1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,140 So we'll go ahead and begin. 2 00:00:03,140 --> 00:00:05,480 Yes. Okay. 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:06,740 Good evening. 4 00:00:06,740 --> 00:00:12,520 It is 5.30 p.m. on Monday, December 16, 2024. 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,080 This is a meeting of the Board of Ethics. 6 00:00:16,080 --> 00:00:19,960 And we are -- I understand that we do not have any 7 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,920 presentations from members of the public. 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,600 So we'll move on to items for consideration. 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,600 And so that would be BOE 24-04A, 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,200 Consider Approval of Minutes from November 4th 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,140 and December 2nd. 12 00:00:36,140 --> 00:00:39,040 So we'll start with November 4th. 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,380 Are there any questions about the minutes 14 00:00:43,380 --> 00:00:45,480 from November 4th? 15 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:46,380 >> Move approval. 16 00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:49,180 >> Okay. So Zeltner has moved approval. 17 00:00:49,180 --> 00:00:50,180 Do I hear a second? 18 00:00:50,180 --> 00:00:50,960 >> I second. 19 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,980 >> Everhart has seconded. 20 00:00:53,980 --> 00:00:56,900 So all in favor? 21 00:00:56,900 --> 00:00:57,400 >> Aye. 22 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:58,220 >> Aye. 23 00:00:58,220 --> 00:00:59,760 >> Passes unanimously. 24 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,360 Okay. Exhibit 2, Regular Meeting Minutes 25 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,000 from December 2nd. 26 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:14,240 Sorry. The next thing would be the evidentiary hearing minutes. 27 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,680 So anybody have any questions about it? 28 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:22,820 Okay. So -- 29 00:01:22,820 --> 00:01:24,260 >> I'll move that we approve. 30 00:01:24,260 --> 00:01:26,820 >> I will move to approval. 31 00:01:26,820 --> 00:01:28,660 Everhart seconded. 32 00:01:28,660 --> 00:01:30,020 All in favor? 33 00:01:30,020 --> 00:01:31,720 >> Aye. 34 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,060 >> So Exhibit 3, Regular Meeting Cancellation Minutes 35 00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:39,860 from when we had the meeting but we got blotted out. 36 00:01:39,860 --> 00:01:43,700 So any question about the statement 37 00:01:43,700 --> 00:01:47,080 that we couldn't have the meeting? 38 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,740 Okay. Motion to approve. 39 00:01:50,740 --> 00:01:53,340 I heard Zeltner. 40 00:01:53,340 --> 00:01:54,120 >> I'll second. 41 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:59,620 >> Second. So Zeltner moved and Reiki seconded. 42 00:01:59,620 --> 00:02:01,160 All in favor? 43 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:02,360 >> Aye. 44 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:03,720 >> Passes unanimously. 45 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:09,600 Okay. I will say I apologize. 46 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,100 I am soft spoken. 47 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:15,760 And so if any of you cannot hear me, give me a little signal 48 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,440 and I will do a better job of speaking up. 49 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:26,340 So Item B, BOE 24-049 Received Training 50 00:02:26,340 --> 00:02:30,780 and Madison Rochart is ready to give us our training. 51 00:02:30,780 --> 00:02:31,580 >> All right. 52 00:02:31,580 --> 00:02:33,460 This is the Ethics Ordinance Training 53 00:02:33,460 --> 00:02:38,360 which is required annually for city officials including you 54 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,100 as the Board of Ethics. 55 00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:42,760 So I'm just going to go ahead and start the training. 56 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,100 It shouldn't take super long but we'll have questions at the end. 57 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:49,700 So today we will be covering one, 58 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:52,840 the ethical expectations laid out in the city's ethics ordinance. 59 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,580 Two, the ordinance's mandates and prohibitions 60 00:02:55,580 --> 00:02:57,180 or what it requires. 61 00:02:57,180 --> 00:03:01,420 Three, how city officials including yourselves can request 62 00:03:01,420 --> 00:03:02,980 clarification on its application. 63 00:03:02,980 --> 00:03:05,520 And four, a quick overview of what happens 64 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,560 if an ethics complaint is submitted against you 65 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,280 as a city official. 66 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,320 I'll dive right in. 67 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,520 To begin, City of Denton's ethics ordinance was adopted 68 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,100 in 2018 and was most recently amended in 2023. 69 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:22,240 This ethics code is intended to foster an environment of integrity 70 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,080 for those that serve the City of Denton and its residents 71 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,940 by ensuring that decision makers provide reasonable stewardship 72 00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:31,420 of city resources and assets 73 00:03:31,420 --> 00:03:34,220 and providing behavioral guidelines and requirements. 74 00:03:34,220 --> 00:03:36,080 The key goal of the ethics ordinance is 75 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:37,380 to further the public's trust 76 00:03:37,380 --> 00:03:39,520 in those who govern their community. 77 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,060 More specifically, the ethics ordinance outlines six 78 00:03:42,060 --> 00:03:44,100 aspirational expectations. 79 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:46,320 These expectations cannot be used as the basis 80 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,800 of an ethics complaint but they are intended to guide City 81 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,300 officials in carrying out their duties. 82 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:53,640 These include conducting yourself in a manner 83 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,040 that fosters public trust, performing your public duties 84 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,840 with personal and organizational integrity, avoiding behavior 85 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,540 that might call your motives into question 86 00:04:02,540 --> 00:04:05,320 and erode public confidence, placing the interests 87 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,020 and concerns of Denton's residents above your own, 88 00:04:08,020 --> 00:04:11,220 valuing honesty, trustworthiness, diligence, 89 00:04:11,220 --> 00:04:15,660 objectivity, fairness, due process, efficiency and prudence, 90 00:04:15,660 --> 00:04:17,560 and balancing transparency with the duty 91 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,300 to protect personal privacy 92 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:21,160 and preserve any confidential information 93 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,400 that you have been trusted with. 94 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,500 While the rest of this training will focus on specific behaviors 95 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:29,340 that City officials must comply with, 96 00:04:29,340 --> 00:04:31,980 this is the most important section of the ethics ordinance. 97 00:04:31,980 --> 00:04:34,440 You ever find yourself questioning if a specific action 98 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,340 or inaction might be ethical? 99 00:04:36,340 --> 00:04:39,420 First, ask yourself if it would align with these expectations. 100 00:04:39,420 --> 00:04:41,880 It is important to realize that these expectations are not only 101 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,620 focused on the way things actually are 102 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:45,620 but also how they appear. 103 00:04:45,620 --> 00:04:48,160 A City official has a position of privilege within their community 104 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:49,860 that they must respect. 105 00:04:49,860 --> 00:04:52,320 Serving your community as a City official is an honor 106 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,760 that requires integrity and dedication. 107 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,140 In general, you can think about an ethics code 108 00:04:57,140 --> 00:04:59,700 or this ordinance as a stoplight. 109 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:02,800 In some instances, the code clearly prohibits specific behaviors 110 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:03,900 or creates a red light. 111 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:05,000 However, in other areas, 112 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,440 the code creates broader prohibitions or yellow lights. 113 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,220 Yellow lights communicate that a City official should thoughtfully 114 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:15,020 and cautiously consider if the action or inaction is ethical based 115 00:05:15,020 --> 00:05:18,180 on the City's expectations as they proceed. 116 00:05:18,180 --> 00:05:20,160 Throughout this presentation, I'll be calling out which parts 117 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,020 of the code are red lights versus yellow lights 118 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:23,720 to help provide guidance. 119 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,120 Now that we've covered the basics 120 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,400 of the City's ethical expectations and general guidance, 121 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,440 I'll get into some more specifics. 122 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,260 So the ethics ordinance includes three mandates and nine 123 00:05:33,260 --> 00:05:35,700 prohibitions that cover different actions or behaviors 124 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:37,700 that City officials may take. 125 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:40,580 We'll briefly cover them over the next couple of slides. 126 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:44,880 However, more details are available in the ethics ordinance. 127 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,420 So beginning with mandates, the ethics ordinance requires 128 00:05:48,420 --> 00:05:51,460 that City officials disclose certain business relationships 129 00:05:51,460 --> 00:05:53,960 if they are relevant to a pending matter. 130 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:55,660 Specifically, if a business entity 131 00:05:55,660 --> 00:06:00,160 with a pending matter is owned by a City official's partner, 132 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,360 the City official must disclose this relationship 133 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,300 to the City secretary and City auditor 134 00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:06,500 at least one business day before the meeting 135 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:09,640 where the pending matter will be deliberated. 136 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,740 All disclosures will then be provided 137 00:06:12,740 --> 00:06:15,040 to the relevant body before the deliberations. 138 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,980 This disclosure requirement is a yellow light 139 00:06:16,980 --> 00:06:19,980 in the ethics code, as even though City officials are allowed 140 00:06:19,980 --> 00:06:22,260 to deliberate on these matters by the ethics ordinance, 141 00:06:22,260 --> 00:06:24,320 it calls out that there may be a risk that this type 142 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,620 of business interest may receive unfair treatment 143 00:06:26,620 --> 00:06:29,400 from the related City official. 144 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,960 In addition, it requires that City officials comply 145 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,000 with any financial disclosures required by Texas state law 146 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,060 and that City officials report any person 147 00:06:37,060 --> 00:06:40,340 that they know has violated the City's ethics ordinance. 148 00:06:40,340 --> 00:06:42,740 These mandates are red lights and not reporting 149 00:06:42,740 --> 00:06:44,900 a known violation is itself considered 150 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:47,440 to be a violation of the ordinance. 151 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,480 So now, any questions on mandates or prohibitions? 152 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:56,680 On to, I'm sorry, on to prohibitions, 153 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,820 which are potential City official behaviors 154 00:06:58,820 --> 00:07:00,960 that are specifically considered violations of the ethics 155 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:01,780 ordinance. 156 00:07:01,780 --> 00:07:05,200 So beginning with conflicts of interest, 157 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,200 ethical best practices suggest that a City official recuse 158 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,060 from deliberating on a pending matter 159 00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:11,940 if they or their relative have a personal 160 00:07:11,940 --> 00:07:14,700 or economic interest in the business entity 161 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:17,800 or property that is not shared with the general public. 162 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,740 This general guidance is a yellow light 163 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:21,640 that is intended to draw attention to the risks 164 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:22,720 of conflicts of interest. 165 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,780 However, I should note that while this is good guidance 166 00:07:24,780 --> 00:07:27,240 for City officials, this general prohibition 167 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,720 is not actually included in the City's ethics ordinance. 168 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,320 DINZEF ordinance does include some red lights 169 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:34,920 and specifically defines the following 170 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,520 as conflicts of interest. 171 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,820 Owning 5% or more of a business entity's 172 00:07:38,820 --> 00:07:40,660 voting shares or stock. 173 00:07:40,660 --> 00:07:43,360 Owning $600 or more of a business entity's 174 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,340 fair market value. 175 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:47,900 Owning $600 or more of the fair market value 176 00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:49,240 of real property. 177 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,140 Receiving $600 or more in income from a business entity. 178 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:54,600 Serving on the board of directors 179 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,620 or as an officer of a business entity or nonprofit. 180 00:07:57,620 --> 00:08:00,120 Or having solicited, received, or accepted 181 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,340 an offer of employment from a business entity 182 00:08:02,340 --> 00:08:04,260 or person in the last 12 months. 183 00:08:04,260 --> 00:08:07,880 You have a conflict of interest as defined on the slide 184 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:09,860 with a pending matter on an agenda. 185 00:08:09,860 --> 00:08:11,920 You are required to recuse yourself from the discussion 186 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,460 and submit an affidavit of abstention to the city auditor. 187 00:08:15,460 --> 00:08:16,660 Which is me. 188 00:08:16,660 --> 00:08:18,660 A pending matter includes an application 189 00:08:18,660 --> 00:08:20,800 seeking approval or authorization, 190 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,640 a proposal to enter into a contract, 191 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,500 or a case involving the city that is or may be 192 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:28,040 before a civil, criminal, or administrative tribunal. 193 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,180 Further, it is a violation of the ordinance 194 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:33,540 for current City officials to represent a person, 195 00:08:33,540 --> 00:08:35,980 group, or entity before a City Board or commission 196 00:08:35,980 --> 00:08:36,980 for compensation. 197 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,060 This prohibition also applies to former City officials 198 00:08:40,060 --> 00:08:43,260 for one year after termination of their official duties. 199 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:45,660 Similarly, former City officials 200 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:48,420 are prohibited from performing compensated work 201 00:08:48,420 --> 00:08:50,900 on a City contract or arrangement 202 00:08:50,900 --> 00:08:53,460 if they substantially participated in the negotiation, 203 00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:56,200 award, or administration of the contract. 204 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,880 Unless that participation was limited to deliberation. 205 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,380 Any questions on conflict of interest 206 00:09:01,380 --> 00:09:02,880 or anything else on this slide? 207 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:09,720 Next, the ethics ordinance prohibits a City official 208 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,820 or their relative from accepting any gift 209 00:09:11,820 --> 00:09:13,920 that might reasonably influence a City official 210 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,520 in discharging their official duties. 211 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,020 This is a general prohibition that acts 212 00:09:18,020 --> 00:09:19,920 as a yellow light for City officials. 213 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,660 The ordinance does also include gift-related red lights. 214 00:09:23,660 --> 00:09:26,560 Specifically, a City official cannot accept a single gift 215 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:29,500 valued more than $50 or multiple gifts 216 00:09:29,500 --> 00:09:32,080 with a total value of more than $200. 217 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,000 In general, a gift is considered to be anything 218 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,480 of monetary value, such as cash, property, services, 219 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,020 meals, entertainment, or travel-related expenses. 220 00:09:42,020 --> 00:09:44,520 If a gift is accepted, the City official may remedy 221 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,580 that potential violation by promptly donating it 222 00:09:47,580 --> 00:09:49,720 or reversing the gift giver for the actual 223 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,260 or fair market value of the gift. 224 00:09:52,260 --> 00:09:54,260 If a gift is accepted, the City official 225 00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:56,500 must disclose the acceptance and the remedy 226 00:09:56,500 --> 00:09:59,660 by filing a disclosure with the City auditor. 227 00:09:59,660 --> 00:10:01,560 The ordinance does allow certain exceptions 228 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:03,140 to the gift's prohibition, meaning 229 00:10:03,140 --> 00:10:04,740 that these are considered green lights, 230 00:10:04,740 --> 00:10:07,440 which includes lawful campaign contributions, 231 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,680 expenses related to a City official's travel 232 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:11,440 to a conference or other training event 233 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,440 that's connected to the City, 234 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,880 expenses related to appearances at nonprofit 235 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,160 or community events related to City business, 236 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,360 complimentary attendance at fundraising events 237 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,660 or hospitality functions, complimentary 238 00:10:23,660 --> 00:10:25,800 or promotional copies of trade publications 239 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,600 or clothing items, or gifts that are given 240 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,760 due to personal, familial, or professional relationships, 241 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,900 regardless of the City official's City-related duties. 242 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:37,540 Any items that fall under one of these exceptions 243 00:10:37,540 --> 00:10:39,140 do not need to be disclosed. 244 00:10:39,140 --> 00:10:41,080 However, a City official may choose to disclose it 245 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:42,680 at their own discretion. 246 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:44,080 Questions about gifts? 247 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:51,720 Next is a violation of the ordinance for a City official 248 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,660 to misuse the influence or information gained 249 00:10:54,660 --> 00:10:57,220 due to their official City position. 250 00:10:57,220 --> 00:10:59,600 Specifically, a City official may not use their influence 251 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,000 to secure special privileges or treatment 252 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,540 for a person, group, or business organization 253 00:11:04,540 --> 00:11:06,500 beyond what is normally available 254 00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:08,960 or to imply that they can do such things. 255 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:10,500 While this is a specific prohibition, 256 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:13,380 it is a yellow light as it's not meant to prohibit 257 00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:15,720 a City official from providing individuals, groups, 258 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,880 or businesses with information on how City processes work 259 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:20,580 so that they may more easily access 260 00:11:20,580 --> 00:11:22,780 normally available services. 261 00:11:22,780 --> 00:11:25,020 For that reason, City officials should proceed cautiously 262 00:11:25,020 --> 00:11:26,860 and thoughtfully when trying to help the public 263 00:11:26,860 --> 00:11:28,460 with specific concerns. 264 00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:30,820 Specifically, City officials should be cautious 265 00:11:30,820 --> 00:11:33,060 when stating what they do, what they can do 266 00:11:33,060 --> 00:11:35,860 to ensure that a concern is addressed. 267 00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:38,260 Further, a City official may not state or imply 268 00:11:38,260 --> 00:11:40,800 that they are acting as a representative of the City 269 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,480 unless they have been authorized to do so 270 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,580 by the City Council, and it is a violation of the ordinance 271 00:11:45,580 --> 00:11:48,380 for a City official, either current or former, 272 00:11:48,380 --> 00:11:50,380 to use confidential information gained 273 00:11:50,380 --> 00:11:53,180 through their official capacity to advance the personal 274 00:11:53,180 --> 00:11:56,820 or private financial interests of themselves or anyone else. 275 00:11:56,820 --> 00:11:59,060 These are red lights as there are no instances 276 00:11:59,060 --> 00:12:00,320 where misrepresenting yourself 277 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,420 as an authorized City representative 278 00:12:02,420 --> 00:12:05,260 or using confidential information for personal 279 00:12:05,260 --> 00:12:06,900 or private interests would be ethical 280 00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:08,860 per the City's ethics ordinance. 281 00:12:08,860 --> 00:12:10,240 Questions about this slide? 282 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:17,500 Last of the prohibitions, it is a violation of the ordinance 283 00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:20,440 for a City official to abuse the City's resources 284 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:21,980 or the power or privileges granted 285 00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:24,080 by their official position. 286 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,940 Specifically, a City official should not use, request, 287 00:12:26,940 --> 00:12:29,980 or allow the use of City resources such as facilities, 288 00:12:29,980 --> 00:12:33,180 personnel, equipment, software, or staff time 289 00:12:33,180 --> 00:12:35,960 for private purposes, including political, 290 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,700 except to the extent that those are available 291 00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:39,100 to other residents. 292 00:12:39,100 --> 00:12:40,860 While this is a specific prohibition, 293 00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:42,660 it is also a yellow light 294 00:12:42,660 --> 00:12:44,700 as it does not have clearly defined thresholds 295 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:47,100 and there are instances where a City official 296 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:49,380 can ethically use City resources, 297 00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:50,900 such as renting a City facility 298 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:52,500 at the publicly available price. 299 00:12:53,580 --> 00:12:55,440 On the other hand, it is a violation of the ordinance 300 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,620 for a City official to harass or discriminate 301 00:12:57,620 --> 00:12:59,680 against a person based on their ethnicity, 302 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:03,620 race, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, 303 00:13:03,620 --> 00:13:06,060 marital or parental status, or religion. 304 00:13:06,060 --> 00:13:07,660 It is also a violation to interfere 305 00:13:07,660 --> 00:13:09,360 with any City-related criminal 306 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,860 or administrative investigation, 307 00:13:11,860 --> 00:13:13,860 such as persuading or coercing someone else 308 00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:15,800 to uphold their cooperation. 309 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,600 These are red lights as there's no instances 310 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,360 where harassment, discrimination, 311 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:20,960 or interfering with an investigation 312 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,500 would be considered ethical behavior 313 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,840 under the City's ethics ordinance. 314 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,100 Any questions about this? 315 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:29,180 All right. 316 00:13:29,180 --> 00:13:31,640 - Would that include an ethics complaint? 317 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,420 - That last bullet? 318 00:13:36,420 --> 00:13:40,380 I believe it could. 319 00:13:40,380 --> 00:13:42,880 I also think there's also the ex parte communication, 320 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,560 so I think it depends a little bit 321 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:46,060 on what exactly was happening. 322 00:13:46,060 --> 00:13:47,920 - Okay. - Move back, it helps. 323 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,460 - Yes, thank you. 324 00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:53,260 All right, now you have an understanding 325 00:13:53,260 --> 00:13:55,840 of the expectations, mandates, and prohibitions 326 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,440 outlined in the ordinance. 327 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:58,940 If you ever come upon a situation 328 00:13:58,940 --> 00:14:00,580 where you need additional guidance, 329 00:14:00,580 --> 00:14:01,640 you have a few options. 330 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,580 So first, if you need direction helping to find 331 00:14:04,580 --> 00:14:07,320 a section of the ordinance related to a particular situation 332 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,220 or an answer about how to submit disclosures or complaints, 333 00:14:10,220 --> 00:14:12,580 you can reach out to me in the City Auditor. 334 00:14:12,580 --> 00:14:15,160 Second, if you have an attorney, your personal attorney, 335 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,860 they may be able to provide you with an interpretation 336 00:14:17,860 --> 00:14:19,220 of the ethics ordinance to help you decide 337 00:14:19,220 --> 00:14:23,000 whether to recuse yourself or not in a given situation. 338 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,000 And finally, you can also request that the Board of Ethics 339 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,400 after all issue an advisory opinion, 340 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,100 which is intended to answer questions about compliance 341 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:34,200 with the ethics ordinance in a particular situation. 342 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,020 The biggest advantage of an advisory opinion 343 00:14:36,020 --> 00:14:37,580 is that a city official may use it 344 00:14:37,580 --> 00:14:41,280 as an affirmative defense to a submitted ethics complaint 345 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,020 if they relied upon it in good faith. 346 00:14:44,020 --> 00:14:45,260 To receive an advisory opinion, 347 00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:47,260 a city official must submit the request 348 00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:49,460 in writing to the City Auditor, 349 00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:52,560 including relevant details of the situation in question. 350 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,500 The City Auditor will then communicate the request 351 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:56,860 to the Board of Ethics Chair, who assigns it to a panel 352 00:14:56,860 --> 00:14:59,660 of three Board of Ethics members for review. 353 00:14:59,660 --> 00:15:02,780 The panel then has 30 days to issue the advisory opinion 354 00:15:02,780 --> 00:15:04,780 once the request is received. 355 00:15:04,780 --> 00:15:06,880 Any questions about this process? 356 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:19,060 Finally, the Board of Ethics' primary function 357 00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:21,220 is to process ethics complaints. 358 00:15:21,220 --> 00:15:23,360 There are four phases of the ethics complaint, 359 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,340 oh, this is disputed perhaps, maybe not. 360 00:15:27,340 --> 00:15:28,660 Anyway, sorry. 361 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:30,580 There are four phases of the ethics complaint process 362 00:15:30,580 --> 00:15:32,840 that I will now briefly run through. 363 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,140 Additional information about the ethics complaint process 364 00:15:35,140 --> 00:15:37,580 is available on the city's Board of Ethics webpage 365 00:15:37,580 --> 00:15:39,480 or can be requested from the meeting. 366 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,740 First, initiation. 367 00:15:42,740 --> 00:15:45,600 During this period, an individual submits 368 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,700 an ethics complaint using the prescribed form 369 00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:49,020 to the City Auditor. 370 00:15:49,020 --> 00:15:51,660 This complaint form should be accompanied by any evidence 371 00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:53,980 such as images, videos, or documentation 372 00:15:53,980 --> 00:15:56,700 that the complainant has passed to support their allegations 373 00:15:56,700 --> 00:15:59,380 and must be sworn to before a notary. 374 00:15:59,380 --> 00:16:00,620 The City Auditor then determines 375 00:16:00,620 --> 00:16:03,500 that the ethics complaint is administratively complete, 376 00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,820 but does not make any judgment on the complaint's merits. 377 00:16:06,820 --> 00:16:09,380 If a complaint is accepted, a copy is forwarded 378 00:16:09,380 --> 00:16:10,980 to the complainant, the respondent, 379 00:16:10,980 --> 00:16:12,140 and the Board of Ethics Chair, 380 00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:14,580 who assigns it to a preliminary assessment panel. 381 00:16:15,780 --> 00:16:17,420 During the preliminary assessment phase, 382 00:16:17,420 --> 00:16:19,660 a panel of three Board of Ethics members 383 00:16:19,660 --> 00:16:21,460 reviews the submitted ethics complaint 384 00:16:21,460 --> 00:16:24,460 and determines if it is actionable or baseless. 385 00:16:24,460 --> 00:16:26,120 If the complaint is actionable, 386 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,780 if on its base the behaviors alleged in the complaint 387 00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:31,020 would constitute a violation of the ordinance. 388 00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:35,980 The panel may also recommend that a hearing be held 389 00:16:35,980 --> 00:16:38,440 to determine if the complaint is frivolous 390 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,940 instead of determining if it is actionable or baseless. 391 00:16:41,940 --> 00:16:44,700 The outcome of the preliminary assessment 392 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:46,300 is communicated to the complainant 393 00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:48,220 and responded by the City Auditor. 394 00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:50,220 If the complaint is determined to be baseless, 395 00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:52,900 the process stops, though the complainant 396 00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:55,460 may submit a written appeal within 10 business days, 397 00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:57,300 which will initiate the hearing phase. 398 00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:01,620 During the hearing phase, the Board of Ethics 399 00:17:01,620 --> 00:17:03,460 schedules an evidentiary hearing 400 00:17:03,460 --> 00:17:06,140 and may request additional documentary evidence 401 00:17:06,140 --> 00:17:08,920 or issue subpoenas to require individuals to testify. 402 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,380 The complainant must attend and testify at this hearing 403 00:17:12,380 --> 00:17:14,460 and may also present any additional evidence 404 00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:15,840 that they have gathered. 405 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,980 In addition, the respondent may provide testimony 406 00:17:17,980 --> 00:17:20,140 and evidence for the board's consideration. 407 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:22,300 Both the complainant and respondent have a right 408 00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:24,820 to be represented by legal counsel 409 00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:26,940 at the evidentiary hearing. 410 00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:28,460 Based on this hearing, the Board of Ethics 411 00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:31,460 will determine if a violation of the ordinance has occurred 412 00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:33,180 and if so, it may issue a sanction. 413 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:37,260 Once the board has decided on the ethics complaint, 414 00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:39,780 the complainant and respondent both have five business days 415 00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:42,420 to submit any new evidence and request a reconsideration 416 00:17:42,420 --> 00:17:44,500 in writing with the city auditor. 417 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:45,980 The Board of Ethics chair will review 418 00:17:45,980 --> 00:17:49,140 the reconsideration request and will unilaterally 419 00:17:49,140 --> 00:17:51,020 determine if the new hearing is warranted 420 00:17:51,020 --> 00:17:52,300 based on the new evidence. 421 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:56,980 If during the evidentiary hearing, the Board of Ethics 422 00:17:56,980 --> 00:17:59,520 finds that a violation of the ethics ordinance has occurred, 423 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,540 they may issue one or four sanctions 424 00:18:01,540 --> 00:18:04,140 based on the city official's perceived intent 425 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:06,420 and the seriousness of the violation. 426 00:18:06,420 --> 00:18:08,620 This decision process is generally illustrated 427 00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:11,060 in the decision measures on the slide. 428 00:18:11,060 --> 00:18:13,140 And if the board decides to impose a sanction, 429 00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:15,260 the city official will be notified within 10 days 430 00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:16,260 by the city auditor. 431 00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:19,460 All right, congratulations. 432 00:18:19,460 --> 00:18:21,540 You've completed the ethics ordinance training. 433 00:18:21,540 --> 00:18:23,300 Any questions about that, the last part, 434 00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:26,300 but a lot of y'all have gone through the hearing process. 435 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:30,340 - Thank you, Madison. 436 00:18:30,340 --> 00:18:32,020 - And then I have a form for everybody 437 00:18:32,020 --> 00:18:34,140 who has intended to sign. 438 00:18:34,140 --> 00:18:40,020 As acknowledgement, and then we did get a request 439 00:18:40,020 --> 00:18:45,020 from Scott to assist, hold, to suspend? 440 00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:47,060 - Recess for 10 minutes. 441 00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:47,900 - Recess, yes. 442 00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:51,340 - Well, can I make a request? 443 00:18:51,340 --> 00:18:54,780 We have a new member here, and I wanted to introduce him 444 00:18:54,780 --> 00:18:57,260 and let him introduce himself to us. 445 00:18:57,260 --> 00:19:01,020 So could we just take that time to get to know each other? 446 00:19:01,020 --> 00:19:03,820 - Sure, I think that's recess maybe, 447 00:19:03,820 --> 00:19:05,420 but I don't know, I guess we could do a-- 448 00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:06,660 - Can we call it recess? 449 00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:10,180 - Just one question for Madison. 450 00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:14,340 Madison, part of our training used to be Wechsler's 451 00:19:14,340 --> 00:19:15,180 in a nutshell. 452 00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:18,740 Has that been pushed aside or is that the entire package? 453 00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:22,860 I mean, it's still excellent reading. 454 00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:24,580 - Yeah, I think it's recommended. 455 00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:25,940 I don't have any way to ensure 456 00:19:25,940 --> 00:19:27,980 that people have completed that reading. 457 00:19:27,980 --> 00:19:32,060 - Is it still, it was listed on-- 458 00:19:32,060 --> 00:19:33,980 - I believe it's still on the website. 459 00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:35,860 - As recommended, but not required. 460 00:19:35,860 --> 00:19:37,260 - Yes, I believe so. 461 00:19:37,260 --> 00:19:38,780 - Okay. 462 00:19:38,780 --> 00:19:40,900 Well, for the new members, I would also-- 463 00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:42,220 - I highly recommend it. 464 00:19:42,220 --> 00:19:43,700 - I would pass that along. 465 00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:45,940 - And if you wanna dive into this down some pages. 466 00:19:45,940 --> 00:19:48,340 - Yeah, it's so-- - I recommend that too. 467 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:49,900 - I'll send you the link if you're interested, 468 00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:54,700 but it's 24 pages that takes this well into the next level. 469 00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:57,780 I mean, that's, what you've done is excellent there. 470 00:19:57,780 --> 00:20:00,100 - And this is our actual ordinance, and so, yeah. 471 00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:03,700 - And there's, well, and since you bring that up, 472 00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:07,020 85% of that is great, 15% is toxic. 473 00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:10,060 And these are paired, so that's, anyway. 474 00:20:10,060 --> 00:20:13,340 - You mean the content? 475 00:20:13,340 --> 00:20:17,020 - Well, no, our current code. 476 00:20:17,020 --> 00:20:18,020 - Oh, yeah. 477 00:20:18,020 --> 00:20:20,580 - No, no, I just-- - No, I mean-- 478 00:20:20,580 --> 00:20:22,300 - I can't say enough about Weschler. 479 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:27,300 He is a, he's probably the most recognized city ethics, 480 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:33,420 and he's a Harvard and Columbia trained lawyer, so. 481 00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:40,060 Anyway, so, our new, go with the introductions, 482 00:20:40,060 --> 00:20:44,380 our new member is Kenneth Ferguson, so. 483 00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:48,540 Can you say, tell us a little bit about yourself? 484 00:20:48,540 --> 00:20:49,580 - Yes, ma'am. 485 00:20:49,580 --> 00:20:52,940 So, Kenneth Ferguson, I own the Ferguson law firm 486 00:20:52,940 --> 00:20:57,900 here in Denton, do civil litigation all over the country, 487 00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:02,780 but I am from originally Kerrville, Texas, 488 00:21:02,780 --> 00:21:05,300 if anyone knows where that's at. 489 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:07,020 And my Germany-- - Hill Country. 490 00:21:07,020 --> 00:21:09,740 - It is beautiful little place, it is the Hill Country, 491 00:21:09,740 --> 00:21:10,740 so it's very rocky. 492 00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:16,780 I started up here about two and a half years ago now, 493 00:21:16,780 --> 00:21:20,940 maybe three, and I just really enjoyed being up here 494 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:23,900 in Denton, I like the community and I like the people around. 495 00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:27,140 I've got a wife and one kid, he's just turned three 496 00:21:27,140 --> 00:21:29,740 last week, so, little baby. 497 00:21:29,740 --> 00:21:32,940 And, yeah, that sets me in a nutshell. 498 00:21:32,940 --> 00:21:36,780 - The excitement at your house is just overflowing right now. 499 00:21:36,780 --> 00:21:40,340 - Yes, yeah, so, we're hoping to have another one here 500 00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:43,180 coming up soon this year, so, that'd be nice. 501 00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:45,740 - We are so glad to have you here. 502 00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:49,020 We've been waiting for new members, so. 503 00:21:49,020 --> 00:21:51,420 - Especially with young child, it's so grateful 504 00:21:51,420 --> 00:21:54,020 that you're willing to contribute your time 505 00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:58,060 with probably your wife and child, wish you were home. 506 00:21:58,060 --> 00:22:01,420 - Oh, no, wife of an attorney, she is used to not seeing me 507 00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:05,220 until about midnight, get up at 5 a.m. and I'm gone, 508 00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:06,860 so, yeah, she's used to it. 509 00:22:06,860 --> 00:22:08,180 - Thank you so much for your time. 510 00:22:08,180 --> 00:22:09,020 - Thank you. 511 00:22:09,020 --> 00:22:10,340 - Of course, I'm excited to be here. 512 00:22:10,340 --> 00:22:14,340 - So, Andrea, I'm gonna tell him a little bit about yourself. 513 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:19,900 - Yes, Andrea Eberhardt, I am a special education teacher 514 00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:24,900 here in Denton ISD, I work with students, more specifically, 515 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:28,780 that have behavior issues at school. 516 00:22:28,780 --> 00:22:33,460 My background is in psychology and research psychology, 517 00:22:33,460 --> 00:22:35,540 so, I have a little bit of a different path 518 00:22:35,540 --> 00:22:40,140 than a regular teacher, I have two grown children, 519 00:22:40,140 --> 00:22:45,140 both graduated from college, one is about to be 25, 520 00:22:45,140 --> 00:22:48,180 the other one is 22. 521 00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:49,020 - Nice. 522 00:22:51,140 --> 00:22:55,580 - My name's Annetta Ramsey, I am a PhD trained 523 00:22:55,580 --> 00:22:58,820 licensed counselor, I specialize in eating disorders. 524 00:22:58,820 --> 00:23:04,460 I also like to write and I'm finishing up a book right now, 525 00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:08,300 so, and I have two grown sons, one is an engineer 526 00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:12,580 who works at Peterbilt and the other is, 527 00:23:12,580 --> 00:23:17,220 he works at Yellowstone, so we get to Yellowstone 528 00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:18,900 and we come in canvases. 529 00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:21,660 - Nice, I'm a sucker for Yellowstone. 530 00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:23,580 - Oh, he's such an important place. 531 00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:28,100 - My name's Dustin Pavlick, I'm a mechanical engineer, 532 00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:30,980 I work for a consulting firm, it's based in Houston, 533 00:23:30,980 --> 00:23:34,020 but I work here in Denton, I was born and raised 534 00:23:34,020 --> 00:23:38,060 in Denton, went to Denton ISD schools and I had two kids 535 00:23:38,060 --> 00:23:40,540 in Denton ISD schools, one was in elementary 536 00:23:40,540 --> 00:23:44,300 and one was a freshman and didn't run, nice, okay. 537 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:49,300 - I'm Pat Renke and I'm a licensed professional counselor 538 00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:53,020 and I'm mostly retired and have few clients still. 539 00:23:53,020 --> 00:23:58,260 And I have three grown children and four grandchildren 540 00:23:58,260 --> 00:24:03,260 and lived in Denton since 1985 and involved in a lot 541 00:24:03,260 --> 00:24:05,940 of different groups over the years. 542 00:24:05,940 --> 00:24:12,940 - My name is David Zoltner, I have been a Denton resident 543 00:24:12,940 --> 00:24:16,580 for about 40 years, my children have all graduated 544 00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:20,100 and moved on, I have been a city council candidate 545 00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:21,760 more than once, ever one. 546 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,140 This ethics board and the ethics ordinance 547 00:24:26,140 --> 00:24:31,140 was one of our endeavors back in the early 2012s, 548 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:35,700 so this is kind of what I've been shooting for 549 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:39,540 and hoping for for many, many years, so welcome. 550 00:24:39,540 --> 00:24:40,540 - Thank you. 551 00:24:40,540 --> 00:24:43,520 - Great, are we still in recess? 552 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,060 - Give me those. 553 00:24:46,060 --> 00:24:46,900 - Do what? 554 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:50,140 - Do we have a time for the recess, did you get the time? 555 00:24:50,140 --> 00:24:51,340 - You have to call. 556 00:24:51,340 --> 00:24:52,580 - I don't know if we called it. 557 00:24:52,580 --> 00:24:53,860 - I don't think we did. 558 00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:56,460 - Oh, okay, but we are officially in recess, 559 00:24:56,460 --> 00:25:01,460 this is now 5.55, so we will recess until 6.05. 560 00:25:01,460 --> 00:25:05,820 - Yes, Scott said he's five minutes away, 561 00:25:05,820 --> 00:25:06,660 so he should be here. 562 00:25:06,660 --> 00:25:07,500 - Okay. 563 00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:16,700 - Madison, can you say a little bit? 564 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:20,780 Madison is our advisor and she is the auditor 565 00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:21,620 for the city. 566 00:25:21,620 --> 00:25:23,900 - I'm the city auditor. 567 00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,180 (audience laughing) 568 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:27,100 - I just gathered. 569 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:32,420 - I was in 2020, I report directly to the city council. 570 00:25:32,420 --> 00:25:37,080 I do performance auditing for the city, 571 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,620 so that's my real job, but I am happy to help out here. 572 00:25:42,820 --> 00:25:46,180 - Have you won a national award for plus two? 573 00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:47,500 - I think it was a couple years ago. 574 00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:49,820 - A couple years ago, yeah. 575 00:25:49,820 --> 00:25:52,020 - We won a couple awards, so. 576 00:25:52,020 --> 00:25:53,220 - Nice, yeah. 577 00:25:53,220 --> 00:25:57,180 How long have you been in city politics for? 578 00:25:57,180 --> 00:26:03,140 - This city, I moved here in 2019, 579 00:26:03,140 --> 00:26:04,860 and I was at a college station before that, 580 00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:06,100 I'm part of the city now. 581 00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:06,940 - Okay, nice. 582 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:12,980 - What about Joey, who are you? 583 00:26:12,980 --> 00:26:17,980 - All right, I'm the financial administrative assistant. 584 00:26:17,980 --> 00:26:21,140 I work with Madison, and I also work with 585 00:26:21,140 --> 00:26:24,940 marketing communications, budget, payroll, a lot of hats. 586 00:26:24,940 --> 00:26:29,180 But I'm the one, I guess, trying to set everything up. 587 00:26:29,180 --> 00:26:31,940 - The one who gets things done, yeah. 588 00:26:31,940 --> 00:26:32,900 - Try, try. 589 00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:38,740 - Okay, we will continue with our recess. 590 00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:42,540 - I don't think, I think we can, I don't know. 591 00:26:42,540 --> 00:26:43,660 - Okay, we can call ourselves, 592 00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:46,020 I'm calling an end to the recess. 593 00:26:46,020 --> 00:26:49,460 - No, you should wait until 6 o' five, 594 00:26:49,460 --> 00:26:52,260 because someone has left, expecting until-- 595 00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:54,180 - Oh, okay, that's good, okay. 596 00:26:54,180 --> 00:27:00,220 - I'm sorry, I'm late, I worked here for three years, 597 00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:02,740 I never had that happen, where my calendar 598 00:27:02,740 --> 00:27:04,580 just didn't have a meeting on it, so. 599 00:27:04,580 --> 00:27:05,580 - Oh man. 600 00:27:05,580 --> 00:27:08,300 - I forgot to check the public notices, so. 601 00:27:09,660 --> 00:27:13,500 - Thank you for giving, you're pretty important to us. 602 00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:19,260 So why don't you introduce yourself, we've all. 603 00:27:19,260 --> 00:27:22,580 - Oh, I'm Scott, I'm the deputy city attorney, 604 00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:25,260 I'm a parliamentarian for this board. 605 00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:27,900 So I try to help with, I help with the 606 00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:30,500 parliamentary procedure, Robert's Rules, stuff like that. 607 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:36,660 I don't, I try not to get too deep into giving advice, 608 00:27:36,860 --> 00:27:40,820 because my office is covered by, 609 00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:42,300 well not, maybe not me specifically, 610 00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:45,300 but my boss is covered by the ethics ordinance, 611 00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:49,100 so I try to let y'all make those recommendations 612 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:52,500 to city council without interfering too much. 613 00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:54,860 But I just try to make sure we're all complying 614 00:27:54,860 --> 00:27:59,500 with the means act and Robert's Rules, yeah. 615 00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:05,300 - Are you an RP or a PRP, the registered parliamentarian? 616 00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,100 - Yes, I am a registered parliamentarian. 617 00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:08,940 - Nice, I wanted to talk with you about that, 618 00:28:08,940 --> 00:28:13,940 and wanting to, you know, there's not a course for that. 619 00:28:13,940 --> 00:28:18,300 You would think it would be like a Barbary-style, 620 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:23,300 here's how you, let's prep you for the RP test, but. 621 00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:27,220 - No, but they're, the test's pretty easy. 622 00:28:27,220 --> 00:28:28,540 And there's a. 623 00:28:28,540 --> 00:28:30,100 - Don't even say that. 624 00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:32,540 - There's a really short book that's just, 625 00:28:34,780 --> 00:28:39,460 like Robert's Rules Made Easy or something like that. 626 00:28:39,460 --> 00:28:42,820 So as long as you, all the answers to the test are in there, 627 00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:44,660 pretty much work for work. 628 00:28:44,660 --> 00:28:47,900 So just read that through and then you're good for the. 629 00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:52,020 The first step, now getting the advanced, 630 00:28:52,020 --> 00:28:53,740 sort of like, whatever it's called, 631 00:28:53,740 --> 00:28:56,620 the thing I don't have, that's a more complicated test, 632 00:28:56,620 --> 00:28:59,340 where you really have to know all the minutiae. 633 00:28:59,340 --> 00:29:03,380 It takes a lot of time, a lot of effort, but. 634 00:29:03,380 --> 00:29:07,300 I really wish more people knew about Robert's Rules of Order, 635 00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:10,180 'cause it really can streamline a meeting. 636 00:29:10,180 --> 00:29:15,180 But when most people don't understand it, it's tough, so. 637 00:29:15,180 --> 00:29:21,940 - Then you end up with your stereotypical HOA meeting, 638 00:29:21,940 --> 00:29:26,020 everybody's yelling and speaking out of order and all that. 639 00:29:26,020 --> 00:29:26,860 - Oh, yeah. 640 00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:27,700 - No. 641 00:29:31,540 --> 00:29:33,980 - Robert's Rules. 642 00:29:33,980 --> 00:29:36,620 - No, it still works, so. 643 00:29:36,620 --> 00:29:44,860 I was a student body officer in college 644 00:29:44,860 --> 00:29:49,020 and we were debating something really tough 645 00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:51,740 and the vice president wanted to participate 646 00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:54,940 in the discussion, so he handed the gavel to me 647 00:29:54,940 --> 00:29:59,740 in my first week as the elected secretary of the student body 648 00:29:59,740 --> 00:30:01,500 and it was an epic fail. 649 00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:04,260 - Can I ask you a question? 650 00:30:04,260 --> 00:30:05,220 Let's see how long. 651 00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:06,260 - You're out of order. 652 00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:07,820 - Oh, I thought you were in recess. 653 00:30:07,820 --> 00:30:10,900 - We were, actually, sorry, should we get back into it? 654 00:30:10,900 --> 00:30:11,780 - Yeah. - I know. 655 00:30:11,780 --> 00:30:13,140 - Yeah. - Sorry. 656 00:30:13,140 --> 00:30:16,060 - Sorry, we are out of recess now, yeah. 657 00:30:16,060 --> 00:30:24,340 Okay, so we're going to agenda item C, 658 00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:29,180 BOE 24-050, receive a report, hold a discussion, 659 00:30:29,180 --> 00:30:32,380 and give staff direction regarding the processing 660 00:30:32,380 --> 00:30:36,540 of anonymous hotline reports related to alleged violations 661 00:30:36,540 --> 00:30:38,540 of the City of Denton Code of Ordinances, 662 00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:43,380 chapter two, article 11, ethics. 663 00:30:43,380 --> 00:30:48,140 - Yeah, so this is an issue, I'm sorry, 664 00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:52,780 that recently came up for the first time, we got to, 665 00:30:52,780 --> 00:30:55,340 the anonymous hotline is really intended 666 00:30:55,340 --> 00:30:57,020 for fraud, waste, and abuse complaints. 667 00:30:57,020 --> 00:31:00,820 It's managed by my office, so we received, 668 00:31:00,820 --> 00:31:05,740 and Scott's also one that can lead the process of those, 669 00:31:05,740 --> 00:31:07,820 but, and so is the HR director, 670 00:31:07,820 --> 00:31:10,980 but we received two anonymous hotline reports 671 00:31:10,980 --> 00:31:13,980 that appeared to be related to the ethics appointments, 672 00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:15,620 so I'm making you aware of those. 673 00:31:15,620 --> 00:31:18,260 We handled them by just notifying them 674 00:31:18,260 --> 00:31:22,180 that they had not submitted an administratively complete 675 00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:24,100 complaint, which is required, you have to be required 676 00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:26,940 to use the form, but we wanted to bring that up to y'all 677 00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:29,060 because it's kind of a gray area, 678 00:31:29,060 --> 00:31:31,820 an ordinance, exactly what should happen. 679 00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:36,620 In the mandate section, it says that there's a duty 680 00:31:36,620 --> 00:31:38,580 to report, but it says that you can basically 681 00:31:38,580 --> 00:31:41,540 absolve that duty by using the anonymous hotline, 682 00:31:41,540 --> 00:31:44,460 but it also says that I have no duty to actually 683 00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:46,380 investigate anything submitted that way, 684 00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:49,060 so it's a little unclear what should happen, 685 00:31:49,060 --> 00:31:51,420 so I brought a couple of potential options, 686 00:31:51,420 --> 00:31:53,620 but I wanted to get direction on future complaints 687 00:31:53,620 --> 00:31:56,180 from y'all if we receive any that way, 688 00:31:56,180 --> 00:32:00,100 what you would like to occur, if that makes sense. 689 00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:03,500 - So what is your pleasure, looking at these three options? 690 00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:09,140 - For clarification, you were able to retrieve 691 00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:10,740 a phone number and-- 692 00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:13,660 - No, so the system-- - Because it is an in, okay. 693 00:32:13,660 --> 00:32:16,340 - It's anonymous, so the system is essentially 694 00:32:16,340 --> 00:32:19,940 a case management system, so it allows you to respond 695 00:32:19,940 --> 00:32:23,180 within the system, but it required for the person 696 00:32:23,180 --> 00:32:26,380 to get that information, they have to log back in 697 00:32:26,380 --> 00:32:30,420 as a whole process for that, but I don't necessarily know 698 00:32:30,420 --> 00:32:32,380 if they have logged back in or not. 699 00:32:32,380 --> 00:32:35,020 - Okay, so you don't know if your 700 00:32:35,020 --> 00:32:40,220 direction was received by the person or not. 701 00:32:40,220 --> 00:32:41,860 - That's correct. - There's, okay. 702 00:32:41,860 --> 00:32:47,820 - So what's your pleasure, guys? 703 00:32:47,820 --> 00:32:53,020 - So are these still active, or have they expired? 704 00:32:53,020 --> 00:32:55,020 - They, at this point, they have been, 705 00:32:55,020 --> 00:32:57,740 they're considered abandoned, there's been 10 business days 706 00:32:57,740 --> 00:33:00,780 with no resubmission on the correct form. 707 00:33:00,780 --> 00:33:04,980 - Well this was, like I said, this is kind of new territory 708 00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:09,260 for all of us, so I just had some questions here. 709 00:33:09,260 --> 00:33:13,780 If there, were the, you said two complaints, 710 00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:15,900 was it two complaints from the same person 711 00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:18,340 or two different people on the same topic? 712 00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:20,340 - I do not know, they're anonymous. 713 00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:21,300 - You do not, okay. 714 00:33:22,180 --> 00:33:23,980 Were they on the same topic? 715 00:33:23,980 --> 00:33:25,060 - They were not on the same, 716 00:33:25,060 --> 00:33:26,660 they were not the same complaint. 717 00:33:26,660 --> 00:33:29,300 That makes sense. 718 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:32,740 - So from what you have now, you're not really sure 719 00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:36,220 whether they were just alleged or actual violations. 720 00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:40,300 - Correct, only one of them's, I mean, 721 00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:43,140 I don't wanna get too into the actual complaints because-- 722 00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:46,060 - I'm not asking you to, I'm just, for future, 723 00:33:46,060 --> 00:33:47,340 your future word there, yeah. 724 00:33:47,340 --> 00:33:51,900 - Okay, yeah, they both referenced 725 00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:53,540 that ethics ordinance, one of them 726 00:33:53,540 --> 00:33:54,860 was a little more specific. 727 00:33:54,860 --> 00:34:01,060 - Well in the future, I think this is something 728 00:34:01,060 --> 00:34:04,220 that we maybe need to talk more about at some point. 729 00:34:04,220 --> 00:34:07,260 Because I would hate to see two separate pathways 730 00:34:07,260 --> 00:34:09,220 for staff members and citizens here. 731 00:34:09,220 --> 00:34:12,900 So either we put them together, you know, just-- 732 00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:15,420 - Well everybody can submit a complaint. 733 00:34:15,420 --> 00:34:19,380 The anonymous hotline is open to anybody. 734 00:34:19,380 --> 00:34:22,660 Staff members, city staff, and members of the public. 735 00:34:22,660 --> 00:34:25,500 Does that make sense? 736 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:26,780 - Yeah, so members of the public 737 00:34:26,780 --> 00:34:30,380 are now able to submit anonymous? 738 00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:31,340 - Yes. - Always have been. 739 00:34:31,340 --> 00:34:33,620 - They always have been, yeah. 740 00:34:33,620 --> 00:34:35,820 - But then how do they, well-- 741 00:34:35,820 --> 00:34:38,700 - I just wanna say, I've always had a hard time 742 00:34:38,700 --> 00:34:40,860 with the anonymous part because it does not 743 00:34:40,860 --> 00:34:42,980 feel like due process. 744 00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:45,060 And I feel like if you're gonna make a complaint, 745 00:34:45,060 --> 00:34:48,420 you should say who you are. 746 00:34:48,420 --> 00:34:50,900 Is it possible, I don't think it's possible 747 00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:53,820 for a complaint to be administratively complete 748 00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:55,980 if it is anonymous, right? 749 00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:58,180 - That's correct, because the ordinance requires 750 00:34:58,180 --> 00:35:00,740 certain contents basically of the complaint, 751 00:35:00,740 --> 00:35:02,740 which I think includes their name and address, 752 00:35:02,740 --> 00:35:03,580 things like that. 753 00:35:03,580 --> 00:35:07,540 - So I think the only way, unless we change 754 00:35:07,540 --> 00:35:11,860 the requirements for an administratively complete complaint, 755 00:35:11,860 --> 00:35:17,460 then it has, we can't use the anonymous hotline. 756 00:35:18,580 --> 00:35:21,500 So I think the question is more of do we, 757 00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:25,020 should we allow for an anonymous ethics complaint 758 00:35:25,020 --> 00:35:28,180 to be submitted, and if that's the path we go, 759 00:35:28,180 --> 00:35:31,300 then we have to rewrite a huge part of the code 760 00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:36,300 and the rules and procedure or whatever the document is. 761 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,340 - So maybe number three, recommend that city council 762 00:35:39,340 --> 00:35:42,380 remove the language about anonymity. 763 00:35:42,380 --> 00:35:47,100 Is that, that was-- 764 00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:52,100 - So to me, as far as what is the easiest path forward 765 00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:56,740 to make this work, that's the easiest path. 766 00:35:56,740 --> 00:35:59,940 And I don't think that there should be, 767 00:35:59,940 --> 00:36:04,380 I think that there is reason for having a requirement 768 00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:09,380 to have the complainant involved in the process. 769 00:36:09,380 --> 00:36:12,220 - Called to process, I think, yeah. 770 00:36:12,220 --> 00:36:17,220 - Right, and it's not, I mean, I think combining 771 00:36:17,220 --> 00:36:23,140 number one and number three there would be 772 00:36:23,140 --> 00:36:25,740 probably the best path, because there may be people 773 00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:30,740 that are submitting an ethics complaint in good faith 774 00:36:30,740 --> 00:36:35,700 and using that tool to do it and they just don't know. 775 00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:39,900 So if you have a canned response that says, 776 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:43,020 this, thank you for your complaint, here is the correct 777 00:36:43,020 --> 00:36:48,020 method and forms to do that, I feel like we're 778 00:36:48,020 --> 00:36:52,620 kinda closing the loop on the complaint if that person 779 00:36:52,620 --> 00:36:57,620 is interested in that becoming, going into the actual 780 00:36:57,620 --> 00:37:02,140 ethics complaint process, I don't see any reason 781 00:37:02,140 --> 00:37:05,980 to ask you to forward any kind of report or complaint to us 782 00:37:05,980 --> 00:37:09,380 that's anonymous because we can't do anything with it. 783 00:37:09,380 --> 00:37:10,800 So I would rather not. 784 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,020 - I think if the city council would just take the language 785 00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:17,900 out, that would solve the problem. 786 00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:19,780 - But where does that language appear? 787 00:37:19,780 --> 00:37:22,700 - It's in section-- 788 00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:25,740 - Yeah, that's gonna go straight to our amendment 789 00:37:25,740 --> 00:37:27,540 to our current code then. 790 00:37:27,540 --> 00:37:29,180 - That would be part of the run language. 791 00:37:29,180 --> 00:37:34,180 - It's in section 2-272A, duty to report under mandates. 792 00:37:37,940 --> 00:37:42,940 And it's like the last line that it says, it's essentially 793 00:37:42,940 --> 00:37:49,180 just saying if you know about a violation, you can report 794 00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:53,540 it anonymously and that fulfills your duty under 795 00:37:53,540 --> 00:37:56,780 the ordinance, but I don't know how, you guys could just 796 00:37:56,780 --> 00:37:58,380 say that you did that, but. 797 00:37:58,380 --> 00:38:04,420 - So could we, if we have a motion to add that, 798 00:38:04,940 --> 00:38:08,340 just striking that last line at that one section 799 00:38:08,340 --> 00:38:09,940 as part of our red line thing? 800 00:38:09,940 --> 00:38:12,580 - Drew, if you would like to give direction to move forward 801 00:38:12,580 --> 00:38:14,420 with the order to do a motion. 802 00:38:14,420 --> 00:38:16,580 - Do I hear a motion? 803 00:38:16,580 --> 00:38:23,300 - Well, while I am making things easier 100%, 804 00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:32,380 do we risk the protection, the anonymity, 805 00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:39,660 and this complaint process provides to maybe 806 00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:43,300 the more vulnerable public and-- 807 00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:45,460 - Great question, yeah. 808 00:38:45,460 --> 00:38:47,300 - It's a fine. 809 00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:49,780 - Yeah, that's an absolutely great question. 810 00:38:49,780 --> 00:38:52,180 It's something we're debating on and then a part of the-- 811 00:38:52,180 --> 00:38:56,500 - Right, that is a huge part of the conversation 812 00:38:56,500 --> 00:39:00,140 that we've had over the past year, is making it 813 00:39:00,140 --> 00:39:04,720 more accessible and available to all citizens. 814 00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:09,660 My concern is if we are having anonymous complaints, 815 00:39:09,660 --> 00:39:14,660 then the whole frivolousness of potential complaints 816 00:39:14,660 --> 00:39:19,100 becomes a whole different story, because then 817 00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:21,580 there is absolutely, you know, then there's-- 818 00:39:21,580 --> 00:39:23,780 - Could you skew it in the other direction? 819 00:39:23,780 --> 00:39:27,180 I think a better fix would be to look at this, 820 00:39:27,180 --> 00:39:29,820 removing the, there's one thing that we're, 821 00:39:29,820 --> 00:39:31,980 hopefully we'll talk about tonight, 822 00:39:31,980 --> 00:39:35,060 that I think would fix it, but-- 823 00:39:35,060 --> 00:39:40,060 - It seems like this language and the ordinance is to, 824 00:39:40,060 --> 00:39:48,340 is to kind of protect someone who is aware of a complaint 825 00:39:48,340 --> 00:39:50,460 and has a duty to enforce-- - And fears 826 00:39:50,460 --> 00:39:52,380 some kind of retribution. 827 00:39:52,380 --> 00:39:56,700 - Or more so than it is to allow for anonymous complaints 828 00:39:56,700 --> 00:40:01,060 by the public, because the, I mean, the code is written 829 00:40:01,060 --> 00:40:04,860 sets that we can't do anything with an anonymous complaint. 830 00:40:04,860 --> 00:40:08,540 I mean, there's not a pathway for that to ever get 831 00:40:08,540 --> 00:40:12,420 to a three member panel to review it. 832 00:40:12,420 --> 00:40:15,900 - Well, I think it would depend on the complaint. 833 00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:22,300 I think there are some complaints that could be acted upon 834 00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,780 even though it was anonymous, can't give you an example. 835 00:40:25,780 --> 00:40:29,140 - We don't have a, that's not allowed by the code. 836 00:40:29,140 --> 00:40:31,060 I mean, it's not so much that like whether or not 837 00:40:31,060 --> 00:40:36,060 the complaint is, should be actionable or if it's frivolous 838 00:40:36,060 --> 00:40:39,380 or whatever it is, we would never, the board members 839 00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:43,140 would never see or hear the complaint because the process 840 00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:47,020 requires Madison to review the complaint 841 00:40:47,020 --> 00:40:50,700 for administrative completeness, which would require 842 00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:55,020 the complainants to be named and all the, I mean that, 843 00:40:56,220 --> 00:41:01,220 unless we could, we could look at changing that process 844 00:41:01,220 --> 00:41:06,420 so that there is some pathway for an anonymous complaint 845 00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:10,100 that comes in through the hotline to be considered 846 00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:14,060 or to be exempt from that naming of the complainant, 847 00:41:14,060 --> 00:41:19,060 which is fine with me, but we would have to change the words. 848 00:41:19,060 --> 00:41:22,500 - I agree with that completely because what could happen 849 00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:26,060 theoretically is a staff member could be aware of something 850 00:41:26,060 --> 00:41:28,460 and file an anonymous complaint, 851 00:41:28,460 --> 00:41:30,740 really not hoping that it ever goes anywhere, 852 00:41:30,740 --> 00:41:33,580 but I'm off the hook, you know, because I'm with the West. 853 00:41:33,580 --> 00:41:34,420 - Right. 854 00:41:34,420 --> 00:41:38,060 - And so I think that could be a very harmful tool 855 00:41:38,060 --> 00:41:42,260 if we let that go without, you know, very completely. 856 00:41:42,260 --> 00:41:45,380 - When we drafted this policy or this ordinance, 857 00:41:45,380 --> 00:41:48,300 why didn't we include a conflicting provision 858 00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:50,420 that doesn't allow anonymous complaints 859 00:41:50,420 --> 00:41:52,060 but allows anonymous complaints? 860 00:41:52,060 --> 00:41:53,660 - That's a really great question. 861 00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:55,260 (laughing) 862 00:41:55,260 --> 00:41:56,460 - Welcome to the-- 863 00:41:56,460 --> 00:41:57,660 - So glad you're here. 864 00:41:57,660 --> 00:42:00,580 - One you can answer. 865 00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:03,580 - Yeah, we can't answer that, yeah. 866 00:42:03,580 --> 00:42:05,740 Nobody gets the answer to that. 867 00:42:05,740 --> 00:42:08,900 So do I hear a motion about how-- 868 00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:11,060 - This is a, we're not posted for action, 869 00:42:11,060 --> 00:42:14,060 so let's give staff directions of the motion. 870 00:42:14,060 --> 00:42:17,580 - So what recommendation? 871 00:42:17,580 --> 00:42:23,300 - I'm the Dustin, I like a combination of one and three, 872 00:42:24,580 --> 00:42:28,060 and I think that we should consider adding 873 00:42:28,060 --> 00:42:33,740 the complaint process back onto the agenda. 874 00:42:33,740 --> 00:42:39,980 - I like the idea, is there a way we could 875 00:42:39,980 --> 00:42:48,420 recommend an amendment to maybe a confidential complaint? 876 00:42:48,420 --> 00:42:50,940 - Yes. 877 00:42:50,940 --> 00:42:53,540 - So that, you know, you can make this confidentially, 878 00:42:53,540 --> 00:42:56,940 you know, it's not anonymous, we have to know who you are 879 00:42:56,940 --> 00:43:00,340 so we can look into it, but it is confidential. 880 00:43:00,340 --> 00:43:01,180 - Right. 881 00:43:01,180 --> 00:43:03,660 Because at the end of the day, none of us, 882 00:43:03,660 --> 00:43:07,340 it matters to none of us who that complainant is. 883 00:43:07,340 --> 00:43:08,180 - No, not at all. 884 00:43:08,180 --> 00:43:12,340 - It just, as long as it is administratively completed. 885 00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:14,180 - And I think that if it's confidential, 886 00:43:14,180 --> 00:43:16,780 the person should be able to state 887 00:43:16,780 --> 00:43:19,780 why they need the confidentiality. 888 00:43:21,260 --> 00:43:25,060 - So, complaints are considered confidential 889 00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:27,020 until they are posted on an agenda. 890 00:43:27,020 --> 00:43:27,860 - Right. 891 00:43:27,860 --> 00:43:31,540 - Don't know, I guess the complaint itself, 892 00:43:31,540 --> 00:43:34,940 you could redact from there, I don't know Scott, 893 00:43:34,940 --> 00:43:37,380 we'd have to look a couple of times. 894 00:43:37,380 --> 00:43:39,140 - Well, I would just want to look into 895 00:43:39,140 --> 00:43:41,820 Public Information Act, 'cause we can say, 896 00:43:41,820 --> 00:43:43,260 you know, call something confidential, 897 00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:46,180 but it might not actually be confidential 898 00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:48,980 under open records laws, and it could be 899 00:43:48,980 --> 00:43:51,500 a request by the respondent. 900 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:55,300 - Maybe we should revisit this issue again 901 00:43:55,300 --> 00:44:00,820 at the next meeting, and give you some time to make some. 902 00:44:00,820 --> 00:44:05,060 - We can do, that's the direction, 903 00:44:05,060 --> 00:44:08,860 do research into confidentiality 904 00:44:08,860 --> 00:44:12,380 under the Open Records Act for these types of complaints. 905 00:44:12,380 --> 00:44:14,980 And then in the meantime, it sounds like we're, 906 00:44:14,980 --> 00:44:18,540 if we get another one, we'll go with step, 907 00:44:18,540 --> 00:44:20,580 or option one, right, in time, basically. 908 00:44:20,580 --> 00:44:21,420 - Mm-hmm. 909 00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:24,580 - What, on the general direction, or? 910 00:44:24,580 --> 00:44:25,580 - Yes, question. 911 00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:30,380 I was kind of on the fence between a couple of these, 912 00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:33,260 but one of the things I always wonder 913 00:44:33,260 --> 00:44:36,140 is where we are with other cities. 914 00:44:36,140 --> 00:44:39,140 I mean, any time we hit a new issue, 915 00:44:39,140 --> 00:44:43,060 I'm always wondering about other cities. 916 00:44:43,060 --> 00:44:45,180 Is this fraud, waste, and abuse hotline 917 00:44:45,180 --> 00:44:47,980 elsewhere in Madison, or is there anything similar 918 00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:51,780 that we can learn from our neighbors on this? 919 00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:58,060 - I know that most cities that have city auditors, 920 00:44:58,060 --> 00:45:01,460 or inspector generals, have a fraud, waste, 921 00:45:01,460 --> 00:45:06,380 and abuse hotline, but not all cities have city auditors. 922 00:45:06,380 --> 00:45:12,620 If that helps, so I can look into 923 00:45:12,620 --> 00:45:16,860 the ones, our general benchmark cities, 924 00:45:16,860 --> 00:45:19,780 if they have city auditors, if they have 925 00:45:19,780 --> 00:45:21,220 a fraud, waste, and abuse hotline, 926 00:45:21,220 --> 00:45:23,100 and if it's referenced at all in there. 927 00:45:23,100 --> 00:45:26,260 I mean, in most of the cities that we look at, 928 00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:29,300 the city auditor isn't involved in the process at all. 929 00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:34,100 It's usually the city secretary, or some other. 930 00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:37,020 - I think it probably has to do with the size of the city, 931 00:45:37,020 --> 00:45:39,540 too, because the bigger the cities, 932 00:45:39,540 --> 00:45:44,180 the more auditors and hotlines. 933 00:45:44,180 --> 00:45:46,220 - Yeah, usually larger cities. 934 00:45:46,220 --> 00:45:48,380 I could easily be convinced to just do away 935 00:45:48,380 --> 00:45:51,340 with fraud, waste, and abuse hotline all together, 936 00:45:51,340 --> 00:45:53,660 but I'd like to know more about what other cities 937 00:45:53,660 --> 00:45:55,700 have going on, or what they have. 938 00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:57,340 - That's not on the agenda. 939 00:45:57,340 --> 00:45:58,380 - Oh, yeah. - Yeah. 940 00:45:58,380 --> 00:46:00,060 - I mean-- - It's not today, though. 941 00:46:00,060 --> 00:46:01,940 - The fraud, waste, and abuse hotline is not under 942 00:46:01,940 --> 00:46:03,540 the discretion of the Board of Ethics. 943 00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:04,780 - Yeah. 944 00:46:04,780 --> 00:46:06,420 - If it's in the ordinance, you can make 945 00:46:06,420 --> 00:46:08,140 a recommendation about it. 946 00:46:08,140 --> 00:46:09,260 - Well, I made a recommendation. 947 00:46:09,260 --> 00:46:11,980 I know we don't have the authority to line it up. 948 00:46:11,980 --> 00:46:14,660 - I would like to hear what Scott can come up with 949 00:46:14,660 --> 00:46:16,420 in terms of investigating it, 950 00:46:16,420 --> 00:46:18,380 'cause I know he has so little to do. 951 00:46:18,380 --> 00:46:22,260 - Can I add something? - Yes. 952 00:46:22,260 --> 00:46:24,420 - I think that we spend a bunch of time trying 953 00:46:24,420 --> 00:46:27,340 to pull the responsibilities, like all the burden-approved 954 00:46:27,340 --> 00:46:32,340 stuff out, with the intention of making it easier 955 00:46:32,340 --> 00:46:38,220 for a citizen to go through the process 956 00:46:38,220 --> 00:46:40,460 of making a complaint and having it heard. 957 00:46:40,460 --> 00:46:41,740 - We need something that bridges. 958 00:46:41,740 --> 00:46:45,900 - Right, and those recommendations were rejected 959 00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:50,900 by Council, so I don't know what that did to me. 960 00:46:50,900 --> 00:46:58,180 Knowing that, I would expect them to support 961 00:46:58,180 --> 00:47:02,320 removing that language from the ordinance. 962 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:08,780 One, it doesn't allow for a complaint to be processed 963 00:47:12,140 --> 00:47:15,260 through that hotline, and two, because we can't 964 00:47:15,260 --> 00:47:18,860 do anything with it, so anyway, I don't know 965 00:47:18,860 --> 00:47:20,740 if that matters or not. 966 00:47:20,740 --> 00:47:22,780 - I like the third option for those reasons, 967 00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:26,380 and one of the main purposes of the Board of Ethics 968 00:47:26,380 --> 00:47:31,140 is transparency, and I think it is important 969 00:47:31,140 --> 00:47:34,680 that the person filing the complaint be known. 970 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,980 There's so many ways it could be abused. 971 00:47:38,980 --> 00:47:41,580 - So can we put this on the agenda for next time 972 00:47:41,580 --> 00:47:44,600 to delve into it a little bit more? 973 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,980 - You say, you mean come back with potentially 974 00:47:48,980 --> 00:47:51,960 some research on open ethics ability, or? 975 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:57,440 - I mean, I think it's really important to, 976 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,620 I mean, we can't do anything with the way it stands now, 977 00:48:01,620 --> 00:48:04,820 but at the same time, I think it is a way 978 00:48:04,820 --> 00:48:07,780 to protect vulnerable citizens who are just trying 979 00:48:07,780 --> 00:48:11,420 to do the right thing, so something that would bridge 980 00:48:11,420 --> 00:48:15,100 that gap would be good, and maybe a recommendation 981 00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:16,400 to put into the code. 982 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,600 - I'm personally not even all that concerned necessarily 983 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,420 about vulnerable citizens, but what about city employees 984 00:48:25,420 --> 00:48:30,420 that are actually, that might be privy to ethic complaints, 985 00:48:30,420 --> 00:48:32,880 but are then concerned about it? 986 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,860 - They have their own code, which I think 987 00:48:37,860 --> 00:48:39,660 is a very good one, actually. 988 00:48:41,220 --> 00:48:42,740 - They have their own policy? 989 00:48:42,740 --> 00:48:45,460 - Yes, I would say that, but I think you're speaking 990 00:48:45,460 --> 00:48:48,980 about employees who are trying to take a complaint 991 00:48:48,980 --> 00:48:50,860 about city officials, right? 992 00:48:50,860 --> 00:48:56,720 - Could you look into, I think what I'd really like 993 00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:00,500 to look into, how could we have something 994 00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:03,860 that's confidential and still not violate 995 00:49:03,860 --> 00:49:08,540 the Open Records Act, if that's even a possible path? 996 00:49:08,540 --> 00:49:11,260 - But in general, I'd like to lean toward three. 997 00:49:11,260 --> 00:49:15,240 Does that make sense? 998 00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:16,080 - Yep. 999 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:16,920 - Okay. 1000 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:22,800 So, are we ready to move on to the next item? 1001 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,620 - I believe we have direction. 1002 00:49:26,620 --> 00:49:27,460 - Yes, okay. 1003 00:49:27,460 --> 00:49:34,580 Okay, item D, BOE 24-051, receiver report, 1004 00:49:34,580 --> 00:49:37,220 hold a discussion and give staff direction 1005 00:49:37,220 --> 00:49:40,680 regarding ethical changes in the code of ordinances, 1006 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,680 Chapter 2, Article 11, Ethics, Section 2-269, 1007 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:52,060 Definitions, Section 2-272, Mandates, Section 2-273, 1008 00:49:52,060 --> 00:49:58,020 Prohibition, Section 2-277, Board of Ethics, 1009 00:49:58,020 --> 00:50:00,820 and Section 2-281, here it is. 1010 00:50:06,660 --> 00:50:10,300 - So these were the changes that you presented last time. 1011 00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:13,600 I attempted to incorporate them into the ordinance 1012 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:18,600 based on what was in that, so we can talk through them or? 1013 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,600 - Sure. 1014 00:50:35,100 --> 00:50:40,100 So basically, there were just, there were four things 1015 00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:46,460 that the citizens voted on in 2017 1016 00:50:46,460 --> 00:50:50,420 that were supposed to be in the ethical code. 1017 00:50:50,420 --> 00:50:53,340 In studying it, when this came out to Charter Review 1018 00:50:53,340 --> 00:50:56,180 recently, I realized most of the things 1019 00:50:56,180 --> 00:50:59,460 that the citizens overwhelmingly voted for 1020 00:50:59,460 --> 00:51:01,840 were not in our Code of Ethics. 1021 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,220 So this is an attempt to fix it. 1022 00:51:05,540 --> 00:51:10,540 So, I was hoping we could use the city employee code 1023 00:51:10,540 --> 00:51:13,220 'cause I really like the way it's written, 1024 00:51:13,220 --> 00:51:17,380 but in studying it more, I realized it has a lot of things 1025 00:51:17,380 --> 00:51:18,980 that are specific to a place, 1026 00:51:18,980 --> 00:51:22,140 and we can't just have a sign of that. 1027 00:51:22,140 --> 00:51:25,020 So we're gonna have to go find my item. 1028 00:51:25,020 --> 00:51:28,340 So, this first one would be... 1029 00:51:33,820 --> 00:51:35,140 I'm sorry, I can't read it. 1030 00:51:35,140 --> 00:51:36,640 Okay, read it now. 1031 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,540 So, definition of conflict of interest 1032 00:51:40,540 --> 00:51:45,540 is a very narrow definition, and the wording, 1033 00:51:45,540 --> 00:51:50,060 the, is that where the pending matter thing is? 1034 00:51:50,060 --> 00:51:52,980 - This is straight from the employee ethics files. 1035 00:51:52,980 --> 00:51:54,700 - Okay, okay. 1036 00:51:54,700 --> 00:51:58,280 So, their code is much more broad, 1037 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,140 and it is written in a very great way 1038 00:52:01,140 --> 00:52:03,860 because it explains some of these concepts, 1039 00:52:03,860 --> 00:52:06,380 like what is conflict of interest? 1040 00:52:06,380 --> 00:52:10,300 Our code does not, and the definitions are very narrow. 1041 00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:11,860 There's some loopholes. 1042 00:52:11,860 --> 00:52:17,220 So, I was hoping we could just take the part 1043 00:52:17,220 --> 00:52:20,620 of the city employee thing that I like so much 1044 00:52:20,620 --> 00:52:23,700 and put it in place of what is there. 1045 00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:26,740 - Easier if I pulled up the employee ethics policy? 1046 00:52:26,740 --> 00:52:28,060 Would that be easier? 1047 00:52:28,060 --> 00:52:29,700 And it's basically this language. 1048 00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:31,140 - Yeah, it's this language. 1049 00:52:31,140 --> 00:52:36,140 So, what is problematic with the city code 1050 00:52:36,140 --> 00:52:38,300 that we've had for a long time 1051 00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:42,620 is it has pending matter in it, 1052 00:52:42,620 --> 00:52:44,380 and then if you go back to the glossary, 1053 00:52:44,380 --> 00:52:49,060 the definition in the glossary is even more narrow 1054 00:52:49,060 --> 00:52:53,500 than how people generally frame it in law. 1055 00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:58,060 And I'm not a lawyer, but I want something more broad. 1056 00:52:58,060 --> 00:53:03,060 So, I like this language, if you'll take a look at it. 1057 00:53:03,060 --> 00:53:15,380 So, this first part defines conflict of interest 1058 00:53:15,380 --> 00:53:16,800 more broadly. 1059 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:25,380 The code that we have makes it just about business 1060 00:53:25,380 --> 00:53:28,100 and what percentage of the business you own. 1061 00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:29,540 Do you love before? 1062 00:53:29,540 --> 00:53:37,260 - And for whatever it's for, 1063 00:53:37,260 --> 00:53:41,740 this is kind of a mirror image of the model code itself. 1064 00:53:41,740 --> 00:53:43,860 I mean, this is taking it all the way back 1065 00:53:43,860 --> 00:53:48,500 to the Wexler model. 1066 00:53:48,500 --> 00:53:53,500 So, this is a goal in my mind. 1067 00:53:56,220 --> 00:53:58,140 - So, questions? 1068 00:53:58,140 --> 00:54:02,680 - Under our definition of conflict, 1069 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:09,540 it says a conflict of interest is a situation 1070 00:54:09,540 --> 00:54:12,200 in which personal and/or financial considerations 1071 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,620 actually have or may have the potential to influence, 1072 00:54:16,620 --> 00:54:20,140 and then under two, the general rules, 1073 00:54:20,140 --> 00:54:25,140 we say city officials shall have proactivity 1074 00:54:25,780 --> 00:54:29,180 and transparent, or shall be proactive and transparent 1075 00:54:29,180 --> 00:54:30,460 within a relationship that creates 1076 00:54:30,460 --> 00:54:32,340 an actual potential conflict. 1077 00:54:32,340 --> 00:54:38,820 But we don't define, because conflict of interest 1078 00:54:38,820 --> 00:54:40,820 is defined as any potential, 1079 00:54:40,820 --> 00:54:46,340 I don't think we need potential in there. 1080 00:54:46,340 --> 00:54:47,180 - Oh, okay. 1081 00:54:47,180 --> 00:54:52,180 - Leads to vagueness, in my opinion. 1082 00:54:54,540 --> 00:54:57,540 - One of the essential differences in this 1083 00:54:57,540 --> 00:55:01,940 and what we have now is that this is not only current, 1084 00:55:01,940 --> 00:55:04,740 but this has a future aspect to it. 1085 00:55:04,740 --> 00:55:06,620 It has now or in the future. 1086 00:55:06,620 --> 00:55:10,660 Our current code is pending matter only. 1087 00:55:10,660 --> 00:55:15,100 So, if it hasn't happened yet, 1088 00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:19,220 so this is more futuristic and all-encompassing, 1089 00:55:19,220 --> 00:55:21,740 encompassing than what our current code is. 1090 00:55:21,740 --> 00:55:23,580 So, not only if-- 1091 00:55:23,580 --> 00:55:26,580 - So, what would you think about taking potential out? 1092 00:55:26,580 --> 00:55:28,740 Would that be okay? 1093 00:55:28,740 --> 00:55:29,580 - Just out of numbers. 1094 00:55:29,580 --> 00:55:30,420 - No, potential is-- 1095 00:55:30,420 --> 00:55:31,260 - That's what I was-- 1096 00:55:31,260 --> 00:55:32,080 - Well, so-- 1097 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:33,620 - You're talking about just removing this. 1098 00:55:33,620 --> 00:55:35,100 - No, potential is a key word. 1099 00:55:35,100 --> 00:55:37,800 - Well, potential is, a conflict of interest 1100 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,780 is already defined as having the potential to do this. 1101 00:55:41,780 --> 00:55:45,640 So, there can't be a potential, potential. 1102 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:47,940 So, we're saying there's a potential to have a potential 1103 00:55:47,940 --> 00:55:49,340 to have a conflict of interest. 1104 00:55:49,340 --> 00:55:50,300 - I get that. 1105 00:55:50,300 --> 00:55:52,780 - So, we're just removing a potential to cite it. 1106 00:55:52,780 --> 00:55:55,580 'Cause the definition already covers potential. 1107 00:55:55,580 --> 00:55:56,420 So, it-- 1108 00:55:56,420 --> 00:55:58,640 - But our current code does not. 1109 00:55:58,640 --> 00:55:59,480 - No, no, no. 1110 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:00,580 - Yeah, our current code, I see. 1111 00:56:00,580 --> 00:56:02,820 - No, no, I'm saying I'm agreeing with you. 1112 00:56:02,820 --> 00:56:05,180 - So, just take it out, I agree. 1113 00:56:05,180 --> 00:56:06,020 - No, I just-- 1114 00:56:06,020 --> 00:56:07,380 - I said less words, I said that. 1115 00:56:07,380 --> 00:56:08,300 - Yeah. 1116 00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:10,820 This is all about pending matter versus future. 1117 00:56:10,820 --> 00:56:11,660 - Yeah. 1118 00:56:11,660 --> 00:56:17,420 Okay, so, do we need to take a vote on that or are we? 1119 00:56:17,420 --> 00:56:19,600 - No. 1120 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,380 - No, because we're still just editing, right? 1121 00:56:22,380 --> 00:56:23,220 - Okay. 1122 00:56:23,220 --> 00:56:33,980 This second part is that B is where we get into 1123 00:56:33,980 --> 00:56:38,820 consanguinity, which I don't care to have in the code 1124 00:56:38,820 --> 00:56:40,420 because it's something that I think 1125 00:56:40,420 --> 00:56:44,180 most people wouldn't understand. 1126 00:56:44,180 --> 00:56:49,180 So, we are spelling out domestic partner, child, 1127 00:56:49,180 --> 00:56:51,600 parent, member of the household. 1128 00:56:53,060 --> 00:56:57,780 Rather than saying, what, three levels of consanguinity? 1129 00:56:57,780 --> 00:57:01,980 Which, I understand that now because I've been 1130 00:57:01,980 --> 00:57:06,020 adjudicated, but I don't think it's something 1131 00:57:06,020 --> 00:57:07,740 that most people wouldn't understand, 1132 00:57:07,740 --> 00:57:12,060 and I feel like citizens and council members 1133 00:57:12,060 --> 00:57:14,340 and board members who are not lawyers 1134 00:57:14,340 --> 00:57:17,060 should be able to read this, not have to. 1135 00:57:17,060 --> 00:57:22,060 - So, you like B like this, not that word that you just said. 1136 00:57:22,060 --> 00:57:24,580 - That's the way it is in the ARHP code. 1137 00:57:24,580 --> 00:57:25,420 We did that, yeah. 1138 00:57:25,420 --> 00:57:36,340 So, are there any things in this section that you see? 1139 00:57:36,340 --> 00:57:41,940 - I just wanted to double check that member of household 1140 00:57:41,940 --> 00:57:46,940 is defined, right, in the correct, yeah, I saw it. 1141 00:57:46,940 --> 00:57:48,860 I just wanted to double check that. 1142 00:57:53,060 --> 00:57:54,060 - Yeah, okay. 1143 00:57:54,060 --> 00:57:58,500 - And then I believe domestic partners defined as well. 1144 00:57:58,500 --> 00:57:59,340 - Okay. 1145 00:57:59,340 --> 00:58:05,900 Any concerns with that section? 1146 00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:07,420 Okay, we move on. 1147 00:58:07,420 --> 00:58:08,580 - I think two looks good. 1148 00:58:08,580 --> 00:58:11,260 I do have a question about three. 1149 00:58:11,260 --> 00:58:16,740 And forgive me for not knowing 1150 00:58:16,740 --> 00:58:18,880 what our disclosure form looks like yet. 1151 00:58:21,860 --> 00:58:23,620 - This is my biggest concern about it. 1152 00:58:23,620 --> 00:58:26,100 This is from the employee ethics policy. 1153 00:58:26,100 --> 00:58:28,420 It doesn't necessarily make sense 1154 00:58:28,420 --> 00:58:30,220 when you've just replaced any official 1155 00:58:30,220 --> 00:58:34,540 because it's intended for employees. 1156 00:58:34,540 --> 00:58:38,860 So, I think the disclosure, and we have, 1157 00:58:38,860 --> 00:58:43,860 the current code has a disclosure and recusal process, 1158 00:58:43,860 --> 00:58:45,660 which is the pending matter. 1159 00:58:45,660 --> 00:58:51,620 It's basically, I'll see. 1160 00:58:52,420 --> 00:58:57,420 This deliberation prohibited section that's crossed out, 1161 00:58:57,420 --> 00:58:59,660 and that's where it talks about pending matter. 1162 00:58:59,660 --> 00:59:03,500 But basically it's requiring, if there's a pending matter, 1163 00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:05,340 you have to disclose and refuse. 1164 00:59:05,340 --> 00:59:10,020 This is, that's what the pending matter is 1165 00:59:10,020 --> 00:59:11,180 within our current process. 1166 00:59:11,180 --> 00:59:14,340 But it does have a more specific definition 1167 00:59:14,340 --> 00:59:16,980 of conflict of interest, which you discussed 1168 00:59:16,980 --> 00:59:20,520 about these different percentages and things. 1169 00:59:22,460 --> 00:59:24,940 And I can pull up what our abstention of, 1170 00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:27,580 affidavit of abstention form looks like if you would like to. 1171 00:59:27,580 --> 00:59:29,220 - Please, yeah, that's, 1172 00:59:29,220 --> 00:59:36,540 there's an interesting topic that me and Scott fall under, 1173 00:59:36,540 --> 00:59:38,960 and you, soon, very soon. 1174 00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:43,340 And that is whenever there's potential conflict 1175 00:59:43,340 --> 00:59:47,460 with something that our client may have, 1176 00:59:49,220 --> 00:59:54,220 relative, I have a conflict of interest (mumbles) 1177 00:59:54,220 --> 00:59:59,500 Okay, that seems okay on the other, right? 1178 00:59:59,500 --> 01:00:04,500 So if I have a client that has an adverse position 1179 01:00:04,500 --> 01:00:07,980 to something that we discussed on the board, 1180 01:00:07,980 --> 01:00:11,460 I have to abstain from it, I can't. 1181 01:00:11,460 --> 01:00:13,120 And then I can't also disclose that, 1182 01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:14,260 'cause it's attorney-client relationship, 1183 01:00:14,260 --> 01:00:16,980 so as long as I can mark the other. 1184 01:00:16,980 --> 01:00:19,060 And I know we have, what, two attorneys, I think, 1185 01:00:19,060 --> 01:00:21,500 on our city council, so we've got attorneys 1186 01:00:21,500 --> 01:00:25,940 throughout our city governance that are affected 1187 01:00:25,940 --> 01:00:27,600 by this disclosure requirement. 1188 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:33,540 - So this is our current form. 1189 01:00:33,540 --> 01:00:36,180 I think if we updated the conflict of interest section, 1190 01:00:36,180 --> 01:00:38,860 this would need to be updated in some extent as well. 1191 01:00:38,860 --> 01:00:39,700 - Okay. 1192 01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:45,140 Okay, can we, so are we okay with that section, 1193 01:00:45,140 --> 01:00:48,180 and ready to move on? 1194 01:00:48,180 --> 01:00:51,700 - I'm sorry, I'm just pushing it, but I'm not trying to-- 1195 01:00:51,700 --> 01:00:53,140 - I mean, there's parts of this-- 1196 01:00:53,140 --> 01:00:54,460 - It still says employee-- 1197 01:00:54,460 --> 01:00:56,220 - It needs to be cleaned up. 1198 01:00:56,220 --> 01:01:02,620 Just clean it up to-- 1199 01:01:02,620 --> 01:01:04,700 - Where it says, if a conflict is identified, 1200 01:01:04,700 --> 01:01:08,900 the employee will be refused from any decision-making. 1201 01:01:08,900 --> 01:01:11,260 Doesn't need to be city official. 1202 01:01:11,260 --> 01:01:12,900 - Right, yeah. 1203 01:01:12,900 --> 01:01:16,220 - Some of this, I agree, doesn't make a whole lot of sense 1204 01:01:16,220 --> 01:01:18,300 if it's targeting about purchasing. 1205 01:01:18,300 --> 01:01:21,660 - Well, both of those last, those two sentences 1206 01:01:21,660 --> 01:01:24,740 refer to employment, right? 1207 01:01:24,740 --> 01:01:29,740 - Would this be something we could refer to a committee, 1208 01:01:29,740 --> 01:01:33,060 and then, you know, the three of us, or whatever, 1209 01:01:33,060 --> 01:01:37,500 just go through and clean it, make it nice and pretty, 1210 01:01:37,500 --> 01:01:40,140 so that we can actually take an affirmative vote on it? 1211 01:01:40,140 --> 01:01:42,540 - I would love to do that. 1212 01:01:42,540 --> 01:01:46,020 - That's a parliamentarian question. 1213 01:01:46,020 --> 01:01:48,140 - I'll look into it, 'cause I don't know 1214 01:01:48,140 --> 01:01:50,700 if y'all have the power to create a committee, 1215 01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:54,620 the council might be able to create a committee for you, 1216 01:01:54,620 --> 01:01:55,460 but I don't-- 1217 01:01:55,460 --> 01:02:00,140 - Would it be too much to ask the staff 1218 01:02:00,140 --> 01:02:03,780 to make a recommendation on how to clean that up? 1219 01:02:03,780 --> 01:02:06,420 - I mean, my recommendation wouldn't be 1220 01:02:06,420 --> 01:02:09,380 to use the current disclosure process. 1221 01:02:09,380 --> 01:02:10,220 - Okay. 1222 01:02:10,220 --> 01:02:12,860 - Which includes the pending matter definition, 1223 01:02:12,860 --> 01:02:17,100 which can be updated, but the pending matter 1224 01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:22,100 is essentially replacing this section right here, 1225 01:02:22,100 --> 01:02:24,460 because, well, this would normally, 1226 01:02:24,460 --> 01:02:26,700 in the employee policy, this is employees, right, 1227 01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:28,740 so employees involved in purchase of goods 1228 01:02:28,740 --> 01:02:31,620 are required to submit a disclosure. 1229 01:02:31,620 --> 01:02:33,980 Basically, you're taking purchase of goods 1230 01:02:33,980 --> 01:02:35,380 and making it pending matter, 1231 01:02:35,380 --> 01:02:38,900 and then that's what our current section does, 1232 01:02:38,900 --> 01:02:40,780 that's the disclosure requirement. 1233 01:02:40,780 --> 01:02:43,100 It's this right here. 1234 01:02:43,100 --> 01:02:47,300 You have a conflicting interest in a pending matter, 1235 01:02:47,300 --> 01:02:51,340 you have to disclose it and recuse yourself. 1236 01:02:51,340 --> 01:02:53,020 That's up here somewhere. 1237 01:02:53,020 --> 01:02:54,500 Delivery is prohibited. 1238 01:02:54,500 --> 01:02:58,700 So this, delivery is prohibited, disclosure required, 1239 01:02:58,700 --> 01:03:00,900 those two sections are doing the same thing 1240 01:03:00,900 --> 01:03:01,940 that this is doing. 1241 01:03:01,940 --> 01:03:06,700 It's just one is for city officials currently. 1242 01:03:08,860 --> 01:03:12,580 - My problem with pending matter is in very narrow ways 1243 01:03:12,580 --> 01:03:14,140 defined in our glossary. 1244 01:03:14,140 --> 01:03:17,940 But that language-- - We could change 1245 01:03:17,940 --> 01:03:19,420 the definition. 1246 01:03:19,420 --> 01:03:23,700 - That language doesn't appear in any other code nowhere. 1247 01:03:23,700 --> 01:03:24,540 - No. 1248 01:03:24,540 --> 01:03:28,700 - I mean, what's written there in the deliberation 1249 01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:32,580 program in the section that's struck out 1250 01:03:32,580 --> 01:03:36,940 would be perfect for this if we can either remove 1251 01:03:36,940 --> 01:03:40,940 or replace pending matter, 1252 01:03:40,940 --> 01:03:42,820 'cause I think that's what you're most concerned with 1253 01:03:42,820 --> 01:03:46,980 since it is right now, there is a pending matter 1254 01:03:46,980 --> 01:03:51,100 before a council or whatever that I think 1255 01:03:51,100 --> 01:03:53,580 where you're concerned with it. 1256 01:03:53,580 --> 01:03:57,540 - So keep it that way, but just take out pending matter? 1257 01:03:57,540 --> 01:03:59,100 - Yeah, I don't know if it needs to be taken out 1258 01:03:59,100 --> 01:04:01,700 or replaced with something else. 1259 01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:04,540 We're redefining the conflict of interest. 1260 01:04:04,540 --> 01:04:08,300 - Pending matter, if a person has a current 1261 01:04:08,300 --> 01:04:11,140 conflicting interest without any pending matter, 1262 01:04:11,140 --> 01:04:15,220 must recuse themselves. 1263 01:04:15,220 --> 01:04:17,220 Just take it out. 1264 01:04:17,220 --> 01:04:20,780 - 'Cause it's almost like saying the same thing twice. 1265 01:04:20,780 --> 01:04:24,460 - Well, pending matter narrows it so badly 1266 01:04:24,460 --> 01:04:28,820 that you could abstain from a vote 1267 01:04:28,820 --> 01:04:32,460 and the very next day you could do whatever's unethical, 1268 01:04:32,460 --> 01:04:34,380 just the way it is defined in our code. 1269 01:04:34,380 --> 01:04:38,780 And this has been pointed out to me by citizens, 1270 01:04:38,780 --> 01:04:43,780 by voters not, so it's a pending matter language. 1271 01:04:43,780 --> 01:04:47,500 - Adding this part, would make doing that 1272 01:04:47,500 --> 01:04:49,580 what you're discussing a violation still? 1273 01:04:49,580 --> 01:04:52,820 Is that it? 1274 01:04:52,820 --> 01:04:53,660 - Okay. 1275 01:04:53,660 --> 01:04:58,660 - If we have that definition of conflict of interest, 1276 01:04:58,660 --> 01:05:01,500 take the language that's already in our ethics code 1277 01:05:01,500 --> 01:05:04,780 for deliberations prohibited and replace 1278 01:05:04,780 --> 01:05:07,260 conflicting interest in a pending matter 1279 01:05:07,260 --> 01:05:11,260 with conflict of interest that we just redefined, 1280 01:05:11,260 --> 01:05:14,780 it cleans that up and makes it so the language in this 1281 01:05:14,780 --> 01:05:20,780 is correct for a city official and not for an employee. 1282 01:05:20,780 --> 01:05:25,460 That's where that new section for disclosure and recusal, 1283 01:05:25,460 --> 01:05:28,100 not following some of that, some of it doesn't apply. 1284 01:05:29,140 --> 01:05:32,740 Some of it doesn't make sense, so it almost would make 1285 01:05:32,740 --> 01:05:36,020 more sense to use that language and just replace 1286 01:05:36,020 --> 01:05:38,300 conflicting interest in a pending matter 1287 01:05:38,300 --> 01:05:39,860 with conflict of interest. 1288 01:05:39,860 --> 01:05:40,700 - A conflict of interest. 1289 01:05:40,700 --> 01:05:42,420 - Because that's defined. 1290 01:05:42,420 --> 01:05:45,260 There's a new definition for that that I think is, 1291 01:05:45,260 --> 01:05:47,260 like that's what we're trying to get to. 1292 01:05:47,260 --> 01:05:50,260 Does that make sense? 1293 01:05:50,260 --> 01:05:53,020 - I believe so. 1294 01:05:53,020 --> 01:05:57,220 And I can bring that back to make it a little clearer. 1295 01:05:57,220 --> 01:05:58,140 - That sounds good. 1296 01:05:59,460 --> 01:06:00,700 - That would be awesome. 1297 01:06:00,700 --> 01:06:05,140 - So Dustin, what you are proposing is to take 1298 01:06:05,140 --> 01:06:07,820 the words pending matter out? 1299 01:06:07,820 --> 01:06:09,420 - In a pending matter. 1300 01:06:09,420 --> 01:06:10,980 - Yeah, I'm saying. 1301 01:06:10,980 --> 01:06:14,820 - If you just take that out, it just, 1302 01:06:14,820 --> 01:06:17,340 it's coming out of interest, yeah. 1303 01:06:17,340 --> 01:06:19,140 - So you would take out? 1304 01:06:19,140 --> 01:06:21,500 - I would take out regarding a pending matter. 1305 01:06:21,500 --> 01:06:25,980 - Move that and then add a conflict of interest 1306 01:06:25,980 --> 01:06:28,460 which is then redefined. 1307 01:06:28,460 --> 01:06:29,300 - Yes. 1308 01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:30,140 - Yes. 1309 01:06:30,140 --> 01:06:30,980 - Okay. 1310 01:06:30,980 --> 01:06:33,940 - I think that makes more sense and is the purpose 1311 01:06:33,940 --> 01:06:38,620 of these modifications is to be able to apply 1312 01:06:38,620 --> 01:06:41,620 that definition rather than the weird pending matter. 1313 01:06:41,620 --> 01:06:45,260 - It would broaden the interest of the more clear. 1314 01:06:45,260 --> 01:06:47,620 - Pending matter to expand on our list. 1315 01:06:47,620 --> 01:06:51,100 - This would correct that. 1316 01:06:51,100 --> 01:06:54,180 But the language and the deliberation prohibited, 1317 01:06:54,180 --> 01:06:56,180 other than that conflicting interest 1318 01:06:56,180 --> 01:06:59,860 in a pending matter part makes more sense for this, 1319 01:06:59,860 --> 01:07:00,700 for city officials. 1320 01:07:00,700 --> 01:07:03,940 - Take out four little words and I think it's fine. 1321 01:07:03,940 --> 01:07:08,940 - Yeah, I think it's in there twice in those two sentences. 1322 01:07:08,940 --> 01:07:12,940 But I think if we do that, then we get to what 1323 01:07:12,940 --> 01:07:17,940 we're trying to get to, which is making this not a, 1324 01:07:17,940 --> 01:07:24,020 like a moment in time. 1325 01:07:24,020 --> 01:07:28,180 - The pending matter in that pending matter, it's fine. 1326 01:07:28,180 --> 01:07:29,020 It broadens it. 1327 01:07:29,020 --> 01:07:34,060 - I believe I, so update this section. 1328 01:07:34,060 --> 01:07:36,180 So this would stay in, but we would update it 1329 01:07:36,180 --> 01:07:39,700 to sort of have an pending matter in a conflicting interest. 1330 01:07:39,700 --> 01:07:41,660 It would just be a conflict of interest. 1331 01:07:41,660 --> 01:07:42,500 - Right. 1332 01:07:42,500 --> 01:07:47,140 - I would say that the next paragraph for disclosure 1333 01:07:47,140 --> 01:07:48,940 requires the same thing there. 1334 01:07:48,940 --> 01:07:53,620 'Cause it's the, I mean, it's the language 1335 01:07:53,620 --> 01:07:56,020 we want in there, we just need to fix the conflicting 1336 01:07:56,020 --> 01:07:57,580 interest in the pending matter thing. 1337 01:07:57,580 --> 01:07:58,620 So it's not a-- 1338 01:07:58,620 --> 01:08:01,060 - Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it otherwise. 1339 01:08:01,060 --> 01:08:02,060 - Yeah. 1340 01:08:02,060 --> 01:08:02,900 - So. 1341 01:08:02,900 --> 01:08:05,300 - I have a question, just for clarity. 1342 01:08:05,300 --> 01:08:10,300 So when we're drafting, so pending matter right now, 1343 01:08:10,300 --> 01:08:16,220 it's telling, saying that you're accusing yourself 1344 01:08:16,220 --> 01:08:18,580 from a situation, city officials are accusing themselves 1345 01:08:18,580 --> 01:08:23,140 from a situation where they have decision-making authority. 1346 01:08:23,140 --> 01:08:26,420 That's what pending matter is trying to cover. 1347 01:08:26,420 --> 01:08:29,700 If we remove that and we replace it with this definition 1348 01:08:29,700 --> 01:08:33,180 of conflict of interest, which says a situation 1349 01:08:33,180 --> 01:08:35,220 in which personal or financial considerations 1350 01:08:35,220 --> 01:08:37,780 actually have or may have the potential to influence, 1351 01:08:37,780 --> 01:08:43,660 is there a specific type of, 'cause we're saying 1352 01:08:43,660 --> 01:08:46,180 the city official has to recuse themselves 1353 01:08:46,180 --> 01:08:48,220 in a conflict of interest, and conflict of interest 1354 01:08:48,220 --> 01:08:50,700 is defined as a situation. 1355 01:08:50,700 --> 01:08:53,700 (overlapping chatter) 1356 01:08:53,700 --> 01:08:57,180 What situations are y'all thinking you want to be 1357 01:08:57,180 --> 01:09:00,460 roped into that, 'cause I think it's kind of tough 1358 01:09:00,460 --> 01:09:05,220 to imagine, there are lots of situations where someone 1359 01:09:05,220 --> 01:09:08,660 might not be using their city official power, 1360 01:09:08,660 --> 01:09:10,700 but might still fall under this definition. 1361 01:09:10,700 --> 01:09:13,940 - But if they're not using their city official power, 1362 01:09:13,940 --> 01:09:16,460 then it would be a conflict of interest. 1363 01:09:16,460 --> 01:09:18,860 - Well, that's what I'm asking, is y'all are defining 1364 01:09:18,860 --> 01:09:19,860 conflict of interest. 1365 01:09:19,860 --> 01:09:21,940 I think that would broaden it enough 1366 01:09:21,940 --> 01:09:24,860 that if somebody's doing something behind the scenes, 1367 01:09:24,860 --> 01:09:28,300 that would be covered, and it should be. 1368 01:09:28,300 --> 01:09:35,980 If you think about conflict of interest 1369 01:09:35,980 --> 01:09:39,580 as advancing something that's gonna benefit you 1370 01:09:39,580 --> 01:09:44,100 and not everybody else, then that's-- 1371 01:09:44,100 --> 01:09:45,940 - Maybe I might be misunderstanding. 1372 01:09:45,940 --> 01:09:48,420 I think maybe Scott is talking about people do things 1373 01:09:48,420 --> 01:09:51,460 that could be considered a conflict of interest 1374 01:09:51,460 --> 01:09:54,780 under the definition of benefiting yourself all the time. 1375 01:09:54,780 --> 01:09:58,860 It's just in the, we're specifically trying to regulate 1376 01:09:58,860 --> 01:10:02,020 in the context of using your official city board, 1377 01:10:02,020 --> 01:10:06,980 is my understanding, so maybe we can add language 1378 01:10:06,980 --> 01:10:11,860 around that, because I mean, like going and doing 1379 01:10:11,860 --> 01:10:15,020 a business deal is something, but if it has nothing 1380 01:10:15,020 --> 01:10:16,980 to do with city business, then we're not trying 1381 01:10:16,980 --> 01:10:19,380 to regulate that. - Oh, no, absolutely not. 1382 01:10:19,380 --> 01:10:20,660 - Is that what you're talking about, Scott? 1383 01:10:20,660 --> 01:10:21,500 - Yeah. - Yeah. 1384 01:10:21,500 --> 01:10:25,140 - You say conflict of interest is official city business? 1385 01:10:25,140 --> 01:10:32,020 Instead of, you could maybe have instead of situation. 1386 01:10:32,020 --> 01:10:37,780 - I guess I'm trying to suggest rewriting this, 1387 01:10:37,780 --> 01:10:42,780 asking if that's, if that actually covers the things 1388 01:10:42,780 --> 01:10:44,900 y'all are thinking, y'all are talking about, 1389 01:10:44,900 --> 01:10:47,580 because this is pulled from the rules that govern us 1390 01:10:47,580 --> 01:10:51,180 as employees, this employee ethics policy is really broad 1391 01:10:51,180 --> 01:10:55,180 because we have a lot of rules about what we're allowed 1392 01:10:55,180 --> 01:10:57,540 to do, both at and away from work. 1393 01:10:57,540 --> 01:10:58,980 We can't have certain things like we have to have 1394 01:10:58,980 --> 01:11:01,660 our secondary employment approved by, 1395 01:11:01,660 --> 01:11:06,100 everyone on city council has a different job, 1396 01:11:06,100 --> 01:11:08,700 and nobody who works, very few people who work 1397 01:11:08,700 --> 01:11:11,020 for the city have a different job. 1398 01:11:11,020 --> 01:11:14,380 The little things like that where it covers situations 1399 01:11:14,380 --> 01:11:18,020 that might be challenging for a city council member 1400 01:11:18,020 --> 01:11:19,780 or a board of ethics member. 1401 01:11:19,780 --> 01:11:25,660 But I just, so, but again, if y'all are okay with it, 1402 01:11:25,660 --> 01:11:28,740 then I understand, but I just, I think that y'all are here 1403 01:11:28,740 --> 01:11:32,020 in taking away the specificity of any matter. 1404 01:11:32,020 --> 01:11:35,180 - It sounds like if we added something to the end 1405 01:11:35,180 --> 01:11:40,180 of that first sentence, so compromised professional 1406 01:11:41,220 --> 01:11:45,900 judgment or actions in there, when acting in their capacity 1407 01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:47,020 as a city official. 1408 01:11:47,020 --> 01:11:51,980 - And deliberating city business, or? 1409 01:11:51,980 --> 01:11:55,100 - And deliberating city business, I like that. 1410 01:11:55,100 --> 01:11:58,580 - Something along those lines, just so that it's, 1411 01:11:58,580 --> 01:12:04,820 so that our city code of ethics applied to city officials 1412 01:12:04,820 --> 01:12:09,820 is applied to their actions when acting as a city official. 1413 01:12:11,780 --> 01:12:16,780 - So Scott, your interpretation of pending matter 1414 01:12:16,780 --> 01:12:24,760 means that it is a matter that is actually city business. 1415 01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,980 - Believe it, it's a matter that's pending 1416 01:12:28,980 --> 01:12:30,940 before the board that person's on. 1417 01:12:30,940 --> 01:12:35,940 - And I think that our concern is the pending part, 1418 01:12:35,940 --> 01:12:40,460 because we would like to cover, we would like to cover 1419 01:12:40,460 --> 01:12:44,940 things that are not just immediately pending right now, 1420 01:12:44,940 --> 01:12:47,780 but be broader in that sense. 1421 01:12:47,780 --> 01:12:50,820 But I think, I would agree, we need to make sure 1422 01:12:50,820 --> 01:12:54,740 that the language that we are including only 1423 01:12:54,740 --> 01:12:59,740 is applicable to city business, rather than. 1424 01:12:59,740 --> 01:13:05,980 - Yeah, I like what Dustin said about adding that, 1425 01:13:05,980 --> 01:13:09,420 that at the end of the sentence to where it would be, 1426 01:13:09,420 --> 01:13:14,420 so the conflict of interest arises when a person, 1427 01:13:14,420 --> 01:13:17,440 when a personal and/or financial consideration 1428 01:13:17,440 --> 01:13:22,440 actually influences, or have the potential to influence 1429 01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:26,020 the judgment or action of an individual 1430 01:13:26,020 --> 01:13:29,560 in their official capacity as a city official. 1431 01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:31,100 - Or their deliberations. 1432 01:13:31,100 --> 01:13:32,540 - Or their deliberations, yeah. 1433 01:13:32,540 --> 01:13:34,380 - I like that too. 1434 01:13:34,380 --> 01:13:36,020 Yeah, that would cover it. 1435 01:13:36,020 --> 01:13:36,860 - Yeah. 1436 01:13:37,820 --> 01:13:40,020 - But then it's really clear, it's not. 1437 01:13:40,020 --> 01:13:41,240 - That's a good catch, Scott. 1438 01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:42,340 That one little word there. 1439 01:13:42,340 --> 01:13:43,160 - Yeah. 1440 01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:58,500 - Update that, I'll go back and look at the tape. 1441 01:13:58,500 --> 01:14:00,860 (laughing) 1442 01:14:00,860 --> 01:14:02,060 I didn't catch all that, but. 1443 01:14:02,060 --> 01:14:02,880 - Yeah. 1444 01:14:05,860 --> 01:14:07,860 - So that seems like everybody's generally-- 1445 01:14:07,860 --> 01:14:10,020 - Yeah, I think we're in agreement about that. 1446 01:14:10,020 --> 01:14:12,660 - I think we're all gonna catch everybody. 1447 01:14:12,660 --> 01:14:14,380 So, okay. 1448 01:14:14,380 --> 01:14:15,840 So, move on. 1449 01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:22,980 - So the proposal also included 1450 01:14:22,980 --> 01:14:27,100 in adding this private interest section. 1451 01:14:27,100 --> 01:14:30,380 Based on my review of comparing that 1452 01:14:30,380 --> 01:14:31,780 to what's already in the ordinance, 1453 01:14:31,780 --> 01:14:35,340 a lot of it is already covered, to some extent. 1454 01:14:35,340 --> 01:14:37,660 - Awesome, maybe just take it out. 1455 01:14:37,660 --> 01:14:40,340 - So I don't know, I think it depends 1456 01:14:40,340 --> 01:14:43,980 on if you want it here or if you want to just keep 1457 01:14:43,980 --> 01:14:45,620 what we've been using. 1458 01:14:45,620 --> 01:14:55,340 Like representation of others, I think, 1459 01:14:55,340 --> 01:14:57,940 is a little more specific to city officials versus. 1460 01:14:57,940 --> 01:15:03,780 - You know, as long as we take pending matter out 1461 01:15:03,780 --> 01:15:07,060 with being clear on the other stuff we talked about, 1462 01:15:07,060 --> 01:15:10,340 I don't think some of the other stuff has to be changed. 1463 01:15:10,340 --> 01:15:13,220 - I'm just gonna try it again, I don't think one-- 1464 01:15:13,220 --> 01:15:18,220 - As long as we are clear about the conflict 1465 01:15:18,220 --> 01:15:22,020 and the pending matter being gone 1466 01:15:22,020 --> 01:15:24,980 and adding the deliberation 1467 01:15:24,980 --> 01:15:27,420 and the acting in official capacity, 1468 01:15:27,420 --> 01:15:29,740 I think the other stuff's fine. 1469 01:15:29,740 --> 01:15:32,340 What I did not like was all the numbers and-- 1470 01:15:32,340 --> 01:15:34,700 - Yeah, I think, well, from what I can tell, 1471 01:15:34,700 --> 01:15:37,260 a lot of this is already covered in the ordinance. 1472 01:15:37,260 --> 01:15:41,580 - Okay, so I would recommend not putting it, 1473 01:15:41,580 --> 01:15:43,700 just take it out, okay? 1474 01:15:43,700 --> 01:15:44,900 - You're talking about this-- 1475 01:15:44,900 --> 01:15:46,540 - All those percentage things. 1476 01:15:46,540 --> 01:15:47,380 - Yeah. 1477 01:15:47,380 --> 01:15:50,980 - What are you talking about? 1478 01:15:50,980 --> 01:15:52,260 Are you talking about this paragraph? 1479 01:15:52,260 --> 01:15:54,140 - This four, private section. 1480 01:15:54,140 --> 01:15:58,500 - Yeah, I don't recall I ever have any discussion 1481 01:15:58,500 --> 01:16:00,540 about these sections that are already in the ordinance 1482 01:16:00,540 --> 01:16:03,340 that cover most of that. 1483 01:16:03,340 --> 01:16:05,220 I don't think there's ever been any real concerns 1484 01:16:05,220 --> 01:16:06,060 about most of it. 1485 01:16:06,060 --> 01:16:09,860 - Okay, so everybody in agreement? 1486 01:16:09,860 --> 01:16:10,700 - Yes. 1487 01:16:10,700 --> 01:16:11,820 - So strike. 1488 01:16:11,820 --> 01:16:14,580 - Okay. 1489 01:16:14,580 --> 01:16:18,820 Let's see what you think. 1490 01:16:18,820 --> 01:16:22,940 And then, so a lot of the rest is what? 1491 01:16:22,940 --> 01:16:24,340 This is the whole part. 1492 01:16:24,340 --> 01:16:30,380 There was a question about if peace are still relevant. 1493 01:16:31,540 --> 01:16:33,340 There's not, there wasn't a replacement, 1494 01:16:33,340 --> 01:16:34,820 so I believe this is still relevant. 1495 01:16:34,820 --> 01:16:35,940 - Yep. 1496 01:16:35,940 --> 01:16:40,940 - This is only relevant to the four appointed employees, 1497 01:16:40,940 --> 01:16:45,700 so I don't recommend anything like that either. 1498 01:16:45,700 --> 01:16:49,340 Again, this is not something we've ever had an issue with, 1499 01:16:49,340 --> 01:16:50,180 I don't believe. 1500 01:16:50,180 --> 01:16:56,060 Some of this was, again, covered in the private interest, 1501 01:16:56,060 --> 01:16:57,820 but it's already in here, basically. 1502 01:17:01,060 --> 01:17:04,540 Okay, yeah, and then I think, 1503 01:17:04,540 --> 01:17:09,540 so that covers these first three members. 1504 01:17:09,540 --> 01:17:15,380 Okay, then there's the burden of proof discussion. 1505 01:17:15,380 --> 01:17:18,140 There was a suggestion to remove the duty to report. 1506 01:17:18,140 --> 01:17:23,940 And then this process with board members 1507 01:17:23,940 --> 01:17:27,740 to potentially select the ethics board members, 1508 01:17:27,740 --> 01:17:32,020 new ethics board members, so that's what this is doing. 1509 01:17:32,020 --> 01:17:37,220 I don't know how legal that is, honestly, 1510 01:17:37,220 --> 01:17:40,140 because of the way that the charter 1511 01:17:40,140 --> 01:17:42,260 imbues power to the city council. 1512 01:17:42,260 --> 01:17:47,020 - I was dreaming at that point. 1513 01:17:47,020 --> 01:17:49,100 I had to let it go, yeah. 1514 01:17:49,100 --> 01:17:51,780 - I thought I read somewhere that a person could apply 1515 01:17:51,780 --> 01:17:56,780 to be a member of a board without being asked to. 1516 01:17:56,940 --> 01:17:57,780 - You can't. 1517 01:17:57,780 --> 01:18:01,700 - You can apply, but you would still need to be approved 1518 01:18:01,700 --> 01:18:03,860 by the city council, correct. 1519 01:18:03,860 --> 01:18:06,260 - You still have to be, you can apply, 1520 01:18:06,260 --> 01:18:09,180 you can generally apply to be on any board, 1521 01:18:09,180 --> 01:18:12,340 but you still have to be appointed by a council member. 1522 01:18:12,340 --> 01:18:15,020 So I was not asked to apply. 1523 01:18:15,020 --> 01:18:17,100 I applied and went on to the board, 1524 01:18:17,100 --> 01:18:19,780 and then was nominated by-- 1525 01:18:19,780 --> 01:18:23,820 - Let that go, are you guys okay with that? 1526 01:18:23,820 --> 01:18:24,660 - Yes. 1527 01:18:25,940 --> 01:18:27,900 - Before we get to the burden of proof, 1528 01:18:27,900 --> 01:18:30,460 do we want to talk about the duty to report section? 1529 01:18:30,460 --> 01:18:38,980 I mean, the suggestion was just to remove it, I think. 1530 01:18:38,980 --> 01:18:40,980 So that's the discussion. 1531 01:18:40,980 --> 01:18:42,220 I would not recommend that, 1532 01:18:42,220 --> 01:18:45,660 but that's the discussion for you all right now. 1533 01:18:45,660 --> 01:18:48,300 - Yeah, I don't think we should remove, 1534 01:18:48,300 --> 01:18:50,060 I think the whole thing was revolved around 1535 01:18:50,060 --> 01:18:53,060 that last sentence of the anonymous. 1536 01:18:53,060 --> 01:18:57,220 - Let that go, aren't you guys okay with that? 1537 01:18:57,220 --> 01:19:00,220 - Yeah, I think it should be just the last sentence. 1538 01:19:00,220 --> 01:19:02,460 - Yeah, and we'll come back with research on that. 1539 01:19:02,460 --> 01:19:03,740 - Yeah. 1540 01:19:03,740 --> 01:19:06,540 - How it can confidential complaints 1541 01:19:06,540 --> 01:19:08,340 line up with the open records act. 1542 01:19:08,340 --> 01:19:13,340 - So now we're on to the burden of proof, 1543 01:19:13,340 --> 01:19:19,580 I believe that's the last-- - The burden of proof, yeah. 1544 01:19:23,180 --> 01:19:25,940 (paper rustling) 1545 01:19:25,940 --> 01:19:30,300 - I will just say burden of proof 1546 01:19:30,300 --> 01:19:35,300 is not placed on the complainant anywhere 1547 01:19:35,300 --> 01:19:37,420 in any code I've ever written, 1548 01:19:37,420 --> 01:19:40,140 either in the state or nationally. 1549 01:19:40,140 --> 01:19:43,660 We do have an evidentiary hearing 1550 01:19:43,660 --> 01:19:46,140 and the complaint has to be there. 1551 01:19:46,140 --> 01:19:48,860 So don't know why we have to say it. 1552 01:19:48,860 --> 01:19:50,220 I think it's just one more thing 1553 01:19:50,220 --> 01:19:53,580 that has a chilling effect for people 1554 01:19:53,580 --> 01:19:57,020 who might want to file a complaint 1555 01:19:57,020 --> 01:20:00,020 or might have grounds to file a complaint. 1556 01:20:00,020 --> 01:20:03,620 So I wanna hear what the rest of you think. 1557 01:20:03,620 --> 01:20:05,380 - I agree that it's not necessary 1558 01:20:05,380 --> 01:20:08,260 since evidentiary hearing implies 1559 01:20:08,260 --> 01:20:09,980 they're gonna provide evidence 1560 01:20:09,980 --> 01:20:12,380 and if they don't provide evidence 1561 01:20:12,380 --> 01:20:15,700 then it would be baseless or frivolous. 1562 01:20:15,700 --> 01:20:19,020 - So who has to establish the complaint? 1563 01:20:19,980 --> 01:20:23,900 Or is it on the person complained of 1564 01:20:23,900 --> 01:20:26,260 to establish their defense? 1565 01:20:26,260 --> 01:20:28,500 - It would be on both sides actually. 1566 01:20:28,500 --> 01:20:30,980 - The way it is right now, 1567 01:20:30,980 --> 01:20:33,380 the complainant has to fill out a form 1568 01:20:33,380 --> 01:20:35,100 and provide evidence 1569 01:20:35,100 --> 01:20:39,100 and once that is administratively complete 1570 01:20:39,100 --> 01:20:41,540 that means there is evidence that's clearly, 1571 01:20:41,540 --> 01:20:44,060 whatever the violation is of our ordinance 1572 01:20:44,060 --> 01:20:47,340 is called out in the complaint 1573 01:20:47,340 --> 01:20:50,780 and there is some evidence that that did occur 1574 01:20:50,780 --> 01:20:52,700 then that goes to a, 1575 01:20:52,700 --> 01:20:55,980 once that is established it's complete. 1576 01:20:55,980 --> 01:20:58,620 Then it goes to a three member panel 1577 01:20:58,620 --> 01:21:01,820 and those three members look at that complaint 1578 01:21:01,820 --> 01:21:03,540 and say, all right, well if this did occur 1579 01:21:03,540 --> 01:21:05,820 this is potentially a violation of-- 1580 01:21:05,820 --> 01:21:07,820 - If they determine it's actionable 1581 01:21:07,820 --> 01:21:11,340 then the complainant has to show up. 1582 01:21:11,340 --> 01:21:14,540 - Yeah, and the way-- - So it's implied but-- 1583 01:21:14,540 --> 01:21:17,020 - The way it is set up right now is that 1584 01:21:17,020 --> 01:21:19,140 at, once it gets past that point 1585 01:21:19,140 --> 01:21:20,980 it goes to the entire board. 1586 01:21:20,980 --> 01:21:24,140 The complainant and the respondent have to be there 1587 01:21:24,140 --> 01:21:27,420 and because of this burden approved section 1588 01:21:27,420 --> 01:21:30,300 it is almost like up to the complainant 1589 01:21:30,300 --> 01:21:32,500 to act as a prosecutor. 1590 01:21:32,500 --> 01:21:37,500 And our, in the past, since I've been on the board 1591 01:21:37,500 --> 01:21:41,380 that has been a huge concern by every board member that, 1592 01:21:41,380 --> 01:21:43,500 I mean if I'm, 1593 01:21:43,500 --> 01:21:46,180 I'm not gonna submit a complaint 1594 01:21:46,180 --> 01:21:48,460 if I'm just a citizen of Denton 1595 01:21:48,460 --> 01:21:50,180 and I'm concerned about something 1596 01:21:50,180 --> 01:21:51,900 because I'm not a lawyer 1597 01:21:51,900 --> 01:21:54,300 and I don't wanna get in front of 1598 01:21:54,300 --> 01:21:56,180 a panel of ethics members, 1599 01:21:56,180 --> 01:21:58,060 a council member or a board member 1600 01:21:58,060 --> 01:22:00,700 that I'm making a complaint about 1601 01:22:00,700 --> 01:22:03,380 just because I think they violated the ethics ordinance 1602 01:22:03,380 --> 01:22:05,780 like it's not my role to try them 1603 01:22:05,780 --> 01:22:08,180 or to prosecute them. 1604 01:22:08,180 --> 01:22:12,540 I've provided evidence and I've completed the process. 1605 01:22:12,540 --> 01:22:15,300 It should now be up to the board to review that 1606 01:22:15,300 --> 01:22:17,100 and then make a determination 1607 01:22:17,100 --> 01:22:19,740 and it should be up to the respondent to say 1608 01:22:19,740 --> 01:22:21,540 either I did not do this, 1609 01:22:21,540 --> 01:22:23,660 here's evidence that I did not do this 1610 01:22:23,660 --> 01:22:25,700 or explain to the board members 1611 01:22:25,700 --> 01:22:29,500 why this is not a violation of ethics ordinance. 1612 01:22:29,500 --> 01:22:34,500 So I think our intention has been 1613 01:22:34,500 --> 01:22:37,220 we want to make it so that 1614 01:22:37,220 --> 01:22:41,180 if as a private citizen who is not in politics 1615 01:22:41,180 --> 01:22:46,020 or not an employee of the city or something like that, 1616 01:22:46,020 --> 01:22:49,660 we wanna make it so that if they feel there is a violation, 1617 01:22:49,660 --> 01:22:50,980 they can make a complaint 1618 01:22:50,980 --> 01:22:54,500 and then as long as they've done their part 1619 01:22:54,500 --> 01:22:57,020 of going through the process 1620 01:22:57,020 --> 01:23:00,220 of making the complaint correctly and completely, 1621 01:23:00,220 --> 01:23:05,220 they are no longer required to act as a prosecutor. 1622 01:23:05,220 --> 01:23:10,180 That's, I mean, to me this has been like one of the things 1623 01:23:10,180 --> 01:23:13,180 since I've been on the board that I've just been like this, 1624 01:23:13,180 --> 01:23:16,500 this doesn't feel like this is a good way to-- 1625 01:23:16,500 --> 01:23:18,580 - Shifts the focus to the complainants. 1626 01:23:18,580 --> 01:23:22,140 - Yeah, and there will be times where we-- 1627 01:23:22,140 --> 01:23:23,780 - I know David's been trying to say something. 1628 01:23:23,780 --> 01:23:25,180 - No, that's what I don't wanna-- 1629 01:23:25,180 --> 01:23:29,780 - I will throw out that we have worked on putting in a, 1630 01:23:29,780 --> 01:23:34,140 putting in a section to the ordinance 1631 01:23:34,140 --> 01:23:37,140 to address frivolous complaints 1632 01:23:37,140 --> 01:23:41,780 because that, I think that some of this was 1633 01:23:41,780 --> 01:23:45,240 to combat a bunch of frivolous complaints 1634 01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:49,300 and we worked on some language so that now we can, 1635 01:23:49,300 --> 01:23:54,020 we can deal with that a little bit differently 1636 01:23:54,020 --> 01:23:56,340 than we have in the past where it's kinda like 1637 01:23:56,340 --> 01:23:58,980 there's no team to that. 1638 01:23:58,980 --> 01:23:59,980 - I think that that's a cheat. 1639 01:23:59,980 --> 01:24:01,100 - Yeah, sorry. 1640 01:24:01,100 --> 01:24:03,260 - No, no, no, no, I'm fine, I'm listening. 1641 01:24:03,260 --> 01:24:06,620 No, we have discussed this at length more than once 1642 01:24:06,620 --> 01:24:08,260 and this burden of proof, 1643 01:24:08,260 --> 01:24:10,220 placing this on a citizen complaint. 1644 01:24:10,220 --> 01:24:13,780 They don't have, we've discussed all the drawbacks here. 1645 01:24:13,780 --> 01:24:16,580 They don't have the investigatory tools 1646 01:24:16,580 --> 01:24:19,880 that they need to gather the evidence and present it 1647 01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:22,900 and this is one of the greatest drawbacks 1648 01:24:22,900 --> 01:24:24,660 to this ethics code. 1649 01:24:24,660 --> 01:24:28,260 This is in my 15% toxic category 1650 01:24:28,260 --> 01:24:29,980 that needs to be set aside 1651 01:24:29,980 --> 01:24:34,080 and turn the entire investigation process 1652 01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:36,260 back to the Board of Ethics and make that 1653 01:24:36,260 --> 01:24:39,500 their responsibility to gather evidence 1654 01:24:39,500 --> 01:24:42,200 and present it to the rest of the board 1655 01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:44,660 but once the citizen has filed a complaint, 1656 01:24:44,660 --> 01:24:48,780 done it properly, now, in some cities, 1657 01:24:48,780 --> 01:24:51,020 they're not even required to attend the hearing. 1658 01:24:51,020 --> 01:24:54,080 I'm okay with, you know, if you wanna require 1659 01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:57,500 the complainant to attend the hearing, that's okay 1660 01:24:57,500 --> 01:24:59,540 but that should end their responsibility 1661 01:24:59,540 --> 01:25:03,020 once they have filed an adequate complaint, so. 1662 01:25:05,340 --> 01:25:06,940 - And it's just the fact that it's silent 1663 01:25:06,940 --> 01:25:09,580 and I've never read this anywhere else. 1664 01:25:09,580 --> 01:25:11,260 - Well, except for good reason. 1665 01:25:11,260 --> 01:25:13,740 - And I'm an ethics code nerd. 1666 01:25:13,740 --> 01:25:14,740 - For good reason. 1667 01:25:14,740 --> 01:25:17,460 I don't know who will. 1668 01:25:17,460 --> 01:25:20,820 - I agree, for the most part. 1669 01:25:20,820 --> 01:25:26,140 And again, I'm still just thinking like a lawyer here. 1670 01:25:26,140 --> 01:25:28,780 - Well, it kinda makes it so that the citizen 1671 01:25:28,780 --> 01:25:30,820 might feel like they have to file, 1672 01:25:30,820 --> 01:25:34,060 they have to hire legal counsel to file a complaint 1673 01:25:35,020 --> 01:25:36,960 and I think that's a lot to ask. 1674 01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:41,740 - I agree that a citizen should not be required 1675 01:25:41,740 --> 01:25:43,540 because they don't have the-- 1676 01:25:43,540 --> 01:25:45,100 - Resources. - The resources, 1677 01:25:45,100 --> 01:25:48,180 the knowledge, the expertise to establish a case. 1678 01:25:48,180 --> 01:25:49,020 - Thank you. 1679 01:25:49,020 --> 01:25:52,140 - But we also can't then shift the burden 1680 01:25:52,140 --> 01:25:57,140 to the defendant or the person responding, 1681 01:25:57,140 --> 01:26:00,100 so we cannot do that, I don't think. 1682 01:26:00,100 --> 01:26:01,100 That seems-- 1683 01:26:03,020 --> 01:26:06,020 - Well, they can be represented by counsel. 1684 01:26:06,020 --> 01:26:08,460 - I think that's why the evidentiary hearing 1685 01:26:08,460 --> 01:26:12,900 is so important, the evidentiary hearing 1686 01:26:12,900 --> 01:26:16,900 kinda shifts the burden of proof onto the board, 1687 01:26:16,900 --> 01:26:17,740 in a sense. 1688 01:26:17,740 --> 01:26:18,580 - I say, I like that. 1689 01:26:18,580 --> 01:26:22,340 - Yeah, so if we didn't have that evidentiary hearing, 1690 01:26:22,340 --> 01:26:25,260 then I would be, I wouldn't wanna take this out, 1691 01:26:25,260 --> 01:26:29,940 but I do wanna take it out, because at that point, 1692 01:26:29,940 --> 01:26:34,500 the board kinda takes on that thing 1693 01:26:34,500 --> 01:26:36,620 and we do have an attorney present 1694 01:26:36,620 --> 01:26:38,820 while we're making that decision, so we're. 1695 01:26:38,820 --> 01:26:43,500 - Could we shift the burden to us? 1696 01:26:43,500 --> 01:26:44,820 I don't know that we could do that. 1697 01:26:44,820 --> 01:26:46,740 - Well, I think it's better to-- 1698 01:26:46,740 --> 01:26:48,940 - 'Cause then we become the prosecutor, right? 1699 01:26:48,940 --> 01:26:49,780 That's not good. 1700 01:26:49,780 --> 01:26:51,540 - Yeah, we're not the prosecutors. 1701 01:26:51,540 --> 01:26:55,220 We're just waiting-- - People hearing, yeah. 1702 01:26:55,220 --> 01:26:58,940 - Is that still following the quasi-judicial setting? 1703 01:26:58,940 --> 01:27:00,420 - Yeah, when y'all are doing these hearings, 1704 01:27:00,420 --> 01:27:02,660 that's when you're serving your quasi-judicial role, 1705 01:27:02,660 --> 01:27:06,140 but y'all are, y'all are the adjudicators of being the, 1706 01:27:06,140 --> 01:27:07,500 you can't bear the burden of proof, 1707 01:27:07,500 --> 01:27:10,900 because you're having to assess 1708 01:27:10,900 --> 01:27:12,540 the way that the burden of proof is met. 1709 01:27:12,540 --> 01:27:14,540 - Yeah, I think-- 1710 01:27:14,540 --> 01:27:17,020 - Somebody's gotta bear the burden of proof. 1711 01:27:17,020 --> 01:27:22,560 - See, I've been wanting to shift that onto Madison. 1712 01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:25,040 (audience laughs) 1713 01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:25,880 - Or Joey. 1714 01:27:27,620 --> 01:27:29,220 - I don't recommend that. 1715 01:27:29,220 --> 01:27:31,540 (audience laughs) 1716 01:27:31,540 --> 01:27:32,380 - No, but with all-- 1717 01:27:32,380 --> 01:27:34,020 - I am also subject to the ethics one. 1718 01:27:34,020 --> 01:27:35,700 - With all due respect, though, 1719 01:27:35,700 --> 01:27:39,620 I always thought that there should be 1720 01:27:39,620 --> 01:27:44,540 a neutral third party assessing the evidence 1721 01:27:44,540 --> 01:27:46,860 and gathering the evidence. 1722 01:27:46,860 --> 01:27:50,940 That has always been my, so. 1723 01:27:50,940 --> 01:27:53,820 - I would say I am not a neutral third party, 1724 01:27:53,820 --> 01:27:55,340 because I report to the city. 1725 01:27:55,340 --> 01:27:57,940 - Yes, and that's-- - Yes. 1726 01:27:57,940 --> 01:28:00,460 (audience laughs) 1727 01:28:00,460 --> 01:28:01,420 - Mike. 1728 01:28:01,420 --> 01:28:03,940 - Could we get rid of the last two sentences in there? 1729 01:28:03,940 --> 01:28:07,380 That's soft, and that whole is required to appear. 1730 01:28:07,380 --> 01:28:12,380 That's excessive, a complaint is a failure to testify, 1731 01:28:12,380 --> 01:28:15,980 that is automatically your complaint's done. 1732 01:28:15,980 --> 01:28:19,060 That's excessive, you know, like David's saying, 1733 01:28:19,060 --> 01:28:22,260 once they establish it, however they establish it, 1734 01:28:22,260 --> 01:28:24,820 whether it's through testimony or evidence or whatever, 1735 01:28:24,820 --> 01:28:27,380 and it makes it through the evidentiary committee, 1736 01:28:27,380 --> 01:28:30,900 then, yeah, it seems like their burden is good, 1737 01:28:30,900 --> 01:28:34,620 and they meet that first sentence at that point, 1738 01:28:34,620 --> 01:28:35,860 but those second two sentences-- 1739 01:28:35,860 --> 01:28:39,480 - That is another area we have talked about. 1740 01:28:39,480 --> 01:28:41,380 - Most ethics committees have the ability 1741 01:28:41,380 --> 01:28:43,580 to compel testimony. 1742 01:28:43,580 --> 01:28:44,740 If you're just a complainant, 1743 01:28:44,740 --> 01:28:48,440 you have no power whatsoever putting together the facts. 1744 01:28:48,440 --> 01:28:53,440 Your powers, other than getting documents or whatever. 1745 01:28:53,440 --> 01:28:55,620 - And you're even limited there. 1746 01:28:55,620 --> 01:28:59,640 You can't subpoena the document, you're so limited. 1747 01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:05,560 - And the board has limited subpoena ability, right? 1748 01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:06,940 - Yeah, you can always subpoena. 1749 01:29:06,940 --> 01:29:10,680 - Does that come into play during the evidentiary? 1750 01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:13,420 - Yes, it would be during the formal hearing, 1751 01:29:13,420 --> 01:29:14,900 not during the preliminary hearing, 1752 01:29:14,900 --> 01:29:16,780 but during the complaint. 1753 01:29:16,780 --> 01:29:20,780 - It's a hard one, I don't know. 1754 01:29:20,780 --> 01:29:22,700 - It is a hard one. 1755 01:29:22,700 --> 01:29:25,340 - The way it is now, it's just totally chilling, 1756 01:29:25,340 --> 01:29:27,980 in fact, on the complainants. 1757 01:29:27,980 --> 01:29:38,740 - Are we, I guess we're not voting on all of this tonight, 1758 01:29:38,740 --> 01:29:39,580 are we? 1759 01:29:39,580 --> 01:29:41,940 I don't think we're voting on this. 1760 01:29:41,940 --> 01:29:43,820 - We're not voting. - We're not voting. 1761 01:29:43,820 --> 01:29:46,860 - So what we're doing is making recommendations 1762 01:29:46,860 --> 01:29:48,420 that come into play. - Yeah, so ultimately, 1763 01:29:48,420 --> 01:29:51,560 the process, the board has the authority 1764 01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:54,380 to propose recommended amendments and the ordinance 1765 01:29:54,380 --> 01:29:58,420 to the city council, and they make the ultimate decision 1766 01:29:58,420 --> 01:30:00,700 on whether to accept those, adopt those amendments 1767 01:30:00,700 --> 01:30:02,620 to be in the ordinance. 1768 01:30:02,620 --> 01:30:06,260 - Yeah, I would, I would move just to move the, 1769 01:30:06,260 --> 01:30:09,260 to remove the last two sentences, would be my, 1770 01:30:09,260 --> 01:30:12,900 I don't think we can do away with the entire burden proof, 1771 01:30:12,900 --> 01:30:14,580 'cause then we end up with no evidence. 1772 01:30:14,580 --> 01:30:17,280 - So, tell me, I'm just curious, 1773 01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:21,340 how do you answer that it's not in any other code, 1774 01:30:21,340 --> 01:30:24,540 anywhere, 'cause I've looked all over for it. 1775 01:30:24,540 --> 01:30:27,120 I think David and I both have. 1776 01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:32,500 If it's not a common thing, 1777 01:30:32,500 --> 01:30:34,620 what does Weschler say about burden? 1778 01:30:34,620 --> 01:30:37,820 I know you've read up on what burden of proof. 1779 01:30:37,820 --> 01:30:41,220 - Well, it's up to the board of ethics. 1780 01:30:41,220 --> 01:30:42,660 No, not the complainant. 1781 01:30:42,660 --> 01:30:45,660 I mean, the burden of proof rests totally with the board, 1782 01:30:45,660 --> 01:30:50,140 as they, you know, discuss or propose a hearing. 1783 01:30:51,900 --> 01:30:53,180 If nothing else, they have, you know, 1784 01:30:53,180 --> 01:30:56,540 the legal requirements to gather bad evidence 1785 01:30:56,540 --> 01:30:59,620 cannot rest on the complainant alone. 1786 01:30:59,620 --> 01:31:02,020 - So, technically, we could say, 1787 01:31:02,020 --> 01:31:05,220 we don't have enough information to make this decision, 1788 01:31:05,220 --> 01:31:07,700 and that. 1789 01:31:07,700 --> 01:31:14,700 - What about removing the burden of proof 1790 01:31:14,700 --> 01:31:16,620 and putting a duty to investigate? 1791 01:31:19,780 --> 01:31:21,940 - Getting rid of the burden of proof 1792 01:31:21,940 --> 01:31:25,980 and doing a duty to investigate onto the board. 1793 01:31:25,980 --> 01:31:27,100 - Rather than investigate, 1794 01:31:27,100 --> 01:31:29,780 I'd rather see the way the evidence presented. 1795 01:31:29,780 --> 01:31:32,500 - Well, then, but who has the burden to present evidence? 1796 01:31:32,500 --> 01:31:37,500 - That's implied in the language that would they fill out. 1797 01:31:37,500 --> 01:31:40,860 - The burden to present evidence 1798 01:31:40,860 --> 01:31:44,340 is on the complainant in the complaint submission. 1799 01:31:44,340 --> 01:31:46,220 So, they have to provide evidence 1800 01:31:46,220 --> 01:31:47,060 that there wasn't. - Provide the evidence 1801 01:31:47,060 --> 01:31:49,660 of where they're coming from with their complaint. 1802 01:31:49,660 --> 01:31:52,620 It's just a matter of doing slightly different words 1803 01:31:52,620 --> 01:31:53,860 to make it less. 1804 01:31:53,860 --> 01:31:57,260 - And most of the time, 1805 01:31:57,260 --> 01:31:59,520 most of the time when we've had hearings, 1806 01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:02,540 there hasn't been enough evidence. 1807 01:32:02,540 --> 01:32:04,380 - Yeah, there's not enough evidence. 1808 01:32:04,380 --> 01:32:06,820 - And that comes out in the evidence jury hearing. 1809 01:32:06,820 --> 01:32:10,620 A lot of these complaints are filed 1810 01:32:10,620 --> 01:32:16,700 when people are in a pretty emotional state and they're mad, 1811 01:32:16,700 --> 01:32:19,340 and so they fire off something. 1812 01:32:19,340 --> 01:32:21,580 I mean, what I've noticed, 1813 01:32:21,580 --> 01:32:23,200 and then we have to have a hearing, 1814 01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:26,420 and it's pretty obvious within just a few minutes 1815 01:32:26,420 --> 01:32:28,340 that there's really nothing to it. 1816 01:32:28,340 --> 01:32:31,760 - So, but if we remove this, 1817 01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:36,700 there's now not that little voice in your head 1818 01:32:36,700 --> 01:32:38,480 that says, "Hey, before you submit this, 1819 01:32:38,480 --> 01:32:40,300 "are you gonna be able to prove it?" 1820 01:32:40,300 --> 01:32:43,700 Now that it is a chilling effect, 1821 01:32:43,700 --> 01:32:46,020 but is it a rightful chilling effect to say-- 1822 01:32:46,020 --> 01:32:49,340 - But there's wording of evidence that you have to provide 1823 01:32:49,340 --> 01:32:50,180 evidence. 1824 01:32:50,180 --> 01:32:55,340 - The complainant has to show what part of the code 1825 01:32:55,340 --> 01:32:56,980 it violates, 'cause-- 1826 01:32:56,980 --> 01:33:03,020 - I'm glad they believe there's been an ethical violation. 1827 01:33:03,020 --> 01:33:05,020 - I've had people call me and I'm like, 1828 01:33:05,020 --> 01:33:07,260 that's not a violation of our code. 1829 01:33:07,260 --> 01:33:10,140 Don't file it, don't file a complaint. 1830 01:33:10,140 --> 01:33:11,420 - This is the form. 1831 01:33:16,780 --> 01:33:18,300 - Provide a statement of facts 1832 01:33:18,300 --> 01:33:22,300 constituting the violation, that would be the-- 1833 01:33:22,300 --> 01:33:26,780 - But we're not saying much softer language. 1834 01:33:26,780 --> 01:33:28,320 - Just softening the language. 1835 01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:29,160 - Yeah. 1836 01:33:29,160 --> 01:33:32,180 - Well, and that's because this is going to the public 1837 01:33:32,180 --> 01:33:35,060 as to where our ordinance is us, right? 1838 01:33:35,060 --> 01:33:37,020 It's telling us who has the burden. 1839 01:33:37,020 --> 01:33:39,100 It's telling us what to do, 1840 01:33:39,100 --> 01:33:41,380 not telling the public what to do. 1841 01:33:41,380 --> 01:33:45,020 It's telling them what our requirements and obligations are, 1842 01:33:45,020 --> 01:33:47,660 so they're going to know what to expect when they come in. 1843 01:33:47,660 --> 01:33:53,820 But this is to us, so that that way we can't just say, 1844 01:33:53,820 --> 01:33:56,780 ah, you know what, today the burden is on you, defendant. 1845 01:33:56,780 --> 01:33:59,300 You have to prove your innocence. 1846 01:33:59,300 --> 01:34:03,320 You know, it mandates, it prevents us 1847 01:34:03,320 --> 01:34:05,360 from acting arbitrarily. 1848 01:34:05,360 --> 01:34:07,640 - Well, sure, we don't want to do that. 1849 01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:11,840 - Just replace brutal proof with provide evidence. 1850 01:34:13,580 --> 01:34:18,580 Why you leave an ethical, epic code that's been violated. 1851 01:34:18,580 --> 01:34:22,260 - Yeah, we could rewrite, write it like that, 1852 01:34:22,260 --> 01:34:27,260 and it just says, you know, the complaint must, you know, 1853 01:34:27,260 --> 01:34:29,420 provide sufficient facts and evidence 1854 01:34:29,420 --> 01:34:32,340 to establish the violation, and we can do that. 1855 01:34:32,340 --> 01:34:35,740 - We don't even have to go to evidence, we just have to. 1856 01:34:35,740 --> 01:34:37,340 - Evidence is an aggressive word. 1857 01:34:37,340 --> 01:34:41,260 - Right, we all, as long as we're factual statements. 1858 01:34:41,260 --> 01:34:43,900 And I think the complainant needs to say, 1859 01:34:43,900 --> 01:34:45,660 how does it violate the code? 1860 01:34:45,660 --> 01:34:46,500 - Yeah. 1861 01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:47,620 - You know, what section are we looking at? 1862 01:34:47,620 --> 01:34:48,580 What's the wording? 1863 01:34:48,580 --> 01:34:53,420 I think that's fair, because, 1864 01:34:53,420 --> 01:34:59,780 otherwise you're gonna get these 1865 01:34:59,780 --> 01:35:03,220 really emotional complaints, and that being, 1866 01:35:03,220 --> 01:35:05,820 I mean, there was one we had that was really embarrassing, 1867 01:35:05,820 --> 01:35:10,100 and I felt badly for the person who got complained against, 1868 01:35:10,100 --> 01:35:15,100 and, you know, just, you know, 1869 01:35:15,100 --> 01:35:19,340 you have to take a little, you have to take a step back 1870 01:35:19,340 --> 01:35:22,880 and breathe, and, you know, how's it violate the code? 1871 01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:27,020 - So, amend to just say, you know, 1872 01:35:27,020 --> 01:35:29,060 it's on the complainant to provide facts 1873 01:35:29,060 --> 01:35:30,540 showing the violation. 1874 01:35:30,540 --> 01:35:32,100 - Yeah, that's rich, that's epic. 1875 01:35:32,100 --> 01:35:33,180 So, you got it. 1876 01:35:33,180 --> 01:35:36,860 - I know this is, the complainant has the obligation 1877 01:35:36,860 --> 01:35:39,460 to provide facts. 1878 01:35:39,460 --> 01:35:41,420 - Do we have to call it burdened or approved? 1879 01:35:41,420 --> 01:35:42,260 - No. 1880 01:35:42,260 --> 01:35:44,260 - I was just thinking, what could do, 1881 01:35:44,260 --> 01:35:49,500 establishment of, no, establishing the violation? 1882 01:35:49,500 --> 01:35:52,180 I mean, yeah, well, I don't know, softened language, but. 1883 01:35:52,180 --> 01:35:54,420 - Definitely softer language would be fine. 1884 01:35:54,420 --> 01:35:57,900 I would really appreciate that. 1885 01:35:57,900 --> 01:35:58,820 David? 1886 01:35:58,820 --> 01:36:02,280 - Question for the Chair, or Madison. 1887 01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:04,500 My memory, I apologize. 1888 01:36:04,500 --> 01:36:08,420 Have we not already agreed, six months or a year ago, 1889 01:36:08,420 --> 01:36:12,660 that this burden of proof should be on the delete list 1890 01:36:12,660 --> 01:36:13,500 for our code? 1891 01:36:13,500 --> 01:36:16,140 - Yes, that is why we have a red line, 1892 01:36:16,140 --> 01:36:17,860 but at the same time, we're also trying 1893 01:36:17,860 --> 01:36:19,900 to make this more powerful for the city council. 1894 01:36:19,900 --> 01:36:22,260 - Okay, so we're not debating whether or not it's-- 1895 01:36:22,260 --> 01:36:23,080 - No. 1896 01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:25,100 - Okay. 1897 01:36:25,100 --> 01:36:27,540 - This red line was presented to the city council 1898 01:36:27,540 --> 01:36:28,700 and they rejected it. 1899 01:36:28,700 --> 01:36:29,540 - Yeah, right. 1900 01:36:29,540 --> 01:36:30,660 - This, exactly. 1901 01:36:30,660 --> 01:36:34,100 So, along with trying to update it and make it more powerful. 1902 01:36:34,100 --> 01:36:36,380 - Along with pretty much everything else. 1903 01:36:36,380 --> 01:36:39,940 - Well, I don't know when the time is on our current agenda 1904 01:36:39,940 --> 01:36:43,220 tonight then, but I'm curious what the next, 1905 01:36:43,220 --> 01:36:46,620 I don't wanna get political here, 1906 01:36:46,620 --> 01:36:51,540 but will this be on a city agenda before the next election? 1907 01:36:51,540 --> 01:36:52,780 That issue right there. 1908 01:36:52,780 --> 01:36:55,300 - That was one reason I pushed so hard 1909 01:36:55,300 --> 01:36:56,980 to have a meeting tonight. 1910 01:36:56,980 --> 01:36:59,740 - Well, I hate, I mean, I don't wanna bring this up 1911 01:36:59,740 --> 01:37:02,880 unless it's at the appropriate time, 1912 01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:04,600 but I'd like to know when the city council 1913 01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:06,460 is gonna see this. 1914 01:37:06,460 --> 01:37:10,100 - I don't have it, you don't have a proposal yet, 1915 01:37:10,100 --> 01:37:11,880 so I don't have it on an agenda. 1916 01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:13,620 If you would like me to try to get it 1917 01:37:13,620 --> 01:37:15,660 on a work session agenda, I can do so before the next election. 1918 01:37:15,660 --> 01:37:20,660 - We were told at the last meeting when it kind of blew up, 1919 01:37:20,660 --> 01:37:25,200 basically, that bring in something better. 1920 01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:28,140 And this is hard to hear. 1921 01:37:28,140 --> 01:37:29,500 - Well, do we need to make a motion then 1922 01:37:29,500 --> 01:37:32,540 to get this on the agenda sometime soon? 1923 01:37:32,540 --> 01:37:34,500 Or at least before the next election? 1924 01:37:34,500 --> 01:37:37,020 Because this council's gonna flip today, 1925 01:37:37,020 --> 01:37:40,740 and this may not survive, so, I mean, I'm sorry. 1926 01:37:40,740 --> 01:37:44,220 - Well, the part that I am really unhappy about 1927 01:37:44,220 --> 01:37:46,940 is that we had to wait five months. 1928 01:37:46,940 --> 01:37:50,540 And I think that was a personal decision. 1929 01:37:50,540 --> 01:37:57,020 You know, I do not wanna wait five months again. 1930 01:37:57,020 --> 01:38:01,020 - So can we just a minute to say 1931 01:38:02,460 --> 01:38:06,640 responsibility to establish facts. 1932 01:38:06,640 --> 01:38:07,660 - Or present facts. 1933 01:38:07,660 --> 01:38:09,020 - Or present facts. 1934 01:38:09,020 --> 01:38:11,580 Let's do established. 1935 01:38:11,580 --> 01:38:13,900 Present insinuates that they're gonna be required 1936 01:38:13,900 --> 01:38:15,660 to come to the hearing. 1937 01:38:15,660 --> 01:38:17,140 - They are required to come. 1938 01:38:17,140 --> 01:38:19,140 - Are we, you don't wanna leave that in there? 1939 01:38:19,140 --> 01:38:20,700 - Yeah, we have to. 1940 01:38:20,700 --> 01:38:22,740 We've discussed that a lot. 1941 01:38:22,740 --> 01:38:26,260 - So requirement to establish or to present facts. 1942 01:38:26,260 --> 01:38:28,000 - That are tied to the code. 1943 01:38:28,000 --> 01:38:31,700 - And then that would be the title. 1944 01:38:33,460 --> 01:38:37,180 - Colon, it's on the complaint to provide facts, 1945 01:38:37,180 --> 01:38:41,280 sufficient facts, showing a violation of the code. 1946 01:38:41,280 --> 01:38:44,520 That seems-- - I like that. 1947 01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:46,740 - Soft enough to-- - Yeah. 1948 01:38:46,740 --> 01:38:48,740 - Not chill. 1949 01:38:48,740 --> 01:38:50,660 - Yeah, yeah, I like that. - But still strong enough 1950 01:38:50,660 --> 01:38:53,460 that, you know, in the future, 1951 01:38:53,460 --> 01:38:54,420 nobody's gonna be able to-- - They can't just make up 1952 01:38:54,420 --> 01:38:57,100 any old thing, they have to show some facts. 1953 01:38:57,100 --> 01:39:00,500 - Thinking about it, I just... 1954 01:39:00,500 --> 01:39:02,180 - So let's put something like that in, 1955 01:39:02,180 --> 01:39:04,380 and we'll talk about it at the next meeting, 1956 01:39:04,380 --> 01:39:05,740 and at that point, I guess what we can do. 1957 01:39:05,740 --> 01:39:07,600 - Yeah, I'll just leave it. 1958 01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:08,440 - Okay. 1959 01:39:08,440 --> 01:39:12,020 This is the last item, right? 1960 01:39:12,020 --> 01:39:12,860 - No. 1961 01:39:12,860 --> 01:39:14,300 (laughing) 1962 01:39:14,300 --> 01:39:16,140 - I think we didn't just have a future agenda meeting. 1963 01:39:16,140 --> 01:39:18,540 - You wrote down what-- - Yeah. 1964 01:39:18,540 --> 01:39:20,780 - I did, and it's recorded. 1965 01:39:20,780 --> 01:39:22,860 - So, so-- - For my own, 1966 01:39:22,860 --> 01:39:25,900 can you-- - I believe it would be like, 1967 01:39:25,900 --> 01:39:30,860 responsibility to present facts, 1968 01:39:30,860 --> 01:39:35,860 Homeland, it is the responsibility of the complainant 1969 01:39:35,860 --> 01:39:39,140 to present sufficient facts to establish a violation 1970 01:39:39,140 --> 01:39:41,820 of the ordinance, something like that, 1971 01:39:41,820 --> 01:39:45,700 and then we would still have this language, 1972 01:39:45,700 --> 01:39:47,700 is what I believe-- - Right. 1973 01:39:47,700 --> 01:39:48,860 - The direction it was? 1974 01:39:48,860 --> 01:39:52,980 To require them to still testify at the hearing, 1975 01:39:52,980 --> 01:39:56,580 and then do you still want it to be an automatic dismissal 1976 01:39:56,580 --> 01:39:57,940 if they do not testify? 1977 01:40:00,540 --> 01:40:05,320 - Yeah, I guess it's not really a requirement if it's not. 1978 01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:08,580 - Well, that's another whole issue, honestly. 1979 01:40:08,580 --> 01:40:10,140 - I don't think it should be, but-- 1980 01:40:10,140 --> 01:40:10,980 - I don't think it should be either, but-- 1981 01:40:10,980 --> 01:40:12,420 - It may get struck down by-- 1982 01:40:12,420 --> 01:40:14,100 - I don't think it'll fly. 1983 01:40:14,100 --> 01:40:18,580 But I do think that softer language might fly, 1984 01:40:18,580 --> 01:40:19,780 and that would be... 1985 01:40:19,780 --> 01:40:24,940 Yeah. 1986 01:40:24,940 --> 01:40:28,380 So I like what we've talked about tonight. 1987 01:40:28,380 --> 01:40:33,100 I think this concludes this part of the discussion. 1988 01:40:33,100 --> 01:40:37,380 So can we move on? 1989 01:40:37,380 --> 01:40:38,740 Are you guys okay moving on? 1990 01:40:38,740 --> 01:40:39,580 - Yes. - Yeah. 1991 01:40:39,580 --> 01:40:41,820 - I do have one point of inquiry. 1992 01:40:41,820 --> 01:40:44,160 I'm guessing this is gonna be directed to Scott, 1993 01:40:44,160 --> 01:40:46,580 but is there a motion or something we can file 1994 01:40:46,580 --> 01:40:49,980 to put this on the city council's docket, I don't know. 1995 01:40:49,980 --> 01:40:52,420 - No, he'll have the power to put something on the agenda, 1996 01:40:52,420 --> 01:40:55,540 but there's also no language yet. 1997 01:40:55,540 --> 01:40:59,920 So I think the idea is, the way it's been done, 1998 01:40:59,920 --> 01:41:02,860 is y'all have made recommendations. 1999 01:41:02,860 --> 01:41:05,660 Madison will draft language 2000 01:41:05,660 --> 01:41:09,140 that hopefully accomplishes everything y'all have talked about. 2001 01:41:09,140 --> 01:41:11,840 We'll bring it back. 2002 01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:13,140 I'll help advise a little bit 2003 01:41:13,140 --> 01:41:16,500 to make sure it's legally sound. 2004 01:41:16,500 --> 01:41:20,360 It'll come back, and then you'll approve that language, 2005 01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:22,540 or maybe you might have minor, 2006 01:41:22,540 --> 01:41:24,520 just wordsmithing changes that you wanna make, 2007 01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:26,920 but at that point, you'll have something 2008 01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:28,980 you can actually send to council. 2009 01:41:28,980 --> 01:41:31,740 - My hope is that we can have this mostly firmed up 2010 01:41:31,740 --> 01:41:36,580 at our January meeting, and then say, 2011 01:41:36,580 --> 01:41:38,220 okay, we're ready to. 2012 01:41:38,220 --> 01:41:40,640 - I think we can maybe shoot for April. 2013 01:41:40,640 --> 01:41:45,020 - So timeline-wise, the way it usually works, 2014 01:41:45,020 --> 01:41:47,140 we have a bunch of sessions like this. 2015 01:41:47,140 --> 01:41:48,980 We make changes to the code. 2016 01:41:48,980 --> 01:41:52,120 And then we make one big motion. 2017 01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:53,900 We go through them all again. 2018 01:41:53,900 --> 01:41:55,260 We wanna make one big motion 2019 01:41:55,260 --> 01:41:57,500 so that Madison can get us on the-- 2020 01:41:57,500 --> 01:41:58,960 - Okay. - On the-- 2021 01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:00,100 - And we go through, basically, 2022 01:42:00,100 --> 01:42:02,820 this is how they will be presented to the city council. 2023 01:42:02,820 --> 01:42:05,020 I don't know if you're familiar with the charter process, 2024 01:42:05,020 --> 01:42:07,540 but it's kind of similar, a little bit, 2025 01:42:07,540 --> 01:42:10,420 in where we were like, this is the proposal, 2026 01:42:10,420 --> 01:42:12,100 this is the next proposal, 2027 01:42:12,100 --> 01:42:14,180 so that they can consider them separately. 2028 01:42:14,180 --> 01:42:16,540 - Okay. - Perfect. 2029 01:42:16,540 --> 01:42:18,100 - So I know that council members 2030 01:42:18,100 --> 01:42:20,980 do have the ability to fast-track something. 2031 01:42:20,980 --> 01:42:23,460 - I'm not a council member, 2032 01:42:23,460 --> 01:42:24,940 but-- (laughs) 2033 01:42:24,940 --> 01:42:26,180 - I know they do. 2034 01:42:26,180 --> 01:42:30,180 We will have to chat some more. 2035 01:42:30,180 --> 01:42:34,700 Okay, so we're on to the last item. 2036 01:42:34,700 --> 01:42:39,140 EBOE24-052, Receiver of a Portable Discussion 2037 01:42:39,140 --> 01:42:42,480 that Gives Stat Direction Regarding Future Meeting Topics. 2038 01:42:42,480 --> 01:42:50,380 - So one of the things, yeah, 2039 01:42:50,380 --> 01:42:52,580 so one of the things that you've already talked about 2040 01:42:52,580 --> 01:42:56,900 as the language for, 2041 01:42:56,900 --> 01:43:00,060 or that we talked about newly tonight 2042 01:43:00,060 --> 01:43:02,700 was the Open Meetings Act 2043 01:43:02,700 --> 01:43:07,700 and on this confidential complaint process. 2044 01:43:07,700 --> 01:43:11,300 You brought that up tonight. 2045 01:43:11,300 --> 01:43:12,140 - Yes. 2046 01:43:12,140 --> 01:43:16,660 - And then these are other things 2047 01:43:16,660 --> 01:43:18,380 that we have discussed before. 2048 01:43:19,860 --> 01:43:22,700 Council did give direction to the board 2049 01:43:22,700 --> 01:43:24,220 to try to provide guidance 2050 01:43:24,220 --> 01:43:25,980 on interactions with petitioners. 2051 01:43:25,980 --> 01:43:31,400 I was brought up and there was not necessarily 2052 01:43:31,400 --> 01:43:35,180 a clear timeline on that that they gave direction on. 2053 01:43:35,180 --> 01:43:38,220 - I would just like to ask that we put 2054 01:43:38,220 --> 01:43:42,860 these proposed changes at the top of the agenda. 2055 01:43:42,860 --> 01:43:44,100 - In case we run out of time. 2056 01:43:44,100 --> 01:43:47,540 - Yeah, and I don't care what follows after that, 2057 01:43:47,540 --> 01:43:51,580 but I want to get this done as quickly as we can 2058 01:43:51,580 --> 01:43:55,420 because I know how they delay things. 2059 01:43:55,420 --> 01:43:56,260 - What is the, 2060 01:43:56,260 --> 01:44:01,780 what is the bullet you want under a new item? 2061 01:44:01,780 --> 01:44:02,980 What is council asking? 2062 01:44:02,980 --> 01:44:10,180 - I don't have a lot of more clear direction on it than this. 2063 01:44:10,180 --> 01:44:13,340 So the city council has a process, 2064 01:44:13,340 --> 01:44:14,580 the two minute pitch process 2065 01:44:14,580 --> 01:44:17,300 where they can propose items to each other 2066 01:44:17,300 --> 01:44:21,580 basically one of the council members proposed 2067 01:44:21,580 --> 01:44:24,260 basically asking the board of ethics 2068 01:44:24,260 --> 01:44:27,620 to provide guidance on how they should interact 2069 01:44:27,620 --> 01:44:32,620 with other, it's like petitioners, applicants, developers. 2070 01:44:32,620 --> 01:44:38,660 And I can bring back the exact language 2071 01:44:38,660 --> 01:44:41,180 in that proposal that they gave direction to go forward with 2072 01:44:41,180 --> 01:44:45,940 but that is about the extent of the direction included. 2073 01:44:45,940 --> 01:44:50,940 - So maybe we could make that our next item to look at. 2074 01:44:50,940 --> 01:44:52,140 - Sounds like that. 2075 01:44:52,140 --> 01:44:55,820 That should probably be a question in an advisory opinion. 2076 01:44:55,820 --> 01:45:00,140 If they can request an advisory opinion. 2077 01:45:00,140 --> 01:45:02,780 I don't know how we're going to provide, 2078 01:45:02,780 --> 01:45:06,140 can't just provide guidance to them on how they can act. 2079 01:45:06,140 --> 01:45:10,700 I mean, that's my, that would be my response to that. 2080 01:45:10,700 --> 01:45:12,940 If they have a specific request-- 2081 01:45:12,940 --> 01:45:13,780 - Tell us more, please. 2082 01:45:13,780 --> 01:45:16,340 - We can ask for an advisory opinion 2083 01:45:16,340 --> 01:45:18,300 because there's no mechanism for us 2084 01:45:18,300 --> 01:45:20,460 to give them guidance on anything. 2085 01:45:20,460 --> 01:45:23,980 We can provide recommendations for changing the ordinance 2086 01:45:23,980 --> 01:45:26,060 that they get to vote on and approve 2087 01:45:26,060 --> 01:45:30,660 but other than our advisory opinions, 2088 01:45:30,660 --> 01:45:33,820 there's not a way for us to give them guidance. 2089 01:45:33,820 --> 01:45:34,660 - I would agree. 2090 01:45:34,660 --> 01:45:37,020 It seems like it's outside of our scope. 2091 01:45:37,020 --> 01:45:41,220 - And then the proposed changes from the, 2092 01:45:41,220 --> 01:45:44,020 we just discussed it today and said that's gone, so. 2093 01:45:44,020 --> 01:45:49,340 I would say just start working down the list 2094 01:45:49,340 --> 01:45:54,140 but I feel fairly confident that in the next meeting, 2095 01:45:54,140 --> 01:45:56,740 we're going to spend the whole time talking about 2096 01:45:56,740 --> 01:45:58,980 these changes that we've gone over tonight 2097 01:45:58,980 --> 01:46:01,980 and to me, that's enough. 2098 01:46:01,980 --> 01:46:09,060 - Oh, we had discussed some of the advisory opinion. 2099 01:46:09,060 --> 01:46:11,820 That was on the research. 2100 01:46:11,820 --> 01:46:18,180 So we had a question about how other cities, 2101 01:46:18,180 --> 01:46:21,580 what requirements they have 2102 01:46:21,580 --> 01:46:23,540 around the advisory opinion process 2103 01:46:23,540 --> 01:46:24,740 but we haven't done that research yet 2104 01:46:24,740 --> 01:46:26,620 but that was the request to look into that 2105 01:46:26,620 --> 01:46:28,020 and present it to the board. 2106 01:46:28,020 --> 01:46:33,100 - All of these are things I want to discuss 2107 01:46:33,100 --> 01:46:36,420 but I think this bigger package is the thing 2108 01:46:36,420 --> 01:46:38,420 that we need to get taken care of 2109 01:46:38,420 --> 01:46:41,660 and then we'll get on to other things. 2110 01:46:41,660 --> 01:46:45,300 - So where this, for next time we'll do, 2111 01:46:45,300 --> 01:46:47,020 we'll have the conflict of interest 2112 01:46:47,020 --> 01:46:49,780 and burden of food proposal which will be different. 2113 01:46:49,780 --> 01:46:50,900 It won't be burden of food anymore 2114 01:46:50,900 --> 01:46:55,140 but I'll bring back language we all will discuss 2115 01:46:55,140 --> 01:46:57,380 and try to break them up into different proposals 2116 01:46:57,380 --> 01:47:01,900 if necessary and then maybe in February, 2117 01:47:01,900 --> 01:47:04,180 we can hopefully have, this is the packet 2118 01:47:04,180 --> 01:47:06,260 that we're going to send to them 2119 01:47:06,260 --> 01:47:09,460 and then either March or a guy can ask 2120 01:47:09,460 --> 01:47:12,060 if we can get out on the work session in March or April. 2121 01:47:12,060 --> 01:47:13,900 - March. 2122 01:47:13,900 --> 01:47:15,620 - Please. 2123 01:47:15,620 --> 01:47:18,220 - Question for Madison. 2124 01:47:18,220 --> 01:47:19,660 Are we at the point where anything 2125 01:47:19,660 --> 01:47:23,420 that we ultimately recommend can go to the agenda 2126 01:47:23,420 --> 01:47:27,100 or is it going to end up in one of their work sessions again? 2127 01:47:27,100 --> 01:47:31,420 - Process that we historically followed 2128 01:47:31,420 --> 01:47:33,100 is it goes to work session first 2129 01:47:33,100 --> 01:47:36,060 so that they can provide direction on adoption or not. 2130 01:47:36,060 --> 01:47:37,340 - So even the burden of proof, 2131 01:47:37,340 --> 01:47:39,260 we'll go back to a work session? 2132 01:47:39,260 --> 01:47:40,100 - Yes. 2133 01:47:40,100 --> 01:47:52,500 - So our next meeting is Monday, January 6th. 2134 01:47:52,500 --> 01:47:59,260 - At that meeting, we'll also discuss the schedule 2135 01:47:59,260 --> 01:48:00,980 for the rest of the calendar year 2136 01:48:00,980 --> 01:48:02,940 and then we'll have elections as well. 2137 01:48:02,940 --> 01:48:05,260 - Okay, that should be an inch at night. 2138 01:48:05,260 --> 01:48:06,100 - Yes, it's on there. 2139 01:48:06,100 --> 01:48:07,180 - All right. 2140 01:48:07,180 --> 01:48:08,300 - All right. 2141 01:48:08,300 --> 01:48:11,340 - Okay, so it is now 7.23 p.m. 2142 01:48:11,340 --> 01:48:13,580 I thank all of you for being here tonight 2143 01:48:13,580 --> 01:48:17,780 so close to the holidays and we are adjourned. 2144 01:48:17,780 --> 01:48:18,620 - Thank you. 2145 01:48:18,620 --> 01:48:19,620 - Thank you.