Jun 11, 2019 Mobility Committee on 2019-06-11 9:00 AM

Good morning and welcome to this meeting of the City Council Mobility Committee. We do have a quorum present, so I'm calling the meeting to order at nine o'clock. We're going to move some items around from the posted agenda just out of courtesy to folks who are visiting, both to report in and members of the public, but we'll start with items for individual consideration. A, consider the approval of the Mobility Committee meeting minutes of April 9th, 2019. I will recommend approval. And I guess I can second in this case, so I'll second. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Minutes are approved. So we're going to move on to item C, Receive a Report and Hold a Discussion Regarding Updates from the Denton County Transportation Authority. Hello. Nicole Recker, VP of Marketing and Administration for DCTA. I'm going to provide some general updates today, and then I'm going to follow up on a few of the items that we've been talking about the last few months at this meeting. So our Board of Directors, based on the legislative change, is making a shift, and it started making that shift on May 23rd of last month, and so we are moving toward having five voting members on our board, three of those from our member cities and two from Denton County, so a representative from Denton, Highland Village, and Lewisville. Right now, the city reps have been identified, but the two reps from the county are still under consideration, and we should know more in the coming weeks. And then we will have non-voting board members as well, and those non-voting board members will be determined by this new board as they discuss bylaws. So expect to see some changes there that may alter some of the updates that I'm able to bring here based on the new board's direction, and so we're really excited to hear kind of what their ideas are and how they'd like us to move forward. You may have heard us talk about the North Texas Mobility Corporation, or NTMC, DCTA set up a local government corporation starting in January with the sole purpose of bringing over all of our transit management of Denton County employees, so all of the employees that operate our bus service, and so we successfully launched that on June 2nd. We moved over 180 employees from TMDC to NTMC, and really what that has allowed us to do is have a little bit more localized control over strategy and operations of our bus services, and so we really believe that it's going to have an improved passenger experience, improved efficiencies. We're already seeing that. We're already hearing that from our passengers, so I would expect to see continued improvement in our bus service just simply from that transition, but you will see a new acronym in the transit world, which is NTMC. We're super excited, and we've only heard positive things thus far, so right now we're just really focusing on improving operations and that overall passenger experience. We've also been talking about mobility as a service, or what you might have heard called MOS, and that's kind of a trending business model in the transit industry of on-demand services that you can book in real time via a mobile app, and so we started talking about this the beginning of the year, end of last year that we were going to go out for RFP. We went out for RFP in January of this year, and we're able to take to our board last month a selection of 31 firms that provide a variety of on-demand services, and so that could be ride share, bike share, scooter share, autonomous vehicles, software platforms that would enable us to create zones within our service area to provide on-demand services, and so right now we're working with those 31 firms and looking at DCTA service area to see where maybe an on-demand service is a better fit than a fixed route service, and so we'll continue to work with them, but we really anticipate leveraging this much larger tool belt of services come January of 2020, so it's going to take us a little while to kind of go through our entire service area and really model what's going to work best as well as pairing that with the new board direction, but we're excited to do a really big push in January 2020 of a lot more on-demand services and fewer fixed route services. We really feel like that's going to meet the needs of the communities that we serve and also the passengers that we serve. Yes? I have a question just about that. So on the on-demand services, when you do use that service, can you request the size bus that you need, say if you are taking your class or a larger group? So typically those on-demand services are smaller vehicles, and we do that simply because it's more cost effective, but also we're moving people a little bit quicker because it's not on the fixed route and so a small bus allows us to be a little bit more agile. If we are doing something that was for a larger group, we would recommend contacting us and coordinating that ahead of time, but the majority of these small vehicles, I mean, they fit 12 to 15 comfortably, and if it was something where you had more passengers, the whole dynamic aspect of the on-demand service is that we would be able to dispatch two vehicles to you based on the size of your group rather than hoping that everybody fits on one fixed route service to get you where you need to go. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. If I could follow up, is the situation more that you've got buses running empty so that you might more appropriately cover the needs with on-demand or is the situation that there's demand greater than fixed route where on-demand could be a supplement, and could that be a possible way to learn what works better by adding rather than subtracting? I think that fixed route service is a really good foundation for a transit service. You have a fixed route service that's built based on the most popular destinations people go to, so the grocery stores, the pharmacies, doctor's offices, but there are some areas that passengers or community members need to go to that a fixed route just doesn't serve. Maybe that's because the road infrastructure doesn't accommodate a really large bus. Maybe it's because we can't get to every single place on one fixed route or it would be an hour from start to finish. By having a fixed route service handle those most popular destinations, you can layer on top an on-demand service that provides a much more customized origin destination option for passengers. And so I would really say it's more to customize where a passenger needs to go rather than an empty bus or a full bus. Thank you. Councilwoman Briggs brought up a bus stop amenity request, a question about the Krogeron University, and I just wanted to follow up on that request because I know we've talked about that several times. We also talked about what indicates whether or not we put a bus shelter or a bench at a stop. And we did provide some information, our standards. There are some thresholds that we meet, so if there are 15 average boardings per day, we provide a bench. If there's 25 or more average boardings per day, we provide a shelter. So we did some analysis, there are two stops at the Kroger on University, and all of those stops were under the threshold of even a bench. And so one of the things that we have been talking about internally is that we are going to completely reset some standards. So we're going to look at our standards and say what really should qualify for a bench and for a shelter. We believe the threshold right now is a little bit too high. And then also look at where are our current amenities and how can we increase those amenities. So we're doing a really big deep dive on that. We just kicked that off a couple weeks ago. Our plan is to kind of build out a moving plan that looks at all of the stops, especially once we look at kind of bringing those more on-demand services on board. We won't need as many stops, and so we might be able to reallocate some of those amenities. And so I would say that 2020 will see a big shift in all of the bus stops that we have and where are we able to put bus stops, where are we able to put the benches, the shelters. A lot of it has to do with accessibility. So if we do put a bench or a shelter, we have to have the space and the access to a sidewalk. So if there isn't a sidewalk, how do we address that? Hopefully we'll be able to bring this group an entire plan that talks about not only a modification to our overall standards, but also a plan for how we plan on executing more and implementing more of those bus shelters and bus benches. And then we participated in multiple events with the City of Denton. And so the Denton Arts and Jazz Festival is just a recap. We did carry fewer riders on our shuttle from Med Park and Presby than we did in the past, as well as the A train. But we still carried a pretty good number of folks. We carried a little over 1,300 passengers from the Med Park shuttle, and we carried a little over 150 passengers from the Presby and a little over 2,000 from the A train. So even though our numbers were down year over year, attendance to the event was down year over year, and those percentages coincide. So we met with Mario, as well as the event, to kind of talk about those numbers and determine what the best plan was, and we planned to regroup at the beginning of the year and talk about the 2020 event. But overall, I mean, we feel like it was really successful, and, you know, anytime you do something for the first time, the Presby shuttle was a first go-around. You know, ridership is not always the highest, and so we hope to see higher ridership next year, but it's definitely a partnership that we're really proud to be a part of and that we look forward to next year. And then we also did a Rails to Trails event, which was a follow-up from the April event that was for the opening Trails Day that got rained out. So we held an event on June 1st, and we partnered with Denton, Corinth, Lake Dallas, Highland Village, and Lewisville. At the Denton stop, we saw over 100 people come through, lots of folks on their bicycles, walkers, and we did offer a free A-Train promotion, which we're still waiting on the results, but we are planning to have a follow-up call with all of the participants here in the coming weeks to talk about lessons learned, but so far, everything that we've heard has been extremely positive about getting people out on the trails. We're really looking forward to that wrap-up call to see is this something that we could maybe do on an annual basis, but it was a great way to get folks from all of the cities throughout the county along the A-Train corridor, get them out there experiencing the rail. And thank you to Councilwoman Briggs for all of your help with that as well. Do you have a question? Well, I just want to comment, thank you guys for stepping up and making that what it was. We participated, my family and I, and the boys really enjoyed it, and I think it's an amenity that we have that connects our cities that a lot of people just have no clue. Like, we cross the train tracks and we see every now and again, but we don't make the connection that it's actually a connection from city to city to city, and it's a really nice wide path. My only question is, when I was on it, I noticed that it really wouldn't be accessible at night because there's no lighting. Is there a plan for lighting in the future? So we do have some funding that's specific for trail safety, and so every year we look at ways to enhance trail safety, so whether that's emergency call boxes, lighting, fencing, and so every year that is part of our plan. And I will say that as a follow-up from that event, one of the things that we heard is that at some of the stations it's difficult to find out how to get from the station to the trail, and so we are currently using some of those safety dollars to look at wayfinding to help people kind of get to and from the trail and the station, but those are -- lighting is always one of the number one things that we're talking about when it comes to trail safety, so we'll continue to look at those and use those safety dollars to improve the trail. Thank you. It was a really great event. Great. That concludes my update. If there are no questions. Go ahead, John. On the Arts and Jazz, is it strictly from the Med Park, is it strictly bus service or are you supplementing the train service so that you're encouraging people to -- while the train is running its normal route, that they would take that -- I know that runs on an hour and a half to clean. Yes. It's a supplemental shuttle service, so what we do is we encourage folks to either park at Med Park and use the shuttle from Med Park to the event or to take the train in instead of using your car, get off the train, and then use the shuttle. Okay. I'd like to just follow up and just ask status or timing on an item we brought up several meetings ago, or a few meetings ago, on the possibility of using maybe the Discovery Park route to give transit dependent detonates access to the Razor Ranch development, whether just to use the amenities or for work? Is that still sort of on the table? So the issue with providing the fixed route bus service kind of in and closer to Razor Ranch is that Razor Ranch only has one entrance and one exit that is light protected, and I believe that the City of Denton is doing a study and looking at ways to add additional -- like additional light. Now we're talking about things that aren't right. So we've completed the Warren study for head to trail at US 380 and gone through the process, received approval from TechStat, and we're moving forward with design at this point. We do have funds from the Razor Ranch development fees, so we're -- we have enough that we can move forward with the signal there. What's the sort of rough timetable? I mean, I don't mean that in a very, you know, precise way, but timeframe, timeframe. Typically design takes about a couple months, and then we are going with a contract for a signal contractor tonight, and if that goes through, we have a $5 million cap, and we can accommodate that within that contract amount. That's great. I look forward to, you know, sort of consciously -- in general, consciously integrating transit with economic development, you know, when we do it. So that's super. Thank you. Okay. So I appreciate the report, and we'll move on. You're free to attend if you're fascinated. Or if you have other pressing matters to serve our community, feel free to attend to those. I'm going to move on now to item H. Oh, by the way, I saw we had other members of the public. It looks like you figured out -- you're helping each other with the blue card deal. Yeah. And you can bring the cards up any time. But we'll take one more item, and then we'll go to the Forest Ridge item. Just -- we're going to receive a report and hold -- this is item H, receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the parking enforcement on the city streets around the University of North Texas from University Transportation Services. I'll just highlight for those who follow these sort of things, it's not a pending matter. We're not giving direction. We're going to receive a report and hold the discussion. Good morning. My name is Chris Phelps. I'm the Director for Transportation Services at UNT. With me today I have Brandy Branton, our Associate Vice President over Transportation Services and Stan Nixon, Assistant Director for Transportation Services. We wanted to take this opportunity -- we appreciate the invitation out this morning. Unfortunately, last month we were, I think, in the midst of commencement, so we were out helping that event. So we appreciate the opportunity to come here. I'd like to use this as an opportunity to begin a conversation with the committee. I think this is my first time here. We do have a number of working relationships with folks at the -- You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. We have a number of working relationships with folks here in the room. We're very appreciative of that. We want to give you kind of an overview of what we do with transportation services and then kind of begin that conversation of where you think that's appropriate. At this committee level, as we go forward with the city, we've had some initiatives in the past several months, and I think there's a great opportunity for us to give you an overview of what we do, help you understand what we do and how we can work together to help both our community, for our residents and our students and our visitors and guests that are coming. What do we have in way of resources? I think we all hear about parking as a general thing. We currently have more than 13,000 spaces to accommodate parking on campus, both at the main campus and Discovery Park. Last year, we added over 500 spaces out near Apogee Park or Apogee Field to assist with student parking, resident parking. Big major project going on at the former Fouts Field location. The stadium is down. We're, I think, paving today. There's asphalting going on. That will add an additional 1,000 spaces to our inventory. Campus populations, roughly 45,000 folks. The mix of what we have in terms of hourly visitor permitted valet, the options transportation, is enough to meet the needs of our community. We'll talk about, and with the addition of Fouts, the 1,000 spaces will meet the needs for some time to come. So when you hear about parking is a challenge at UNT, that is true. There are some location issues, certainly not an inventory issue. We have parking for folks on campus, and we have a variety of options to help them pay for that parking. So we've gone from a more traditional mode where it's a permit, so we have folks who do distance learning or other types of learning where they may be more infrequent visitors to campus. We have different options to help that because a permit may not be the best fit for their needs, and so we want to be sensitive to that. Talking about some of the alternatives that we have, Zipcar. We encourage folks nowadays with our partnership with DCTA that gets you in and around town. You don't need a car. We have four Zipcars that you can rent by the hour, anywhere from about $5.50 an hour to $9.50 an hour, which includes your fuel, your insurance, the whole ball of work. So if you've absolutely, positively got to go somewhere that you can't get on a DCTA bus, use the Zipcar. They can be rented by the hour, by the day, by the weekend, and whatnot. Parking at Med Park. Appreciate Nicole's talk there about using Med Park as a park owner. We use that with a partnership with DCTA as a way for folks to, if they're coming up I-35E, they can park at Med Park, ride the Colorado Express in, and it takes you directly to the Union. So if you don't want to pay for parking on campus or deal with the location issues, stop at Med Park, ride the bus in. It's convenient. It's all-day service. Use the A-Train. We're a quick trip from downtown with the VO Ride partnerships that we've got. We've got some options using the quick bicycle ride down. Public transportation within the city of Denton. We'll talk a little bit more here. The students pay a transportation fee for bus service. That is a fee, and we'll talk later about that, but as part of that fee, as we've negotiated with DCTA, is they can use their student ID to access any fixed route within the city of Denton to go where they need to go. And then, of course, VO Ride. Parking behaviors. I've been in transportation a very long time, most of it in public transportation. I'll tell you what our data shows, people don't like change. We've had a lot of change at UNT in the last several years. 1,200 parking spaces lost due to the new buildings and infrastructure that's going in. These are great things, but surface lots on the interior campus are a dying breed. It's prime real estate. As we develop the campus, these are where things go. So parking goes to the periphery. People don't like to pay for parking on campus. As you look at paying for parking, we all pay for parking irrespective of where we go. If I go shopping at the grocery store, I'm paying for parking, it's wrapped up as part of the overhead. Because of the way in which state statute is written, we cannot wrap up our parking fees into a fee or a tuition. Only those people who use our services can be charged for it. So if you come to campus, don't own a car, don't park on campus, you don't have to pay for our services. But the people who do, they have to pay for that. So there's that understanding why. And emotional. Yes, sir? We have a question. Yes, ma'am. I just wanted to ask the question before I forget and why you just said it. So you mentioned earlier that there's a transportation fee. Yes. And is that for all students? Yes. It is for all students not covered by a waiver or exemption and attend class on campus. And so that parking fee is something different than the transportation fee. Correct. Correct. And that's covered in state statute. The fee is something the students, they vote on, and they pay for out of their student fees. And so it's a very specific part of legislation. The student transportation fee can only be used for buses that may not be used for parking. Parking funds go both ways. I can use it for parking. I can use it for bikes. I can use it for buses. But it doesn't work the reverse. So it's a very tailored specific fee that is allowed under current legislation. Okay. I was just trying to get that straight. Yeah. It is a lot of people don't know. And it is very specific. I'll talk a little bit more about the transportation fee and what we've got there. And I was going to wrap up on behaviors being emotional. It's an emotional event for folks. I mean, we're all users of services. As you go somewhere and you pull in and you get that front spot, you feel pretty good. But I would venture how many of you have ever called into the store manager and said, "Hey, I got a front spot. Thank you." No, we don't. We go on about our day. But we hear from folks vocalizing issues about the parking challenges on campus. And so we've got some ways that we have begun outreach. We'll continue to do outreach, build partnerships. We want our students and our guests to be successful. So we need to make sure that we're making sure that they have the information they need to make those choices as they go forward. Parking enforcement, we do it. It's one of the services outside of the others, but we do enforce parking on campus. Why? Tens of thousands of people are on campus every day. When you look at densities at UNT proper as compared to regular Denton County, I think it's somewhere in the numbers, I think Denton County population density is probably 1400 people per mile. You get into UNT, it's upwards of 25, 26,000 people. So there's a lot of people in a very congested area and that creates a lot of challenges. 80% of the people, we go with the old 80/20 rule, 80% of the people go forward with their day. They have a good day. They're successful. The 20% are the ones that create problems for the rest of us. And unfortunately, we work to ensure that the people who pay for the services they want get access to those services. So folks aren't taking advantage of that. We do some things to help become more of a service and less of an enforcement. This year, with the new academic year, we've made a change to our enforcement structure. It's a more staggered approach. So the first two citations you get are either $0 or very minimal nuisance, kind of $10 charge. That's our opportunity to kind of say, hey, here's the rules. Here's the regs. Here's what you need. Outreach so that folks know if they have questions, they can reach us. As you progressively move on through getting the same one, the third, fourth, and fifth time, the fees get greater and greater. And hopefully, this will encourage folks that didn't know, OK, hey, whoops, I now have some information. I can contact someone. And those that know, they know. We work with our customers. We spend an amount of time, especially first time in college. These are the kids fresh out of high school. It's a brand new world for them. So we spend a lot of times doing outreach for them to help them navigate that transition into life. And part of in our department, we kid that they're in class studying whatever topics are of interest to their major or personally, but we're kind of helping them in that transition into life. So you get that citation, call us. Let us hear from you. Let us know what's going on. Warning stickers, we've made a change this last year where we do put some warning stickers on vehicles' windows. They're bright green. You can't miss them if you see them driving around. That's basically a sticker that says, hey, we've noticed you have a problem on your parking account. You have 48 hours to give us a call. Let us hear from you so that we can help you with whatever it is. As a last resort, we have to tow someone or impound somebody's vehicle, but we want to make these efforts that folks say, hey, please call us. And again, a lot of these are students that are making decisions. They don't know the consequences. They're embarrassed. They're -- you know, they hope it will go away. And the worst thing we can do is impound their property, and it's just -- it spirals out. So we hope that some of these things say, hey, we're kind of serious. We really want to hear from you. And I think that's been a success this last year in the implementation of that in terms of people coming in to talk to us, and that's huge for us to have that opportunity to visit. Folks are busy. They've got a lot going on. I understand this is the last thing you want to do, but we want to help you be successful. And then proactive education through orientations, through residence halls, through community events, coming out and doing things like this. We want to reach out to folks, let them know the education so that here's what you can do. Here's the resources for you. Where do my parking dollars go? So I got to pay to park. What do I get for that? Local improvements, new parking lots. We've got $14 million going in at Founts, 3 1/2, we talked about at Apogee, Highland Street Garage. We've got a bond mortgage on that, so in 2042, I think we're paid off on that. So that's a $22 million facility that needs to be paid for. Operating and maintenance, lot maintenance, lights, striping, potholes, curb stops. Police services, we fund 80% of the UNT Police Department, so public safety. So your dollars get public safety on campus, which is very important. Event support, I mentioned commencements. We do an enormous amount of event support on campus. We're a destination for not only students, but guests and visitors that may be coming to hear a guest speaker going to a graduation ceremony or other type of events. So we're there as a destination, so we want to help folks, helps go. So again, my parking dollars, this is where they go. Notice this is not transportation dollars, it's parking dollars. Our next steps, we want to improve our partnerships with the City of Denton, with all of our stakeholders. This is part of that today. How can we help work with you so that you have the information that you need so when you hear from constituents, you hear from business owners, you hear from interested parties in the public about parking at UNT, you know where to go. We've enjoyed working with the staff, we look to increase that and make our staff available to you all so that we're a resource for you as well. Transportation fee sustainability, this is the bus fee. It was created in January 2003, at $3.50 per credit hour, and it has remained that fee ever since. So as you look at, you think, okay, well, what's happened over time, well, you look at what you paid for stuff in 2003 versus today, there's an obvious change. Bus drivers are making more money, buses are more expensive to buy, cost of doing business has increased. Yes, it's based on a student credit hour, so you say, okay, well, there's some growth. We've reached and long past that point where growth provides sustainability for that. So we have begun a discussion, we'll be continuing a discussion with student leadership on campus about what that sustainability looks like. Do we need to take a look at what services do you want? What do you as students want in terms of transportation and then what do you want to pay for? And make sure that the fee aligns with those expectations. And increased spaces on campus, reduces competition for parking, managing expectations, better bus service with new station. We've got a bus station going out at Fouts, there's a transfer, dedicated transfer station with amenities, covered waiting, it'll have Wi-Fi, it'll have monitors for bus arrival information. It's dedicated, so it's not competing right now like it does with pedestrians and traffic. So that will help that. We've begun to look at some long range planning with DCTA, the COG on some bigger projects that I think would complement not only the university but the neighborhood as we manage that destination as being a source for where people go. So there's some things out there. As we look at transportation changes, it's being competitive in the marketplace and we're fortunate in this area to be blessed with a lot of population, a lot of growth, a lot of people coming here, and we want to continue to lead on being competitive and being a choice for folks. So we think with the options that we've got, it helps students, faculty, staff, guests and visitors manage their trip out, and we'd like to continue working with you. So a very generic overview, you may have some specific questions, and we're happy to begin that conversation. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have today. Again, we're here, we are a resource for you, please let us know how we can help you. So I know it's very general, but I'd like to answer any questions that you might have. Yes, sir. You said that you lost 1,200 parking spaces on campus in the last couple of years due to new buildings. Yes. And you've added 500 out by Apogee where you've also added new facilities and there was already issues on game day, people parking in neighborhoods that we've been working on for years, and then you're adding 1,000 at Fouts, so you're adding 1,500 for a loss of 1,200, so you're a little ahead of the game plan, but the way I took your comment on, well, this 1,000 is going to keep us going for the next several years. So and you have to keep in mind, too, part of that answer is location issue. I have parking, it may not be exactly where folks want it. So if you take Welch Street, which is closest to the east side of campus, I'm very limited on what parking I have over there. West side of campus, Apogee area, I have plenty of parking. Even with the loss of those parkings, I had unused parking in those locations. People's natural behavior is, okay, I've got to go from home to class, I go from here to here, and they hop in their car and they go. Expectation is I'm going to park as close as I can to the building where I'm going. That's not entirely, depending on the time of day, day of the week, that may or may not be a good option for you. So we've got to educate folks on behavior that says, okay, you're dealing with thousands of people coming, you need to go to the west side of campus. We have buses going from there every few minutes that you could park at Fouts, you're there, and you're on the east side of campus quicker than you will swirling around. So part of what you've heard over years is people venting the frustration that this area of town doesn't have enough parking. Well I've got unused resources on this part of town. I've built kind of a bridge to get you there, and we're working with DCTA. Right now we have a circulator that goes clockwise. Now we're beginning to look at, okay, maybe I need a counterclockwise one as well. So if I'm parking at Fouts and I need to go to the library, I don't have to take the long way around. I can take the short way around. So I think there's still some things we've got in there. So that's the long answer. The short answer is I've had underutilized resources. I do need more parking, but hopefully by providing some of these solutions, we can affect behavior change that says, okay, yeah, that's farther out, but I can go park there, no problem. Get on the bus, and be there in no time flat, rather than having to play a game on swirling these lots, hoping that there's a spot in there for me, and that kind of frustration. So. Council Member Briggs. Yes, ma'am. I have a few questions. Yes, ma'am. The first question is how much is a parking permit these days? It depends. Okay. I've got free out at Med Park, upwards of, I have, for all intents and purposes, I have A reserve lots that are, will be $700 beginning this next year. For the semester? For the year. For the year? For a year. So a general academic student permit is going to be $275. So if you're looking at a student permit who's commuting in or living on campus, it's going to be $275 for 12 months. That's quite a lot. It is. And. I'm just trying to figure out why they're not parking on campus, and they're parking in our, further into the neighborhoods, and that might be a reason. So I just, I have a few more questions. Sure. So you mentioned you have 13,700 spaces with an additional 1,000 coming on. Of the current 13,000, does that include the city public streets? No. Or is that just on the. That's our property. Our property itself. Okay. So does that, and you said that you have enough to handle for that day, so that means that all students on campus and commuters have a place to park on campus if they would just use them. Yes. Yes. They do. But it comes back to paying for it. And that's, that's part of that, you know, I don't want to, people pay for things that are valued to them, they perceive that maybe this should be in there, that's, it's, there's, there's a lot to it. We're taking some steps, one, to work and build in some structures that make paying for the permit easier to do. We've got some hourly options that say, hey, I'm only on campus a couple times a week, maybe I pay for a couple hours of parking via my park mobile app. But even on the permit side, okay, looking at making sure that right now our permit is once per year only. We have no semester by semester permits. And so once you're in, you're in for the whole year, so maybe we need to take a look at more semester type permits. We're looking at some ways, how can I pay for my permit instead of right now, as an auxiliary unit, we receive no funding from the university. So we have to generate all of our funds on our, on our own. And right now that when you come to buy a permit, it's, it's a transaction, you pay me all right now and then I give you a permit, as opposed to maybe I can transfer that to your student account. And I think that will help students who are paying whatever for their housing, tuition fees and whatnot on their student account, it's, it's all wrapped up into one payment plan I've already got instead of having another one. But right now we're, we're a separate shop and you have to pay me separate from, from the rest of the university. So we're looking at some things that we know and it is our conversations that we've had with students. Students know they need to be in a permit because of citations and things like that. It's how do we, how do we make that economic or that financial choice a little bit easier for them to make? So I'm just a couple more comments. So to, to follow up on that. So when I was there at UNT 17 years ago, I mean, it was still paid as a paid lot. So you could either pay by the meter, which I normally did, and that was within the campus or get a permit back then, as well as now I still hear, well, I don't want to pay that because they're overselling permits. They're selling so many permits per space and I can't ever find a place when I do purchase one. Is that, is that factual or? So in general for let's take commuters and that, yeah, we over, we oversell in the reserved premium lots. They are generally not, but in the, the commuter lots, the ones, not everybody's on campus at the same time. So you begin to take a look at when are people coming and, and that function of the day of the week, Tuesday, Thursdays are the busiest day function of where, where, where am I going to park? Everybody says, okay, I've got a nine o'clock class. I'm going to go park on, on Welch street. Well, I tell you by nine o'clock, you're out of luck because a lot of other people have made it here. Again, go to that resource and it's planning your plan B if you will, okay. Go here, I've got parking there all day. We'll get you in and get you to class on time. But it's that behavior modification that we've got to reach in that messaging that says, yes, that may be a little bit further on your trip, but in net result of time, you're going to be faster. You're going to be more, more productive and less stressed and where you're going. So as I went to UNT many years ago, it hasn't changed and I parked on Oak and Hickory, but I didn't get, I didn't get tickets. I was part of that, but it worked for me. But I talked to a lot of students and it doesn't work for them and they need an option and we're working to give them some flexibility that may allow them to get a permit, get on campus and use some of these options that we've got because traditional on street parking or it's, I've got it here for you. The challenge is getting them to understand, okay, this is a value to me and making sure that they have the means by which to pay for that and not in a one size fits all permit. And so part of that's taking a look at, okay, I'm graduating in the fall. So we now have a fall semester permit or I'm only going to be here in the spring and not the summer. So I'm not paying for things I don't need. I don't need parking in the summer. Why should I pay for parking in the summer? So we're looking at some things that make that a little bit more of a benefit to them instead of here's your annual permit that may not be a full benefit to you. So that helps with price sensitivity. It helps with making those choices and there's a lot of them when you're a student between books and fees and classes and all those things. So we're trying to get those services out there. But it has, some of these are just, I don't want to say urban legends and legacy issues. Never parking over here. It's always this way. Yeah, there's some things that are similar, but there are some things that are not similar at all that are very different and we need to get past that emotion and say okay, here's what we can do for you and help you get there. So one last comment. So we have the two parking garages. How do those work for your students? So they are hourly. The Highland Street Garage, which is the seven story structure, we sell permits by semester. So spring, fall and summer. You can buy an annual one or you can pay by the hour. And so it's $2 an hour. The Union Circle Garage is park mobile and so you can park there on any of the three floors. So it's hourly parking. Park mobile. The Highland Street Garage actually has a booth attendant. It has credit card machines and you can pay that way. The Union Circle Garage is park mobile, so it's pay by app. And just the last comment. Can we get this presentation in the backup or online uploaded to the agenda? Yes, ma'am. I'm happy to leave this here and get that to you all. Thank you so much. Yes. I've got a couple of questions. Yes, sir. So I don't know if you've got a number for this, but what would you say is the peak parking demand? Our numbers say, so on a daily basis, anywhere from 20,000, 22,000 transactions a day, okay. But I've got folks here all day, all night. But our busiest day is a Tuesday, Thursday because of classes and instead of coming three days a week or five days a week, they're utilizing that Tuesday, Thursday. That timing of that is really from 8 o'clock until about 1.32-ish and then we drop off. And, you know, I didn't talk about, we actually have a number of folks going to class. Out of that class is until 11 o'clock at night, labs and whatnot. We actually have an evening permit for folks that's about $125. So after 5.30 at night, I have tons of parking available, so we have a very discounted rate for that too. But in terms of peak, that's our peaks. So when you say that 13,700 is enough to meet the demand, you know, is that taking into account not just people missing the opportunity to park in better geography where it's available, but also their timing? In other words, you've got 22,000 people, they're not all there at the same time. Correct. But it sounds like, you know, how do you fit 22,000 parkers into 13,700 spaces? Is it that they're-- Different times a day. Yes. So look, I've got reserve lot right in the core of campus, lot number four that I hear about frequently. It's half empty. It's a reserve lot. It's totally full and I have a waiting list. So we did some surveys of our permit holders last year and said, okay, we'd like to increase the utilization of this lot. Could we interest you in a timeshare permit, an AM reserve permit, a PM reserve permit? What could we do? The overwhelming responses were do nothing at all, keep it the same. So people are willing to pay for that space. So when they come to campus, irrespective of day or time, they don't have to worry about it. And that frustrates, you know, some on the campus because here's a prime spot. It's empty. It's sold out. And in fact, I've got people waiting to get on it, but yet you come any day of the week, it's going to be about half full. And that's because of, you know, teaching schedules and classes and we have a wide variety of people that do not have what I would call traditional Monday through Friday, eight to five hours. They're very, very widespread. So that's how you do that. That's how it's just a numbers, time of day, peaks and location. But what you hear is in the peak periods of the day, no parking, I couldn't get to class. I hear it from faculty, staff and students. And I've had people swirling a lot that I'm like, man, if you just went across the street, I got a whole spot for you, but that's the challenge. We had to go out and communicate and that's the challenge is when you talk to people about parking, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know how to park. It's not the actual physical act of it. It's the, okay, here's your challenges and how do we get you where you need to be? And then that's just behavior. In North Texas, it's I'm going to hop in my truck, I'm going to go to the front door, get out and go in. So how are you going to better communicate this kind of globally needed message of to park in the east, you should park in the west and ride. Yes, yes. It's outreach. So I'll tell you right now, we are in the midst of freshman orientation. So we see to the tune of several thousand folks graduate and leave every year. So the turnover, it starts with that freshman class and really drilling into them, here's what you need to do. Don't listen to your friends, don't believe what you read on Reddit, here's what you need to do to be successful. Park West, young man of mine. Yes, yes. And start with that and make sure that our services, i.e. our buses, met demand so folks go over and they go, yeah, that was pretty easy, I'm a believer in that. And they begin to do that. For faculty and staff, it is about relationships and building partnerships and we've got our work cut out for us and we're building those with faculty senate, staff senate, colleges, we go all over campus to talk about anytime, anyplace, we go to residence halls. We're eager and willing to go anytime, anyplace to get that message out there and it's over the last couple of years, we've seen a number of successes with our messaging. Some of the things that my RA, resident assistant, the folks on their floor, they get a ticket and they go to their RA and say, hey, what do I do with this? I don't worry about it. Well, we kept hearing from students, my RA said don't worry about it. So we went to RA training and said, okay folks, here's what we're hearing. Last year, I didn't hear that at all from students, so that worked. So it's those little incremental steps that I think in time will get there. But, you know, over time, I think it's about communicating that and that's the challenge and is everybody communicates differently? People hear certain things, people don't, you know, and right now with orientations as students come in, they leave with gobs of information, gobs, they're just overwhelmed. Mine's in there somewhere at the bottom and we've got to do, make sure we hit that back and that, you know, it's a challenge because students and faculty, staff, each of you look at the number of emails you get, not just maybe at work, but just personally, it's inundated. And how do we get through that noise to make sure, hey, this is meaningful and appropriate and yes, it applies to you. I've got just one last one for you. Perception versus reality. Yes. On the garages, Highland and near the Union. Perception, there's plenty of spaces, but it costs too much. So the university is not kind of pricing correctly on the demand curve, you know, that if you priced it a little lower, you'd fill it up more and you might do better on the revenue as well. Is that reality? Reality is the garage, especially the Highland Street garage, is busier now than it's ever been. It was underutilized for many years. And in the last two years, now I've been with UNT in this role now for 24 months, so I can go back to that. I can tell you, you know, where it was before. But it's busier now than it ever is. So we have about 900 and some odd spaces in the garage. We sell 600 permitted access cards to people. So about two-thirds. And we leave a third for transients. Last year was the first year we sold out of our allocation of access cards. And we sell those to students, faculty, staff, contractors, vendors, whoever wants to pay, you know, $650, we'll take your money and you can park in the garage. We sold out of that allocation, first time ever. Garage opened in 2011, okay? We have a new visitor tour center just catty-corner from us, fabulous building. This is their first stop, is the garage. We've got a new dining hall, restaurant area going in right across the street from us. So I think those realities that there is plenty of parking, we're not pricing it right, are gone because that whole corner is going through a dramatic change. And we'll see that complete sometime next fall or a year from fall. So thank you. Well, personally, I really appreciate you coming and sharing this perspective and giving us a chance to start a dialogue. And we'd like to continue. We'd like to continue. It is reciprocating. Councilor Ryan? Just one more question/comment. Technology is very important, and I hear the different ways and I'm listening to him getting a little confused. Okay, at this garage you have an attendant or you have a pass and this one you use the app and here you have to have this. And I remember, it's been a lot longer than 17 years since I was at UNT, but it's been a while back and I would get confused as to what lot I could park in. When I think of who has a lot of parking, I think of the airport, the DFW airport, and they utilize the toll tag. Have you talked to them to see if there's a way to integrate that? Maybe your toll tag number can be tied in if you've got a permanent pass that it would read as you go in. So we have, in a Highland Street garage, for example, we have the ability to use the transponder on the toll tag. We have the same equipment that NTTA has and we have that capability. Integration is not something on their table. I'd love to be able to. It works at the airport because it's political and it's made to work and I think if we want to apply some dialogue and we're happy to have that, it's just not been there. We have the technology to do that, to make it easy. I think it makes for a great experience, but there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes to make that seamless as you go to the airport. I love that. I couldn't remember where I lived, unless it was Denver or somewhere, I could go through a fast food and it read your toll tag and paid that way and I thought, "Man, what would they think of next?" But the technology's there. How do we integrate that with our partners to make sure that we're providing a great experience? So while that's not possible right now, the technology's there. It's a matter of building that relationship and doing that. So in terms of what we have now, in terms of the services and the variety, our biggest bang right now is to make sure that we're not flooding everyone with too many options and too confusing and that some of that what we've got. And so we'll begin to make it simpler so it's easy to understand, less confusion and then take a look at some of those higher level ones where we use technology that folks already have and we work on that because I think anything we can do to make it simpler, easier and enhance that experience, we'd love to do. You know, I actually, I'm grateful to the members of the public for your indulgences. You hit a couple of other, you hit these items before we get to the next one that you probably came about. But the main thing I had in mind to ask you about, first to a fact check, is who is responsible for parking enforcement in the two hour parking on Hickory Street adjacent to UNT? It depends. Who's supposed to enforce that? It depends. Generally us. In the Frey Street Business District, we have an interlocal agreement with the city to enforce that and we do do that. There's another perception reality question you probably can, you can probably formulate it for me and save me the trouble. Yeah, it's that we don't and it doesn't turn over enough and that's a density issue there's some students who understand how to move, park around. We do electronic chalking when we go to a car so we're not actually, and believe it or not, the old tire chalks you used to see, that's now damaging your property and some cities don't allow it. So we do electronic chalking. So we do go through there and again, it's right there in the heart of campus. It's a huge, huge busy area. But we do enforce that and we have worked with the business district, the city staff, we're anxious and willing to have that conversation to improve that. I think we've got some changes coming up with the bike lanes and some of the hickory work that's going on with Avenue A. The parking there I think may help that. I think it's communicating with those stakeholders that here's what we are doing and letting them know, again, when I have a question, who do I call and how do I get some answers for that. And I think that's an initiative we're happy to work on and make sure those business owners, some of us, some of them know us. I would suspect some do not and some have had some turnover and staff. So just to go out there and make sure they know who's out there helping them and if they've got concerns and I've had some relationships with business owners, they'll call me, they'll email me. I get to know them and we work that out. So but that's another relationship I think we can do a better job on with that area. And so we'd love to continue partnering with you all on that. But again, as you hear those things and you go, oh, man, let me know, I'm going to leave some cards for you all today. Share those. They do me no good. So pass them out. And we really want to be a partner. And as you hear those things, I want to know so that we can go back and if it's a more strategic discussion we need to have on, you know, enforcement, some things like that, let's start that discussion. If it's communication, let's begin that and go out there and let people know who we are. Thank you. Anything else? Okay. Thank you all. I appreciate your patience and the questions. I do look forward to coming back. Yeah, I'm sure staff will use that card, but it's a good use. Great. I'm going to close that item, and I'm going to open item F and just to say a little bit in advance the way we'll work this is we'll have staff give a presentation, then I'll open the floor to citizen comments, and then we'll deliberate, okay? So item F, receive a report and hold the discussion regarding updates on the Forest Ridge Neighborhood Street Improvement Projects. Good morning, Chair, Committee members. My name is Preet Tamdeshmukh, I'm the Deputy City Engineer, and I will be going over a brief presentation just to give a background of what has happened, where are we, and what's going on with this particular item. So just a quick location area, this is a segment of Forest Ridge just south of Hobson Lane, and currently only this particular segment between Hobson and Timber Green has a median. The rest of Forest Ridge all the way down to Ryan Road does not have a median. This particular segment is about 46 feet wide, it has a 6-foot median and 20-foot travel lane/parking bike area on both sides of the median. South of Timber Green it transitions into a 43 for a little short period and then dies down to a 40 and 38, it's a combination. So it's a narrower segment south of this particular area. So the way this project came about was, there was back in late last year, early this year, there was talk about Forest Ridge being, and this whole neighborhood actually, let me go back, Highview Circle, Highview Court, and Forest Ridge were on the street reconstruction schedule, they were scheduled to be reconstructed this summer. And when this discussion started, there were residents and the HOA requested city staff to attend an HOA meeting in February, and based on the meeting and based on discussion, it was determined that most of the HOA members did not want the median, wanted the median to be removed as part of this reconstruction project. While the city crews were out there doing the repayment, they just wanted the median to go away. A little bit of background, the median is currently maintained by the HOA, which is voluntary, which are very few members that pay into the HOA. They maintain the landscaping within the median. During the meeting and after, or before the meeting, we did receive a letter from the HOA president saying that they are all in favors. There were several signatures in the petition that wanted to get rid of the median. So we had to go through a process. Here's the schedule for that particular reconstruction project. We are currently working on the Highview Court and Highview Circle area. We're going to wrap up construction for that particular area by the end, by beginning of August. We're beginning construction on the Forest Ridge segment in the middle of July. So that's where our timeline is currently. We don't want to change the schedule, we're going to move forward and as part of that, we started that conversation early on this year. So we put out a survey after the HOA meeting to find out what the residents wanted. This survey was put out April 13th for a whole week and it was submitted, a link was submitted to the HOA for them to forward it to the residents. So based on some of the questions you can see here, there were questions like do you live in Forest Ridge, what street do you use to get out of the neighborhood? As you can see, most of the people get out on the north side on Hobson, quick connection to either Teasley or 1830 and 377. The second question was do you want the median to be removed? And this is slightly misleading, right? If you look at the surface, it says no, 44%, doesn't matter, and then yes for 33. When you dig down a little bit deeper into some of the answers that they picked at a later stage for these 23%, 4% didn't really pick a street layout, 1% picked a no median option so that becomes 45 and then 18% that picked a no median option, I'm sorry. The total median removing vote went up to 51%. So that's the-- little bit of background on the survey that was conducted and then a-- >> Sure. >> Question? >> So was the survey that was conducted by the same people, the high percentage that do not live on that street? >> The survey respondents, yes. >> Are from that-- okay, just making sure, thank you. >> Correct. And then these are the options. If you look at it, 43% picked the option that had medians in there so-- and then 21 picked the option number 3. I'll go through the options and then we can talk about different things. This is the existing condition. As I mentioned, it's a 46 feet wide segment. It has parking lane in the southbound direction on the west side of the street. There is one travel lane, median in the middle, another travel lane in the northbound direction and then there's a bike lane so parking is prohibited on the northbound-- in the northbound direction. >> Actually, sorry. If I can just go back a minute 'cause I know this median issue is a lively one. Was there any kind of a open end on why, like why does somebody want it, why does somebody not want it or is it just general? >> It was general and in the past, we've received concerns and while talking about option 5, I'll go over what concerns people had about the medians and removing them. So I'll touch on that while they're requesting. So as you see, there is a bike lane. This area is no parking currently but one of the issues that we've constantly heard in the HOA meeting as well is a lot of people still continue to park especially services. There are services such as lawnmower, plumbing and stuff like that. They will come in, leave their vehicles and block this bike lane. So the bike lane is sometimes not available. People have to swerve into traffic. So it is not-- that was part of the-- first part of the issue that we're trying to address and then on option 5, I'll touch on other issues. So the first option we presented, what can we do to change once we take the median out if we go that route? What are our options? So leave the parking on one side, add a bike lane with a one-foot buffer. It would be mostly striping. It's not possible to install physical barriers so this is more of a striped buffer. Have the two drive lanes in north side direction, again, a one-foot striped buffer and then a bike lane. This was not a well-liked option. A lot of people did not like this option primarily because of the narrow buffer and no physical barrier with the bike lane. That was one of the bigger issues. This is another option that people didn't really appreciate much is the two-way left-turn lane in the middle with bike lane on one side, parking on the other side and then two lanes for travel. That was the second option. Here is the option that was presented at the community meeting and this was well-liked. I'll talk about a little bit what happened between the option three and what we're recommending. It is a slightly modified version of this but to the betterment. Here what was happening is the bike lane/walking path would remain the same level as the street. There will be buffer. This would be a median/bolt-down curb. We were looking at different options. This would be a semi-physical barrier but this will remain at the same level as the street. There will be two travel lanes and then parking on one side. Option four, try to create a walking area with just striping and a buffer on one side, shifting the parking closer to traffic lanes so you'll still have that parking lane. There will be a buffer lane for walking people. There will be two travel lanes, again two foot buffer and then ultimately a six foot wide bike lane. This option, even though there is a walking area, was not liked that much because this is not a physical separation. It is still on the street level. There will be parked cars, opening doors and stuff like that so this is not the most ideal alternative. Option five, I've mentioned briefly before, there were concerns by residents that live between Highview Circle on the north end where it connects and then south end that have access and driveway access onto Forest Ridge. They have to make a U-turn depending on the direction they're traveling. Once they try and make a U-turn, they swerve a little bit to the right just so that their cars and trucks can make that U-turn and while doing that, a lot of times there are other cars that are behind them trying to sneak in expecting this car to park here or pull into the other driveway and they get into an unsafe situation. It was brought to our attention, several residents complained about this issue and this was the other aspect they were looking at for removal of the median. There were different options and one of the options was what if we created sort of a little bulb out or a median extension and then restricted the bike lane so the bike lane would go away and cars would start using that or they would use the bike lane area to do that and this was not a popular option as well. This is not something that the residents liked. So recommended option, I want to go back and forth a little bit between the recommended and option number three which was what was presented at the community meeting and well liked. One of the things I do want to point out is in this option we have parking on both sides. In going with option three if we went with this option there was likelihood that the services folks, the lawn mowers, the plumbers would still try and park and get into this area driving around into the bolted curbs and stuff and still parking and using this area. There was one of the concerns that was brought up because there's only parking on this side but that side they literally have to drag their equipment across the street and this is something that they would not prefer. So that was one of the issues. The other issue was this alternative does not pull this bike lane or this walking area above or out of the street level. The recommended option if you look at it we are completely raising it six inches above the ground. It creates a fully separated area for biking and walking. This area also is wider. It's about eight feet and then this parking would create a buffer for cars traveling here. One of the things that was brought up in the community meeting was speeding and if we allow parking on both sides that would really create a sort of a traffic calming if cars are parked on both sides. Traffic vehicles travel slower than no parking areas. So that's our recommended option. At this time we're here to receive direction so that we can move forward with construction. We already have a consultant on board to redesign this and move forward in the next month or so, less than a month, and once we get direction from this committee we can move that direction and get it constructed. Any questions? Any concerns? Well, I'd like us to hold our questions and let's hear from citizens. So I'll call you in the order. I've got them here. If you'll come up to the podium, state your name and address, you'll have three minutes and your time begins once you give your name and address. Okay. Ready? All right. So, Carol Womack. Your card notes that you do wish to speak in opposition. My name is Carol Womack and I'm at 6 Highview Court. I guess my feelings, I'm a little away from it, I don't have any trouble with it. I mean, I want to leave it alone. That's what I want. I think some of this stuff, it may be one person that has problems with it. Maybe three. Maybe, you know, I'm far a stretch, but I just don't think we have had a long time on Highview Court getting that done. And I guess the workers and everybody has done the best they can, but it has been extended. And in that case, I guess it's just a personal thing because now they're going to do Highview Circle and if they take the medium out, it's not going to be through in August. Probably in August '22. And I just am very opposed to it. I think it's silly. I really do. And having questions, this is not my forte. Questions? So have you, do you have any troubles or experience with what our staff mentioned on making U-turns? Or do you not attempt to do a U-turn? I don't have to. I just come down Highview Circle and then there's Forest Ridge and I turn usually left to get on Hobson. Or if I go the other way, I just head down toward Ryan. So you know, I don't have any problem with it. I just think it's a waste. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Anything else? Thank you. Ann Brown? I'd like to go last and let my neighbors go next. Well, I'm going in the stack order. That's fine with me. The next person to have is Lamont Brown. Do you agree to, we'll see who wants to go next. That's fine. Here I have it. Okay, Mr. Brown, just state your name and address and your time will begin. I'm Lamont Brown. I live at 5 Highview Court. First I want to thank the Mobility Committee for allowing us to be here and to hear the voices of the citizens. So thank you very much for that. Living on Highview Court, whether it's ingress or egress, whether we go Hobson or Ryan Road, we touch this affected area every time we leave our home or come back. So we see it and feel it more than anyone else living in the entire Forest Ridge area. We cannot leave Forest Ridge without going by this affected area that you're talking about. It is my opinion that the survey is flawed, to say the least. I don't know anywhere that there has been a survey where a group that did not vote for or against was grouped with another group that did vote for or against to tilt it in the way that it is now showing in this report. I also take exception to a statement, and maybe it was misstated, so I'm giving a lot of benefit of the doubt there, where in the presentation previous it was stated that option number 5 was not liked very much. Well, if you put back on the screen where all of the options were chosen, option 5 was picked 43 percent, option 1 15 percent, option 2 14, option 3 21, and option 4 7 percent. So out of that, I don't see where it can be concluded that most people did not like option 5. I am with Ms. Walmuck. I felt like the median should stay, but I'll say this, if it must be removed, I certainly hope that there is no parking. We've only lived there 22 years, and I was not aware that there was parking on the east side of Forest Ridge. I thought it was two bike paths. It's not marked as parking that I have ever seen, and so I would certainly want the parking options, if possible, omitted from anything that happens. My number one preference, as I just stated, is that we leave the median. I think it's a lot of character to Forest Ridge. One of the reasons that we purchased in that area 22 years ago was because of the character of that. And so if we'd wanted to go to a subdivision that allows parking on the street, there are others in the city of Denton where we could have chosen that as a particular option. So I think it's really removing the character from that end of Forest Ridge, and I would hope that you would choose not to do that. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Oh, yeah. Questions? No? Okay. And maybe after we take all the citizen comments, if you want to respond, you know, staff, to any of the sort of factual questions or assertions. So Wendy McQuade, just state your name and address, and your time will begin. My name is Wendy McQuade. I live at 9 Highview Court. I'm a total introvert. I am not one that likes to get up and talk. I feel very strongly about this issue. I am taking time off from work to be here. So I hope that, you know, that that passion kind of comes out in this time. Thank you for letting citizens and residents of this area come and speak with you today about this issue. I have lived in Forest Ridge almost as long as I've lived in Denton, which is since 2013, Forest Ridge. I love the neighborhood. I love the bike lanes. I love that the residents are out and about walking their dogs, walking their kids in strollers, jogging, running, biking, and there's all happening on Forest Ridge Drive in those bike lanes. I love the medians. I think it does give the neighborhood character. It's one of the things that really drew me in and made me want to live there. But as upset as I am about the whole survey, I am an HOA member. Yes, it's voluntary. I pay. Many people pay. I would like to know how many people actually responded to that survey. I would like to know how many people are residents in Forest Ridge and what that percentage is. So percentages don't tell me anything about how many people are actually having their input heard on that survey. My input was not heard. I had no idea about that survey. Before I get too mad about that, I'm gonna really focus on what I hate about this proposed option. I'm a cyclist. I had two dogs until recently. I use those lanes all the time. If we have parking on both sides of Forest Ridge now, so as a cyclist and as a dog walker, I basically can't use the southbound bike lane because people park in it, and it forces me to walk out into a lane of traffic where people are not expecting cyclists who are going slower than 30 miles an hour or, as many residents in Forest Ridge know, much faster than that in terms of how fast people drive. If we're allowing to keep parking over there, we put parking on the other side, we're narrowing the sidewalk, which is now no longer getting called a bike lane and a pedestrian area. It's now a sidewalk, so we're losing a bike lane, we're putting parking in, and now you have no visibility of anybody on that side of road. So I walk and bike and jog over to South Lakes Park from my house. I use that northbound bike lane to get over there. I use the medians between Highview Circle and between Highview Circle on Forest Ridge as midway stopping points so I don't get hit by a car and my dog doesn't get hit by a car from people coming flying over the hill between the two, the north and the southbound ends of Highview Circle. So I think there's a huge visibility issue here that nobody's talking about. I think there are a handful of residents on Forest Ridge who have vehicles that are too big to make a U-turn from a property that they purchased knowing that those medians were there, and they don't want to use Highview Circle to turn around to get oriented the way that they need to to get into or out of their property and headed the right direction on Forest Ridge. But I really don't like this sidewalk option. As a cyclist, I know that getting doored is a problem. Now we have cars that are right next to an eight-foot sidewalk with no buffer between passenger side doors opening and the sidewalk. The sidewalk is as narrow as it is now, the bike lane is now, and at popular times of the day, I have had to move into oncoming traffic lanes to avoid people who are walking their dogs or pushing strollers or jogging or biking because that is not wide enough to be a two lane for bikes and pedestrians. Eight feet is not going to cut it. If I want to cross from the east side of Forest Ridge over and back to my house, nobody's going to see me with parked cars there. It's a huge hazard, and I have lots more to say. I know I wrote a letter to you guys, and I appreciate your time. >> Thank you very much. If you will state your name and address, your time will begin. >> My name is Anne Brown. I live at 5 Highview Court, and I walk all the time and have for 22 years. So I'm very experienced in going up and down Forest Ridge, every way out of Highview Circle and every way back into it. I was called yesterday by Bill Smith, who said, "Please say everything you think and say I think the same thing." So I'm Anne Brown and Bill Smith. Wendy is so right. The medians make a huge difference. When you drive into Forest Ridge, it looks elegant. It has planting. It looks like a selected neighborhood. So we all like that, and they're going to keep the tree and that first median. However, the second median offends somebody because he has to make a U-turn. And my husband asked him, "Did you know that when you bought the house?" And he said, "Yes." So apparently for all the years he's lived there, he's been offended by that when I have a car that's very long and I don't have any trouble making a turn. So I don't think his vote should hold as much weight. Now all the people who live on Highview Circle, like Ms. Womack said, travel that area all the time. And probably I do more because I go to the grocery store every day. But walking is crucial to that neighborhood. Seeing your animals, elderly people walk, yesterday a lady with her bike and a little baby carrier behind the bike, and four kids in line behind her, all probably under five, were riding in the bike lane. And I happily stood aside so they could pass. I cannot imagine a raised sidewalk being called a pedestrian bike lane. I would think those little kids might take one wrong move and fall off that six inch that they're proposing. That just seems foreign to put that in forestry. So level, keep level. Make your lines or your buffers with yellow lines or whatever. But the last thing I want to mention is parking. We move there because we hate people who park on the street. They clutter up your street. They make it hard to -- you know, it isn't that we can't get around them. It's just unsightly. And Forest Ridge is very beautiful. And don't mess it up with saying it's okay to park over here. It's okay to park over there. Because there's a big difference between parked cars, like kids who rent a house and have four college students who all have a car and park all those cars on the street. That's unsightly. On Forest Ridge, it doesn't matter if the landscape people are there. We're happy to walk around them. They come once a week. They're a plumber, understand that. So I don't mind all the people who are doing their business. It's the parking that I find very offensive. >> Thank you. You're okay with the idea of let's staff address some of the things that come up and then we'll pick it up? >> So I do want to bring up that the -- according to the website Forest Ridge, there are 396 single-family home sites within that area. The survey had 112 respondents, and the results are based on 112 people responding to the survey. >> How many HOA members were in that petition that you got? >> So there are 11 HOA members that are in the petition, and most of them live on Forest Ridge on the other side, where they have to make that U-turn to get into their properties. >> So 11 out of, like, 300 and something in the neighborhood? >> Correct. But all of them live on Forest Ridge. >> Yeah. Most of them. >> Okay. >> I've got lots of -- >> Yeah. Who wants to go first? I'm inclined to give John -- >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> I'll go ahead first, because I was at the neighborhood meeting where this was presented and the results were presented, and as well as myself, there were several staff members, including Ethan Cox, and one of the questions I had is what's going to happen -- I don't know -- can you put back the option 3 that was proposed as the -- at that time? Yeah. With this, there's concern when you put that two-foot median in there over drainage, you're not really protecting it, and when the trash trucks come down that street to pick up on that northbound side, which is the side with the 13 homes, where is there -- is there -- they going to put the trash in the bike lane area, or are they going to put it out in the street, in which case now you've lost about three foot of your travel lane, so as we looked at the numbers, the 12-foot wide drive lanes could easily be reduced to 11, which in turn slows traffic. I mean, that's a natural -- if you've got a narrower lane that you're driving down, you're naturally going to drive slower. I don't foresee there's going to be that many more people parking there than what currently do, but right now there are, again, a lot of services that park on that northbound that aren't supposed to be parked there to begin with, and so that would continue, would people try and hop that little median to park in that 12-foot area, in which case you completely lost that area, which is what happens commonly now, as well as the trash. I'd ask that it be elevated and that it be done in concrete as opposed to asphalt as well, because of people walking their dogs, concrete stays cooler in -- am I on a three-minute limit too? I didn't realize that. That doesn't apply. I could think of situations where I might like it too. I rarely have a lot to say, so it seems strange I'd be put on a time limit. I guess it's the first time I've ever hit that three-minute limit. But the concrete would be cooler as a path to drive down as well, so as far as taking out the median or not, I can really go either way, but I will say, as I was going home one day, there was an accident at that median, and because it was someone that was in the parking lane pulled out, the person coming had no place else to go, couldn't get stopped in time. Well, now everybody that's before the previous break is stuck. You can't go until they had those two cars. Fortunately, I was in my three-quarter ton at the time and was able to drive over the median, but then I'm taking a chance. Can I get back around before -- and so the idea that the sidewalk is not -- that elevated sidewalk adds a definite element of safety that we've been looking at trying to do on bike paths. And part of it is a misconception that we call it a sidewalk on the slide here as opposed to a pedestrian path, because that's the current width of it, is eight foot. The thought of adding the parking on the other side is because it's naturally done right now by certain people, certain groups. If we wanted to shift it, I can see that, but I know that once this is done and this road is in good condition, the number of speeding complaints we're going to get is going to go up. So by narrowing it to that 11 foot, that will definitely help with that. So I'll see what y'all have to say, and I may come back with some other. Councilmember Briggs. I am not in favor of getting rid of the median. I think that when I saw the first picture of what was there currently, I feel like we are trying to bring other city roads to look like that. I thought, well, that's the complete street that we're doing. We're adding greenery. We have a bike lane, a safe area. We're dividing the traffic to keep it safe. And I thought, well, why are we changing something we currently have that we're trying to get other streets to look like? And I personally, what I heard you say was that the main issues were people pulling into the bike lane and also, let's see. So it was mostly just keeping people out of the bike lane, right? They were either parking there or, you know, pulling into there. So why don't we just make that side a protected bike lane, put spigots, do something to keep people out of that lane so that it is protected for pedestrians and bicycles. I was there yesterday driving and I saw three or four people walking and biking. And I think by adding parking lanes and taking the median out, we are discouraging people from feeling safe in that neighborhood. We have South Lakes Park just at the opposite end. We want to make sure that people can get there safely and continue to use their trail. I think that we're going backwards with this recommended option. And so that's personally how I feel. And I did not get one email in support of this from the 11 people that did sign the petition. And it would have been nice to hear from some of them and the reasoning that they did want it. I mean, I make U-turns all the time. So I just don't feel like we should completely make this less safer for pedestrians and cyclists for people who don't want to make a U-turn. Well, I'll chip in a bit here. First of all, I've done a lot of consumer research in my career and it's not the same thing as like an election, you know, where 51% is like massive, you know, that I wouldn't say you have consensus. You know, you just say different people feel different ways. So you know, I don't find that kind of determinative. The Forest Ridge is one of the most attractive neighborhoods in Denton just from having block walk that, you know, I wouldn't mind living there for sure. And I agree that that's part of the appearance of it. It's a very green appearing area. And so I think the medians contribute. And then, you know, kind of along the lines of what Councilmember Briggs just said, it just seems like a massive overcorrection. You know, it's hard to tell when to get through all the options. What was it we were trying to fix in the first place? You know, it seemed like a relatively narrow issue with, you know, just probably introducing more issues than you're correcting. So I actually landed in very much the same place. If the issue is people driving, you know, violating the bike lane, do more to protect the bike lane. Now, I imagine John's going to have something to say now, so I'm happy to hear it. Now that you're just going on and on these days. Because I do drive it every day. If we simply were to raise the bike lane up, and that's the best way to protect it, it's better than the little plastic sticks going along there. The best way to protect a pedestrian and bike path is to elevate it. If you just did that, now you are down and you left the median, you're down to a 12-foot lane. If anything happens in that lane, there's no place to go. And then what do you do with on Tuesdays when all the trash and recycle carts go out there, somebody puts it out a little too far, you've narrowed that lane where it's, it could be dangerous just driving down through there. I wasn't in favor of taking out the median in the beginning. I still would, you know, if there was an option that you could keep it, and still keep safety. But I'm keeping safety is the biggest, you know, part of this whole thing. And this gives you a total of 38 feet across there. That if there is an incident or a need to swerve out of the way of a parked car, out of the way of somebody that's walking across the street, out of the way of anything, you've got that option that you don't have with the median, you don't have that much space. I mean, if we needed to not put the parking on the north side, that's fine, but people are going to do it anyhow. And you still need some type of path in there for, or some type of a width in there for your trash and recycle, or they're going to end up putting it on the bike path, in which case now we've narrowed that walking path and we're back to the same issues of, you know, when you're talking about safety, this to me is the safest of the options. Can we hear from staff on -- oh, you look like you're ready to address -- on the trash recycling question. So I want to emphasize one of the biggest concerns that we had. If you look at some of these homes here, between Highview Circle and Highview, there is no other way for them to get in and out of this neighborhood than to make these U-turns. And one of the safety concerns is if we protect this bike lane as is in its current condition, this becomes a narrower path that Councilman Ryan pointed out, but at the same time it does not provide enough space for making this U-turn. So we are getting into a safety concern if we start protecting this area, elevating it, or doing anything else to this particular bike lane. The other concern with the trash is if we protect this bike lane, the trash has to be -- the trash truck, there's no way to get that within the bike lane. So if there's some kind of protection, they'll have to leave the trash in the travel lane. There's currently no space for that. Or leave the trash just out within the bike lane itself for the trash truck to come and pick it up. So there are a couple of safety concerns there. That's what they do currently. Go ahead, Dr. Todd. So just to be clear, one of the original petitioners, one of the concerns they brought up is a concern I also run into running down the street I live on, which is on Montecito. And it's that when people make the U-turn, it's not that you can't make it. You absolutely can. And you're absolutely right. It's been done for years. But what happens is invariably people try to swing a little bit to the right, which goes into that little parking area/bike lane/parking pedestrian lane. They begin to make a little bit of a right before they make the left. So they get enough room to make the U-turn, which when somebody's behind them appears that they're either turning into a driveway or turning into a street, and they start to pull around, and it causes that incident. So that's the nervousness that's coming from some of these homeowners. It's one of many things. There are multiple other options, and I agree it would have been nice to have heard from them directly. One of the things I don't want to lose in the conversation either is that we are trying to maintain a construction schedule. We have a lot of rehab money that has been promised to be put in this area. We're trying to keep that on schedule and on task. And while we want to try to address as many concerns as we absolutely can on either side of this issue, we are still trying to make steady progress on improvements in these areas. If I can just make one comment, isn't it possible to just treat the area of the intersection differently with respect to protecting the bike lane that doesn't have to dictate what you do along the whole length of it? It is. We've been confronted with this particular issue from the beginning is everybody has an opinion, and any option we take is going to have some tradeoffs, whether it's a safety issue or somebody is not -- they're not happy with what we come up with. It's going to be on both sides, and that's why we're seeking direction here is to get the best possible scenario that we can go forward and giving this to you all in the format of what are the tradeoffs? There's safety concerns, realistically, you have a lot of traffic cutting through that area on Forest Ridge, just like you do off of Montecito, that weren't there 30 years ago, 20 years ago, people trying to get back and forth to Ryan and their daily commutes and up to Hobson. There are concerns that we're realistically looking at going forward that is just a fact of how much commuter traffic is moving through this area as just the natural course of the day, trying to get to schools, trying to get to work, wherever they're headed, that wasn't present 20, 30 years ago. I think Councilman Briggs has been trying to get in there. What's the classification of this road? It should be a residential neighborhood. It's being used as a collector and somewhat arterial. I feel like the new proposed recommendations are more arterial and not residential for me. But I'm still, I'm not in favor, I feel like adding four lanes of vehicles is going to take away from the safety of children and people walking on the street. So that's where I am. You're interested in hearing from our bike and pedestrian coordinators as well? Would you mind just sharing some perspective? Your review of the options? Yeah, I think there's been some really good discussion about this. I am a little concerned about the width of that shared use path. Eight feet is really the absolute minimum and I was just looking up some standards. Ashtow does say in rare circumstances, eight feet may be used. So now it's not a super dense neighborhood and I don't see it being used as a thruway for many cyclists. I see it as people in the neighborhood using those facilities. So if there were a way to increase that width somehow, I would really feel a lot better. You know, as far as people passing, if you have two pedestrians approaching one another on a bicycle or something, coming eight feet is quite tight. That's my thought there. But there are advantages to keeping it on the road too. Any thoughts about dooring? It's much more likely to occur on the driver's side. On the passenger side, less so, we would have at least some kind of a curb, right, transition, so that would buy some space. That doesn't concern me a great deal. It would be great to have a buffer of something on that side. But on the pedestrian side, it's much less of a concern than on the driver's side. You know, I don't think we have -- go ahead. I just want to verify. Right now it's eight foot wide by path that's unprotected. In the rest of the length of Forest Ridge, it's eight foot wide unprotected. It is used not heavily by thru bicyclists, but there are quite a few from Ryan Road up to Hobson up to South Lake to go around the park. I see that fairly frequently, especially on the weekends. That's why I'm okay with the eight foot as far as the dooring issue goes. If you practice what you're supposed to, which is keep right, you're going to be closer to the homes if you're going north, and if you're coming south, you've got a visual of that person in that car, and if you see somebody kind of motioning like they're going to open the door, you're going to naturally be able to -- because you can only park in one direction. There's not going to be that -- it's not like -- you talked about you walk through the neighborhood. There's not that many people that do park on the street. It's mainly going to be your service trucks, you know, a few residents do in certain areas, and it's actually on the other side of Forest Ridge that we have a home that has normally two or three vehicles parked up front. That's pretty much all the parking that goes on on a regular basis on that street. So it's not like we're going to have a lot going on, it's just -- it gives you some safety for a place to go. It gives you the option that you don't have somebody trying to drag a lawn mower across the street. >> In my understanding, though, that currently with the eight foot current sidewalk, a lot of people do walk their dogs and ride their bikes in the street currently. >> Well, right now what happens is they try and stay in that path, but if there is a vehicle or, again, on Tuesdays is our trash pickup, any of those times, they have to swerve around those vehicles. They have to go out in the street to get around them because it's an unprotected -- so even though it's supposed to be a no parking, it's still a parking -- it's still used as parking for service vehicles. >> And so there's a way to handle that. If it's no parking, then it's a violation, which means that they could get a ticket. And so that's one thing that we're not doing, we're not enforcing that no parking. And if that's something we need to do, then we should be doing that on that. I mean, I don't -- >> Well, okay, I've mentioned the lawn care. You also have UPS, FedEx, those that can legitimately park there because they're making a delivery. Even in a no parking zone, you can't -- they can stop in the middle of the street if they wanted to, and based on state law, we can't enforce it, that we can't give them a ticket as long as they're just -- they're making a delivery. >> And so this is your district? >> Yes. >> And did you hear or have you spoken to any of the -- >> I've heard from both sides. Again, if there was some way to do it to keep the median, I would like to do that, but when I look at all of the safety aspects of it, yeah, and, you know, it was my recommendation to take it down from the 12-foot to the 11-foot because I think that that adds to that safety factor. I don't know if staff can give us any examples of where we have a 12-foot lane versus an 11-foot lane. I can think of right off the bat when I'm driving down Hobson and I'm trying to stay at -- it's a 30-mile-an-hour zone, and I'm trying to stay at 32 or 33, and I've got people on my tail constantly, and then as soon as I get onto Teasley, and it's 45, and I'm doing a couple over, and they're passing me like it's no tomorrow because of that feel of the wider lane, the feel of being -- you know, of the median in the middle that protects you from oncoming traffic, you know, those are things that increase speed as opposed to decreasing speed is the wider lane in the median. >> Do we have accident statistics from this area that would kind of give us guidance on the safety issues? >> No, I don't think we have accident statistics, but there are several near misses which are not documented, so I don't think we really track a lot of those that are near misses. >> What is the price? What is the cost of this project? >> That's a good question. I don't have on top of my head the actual cost for reconstruction for this particular segment. If we go ahead with the recommended option, I think the pricing will be increased about $50,000 or $60,000 just to have that extra concrete, and that's about it. >> Again, I'm out on -- I'm not in favor of the recommended option. I think it is the less safe option. >> I don't know if we've convinced each other of anything. >> I don't see how it's less safe if you elevate the path where vehicles can't get where people are walking and riding their bike. >> I asked Bike Denton to comment and review the presentation, and they said the recommended option was not the safest for them as cyclists, so I'm not a professional by any means, so I reached out for help, and there's a whole thing that I can send you on that that she -- >> What was their recommendation? >> Three. >> Okay. >> The -- what it says on there, the recommendation is a protected bike lane, but three is actually the most protected because it's separated from a -- by a median, so -- >> So just -- again, I don't want to get away from one item in particular, and that's -- there is a tradeoff on the timing and the cost when it comes to -- if we don't have a consensus, which I can appreciate, it's not trying to push a scenario that sounds like there's strong opinions on multiple fronts and different ways of getting to a solution. The reality is this roadway is NRCIP for being rehabbed, so it needs to be redone, has been waiting for quite a few years to be redone. If we don't make a choice on its ultimate configuration, what we can do is we can go forward with the rehab. People just have to understand that whenever there is a decision made to go forward with either a reduction in street width or a change in the cross section or whatever ultimately goes out there, we'd be back out to do construction again at a later date to keep the pavement rehab going forward and just put it back in place as it is. Some items we can go forward with striping, statistically across the country what we have seen is that as lanes are narrower, the feeling of being able to go faster is decreased, you feel less comfortable going faster, so certainly there are statistics that bear that out, and we can provide that. There's a -- the best way you can provide that feeling is to provide some kind of physical barrier, whether it's bulb outs at intersections or it's sidewalks or something that makes the motorists feel a little less safe going faster because the road is narrower. The more you widen it out, even if it's pavement and striping, the feeling's not quite as strong to make you want to slow down, hence why on Teasel Lane it's signed for 35 and 45 and people are doing 60, 65, and 70, it's -- they drive it like it's a highway, so trying to marry all those things up together is definitely a challenge, as you can tell, staff's done as much as we can to try to come up with a multiple of options, try to get some feedback and opinion. I feel like staff has done a very good job of trying to look at all sides and there's not a good answer that makes everybody happy, there just isn't. So where we are today is how do we get one program moving forward and then potentially come back with another option, or if we can come to a consensus on options to move -- on an option to move forward, then we can keep the rehab portion of the CIP moving forward as well. Well, can -- if we narrow the set, I would say you've got 2.4 votes here for keeping the median because you're like -- you're not like -- Well, there's -- unless we're looking at it dramatically expanding the cost of this, we would have to actually buy more right away in order to not have the median, I mean, to keep the median and create the safety aspect because another option is on the northbound side where it's currently no parking, that you now have a -- that we protect it and we now have a bike path and a pedestrian path there and keep it no parking so you've actually got 16 foot overall that part of it can be used for bikers and part of it can be used for walking because that is one thing that is missing until you get down to south of El Paseo. I think it is where the sidewalks start to pick up. There's no sidewalks on north of El Paseo on Forest Ridge. You could -- you could potentially add the sidewalks in so you've got an elevated pathway for the pedestrian that still have a five-foot bike lane so it reduces into the cross section but you still provide the passing area for limited spans of time when somebody might be dropping off, that is an option we can put into play. Is there time to come back and, you know, show us a couple more -- We're definitely pushing other items around in the overall construction schedule the more we talk. Now, if you go down one of those pathways, what we could do is we can continue down the repaving aspect but we'd have to be cutting into the asphalt, potentially working on easements, maybe right away to put sidewalks in. Just as you get into the segment, the older portion of Forest Ridge, the right-of-way is a little different in the way it's established and it's width and it's set up as the southern portion of Forest Ridge. So there are definitely some challenges, as Councilmember Ryan was talking about, bringing these other options to the table. What we were trying to achieve with these options was how do we continue to move forward, a street CIP that has been doing a great job over the last two years of catching up and not putting a big hiccup in the way. I mean, really what would happen is we'd have to move other projects up to the forefront and delay this after we're done with Highview Circle, which can be done. It's absolutely an option. It just means we're going to be in the neighborhoods here for a bit longer. We'll go away and then we'll come back and some folks will be just as frustrated that you went away and you came back. As if we just stayed put and we were able to make some decisions going forward. Can you put the recommended option back up? Yeah, what I'm talking about is on the right-hand side there where it says parking lane, just make that a bike lane there because they're naturally going to end up parking in it like they do right now. So bike lane and sidewalk. Bike lane and sidewalk. My request would be to make the other side also a biking lane so then you have just the two cars in the middle and then you have two bike lanes and then a sidewalk for pedestrians. And you'll increase speed so I'll forward to you all the emails I get on speeders on that road because once you don't have something there, and I can tell you there is one that the house on the other side, I think there's only one that actually faces Forest Ridge in this area on the other side, and they do have cars parked out there on a regular basis. And that's the one area that everybody slows down for because you've got a narrower path to get through there. Because the median's there. Yes, between the median and, and if you didn't have the median you'd have oncoming traffic, but having having that parking lane when someone is parked there naturally slows people down. And actually, just to be clear, you're, when you're saying if you go back to the recommended for a moment. You know, when customer Ryan is saying change parking lane to bike lane that's without median if you put the median back in there, if you don't have, I mean right now there's 20 foot on each side, if you get below that 20 foot and something is blocking one lane or the other you have no, nowhere to go. But that's also been true for forever, right? Yeah, and just, but it's been a safety concern for quite some time. So that's so that's why I asked for statistics and there isn't anything like it might be an abstract in low speed accidents usually don't create that much damage that our police department's even going to show up so unless you could get the insurance company to tell you where accidents occur, you know, not every accident in the city goes through our police department only those generally that have injury or her substantial and I think part of I mean a bolster what counselor Ryan saying part of what is occurring here is really those near misses having been in one of those scenarios on Montecito where the exact same thing happened where I was right behind somebody who was turning left didn't turn a signal on they started to go right looked like they were pulling over. So I accelerated to go around and they immediately turn left to turn to their driveway and there's no median over there but it's a nice wide street luckily I was going slow enough I hit the brakes and wouldn't able to didn't run into anybody so there was no incident but it's a near miss and that's a street without the media. It's hard to quantify that statistic. Yeah, I'm not you know overwhelmed by the necessity to, you know, to personally to rejigger the whole thing, I could see some argument for relooking at just the intersection part, you know, to modify that to make the turns possible, and I don't know what all the solutions are but they're very clever, you know, kind of moderating and tapering and guiding it to avoid this business of people move over and then they, you know, pull in. So, you know, my, my reaction is, or my input is take a look at the intersection, but not change the lanes. And, you know, you don't have, you don't have consensus here, but I, but I'd be if there's you're telling us like wow we're under the gun. It's the first time it's come before me. So I don't, you know, feel like I like if we're seeing it at the last minute that's kind of a problem, I guess, but, you know, I'm willing to take a second look at something that's got this much dissent and community concerns on. So, so, you know, I'd be interested in a couple of options that respond to what you've heard today. And so the whack and I also don't mind meeting more frequently than we have if we need to get back to, you know, with reaction sooner. So let me just offer this as a suggestion. Given the amount of options I'm hearing and the consideration for alternatives that all involve considerable amount of design, which will not get done on the timeline that Streets was attempting to try to get to, my request would be that if we, if we want to look at this in a different light, we absolutely can, we're perfectly happy to do that. But we need to reduce the expectation that Forest Ridge is redone this year. It would be really next year before Forest Ridge is redone from a pavement standpoint. And I'm not sure from a pavement assessment standpoint, I don't know condition-wise, Danny, you might be able to figure this out. Yeah, I mean, it was low enough that it was part of the 2012-2014 bond programs. If we delay a year, does that really give us too much heartburn? Probably not. We're definitely going to be all over the neighborhood for a couple of years now, back and forth, doing multiple things, but we can come back just understanding that it's going to take longer to get over there to do this piece. Hurry up and do something, you know, people don't like and strike me as, you know, a great answer. So I think that might, so I think taking the time to get it right might be the right, it might be the right way to go. Comments? I go back to my original thing, I just don't see a safe option, and you can say it's been that way for, you know, since 1980, but in 1980, there was probably a tenth of the amount of traffic that there is on this road right now. On the other sections where there is not a median, and there is somebody walking in that biking lane, and because I drive it again every day, if there's not oncoming traffic, I have a tendency, and I generally drive that at around 25 miles an hour, I have a tendency to move over into the oncoming lane just to give them enough space. If they're walking a dog and that leash is long enough for that, I had a dog lunge at me yesterday and I was far enough over that, you know, there wasn't going to be any incident. But the natural tendency is if you see somebody, you know, to try and veer over, and the way it is right now, there's no place to go with that median in there. There's no place to get out of their path. It's stop, that's it. I'm still feeling the same. I look at the picture where it says existing condition and I see the drive lanes, the separation with the median, the greenery, and then the bike lane, and I think that if we had something to protect that bike lane or separate it, I'm just thinking if we wanted to redo the whole thing, can we make the median a little bit smaller? I just look up there and I see two parking lanes with cars. I see four lines of cars and a little bit of area here for the bike lane completely goes away and now it's just a sidewalk. That is not going to be safe and it's not going to encourage people from the neighborhood to walk and not drive. They're going to drive to the park now because they're not going to feel safe riding their bikes. And I think that is far from where I am personally in my philosophy. And so that's just where I continue to stay. So I think the reality is we're going to futz around with it some more and I think we ought to come back to the community some more. This reminds me a little bit of, God forbid, the Hickory Street bike lane thing. It took a lot of runs at it, but I think we're ending up in a really good place. And goodness knows that stretch of road is needed resurfacing really badly and I hear about it more frequently than any other, but I'm really glad that we took the time to get to the right answer for the community. I think this is going to take some time. Okay, Councilmember Briggs, then Councilmember Wright. Because this recommended option is a new option, is it possible to have another meeting and show them what this is with the parking and the sidewalk? I would say based on the direction that we've heard today, we would want to kind of clean the slate, so to speak, and come back with some alternatives that would better reflect both sides of this, but I would also just put on the record that we're delaying the reconstruction as well so that we don't throw money after this, might go repave it, and then turn around and have to do another project which would cost more money to redo whatever we're going to do. So my preference would be is we're more than happy to go down the pathway of exploring some alternatives that might add to the cost of the project, but I really don't want to spend more money this time, then turn right around next year and ask for more money to come back and redo something again. It would just be a delay. The residents will have to understand as well that we're not going to get to Forest Ridge until this issue is settled and we'll repurpose crews to go do other things in the queue. I don't think anybody wants to do it twice. Right. I don't hear any advocacy for doing it twice, but I do hear a lot of concern with getting it right for the community and, you know, getting us, you know, we're usually not that contentious of a group of three, you know. So I think it's possible that we'll get, you know, that we'll find our way to something that will work for everyone, but it's going to take a little more work to get there. In hearing Councilmember Briggs' comments, again, if on this scenario you took out the parking lane on the northbound side, on the right-hand side, and made that a bike lane, and you could even do that as a 10-foot and then do a 6-foot sidewalk, that little bit of a change I don't think is going to hurt engineering much, but now you've got both. I mean, you've got everything except for median that's currently there, and you've added a safety aspect of that sidewalk that protects pedestrians that is an element that's currently not there. So have you got an input to help you on the next round? Yes, I think we've got the primary direction, which is we'll replace another element of the CIP ahead of Forest Ridge from a paving standpoint. That isn't the primary, that's a side effect. No, it really is, because we've heard from the neighborhood, multiple citizens of the neighborhood, how bad that road is and it needs to be redone, but I really don't want to go redo it, only if turn around and redo it again. I think that would be a waste of taxpayer money as well. That's true. Let me offer this. You know, there are so many options that are being discussed, and you all being here, and everything being designed at the podium, and it always makes it a challenge, so why don't we offer this up, looking at sort of the blended option of adding that bike lane where that parking lane is, and see what the engineering requirements of that, cost differences, timing differences, and let's bring that back to you all along with some of the other things that have been discussed here, and I don't know, we can talk through it as far as staff, how long that will take, but we need to bring that to you. I'm sensitive to the fact that this is, this project is behind, it's just going to cost more, we're going to add more frustration to not only the existing homeowners, but just coming back, you know, so I just want to make sure that you all have all options on the table, and so you can see, if we go down a path of delaying it further because of we're just, we need to redesign the whole thing, at least you all know, and we can accommodate accordingly as best we can. So you'll come back with that option, you'll come back with your best shot at fixing the issues around the intersection, but keeping the meeting as well? And the other thing, correct, and then we'll also, the other thing too, I think we need to also fold in that if the direction is moving forward that we go back to the public as far as a public meeting, when we would do that, especially in the summer months, we just need to fold that in as part of the time frame, because again, if it's going to require more time, we're not going to make the July kickoff of construction, so that's a given, but how much further will it delay and what will it impact overall operations and construction and budgets, et cetera. You need to know that. Fair enough. My request just came from the survey said they wanted one option and then the recommended option that had never been seen before, and so by saying that's the one that we choose without it actually being the one that was chosen is problematic, and so, and then also I also offer, you know, if it's the median and it's the beauty and it's the greenery, then if we could, you know, maybe reduce the parking lane a little bit and then they have those really pretty lane separators with plantings that the HOA could, you know, do, there's a way to add some greenery back in somewhere that the HOA would continue to maintain might be, you know, a way, because that's part of the main concern is getting rid of the unique beautiful character aspect of it, and I'm sensitive to that, too, because there's not a lot of neighborhoods with that left, so thank you. Good enough. I know it's not what you wanted, but clear enough to get to the next step? Yes, sir. Okay, thank you. Do we have, are we out of this room already? No, I think the council meeting starts at 1.30, so we do have some time. Yeah, and that's just photos, so it's 3 o'clock, I think, is our actual meeting, meeting. Great. Thanks for, you know, all the effort, and it's just some things are difficult, you know. That's why we're here. Thanks to members of the public for sharing your thoughts with us. So I'm going to close item F, and it looks like we've got item D then. Is that all right? Is there a problem? Yeah, I think if we can get to item I, so that we can have John present. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yep, very good. Okay, so I'll open item I. This is a report and hold a discussion regarding TxDOT on system projects in the Denton area. Not fast enough. I know you were about to take a nap up there. (inaudible) (inaudible) Okay, ready to go? Whenever. It's only a couple billion dollars worth of projects. Hopefully it won't be as contentious as the last item. Because I don't broach any dissension about anything I'm working on. So just kidding. All right, 2181 North South project. Berkshire Hathaway still has not selected a replacement firm for MCM. The issue is they're trying to put the contractor that they select responsible for all of the work that MCM did previously. And those contractors that are shortlisted from the original bid from TxDOT, if they're going to assume responsibility for the work MCM did, then they're going to assume they have to do it all over again. And it's about a 17 million dollar difference between what Berkshire thinks the contract should be and what the contractors are bidding. So we think that unfortunately Teasley slash 2181 will stay in its existing condition at least through the summer. That's my Brian. Thank you. I had sent an email off and this was back probably in February or March requesting that we at least get some temporary sidewalks in. Are those in? Yes, so they call it a ped path. And what TxDOT did was the areas that were exposed, they covered up and then they used a they're going to call it an improved surface. It's more like a gravel. But there is a pathway all the way along the corridor for the Ryan High School students. And that's been in place for about two months. So short story, we still have a contractor on 2181 and we anticipate that stand that way through summer. Best case scenario. You're 377 Fort Worth Drive. We're going to jump straight to the TxDOT report. Currently, we're having some utility issues with the cities working very closely with TxDOT in the area of the trailer park. And that's currently kind of throwing us off on because we're doing all the utility work first and a lot of those utilities are city utilities. And there's some issues that we came across in the trailer park area. I don't have my glasses. I can't see this. It's too small. So I'm just going by Braille right now. So the issues with the railroad, we've gotten them to start -- Let me make it bigger for you. There you go. Wow, technology. Now I can see it. One more click and I can read it. Okay. Now I just got to get lower. I've got other strengths. So again, it's the issues are with the storm sewer line through the trailer park. There are a lot of constructability and conflict issues, but we're working through that. We have gotten a better relationship with Union Pacific Railroad on their construction documents related to being able to do the shoefly. So that's resolved. And the contractor is actually working on that. So they continue to be a November 2020 completion date. And so far, we think we're still on track for that. Your 35E Mayhill project, I'm going to cover a couple of things here. First, this project has got a November 2020 let date. It's fully funded at the $53.4 million. It's already been environmentally cleared. And we're looking at having the -- we have a schematic that we'll bring over to the city at the next mobility. We have an on-system task force meeting every two or three weeks. We'll bring that to them to look at to make sure we're good to go. We minimize the right-of-way footprint so we can avoid James Wood dealership because of the cost of the right-of-way. And we're in the process of acquiring the right-of-way for this project as we speak. Then your 35E Luke 28 Brinker Mayhill. On this project, I'll discuss a couple of things. One, the next switch of traffic, they call it phase two, step two, is to take all the traffic and put it back up on the new southbound main lanes. And that will happen in the July/August timeframe. You see that they've got the beams placed for the Brinker southbound. And they're now doing the deck construction. And they've got the beams placed for the 288. And they continue to work in that area. And then by the time late July/early August comes around, they should have both of those bridges completed and the traffic moved up to and in the proper bridge locations. So in this area, I wanted to talk, I got a question from staff about some sound walls in the original project that for the Unicorn Lake area and that area, I don't forget the name of the residence, but it's that Italian-looking thing over there by Unicorn Lake. Yes. So Mario asked me to cover this, and I apologize. This is, it's like watching paint dry. But there is a process that the state has to go through when they establish where those sound walls will be. They initially determine who is an impacted or benefited receiver along the corridor. And then they do a noise study associated with those receivers. They have a projected noise envelope for the traffic in 2045 or 2040, whatever that design year that they're designing the facility for. And then they take those calculations and they determine in a corridor segment, there may be 10 or 12 impacted receptors. And of those 10 or 12 impacted receptors, maybe only eight are what would be benefited from the wall. And then they do a calculation. It's feasible and reasonable. And I always get those backwards, but it doesn't matter. You just switch the definitions if I get them wrong. But the feasible, or the reasonable, feasible is you can lower the noise by five decibels by putting up some type of attenuator. I'm not going to say a wall because there's more than one way to attenuate sound. But if an attenuation can reduce the noise to a benefited receptor by at least five decibels, then it is a feasible concept to put a wall there. If the wall costs more than $25,000 per benefited receptor, then it is not reasonable. And the wall, while it's feasible and warranted, isn't built because it's not reasonable from a cost standpoint. And that's a dollar amount that the Federal Highway Administration has established. And it's a nationwide policy and you can't violate it. And the reason you can't violate it is they don't want more fluid communities being able to buy more environmental justice than poor communities. So environmental justice precludes you buy more environmental protection. So if it doesn't hit the reasonable factor, the wall can't be built. In this particular case, although I just gave you a long definition, the neighborhood in question was not inside the noise envelope that was determined to be a benefited receptor. So they were never warranted, even consideration for a wall. So that was the long answer to a very silly process. Any questions on that? Because I know I got questions on that. And I thought I wrote a very good dissertation to Mario, but he said that he still wanted me to explain it. >> Councilmember Briggs. >> You may have mentioned it, but when will this project be wrapped up? >> I didn't. It's an asterisk. And the reason it's an asterisk is because they're already a year behind. And this is Tech Stops report. And while they used to give me a date here that says September 2019, I even took it because they give me this word document. And I put an asterisk there too because they had not met any schedule that they provided to date. So if I told you September, I wouldn't tell you what year, because we're already a year and a half behind on this project. So soon. >> Okay. >> But when will the paving underneath Loop 288, Loop 288 Lillian Miller itself be done? >> Councilmember Ryan. >> I'm just acknowledging him. >> That will be the very last thing they do. Because they have to get the bridges done and get the traffic back up. And so they can build the Texas U-turns. And so the paving of 288 underneath 35 will be the last of the phases of this project. Look, we're using it as traffic calming, right? You don't want people burning through there. So he leaves the potholes there so they'll drive slower through the intersection. >> So it's traffic calming all the way back to target. >> They're working on that. The problem is, is once OHL started working on that bridge, in all seriousness, once they started working on that bridge, they own the pavement underneath it. And it's their responsibility to maintain it. The state can't come in and maintain it like they were before. And OHL has been significantly non-responsive to anything the state's tried to do. And right now, these guys are paying the state $7,500 a day for the privilege of doing this project. That's what their liquidated damages are now. So we can't get them to do anything out of cycle or out of goodwill or anything. They're going to fight us hammer and tong all the way through the process. And then we're going to go to claims. And I've never in my life gone to a claims in Austin after the project was done because I didn't care. But this one I care about. I'm going to show up and make sure that the people in Austin don't just split the difference and give them back some money because these people are criminals in my heart. I believe them as criminals. And they're at Madrid, Spain, so they're probably part of the mafia, too. Strike that for the record. And this is recorded. Those opinions are mine and not the city's. I apologize. So I don't know when it's going to be completed. Okay. All right, your 35EW emerge. We will know this summer whether we get the full $242 million. We are currently designing this is an ultimate and we have an ultimate exhibit that we'll bring to the next on system task force meeting with the city to make sure we're not doing anything we shouldn't do. And if we do end up getting the full 242, then we'll press on and do a schedule and have your time frame because it'll be funded. If we don't get the 242 that we dropped back down to the hundred and $50 million option, which you calm is on contract to do that as well which will be adding a second lane on 35W to 35 doing the braids when between 380 and split and putting the frontage roads in their permanent locations and then making some improvements to the 380 intersection, we just won't go all the way up to 77. And we won't build all the main lanes in their permanent location. So we'll know by summer, which way we're going, but we are identifying the number of parcels. And we currently think they're about 44 depending upon, because even if we do the interim we're still going to buy the right away for the ultimate so we're just trying to determine what that footprint is in its ultimate configuration. That's the project that we're going to go over. So we should know by summer, whether we get the full 242, or we're going to be doing some type of the interim improvement. 35 North, this is that project that is portioned up to 77 is also included in that wishbone project to the, to the north and because we're going to be getting cleared in the June timeframe it's in time for if we get the funding for the two full dollar amount. Then we can go ahead and construct that with just the different limits in the CSJ, but that dollar amount is for the entire length of the project, and we this is not funded. There's a segment that the North Texas region has determined they're gonna let the commission deal with because the commission wants 35 six lanes, I've said this each time I'm here from the real to the red, and we're feel confident that the commission will pick that up. North of 77. On that I'm sure I've asked you about this in the past, frankly I don't remember what, what, what the response was but at what point would they determine whether sound barriers would be appropriate for this. Right now, yes the environmental clearance that makes that determination so when you get environmentally cleared you're clearing what's this called the schematic and the schematic shows where the sound walls. So what happens in a schematic is they put where they anticipate sound laws to be in the schematic. And then when you do the environmental clearance those sound walls either survive the noise analysis, or they're removed because they don't. In the early iterations which was the case on 35 eight there were some sound walls around the North Texas area that were in there one of the earlier schematics but once the feds did their noise analysis they didn't want it for whatever reason, feasible reasonable. And so the ultimate environmental clearance document showed walls. Only in those areas that survived that gauntlet. Once that is done, we have a schematic, if we're going to a June environmental clearance, which means the feds give us what's called a finding of no significant impact or Fonzie. We had that schematic that's approved shows the walls that are in there now so we can bring that to the ones that survived or made it through the, the noise analysis. Yeah, I'd love to know what has made it through the process so far you got it. And so on this one with the 380 because we've talked about it before the that intersection 35 and 380. Before it gets to the north side, how messed up that is right that's on the previous so on this one here. Okay, the interim project says we're going to make all these improvements that's what really started the ball rolling is you can't get basically the 35 year W and get through this corridor because you got all the traffic from 35 W that loops over and comes in from the right. The same time you got people trying to get off at 380 and there's this cluster right in the middle. And so what happened is they both wanted exit in here at the same point and in our plans we have what's called a braided ramp. And I think we flipped the stack on the braid, because I think the developer, we had the exit ramp going over for whatever reason originally, which doesn't make sense to me and then the on ramp at grade. So we flipped it so that the exit comes in a grade so that the developable land for razor range has better access and then we'll take on ramp up and over. So well that'll solve a lot of your problems with the inner improvements but that's, that's what this project tries to do is solve all of those problems and reality. Just stopping at 380 doesn't solve the problem because you still have 288 and 77 that are issues. So we're trying to push the envelope. Further to solve the problems to basically the northern city limits of didn't and after that, we'll let the Commission deal with 35. Okay, so, so when that change was made, it was made as a pre step to what's coming next. So it made it worse in the meantime. Correct. Okay, but it's going to be better when what right here it says that we will start this project whichever which are the inner ultimate January 2023 which is why I was fixing to tell you that we're not going to wait that long to look at 380 and 35, the intersection itself because that's problematic as well. So we're not going to be able to do anything about the weave for some time, but we do think there's some things we can do to the actual intersection of 380 and 35 to fix that better. You're gonna tell us that now. No, we don't know what it is. We got to work with the city, because y'all manage all your intersection signals so we have this county and the city and the state work together on. Yeah, that's one we definitely. I definitely hear about constituents. So I got a, I got a certain church on 380. And I'm a usher and my usher Lee lives out there and every Sunday, and I keep reminding him we're in a house of worship. The first thing he starts doing is wearing me out about 380. He's he's praying is what he's doing is praying for using the Lord's name. Yes. All right, so this is the other project we're working on this is the main lanes. This is the ultimate now this is frontage roads main lanes grade separations, flipping a stacks, etc. on the 35 project 35 W from basically where it leaves off from the Tarrant County project forward project, all the way to the just out to that railroad track everybody's leaving the railroad track I'm not sure how that's going to work where you have this wall. In between here, but we're talking about getting a environmental clearance done in March we had a public meeting. I think this is oh we had it on the frontage roads which is the next project so we are anticipating getting the schematic done in May, which will then allow us to move forward into the environmental clearance that's the that's the schematic not the environmental clearance. And we have a sister project, which is the frontage roads. But what this corridor needs is the frontage roads of capacity on the main lane still is okay. What the problem is is there's no continuous frontage roads here and so your predictability and reliability of corridor is diminished because of the lack of the frontage and your economic development is prohibited so if you look down between 114 and Eagle Parkway. That was our first phase and we just put a southbound and northbound frontage road. And we're just finishing the northbound frontage road probably in a month or so. We just already see how much economic developments going along 35 W, where there are frontage roads so the intent is to get the frontage roads cleared, which we're looking at July. That's the schematic March of next year for the environmental clearance for just the frontage roads. Right. And then what will happen is, HTTP on the previous job will take what Jacobs which used to be CHM to is doing the work, and then they'll implement it put that into their plans and then we'll start constructing sections of the frontage road, and it's a, you know, a small dollar amount. And we'll be ready to let sometime in 2023 because there's quite a bit of right away that has to be acquired we had a public meeting on May 16, and there were 54 in attendance. And most of them were just asking how long is it going to take before we get this thing constructed so there's a lot of movement on the 35 W leg. Second entrance into the city's downtown area, and we're progressing as quickly as you can on a state highway of this nature. 38 East. This is segment segment that is most dear to the city of Denton includes pedestrian improvements that the city was instrumental in getting included in the project. We're looking at a February 2021. Ready to let date. We have the two CSJs for the two different parcels there's about 24 in the green, and about 100 in the blue, and we're in the process of acquiring those parcels, and you're looking at that being done, because we're pretty far along on the right already in February of next year, which means they're saying one year for utilities, and I'm saying that's not feasible, because the blue corridor part of 380 is infested with utilities on that corridor. And so we question here. That's what I'm sorry on on this project, if you go further out, 380 and you cross that line, there's significant improvements being done is that the same project that's coming this way. You mean in Collin County. Yeah, like if you had if you had towards Frisco, the Dallas North hallway there's a lot of construction there happening is that. So, yes, that's that that's that's the utilities, some of the utilities are already moving but there's a lot of work going on pre pre construction on 380. Because, East of this line 380 is already six lanes. Now we have six lanes in this segment as well to get to 77 377, but it's doesn't it's not the correct proper cross section so we'll be adding the 10 foot shoulders back and there's a lot of things we're going to be doing so this segments a lot easier to do. This is the four lane segment that we're taking the six, and they were building five great separations at the major cross streets. Legacy till navel for 23 and 720 will be great separation so that you won't have to stop on 380 those cross streets. So, I'm not sure what you're looking at but the construction of the roadway itself starts in February 2021. It looks like they're already doing the separation looks like they're building the inner inner lanes. From what I can. Are you sure it's in Denton County. It may it may be it's maybe further up. Okay, I'm saying, I'm just wondering if the whole project is the same and they're so in Collin County, there's no, they may be making some improvements to the existing 380. Now, but there's no consensus as to what they want 380 to look like the cities don't want it to move out of their jurisdiction as a bypass, and they don't want it coming through as a freeway because it destroys their commercial corridor. And so the county's pushing a freeway cities are pushing arterials cogs pushing a reliever out and so nobody agrees. And so in that vacuum, we're just coming in and doing our job and being done. Okay, but I don't. I'm not even allowed to go into Collin County. They've got warrants for you. I've beat their butt at every turn of the worm on finding things. You can strike that for the record if you want. Luke 288 project that won't die. We're in the process of getting environmentally cleared in April 2020. We are really pushing on this project and the reason we are. Here's because all of the little white dots you see those are gas wells that we're having the serpentine through. And that's not the problem. If you look at the schedule. We've got it environmental cleared April 2020 right away, December 2024 and the reason we're putting it out that long is because those gas wells have transmission lines that are like a spider web underneath the ground. And whenever you buy the right away, you have to. You can't have those lines inside textiles facilities because they're not franchise. What I'm talking about, but only certain utilities can be within the right away. And so that means they got to move on and when they move, there's a significant cost for the right away. When you buy the right away from these well guys, they know they got to pay for their own utilities. So part of their argument with the with the right away is that they want their compensation for the utility. And typically that's the state doesn't give in on it, but they've had a couple of projects elsewhere in the state where they got crushed by the gas well guys. And so they're anticipating a lot of work haven't been done to negotiate and get through the right away if that time frame is expedited, then we can get to the utilities. And they'd say in two years year and a half, which I think they should probably have more time on that. Because of all of the gas wells we're gonna be dealing with and so right now we're talking about ready to let in 2026, and we'll be lucky to hit that time frame, and we're intending on building the northbound frontage road of controlled access facility. That it sets y'all's the city didn't developable expectations because that road won't move once it's in place, it'll be in its permanent place. So that's 288. I started that job I didn't have kids, and when it gets done, I think they'll be retired and they'll be supporting me. Hopefully that's the plan. Not on 288. So FM 1515 this is a project where pre temp beat the state down. Got him to submit to all the wild and crazy things he wants to do on this road. They finally just said we surrender, and there'll be a traffic circle. What is it. I didn't even have to say it. Sorry. So have a traffic circle at Western. Around about at Western and around about at the airport and mostly that's so that when trucks get down there and get lost, they can turn around and come back without having to do a 14 point turn in your airport parking lot. We've worked out how we're going to fix how 1515 ties into Bonnie Bray, I think, didn't agree to that. There is a fix. Yes. Okay, so we're cooking with gas on this one. And so we're looking at December 2020 for an environmental clearance so these are guesses as to how long the right away and utilities will take if these get expedited, then you're ready to let project that can move up, and we think it will be expedited. Have we fixed the on ramp off ramp line at right now you come up right next to the right next to the bridge and then you got to go down, down before you can get back on to 35. That's part of the other project that's tying in, I think we fix and line it. I didn't understand what he said so. He's talking about these two ramps being offset. Oh yeah, that's part of the wishbone. Okay, project. Yes, that, that'll be corrected in the, in the, when we're making those improvements to 35 W. And they'll be consistent with what is in the approved schematic. And we have an exhibit that we went over where we were we were looking all that when we were looking at to make the improvements to 1515 and Bonnie Bray so we can probably bring that back and let you look at it to the mobility if you if you're looking at that. And then 1173. So we've got Garver on contract, they're moving into the final schematic approval on this project it is consistent with cities thoroughfare plan to move it up to Barthold road. And then this will come off system. And then the new alignment will be here. And any improvements we make to the wishbone project if we get to get the $242 million will include this accommodation for 1173. And for 28, I got some good news here a little bit when we met with Michael Morris, and we told him that we were looking at for 28 being a limited access facility, and that text that only wanted it to be an arterial. He scoffed, and he says we're not going to make the same mistake on for 28 as we've made on 380 that he concurs. He's wanting to partner with on this project and he only wants it to be limited access facility so we will use him to convince text that what we want to do. So, we have a very strong ally and this is one of the projects that we're pitching to get additional funding from the MPO for your potential bond program in November. Question customer breaks. Limited access facility only means frontage roads main lanes so that you don't have people making you turns. We have a medium mediums. Okay, and, and on that design will be working with the city as well because I, I know that there's a lot of cyclists that use this road to come in, and you know they go to the country and then come back so so it's actually a. Cities the one is pushing on this project and it's a, and I don't know why the county didn't pick up on this, because you know we've got the outer loop coming in and coming south on the, because we are extending the DNT north all the way to the Grayson County line that starts in January February that construction so there's going to be strong push for the outer loop from the Collin County area, which they're already advancing to get over to 35. And so this first segment over to 428 well is why we think 428 lack more like a spur, because nobody's going to want to come down all the way to 380, and then trod through 380 to get back to didn't when they could just come across the loop and come down the access facility main line and I'm right into town, or to the loop if you don't want to come all the way in. So, 428 is a city suggested based upon the development y'all see going on in that area but you've got a strong partner now in the MPO and text that will come along beside you. Once Michael tells them they have to. And this may be a city question but that intersection there at 428 in the loop is still getting a signal. Correct, it's a separate project it's part of the second phase of small transportation currently under design. The intersections that we want to tie in is where we really come into the conversation and that's where we'd be talking about pedestrian access and cyclists and how we bring those elements into the frontage road arena. So, that would definitely be a partnership of both all along the project. So just to make sure I'm tracking that this this cycling aspect would be along the frontage road then. So what happens in a, in a typical scenario, and if you look at 380 headed out towards Decatur, you'll see that the feds have required two things to be included in most every facility and I've seen one get away from it, and that is a 14 foot outside lane. The assumption is that's for cyclists want to ride which cyclists have told them that's not what you want to be. And then sidewalks usually a five to six foot sidewalk so we had a minimum, those roads will have that, but the city was fairly successful in the 380 to get that widened using a grant from the Council of Governments, and so, as the conversation goes with the schematic for this roadway progresses, city of Denton and the MPL have been very strong about regional below and pedestrian web, and I'm certain that this will continue to be a priority for all those entities. That's it. That's the last one. Can you remind me who Michael Morris is? Sorry, I should know because it seems to settle all issues when you put his name up there. He's nobody. Can you extract that from the record please. Michael Morris is the Director of Transportation for the North Central Texas Council of Governments and he is the Director of the Regional Transportation Council which is the planning body that plans for both the Dallas District and the Fort Worth District, all the way out to 2045 so he handles a lot of the funding issues related to North Texas. Okay, thank you. He sits on the board that I serve on in the Dallas region mobility and he's also is with you guys right. He's a staff director of the Regional Transportation Council he staff, but not really he's the boss. Highly influential. Okay, I got you. Thank you. That's it. Okay. Sorry, can I ask you one question. So the Dallas drive the on ramp under that bridge has been closed for a really long time. Is that going to be reopened or is that that will be opened when the old job is done. So that's also contingent on, is there a reason. There's nowhere to go, because the bridge isn't there. And so once they get the bridge redone, then they'll be able to open Dallas drive back and it'll be as it was before, it'll be barrier protected. So you can't go from Dallas drive to 288, the, the on ramp to get on the 35 east southbound takes you past the barrier that precludes you from getting to 288 so you won't have that that mad dash that people were doing in the past. Get over, but didn't open temporarily did, because what happened was that was part of the AGL project for the interim ultimate. And then we got the money for the brinker 288 project. And in order to build what we're building, we had to close it again. Okay, and pre temp fought hammer and tong to find some way to keep it open and, and he lost that battle. Okay, but it will reopen. Whenever, September, October, 2019 ish. I'm going to Spain at some point and I'm gonna make a point to go to Madrid to go there offices of picking them. Because, anyway, I may not get to come back. So that's it. I think I've said more than I know. But it's again just to overcap I just want to make sure you understand your staff is working with text on close to two and a half billion dollars worth of improvements to projects that significantly impact the city didn't quality of life because it doesn't matter what you do for living doesn't matter what you don't do for a living. You're going to do it on a road somewhere. And that's a lot of money that your staff is working with others to get put on the ground, you get 5% of that, I wish. I missed it sure sure because the last time we talked about Teasley 2181. The contractor was close. It was like Jay go and who y'all got working on. Zachary was down to those guys and they said, y'all shortlisted give us a bit, and it came in. One of them was 17 years like 17 and a half million dollars more than I thought it should be, because what the Berkshire Hathaway did was say, you are responsible for the work MCM did and I said if we're going to be responsible what they did we're going to assume it's all crappy, and we're going to start over. And so that's the impacts and the state doesn't have any leverage on Berkshire as the holding company or the surety to make them expedite in any type, fashion or form. So as a project just on hold, because there's no one to do it. Absolutely. This isn't the first time this has happened and didn't can you the last time it was on 407 at 35, and I got the pleasure watching a tree that was in the median grow to about four inches in diameter before the project. So there's no control the state gets. Let me say this way, the Texas Department of Transportation has no authority on the over these contractors once the project is led in the surety bond companies, because the legislature won't give them any authority. So every time we complain, because we get the state rep to state senators complain about how long it's taking these roads to get done. We keep telling them, you don't give the state any authority to enforce these contractors to act, you all have that kind of authority, the state does not. And every time we try to get something done to the legislature, AGC comes in, they got a bigger lobbying firm, and they crush us. So who has authority over them. Well, nobody. So what happens is let's say you got a, let's say you got OHL a brinker 28835 they did it as a plus B, and they get the low bid at $32 million, and it's supposed to take 735 days right plus or minus. They go to work. And the only thing the state can do is withhold their payments until they correctively do some things as long, excuse me, but then at some point like OHL is now, they are 111 days out of contract. And those are $75 a day $7500 a day that they owe the state. And so, they're going to basically treat this as a contract as opposed to construction job now, and they're doing everything they can to argue delay that the city or the county or state costs so they can chip away at that penalty. And the only thing the state can do is terminate them like they did on Teasley, right, and tell them to go away, which is cutting off yarn at the time. So we had to do it on MCM because they literally went bankrupt, they're just gone. Or, you stayed and fight with them for a year and a half past the contract schedule because we can't do anything other than assess the liquidated damages. And there's a bill, which I think you'll hopefully it passed, that says that if those liquidated damages penalties are assessed, that they don't just go back into Tech Stops Coffers, they got to go back to the district where they were assessed because it's our delay in impact to the economy that suffered. And so, that was in our last meeting they had a bill. I hope it passed because that means that we absolutely have a legitimate argument to go down to the claims court and start arguing that they shouldn't be be granted any kind of waivers but there is no actual control once the contractor has the contract. They have that footprint for that number of days and they can do whatever they want. Plus or minus. Okay, something to think about when we contemplate our legislative agenda. So the city has absolutely no way to go back in and say like this is our hands are tied really can we can we try to get the road back at this time and then do it ourselves. It might might just be as quick. So, there are certainly options we can explore any and all involve quite a bit of expenditure of funds that have already been there as far as the way this project was put together. The city's commitment was funding to the project for water and wastewater utility relocations. It was just a component of text that's overall project. We'll be glad to explore other alternatives and see if there's some other way that we can keep the project moving forward but it is a very complicated matter. When it comes to a contract that's been breached by one party or the other, and then you get into a scenario where text that's really their hands are tied by what they when enforceable items they actually have, and they just don't have it, they've not been given it by the legislature. So the cost initially was close to $40 million. So, it's not something you just want to unilaterally take on, because it would be a daunting task, plus everything out there that's, it's in the ground. That's the issue there's stuff that's in the ground a lot of it's your your your utilities. Good. I think what these contractors are saying. They don't know what, what the quality of work actually was done so they would want to start over is what they're saying we would, even if we were to try to work some deal with the state. We would want to go out and assess everything that was done. Is it viable, would it how much of it is not viable that we'd want to maintain certainly the utilities at rim we had to say and what was good or not good as far as the installation. Are there other components of this from compaction. How well do they backfill on these trenches and we've dealt with that on some city streets we'd want to know all that before we go and so they actually hired subs to do that work and a lot of these subs that weren't getting paid. And so, I mean, it's it's it's a quagmire. Sorry to bring that up, I've just, I someone messaged me and asked me and I. Thank you. We, we, like I say your staff meets with tech stock district, and the area office every two to three weeks. And this is one of the projects that we, you know, beat them about the head and shoulders to try to get them to move on. Right. Thank you very much. How about a five minute break and then see if we can knock off the remaining items by 12. We're back from break resuming our ability committee meeting. We're going to pick up just go through the items that are left and we'll get as far as we can by 1230. So let's go all the way back up to item B, receive a report, hold the discussion and give staff direction regarding the connected citizens program and ways mobile application. Good afternoon, committee council. My name is Stephanie Yates marketing and outreach coordinator. God bless you marketing outreach coordinator with the city event in the public affairs department. Today I'm going to be providing a brief update on the ways connected citizens program as well as going over some of the key features and benefits of the partnership, and some current and future initiatives that the city is exploring to continue to evolve ways as a communication tool to improve mobility throughout the city. So I'm pretty sure you're aware, I'm about four months ago we introduced the ways connected citizens program it launched in February of 2019, and the partnership with ways, it allows it's a two way data share the free tool for everyone to use and it allows partners to go in and update city plan construction and improvement projects that will impact traffic, as well as allow users to directly through the app, input any type of road congestion road closures stall vehicles any type of any inconveniences that may happen on the roadway through the app, and it provides an overview of current road conditions throughout the city. And it's also a partnership that is not only in Dan, but South Lake Frisco Plano so as people drive throughout the DFW area they're able to continue to see updated road conditions. So once we got the word that we're going to be going forward with the partnership. We issued the really robust communication campaign through press releases DTV work together with the public affairs department to put together a really awesome quick video that was included in our social media campaign, and we're continuing different aspects of our social media campaign as well. It is included in the city of didn't news feature as well as the web page, and it was featured in a number of different local publications including the didn't record article. So some of the key features of ways that we use to really expand on our partnership is through the daily construction and closure reporting the two way road information sharing and emergency help features so I'll dive a little bit into each of these three key features just to explain a little bit more about how they are very helpful in getting mobility improvements throughout the city. So the first one daily construction and closure reporting our capital projects department staff will report plan closure data into the ways app, and that includes capital projects road utility projects, recreation and public safety projects, anything that is planned that is a full closure for at least a minimum of one day will be included on here so a lot of the projects that you see on the FCR are uploaded into the ways application for drivers to be able to view and plan their commutes accordingly. We also have reports for plan city events so UNT, TWU commencements, those highly impact traffic, we also include festivals like the arts and jazz festival that's included in there when it's that time of year concerts, and we include select surrounding franchise utility and entity closures such as tech site, Union Pacific and admins when it is tied to a city project on their behalf. What do you need? Oh, sorry guys. Alrighty. The next key feature is the two way road sharing information. So this is the really unique feature that gets a lot of people going about ways so unlike Google Maps you can go in and you can give updates on your commute of down signal lights, vehicles, vehicle accidents, anything that would slow down one commute from one side of the city to the next. It can be inputted, most things can be inputted into the ways application and staff has access to this closure and reporting information and that has been really vital and a huge part of the partnership that we have with ways. So that's the two way data sharing feature that is very popular. The next feature is the emergency help. So emergency request can be submitted through the ways application so if you find yourself in your commute and you have an emergency, you can call 911 directly through the application and it will be dispatched to the city's police department, ambulance and fire department. So some of the continued improvements that the city is exploring, one would be the road closure alerts and updates. So being that the parameters around what can be inputted into ways is a little strict. We're working to see exactly how we can take the information that is input in there to really improve infrastructure planning and management. So whenever we see some of the plan closures that they have in there, we can then route that information over to our capital projects department and our engineers and let them know some areas of contention or congestion when it comes time to plan projects. And then the emergency help features, so our police department is actually is actually exploring a new computer aided dispatch system called CAD to where they will be able to go in and put accident information into the ways app to let folks know before they go out on their commute that this area is the area you want to avoid because of an accident that is actually in that area. And then of course promotion and education, so Waze continues to add different features and I mean just really awesome ways to improve mobility. So we want to continue to push the messaging of this application and the partnership with the city out to different residents that use the app. So it'll be a continuous promotion education that we do on our end through the public affairs department. So if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them. In our citizen on engagement meeting we talked about this little bit and some discussion on not just this road is closed, but an alternate route. Right. We talked about maybe how that would be beneficial. If that could be pulled up somewhere so that it's the quickest alternate route. When a road is closed. Is that, is that something that we could do through the ways. So currently that's not a feature that we can do through ways but when we were in the committee meeting we were talking about linking, because a lot of the information that we input in there as a city is exactly what people will find on the SCR so on improving didn't, if we're able to link the detour maps that are included with the project mailings that could be one avenue that we can push that detour information out to residents, but currently it is a little restrictive in that we aren't allowed to input detour information, they will automatically generate an alternate route through the, through the system, but we just don't have that capability as of today. Okay, and on their routes that they read, they regenerate because we have several different ones that may be closed. So they will pick up all the roads that that we've inputted. Yes, yes. And then reroute around the closures throughout the city. I'm just thrilled that we got this far, you know, I know it was in the works for a long time. I think it's, you know, just so on target tool. The communication that that I looked at talked about getting through traffic. I would just offer an opinion that, you know, the, the real dialogue is, is about construction. You know, and no need for us to hide from that message. It's not like people won't notice, you know, like, that there's that I think the logo of improving Denton really speaks to that, you know, that there's a lot going on because we're improving Denton, and, you know, ways will help us all get through it together, you know, that's kind of messaging that I would encourage. I also want to ask, Stephanie, is this the first time you've presented? Yes. Any other comments? You made it. Thank you. All right. So yeah, thank you. So it looks like we'll close that item and open item D receive a report about the plan roadway updates for Parkway Street slash Oakland Street from Carroll Boulevard to withers Street. I do not have a presentation on this but I think it's more of a very generic talk. Parkway is a really small segment of street which stretches between Calhoun Mill on one end through Carroll Boulevard, Elm and Locust and then it turns around becomes Oakland Drive and then meets the campus so we're talking about the TW campus. Currently it is a very wide roadway between Carroll and all the way where it connects to withers. It is about 43 feet wide, two lanes in each direction. And when we look at the traffic volumes currently does not really warrant that kind of capacity, but particularly given this short stretch as it goes in. Staff conducted studies with warrant analysis for Elm and Locust signals and determined that it does not really meet the word. Back in the day when this particular intersection signals were installed. It had quite a bit of traffic commuting back and forth and that's the reason it was installed. Current demands, change in land use, change in traffic patterns, do not warrant a traffic signal at Elm and Locust along Parkway. So what we've done is submitted the analysis to tech start requesting that we will remove those traffic signals go back to stop signs. And then, in addition to that, we're also planning on a reduction in capacity which is a road diet, going from a four lane section to a three lane section. What that would help us do and let me see if I can pull quickly pull a picture for that particular item. What that would allow us to do is actually use the additional capacity or the width that's available there to add in bike lanes on either side. So right from Carol all the way to withers where it turns around. We plan on adding a bike lane on either side, creating a two way median lane, and then having two lanes of travels which are enough. These intersections at Elm and Locust will be converted into stop sign along Parkway. Given the volumes along Elm and Locust, and then the Parkway volumes, similar to other streets that cross Elm and Locust south of the downtown area. It will continue working Mulberry has a similar situation. I think there are stop signs on Mulberry. So that is the request at this point is, if we can move forward with, if we can move forward with a road diet along this particular segment. We have received concerns. I do want to point out we have received concerns at this particular section of Congress and Oakland Street. Due to this curve, there are two travel lanes and people traveling along these travel lanes and people that are trying to leave Congress. There is a really sight distance issue. So if you're in these lanes traveling northbound and someone from Congress wants to make a left, there's no area for them to have a refuge. So what that would do, what the proposed option will do is actually create this refuge area for anyone that's leaving Congress. Travel from one side, get into the refuge area and then merge safely onto the other side. So it's a two step process for addressing some of the existing concerns. And there's also concerns about crossing pedestrians crossing this particular section here. And what we think will help is that the new configuration will really help to use that median two wheel left turn area for pedestrians to take a break while they can look in either direction and continue crossing. So the proposal today is to provide direction for staff to move forward with this alternative. That's what the bricks I saw first. I'm glad I'm very, very for the road diet. But if you could just help me understand a little bit better, maybe go zoom into the sections. So we're removing the traffic signals and will it be a four way stop or just a two way stop. It will be a two way stop. Okay, along Parkway. Okay. And so because people go down Elm and Locust, then we're putting bike lanes in which is encouraging more biking. There won't be any specific like crossing signal to help to help them cross. There wouldn't be any crossing signal, but we can look at other options. I mean, if, if the, we have, we currently have the single infrastructure, so we can move forward but something as to help them provide a separate signal or a flashing light that would help. If they, if the bikers show up and then bike lane, we can detect them and the flashers can go on. We have existing conduits. So if needed, we can add more safety. And then I guess I, the, the light up at, is it? There McKinney will pause the traffic enough so that there'll be plenty of time to cross. That's the whole idea is there are gaps in traffic that are created by the signal up at McKinney. That would help traffic that's trying to cross Parkway. I'm sorry, trying to cross Elm. Okay. And that's going to be the same way at the on the other side, the available site distance on the other side is way down the street. So you have enough space in this area to really wait at this location and there is no obstruction at this particular corner for anyone that's traveling in this direction or the other direction. Okay. Yeah, I think this is, you know, right on the money in all particulars. I very much appreciate the idea builds from cuts member breaks and a little bit of a question around the Congress and by the only Fowler parking lot there is, would you be inclined to mark a crosswalk. Since we're not adding stop signs on Oakland, it's not recommended to Marcus crosswalk. There will be crossing available people can actually use a crossing but it won't be more. There are two different things. People do get into under the false pretends that if it's marked, I'm protected, and I can just walk in. Whereas, if there's a, there's obviously a crossing here that people can actually cross is just that it's not marked. And we don't want to give them a false sense of security. Did you say there's going to be, you're going to put a median here. Is that what you said, there will be a lane. Okay, and I see cars parked all along here is that where is a bike link going to be on just the one side on Oakland. So I think, let me see. Because I also know people park along the side for the park as well. What, how wide it is but we haven't designed it so we have a design will have better idea. Okay. Thank you. Please bring it back so we can have a dispute about it. That's how you get my dark man in here. Wides out to three lanes, or one becomes a right term. Correct. Where does that what okay widens there can we also look at keeping that two lanes he only have, if you are doing a pedestrian crossing. There's only two lanes that you have to get across as opposed to three. Yes, we can just kind of move forward where that will we widen the three lanes this south of. Yes, we can definitely look at it there's currently no parking allowed in this particular segment, this last block, but there's parking allowed just north. And that's what takes up the third lane. So we can definitely look at the lane drop. This particular lane starting. Yeah, it starts at south of the intersection as opposed to just more and that was Congress where's Parkway. Yeah, just in that segment between Parkway in Congress, if we reduce that to just two lanes going through their pedestrians having to cross only have two lanes they have to cross as opposed to three. So, lessens the distance, thereby making it quicker that they can get across. Yes. Okay, thank you. You know, I'm going to suggest is we're going to end up doing a special called meeting on on Forest Ridge, that we pick up item E, and that one as well in case we want to come and talk about bike and pedestrian issues, and with our remaining five minutes, do item G. Now, just, just think about who might show up. So, so let's, let's go ahead and quickly look at item G was receive an updated report and hold a discussion regarding the North Central Texas Council of government's policy bundle program. Okay, good afternoon chair and committee members I'm Katie welch with capital projects. So today we wanted to give you another update on the policy bundle application that we submitted to the Council of Governments. So just a very quick overview we submitted our application back in April of this year. If we meet half the policy recommended policies we get some transportation development credits, and we will find out in July, whether you know that we you know basically in the official approval, and then figuring out our next steps from the Council of Government so we're just kind of in that waiting period right now. But we did speak last time about starting to go into more detail on the policies that we weren't currently meeting, and just talking about some of the next steps we can take that for policies that are good for the city. What we're currently doing and what we can do to get us to to meet the policy goals. So today we decided to go ahead and talk about employer trip reduction. And so basically the Council of Governments one of the policies in their application was they recommended that entities, specifically city should work with their major employers and commuters to employ to promote employer trip reduction programs and then also, also promote using alternative commuting strategies, just to help reduce traffic and air pollution in the community and in North Texas. So some of the things that they recommend that the city, the city does is to promote, not only within the internal organization at the city of Denton for our employees but also external private industry that we have here at the city to promote telecommuting and flexible work schedule schedules, potentially subsidizing transit passes for employees so that they can, you know, take buses or ride DCTA to work, encourage carpooling biking and walking, as well as utilizing a website called try park it.com. So those are just kind of an overview of some of the things they recommend that the city of Denton promotes throughout the community. And so I wanted to go in a little more specifically to try parking it.com. So what this is, is it's a free website, created and provided by Council of Governments that helps people link up and match up with ride sharing services so you can kind of find a partner online to carpool with vanpool with maybe someone wants to walk to work and you want to go with them so it links you up with other people who are trying to basically find alternate commutes for their for their working day. So it allows you to do that, but it also allows you to log your commutes, your alternate commutes on a daily basis so you can see through this website. Employees can see how much gas they've saved how much money what reduction in air emissions that they've that they've done by commuting or by alternate commuting methods. So it's really cool. And then on top of that it allows the individual employee using this to gain real points which can be cashed in for rewards through they say Council government says you can get rewards through like maybe discounts with businesses or they provide some different reward incentives as well so it's got a lot of cool features to it. Let me see if I had. And so, the Council of Governments it's a free thing that both the city of Denton could implement through throughout the organization but also promote to other businesses throughout the community. They typically recommend 100 plus employee organizations utilize this. And so, they'll come and they'll give you all the promotional material they'll come even on site if you ask them and help you get it, get it started. So, so there's a lot of cool features with that. So what we wanted to recommend today, kind of get y'all's feedback on see if you wanted to look at some next steps for this is to provide maybe some informational material both to city staff within our organization, as well as some information packets we could pass out to private within the city. Just first of all about alternative routes that exists in the city of Denton so you know some of our DC ta routes bike pedestrian trails, and then also to promote this try parking it calm and give them the resources they need to reach out to call get that set up. So that was our first recommendation. And then our second recommendation is to go ahead and see what next steps are for internal use within the city of Denton employees to try this try parking it calm. So I did talk with the point of contact at Council of Governments and they're in the process right now of getting a revamping the site, but it should be live ready for reuse. August 1, so they said this would be a good time to kind of get on that new platform that they're going to be releasing. So, that's recommendations for for that particular policy, and y'all can stop me at any point if I have questions. No, I'm in favor of this just with the recent list of 42 employees over 60% of them commute, and do not live here and didn't so this would be really important for us to, to get to city staff and just so that we can do do better. I mean I think it's going to be really important. If we can create other ways besides individual cars coming in. So, I also concur, especially the idea of sequencing it by having this city staff kind of kick the tires on it, so to speak. First, then I wonder if, in terms of bringing it out to the business community. If I might be wrong here but would it fit, do you think within us, like a common program with that one and maybe you can remind me what it was called is a green sense you have that thing that was presented to us and committee on the environment. We were going out to businesses where they sort of get points for doing business program I wonder if you know, it might become part of that communication, just otherwise you get so many different separate. Yeah, efforts you know against the same target gets difficult. Yeah, definitely can definitely look into that I think our next step for getting this information to the businesses is getting like a packet together cog provides some resources that we can use plus create some of our own that are branded with your city of Denton trails and here's the resources you have within the city so we can definitely get looped in with the green business program. See if there's some synergy. Well, yeah, this is all very, you know, innovative and helpful and really appreciate the, appreciate the work. Pick up the remaining items that are next meeting meeting item and staff reports. Okay, we'll just clean up a metrics. There are a couple things that I noticed but we'll bring it back to the committee. Next time we'll meet. Great. Okay, so we're adjourning at 1232.