up in new business.

84
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,860
 So once we reach new business, then you'll make your motion.

85
00:07:09,860 --> 00:07:10,160
 Okay.

86
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:15,060
 Then we can debate it and that's when we can vote yes or no to, I think that's right.

87
00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:17,360
 I'll just shut down until I get there.

88
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:17,660
 No, I don't-

89
00:07:17,660 --> 00:07:18,960
 Just tell me when I'm there.

90
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,360
 No, I don't want you to shut down. I'm trying to-

91
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,060
 I want to hear what you have to say. It just, it has to be at the end or we're off topic.

92
00:07:26,060 --> 00:07:34,560
 So the city a few years ago decided not to have narrative minutes and just to have more of an overview.

93
00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:39,060
 And so the time that we can talk about this until we get there again.

94
00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:45,060
 I apologize, I just am a little bit tad frustrated with some things.

95
00:07:45,060 --> 00:07:47,060
 And I want to express my opinion.

96
00:07:47,060 --> 00:07:50,160
 So whenever I can do that, you let me do that.

97
00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,060
 Diane, we want to hear what you have to say.

98
00:07:52,060 --> 00:07:56,060
 Well, I- no, we're key players. It has nothing to do with you.

99
00:07:56,060 --> 00:08:02,060
 It has my frustration with what's some of the stuff that's going on.

100
00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:05,060
 We'll talk about that at the end underneath business.

101
00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:05,760
 Bam?

102
00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:06,760
 We'll talk about that.

103
00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,360
 Yeah, let me know when I can.

104
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:09,760
 New items and-

105
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:10,960
 Yeah, whatever.

106
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,160
 I'll make a motion. I'll make a motion to accept the minutes as you will present it.

107
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:16,060
 Okay, do I hear a second?

108
00:08:16,060 --> 00:08:17,460
 Second.

109
00:08:17,460 --> 00:08:23,660
 Okay, Andrea made the motion, Zeltner seconded.

110
00:08:23,660 --> 00:08:26,060
 Okay, all in favor?

111
00:08:26,060 --> 00:08:28,560
 Aye.

112
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,060
 So it's- are you extending, Diane?

113
00:08:31,060 --> 00:08:33,060
 I'm extending because I want to hear.

114
00:08:33,060 --> 00:08:38,960
 That's fine, I'll- that's fair.

115
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,160
 Okay, it passes.

116
00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,560
 So the minutes stand as written.

117
00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:48,560
 So item B is DOE 25-016.

118
00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:56,760
 Receive a report, hold a discussion, and give staff direction regarding ex parte communication as it relates to the city of Denton.

119
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:03,660
 Code of Ordinances, Chapter 2, Article 11, Ethics.

120
00:09:03,660 --> 00:09:13,360
 All right, so this discussion was approved as part of a previous feature agenda items item.

121
00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:21,460
 And so the information from the current ethics ordinance is presented on the screen regarding ex parte communications.

122
00:09:21,460 --> 00:09:29,260
 Just very briefly, that is about essentially one party communicating with either the board of ethics,

123
00:09:29,260 --> 00:09:34,560
 or the board of ethics communicating to somebody outside of the board about a pending complaint.

124
00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:40,360
 So that's the definition of the current ex parte communications.

125
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:47,360
 There's more detail, of course, on the screen, but I'll let y'all discuss anything that you would like to as far as this.

126
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:52,560
 As long as it's within the scope of the item.

127
00:09:52,560 --> 00:10:01,660
 My first thing, I would like to change the word "pendency" or "during the pendency,"

128
00:10:01,660 --> 00:10:05,860
 which of course means ongoing or not concluded.

129
00:10:05,860 --> 00:10:16,260
 I would say after a complaint has been filed and these are heard by the board or acted on by the board, whatever language,

130
00:10:16,260 --> 00:10:26,160
 I just want to make it super clear because "pendency" is a legal term and people are going to have to follow this code are not lawyers.

131
00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,360
 So what do you guys think?

132
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:44,860
 Then I would like to ask the lawyers in the room if there's a specific meaning attached to "pendency" in the realm of the law.

133
00:10:44,860 --> 00:10:50,060
 I looked it up today and it means ongoing or not concluded.

134
00:10:50,060 --> 00:10:56,260
 And I do understand the dictionary definition, but sometimes when we're talking specific terms, right,

135
00:10:56,260 --> 00:11:05,460
 they have, there's a specific connotation that goes along with that term depending on what field of expertise we're talking about.

136
00:11:05,460 --> 00:11:07,160
 So that's the only reason.

137
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,460
 And what about, instead of saying "during the pendency," just say "pending."

138
00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:17,160
 Just the word "pending," would that be more clear?

139
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,960
 Yeah, that would be clear.

140
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,360
 Everybody understands that.

141
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,260
 You hear that "pending" word more often than "pendency."

142
00:11:27,260 --> 00:11:33,260
 So after a complaint has been filed and is pending before the Board of Ethics.

143
00:11:33,260 --> 00:11:42,960
 Yeah, I think that would be a lot more clear.

144
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:55,760
 I'm concerned that if your concern is that "pendency" is not clear when the official date that it's no longer pending or in the pendency,

145
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,760
 that just changing it to say "enduring" and "while it's pending" does not necessarily clear it.

146
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,160
 Once it's been heard and acted on, how do you want to say that?

147
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:12,360
 After a complaint has been filed and until the complaint has been resolved by the Board of Ethics or something like that,

148
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,460
 because then you skip the "pendency."

149
00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:17,360
 I would agree.

150
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:24,660
 If we're changing it, then let's change it to something that is definitely more descriptive.

151
00:12:24,660 --> 00:12:38,260
 And what actually produces the conclusion of that matter.

152
00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:45,660
 So any discussion on this?

153
00:12:45,660 --> 00:12:53,660
 I guess we don't need to vote on this because it'll come back next month and we'll look at it at that point.

154
00:12:53,660 --> 00:13:00,160
 Yeah, so I guess you can give direction for me to simply create a proposal, ultimately.

155
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:06,460
 So including red lines to change it to say something along the lines of what you propose.

156
00:13:06,460 --> 00:13:09,260
 It seems like there's consensus for that.

157
00:13:09,260 --> 00:13:17,160
 The other thing that I would suggest, item two, why is it just the Board of Ethics?

158
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:24,760
 Why isn't it also PNZ and whatever other groups are so much of it?

159
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,960
 Because the Board of Ethics is acting in place of the judge or the jury, essentially.

160
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:38,860
 And so the intention is that the Board should not be communicating on only one side about a pending ethics complaint.

161
00:13:38,860 --> 00:13:51,460
 Could we add a third area because those other groups also make decisions that have pretty serious ramifications?

162
00:13:51,460 --> 00:14:01,160
 I don't know that, because this is talking about specifically it's a violation to have ex parte communications when an ethics complaint is occurring.

163
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:10,660
 And those other boards do not have any authority over ethics complaints.

164
00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:19,060
 Their decision-making bodies in other respects, some of them.

165
00:14:19,060 --> 00:14:22,860
 And they may have a similar rule in those capacities.

166
00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:27,660
 We would have to make a decision.

167
00:14:27,660 --> 00:14:38,060
 And in theory, if your concern is improper influence, the ethics ordinance covers that in the complex of interest section.

168
00:14:38,060 --> 00:14:52,560
 So this is just really speaking to during an ethics complaint, trying to cover the Board of Ethics as the body acting in a judicial judge/jury capacity.

169
00:14:52,560 --> 00:15:00,460
 And then the complainant and the respondent who are also involved in that complaint and their representation.

170
00:15:08,060 --> 00:15:22,860
 Any other suggestions?

171
00:15:22,860 --> 00:15:27,860
 I know that you wanted to discuss this, so I just want to make sure we got any concerns.

172
00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:35,860
 Well, I was concerned that we would think back about the three of us being on that complaint.

173
00:15:35,860 --> 00:15:46,660
 I really felt strongly that we should have been in closed doors for us discussing everything and going through things before we took our laundry and put it out here.

174
00:15:46,660 --> 00:15:50,260
 We didn't even know if we'd agreed to the complaint or not agree to the complaint.

175
00:15:50,260 --> 00:15:55,860
 And yet, you know, we have them back behind us, you know, not that I personally cared.

176
00:15:55,860 --> 00:16:03,360
 But the point is, I just think there's some times that we have to, we have to have closed sessions and we have to talk amongst ourselves.

177
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:11,060
 And the other thing I didn't understand during that time is we had three people on the committee, but our whole board was here.

178
00:16:11,060 --> 00:16:16,060
 And I wondered what was the significance of the three committee when the whole board was here.

179
00:16:16,060 --> 00:16:20,760
 Why weren't we all involved? You know, because it was open door.

180
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:29,760
 And I really felt strongly that most people always have closed door communication before they get to the main, main deal.

181
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:37,560
 So our research about if a preliminary panel can be in closed session is the next item.

182
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:50,260
 I apologize. And then and just so that logistically, the panel was scheduled before the regular meeting because it's easier for staff to do it that way for me.

183
00:16:50,260 --> 00:17:00,260
 That's easier for me to schedule it before because it's only one night, but they don't have to be scheduled on the same night.

184
00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:13,260
 I'm used to different committees, you know, federal committees and state committees where they just don't allow the ethics committee or anybody to discuss the business.

185
00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:15,260
 Why don't we hold that until the next item?

186
00:17:15,260 --> 00:17:21,260
 Yeah, well, I was thinking I was directing it to this. I was agreeing.

187
00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:23,260
 I apologize, yeah.

188
00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:29,260
 The ex parte communication is not about what occurs during, it is about what occurs outside of meetings.

189
00:17:29,260 --> 00:17:30,260
 Right.

190
00:17:30,260 --> 00:17:33,260
 Yeah.

191
00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:41,260
 Are there any other suggestions anybody has about ex parte?

192
00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:50,260
 So is everybody comfortable moving on because we'll get to look at it again next month.

193
00:17:50,260 --> 00:17:55,260
 So I see head nods, so we're moving on.

194
00:17:55,260 --> 00:18:03,260
 Item C.

195
00:18:03,260 --> 00:18:14,260
 VOE 25-018, receive a report, hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding future meeting topics.

196
00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:15,260
 Oh, no, we're on.

197
00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:17,260
 Oh, oh.

198
00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:19,260
 Sounds positive, but if you want to, you could.

199
00:18:19,260 --> 00:18:23,260
 We'll skip to item D and then we'll come back and get C.

200
00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:34,260
 So item D is VOE 25-019, receive a report, hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding the process for holding preliminary assessment panels

201
00:18:34,260 --> 00:18:44,260
 for the City of Denton Court of Audiences, Chapter 2, Article 11 as ethics.

202
00:18:44,260 --> 00:18:47,260
 So this is about the preliminary panel.

203
00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:52,260
 So we did, I discussed this with the city attorney's office.

204
00:18:52,260 --> 00:19:00,260
 The Open Meetings Act does permit a governing body to meet in closed session to deliberate the employment, I'm sorry,

205
00:19:00,260 --> 00:19:08,260
 employment evaluation, et cetera, of a public officer or employee.

206
00:19:08,260 --> 00:19:15,260
 Most people covered under the ethics ordinance are not employees, but some of them are public officers.

207
00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:29,260
 So there might be some limitations to the way that the board could keep a complaint confidential based on those things.

208
00:19:29,260 --> 00:19:38,260
 So even if the complaint was not publicly posted, it would still be open to subject, it would be subject to open records requests.

209
00:19:38,260 --> 00:19:47,260
 We could, if we had a preliminary assessment panel, somebody could request, hey, I want to see the complaint, even if it was not just made publicly available.

210
00:19:47,260 --> 00:19:52,260
 And we don't believe that there is an exception that would prevent us from having to provide that.

211
00:19:52,260 --> 00:19:56,260
 That's my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, Scott.

212
00:19:56,260 --> 00:19:57,260
 You're right.

213
00:19:57,260 --> 00:20:06,260
 Okay, and then the preliminary assessment panel could potentially have discussions in closed meeting, but they would have to take any action in open meeting.

214
00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:13,260
 You could have your discussion, but then you'd have to come out and be an open meeting, basically, and then say yes or no, it's actionable or baseless.

215
00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:15,260
 That's important.

216
00:20:15,260 --> 00:20:25,260
 Yeah, and then, but there is one caveat, like I said, not all people subject to the ethics ordinance are considered public officials or public officers.

217
00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:35,260
 So some city officials, you would be able to have that discussion in closed session, and some city officials, it doesn't seem like you would be able to.

218
00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:38,260
 So that might create a dichotomy.

219
00:20:38,260 --> 00:20:50,260
 We have not had very many complaints submitted against people who would probably not, who wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to do that, but it's always possible.

220
00:20:50,260 --> 00:20:53,260
 Does that answer some of the other questions?

221
00:20:53,260 --> 00:21:06,260
 So are you saying we can go into closed session, and then after closed session, we can come out and open it up to, I mean, that's what most meetings do.

222
00:21:06,260 --> 00:21:13,260
 I mean, universities or anybody else, they have a closed session to discuss the staff or whatever the issue is.

223
00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:26,260
 And so I really felt like it would be beneficial to us that day to have that, and then, you know, to me, after that's discussed, you know, I'm all for opening it up.

224
00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:28,260
 I mean, I have no problem with that.

225
00:21:28,260 --> 00:21:44,260
 So yeah, so our research indicates that we could do that likely for the four appointed city officials who are actually employees in the city. So we, the municipal judge, the city manager, and the city attorney.

226
00:21:44,260 --> 00:21:47,260
 If a complaint was submitted against them, yes, you could have a closed session.

227
00:21:47,260 --> 00:21:51,260
 It's likely that city council members, you could have a closed session.

228
00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:55,260
 It's likely that P&Z, you could have a closed session.

229
00:21:55,260 --> 00:22:07,260
 I believe the historic landmark committee, but there might be some boards who are members of a board who are subject to the ordinance where you would not be able to, because they're not considered a public officer.

230
00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:14,260
 I think one that we talked about maybe is public utilities board, but I don't know for sure.

231
00:22:14,260 --> 00:22:17,260
 We're just concerned that there might be issues for all.

232
00:22:17,260 --> 00:22:23,260
 We're not certain that every body subject to the ordinance, you could do that for them.

233
00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:26,260
 I just want to be clear about that.

234
00:22:26,260 --> 00:22:31,260
 It's not saying you can't do it, it's just about raising that as an issue.

235
00:22:31,260 --> 00:22:36,260
 I will say I came to the very first complaint, and that's how they did it.

236
00:22:36,260 --> 00:22:39,260
 They asked everybody to leave the room, and they had the discussion.

237
00:22:39,260 --> 00:22:45,260
 They brought everybody back in, and each person on the board said, this is why I made this decision.

238
00:22:45,260 --> 00:22:50,260
 I did not like it. It was, it didn't feel very transparent.

239
00:22:50,260 --> 00:22:55,260
 I had really no idea what they were hinting their decisions on.

240
00:22:55,260 --> 00:23:04,260
 I think there's a fine line between that and transparency, which is also an ethical concept.

241
00:23:04,260 --> 00:23:11,260
 But we're talking about somebody that we don't even know has been found guilty.

242
00:23:11,260 --> 00:23:24,260
 In other words, we're talking about somebody's life in front of people that we haven't even had a chance to discuss some of the things that are going on so that we can think through it.

243
00:23:24,260 --> 00:23:29,260
 We haven't had a chance to even get together until the meeting.

244
00:23:29,260 --> 00:23:32,260
 I'm all for transparency. I am.

245
00:23:32,260 --> 00:23:39,260
 I want people to know, but there's got to be a time that this committee can talk privately.

246
00:23:39,260 --> 00:23:44,260
 And then, you know, let everybody know what we said, but at least we can think.

247
00:23:44,260 --> 00:23:49,260
 You know, I might have been asked Ken something that I didn't think about, you know.

248
00:23:49,260 --> 00:23:54,260
 I thought, oh man, I didn't realize. I asked her, oh, you know, you guys are right on that.

249
00:23:54,260 --> 00:23:58,260
 Maybe I need to maybe adjust what I'm saying here.

250
00:23:58,260 --> 00:24:03,260
 But personally, I believe that that's the benefit of an open session.

251
00:24:03,260 --> 00:24:11,260
 Because that is exactly what will create understanding in the people how people got to.

252
00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:19,260
 I have no problem. I have done this many times where I said I have changed my mind based on the discussion that we've had.

253
00:24:19,260 --> 00:24:30,260
 Because the things that other members have brought to the topic have, you know, broadened my view of it and have, you know, really led me to change my mind.

254
00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:38,260
 And I think that is the power of having people watch how we come to a conclusion.

255
00:24:38,260 --> 00:24:42,260
 I think it's more uncomfortable for the board, for sure.

256
00:24:42,260 --> 00:24:48,260
 It is. You're absolutely right. Because you're putting yourself out there more, right?

257
00:24:48,260 --> 00:24:54,260
 Is this for clarity only or has there been a situation that's led to this question?

258
00:24:54,260 --> 00:25:00,260
 Well, the other day, well, the first meeting we were at, the three of us were picked.

259
00:25:00,260 --> 00:25:13,260
 And I really, because I have never, ever been on any board or any big time board that we didn't have closed meetings before we went into, you know, into the situation.

260
00:25:13,260 --> 00:25:20,260
 So when I walked in, I asked them, I said, is it this meeting closed?

261
00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:24,260
 And I mean, because I was thinking the three of us were going to discuss things.

262
00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:38,260
 And he said, no, it's an open meeting. And well, here were the people right behind us discussing it with their buddies within ear length of me.

263
00:25:38,260 --> 00:25:44,260
 And I'm thinking this is not right. I'm thinking this is not right at all.

264
00:25:44,260 --> 00:25:57,260
 And it made me feel very uncomfortable because I wasn't used to it. Because I, you know, I, and I look after, I always look after when you guys tell me something.

265
00:25:57,260 --> 00:26:02,260
 Baker, my nickname is Baker, are you wrong? Do you think you're wrong about this? Blah, blah, blah.

266
00:26:02,260 --> 00:26:07,260
 And I couldn't find anything that people didn't understand closed meetings.

267
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:18,260
 You know, and then they're over, the meeting's over, we told our stuff, they're out, they're right here, they're right here talking about everything, the meeting and how we discussed it.

268
00:26:18,260 --> 00:26:29,260
 It just went all over me. It did. I just, that wasn't, that wasn't clarification. That was control.

269
00:26:29,260 --> 00:26:39,260
 He was trying to control the situation. And he did. That's how I felt about it.

270
00:26:39,260 --> 00:27:04,260
 I was aware as the one who picked that panel, I wanted the people who knew the least about what had gone on before, just for fairness. And I know that that threw all of you under the bus. But I think you made a very good decision.

271
00:27:04,260 --> 00:27:10,260
 Then let me ask you this, Diana. Did you feel pressure?

272
00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:21,260
 Me, I never feel pressure. But I think most people do. Yes ma'am. I think it's an intimidation factor. But me, I don't give a damn.

273
00:27:21,260 --> 00:27:39,260
 You know, I don't mean to be ugly, but I don't need this. I love this committee. And I'm going to love you guys. And I'm going to support you. But for me, not. But for me as an ethical human being, absolutely. It was intimidating.

274
00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:42,260
 Pressure from who, the public or the rest of this board?

275
00:27:42,260 --> 00:27:52,260
 Oh, not from this board. The people right here talking about how we wrote it and what's going on and what we're doing. And they didn't get out of the room.

276
00:27:52,260 --> 00:28:13,260
 Scott, and this is a legal thing, would us holding an open, since we are acting on the city's behalf, holding an open meeting regarding a complaint against another city employee violate any type of an employment law?

277
00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:16,260
 City employees have their own code of ethics.

278
00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:29,260
 Well, so talking about the employees that are subject to this code, what y'all are discussing is the subject of an ethics complaint.

279
00:28:29,260 --> 00:28:45,260
 So if it were a, I mean, there should never be a situation where y'all would be discussing an HR matter in this meeting. It's just going to be did the person violate this code of ordinances? So that situation shouldn't arise.

280
00:28:45,260 --> 00:29:12,260
 And I love the, I love the code that the city employees have. I think it's very well written. It's extremely clear. I really tried hard to figure out how we could take it on, but there's too much stuff in it that was just specifically for employees. So it wasn't practical. Yeah, they have their own stuff and under that, I think things have gotten a lot better in the city.

281
00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:25,260
 Well, what kind of prompted the question was we could hold an executive session to discuss anything regarding employment.

282
00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:39,260
 Well, in employment, the way that this would work is somebody has filed a complaint against an employee violation, which would then could affect employment, which is what would allow us to do the executive session.

283
00:29:39,260 --> 00:29:48,260
 But an employee, unless it's those four employees that Madison mentioned, that would be handled by the, I guess, the city manager.

284
00:29:48,260 --> 00:30:11,260
 Well, we could, we should probably narrow this excerpt from the statute because the only word in there think that is relevant to y'all is discipline. Because you're not, y'all don't have the power to make employment decisions. You don't have the power to make an appointment.

285
00:30:11,260 --> 00:30:31,260
 Maybe, I guess, you can recommend withdrawal of a person on the board, but even that has to be approved by city council. So the only thing you can do is discipline a public officer and discipline big scare quotes, you know, on that one too.

286
00:30:31,260 --> 00:30:45,260
 So that's really all we're talking about.

287
00:30:45,260 --> 00:31:04,260
 Another question I have for you, who are you trying to protect? She asked me who I'm trying to protect. I'm going to ask you, who are you trying to protect in this scenario? Are you trying to protect the, well, let me, let you answer that question.

288
00:31:04,260 --> 00:31:15,260
 Don't put it in your mouth. Who are you trying to protect by not having a closed meeting in the early parts of this? I'm not saying not open it to the people, but.

289
00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:22,260
 The citizens right to a transparent proceeding. They're going to have it right after the closed meeting.

290
00:31:22,260 --> 00:31:31,260
 Bring that out. It did not feel that way in that one hearing that I attended. It did not feel that way at all.

291
00:31:31,260 --> 00:31:41,260
 I think we get in trouble because we're trying so hard to be. This is going to sound bad, but we're trying so hard to make it so right all the time.

292
00:31:41,260 --> 00:32:03,260
 And it just, I'd rather have our ducks in a row, our understanding of what's going on before we present it to the public as we should. But everything that comes out of our mouth early, where does it go? It goes to the paper.

293
00:32:03,260 --> 00:32:15,260
 We don't even have our act together. It goes to the paper. It goes to the TV. It goes to the radio. Yet we have not had even a together vision of where that committee is going.

294
00:32:15,260 --> 00:32:27,260
 So we're not protecting ourselves. We're not in any control of that. And so that's how rumors start. That's how falsehood starts. And that's what I'm pushing for.

295
00:32:27,260 --> 00:32:45,260
 I'm not pushing against the open law act. I'm pushing for us to have the same message. As we walk out, even if it's two to one or one to three, at least we have a message and we can identify why we said that.

296
00:32:45,260 --> 00:33:04,260
 And whatever they get, they get. It was ugly back here. I was really not happy back then. Because I just wasn't used to it. It was just like you're not comfortable with this.

297
00:33:04,260 --> 00:33:19,260
 I was like, really? We're in here talking about all this stuff. And we're a committee, an ethics committee, and everybody has control. It seems well done for us.

298
00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:42,260
 Is there a way to make sure that that kind of talk does not happen in your shot of the committee? Can people in the audience need to be quiet? Not in a private conversation during the hearing?

299
00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:52,260
 Well, yeah. I think that the chair has the right to tell them that they can't be making this comment. Or that they need to be quiet or leave.

300
00:33:52,260 --> 00:33:55,260
 Right. But after the meeting is over, the chair doesn't have to.

301
00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:57,260
 They can say anything they want to.

302
00:33:57,260 --> 00:34:09,260
 But yes, during the meeting, whoever is the chair of the panel can pass some authority over. You can't say that or please be quiet.

303
00:34:09,260 --> 00:34:18,260
 Why do you think -- oh, this is one more question. I'll be quiet. I'm Yankee, so you guys don't have to forgive me. Okay? I'm from New Jersey.

304
00:34:18,260 --> 00:34:25,260
 Why do you think this person had all their buddies in here?

305
00:34:25,260 --> 00:34:29,260
 I can't imagine.

306
00:34:29,260 --> 00:34:39,260
 To influence? Or just because they love that person and they just wanted to be in here and have a chit chat with them?

307
00:34:39,260 --> 00:34:54,260
 I think that's always going to happen. I know in that one, there must have been 30 people watching this hearing, and I would say it was awful being outside the room because the factions were, you know --

308
00:34:54,260 --> 00:35:08,260
 I'm just saying. Again, I'm saying, I just can't comprehend you guys not wanting a short, closed meeting before you open it to the public.

309
00:35:08,260 --> 00:35:21,260
 And the other thing, and this is another thing, is you have three people on the committee, and I kept thinking, why are three people on the committee? They're sitting after -- they're sitting right here.

310
00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:25,260
 That is just part of the process.

311
00:35:25,260 --> 00:35:27,260
 I'm just saying, why not have all of us?

312
00:35:27,260 --> 00:35:36,260
 It was a preliminary panel, and if it had gone forward, it wouldn't have been the full board. So I know that put all of you in a tough space.

313
00:35:36,260 --> 00:35:41,260
 Kenneth, I want to hear from you because you were here. I mean, what was your experience?

314
00:35:41,260 --> 00:35:53,260
 Well, I've got to apologize to Member Baker for not controlling them as the chair. I don't intimidate easy, so --

315
00:35:53,260 --> 00:35:55,260
 You're a lawyer.

316
00:35:55,260 --> 00:36:05,260
 Yeah, lawyer and former Marine, so it takes quite a bit to intimidate. And so that's my fault for not feeling the intimidation.

317
00:36:05,260 --> 00:36:15,260
 I didn't feel any pressure for you. It's more of a business thing for me. Everything I do in here is business.

318
00:36:15,260 --> 00:36:22,260
 I think those things are going to happen. And I will say, that said, you guys made a very good decision.

319
00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:34,260
 I'm happy with how it came out. I felt it was really important to have it hit you cold and not have anybody be able to say that you knew too much about it.

320
00:36:34,260 --> 00:36:38,260
 And I know, I knew I was putting you in a rough position, but --

321
00:36:38,260 --> 00:36:45,260
 But I think it was a very productive conversation. I think it was a very productive and collaborative decision. I personally --

322
00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:59,260
 We had one person who knew some of the background, but, you know, so I don't know any way around it.

323
00:36:59,260 --> 00:37:08,260
 I will say, after that hearing I attended, I think two panelists quit. I know one of them for sure did, so --

324
00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:09,260
 What?

325
00:37:09,260 --> 00:37:12,260
 Do we have a moat so it's on record?

326
00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:14,260
 So who quit?

327
00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:16,260
 I don't even remember.

328
00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:17,260
 Are you a board of ethics?

329
00:37:17,260 --> 00:37:18,260
 Yeah.

330
00:37:18,260 --> 00:37:19,260
 Who?

331
00:37:19,260 --> 00:37:24,260
 I never saw them again, let me just say that. But this was several years ago.

332
00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:26,260
 Oh, you're talking at a different time.

333
00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:29,260
 Yeah, this was several years ago.

334
00:37:29,260 --> 00:37:30,260
 I was like, wait, hold on, hold on.

335
00:37:30,260 --> 00:37:32,260
 Yeah, that's not quite --

336
00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:43,260
 No, I do think that that was equally awful for those board members. I do, no, I never saw them again, because I've watched this board.

337
00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:54,260
 So the point of order is whoever's in charge of running the panel should keep the people to not be talking during the discussion.

338
00:37:54,260 --> 00:38:00,260
 And then when the pipe down, you know, once the meeting's over, I would just say exit as quickly as possible.

339
00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:01,260
 Right.

340
00:38:01,260 --> 00:38:02,260
 You know?

341
00:38:02,260 --> 00:38:03,260
 Yeah, I know.

342
00:38:03,260 --> 00:38:06,260
 Why can't you kill them first, well, and then --

343
00:38:06,260 --> 00:38:10,260
 I don't understand why you can't tell them in a second.

344
00:38:10,260 --> 00:38:18,260
 You have control of your committee. And they're coming into your private world, and they need to be quiet.

345
00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:20,260
 It's not private.

346
00:38:20,260 --> 00:38:28,260
 So need and what's something that we can enforce are two different things, you know?

347
00:38:28,260 --> 00:38:35,260
 And that is -- the city council meetings of late have been fairly chaotic.

348
00:38:35,260 --> 00:38:39,260
 I would say the last time we came up, that was actually the best.

349
00:38:39,260 --> 00:38:43,260
 And then there were still a lot of really pretty needs there.

350
00:38:43,260 --> 00:38:46,260
 You know, like, do they know how to read?

351
00:38:46,260 --> 00:38:50,260
 That was a not nice comment.

352
00:38:50,260 --> 00:38:58,260
 You know, it's just how things are right now.

353
00:38:58,260 --> 00:39:02,260
 And I -- not just in this city, but in a lot of places.

354
00:39:02,260 --> 00:39:13,260
 You know, it's -- I really wish people could go learn how to debate, because in debate you argue very difficult points,

355
00:39:13,260 --> 00:39:20,260
 and you -- but you're always civil, and that's the biggest thing that gets thrown at you if you're in debate.

356
00:39:20,260 --> 00:39:27,260
 But that's not how politics is done.

357
00:39:27,260 --> 00:39:28,260
 I can't change that.

358
00:39:28,260 --> 00:39:30,260
 Well, I'll be quiet.

359
00:39:30,260 --> 00:39:34,260
 But I don't buy that's how politics is today.

360
00:39:34,260 --> 00:39:39,260
 I mean, I'm sorry, but I'm not buying into that crap.

361
00:39:39,260 --> 00:39:44,260
 It's part of my language, whoever's listening. You know, I'm just not.

362
00:39:44,260 --> 00:39:46,260
 People can be civil.

363
00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:47,260
 I'm with you.

364
00:39:47,260 --> 00:39:49,260
 And people can be kind.

365
00:39:49,260 --> 00:39:50,260
 Yeah.

366
00:39:50,260 --> 00:39:52,260
 And people can be respectful.

367
00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:57,260
 And if they can't be, they have no business where they are.

368
00:39:57,260 --> 00:40:07,260
 So they knew me when they put me on this committee, and I would fight for what I believed in, and I'm fighting for this.

369
00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:09,260
 I vote for that.

370
00:40:09,260 --> 00:40:12,260
 I don't know if it's something that we vote on.

371
00:40:12,260 --> 00:40:16,260
 I'm going to be outlawed in five and one, probably, but the point being is I'd like to be on record.

372
00:40:16,260 --> 00:40:18,260
 You are allowed to make a motion.

373
00:40:18,260 --> 00:40:19,260
 Sir?

374
00:40:19,260 --> 00:40:23,260
 You can make a motion, and if it gets seconded, then there will be a vote.

375
00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:26,260
 Okay. I motion -- what am I motioning?

376
00:40:26,260 --> 00:40:34,260
 I'm motioning that we have closed meetings prior to our open public meeting on complaints.

377
00:40:34,260 --> 00:40:36,260
 Can I say it like that?

378
00:40:36,260 --> 00:40:37,260
 Yeah, you get that.

379
00:40:37,260 --> 00:40:38,260
 One more time.

380
00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:42,260
 Well, if she moves that we have closed meetings --

381
00:40:42,260 --> 00:40:44,260
 We have a closed meeting with the --

382
00:40:44,260 --> 00:40:46,260
 Before we hear the complaint.

383
00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:48,260
 During the preliminary assessment.

384
00:40:48,260 --> 00:40:52,260
 Right. And before we open the open meeting.

385
00:40:52,260 --> 00:40:53,260
 Right.

386
00:40:53,260 --> 00:40:57,260
 Okay. So the motion is on the table. Is there a second?

387
00:40:57,260 --> 00:40:59,260
 Can we vote on this?

388
00:40:59,260 --> 00:41:00,260
 Preliminary only?

389
00:41:00,260 --> 00:41:03,260
 Yes. Just preliminary only.

390
00:41:03,260 --> 00:41:04,260
 Okay.

391
00:41:04,260 --> 00:41:05,260
 To the extent that we are able to.

392
00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:11,260
 Yeah, I think, yeah, there's going to be some major restrictions on, you know,

393
00:41:11,260 --> 00:41:20,260
 because this will probably come back as a draft of a change to the ordinance and rule of procedure.

394
00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:29,260
 So I think, just to clarify, that the -- effectively, what your motion will be is a motion to direct, Matt,

395
00:41:29,260 --> 00:41:39,260
 to draft changes to the rules of procedure and that code of ordinances to allow preliminary hearings to occur at closed session.

396
00:41:39,260 --> 00:41:40,260
 Is it?

397
00:41:40,260 --> 00:41:41,260
 That's my answer.

398
00:41:41,260 --> 00:41:42,260
 Does that sound --

399
00:41:42,260 --> 00:41:43,260
 Does that sound like --

400
00:41:43,260 --> 00:41:44,260
 Appropriate?

401
00:41:44,260 --> 00:41:45,260
 Perfect.

402
00:41:45,260 --> 00:41:48,260
 Okay. Is there a second in this motion?

403
00:41:48,260 --> 00:41:50,260
 I'll second that.

404
00:41:50,260 --> 00:41:57,260
 Can it be seconded? So now we have discussion.

405
00:41:57,260 --> 00:42:03,260
 It seems like it's already -- number two says we can't have a closed session in certain circumstances.

406
00:42:03,260 --> 00:42:05,260
 It's already listed as a possibility.

407
00:42:05,260 --> 00:42:15,260
 Well, so this is a description of the Texas Open Meetings Act, which that doesn't govern -- I mean, that is the big umbrella.

408
00:42:15,260 --> 00:42:17,260
 What are we allowed to allow?

409
00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:23,260
 But our code of ordinances doesn't specifically allow closed meetings.

410
00:42:23,260 --> 00:42:30,260
 This slide is really just saying here are the boundaries of what y'all can change the ordinance to be.

411
00:42:30,260 --> 00:42:32,260
 That's not -- that doesn't reflect what the ordinance is now.

412
00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:40,260
 Okay.

413
00:42:40,260 --> 00:42:45,260
 David, I have a card for you.

414
00:42:45,260 --> 00:42:47,260
 Well, no, I'm still processing.

415
00:42:47,260 --> 00:42:52,260
 I kind of agree with where we're going with that second there.

416
00:42:52,260 --> 00:43:00,260
 So I'm okay.

417
00:43:00,260 --> 00:43:08,260
 But is the motion saying that we always have to have a closed meeting before we have an open meeting on the preliminary?

418
00:43:08,260 --> 00:43:09,260
 Could.

419
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:12,260
 Or is it just could, like where it says in number two?

420
00:43:12,260 --> 00:43:13,260
 No.

421
00:43:13,260 --> 00:43:17,260
 I'm concerned about the complaints, you know?

422
00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:22,260
 Okay.

423
00:43:22,260 --> 00:43:34,260
 So the motion, if it was approved, what would occur is I would work with Scott to draft changes, red lines, like you sent to council the other day, and present those to y'all.

424
00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:51,260
 And I clarify what the process would look like, right? So that for preliminary assessments, to the extent possible, because there might be some city officials that we are not allowed to have closed meetings, a closed meeting could occur during the preliminary assessment.

425
00:43:51,260 --> 00:43:55,260
 So that would -- basically we would post for the -- we would post the meeting on the agenda.

426
00:43:55,260 --> 00:43:58,260
 There would be an item that was in closed session.

427
00:43:58,260 --> 00:44:04,260
 And then there would be an item -- there would also be an open session item, basically.

428
00:44:04,260 --> 00:44:08,260
 And that way, y'all could move into closed if you wanted to or not.

429
00:44:08,260 --> 00:44:10,260
 Does that make sense?

430
00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:12,260
 That's how it would likely work.

431
00:44:12,260 --> 00:44:15,260
 But we would have to get it vetted through the city attorney's office.

432
00:44:15,260 --> 00:44:21,260
 And then ultimately, that change would have to go to the council before it's implemented, and they would have to adopt it.

433
00:44:21,260 --> 00:44:28,260
 So that's the process we're looking at. That's the process we do for all of our -- any amendments to the code that we're looking at.

434
00:44:28,260 --> 00:44:33,260
 So does that clarify a little better for everybody what we're voting on right now?

435
00:44:33,260 --> 00:44:37,260
 Is that kind of kicking off that process to make that change happen?

436
00:44:37,260 --> 00:44:54,260
 I will say that while I totally and completely understand what Titan is saying, I think if there had been a closed session, it would have opened the board up to problems.

437
00:44:54,260 --> 00:44:59,260
 You know, I guess I believe that you guys were being unfair.

438
00:44:59,260 --> 00:45:03,260
 What kind of -- can you answer what kind of problem?

439
00:45:03,260 --> 00:45:07,260
 Like what you heard, you know, except in a more formal --

440
00:45:07,260 --> 00:45:11,260
 But if it was closed, they wouldn't even be here.

441
00:45:11,260 --> 00:45:24,260
 I think if things did not go their way because of something that got said in a closed session, it would be -- I can't even imagine what would.

442
00:45:24,260 --> 00:45:31,260
 So they're getting their way because you're concerned that what they would have said, if they didn't have an open --

443
00:45:31,260 --> 00:45:36,260
 I'm not trying to hurt them. I'm not trying to hurt us.

444
00:45:36,260 --> 00:45:40,260
 No, we've said that a lot, and I totally --

445
00:45:40,260 --> 00:45:47,260
 I'm trying to get our ducks in a row so that our committee knows where they're heading. That's all.

446
00:45:47,260 --> 00:46:03,260
 I totally -- believe me, more than you probably know, I understand what you're saying, but I -- in this environment, I don't think that would fly. But that's just my opinion.

447
00:46:03,260 --> 00:46:20,260
 I want to play devil's advocate for preliminary meaning vehicles. I think it could -- depending on the makeup of the board, not that I feel intimidated by any person at the table right now.

448
00:46:20,260 --> 00:46:28,260
 But there's a possibility for members being strong-armed in a closed session without oversight.

449
00:46:28,260 --> 00:46:33,260
 I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

450
00:46:33,260 --> 00:46:39,260
 In a way, it's almost like verbal ex parte communication. It feels like we need --

451
00:46:39,260 --> 00:46:46,260
 What I said is I would be potentially concerned for intimidation within the closed session.

452
00:46:46,260 --> 00:46:55,260
 Just to be clear, it's not ex parte communication because it would only be within the board, which the board is allowed to do under the ordinance.

453
00:46:55,260 --> 00:47:09,260
 Right. So it's hard for me. It's really difficult for me to -- I did not hear any of the comments.

454
00:47:09,260 --> 00:47:24,260
 I'm not even 100% sure that I realize which party potentially was intimidating. So it's a little bit difficult for me to kind of --

455
00:47:24,260 --> 00:47:36,260
 You know, I really wish there was more separation because I sat in one of those chairs each time I come and the sidebar conversations were what may be miserable.

456
00:47:36,260 --> 00:47:49,260
 And I know that you could hear some of them on camera, but it was not nice. And it was -- you know, I wish that we could be in maybe --

457
00:47:49,260 --> 00:47:54,260
 I just think we're missing the point. Again, the point is not intimidation.

458
00:47:54,260 --> 00:48:02,260
 The point is that I didn't feel like the three of us had even breathing time to look at the complaint,

459
00:48:02,260 --> 00:48:10,260
 discuss what the movement was to it or what takes place or whatever. We were just thrown in.

460
00:48:10,260 --> 00:48:21,260
 We had these people behind us. They were chit-chatting like I felt. But if it wasn't me or David, somebody sitting here might have been intimidated

461
00:48:21,260 --> 00:48:28,260
 because it was all their buddies. But the point being, that's not why I'm fighting for that.

462
00:48:28,260 --> 00:48:37,260
 I'm fighting for this committee to have our -- I hate to say ducks in a row, but to really know where we're going

463
00:48:37,260 --> 00:48:46,260
 and be consistent about where we're going versus -- like I said, I've never known anybody not to have a closed session

464
00:48:46,260 --> 00:48:56,260
 before they discuss complaints or staff or firing or hiring. I've just never even known that and never even heard of that.

465
00:48:56,260 --> 00:49:05,260
 So to me, it's just common sense. And then you open it up to the public and they turn their little radios on or whatever

466
00:49:05,260 --> 00:49:12,260
 and they go on about what they're doing and everybody hears what they've talked about.

467
00:49:12,260 --> 00:49:18,260
 And it's not like we're hiding things from them. We're trying to get our craft together.

468
00:49:18,260 --> 00:49:26,260
 Well, I'm going to -- I'm going to speak against that because really and truly -- I mean, maybe that is because me as a teacher,

469
00:49:26,260 --> 00:49:32,260
 for me the process of how we got to that decision is just as important to the public as the final decision.

470
00:49:32,260 --> 00:49:38,260
 And that is where I -- that's where I stand. I understand the potential for there being, you know,

471
00:49:38,260 --> 00:49:44,260
 interference or potential intimidation or just inappropriate comments or whatever it may be, right?

472
00:49:44,260 --> 00:49:52,260
 But at the end of the day, the process of how we're getting to a decision is what provides the transparency for the public.

473
00:49:52,260 --> 00:50:03,260
 It is not the decision itself. The decision is just that, a decision. But the process is where -- and I don't have a problem --

474
00:50:03,260 --> 00:50:11,260
 I don't have a problem with the public seeing a messy conversation that is respectful and that addresses different points

475
00:50:11,260 --> 00:50:18,260
 and values everybody's opinion at the same time, right? Those are very, very valuable things.

476
00:50:18,260 --> 00:50:24,260
 And that is one of the reasons I've always said is like we're not hearing about how city council operates versus how we operate

477
00:50:24,260 --> 00:50:30,260
 because we know we have different opinions at this table. We have different perspectives at this table.

478
00:50:30,260 --> 00:50:34,260
 But we have been nothing but respectful to each other and each other's opinions.

479
00:50:34,260 --> 00:50:42,260
 And I think -- and that is exactly where I think even in an open meeting, regardless if we agree or disagree,

480
00:50:42,260 --> 00:50:51,260
 I'm going to have your back in that sense because our communication with each other is respectful and we get to a point of consensus when we're done.

481
00:50:51,260 --> 00:50:52,260
 And that's what's important.

482
00:50:52,260 --> 00:50:57,260
 You talk about trust, though, because I listen to the radio and this has got to -- on this thing.

483
00:50:57,260 --> 00:51:04,260
 Talk about the trust of the committee with us and they don't trust us and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

484
00:51:04,260 --> 00:51:12,260
 Well, we had finished our conversation. We decided what we were deciding.

485
00:51:12,260 --> 00:51:22,260
 And all the mighty people came up and they walked out like done. We accomplished what we wanted.

486
00:51:22,260 --> 00:51:27,260
 Now, wait a minute. Just a second.

487
00:51:27,260 --> 00:51:36,260
 We have the city council watching the video because we did the right decision we thought and we would have probably made the same decision.

488
00:51:36,260 --> 00:51:42,260
 But talk about trust. The person that turned it in felt like they did the right thing.

489
00:51:42,260 --> 00:51:49,260
 Oh, my gosh. You know, all you have to do is bring a bunch of people in here and boom, they all won.

490
00:51:49,260 --> 00:51:54,260
 So that affects your trust a little bit. But I do respect your opinion.

491
00:51:54,260 --> 00:52:01,260
 And I think that -- I can't say anything else more that is going to make you understand how I feel.

492
00:52:01,260 --> 00:52:08,260
 And so we're holding up this and, you know, I just think that we just -- we have a motion on the floor.

493
00:52:08,260 --> 00:52:14,260
 I think we just need to vote on it because I would like it to be in a record for future.

494
00:52:14,260 --> 00:52:18,260
 And I just think it's the better way for us to go.

495
00:52:18,260 --> 00:52:25,260
 And I'll respect this committee on what they're doing. Like you said, I'll have your back too.

496
00:52:25,260 --> 00:52:32,260
 I told my people when they got me, you know me. If I don't agree, I'm not voting that way.

497
00:52:32,260 --> 00:52:40,260
 So you need to make sure that you know what you're getting. So I just assume go on. I can't say anything else.

498
00:52:40,260 --> 00:52:49,260
 For the vote, I will say that I am for transparency. And I think that's more important than having a closed meeting in this situation.

499
00:52:49,260 --> 00:52:57,260
 Because I think, as Andrea said, the process needs to be transparent how to make this decision.

500
00:52:57,260 --> 00:52:58,260
 Okay.

501
00:52:58,260 --> 00:53:03,260
 But I have a suggestion that might help. What if we set -- what is the preliminary?

502
00:53:03,260 --> 00:53:18,260
 I'm serious. The two times that I have been here representing the board, I was sitting right behind council members who were saying horrible things.

503
00:53:18,260 --> 00:53:29,260
 And I couldn't even hear what Madison was saying in her presentation. I finally got up and walked out because I was so frustrated.

504
00:53:29,260 --> 00:53:39,260
 But I think if we -- I do believe whoever was saying what they were saying knew exactly what they were saying and that you would hear it.

505
00:53:39,260 --> 00:53:48,260
 And so I would suggest, I mean, if I'm here for a preliminary panel, I'm going to hurt everybody down to that end of the room.

506
00:53:48,260 --> 00:53:50,260
 Okay, then I have one more question.

507
00:53:50,260 --> 00:53:51,260
 Okay.

508
00:53:51,260 --> 00:54:00,260
 Before we vote. And maybe it's -- let's follow this. Because I have one more question on why there's only three people on the panel.

509
00:54:00,260 --> 00:54:07,260
 If we're going to leave it -- if you vote to leave it open, then why -- because you're going to be in the room anyway, right?

510
00:54:07,260 --> 00:54:09,260
 Not always.

511
00:54:09,260 --> 00:54:12,260
 Well, you're coming in for your meeting. And we have it 15 minutes before your meeting.

512
00:54:12,260 --> 00:54:15,260
 We don't always do it that way. That has --

513
00:54:15,260 --> 00:54:20,260
 Okay. I just wanted to know why we're doing three instead of the whole group.

514
00:54:20,260 --> 00:54:25,260
 Well, the preliminary panel is just to decide --

515
00:54:25,260 --> 00:54:28,260
 If it has any error, if the complaint has error.

516
00:54:28,260 --> 00:54:36,260
 So there really are no decisions other than whether or not you move forward or just dismiss it.

517
00:54:36,260 --> 00:54:43,260
 So I think you're getting a little bit deep right now on the actual function of the preliminary panel.

518
00:54:43,260 --> 00:54:45,260
 That's my dilemma.

519
00:54:45,260 --> 00:54:51,260
 It could also be done by one person, and I think it's far better to have three do it than just one.

520
00:54:51,260 --> 00:54:58,260
 But if we had voted the other way, we had voted -- it was a complaint and it was rightfully --

521
00:54:58,260 --> 00:55:01,260
 Then the whole board would have met about it.

522
00:55:01,260 --> 00:55:04,260
 They would have stayed in here and met about it, or would they have stayed --

523
00:55:04,260 --> 00:55:06,260
 No, we would have stayed at a different date.

524
00:55:06,260 --> 00:55:08,260
 We were scheduled for a full --

525
00:55:08,260 --> 00:55:14,260
 Yeah, if you had voted that the complaint was actionable, you would not have been disgusted at that next meeting.

526
00:55:14,260 --> 00:55:18,260
 We would have had to schedule another whole hearing, basically --

527
00:55:18,260 --> 00:55:20,260
 With the full board.

528
00:55:20,260 --> 00:55:26,260
 With the full board and the defendant -- I'm sorry, the respondent and the complainant would have provided evidence,

529
00:55:26,260 --> 00:55:30,260
 and then that would have been considered at that hearing at that time.

530
00:55:30,260 --> 00:55:38,260
 And the respondent would have been allowed to basically provide a response to the complaint so that the board could consider that in full.

531
00:55:38,260 --> 00:55:45,260
 The preliminary assessment panel, like members Oltner was discussing, is about deciding if on the complaint, on its face,

532
00:55:45,260 --> 00:55:50,260
 if it is a violation of the ordinance, or if it would be a violation of the ordinance.

533
00:55:50,260 --> 00:55:55,260
 So could it even possibly be considered a violation at that time?

534
00:55:55,260 --> 00:55:58,260
 If the answer is yes, then we send it to the whole board.

535
00:55:58,260 --> 00:56:00,260
 That's cool. I just wanted to hear your thoughts.

536
00:56:00,260 --> 00:56:02,260
 Our motion is about the closed session.

537
00:56:02,260 --> 00:56:04,260
 Yes, ma'am.

538
00:56:04,260 --> 00:56:11,260
 Can we go ahead -- if we're finished with the discussion about the closed session, can we vote?

539
00:56:11,260 --> 00:56:13,260
 Are we ready to vote?

540
00:56:13,260 --> 00:56:16,260
 Okay. All in favor, raise your hand.

541
00:56:16,260 --> 00:56:17,260
 Yes.

542
00:56:17,260 --> 00:56:18,260
 The motion is to --

543
00:56:18,260 --> 00:56:29,260
 The motion is to direct staff to draft a proposal to allow ethics complaints to be discussed in closed session during a preliminary assessment panel to the extent possible.

544
00:56:29,260 --> 00:56:30,260
 Okay.

545
00:56:30,260 --> 00:56:32,260
 Everybody clear on that?

546
00:56:32,260 --> 00:56:34,260
 During the preliminary panel.

547
00:56:34,260 --> 00:56:37,260
 Yes.

548
00:56:37,260 --> 00:56:41,260
 So all in favor, raise your hand.

549
00:56:41,260 --> 00:56:43,260
 So Diane and Kenneth.

550
00:56:43,260 --> 00:56:47,260
 And all opposed, raise your hand.

551
00:56:47,260 --> 00:56:50,260
 It's two to four.

552
00:56:50,260 --> 00:56:53,260
 And it fails.

553
00:56:53,260 --> 00:56:54,260
 It fails.

554
00:56:54,260 --> 00:56:55,260
 It fails.

555
00:56:55,260 --> 00:56:56,260
 Yeah.

556
00:56:56,260 --> 00:56:57,260
 Okay.

557
00:56:57,260 --> 00:56:58,260
 Thank you.

558
00:56:58,260 --> 00:57:02,260
 I was just trying to help get that motion cleared.

559
00:57:02,260 --> 00:57:05,260
 I think you all were discussing a number of people on a panel.

560
00:57:05,260 --> 00:57:08,260
 And if you all want to go back and talk about that, you can.

561
00:57:08,260 --> 00:57:09,260
 He cleared it up for me.

562
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:10,260
 I'm fine with that.

563
00:57:10,260 --> 00:57:17,260
 I was just curious on why there -- if it was open, why on that particular day, everybody was here.

564
00:57:17,260 --> 00:57:22,260
 So I'm thinking, why isn't all of our members taking part in this?

565
00:57:22,260 --> 00:57:24,260
 It does take a while to learn how everything works.

566
00:57:24,260 --> 00:57:28,260
 I had no idea when I came on the board how these things work, and it does take time.

567
00:57:28,260 --> 00:57:31,260
 And nobody would explain to you upfront how things work.

568
00:57:31,260 --> 00:57:38,260
 Well, I'm going to be nice here, but I don't want to know how it had worked on the board.

569
00:57:38,260 --> 00:57:46,260
 I want to come in here with a fresh two ears and look at what you have and say, yeah, you're the smartest people in the world.

570
00:57:46,260 --> 00:57:47,260
 What about this?

571
00:57:47,260 --> 00:57:48,260
 I don't want to.

572
00:57:48,260 --> 00:57:54,260
 I could care less what happened two years ago because we have different counsel up there.

573
00:57:54,260 --> 00:57:56,260
 We have different board members here.

574
00:57:56,260 --> 00:58:02,260
 All I've heard was how bad everybody was, and I just don't want to go there.

575
00:58:02,260 --> 00:58:03,260
 Thank you, though.

576
00:58:03,260 --> 00:58:09,260
 I wasn't trying to be disrespectful.

577
00:58:09,260 --> 00:58:16,260
 So can we move -- let's move on to the last, which is items for future meetings.

578
00:58:16,260 --> 00:58:29,260
 So we'll go back to CBOE 25-01A, receive a report, hold a discussion, and give staff direction regarding future meeting topics.

579
00:58:29,260 --> 00:58:39,260
 I believe the only thing we have currently scheduled for May is the return of the sanctions discussion from last time.

580
00:58:39,260 --> 00:58:46,260
 Do you want me to advise you?

581
00:59:09,260 --> 00:59:13,260
 Yes.

582
00:59:13,260 --> 00:59:24,260
 I believe this is what we have for next time, but obviously you all can give direction to discuss any other things that you would like.

583
00:59:24,260 --> 00:59:27,260
 Do you want to make a proposal?

584
00:59:27,260 --> 00:59:30,260
 What am I proposing?

585
00:59:30,260 --> 00:59:38,260
 The number of people on the board is a preliminary panel.

586
00:59:38,260 --> 00:59:51,260
 This is the item where we discuss future meeting topics, so if there's other topics -- because you had that -- you wanted to make a motion to ask counsel what they would like from you all.

587
00:59:51,260 --> 00:59:54,260
 I think that this is the time you could do something like that.

588
00:59:54,260 --> 00:59:56,260
 I'm kind of lost.

589
00:59:56,260 --> 00:59:57,260
 I'm looking at my notes.

590
00:59:57,260 --> 01:00:05,260
 I wanted to talk about that, which we just did, and we talked about why everybody wasn't on it, what we did.

591
01:00:05,260 --> 01:00:17,260
 Well, at first you had mentioned giving direction for us to talk to counsel about what they want.

592
01:00:17,260 --> 01:00:19,260
 I think that's a really good question.

593
01:00:19,260 --> 01:00:21,260
 Do I have the freedom to --

594
01:00:21,260 --> 01:00:22,260
 Yes.

595
01:00:22,260 --> 01:00:27,260
 Okay.

596
01:00:27,260 --> 01:00:32,260
 I just think that we're going round and round and round with counsel, and we've discussed that.

597
01:00:32,260 --> 01:00:35,260
 They don't trust us, or we don't trust them.

598
01:00:35,260 --> 01:00:37,260
 They don't trust each other.

599
01:00:37,260 --> 01:00:42,260
 I mean, I don't know how we expect them to trust us when they don't trust each other.

600
01:00:42,260 --> 01:00:49,260
 And it's like they want $500,000, $5,000, $50,000.

601
01:00:49,260 --> 01:00:51,260
 It doesn't matter if we give them $50,000.

602
01:00:51,260 --> 01:00:57,260
 There's always going to be somebody on there that's unhappy, because it's self-serving.

603
01:00:57,260 --> 01:01:00,260
 And I don't mean to be respectful to the counsel.

604
01:01:00,260 --> 01:01:03,260
 You know, they give it up their time and their effort and this and that.

605
01:01:03,260 --> 01:01:06,260
 They're just people.

606
01:01:06,260 --> 01:01:12,260
 But if we're going to have this problem over and over again, like I heard through your meetings,

607
01:01:12,260 --> 01:01:19,260
 they've been dealing with it for three years, this non-trust.

608
01:01:19,260 --> 01:01:29,260
 My question is, to keep it simple, they put us on the board.

609
01:01:29,260 --> 01:01:36,260
 Somebody elected you and you and you, and they put us on the board for a reason.

610
01:01:36,260 --> 01:01:40,260
 Have we just -- and you might have done this already.

611
01:01:40,260 --> 01:01:49,260
 But have we just sat down with one or two or all of them and just said, what is your ask?

612
01:01:49,260 --> 01:01:53,260
 What do you want from us?

613
01:01:53,260 --> 01:02:00,260
 We will maybe meet you halfway, but we can't meet you all the way.

614
01:02:00,260 --> 01:02:11,260
 Therefore, we want to know -- the only way we can get to a solution is, what is your ask?

615
01:02:11,260 --> 01:02:14,260
 What do you want out of us?

616
01:02:14,260 --> 01:02:23,260
 Don't be afraid, because they think that we're not tough women and men in here.

617
01:02:23,260 --> 01:02:25,260
 And I believe we are.

618
01:02:25,260 --> 01:02:27,260
 I know we are.

619
01:02:27,260 --> 01:02:34,260
 Didn't I hear that they wanted some clarification about approaching us?

620
01:02:34,260 --> 01:02:35,260
 About what?

621
01:02:35,260 --> 01:02:37,260
 We discussed that, yes.

622
01:02:37,260 --> 01:02:43,260
 I think there has been some discussion about maybe having a joint meeting.

623
01:02:43,260 --> 01:02:48,260
 It seems like there's been some interest from some people and from y'all as well as from them.

624
01:02:48,260 --> 01:02:53,260
 I don't think we've figured out when that could occur yet, but we can look into that further.

625
01:02:53,260 --> 01:02:55,260
 I would very much like to do that.

626
01:02:55,260 --> 01:02:57,260
 I think it would be great.

627
01:02:57,260 --> 01:03:00,260
 Because everybody keeps saying no to us.

628
01:03:00,260 --> 01:03:06,260
 No to everything we put forward until we put them and say to them, what is your ask?

629
01:03:06,260 --> 01:03:08,260
 What do you want us to do?

630
01:03:08,260 --> 01:03:15,260
 And okay, we'll agree to this, we'll not agree to this, but we're not going any more than this.

631
01:03:15,260 --> 01:03:21,260
 For instance, I don't really -- I don't even understand the money, why that's such a big thing to anybody.

632
01:03:21,260 --> 01:03:31,260
 But the point being, if we said to them, just an example, we'll give you the $5,000, make believe.

633
01:03:31,260 --> 01:03:34,260
 But we're not budgeting one more cent over that.

634
01:03:34,260 --> 01:03:37,260
 It's not happening.

635
01:03:37,260 --> 01:03:42,260
 And you can do without us as members, but you put us on here.

636
01:03:42,260 --> 01:03:44,260
 And what do you want?

637
01:03:44,260 --> 01:03:46,260
 You want, is this the number you're wanting?

638
01:03:46,260 --> 01:03:54,260
 Is this number important to you because of -- and just be straight with them and just say blah.

639
01:03:54,260 --> 01:03:56,260
 Because that's how they deal.

640
01:03:56,260 --> 01:04:02,260
 Well, we did say blah, and they just said we were stupid for saying blah.

641
01:04:02,260 --> 01:04:10,260
 And so I -- well, I have no problem if they say no, we don't like that number.

642
01:04:10,260 --> 01:04:12,260
 We want another one.

643
01:04:12,260 --> 01:04:15,260
 But that's not what they did.

644
01:04:15,260 --> 01:04:18,260
 I just want to know why they're picking that number.

645
01:04:18,260 --> 01:04:21,260
 You know, and put it in their court.

646
01:04:21,260 --> 01:04:26,260
 You know, we're the ones coming -- they perceive we're the ones that are trying to control them.

647
01:04:26,260 --> 01:04:28,260
 That's what they think.

648
01:04:28,260 --> 01:04:37,260
 But they have tried from the very start for this whole board, this entire concept of an ethics code, to just go away.

649
01:04:37,260 --> 01:04:40,260
 I think what they want is they don't want us.

650
01:04:40,260 --> 01:04:46,260
 Well, even the current members that sit here, you know, the very first meeting,

651
01:04:46,260 --> 01:04:54,260
 there was a motion to try and just kill this whole thing and get rid of the ethics code from the get-go.

652
01:04:54,260 --> 01:04:56,260
 Well, that failed.

653
01:04:56,260 --> 01:05:00,260
 So we've been limping along back and forth.

654
01:05:00,260 --> 01:05:07,260
 Madison, do you have any idea when the next time this council is going to deal with this, schedule-wise?

655
01:05:07,260 --> 01:05:12,260
 I mean, you haven't forwarded any proposals to them at this time, so --

656
01:05:12,260 --> 01:05:16,260
 So is the ball in our court now to forward something to them again?

657
01:05:16,260 --> 01:05:18,260
 Yes.

658
01:05:18,260 --> 01:05:26,260
 I mean, the proposals that you have that we presented in March are being -- are on the agenda tomorrow for adoption.

659
01:05:26,260 --> 01:05:29,260
 But that'll just solidify what y'all have already done.

660
01:05:29,260 --> 01:05:34,260
 And then there won't be any new proposals at this time that y'all have forwarded then.

661
01:05:34,260 --> 01:05:42,260
 So just for my -- so this whole burden, in your mind, is this whole burden a proof of history in --

662
01:05:42,260 --> 01:05:45,260
 No, we did get that changed.

663
01:05:45,260 --> 01:05:47,260
 There was a change that was --

664
01:05:47,260 --> 01:05:49,260
 At least the wording is not burdened.

665
01:05:49,260 --> 01:05:50,260
 So that's all over with.

666
01:05:50,260 --> 01:05:54,260
 That's as far as we're going to get with the burden of proof.

667
01:05:54,260 --> 01:05:55,260
 The burden of proof?

668
01:05:55,260 --> 01:06:15,260
 I can show you what is on the agenda for tomorrow.

669
01:06:15,260 --> 01:06:17,260
 Oh, I didn't see that.

670
01:06:17,260 --> 01:06:18,260
 That's tomorrow?

671
01:06:18,260 --> 01:06:19,260
 Yes.

672
01:06:19,260 --> 01:06:23,260
 So this is what is up for adoption tomorrow.

673
01:06:23,260 --> 01:06:26,260
 I think it's a huge improvement.

674
01:06:26,260 --> 01:06:34,260
 You know, it was -- the two things we wanted most, we got, they will approve it tomorrow.

675
01:06:34,260 --> 01:06:39,260
 It was just served up with a side order of nasty.

676
01:06:39,260 --> 01:06:43,260
 But --

677
01:06:43,260 --> 01:06:45,260
 That's what?

678
01:06:45,260 --> 01:06:49,260
 Let's stay on this topic.

679
01:06:49,260 --> 01:06:53,260
 Try not to debate.

680
01:06:53,260 --> 01:07:03,260
 So we got what was important, and I'm pretty happy about that.

681
01:07:03,260 --> 01:07:05,260
 Well, you've got to negotiate.

682
01:07:05,260 --> 01:07:11,260
 I mean, if we don't negotiate and meet somewhere in the middle, nothing's going to change.

683
01:07:11,260 --> 01:07:13,260
 You're going to go around this for another three years.

684
01:07:13,260 --> 01:07:15,260
 You know, I mean, they want something.

685
01:07:15,260 --> 01:07:20,260
 I don't think they particularly changed these two things either.

686
01:07:20,260 --> 01:07:30,260
 I mean, there was a lot of discussion about other things, but these two things went through kind of the way we asked them to go.

687
01:07:30,260 --> 01:07:31,260
 Don't you think that --

688
01:07:31,260 --> 01:07:36,260
 They changed a little bit about --

689
01:07:36,260 --> 01:07:39,260
 The monetary limits were not approved, correct?

690
01:07:39,260 --> 01:07:44,260
 Those are the ones where they said they didn't like the numbers.

691
01:07:44,260 --> 01:07:47,260
 But they redirected us.

692
01:07:47,260 --> 01:07:51,260
 We could look at those numbers again, right?

693
01:07:51,260 --> 01:07:53,260
 Can I ask what topic?

694
01:07:53,260 --> 01:07:59,260
 So what future agenda -- what potential future agenda item are we discussing right now?

695
01:07:59,260 --> 01:08:07,260
 I would like for us to discuss the fact that we would like a set meeting with them to talk over

696
01:08:07,260 --> 01:08:15,260
 and communicate how we can coexist because they're good people and we're good people.

697
01:08:15,260 --> 01:08:21,260
 And there's got to become some kind of a meet in the middle.

698
01:08:21,260 --> 01:08:25,260
 They want something from us, obviously, or they wouldn't keep saying no to us.

699
01:08:25,260 --> 01:08:27,260
 At least that's what I'm hearing.

700
01:08:27,260 --> 01:08:30,260
 Have we gotten a yes from them at any point?

701
01:08:30,260 --> 01:08:31,260
 No, we did.

702
01:08:31,260 --> 01:08:36,260
 We got a couple of misses this last time, a couple of really important ones.

703
01:08:36,260 --> 01:08:40,260
 Well, I fell off of you the other day.

704
01:08:40,260 --> 01:08:45,260
 I have to admit how distressed you felt.

705
01:08:45,260 --> 01:08:48,260
 And I did.

706
01:08:48,260 --> 01:08:53,260
 I fell off of you and protected my team.

707
01:08:53,260 --> 01:09:02,260
 I would like to be more clear under what circumstances city council members contact

708
01:09:02,260 --> 01:09:06,260
 members of the Board of Ethics.

709
01:09:06,260 --> 01:09:07,260
 For a future topic?

710
01:09:07,260 --> 01:09:10,260
 Yeah.

711
01:09:10,260 --> 01:09:12,260
 Explain that again.

712
01:09:12,260 --> 01:09:19,260
 I think there should be some ground rules about how council members approach

713
01:09:19,260 --> 01:09:22,260
 Board of Ethics members.

714
01:09:22,260 --> 01:09:27,260
 There should be ground rules on how they approach each other.

715
01:09:27,260 --> 01:09:29,260
 About just general topics or complaints?

716
01:09:29,260 --> 01:09:34,260
 This is for a future topic for next meeting to talk about how council members

717
01:09:34,260 --> 01:09:38,260
 approach Board of Ethics members.

718
01:09:38,260 --> 01:09:42,260
 That was one, and the other was setting up a meeting with both groups.

719
01:09:42,260 --> 01:09:44,260
 That's two future topics.

720
01:09:44,260 --> 01:09:46,260
 Are there any other future topics?

721
01:09:46,260 --> 01:09:47,260
 No.

722
01:09:47,260 --> 01:09:49,260
 That seems like enough to talk about next time.

723
01:09:49,260 --> 01:09:51,260
 Those would be good things to talk about.

724
01:09:51,260 --> 01:09:59,260
 Well, I also think we should add this money thing.

725
01:09:59,260 --> 01:10:00,260
 Possibly talk about the money thing.

726
01:10:00,260 --> 01:10:05,260
 We went above where they were.

727
01:10:05,260 --> 01:10:08,260
 We went way above where they were to help.

728
01:10:08,260 --> 01:10:11,260
 So now they're frustrated with that.

729
01:10:11,260 --> 01:10:14,260
 So I don't feel like they're trying to meet us halfway.

730
01:10:14,260 --> 01:10:17,260
 So what is their number?

731
01:10:17,260 --> 01:10:22,260
 Does that make sense to you?

732
01:10:22,260 --> 01:10:23,260
 What is their number?

733
01:10:23,260 --> 01:10:24,260
 I'm sorry.

734
01:10:24,260 --> 01:10:30,260
 My face is I'm still hung up on a completely different topic, future topic.

735
01:10:30,260 --> 01:10:32,260
 So I'm sorry.

736
01:10:32,260 --> 01:10:35,260
 I was not responding to what you were just saying.

737
01:10:35,260 --> 01:10:36,260
 It was in my own head.

738
01:10:36,260 --> 01:10:37,260
 That's okay.

739
01:10:37,260 --> 01:10:39,260
 Those three things.

740
01:10:39,260 --> 01:10:44,260
 Yeah, I think those three things will be enough to talk about.

741
01:10:44,260 --> 01:10:53,260
 So my understanding was in May you wanted to talk about sanctions, I believe, from last time.

742
01:10:53,260 --> 01:11:02,260
 So I think that it will take -- I mean, we can meet for two hours if you really want to.

743
01:11:02,260 --> 01:11:08,260
 But I just think if you want to still do that, we might not be able to do all three of these things next time.

744
01:11:08,260 --> 01:11:15,260
 I think we need to distribute them over May and June.

745
01:11:15,260 --> 01:11:16,260
 I agree.

746
01:11:16,260 --> 01:11:24,260
 So how would you prioritize with the discussion of sanctions next time and then one of these other ones?

747
01:11:24,260 --> 01:11:30,260
 I really would love to have a joint meeting.

748
01:11:30,260 --> 01:11:39,260
 But I don't know that we need to have that -- if the direction is everybody's interested in having a joint meeting,

749
01:11:39,260 --> 01:11:44,260
 I can just work on trying to figure out the logistics of that and try to come back with a management report or something.

750
01:11:44,260 --> 01:11:45,260
 I don't know.

751
01:11:45,260 --> 01:11:53,260
 We need that meeting to be a topic on that.

752
01:11:53,260 --> 01:11:56,260
 We don't want to get into what I call a war with them.

753
01:11:56,260 --> 01:12:03,260
 It would be even easier to have a couple of them on either -- a Democrat, Republican, and a few of you guys.

754
01:12:03,260 --> 01:12:10,260
 I mean, I don't know if we need all the munition in the room to figure out where we want to go.

755
01:12:10,260 --> 01:12:12,260
 I think we're about to give them a hard time.

756
01:12:12,260 --> 01:12:22,260
 Yeah, we have to have all -- what we're discussing would be a meeting of the City Council and a meeting of the Board of Ethics at the same time.

757
01:12:22,260 --> 01:12:27,260
 The mayor would share that meeting. We would come up with -- staff would come up with topics.

758
01:12:27,260 --> 01:12:36,260
 Like one -- or at least probably one or two agenda items for you all to discuss, at least, right?

759
01:12:36,260 --> 01:12:39,260
 So it would -- it will not happen next month.

760
01:12:39,260 --> 01:12:40,260
 No.

761
01:12:40,260 --> 01:12:43,260
 It's something that would take time to arrange.

762
01:12:43,260 --> 01:12:46,260
 And just to be clear about what it would look like, right?

763
01:12:46,260 --> 01:12:48,260
 Yeah.

764
01:12:48,260 --> 01:12:51,260
 I would suggest maybe after the election.

765
01:12:51,260 --> 01:12:53,260
 There's no way we could do it before the election.

766
01:12:53,260 --> 01:12:55,260
 Yeah, well, that's fine. That's fine.

767
01:12:55,260 --> 01:13:06,260
 Madison, once you pulled up a minute ago on that topic, is that a discussion topic or is that an action item?

768
01:13:06,260 --> 01:13:07,260
 This here?

769
01:13:07,260 --> 01:13:08,260
 Yeah.

770
01:13:08,260 --> 01:13:12,260
 This is on the agenda for City Council to adopt tomorrow.

771
01:13:12,260 --> 01:13:14,260
 So that is for action?

772
01:13:14,260 --> 01:13:15,260
 Yes, for City Council to adopt.

773
01:13:15,260 --> 01:13:21,260
 For final action, so that will permanently adjust this whole --

774
01:13:21,260 --> 01:13:26,260
 Yes, to say this tomorrow, if it's approved.

775
01:13:26,260 --> 01:13:28,260
 That's good, right?

776
01:13:28,260 --> 01:13:33,260
 I thought we were going to get to discuss that with council again. Isn't that my only?

777
01:13:33,260 --> 01:13:40,260
 No, that's -- so if we don't -- if we don't need an agenda item for the joint meeting, I would like to --

778
01:13:40,260 --> 01:13:53,260
 I would like to discuss next month what you brought up with how City Councilmembers approach the Board of Ethics members.

779
01:13:53,260 --> 01:13:57,260
 I think that would be my priority for next month.

780
01:13:57,260 --> 01:14:04,260
 I would really like to have some rules of engagement.

781
01:14:04,260 --> 01:14:10,260
 Regarding the ordinance itself or specific complaints. I mean, which --

782
01:14:10,260 --> 01:14:19,260
 No, Annette said that she would like to discuss how City Councilmembers specifically approach Board of Ethics members.

783
01:14:19,260 --> 01:14:21,260
 Some kind of procedural.

784
01:14:21,260 --> 01:14:23,260
 Did they come at you directly to you?

785
01:14:23,260 --> 01:14:24,260
 Oh, yeah.

786
01:14:24,260 --> 01:14:26,260
 Did you hear my name and said ugly things to you?

787
01:14:26,260 --> 01:14:31,260
 Call me up.

788
01:14:31,260 --> 01:14:33,260
 Other than that one time with --

789
01:14:33,260 --> 01:14:37,260
 I -- yeah, but -- oh.

790
01:14:37,260 --> 01:14:39,260
 Other than that one time with Brian?

791
01:14:39,260 --> 01:14:41,260
 Twice.

792
01:14:41,260 --> 01:14:43,260
 They have no right to do that.

793
01:14:43,260 --> 01:14:47,260
 I'm not the only one who's been --

794
01:14:47,260 --> 01:14:54,260
 Yeah, I just want clarification on what the boundaries are, discussions with council.

795
01:14:54,260 --> 01:14:55,260
 Are there any boundaries?

796
01:14:55,260 --> 01:15:01,260
 I wish we had the right to say, but we need to have these discussions in public. You need to come to it.

797
01:15:01,260 --> 01:15:06,260
 It's not personal. It should never be personal.

798
01:15:06,260 --> 01:15:20,260
 So we -- I will discuss with the city secretary's office if there is any current guidelines for council discussing with any of their nominees to the board -- or to boards and commissions.

799
01:15:20,260 --> 01:15:26,260
 Just to see if we can get any -- if there is anything existing and we can present any information.

800
01:15:26,260 --> 01:15:31,260
 I would very much like that because I think it would be helpful to just say, this needs to be a public discussion.

801
01:15:31,260 --> 01:15:36,260
 Come on. I don't hear you.

802
01:15:36,260 --> 01:15:37,260
 Yeah.

803
01:15:37,260 --> 01:15:47,260
 So the direction is, to my understanding, during May we'll have minutes, obviously, future meeting and topics update like normal.

804
01:15:47,260 --> 01:16:03,260
 If we have any information on the joint meeting, we can all present that in the management risk report and then having the discussion of sanctions and the discussion about council members and board of ethics members interacting.

805
01:16:03,260 --> 01:16:08,260
 Okay. Is there any further discussion?

806
01:16:08,260 --> 01:16:11,260
 I think we all have enough time.

807
01:16:11,260 --> 01:16:15,260
 It's now 646 p.m. and this meeting is adjourned.