All right, well, we are here at the Mobility Committee of the City of Denton, Wednesday,
January 29th, starting at 10 a.m. We're in the council work session room.
It looks like we have a quorum, and so we're going to convene at this regular meeting.
Item number one, citizens' comment on agenda items, do we have any kind of citizens' comments
or anything?
Okay, so we'll move on, no citizens' comment.
Move on to item number two, for individual consideration, AMC 25-001, consider approval
of the minutes of December the 18th, 2024.
How can we get a motion?
I move approval of the minutes as submitted.
I'll second.
All right, are there any decisions?
Let's see, everybody's in approval of that, and it stands.
So we'll move on to B, AMC 25-002, receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the
City of Denton Transportation Mobility Project status report.
John.
John Poster.
Good morning.
This is John Poster.
John Poster, Innovative Transportation Solutions.
So we'll go over the meeting, the report today, we've got some updates to give you.
Oh, may I interject here?
Absolutely.
Just remind the community, we're not having these reports every month, they're coming
on a quarterly basis now.
Is that right?
Yes.
I show up whenever you tell me to.
Okay.
Okay, so I'm going to get down a little bit smaller, I think.
So we'll just start here.
35 North has multiple sections.
The thing to note on this today is that the 074, I don't know why that's there.
How do you get rid of that?
Well, I'll move it up.
074 project, which is his yellow job, TechStat is going to be breaking that up into multiple
plan sets.
It should say that right down here.
These are the utilities.
So it'll be broken into three different projects, because 074 is over the dollar amount that
they like to bid.
So they're going to be breaking 074 into three different projects and starting from
basically 77, where the merge job ends and start moving north.
And so that will delay our ready to let date because of the breakout of the plans for 074
to January 26, which is basically four months later than what it was originally.
We were in like September 25, which is still in the same fiscal year because their fiscal
year started in September and goes through August.
So they didn't move it out of that 26 fiscal year.
They just moved it from September to January so they can break those projects into three
sets.
It shouldn't impact anything that y'all are going to see.
Go ahead.
I had a question.
I think you just answered the question, it shouldn't impact, but my question was going
to be, is that going to slow down any of the other projects?
So if you look at 074, it's $495 million, and anything over 150 has to go through a
value engineering.
And what's happening is when they get to projects that have these higher dollar amounts, they
get fewer bidders, and they don't get as much competition.
So when they break them up into smaller projects, they open it up for additional bidders, and
they get better prices.
Yeah, because I kind of noticed that it was always the same companies on these large--
Well, it's always going to be the same companies because there's only so many companies that
can do it.
Right.
For example, on the next project you're going to look at, that was a $555 million project.
Text, I got two bidders on that because it was that big, and they said we're not doing
that anymore.
So they're going to break up these big jobs into smaller ones.
Oh, okay.
That's interesting.
We have a question here.
This is a follow-on from Cher's question, and that is that four-month delay is going
to be a four-month delay for everything.
We're going to expect all the other layouts to--
Yeah, so are you doing utility relocations regardless because the utilities are clearing
the whole 074 section.
How textile lets it is irrelevant to the utility coordination.
So those utilities are still moving, and those are-- we're going to be having the plants
done during that time that the utilities are relocating.
Okay.
So they'll just have a break between each project section.
If they're going to do the whole utility coordination, they're going to start south to north.
That way, when the south starts, they're already cleared from that section, and we'll just
move forward on them as we go north.
So utilities are still being moved during that same time.
We're not just waiting for the plans.
We've still got utilities to move.
Yeah.
Appreciate that.
Thank you.
It gets worse.
Okay, so those are all the utilities that need to be moved.
So the merge, the key right here is it says January 25.
This project actually went under-- fully under the knife contractually January 13th.
There's still a slight delay because there's a couple of utilities that won't be out of
the way until February, but by come summer, this project will be fully engulfed in construction
trauma.
And it's 56 months.
Trauma from your mama.
Yeah.
I'm not sure I like John's adjectives.
Well, you'll see in a second why I'm telling you that.
56 months doesn't sound like four and a half years, does it?
No.
Oh my gosh.
It feels more like seven.
It's like marriage years.
They always seem longer.
Marriage years.
Doggy.
Don't touch that.
Gotta go through it to get to it.
Hope our watch not watching.
So here's why I'm saying this.
Mayhill.
This is a $139 million job and it takes not just Mayhill, but it does the northbound frontage
road all the way to 288 and the bypass is a brinker.
So that whole area is going to be under the knife and it lets in June.
So by the time the merge is fully engulfed, by the end of the year, you won't be able
to escape southward because this will start.
And if you're trying to get across the lake going into Louisville, you're going to hit
Main Street and we just let the 121 corporate drive this month and that's another 56-month
project.
So everywhere you go on 35 in Denton County is going to look like we did during the 2012
to 2014 timeframe.
Well I will say that the Mayhill project has just been great.
Absolutely.
I have had some concerns and a little pushback about the not being able to make that right
turn going over into, you know, and so you know it's just a growing pain.
I go there almost every day, twice a day, and I'm fine with it because and that you
wouldn't have gotten the money from COG if you hadn't gotten rid of that grade.
Well you know and it's just a matter of just getting used to it.
Absolutely.
Just getting used to it.
And I'm communicating that with my constituents over there that have been, you know, upset
about it.
I don't know the other words.
So we can't get out of town is what you're telling.
We have to either go to McKinney or Decatur.
And you're not going to be able, if we're successful on 35W, you're not going to be
able to go down 35W either.
Wow.
Okay, well it's our turn.
I know we're being glib and we're laughing about the upcoming pain.
I'm not.
My real question is certainly flow is included in forecast planning and not just when the
legislature releases the budget so that tech stock can do the projects.
So how are we, because we're, at least the three council people, if not the other two
mobility commissioners, are going to hear on a weekly, if not daily basis about how
they can't move around Denton and the Metroplex?
Two points.
So help us provide feedback to that.
Two points is we know that because of the emerge, the 35W, the frontage roads, May Hill,
and then all the trauma in Louisville, that we will have a heightened POI process and
we will do more outreach.
So similar to what we've done on the design builds project where part of the contract
will include public involvement where they go out and outreach and we'll have business
outreaches on what's going to impact you in that time frame, how the traffic is going
to change.
It's a little bit more static and a little bit more predictable because this is a design
bid build, which means that all the traffic control has to be approved prior to being
implemented, which on a design build, it's called dynamic traffic control, which means
they can change it daily if they want, which is why they can get done faster.
So we have a, we've been working with the district to bring in a higher level of public
involvement where we do geo-fencing around these folks and then send the information
out to people and we'll put up a public information website where they can go on and give us their
emails and we can send them out daily updates on what's going to happen today and just try
to get the information out to them as best we can and keep them informed.
Second is we build the roads when the money comes and the money never comes slowly, it
comes all at once or it doesn't come at all and this has happened multiple times and we
just, we build the roads when we get the money.
So there was a period of time, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, where every road in Flower Mound,
Allen Village, Bartonville, Double Oak was under the knife and we're talking 30/40, 24/99,
three sections of 24/99, two sections of 407 and you just couldn't get out and for seven
years it was horrible.
There was, at one point, and I do not suggest doing this, where the town of Flower Mound
put a sign up at the corner of 407 and 24/99, said if you don't like the way this project's
going, call this number and it was Buzz Ellsworth's cell phone number and he was the area engineer
so that didn't go over well.
I don't think we'll do that to him.
So they don't, they don't chime it.
These projects are like a racehorse, right?
You get seven horses in the block, you don't know who's going to fit across the finish
line first, but as they go across the line, they're in the money, you fund them.
So the way we did it, these are all going to hit at the same time and they'll all be
built at the same time.
I appreciate that.
I'm going to request that you, when we have these quarterly mobility meetings, but to
the extent that staff and/or you, whichever is appropriate, can help us, help you spread
the message, it's going to relieve pain on us as we relieve the pain of the citizens.
So what we do is, off cycle from meeting with y'all, we still meet with staff monthly and
that includes Tech Start district and Ridaway and all those folks.
So we're just not getting to the point where we need to flesh out the public involvement
side of it.
When we're doing the same thing in Rockwell County, they're doing I-30 through, all through
Rockwell County.
Well Rockwell County's never experienced what they're going through now, which is a full-on
interstate reconstruction and they go to Dallas and Dallas is under construction.
So we had a high level of public involvement system set up between the Dallas district,
the contractor, the county, and the city PIO offices and they meet every two weeks and
they've created an email chain where they get out the word, they put it on their PSA
saying, "If you want information on this project, send us your email and we'll send out these
daily reports."
And so it seemed to help.
Let me get that out again.
No, I appreciate that.
It seemed to help.
That feedback will help keep tempers down.
Yeah.
And what are we going to see in 56 months?
What are the improvements?
Okay.
So on the merge, you're going to go from the three lanes that you have, it goes down to
two as you're going north, it'll be six lanes all the way through, but from the merge to
380, we'll be building the future toll manage lanes in their future existence.
So if you know anything about 407 at 35E, that bridge, that's the ultimate bridge and
there's that big pavement out in the middle that nobody's using, those will be the toll
manage lanes.
So we're adding the additional lane in each direction, we're adding two lanes for the
ramping.
So what happens when you come from 35W to 35, 35 is you go from two lanes to one and
then that one lane merges at the same time the frontage road's coming on, and then all
those people try to get on the freeway and then off, there'll be braided ramps between
the merge and 380, so you can get on and off at the same location.
So your exit ramp will be at grade, your on ramp will be over.
It's just like if you go down towards Western Center Boulevard on 35W, just north Fort Worth,
those are braided ramps.
So they're on and off at the same location, they'll happen on both sides, which should
reduce the conflict, and then we're going to get through 380 and go all the way to 288,
almost 77, and that way you'll be able to flow through.
No modification 35W into 35?
Yes, that's exactly what we're doing, is that ramping that will come from 35W will have
two lanes that go into sort of lane balancing.
So you'll still only have 3 lanes, but you'll have 2 lanes of 35W being able to merge into
35, because we'll also be taking the on ramp traffic that conflicts right there, a separate
structure.
I can send you a schematic.
It'll go up and over the exit ramp, and then it'll have its own entrance into the main
lanes.
I would sure like to see that.
It's not a problem.
Yeah, I would love to have that schematic too.
It's not a problem.
Will it include the airport road that's going to be here in a slide or two?
It will include the access on 1515, it won't include 1515, that's a separate project which
you'll see.
But where 1515 merges in, it'll include that?
Absolutely, we're doing that with the 35 merge job.
And so we won't have that left turn at Bonnie Bray anymore?
I don't have the schematic memorized, but I can check it, but yes, it was to improve
connectivity.
Okay, what about the guy on 1515 that wants to go south on 35W, and I don't mean to be
skipping ahead.
It's okay.
That's why they give you this roller ball thing on the, so I don't know if you can see
that and I don't know if I can see it, but it ties, it's supposed to be able to tie in
so you can come straight across and go right on to Bonnie Bray, similar to what you're
doing now, but changing the grade.
So it won't impact your access, you'll still have to do the same thing, but we'll go give
you the whole schematic for that because I think we did make some improvements to Bonnie
Bray, access to the 35 merge in that area as well.
So it's been a long time since it's been cleared, I just got to go back and send it to you and
let's look at it.
We'll get it to Scott and company.
That's just a complicated, it's complicated for me and I'm familiar with it.
I can't imagine what it must be like for a newcomer.
Right.
Okay, guys, we need to move on, we just have about another 10 minutes so we can get through
the rest of them.
Thank you all for that was good.
Thank you.
Okay, so I think where I was, so we talked about mail, it's going to start in earnest
in June and by the end of the year, it'll be fully engulfed as well.
Your frontage roads, we are right now, we have 213 million text, Dallas has submitted
the remainder of the funding, the Delta, the 200 million or so.
They're trying to get that through category 12 funds, which are commissioned.
So then go ahead and do the whole 416 million dollar project right now.
If they don't succeed, we have at the top project that we first talked to you about
the 35 North, we are using this project, the 084 and 116, 084 is in Denton County 116 is
in Cook County, but we're using the money in 084, which is 116 million dollars to cover
cost overruns or change orders for projects in Denton County.
So we're because that part far north where less we lose interest quick, we'll make commission
and pay for it.
So what we're going to do is if they don't get, if we don't know, if we'll know by August
if they got the money in the 26 UTP and as a March 26 ready to let date, so that won't
hurt us.
If they didn't get the funding, then we're going to take some of that money and we're
going to add back in all red because it's not in that plan set right now and apparently
developments breaking out all around all red, so we'll put that back into the plans, but
we don't want to use our money or the allocated if the commission picks it up.
If they don't, then we will, but we're here to tell you that regardless of how it happens,
we're putting all red back in to this job.
Okay, I have a question for Scott in regards to the new home development out there.
These new frontage roads and all of this construction, is that going to be bumping up against each
other or does that have anything to do with this?
It complements the development that's going to be occurring.
Okay, so this is going to happen before the development will get started or they will
all be working.
It'll be in concert, so the single-family homes won't be impacted by this.
Some of the commercial may be, but it's all a benefit and the sooner it happens, the better
off for that corner of Robeson 35.
Okay, great.
On this job, we have all the three parcels acquired, and the three parcels that we don't
have acquired are in eminent domain, so everybody knows where the right-of-way is and are being
purchased one way or the other.
All the developments that are going on in this area are going based on the fact that
the right-of-way has been acquired already for this project or they know what needs to
be done, and so they're developing accordingly.
Okay, thank you.
Anybody else have any questions on this one?
All right.
So, Luke 28 Frontage Roads, basically we're tinkering with the plan set because we're
on hold on the right-of-way because TechStot Austin cut the Dallas District's budget, and
they reduced it from like $700 million to $300 million, and TechStot Dallas already
had about $150 million of projects in eminent domain, and they told them with a penalty
of death not to go with their budget, so the Dallas District just put a full stop on right-of-way
acquisition until September until they get all these EDs dealt with so they know how
much money they have left moving forward, so it's not a big deal because all those projects
I just talked to you about that are going to construction, those all have the right-of-way
acquired already, but it impacts Luke 28, 1171, 377, 1385, 2931, but not the ones I just
talked about.
That's disappointing.
We're gonna get it fixed.
Anybody have any questions about that one?
All right.
We'll move on.
Thank you.
So, this is just the Luke 28.
We're working on this, the environmental clearance.
We're expecting to have a tentative public, see, why does it do that?
Public hearing in April, which means that it drives the schedule.
Once we do April, we think we're for sure by the end of the year we'll have an environment
cleared once it's cleared, it's protected.
We don't have to worry about anybody trying to build something on it.
We just repaired the sidewalks at the 380 and 288 intersection and a little bit past,
right, as part of that whole prior completed project.
For this, because of the bypass and the way we have to construct it with the raised grade
and everything, are we tearing it out and putting it back in?
Is that what's gonna happen?
Are you talking about this area right here?
What's on 380, the segment on 380?
So what's happening is the bypass will be the main lanes going up to 288.
The frontage road system will be bifurcated from the main lanes and you'll still want
to come to this intersection to go north or south if you need to hit something in this
area.
So this will stay exactly the way it is.
So this project does not anticipate impacting anything in that intersection as is.
It's just gonna be the frontage road, the bifurcated frontage road system for the main
lanes that go cross country.
Okay.
I just thought it was just curious because the interface right there and I didn't know
if they'd be...
That's why we're cutting cross country because there was no way to make a direct connection
that close to the intersection on that acute angle.
Yeah.
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Sort of building on what Brian said, I think what he's kind of saying is right there where
if somebody's heading westbound on US 380 and then they hit the new roadway or building,
yes, right there.
So right now there's a pedestrian path between May Hill and the Greenbelt on the north side
or it's a bike path and then there's a sidewalk on the south side.
So I think what he's asking and what I'm also interested in is will there be either uninterrupted
access on the north side for somebody traveling on the side path on the north side along US
380 or if there's a detour, is it gonna be super minor or kind of how is that gonna interact?
I'll get you the schematic to show you exactly, but we have to accommodate the 10 foot shared
use path, whether it's making it go around and under the footing of the bridge or we
have the bridge go over it soon enough to minimize impact, but we have to accommodate
that.
Sure.
That's a federal requirement.
I think amount of detour is what I'm more interested in.
Well, if people like to walk, if they got to walk a little bit farther, I mean, isn't
that better for you?
Anyway.
Well, if it's four or five miles on the road.
I don't walk, so I don't know for sure.
Yeah, I'd appreciate the schematic of how that's gonna interact.
I've got a prenup that precludes elected office.
My wife made me sign it.
So I'll get the schematic check and show you what it does, but yeah, we have to accommodate
the pedestrian amenities.
This is just a part of that job.
1515, it's basically gonna be ready to let in December, we still gotta come up with 69
million bucks.
The good news about this project is the district that headquarters isn't running out of money
per se on construction, because the 26, 27 biennium will be the second highest construction
budget in the history.
It's the right away in consultant budgets that are being impacted.
So this one's got the right of the acquired, the environmental is done, utilities are moving.
So there is a good chance that once we get this ready to let that it will rise to the
top for, because this also is one of those things that your previous elected officials
have made a tentative commitment to take this off system once it's built.
So it would stop being 1515 and just go back to airport road that way you can control it
a little bit better.
But you'd get a brand new six lane divided concrete, you know, 30 year road.
The narrow blue line, oh, I'm sorry, that's indicating in the project.
I'm concerned, I'm on 1515 and I want to go to Fort Worth, how do I do that?
Well, you go up and you see right, I don't have to show you, I'm gonna show you, it's
right there.
So you come up, you make that turn and you run the frontage road and you get on somewhere
down here.
So there's gonna be a way?
Absolutely.
Because there's not a way now.
Well there is a way.
It's just the other way around.
You got to go.
You got to go around.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, literally, there's a way.
It's just not a good way.
Right.
Well, I don't have an answer to that.
No, no answer, don't try.
Okay, we have a question over here.
Just a quick clarification.
So when you say a 30 year road, you're just referring to the idea that this road would
have an expected lifespan of 30 years after initial construction?
The state builds a road that has, I don't know what y'all's design standards are, but
when the state builds a foreign to market, it's supposed to carry 56,000 pounds plus.
And so they'll have six, eight inches of subgrade, four or five inches, Trevor could probably
give it very clearly, sometimes as much as 10 inches being on the soil of an asphalt
base.
And then they'll put 10, 12 inches of concrete that's continuously enforced with rebar.
So it's not the kind of road that a city builds, it's a state facility and they don't like
to go back and repair them.
So they build them for a long life cycle.
All right, thank you.
It's the pavement design that makes them last.
1173, I mean, again, we've got the right of way already acquired, so this one isn't impacted
by anything but money.
Again, we think that by the time we get this ready to let with the fact that they still
have construction money, we'll have a good chance of getting this road funded during
that 26, 27 UTP period.
Outer loop, does anybody want to talk about the outer loop, nothing's really going on?
We had our series of stakeholder meetings back in October and November, and we are analyzing
those comments.
And then once we get them back, LJ will come back to the county and the state, show them
the comments, and then we'll come back to you all and show you what we heard.
And then there's a test on the acronym, it's open book.
I was looking forward to a test.
We had those ABCD subjects, and I know that the implication of your statement a second
ago was we're waiting to figure out what the final alignments of A versus B and C versus
D. You sense which way they're leaning, whether it's Rector or Ganzer or any of the others.
I can tell you, the technically preferred, I got a second question.
The technically preferred alternative is the alternative that ends at Milam.
That's the technically preferred.
But since this is an EIS, an environmental impact statement, which is the highest level,
we have to take two viable alternatives all the way through the EIS process.
So even though we don't think Rector is technically preferred, we have to go through it because
there may be an environmental reason why Rector is more viable than Milam.
So on an environmental assessment, I call these others.
What you do is you find out which is the technically preferred, you try to get it also to be the
locally preferred.
And if you get an alignment that's locally and technically preferred, then that's the
only one you clear.
And the rest of them you dismiss because of random reasons, whether it's environmental
or local government, opposition.
But in an EIS, you got to take two through the entire process.
Okay.
So we started at 78 alignments, and we got them down to four.
So I appreciate the filtering that's gone on.
And well, I mean, it's just obvious, like, you know, Rector affects Sanger and Milam
affects us.
Well, your thoroughfare plan shows the outer loop on Milam, which is part of the environmental
process is called community cohesion.
So to the extent possible, we had to try to follow your thoroughfare plan.
So the county thoroughfare plan, city thoroughfare plan, city Aubrey's thoroughfare plan, pilot
points, Salinas, Collin counties, all points to the technically preferred alignment.
But just because it's there doesn't mean we can't have to, we don't have to look at, and
there's actually three alternatives, two viable and then the no build.
And the no build is if you get through all the process, it's either too environmentally
impactive, or it doesn't fulfill the purpose and need of the document that was you set
as the need at the very beginning of the process.
Sure.
And then my second question was, and we have that lockdown section from the core at the
trestle bridge, but there was some confusion in our last meeting, I've had some more discussions
with various state stakeholders where I'm not clear, so I'm hoping maybe you can clear.
I thought THC didn't like us to move the trestle bridge and there'd been some discussion about
moving the trestle bridge to allow for better right of way development there over that fixed
segment.
Do we have any clarity on that?
So yes, we've got two approaches.
One is propose a deck scenario that stays within the core of engineers footprint and
doesn't impact the trestle bridge.
Get the project cleared, be able to move forward with the rest of the project, come back after
it's cleared and go fight the fight with the core, because you can beat the core of engineers,
it just takes time and money.
But if we want to get the rest of the corridor fixed, we may end up just surrendering the
fight now, staying within the footprint, clearing all of it, and then come back and do a separate
environmental document for that area.
Now the core of engineers will let you go to a wider footprint, and they are less interested
in that trestle bridge than the Texas Parks and Wildlife guys are, and the core supersedes.
So we're going to try to accommodate it, but what we can't do is have a two billion dollar
road that's supposed to be a part of a five county outer loop restricted for future growth
for a half a mile where there's no development.
And what happens is to stack it, you put the frontage roads on the bottom and the main
lanes on top, if at any point there's an accident under, and there's a fire, the whole thing
shut down.
So it doesn't have, what is it, redundancy, and it doesn't have future operability if
we do that.
So that's one.
The second is, Congress has given us 50 million dollars to do that crossing.
And so part of that is we're also partnering with the core of engineers to do that storm
water, transportation storm water initiative, where everywhere this road, this 23 mile dam
impacts any kind of waterway, we're going to go and buy flood rights north of that,
and we are going to impound the water, and not impound it like slowly release it down
the river.
We're going to impound it, make it an aesthetic situation, and then use those impounded waters
to find a way to do best management practices to push the water down into the aquifer to
recharge the aquifer.
And so the core wants that too.
So we figure at some point the core is going to agree to what we want to do because we're
giving them something they want and it's just going to cost us a lot of money.
And right now we don't have any of the money other than the 50 million for fixing the problem
at the crossing.
So we're going to pan that out, and if we think that we can't get it vetted soon, we'll
dip, do the deck, clear the project, and then come back and give us time to do the right
thing there.
I appreciate that, something else, and this will be like, I'm just going to whisper in
the ears of local staff, I know that parks is responsible for some of the leases from
the core.
So the city of Denton leases some of it to Texas Parks and Wildlife, and Texas Parks
and Wildlife leases some of that core land for the Green Belt directly.
And so I don't know how that mixture of leases back to Texas Parks and Wildlife now affects
TxDOT and this whole process, so at some point, if there's some clarity, I would love to have
some clarity.
So we have to honor any contracts that the core has in that area.
So like when we were widening 2499 across the lake, or when we did Lake Lewisville-Towbridge,
there were parks in those areas that Highland Village or Little Lamb or Lakewood Village
had, and they had rights, right?
And then there's that yacht club north of the Lake Lewisville-Towbridge, they had rights,
so that's why you had that big arch in the middle of the lake, so that those guys didn't
have to lower their mast to go under the, so we just spent $50 million on that.
I just paid them to cut the mast off.
So all the contracts that are currently out there, we have to honor.
So that's part of the cost.
The core language is surrender early and pay what they ask.
So that's what we're going to do.
>> All right, I appreciate it.
Thanks, John.
>> Okay.
>> And that's it.
>> All right, well, Ben, I have just been full of game one knowledge today.
Thank you very much for your services, and we appreciate you coming through.
>> It's all going to change like in two weeks.
I just don't know how.
>> Okay.
Well, we'll look forward to seeing you in a few months.
>> Thank you.
>> We're going to move on to items D. We are going to skip C. It has been pulled.
But we're going to go ahead and go to D. MC 25-004, staff memorandum, the 2019 bond program,
UPRR agreement, Bush Creek.
>> Trevor Crane, director of capital projects.
These came up from some questions that were brought up last time.
Staff provided response to those.
So really, just if you all have any additional questions that we can answer at this time,
myself and some other staff are here.
>> Well, I'm just pleased to see that Janie Street is part of a project now.
>> Yes, ma'am.
>> And they're going to be happy about that in that neighborhood.
Anybody else have any questions?
Let's start down.
Okay, let's start down here this time.
>> So when it comes to hawk beacons and other crosswalks, I just had some questions about
the city's approach to determining where those should be installed.
Is this engineer's best judgment is kind of the approach that we take or are we looking
at warrants for these?
>> Good morning, chair and commissioners, Chandra with transportation services.
So when we consider pedestrian hybrid beacons, it's a combination of a number of crosses
at pedestrians or bikes that crossing their roadway, and there is no set metrics.
Like Tony, Tony is a rule of thumb when Tony pedestrians cross in one peak hour.
That is one consideration.
In absence of pedestrians, but if there is any fatalities or near misses or if there
is serious injuries in a location, that is a factor as well.
And also we need to consider the cost of building these on roadways which would be $150,000
to $200,000 per location.
>> So you said 20 crossings in a peak hour.
I guess how do you just determine the study area for that, right?
So there's like the parking lot kind of opposite east side on the south side of Oak Street.
If I'm crossing at like one end of that parking lot on the east end of that parking lot and
then somebody else is crossing on the south end of that parking lot and somebody is crossing
at that Austin street intersection, does that all get grouped into one crossing area?
>> Yes.
When there is a request comes in, we usually go and count and make observations and make
the determination if it's needed to be funneled into all into one crossing.
>> Okay.
Thank you.
>> Okay.
Yes, sir.
>> I'm just going to pick it immediately from there.
So it's all intersection and mid-block crossings that count to the 20?
>> It's mostly -- it's -- PHBs are used at mid-block crossings.
>> Right.
>> But in terms of volume and the reason -- I'll put context on my question.
If you are having people jaywalk, then they're crossing against the guidance of the layout.
So how do you determine that?
Because if you had a controlled crossing, they would cross it there.
So the flow is obviously directing them away from the region, but their desire flow is
to the mid-block crossing.
So how do we determine 20 -- and I know you're not being hard and fast on the 20, but how
do we determine that volume of need is, I guess, my question.
>> So if there is a crossing, we only consider max of 300 feet.
Beyond 300 feet, even if you provide an intersection with signals, people would be just not cross
it there, they would cross wherever they feel convenient.
So anything that is within the 300 feet is where we consider -- if you provide one, they
will be utilizing that crossing.
>> Okay.
Do we have a current plan for when we're going to put PHBs and how we're going to deploy
them across the city and then sort of secondarily have a citizen request those in the best way
possible?
>> So there are not only PHBs, there are other like RRPs or even LED lights that we could
consider.
Based on the request, we make the judgment because it's not only we plan, we need to
have funds to implement those.
So it's a combination of need and whether we have the funds to build those.
>> But I guess I meant that more in terms of what's our current anticipated rollout
of PHBs?
>> We are studying four locations right now.
McKinney Street at Jenin, McKinney at Mack Park, and there are other two locations across
South Lake Park, so there is one other location, so we are evaluating it, and based on funds
available, we would be able to build it.
>> And is there a preferred way -- like I know like obviously Anderson's is very interested
in PHB, and there's been various requests for PHBs along 288, especially near the shelter
and Serve Denton and things like that.
So how -- I mean, you don't have to necessarily answer today unless it's a short answer, but
there is desire in the community for additional PHBs around, you know, high-trafficked, high-volume
variant, and a way of requesting that would be really great.
>> Sure.
It's either Engage Renton or you could send it to us.
We will evaluate and make the determination.
>> Hi, Chandra.
So you sort of hit on it, and so did committee member Bray.
We said 20 pedestrians at peak hour.
Is this a should or a shall?
You said guideline.
>> Yeah.
It's neither.
Tech Start uses the rule of thumb as a minimum Tony, but if there is an accident prone and
there is no Tony process, then we could -- it gives more authority for the traffic engineer
to make the call.
>> Okay.
So just a guideline.
>> Yeah.
>> And then to make sure I got this right, you said the general cost is 150 to 250?
Was that the upper level?
>> It ranges, say, if you're building on a two-lane roadway, the steel equipment, you
don't need a longer mast arms, but if you're building across a six-lane facility, the cost
would go up.
>> Was it 250?
Was that the upper --
>> 250, yeah, max.
>> And then how does that compare to the cost of a typical intersection signal?
>> Like signal, lately we are getting quote around $700,000 to $800,000 per location.
>> All right.
That's all I had.
Thank you.
>> Sure.
>> Okay.
We have one more question here.
>> You said four PHBs are pending.
Two McKinney, one on Tuesday.
What was the fourth one?
>> We have -- I have -- I don't have the location, but I can find out and let you know.
>> Okay.
>> But yes, evaluate it.
>> That's why I didn't hear it.
Okay.
>> McKinney is disciplining it.
Yes.
>> I just want to provide one point of clarity.
When Chandra is speaking, he's speaking to city-controlled streets.
Keep in mind, tech-stock-controlled roadways, their standards are much stricter.
And the second piece to that is that we're limited on funding.
So again, he's doing a lot of evaluation, but it's not as if we're going to be putting
these everywhere.
So just --
>> Sounds like we're going to have to meet another bond.
Yes.
>> Just in terms of things that go beyond kind of a standard zebra crossing, I would
-- I was driving down Newton at Moore Street by Rivera today, and I noticed -- and I don't
know if this is intentional or if this is just a quirk of the way that the road is settled,
but there is a slightly actually elevated crosswalk there.
So I thought that was great, and I'm always open to seeing more of those around town.
>> Sure.
I haven't seen it, but I will take a look at it and circle back.
>> Elevated crosswalk.
>> I'd be happy to show you after the meeting on collapse.
>> Okay.
>> I have one more question on the next item.
>> Oh, okay.
>> The next item, the UPR agreement.
Rush Creek crossing.
Can you scroll that up a little bit?
That right there.
Yes.
You had a question?
>> Yeah.
No, I know generally we're looking for a 90-degree crossing in crossings in general as a principle,
but given the layout of Bonnie Brade Parvin, that region, like I'm having trouble visualizing
what we're intending to do, especially in light of the other Bonnie Brade projects.
So could some sort of alignment clarity, could you kind of describe or somebody describe what
we're talking about in that region?
>> Sure.
Currently, Bonnie Brake terminates at US 377.
It's at an angle, and it's an unsafe crossing so far.
And there is another crossing to the south of that at Johnson that hits at 377.
So this project is based on our mobility plan.
Rush Creek hits at 377, it right now terminates, but it will extend all the way on the western
side of 377 to go to 35, turns into Aldred, based on our mobility plan.
So with this project, what we are trying to do is close Bonnie Brake crossing and Johnson
crossing, that's UPR guidelines, to trade two crossings to get one new crossing.
And this new crossing will provide six lanes with the quiet zone, traffic light, and preemption,
which is a much more safer crossing than Johnson or at Bonnie Brake.
>> Nice.
>> Yes, sir?
>> And just to tag on to that, so the south side of Sagebrook, the right of way has been
acquired, this plan has been in the works for years.
So the Bonnie Brake crossing will close and it will go through that south of the Sagebrook
subdivision.
We can provide you with that.
>> I was going to say, do we have an alignment?
>> We do.
>> Because I think 99% of my questions would be answered if I could visualize the alignment.
>> It's much simpler, it's much cleaner, so absolutely we'll provide that.
>> Perfect.
>> That would be great.
And when you provide that to him, just provide it to all of us on the committee.
>> Absolutely.
>> Thank you.
Yes?
>> I have to follow what he said that a lot of visuals would help me as well.
When I first read this, I was completely in the wrong location, but I think I understand
where we are now.
So my question is on the Brushy Creek, Hickory Creek, is that part of our Hickory Creek widening
project, the bond funded project?
I just want to confirm that.
>> It's on the eastern side, yes.
The Hickory Creek terminates at bond 377, that is in the -- yeah, 1830.
>> And then, so at the new crossing, and I do know this rule of to create a new crossing,
we are required to close two.
>> That's right.
>> On the new crossing, so we said it would be six lanes, as part of the 2019 Hickory
Creek widening bond project, there was bike/ped infrastructure.
So my question is, at the crossing, will the quad gates also block the bike/ped infrastructure?
>> No.
>> Just to give a more active, hey, you should stop?
>> It's only for the vehicles right now, because quad gates are optional for pedestrians, and
cost would be exponentially high, but as far as railways, it's optional, they give it justification
based on what we recommend, but usually on pedestrians, we provide the Z gates, they
kind of navigate like a maze and hit perpendicularly to the tracks.
>> So I know road width is going to impact it, but I have seen in other cities where
a single gate could block both, so you didn't buy an extra gate, you just had a gate that
could block both, and a lot of folks do struggle with the Z gates, because it's really for
pedestrians, not bikes, so people with cargo bikes, bike trailers, they really struggle
to navigate that, so on the DCTA rail trail, a lot of people just go around them, because
it's hard to navigate, so if we can do something that's more friendly to more people, that
would be ideal, especially if it's one of those options where we don't have to add an
additional gate, because I know those are expensive, but I know there's an option in
some cases, depending on the road width and things like that, to possibly have the same
arm block bike path and the car lanes, potentially. >> It depends, we can evaluate it, but when
you go to like a six-lane facility, already the arm lengths has to go span across three
lanes, there is a sag, but when you incorporate pedestrian elements, the gates have to be
even more longer, but since it's a new roadway, new location, we could evaluate it.
>> That would be ideal if we can figure out a way to make that happen.
>> I think that's a reasonable ask. It seems logical. Okay, anybody else on this topic?
All right, well, Dean, thank you very much, we appreciate it. All right, we're going to
move down to EMC 25-005, receive a report, hold a discussion, and give staff direction
regarding future meeting topics. Also, I'm going to read this so I don't forget this,
agenda information sheet and future items matrix. I never get a chance to look up to
see that it's actually there, so yeah. So here we are.
>> Sure, so Trevor Crane, Director of Capital Projects, again, I'll run through these rather
quickly. So the 2019 bond program, Janie Street, we provided that update, we'd like to request
to remove that. The next couple will be updates that we'll provide when they're completed.
So citywide parking study, collision reduction statistics, concerns for bicyclists and pedestrian
safety on north and south Austin, and then growing the Bice Bus program, those are all
being worked on now, and once we get those completed, we'll provide those. Next is the
hawk best practices, so that was provided today. We did give some additional questions,
so we'll probably need to leave that one on there just to finish that one out. Increasing
wrapped equipment, box locations, that was provided in November 20th to 2024, so I would
request that we remove that one, unless there's additional-
>> We have a project.
>> It's coming back. Oh, sorry.
>> Oh, it's going to come back.
>> It's going to come back. Thank you, Jasmine. McKinney Crosswalk, we'll provide an update
when that one is available.
>> Now, can I verify that that's the Crosswalk near Janie Street by the-
>> I'm not sure which one it is. We'll go back and check the notes and make sure that
we have-
>> I know that's the one that I requested, and so I'm not sure if anybody else has-
>> It's probably it, but let me verify.
>> Okay.
>> And then we have our quarterly transportation mobility project status that'll come back
next quarter. Quarterly construction report and trip report that'll be coming back as
well as our transportation services report. Those are all on a quarterly update schedule.
Quiet zone realignment for Mingo and Riddell, that's being worked on along with our side
path and trail access, that was also being worked on as well. And then traffic calming
measures was provided, and that one's coming back as well. Jasmine's nodding her head at
me.
>> I think now we can take anything additional that y'all would like to add to the future
items list.
>> I know that I am going to or going to have some conversation about Moore Street. Would
this be included on this list, or is this already off this list, but we know that it's
coming.
>> Sure. So that meeting on Moore's is tomorrow, and we'll go through that project with you.
>> It comes on the meeting.
>> Yes, ma'am.
>> All right. I'll look at my calendar. I think that was the only thing in my -- oh,
you know what? I would like for you all to add Spencer Road -- no, Spencer? Yeah, Spencer.
Between 288 and May Hill.
>> Okay.
>> It's just the numbers are increasing on that road. And we had initially had a complaint
from the senior citizens that live on that road, that community there. They're concerned
about increased back and forth because of the new apartment complex.
>> Okay. So an evaluation of widening that road?
>> Yes. Kind of looking at the evaluation. As a matter of fact, and this is kind of personal,
I want to say this real quick, I was coming out from Walmart and coming back behind the
buildings. You know how you can kind of go behind those buildings? And I was making a
right turn there, just kind of evaluate the area, and just right to the right at that right
turn, there's a really deep kind of gully type thing. I was going to put it on engaged in,
but I just never did do it. So I'll just ask you all to please evaluate that area as you're
doing that.
>> Yes, ma'am.
>> The other thing that I may -- what are we doing on -- I know Moore Street -- no,
yeah, Moore Street turns into -- I don't know, but it's got a crossover 288.
>> What's that? Say it again?
>> Sadie Shores.
>> Sadie Shores. And I saw some work being done over in that area.
>> Okay.
>> By maybe about a -- by Kimberly, kind of up in there. And I didn't recognize what was
going on. Were you all looking at that?
>> Yeah. Take a look at it. Yes, ma'am.
>> And I think that's all that I had. I'm going to start on this scene. Go ahead. Yeah.
>> So what I'd like to try to discuss is with all the construction we've got going around,
sometimes if you're walking or biking, you'll hit a dead end, like sidewalk close, something
like that, and there's no detour provided or suggestion on how to proceed. In some cases,
like on Carroll, something with fewer pedestrian crossings, you don't know the sidewalk is
closed until you're, you know, 15 minutes away from the closest legal crossing. So it
tends to encourage people to cross at unsafe locations and that kind of thing. So maybe
this is a discussion at some point. I'm kind of curious if there's any additional policies
we need to add to do things like giving advanced warnings of sidewalk closures before you hit
the closure. And also what our process is for -- I know for -- is it temporary traffic
controls, is that the phrase I'm looking for here? If there's a pedestrian or bicycle infrastructure
at that location and that's blocked, we're supposed to provide some sort of detour unless,
you know, there's certain reasons to not. So I'd be curious to sort of hear how we go
about creating the detours and how we decide maybe that we're not going to. So like an
example right now is Hickory Street, pretty close to Welch. The bike lane ends. There's
no detour. So especially when you've got an inexperienced bicyclist, having them merge
kind of suddenly with car traffic kind of creates confusion and potential for collision.
So I'm just kind of interested to hear our procedure for temporary traffic controls when
we're going to close or block a sidewalk or a bike facility.
Sure. So let me ask one clarification question because I think you may have brought up two
separate items. So one is when there's construction. So that's kind of one item. And you hit that
perfectly. Typically, they should be providing those advanced warning signs. So if you're
not seeing those, let us know. And then secondly, when you talked about Hickory, it sounds like
that was a permanent bike lane that just ends. Or is it due to construction?
So Welch is under construction and some of the construction is sort of bleeding into
the bike lane. So the pedestrian crossing and the bike lane right there are closed.
Gotcha. Okay.
So let me give you like a detour on that side. So that's just a specific example. Yeah. So
also like I know there's requirements of how far in advance you warn people of detours
and things like that. So looking at, especially when there's a sidewalk closure, whether it's
a road construction or out on Mayhill one time, it was blocked for like a city facility.
Just do we need to add something to policy to give more advanced warning at the nearest
legal crossing so people know ahead of time? Sure. It's going to be closed across here.
Yeah. I think that's going to be more of an enforcement issue, but we'll definitely provide
something. Okay. Thank you.
Yeah. I just want to put a pin in these because I'm not sure if it's a continuing item or
not from the PHP. So I'd love to see that guidance brought forward. But then for call
buttons in general, you know, we had the disabled gentlemen in the middle of the night at Rudel
at university with a, you know, urban pacification button rather than an actual call button.
Unfortunately, this gentleman, and I don't mean to be glib, but had to play Frogger and
that unfortunately lost his life. And so I guess my question is how often, and I don't
want the answer here because this is for future matrix items, but if we could get some clarity
on how often we audit our PCBs and you know, when, especially on these arterials and larger,
when, you know, what's our frequency of that? I don't want our pedestrians hitting the button
and having to take their lives into their hands, especially for disabled folks, especially
on the arterials and universities perennial. I mean, like I've come to this committee and
counsel many times for Rudel and Nottingham Old North. These are sort of constant issues
and it's not, it's because the neighborhoods span either side of a major, you know, strode
that we had here in our town. And so I'd like some clarity, some updating in a future item
on frequency of maintenance of those PCBs and where we stand on that so that I can go
back to the public and say that this was broken or, you know, that, yeah, no, we only do that
every three years or every five years or, and we don't know the status of our PCBs.
And I just, I mean, that's a huge spectrum. I just like to know where Denton is somewhere
in the middle of that. Sure. Absolutely. Okay. DCTA is having a long-term planning meeting
this weekend, and I believe that they may be discussing the addition of one or two routes.
At their previous meeting, they also discussed merging some UNT routes, recombining, reconfiguring
some things. So just maybe not next month, but at some point, I'd like to hear something
about how those will impact the city and what we might be able to do to support those creation
of the routes, right? If they're putting a stop here on university, can we, you know,
build a sidewalk bump out or, you know, those sorts of things. Sounds good. And with that
being said, do we know when the next time we're going to have DCTA to come in front
of City Council? Or can we get a brief something from our representative to come and speak
to us, to the Mobility Committee in this regard? Just have them in front of us in some kind
of way. Do we have any idea of when we're going to be seeing them again? No, we can
look at that and get back to you on what that might look like. We're attending the strategic
planning session, so we'll provide that feedback. Okay. And maybe we'll just do it in a report
form. Maybe we'll do an ISR type thing or, okay, because we still do have a representative.
Yes, absolutely. Yep. Which I haven't actually seen in the last couple of years. Yeah, and
they've been going to council, but I'll visit with Cassie on it. Please do. Thank you. Sure,
we'll stay connected. And were you talking about maybe some cross, that's what they're
going to be talking about, the strategic, you mentioned something about the buses not
crossing one another or other? UNT has, I want to say around 10 or 11 routes right now.
They're looking at just merging some of those because there's repetition of this bus follows
this route, and then this second bus follows pretty much the same route, but with some
divergences. Okay. And then also just like if they're adding a bus route somewhere, do
we need to add a crosswalk? Do we need to add a hawk beacon to support that bus route?
Things like that. Oh, okay. Also, if you all have an opportunity to add considerations
for downtown, I know that we have a great downtown plan, and I'm not real, I am not
me. I'm not real clear on how we're going to run our bus system through that space,
if it at all. So that'll be part of the strategic conversation. Yes. Yes, sir. Because you all
brought up that topic and because we delayed the autonomous vehicle item, I think it would
be beneficial to staff to know that, at least myself, I'm going to have questions about
how the DCTA scheduling interacts with something we would schedule if we do an autonomous vehicle.
And so staff might as well be aware of that and sort of talk about that integration when
we eventually bring that item back. I don't know when that's going to come back. It'll
probably be another year. So there was some funding reductions unrelated to the new presidency
that occurred last week, and so we're just going to wait for another year. We have been
in constant communication with DCTA, so we're going to continue to work with them and work
with them on routes. Again, why it is that we can provide some of the information from
the strategic planning session to this group via an ISR or something. I think DCTA will
really just report out to council, so you'll get that briefing from the representative
directly at council rather than through this body, but we'll be certain to provide something
related to kind of that planning. But just important to note that staff does meet with
DCTA bi-weekly, so we're in constant communication. That's unfortunate because the last time we
saw the TERS, they talked about this was coming before you in a week, so apparently the funding
changed from when Vicki and I saw it a week ago to this meeting, so that's very unfortunate.
The timing feels coincidental, but okay. So they reduced that. It's a very competitive
process. DCTA wasn't completely prepared for this, so we were almost a little bit ahead
of DCTA, so this will work much more in a collaborative way anyhow that we have a little
better timing to get through the strategic planning process and then be able to put together
a packet together to work on this. So we'll be looking at submitting in the fall or start
the process in the fall for the early '26 awards. Thank you. Okay. Anything else? Future
items on the future items matrix. Oh, yes. Okay. I understand that we need to vote on
the removal. The update. Okay, remove. Okay. So I'll need to get a motion. Also move. Second.
Okay. All right. All in favor. Thank you. And with that being said, their concluding
meeting is February next meeting. Oh, next meeting. 2626. Yes. I just want to say shout
out to staff for the vision zero kickoff meeting is stakeholder meeting. Was that two weeks
ago, something January 15th. Yeah. So I'm really happy that the city's continuing with
trying to reduce traffic fatalities and serious injuries and great kickoff meeting to everybody
that was there and or helped plan it or implement it. Yes, yes, yes. I had that in the back
of my mind to say, but I'm glad you said it. Anything else? Well, I don't have anything.
So we are going to conclude this meeting at 1105 a.m. this morning. Everyone, please have
a great rest of the day and the great rest of your life.