Jun 10, 2024 Historic Landmark Commission on 2024-06-10 5:30 PM

I'm going to call the meeting of the Historic Landmark Commission to order. It is Monday, June 10, 2024 at 5.30 p.m. And if you will, we're going to stand and do the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. On the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state, under God, one and indivisible. Thank you very much. And I do not see anyone in the audience, so I take it we do not have anyone for public comment. Did you want to do an introduction? Oh, that's item 3A. Oh, that's where we're going, right? That's where we are, oh, I know. HLC item 3A, HLC 24-022. We are going to introduce a new commissioner. We have Commissioner Ethan Gillis. Welcome. Thank you. Did you want to do an introduction here, or did you want to count it? I'll let you take the floor. Sure, I appreciate it. Well, hello everyone. My name's Ethan Gillis. I'm very excited to be with you all tonight. A little bit about me, I'm currently wrapping up my studies at the University of North Texas. I'm an advertising major there. I've been very involved on campus over the last few years, really involved in our Student Government Association, let our Student Alumni Association, and was recently appointed as the student region for the University of North Texas system. So, very proud of my institution and the city I've lived in for the last few years. I was looking to get more involved in the community and this particular commission really spoke to me. As a kid, my grandma called me an old soul, which I translate to big nerd. So, I was very interested in history and things of that nature growing up. And when I was looking for ways to get involved in the community, this was one that spoke to me. You know, I have a lot of interest in local government and community and I'm really here to learn and to grow and excited to be with this fantastic group. So, thank you all so much for having me with you. Well, welcome. Welcome. Did everyone get to meet me? Did you give your names? I'm Maddie. Commissioner Tepperman did. Commissioner McAdams, did you get to? I'm sorry. Did you get to introduce yourself? No, no. But I'm Lainey McAdams. Pleasure to meet you. And you? Always. Dossel and easy to get along with. Commissioner Tree, did you introduce yourself? Sorry. I didn't mean to laugh that loud. You're still spicy, Lainey. It's okay. I'm Dr. Thomas. I'm actually a former professor at the University of North Texas, local historian, D2 rep, and also a big nerd. So, you're in good company. Good to hear. And I'm Lainey McAdams. It's a pleasure to meet you. And always docile and easy to get along with. Commissioner Tree, did you introduce yourself? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to laugh that loud. You're still spicy, Lainey. It's okay. I'm Dr. Thomas. I'm actually a former professor at the University of North Texas, local historian. I'm a D2 rep, and also a big nerd, so you're in good company. Good to hear. All right. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you. All right. Item 3B, number HLC 2.4, initial rule 1.6 on our agenda is to approve a consideration and approval of the May 13, 2024 minutes. Hope you've all had an opportunity to read those, and I will entertain a motion in a minute, or any corrections. I will. Yes, online. I read them. So I will move their approval. Okay. And I'll second that. All right. With commendations on the presentations given. There you go. All right. So motion by Commissioner McAdams, seconded by Commissioner Tree. All in favor, please raise your hand. All right. Motion passes. Commissioner Tree, do they have your name here? Because I think you were oversaw that, Lainey. That is the rumor. Yes, ma'am. So could we pass that down for you to sign for the minutes? Sir, come on. Thank you. Happy to do it. Thanks so much. We are going to go now into our work session. Item 4A, number HLC 2.4-021 on our agenda is to receive a report and hold a discussion regarding different local level tax exemptions offered throughout Texas on historic properties. And I think we have some handouts in front of you. Yes. Thank you, Chair. So this evening, this is kind of a follow-up to our May 13th discussion. As you all can see in front of you, we do have the presentation from May 13th for you to reference throughout, but also Lacy has printed out the presentation for today because there are lots of words. I've tried to pare it down as much as possible, but you can only pare it down so much before you start losing information. So feel free. I want this to be informal because I do want this to be a discussion. So if you do have questions as I'm going through, please stop me and I'm happy to talk about them or answer those questions, but I'm excited. So the table of contents for tonight's presentation, the why, give me a brief overview of that designated historic sites tax exemption that we discussed last month, the different examples of other types of historic tax incentives in those different locations. And then we'll be kind of looking at a comparison of Denton versus those other Texas cities that I've covered and then any questions and discussion. So the why, as I previously stated, this is a continuation of that May 13th discussion talking about what if as a city we're doing enough to incentivize historic destinations and also that will kind of lead into whether or not we make any improvements to our present historic tax incentives program and then obviously educational purposes just to kind of see what other cities are doing out there. So a brief overview, as you all know, currently our tax exemption is 50% of the historic site assessed value, which is that city property tax as you all learned last month, it lasts 10 years and you have to spend a minimum of $10,000 to even qualify or be eligible. And those $10,000 need to be spent on permanent improvements and/or restoration to the property. But as you all know, you can reapply every 10 years for this tax incentive as long as you hit that $10,000 minimum. So that's currently what we have for designated historic properties. So I'm going to jump right into the other cities because they have lots of great information and I'm really excited. So in terms of San Antonio, two of the tax incentives I wanted to show you all have to do with substantial rehabilitation and owner-occupied residents in new historic districts. So when we're looking at the substantial rehabilitation, this is for local landmarks and properties within local historic districts that are undergoing substantial rehabilitation. It does remain with the property. So if you sell your property, whatever it may be, that doesn't matter. In terms of residential versus commercial, residential, they will freeze the city property tax at the assessed value prior to rehabilitation for up to 10 years. If you're looking at commercial, they split it into two sets of five years. So the first five years, you're looking at no city property taxes are owed. And then the next five years, the city property taxes are assessed at 50% of the post-rehabilitation appraisal after that fifth year. So basically like year six, essentially. Then in terms of kind of ensuring that you're keeping your property up to date and making sure that you're meeting the substantial rehabilitation, it does require certification by their historic and design review commission, which in this case would be the historic landmark commission. And that is prior to the project's implementation or permit acquisition. So getting anything from our building safety team. It does have to be verified by that commission upon completion. So essentially once that work is completed, you all as a commission, they would come back through and essentially show you all that we've completed our project. We've matched everything that's required of what you approved. Can we get the tax incentive? And so that would go into effect on January 1st of the following year. So same as our tax incentive currently. The next one is for new historic districts. I wanted to add this in here. I know it's not necessarily individual landmark designation, but I think it's just as important because it's looking specifically towards those owner-occupied residents. So residential properties that are occupied by a property owner in a new historic district are exempt from their city property or receive a 20% exemption on their city property taxes for the first 10 years of that newly created historic district. If they continue to be owner-occupied for the next five years following those 10 years, they can continue to get that same tax exemption. So essentially for 15 years, they can get 20% tax exemption off their city property taxes if it continues to be owner-occupied in that new historic district. Currently, we do not have anything for our historic districts. We only have tax incentives for individually landmarked properties. I have a question. Yes. Okay, so on the first one, the substantial rehabilitation, when it says require certification of the historic design review kit, if it's all inside, that's usually not our jurisdiction. So are they saying that they are going into the property to get approval that way? Yes. Okay. So even if it's HVAC and you're not seeing it, they would be required to go inside or get photographs or whatever it may be showing that that work is going to be taking place prior to approval. Okay, thank you. Am I ready to move on? Any other questions? Okay. So now we're jumping to Grapevine. So Grapevine, they created the Township Revitalization Program, also known as GTRP. So this was a nonprofit that was actually established by their city council. And this is to assist in preserving the cultural heritage of the original Grapevine Township. So there's a couple different incentives that come with this program. The first one is city staff provides architectural design assistance at no charge to the property owners to make sure that they're doing their preservation, restoration, rehabilitation accurately. The next thing is a matching grant program. So as you can see from here, owner-occupant residential uses, it's a two-to-one match, so they can get $10,000 max, and they only have to spend up to $5,000. But for their rental residential uses, so if you had a duplex and you're renting out both of those units, you would have to put up $5,000 and they could give you $5,000 for a one-for-one match. But one of the things that is interesting here is that you're allowed to request a waiver for more funds, but it does have to be that owner-occupant residential use only. And it does have to go through a review process, which makes sense. But in terms of if they need additional assistance, they... Let me backtrack. There's so many words on these slides that I'm trying to remember. Okay, near money. So essentially what I'm saying is if they want more money, they can do it. They're just going to have to prove it as to why they need additional funds and, like I said, only owner-occupant residents. In addition, they do accept donations, and they end up recapping them and preserving them and moving them to the township if they're threatened by demolition. And then they are actually made available for sale as a residence, which is pretty unique. That's weird. Is there a... You know, like, you can re-up it after 10 years. Are there any stipulations here on how many years, like, that matching health, and you can get it? So I'm going to get to that towards the end of the presentation when I do a comparison. Okay. Yep. Any other questions? I'll wait for the comparison. Okay. Okay, moving on to Fort Worth. So historic site tax exemption, similar as we've heard from other cities, it does require approval by staff before the renovation project begins, and it also has to have a COA, also a certificate of appropriateness request, made. And then at the end, it does require that landmark commission review and city council. So essentially as part of the historic site tax exemption, this increases the assessed valuation of the land improvements at the pre-renovation values, and it does last up to 10 years. So how you become eligible? Is that the amount equal to or greater than 20% of the assessed valuation of the improvements to be spent on rehabilitation? That's just pre. So they hold it with the pre-oppressed. So whatever improvements they make. Right. Your benchmark is a little... Yes, yeah. So if you continue to make improvements through those 10 years, that's fine because you're still at the 10 years prior in terms of your pre-assessed value. So that's what Fort Worth is working with, and then it goes into effect January 1st of the year following city council verification. Any questions? There's a lot of... We're jumping around. Okay, McKinney. So I actually was speaking with Keisha earlier. I'm really excited about McKinney and Plano, so I'll be very interested to see what you all think of their historic tax incentives. Once again, like I said, there's a lot of information. This is why you have the printouts. So in McKinney, they have a historic neighborhood improvement zone. And essentially, this is a defined area where they feel that they're needing building improvements specifically in historic neighborhoods. As part of this improvement zone, there are three different levels of incentives. The first one is if you're a historic marker, meaning you're a historic designated landmark. The next one is a rehabilitation incentive where you're cut off at 40 years. You have to be at least 40 years old, your structure, and then the preservation incentive. So level one, this is a one-time, 100% exemption, and it lasts 10 years. You cannot reapply. Once that 10 years is over, you cannot reapply again. So as I stated, you have to have received a historic marker designation. It has to be that minimum 50 years old, which you all are very familiar with. And the minimum investment has to be at least $10,000 in building improvements for the property. And it has to be done the previous three years from the date of the request for a marker incentive. The rehabilitation incentive is 50% exemption for 10 years. But what's interesting here, level two, level three, after those 10 years are done, you can reapply again. You can keep reapplying every 10 years for level two and level three. But this is the one-time only exemption. And as stated, you have at least 40 years. You have to have a letter of eligibility from the city saying that, verifying that proposed exterior or interior improvements qualify for that incentive. And you have to have no later than 12 months following that letter that the owner completes or allows to be completed the eligible improvements. This is -- and that's a 50% exemption. Basically, the exact same structure, preservation incentive, it's just 30% exemption. Similar to other tax exemptions, it is transferable upon the sale of the property. So it's tied to the property. It's not tied to the property owner, which is really nice. So it sticks with the property. But then you must reapply each year to the appraisal district and undergo yearly inspections. So each year, staff would go out January 1st or during the month of January, essentially saying, hey, are you meeting the requirements to be eligible for this tax exemption every year? If not, you have X amount of days to get it fixed or X amount of months. Okay, if you get that fixed, great, but if you don't get it fixed, then we take away your tax exemption. Any questions? Okay. So the next one is Play Now. So this is the heritage tax exemption program. So as bolded here, it's a partial exemption based on the improvements value on the heritage property on a yearly basis. So similar to McKinney, we kind of have like a tiered approach going on. They have their class structures, Class A through D. So if it's a Class A, it's exclusively for residential purposes and is designated as a local landmark. And they can potentially receive up to 100 percent exemption. If it's a Class B, it is occupied in whole or in part for purposes other than residential. It is also individually landmarked and can potentially receive up to 50 percent exemption. C and D, well, C is exclusively for residential purposes, is contributing to a local historic district. So that's where we're kind of pulling the historic district side of things. They can potentially receive up to 75 percent exemption. And then Class D is in whole or in part for purposes other than residential. So it might be a mixed use and is also a contributing resource to a local historic district. It can receive potentially 38 percent exemption. I tried to find out why specifically 38, because that seemed like an interesting number. I could not find out. I could not find out why. So I'm going to keep digging into that, but very oddly specific. I agree. But one of the great things about this as well, Plano Independent School District and Collin College is participating in this tax assumption program, too. So you have the city, the Plano ISD, as well as Collin College, who are both tax partners. Point of clarification. Denton ISD also has, like, they participate in that tax exclusion. Like if Dent were to have something like this, if they're a tax entity, we could ask. But I'm just showing an example. Yeah, so we could. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So in this instance or this example, Plano does participate in this program. I'm sorry, Ms. Tina. I think most school districts don't participate. Correct. Yes, most school districts do not. But this is one of the rare instances where it does. So I just wanted to highlight that and say that's that's pretty impactful. That's why I said it in my spidey sense. I was like, wait. Yeah, most ISDs do not. So once again, city staff would have to survey every year. It says yearly surveying, checking out, making sure that they're in compliance with this program. And then kind of just to show you all what that next step is, is they would allow property owners to appeal any repairs classified as poor because staff would be giving them a report saying, hey, you're not in compliance. We are rating you poor out of, you know, excellent, medium, whatever it may be. And then they either have to finish it within a certain amount of time or request a later deadline to complete those rated repairs so that they can continue to receive the tax exemption. OK, so this is where we're kind of doing the comparison. So Denton right now, as we discussed, is 50 percent of city property tax. You have for 10 years, but you can reapply. So you have to spend a minimum of ten thousand dollars in terms of improvement or rehabilitation or improvement and/or restoration to your property. Then when you look at San Antonio. So this is the historic district. That's why it has its own little level. But looking specifically at historic tax exemptions for historic properties. Residential, the property taxes are frozen at the assessed value prior to rehabilitation. It's 10 years. And then for commercial, there's no city property taxes owed for the first five years. But then the next five years, it's assessed at that 50 percent of the post rehabilitation appraisal after year five. So you're six. And those are set at those times like they don't reoccur. You can't reapply. Greatvine is a matching grant for owner occupied and rental residential uses. It's a yearly basis. So it's something that you can reapply for every single year. And just a reminder, owner occupied is ten thousand dollars max with a five thousand dollar match. Or rental residential is five thousand max with a five thousand dollar match. Fort Worth is the assessed valuation freeze of the land improvements at pre renovation values. It's 10 years. The amount is equal or greater than 20 percent of the assessed valuation of improvements be spent on rehabilitation. So that's what you're getting your 20 percent off of. In terms of McKinney, we have three levels of incentives. We have the 100 percent one time. We have the 50 percent and 30 percent, which can be reapplied for every 10 years. Level one, you have to spend a minimum of ten thousand dollars, same for level two. And then level three is five thousand dollars. In terms of Plano, it's a four tier class structure with one hundred fifty seventy five and thirty eight tax exemptions. And that's also a yearly basis. So did it say a minimum has to be spent? No. So it's improvements value. So it would be dependent upon what you're spending in terms of improvements. And then once again, I wanted to highlight specifically the new historic district owner occupied residents with the 10 years with an additional five years possibility. So kind of what I asked back in May, we have another new question. So what really I'm looking for is the city doing enough? Do you all think the city is doing enough to incentivize residential historic destinations? Yes or no? Why? And of the city and systems that were presented, which you like or dislike and why? It's a lot, but you have all the information at your fingertips. I'm going to throw out some word salad just to start it off, because the thing that I find really interesting in looking at the comparison of the other cities is I find certain facets that each of them do, which I assume is because of their their own kind of unique history in terms of like how much age that they're dealing with. Right. Like 40 years. Why not extend that to like 50 or 60 years? Well, maybe they haven't been there that long, but that might be something that might be a factor. And also, I'm finding very attractive the residential commercial distinction, the tier system in the sense that what it does is it helps to fulfill a couple of things that are in our matrix. Just to tie that back into what we're interested in is figuring out how to increase interest in residences and residential folks. And using, you know, just a benchmark, 10,000. And I see some of them, they're 5,000, which honestly, if you're living in an old place, that is not hard to hit. You're probably going to hit that in a year if you're renting, right? But as an incentive, I find that really attractive. I found that attractive idea just to be mindful of it. It provides an incentive, exactly what it's supposed to do. I guess the other observation has to do with, yeah, the tier system. Plano's pretty complicated tier system. And then, yeah, having an ISD weigh in, because, yeah, that's kind of unique to actually go and make the ask, right? It's like, hey, are you willing to give up a little bit if this helps preserve this district? So, as promised, that's just a little word salad, but I'm really fascinated, this is really helpful. By the way, thank you very much for this comparison, because it gives us a little bit of a yardstick to think about, because I guess my answer would be, are we doing enough? Probably not. So, not a yes or no. I'm not going to go with A or B, but I'll be like, probably not. But basically, how can we do better? Interesting enough, you mentioned like the school taxes. Yeah. I wonder, like, the way that our historic districts are set, it would only be certain. That's correct. So, if you gave up that, I mean, I'm all for asking, but it really hits just certain areas. That's right. If you think about that, too. So, I don't know how likely they would be. Well, I think that would be worth that. I think that might be worth something like an economic analysis to see if some of these are wealthier districts, because that's worth asking. Or some of them might be in the poorer districts. That's also worth asking, because in that sense, I think I would be inclined to say, hey, you know what, in a poorer district, I would ask, I wouldn't ask the ISD to contribute in. What I would do is basically say, hey, can we focus on some of those districts and maybe lean in with incentives instead of making it $5,000, make it $6,000. You know what I'm saying? Because some of those places that are more economically disadvantaged need maybe more attention and help. And to be able to flex it that way might be something I think that we could provide a good eye on with enough information to see which ISDs might qualify. You know, I'm thinking about Southeast End specifically. I'm thinking about what are some homes over there. They've donated a couple of homes to our Historic Commission, the Woods House, and I think there are a couple other properties over there, honestly. I'll defer to somebody, maybe we can bring in city staff to look at it, but I'm pretty sure that there are other quicker townhouses still over there that just haven't been, they're flying under the radar. Yeah, they're flying under the radar, because they're cheap and low cost. That's a point of clarification just to make sure I understand. You mentioned Commissioner Treat doing an economic analysis based on the district. You're talking about the attendance zone, depending upon where the structure is located, if it's in a certain attendance zone of the school district, that it would be a potential different level of incentive provided. I seem to be recalling, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but we only have the one school district that all of Denton is part of, so we don't have multiple school districts that we're dealing with. You mentioned district, and so given how the discussion was going, I think you meant attendance zone. I just want to make sure I was on the same page. That's a good clarification. Yes, thank you. Yeah, different attendance zones and different, you know, areas that are in need. Yes. Any other commissioners have comments, questions, thoughts? Well, I think we must never forget that in some of the poor areas in Denton State that may or may not be old enough to be historic, the people are having a real struggle simply to live, and they probably could never meet this $10,000 threshold. $5,000 might be working, especially if they're working with the landlord. Isn't that great on the matching program there? Yeah, the rental residential feature, a great find, right? Maybe you have a renter says, hey. Mr. McAdams, anything else? No, I just think we have to bear that in mind, because if we're doing something that we want, buy in from the general public, there's really nothing to offer to the poor people who have a historic house. Mr. Teflon, how about you? Well, just clarification on this match. Is that like the city's actually what's for great part? Somebody puts in $10,000, the city throws in an extra $5,000? Okay. Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, the $10,000 bet, because I mean, even though things are more expensive now, it's still a decent chunk of money. Are people really seeing over that tenure? And it's also just a clarification, maybe it's $10,000 at the beginning when you apply, right, to get this historic landlord designation. Oh, which one are you talking about? For ours. For ours? So you'd have to have the designation already, then spend the $10,000. So we don't actually even review. Unlike other cities, we don't review necessarily people's work because they might not require a historic landmark commission or HPO review. They might just be doing HVAC or something, and they have to bring those building permits as part of their package. But there's no oversight by the commission, unlike some of the others where before you even apply, the commission or staff would be doing a kind of overview, then they could apply and then we would make sure that the project got completed so that they can receive the exceptions. So having a little bit more, I guess, oversight of what's going on. Yeah, I thought that was interesting. Was it Plano or McKinney that they came in there and can say that your repairs report? That's Plano. Is that Plano? But the same thing goes for McKinney where they have yearly inspections. So I might be able to offer a little bit of insight on Plano's property. Since you're a more recent employee there than I am, but many years ago when I worked there, I was part of the staff team that would have to go out and assist with the inspections. And we had a set of criteria that we evaluated the homes. We were only looking at the exterior and what we could see from the public right away. So we weren't necessarily fully wandering in on people's property. But if it had a poor designation, then in all likelihood there was significant presence of items not being maintained. So one of the things that we would look for is if there was fencing, was the fencing being maintained? Were the pickets all vertical or were they experiencing leaning associated with them? With the structure itself, being that there's painted siding involved, was there exposed wood or what did it look like? All of the wood surfaces were protected because that in terms of property maintenance issues. But there were a list of criteria that we would look for. And people took the inspections typically very seriously, especially if we had someone who received a poor designation because then they weren't able to receive that full exemption. And so, you know, many times then it was the property owners contacting staff saying, because we'd send them a letter and let them know, and we would inform them of this and they're like, how much time do I have to get these items rendered, right? Because I still want to apply. But it was, you know, as the program is structured, it was to try to provide greater incentive for the residential properties. But, you know, we would go out every January, which is always a fun time to go to inspections in Texas. It was either beautiful days or really cold days or both. But it was fairly straightforward in how we administered. We tried to make it less subjective and more objective, hence the criteria. And we would go out in teams, right? So that a team of individuals is looking at a property. And so it's just not one person's opinion as it related to the enforcement of that project. And I don't know if Keisha had any more recent experience that I had with it. But it was fairly straightforward in the administration of the program. Sure, definitely. Do you have more? Yeah, you know, I don't have a whole lot more. I'm just looking at how these different students do things. Yeah, I think my thought also is just, you know, 10,000 seems like a decent shot, right? To put in for really the benefit is 50 percent city tax for 10 years. So are there any? I guess part of this is also the relatively new commission and also beneficial, hopefully, to some of the other new folks here. Is that, I mean, is there, like, is there this restrict your building to sell a house? Does it make it easier to sell a house? With the tax? Well, I guess with the tax exemption, but would make it easier to sell a house. But people look at it and say, oh, well, it's historic. Are there restrictions only you can do with your house? Also. The uses are not something that we necessarily have control over. It's more just the exterior of your property that we're concerned about. How about you? Yeah, I think a lot of my initial thoughts and sentiments, the ones that echo a lot of what's been said, I know I had some I was curious about the Plano ISD by end of things, and I was also curious about how sort of the enrollment zones work. Especially if there's a question says, like, you know, incentivization of residential districts, right, considering that attendance zone, I think it's really important. But I think a lot of my thoughts echo that, which have been said, and I'm also still learning a lot. So if y'all have more time in, I think that where I have questions are on the ones that have the assessed value before improvement and after improvement. And the reason is, is because after improvement, if I do something on the inside, nobody knows that the people that are assessing my house for value don't know what all I've done. Replacing HVAC does not get me more tax value. So that, I don't know, I'm a little iffy on that because I don't know that that's a benefit. I think it's a benefit. If you're going to do a complete remodel, and you're spending way more than the 10,000 that it could be seen, then I definitely could see that. So I don't really know advantages of that. That's my first thought. The other thing that I don't see here is a time frame, and a time frame of if you start a repair and when it has to be finished. And maybe that's all when they're fine print, but I didn't see that on any of those. So if it's a 10,000, 10,000 per year, like I can sit, I do a lot of different repairs. Here's my 10,000 for the year. Does that make sense? In terms of like if you're using Grapefinance example? Yeah, the ones that have, yes. So like Grapefinance for example, it truly just set a yearly basis and it's based off the fiscal year. So you would just have to utilize that. Okay, so not just on one project. Okay, that was another thought that I had. The other thing was, when you look at repairs, I think that 10,000 is a, this day and time, I'd say it is a large chunk of change for people to come up with right now. On the flip side, there's not a whole lot you can do for less than that. So that's where I'm going back and forth on repairs that people can do themselves. If we're talking about just a fence and doing fence, fencing, those types of things you can, that's going to cost you, you know, maybe a few hundred dollars, not really even in the thousands, although you can get there. I'm just telling you where my mind goes. You're going to think lady, you're crazy for all of this. But this is where my mind is going with it. Because when you do major repairs, only because I live in one of these homes, there is not a whole lot you can do for less than 10,000, even a new HVAC system, by the way. You know, so you think about those things. And so I think we have to think about all of that. I do think that 10,000 is a large chunk of change for people that could do smaller things to help the value, to help to restore smaller things that they could do. I kind of lean that that direction. I don't think that it has to be a big, huge remodel. When I say remodel, restoration, it doesn't have to be big, I think. So those are my thoughts there. Well, Councilwoman Stripley, on that note, I'm totally with you because the thing that kind of interests me about the $5,000 match, which is a lower match, because you're right. And I went to grad school starving in 1940s-era houses, and I did a lot of repairs and things myself in there. And that was part of the go-along with the guy that was written to me because he was restoring them on the side. And I was like, "Eh, I can do some work. He'll build the architecture. You bet." But you're right. One of the things that I see as being an advantage of this kind of lower, maybe rental residential $5,000 match is that people twofold. First of all, if they know they can get a match, then that may mean the difference between doing a patch job for $2,000 and doing it kind of right to hit that five. Does that make sense? And then the additional benefit to that is by participating in the program there on our radar. So that becomes an incentive, whereas that property may have totally been off radar before. That then provides a lower benchmark to get, again, this kind of lower threshold, but also lower income, right? This is a property that maybe somebody bought. I mean, yeah, the ones that I lived in in Baton Rouge for a while, good Lord, they bought them and moved the houses on a truck and put them down on a new foundation. It was like pier and beam stuff, like out of the late '40s. But yeah, that would put stuff like that maybe on our radar. What is our goal for an incentive? I think we have to think of that. Is the goal to have an incentive to have more historic structures come on board? Or is the goal for the incentive for them to keep up with what is there already, like to help restore, to help repair? That's right. Well, that's my fascination with the tier system, right? Which gets a little more complex is because I feel like that tier, like you've got to have some type of on-ramp, because then if, you know, there's some property owners, because honestly, we're also not dealing with single property owners anymore. I read a Fort Worth article that said one in four, one in three rental properties is now owned by a company. So this is an incentive that if they could see the appeal of that, would have a mass effect in pretty short order. I think, though, we see, I've seen over the last couple of weeks, there is a rental property on my street, and the gentleman that is occupying it, that's the renter, is interested in purchasing. And there would be a lot of repairs that would need to be done. So I think about that on, you know, you're purchasing something, then you had to turn around and you got to sink money into it, too. What would be an incentive here? How could we help? So to answer that question, are we doing enough? After seeing this in this conversation, I was with you on, I don't want to say yes or no, but I'm going to say, probably not. Probably not doing enough. There's my fault. I'll say I just want to jump in real quick in terms of my devil's advocate in terms of you're looking at rental residential. They qualify for state and federal funding, which owner occupied residential buildings don't qualify currently. So those corporations currently are equal. They can already be applying for those where owner occupied don't have that opportunity. So it's also looking at should we be incentivizing commercial and more of those income producing residential properties at the local level? Or should we leave that to state and federal and let's handle owner occupied buildings at the local level? So I just want to throw that into is kind of that's also another aspect of everything. And one of the things I just want to kind of also point back to. Die or did I just click? Okay, there we go. So kind of chair shriveling, how you're talking about. You're talking about how everything's it's expensive nowadays. But what these different programs are looking to do is especially I'm just going to piggyback to Plano because we were all kind of surprised at the Plano Independent School District is involved in Collin College. Those are in addition to your city property taxes. So if we look at our so say your city property taxes are $3,000 and you're getting 50% then you're getting 50% of your Plano Independent School District as well as 50% of your Collin College. So you're getting potentially $14,000 in savings on your taxes for that year to put towards maintenance of your home. Yes, because they're a community college district survey. When you have a community college districts, they they're a function of the county basically right so there is a or a couple to function of the county so you have your county district tax you also have your calling in our case of our college district tax. We have our independent school district tax and then you have the city tax on it so but yes it is it's typically the what Collin College charges homeowners the taxation rate is is very low compared to the other taxing entities. The one thing I would offer it so knowing that Plano's program has been a while or has been around a while and probably when the program was established. It was a growing community and so and keep in mind school taxation and how school funding occurs has truly evolved over the years. But, you know, their ordinance was likely adopted at a time when the community was growing. And so, the, I think it would be an interesting conversation if Plano were to if this program was trying to be rolled out today. I'd be curious as to whether or not the school district would be participating in the program today compared to when this was originally offered, because Plano in the early 1990s is very different than Plano today. The issues that the school district are facing are different. You know that just the overall school district financing and how that is today is very different. So, you know, I think, you know, if what we've heard from a couple of homeowners here in Denton is that, wow, would be really great if the ISD participated in in providing some sort of tax relief, because they find that that could be a benefit, especially for the owner occupied structures. To the point that was made earlier, I think we would have to do an economic analysis if we were to go to the school district and saying, hey, we would love for you all to consider participating in a tax exemption program based upon our numbers. Here's what we'd estimate how much of a loss in revenue it would be to the school district. You know, in exchange for the loss of revenue to your school district, you know, here's what the community as a whole benefits in the district. So we would have to show what benefits the school district potentially receives on the other side of things, right? As a result of the loss of revenue. I just think that the conversation is much different today when it comes to school district financing compared to when Plano's program was put forth. Do we know, you said they participate in it, but do we know how? Do we know what percentage, is it some percentage off of the tax for each one for Plano, ISD, and college? I believe it follows the same class structures, but I can confirm and let you all know. Okay. That would be, that would be worth knowing because if it's at 80 points, 100% or 75%, that's a lot. That's a huge incentive program, and I'm with you, Tina. I don't know that they would today. You know, we have school districts around, very near, that are closing schools, that are shortage of teachers, all of all of those things, so. Any other thoughts on that? I thought that was good discussion. It was interesting to see. I love that comparison of all of those and what they're doing and what, that's, I think that's neat, but I think that it's worth, my opinion is I think it's worth us looking more into and brainstorming more on what we could do. What city council would approve us to do? Well, so to that point too, like, who do we talk to, to see the level of interest in this, right? So, I guess point of order question for the chair is, is there something that we need to push forward, going forward, in order to look at something like this as an agenda item, or is something that we want to, more develop and through the matrix, this is already part of the matrix, and do we want to like fill it out a little more and say, hey. One of the things in the past that we've worked on, started working on, are things that qualify. What actually qualifies a restoration, a preservation, and it can be, I mean, do you want to put a, it has to be on this list, or it can be a whole other things, it's just how do you know, does that make sense? So, to me, we have to understand that side too, or is it just you spend that much on the property and you're going to get a tax exam. But I think that in previous councils, that has been their ask of us to come back and come up with a list, and I'm going to tell you that time, I was on that committee. It's really, it's hard to do. It's extremely hard to do. So, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. And just to be back off, what Chair Strickland said is that, in addition to that, council has mentioned in the past, some, the council has been split in terms of, should new improvements count towards a tax incentive, in terms of like a large scale improvement, versus something that actually keeps the character and the scale and the massing of the home intact. So what are we defining in terms of, where are we pushing the boundaries in terms of what is a historic property, essentially. Let me give you an example personally that I can give. Our home was built in 1942. A swimming pool was put in in 1960-something. Payback blocks is what the pool is built out of. I cannot tell you how much money I had spent on that swimming pool. I mean, I'm serious. But, is it preservation for a swimming pool? Do you see what I'm saying? Where I'm going with this? It was built, it still has the center box, it's really cool, but it takes a lot. I mean, I've had to redo the whole thing. I spent probably well over 10,000, you know, every so many years. So you think about that, which is not a structure, it's on the property, but it's not the structure. Do you want to just make it structures? So I look at all those things that can come in, that weave in, and you go, man, you know, it's leisure. It's the home. So, does that make sense to you guys? Contributing, does it contribute to the significance of the property? Oops, sorry y'all. Mission Halloween. I thought I blocked it, I guess. We're going to do Halloween tomorrow, you alright? I just turned that up to see the wide variety of what this task is. It gets granular, yeah. Because to your point, you know, if accessory structures such as freestanding garages that were detached were typical of how homes were built, you know, 50 years ago, and someone needs to rebuild or significantly restore their accessory structure, i.e. their garage, then, you know, would that be a qualifying expenditure or not, right? So, I mean, similar kind of like your swimming pool example. So it's, you know, this swimming pool may or may not have been something that was typically built back in that time when the house was originally constructed. Maybe it was, right? And so it's to your point that that fine granular level, you're right, counts at one point in time. We were going to look further into that. Yeah, it's something you have to define that, a place to start defining those types of things. Can I ask a question? We're a bit too meandering with this. Are you looking for direction from them on which of these strategies to go make a draft of, or? No, no direction, just more discussion. Okay, I just want to make sure we're not getting too off of what these local programs are and into what we think we could do, you know, a little less. Understood, yeah, more towards a matrix item. Yeah, if you have an idea you want to bring exactly, we have an item later for the matrix and you can talk about putting that on the matrix. I think just to kind of summarize the whole goal though of this presentation or these two presentations collectively has been to share with Commission what we currently do. What other cities do to get you thinking about whether or not we are doing enough when it comes to encourage historic preservation. If you think that we're not, then providing that guidance and direction or an item for the matrix at a later point to give us better direction on where we need to focus our efforts. We wanted to bring this forth because we've received a few inquiries or concerns expressed by residents who are owners of historic properties. We know that there are not nearly the amount of tax program benefits that are out there, particularly for owner occupied. So if our goal is to encourage preservation of existing historic structures, particularly from a residential use standpoint, then in the future we would be looking for your direction as to whether or not we want to advance that further or not. And we can bring it to your point at the time when we have a matrix discussion. That's a great note. So I'm going to change my answer to no, I don't think we're doing enough. Yes, I think we should probably revisit aspects of this. I guess I think we should look at these other comparable city models for ways that we might create a more robust program than the one currently in use. That would just be my desire to put that forward for discussion. To turn that into a motion. All right, thank you for that. We're going to move on to item for be HLC two four dash zero to zero on our agenda is to receive a report, hold the discussion and give staff direction on the historic landmark commission's request for local historic designation of eligible historic properties. Does anybody have a property that they wanted to present and give a two minute pitch. We have the floor. All right. So, it's gonna be. Do you need this now. So they're actually to them to the not necessarily to properties. The first is going to be the White House. I don't know if they're on our radar, you're not in the event proper. Part of it might be. Are you familiar with the White House community here. Okay. So, and so back in the day, there's a group of kids in the 1960s early 70s, created a community just north of the city here, and they have in ground houses, they're made out of concrete, they're definitely weird, funky, interesting. I've written several articles about them. I also am currently working with some people there on archiving, the things that they do, because what most people don't realize is the white hop community. Lenny even remembers this, they were actually supposed to be a network of these like, you know, self sustaining and they were into like green and solar and growing their own food and all this in the 1970s. And so they were connected by newsletters and also, you know, traveling. So that's one, white hop community. The second one is the Burger Place. I'd like to learn more about the Burger Place. Mr. Prostons, yes, because they're looking at retirement, they're looking at selling in like 30 seconds. Where am I? 38. Okay, done. Thank you. Thank you. All right, anyone else? So we do have to vote to have that placed on staff's agenda to reach out to them for potential land marking or in regards to the white hop community, it is not within city boundaries from my understanding. So that's something that we have to approach the county about to speak with the Denton County Historical Commission. We do not designate anything outside of the Denton County Historical Commissioners and the Commissioner's Court. So we'd have to connect with on that because the one that has jurisdiction or authority there. Yeah, yeah. So white hop, yeah, they would be dealing with state, federal or county level designation. Did we vote on Mr. Prostons a couple meetings ago? There was a discussion, but we did not, but there was no vote. Okay, so I'll entertain a motion for Cameron for us to pursue Mr. Prostons. You're going to make the motion? Talk to them, anybody that may need to contact it. I'll have them make contact. All right, this would be just to start the group, just to start. So do we have a second? I'll second. Okay. All in favor, raise your hand, please. I sort of think it would be a good idea to prep them first. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they may just get hurt if they know what I'm all about. All right, item 4C, HLC 24-019 on our agendas to hold a discussion regarding the Historic Landmark Commission Project Matrix. Yes, here we go. So we're at the matrix point. So, Commissioner Gillis, just to give you some idea of what this is. So at the end, this is a reoccurring agenda item, similar to item 4B. Essentially, it's any requests by either staff, myself as the HPO or the HLC in terms of additional research of topics that we're interested in. So as you can see from here at the top of the request, it was a request made for discussion regarding benefits for preserving historic properties and how other cities are incentivizing owners. So that was presented. So it's just giving a status update. To have it added to the matrix, you do need to at least a minimum of three people who want to support you in adding that to the matrix. But it's also items for Historic Landmark Commission's consideration and then annual updates. I'll give those. And then it does give future HLC meetings at the bottom. So just wanted to kind of give you a background. But Commissioner Treat, this would be the opportunity to add at this point. The motion to add items to revisit our historic preservation. Is this the plan or is it? Incidence. I'm going to make a motion. I'm going to see what we're discussing. Really, you just have to say what it is and when you just say it, I think you want the agreement and then raise your hand. So I just would like clarification. So to revisit, what do you mean to a discussion about trying to make it more robust and perhaps bring in ideas and incentives that are used in other places as a way to enrich the breadth, appeal and robustness of our program. Okay, so is there a second? We will take a second. Is there a second? Thank you for that. I want everybody to raise your hand. Okay, unanimous for that. Easy, easy. All right on to number five. Does any of the commissioners have anything else? Any business to discuss? No. All right. Any of the staff? Anything to add? I am going to adjourn the meeting. It is adjourned at 634 feet. - Thank you, excellent presentation. - Yes, it was.