1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,800 Okay. Good evening. This is the Board of Ethics. It is Monday, February 10, 2025 at 5.30 p.m. 2 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:21,000 We're going to start our meeting with item number one, and it's supposed to be presentation 3 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:27,000 for members of the public, and no one has signed up. So we will move on to item two, 4 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:37,000 items for consideration. Item A, DOE 2025-007, consider approval of the regular meeting 5 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:44,000 and the special call meeting minutes for January 6th. So exhibit one is the regular meeting. 6 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,000 Do I hear a motion for approval or any... 7 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,000 I have a question. 8 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,000 Yes, Dustin. 9 00:00:51,000 --> 00:01:00,000 On the first item on there, for the vote for Vice Chair, I abstain from the vote. 10 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,000 Oh. 11 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:08,000 This means absent. I don't know if that's how it's supposed to be noted on there or not. 12 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,000 I can't pull it up because it's not in there. 13 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,000 The special call meeting minutes for January 6th. 14 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:28,000 Should probably say abstain instead of absent. 15 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000 Oh yeah. We can fix that. 16 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,000 Okay. 17 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,000 We'll just approve them as amended. 18 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Sounds great. 19 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,000 So do I... 20 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,000 I'll move that we approve them as amended. 21 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,000 Okay. Is there a second to that? 22 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,000 With an amendment to... 23 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,000 To change. 24 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000 Maybe abstain instead of absent. 25 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,000 That's correct. On item... 26 00:01:49,000 --> 00:02:00,000 On item A, like the third little paragraph. 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,000 Is that what your motion has been agreed to? 28 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:09,000 Yeah. My motion is that we approve them with the amendment to the... 29 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:16,000 That I was absent from the vote and that should be changed to abstain from the vote. 30 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,000 Okay. 31 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,000 That's it? 32 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,000 Yeah. 33 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,000 Great. 34 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,000 All right. 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,000 I would second. 36 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,000 I'll second. 37 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,000 Diane seconded. 38 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,000 So all in favor of approving the minutes as... 39 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,000 As amended. 40 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,000 As amended. 41 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,000 Okay. 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,000 So item two is the special call meeting. 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:40,000 So do I hear a motion to approve it or any changes that have been made? 44 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,000 In our closed meeting, this is a closed meeting. 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,000 I mean the... 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,000 That was the panel meeting. 47 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,000 The panel meeting. 48 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,000 Right. 49 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,000 Okay. 50 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,000 Okay. 51 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,000 I'll second. 52 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,000 Okay. 53 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 So all in favor? 54 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,000 Thank you. 55 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,000 Thank you. 56 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,000 And Kenneth, I'll just remind you that you need to sign before you leave. 57 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Since you're the chair. 58 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,000 Oh. 59 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,000 All right. 60 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,000 Let me sign this. 61 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:07,000 I'll send it back to you. 62 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,000 That doesn't matter. 63 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,000 This is the next. 64 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,000 All right. 65 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Thank you. 66 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Okay. 67 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,000 All right. 68 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:24,000 So moving on to item B, BOE 25-00A, Receiver Report, Hold the Discussion, and Give Staff 69 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Direction Regarding Potential Changes to the City of Denton Photo Ordinances, Chapter 70 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:43,000 2, Article 11, Ethics, Section 2-269, Definitions, Section 2-273, Prohibitions, and Section 2-281, 71 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,000 Hearings. 72 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,000 Okay. 73 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:54,000 So based on our discussion last time, we prepared new red lines. 74 00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:01,000 I believe you got copies of them and you already mailed them from Joey, but this is not part 75 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,000 of it. 76 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:08,000 So we've kind of discussed all this stuff a couple times, right? 77 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:17,000 So I guess we'll start with this conflict of interest part. 78 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Any discussion? 79 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:40,000 And tonight we're going to be voting, unless there's some reason that we decide not to. 80 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:48,000 So anybody have questions about that? 81 00:04:48,000 --> 00:05:04,000 Any words of anything we need to do? 82 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:12,000 Okay, so I'm going to ask you to put your third line on one, or are reasonably certain 83 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,000 two hyphen comma inputs? 84 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,000 Or is that? 85 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,000 That's a red line. 86 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Okay. 87 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,000 I figured it was, but it popped up in here as a hyphen. 88 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Yeah, it should be. 89 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Just checking. 90 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,000 Yeah, it's deleting that comma. 91 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Okay. 92 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,000 Okay. 93 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:45,000 I'm not hearing any discussion, so are we ready to vote on this? 94 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:53,000 Okay. 95 00:05:53,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Okay, then let's move on to the next red line. 96 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:40,000 I have a question. 97 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,000 I'm just out of curiosity. 98 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,000 Where, the figure, $600, where was that grabbed at? 99 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,000 I mean -- 100 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,000 That's from the current ordinance. 101 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,000 Okay. 102 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:56,000 That's something, like I said, that's from the current ordinance, we incorporated these 103 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:05,000 in here to try to give guidelines on what amount gives ownership of our business entity. 104 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,000 If that is something that you all would like to discuss or change, we can. 105 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,000 But I don't have any backup on why $600, if that makes sense. 106 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,000 I wasn't here when you discussed that, I hadn't been on the board yet, but -- 107 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,000 I wasn't here either. 108 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:30,000 What I want to make sure is that the people on the city council have the ability to still 109 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,000 work and be on the council and not break the code of ethics. 110 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:42,000 And so I was wondering where that figure came from, because, you know, I understand what 111 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:48,000 we're trying to do, completely understand, but it's almost impossible, I would think. 112 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,000 I'd like to -- Ken, I'd like to respond to you. 113 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,000 I mean, is that a figure that -- you're a lawyer, right? 114 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:03,000 And is that a figure that it will ever cross your line that, in your opinion, is not fair 115 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,000 for them to be on the city council? 116 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:12,000 And -- can I just interrupt? 117 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:18,000 Just because it is part of the existing ordinance that none of us discuss, in order to give 118 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:24,000 you a little bit of history, we spend, as a board, we spend quite a bit of time trying 119 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,000 to answer exactly the question that you're bringing up. 120 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,000 Is this a fair amount? 121 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,000 Is this an amount that makes sense? 122 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,000 Should we amend -- and we painstakingly went through it. 123 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:46,000 We sent a bunch of proposals to city council for approval, and they were not accepted or 124 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,000 taken into consideration, and they were -- 125 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,000 They were loudly not. 126 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,000 Yeah. 127 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,000 They did not accept an amount of money. 128 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,000 Is that what you're saying? 129 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,000 They did not accept any kind of changes or amendments that we tried to make to exactly 130 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:06,000 these dollar amounts that are in the current ordinance. 131 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:12,000 And this section here defines -- essentially defines how you would determine if a city 132 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,000 official owns a business entity. 133 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Right. 134 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:21,000 So it would be if they own more than $600 of the fair market value or 5% or more of 135 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,000 the stock. 136 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:31,000 And then that would just preclude them from -- that creates the conflicting interest, 137 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,000 basically. 138 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:37,000 So if their business entity that they own comes up at a council meeting or in deliberations, 139 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:42,000 they are required to recuse from that discussion wherever it is and file an affidavit. 140 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,000 So it doesn't preclude them from owning a business entity. 141 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:51,000 Just if in their official capacity, their business entity that they own, through one 142 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:56,000 of these two methods, comes up, they're supposed to recuse from that discussion. 143 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,000 Does that help with what it does? 144 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,000 Yeah. 145 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Okay. 146 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,000 I just want to make sure that we're treating people that are working for our city fairly. 147 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,000 Yes. 148 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,000 And, you know, I don't -- I mean, I thought about this when I first got on the committee. 149 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:16,000 I thought, well, what if the city had a -- I put myself in a softball -- decided to have 150 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,000 a softball team. 151 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:23,000 And they called me up, and I was on the city council, and they called me up to coach it. 152 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:29,000 And I know this far out, but it's relative. 153 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,000 And I said, okay, yeah, I'll coach it, but I want to be paid. 154 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,000 But I want to be paid $800 over a three-month period. 155 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,000 Let's make the leap. 156 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000 Well, would that -- something like that. 157 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:47,000 That would still only be an issue if the softball team came up before city council. 158 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,000 And you were on city council. 159 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,000 Yeah. 160 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,000 Okay. 161 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,000 That's what I'm saying. 162 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,000 If I was a city council member, and I was a softball coach, and they said, hey, Sally 163 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,000 Sue, we'd love for you to -- I'll use this as an example. 164 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,000 Yeah. 165 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,000 I would love for you to -- we want you to coach our team, because we want to represent 166 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,000 that well. 167 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,000 And Sally said, yeah, I'll be more than happy, but I'm not doing it for free. 168 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,000 And she wanted, let's say, $800 to pay expenses and stuff. 169 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,000 She could not do that under this rule, right? 170 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000 She could. 171 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,000 She could. 172 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,000 She would just have to recuse, and for some reason the softball team came before city 173 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,000 council and asked for something. 174 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,000 Okay. 175 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,000 Let's say the city council was mad at them for losing games, and they wanted to talk 176 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,000 about them. 177 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,000 You probably should recuse yourself. 178 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,000 Yeah. 179 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,000 I'm just saying. 180 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I can't imagine. 181 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,000 I mean, I'm just saying I'm using this as an example. 182 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,000 I think it's usually a larger issue. 183 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,000 And I do -- so this issue that you're talking about, I believe, would fall under the definition 184 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000 of client, which actually isn't in the current ordinance. 185 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:53,000 So I do want to discuss that. 186 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,000 So we did define it this way. 187 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,000 So this would actually be new. 188 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,000 This would be creating a new relationship that would create a conflict of interest. 189 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,000 We've discussed in the past proposing this type of relationship to council. 190 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,000 You approved the language, but when Scott and I discussed it, we decided it would be 191 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,000 best to have a definition instead of just an open language. 192 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,000 This is what we came up with based on previous discussions, or what I came up with. 193 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,000 Scott was around, but not providing -- but -- 194 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:30,000 And I think we've established that it wouldn't be because you patronize a certain grocery 195 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,000 store. 196 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,000 It would just be more about businesses. 197 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,000 Right. 198 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:44,000 It would be people paying you or who you owe fiduciary duty to. 199 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,000 And this amount is taken from the model code. 200 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,000 And they -- I will say when we discussed this a little bit with council, they had concerns, 201 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,000 like you were talking about, about this amount. 202 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:02,000 So I think we should -- it might be good to have discussions about is this $1,000 -- do 203 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:14,000 we believe that that would create a conflicting interest over 24 months? 204 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,000 If that makes sense. 205 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,000 It's not an employer. 206 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,000 It's not a business entity that you own, but it's a client, somebody who you're supplying 207 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,000 services such as coaching a softball team for. 208 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,000 Well, you know, again, I'm going to go back to another example. 209 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:34,000 Me, myself, I'm not on the committee, but let's say I was on the committee. 210 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,000 Or city council, excuse me. 211 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,000 I'm a national promotions writer. 212 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:44,000 And I give discounted prices to everybody across the country. 213 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,000 Okay. 214 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,000 And a lot of times they'll go over that value. 215 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:57,000 Okay, so based on that value, I would have to stop at $1,000 to give to the city council 216 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,000 or not? 217 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,000 No, you just -- you cannot vote on the issue before city council that involves that cost 218 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,000 as an attorney. 219 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,000 Okay, that's it. 220 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,000 That doesn't stop them from getting the same thing anybody else would get. 221 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,000 Exactly. 222 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,000 It just stops you from voting on an issue if they come before you. 223 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,000 Thanks, guys. 224 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,000 I just want to make sure -- 225 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,000 No, I think this is a really good discussion about what this does because it's new. 226 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,000 I've got to say I do think $1,000 is kind of low. 227 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,000 That's just my opinion. 228 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,000 Right. 229 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,000 I have no stake in $1,000. 230 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Yeah, I know. 231 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,000 That's just what was in the Holocaust, which was pretty old. 232 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,000 It was about 20 years old, I think. 233 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,000 Do I think $1,000 is long term? 234 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,000 I don't know. 235 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,000 What would you guys suggest? 236 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:44,000 This is exactly the time to discuss what you would propose -- prefer to propose if so. 237 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,000 I'd be more apt to say something like $2,500. 238 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,000 $5,000. 239 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,000 I was thinking $5,000, actually. 240 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,000 Inflation? 241 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,000 Yeah, inflation. 242 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,000 That's true. 243 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,000 Because the thing I hate about putting numbers into this code is they're going to have to 244 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,000 constantly be readjusted. 245 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000 So I could go for $2,500 or $5,000. 246 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,000 Yeah. 247 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:17,000 I think we have to have a number that was one of the -- part of the feedback from council 248 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,000 was that they wanted some threshold where they could define this. 249 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,000 I think it makes sense. 250 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,000 I mean, $1,000 is a lot to me. 251 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,000 But I guess it depends on the business you're in. 252 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:40,000 And I think it probably doesn't matter if it's $1,000 or $2,500. 253 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:49,000 I think if someone has some significant business with an entity and they're on council -- 254 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,000 You know, one thing -- 255 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:58,000 I'm fine with leaving it $1,000 or raising it to $5,000 or whatever you want. 256 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,000 I don't think I would be upset either way. 257 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,000 Here's what makes me nervous. 258 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:10,000 They threw the whole thing out last time over one number, basically. 259 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:17,000 So I would like to point out, this is what we thought, but you have the right to say 260 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,000 that it should be a different number. 261 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:25,000 Please don't throw the whole thing out that we spent hours and hours on. 262 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,000 I'll try to communicate that. 263 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,000 I did try last time. 264 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,000 You did great. 265 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,000 You did. 266 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,000 It was -- yeah. 267 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,000 You should go back and watch that movie. 268 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:43,000 It was very fun. 269 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:49,000 So I think there's two things to consider on both sides. 270 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,000 So first is the purpose of it. 271 00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:02,000 The purpose is to prevent preferential treatment to issues before the city council. 272 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,000 Well, before anybody, right? 273 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,000 Because this is conflict of interest with us as well. 274 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:13,000 And so it's to prevent somebody from getting preferential treatment. 275 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:21,000 So if there's any stake, if you owe any fiduciary duty to somebody, then there is a chance -- 276 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,000 That makes you vulnerable. 277 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,000 Yeah, there's a chance of preferential treatment. 278 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:35,000 But then the other side, what stops somebody from getting a complaint, for instance here, 279 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,000 getting a complaint and then running to me for a consult real quick? 280 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,000 I don't know that the complaint has been filed yet, and now I'm conflicted out. 281 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,000 So there's two sides of it. 282 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,000 So Jill Jester, for instance, is an attorney. 283 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:58,000 So what if there's an issue that she may be the swing vote on and that person goes 284 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,000 and gets a consult with her intentionally to conflict her out? 285 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,000 I'm not saying it will happen. 286 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,000 It has happened, not with her. 287 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,000 Maybe not in Denton, but it definitely has happened before. 288 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Yeah, sure. 289 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:18,000 And so that's something we have to consider as well is are we putting our board members 290 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,000 in a position to get intentionally conflicted out? 291 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,000 And I don't know how you address that. 292 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:30,000 In that case, if you raise that value, then maybe you lower it. 293 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,000 Say that again. 294 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,000 Lower it. 295 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,000 You lower that chance of an intentional -- 296 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,000 Somebody's not going to come and pay me five grand just to conflict me out. 297 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,000 Well, they may, but it's unlikely. 298 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,000 The chances are low. 299 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:47,000 But if you raise it to five grand, now there's more likely to be a chance 300 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,000 of me giving preferential treatment to somebody because I'm not conflicted out. 301 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,000 This is kind of a double-edged sword. 302 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:02,000 I guess I'm thinking of it from -- if someone is trying to abuse this clause 303 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:07,000 by hiring you, for instance, to create a conflict of interest, 304 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:14,000 if that value is higher, then there's a bigger barrier to them doing that. 305 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:20,000 That was actually part of the discussion that came up before was this. 306 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:26,000 So what would you recommend? 307 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:32,000 Well, the first clause of the sentence is followed by an "or," 308 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:39,000 which means it's an "and/or," so they can either create the fiduciary relationship 309 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:44,000 and as an attorney that would be simply scheduling a consult would create that fiduciary, 310 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,000 which would conflict me out. 311 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:54,000 Or they could pay me $1,000 or more, and that would conflict me out. 312 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,000 Does that make sense? 313 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:03,000 So technically they could conflict you out just by creating the fiduciary relationship. 314 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,000 I don't know what other fiduciary relationships exist besides attorneys. 315 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:12,000 We kind of get -- ours are just -- the attorney-client relationship 316 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,000 is one of the strongest relationships in the country. 317 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,000 A trustee executor. 318 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,000 A trustee executor, so if you hired a trustee, yeah. 319 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,000 I think -- maybe I don't understand the third court language completely. 320 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:34,000 You're saying that if you have some fiduciary duty to a client, 321 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,000 that you would be conflicted out. 322 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:41,000 But when I read this, I think that value has to be greater than $1,000. 323 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:49,000 Because it says "or," a person or business entity gives me $1,000 or more, right? 324 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,000 So it's an "or." 325 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:56,000 If it was an "and," then it would be I have a fiduciary obligation and I received money. 326 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,000 I'd get free consultations, so somebody could schedule a free consultation, 327 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,000 and now I have a fiduciary obligation, even though they're not a client. 328 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,000 So maybe change the "or" to an "and." 329 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:12,000 Do you think RPC will still be conflicted? 330 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,000 Yeah, I mean, you're conflicted. 331 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,000 If they just counsel with me, I'm conflicted. 332 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,000 They don't pay me. 333 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:28,000 So the way it's written, there is no hard threshold in dollar amount, is what you're saying? 334 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:33,000 For attorneys, for anybody who has a fiduciary obligation. 335 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,000 If I hire, let's say the mayor owns a roofing company, 336 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,000 and I hire him to put a roof on my house for $500, 337 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:46,000 there's no fiduciary obligation or fiduciary relationship between a roofer and his client or customer. 338 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:52,000 And I'm only paying $500, so now the mayor would not be conflicted out and would be okay to vote. 339 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:58,000 If I pay him $1,500, now he's conflicted out. You know what I'm saying? 340 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:06,000 Yeah, but today's economy and everything else, I just think we're living in a price that's way back when. 341 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,000 Yeah, $1,000 is nothing. 342 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:16,000 I mean, that's just, we're actually allowing them not to do anything at all at that price. 343 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:23,000 If you can do it, you just can't vote on an item if it's a person that you have a conflicting interest with, 344 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:29,000 comes before your board, your body, because it's preventing you. 345 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:36,000 Unless you're serving every, unless every person in business and debt is in business with you for more than $1,000, 346 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,000 you could still do business and still be on council. 347 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:50,000 I've Googled with the value of $1,000 20 years ago versus now, and it would be about $2,000, according to Google. 348 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,000 I kind of like the $2,500 number. 349 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:01,000 And to your point, this definition creates two ways that you would become a client, right? 350 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:06,000 Either you owe a fiduciary duty, there's a number of ways you can do that, 351 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:13,000 or you've done business greater than $1,000 under the current definition within the last 24 months. 352 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,000 You can also satisfy that both ways, right? 353 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:22,000 If you did and, if you would have to be both, so anybody who didn't know a fiduciary duty to, 354 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,000 no matter how much you paid them, would not be, would not get this definition. 355 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,000 I would prefer an and. 356 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:40,000 There is, I'm going to get backlash for this one, but I think there is a smaller chance of one of our city officials 357 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:49,000 not recusing themselves than there is somebody intentionally causing a conflict. 358 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:58,000 I would like to think all of our city officials will recuse themselves and stay far away from that gray line. 359 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:05,000 And so I think the and is better because it makes it harder to intentionally conflict out our city officials. 360 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,000 I like the and. 361 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,000 I like the and. 362 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:13,000 So you have to have the fiduciary relationship, oh, fiduciary relationship, and $1,000 though. 363 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,000 A roofer would never owe a fiduciary relationship, so. 364 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:27,000 If you did an exception for a person who formed one through a consul or something like that. 365 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:36,000 You could put, you could have this and add to here and did business greater than whatever number you find. 366 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000 Yeah. 367 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,000 So then you cash in both. 368 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,000 That's what. 369 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,000 Or. 370 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,000 Yeah. 371 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,000 Or. 372 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,000 Right. 373 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,000 So you wouldn't say. 374 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,000 So we're just putting, we're putting the value on both. 375 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,000 On both sides. 376 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,000 On both sides of the order. 377 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,000 Oh, I like that. 378 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,000 I like that better too. 379 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,000 And then you can have different numbers if you want. 380 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:01,000 That's what you. 381 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,000 I really don't care how we resolve this. 382 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:13,000 I do know that city council members have a history of feeling very strongly about some of these issues. 383 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,000 I guess I want them to know you can, you can change something. 384 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,000 Right. 385 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,000 Don't do what you did before. 386 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,000 Well, I think there's. 387 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,000 I'm not going to talk on behalf of them, but I am. 388 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 I think when people spend their time and energy to try to help their city. 389 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000 And not everybody on there has conflict of interest. 390 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000 Nobody's, you know, trying to do something. 391 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,000 And you get hit with these, what I call, things that you feel like you can't breathe. 392 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,000 I can see why they're resentful. 393 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,000 I mean, I understand that. 394 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,000 We're sitting there almost as police people trying to keep them in line. 395 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,000 And, you know, so I understand that. 396 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,000 Because I've been in that thing for a long time. 397 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,000 I get that. 398 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,000 But I also think there's some really quality people that do work in Denton, Texas. 399 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:04,000 That want to feel like they can continue to do their work in Denton, Texas. 400 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:10,000 And feel like they're not on the board and are in conflict of our rules. 401 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:16,000 Yeah, I just would say that the way this code is written. 402 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:24,000 They focus on very little tiny things, rather than the bigger things that are more of a concern. 403 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:29,000 Like, I don't think recusal should be a huge fight. 404 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:37,000 Some of the definitions in the glossary are pretty tight, pretty stringent. 405 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,000 And so, yeah, I know these are rules. 406 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:46,000 But I think if everybody has the rules, you know, we're not doing it to be mean to people. 407 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,000 We're just saying, these are the parameters. 408 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:59,000 I don't think the City Council thinks that we're trying to just stick it to them. 409 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:04,000 I think they're concerned with what it could mean. 410 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:11,000 Again, just speaking as an attorney, it's so easy to create that fiduciary relationship with an attorney. 411 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:19,000 That, I mean, Jill could get conflicted out of every single vote there ever was. 412 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,000 And then she would be like, okay, well, I guess I'll just sit here and not collect a paycheck. 413 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,000 I could waste my time because I can't vote on anything. 414 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:35,000 And so we don't want that to happen. 415 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:44,000 I would say I like the way we just changed it, maybe leave the $1,000 alone. 416 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:52,000 Or change it to $2,000. 417 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,000 And it is also within the last two years. 418 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:03,000 I just want to point that out, too, for discussion. 419 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,000 Opinions? 420 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:15,000 Because hopefully this is something we're going to vote on in the next thing. 421 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,000 Will you add duty behind fiduciary? 422 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,000 Oh, yes. 423 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,000 The top one? 424 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Yeah. 425 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:38,000 So you would look at you if you had it still in there. 426 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,000 So are you ready to move on? 427 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,000 We didn't change that value. 428 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:49,000 I heard some discussion of $5,000, $2,500, $2,000, but I didn't get clear direction. 429 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,000 This is not, this $1,000 we haven't really gotten clear direction on either. 430 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,000 That was just something that I put in there based on the law. 431 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:02,000 I didn't get clear direction on what number you would like to propose. 432 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,000 I personally like the $2,500. 433 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:11,000 I like $2,000 because it's all zeros. 434 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,000 That would be $1,000 a year because it covers 24 months, right? 435 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,000 $1,000 a year. 436 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,000 $2,000 sounds, what do you think? 437 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,000 I'd like to say $2,500 because I have that in my brain. 438 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:26,000 You know. 439 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,000 Yeah, I think $2,500 is fine. 440 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,000 I don't feel strongly about any one of those numbers. 441 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,000 A different $2,500, $2,000. 442 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,000 Let's go with $2,500. 443 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,000 It kind of seems like it's splitting the difference. 444 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,000 It's not $5,000. 445 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,000 Yeah. 446 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,000 I mean, we've given a little, but. 447 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,000 Yeah. 448 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,000 I think if someone. 449 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,000 But I do like all zeros. 450 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,000 I think if a city official has done $2,500 worth of work for someone, 451 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,000 then they do have a conflict of interest. 452 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,000 Yeah. 453 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,000 And they shouldn't recuse themselves. 454 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,000 Yeah. 455 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,000 True. 456 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:07,000 So whether or not that work was commissioned in good faith or not, 457 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:13,000 they have a conflict. 458 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:21,000 Do we even need the fiduciary duty part? 459 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,000 I didn't understand what you were asking. 460 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,000 I would take it out. 461 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,000 I don't know that we need the fiduciary duty part if they're exactly the same. 462 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,000 Yeah. 463 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,000 Right, because it's inclusive. 464 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,000 Right. 465 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,000 Necessarily. 466 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,000 Right. 467 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:43,000 I would take it out. 468 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,000 So it just owes money? 469 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,000 Yeah, just that there's money. 470 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,000 Yeah. 471 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:54,000 Or clear. 472 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,000 Yeah. 473 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:02,000 Just that relationship doesn't serve us. 474 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,000 Okay. 475 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,000 Are we ready to move on? 476 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,000 Yes. 477 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,000 Okay. 478 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:21,000 Next for a blank note. 479 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,000 This part we kind of -- this part we discussed last time, 480 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:34,000 and then this is just adding the kind of timelines around disclosure requirements 481 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,000 that we discussed last time as well. 482 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:56,000 We'll just write and see how things look, and we don't even have it now. 483 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:01,000 I like it. 484 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,000 Any other slides? 485 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,000 You're fine? 486 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,000 I'm fine, but I think we worked hard on this last week. 487 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,000 Yeah, we did. 488 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,000 We did. 489 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,000 Just so you can see it. 490 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,000 Okay, and that's all really of what I'm calling proposal one, 491 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,000 which is to kind of restructure and adjust the conflict of interest. 492 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,000 Okay. 493 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:29,000 Proposal two is what previously would have been known as the burden of proof. 494 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:37,000 But really what it's doing is clarifying the evidentiary standard anyway, 495 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,000 so now it's called the responsibility to establish price. 496 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,000 This is a language that we've discussed previously. 497 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,000 I really like that wording. 498 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,000 I think that's a lot more -- you know, 499 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,000 because I think it's going to keep people from, you know, 500 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:59,000 getting really emotional and finding a complaint where there are no facts, 501 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:09,000 which happens. 502 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,000 So any questions or comments? 503 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:22,000 Also, we think you know that we're seeing it on the screen. 504 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,000 I like it. 505 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,000 Yep. 506 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,000 Are we ready to move on? 507 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,000 The two babies? 508 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,000 Yeah. 509 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:40,000 Okay. 510 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,000 I think they're nice and clean. 511 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:49,000 There's no surprising fluff. 512 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,000 So then I guess that would be the end of this item. 513 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,000 The next one will be the letter, and I can pull that up. 514 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,000 Okay. 515 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,000 This is the language we're going for. 516 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:05,000 So are we ready to move on to item C? 517 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:11,000 Item C, BOE25-009. 518 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,000 Item C, BOE25-009. 519 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,000 Receive a report, hold a discussion, 520 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,000 and take necessary action regarding forwarding proposals 521 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,000 to amend the City of Denton Code of Ordinances, 522 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:31,000 Chapter 2, Article 11, Ethics to the City Council. 523 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:39,000 Here's the draft letter for the proposals. 524 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,000 Just kind of trying to briefly summarize the changes. 525 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,000 We'll also do a presentation as part of the work session 526 00:34:46,000 --> 00:35:11,000 discussion with the City Council. 527 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:17,000 It looks good to me. 528 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,000 I wonder if we could put our City Council member lens on 529 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:38,000 to see if there's anything that's going to draw fireworks. 530 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,000 Why don't you make it yourself? 531 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,000 How's that? 532 00:35:43,000 --> 00:36:03,000 Yes. 533 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,000 The fourth column, the summary of change title, 534 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:12,000 is it truly a summary or is it more a rationale 535 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:17,000 for the change or an explanation of the change? 536 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,000 I tried to summarize my understanding 537 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,000 of what the change was doing. 538 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:42,000 You can change that if you would like to. 539 00:36:42,000 --> 00:37:07,000 Any concerns you see with that first? 540 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,000 I like the proposal a heck of a lot better than the other one. 541 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,000 I think it spelled it out a little bit better. 542 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:21,000 Yeah, I think we're just trying to be more clear, mostly. 543 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,000 I think it creates a different test, 544 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,000 but it expands what is included, what would be included in there. 545 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,000 Currently, I've been trying to think through this, 546 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,000 but I haven't all the way. 547 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,000 Currently, when you're trying to determine 548 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,000 how points of interest you say is, 549 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:44,000 do I meet one of these conflicting interest standards, 550 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,000 all of which are incorporated into the ordinance still? 551 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:54,000 Do they own $16 of fair market value in the business? 552 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,000 Did they vote on a pending matter involving that person? 553 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,000 That's the current test. 554 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,000 This test still asks, was there that relationship 555 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,000 that creates a conflict of interest? 556 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:16,000 Did they act or fail to act in their city official responsibilities? 557 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,000 It does broaden it, in a way. 558 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:24,000 Yes, it absolutely broadens it. 559 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,000 I can try to think through explaining that a little better. 560 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,000 The other one was so narrow that once you vote it, you're good. 561 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:40,000 You can do whatever you want to, basically, technically. 562 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,000 That's the concern. 563 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:50,000 The old one, the conflicting, it arose when you were voting on a pending matter. 564 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,000 Under the proposal, it would arise when you were deliberating, 565 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,000 which is a broader scope. 566 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:04,000 Also, after you vote. 567 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,000 Deliberation includes a lot of things that a pending matter didn't. 568 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:14,000 The pending matter didn't require you to recuse from deliberations. 569 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:25,000 We're just taking away a step, essentially. 570 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,000 All of the relationships are really very similar that create a conflicting interest, 571 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,000 except we're creating the client relationship that's being added, 572 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:40,000 and there's a little bit of difference in the familial relationships. 573 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,000 Do we need to vote on each one of these things as we look at them, 574 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,000 or do we need to vote on the whole thing? 575 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:56,000 We voted on each proposal separately previously. 576 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,000 It's easy for me. 577 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:04,000 This is part of the first proposal's explanation. 578 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,000 It has three pieces. 579 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,000 It expands the definition, or expands when a conflict arises. 580 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,000 That's what's summarized here. 581 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,000 It eliminates the timelines for disclosure, 582 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:22,000 and then it adjusts the conflicting interests, 583 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:29,000 the relationships that create conflict. 584 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,000 That's the first proposal. 585 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,000 It does all three of those things. 586 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:40,000 Then the second proposal is the one that clarifies evidentiary standards, 587 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:47,000 the other is the approved section, changing that to what we're calling it now. 588 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,000 Supplying information, basically. 589 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,000 It's facts. 590 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,000 It's responsibility to establish facts. 591 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,000 I really do like that term. 592 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,000 Enter into. 593 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,000 We have one underlined that says "entered into." 594 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,000 I want to see if you've added that in or you're trying to take that out. 595 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,000 I want to back it up just a little bit. 596 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,000 There you go. 597 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,000 There it is. 598 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,000 Pending matters. 599 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:25,000 Are you trying to enter into, are you trying to take that out or keep that in? 600 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,000 The change would remove pending matter. 601 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,000 Okay, so it's removing that? 602 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,000 Yes. 603 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,000 That's underlined because of the grammar checker. 604 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,000 Oh, yeah. 605 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,000 That's not intentional. 606 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:44,000 Okay. 607 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:51,000 Anybody else have any questions on this first three-part piece? 608 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,000 I think that looks good. 609 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:05,000 Is there anyone ready to, someone ready to move that we vote? 610 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:13,000 I'll make a motion that we doesn't think of. 611 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,000 Because you're going to make the changes to that client definition. 612 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:32,000 So you're going to, does that reflect what you're going to make? 613 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,000 Yes. 614 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,000 Okay. 615 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,000 I'll make your motion. 616 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:44,000 So moving that we recommend the changes to the Code of Ordinance to City Council. 617 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,000 Contained is a letter provided by staff with the following amendments. 618 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:55,000 One, in the definition of client located in Section 2-269, strike the clause of business, 619 00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:02,000 a person or business entity to which the City Council owes a fiduciary in its entirety. 620 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:08,000 And two, in the definition of client located in Section 2-269, strike the dollar amount, 621 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:15,000 $1,000 and replace it with the dollar amount, $2,500. 622 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,000 Is that right? 623 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,000 I'll second that. 624 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,000 Can I get a second to that? 625 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:25,000 Can I get a second that you mess it up to me or Joey? 626 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,000 Scott will make sure to put that motion back. 627 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,000 I never would have gotten that right. 628 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,000 Thank you. 629 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,000 I wondered what you were typing. 630 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,000 So thank you. 631 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:34,000 That was helpful. 632 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,000 Okay, so that takes care of -- 633 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,000 The motion -- 634 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,000 Now we need to vote. 635 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:48,000 Okay, all in favor of the very lengthy motion that we just heard. 636 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,000 Aye. 637 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,000 It's unanimous. 638 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,000 Okay. 639 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,000 Thank you, Scott. 640 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,000 So we're ready to move on to -- 641 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:06,000 Second proposal. 642 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:26,000 So amend Section 2-281 sub C sub 4 to clarify the evidentiary standard of review for Board of Ethics hearings. 643 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:52,000 I'll just go ahead and read it, this proposal clarifies the evidentiary standard of review to be used during Board of Ethics hearings by requiring the complainant to present sufficient facts to establish that it is reasonably certain that a violation of the ethics ordinance has occurred. 644 00:44:52,000 --> 00:45:01,000 There is not currently a clearly stated evidentiary standard of review. 645 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,000 I am very happy with that. 646 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:08,000 I just think that is a much better -- what we need to do. 647 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,000 I have just a question. 648 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,000 Yes. 649 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:12,000 I'm trying to cause trouble, but -- 650 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,000 Oh, you're such a troublemaker. 651 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,000 Reasonable, certain. 652 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,000 Reasonably certain. 653 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,000 What does that mean to me? 654 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,000 Is it facts, objective, subjective? 655 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,000 What does that mean? 656 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,000 That doesn't sound legal standard, right? 657 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,000 That is the second highest burden. 658 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,000 This is the burden beyond a reasonable doubt. 659 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:45,000 So reasonably certain. 660 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:55,000 I would say the evidence presented to you as part of the hearing makes you reasonably certain that whatever violation was alleged occurred. 661 00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:01,000 So not like it probably happened or not like it absolutely happened, but I'm pretty sure it probably happened. 662 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,000 Does that help? 663 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,000 You're like 75%. 664 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:09,000 Don't they kind of use an example of a reasonable person? 665 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:15,000 I've not been in law school for that long. 666 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,000 They do use a reasonable person as a standard. 667 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:26,000 I don't know if that is part of this. 668 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,000 Because you're not -- 669 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:35,000 I don't think in any of this you could ever be certain beyond -- 670 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,000 That's the highest -- that's the criminal standard. 671 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:46,000 We're in civil territory, so we're reasonably certain is like we're pretty sure this happened. 672 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,000 More than -- 673 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,000 Diane, let me ask you, do you think that's too high of a standard or too low of a standard? 674 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,000 I don't like the word certain. 675 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:09,000 Because to me, I work in subjective objective world, and I know people challenge us always if we don't have what I call subjective evaluation of anything. 676 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:17,000 And so I think that leaves it open to -- I think it's too low of a standard. 677 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:18,000 That's what I was asking. 678 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,000 Yeah, and that's why I asked for clarification if you thought it was too low or too high. 679 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:28,000 I think I was trying to close the gate. 680 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:29,000 Is it reasonably -- 681 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:37,000 This is a pretty high standard legally for civil matters, I believe. 682 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,000 What would you think would be a better way? 683 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,000 I don't know. 684 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,000 It's just somebody needs to help me. 685 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:50,000 But reasonably certain is like -- it's almost a guessing that it's happening. 686 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:55,000 And I'd rather know it's -- we have made a decision that isn't happening. 687 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,000 However we say that, I don't know that. 688 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:11,000 I personally am at the viewpoint that if it's good enough language for the law and in a court, 689 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:20,000 then I think it is good enough to be considered in a civil suit because this is all civil. 690 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:26,000 So I'm thinking that in my opinion, if it's good enough for the course, then it's good enough for this code. 691 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:32,000 I think the certainty that you're describing is what this is, I believe so. 692 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:45,000 And when we're actually having a hearing, we can talk through what that means in a way that maybe is a little more suited to how to instruct y'all and how to view the evidence. 693 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:50,000 I agree if it's good enough for the court, it's good enough for us. 694 00:48:50,000 --> 00:49:00,000 So that's kind of why I asked him what he thought because I don't want us to have loopholes that people can wander in. 695 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:06,000 I know they'll try, but I'd like to close the door on whatever we're saying. 696 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:15,000 So if the law's saying this is a word we can use, I accept it, absolutely. 697 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:28,000 Okay. Are there any other questions or concerns about this second part? 698 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:38,000 Are we ready for a motion? 699 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:45,000 I'll make a motion if I can help him, Scott. 700 00:49:45,000 --> 00:50:00,000 So I make a motion that we accept the language as proposed for to amend section 2.281(c)(4) to clarify the evidentiary standard to review for the Board of Ethics hearings. 701 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:15,000 Do we need to recommend it to the City Council? 702 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:30,000 All in favor? All right. It's unanimous. 703 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,000 So this will be presented to the City Council on March 4th during work session. 704 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:41,000 I don't know what item it will be at this point, but we will add it. 705 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,000 So did you say March 4th? 706 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,000 And then we'll have our meeting then from one week. 707 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:55,000 I will include an update on what occurred during that meeting. 708 00:50:55,000 --> 00:51:10,000 Okay. So we are moving on now to item D, BOE 25-010, receive a report, hold discussion, and give staff direction regarding future meeting topics. 709 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,000 I have some. 710 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,000 Yeah. Okay. So go ahead and -- 711 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,000 You want me to wait? 712 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,000 Go ahead. 713 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:27,000 I have two, and it's been drilling my head all my life, so I'm struggling. I want you guys to un-drill it. 714 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:36,000 I was taken back the other day when we did not have a closed meeting on the complaint, the first meeting. 715 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:42,000 I do believe in rights of human beings, and I do think you have a right to hear your complaint. 716 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:55,000 But I think it's very important that the three-person committee have a right to discuss it in closed doors first, because it might not come up for debate. 717 00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:01,000 In other words, we might shoot it down. So why have a sleeping dog wake up? 718 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:11,000 I do know that when the board very first began, that is how they did it. And at some point before I got on, it became completely open. 719 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:15,000 I would like to discuss that at the next meeting, give some people. 720 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:36,000 The other one, again, has been drilled in my head through all these committees, that we cannot speak about our business without a quorum outside with just regular people. 721 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:48,000 We have to have a quorum to do that. I guess I want to make sure that's not happening, or it's a rule, or it's not a rule. 722 00:52:48,000 --> 00:53:01,000 I think it may be what I think is a very narrow definition of ex parte communication. 723 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:09,000 What we do here is very serious business, in my opinion, and I think there should be a sense of professionalism. 724 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:18,000 Again, I agree totally with fairness and complaints, but I do think that we have the higher standards. 725 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:27,000 This committee does, and I don't think that we should share information without our whole committee being involved in it. 726 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:34,000 And I don't think that we should not be able to have closed meetings when we need to discuss something that's very important. 727 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:35,000 Can I ask a question? 728 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,000 Sure. 729 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:42,000 Well, actually, that would be good. Am I already discussing it or not? 730 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:54,000 My question is, what kind of communication are you concerned about, like going to the newspaper, giving an interview, or are you talking at home with your spouse about what you discussed at the meeting? 731 00:53:54,000 --> 00:54:05,000 I'm talking about maybe these people leave here, they've had a meeting with us, and they go outside, and they catch me by the car, and they want to discuss something that we talked about. 732 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,000 I don't think I should discuss that. 733 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,000 Okay, okay. 734 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,000 Do you want to add this to the next meeting? 735 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,000 Yeah. 736 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,000 Because we're just supposed to be bringing up things. 737 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:14,000 Do what now? 738 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,000 We're just supposed to be bringing up things, too. 739 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,000 Okay, well, I'd like to discuss that next time, if I could. 740 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:20,000 Okay. 741 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:21,000 I'm just trying to answer your question. 742 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:26,000 Yeah, and that's why I was questioning myself, that I was already starting to discuss it, rather than- 743 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:27,000 Sorry, did we get on- 744 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:28,000 No, that's- 745 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,000 Yeah. 746 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,000 Would that be okay, if we could discuss that? 747 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:39,000 Well, let's look at what's on the next, and those are possibilities. 748 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:53,000 The only thing for the next agenda that we have currently scheduled are the minutes, and they'll be, at the very least, a management update about what occurred at the account meeting. 749 00:54:53,000 --> 00:55:07,000 So these are things that have previously come up that are listed here, but we're pretty open for the next couple of months, whatever the board wishes to discuss. 750 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:14,000 I would actually like to support that, and especially the closed meeting situation about special meetings. 751 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:18,000 That is something I would agree with. 752 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,000 We definitely need to. 753 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:25,000 After I brought this up, I'm not going to be here much. 754 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:32,000 I'm going to be in Florida, so I don't know if I have to, you know, bring it back to another date, or you want to discuss it without me. 755 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,000 I'm fine, and I can listen, or- 756 00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:39,000 We can always schedule it for April. 757 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:46,000 Yeah, I would definitely like to talk about the definition of a complainant. 758 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:57,000 I would think that's an easy thing to discuss. 759 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:10,000 As those other things, are there other things you'd want to talk about? 760 00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:23,000 I think the frivolous sanctions one that should be high enough to discuss. 761 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:32,000 Those are the two that I would pick on. What do you guys want to pick on for our next meeting? 762 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,000 Well, I picked on my two, so- 763 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,000 We can put those for April. 764 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,000 Yeah, that's fine. If you want me to hold on, right? 765 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,000 That way you can be here? 766 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:42,000 Yeah, absolutely. 767 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:46,000 Okay. 768 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,000 I trust you guys. 769 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:54,000 I would definitely say, man, there's so many other things I'd like to pick on, 770 00:56:54,000 --> 00:57:11,000 but I think that along with what you're saying for April, the definition of ex parte is very narrow. 771 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:16,000 Do you guys see anything else on that list that should be discussed in the next meeting? 772 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:20,000 I'm trying to define something, because the definition of complainant, 773 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:25,000 and I'm thinking that's not going to take up too much. 774 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:32,000 It's a human. That's what the definition is. 775 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:44,000 I think the review of the current sanctions and frivolous sanctions, I think that kind of goes hand in hand there. 776 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,000 Anything else? 777 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:50,000 The review of current sanctions, frivolous sanctions, I think is timely. 778 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:58,000 We're going to have elections coming up, and we might get frivolous complaints. 779 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:08,000 I don't want to touch campaign complaints. 780 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:13,000 Okay, so is that pretty clear? 781 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:25,000 My understanding is that we might have a discussion in March about the definition of complainant, 782 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:31,000 and begin a discussion of frivolous sanctions, 783 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:36,000 and then in April have a discussion about ex parte communication 784 00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:41,000 and potentially making preliminary assessments of those meetings. 785 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:46,000 I don't know if that's possible, but we'll find out. 786 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:55,000 Okay, any other business? 787 00:58:55,000 --> 00:59:02,000 I think we are done, so it is now hearing no comments. 788 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:07,000 It is 629 PM, and this meeting is adjourned.