Jul 16, 2019 City Council on 2019-07-16 10:30 AM (AMENDED)

Welcome everybody to this meeting of the Denton City Council on Tuesday, July 16th, 2019. It is 10.32 a.m. We've got a pretty full work session, pretty packed council meeting tonight. So just ask council's help and staff's help and concise presentations, concise comments, and we'll get through this. We'll probably be taking a break about an hour and 15 minutes just so that we can get up and move around and stay hydrated because I liken this to about a 12 hour flight. So we're going to try to take as good a care of ourselves physically as we can so we can move through this agenda. Our first item on the agenda is citizen comments on consent agenda items. We have one for consent agenda item for you, Jan Piper-Lunt. If you'll come to the front and state your name and address, your time will begin. Jane Piper-Lunt, 1205 North Austin, Denton. When y'all call for a staff report or work session, I don't hear you say, "I'd like a work session on this subject," and I want you to make it as difficult as you can for people by finding the crappiest backup figures you can. Yet that almost always seems to be the case when it involves homeless citizens in Denton. Maybe I'm just an idealist, but I would think as public servants you would want to do the very best thing for your citizens. Yet when it comes to homelessness, this usually is not the case. And you just accept what staff tells you is gospel. If you look at the charts I gave you from the National Weather Service, you will see they have caution, extreme caution, danger, and extreme danger. Yet staff only used extreme danger figures. According to Prevention Magazine, heat exhaustion can build up over several days and not even be detectable so that in a short time in direct sun it can bring on heat stroke and death. The chart says since heat index values are devised for shady, light wind conditions, exposure to full sun can increase heat index values up to 15 degrees. Also strong winds, particularly on very hot, dry days, can be extremely hazardous. Let's look at the statement about the cold weather. Hyperthermia is a dangerously low body temperature is the most common winter killer. Most people are surprised to learn that hyperthermia deaths can occur between the temperatures of 30 and 50 degrees. If your clothes are wet, then hyperthermia becomes even more likely. It would take the average person 45 minutes to an hour to walk for two and a half miles from our daily bed to Monsignor King. That's not the average homeless person carrying everything they own with health problems probably already dehydrated. There's almost no shade on McKinney Street, few to no places to get free water, and we're just talking about those 90 that use the services. Apparently the staff miserable is not good enough. They don't consider getting wet a problem in cold weather. If there was a natural disaster, say a tornado hit the town and Red Cross wanted to use the Civic Center, are you going to tell them no because they didn't give 48 hours notice? Of course not, because we're talking about the real people in Denton, not the homeless. But to the homeless, these conditions are a natural disaster on a daily basis. Salaried employees and most businesses have to work when they're told to, not when they feel like it. You, we own the building, the electricity, and the water. It's not like we have to go out and buy this stuff. The definition of discrimination is treatment of people or particular groups of people differently in a way that is worse than the way people are usually treated. You can rationalize this all you want, but I'm telling you, this whole ordinance and recommendation is based on discrimination against our homeless community. We treat our stray dogs better. Thank you. All right. Our next session will be. Oh, OK. Yeah, I just want to remind that we need to make sure we get in before the agenda items called with the blue card to be able to speak. So I'm going to make a concession at this time, but we need to make sure we so this is is Kevin. It's Kevin sample. Come on up, Kevin, and give us your name and address and what agenda item are you consent agenda item are you speaking on? OK, for you. OK, thank you, sir. I'm against it for the changes that's been made for the reason that I'm a veteran. I spent eight years in the military. I was homeless at one time. I'm doing a climate weather before it was implemented that, you know, you had the police station and the fire station. There was nowhere else to go. And now being that it's hot and I moved on, I'm able to I got my place now. But my sole purpose is to give back to make whoever coming out to me a little bit stronger, a little bit better giving hands up, not hand out. So to take away those warming and cooling station is very harmful. I know what it is to be outside in 19 degree weather before you was able to go sit in the police station. It was freezing. I know what it's like to be CT from public places because people didn't like us there. And to have someone to say that they don't feel comfortable or because of the way I may have looked, sometimes I may have smelled or whatever. You know, it's it was a lackluster effect for the fact that I'm still a human being. I want the basic thing that everybody else and didn't want. I want to be cool when it's hot. I want to be warm when it's cold. We all know that my senior king is going to be open and up for seven days, you know, but that's not some time till next year. And I was I'm on the didn't need it. Homeless leadership team now, you know, as well as I sit on the safety commission board to why? Because I wanted to make a difference. And so with that being said, to take that away now, we all know that dresses, we're going to be 100 degrees. And now at the police station, we let you in to get a drink of water. No, you can't come in. It hadn't even been voted on yet. No, you can't come in. Why? Because of the way someone look, smell, may carry a backpack and have a rollback or something. That's that's all their possessions. And even when it was implemented, some places they will call the police and get a CT from. Why? Because they didn't like the way that we look. You know what I mean? So I'm asking. I know that the police station is not a hotel or a homeless center. But if we could just hold off on it until my senior king is open for those seven days a week, because right now we have some inclement weather coming in. But because my senior king is ran by volunteers, they don't have time to get people in. And sometimes my senior king don't open. There are women out here that walk in that use the facility. Some of them have been abused. Some of them have been, you know, taking advantage of. And so they will go there because that was the safest place for them. And if you take that away from them now, you know, what what other places safe place in town? Police station. You know what I mean? Granted, one or two of them that may cause a ruckus. I'll tell you something about the homeless community. We tend to police ourselves, you know what I mean? And if we find out that someone is doing something that's going to take a privilege away from us, we send to sit them down and talk to them, explain to them that, hey, what you're doing is affecting all of us. You know what I mean? So I stand here alone, but I'm not alone. You know what I mean? So I hope and I pray that if y'all could just hold off on taking some of those public places away that we can go in and get water or feel safe or just to cool down or get warm or something like that until my senior king is open for those seven days a week and then maybe, you know, so that's why I ask. Thank you. I appreciate that. And what was your what was your address? 2017. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, Kevin. See no more blue cards. So we'll move on to agenda item two, which is request for clarification on agenda items. Request for clarification. Councilmember Meltzer. Well, I'd like to pull out H, but on L, I just wanted to say H. Yes. And on L, I'd like to just ask a question that I know the answer to, but just so the public understands. This is the one about the red flex cameras being taken down and us making an arrangement with red flex to do it. Is any money changing hands or contemplated to be changing hands in that in that transaction? Yeah. No. Okay. Thanks. I just wanted the public to know that. Thanks. Yeah. Councilmember Briggs, I would just go around. I would I'd like to pull item you. I have a question about B. Did you say B or B? B. B as in boy. Okay. Yeah. So it I'd like to ask if this needs to be put on hold until after the construction is done for detours or the timing of this this change. Yes, that's good morning. My name is pretentious deputy city engineer. And on this particular item, it is for changing traffic patterns. So what this ordinance will provide once it's passed is us to move forward with the design component. And we're working in parallel with the current construction. So the minute the construction is over, we can add signing and striping and then get the rerouting of traffic as one way. So this is perfect timing. If we wait more and go on to subsequent council meeting that may delay. And we will probably have to wait after the construction is done. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Well, I have several questions on item s and just should I ask them now or pull it for a. Well, we'll go ahead and just pull it for a presentation. Okay. Yes. So we can keep moving. Okay. So the ones pulled so far you and s. Council member Ryan is I want to pull item a and council member Briggs got the questions for be already for me. Okay. Council member armature. I wanted to pull e s and you I guess s and you had already been pulled. So then e. Okay. All right. I'm a customer of mayor protein. Do you have anything? No, I just a question for the city manager regarding you. The questions I provide. What's the best? Is it best to address that those questions during the other item? I don't know why how there's there's set in tandem how that works. The one on the consent agenda and also the other. We can we can certainly ask those questions during the work session about consent agenda. We're happy to verify those again. And I'll also make sure that the chief's here as well. Got it. Thanks. Yep. All right. And then Council member Davis. I'd like to pull a and b. I guess we already have a poll and we have some questions on B. But I don't need a lot of debate on it or anything. I just like to consider individually. Okay. So to help staff, we're going to go down through these ones that have been pulled to determine what exactly is the goal so that we can make sure that the information is accurate and correct. And if there's no goal except just to have us pull it for a separate vote and we won't have a presentation. Hey, is there a full presentation desired on a council member? No. No. Okay. Any presentation from your perspective on it? No, I mean, we've we've done a work session on this and I just feel differently about the outcome. Questions on a. Anybody going to have questions on a. All right. So we'll just that helps you, Mr. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Mayor Pro Tem. Yeah, I think the just the question would be just a review of what because we we have this in work session. So a review of that sort of recap. Right. Exactly. Thank you. B. B was pulled. Somebody pulled B. Yes, I think I pulled P just in tandem with a that the projects go together. I put it in the same category as a be nice to have a refresher on what the options are. And I just like to vote. Okay. All right. E. Yes, go ahead. Yeah, I definitely wanted pulled for individual consideration and public discussion because it's a essentially amounts to a policy change. Okay. All right. H. I just want a discussion of the bidding process. Okay. L. That was you. Was that you, Councilmember Meltzer? Who is L. Oh, you got a question answered. Never mind. I had it underlined but not circled. So it's my my my problem. Sorry about that. I apologize. Yes. Yes. So I just I have several questions about about the parts, the timing, the operations cost. Okay. So just to could would it be possible maybe to get those questions? I mean, that doesn't mean that we're only held to those questions, but maybe to get those to staff ahead of time. So that maybe they can at least or if you have already, then they'll they'll have an opportunity to but if not, don't worry about it. That's just just a suggestion. You we pulled you. So what what? Yes, go ahead. That was at least two of us. And just for a separate vote and also to get public discussion for people who will be there in the evening who couldn't be here in the day. Okay. All right. Oh, yes. Councilmember Briggs. Yeah, I also pulled it because there's a work session on it. And in case we have any other changes, I thought it would be good to go ahead and have that pulled as if we had any changes to it from the work session. Sure. All right. Fantastic. All right. So to recap, we have pulled agenda items A, B, E, H, S, and U. Anybody have anything different? Yes. Nothing different. Point of clarification on you and in the work session, just so staff can get a heads up. My question is going to center around the two senior facilities and statistics kind of add out. Okay. Just to give them a heads up. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. Fantastic. Now we're going to take our first break. Five minute break. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. All right. I'm kidding. So we'll move on to our work session reports. Work session 3A is receive report, hold discussion, and give staff direction regarding the Board of Ethics recommended amendments to the ethics ordinance and city attorney's role in relation to the ethics board. Who will be presenting that? I'd like to make a comment before the presentation if I may. Sure. I'd request that we postpone this item because I've got a pending hearing. And so that, you know, apparently that decision was made to go forward. So I just want to say before that I'm going to step out and not comment either way on some of these items because I feel the argumentation and discussion on those items may be construed to have bearing on my own pending hearing. But, you know, on the items that have nothing to do with that, I will just leave you with my support for items 2, 3, 4, and 7. And if I may, either after or before, there are a couple of other items that were not on the list that I would like to ask about and have discussion on. Okay. So are you wanting to do that in the work session today? Yeah, I would. I don't have an opinion about or preference on whether, you know, we hit my two, you know, kind of other contributions before or after. Okay. What we'll do is we'll go through the presentation and take care of those items and then we'll come up. Well, you can rejoin us and then ask your questions and we'll try to respect your request to steer clear of something that may have to do with what you're describing. So, yeah, you bet. Okay. Who's Laura, you up? Okay. Yeah. Yes, go ahead. Okay. So City Council got the letter from the Board of Ethics and actually Councilman Davis originally wrote the letter because he was on. He was the former chair of the board. And then when we got together recently for another meeting, we added some things to the letter and kind of the overarching thing about the letter is that this is new to all of us. So we kind of want guidance on what y'all want from us, whether y'all want us to write out new pieces of the ordinance for y'all's approval or whether y'all want to give us guidance or whether we just tell you all the problems and you want to write them. We're really not sure what to do and we didn't want to have a bunch of board meetings about conflict of interest just for them to be a waste of time. Okay. So the first thing up is the conflict of interest. There's been, you know, it's been covered a lot in the media and there's been a lot of hearings and complaints and advisory opinions about the conflict of interest and the suggestion, the consensus of the board was whether it should fall in line more with the general public's understanding of the conflict of interest. So what I'd like to know is what how the council feels about that and how the board should move forward regarding the conflict of interest. Okay. What I think what we need to do is understand first of all what this work session is is sort of the purpose of this work session. And so what I'm hearing you say is that what you're needing as the chair of the Board of Ethics or what you're wanting is you sent a letter with several recommendations, seven, and it sounds like your first question of inquiry. And before I do, if I could get somebody from technical staff because my charger is not working on my computer and I just I'm running out of battery. So what I'm understanding is you're wanting to have some direction on the process, you know, moving forward. How are we going to number one consider these recommended changes from the Board of the Board of Ethics and who's going to move forward with either drafting those or providing specific language and things such as that is that is that sort of understanding is that's especially correct for number one, some of the other ones are a little more black and white. Okay, we think this and do you know they're more. Yeah, they're more number one. Yeah, number one's the one that we should come. I feel like it might be a larger discussion about number one versus two through seven. Okay, right. Then I tell you what let's do. But let's take two through seven first, because I think Councilmember Meltzer gave us some of his his ideas so so on two through seven. Those are just kind of specific recommendations on either some wordsmithing and or some just very specific policy statements is that is that. Yes, that compared to one. Yes, they're a lot more specific. Did you want to go through them or well, I mean, I guess I just will open it up for questions on two through seven, and we'll come back to number one because I think that's more substantive, and I want to take care of the sort of low hanging fruit councilmember armature. So, I want to actually respond to the, the first thing you said about the pro about the process and thinking of and thinking about how to go about the process, I would prefer and I wonder how others feel if to you know prefer versus get starting with two through seven is starting just by talking about the process, the way we're going to go, and then going down those items. I don't, I don't mean that's how you need to alter your presentation but as far as our discussion goes. That would be my, my preference. Who does, who, who, who starts with the process or who actually facilitates the process. Yeah, exactly. And how much we involve the public how much is going to be counsel, then, and board or first board then counsel, counsel board you know what some whatever we want to do and however much we want to involve the public, and then kind of go on to addressing these, these individual items that would be my personal preference because for me that's kind of the big, the big issue is how we're going to go about this. Well, so this is what I want to do then I want to get the chair of the Board of Commission, the ethics boards perspective on the recommended changes that you know, your, your, your advocacy for those if that's what you want to do and then as we get into the process discussion to see exactly what your thoughts are on the process as well because we're not going to resolve all of these issues here today. So to me we want to hear from the board of ethics and the chair on here are recommended changes. Sounds like your question is, how do you want us to be involved. In essence, yes. Yeah, how do you want us to be involved. And I will say on two through seven, like I said that I think those are just, we think, we think this should happen, but then on one on more kind of bigger picture ideas like one conflict of interest. One where we're not sure what what you all want the process to be. Okay. All right. Councilmember Davis. Should we ask Mr. Mr Meltzer back in for this part of the conversation, and I don't know that he had an issue with. I think he was just trying to avoid the big conversation on number one. But as far as process and two through seven I think well I haven't decided if we're going to, we got to figure out how we're going to do this so two through seven are there any objections to those. Yes, ma'am. Yeah, no, that's what I was, again I think we've talked about everything but what you asked, and so I'll try to start that conversation. So, two through seven, starting that, and I'm going to say I don't, I don't think this meeting is the one where we start at 1030 to then reconstruct the ethics ordinance today I'd be hard fast against that. The only conversation to be had. I don't think the day is that day on specifics correct. We have succinct questions that were asked of us and ask, and I don't think it's today is the day to go outside of that and reconstruct other things, because I think it's, it's time spent away from direct questions we were asked so I think we should tackle those today. Another day where we have more substantive conversations on how a complaint is filed etc etc that can be for a different day and that's just my opinion, but succinctly two through seven. I was provided the example thank you staff for number two that makes sense to me, and that's the whistleblower protections for more on the employee side of things. I would solicit the city manager if he has any concerns about that that's more his lane, but that makes sense. I don't know that that applies as much to an elected official. I just don't know that those protections are are lined up or is is succinct. Okay, that's my thought on to the candidate for office being probably that prohibition, I don't agree with, unless it's applied universally to every board every good I just can't go there. I don't want to carve this one out. And then, lastly, I look at four, and I'm a little confused I understand the answer to be true but I thought we had put in a way so this is the advisory opinion in a way to appeal that to the full board to get a decision. I thought that was baked in but if that's not. I'm on the fence there I think an advisor opinion should, should you be able to then take that to the full board but I just, so for me I think that process, I'm okay with the force I want to take an advisory opinion to the whole board. I think the method to do that it's almost like you should then report your own ethics violation, and have the full board review it so I don't know another mechanism to trigger that right you know it's like if you think it's an ethics ordinance violation, report it, and then you'll get in front of the whole board. Otherwise, here's what that that advisory opinion should should give you whatever direction you need to then make a decision. Okay. And I believe Councilmember Melzer before he left, said that he was okay with two, three, four, and seven. And if somebody has something different than that, be sure and let me know. Councilmember Davis. So, first to process my. This board is a little different than others. Some of our boards are required to have certain professionals on them to have certain expertise. And this is one of those. I think that you have the personnel available. And, and if we need to they have the resources available to them to give us more concrete, even up to the point of ordinance language. So my preference would be for for process. I think number one is a standalone issue that deserves a bigger conversation than like Councilmember Hudson said, just today at 1030 starting to work session. However, the others that we go forward with my, my preference for the process would be that the board themselves give us more not thrown Laura and the other attorneys on the board under the bus but give us more concrete suggestions and recommendations because they're the ones who have had to hear these matters and have bumped up against some of these issues. And then leaving number one for its own. It's its own creature and needs to be dealt with I think at the council level, kind of going down the list. I think I support number two. I think the original intent there was that lay people may better understand the term accused versus respondent. However, it does bring kind of that element of prosecution to it. I think I think my preference is that we use the word respondent instead of accused. Number three, I think this one's kind of a no brainer I understand the confidential confidentiality concerns we had. Number three is the recommendation that we give a copy of the complaint to the accused or the respondent. Initially, when this board was conceived, the advice the preliminary hearing that was supposed to take place was intended to be somewhat confidential that it's not something that's politicized. It's not something that's publicized when it goes to a full board hearing. That's when the public finds out about it. And that's when everybody gets a copy of the complaint. However, in practical fact, the way it breaks down is the accused is on the spot in the media and in the public and with their friends and neighbors having to answer questions. They don't even know exist yet because they haven't seen a copy of the complaint. So I think in fundamental fairness, if every point of this process is going to be in the public sphere, then the complaint ought to be made made available at least to the respondent. Number four is whistleblower protection. I think this is something I don't see a lot of potential for abuse, and I think I see a lot of potential good that could come out of just the concept is good fences make good neighbors. If city officials know that whistleblower protections are there, that's one more thing. One more good thing in place that I don't see a lot of potential for abuse in. On skipping down to number six advisory opinions have been an issue for this board because the way it works now is the chair convenes a panel of three board members to issue an advisory opinion and those same three board members. It's kind of like when you have something hurt the circuit court by three judges and then you ask the whole rest of the court to rehear the whole matter and those same three judges get to vote again. We also even though I was kind of talking up the lawyers on the board a while ago, advisory opinions are very fact specific. They're very people will rely on them going forward they establish precedent. And so kind of merit pro tems point, asking the person to ask for an advisory opinion and lining out all the contours of potential conflict of interest. And then they have to decide do I go through with this or not I know what's going to happen next. And then the board, we've kind of seen how that plays out already. My preference would be that we remove advisory opinions from a three member panel and put them in the hands of either special counsel or a or the board chair or something like that where it's not an opportunity to kind of take multiple bites at the apple and maybe get different results and maybe get wildly different results from one step of the process to the other. So reconsideration of the advisory opinion, the reconsideration is, as the mayor pro tems said, you get a full hearing after you've committed the conflict of interest or not. The advisory opinion, it's not baked in there already that you get a rehearing of the advisory opinion, you just get to have a full board hearing after you've maybe stepped into a conflict of interest. So I think it would behoove everyone if we move that out of the kind of the panel setting and more into an individual and an individual special expertise making those advisory opinions. I know as a council member, if I'm asking for advisory opinion about what my conduct is supposed to be going forward, I want that opinion coming from someone with expertise in the area. I want the best advice I could have. Otherwise, I find myself on the front page of the newspaper. And then number seven, vacancies. I don't have a problem with that. It's just, historically, it's very difficult to fill vacancies. I don't know if that's something we can reasonably dictate that vacancies will be filled within 30 days. I think priority, sure. But what happens when we don't and how are we supposed to enforce that? Okay. Mr. Mayor, I don't know how we want to do this, but can I respond? Of course. Absolutely. First of all, as far as giving the language, on number one, we weren't going to give language without more direction. And two through seven, I guess we would just like, if you would like language on those, I think those would be a lot easier for us to get out. Sure. As far as the advisory opinion, we talked about the reconsideration, but I think based on what Councilman Davis says, there would be a problem of venue shopping amongst the board to get different, and you get different answers, and that could cause a problem. And I'm not exactly sure how to fix that. And lastly, as far as the vacancies and then being hard to fill, we put that in there because we were really in a bad spot, I don't know, the last year almost, or the last six months at least, of people taking leaves of absences and people resigning from the board and moving. And it got to the point where I think it was like me and Deborah Cosmo were on like every single board every time, and she's an alternate member, and we didn't have enough for a quorum, I think, at some points. And so it just put us in a bad spot, and I'm not sure how we fixed that, but maybe if we just get a full board and as quickly as possible since kind of we have deadlines and timelines to work under, so we need people on the board to meet those deadlines and timelines for you all. So those are my comments on that. Okay. Council Member Reed. So I'm good with two, three, four, six, and seven. I don't have really any issues with those. On one, on item one, I would, on the conflict of interest, this body took a shot at it, and this is, you know, where we are. So I would like the ethics board to provide us some language or some recommendations, and then we could take those back here and discuss here, and then look at the charter recommendations as well as you write the new recommendations to us. So that is where I am on that one. I would like for you guys to give us a little something and then we could discuss it here and then provide direction back to you on the final. And on the running for office on the board. I'm not really, I feel like you know it should be applied. I know that this board is different than a lot of boards, but I don't know. I feel like if somebody wants to run, they could resign the board. I don't know that we should put this in the rules that they can't run. Okay, I'm just going around the horn. Councilmember. Councilmember Ryan. Thank you, Mayor. Yeah, I think until I do believe the board should give us further advice on recommendations and number one. And number two number three are fairly easy to work our way through. I think when we get the new advice on number one it's also going to cut back on the number of advisory opinions, if we get more clarity on what those conflicts are. And I'm in agreement with Councilmember Davis and hospice on on how those are working just the way that we're set up right now is not necessarily the best way to go about it that there are changes that need to happen. Number five, I mean even even within the council we require that you resign as of your effective date but you don't have to be off the council while you're running. So, I'm just can't get behind a candidate for office not being able to, to be to remain on the board. While running in vacancies. That's just one of those things. Like everything else we just need to get those filled as quickly as possible. Okay, Councilmember Armitage. So first, first I want to thank you for the, the letter and the committee it's an excellent letter, and I agree with all of the recommendations I would say there's kind of eight is I see if there's eight recommendations the eighth one being right before the list of recommended code amendments. There's a sentence that says, if the council chooses to draft specific amendments itself or delegates test to the city attorney, we strongly recommend that the council consider provisions of the model ethics code and then I really appreciated that you had that that link to that standard kind of generic model ethics code that I know was not just arbitrarily selected on Google but have learned that, as you know, that that this is a template that a number of cities have used so what I'm going to recommend is that when we have that discussion about conflict of interest, we also at the same time, discuss the this model ethics code, and, and consider it at the strong recommendation of the board. I myself think it's a really good template to follow and considering that so much of our current ordinance what's good about it. Of course we're going to be focusing on what's what we think is broken or could use improvement but there's stuff that's good in it and a lot of that is, is replicated in various ways in that that model, model ethics code. So I want to recommend that. So like I said I support all the others. I wanted to say, just kind of a few words about the number five and and six, since people have singled that does out. If Denton doesn't include number five in our ordinance, or rather if we continue not to include it. That says that if you are a candidate running for office, you need to resign from that board it doesn't mean that you can't serve on the board and then decide to run for council it just means that once you make that decision, you have to step down. The reason why that is different than any other board or committee, why for instance in the San Antonio ordinance. It says, you know, you can't be a candidate and serve on that but it doesn't say anything about, you know, you can't be on the San Antonio Public Arts Committee and not an apply for office at the same time is because, you know, this is the only government part of this government body that decides on specific individuals and individual behaviors not just kind of policy as behavior but decides on individuals so that is why that is, it's so fundamentally important not just to me, but to all, all good, good ethics code so I think it's important people realize that as for number six. It's very important to me that it be a collective decision making process and that it not come from any one person. So having gone through the process myself. If it falls to one person, it feels much would feel much less democratic, not just to the, the person, whom the complaint is about but also to the public. So anyway, that's where I stand on this letter. First as far as the candidate for city office, I just wanted to add it's not in the letter, the definition of the ordinance of candidate under to to to six nine or six seven my handwriting is really bad sorry. It's any person running for public office and we talked about any person versus city, and then we decided, we thought it was just city people running for city public office and not other public offices and so there might be, if we do change that that's not in the letter but it could mess. We could might have to mess with the definition of candidate. And then as far as advisory opinion recommendations. What council member armature was saying, as far as one person. I also think that that might be kind of a burden to put on one person I work full time job I have two babies. So it would be really hard to get those back quickly. And in addition to the democratic part and so I think outside council might be a good thing but then we run against another discussion we had recently on the Board of Ethics that's not on the agenda today as far as how often we, we pay outside council to give advice so that advisory opinion and consideration I think it does have some other things to think about. Real quick, yeah, yeah, so sorry I actually I forgot what what I would consider the most important thing which kind of goes with the conflict of interest in my recommendation that we have that discussion when we discuss the model ethics code. For me it's really important I just want to say this for the record that we have interactive public involvement in the process and I would like to see when we do that when we discuss the model ethics code and conflict of interest rules and other provisions that there be some sort of portal like we have for the, for the budget for the bond committee, where people who might not be able to attend meetings can, you know, go on the website and you know, recommend your, you know, give, give your, your take on the, the ethics ordinance ethics code and, and your suggestion. I think I think that's essential given that the whole point of ethics ordinances is for the public trust. Okay, anything else, Madam Chair. I'm gonna call Paul in if you don't mind, I'm gonna call Paul into, because I think what we're going to talk about now is, is the process because I've heard, I mean I've started making a list of who's for what but this is what I feel is going to be the best course of action. Let me just say, Councilmember Briggs says we had a shot at it, sort of implying that somehow we didn't get it right. I'm going to tell you, this process was long, it was arduous. Many people sitting in this room were very supportive of it in the end because we all, but the key is when you start trying to implement something, you have things that happen that you have to correct. I was sort of surprised when I saw in the letter that we want conflict of interest to emulate more of state law, because the whole point of this discussion early on was we want it harder than state law. I just found it quite amazing that, but that's okay, but I don't want people to lose sight of that. I don't want people to think that somehow we've got some crazy ordinance that was just created out of thin air that didn't have some kind of process about it that somehow has now become fatally flawed when people in this room support it, but we all know there's some things that we can do better. But let's not forget the historical context of this. So I don't have an issue with asking the Board of Ethics to, you know, begin to look at some of these -- we've given sort of guidance on two through seven, and the conflict of interest, you know, certainly you can bring back some recommendations for us. As far as carte blanche accepting the model code of ethics, I will reject that without having seen the whole thing, because some of the things I've read, you think we have enforcement problems now, you think we have subjective issues now, well, that will be magnified. We're going to rely upon, at least my direction would be, to ask the Board of Ethics to go through and to provide us some recommendations on the conflict of interest provision with whatever tools that you want to draw upon. If you want to draw upon the model ethics ordinance, that's fine. If you want to draw upon other ordinances, that's fine. But I don't have this compunction or this -- I don't feel compelled to accept someone else's ethics ordinance carte blanche because somebody else did it. I mean, we don't -- if we did that, then we don't even need a council or PNZ because we'll just take other people's ordinances. We can do it. We did it before. We can do it again. So I'm okay with that process. Is there an objection to that process of asking the Board of Ethics to come back with some recommendations on the conflict of interest, come back with some recommendations, modifications on 2 through 7 because -- and we might have more when Councilmember Meltzer rejoins us -- to give us some -- we've expressed all different opinions on 2 through 7. Some don't want -- some of them, some want them all. Some want a variation of that. So I think that the Chair, Madam Chair, you've heard sort of the comments. I know some of the Board members are here. They've heard the comments as well. So I think that's a good starting point. Councilmember Armitage, hold on just a minute. I want to call Councilmember Meltzer in here in just a second and we're going to get him involved in this conversation. So is that okay with you guys? You said you'd be willing to do that? >> Let me ask for a couple of clarifications. So 2 through 7, do you want actual language for the code? >> I mean, if you want to -- the only reason I hesitate on that because we don't have -- I don't know if we have a consensus on a lot of it so I'd hate for you to go to all of that kind of effort. I think if you were to go back and listen to some of the feedback here, then incorporate some pretty specific recommendations and if you want to translate it into code, that's certainly your prerogative. So yes, I think I'm going to leave that to your discretion. >> And secondly, as far as conflict of interest, there hasn't been like a whole lot of guidance on that. You all just want us to come up with that or is there more -- because I mean, we had put the state law and as you said, the state law is actually more lax as far as when a conflict of interest is and we put something about the general public and what the general public thinks of conflict of interest. Should we just go with it and send y'all something or is there any more guidance? >> We're the ones that ultimately make that decision. What the general public thinks about it can be very kind of subjective. But again, apparently you have a set of tools that you can use to determine that, whether it be public input, whether it be other ordinances. But yeah, I mean, let's make sure that we started down this given direction from a lot of different sources and so if we need to change direction, no problem. So yes, I think give us what your recommendations are. Councilmember Armitter, go ahead real quickly. >> Well, yeah, so we've heard one person's opinion. My opinion is I would love to see, and I'd be curious to hear others too on the committee, on the council, I would love to see a portal on the website for public comment on both the conflict of interest issue and the model ethics ordinance that is included in the letter and our current ethics ordinance and that there to be enough time for the committee, the board, sorry, to be able to read some of that public input. I think actually that the general public's views on all this are more important than our own and then the ethics boards because the whole point of having an ethics ordinance is for the trust of the general public. >> I appreciate that. I really, I mean, I appreciate you reiterating your position and what you're asking for. So is there any comment? I mean, we didn't have any comment when you made it, but is there comment on the portal and things such as that as far as that idea? >> Yes, I remember Briggs, you had a question I think other than that, but if you want to comment on that, that's fine too. >> Well, it was just the, I'm okay with a portal or some type of place to leave a comment or something for the public, but I just wanted to go back to what you said because you're absolutely correct on the conflict of interest, that this, at the time, council wanted to go above and beyond state law because we didn't think it was enough. >> The general public gave us, we heard from many people about that. >> Right. And that's why in my initial comments I said go back to the charter recommendations because some of those came out of that. And so I don't want to lose sight of where we started from. >> And so that kind of led us down this path, but just to give you direction on that, I still feel the same way that the state law is not as strong, and so I'm still from that position, just me personally. You asked for guidance on that. Thank you. >> Council Member Husspeth? >> Yeah, I just want to let you know, I've heard you and that you don't want to, you need more guidance on number one, and I wish we could do that as a body, but I think it's important first to speak to the public comment thing. I mean, our email addresses, and this is the most active bunch on social media, and we get emails we solicit, we get unsolicited emails. This ethics ordinance and body has been in the news nonstop, so I think there is a portal, and it's called first.lastname@cityofdenton.com for any individual sitting here. And so that comment is available, and they can do that right now, and there doesn't need to be anything set up. There's no announcement that's top of everyone's mind. We had a very public process drafting this, and maybe a summary of all those. And I know they've come out before, but all the opportunities people had to speak, and I'll note that anyone can come speak at any city council meeting. We're here every Tuesday, and there's an opportunity at the beginning, and when we're here at 630 to speak on any topic at any time. I think that's covered. I really do. I think you can come talk to us at any point in time about any topic, any week. And so I don't see a need to have staff create another portal other than you can, and there's a button where you can email all of us one click from the website. So there's plenty of opportunities to meet that need, I think. Succinctly, when you're talking about the definition, I think that's absolutely imperative. And so what I want to do is, Mr. City Manager, if someone could email me those dates that we had those conversations. Because I think that is critical to understand when we met with Mr. Bourquez and just the dates and what we talked about, almost like an index. Because what I want to do is go back and watch that myself, because I can tell you the exact language, I just can't. I want to cite it. I want to have it where I can look at it. But the just of it is, what we were tasked with is not only the, not a conflict, but the appearance of a conflict was the exact words that we were given and specified. So to walk that back at all is interesting to me, and I'd like to understand why people want to walk that back. But the fact of the matter is, we were tasked with beyond just a conflict, general public, because we had that conversation. It was the appearance of a conflict. They wanted a prohibition against that. So I look forward, I'll go back and watch those and have succinct. But for me, I think the definition works. I think if there's succinct, if there's absolute changes in there that do not work, I think that doesn't mean we throw out the whole thing. That means we rework kind of the interior of the definition. But I think the message was clear, if you go back and look at what the citizens voted on, and it was, and what the board was tasked with initially, it was beyond the appearance of a conflict. So it's a tough standard, but that's what was asked for, and I'm happy to live by that. >> Real brief, Council Member Armitage, real brief. >> So I completely agree about appearance of conflict. Interestingly, those words don't, they don't appear in our current ethics ordinance from what I could see, appearance of conflict. But I agree with everything that you said, that this was a big issue when Council formed the ethics ordinance. I wasn't on Council at the time, but I hope we can put that in there when we go back to having that discussion. >> Yeah, I'm going to, depending on how that shows up, I will have some pushback on that, unless it's a very objective standard, because that is a very subjective standard, and so I need to see language on that regard. So we're going to hear from Council Member Davis, then we're going to, is there a problem with the process outside of the portal? Is there a problem with asking, tasking the Board of Ethics to come back with some recommendations? This body eventually is the one that approves it, so there's going to be things we may agree with and some things we may not, but is there a philosophical or process issue with charging the Board of Ethics with helping us craft some potential modifications? Yes. >> Yes, to exactly your question, yes, I would almost change that request that they give bulleted things they want in, but not to task them with crafting the wording. But here's things that we think it needs to encompass, and I think that to me is- >> Sort of like what they did in the letter? >> Yes, I think that's more fair. >> Okay, all right. I don't have an issue with that. >> And that's as far as just number one? >> No, I think that's as far, I think it's, whatever you guys, whatever the committee wants to recommend to Council, it's not necessarily specific language that will simply be inserted, but it will be specific concepts, specific issues that then we can sort of massage that. So I don't think it's, from what I've heard, I could be wrong and we're going to call Council Member Meltzer in here in just a moment, I don't think it's limited to one through seven. I think it's to look at it and to see is there something that needs improvement that may not be there, is there something that can be tweaked? Because in the end, I'm going to want to know what your recommendations are as compared to what the ordinance we currently have, as compared to whatever ordinance that you all use to have those recommendations, if you used another ordinance or some model ordinance to do that. Yes, Council Member Davis, and then we're going to wrap this up until we get Council Member Meltzer back in here. So as far as guidance for the Board on the number one in the conflict of interest, we've used terms that we all kind of know, but I want the general public to be kind of more aware. When we talk about the state law and the model code being looser or tighter than ours, there's very specific ways that ours is tighter and covers more ground. There are many more types of conflict of interest than simply financial. One of the key ones that ours loops in that's left out of state law and the model code leaves completely alone is employee employer. And I've used lots of different examples over the last few months, but I'll use myself. If the citizens of Denton want me, a county employee, voting on multi-million dollar inter-local agreements on roads with my employer where my employer could hypothetically bring pressure to bear on me or I could bring pressure to bear on them for one outcome or the other. I have no financial benefit there, but my employer has either a great advantage or is at a great disadvantage because I'm an elected official and I have this role. So one of the things that our code does and that the public asks for specifically to Councilmember Briggs point about the charter recommendations is that we protect against certain kinds of conflict of interest that have nothing to do with financial benefit to the person who has the conflict. And there's nothing wrong with having those conflicts. You just simply step back from the table for those issues. The model code for all its benefit has nothing at all about, just as an example, employee employer conflicts. And that's one of the big things our code does. It also wraps in other types of conflict that would not necessarily be a financial benefit to the person with the conflict. So that's not to say our code couldn't use some help and it maybe could be clarified or maybe there's some public education. But I think there's a real danger that if we go just back to quote unquote the model code, which to my knowledge, no major Texas city has just adopted the model code. They've made tweaks to it. We lose a lot of protection in Denton if we go back to the model code. It's not a gold standard. It's a starting point. And we've gone beyond that in Denton. And I think, too, as far as the process of public input, I'm going to leave that up to the board's discretion. I mean, within the purview of city management and just parameters of just good governance and efficiency. So I'm going to trust that process with the board and with staff working together to figure out what's the most efficient way and best way to do accomplish the goals that you're given. So what I want to do is call Councilmember Meltzer back in and sort of give him a summary of just what the consensus has been as far as moving the process to the Board of Ethics and then see what other input he may have on items other than one through seven. Do we know where he went? Okay. Okay, good, good. All right. Fantastic. Just whatever you might want to interject, we've taken into consideration your two through seven. And you said you might have some additional comments. So if you would make those at this time, that'd be great. Thanks. Well, I guess first, just to respect how much we've got on the agenda, let me ask, will there be another opportunity where we can have a discussion about other possible revisions or amendments or suggestions regarding the ethics ordinance? Or is this it? I don't think I would say this is it. I think I would say I would be surprised if this is it. But if we're going to give them direction to do it, and you can even do it, you can do it publicly, you can, I mean, I guess, email them. But if you've got just several bullet points that you want to sort of enumerate, I would say go ahead and do that real quickly. Okay, right. I'll keep it brief. As long as you're looking at language, like, you know, accused and so on, I suggest you also look at frivolous. Maybe the better term would be, you know, not found to have merit or something like that. There's a bit in the definitions of the ordinance under vendor, and I just don't understand the purpose of the carve out for right of way. So, you know, others may have greater clarity on why that's there. I don't think it's that evident, you know, in the kind of black letter of the ordinance itself. And it gives the appearance of being kind of a special interest carve out, and I hope that's not the case. But if it could be made clearer or if it is kind of funny that way, then maybe that should be reconsidered. And lastly, I wonder if the board might have a point of view on constituting panels differently. You discussed how advisory opinions are formed, but I wonder if in actual kind of judging hearings, if we might move to a process more like jury selection, just for the purpose of, you know, eliminating the inherent bias of having political appointees judge these things, but also eliminating the inherent conflicts where you've always got somebody who can't serve, you know, when it's -- So you'd at least randomize the bias if you went to a jury selection kind of approach from the general public for discussion. Can I briefly ask, as far as jury selection of the board, are you saying like going outside the general public? Just like white collar and any -- every other kind of crime is -- or, you know, jury adjudicated issue is dealt with. I have no idea what you're discussing. What do you mean? When you've got a panel, they're going to judge a case. A panel -- you mean -- A panel assembled to hear a case. Whether it's the three-member panel or the full board panel? Well, like when it's -- when you're going to -- today it's done as members of the committee, and I'm suggesting that -- Yeah, I can't support that. If I could make a comment about that, I mean, I understand how that could be beneficial to have people do that. I foresee the problems being logistically, you know, we -- I work on cases. I mean, we have a whole, you know, section of the division -- of the clerk's office that deals with getting panels together. So there would be a lot there. And the other problem would be getting everybody up to speed on the board of ethics. The people on the ethics committee are familiar with it. And I would have a little bit of concern of people that don't have that. So those would be some concerns of doing something like that. And he's just making that -- so I apologize. I spoke out of turn. He's just asking you all to consider that. If that's the recommendation that you all want to bring back, you can bring it back in this council. We'll eventually have the final say in that. TF for discussion. Yeah, I apologize for that, Council Member Meltzer. Absolutely. I spoke out of turn. But I figured out where you stand on it. Yes, yes, yes. So basically we are handing off the football, the baseball, the soccer ball, the basketball, whatever sports analogy you want to use, given your preference, and asking the board's help and bringing back some recommendations. One specific one I would have, just as I read through it during this whole process, is when it talks about conflict of people that the actual relatives of a person who has a conflict may want to be more specific about that. It's pretty general, but I would -- more specificity is better, because it at least gives everybody an opportunity to know clearly the rules, and there's not as much gray area. So it's always difficult on new ordinances, and that's why we're coming back with this process. And I think when we were in this process, we knew we would be coming back to make changes, modifications, however you want to term them. So this to me is just another step in the evolution of this process to get something that fits dentin and work through the scar tissue. I mean, just work through the scar tissue. I want to thank you for your willingness to serve and for the confidence that your fellow committee members had in electing you as board chair. So thank you for that. I know that it's an interesting time and it's a challenging time, but I believe that the committee is up for the task. And let me just make sure I understand. So we'll go back, we'll have a meeting, and we'll send another sort of letter to you all with our kind of full appointed list of what we want to change, maybe contain language, maybe not contain language. Does that sound about right? Yeah, I think it would be more than one meeting, actually. I mean, you might have to have more than one meeting. That actually brings to mind another question. I mean, for instance, in our meetings, a lot of people have things they want to bring up, and because we're not going to be there for 12 hours, we have to pare it down to what we can handle. So would this council like us to kind of, you know, give five or 10 recommendations and then go back and give some later, or would you rather us have several meetings over the next several months and then come back with a lot of recommendations or just leave it up to us? I would like to start improving the ordinance and getting things taken care of as quickly as possible because we have had issues in the past with it. And so, and I appreciate your time and understand that you can't meet for long periods of time, but on the ones where I feel like there were consensus that were pretty easy on those recommendations, getting those back to us so that we could go ahead and start implementing some changes, that would be my preference. But I know that once I realize that there's an issue, I would like to go ahead and get it corrected as quickly as possible before more complaints start coming in. And I guess I didn't mean that we'll be coming back with, you know, 100 changes, but I'm saying, you know, based on the board meetings, if we have a few and it sounds like it, I think it might be best for us to go back and definitely hit these easy ones, maybe hit some conflict of interest since it's one thing that there's been a lot of disagreement like the general public about, and then if there's more from there, maybe have more meetings on a letter date if that sounds like a plan. I would, you know, to go back to the model ethics ordinance, but I would love to see would be a list of provisions in our current city ordinance that have no equivalent in the in that model ethics code. And, you know, and I mentioned that it's because it's not an untested code. It forms the template for a number of city codes in the state of Texas and elsewhere. So that would be a way to minimize, you know, some of those problems that otherwise we'd be just running into in a case by case basis as we see what's wrong with our very, very unique current ethics ordinance. Now that that is one council members direction so I'm going to leave it to the board's discretion as far as the timing everything I mean we could sit here and talk about every one of these things that we've asked you to do and see if there's a consensus to really narrow it down for you but I'm going to leave that at the committee's district discretion, and we'll just deal with and we'll process through whatever you guys bring back and we'll be sure we will have probably many discussions, once we get those to figure out, you know what's the best ordinance for the city of Denton. So, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for your time. All right, let's go ahead and take a about a five minute break and we'll resume with our ordinance, I mean our work session. Welcome everybody back to this meeting of the density Council on Tuesday July the 16 2019 it is 1150 p.m. we're moving through our work session reports we are on work session report to be received report hold discussion and give staff direction regarding a policy for the use of city facilities. During inclement weather. Mayor council members my name is Laura Barron's and I'm the assistant director for parks and recreation. And today, I wanted to review with you, the policy the draft policy that you have in front of you will recap the consensus and direction that we were given on June 25, and then we have two outstanding items for your consideration. The overview and the purpose of the policy is to formalize our current practice of using facilities for inclement weather, and it also outlines and reinforces the communication plan. So this policy has two components. The first is a use of city facilities as an inclement weather station. This is for individual use as a warming and cooling station during inclement weather, and it also outlines under what circumstances we would activate our communication plan. So it's important to understand that our city facilities. Most of them all have public areas that individuals can go into at any time during the day during operational hours or our operating hours. This policy when we're talking about inclement weather stations, then just outline specific weather conditions when we would activate and communicate that these buildings are available for individuals to use as a warming and cooling station. The second component to the policy is after our use of park facilities by outdoor event organizers. So this is different from individual use. This is when we're going to open a park facility. We're going to open a park facility. This is when we're going to open a park facility. This is when we're going to open a park facility. This is when we're going to open a park facility. This is when we're going to open a park facility. This is when we're going to open a park facility. So we brought to you some recommended changes to the current process. We did receive consensus and direction on the inclement weather station. The first one being the removal of the police department as a weather location. Staff provided some information at that time on how they would assist an individual in finding another location at that time, whether it's another city facility or even one of the shelters within the city. And the purpose of that was to be able to provide a safe environment for all visitors who come into the police department. The second recommended change that was a part of the policy was the establishment of operation hours for our fire stations. So stations 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7 would have operational hours for inclement weather stations from 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. daily. Central fire station downtown would be open Monday through Friday from 8 to 5. The only station that's not listed in the policy is station 3 because it currently does not have a public access area. So once the new station 3 is built and there is a public access area, that station could easily be incorporated into this policy. Through the presentation. He's got two more slides. For the use of a city facility again by an event after hours, we discussed really three areas general requirements notices and weather conditions. So this would be again a point where we would open up a city facility for the use of an event organizer to bring their activities indoors. Under the general requirements, we received consensus and direction to make that available to local certified nonprofits. All applicable fees permit and insurance requirements would still apply. We had some discussion on how the city might support these events in the form of requests. During that discussion we received the direction that those requests for city support would come in the form of a reimbursement request. Somebody was asking the city to waive the rental fees, let's say for the use of the Civic Center because they're wanting to relocate their event indoors rather than going ahead and doing that at the staff level. They would have to pay all the applicable fees permit fees, anything that applies up front, and then that request would come back to counsel in the form of a reimbursement request. At that point, if it is approved staff within refund, the event organizer. And then we're also given direction to report this information back to counsel on a quarterly basis. So all of the requests, uses, and any approvals of free reimbursements would be reported to the council on a quarterly basis. In terms of notice, an event organizer would have to give the city 48 hours notice of their intent to want to relocate their event indoors. That relocation and the use of our facilities would be subject to the facility's availability as well as staffing availability. And this isn't just park staff, but any availability in terms of security that may be required also. The prioritization of use would be in line with our current city policy on city use of facilities 500.06. And then after each use, or actually at the request for each use, counsel would receive a notification of that request for use. And then finally we have weather conditions. The weather conditions that are in the policy are based off of weather advisory conditions. These are weather advisory conditions for outdoor activities. Again, this is for an event moving indoors, not for individual use. Under these conditions, we would have an actual or wind chill of 32 degrees or lower, an actual temperature of 103 degrees, or a heat index of 105. We'd be at a moderate thunderstorm risk, which is level three, and then freezing rain two to four inches of snow or a combination of the two. I did want to point out that if a special event or if an event is going through our recently approved special event process, those event organizers are required to submit an emergency plan, and that emergency plan is also supposed to include an inclement weather plan. So I believe, as Mayor Pro Tem pointed out during this work session, that an event can have their own policy on weather or inclement weather conditions that can be as simple as a cancellation, come rain or shine. They can make arrangements with maybe co-sponsors or other people that they're putting the event on with to have an alternate location, depending on inclement weather. If an event is not going through our special event process, for whatever reason, they may not be eligible or may not qualify to have to go through that process. We do have resources that are available online and can certainly assist them in putting together an emergency plan for their event. It's highly recommended. So moving forward, we have two topics that were left up for follow-up discussion. We can approve the policy as you've been given. I think you were provided with the markup so that you could see the changes based on the direction that we were given on June 25. Or we can again make some additional amendments to that policy and bring it back to you this evening. The two follow-up topics, the first one was a budget allocation. I mentioned to you that from a previous work session where we discussed the use of the Civic Center specifically for inclement weather reasons. There was a request to look into the possibility of establishing a budget to help support a special event under these circumstances. And we do have a supplemental package for your consideration in the amount of $30,000. And there was some considerable discussion on this point during our last meeting. And we requested that some information be brought back on some different options on the use of that budget. So a couple of different ways that that can be used. Assuming that the budget request is approved, council could decide to set a maximum number of uses. So you might have nonprofit A can use it up to three times during a fiscal year. You can set a maximum funding amount for each event. Again, you might have nonprofit A can use up to $3,000 of that allocated budget. You can also set limitations on fee reimbursements. You may decide that only rental fees are subject or eligible for reimbursement, or that you only would support up to 50% of a request. So there are a lot of different ways that that $30,000 could be used in terms of some equity and some fairness in who gets to use it, what opportunities are available to use it, and so forth. The second item for discussion that still we didn't really reach a consensus on is this possibility of restricting the use of certain city facilities for events. It's also come up for the inclement weather stations as well. We have a couple of options for you. On that end, we can designate certain recreation facilities for the use of inclement weather stations and extend that to our special events as well. What came up specifically was the use of the American Legion Hall, ALH, and the Senior Center. We can also designate a specific facility such as designating the Civic Center as the only facility that would be available for use for the special event component. But again, that can be amended and changed for either the inclement weather stations as well as the use for special events. All right. We'll go around. Councilmember Briggs. So just a few comments. So I wasn't here on that work session. And I'm just going through this. And honestly, I feel like I want to cry. Like, it just seems really cruel. And I'm not in agreement with the weather conditions. I mean, I think 32 or lower. I mean, that's freezing. I could go into a lot. I'll just say I'm not in agreement with the weather conditions. I think I would like to reopen that discussion so that it's not 32 or 103 degrees outside. Somebody made the comment, we treat our animals better than we're treating humans here, and I don't disagree. And so that's one comment on that. Under the general requirements, there's absolutely no way some of the nonprofits, the one that I know that has asked for it, is ever going to be able to have the applicable fees, permits, insurance. So I mean, we might as well just say we don't want, you know, bridging hope to feed the homeless in our facilities. I mean, that's what we might as well say, because that's not going to happen if we pass those requirements. So those are just my first comments. So I'm not in favor of passing this as is. I would like the second option for some changes. So before we go on, do you have some, what your thoughts are as far as, I mean, you've said what you don't like. What is it that you would propose then? Do you know what you would propose from the temperatures or from, I mean, so I just, if you don't, if it's not acceptable, I want to know what quote unquote would be acceptable. Okay. Well, I mean, I would like to see the, at least 35 up from 32. I mean, that would be, I mean, I would even like to see it higher, but I, so 35, actual temp of 103 degrees or heat index 105, I think that's just way too hot. Okay, so what are you, what are you suggesting? Why are we going over 100? I don't, I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, 100 or below 99 degrees. I, depending on the humidity outside, if it's 95 degrees and extreme humidity, I mean, you're sweating, and if you can't go inside anywhere and get water, you're going to, you're going to end up calling the 911 and going to the hospital. I mean, so I just, I would like to have more conversations with this council and maybe why they picked those numbers or, you know, why they agreed to it. And if somebody's open to, you know, changing those, then I would like to have that discussion. Okay, so I want to make sure I understand what you said for the, for the cold portion, you're saying your bottom line is 35 degrees. You'd want it more. It's what you're suggesting. And then for the heat portion, you're saying 99 degrees, either actual or 99 degrees. What do they call it? Heat index? Is that what it is? The temperature plus the relative humidity? Is that what you're, is that what you're saying? Yeah, minimum, minimum. Yes. Okay. Councilmember Marger, I think you had your hand up. Yeah, so I'll try to address these in the kind of three separate categories, the weather, weather, the weather issue, the general policy issues. Actually, I'll start with the general policy, the weather and then the issue of the police station, police station lobby. The new policy. So first, so the general requirements, I love that, that we're, we're talking about, you know, having a process whereby nonprofits can use the Civic Center in, in inclement weather and or other parks facilities. I agree with Councilmember Briggs that for some of our nonprofits, the, the insurance, you know, they're just not going to, going to have it. And so I don't, I don't think that we should require insurance just to, to use it for inclement weather, but, but, but I do like we're letting them use it. As for, so the fee reimbursement, that's fine. I kind of, I prefer the way it was before where, at least how I remember it, where staff had discretion, when I say the way it was before, I mean the previous incarnation. And I realize this is coming because based on the council feedback, but, you know, but my feedback is that, you know, I prefer the idea of just letting staff have discretion over, you know, waiving, waiving fees, you know, in this case, you know, reimbursing a fee. I feel like, I don't know if the term micromanaging is the right term, it's just kind of, just like I don't need to know every time somebody applies for a building inspection permit, you know, it's just kind of a routine thing where I trust to have to do it. I like the idea of quarterly reporting, you know, and, and the city council, it's good to know who's using it. You know, I'd also want to know when, as part of that quarterly reporting, you know, when if at all have conflicts arisen, you know, and is this, is there a pattern of kind of two groups wanting to use it, you know, at the same time. You know, to start, I wouldn't want to put any limits, I mentioned this just since it was raised as an issue on how often any one group gets to use it, at least for a first, you know, I like to have a first, you know, like a year test run of this policy just to see how it goes, because maybe there's only two or three groups who are regularly requesting it, and they each get to use those a bunch of times, and then that's not a problem. But if it's a problem, we have too many, a lot of groups requesting it all the time, then, so I would be willing to leave that open for the test run. So that's where I stand on the kind of the policy issue. As for, and I do agree, by the way, it should be not, it should be local, nonprofit, I like that. As for the weather issue, you know, I agree, as far as just this, the Fahrenheit temperature goes, you know, 103 is too hot, and 32 is too cold as far as just Fahrenheit temperature. What I think we should do, because heat index and wind chill are a much better indicator than simply Fahrenheit temperature, and in fact, there's a contradiction, well, depending on how you look at it, contradiction, you know, because you can have a temperature of 103 degrees, you're going to have a heat index of way higher than that. You know, I don't know if we've ever had, you know, where the temperature and the heat index are equal. Like right now, not right now, as of five minutes ago, I just looked it up, it said it's 94 outside, feels like 108, you know, and that feels like that's the heat index. So what I would recommend is striking the Fahrenheit temperature, because once you get to that heat index, and same for the wind chill, once you get to the wind chill, so, you know, which factors in the wind plus the Fahrenheit temperature and heat index, like you said, humidity plus the Fahrenheit temperature, you know, you've already surpassed that and, you know, my worry would be that, you know, the Fahrenheit temperature and those differences, it could mislead both facilities and more importantly, those people who want to seek shelter from the elements. I also think it's important to add just regular plain old rain that's not freezing, because, you know, nobody wants to be outside in any kind of rain, and people can get sick in the rain when it's not even freezing. So I just think we should add plain rain, and I'm talking about both for people being able to use the, you know, nonprofits being able to use the facility and individuals coming in from the cold. And as far as the temperature, so again, striking the temperature for the heat index and wind chill, you know, I would say, you know, heat index of, you know, 99 degrees, you know, wind chill of 40 degrees is what I would suggest. I think that that's the best for public health and safety. And then finally, you know, as for the police station lobby and we got a, you know, Chief Dixon had answered some questions that I had asked and it is included in this past Friday report, you know, so I encourage kind of people to look at that because I was asking about, you know, what are the new policy, these new policy changes? What are the new policy changes going to be? And also I had a question as to had they started already, because I've heard anecdotally that the, you know, doors are being locked already, you know, and I was a little confused about, you know, in the letter, it said, as I recall, you know, the new policy, it's not being implemented yet, but it's in the process of being rolled out, you know, something like that. And I couldn't quite tell the quantitative difference, so I wanted to know about that. I feel really strongly that, you know, on the one hand, the police lobby should not be a place where people go to just take shelter from the elements. We should have a better place than that for people, but right now we don't, and that is open 24/7, and it's also in a great location as far as accessibility, so I would, you know, echoing what Kevin Sample mentioned at the beginning, I believe that we need to, and I'm wrapping it up. Thank you. I believe that we should not remove that lobby as an option until either, and Senior King opens for seven days a week, seven nights a week, rather, use at some point next year, and that would give us an impetus to speed that along. Or until we provide some temporary or permanent alternative that would be kind of either a holdover place for people to go during the day that is air conditioned and heated, and obviously you need some sort of monitoring, and you'd have the bathroom and water, that bare minimum. So again, police lobby not ideal, and I also, I was very, I was concerned about, you know, the reasons that were given, you know, to me it seemed very focused on this one category of people, people experiencing homelessness, and, you know, and I saw no indication that there had been any violence, or, you know, people doing drugs in the bathroom or anything. It was just kind of the general people feeling unsafe, because of the way people look. And, you know, and that, that concerns me. Thank you. Any other comments. Councilmember, Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you. Mr. City Attorney, can I get a copy of that letter that Councilmember Armator just referenced, please email me that. And then, I think, staff, could you speak to how we arrived at the temperatures. Yes, again, this is specifically for events. So, the event organizer should already be planning for any type of emergency, including inclement weather. If it's too dangerous to be out in these weather conditions, then that event organizer can make the decision on how they're going to proceed with their event. This is making an opportunity available to them. If, for whatever reason, there aren't any other options, or we do have some language in there that allows for unforeseen circumstances where these things, these decisions can be made on a case by case basis. I just want to mention really quick too on the insurance, anyone who's using our facilities is required to have insurance, the only exception to those are private parties. So if we have a wedding, a quinceanera, a shower, a bridal shower, they are not required to have insurance, but anyone else using our facilities is required to have insurance, you know, for all of the liability issues that could occur. Thank you. And then Mayor Watts, I'll take your guidance and direction on how to make a decision on, I'm absolutely adamant regarding the American Legion Hall and the Senior Center, that those be either downgrade, outright removed, or downgraded to where they're secondary to the other facilities. There's a number of reasons, but succinctly, first, both are next to larger facilities. Civic Center is right next door to the Legion Hall and the public libraries here, I mean, pardon me, the Senior Center and the library is right here. With respect to American Legion Hall, there's Martin Luther King Center, less than a five minute walk down the road. My concern is no different than in the libraries, I'd like a stipulation there because there's a teen section in the library. So if I say I'm going in for inclement weather, and I'm a 30 year old, and I can go into the teen section, I don't think that's appropriate. And so my same age concerns are for the American Legion Hall and Senior Center, elder abuse, and I could see someone manipulating that system because normally you cannot get into those facilities if you're not a certain age. This would take away that prohibition and allow some younger narrative well, potentially, it just opens the door for someone younger to go in and start to befriend people and maybe say, hey, I'd love to call you, I'd love to help you, and oh, by the way, you know, I'll follow up with emails, and it just goes down a path that I think is dangerous. And I think you can Google any research on the news and you'll see the concerns for elders and protecting them, and it's happened in my family and so I'm sensitive to it. And so I don't know what the process is to have that evaluated to see if there's a consensus, but I'm saying people ordinarily cannot get in there anyway if you're not of an age. I don't think that we should use whether as a reason to subvert that because of the other areas that are there's two here and one there that are that are very close and better fit to handle that, and it protects our elderly citizens. Okay. All right. For clarification as well. I mean I wasn't here when this item was heard either. So, I don't. I watched it but I don't remember who was where but as far as the, the staff presentation on temperatures and, and events and notices and insurance requirements and all of those things. Where are you with with those particular kinds of questions. Yeah, so, with respect to temperature I need help understanding. Because the my understanding of inclement weather, it would normally be during business hours that those temperatures would be the highest, and people can walk into any public facility and cool off get drinks water go to the restroom so I don't understand what I'm missing the scenario I'm missing that at the hottest part of the day, you can go into any facility and do everything you need to do. So I just don't understand. So you're okay with the temperatures as presented by staff right. Yes. And because it's based on a weather. I forget what it is but it's the, it's, it's based on a factual, it has factual support to it versus us coming up with an arbitrary number that when challenged we can just say well I just thought that was a good number, you know, and so that that is important. Then when you talk about insurance, I'm fine. Most events would have insurance anyway so they would just transfer the venue, where it is I mean you have to have it anyway and so you just say we're not going to be at this location will be at the other. And so I'm okay with that, that component. And I don't know, I didn't have any other notes of that jumped out of me. I will say this for clarification, the police foyer is open and that was made clear during our conversation. It is the actual lobby to the police station that is not. So there's there's not a. You can still come in out of the weather, and it's important to note it keeps getting left off that the officers then coordinate with people to say, you don't have to walk anywhere where we will coordinate with you best we can to get you to a facility that is better equipped for you to sleep so so you're not having to walk anywhere. These other areas you would have to walk, we're saying we're going to take, take you there. And so I don't understand how that is the one you can come in. Maybe you're going to get a ride to where you can be more comfortable and and have all your stuff with you right so if you come in let's say you can come in, you can't take your stuff into the lobby. So now you're you're having to watch the window. Or to, I can take all my belongings with me and go to the salvation army and money months and your king. So, to another place that that's, that's, I can have everything with me I don't understand what we'll hear from the chief on some of that he'll, he'll speak to us here. Yes, sir. And I understand. Yes, we had two council members that weren't here for the original. The temperatures for that are just a flat 100 degrees and 32 degrees. Those are just the points at which we would activate our communication plan, we're not saying that you cannot come in, and until it's 100 degrees or below 32 degrees during operating hours what we're saying is at these points, they turn into an inclement weather station where we activate a communication plan for people to know and be aware that you can come into the station during our operating hours so those are for the majority of our city facilities. Then again we can make some of those changes as you direct for the second component. These are advisory conditions for outdoor activities. These conditions were chosen again specifically because they are for outdoor special events. It's not meant to address an individual's need for for station. In our ordinance. And so you're saying, forget this discussion. People can come in, people can come in and get a drink of water use restroom whatever if they have those facilities there. And then, so, and this is during operational hours. So then during operational hours, the weather starts getting up close to 100 degrees or close to 32 degrees. Going up to that high or going down to that low during operational hours people still have access. Absolutely. During operational hours. Absolutely. It hits 100 degrees, it hits 32 degrees, people still still can go in what you're saying is there's some kind of process whereby you try to communicate to those who may not know it. That these are stations that are available. So, my question becomes, in the city facilities that have operating hours, then we're only talking about during operating hours let's say 100 degrees hits at nine o'clock at night. All right. Our policy in the past has been what I mean if it's if it's if the operations are closed if it's beyond operational hours. Are we coming in and opening that up or no, no we have not been not for during operational hours and I don't hear that there's any question about that particular parameter of what we're discussing, except for the police department. Correct it up to this point. Correct. All right. So, okay. All right. So then really, what I'm hearing you say is that the only difference is a communication plan that no one is prevented from coming in. If it's 102. If it's 100 degree heat index, 95 degree temperature with whatever relative humidity puts it to that place. Correct. Nobody during operation hours is prevented from coming in. Correct. Is that right. Correct. Okay. All right. Okay. You've spoken once before Councilmember armature I'm going to try to get anybody else that hasn't spoken yet. Brian. I'm good. That answered my question. Okay. Councilmember Nelson and Councilmember Davis. Yeah, a couple of questions. What do you think about the suggestion of instead of using temperature to use wind chill and heat index because, and just to say a little more about it. What appeals to me about the suggestion is it's still a bright line number, but it takes more into account, you know, and, and what it takes into account is people's, you know, effects people's experience, but before you answer that I want to ask him a question of clarification. So are you talking about individuals with this communication plan being activated. Yeah, the communication plan, or are you talking about for. Also, the events which I haven't addressed my, my observations on the minutes, but are you talking about on the event. So you know what I had in mind when I asked it was just because we had been talking about, you know, just before the events, excuse me. The opposite. What I had in mind was the communication plan, but the question holds, you know, for the other as well why not use what might might that not be a better measure to use and is there a guideline, as far as picking the point for wind chill and heat index. So you're saying both for the communication plan implementation and the weather conditions for the park facility event use. Okay, and so we have the, we can certainly at Council's direction, make, you know, whatever amendments we want to on the for on the heat side we do have that heat index, which is what you're talking about there, there is not a similar one on the. On the, I guess on the on the freezing end of it, but Sarah can answer any questions that you'd have on the stations itself. He had, if you go ahead and pose your next question so they maybe can answer it as they're up there. Oh, it's not that directly related. Okay, nevermind. Yeah, go ahead. So on that communication plan as far as 32 and 100 degrees we actually worked with our nonprofit providers and kind of having those general parameters. They're not set in stone but what we want to do is if they're going to be opening six, for example, MK OC does open during inclement weather salvation army will have extended hours sometimes they'll open their facility during the day, our daily bread sometimes we'll do extended hours during inclement weather sometimes DCT a will offer will offer shuttles back and forth so what we're trying to do is partner all that information into one so that we have one message going out. So they're general parameters that we can be able to work with it. And of course the nonprofits right now dependent volunteers to get those facilities either extended hours or extended nights so we're trying to work with them get out one email message to all of our providers so that they can distribute that information to clients, and then as well as share that information through social media and our various other channels. So real quick question of clarification. So, those organizations that you mentioned. Yes. Do they have a different standard for inclement weather when they will open up. They have the same standard, so Salvation Army has that 32 and 100 degrees. Okay, MK OC, they'll generally look at the look at a bunch of factors but it's not it's not a hard policy hard. Correct. So for example, when it's, it was raining for multiple days, MK OC opened up the look at some different factors but generally that's when we're trying to start communicating with each other to understand, do we have the resources and should we be communicating what facilities are open. Okay. All right. Thank you. Yeah, I guess, you know, what I'm really asking is, do you think, do you think it would be a good idea to consult, you know with them and suggest moving to a standard maybe it's still 32 and 100 but it's wind chill and heat index. What do you think of that idea. Sure, we can consult with them again this conversation actually came up in the last fall, and as part of our shelter planning work group. We did discuss and just decided on those general parameters, you know it may be 35 and they may open facilities and we may have the communication plan and go out it's just kind of something for us to know when should we start to discuss together. Sure, go ahead. Yes, back to Laura on the discussion of whether we put restrictions around the, you know, how many waivers and how to cut up the money is, is there a pattern of behavior is there a problem that you can kind of describe the shape of that would be addressed by one or another of those alternatives that we foresee that kind of based on behavior we've already seen issue or problem. I would say no I what we're trying to do is actually get ahead of it. So we had beginning this year, had some requests to open up the facility. During some inclement weather primarily rain there were some cold weather days. So, having no policy in place or no objective standards in which to follow. We really wanted to get ahead of it. And let you know I have that conversation with, with the council in terms of moving forward. How can we support those needs those requests, what kind of objective parameters can we place around it. What can we do at the staff level and then what you as a council would want brought to, you know, brought back to this body for approval. I understand the sort of, you know, general motivation for having a policy but I mean, as far as choosing among, you know, those different ways of potentially, you know, bounding the requests, you know, is there, do you, is there an issue that in particular that you foresee that would be addressed by one of those choices. In other words, if we knew that, you know, one, some reason why we thought one organization was using it beyond reasonability and that, so that might make us want to restrict the number of times or you know what is it, what is the problem that we anticipate that we're trying to solve within the choices of those different ways. No understanding again because we're trying to get in front of it we haven't had any problems or issues, I will tell you that it did come up as part of the discussion on June 25 from actual council members who wanted to know, you know how could we equitably distribute this budget amount, if we were to approve that $30,000. Should we put some parameters around the use to give everybody an opportunity, you know, I guess to kind of have that chance to use it again given the prioritization that it is available we don't already have something scheduled in there we don't have a renter in there and so forth. So that was actually discussion that was brought up by council members at the time and should we go ahead and look at the way that that money is allocated or distributed, so that there would be an equal opportunity for those who needed to use it or wanted to use it to have that ability. Okay, then I'm also inclined toward, you know, seeing how it goes and seeing what the issues are, rather than kind of prejudging that. And the other thing that I just make a statement out, no question coming to, you know, already voted on it but I still think it just doesn't make sense to have this 48 hour restriction that would prevent the city manager, unless I misunderstand this, that prevent the city manager from letting someone come in out of the rain if it's unexpected. I just I just don't see any any sense in that. I'd say, I wouldn't see the 48 hour thing. Also, you know, if there's a joint Kiwanis rotary Susan Coleman breast cancer awareness event in Quaker Town Park, it's unexpectedly rained out. I can see why we would say, well you didn't tell us 48 hours ago and the rain isn't freezing. So I can't let you come in out of the rain it just just doesn't make sense to me. Member Davis did you have a comment question. I think my questions have been answered by the presentation, I'm, I'm good with going forward with what you have. And as far as Councilmember Melters point, the additional kind of safeguards and maximums and things let's see how it goes and we get that first quarterly report, and oh my gosh the budget is going to be blown. Let's discuss it then. I do want to reiterate something you said though about the events that the risk of holding an outdoor event is borne by the organizer of the event, and I think we are kind of losing sight and part of the conversation the fact that this is an emergency situation that this is not for your event just got rained out and now it's the city's job to take you in out of the rain. These are for events that, you know, there's a there's a risk of life safety. If people are outside going to the community market, and it's that hot, or if there's a thunderstorm on the way, and they have to plan ahead for that this is not for an event gets rained out that's not necessarily the city's role, if that's the city's role then folks can pay the fair price and rent the event center and all those kind of things. So I'm fine with going forward with what we have. If there is a larger discussion about temperatures and the community communications plan. I'd be fine with the communications plan going into effect, where wind chills and heat indexes hit those numbers, but I don't want to necessarily do something where we're running counter to some of our community partners, where they've got one policy and one communication plan and somebody sees a flyer that says, you know salvation of our army is open for inclement weather, but the city isn't, or vice versa. So I'd want to be on the same page with with other groups. As far as our communications plan goes. So I'd like to ask the city manager on this for the local nonprofits which who has asked to do this, who is asked to facility so far, like, because this is in place and we're talking about it because specific nonprofits have asked to use the facilities or have used the facilities. My understanding is just to write, or is it more my understanding. Yeah, and I haven't I don't believe I've seen a request and at least what two or three months. Is that right. Correct. Community market and bridging hope. So, I'm just going to say because that that's my, my issue with the, the actual wind or, you know, the, the insurance. This conversation we're having because the main reason bridging hope, which is a nonprofit, they feed on house people every Sunday in Quaker town park. And they have asked the city to for use of the civic center when it's gotten, you know, there's thunderstorms, or it had been cold or, you know, and so I am of the opinion that I am okay with them using that facility when it is, you know, 35 degrees or, you know, 100 degrees outside that's the weather conditions. So whenever I'm looking at the slide, I am thinking specifically of that organization, and what they do for our community. So, that that's why I may be approaching this differently because I'm not thinking of like the community market. When I look at this. I'm thinking about people freezing and starving. Councilmembers. Yeah, I want to reiterate, you know, something really important Councilmember Meltzer brought up I can't believe I didn't mention it and that is, you know, the 48 hour notice I to feel and again it's something that we had talked about last time, you know, I am okay with having staff, whether it's staff on on site city manager however that's worked out. That call, knowing that the closer you get to to the, the time of use. You know they're going to be a number of factors and I mean if you don't have staff there then you don't have staff there so knowing that people will have to say no, and that that there will always be a good reason for for saying no when when no is said. So, I think that because we are, you know, we're not running, you know, it's not the same as a, you know, Andy bees or something like that, you know, if this is a it's a public building and so we, but we have to have rules, but it really we should really err on the side of seeing how flexible we can be. So I think that's extremely important. And I wanted to hear, you know, as far as the kind of police lobby, you know, since Chief Dixon is here, you know, I would love to hear if others would feel ready now or prefer that later in the discussion. You know to hear his take on kind of what the pot what, first of all, kind of, you know, what exactly is happening now with with people finding the lobby locked and, and what the plan is for the, for the future. So before we go to that, we basically got a couple issues. One is the temperature for the communication plan. And I guess that's separate, and you've got the event going into city facility. With, with what staffs presented. We've had Councilmember Meltzer that's had some concerns with what's presented or provided some different options that Councilmember Briggs, I guess Councilmember Briggs I'm still not quite understanding. But what I'm hearing you say is that whether it's this organization you're speaking of or any other organization I mean I understand your passion towards that issue and I share that sentiment, also have to look at the whole city, you know citywide and and try to understand how our decisions impact everyone as equitably as possible. So, let's say on a Sunday, an organization is out at the Quaker Town Park, providing the services that she spoke of and there's, there's nothing that has indicated that anything's going to pop up. That happens. There's a thunderstorm that pops up course, the temperature thing that just doesn't happen, you know, in a matter of seconds but that's a thunderstorm certainly can pop up in a matter of an hour or two hours or something like that let's say it's on a Sunday. What I'm saying is is that the city should open up, let's say that the, the Civic Center, given an hour or two notice or something like that is, I'm trying to understand exactly what you're advocating for. So I'm part of that is that no matter if they decide to open up in 48 hours or not the requirements are going to not allow a lot of nonprofits to even ask, and that's why they haven't asked in several months. And I appreciate that but then I get, I'm just trying to understand because you talked about the two that have asked, and you talked about the one you said I'm not talking about the community market well the community market asked and maybe some council members appear would have the same perspective you have. But now we're talking about the general requirements on the 48 hours. So, I'm trying to really understand exactly what you're saying you want if you if you could have it changed to whatever you wanted it changed to. I would say that the city manager would have the ability to make the call 48 hours 24 hours, you can usually tell, I don't expect city staff to within two hours be up and ready to go, and I don't think that anyone else would expect that either. I just think that if we pass this we are, we're just, we're not allowing for that for that decision that to make that I mean it'll just be, it'll just be done. And if I can make clarify we actually there is language in there that allows the city manager to make a decision on a case by case basis on the time frame, we that is in the markup of the policy that you have in front of you. So that there is that flexibility. So, all I'm saying is that one of the two who have taken advantage or have asked to use the civic center will not be able to do that. If this is passed. That's all I'm saying. Okay, well, and that that's okay. I mean, I just wanted to. Okay, that's fair enough. Yeah. All right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, just a point of clarification on the 48 hour and not having it. I'm not saying it must be opened more in line with what customer armature said, it's just, you have the ability to say, yeah, we have staff. You know, okay. If you meet all these other things. I think the city manager always has to have the ability and the authority to say no we just can't, we just don't have the staff I mean people have weekends, you know, people aren't just on call. All the time. I just don't want to preclude the possibility of even entertaining the request. So I'm going to make sure I'm clear. I thought what I heard you just say is in the markup, which I read it but that doesn't come to my mind. What I heard you say is there is a 48 hours by event organizer, but there's also language that if it's less than that, that the city manager can be notified they can make a request to the city manager, and the city manager can decide based upon operational issues staff availability. The, the, the premise availability. If that's if that's available. Am I hearing that correctly. Yes sir under 2.6 point four it says, in a case of unforeseen weather conditions the city manager, or his or her designee can authorize the use of a part facility. Okay, addresses. Okay, I was gonna say, I think, I think that's issue of the time is sort of been addressed as far as flexibility. All right, okay. Okay, so I want to before we get the chief up because that seems to be a separate kind of issue. I mean that, I mean it's. So as far as the. Let's go with the events, the weather conditions on the events, and the notice on the events and the general requirements on the events and the fact that there is some flexibility on the notice requirement. And right now we're still going under the general requirements. Who's in favor of moving that forward. I think it's an action item tonight. Yes, yeah, who's in favor of moving that forward under those, those, the park facility event use June 25th work session these things that staff is presented. I mean that was one of my concerns that's why I asked Councilmember Briggs, because I was gonna say well if it's 48 hours maybe we can move it to 24 but what I'm hearing is you've got that flexibility, even quote unquote if it's less than that but now, operationally that presents its own set of concerns. Correct. All right. So on the, the inclement weather definition for individual for stations stations which are city facilities that are open during operational hours, excluding the police department building, which we will address here shortly. And so the temperatures for that are 32 degrees 132 132. Yes, sir. All right, and that's for the activation of the communication plan, it doesn't mean nobody can come in, it just means activation of the community. Okay, who's, who's okay with that. Yes. I, I want to carve out those. Okay, yes, those two buildings because that, as is, those would go out and so I'm going to that that would. I can't support that. Okay. Well, it but as far as the temperature, as far as the temperature standard, you're okay with that as long as these two buildings are, you know, your request is those buildings around. Correct. Okay, so if the buildings aren't out, then you're opposed to the whole thing. That's well, yes, I'd have to be okay. All right. Okay. Okay, so I'm seeing I know we've had three that were for windchill. I'm going to say, I'm okay with the temperature with a caveat that we talk with our partners, because to me, I don't want to have a different standard, because we're going to let them in, whether we've activated the communication plan or not. But the communication plan, I don't want it to be misleading to someone in these other nonprofit areas so I certainly am okay with moving that differently and changing the standard. If we can have some conversation with some of our partners who work with us in this area to make sure that we're consistent in that so I would, I'm okay with supporting it as is but I would want to come back to counsel, a discussion of talking with the partners to ensure that we're in, we're in sync. Because we don't we don't want that because it doesn't mean we could choose anything. We could choose anything they still can come in. It's just the communication plan working with other people who get that communication plan. Real quick, that's my bar. So, can I ask my colleagues how people feel about non freezing rain, just having just plain old rain. Well, for me, that's covered under the moderate thunderstorm risk level three I don't know, is that when we say level three what exactly is that. So that's, that's the increased potential for for a thunderstorm in our area is that is that a forecast based upon how many hours ahead, based upon a percentage of that you got a 40% chance of a severe, is it severe thunderstorm is it a thunderstorm watch is, I mean, what does that entail in in this in the moderate I believe it does include a thunderstorm watch that's under the events anyway. No, it's not for the inclement weather stations for the general use of our facilities. This is for the events. So, if it's raining. Is anybody prevented from coming in a city facility other than the ones that's being requested to be removed and also the police department which staff is asking for is anybody prevented from coming into a building when it doesn't matter whether it's a sprinkle or it's a torrential downpour if it's during operational hours can they come in day to day during operation hours no sir. Councilmember Armitter. Yes, I want to ask follow up questions on that, that because, you know, to make sure as far as uses so anyone can come in and say somebody's tired and they want to take a nap. You know, as far as uses, obviously people can obviously their behaviors that get people kicked out. Right. So what are the behaviors, you know, and where do we have that in writing so we can make sure because it's something that I'm concerned I believe staff is actually provided. I know on at least from parks and libraries we did provide code of conducts to Council and an informal staff report, all of the things that again it's not primarily for any one person or group of people this was across the board with the code of conduct is for the use of park facilities and also for libraries. We did those together we coordinated on putting those code of conducts together. So I definitely can can provide you with that information again. Well, thank you and I can, I can look that up. Do you remember off the top of your head, if, if resting, if, if, if napping is one of those, I can, I can speak for bit for parks, sleeping is not allowed. I believe it is the same for library I don't know if there's anybody here from library but I believe for libraries the same yeah yeah and that and that's, you know, kind of circles back to, you know, my, my chief concern, which is that there's that there's no place for people to legally sleep when and senior king and salvation army aren't available. Okay, and everybody needs to sleep, and we've agreed that that homelessness is, and I'm not, I'm not addressing this to you, my, my, my colleagues, it doesn't fall on parks, it falls on Council. All right, I appreciate that. Council member, Mayor pro tem and then I think yes. On this, on this topic. I think it's important to note that I'm not going to be lumped in as though I'm not sensitive to those things as as I because I think it's absolutely the opposite. And I think, I think staff has it spot on, and we it's, it's my charge to pan out a bit to your point. When you're talking about seeing the whole city see all situations so in one situation you see sleep. And staff at that, at that facility at Emily Valley library that saved a man's life. So imagine if they just take the perspective that he's sleeping, and they don't go get the crash, the, the, the, the. Right. So, if there's a health concern that I need you to be alert so that I know that you're okay. There's an individual that passed away on a park bench outside Wells Fargo Bank, because no one checked on. So I think there's, you got to see it bigger than this myopic view that we need, I need to see you, I need to see that you're okay. I need to know that you're okay. And to do that you have to be alert, so it's not punitive. It's absolutely staff's trying to make sure everyone in that facility is okay. And if you need medical attention, let's address that. But let's not assume everyone's okay and have someone pass away or, or make a bad situation worse, so I just want to make sure we're clear that there are other alternative views and other looks at things and it doesn't have to be punitive. It doesn't have to be an incentive, it could be even more in my opinion even more sensitive and more caring. And so I think we do ourselves a disservice to look at it in a myopic view but also to entertain other thoughts, or ask the question. Why is that well, it is that because we want people to be safe we want to look at people want to make sure you're okay. Councilmember Melser and then we're going to go on talk with the police chief. Yeah, it's just a narrow issue if someone wanted to continue on that theme that to take precedence I just want to say that, you know, I don't see how staff expects me to see something just by putting it directly in front of my eyes. You know, right, right there. So rain is accounted for. It's if it's a thunderstorm right if we have the, if we have the carve out for city manager to do shorter timeframe decisions if staffing is available, etc. I assume moderate thunderstorm risk level three in a shorter timeframe means there is actual thunderstorm happening, like that, that's, you know, permitted condition for the city manager to consider giving approval. Rain is there, that's correct rain is there under this level. Correct, not not just like summer rain thunderstorm. Correct. I'm okay with that, but again, just hiding it in plain sight right in front of me how do you expect me to see it. Yeah, I'm just gonna say I hope that's a joke. Parks, the park facility event. That's what we're talking about is that moderate three risk is the park facility event use because under any kind of rain event, you can still come into a public facility other than what we're talking about the police department and then. So, I think what I'm hearing, somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Looks like we had a consensus or people wanting to move forward with the requirements here specified under park facility event use. And then as far as the temperature range seems like moving forward on that with a discussion to modify that if we can get our partners to somehow, we can have a cohesive plan. So before we talk to the to the police chief, I want to address your request councilmember husband with removing those two, those two facilities. So I will open the floor up to the discussion of that. Yes. And, and, and this may be a good segue, because the police chief can speak to a case that they built on an individual that was manipulated at a facility in our city by a younger person, and to the tune of $300,000. So, it happens, and that's fine. So I look forward to getting that on record, wherever one falls on elders and allowing what I believe access to unnecessary access to that population. And to I look forward to hearing people speak on, you know, there's facilities right next to both. So, okay, I look forward to it. Councilmember Davis. So I didn't begin the work session with feelings quite as strong on that issue as the mayor pro tem but if what we're talking about is taking them off the flyer, basically taking them off the communication plan when there are facilities next door. These are probably not kind of top of people's mind places to go to cool off or to get warm, you know with or without a flyer if they're thinking about where do I get out of the elements. They're probably not first off thinking of let's go to the senior center and let's go to the American Legion Hall. I don't think we lose a lot by just taking them off if they're still open during to the public during regular hours, you still have the staff for instance the senior center. If someone comes in who doesn't kind of fit the bill that the staff is is vigilant to that and they can see that whether or not it's on a flyer but I don't see the harm and taking these two facilities off the flyer and letting the rest of the good communication plan go forward. I don't think we lose a lot. I appreciate your raising the issue and I hadn't thought about it thoroughly and you know I think your perspective is important. I would ask the other question, would there be any harm in including it on the flyer saying for seniors, because there are there are a lot of folks, you know, without housing or who fit the categories. So answer. No, I think that's, that's fair I just didn't have a way to parse it out. Okay, so yeah, it helps me narrow that interest that you're trying to protect. Yes, and not necessarily. Okay. All right. Good. Anybody else. I do think that it makes sense to you're taking off the communications plan. They're still open to the public it's not, you know, we can then, you know, do the age appropriate as people come in, and even direct them to other facilities. I mean if we started getting into it, you know, this isn't an exhaustive list of all city facilities that people could walk into during the day and cool off or heat up so just just not having them on the list makes sense. Let me make sure I understand the request mayor pro tem, because these are open facilities in general, like the senior said center is an open facility. So, are you saying that your request pertains specifically to them on the communication plan list that you're understanding is that someone can still go in there, who is, as I think somebody said foot the bill or something like that. They still can go in there and then it's left up to staff to try to any of the one of these or you saying you're wanting to modify some currently existing policy with those two facilities are just strictly limited to the communication plan, if I may just help out and, you know, let everybody know that both of those facilities are for people 50 age 50 and above. So, Mayor pro tem is correct that on a daily basis if there's somebody that comes in that, you know, may not fit that requirement for that use of that building. We've got greeters there, they're going to you know approach them ask them if they need help if you for them, let them know that this is a senior center it is for individuals 50 and above you know there are just like any other recreation center there's memberships requirements to use specific areas and so forth so that's occurring on a daily basis but both of those facilities are for use of individuals 50 and up. And so, my concern is with this, without that stipulation, either age or removed off the list someone can basically say, I have this, I'm 30, and I have this communication from the city that says, I can come in here, irrespective of your current rules. And that would be the same in the teen section of the library hey you can't go into the teen section of the library, have this email from the city that says, I can come into the library because it's inclement weather so that truncates all right cuts through all the rules and so that's what I'm trying to re establish is, hey, the rules still exist, or take it off the list so that that can't be used inappropriately. I don't think everybody who fits every category that served is necessarily aware of what services the city has. So I think it's potentially a really good service to provide to let you know, a distressed senior know that there's a place specifically for seniors to go in those circumstances they might feel safer doing it. Okay, so what you're saying is just on this list, put in parentheses, this, whatever designation you for the appropriate to age 50 plus. All right, and I'm okay with that. I mean I'm okay with that. Okay, see, I see enough head shaking to confirm that. All right, so now we're down to. So, do you have direction on the other issues besides the police to station the fire department. Yeah, so just to make sure I'm clear. We have no changes to the use by events, and the main change that we have right now for the use of our facilities under inclement weather conditions as warming and cooling stations would be to make sure that we communicate on for the senior center and al H, that that is open to individuals in the city and above. Yes, and that we talk with our partners to see if we can modify the, the, the temperature standard. Yes, Councilmember armature and I like, I would like to be thrown in there something on that inclement weather sheet the actual handout that says that, you know, it's just my off the top of my head but but in a concise way that at any in any of our public buildings, you know, any one can come in at any time subject to the rules and then having a link to those rules. I mean, I don't. Let's see how this works. I mean, the code of conduct has been in place for how long. And, I mean, I know that ours was updated actually during the bullying policy, when we were establishing our facilities as no, no bullying zones. That's when parks went through and did a comprehensive review of the, and we were required to submit our rules of conduct at that time. Okay, I mean, I mean, public buildings are open to anybody coming in subject to a lot of different things I mean, depending probably where you are. Okay, so, yes, go ahead, Councilmember Davis, very briefly Thank you mayor. If there are people that feel this policy onerous or feel like their activities are going to be barred by what we're doing that their requirements they can't meet. I'd like to invite them to email with me, and there may be the city council does not have to be the solver of every issue, there may be community resources available to meet some of those needs and make these facilities available to them. So I'd like to hear from those groups. Okay. Okay. All right, chief, you want to come forward and sort of share with us some of your thoughts and we'll ask you some questions mayor pro tem I'm gonna step out just for a second. Good afternoon mayor council Frank Dixon chief of police. Hello. Oh no, just saying hey, you know I was like people say hi I feel like we should say hi back so appreciate that. Yes. So as I was responding to a couple of questions that were presented this past weekend from Councilmember armator. I want to lay out pretty comprehensively the thought process that went behind the changing of business model for the police station. Immediately after receiving that email I called to ensure that the front doors are unlocked, and they still work. I had someone in fact this morning go in before normal working hours they were unlocked still. So they are unlocked. So that was misinformation. And I want to be clear from the beginning that the police department, the dent police department, specifically my direction has always been to serve this community with compassion. And it's not relegated to one certain subsect of our community, but across the board. We have a tremendously difficult job in enforcing the law but we must do so evenly across the spectrum. So, from in the business model changes was not something that was made in a vacuum. It was not done overnight. From the beginning of November up until this past week. I've been receiving complaints from our unarmed civilian personnel that work overnight. Staff concerns for their own safety inside the building regardless of who was coming and going because the lobby was open 24 hours a day. So when I'm looking at feasibility, safety, security, and civil liability. I ultimately came to the same thing that Kevin spoke about earlier, and that Councilmember armored torque spoke about a little while ago, and that is the police department is not made or not meant or designed to be a shelter. It's actually the least secure, the least safe building in the city, because there should be no police officers there. They should be out delivering service to the community. Specifically when we're looking at having an unarmed jailer walking out an inmate that had just been processed out, who then saw somebody in the lobby, who they had conflict with almost until physical altercation. If not for our civilian jailer being there, who's unarmed does not have police power. We have an unarmed civilian sitting behind the glass, who is unarmed with no police power. They have to essentially call 911 and have a police officer respond. Luckily nothing happened there. We had a mother come in there to seek shelter, seek refuge with their young child. The words about them feeling uncomfortable coming in, because of who was in the lobby. Those are not the words of the police department. Those are words from this survivor of a horrific case of family violence. And we owe it to our survivors of any type of violence to show them the respect and the compassion that they deserve. Because what we just did to this lady with her child is victimize her again as she's coming in to seek refuge with us, the police department. And we simply can't do that. Third point, just down the street we have the Civic Center, where in the event of inclement weather we're opening up for a shelter, far vast the capacity there is much larger than a police station. Not that much further down the road. And in fact our police officers are more than willing to transport people down here should they need it. So I just want to make sure that council understands, we are as compassionate as anyone in this community. I'm looking to expand the services that the police department is providing to those experiencing homelessness, because it's something dear to my heart. But we have to do it and we have to be thoughtful about that if we sit back and we allow staff to constantly tell us about their concerns for their own safety and welfare, and show one of them be injured, or worse, after they express that. There's a lot of liability that lies on me as a chief of police, the police department and the city. So I just want to make sure that that was clear, and that this is not us trying to protect one subsect of the community over another, but it's looking to do so equally across the board. Yeah, so, so a few questions so. So, thank you for, you know, making sure that they're, you know, unlocked for now. So, when I heard that started hearing that people were finding the police station, the police lobby locked, and they had to, if it's a buzzer or a bell, is that where they either. Are you saying that they were either lying to me or that they were miss confused. I mean, has it been at any you know I don't mean constantly you know people weren't telling me, it's constantly locked it's just when I went there, you know, I heard. I think I heard two anecdotes but one, it was someone who would talk to people and heard hey the word is, you know, people have found this lock what's happening, is that not true, true that that has happened. We're doing it to you. We're doing it purposely or not, nor can I say that staff telling me was telling me purposely or not. I know for a fact that this morning. My assistant chief went in before normal business hours to specifically do a pop inspection and the doors were unlocked. So I can only speak to that fact. Awesome. Thanks. And I want to say something to this. I appreciate you bringing your concerns. But what I think I heard you just say was that it was what you heard from somebody who heard something else. Yes. And, you know, if we're going to come in here and ask our police chief or any staff member about specific questions. A little bit verification of that because I think you got an email asking that same question. Is that correct about whether it was locked or not. That is correct. Okay. So I just really hope that in the future that we can have a little bit more substantiation of the facts in that regard. So I just would appreciate your consideration in that because when you say anecdotal when you say I heard it from someone who heard it from someone else or the word is out. Good heavens. I mean, we've got we've got a lot of things to deal with in this city. We've got a lot of facts on the ground that we can that we need to address to chase around things that we're hearing that are third and fourth hand is just I really hope that we respect our staff's time more than that. So you may proceed. Councilmember Armitter. So first of all, so I, you know, object to the implication that I'm not respecting staff's time. And I believe that because we serve the people. It's important when we hear people when we hear anecdotes, including even secondhand anecdotes, that we go get them checked out. Did you get it checked out? Yes. And what was the answer? The answer was there was a letter that said a number of things, including that, you know, at the very end, you know, I hope that we've laid to rest this exact quote. But, you know, these rumors or, you know, something like that. So this was my follow up to, you know, question to that. I didn't have a chance to write follow up email with questions, but I, you know, I want and I also wanted to see because it wasn't clear to me from the letter and you answered that, you know, you know, to my satisfaction about kind of where's the quality quantitative difference between, you know, not between kind of starting something where we're about to roll out the policy versus, you know, holding off on it. So I got the answer to that. So I am I mean, you don't have to like the way that I go about it. But, you know, for me, anecdotes are important. I get them checked out. I ask staff by going through the city manager, I get answers and I'll ask follow up questions. So that's how I do things. I will tell you what, I certainly know of situations where your facts were wrong, and you implicated people. The point of order is I'm just responding to your statement. So if you have a question for the chief, let's ask it and he'll answer it and we'll move on to the discussion. Anyway, I feel pretty bullied. We have an anti bullying ordinance. I'm so tired of this. Anyway, moving forward. Okay, so I wanted to address two things. Five minute if you want to take a five minute break. Let's take a five minute break, please. Welcome everybody back to this meeting the density Council on Tuesday, July 16 2019 it is 117pm we are on agenda item to be. We will resume our discussion Councilmember Amater you have the floor. Thank you. So, first of all, so I want to respond. You know what you're saying about being compassionate. I know that firsthand, I, you know, when, when we got to meet the candidates for police chief. You were the first one I met and my first question for you was it was about the homeless and and about, you know, criminal trespass on public property, you know, and, and you said, you know, you agreed with me that. That it was wrong, you know, criminal trespass people for being peacefully on public property, and I could tell by the, you know, the, the look in your eyes. And I'm sorry that that you meant it. So, you know, for me, you know, compassion is, it's not the issue. It's also, it's so I know you're compassionate and and even police policy is really not the issue. It's just kind of by default, you know, and I think you, this just verifies what you've already said, you know, that we have nowhere for for people to, you know, to legally sleep until until we can get and senior king open seven days a week so I can't wait till that happens. I wanted to just comment on on a just a few things and then I'll stop. Number one, there was in the letter, just to mention of something that I hear around a lot. And that is that as our country. We will be joining several other Texas cities closing their lobby after normal business hours, and as our country continues to devolve into more violence I must proactively look at methods to keep our employees safe. Definitely yes to measures for keeping our employees safe employees safety is huge importance. But it's just it's just not true that we're seeing, you know, across the board, rise of violence in this country. You know, if you go to the, the Pew Trust Foundation, there have been studies that that show that we're actually Pew research org fact dash tank that show that violence in America is on a decline. I wanted to mention that, because it's something that I'm not saying it originated from, from that letter but it's just something one of those things that you hear around a lot, you know, and I hear it uses a dog whistle and I know you didn't mean it that way because I know you're not that that kind of person Yeah, I was actually talking in reference to violence towards the police in general, but specifically with regards to attacks on police stations. Okay, so it. Okay. And that would be, that's what. So, that is a difference, and it would be nice to see, you know, if the mention of that maybe I don't know if it can be changed or, or what retroactively it might not be necessary. Thank you for that qualification. And then, you know, I wanted to comment because about you know you're mentioned for you know you're concerned for women fleeing domestic violence, you know, of course we have women and men in those kind of situations but it is predominantly women I want to say that also you're at your concern for, and you know empathy for women in those kinds of situations is another reason you know why you were my personal top choice for, you know, police chief because I could tell you meant it so I know I know you mean that. You know, I know, because I have heard I've heard anecdotally I have never slept in the police lobby, but I have heard that that women use it too. And a number of people experiencing homelessness are homeless because they've fled domestic violence, or they have at the points in their lives, experience violence, and they are there too, because they feel unsafe. I'm mentioning this not to say, therefore the police lobby has to solve this problem, you know, but but but just to mention that. I also want to mention that you know the the the incidents that have been cited, you know people feeling unsafe and physical altercations almost beginning but beginning and various forms of dress. That feeling of unsafe, you know sometimes I, I don't, I don't feel protected but we all feel that way and at different times. And I would want to see as regardless of who's making people feel unsafe, you know in the police lobby to have an, an officer you know someone their presence to make our civilian staff feel more safe. And if that means, you know, and I know we've got, you know, hiring more officers in the, in the, our upcoming budget discussions but that's, you know, something someone to just be there to, to make our civilian staff feel more safe. I would approve of that. So, and then finally, and I'm saying this not to, you know, this is not, you're not in the position of making any policy outside of the police department, but to say to my colleagues, you know, Chief, Chief Dixon mentioned, you know that they can bring people to, you know, various places to, you know, Monsignor King or whatever when they're open or also the Civic Center when they're open. And I know you weren't suggesting this what I'm about to say this is coming from me. But if we could carve out a space in the Civic Center, I mean you see how small the police lobby is. That's a small space and yet people are using it. It's not ideal, but they're coming there by choice. So, if we could carve out a space in the Civic Center with its own door and have a staff who would feel safe there, you know, I don't know how to do that. But if we could do that, I know it can be done. And to have access to bathroom and water and have a 24 hour place until Monsignor King opens up, then we're not putting people out on the street. Because until we have that, there's no place, there is no place where a person experiencing homelessness can legally sleep when our shelters are closed. And it's not the job of the police department to take care of that, but it is our job because it's a public need sleeping. Councilmember Briggs. My question is about the women, like what percentage of women seek shelter in the police station. Because as I've heard and also that when they come in there, it's to seek refuge from rape and abuse in the homeless community. And so, I'm just curious what percentage of women come, because that's my hesitation, right? So if a woman is trying to seek shelter from that type of abuse or rape that is not necessarily fleeing, you know, a home situation, but fleeing a camp situation, what is their option? So we can always direct them to services with friends of the family, or we can try to get them to another service provider outside of law enforcement. I can't tell you the number of women experiencing homelessness that come there, specifically seeking refuge because we don't ask that question, because now we're carving out another subsect of our population. And I'm not sure how we carve out and say, "If you're here for A, you can come in and stay. If you're not here for that, then you have to leave." Because now we're even narrowing our scope even further. So I just don't know where you draw that delineation from. But I can tell you that we have had couples in the lobby attempting to have sexual intercourse. I can tell you that we have had to arrest someone out of our lobby for not leaving when they were asked several times to do so, because they were causing a disturbance. So when I'm talking about ensuring that everyone is safe across the board, those are the things that I'm talking about, specifically. Mayor Pro Tem? Just a quick note for Mr. City Attorney. I would like to get the names of the people that Councilperson Armator mentioned, and then Councilmember Briggs mentioned they spoke to someone. So if you could gather that information and email it to me during the week, I'd appreciate it. I think I'm looking at the letter that was referenced. Oh, sorry, Councilmember Briggs? I'm referring to the gentleman who spoke to all of us before our meeting, who said that women go there to seek shelter from rape and abuse. Kevin Samples? Yes. Okay. Yeah, it didn't have context, so thank you. And then so the other ones would be great. Thank you. So I believe the letter that's been referred to is the one that was in our status report on Friday. Is that correct, the letter that you sent? That is correct. Okay. And so when I'm looking at the letter, you talk about being asked that someone you had a request from a council member about the Denton Police Department. The first was seeking information about the police building being locked with persons wanting access to the building having to contact somebody to be let in. While we are moving towards establishing a business model consistent with best practice and industry standard across the nation, the change has not happened yet. And then we will be joined by several other Texas cities closing on. So somebody had mentioned that the foyer, that there's a lobby, and then there's some other attachment. Yes, sir. That's the foyer? Correct. And the foyer, is that a, I'm trying to remember, I don't know if I go in that many at times, that way to the police department. Is that an entry door to the foyer and then you go into another door to get into the lobby? That is correct. So coming off the street you walk in the foyers probably from this column to the column right there. Okay. And so that area, those doors are unlocked 24/7, is that my understanding? As of right now they are, yes. Okay. And are those going to be locked once the policy is implemented? Once the policy is implemented those will be locked as well. Okay. Outside of operating hours. During operating hours everything is unlocked. From 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. they will all be open. Okay. And so most of the incidences that you referenced, were those in the lobby area or the foyer area or both? Those were in the lobby area of the police station. Okay. Any other questions, comments? Council Member Meltzer? Not for the Chief, but thank you. Okay. Any other questions for the Chief? Council Member Armitter? Would it be kind of outside of standard police procedure, not just in DPD, but nationwide, to have a kind of list of acceptable reasons to after hours when the doors are locked to gain admittance? Because there is always going to be staff there. And, you know, I would like to, you know, if it's okay, I hope it's okay, for somebody, you know, who is fleeing an assault, you know, to be able to gain entrance, it would be nice for a number of reasons, I think, to have that actually in writing so that people know that that's a place they can go. And also that people know, of course, you can't list every possible reason not to gain entrance, you know, but at least, you know, something in writing so that people know. I think that would do a lot for the spirit of community policing, so that people know that the purpose isn't to shut people out, but to make people to feel safe. Here are the people, here are the kind of reasons why people can come to feel safe, and then once you're in here, if you, you know, here's what you can't do. That's something I'd like to see, but I'm wondering, is that something people do, other police departments do? If not, is that something you might be open to, or you don't have to answer that now? Actually, we're already doing that. So we're crafting a message we're going to send out through all of our portals, including the city. We're also going to put signage on the front. All of these processes are going to be in place before we announce we're moving to the business hours. So it's already in process. And will there be a mention of, you know, people fleeing, you know? Anyone that needs immediate access into the lobby will be able to gain immediate access. Okay, thanks. Okay, good. All right. Thank you. Any other questions for the chief? Okay. Thank you, chief. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Any other questions? So we've got -- yes, Councilmember Meltzer. Yeah, for Ms. Barrett. How much -- what is the fee and the insurance cost for a group to come in after hours or off, you know, hours? If you'll give me just a minute, I know that we provided that information during our presentation for special events. And I've got that here. See if I can get to it fairly quickly. Because at the time, there was a request for information on the number of events who, you know, had it and who didn't. And I believe that there were three at the time. And we were increasing the insurance requirements. If you'll just give me a second. And it's not that they have to secure insurance, is it? It's that they pay a fee toward our insurance? Is that how that works? No, sir. They have to -- They have to acquire insurance. Yes. And they have to list the city as somebody being covered under the policy. And we actually had samples of that insurance policy. We're not finding it right away. While you're looking for that, if I could just go ahead and -- we'll come back to you. I want to wrap up the discussion about the proposal for the police department and fire department. The fire department was up there as well for modification of operating hours. So we've had our discussion. I wasn't here at the last discussion, so I don't know who was in favor of what. So those that are not in favor of the proposed -- what would you call this? Policy changes, I guess. I'm assuming those who are not in favor of the police station removing that as a location and the fire station going to those operating hours. Who's not in favor of that? If you're not in favor of these recommendations -- yeah, you're not in favor. I'm okay with the recommendations. Okay. So as far as the recommendations from staff on the police department operating hours and on the fire stations, and we'll move forward with that. And I think I'm pretty confident that the chief will keep metrics once this policy goes in place to sort of see what is occurring on the ground so that -- you know, if there's something we need to revisit, okay. But I appreciate the question and the answer of that there is a policy in place for people who can gain access based upon their immediate need for law enforcement intervention in the situation that's occurring. Okay. Yes, go ahead. The cost for an insurance policy under the current minimum requirements can run anywhere from $300 to $350. And then what's our fee? For rental. Yeah. You know, for the kind of situation like Bridging Hope, for instance. Okay. Oh, the rotunda is $100 an hour. $100 an hour. They would typically -- they or any other organization would typically be looking for four hours, something like that? I believe so. And I can also resend the presentation that we did on the use of the Civic Center specifically because we did break down what the actual costs were when Bridging Hope and Community Market used the facility versus what the rental amount would have been. And that included not only the rental fee but also security, staffing, and the cleaning fee. So I can resend that. Yeah. I have a couple of thoughts that are not fully formed, so I'll try to be brief. One is I wonder if there's a way that the city can accept donations toward a fund that would cover those kind of uses. And that's as fully formed as the thought is. And then the second is, could the Emergency Shelter Task Force be convened to generate some options -- I mean, they've met for a long time, so they ought to be able to do it quickly, I would think. Generate some options for what to do between now and the potential extension hours and KOC. Good. All right. Yeah, Council Member Armitage had a question. Yeah. Oh, no, you can -- because you're going to respond to -- yeah. Okay, go ahead, yes. I'll let Gary respond. Sure. We recently passed a donation and sponsorship policy that we can work through that. We also could work with the Denton Parks Foundation to help with that as well. Okay. Good. All right. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, so I was going to add -- and I do think that's a good question. I appreciate that answer. Kind of just the way I see it, you know, we do accept money from the public for these kind of things, and that's taxes. And it's up to us to decide how we spend it, and people don't have to spend it on this. You don't have to spend it on this, but we get to decide how we want to spend it. I think that spending a small amount of money to cover the cost of local organization that feeds the poor every Sunday. And I encourage people to go there to Quaker Town Park on Sundays at 3 -- does it start at 3? Sometimes they go until 4, sometimes they go until 5. It depends a lot on the weather. But I encourage people to go. It's really a beautiful community space. And I would think it would be nice to have, you know, a couple more picnic tables out there. But I just think it's a shame. I'm sad that we're not going to allow them to just come in from the cold to feed people. I mean, it's so little, it's so basic. They're bringing all the food. They're bringing the volunteers. You know, so I'm not going to get all religious on everybody since we're, you know, in a public government place. But anyway, thank you. Okay. Any other conversation? Yes, Councilmember Davis. We've looped back to, I think, one of the most important points on this policy, and that is the question of leaving an organization -- and we mentioned this a couple different times in this conversation -- leaving an organization out in cold with this policy. I think what we do with this policy is we set minimum standards and rules that apply across the board no matter what kind of organization we're talking about, whether it's a nonprofit like the community market or it's a nonprofit that's a little more hands-on with the community like Bridging Hope, to the point about how do we kind of meet those gaps if that organization's not able to make use of our facilities, either because they can't pay the fee up front. The three times I'm looking at that presentation you referenced and the three times this winter, early winter, January, February, and March, that they use the facility. We're talking -- averaging about $750 a time they used it, and then we looked at that as fee waiver. All we're doing at this time is saying they would have to pay the fees up front, and then we would have the option as the Council to go back and reimburse that later on if that's brought to us. If it's a question of an organization having the budget to float the $750 fee, that's a conversation I'd like that organization to have with the community, and I would like to be a part of that conversation with meeting that need and that budgetary need. That's an organizational need. That's not necessarily a systemic City Council top-level policy decision. If it's a question of an organization having met the insurance requirements, again, that's something we require for anybody who uses our facilities, whether they do good work or whether they're having, you know, a trade fair or something. They've got to have insurance. It's just an across-the-board requirement we have to put in place. If an organization does not have the wherewithal to get that kind of coverage, I'd like to speak with them about how the community can meet that need with them rather than dictating city policy to one specific organization that does good work. Thank you. All right. Any other questions or comments on this agenda item? Direction? You've got direction? I believe so, yes, sir. Okay. Thank you. Following these changes that we discussed, a specific change to the policy would be that the 50 age, I'm sorry, 50 and up age requirement for Senior Center and American Legion Hall. That's really the only change to the language that we can make prior to this coming back to you tonight as a consent agenda item. Okay. Yes. I do have one question. You talked about business hours, right, where anybody could walk in and inclement weather. Well, what happens after 9 o'clock and there's still inclement weather? I mean, what -- and, you know, there's no shelter or -- I mean, that's just a gap that we're not considering or is there something where -- that I'm missing here? Both our shelters, MKOC and Salvation Army, will open during inclement weather. That's still their choice to make of when they open up, but they use those general parameters for weather. They just need to get the volunteers and resources up in time to open for those evenings. And Salvation Army does extended beds, so they have a set amount number of beds, but during inclement weather, they'll set up cots and additional beds. So they have additional capacity at their facility as well as MKOC. Councilmember Armitage? Never mind. All right. Any other questions? Fantastic. Thank you all. I appreciate it. All right. Moving on to agenda item 3C, receive a report and hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding gas well issues, including setback distances in Denton, setback requirements in other area cities, legal and development issues, notification disclosure requirements, and information concerning a gas well setback distance study. Good afternoon, Mayor, Councilmembers. Tony Puente is handing out a revised presentation. There were a couple of references that we had to correct in that. So it's been corrected online, and you have the current copy as it appears online. As was stated in the AIS, this is going to be a multifaceted presentation. We'll talk a little bit about setback distances to start out with both Denton and regionally, and then move into some land use issues, legal issues, circle back to talk about notification and public information, and then talk a little bit about a setback study. So I thought I'd start out a little bit just talking about setbacks and hopefully be able to identify kind of what we're talking about with a graphic. So if this is a gas well pad site right here, if we have a protected use with our 1,000 foot setback in play, if the use is there, that would actually be to the wall of the building that exists. So that's how that 1,000 feet is measured. So you're dealing with it from the edge of the pad site to the wall of the building. If it's an undeveloped subdivision lot, you would actually be to the lot line. So in almost all cases, you're going to gain a little bit of additional space in those circumstances. So that's for a standard setback distance. We've talked quite a bit about reverse setback distances, sort of similar, still measured from the edge of the pad site. 250 feet is our current reverse setback. Protected use with a building in place, you're to the edge of the wall. If you're in a situation where you've got an undeveloped subdivision lot, you'd be to the edge of the lot line. I also wanted to include a little bit. We typically haven't talked when we've talked about the setbacks about assembly, education, and institutional buildings. Those are basically controlled, setback distances are controlled by the fire code. And in this particular case, what it is, is it's a 300 foot setback edge of building to the closest facility on that property that actually has flammable or explosive materials. So in this particular case, if this was a tank here, you'd have a 300 foot setback distance to the wall of the building. So I just thought that would help us kind of clarify these individual setback distances as we're talking about them. So Denton's had quite a long history with regards to setback distances. When we first started out in around 2001 regulating setback distances, we put restrictions in place at the time. We really didn't have a code that dealt with what we referred to as a protected use. We tended to fall back on the fire code, which is assembly, institution, or school. And so in these particular zones, there was a restriction of 500 feet for those particular types of classifications. So move forward into 2002, and you can see that we expanded the zoning codes quite extensively. Just for your own information, I've included at the very end of your presentation a listing of these zoning codes because they are kind of hard to remember which one is which. We continued on in various iterations, keeping with that theme around 2004 and 2005. There were a lot of changes that were done in here with various ordinances. For example, we did the road impact fee, road damage fee that we put in place, and there were a couple of other changes that were made to the code during that time. I believe watershed protection permit was one of them. So in 2010, we actually derived what we use now as a protected use. And it was defined as any residence, church, public park, public library, hospital, or school, and then later on that year, we defined a residence as a home, a boat, or a place where an individual is actually living at a specific point in time. A structure, part of a structure containing dwelling units or room units, including single-family, two-family, multi-family, boarding houses, et cetera. So at that point, the setback distance was actually increased to 1,000 feet. And we didn't have what we called a reverse setback in at the time, but we did have a 250-foot minimum. Ultimately, we ended up moving forward in time to get to the 1,200-foot setback and then the actual reverse setback that we use today. And so this was modified at the time to include measurements of Gaswell site plan boundary to close this exterior point of the structure, as we just talked about a little bit ago, to a protected use, or if you had a proposed subdivision plat, the distance from the boundary of the Gaswell to site plan to the boundary of the site where the plat at property was at. So that was modified in 2015 due in part to the implications of HB 40, and that was actually reduced from 1,200 feet to 1,000 feet, and we retained our 250-foot reverse setback distance. So moving into kind of what the landscape looks like around our area. Dr. Banks, let me interrupt you. I'm sorry, yes. Go ahead, Councilmember Armitage and then Councilmember Briggs. And after these questions, you got how many slides? About 25? 25 slides? Yeah, probably. So if there's a -- what I'd like to do is if there's a presentation sort of subset where, you know, we can ask questions sort of at the end of sort of -- like this is setbacks and you just had some introductory material. Correct, correct. So this is a good place to break and have some questions and then we'll listen to the setback and then just so that we can try to stay on track. Councilmember Armitage. Thank you, and by the way, I will say on that note, you know, so this was supposed to be like a big one-day lunch discussion, and obviously we've got so much on our agenda, so I would be all for -- I'll just kind of plant this seed in people's minds. I mean, if we start feeling rushed, you know, I would be fine, you know, continuing some of it at another date. I mean, this is a discussion I wouldn't want to rush just for the sake of rushing, but we are time constrained, so I don't know if anyone has any ideas about that. Anyway, I just wanted to ask if you could speak to the minimum variances for setbacks and reverse setbacks. Kind of going back a slide. Right. You can have a variance on the protected use. The ZBA can actually reduce that, and Aaron helped me out, I believe, to 500 feet. And then I don't believe that there is a variance procedure that exists for the reverse setbacks, but again, I'd like to defer to Aaron just to make sure I'm telling you the correct information. That is correct, Kenny. Okay. So we've got, sorry, 500 foot minimum variance for setbacks, and the 250 is the standard for the reverse setbacks. And has a request for a variance ever been denied since under this gospel ordinance that you know of? I am not -- I'll answer that. Okay. As far as under the 2015 gospel ordinance, there's not been a single application by any gospel operator to decrease the variance, simply because there just hasn't been much activity out there. There was in 20 -- I think it was 2013 -- 2014, as we were going forward and we had a moratorium, in fact, there was a variance that was requested by Vantage to be allowed to continue with the process of getting their gospel permits. And that variance was granted, but that was a variance to a gospel moratorium that we had while the city was preparing the update for the 2015 gospel ordinance. Gospel moratorium, that sounds so good. Okay. Councilmember Ritz. Well, on this chart, you can help me remember, because when I first got elected, we were working on what was the ordinance that was passed here, but in that process, HB 40 happened, and so we ended up changing what we were going to put into it. So what were those -- can you help me remember? Was it 1500? Mayor, do you remember? I don't ever recall a 1500. I think there were discussions about 1200 versus the 1000 when we were having those conversations. I mean, I think that there was a lot of discussion that happened at that time, and there were a number of changes that were made not only to the gospel ordinance, but to elements that linked to the gospel ordinance throughout the code. 1500, if I recall the conversation correctly, it's been a while, but that was discussed because that was the setback distance that existed at Flower Mound at the time. Okay. And that was brought out as a part of the conversation, but I don't recall ever having a direction or a consideration for 1500 feet. And again, Aaron, if I've misspoken, please let me know. That is correct, Dr. Banks. Okay. Well, it was just in that -- it was like in limbo. When I first got on council, there was an ordinance that was being worked on, and it wasn't -- I don't think it reversed that back. I was just trying to get my mind in what that was, and then HB 40 happened, and we were like, whoa. Right. So I'm just trying to remember what that conversation was. Councilmember Briggs, if I can answer that question a little bit better, because I was more involved in that process. But during 2014, that year, even before the frack ban election, staff was working on a gas wall amendment to the 2013. At that time, the discussion with setbacks was 1200, and then when House Bill 40 came back out, and given what I will discuss later as far as the four-part test on the House Bill 40, we had to then analyze the law with what we had and had to make changes or recommend changes to the council. So I will elaborate more on that during my part of the presentation. Well, in just some historical context, the 1200 feet, I was on council at the time when that occurred, and that was my recommendation or suggestion. Only because in the gas well ordinance that we had before us, we had 1,000 foot, but then we also had 1,200 foot from our Ray Roberts flood inundation. There was some 1,200 foot setback standard for some type of water source. And so that's why we moved it to 1,200, because it was, I mean, if we got a 1,200 there, why can't we have a 1,200 from protected uses? So that's how it got to 1,200 from 1,000. So taking a look at kind of what the landscape is here in the DFW and area, took a look at an article that was produced by Matthew Fry at UNT. He surveyed 48 municipalities taking a look at both setback distances and reverse setback distances. So you can see from the graph on the darker area that the setback distances, there's a fairly large range of them. The most common by far is 600 feet. That represented about 62 and a half of Dr. Fry's surveyed cities. And going, I'm sorry, 62 and a half is 600 feet or less. Going forward from that being 650 feet or more, that was about 37 and a half. And you can see the most common setback distance in that group is that 1,000 foot setback. Somewhat similar information that you see on the reverse setback, there's a lot fewer cities that actually have reverse setbacks. So there were only nine in his sample size. And about half of them had reverse setbacks of 250 feet or less, a little bit more than half. And about four had greater than 250 feet. Now, one thing to really keep in mind about this is that where the measurements are done is very critical. So you see wall to well is a fairly common measurement. Sometimes you'll see that go from equipment to wall. So this would literally be the first one would be the wellhead measured in a direct line to the wall of whatever building you were assessing. Equipment to wall would mean something that's on that pad site property that's being measured with that same methodology. For us, on the reverse setback, we're doing site boundary to wall or to an additional boundary, like, for example, in those planted subdivisions where you would measure it to a lot line and not to an actual structure that was there. >> Real quick question, Dr. Banks. >> Sure. >> On the fry survey, we don't have what that standard of measurement is or was or do we? >> We did not. They were simply the number of feet that were specified in the ordinances that they took a look at. >> So the ordinance didn't specify here's how you measure that from this point to this point? >> It probably did, but that was not included. >> That wasn't included? >> Yes, correct. Now, I will say just based on my knowledge that it is more uncommon to have the edge of the site to the edge of a lot line. That gives you quite a bit of additional space, exactly how much I couldn't tell you because it depends on where the equipment is out on the site, and then it also depends on where the home is ultimately located on the residential lot. >> Councilmember Melzer, did you have a question? >> Yes, I'm understanding this slide. So nine have reverse setbacks of 38 -- sorry, 39 don't, right? >> Yes, in this particular survey. >> And in the survey, when you say -- or when Dr. Fry says they don't have reverse setbacks, does it mean there is no restriction on building up to an existing wellhead, or do you mean -- or did he mean that it's symmetrical? >> I -- >> That the distance is the same in either sequence of -- >> I don't know that that was looked at in the research, but I can say that the fire code is always going to be a prevailing setback distance. So to say that it wouldn't have any setback distance is, in my opinion, not going to be accurate. >> But it may be the case that the majority here are symmetrical, whichever sequence? >> I guess I'm not following what you mean by symmetrical. >> Same distance, whether the well goes in first or the property. >> Oh, there could be some of this subset that have a 600-foot, for example, both as a setback, regardless of whether the well is there first or not, if I understand you correctly. >> Yes, that's what I'm asking. >> Exactly. And -- but you also have to keep in mind, that's when it gets a little complicated, for example, Fort Worth has a 600-foot setback. They also have a variance that allows the setback to be reduced to 300 feet. So not only do you have a situation where you may have a symmetrical in Fort Worth is like that. It doesn't matter which comes first, the measurements the same, but it still has a variance process by which that distance can be reduced if that variance is approved. >> Okay, thanks. >> Sure. Just to kind of give a check on the research, we surveyed 38 DFW municipalities at staff level. And we found some fairly common information. Our subset had a little bit greater percentage of distances that are 600 feet or less. About 81% were 600 feet or less. By far the most common was the 600-foot setback, and about 19% were greater than 600 feet. The most common one that was greater than 600 feet was the 1,000-foot setback. And one in our particular group had a fairly long setback distance, say one that was picked up by Matthew, a flower mound at 1,500 feet. Did you make a distinction between -- are those similar -- they don't make a distinction between the well coming to the well or the well coming to the development -- go ahead. >> It's -- that wasn't evaluated in this particular subset. I know of a few. For example, flower mound does not make a distinction about which comes first. So they're 1,500 feet is 1,500 feet. I know that Fort Worth is the same way. 600 feet is 600 feet. >> So in that 81% that are 600 feet, you didn't see anything that -- I mean, there may be a variance based upon certain criteria, but they didn't distinguish between who was there first. >> That is correct, although that was not specifically what we were evaluating in the research. >> Again, I can -- there's -- I'm not familiar with any of them that don't have some form of variance process, and then you always have the default back to the fire setbacks. >> Mayor, I just wanted to elaborate on what Kenny -- Dr. Branks is talking about, the flower mound, the 1,500-foot setback. That setback was adopted for flower mound in 2011. >> Right. >> And the last gas well -- well, I should say the most in number of gas wells that flower mound has ever had is 19. They're all on the western edge of the city where it's very rural. And that the last gas well permit that was issued by the town of flower mound was back in 2009. So this measurement of 1,500 has not been tested before HB 40 and after HB 40. So I just wanted you all to put that in perspective on that setback. >> Thank you. >> So one of the -- I'm sorry. >> Can I ask a follow-up question to the city attorney? >> Sure. >> So it's my understanding that nobody has been successfully challenged under HB 40 and had to change their setbacks or reverse setbacks as a result. Is that correct? >> I'm not aware of any operator filing a lawsuit against the city on the setbacks. I just don't know the answer. I know that there's been very, very little drilling activity in the barnet shell as a result of the low natural gas price. >> Thanks. >> One of the key elements with regards to setback distances is how much physical space an individual setback distance actually occupies. And so the staff from development services have put together an interactive map that can kind of show what that looks like. And then also some rough cost estimates in terms of impacted acres at a couple of different price points. So at this point I'm going to hand this over to Haley. And she can walk us through this. And Cody. >> So just so that I think you'll probably address it, but when I read the first line, impacted acreage, I thought I had seen some studies or some information data about this way back when, 2014-15. So I want to make sure I understand what the slide is saying. So let's just take, for instance, the thousand foot setback. So if you have a well, and that thousand foot is measured from the pad site, is my understanding. >> Correct. >> And we take 1,000 feet around that whole pad site in sort of a circle. You're saying that that takes out, that that 1,000 feet contains 9,000 acres? Am I missing something? Or is that eight? >> No, I can explain that a little bit if you like. >> Okay, good, because I was like, holy cow, something, I'm missing something. >> No, so this is a look citywide at all of the pad sites that Cody has mapped. >> Total, that's the total. >> Correct. >> Of all the circles on the map. >> Correct, with the exception that the first column here, the 250 foot is kind of the base. That's where we're at today. So it's currently 1,809 acres affected by our 250 foot reverse setback. The numbers going across from 500 to 1,500 are what would increase beyond where we are today if the setbacks were increased citywide to that amount. And then same thing here with the cost estimate. We took just a couple of examples at either 70,000 acre or 80,000 acre what the cost of that land within the 250 foot is today. And then going across what that would increase by where this reverse setbacks to increase. And then same thing with the number of parcels. This is simply the number of parcels that are intersected by our 250 foot reverse setback around all of the pad sites on the ground today. >> So quick question on the cost analysis of both 70K and 80K. That's supposed to represent what you think the market value is that is lost, that is -- help me understand, what is that? >> So those are numbers that we got from our real estate department on kind of the average we're seeing for an acre of land in Denton. And so this is the assumption that -- and I think Aaron will get into this a little bit more, but if there were a takings claim or something similar, this could be the potential cost of that land that was affected by the reverse setback. >> Okay. >> But again, that's looking citywide at all the pad sites. >> That's just a sort of a number. Okay. >> Yeah. So if there were any questions about specific setbacks or what they would look like, if these were to increase beyond 250, we can pull up the interactive map and certainly take a look at those. It's here if we need it. >> Councilmember Briggs. >> So are those -- you said all the wells, are those just the wells that are still developable around? Because there's some wells that are -- there's already development around them. So does that take into account -- does it take those out? >> This is just citywide every pad site that we have mapped. So it would include the land that is already developed. We do have some data we can pull up that looks specifically at undeveloped land that could still be affected by this. If you're interested in that as well. >> That's really what we're talking about. I mean, if it's already developed around, then that necessarily isn't a fair assumption on what kind of land we're losing. >> Sure. What you're saying is if there's a subdivision already there and it gets subsumed by this thousand foot or 600 or whatever, that value's already there. It's not as if something's being taken off. And this is for purposes of the discussion on takings, which is going to be interesting. >> Right. >> So I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> I just wanted to get -- I just wanted to know that for my own personal benefit. I mean, because we're not going to -- if this goes -- if we didn't make any changes, those wouldn't be affected. >> I understand. >> Okay. >> I would love to see at some future point that map with existing developments in those zones, you know, mapped out with it so that we could see -- or, well, or the opposite. Or, you know, showing where there are undeveloped areas only in those zones. >> I think this may show that. So I'll let the code kind of walk you through what this analysis works. >> Okay. So here, let me pull up -- I have -- I guess methodology is not in there. I think it's -- this one. Here we go. Here's the methodology for how I came up with this -- these set of maps here. So we began with the current land use that had undeveloped or agricultural. And with that, we intersected all the 2016 FEMA floodplain and then erased the existing pad sites and then anything that was an industrial zone and then made sure it was all inside the city limits. So what you see here, this particular map with the red, that is the remaining developable area with a 250-foot reverse setback from all existing today pad sites. And then going on, it increases 500 feet, then the 600,000 feet, 1500 feet, and then it's all compiled here together in one map so you can see the additions from each. And so, for example, this 1500 feet, that would leave you with the remaining 17,000 acres of developable land. Yeah, I was just going to just observe that that is -- that's a, to me, kind of significant area that can still be developed. You know, we have, you know, right now, I mean, these are the areas in which we're expanding, too, in many ways, and are building, you know, expanding roads to meet the growth and keep up with the growth. So, you know, I see kind of one advantage of having 1500 foot setbacks is that it also, you know, slows down the growth to allow our infrastructure to keep -- I'm not saying that's the reason why you do it, but it's a side effect while still allowing for places to, you know, for new development to happen. Councilmember Meltzer. Yeah, thanks. I want to make sure I'm understanding this table because I think it goes almost right to where we need to go. On this subject of whether or not to be looked at as a taking, right, are we really talking about column C? Like, as we move up from -- as we move down from row three to row seven, that's the number of acres that would be taken out of developability? Is that the way to read that? Additional acres beyond -- Well, you're at 250 today, right? Yeah, you should really probably be looking at column B. That's from today. So that takes out the 250 that's just existing. So even if you went all the way to 1500 feet, that's the biggest number on the chart. It's 3146 acres would become undevelopable. And then what was your per-acre figure for -- We were looking at either a 70 or $80,000 price range. Okay. So, right, that's really the dollars, to Councilmember Briggs' point, that would potentially be affected by a change in that? Correct. Okay. I'll work my calculator here. Okay. All right. Okay. You all can move forward. Okay. I think we're ready to hand it over. I think Aaron is up next, but we just wanted to make available whatever maps and data we have, if there were any questions, we could look. Yes. Mayor Pro Tem. Could you email me -- first, that is absolutely phenomenal. That's first. And then two, if you could email me the maps and that graphic, that'd be fantastic. And, you know, your assumptions, just that whole deal. Methodology, all of that. Yeah, please. Thanks. The City Attorney's Office has engaged in the legal risk analysis with respect to whether the Council wishes to increase the regular and reverse setbacks, something to take into consideration. There are four different laws out there, or actually three laws, and then a legislative process that we wanted to bring to your attention. I will be covering the House Bill 40, vested rights and legislative preemption. Trey Lansford, Deputy City Attorney in our office, will be covering the takings claim aspect to it. Before I begin, I just want to let the Council know that as we provide you the law, we're basically giving you what the law is, and we're explaining that at a higher level so that some of it can get complicated. Two, some of it we've had to interpret, and that is our legal interpretation. What we've presented to you may not sit or be well received by certain sectors of the community. We just wanted to let you know that our duty is to provide you the best legal advice that we think is accurate so that this Council can make the policy decision and to ensure that it's informed in doing so. So with that, I'll begin. As you all know, in November 2014, the citizens of Denton approved the frac ban petition to outlaw fracking within the city limits. Shortly after that, in addition to a lawsuit that was filed by the Texas Oil and Gas Association and the Texas General Land Office, the legislature went into session and started commencing to draft House Bill 40. It eventually was passed. The effect to the Denton's frac ban was to nullify it. And through House Bill 40, in the opening section of House Bill 40, the Texas legislature made it very clear that the state has exclusive jurisdiction over oil and gas operations. Oil and gas operations are defined in the statute, and it basically covers all the activities that are involved with the four stages of gas oil development. Drilling, fracking, development or production, and plugging and abandonment. And it made this very clear in three separate places that it has the exclusive jurisdiction. During the, right before it was passed, Texas Municipal League was able to negotiate with the drafters of this bill and Texoga and other affected entities to get back some authority to regulate within House Bill 40. And we've listed here, and this is basically a summary of what cities are allowed to regulate. It gives us, for a city of Denton, like Denton, it gives us the limited authority to regulate activities related to oil and gas operations under the strict four part test. And the first one is the activities that occur at above the surface, and it gives a list of different types of activities including reasonable setback requirements. If you look at those examples, those are more of the traditional land use police power regulations that a city passes. They're not the actual oil and gas operation activities, such as frac ponds, a glyco dehydrators, the number of well tanks, etc. In addition, any regulation that a city passes must not effectively prohibit operations. It also must not be preempted by federal state law, and it must be commercially reasonable. Commercially reasonable is defined in the statute, and basically it is based on an independent, reasonably prudent operator. It is not based on whether the city believes that an operator is capable to comply with the ordinance. It's based on what a reasonably prudent operator would consider is reasonable. As I mentioned, reasonable setbacks were not defined. So it meant earlier the setbacks were presented by Dr. Banks as to what we have here. We do have the 1,000 foot setback for new pad sites, and the minimum setback requirement, it's actually 500, but the minimum that existing pad sites can go down to is 250. Now, there's been questions asked as to how did we get to the 1,000 foot, because we had in 2013 the 1,200 foot setback. Well, during what, excuse me, one of the legislative committees that was considering House Bill 40, and I can't remember who was in the finance, I'm sorry, in the Senate or in the House of Representatives. But basically, there was a legislator who was on that committee. He went out and discussed his opinion on reasonable setbacks. He was formerly a mayor out in a West Texas city that had a lot of oil and natural gas wells. And he mentioned that in his city, they had a 1,000 foot setback requirement, and things have operated just swell out there in West Texas. So I think 1,000 feet is reasonable. With that statement, that's part of the legislative intent and history, that comment, that's what we use to put as a setback for new pad sites to be able to sustain any type of legal challenge under House Bill 40. And again, it's for new pad sites, so what does that mean? That means an oil and gas operator comes from out of town, is going to start from square one, they find a piece of acreage out there they're going to get under mineral lease, and there's nothing there. They start the process by filing a gas well development site plan. That's what that refers to. For everything else, which is what we have in the city, these are known as existing pad sites. And one of the reasons that the city council at the time decided not to increase beyond the 500 and then the minimum down to 250 is because many of the existing pad sites, when they were first drilled, they were in areas of the city that there was no residential subdivisions. I mean, 20 years ago, there wasn't anything down to the southwest side of the city, or even on the west side. Over the last 10 to 15 years, residential subdivisions, which are protected uses, have encroached upon the existing gas well pad sites. To require highest setback would most likely violate parts two and four of the HB 40 test. So that's why the setbacks stayed as is. Yes, we might just flesh back on two and four. It's not effectively prohibit operations, it must be commercially reasonable. Prohibiting operations is if they have one well, the lifespan of a well is three to five years. During that cycle, a natural gas operator will come in and do work over and maintenance to try to get as much natural gas out of that well. But sooner or later, they have to drill the second or third or move to a different location altogether. And for reverse setbacks, House Bill 40 doesn't address reverse setbacks at all. However, as Trey will explain, there is a takings claim issue that council should take into consideration as it considers raising reverse setbacks. For that, I'll turn it over to Trey. I think Council Member Howard has a question. Yes, ma'am, I have a question. So I've read House Bill 40 and I encourage other people to because it's really short. And I have always just been stumped by that commercially reasonable and find very little explanation within the law itself for what that is. So, you know, given that it quite hasn't been tested, you know, what's your legal perspective on what that means in terms of precedent or application? I can give you the general meaning of that. What's generally accepted in the oil and gas community, especially the legal community, is the reasonably prudent operator standard is what is developed in oil and gas law case law. And so that's a term that they incorporate. This bill was drafted by the oil and gas industry. And so they use the terms that are commonly accepted in their industry. That's how this ended up in there. It's something that you're right. Is it common in the municipal field? No. But that is what the law name was incorporated. So thank you. I think I think that's really well put way of describing it. And I wanted to add just for the for the public, you know, kind of one thing about the the timeline about how it happened that a lot of people don't know that that after HB 40 was passed. It didn't just automatically make the fracking ban go away that council had to repeal the fracking ban. So they count council repealed the fracking ban in response to that. Whatever one thinks about that or not, you know, but that that's a fact of what happened that just some people don't realize that's what happened. There were other reasons for that. But those are attorney client privilege. Unless the council authorizes me to release that there was another different reason for that for that action by council. I'm not at liberty to say. And now turn it over to trade. Good afternoon, counsel. I know you've already mentioned potential for taking claim several times. Well, I'll kind of lead us through this. But as you know, typically when government needs property taking claim raises from a physical invasion of property. However, there are situations where the city can effectively take properly through regulation and those are called regulatory takings. A regulatory taking occurs when a regular regulation destroys the value of private property or deprives the landowner of the land itself. The U.S. Supreme Court has stated that when you're considering whether a regulation progresses to the extent of a regulatory taking the extent of interference with distinct investment backed expectations is a factor to be considered. So we just wanted to bring that to your attention and a situation where there is a regulatory taking after the fact typically you will see that raise itself as an inverse condemnation lawsuit against in this situation be the city by either developers or landowners. So going back to the 2015 gas well ordinance amendments, which we've discussed a little bit regarding the reverse setbacks when it was talked of raising the reverse setbacks from 250 feet. Both the real estate development community and the landowners raised a potential takings claim because we were proposing 500 or the proposal was a 500 foot reverse setback at that time. The argument was that the increased reverse setback rendered a large portion of their land unusable. We looked at the map earlier just in a general example of acreage. If we were using a thousand foot setback that it was approximately 72 acres. So if you had a three three acre well pad site in the middle and you had a thousand foot reverse setback from that well pad site. You're down to effectively 72 you're down to 25 acres that can be used from that original hundred thousand feet if they sorry. Sorry, I messed that up. Yeah, 100 acres set 100 acre site around a thousand foot setback equates to 25 acres that are now usable of that thousand of that hundred acres. So, that was their kind of example argument back then. And with that, it was Council's decision back in 2015 to keep the reverse setback at its current level at 250 feet. Regarding the setbacks themselves, the thousand foot setback for the new pad site was based on the legislators testimony as Aaron mentioned just a moment ago, and the 250 foot setback for existing pad sites, most of the existing pad sites were encroached by protected uses like residential subdivisions. And increasing the setback increases the potentials for a taking claim, as well as Aaron just mentioned a moment ago it violate it could potentially, they argue a potential violation of parts two and four of House Bill 40. Have there there been any successful taking claims filed since HB 40 or before about reverse setbacks against cities as Aaron mentioned earlier, we're not aware of any specific once no ma'am. Okay, thanks. A legal defense and this is something that was raised last fall when Council considered this last back then was that the regulation could be passed in the interest of public health and safety to abate a nuisance. The problem with that is that the Texas courts have been very clear that you can't just declare something to be a nuisance you have to prove it to be a nuisance. And so in a situation like this it would be up on the city to prove that the gas wells in this situation present a public health or safety issue, and would require an extended setback or reverse setback. In that situation it would end up going all the way to court and scientific evidence would be necessary. I have no doubt if that came down to it, it would end up being a battle of the experts. And we would have experts saying one thing they would have experts saying basically the exact contrary position. If let's say that I don't know what the truth is, let's say the truth is that a valid study would show that it is a nuisance. So there's some scientific relationship between a well done study and the truth. So if they had, if that were the case and they had studies that said the exact opposite, then wouldn't they be invalid studies and be able to be shown to be so? I mean it's not a kind of overly cynical view of truth. Having, well having gone through eminent domain process and stuff like that with, I mean you can equate it to the same thing of an appraisal of they might have a different methodology, but so long as there is a basis for it, it will most likely pass a Robinson and Dahlberg challenge and at least be presented to a jury or finder of fact. So we don't act, among us, we don't actually know what the facts are that would be revealed in the study. I won't go on and on, you get my point. I guess though, Council Member Meltzer, when you said a study, of course, you would have to pick a setback distance in order to conduct that study. I mean that's, the Fort Worth study, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, the Fort Worth study that came out at 600 feet, the charge was not give us what the safest distance is or whatever that standard of measurement or characteristic is. It was, is 600 good enough? Does it meet a certain criteria pursuant to the test? And if you need to expand on that. So it didn't say that that's the minimum it should be. It just said that was the charge was give us 600 feet and analyze this based upon 600 feet. They didn't say, tell us what the setback is or should be. Is that, is that my correct understanding of that? Okay, I'm hearing, okay. I know that's coming further in the deck, but I'm just talking about whether we should accept on the face of it that no matter what the truth is, you can have a valid study that will show you the opposite of the truth. I just question that as a going in assumption. Well, so this is way off course, never mind. I think, I think when you're talking about this, I'm not saying you're way off course I'm saying my comment was going to be. I think you can see in certain kinds of issues today, which is really part of this so I'm going to tie this into this discussion, because we're talking about gas well setbacks we're talking about environmental concerns and the like. So you have a whole global discussion. About climate change and not climate change so you have people saying here's scientific evidence showing it. You have other people saying here's scientific evidence not showing it now you can say which one of those you believe, and which one you believe is the truth but I think his point is well made and that is people can present different versions and in a trial either the judge or a jury is going to be the trier of fact to decide, who do we believe in this particular situation so I understand the, the, the spirit of what you're saying unfortunately I think when you get into this kind of forum. But, you know, the reason why we can we can make this this assumption that it will be come down to a battle of experts is because of what we see out across the country whenever a study comes out that stands for one proposition in the oil and gas industry there's going to be a counter study that does that, or, in some cases like what happened in Colorado when when Lisa McKenzie came out with her study that Colorado oil and gas commission said, we don't even accept the methodology used to determine how you got arrived your conclusion so that is what is going on outside the court system accepted anything that said, that'll be challenging will be challenged. Yes, yes. I think, trade, it's significant. Could you touch just spend a second on that on the, the test for if a study comes in so you you, what did you you named it, I forget the name of it but doubt Yeah, thank you. Yes, could you touch on that please because I think that's important to understand that there's how it gets in or just kind of how it's quanta, how it's analyzed to see if it gets in, you know, right, it gets considered. Well in general terms is that you've got to show a scientific basis for the study or the or the expert testimony, it's really towards the testimony that's to be presented is that when you present a challenge like that, it's against the testimony that your expert is trying to offer. And so to get by a challenge to your expert, you need to show that there are that their methodology and the science behind their testimony has a basis. And if I may, and so to that end, I think, I don't know, I didn't see it here and forgive me if it's if it's jumping out at me, but I think that's as I've listened to the comments today I think we need numbers, right, I think we have a number for we have a number for the study. But I hear, if I'm reading the room, some people are going to say hey well why don't we be the lead the charge to try to upset the apple cart or at least find out whether, let's find out how deep the water is. And so I think it's important to understand the cost to lead that charge one I mean because you're talking about the entire state, it would set a precedent right and so I just want to understand the cost, the legal cost to see where that barrier is right I think that's because that's what we're, we're tasked to do is if we're looking at a budget item that says hey if you want to go find out if I'll use a crazy number 3000 feet is too far. I'm happy to do it. There'll be a lawsuit. Here's what we anticipate that cost to be, you know, so I think that would be just important to consider because that's where it all goes right if if if you're right if we're right, whoever, ultimately, the resolution would be in the courtroom. And I just want to understand that that number. Right. I don't know I mean I'm not even going to be giving you a specific number because in a situation like that we would be the defendant. And so part of it's going to be depend on how hard or what exactly is pushed on the inverse condemnation side. But if you take into account the multiple experts that will be necessary to support our position, and all the legal counsel time, I mean it is easily, easily six digits. If not. Yeah, if not higher. Sure. Thank you. So, so, where a city can prevail and show that it was, it did its action in the name of public health and safety. There is the potential that it could still end up paying the landowner gas operator. If the setback number was determined to be unreasonable, and in a situation where it gets this far there are three factors that come into play. First is the economic impact on the interest holder that we that the landowner that's trying to develop land or the mineral interest owner, the gas well operator to the extent the regulation interferes with a distinct investment back up expectation, and three the character of the governmental action. And I think part of that third factor comes to what you're saying, Mayor pro tem is that if part of the decision is to push the envelope. How far do we push the envelope and that's going to be a factor in determining if our action was unreasonable or not. Okay. I think it's important to make a distinction here. Because you have when the mineral interest and the surface interest are the same, then the setbacks, they sort of impact the same individual person or entity business entity based upon their investment backed expectations for the surface portion. But what we have in Denton is a lot of severed mineral states, we've got one group of people or entities that own the mineral state we have some that own and then you have another group that owns the surface in the original kind of fight issue with the whole setback, so it was the oil and gas industry that that was pushing back, which is the mineral state, depending on, and it's not just the city of dent but whatever anybody else wants to do, typically because there's not that much development going on. And again I asked for, and I don't need to, we may have it I've looked through here and forgot it since a couple of days ago but, you know, what would a change of the ordinance, how many of these things would it really impact because so many of these are already vested. So the change in the reverse setback is going to impact the surface owner. It's not going to impact the gas well operator. It's going to impact the surface owner which it could be some some entity, totally different. You have a whole different set of issues and concerns and drivers moving that issue forward than you did when it was primarily the mineral owners who were taking, you know, who disagreed with our setback discussions or our fracking, the fracking band affected the mineral owners. It did not affect the surface owners unless they were the same and somebody's trying to get mineral interest. So Councilmember Davis, and to your point Mr Mayor also we had conversation earlier appointment earlier in the conversation gas prices are low right now development is at a low of new wells. Land prices, however, are very high. And even though development is not, development could pick up in some of these specifically these areas we're looking at that have a lot of oil and gas development, prices can go up in those places. So, and then also, to your point, we have a different set of motivations. When we talk about how we're going to get into a courtroom on some of these things, then you know there are landowners that would have be highly motivated to to challenge us with the takings claim their landowners who may not be as highly motivated. And we also have to think about. We're not necessarily talking about today's landowners we could be talking about landowners, some point in the future. So, the, and I think trays about to get into the vested rights and some of the things there, but it's important to consider to that across the city we have a patchwork of different rights that neither the landowner or the mineral owner or the city has any absolute right in any of this conversation there's a whole patchwork of different things that exists well before our setback conversations continued began so as we continue going forward it's one of the kind of keep in mind. There's not, there's not an easy black and white yes we're going to get sued not we're going to know we're not going to get sued, we're going to get sued for x number of dollars we're going to get sued for some other number of dollars. There are an enormous amount of variables in here and I think when triggers into the vested rights conversation it gets even more complex. So if we could, you know, get through it is the vested rights the last portion of the legal present of the presentation from legal, how many more sections are two little sub two more subsections that Aaron's going to cover. Okay, yeah, let's get through that so we can sort of wrap up the, if you have any questions for the legal analysis I mean we're the questions that we're asking are really out there in the sense of what we anticipate is going to happen but those are necessary to ask to get our, our, you know, option so yeah if you could council member, Mayor Pro Tem, if you could take the gap. Yeah, so when we evaluate legal risk we're looking at takings, but you know if at some point, somebody else does a study, we don't do it, somebody else does it. And they find that we're allowing a certain number of diseases, premature deaths, fetal deaths, because of our policy encouraging development within, you know, up to 250 feet. Is there a legal risk to the city in that scenario. I would be hesitant to say that there would be a study showing that the city's causing it strictly because it doesn't have a higher setback in a situation like that, I think, even if a study were to come out. That is focused on a certain very low setback that that study would have to be reviewed by city personnel plus probably outside consultants to determine if it is applicable to city condition city position geography. Everything else that's involved, I don't think that we could just take a study at face value without, you know, whoever, you know, let's say somebody else goes through the battery that maybe we're not willing to go through and it survives because let's say because of the, I haven't seen one study yet that says it's perfectly fine. Every study from other places, but they all say, you know, fetal death and neurological issues and so on. So I'm just going to guess that, you know, somebody does go through the battery, it would show that wouldn't that wouldn't that amount to negligence on the part of the city. If we permit that to exist, I don't think that that would amount to negligence just because we didn't react based on one specific study. You're saying a study that stands up to whatever the scientific evidence is that stands up to the battery that you've suggested would come up, you know, just what you missed mayor is I'm asking is there a legal risk of inaction because of health risks. Well, and that's a that's a that's a legitimate question, I think, for a forum, but I think we're asking questions of our attorneys for legal advice or legal analysis and I'd really want to make sure that some of these we might need to ask in close session. Okay, it might need to be. Yeah, that I hear. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not saying you don't need asking if you can answer it in general kind of sense that's fine but right, leave it up to you. And in a general sense like that we would also have to consider eliminating other potential causes for whatever may have been found in the study, including, you know, other types of pollution or other other sources of contamination. So, um, before before I turn it back over to Aaron, I wanted to come back to Councilman Davis's point about potentially affecting future landowners. Just as a comment, we do not believe that if if Council were decided to raise the setbacks, we would not expect just a flood of lawsuits to come immediately. Specifically, especially if we're discussing reverse setbacks we would expect those to come in as as development moves forward as a developer is ready to develop the land or as a landowners trying to now do something with his property that would trigger a reverse setback we wouldn't just expect a flood of people to come in if they've got no current plans for their property. So, but I'm going to give you my, just on that topic, my concern, individually, firsthand knowledge, I'm sitting in a room with George P. Bush, the general land office, and he has less than an acre north of town that gives him the right to sue us. That's how he joined in on that lawsuit. And so that exists. And so that is my concern just, I sat in a room with them and said how in the world that you end up in this case, and he has meant he has authorization over the mineral or whatever it is and that piece of property sits there. And so he was in the first case. And, and so I, I absolutely agree with you but I absolutely think that that would we'd be right back with that one entity, because they have, you know, he has interest in asserting his, you know, whatever. Right and certainly it's going to be, I mean, there's the potential, but general expectation. Thank you. Thank you. So, with that I'll turn it back over to Aaron. invested rights. And somebody I mean, during our public hearings, we sometimes have developers that will come up or staff mentioned the word vested rights or the developers vested in that this in this regulation or in that regulation. What exactly are they talking about. They're talking about chapter 245 of the Texas local government code which is also known as the Texas freeze statute. So what does that statute do it basically freezes the regulations, the city's regulations on the day that an application for development is filed with the city. And so, any changes that the city makes that could potentially impact that development won't necessarily apply under because that's that's what the best thing is they're protected against future changes. Unless the developer wishes to accept one of the changes, if it benefits his or her development. And when we talk chapter 245, we talk about projects, development projects. Now, another question that commonly comes up that we're asked is, do do does a developer lose vested rights when the property sold to someone else. No, they don't. It's the vested rights run with the project that development project not with the ownership so there's a change in legal ownership, but the same thing still applies. There are certain exceptions to, to the vested rights statute and those are were attached in your AIS for the in the in the backup that's included for today. Erin could ask you just one question of clarification. Yes, sir. When you talk about vested rights and you say they run with the project. And the same thing. They run with the land. In other words, if you have a vested right of whatever code you're vested in your. Are you fixing to talk about project. Yeah, it's a little bit broader. Mayor what a project means under the vested rights. Okay, so it could be. Okay, gotcha. So I'm premature in my question. Go ahead. The the project, the definition of project under the vested rights statute means an endeavor over which a regulatory agency exerts its jurisdiction for which one or more permits are required to initiate continue or complete the endeavor. It's broader than that it's actually not just the land but also what is proposed to be developed on that land. In the city of Denton we started hearing more and more about vested rights after the, the Austin Court of Appeals issued its decision harbor part two versus the city of Austin in 2011. That was one of, you know, I shortly after I arrived here, I had an outside attorney that raised that with me in connection with with a development project, researching that I learned about what the case was all about. And it was basically it boiled down to the how, what is the correct interpretation of a project is our cities and developers to interpret it narrowly or broadly. And just to just some brief facts about some to kind of illustrate that point in harbor part for city of Austin. The, the practice, the original developer of Harper Park to filed a development flat in the city of with the city of Austin for property located in the ETJ. And so, some of you who have been on PNC are used to the plots and they come forward, we know that in the ETJ we have less regulatory authority. So the those plots are very minimal as far as depictions and requirements. On that plot, the original developer had a whole bunch of lots and he put uses on them so he had office use on one commercial we hear residential and what the developer was proposing to develop was a mixed use development. And for some for for, you know, due to there was various reasons but that development kind of language changes in ownership. One person going bankrupt. Eventually, during the it was sold to the person who brought the lawsuit against the city of Austin, but before they bought that land, the city of Austin had annex that property into the city. And so, the city of Austin was as any other cities areas whenever the change of project comes. They wanted to to impose the city current regulations. So what happened. Harbor Park to came into the city of Austin's development department and said you know what, this was labeled as office, I want to change it to hotel, and the city of Austin's position was well, that's a change in the project, it was office now is hotel, you have to comply with all the regulations for that lot. That is a narrow interpretation. Broad interpretation of project is what the developer said. It's all commercial what does it matter office hotel, it's all commercial you should treat it as commercial. That's the what the project is. Going through the litigation the Court of Appeals said what the legislature intended was to for through the vested rights statute was to provide as much protection to developers against changes in the rules, so it's cited with the developer, that project is supposed to be interpreted very broadly. In Denton, we used to and apply the narrow interpretation that any new well is a change in project. And that was our position until and as we get to the 2013, which is the next slide. Until it's gas well operators started pushing back and saying, additional wells is just a continuation of the project, there's no difference. And so, with the city of Denton before I get to the to the next slide. We started regulating gas well development. And I don't know the decision, the reasoning behind it, but the city decided to require development plots, it's a type of plat under sub chapter B of the, of the plat statute, which is chapter to 12 of the local government code. And that's how we regulated them. Other cities don't do this. We did, we did back then. So that is what also puts has led to the decision of what happened in 2013. But I wanted you all to know that because that that is the process that the city used from the late 90s until 2010. So what happened in 2013, specifically the fall? Well, at that time, some of you may remember there was Eagle Ridge started drilling out two pad sites, they were adding additional wells. And by that time they were these wells were in close proximity to metals, the residential subdivision. These pad sites were originally constructed by you with Eagle Ridges predecessor in the early part of the last decade. After those pad sites were constructed and they were in production home construction started in that and I think Dr Horton was the developer builder at the time. Those homes encroached upon the two pad sites. In 2013, Eagle Ridge decided, you know, we need to add some more wells because these wells are old. We need to drill new wells to get new life out of the gas that's underneath. And so they started, they started drilling and I forget the number of wells but they had at least one on both sides. The city, we found out about it our gas administrator is issued a notice of violation to Eagle Ridge that they had to comply with the 1200 foot setback, because they were expanding the original project. Again, that's the narrow interpretation, Eagle Ridge pushed back and said no, we're continuing development. And as we permitted the broad interpretation. When, when the Eagle Ridge refused to stop drilling, the city council authorized our office to file a lawsuit against Eagle Ridge and specifically the we filed a petition for injunctive relief here in the, in the Denton County District Court. And we were seeking a permanent injunction to get Eagle Ridge to stop drilling altogether. The, the judge at that particular who was assigned our case scheduled a temporary restraining order hearing which is the first process in that in that litigation. And it was at that, that hearing that we fully learned exactly the legal argument Eagle Ridge was using to in support of their vested rights claim. As I mentioned earlier, we use the guess well development flat process to approve these. So that the plat that they the two plots that they were, I'm sorry one plot that they were drilling on. And it was approved by the city in the early part of last decade had a platinum that indicated something along the lines as the number of wells to be drilled at this site depend on the success of developing the mineral state. Then they produced a guess well permit that with the city had issued that we didn't have in our files. The, the guess will permit contained language that this permit authorizes them to drill one or more wells at each pad site. And then the guess will ordinance definition at the time of that the permit was authorized. Define the guess will permit as authorization to drill one or more wells. Putting all those three together, you read said the city's already proved us to drill as many wells as as necessary, and it's consistent with our Harper part two. The district court agreed and denied our TRO request. And shortly after that, the city council authorized the city attorneys to dismiss the lawsuit. We separately engaged in the settlement agreement with Eagle Ridge to address the issues but you know what happened here and why the vested rights issue is very important is because the city staff has recently started putting reviewing all those older guess well plants. And right now they're finding a significant percentage of all those old gas well development plants and the permits issue before 2010, contain the same or similar platinum and guess well permit language. And and many of these plants are still in effect. And some of you who are here in 2015. One of one of the incentives that we tried to ask guess well operators to to trade in their guess well development plots was to bring in to file for a guess well development site plan under a reduced cost schedule, a reduced reduced fees, so they can come in and have and then basically extinguish the guess well plots. Nobody came in that I'm aware of to do that. And so what does this mean that it means that going forward, any changes you made to the gas well ordinance, such as setbacks or other issues, guess well operators can continue to argue that they're vested in the old rules not withstanding any amendments you make. So, surely there are other cities in in a situation situation somewhat like this. Is that can you speak to that or, as I mentioned earlier that we're the only city that we're aware of that that's it down the guess well development plan process to regulate them everybody else use more of a site plan, and then didn't didn't even. They created their own oil and gas development chapter which is apart from the development process to get it out of chapter to 12. That's really interesting. Thank you. Councilmember breaks on plots do they not have a time where they expire. No, as long as long as it continues as long, what they're proposing to do is to drill the pad site, and, and as long as they do that. Then that Pat that plat will continue going forward, indefinitely. It's when they plug and abandon it and then basically have. They have nothing there, then we would start applying the there's there's a it's it's not in your. In the exceptions but there's another provision in the best rights that would allow us to declare a dormant. Maybe that's what I'm thinking about I remember in our conversations when we were talking about the ordinance there was some kind of we wanted, we were talking about the time, a time issue of something that when something started then it would trigger and then it would have to be done. Yes, there was certain amount of time or then it would just be done. Yes, what you're referring to is what's also in part of the dormancy provision is that we issued. Whenever a plot was approved or permit was approved that they had a certain timeframe in which to proceed to the next step if they didn't do it then that that authorization would expire and then have to go back to start from the beginning that is legal and and but that that assumes that they've come forward and file that new application and then the or the next permit and that that we haven't issued anything in quite a while. In a few years. So I think this is probably when I talk to people about gas well setbacks and they talk about grandfathering in developments or grandfathering in that they use that term I think this is probably the situation they're referring to the most often kind of the situation that's been on the ground for a long time and I think the thing, the way that I conceptualize it the thing that makes it the stickiest and maybe the most difficult part of the three kind of legal hurdles you're laying out for us today is that these are vested rights that we the city gave to the gas well operators and so that's what makes it so difficult for us to then turn around and take them back by by any means. Try to extinguish them with setbacks or anything else or any kind of regulation. So for me this presents I think the the biggest hurdle to changing the setbacks you know you've got the inverse condemnation which there's a lot of variables there who's going to sue us who's not what our values going to be. And then you've got the legislative preemption which are going to get to in a little bit you know that depends on the legislature making decisions that's out of our hands we never know what's going to happen there. I'd be really interested in hearing any any available solutions you may have here because we know the outcome of these kind of lawsuits, because you just told us about the Harper, Harper Park to and Austin. You told us about the lawsuit that we were already in with one developer at one time and made the decision dismissed because we would have lost. Is there any way around the the vested rights argument that doesn't include a lot of litigation that we will probably lose. And I appreciate those comments I know you said the city gave them these vested rights. This it was the state. Yes, I mean they filed for a permit with us or a plat. But it's the state that said, when you do this, this is what happens. You know so it's it's the state that is really vested those rights with those developers based upon that state law. Sure, but the city is who granted them the plat as I guess what I'm saying so that the vesting the vesting of the rights that the concept of vested rights that comes down from the state and the state court saying this is what your vesting rights get you and this is how long a project persists, and that the vested rights run with the life of the project. As far as deciding to give a plat to the well, that's something we did and I think that's what makes it I think that's why we lose lose this at most turns. And then there are ways I mean that they can lose vesting but you know in the oil and gas, natural gas industry here and the plants that we have. This is going to be a challenge in the traditional sense what we what we see is when a developer comes in and voluntarily does an action to to get rid of those vested rights and the one that's more common is a zoning rezoning when they do that and they come in voluntarily and say you know what I'm I want to resolve my land I know that I have this plat that I approved for the under an NR for it's not going to work for me I want an arm you they're coming into file the rezoning guess what happens once they rezone they voluntarily. Now are caught up with our new regulations even though there's a plot out there because the plot won't be able to be developed consistent with the new zoning so that there are ways it's easier in the surface development context and the gas well because they're not necessarily doing that they're not asking for zoning or rezoning there. They drill where the gases. Yes, go ahead. Is it also possible for a either the owner of the surface rights, the, let's call them the developer, somebody be exercising the rights of the surface, or the mineral rights owner to waive these rights and other ways. So if a developer comes to the city for some other kind of agreement that they can negotiate away these rights they, they could have a argument they can make in court about vested rights later on, but in return for something from the city they can negotiate that away. That that's going to be a private agreement and we do see that from time to time there are some mineral leases out there where the, the original surface and mineral state holder has, you know, and as part of giving, or they call it a mineral lease it's actually a deed, an agreement to convey the whole interest, and they'll they'll put in certain conditions as part of that that the operator will not interfere with any surface development development that there is going to happen on the surface in other types of conditions as part of that transfer. And, and so, you know, they could theoretically through us in these, you know, do that in the mineral lease or in a surface use agreement, they can do that but that's a private agreement between the two in and they are out there and the ones that have those kinds of that you'll see those are usually on the west side the northwest side. And they're owned by one family in particular those are the plots that we usually see. But, the, but there are others that also have that those kinds of things but again it goes back to what are the privately contract if the, if the, if the, if the transfer is subject to a condition that you will have a 500 foot setback from any, you know, then that's privately negotiated, and it's up to the person, the person who gets the reversionary interest back or the original conveyor to actually go to court and file to to get that to be that condition to be honored or complied with. Yes, I'm thinking maybe more about the situation where, let's say a developer comes to the city, and they want an SGP or an ADP, or where developer comes to the city and they want to establish an MND. And the city says, in the case of a rezoning or SGP or something, we might say, sure you can do that but you're going to have an overlay that requires you not to do x y and z, or in the case of MND we say sure you're able to do that but here's our, our parameters, and you're going to have a voluntarily imposed setback that have kind of kind of waves this vested rights claim. As part of the negotiation for that type of development in the agreement associated with it. It's no different than when a city, kind of like the city of Austin does when they negotiate economic incentives, and they're proposing to give one to a in some cases a residential subdivision developer will give you 20%, but 10% of that of the homes in there are going to be affordable. So the same and same kind of negotiation can be had in this what it what it truly is that MND is an economic development negotiation. Yes, even if we find ourselves, you know with our hands tied with setbacks, kind of across the board, or if we have to make kind of some cost benefit risk analysis decisions on setbacks across the board. Okay, the last one is just preemption. I always in the back of my mind because it's happened to the city of Denton already. The either one of these two industries the real estate and gas oil industries can go down to Austin, and as for a, the governor to call the special session or wait till the next legislative session to preempt us. Just some of you already know that the real estate and the gas oil industry their lobbies are in the top five most influential in the state of Texas. I don't know the ranking but they're in the in the top five. The, what they would probably ask in the form of preemption with if it's the gas well operators they would want to to eliminate that four part test that regulatory authority that we have under House Bill 40. And when it's if it's a real estate lobby they'll probably want the state to create a uniform setback minimum, you know, throughout the whole state, and that cities are prohibited from going beyond that, and, and see that's, you know, the legislative climate you mean we see every legislative session local control being eroded further and further I mean, this is this is something we have to raise to you as a possibility of what can happen, and it has happened to us before. Do we do we keep up with from the Railroad Commission wells that have been plugged, or officially abandoned, you know, designated by the operators as such, within the city of Denton. I'm getting confirmation that we do. Okay, because I think that's one way that we can at least keep track of, because if somebody's abandoning a well, or they're plugging a well, or a series of wells within a gas well development plat. If we're able to keep track of when that occurs, and therefore that use is no longer occurring. And then this can run this time frame can run. And so, it's it's sort of a really small minor opportunity but I think with the passage of time, as we've seen from the beginning of the Barnett Shelton now, I mean, things are. It's just, you know, these fields have their cycles. And so I think it's important that we do keep up with that so that we're able to. And then there's some developers who literally buy out the wells. Yes, and, and then they extinguish those, those, those vested rights by by private party agreement and things such as that so Councilmember Briggs did you have a comment. I just wanted to make a comment that when we originally brought this conversation back it was because there was a, an item that came to us and they wanted to build apartments around 250 feet reverse setback and there were several of us on council that didn't feel comfortable with that. And so, we were just kind of coming back to the table to see what we could all agree on before we kept denying. And so I am not comfortable with the 250 feet and I just wanted to go ahead and say that being what it is on the reverse setback and I understand all of what we're being told here. But I just want to say that if an item were to come to us, and that would be the minimum reverse setback that I don't feel I would. And so if that comes up, I don't want to anybody to throw that back in my face because I'm just saying it here now that I wouldn't feel comfortable. Okay, voting on it. And I think we're going to have some discussion here shortly on do we want to have some discussion on changing that or changing without I mean discussion on all of it. So, yeah, I appreciate that. It just felt like the conversation was getting really down and negative and I just kind of wanted to throw that back out there. What we were here for and how that got started. I think when you get down into legal weeds, you are talking about worst case scenarios and things such as that so I can understand the sense of negativity. Unfortunately, this is a necessary process, but I think you'll see when we get to some of the other sections of this presentation, we'll come back to discussing is there an appetite for this council to do something different with the current setbacks that we have. Yeah, and that's why I preface at the beginning, what I said. I totally understand why we have to have this conversation. It's, you know, you got to know what what the risks are. Okay, who's, who's, do we need to take it when was the last time we had a break a week break okay five minute break. Yep. I lost track. It is 318pm. Again on the 16th of July 2019. We'll resume our presentation. Afternoon council. Wanted to continue on some of the other issues that touch on gas wells and gas well setbacks. Specifically wanted to talk a little bit about required notification. There was quite a bit of work that was done in the 2015 code and some modifications that we've done since then to get information out require certain notifications from operators so, for example, on the operator side. Prior to filing a gas well development site plan application, each surface property owner within 1000 feet of the site is to be notified by us mail that's to be at least 20 days in advance of the application filing for any activities that include drilling completion or installation plugging or abandonment anything that requires the removal of a wellhead any seismic exploration that's being done. The operator is required to provide written notice by us mail to all dwellings within 1000 feet of the boundary. No more than 30 days before the activity no less than 10 days prior to the start of the activities. Signage requirements, just letting people know what's going on at the site, what is what is their 24 hour notification or contacts or any types of emergencies. So all of that's required by the code and that is actually checked every time we go out and do a gas well site inspection, both by city staff. And also by the contractor that we have for those services. So, on the, on the developer side for a plat that proposes a single and multifamily residence that will be within 1000 feet of a drilling or production site the developers require to disclose that fact to all purchasers as described in the ordinance. Some things that we've done at staff level is quite a bit of build out on the gas well inspections website page so you can receive notifications of gas well activity we have the gas well locator map that provides all the information. What are the key issues that we did on the locator map over the course of the last about a year and a half is provided information on an individual well basis for all inspections that are done both in house and by our outside contractor. So, not only can you find out information about the well itself including all of its permit information from the state. You can actually find out how many times it's been inspected who's done the inspections what the findings were and literally download the report of the site inspection that was that was done. So, we have heavily promoted this residential update newsletters quick links on the on the web page on the on the main web page, and then some information in the citizen connection utility bill inserts. And with regards to the emergency notification sign up we've really been promoting the code red system for getting emergency information about the gas well sites and have promoted that through a variety of different means as you can see. One of the other things that we've done is we've really tried to put some information out there to make the website more user friendly and really let people understand what we're we do organizationally to address the inspections on the site. So, social media pose to promote and increase awareness of the online tools and then there's an email notification sign up that exists on the website. And then a couple of fairly recent additions is an instructional video on how to use the tool on the gas well website so we that you literally can watch a video of how you can look up all this information and obtain the information that you're trying to get. And then we did recently a Denton works video that really shows exactly what's done when we do a gas well inspection on site so we had both our gas well inspection staff and the outside contractor that we're using provide information on that video and really walk through what they do when they're out there on a gas well pad site. Again, just trying to get people familiar with how the process works and what we're doing at staff level to ensure these sites are run well that leaks are taken care of and that we're assessing the air quality and particulate matter leaving the the sites as well as on site conditions. So, that's kind of a break point does anyone have any questions about those Councilmember. I just had a brain freeze. Without taking lots of time. If you could take 30 seconds on just code red. How do people get notified. Yeah, just what is that. It's basic, basically an emergency notification system that will send out an automated text, you, you go on to the website. You, you sign up for it, and then you will get an automated text of variety different times and maybe at a weather emergency and could be a fire emergency there's different types of notifications but it's a it's designed to be a broad scale emergency notification system. And, and if one of those emergencies related to gas well near you, you get a text, that's correct. Thank you. That's my breaks. Yeah, so in our ordinance. Is there a reason why we don't regulate line compressor stations. I think in the past we were told that that was something that Texas Road Commission does but I've recently found out that Fort Worth and Mansfield do do that. Lift compression but not line compression. Right. We, we, we only have a couple of those in our city right now. And you are correct they are regulated by the Railroad Commission I don't believe that there is anything within our current ordinance that that provides us regulatory authority for those. One of them happens to be co located with a gas site that we inspect anyway and so we are measuring air quality on that particular one we've not seen any issues on it. The other one exists on the other side of town and is quite far away from everyone but to, to, so we haven't seen concerns with them but to get to your question, we do not have a regulatory tool in our ordinance right now to actually regulate those, those types of compressors. Yeah well I mean I would like if possible to think about if there's something we could do add those to our list since we already have somebody inspecting those or you know what would be possible. Thank you. Yeah and I'm included with that kind of also to see if you know some sort of comparison on the Mansfield and Fort Worth line compressor regulations the way they do it. And, and then, and can you, can you answer and so sorry I was just about the Texas Railroad Commission to what extent do they, or did you address. Okay, so to what extent is Texas Railroad Commission regulate these line compressor stations. They, they are required to be permitted their operational reporting conditions that they have to to provide that are related to admission factors that come from the compressors and other ways. I don't want to oversimplify but it's kind of like a car exhaust if you, if you put an X amount of gasoline in you're going to produce X amount of emissions are required to report that information. Probably more those are the ones that I'm familiar with. And is it just kind of a like a long distance kind of paper permitting process or they got come on site and I don't I don't think it's accurate to say they don't come on site I think that there is a, you know, there is an expect an inspection component that is done by the Railroad Commission. For example, we have a contact out of the Wichita Falls office that we've contacted multiple times come here to the city of Denton so I don't know with what regularity they inspect or whether it's based on the reporting information that they that they get but I know they have inspectors that go out and look at all of their permitted, you know, gas well sites themselves as well as the line compressors. So they'll come so so as far as Denton's. We know they've come when they've been called, but we don't know. Yeah, we but in fairness we haven't sought that we haven't asked them, you know, they've just come when we've had an issue that we needed some help with them on. Thanks. Okay. Second to last slide. Guess we'll set back study is something that was has been brought up before we provided some information on that in an informal staff report that was provided to the council at the end of last year, December 21st of 2018. We were asked to put together some information on how a study like that could be put together and some estimations of what something like that might cost. So, we, we worked on basing that on the Eastern research group study that was done at the city of Fort Worth we've talked about that before. There, a lot of the 600 foot setbacks that exists out there were based on that study or based on Fort Worth use of that study. And so, this was done back in 2010 to 2011. We did talk specifically with the project manager on that study. And as was mentioned earlier that study was only designed to evaluate the, the existing setback at the time which was 600 feet in the city of Fort Worth. Interestingly, they also analyze line compressors there were a couple of components of that study that were specifically designed for that issue. There's a lot of common big combination of a lot of sampling and a lot of dispersion modeling to try to figure out kind of what exposure levels for. At the end of the day, based on that approach we outlined what we thought of study like that would need to look like for the city of Denton. First and foremost, we need to complete an ambient air monitoring study to establish a baseline. That baseline is very important. That's why, for example, when we go out and we do fence line monitoring with our current system, we are monitoring both upwind and downwind of every site that we're looking at because we want to be sure that whatever we're seeing on that downwind side we can verify that it's originating from that pad site, not originating from off site. So ambient air monitoring, a baseline, is very important to have. Complete a study to characterize emissions from the actual natural gas point sources. This would be, for the most part, Wells' possibility of other types of equipment like, for example, they did the inline compressors at the ERG study for Fort Worth. They then used accepted defensible analytical methods for monitoring. They basically used a variety of EPA accepted methodology for doing the monitoring on these sites. These were listed quite extensively in the ISR, and I won't go through the entire list. One thing that we recommended in addition to what was done at ERG is there's some new technologies that are out currently that offer some ability to do higher end analytical for at least comparable or perhaps even lower cost. So you're pulling a large amount of air through some sorption technologies to actually collect those molecules you're looking for out of the air and then analyzing those sorption tubes at a later time. So we thought that might be a promising method to use in this particular application and also something that was accepted by EPA. Use that information to do air dispersion modeling. By getting all of that information together in an air dispersion model, you could actually see what that looks like collectively as a city and evaluate the exposure levels. And then use defensible health-based screening levels for public health evaluations. For that particular study, they predominantly use the effect screening levels and the air monitoring comparison values that are put together by the TCEQ. Those for the most part line up or in some cases will be a little bit more stringent than the EPA standards that are accepted nationally. I will say that also just along those lines that those are the same types of end points that we're using for our current monitoring that we're doing at each of these individual sites. So just so everyone's aware, we're doing fence line monitoring on the moderate and high priority sites. And basically what we have found, we've only had one instance out of 238 monitoring events for those two subsets of sites where we've had an offsite screening value that exceeded our screening criteria. We at that point brought out our contingency sampling instrumentation, which is basically a field deployable gas chromatograph mass spectrometer. Very, very high-end analytical upwind and downwind sampling on that particular one. So even though there were hydrocarbons leaving the site, the hydrocarbons were predominantly methane, keeping in mind that we're using a very, very low threshold for migration off of the site. In terms of everything that the GCMS could analyze, we saw no values that exceeded health standards according to the air monitoring comparison values, and that included benzene and benzene derivatives. We specifically looked at that. Council member, I would like to ask a question. So a question about the $2 million cost, would most of that be one-time cost that would also include air monitoring equipment that would be ours to keep that we could continue to use indefinitely? No. So going to that next bullet, what we did was we took the amount of costs that was associated with the study in Fort Worth, and we applied a simple year-over-year estimator to get to what we feel would be a current cost associated with that. These types of studies, the company is going to come in and they're going to use their own instrumentation. They're going to field deploy. They're basically going to perform the assessment, and then they will go use that instrumentation to do another study for someone else. So that roughly $2 million, and keeping in mind this is hard to gauge, we think based on the inflationary value that $2 million would be adequate for doing this. There's a little bit fewer wells, but if we are looking at trying to look at multiple distances, then it's going to run the cost up because Fort Worth was only doing a single distance. So roughly estimated at about $2 million and would take about one and a half to two and a half years to complete all said and done. And I think it is important to point out that if we do observe an exceedance of those standards during the course of this monitoring event and study, it's unlikely that the TCQ would accept those results without additional monitoring and evaluation. By the commission itself. So I think that if we did happen to find something that exceeded values that would gain the attention of TCQ, done this way, that would definitely be something they would want to look at, but they would want to come in and do their own study just to ensure that they're following methodologies, etc. So I think Councilmember Meltzer had a question. Yeah. So, is this just our internal kind of bootstrapping from that one study or did you do any kind of RFI to academic organizations or, you know, multiple sources who might have, you know, different, different approaches. Right. It is a combination of both of those. I did talk specifically with the contractor that we're using currently and talked extensively about the methodologies that were available. So I didn't solicit many different sources, but I use the ERG study. I talked specifically to the person that was the project manager, the ERG study, and then I also talked specifically with Dr. Tram at Modern Geosciences to say, look, does this make sense to you? Here's the instrumentation. Here's what we're talking about doing. Does that make, you know, does it seem like we're in the ballpark? And the answer that we got was yes. Do you think an academic study would cost the same as an industrial study? I don't, I wouldn't necessarily characterize Modern Geosciences as an industrial study. Keep in mind they're heavily affiliated with University of Texas, and it's been my experience that your academic studies are probably going to be on the same order. I mean, we wouldn't know unless we put this out for a bit and know who, you know, shows up for it, so I'm speculating a bit. But I think we would see comparable values between what we see on the "private side" and what we see on the university side. But you wouldn't exclude the possibility of a surprise that somebody might have a different approach, or doesn't science often work that way, that just different people have different approaches? There, it's likely that there would be some small tweaks on that, but if we want this to stand up to scientific validity to the maximum extent that we can, I think it's going to have to follow a general pattern that is going to be very similar to this. The same EPA methodologies, there may be some slight differences in the way the air quality data is used within a model, but you're still going to be using defensible models. You're going to be using accepted methodologies. If you don't, then you run the risk of someone -- your study simply wouldn't be held to that same standard. So we had a very thorough discussion of legal risk and land use risk, and that's part of us making prudent decisions, but our primary objective is protecting health, safety, general welfare, so we haven't yet really had a discussion of the public health and safety risk. And I wonder if you have -- I'm sure you're far better acquainted with literature than any of us. Do we have any idea -- with legal, they talk about things that they don't know will happen, but they thought could happen, so do we have any idea based on the literature of what the public health and safety risks might be basically to inaction? For instance, in terms of deaths or disease or fetal death or -- why are we even talking about this, in other words, if there's a public health and safety risk? There are -- we've had similar conversations in the past. It's very formation dependent, so a study in Colorado isn't necessarily going to equate to a study in the Barnett Shale or in Pennsylvania or what have you. The type of hydrocarbon that is being removed from the ground is important. Is it predominantly oil? Is it predominantly gas? Is it sweet gas? Is it sour? Does it have a lot of hydrogen sulfides? There's a lot of different variables that you have to deal with there. I can only go with what I have observed from directly running the on-site monitoring that we are doing on every well site in the city over the course of the last year and a half. By the end of this year, we will have visited even the low priorities that we're sampling every other year at one time, and so we'll have a full set, and we're getting pretty close to that now. The ones that are moderate and high priority, we're actually doing the fence line monitoring and the more extensive screening, and that's why I think it was important to bring up that one particular incident. That is the only time that we found something that, from a hydrocarbon standpoint, exceeded our fence line monitoring screening criteria. Now, keep in mind, that's not 250 feet away or 1,000 feet away. That's right there at the fence line. We set up the instrumentation upwind and downwind, and basically we did not exceed any air monitoring comparison value for long-term exposure to any contaminant that was run through that instrument. That's all I can base my opinions on at this point. It's not a small number of samples. It's 238 times that we've gone out there to those sites, and now does that mean that more work is not needed? Absolutely not. We keep this, I mean, it is extremely important to our group to go out there, either in partnership with our outside contractor or on our own, and make sure these sites are being looked at, they're being assessed for leaks, and we're doing everything that we can to reduce emissions off of those sites. I think we have clean sites. Do we find leaks? Sure. You find leaks on a pretty regular basis. Are they leaking to the extent that we're measuring compounds of concern off of the site at the fence line? We haven't observed that. Thank you for that. And just about the Fort Worth study, is that very different from Denton in terms of formations and practices? They're both in the Barnett Shale, so it's going to be relatively close in that regard. The study was done about nine years approximately ago. I think that instrumentation is going to be better. Modeling techniques will have advanced a little bit. But that, to me, is the closest study that we have had in this area specific to the Barnett Shale that looked extensively at public health endpoints, modeled those public health endpoints, and attempted to attribute or determine whether the setback that they had at the time was within what they deemed to be tolerable risk levels, which was basically harkening back to those air monitoring comparison values. So could a better study be designed? Sure. Absolutely. But I think that's one of the best ones that we've had in this area for this particular conversation. Sure. I have a question. When you say fence line, could you go back to your very first slide? Right. And just give me an example of -- because when I think of fence line, is that the fence line around the pad side? Is it around the actual equipment? So what are we looking at? And, you know, I'm a little uncomfortable because if it isn't evident, this is quite schematic in nature. So I want to describe exactly what's going on. So if this was a pad side and the well is right there in the center, typically you're going to have a fence surrounding that or you're going to have an edge of pad. That's going to be what we're calling the fence line. So it is well inside the 250 feet in this particular example is measured from that edge of pad out 250. So where we're going to be at is right there. Do you try to -- because just using that photo, that schematic, which is just an illustration. Right. How do you determine where on the fence line or on the boundary line to maybe do your upwind and your downwind? There's a meteorological station that is deployed at the site that gives us wind direction, wind speed, all of those. Make sure you get it right. It's triangulated based on where that's at. And again, I want to also say that we are completely going on to this site and assessing everything with FLIR, with just standard VOC snippers and all the other equipment that we have, radiation, particulate matter, et cetera. We're walking this site and analyzing it. So we're not just staying outside of the fence line. I'm just saying that's where we do our fence line monitoring. Well, and just your description of the process. I mean, I'll just say, number one, appreciate the presentation. It's a lot of great information between you and legal staff. But over the years, I've always appreciated, number one, your intellect and your smarts. I'm going to embarrass you if you don't mind. You already did. Thanks. Well, between mosquitoes in West Nile and gas well development and as far as determining where can we place these things to give us the best and most accurate information. I appreciate your diligence to just the scientific process and to your profession and your craft because I think I can rely upon the information that you give me as I can all staff. You just really make sure you lay it out in a way that helps me with the details. So I appreciate that. Well, and I appreciate the compliment. But I also want to point out that it's the staff. I understand this. It's the outside contractor. We've got many, many people that are dedicated to doing this. I appreciate their service and just how you bring us the information. The best information we can have, at least at this point, to make or not to make informed decisions, whichever way that goes. Okay. Questions, Council Member Armitage or comments? Very interested to hear about the monitoring proposal or the figure and everything. I'd love to see at some point just kind of more of a breakdown of what would be involved in the costs and kind of echoing Council Member Meltzer's to see local universities, even if the cost is the same, it would be neat to make it kind of more of a local, or at least to look into the possibility of making it more of a local effort involving some of our more directly local scientists. And maybe, I'd just be curious to know also what the cost is of having an air monitor and what's the O&M of actually having that equipment. So that's something I would like to see. As far as the reverse setbacks, for our fire department, they've got, I think, 500 feet both ways that they recommend. The typical fire department is going to be 300 foot setback from a place of assembly, institution, or educational. And it's both ways? Yes, it's a 300 foot setback. So I, you know, because Flower Mound, and I understand that, you know, they're different geographically than we are as far as on the shale. But I would like to see Flower Mound's gas well ordinance, you know, applied here with line compression monitoring worked into that. So I would like to see something like that. And I wonder, and they have 1500 feet setbacks and reverse setbacks both ways. And, you know, I find really interesting, you know, kind of the legal arguments about the plats and the arguments for takings, you know, to me. I mean, it's something that, you know, we haven't seen, and I know there's this, the unique case that you talked about, the unique case for Denton. But outside of that, you know, we haven't seen any, you know, kind of successful legal challenge from developers to cities on their reverse setbacks. So even, and by the way, when it comes to reverse setbacks, the difference as far as the opportunities for new drilling, that doesn't apply so equivalently across the board when we're comparing Denton to Flower Mound. So that's what I would put on the table. I'm curious if anybody else, you know, feels the same. So I want to make sure I understand, because I know when I watched this presentation before, when I was absent, I went back and rewatched it. You had advocated for a 1500 foot setback, which that's okay. But I hear something different. You're saying you want the city to adopt the Flower Mound gas well ordinance. I thought I heard you say you want to see Denton accept the Flower Mound gas well ordinance. Are you just talking about the 50? I'm sorry, there are setbacks and reverse setbacks, primarily. Okay, so just that component. You're not saying, hey, let's throw ours out and accept the Flower Mound oil and gas well ordinance. You're saying I want a 1500 foot setback? Yeah. Okay, all right. Okay. And reverse setbacks. Yes, okay. Council Member Meltzer. I think there are sort of different things we can do, short term, medium term, long term. I think long term, we ought to, and I said long term, ought to be able to end up at a place where it's the same number. You know, the fact that there are different numbers for setback and reverse setback is kind of an embarrassment. I mean, it just proves that it's really not based on protecting safety and health. It proves that it's based on differing political influences depending on, you know, whose ox is being gored. So I think, you know, long term, we ought to get there. I think short term, I think it's very defensible to, based on what we've heard today, to apply the, to have a foundation using the Fort Worth study to increase the, reverse it back to 600. It's, you know, that's, it's got some science to it, and we really, you know, ought to be ultimately based on science. It shouldn't be a political decision. Medium term, I don't see any downside to issuing an RFP, especially taking into account the fact that academic institutions can go after grant funding as well. Just the fact that it's, you know, that we estimate it might be $2 million doesn't mean that we would necessarily be writing a check for $2 million. It might be that there's some palatable amount of seed money that we would put in and see what comes back. Maybe, maybe nothing, but maybe there's a lot of interest in the academic world in funding this sort of thing. You know, so that's kind of a stair-step way to get to a solution ultimately that's defensible, because surely it'll be challenged, and I think we should be prepared to be challenged by being on a solid foundation. Okay. Mayor Pro Tem, I'm sorry, Mayor Pro Tem, sorry. Yeah, no worries. I apologize. I'm trying to be brief. I, too, appreciate the presentation and very insightful. Really, where I hang -- I'm all in. I'm happy to support the study. I'm happy to support increasing setbacks, but here's what I'm not happy with. I'm not happy with the current performance of not enforcing the rules that we have. So I have zero hope that at this -- based on past performance, that we would then get to a point to all of a sudden we're going to enforce those new regulations. So if we get to a conversation where this body says -- and I've said this before -- if we can get to an agreement that, hey, we're going to enforce the book, the laws that are on the books, the ordinances on the books, and then we're going to seek to change those. But I don't know why I could support -- I can't get behind spending $2 million, $1 million, whatever the number is, for not. If only to have someone sit there and say, I don't like that number, I don't like those results that came back, then I think that we've done ourselves no good. And so that's really where I pivot. We have ordinances on the books. If a project meets that ordinance, this council has said we're not going to -- individually -- and that's each council member's burden to bear, and that's their right, and I absolutely get it. But I'm exercising my right not to spend $1 million to get to the same answer. And so that's what I'm looking forward to. I'm looking forward to demonstrative changes that say we are willing to stand by whatever science is, because there's science that supports where we are now, and we take issue with that. And someone to say that there isn't science to support that, I think there's two sides to every coin. And I absolutely want to get there with your councilman's melter, but the problem is, everyone that would hear the case is elected. So I get it that it shouldn't be an elected issue, but every judge is elected, all the way up to the state Supreme Court. And there's nothing I've heard today that would kick us out of the Supreme Court and the federal court to get us somewhere where judges are appointed. So every path along this way that's going to decide this matter is an elected official. And so I get it that that's not ideal, but I also would like to dunk and get rid of gravity, but I can't do that either. And so I just think it's important to deal with the facts at hand. And so that's the challenge. We can't get out of this vicious cycle of elected officials, and we can't achieve -- there's just not a path forward for it that exists right now. So that's the challenge, and so that's what I'm listening and watching for. I'm all in. I just need to see us show a commitment to say we don't like these ordinances. They're on the books. We're going to change them, but we're going to allow them until we can get them changed. Councilmember Davis. So I don't agree with the assertion that our motivations are political when we talk about setting a setback in any particular place. I think from a public health perspective, none of us are doctors, none of us are epidemiologists. I think we can agree with the general premise that being close to a gas well represents some level of health risk, and the further you get away from it, the lower that risk is. And what degree of risk you face living there, going to school there, any of those kind of things, I think that's kind of -- depending on that's kind of when we get into -- it varies by formation, what are the hydrocarbons that are being released, et cetera, et cetera. If we accept as a general premise two things, that the further you get from a gas well, the better off you probably are health-wise, and also the more regulation we put on, for instance, reverse setbacks, the greater our legal risk. I don't think this is an issue of politics and who's willing to do what politically. I think it's an issue of managing our legal risk and counterbalancing that with the health safety, general welfare. It's just like the old argument that you can make a car that would survive any wreck, but who's going to be able to afford it? So when I look at this issue, I look at the three legal hurdles that we talked about. When we look at the reverse taking, the reverse condemnation, excuse me, the takings argument, I'm comfortable somewhere around 500 feet with that. I think that's an acceptable risk because not every single owner of surface rights is going to take us to court. Not every single well that has -- that that would impact hasn't already been developed. Quite a few of them have already been developed up to that point. I think there's room for conversation there. I think there's room for acceptable risk at about 500 feet. However, then you get into the vested rights argument, and I think there's substantial risk there. I think we know for a fact, to almost a legal certainty, that we lose those fights in court. So if someone has begun a project with the city, if they've filed for something already with the city on a piece of land, and that right is vested in their right to build right up to the wellhead in some cases, then that I want to know more about before I'm willing to go further than what we've got already on the books. That's the data we don't have is what is our real risk and exposure with some of these vested rights. And we're just kind of getting -- I know the legal staff and the city staff has been working to find some of those plats. We're finding them more -- easier to find them when a wellhead is capped and when a well is abandoned. But to me, that's the legal argument we know we lose every single time. So we need to figure out what our exposure is there before we take big steps with our reverse setbacks. But I'm willing to take some of those steps with reverse setbacks when we know what our exposure is. I'm going to check over here first. Yeah. Any comment over here? Councilmember Briggs, Councilmember Ryan? I do have one question on the Fort Worth study. I know I read it someplace, but you talked early on about equipment to wall, pad site to wall, wellhead to wall. Which was it, 600 foot, their pad site? No, they actually do wellhead measurement. Okay. So it's wellhead to wall for Fort Worth. Okay. And I think that that's something as we're talking about what our setbacks or reverse setbacks are, we need to first determine what are we going to set back from? Because our 250 is actually probably more around 400 to 450 by the time you take into account the distance to the edge of the pad and the distance from the edge of the lot to the building, you know, those types of things. It is definitely going to depend on the circumstances. It's going to be, you know, obviously more than 250 feet from wellhead to wall. But, you know, location of the home, you know, where the wellhead is located on the pad site, it's going to be variable. Especially if you get into a planted subdivision where you're measuring it to the lot line of the subdivision. It's very rare for someone to build their home right up to the, you know, the edge of the lot line, especially if they've got, you know, structure about behind them. And so you're probably going to gain some space there. But how much that is, I don't know. It's going to depend on the circumstances. Yeah, and I guess that's what my point is, is that because we're measuring in one way when you try and compare our 250 to a 600, it's not really 350 foot difference. It's much less than that. And people are so stuck on the fact that we're using a 250 number. And, you know, somebody else at 600 is actually using it for the wellhead that, to me, that's a bigger question mark of what part of that pad do we want to protect or do we want to continue to protect from the pad? Are we worried about just the wellhead or are we worried about the equipment, you know, in setting that up? Okay. Anybody else before I go back around the horn a second time and then I'll have some comments to say. Council member Melzer. I'm sorry if you like literally just said this, but I just may not have gotten it. So in the Fort Worth study, which my premise is we want to be scientifically defensible. And that's a study that is in our formation, et cetera. So in the Fort Worth study, was it from the wellhead or from the pad site? They were doing a -- my understanding, they were doing a 600-foot measurement from the wellhead. But you've got to -- I'm trying to think how to say this. It's a lot more complicated than that because they are using a model to determine concentrations. And so the model is showing them where the maximum concentrations are going to be, and that's where they're evaluating their impacts to public health. So if you're asking me if they measured in all cases on a 600-foot, you know, took out a tape measure and ran 600 feet from a wellhead, I think the answer to that is no. But did they model and measure based on the idea of assessing that 600-foot setback? The answer to that is yes. So that if we wanted -- if others brought the premise that we want to maximize the implications of that study, would -- is that what you would suggest would be to change our language to 600 feet from the wellhead? If that were the objective? Well, you know, at the end of the day, we've got to pick a measure, right? Yeah. I mean, I think that the 600-foot is defensible according to the study. The difficulty that I have on that is that that doesn't mean something less than 600 feet is not okay. Yeah, but it's a conservative position. Correct. And it's supported by the study. But, okay, I want to keep asking. I think you have answered it. And then the second point was -- the second thing I wanted to ask about on the vested rights conversation that Councilmember Davis came back to. Isn't it the case, Mr. City Attorney, that that sort of always applies, that people who want to develop land, they're always governed by the rules. You know, the rules that were applicable at the time that they, you know, that they made their application. So how would that really increase our risk? If I could say a little more before you answer. Isn't it the case that it would just maybe reduce the amount of change we could have, but where would we encounter risk? The risk is that, as I explained in the presentation, is they will come out and say, we are vested. We're not subject to that. We've already been to court. And wouldn't we generally agree with that? Well, that's what I presented. I mean, this council or a future council may feel differently and want to test it. That is your decision if you wish to do that. And I can't tell you how a different judge is going to rule. But I mean, with zoning, right, people always are, you know, they're always subject to the zoning. Zoning regulations are typically an exception to the vested rights, except there's an exception to zoning regulations. There's a laundry list of items that are basically forbidden to touch as well, which are, you know, tree preservation, lot coverage, and there's a laundry list. So rezoning, as I mentioned earlier, rezoning is the probably the best mechanism done on a voluntary basis by the developer where they actually would lose vested rights protection. I'm just sort of making the point that it's not necessarily this big, you know, threatening pot of risk if we just accept the premise that we're regulating development that has not already begun. With respect to residential subdivisions, surface developers, I would agree with you on that, yes. Thanks. So I'm in favor of the public health study. It could be kind of the thing you listed, but it also could be more. And it was something that we were talking about during the gas pump conversation as well. Just overall, you know, air quality health effects of our of our residents in Denton. And it would be, you know, we just we need we need data. We need to know how healthy we are and how the gas wells affect the health of those that are around them. And in the conversations we had when the 250 was considered 50 feet was given within that pad so that we were told basically it's kind of more or less of 300 feet, which gets you to that fire code. But it wasn't ever really set when you said it was 400, it could be up to 400 feet. I'm just going by the conversations when we were talking about setting it to 50 because I was adamant. Like, why are we less than 300? And they're like, well, you know, sorry, it gets to be more around 300 feet when you talk about the room inside the in the plat. But we weren't ever told that was, you know, more than 50 feet. But I don't know. I might be able to shed a little bit of light on that. So on the 50 foot is not a bad distance used for inside the pad. It's not going to be consistent in all cases, but it's not a not a bad one to use. But then you've got to add on top of that if you're dealing with a residential subdivision that has platted lots that aren't built on yet. You're also measuring from the lot line of that of that platted lot. And so you're probably going to gain, you know, pick a number. What's a typical backyard? I don't know. It's going to depend on on the density of it, but you're probably picking up another 30 to 50 feet there. Something along those lines. Real quick. And then we I mean, I just know that our front yard and backyard setbacks are are pretty small these days. So I don't know. Sure. My my would be to go ahead and issue the RFP or Q or and just see what happens. We don't know how much it's going to cost until we get some information back. This conversation always fascinates me. Because what I hear is that these are sort of arbitrary distances. What I hear is that we need to have a distance that protects the public health and welfare. What I hear is the legal risks, I hear the political implications, I hear all this and I think probably outside of council member Briggs, at least on the council, we both have been here through almost this whole ordeal. I mean, when I got first elected was the hydraulic fracturing ban referendum and the like. So we've spent five years, four years talking about this on and off. So this is where I'm OK. I think we need to get to one setback. I think the scientific evidence proves that your information about doing air monitoring at the fence and that you had one issue. And I know we're not doing it once a week or once a day. But when you're talking about 240-something samples, that means in another year and a half we may have up to 500 samples. So I just find it interesting that while it seems that there's positioning on certain setbacks based upon a lot of different reasons, that if the public health and safety is really the primary issue, if it's really the primary issue for this council, even on an interim basis, to me it's like we have wasted four years because every time we have this discussion, people want to change the reverse setback, but they don't want to say, OK, like, for instance, I had my way. I'd say four to 600 feet, let's look at five to 600 feet. Let's bring all the setbacks together because it seems like based upon the study that they did, based upon certainly the information you shared as far as the air quality at the fence. And if you went out another 600 feet, whether it's from the wellhead or I mean, you know, you could we could find some way to do that. I'm like, wow, you know what? Everybody would be better off because what's not happening in this city? Nobody is utilizing the thousand foot setback because nobody's drilling. So the thousand foot setback is not applicable because nobody's really drilling close to a protected use. The wells are not coming to the protected uses. What is happening? Somebody take a guess. What's happening? I'll tell you what's happening. Residential subdivisions are building up to 250 feet to the pad site. That's what's happening. What's gotten lost in this whole discussion is the reality on the ground and what's really happening and the interests we're really trying to protect. And how do we get to protecting those interests in a better way? So while we sit here and we talk about we don't want to do this, we don't want to do that, we don't want to do this, people are building 900 permits so far I think this year for the City of Denton for residential permits. So people are building and they're able to go right up against the pad site. Now, in some cases where they're vested, that might be 100 feet. That might be 100. So let's make sure also we can only affect those gas well plats or those wells who have no plat associated with them and who have no plat note. Hold on just a moment. So I just find it interesting that when we talk about public safety, we're missing another opportunity to ask developers not to bring gas residences, residential units any closer. I mean, we're saying we're going to be locked up. So we're going to keep a 200 foot setback, reverse setback, because of all the various reasons why people don't want to negotiate that or compromise that, when that's the interest primarily that everybody's trying to protect. They're trying to protect how do we keep current development from coming right up on protected use development, coming up on gas wells. And I've never understood the argument of, well, we have industrial and warehouse, they can be within 100 feet. So that whole public safety issue goes out the window as far as I'm concerned or public health because, oh, well, they're only there 8 or 10 hours. So it doesn't matter. We can do it a little bit closer. So the rationale sometimes that we employ on our decision making in this regard is actually fighting against the interests that we're really trying to protect because this meeting will end today with no action. Maybe a health study, maybe. I don't even know if there's enough people. I'm not necessarily for a health study until we figure out how we do this whole setback issue because quite honestly, I think we have enough data to be able to come up and to hash out a setback that we believe based upon the data that's out there based upon our own data. So we're going to leave this room and we're going to say, well, we can't agree. You know, we can't agree. And what's going to happen? If someone sees a drill rig go up, please call me. Please call me. If the drill rig goes up, it's not for redrilling in a current existing well. If a new well goes up. Do we know when the last new well was drilled in this community? I don't know at the top of my head. It's been a while. It's been a while. It's been a long time. How many of you are driving around and seeing wood frame houses that are being framed going up against pad sites? I have 250 feet. So I'm okay with moving the reverse setback to protect the interest of those people that we're trying to protect of residential developers, residential owners or renters coming in. But right now, we're going to let another opportunity pass us by to protect that interest that seems to be the main interest that people are talking about. So I'm okay with a 500-foot setback, both reverse and regular, simply because I know that people aren't drilling wells and if we've got a reverse setback of 500 feet that we have created and decided on or whatever that number is, that means we think, okay, based upon the data we have, based upon the data that's been presented, that's okay. So it doesn't matter to me what we decide on. I just want people to understand when I call the next item and nothing has happened that people are still building within 250 feet of a pad site. So we're going to allow everybody -- I haven't said anything during this whole conversation, very little. So I want everybody to be very brief in their comments. I want to get through this, but we're going to give everybody an opportunity to speak that wants to speak. So Councilmember Riggs. So in my conversations before, I'm okay. If you want to go to 500 feet reverse, I will do that because it's better than 250 feet. I mean, I'm willing to do that right now. The difference is I'm not going to do the 500 equal because in the conversations before in the past, the reason why that was accepted to be more is because that would mean that a new well could go into an established neighborhood rather than the neighborhood moving into the well site. So that was the difference in why those were different and needed to be further away from a youth coming into a neighborhood who wasn't necessarily prepared for it or, you know, instead of somebody already building, knowing there was a well there. I remember that, sure. Right. So that's why I would continue to keep the 1,000 if we were to move the 500. Councilmember Armitage. So, so first of all, so there was the question on the table that led to this conversation or one of the things led to this conversation apart from our interest in gas wells and that was Councilmember Hudspeth was saying, okay, I want everybody to say put on the table what would be your ideal. When I put 1,500 both ways on the table, you know, I don't remember today making an ultimatum and saying and I'm going to, you know, and not an inch less, you know, that's my ideal. And I'm listening very carefully to what people are saying when they propose these numbers and I'm with Councilmember Briggs, you know, any, I mean 251 feet, I'd vote, you know, it was better than 250 feet. So, yes, so those are two very different questions. You know, you say this is my high bar, this is my ideal and then we have a discussion and compromise. So I don't want to predetermine that we're not going to come out of this discussion with anything. I am for raising the bar on our reverse setback to 500 and it sounds like we might possibly have four already on that and we don't even have to talk about setbacks today because that's fine as long as we can improve on those reverse setbacks and find something that we agree on. You know, I'm saying 500 is fine for me if it's both ways, because based upon Councilmember Briggs refreshing my recollection. That was primarily chosen as a, it wasn't so much, if I recall correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, there was some health implications but also it was, we don't want to, we don't want the people to be unexpectedly having a gas well being built next to them when they didn't know that a gas well was going to be built. So my purpose in saying I'm okay with a single setback, and I'll say 500 feet, is because for me, based upon what I've heard, based upon the data, based upon the studies that we've had, whether it's 500 or 600 given that issue because I think it's measured from the pad site now to, is it the property line or the corner of the structure? It depends on which setback you're talking about. If it's a, if it's a platted subdivision without a home, it's to the plot, to the, to the property line. If the home is already there, then it's to the, it's edge of pad to the wall. Okay, so you could make it, you could say, if we, I mean, we can devise anything we want. Sure. So you could say if the home is already there, you could still go from the pad site to the property line, even if it's currently existing. So when you say we might have four boats for 500 foot setback, no, that's, that's, I'm, I'm not distinguishing between reverse setback and regular setback. I'm saying if it's good enough for Fort Worth and we have some data and we've had a study and, and when I hear this data about the air monitoring that we've done and, and those kinds of things, I'm comfortable with that. So there's a caveat to my 500, because a setback is a setback. Whether we're calling a reverse setback or we're calling it whatever we call the other setback, the regular setback, they're both setbacks. And so that, that's where I am, Council Member Meltzer. I agree, as I said before, that in the, as I said before, I agree that in the long run there's no logic for ending up with two different numbers. But it's just more conservative to increase protections and take it a step at a time before you take a protection away. So I would strongly encourage you to consider taking a half a loaf today and, you know, we'll learn over time. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. Again. Right. I can get there. That would be, you know, we can vote on that today. Show progress. No problem. But the problem would be, well, I've said that. So I think I'll listen and see if there's traction for that. I'm absolutely, it would be great. I think your point's valid. There needs to be, we need to show results. We need to, you know, hey, we've, we've, we've done an analysis, you know, and here's the results of that and the time spent, you know, as you say, the number of years, even this year, the last year, you know, since I've been on council and it's been round and round. But I guess my question would be, do we have, Dr. Banks, do we have an analysis of, because here's my only problem with that scenario is using the property on north of, north of Windsor, that's not their property where the well is. It's in the corner. Right. And so do we have an understanding of how many properties are like that, that it's not their property, they don't have a well on their property, but their property is adversely, in theory, affected by this well, someone tucked into a corner right next to theirs. I don't think that we have an analysis that we could quantitatively make a statement on that, but I think that goes back to the, to the idea that was talked about earlier. In almost all cases, the mineral interest are separate from the surface interest in the city. And so I think what you're going to find is that in almost all cases, and again, I'll litmus test with Aaron on this, that you're going to find a mineral owner and surface owner being different people. So, technically speaking, using your example, your, your surface owner would be the one that would be impacted by the mineral owner being there in terms of the use of the property with an increase of the reverse setback or the, you know, the reverse setback in general. So, if it's an undeveloped property, so I think, I think that that's going to be a pretty common scenario in this city. I don't know Aaron, if you agree, but. Yep, that's, that's more or less correct. The only ones I'm aware of that are owned in the same corporate umbrella or the Hillwood. Right. Okay, and so I mean, so Mayor Watts, my, that's my concern is that kind of not my property and, but now I'm losing more. And so if there's, if there's a, but I think if we tie, so for example, if it's 500 across the board, an SUP process that where someone could come in and say, Hey, in this instance, I need you to reconsider because they took this thing right next to my property and I can't use it. Then, then, I think we can, we, I can support that today. Well, and I think city attorney was talking about that we might have to discuss various issues and all that so yeah, I wanted to get the council comments first before council member. So I agree with you mayor in an ideal world we would have identical setbacks for simplicity sake, for integrity of the argument, you'd have identical setbacks, but at the same time, what Dr. Banks just said, you're balancing different interests, the surface rights and the mineral rights and one. The thousand foot setback I think technologically the whole holders of the mineral rights have more options on how they cite wells and they have more play with, I'm okay with them at 1000 foot setback and keeping them at a higher setback. If that's what gets us to the ultimate goal and not making those setbacks match whereas your developers your surface right holders. They're not making any more land as council member Meltzer is fond of saying they're not making any more of it. You can't, you can only move around so much within your property. And then, Council member Hudson mayor pro tem excuse me, raised a good point with Trey's example earlier of 1000, excuse me 100 acre tract and you go out 1000 feet and you take out 72 acres of that. Well, there are not very many gas wells in the middle of a 100 acre track where all those 72 acres are carved out of that owners track. I think after the conversation today. I think we need to do two things. One, I think we have a consensus around the table for a 500 foot reverse setback. I think I can be okay with a 500 foot reverse setback, even keeping the 1000 foot in place without the caveat and the trade off. But I think we need to craft that very carefully. I think we have a consensus to move forward, but we also have to kind of consider where are we going to bump up against the vested rights. Where is that going to cause us some real pressure points. We don't want to find out about those for the first time. When we're in litigation, we want to know where those are. Before we take the leap, but I'm ready to take the leap when we know those things. The other thing we can do now to your point earlier about short term long term medium term is I think the direction this council ought to be to our staff that we are when we are negotiating agreements we are aggressive about a 500 foot preference that when we're negotiating overlays and zoning, we are aggressive about a 500 foot or preference for a 500 foot setback to your point, Mr. Mayor, if development is happening all around us. I think the direction this council ought to be a staff in all instances, wherever possible, we ought not be developing within 500 feet with a protected use. And if our, if our staff analysis for every public hearing includes how close are you to gas well. I'm fine with that I think that's a legitimate conversation to have. And then when those public hearings come to us we balance the rights, we balance the interests, and we make a decision based on based on those until we have a firm reverse setback a defensible 500 foot reverse setback in place. That's right. Can we get there a little faster if we just sort of stipulate that where there are vested rights, you know that this doesn't apply. I'm fine with that carve out. I'm not sure if that gets us if it's quite that simple. I'll defer to the city attorney on that. I'm fine with whatever carve out gets us past that kind of silver bullet vested rights argument that the surface rights holders might have. Okay, Councilmember, right. One last question, how big are how big is a gas pad. Exactly so when we start talking about how we're going so much from the pad site. I mean I'm fine with matching up distances but it should be from, from the wells, and not from the pad site because you could end up with a. Two acre pad that's 300 foot by 300 foot five acre is about 465 feet squared. So, you know, you're taking out more based on the size of the pad. And what we're actually seeing here lately is the developers the land developers are actually buying out the gas interest, or the, the pad site interest, because with directional drilling they can now go five miles away and in drill and still get their gas again later but the prices are down they'd rather just keep it underground right now anyhow but since it's already drilled and it's already coming up they're making use of it but if they had their choice I bet a lot of them would like to just turn the valve off and wait. You know, until the prices come back up. So what I'm understanding is that it seems like. And I'm going to go around and if I'm incorrect and you let me know that the people that are for maintaining the thousand foot setback is Councilmember Briggs, Councilmember armature, Councilmember Meltzer and Councilmember Davis, is that correct. And so, are those council members that I just named also wanting to give staff direction, because we can't do, I mean we're going to give direction on your, your ascension or your agreement was contingent upon several important things so it's not so much. We can do this right as an ordinance, we got data that we've got to pull we've got variance issues that we've got to try to collect but in principle, the four of you that I named is a 500 reverse setback that correct. This whole discussion of, you know, that john reintroduced had site well so well I'm happy with 500 foot base without changing anything else about the definition of the number. We can come back with some data, because this is very data intensive because I think what would be helpful is to number one understand how that impacts the current situation with the measurement that we have, what would it be if we had a different measurement, but I really do want to get, and I know we've got this somewhere. We've got an inventory of all the gas well pad sites are all the gas wells, and to say okay, which, what is available to be impacted by this ordinance. In other words, all that land we saw that map we saw the 500 foot setback that is going to, you know, this is this is the acres that you can develop in. Let's see that data on a sort of a bio well or gas well plat perspective. Okay. Any other questions or concerns. All right. Yes. On that data, because I think that's really important and the issues that Jesse brought up, will that come back to us before we get an ordinance or what is the, yes. Okay. It should come back contemporaneously with, I wouldn't say we, when we get the data back, and the various kinds of options, depending on circumstances where people, you know, because we're changing it that means some people may not be able to build. So we've got to build in something for those people or we will get, we will owe them something just by principle only, because I mean, come on, I mean, they have to sue us to do it, but if all of a sudden we're changing something that renders them their property almost valueless. So we need to have those kinds of discussions as well. Go ahead. Land in itself is more valuable right now than the stuff under it. And so, I mean, that's, that's what we want. We want to make sure that they have, they can develop on their land. But this is, this is going to be another full conversation once we get all the data back. Yeah, but we, we, we at least had some movement. I don't necessarily agree with the consensus, but that's okay. We had movement to where we're finally figuring out, you know, and so whatever unintended consequences we may experience. Those are the ones we're going to experience. And so we'll have to deal with them when they come, when they come forward. And as the data gets flushed out, we may have a different, because I still say we've got a hundred foot setback for industrial. And I'm going to tell you, I mean, this is, this is my whole thing. And you said Councilmember Davis in an ideal world that, you know, this and that, and they should be the same, but there's more technology. I really disagree with that because I think in an ideal world, if you're going to make an argument, I think in the real world, if you're going to make an argument and base a decision on some rationale, that that rationale needs to be consistent. And if, and I'm not advocating that we all of a sudden have a 500 foot setback around everybody and every piece of property. I'm just saying the rationale on how we have any of it different, just sort of defies my mind of approaching that someone who's only around something that some deem is harmful for only a short amount of time. Is it's okay as to somebody. So, so we may open up the whole thing up again, but I think we have direction in that regard. Well, just a reminder, we do still write in our ordinance about a variance. So the 1000 original setback could be drawn down to 500 feet. I think that's only they follow site gas well development site plan. Is that correct? No, there's several. Okay, we can get a summary of that. But I did have some some clarification. I wanted to get on the thousand foot that you all are referring to the thousand foot setback. Are you referring to the the actual setback that's for a new pad site comes in fresh out of town first time or the existing? I just wanted to make sure that it is the new pad site because currently that's a thousand feet and you want it to remain a thousand feet. Okay. I'd be curious to see a nose count on support for doing an RFI on or I think there is an argument to be made that for with studies good enough. No need to do anything further. But I'd be curious to see if what we would get back from an RFI and I don't know how many people also feel that way. I'm not in favor of it if we're going to do it. And then if it comes back at 500 or 600 feet in general that everybody's going to say no, we want to keep this one at 1000 feet. I mean, if it comes back and says something, I don't want to spend a bunch of money and then not follow my explicit reason for wanting it is to say go by that once you know once we have it, I still I mean, I think we've made progress today and I would like to keep this moving. So at this point, I'm not but that doesn't mean that you don't have four or five council members that are willing to do that. So so I'd like to know. Yes. Can't remember husband. What's the question. No, sure, of course. Yeah, would you support issuing an RFP for proposals for a study. I would just need to understand better, Mr. City Manager. What's the cost of that? What's what is the time energy effort to just send it out to put an RFI together. Yeah. Probably somewhere in the 25 to 40 hour range will will borrow heavily from Fort Worth to you know, but it's still going to be quite an effort in the RFI is just really a two step process really what you're gonna hear back or approaches and experience in RFI RFQ and RP was where you'd actually get the pricing. Got it. Yeah, no, babe. I mean, I'm not. Not willing to sacrifice 40 hours on a flyer. Yes. Okay. Councilmember Ryan Davis. I'd also like to see if we have consensus from my position that we have expressed I think consensus as a council that staff can work from for a strong preference for 500 foot setback. So when we have new projects, and when we have negotiations with for economic incentives or anything else. I'd like to know that we have a consensus of the council that staff can work from the premise of a 500 foot setback. This is this before the code goes into effect. Right, right in the, in the short term. I mean, I think to, to give staff direction to, to, to negotiate based upon. Well, I think that negotiation needs to come from the council. I mean if the county if the negotiations going to happen it needs to come from the council because I don't want to put staff in the position of negotiating for something that we don't even read that our current code is doesn't require it. I would, I would agree if you if you want to make that decision it counts me that's fine. We've already had enough issues with the development community in terms of our multiple criteria manuals and trying to understand where the rules of engagement are and the money they've spent so we can certainly let them know that you're heading down that path. We're happy to do that. But if that's something that you'd like to make happen. We really need an ordinance behind it. So, I don't hear a consensus for the RF. Yeah, yeah, I just say I think that's the right approach is just let him know this is in the works, may or may not pass but that's, I think, valid. Okay. Anything. Yes, Councilmember Armitage. I'm sorry I'm, I'm for the RFP I just I had nothing to add to what I said before. Okay, I still think we're at. Yeah, yeah, so. Okay. All right. Any other comments or questions. We're going to take a break about a five minute break or seven minute break we'll come back at 445. And we've got dinners here, dinners here and we've got a couple of sessions couple of budget items and if we don't get to the closed session before the 630 meeting we will come back after the meeting to go into closed session. Everybody back to this meeting of the Denton City Council at 440pm on Tuesday, July 16 2019. We're going to sort of skip around our remaining agenda items we are moving agenda item. 2D to, I guess next week. All right, and we're going to skip down to agenda item 2G to make sure we get this covered for bond committee hearing coming up this week as also so receive report whole discussion provide staff direction regarding visions to the special citizens advisory committee, establishing resolution. Good afternoon mayor and members of council my name is David gains finance director. We have this item the number, a number of budget items so we'll try to get through these as fast as we can. We want to this item is it comes before you today with a change to the resolution establishing the bond advisory committee on your consent agenda for this evening. And so we'll go through what that change entails and how we how we ended up at this point. I wanted to start off with just giving you all an update on where where we are with the committee and the process that we the progress that we've made thus far. So far we've had six meetings with the committee each Thursday, since May 30 with the exception of July 4 so it's definitely been a fast process but it's been a productive time with the committee. We have a meeting on this Thursday the 18th where we're going to go through another exercise of project prioritization with the committee talk, go through any project updates and answer some follow up question questions that the committee has. And we do have on the agenda for this Thursday the 18th, an option for the committee to make their ultimate recommendation to city council. So we'll see how the discussion goes with them up to that point on Thursday, if they, if they're comfortable making that recommendation, but we also have July 25 next Thursday as an additional meeting slot that we could have with the committee to get to that point. Ultimately, we'll bring the final report to council on August 1, along with the rest of our budget items during that workshop meeting. So, what we're really prompted us to come to council today and for the committee to ask us to come to council was a change in our project cost estimates for the both the police renovation and police station police substation projects, we just got these new numbers. We're really on on getting revisions and making sure that all decisions were made fully transparently with the updated cost. So a little just stepping back on on the how we came to the cost that we that we had in the program when we presented in the council and what we had presented to the committee. After having a new estimator come in and look at our costs for both the renovation and substation projects we already have had estimates, initially preliminary from preliminary from city staff, an estimate from our project architect and then the architect also brought in an estimating firm to look at their original project cost estimates. Just for due diligence we also decided to bring in a fourth set of eyes essentially another firm to come in and do an estimate of our numbers obviously it's been a number of months since those since the prior estimates, but also a different philosophy and how they looked at the estimates this is a firm that comes well regarded they worked with Louisville quite a bit they're currently working with Richardson on that on a police station and they work throughout the country on police station so we put a lot of stock in there in their opinion and feel comfortable to the point that we want to put these numbers forward to the council and to the committee. So ultimately you can see here that their estimates for both are for the renovation project is $11.8 million over our original cost estimate, so that that brings the total cost including funds that we've already dedicated to the project from $28.1 million to $40 million. And on the substation project, their estimates have increased those costs from $11.4 million to $21 million. So ultimately that's a $21.4 million increase in the police in those public safety projects which has a big impact. So that, that does have a big impact that's really significant. And so, you may have explained this a little bit so what, what is the difference and how did we, how did we find out the difference and we finally engaged a firm and what did we. I mean did we put in an RFP for that. How did we get that firm and how much did we pay them to tell us we're 21 million. The only thing about the firm out doing the due diligence to look at all the other places they've worked and brought them in to have a one on one meeting so that was what brought what prompted us to bring them in from a staff perspective, as far as the I can get to I'll get to the items on what they're saying increase. I don't have the dollar amount on me, you know Mario can address the contract amount. If you all remember, Mario can as our deputy city manager, if you all remember, I believe was the last meeting before Council went on their hiatus we had Chris, Chris squadra, come and present to you all about the, the, the various procurement methods that we could use. So it was his firm, a P performance value there the group that that we've engaged with to help us with these cost estimations and so the contract that we have with them is approximately $47,000. And the decision to kind of drive that was just my concern that we not get into a situation with the bond committee and with Council where we go out we asked for dollars and that we just haven't anticipated the forward cost of inflation we wanted that number looked at again, and I think what you're going to hear from David, and I'll probably just say it for you is that generally the the construction estimates on the, the two projects were within about four or $5 million. Why their experience was important to us is they're just closing up some public safety facility work in Louisville and an $80 million police headquarters in Richardson so they've got the most recent information on what the subs are charging, that sort of thing. And they really felt like the, the three year cost of inflation and contingency was was vastly low for what they're seeing in the industry right now. I mean we're hoping to mitigate this somewhat by doing one contract to handle both the substation and the renovation project but what they're seeing right now is the copies. These folks as Chris explained you during the work session they're just kind of naming their prices on their subs are going out and rebidding try to get the cost and check that made us very nervous so we asked them to take another look at both these projects to be sure that we weren't in a situation like we kind of do last year, we came in and asked you for another $35 million to make the road program whole. And so this is where we are but that is about $10 of the $16 million in cost. In addition the substation and the PD they've got some hardened security for the emergency operations center which had been a little bit undervalued as well. So that makes up most of the difference in the numbers that you're seeing. It's a three year time frame. David's also been working with staff trying to contain those costs as much as he can by trying to put a financing plan in place. If this were to pass these would be two of the first projects right out of the chute so we can manage that inflation number to the extent possible but this is what they're telling us is a safe number to come in on budget. So just state the obvious for the public watching, you know, yeah, that is a huge difference since it's, it's, it's a lot of sticker shock and, but it, it is what it is, you know, so, but I was wondering. Well first kind of a question about process, you know, because I don't want to, like, ask a, ask a question that would seem to be overstepping the bond committee in some way, you know, because it's the balls really, the balls in their court now and they're sending the ball back to us on this one issue. So, yeah, the reason for that is in the language of the resolution establishing the committee. There's specifically language in there that they will not consider a program that exceeds $210 million. So to even have, let them consider the full cost of all projects that were recommended, we need to change that language to go up to $235 million just to give them the option if council chooses to do that. So, so any kind of specific questions that we have about, say, you know, is there any like wiggle room on materials to bring the cost down, should those kinds of questions wait till, since that's not on the table today, and since that's, since this is ultimately going to come back to us anyway, should we wait for those kind of questions until that comes back to us? Yeah, and you're talking about specifically these two projects? Not really just anything, you know, just anything, but yeah, sure. Yeah, I think that with all the road projects, we're in a very different situation. Todd has been very conservative in terms of, and worked with David very carefully in terms of when the tranches would be issued, money to get these projects done, so we feel pretty confident with our inflation and contingency numbers there, but obviously until we get bids in, we're not going to know for sure where the market is at that point in time. It's such a hot construction market out here that they're doing their best to estimate those inflation numbers. With the two vertical construction, and this would also include the fire station project as well, you know, we're doing what we can to try to pair them together, one builder, same subs, trying to get the projects out the door quicker, that could take some of this money down. The problem is when we get into a bond election, the props are locked in, so you've got to use public safety dollars on public safety projects, and you've got to use road dollars on road projects, so that's the issue. Is there an opportunity to refine these numbers? Yes, but I think our experts are going to tell us right now based that it's going to mean altering the scope of the projects, downsizing both of the projects in order to get that done, because they're basing their professional opinion on what they're actually seeing the submarket do right now, and I'm talking about the trades. And can I ask a follow up question? Was the idea for the shooting range that it be on the same property as either the station or the substation, or that it, because I guess it doesn't include the cost for land, that's something I figured would come out. The idea, right now, we've actually got an expert working with Chief Dixon and our staff on that as well, but the idea would be either a stand alone firing range, which ideally would be located next to the substation, since we own the property out there. They do feel that the $5 million to $6 million number is good right now, depending if it can get built quick enough, but yeah, it would anticipate us not having to acquire additional property. The other option that we're looking at is, you know, possibly doing a public-private partnership. Chief's got some concerns with that, just in terms of having to cordon off and section off the public space and control that space, but we're taking a look at both those options right now. Thanks. Council Member Davis, did you have a question? Yeah, and then we'll go to Council Member Meltzer. My question originally was to ask, David, just flip to this slide for me, honestly, this says it all. Each of these projects individually will come back to Council. The bond proposition will come back to Council. The committee is asking us for some extra wiggle room, and I think this illustrates the value of what we had the presentation on a few weeks back on CMAR, the construction management at risk for big vertical projects. It just kind of demonstrates it's not really in our wheelhouse to estimate these kind of very specific vertical projects that we have to have the outside help from folks who have the real numbers. I'm comfortable with it now, not that David would not give a riveting presentation from this point forward, but I understand the need. I think our backup materials explain the need very well, and we get to review it again when it comes back. Council Member Meltzer. I have a kind of naive question. I don't really understand what the output of the committee is supposed to be if the total, this was true before this request, too. If the total is that they're being steered toward or capped at equals the project list, then they can just say, yeah, all these things are good. How does that help us? Well, actually, the projects, I'd change your question, your statement a little bit. Really the philosophy behind it was these are staff's obvious first set of recommendations. It gave them something to sort of shoot at, refine. I think there's going to be some changes to some of these projects based on the conversations we're hearing. For instance, right out of the gate, we were talking about potentially doubling the amount of road work, which is going to end up getting done. We actually took their recommendations very seriously and walked them through up to the $70 million number. But there is an ongoing debate right now, not only with the public safety, but whether or not to include McKinney from Woodrow to the Loop 288. I guess out of some concern that we may not be able to make a strong enough argument to obtain federal and state funding fast enough. So that debate's ongoing and there may be some trade-offs. But I don't think that it necessarily means they're going to exceed the $210 million number. They just want to know if they can even have the conversation. But I think it's been helpful to give them some parameters sort of looking at things, because most of it they've agreed with. Some of it they say, hey, we've got some different thoughts, and it's been pretty healthy, given our constrained timeline, to give them things to really focus on. If I can just look for a little more guidance, and I know you've been part of all of the discussions, will they come back with prioritization? I understand they're having good conversations trying to kind of digest this all. But if they're not constrained in some way, how would they come back with any guidance for us? Well, we've prioritized both of these areas that you see under the July 11th. I guess David's got it neatly done. But these are the prioritizations that we've given them. I think what they're looking at doing is where do we draw the bright line now, because they really feel strongly about the public safety projects being completed. We haven't talked a lot about the fire range, but they feel strongly about that, and they're wanting to know where to draw the line. I think the other thing is, and the reason they wanted to have that wiggle room is if they decide to recommend to you that perhaps a couple of these projects get reduced and McKinney gets put in there for your deliberation. Do they have the ability to make that recommendation to you? Because the public safety facilities and the first three or four lists there, the Hickory Creek mine array, the rehab, sidewalks, I think they're a pretty significant majority that are there. They just want to know where you are and can they even talk about some of these other projects. They are probably going to come back with some changes to this list. I would add one more. I think they're really taking a hard look and understand the context both from the expense and the revenue side. So as we talk through the scenarios and we come back and we say, okay, here's what it would be at 210, 235, 180. Here's the projects you could do, but also here's the tax rate impact of all those considerations. What are they comfortable with? What do they think they'd be comfortable with going forward? So I think all that is rolled up in the conversation that they're having. I'll get my input then. As long as they're also understanding, not just tax rate impact, which I think confuses most people because they hear things like it's a penny. Nobody will pay a penny more. It's not a penny. As long as they hear the tax bill impact of each of their decisions, I'm happy with them talking about whatever they want. And ultimately, it's up to the voters. Also, every financial presentation we've done, we've shown the tax bill impact with all the different decisions. So I'm with Councilmember Davis. I'm fine with cutting the presentation. Just because it is, I mean, it's a pretty succinct question. But before I do that, I do have two comments. One, I'd like to, as we get closer to that conversation and depending on the vote tonight, I'd like to ask Mr. City Manager if we could put an asterisk. Again, obviously, we've got to get there. But if we do get there, all things being even, I think Ryan Road would have a priority to me just because of the growth and what's going on and that sort of thing. So just your analysis as we get further down the road on that. But then also, I'd like to open a door for you, Mr. City Manager, also to speak. There was some misinformation put out about streets, location, repairs. And then there's some new information came from staff to kind of fix that. But no one ever reads those retractions. And so I think it's just important for you to have the opportunity to speak to that misinformation, correct whatever was disseminated incorrectly in this format so that hopefully it, too, gains traction and we can get correct information out. That's most important. Yeah, I think there was a misunderstanding as to whether or not there were projects in the southeast Denton area that were going to actually get rebuilt. I think there had been a general concern that in the past bond issues maybe not enough had been spread down in that area. We had, unfortunately, a couple of folks that had missed a meeting, at least one meeting, when we had discussed this. In both last two presentations in June, we're very clear about the fact that the sedentary was going to be receiving about $12 million of the $70 million, about 14 miles of street reconstruction resurfacing. And for whatever reason, that bypassed a couple members of the committee. And they got pretty vocal about it. And as soon as their comments were made, David pulled up the slide showing them that this map has basically been talked about the last two meetings. And then we moved on. But there's no question that those roads down there need to be redone. Todd took them through a number of different ways, as he would with you as well, just in terms of how the streets around the city could be reconstructed, how we make the most of our dollars, how we attack that OCI rating, which is an issue. And I think that they may have just assumed that some of the other approaches we were taking would have left Southeast Det now. But he's been very clear in every presentation that that is going to be an area we're focusing on. So we were able to correct the record after that news piece went out last week that was not accurate. Right. Thank you. >> Yeah, so I'll say I'm for the, letting them have the conversation about going up to the $238 million. It's a good conversation to have, and it will come back to us anyway. And we get to decide whether we disagree or not. I'll say, you know, since Councilmember Hatsbeth brought it up, and also since the, you know, two people you mentioned, two people who I nominated who both live in Southeast Denton, you know, because they had communicated to me, you know, their concern. And obviously, I can't speak for them, but I do know that, you know, for them, it was really just a feeling of wanting to see all the detail and making sure that this wasn't going to be just a patch up. And, you know, I mean, we're talking about, you know, it's that kind of, I'll believe it when I see it all fleshed out in detail. But I certainly wasn't hearing, they're not, you know, doing anything. It was just, when are we going to hear, when are we going to, and they got to hear at the last, you know, meeting. There was a great explanation of every street and what level of repair at every street, and what the price point, you know, for the streets, and how much would be, you know, kind of water sewage infrastructure. So anyway, that's what I was hearing from my end. So, but also, you know, we've seen the price, not the, the amount for the street rehab program. When it first came to us, I believe it was like 10 million, and then, you know, it's going up to 35, and then 70. So we've seen an evolution of this, which is what happens when you get a committee, you know. And so, and these areas are, you know, Southeast Denton was one of the neighborhoods that from the beginning, it should be no surprise to anyone living in Denton that, you know, there's clusters of, you know, when you do the, what's called OCI, the assessment of the failing roads, there are clusters, OCI, you know, clusters in one of the neighborhoods where there were clusters. So anyway, so that's that. And I'll just say, you know, that I look forward to seeing and hope to see for the other clusters of the neighborhoods, the neighborhoods with those OCI clusters that, you know, staff and the bond committee has been talking about, you know, going in, doing that combined neighborhood OCI approach. I would hope to see kind of a similar, you know, slide, you know, kind of presentation either to the bond committee or in a backup somewhere, because I found that very helpful just as far as informing the public. And then, and finally, I'll say, you know, because there's this new legislation that requires, this is in response to Council Member Meltzer talking about taxes, you know, the new legislation requires that we make public a lot of additional information about the impacts of a bond package. And so I think it's kind of nice that this will all be coming out. We'll get to see all of that. So I don't know if I have an issue with the expanded authority. I think, though, I'm sure that the bond committee understands that when you look at the first two projects on that list for road projects, proposition two roadways, those are contingent upon getting $280 million or $270 million of additional funding from somewhere. Text dot or whoever's providing that federal funding. And I don't know if that's all I think. I don't think that's all been solidified. The Bonnie Bray may because I think that's for the school district. But I don't know how solid all that is. So just to say, don't mind going up. But I just would hate to see us, you know, put a lot of money in the bond program. For a project that we haven't got some really solid foundation on where we can do this. But we're going to need four times, five times what we're allocating in funding somewhere else to do it, because then we're going to have to come back and reallocate that if we don't. So and I don't need an update on that. I just throw that out there just as an observation. We'll have it. We'll try to have some some language in there that if the money isn't if one of the grants filter is something that council would either have the option of not issuing the data or putting it somewhere else. But Todd's making pretty good progress. All right. Any other questions on this? So the direction is to move forward with the resolution. Is that my understanding? I'm not seeing any. Okay. All right. That's that's my understanding. All right. So we're going to go back now to agenda item. Let's see. I believe it's going to be e, agenda item e, three e. Is that what we're doing? Before they depart. Receive a report, hold discussion, give staff direction regarding the general fund preliminary 2019-20. Now, is this this one doesn't have sub components of budget presentations? That's the next one, right? Yeah. Or does this one have sub this is just just strictly general fund. Okay. Another riveting presentation. Yes. I think we can get through this one fairly quickly. This this this item is really just a follow up from our June 18th meeting to touch on a few items outside of the presentation. We also have had a memo attached that answered questions that came up on June 18th, the general fund presentation, but also questions that have come up throughout the department presentations. That's something that we do as we go through the budget process, try to have those memos to make sure that we're answering all of your questions. We can definitely address any follow ups to those, but I'll try to just focus on the presentation for now. So just to frame frame where we are right now, obviously, gearing up for August 1st, our budget workshop will present the proposed budget. The biggest date that we have to get to that point is next Friday on July 26th. Six is when we get our certified values. I think that's more important than in previous years. This year was the way that those values have fluctuated throughout the process, which I'll touch on a little bit as we go through the presentation. But until we get those final numbers next Friday, we don't really have certainty and what our revenues are going to be. And from that point forward, all of all of the dates that will hit over August and September. So on our assessed value, just a quick update, really just on the property tax is the only thing different here and a slight change to our sales tax projection. In total total AV increase, we're projecting 8% right now. Last time we came to you in June, that number was closer to 9%. But in total AV right now, just projecting 8%, trying to guess where it's going to end up next Friday. So on the top line here, just showing our 7.3% in the freeze adjusted taxable value. I think as we move forward and have budget conversations as we're in our second year of the tax freeze, this number really is more important as we project our revenues because that's really what fluctuates up and down. So trying to get some more of the focus on that freeze adjusted taxable value that takes out all of the frozen values. That estimate was based on last Friday's report, which is the 15th of 16 total reports. They skipped this week as they gear up for the final one next Friday. So we're losing about 0.7%. Not losing, but if we didn't, if the freeze wasn't in place, it'd be 8%. With it in place, it's 7.3%. Correct. Yeah. And later on, I have some kind of putting numbers to that and what that drop would be. The only change, other changes, just for projection purposes, we're right now in the forecast at 3.5% for sales tax. That could change up to August 1st. Just trying to, it was 4% last time we were here. We're still in line to hit our re-estimate for sales tax, but that number is really driven by seeing reports from the state in total, seeing all entities over the past month. It wasn't as high as it had been, so just trying to be more conservative with that sales tax projection. Here's an updated, again, preliminary picture of a pro forma of our general fund. You can see right now we're still projecting a fund balance net of about 1.1 to 1.2 million, and that could obviously change by next Friday. But that is important context as we start talking through the supplementals, which we'll touch on again. No changes at a high level. Is this a, this is, okay, this doesn't have any supplementals, because I was watching the fund balance go up and I'm like, okay. Right. Okay. Right. And this is just at the effective tax rate on the property tax. Yep. So I'll go on unless there's any questions on this. Seeing none. This is again just to re-emphasize how we're looking at supplemental packages this year and you have the supplemental packages again with this item. If you have any comments on what we have so far and how we have them kind of tiered in these rankings. And just to emphasize, so our tier one of our supplementals is really meant to essentially eat up that fund balance that we have going into the year, our revenues over our expenditures. So we can essentially go in saying we can fund tier one with the effective tax rate. And then each tier as we go forward is at 1.1 to 1.2 million dollars, which really ties to how much an additional cent in property tax would be in the general fund. So as we go forward, if we want to get that tier two in there, it's one cent over the effective tax rate. Tier three would be two cents over the effective tax rate. Here's a breakout and a breakout of how we've done the tiers from a staff perspective. Really the whole top tier is based on council initiatives from some of the homeless initiatives to the pest management are the big ones in there, along with a couple others. And then tier two is essentially focused on public safety with a few other small departments, but some extra police officers, some dollars for our meet and confer agreements with police and fire. So really, I think at this point, really looking at the first two tiers for sure, moving forward with and having those conversations on the other tiers. And all this detail broken by tiers in your backup as well. Here's just showing that on an average tax bill, essentially right now with what we're estimating the average taxable value will be that you can see that increase up to the $250,000 number. Average tax bill of $1,506 and then essentially just a $25 increase for each additional cent that we add to the tax rate. And you can see the hit just again showing the history as we've gone forward, you know, something that we just as we look back, you can really just see that emphasis that we've placed on the effective tax rate, or at least having that be our benchmark as we start the discussions over the past three years, three or four years compared to previous decisions, which are really focused on the total tax rate. So I think that's been the change of philosophy and why we've structured our supplementals in that manner. Council Member Melser. I just want to make a comment. You can see why people get cynical if they hear from elected officials, we haven't raised your tax rates, we're lowering your tax rates, and you just go back a few years and you're up 50% of the actual taxes you're paying. So I just, you know, I'm just really pleased to see the transparency and happy to talk about, you know, funding what we insist on funding, but with transparency. So, I think the biggest follow up item, unless there's any questions on the supplementals, the largest follow up item that we had from the June 18th meeting was the exemption options, the exemption discussion that we had where we showed our current exemptions and the values associated with those. So want to want to talk through what our current exemptions are and then what our options are at this point, at this point in time. So obviously our homestead exemption is that is that point 5% which essentially comes out to about in the minimum which is $5,000 which is essentially what, what all residents that have the homestead exemption get, unless they have a home over a million dollars. So we also have the 65 and over exemption which is our largest exemption. And then the disabled persons exemption which was is really in conjunction with that 65 and over exemption you can see the $50,000 associated with both of those. Here we've just broken out some history on on the exemptions you can see how they've changed over the past few years. Right now we're guessing our estimate is we'll have about 20,000 number of exemptions for the homestead. And then you can see on the over 65 freeze, where we've estimated the tax revenue that's been lost by the freeze, essentially, if we if they weren't frozen and they were at their taxable value value before the freeze versus what their taxable value is after the freeze. About $700,000 last year that was essentially lost revenue for that purpose. And then this year we're seeing that number climb, not, not jumping a large amount, but up to that million dollars. I think what that shows is a lot of a lot of people just got on board right away wasn't a gradual kind of phased in approach I think when a few years ago when we first thought about this we thought it might have been a little more gradual, but it really just kind of all happened up up front. So, first question is, if you stay at the 7.3%, maybe. What would that make the effective tax rate. It's 60.01 is right at 60 cents and so when we looked at it last time it was 59 and a half cents now we're at 60 cents because we've also had kind of our supplements come in from last year they've been higher and as that gets lower on our AV, it makes the effective tax rate higher essentially. So on this. Correcting me thinking that okay so if there was no free or there's no franchise, there was no legislation about franchise $650,000 that's $1.7 million. So that would mean that if we had that additional revenue, it would drive the tax rate down, but since we have those sort of hits or lost revenue, then everybody collectively, because the tax rate has to go up to get to the same amount of taxes that you would have been paid. Correct, especially as we look at the effective tax rate, because that's taken out and so it just, it just shifts the burden to some degree. Can you speak a little about the, you know, we've kind of, we've been over this before. About how raising the homestead exemption, you know, to 10% and what the effect that would have on, you know, shift the whole balance and on the effective tax rate. Sure I have a slide just that we kind of looking for one and yeah, we just developed this one after. You know we see that in that increasing and when I go back and have the comparison but at 5% we would see about a $1.5 million hit and about loss in revenue and about $3.2 million loss in revenue at 10%. And those are those numbers are very similar to what we showed in December when we kind of went through it with last year's numbers from a, from a perspective of a resident, that'd be about the $1,495 that they would pay. And then we can compare that to about $45 more that they're, that they're paying now. So I can shift back and forth between those, have those just in case that question came up. The effect on the effective tax rate, kind of how that gets, those two things get factored together. It kind of goes back to, so when you do the effective tax rate, you take out exemptions. So if we wanted to stay at the effective tax rate, it would increase, you know, the tax bill on those who don't have the exemption to make up for it. Thanks. Yeah, it's on. So, yeah, okay. And then just wanted to touch on as we showed last time the over 65, the over $65, $50,000 exemption that we already have, and then the disabled person's exemption which is tied to that. Obviously that's our largest amount right now in total, total impact on tax revenue received. And that's in addition to the tax freeze. Correct. I mean this is, this is a separate exemption than the tax freeze. Am I correct in that? It is, and I think I can get to kind of put that in context here in just one more slide. Go ahead, Council Member Briggs, you had a question? Yeah, on that, on that loss, was it $2 million and then the loss of the freeze was the one, is that one included in the two we just saw or is that together? So like with the, with the 50% and then the freeze, so are we looking at $3 million loss just for like the. So I think, I think the way you could think of it is yes, with some caveats of, so the freeze goes into effect on what you actually pay. So you are, those households already had the $50,000 exemption, so they got frozen at the $50,000 exemption. So then, so that's kind of the $2 million, right, and then any additional increase they would have had is negated as well and that's the other million. So it's a little more nuanced than that, but I think big picture, they work together in tandem. And then just kind of walking through, here's, here's the estimated tax on our, with our current, current setup with homestead exemptions. Most people get that $5,000 exemption and then what that does to their taxable value and then what their property tax bill would be at our current, what we're estimating for the effective rate right now. And then you can see if you have that over 65, you get the $5,000, the $50,000 exemption for over 65, which would then get, that would be your property taxes paid and then you'd be frozen at that if that was your first year in the property taxes. So it wouldn't then increase anymore. Council Member Ritchie, you have a comment? So the non-homestead, that would be say if you had a rental property and you were, you were renting it, you would pay the non-homesteaded exemption. Non-homestead or commercial. Right, okay. So that commercial, it's the same as that third line right there, right, basically. So it's only $30 and more, basically, without the, the $5,000 or a little estimate over. If you, just comparing it to a non-over 65, right, that's the, that's the difference, that's what the $5,000 makes up. Yeah. Right. Well, we hear a lot about, you know, well, taxes are going to go up, that means your rent is going to increase, you know, because I can't get a homestead, but then when you look at the numbers, you, the people who are paying the homestead really aren't paying, that much more, I mean, that much less than the ones without the homestead. So it's just really always good to see the numbers when you, you look at it here. Just to put a comparison here, in here for your reference of just what some other cities have done and are doing, and are doing. Obviously, every city is different when you look at their assessed value and the impact of any of these exemptions. We did want to just make sure we were transparent on where we are right now and what the decisions that we would make at this point moving forward when they would take, would take effect. Any decision we would make from this point moving forward before July 1st, 2020 would not have impact until our 2020-2021 budget. So decisions made now, since we're past the July 1st timeframe, would not impact the next budget year. And I also wanted to follow up, there was a question at the June 18th meeting of, if we decrease that exemption amount for the over 65, would it, how would it impact with the freeze? Because the frozen value is on the taxes paid, it essentially kind of, if we decrease that from 50 to another lower number, it wouldn't impact those frozen amounts because their property taxes paid are frozen. So it could have an impact moving forward, but for everybody who already has it, it wouldn't have that upfront impact. Yeah, it would be frozen, if you reduced it, it would be frozen at the tax level, property tax bill, with the lower exemption if there was one. Right. Yeah, yeah. So I can definitely answer any more questions on the exemptions and talk to any- Any other questions, comments? All right. Yeah. So when will the next report come out as far as our estimated AV? Next Friday, we get the final report. Oh, is that when it's certified? Yeah, certified on the 26 and then we'll be- With a supplemental, I mean, we always get a supplemental, I mean, there's always something left. So we also, we get supplementals for the prior year, just when we were still getting supplementals from last year. I'm sorry, it's 95% certified. Right, but it's certified and that's what we'll budget on, and that's what the rates are based on. So that'll be next Friday and then we'll be getting the proposed budget ready in just a couple days after that. What did it start out at before any protests, do you remember? Was it 12%? 14%. 14%. Yeah, well, we were at 12 or 13%, right, before- Any other questions, comments? All right, thank you, appreciate it. Thank you. We'll move into then our agenda item F, which is receive, report, and hold discussion of staff direction regarding departmental presentations. And how many of those will we be having, the departmental presentations? We're going to try to get through police and at least the courts, possibly animal services tonight. Okay, all right. Good. Yep. Good afternoon, Mayor, City Council members. My name's Nick Vincent, the city's budget manager. I'll do a quick introduction of the departments that are presenting today. As the city manager said, we'll try to get through as many as possible. Police is scheduled to go first. The chief should be here shortly. After that, we have animal services, municipal court, municipal judge, library, gas wells, and economic development. Well, everybody came in. With that, we'll give them a second to come in. Did he say gas well development? Yeah, economic development's the last one. We probably won't get there today. Chief, whenever you're ready, I'll pull your presentation up. Good evening, Mayor, Council, Frank Dixon, Chief of Police for Denton Police Department, and here to present our budget for this upcoming fiscal year. So first, I want to talk a little bit about our accomplishments this past year, or about eight and a half months since I've been here, and then our goals moving forward. We moved through the PERF study, implemented a lot of the programs that they talked about. I'm very happy with how we have proceeded through that process. One of the big things we did when we were looking at our efficiencies and effectiveness was hire additional civilian personnel, including our first-ever civilian public relations or media relations liaison. We brought in an accreditation and compliance specialist as a civilian position as well. We have added a crime scene investigator that is going to specifically focus on patrol, helping relief patrol officers with some of the things that they're doing to keep our officers on the street longer. We brought in a records lead technician and a second crime analyst who, again, is going to be focusing on getting more tactical information out to our patrol officers so we can get ahead of crime and not be so reactive to it. One thing we just finished implementing just this past week was getting naloxone out on the street for our patrol officers. We're actually going to also train some staff inside the police department, so during business hours when someone comes in the front lobby and they suffer an opioid-related event, we can treat them on scene as well. Then, as you can see, just other things that we have done this year is move to one consistent contract for our uniforms. We hadn't had one consistent contract from one vendor in the past. We also did it with our ammunition purchases, and we looked at initiating a new peer support program, which actually came in very handy this past week with our personnel inside the police department, and we're working with the fire department as well. So those are just some of the things that we have accomplished. Moving forward, October 1 is going to be a big date for us. We'll be implementing a new computer-aided dispatch system, a new records management system, hopefully a new radio system, and possibly a new cell phone system. So there's a lot of technology coming very quickly. October 1, having a launch date for a number of different processes, which again is just going to keep our police officers on the street. More available to deliver service, but more importantly, to focus on relational policing. That means getting them out of their cars, talking to our community that we're serving, and making and hopefully building some sustainable relationships with them. Moving into next year, we're going to continue with our accreditation and compliance process through the state of Texas, through the Texas Police Chiefs Association Recognition Program. And we are going to, between August and October, move a function from our child abuse unit over to a multi-disciplinary unit over at Serve Denton, which is going to be huge for them to be able to work with prosecutors, other service providers, and other law enforcement entities under one roof, so they're working towards one common goal together as a collective group and not spread out. As you can see, our dispatch calls for service continue to go up. This year, we're looking at getting close to 70,000 calls for service. To put that in perspective, on any given 12-hour shift, you have between 12 and 15 officers working, so you're looking at one police officer for eight square miles. When you think about putting it in that perspective over such a large area of the city, even neighborhoods can go days without seeing a police officer even drive through their community, which is one thing we're going to talk about later when we talk about staffing. But it's incredibly important to us, as our calls for service continue to climb, that we try to get ahead of that. And again, when we start talking about staffing a little bit later, I'll explain that a little bit more. Our 911 calls for service, they're staying pretty steady, kind of on par with last year, staying flat. But again, we want to make sure that we are proactively looking at how we deploy our people, the number of people on the street, but more importantly, the support on the backside as they go out. -Chief, real quick, and then Councilmember Armstrong has a question as well. On the first slide of the calls, the total calls? -Yes. -So the 911 calls are part of that total, and so the differences, are those the ones that are non-emergency calls? -Correct. -Okay, all right. -Exactly. -Okay, Councilmember Armstrong. -So the bulk of those are going to be property crimes. -Okay, got you. -That answered my question. -So one of the things that we are very pleased with being here in Denton is our Part 1 crimes that we report every year, which comprise of really your violent murder, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assaults, and then your Part 1 property crimes, burglary theft, and motor vehicle theft. Our numbers are looking really good, with the exception of motor vehicle theft, specifically with F-250 pickup trucks. If you own one, get some good insurance and put in some aftermarket security. They're getting stolen at just an alarming rate in our city right now. So F-250s, if you have one, look after it. But really good when you're looking at our violent crime is down, and this is all really contingent on the work that our police officers are doing every day, and our community being involved, calling when they see something, reporting crimes before they happen, suspicious persons, and really getting involved. So I can't speak highly enough about the numbers that we're looking at right now. Obviously, those can change on a dime, so we want to stay responsive to that. >> Councilmember Briggs. >> On the vehicle theft, is that -- are people breaking windows and breaking -- I mean, what is the increase on that? Is it -- do they have certain devices or doors unlocked or they just -- >> So the motor vehicle theft is actually auto theft, so they're stealing the entire vehicle. >> Right. No, I know. But how are they getting in? Are -- >> We don't. We don't know. Most times, they'll either use a technology to unlock, and we know that there's some keyless devices out there that are unlocking certain models of cars. Obviously, with the F-250s, they're being taken, most of them, down across the border. They're being used for both human smuggling, drug smuggling. So a good portion of those were not even recovering because they're gone. So as you look at our budget emphasis moving forward, one thing we're looking at is increasing our staffing. And so it was important to me that before we came to ask Council for increased staffing, that we brought in a firm not associated with the city, not associated with the police department, to do a comprehensive study. The police department hasn't had a top-to-bottom comprehensive study looking at patrol resources, investigative resources, and our civilian support resources ever. So we're going to bring in a firm out of California called The Matrix Group. They're going to come in and do that comprehensive study for us, and they're going to come in and present to you, Council, so you get this non-biased third party telling you what their study told them, and it's not just us coming in and giving you random numbers. Jail staffing increased. One thing we're in process of doing right now is hiring a civilian jail manager. Police officers are great at what we do as peace officers. Not so great when you start talking about budgeting, running a jail, doing things that peace officers really have no business doing. So I want to bring in a jail manager who is in the business of running a jail. Even though our jail does not have a mandate to meet state jail standards, that's the benchmark that I want to set. So we make sure that we're doing the best we can by our community. And then enhancing training and educational opportunities. Right now we're in the midst of creating a comprehensive training plan for 2020. It's going to open up opportunities for our police officers if they are looking at promoting to detective later in their career, looking at going to SWAT, looking at doing any number of avenues to later on in their career. We'll give them the opportunity to take courses to prepare them better for that before that time comes. Councilmember Meltzer has a question. Yes, Chief, if you don't mind, could you give an example of the kind of thing that we would do better if we brought our jail up to state standards? I don't really know what kind of aspects of the operation you're looking at. So one thing we're looking at right now is we're working the jail staff that we have, our detention officers. We're sending them through the TECOL Actual Jail Standards Academy, if you will. So right now we don't have a mandate to do that, but that's something that I want to do. So again, we're getting the best. We're delivering the best service we can. Other things, we'll look at staffing. There'll be a minimum staffing number. Right now there's some nights we only have two people working in our holding facility, which is pretty unacceptable when you're looking at the amount of liability that we're taking on by having a jail. And not to mention we're having human beings back there. So we want to make sure we have adequate staffing so we don't have any tragedies happen in our jail like we've seen across the country. Thanks. Certainly. So right now we're looking at our authorized staffing is 185 sworn police officers. Right now we're sitting at 177. The reason for this is so far this year we have had 14 officers leave the department, retirees. As a police officer retires, it takes us an inordinate amount of time to recruit, do background checks, get someone hired through an academy, through their field training program, and then out on the street. So what we're looking to try to do is close that gap considerably. So we're looking at a couple of different things. One, through meet and confer, which will tighten up the timeline we can recruit and train officers to get them on the street. So we're looking at getting certified officers inside the state of Texas that meet certain requirements. We can bring them in, get them through an abbreviated academy, an abbreviated training period, out on the street a lot faster. Because right now we will never catch up because we're always playing behind. Councilmember Briggs. Is that a different process than what we've done in the past? Correct. And is that something that is done just is it done by policy or just with department or meet and confer? So we're going through meet and confer right now to get that going. But since it's going to benefit both sides, I don't see it being a contingent. No, I think it's really important. I'm glad that you guys have problem solved to come up with this. I think it'll hopefully get people on the street a lot quicker. So that's just one thing we're looking at. We're looking at thinking outside the box how we can close that gap even more. So we're looking at updating our entire policy manual and our standard operating procedures, which is quite a feat. Right now it typically takes two to three years to do that. We have our two accreditation and compliance people cranking those out pretty quick. We're looking to start launching those in the next month or so and hopefully get a project that would typically take two and a half to three years done inside of about a year to 13 months. So incredibly quick. So we utilize the lexical reporting system or a system out of California also that not only gives us a good basis for policy, but it also gives us updates. We have a team of attorneys that do nothing but look at court decisions coming out across the country, but most importantly here in the state of Texas. And they annotate that in the policy and issue out not only updated policy, but training modules as well. So that would be a great move for us. I already talked about creating the five non-sworn positions to enhance our performance. One big thing we already completed was transferring animal services over to customer service out from the police department. Just some other things, redesigning our website to make it more user friendly so people can come to our website and get places in about two to three clicks instead of before. It was very clunky, cumbersome. It would take you up to four or five clicks. You'd have to know where you're going and it just really wasn't user friendly. And we reclassified some of our call priorities. So our highest priority call is a priority one call. That would be something like an aggravated robbery, a shooting. We had in that group of calls things that really didn't fit the definition of an emergency. So our call response was really skewed. We had officers being dispatched to like a theft that may have occurred two hours ago, but it was coming out as a high priority call. So for public safety, primarily, but more importantly, so we could get good data on what our response times look like. We went in and redesigned all of our call priorities that has helped us tremendously. One thing we're moving into as a school year starts, we're changing the name of our SROs from school resource officers to student resource officers. While the change in name seems very small, the philosophy behind it is huge. What I want the officers in our schools to be doing is more coaching and mentoring these kids as they're coming up, especially in the middle and high schools. Because that is the time where kids, I know being in high school myself, the time you're going to make a choice to either do the right thing or not. And having that mentor role model in the school is really going to hopefully help us with diverting some of those kids who would end up otherwise in trouble, keep them on the straight and narrow. And then we talked about the agency wide smartphones for sworn personnel, which will help us. They will have a technology to undock our mobile data computers inside of the vehicles because you have to have certain criminal justice information system standards, secure connections, so you can do that. And that will allow us to do that as well. If you want me to slow down, let me know. I know you have a packed agenda. Oh, no. Yeah. I don't see any questions. Yeah. So our revenue and expenditures. Luckily for us. This was worked out part of my coming here but the mo you we currently have with di sd raised the percentage of what they were paying back into the SRO program almost doubled it from 199 to 404,000. That started in June of this year. So some of the things that we're working through right now is our the police phone commission or the phones back in our holding facility or jail. We're working through right now, reviewing that contract because the vendor isn't giving us optimal service. So we're about to work into some processes if they don't fix what they're doing, we're going to move to terminate that contract and improve it. Councilmember armature has a question. naive question so this so this is when you call someone's in jail and you're going to, to, to visit and you call. And you pay for the call. Is that what this is, or that's when they're calling out from the. Okay. Okay. And so and revenues are down. Meaning that so the revenue that comes from the call. Right. So I have a certain percentage of each phone call that goes out. Right now we're not collecting on that for a number of different reasons, most of which are with the service provider that we currently have. And what so it's it's funny for this for whatever reason I had not known that that that that cities collect revenues on the calls coming out. You know, it's not a lot. Yeah, so it is, I mean, is it something that I mean do we need to have our revenue on on that I don't. I'm curious to know you know is, is, are there other factors that go into when you're looking at the different contracts, so well you have to have a system that you can monitor, because it's coming out of a penal facility, technically, out into the community. So we need to be able to monitor those. Those are recorded. So there's stop gaps there for public safety, not so much for us to listen to what they're saying, but to make sure that there's not them trying to contact outside people to intimidate witnesses. Right to go and do things like that. Chief just real quick on the, the DSD school resource contract or what is the what's our total what's the city's total expense for those student resource officers. Any idea if you don't know just you should be able to about double that $400,000. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. And I'm still in. Oh, I'm sorry. Mayor pro tem. I'm sorry. Thank you. I'm sorry I'm slowing up take, but I want to ask, Mr. City Manager. So, can you orient me. While he's talking I guess look back. So there was a tiers 123 and so there's police. There's public safety communication and then there was police line item. And so the mobile communication he's mentioned and is that tied to that tier to 1 million plus. So, but there's a 1 million plus tier two for police. And then there's a public safety communication tier three. And so I'm trying to see where that mobile communication falls, or is that the contract we already approved and paid for. Yeah. So those are already approved and paid for got that we're in the implement state implementation stage. Perfect. Thank you. So our autopay revenues are down most of that is due to the code of criminal procedure changing a couple years ago we're now we impound a vehicle for our own needs to preserve it for evidence. We have to pay for that. So we're impounding less vehicles, obviously, there's not really a need. Unless we, there's a true criminal investigation tied to that vehicle we're not impounding them if we can help it. And obviously as more personnel come on board our personal services are going to go up as well. Councilmember Armitage has a comment. I'm not sure so much of it is for you, Chief Dixon, or city manager, or both, but I'm curious to know if you could just say quickly about what the process is by which the distribution of the responsibility for paying for the SROs between DISD and the city is there. Is this something like DISD and staff sit down and, you know, how does this, how does it get determined, how often does, is this renegotiated? It was renegotiated last year, Superintendent Wilson and I sat down and worked through this. We had been paying for about, we've been receiving about half the money for, I think it was three or four SROs in the school system. And the deal that we had was that neither the water park contract, natatorium contract, nor the SRO program had really been looked at in years. So I agreed to bring in a firm, which we did, to take a look at the natatorium and water park and ways that we might find some efficiencies there to try to lessen our subsidy. And on the flip side, he agreed to put into the budget, you know, a 50% cost sharing of the SROs. So that's probably the first time that had been looked at in 10 years. Yeah, so there's no kind of regularly scheduled, it was just, oh yeah. It needs to be visited more frequently. Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you for that. And then our increase in tech services next year, the allocation will go up as well. So as you're looking here, you can see where, this is where most of our revenue comes back. The escorts that we provide right now, pretty low, about $28,000, which is proposed next year. The sale of our traffic reports, again, false alarm fees, we're very good about collecting on those, but you can see that huge dip in the police phone commission as we talked about, all the way from $12,000 down to $430. So we're estimated to get just very little this year based on the problems we're having with the contract and the vendor, which we're identifying and working through right now. And then as the criminal code of procedure change, you can see that dip in the auto pound recovery fees as well. So as we're looking at our budget highlights moving forward, part of the FY 18-19 estimate down there, the $1.3 million under operations. About $100,000 of that is going towards a matrix group to come in and conduct their study. So that number is going to look a little inflated on here. And then looking at the tech services allocation increase for next year, that's annotated under the cost of service, the $2.9 million for next year. And then this is just a summary of our positions as it stands right now. You can see where we have moved some personnel around inside of the police department, specifically out of the records division, we moved some of those civilian positions around the department. A couple of those going to the administration, one going to the jail. That's where that jail manager is coming from as well. And then a couple of additions that we have been lucky to get mid-year, which has really bolstered our criminal investigations by three and our neighborhood services by two. And then the .73 is going to be our crossing guards that we have. I don't know how that's calculated. Time I guess we have .73 people. And this is what we asked for in our supplemental this year. Really low for police officers plus vehicles to civilian jailers again working towards getting our staffing up so we can have adequate staffing, specifically at night when it's a little busier. And then the new program we're going to look at next year is creating a public safety officer position, which would be kind of like parking enforcement, only they'll be able to also take minor crashes, old report calls, pick up evidence, possibly process some scenes. And then rolling into that, we're looking at partnering with DISD, hopefully, with their ATC Police Explorer program. We lose those kids when they age out of the Explorer program and they go off to college, but the ones that want to be in law enforcement, I want to hopefully capture some of those, keep our talent here at home, roll them into an intern, which will turn into those public safety officers, until they reach the age of 21 where they can actually enter into the police academy and then become dentists. And then become dent police officers. So we're looking at exploring that in this next year. And I just want to comment on this slide because it looks like he's being not very aggressive, but over the course of the last year, we've probably moved at least four or five open FTEs over to PD. Every time we have a vacancy out of the general fund, we take a look at whether we need to refill it or not, but knowing that we know they're behind, we've been able to move that four number had been six, for instance, and we moved two more over, which you approved last week. So we're constantly trying to assess what existing dollars we have to keep it off the levy and not ask for increases. So I don't see really changing that philosophy. And I think the study here will give us a little bit more accurate target where he's short and out in the streets and also in the Detective Bureau. So we're going to continue that formula through the next year or two to help with the staffing. >> Do you know, Mr. City Manager, how many of those have you moved? Because it sounds like what you're saying is between the last budget cycle and this budget cycle, if you've had FTEs coming up in a different department, you've moved them, transferred them over to PD so that they can utilize them for whatever their greatest need is. >> The last two years, we've added 21 new positions to the PD, and I think about 15 of those have been internal transfers. >> Okay. Were most of those sworn officers, I guess, or would you say? >> I would say most of them. There has been some administrative assistance as well, because that was an area that was really short. But yeah, we're really trying to get as many sworn officers over there as possible. That public safety officer one, we're really going to be recommending you fund that as well this year. You know, there's obviously an acute need for traffic enforcement, especially when the college school is in session. We're working with UNT, but this is another big priority to try to take some of that workload off the police department and police officers that are out running calls that there's some other tasks that maybe don't rise to the level of what a police officer does and we can relieve them. I think it's a really sound strategy that we're going to be recommending to you. >> Are those -- the public safety officers, are those -- I think sworn officers are the licensed peace officers. I mean, what's the difference? Are they -- are public safety officers, are those licensed peace officers or they're a different category? >> They will not be. They'll be civilian. >> Okay. >> Like our parking enforcement crew. >> Okay. Got you. All right. >> So again, we wanted to make sure that we kept our ask for sworn officers down until we get this comprehensive study so we can actually come with some good, solid data and not just say a number and not have anything to support it. >> Is this the tier 2 amount that is back on the slide? >> The sworn officers would definitely be tier 2. The jailers, I believe, are tier 3 and the additional public safety officers would be tier 3 or 4. So all those would be in those first few tiers that we would recommend funding. >> Okay. So I guess what I think I heard you say, so correct me if I'm wrong, is when you say recommend funding, some of them are in tier 2, tier 3, and tier 4. Are you saying that we can pull some out of tier 4 and fund them in tier 2? Or are you saying, no, we're going to recommend you fund tier 2, 3, and 4? >> We're definitely going to be coming in recommending you fund tier 2, 3, and 4. There's two caveats before we scare everybody to death on the tax levy. Because I know the way that we've set that up, we keep trying to figure out the simplest way to show the dollar tranches we're working with. But we owe you a study which will come here in the next couple weeks on the rec fund and recouping some of the cost there. That's about a million dollars upside down. So you need to have a policy discussion on where your comfort level is. More importantly, though, we're doing an internal study right now of the development services fund. And that's under collecting our development services costs, about 3 million. So just as an example, should the council decide we're going to collect two of that $3 million, that brings down two pennies off the levy. So that's how it's all interrelated. And I'm not trying to scare anybody, but those first few tiers of operational costs, I just really don't think that we should be adopting a budget without funding those things. So what I'm hearing you say then is that you think that we will find some additional revenue, i.e., the park rec fund, which means if we're upside down a million dollars, somehow we recoup some of that. And in the development services, we recoup some of that 3 million. And that goes to help sort of buttress up those outlying tiers. So you get $4 million upside down, every million dollars you decrease, and it doesn't matter where it comes from, how we recoup it, it takes down that levy of penny. Any other questions? Was that your presentation? Okay, Gary, go ahead. No, that was it. No, no, seriously, I didn't know. That was it. Oh, that is it? Okay. Mayor Pro Tem. Two things. So thank you for your leadership on the recent drug bust, and I say it's a traffic incident turned into a drug bust, I guess. And then there's another arrest kind of to your point of, and I couldn't find the story on the short notice, but so it was a turn signal violation, which is relevant to something I'm talking to staff about. The fact of the matter is that also turned into charging someone. So I think that goes a long way to show the value add that you're talking about when we have more people just paying attention and sensitive to what's going on, what that can translate into to keep our communities safer. So I appreciate that, that focus and that leadership, and that's kind of what I see when you're talking about more people kind of just not running from call to call, but absolutely paying attention to surroundings and trying to be preventative. Anything else? Thank you, Chief. Appreciate it. Appreciate your leadership. All right, we've got one another. We're gonna do at the end of the council meeting. No. Mayor City Council. Yes, yes, Tiffany Thompson director customer service I want to be respectful of your time and get their animal services budget. So our mission and animal services is to promote the health, safety and welfare of both animals and people and didn't through compassionate responsive care we operate the shelter which is an open admission shelter. That means we take all animals domestic and livestock regardless of type breed if they're aggressive straight abandoned abused we take them all. We take about 5400 animals a year and we see about 60,000 customers come into the operation. Just some high level accomplishments we've reestablished good relationships with our Denton Animal Support Foundation and our animal shelter advisory committee. We have done an operational review where we brought in a consultant that did a stem to stern audit on the operation gave us a lot of process improvements that we've already taken care of, and we're going to be focusing on some of the staffing here coming up in just a moment. In terms of multiple capital improvement processes we've added safety kennels for barn cats and our feral cats that are out there added tarps shades for the dogs that are outside, and we won the best of didn't award for best pet rescue organization, and we've rebranded the mission to make sure that we're having a service mentality out of the shelter, and our community recently recently selected our logo that we're using. So what's coming up here is to recruit and maintain at active shelter volunteers. Have some good news we need to update that goal because over the last couple months we've been focusing on that we have 195 active shelter volunteers, just with the emphasis that we've been having. We've also input we're going to be implementing a customer service survey so after you've come out and made an adoption we're going to be following up getting feedback on how that adoption went, and just seeing how else we can improve. We want to continue to increase our live release rate our goal is 85% or more currently right now we're hitting 88%, and we're hoping to end the fiscal year at 90% this year, and then just continuing to do community outreach with events at the shelter, and also getting out in the community to make sure they know about the shelter and getting these animals adopted. So our budget emphasis is adequately funding the animal services operation to ensure the welfare of both animals, and also the staff needs, we are going to be asking for additional funding to ensure that we're able to meet those tasks with the consultant review one of the things that was pointed out is the industry standards for capacity of capacity of care. So what that means for every animal we have at the shelter we need to make sure we have at least 15 minutes a day for that animal to be able to feed and clean their living space. We have eight ACOs that take care of that now it's a seven day a week operation. So you start off with six ACOs because the other ones just have their days off. You have to account for natural shrinkage with a vacation and sick time so you may start with three or four ACOs. We have a capacity at the shelter of 253 animals to be able to take care of 253 animals would take 10 hours at six ACOs. So right now we are short to a CEO positions. Are those trained and allowed to do the, what you just said that the cleaning of the kennels and can they help supplement that they can assist with cleaning there's definitely a certain standard operating procedure to make sure that we're cleaning it appropriately, and also interacting with that animal in the kennel. The one thing with volunteers is you can't always count on them to show up during with for the business needs so they are a great resource but it is difficult to count on them to be able, are you going to be able to show up to augment what we need for staff resources will note that capacities 253 animals we've hit capacity three times just this summer right now we have 242 animals in the shelter. So this is a great example of Milton the dog. He came into our shelter that we took in he was in really bad shape. We rehabilitated him put 17 pounds of healthy weight and got him adopted out so great example of the type of work done out here. Milton's very handsome. I seem to recall from an earlier presentation that you had a goal of having training opportunities for the ACO does the budget cover that it's in the additional funding that we have additional training for for all of our ACS positions. So our cost containment strategies strategies a couple I wanted to note is we did make a change from kit clay cat litter this year, clay cat litter while we thought was the most cost effective we found was very messy in the kennels where multiple cats are at it also causes upper respiratory infections we've switched over to equine pellets that also saved us $18,000 it's more clean in the kennels, and the upper respiratory infections in our fields are down. So that's pretty exciting and then our volunteers and our foster and rescue groups are ones I want to point out. So our volunteers they equal out to about 1.5 FT ease. I don't know if you've seen any of the pictures that we post on Facebook, but that's done by professional photographer that donates all of her time to do that, and our foster and rescue partners to they help us reduce our population levels increase our adoptions with further increases. What are live release rates are. So overall our process improvements have been surrounded based off of customer service focus quality assurance, and making sure that we're just, we have created standard operating procedures we have a Spanish resource out in the operation. We've reduced our voicemail by 30% we're answering the phone calls quickly. One of the more exciting process improvements that we're working on right now is we've applied to the Petco foundation partnership to allow us to do off site adoptions which we don't do right now. So we'll be able to go to Petco and university and do adoptions and also apply for their grants and programs are waiting to see if we get approval for that. Our biggest source of revenue and the operation is our adoptions $60 for the adoptions that's where the majority of our revenue comes from. So our budget highlights the biggest change is in our personnel services. This year we did find out that we were not competitively paying our AC on a CO one position so we address that immediately upon finding that. And we also have done more medical testing, specifically tied to our feelings with FIV and FVLV. So that's an additional cost as well. So our position right now we have 16.5 positions we've been able to add 2.5 positions this year 1.5 in a CSR and a manager position to be able to take care of the functions that go on. And then, currently, one of the most exciting things about this is that this is only one slide long a couple months ago this was two slides long and we had an additional 12 items that were on this list and so through the support of the city manager's office the finance department and didn't animal support foundation, we've been able to fund and move those things just a couple of those is additional shade sources for our large yard and small yard ACO air conditioning brackets for our field officer vehicles. Benches and cat towers multiple animal enrichment things so all those have already been taken care of so what we're seeking is those additional positions to meet our capacity for care with the ACO positions and then also temporary kennel technicians to help with their busy time. Right now we're inundated with kitties and puppies while they are very cute they take a lot to take care of, and the volunteer coordinator would assist us with our rescue fosters volunteers in our community outreach. So with that, Council Member Armitage and then Council Member Briggs. Oh my gosh, sorry. I can do the face. Can you can you speak to the, are there any obviously even listed them on the for the supplementals but needs for the vehicles with air conditioning somebody had mentioned to me that you know that they were concerned and they wanted to know about the air conditioning. In the vehicles that transport animals, that's one of the things that was funded already so they're going to be here in August, we're already working with fleet to get that installed excellent that's one of the 12 or whatever off the list. Great. Could you go back to the last my question is the temporary kennel technician so we have a contract right for services for other technicians, or is that would they be doing the same thing for the veterinarian veterinarian technicians but not kennel technicians for cleaning. So it's different. Oh okay. Okay. This is an addition to be able to help us with our busy seasons. Okay, thank you. Yes, Councilmember Melzer. Thanks. Where do we stand on that outdoor watering for the yard. So what we've done is, we weren't able to find a good resource for that but the best thing that we've done is whenever we're taking the animal outside they get their own pail of water, and we bring the animal back in, we change out the water goes out with a new animal and that's been working. And then, if I may share about, you know, perhaps this is also already magically funded for the cat room putting in cat screens, a drain AC duct. We're working on the AC duct with facility management now we did add the additional cat tower so they actually have places to play around but we are not play around but have enrichment and with it so for this for the screens we're working on the screens we have added shades with that so that's one of the things still on our list but it's going to be taken care of, but not looking for funding for those things you're kind of on it. And I'll just happily report that mochi the kitten is like this big. I'm so happy. Please tell your friends to adopt. Okay, any other questions. Yes, one thing for the city manager I don't know that it fits in this budget cycle but I would like to try to maybe highlight or draw your attention to maybe some sort of signage. I do anticipate increased traffic to the Vela soccer complex. So if there's kind of some kind of way to have a monument sign something similar to the parking, you know, Cedar Park and something like that that we could do to kind of take advantage of that extra traffic to maybe get them to stop by on the way in or out, that'd be fantastic. We're pressing on electronic sign, just for that reason. Yes, we're currently working on that great minds thinking like I have the mind of a T Rex. Any other questions. All right, so very much appreciate it to be Thompson director customer service we're going on a mental court. Are you ready. This will take four minutes. I timed it. All right, municipal courts are highlights in municipal court we've implemented a quality assurance program to increase increase our improve our defendant satisfaction we've launched an after call satisfaction survey both in person and on the phone. We are going to be next year working on implementing an upgrade for encode system to increase our quality case management and continue to remove manual processes to more automated. One of the big things we do is work very closely with Judge Fox to implement her direction and initiatives and projects. So some of our cost containment strategy and process improvements were very paper like court. This is a picture of one of our young ladies taking the survey that you would take in person. So you're asked three questions and also provided an option to get a call back from a supervisor. We've had 600 defendants take this survey I wanted to note some of the comments. This is the nicest court I've ever been to and I've been to many of the best court ever and it's refreshing someone being so nice about all of my options. One of the things also that is we've been heavily assessing positions and reclassifying based off what the court needs are now, and then we have been reducing any underutilized positions. So our overall our budget is decreasing that's a specifically tied to our decrease in our personal services even though we do have a couple of line item increases with them. And our positions we have we started out with 15 positions we've eliminated to FCS and the operation just based off the effectiveness of the court clerks and process improvements. And so with that, we happy to answer any questions. I really tried hard. Any questions, comments? Yes, Councilmember Armitage. I just want to say welcome again to Judge Fox who is here. Good to see you. Okay, anything else. All right. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. Okay. I think this was our. Yeah, we're going to catch. Is that a different one? Yeah. Yeah, we're going to get that on at the next agenda item because make sure we get out on council meeting on time. Okay. Any other comments before we adjourn. We'll stand adjourned till 630. Everybody to this meeting of the Denton City Council. It is six about 635 on July the 16th, 2019. Our first item on the agenda will be the pledge to the American and Texas flag. So if you'll stand if you're able to join with us. To the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. On my Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the University of Texas, one state under God, one indivisible. We've got some proclamations. Okay, the first proclamation is for I double F Denton Lodge number 82 days. So who's here? One down, Connie. Anybody that wants to join you, please come down and. If you wouldn't mind introducing yourselves and just tell us a little bit about Lodge number 82. Well, I'm Connie Baker. I'm a past Grandmaster of the Oddfellas. And like she said, the Lodge has been here 160 years, so we're celebrating a lot of work here in the community. I'm Barbara Chapman, and I'm current financial secretary, I think. And yeah, just a two year member, but my parents have been in for over 50 years, my in laws, I should say. And thank you. We appreciate your coming. Okay, all right. Just making sure you bet. Wonderful. This is a proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton, whereas the independent order of oddfellows I double F Denton Lodge number 82 was charted June the 10th, 1859. And its charter members were Otis F. F. Welch, John S. Chisholm, Hugh McKenzie, James B. Ford, and William H. Walker. And whereas for 160 years, the I double, I can't even say that, I double F excuse me, Denton Lodge number 82 has held to the ideals of friendship, love, and truth as guiding principles when it discharged its obligations to visit the sick. Relieve the distress, bury the dead and educate the orphan. It is done so by establishing the Denton I double F cemetery in 1860 and building the first structure in Denton to be used exclusively as a school building in 1872 as services to the citizens of the city of Denton and Denton County. And whereas the I double F Denton Lodge number 82 continues to serve the community by contributing money and time to the arthritis Foundation, the Salvation Army, our daily bread didn't community food pantry, visual research foundation, assisting agencies honoring law enforcement, firefighters, EMT and veterans, and sponsoring a little league baseball team, as well as providing student scholarships. Whereas the hundred and 60th anniversary open house celebration of the I double F Denton Lodge number 82 will be held on Saturday, August the third 2019 at the lodges meeting hall at 1415 Eden Lane in Denton, Texas. Now therefore I Chris Watts mayor of the city of Denton, do hereby proclaim, August the third 2019 as I double F Denton Lodge number 82 day, and would encourage the citizens to attend the hundred and 60th, the hundred and 60th anniversary open house celebration at the I double F Denton Lodge number 82 and extend best wishes for continued service to our community. Thank you, Connie. Thank you all so much for doing that. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay, the next proclamation will be Denton Disability Rights Day. And we have Melissa Treadwell as interpreter with the Deaf Action Center. So whoever wants to come down, come on down. Who's going to accept the proclamation and we'll get you to introduce yourselves. How are you. How are you. Good. Okay, that's good. Fantastic. Welcome. Who wants to give us a few comments about Denton Disability Rights Day. Okay. Here in Denton, and disability rights is a really important issue. Disability rights are civil rights and their human rights and what people with disabilities call society is to provide equal access and full inclusion to programs services employment opportunities. Pretty much all of life so in commemoration of the 29th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act. We will be hosting a disability rights rally on July 27th at the square at 7pm. So we welcome all of you to be there. Thank you. I'm going to pass the mic around and if y'all feel free to introduce yourself. Is that okay. Clay Thurmond, and I am a temporarily abled ally for disabilities. My name is Alison Kelly. I'm on the committee on persons with disability for the city. My name is Abigail Clement. I'm Secretary of the DCDP Disability Committee. Hi, I'm Judy Thurmond, and I'm a member of this committee on persons with disabilities. My name is Tim Swanson, a person with disability and my service dog Kismet. Thank you, Swan. Ally, member of the Disability Committee of DCDP. Martha Bergen, ally and member of the committee and I'm here with my son Ruben who's a little person. Kim Higgins, I'm an ally and member of the committee. Mark Oliphant, I'm an ally. I'm also the city staff member who's the liaison to the city's committee on persons with disabilities. I'm a part of the committee that's helping plan the ADA 29 event on Saturday. I'm also a person with a disability. Hi, I'm Lauren Taylor and I am Miss Wheelchair Texas 2019, which is an advocacy platform for people with disabilities. Thank you. Okay, y'all can. Y'all can stay up here. Yeah, we still got to read the proclamation. But if you want to return to your seats, that's fine, too. But I'm going to go ahead and read the proclamation. This is a proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton. Whereas we recognize the July anniversary of the signing of the Americans with Disabilities Act as the beginning of the modern disability rights and inclusion movement. And whereas we recognize the tireless efforts of disability rights advocates and allies who have pursued equal access for all citizens, regardless of ability status in Texas and abroad. And whereas we recognize that on July 26, 1990, the American with Disabilities Act was signed as a civil rights law prohibiting discrimination against individuals with disabilities in all areas of public life, including employment, transportation, education, and all public and private places that are open to the general public. Now, therefore, I, Chris Watts, mayor of the city of Denton, Texas, do hereby proclaim July 27, 2019 as Denton Disability Rights Day and encourage the citizens of the city of Denton to join in recognizing the 29th anniversary, the 29th anniversary of the signing of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Thank you all so much for being here. Thank you very much. [ Applause ] [ Silence ] OK, the next proclamation is for the Denton Citizens Academy. So who's with the Denton Citizens Academy? Come on down. [ Silence ] OK. Who wants to tell us a little bit about what the Denton Citizens Academy program is? And then I want you to introduce yourself. And I want you to tell me what the most interesting thing is that you learned as a member of the Denton Citizens Academy this time. All right. Thank you. The Denton Citizens Academy was a five-session program. So these are the participants. It's open to everybody in Denton. But they came, they gave up four Saturdays to learn about everything from the council manager form of government to how the water and wastewater plants work, the landfill, libraries. We took a visit out to Clear Creek and parks facilities. Finally ended up at the airport to learn about some development and construction. So they're leaders in Denton learning about everything that Denton has to offer. Is it OK to start with you, your name, and then just the thing that you -- yes. OK. My name is Julie Schenck. And like I say, I'm a member of the class. And I think my favorite thing was learning about all the development that's going on with the airport, which I've lived here for 37 years. I didn't know the airport had developed that much and how much more it's developing and all the other economic development that I've seen and am learning about after living here for so long. Thank you. Appreciate it. My name is Carol Lambert. And I truly recommend that everyone go and enjoy the Academy. You learn a lot. I really enjoyed the development part. I didn't realize all that went in to securing places to come to Denton. It's very, very interesting. Hello. My name is Amy Morgan. And I would recommend that anybody who wants to volunteer with the city or seek an elected office be on a board and commission that you really should participate in Citizen Academy. Really affords you the opportunity to really understand what goes on in the city. And it gave me some ideas for how maybe different organizations can collaborate to make things better. Hi, I'm Skyler Buffington. And for me, I think the most interesting part of the whole experience was getting to talk with different city staffers and different departments and hear exactly what their plans are for the future of Denton for the next 10 to 20 years and see all the like goals that they had in mind for as the city continues to develop. Hello, I'm Deborah Shepherd. And that was really difficult to say one. However, I will say the police department training center. I had been in the front area because they have meetings there, but to see the training that they do to keep us safe. I'm Thomas Johnston. I'm kind of embarrassed of how little I knew about city government and how it works and the breadth of the responsibilities that you guys have. And so it really increased my respect for what everybody that's part of the city does. I was impressed by how many city employees that we met were 20-year, 30-year employees. And everybody seemed very dedicated to trying to make this a good community for all of us. So I really appreciated that. Oh, and the Engage Denton app, I used it as soon as the day I learned about it. And within 48 hours, the issue had been resolved. So big thumbs up. My name is Shane Warren. I think the most compelling thing that I learned was that firefighters fight so much more than just fires. Like they're all trained as EMTs. They have a bomb squad unit, hazardous waste, swift water. They're just full of tips and information about how they do it. And you can tell when they're talking that they love that their job is all of this stuff and fighting fires. It's just it's truly amazing. I'm so glad I learned it. I'll never see firefighting the same way again. Hello, my name is Eric Meisner. I guess my favorite part of it was learning a lot about DME and ERCOT. I mean, that was just a whole new bottle of wax that I knew nothing about, for sure. Also, I would recommend anyone out there very interested in our city government, please join the Descendants' Academy. And you'll get to ask questions to all the different department heads that give their presentations. So if you wanted a one on one with someone, it's going to be right there for you. Thank you. I'm Cheryl Ellis, and I enjoyed every single minute of it. And it made me very, very proud to live in Denton. But the thing that surprised me was the Denton Firefighters Museum. That is so awesome. And you all should go. It's really, really awesome. Thank you all so much for participating. Thank you, Stuart, for your leadership in that. I think it does give everybody an opportunity to see a part of Denton that they they haven't seen before. In fact, I was looking up at the the pictures as you were talking, and I think one of them was people looking over. It looked like during the at the wastewater treatment plant. So, yeah, I don't think very many people get to see the wastewater treatment plant. So thank you all so much. And anybody that's interested, please just be sure. And when is it typically is it this time? Next spring, we'll advertise for it. So start looking out if you're interested in February twenty twenty and well, the program runs for four weeks over the summer. All right, I'll read the proclamation. This is a proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton, whereas the Denton Citizen Academy is a volunteer educational program offered through the different departments of the city of Denton, consisting of five sessions, sessions, excuse me, which encompass public safety, development and growth, utilities and quality of life, utilities and quality of life. Excuse me. Providing tours through many of the departments within these areas. And whereas the Denton Citizens Academy objective is to give citizens an opportunity to acquire a better understanding of their city government and services through interactive sessions, which I think from the testimonies here that that that certainly that certainly happened. And whereas the Denton Citizens Academy helps to create a cadre of informed citizens and provides the tools to become involved in the city boards, commissions and committees to help shape the future of the city of Denton. And whereas the program obtains feedback and new perspectives from these citizens regarding governmental programs and services and opens the line of communication and transparency. Now, therefore, I, Chris Watts, mayor of the city of Denton, Texas, do hereby recognize the 2019 graduating class of 20 citizens from the Denton Citizens Academy and applaud their commitment to Denton's betterment and all the benefits it brings to our community. Thank you all so much for taking the time to learn more about our city. Thank you all for coming. The ones that are wanting to exit will give them a just a minute or so to do that. Okay, we're going to move on with our agenda. Agenda item number three, which is presentation from members of the public. If we could review the procedures for addressing the city council. The Denton City Council has adopted rules of procedure, including a code of conduct that applies to citizens, as well as council members. These rules were enacted to promote an orderly process and to preserve decorum. Here is a brief review of the rules that apply to citizen reports. Citizens will have four minutes to give a scheduled citizen report and four minutes to give an open mic report. There will be an electronic bell when time has expired. If the remarks are not concluded by that time, the citizen will be asked to stop speaking. If the citizen does not cease and a second request is made, the mayor will request to have the citizen removed from the council chamber. Citizens are asked not to approach the dais. If a citizen has papers or other materials to hand out to the council, please let the city secretary know in advance. For scheduled citizen reports, the council may initiate discussion or questions following each citizen report. For non-scheduled open mic citizen reports, the council may listen to citizens speak. However, because no notice of the subject of the open mic report has been provided to the public in advance, the Texas Open Meetings Act limits any deliberation or decision by the council to, a proposal to place the item on a future agenda, a statement of factual policy, or a recitation of existing policy. Citizens are asked to direct all remarks and questions to the council as a whole and not to any individual member. Please refrain from making abusive, personal, impertinent, profane, or slanderous remarks. Anyone who violates this council rule of procedure may be immediately removed from the council chamber. Thank you in advance. Copies of the rules of procedure are available from the city secretary. >> Okay, we'll go on to agenda item 3B, which is review scheduled citizen reports from members of the public. We have one scheduled citizen report from Petra Kelly regarding the Denton Music and Arts Collaborative. If Petra is here, if she'll come down, if she'll come down, state your name and address, your time will begin. >> Hello, my name is Petra Kelly and I live at 1718 Linden Drive in Denton. I am here on behalf of DMACC and you are here. DMACC is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit established in 2017 and run by volunteers and dedicated members of the Denton community who seek to improve the lives of local artists by offering subsidized healthcare coverage. SpiderWeb Salon is a prolific DIY art collective based in Denton of over 100 current members. One year ago, members of DMACC and SpiderWeb Salon formed a committee to address the mental health needs of our local creatives. Our concern was born from personal and firsthand experience, witnessing friends, family and peers deal with difficult issues. Even with insurance, which many of us do not have, being able to afford therapy can be a burden on individuals who are already struggling with the rising housing market and lack of institutional support for artists in Denton. The two organizations have been meeting monthly to work on the project since last summer. DMACC is handling the primary logistics, while SpiderWeb Salon is assisting with fundraising and connecting local artists to relevant supplemental materials and resources. The project is called "You Are Here" and there are two operational aspects. The first is NAMI, which is National Alliance on Mental Health, a certified peer-led mental health support group, operated by trained volunteers on a weekly basis. The mission of this group is to provide a safe and supportive environment to artists, writers and musicians who live in Denton to address personal and collective issues of anxiety, depression, trauma and grief in our community. For this part of the project, we require a large meeting space, preferably near downtown, accessible by public transit and secluded enough to promote anonymity to conduct the weekly meeting, preferably after normal business hours during the week. We have exhausted all of our known options that are within our budget, so that's why I'm here. We request that the city might help us in this matter, as there are surely resources unknown to us that might be utilized. The second aspect of the project is to provide subsidized counseling and therapy for qualified individuals who identify as artists, musicians or writers. To qualify, individuals must submit an application to DMACC, verifying their needs and financial situation, and in turn, DMACC will connect them with a licensed professional and provide 8 to 12 weekly sessions. The more funds we raise and the more financial support we can rally from the city, local organizations and businesses, the more people we can help. We do currently have a licensed mental health professional that is willing to offer their services to individuals in need of such one-on-one counseling. We would like to request the city allocate monetary resources to this project. Though the city entities like to boast a thriving creative scene, the truth is, many of us are quite literally struggling to survive on a daily basis. The suicide rate in Denton County has been steadily rising since 2014, and though we have no specific data on how many of those deaths were by individuals who identify as an artist, you would be hard pressed to find a creative in our community. The very same community creating the culture that Denton depends on to shape the personality of our city, who is not personally affected by depression, anxiety, grief, trauma, and/or other serious health concerns. There is currently nothing in place by the city to financially assist local artists with regard to their housing, mental health, primary health care, career development, or other basic needs, which are all tied to an individual's overall well-being. DMACC is an excellent example of the community coming together to help itself, but we feel that maybe the city of Denton could take some responsibility for the communities that represent the heartbeat of the city. We hope you will assist us with this project and consider working more closely with local creatives to form other initiatives that can work to boost the creative economy of Denton by directly supporting artists and art organizations. Thank you. I appreciate your time. - A couple of questions for you? - Yeah, for sure. - Or comments? Council Member Briggs? - Yeah, so I just have a comment and a few questions for staff, but I wanted to thank you for coming and sharing this project with council and the community, whoever's watching. I'm amazed daily at what our community does when it sees a need, in this case mental health, and with our artists community, and you guys have stepped up, and I would love to be able to help in any way that we can, and I would like to see if there's a way that we could, if they could apply for a sponsorship. I know that we have that, if that would be that, or a meeting space, a group space that we could help provide for the NABI. And so if we could follow up and get information and maybe reach out and see how we can help. - Absolutely. - Thanks for coming. - Council Member Armitage? - Thank you, and very much along those lines, I wanted to see also a request from staff to look into our Public Arts Committee funding resolution and possibilities, and to see what possibilities we have for using public arts monies, both at our Public Arts Committee, and then through the upcoming bond election to have services for artists. I'm guessing with the latter that might not be possible, but it would just be interesting to see kind of what possibilities there are, because you can't have public art without artists who are healthy and housed, so thank you. - That's the idea, thank you. - Any other, Mayor Pro Tem, Hudspeth? - Thank you, thank you, Mayor. So two things, I'd like to, I guess, understanding the concern, I'd also note maybe we can talk to DCTA. They have that conference room, and then worst case, I think maybe as a temporary fix, Stoke has that open space, and there's some access capabilities there, so whatever those, I'll let you consider those things. And then I thank you for being here, it's an outstanding organization, and you'll save me an email. So I have, could I, could staff put me down, so I have, I'd like to dedicate $400 out of my contingency funds to DMACC. If I can, that'll save me an email, send in that, if you'd be so kind, so thank you very much. - Thank you very much, that's very kind. - Okay, anybody else? Thank you very much, I appreciate it, thank you so much for your presentation. - Thanks, y'all, I appreciate you. - You bet. Okay, those are the last of the scheduled citizen reports. We have one, just one, okay, one blue card under the heading of additional citizens reports, which we commonly refer to as open mic. So during that time, certainly the citizen is able to give their report to the council, but due to posting regulations and the such, the council will be unable to respond back, but, so I want to ask Lauren Taylor, is, oh yes, yes. Yeah, let me get that. Is that good? Billy, you got mic on? Can y'all hear me? Okay, good. Hello, I am very new here, so I apologize, I showed up and they said, "Would you like to speak?" And I said, "Sure." So I just want to say hi and just kind of introduce myself. I'm Lauren Taylor, and I am Miss Wheelchair Texas 2019, and what that is, is not a beauty pageant, but an advocacy platform for people with disabilities. So I am originally here on the proclamation for Disability Day, but I just wanted to introduce myself and my platform that I advocate for in case any of you guys would be interested in kind of partnering on anything or had any ideas, anything like that. So, my platform is Universal Design for Inclusion, and what that means is making places and environments universally accessible to both people with and without disabilities at the same time, and it's not separate access, somewhere different. For example, the entrance to this building, going on kind of a wild goose chase to get to this, because there's a separate accessible entrance. Now, obviously, some of this is because of how old buildings are and things like that, and so that is kind of my mission of what I'm trying to do, is make places a little more easier, or that's not a word, a little easier for people with disabilities to access without costing those without disabilities anything. Some examples that are easy are even just vibrating on your phone, texting on your phone. That was originally invented for people who are deaf. Texting, everyone uses texting, and that's the embodiment of Universal Design, is everyone can use it, but it's especially useful for people with disabilities. Ramps, everyone can walk up a ramp, but not everyone can walk upstairs. So, that's kind of the gist of what I just wanted to bring to the table. It's really important to me, it's really important to our disability community, and so I'm just trying to put my wheels in whatever door they'll go through for any help or, you know, support in my efforts to bring Universal Design across Denton and across Texas. So, thank you guys, and I'll see you later. Thank you very much, Lauren. I appreciate that. Okay, thank you, Lauren. Alright, the next item on the agenda is the Consent Agenda. Councilmember Ryan? Thank you, Mayor. I move approval of the Consent Agenda with the exceptions of items A, B, E, H, S, and U. Do we? Okay. A, B, E, H, S, and U. Correct. Okay. Alright. And what we will do is we will take those up as items for individual consideration right after any action on the Consent Agenda. We have a motion. Do we have a second? Councilmember Davis? Second. We have a second. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries. Seven to zero. Y'all will excuse me while I'm trying. I've got, we've got cards coming in and so I'm trying to make sure we don't, I don't get them in the wrong place so everybody has an opportunity to speak. Okay, so we're going to take these up individually as they appear alphabetically. So agenda item A is considered adoption of an ordinance of the City of Denton prohibiting parking on the south side of Hickory Street from Avenue B to Welch Street. And I believe we do have, we'll have a staff presentation and then I do have three cards. Two of them are for both 4A and B which I believe sort of go together and I've got one for 4A. So the persons who have marked 4A and 4B, if you want to give all your presentation at once, that's fine. If not, you won't split it up. That's okay, too. Good evening. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, members of the council. My name is Preetam Deshmukh, Deputy City Engineer, and I will be talking about both item A and B as they go. Hand in hand, they're connected items. So this presentation is a combined effort. Okay, let me call that item then as well. Is that going to be proper, Mr. Attorney? Okay. So agenda item 4B is considered adoption of an ordinance of the City of Denton converting the traffic pattern on Avenue A from Hickory to Mulberry and Mulberry Street from Avenue A to Welch from two-way traffic to one-way. Thank you. So quick brief background on this particular item. Hickory Street extends all the way from Bonnie Bray past the square, and the entire length from Bonnie Bray, just a little short of the square, has a bike facility. Currently there is a bike lane running all across Hickory Street, except for two blocks that are currently under consideration. This is between Avenue B and Welch. Given the area is primary retail, there are several multiple uses around it, we hired a consultant to look at multiple options for accommodating bike infrastructure in this area. Based on that, we presented, we had community meetings, we presented options at the Traffic Safety and Mobility Committee, and a preferred option or alternative was selected as a result of that. This alternative required eliminating parking on Hickory Street, and quickly, this is the alternative where you can see on the south side, parking is completely eliminated, there is a buffered bike lane that goes from Avenue B through Avenue A all the way to Welch. So this is the preferred alternative that was endorsed by Traffic Safety and Mobility as well as City Council in one of the work session items. So what happened is, since we're eliminating all the parking on the south side on Hickory, along this particular segment, staff was tasked to look at other alternatives and options, and based on that, staff came up with a recommendation that required converting the traffic flow along Mulberry Avenue, which is this east-west short piece, as it turns, and Avenue A. The current traffic pattern is two-way traffic along this entire stretch of both these roads. As we move forward, we wanted to convert that traffic flow to a one-way from east to a westbound traffic on Mulberry and a northbound traffic on Avenue A. By doing that, what we can do is add more parking, on-street parking, parallel along Mulberry and angled along Avenue A. So this is the parking that we gained or added to the system. So this was a replacement parking that went hand-in-hand to the removed parking because of the bike lane. So what are the prior actions for this particular item? We took it to Traffic Safety Committee, which endorsed option two. Similar thing with Mobility Committee endorsed option two in conjunction with Avenue A and Mulberry converted to one-way, which would add additional parking, and during the council work session, we received a similar endorsement. Staff recommendation at this time is to move forward both item A and B to restrict parking first, and then convert Avenue A and Mulberry to one-way street so that we can add additional parking. Councilmember Davis. So I requested that we pull both of these items in conjunction off of the Consent Agenda, and I want to first recognize a lot of work went into formulating the options that were presented to each of those committees, and my intention is not to rock the boat or dial back work that was previously done. I just want to point a couple things out before we, and I want to consider these items individually. First, we have a mobility plan in the works that I think has implications for a street of the caliber of Hickory. We also have construction projects currently going on on Hickory. I'm worried about the timing of making parking changes there. I also worry about reducing parking. I know we're making up for it on Mulberry and Avenue A, but I have additional concerns about that. In an area that's already very, parking is very competitive. If you don't get there the right times of day, you just don't get a spot, whether you're there as a student or whether you're there to visit our retail. I'm also, I favor the Parking Protected Bike Lane option that was presented to each of those committees. Under that option, you can have your cake and eat it too, and of course, there are expenses involved and there are other considerations, pros and cons, but under that model, you have a bike lane that is dedicated or a bike, you could have a bike trackway that's elevated, but in this way you could do it on the asphalt surface, and then you have parking outside of it. You have parking outside of that bike lane buffer that serves as the physical barrier between cars and bikes. It's safer for bikes, it's safer for cars, it makes good use of our existing roadway. So I prefer that option, and then recognizing that these two things are very closely tied together, I also generally favor two-way streets. I don't think anyone who frequents the businesses on, it's kind of a combination of Mulberry and Fry there, what we traditionally call the Fry Street businesses, right now you can get in and out of those businesses on a two-way. If we make that stretch of Mulberry and Fry one-way, we will not very long from now be looking back and wondering why am I having to navigate the intersection of Welch and Mulberry where there's heavy foot traffic. You have four competing crosswalks or four directional crosswalks. If you want to get a sandwich, at any time you have any kind of students either going to their morning classes, getting out of their evening classes, at any point, even middle of the afternoon on Sunday, you're going to encounter students or just folks using the sidewalks and the crosswalks at the intersection of Mulberry and Welch. It's very heavily trafficked, there's a lot of conflict points between pedestrians and cars, and so I really applaud the work that's gone into this proposal. However, I think it's a step backward for bike traffic, I think it's a step backward for pedestrian safety, well intentioned, but I just, I can't support it. All right, thank you. Council Member Ryan. Yeah, I'd ask for this to be pulled and at one point the mobility committee was actually split because we had one recusal because a plan was presented to us to use the existing sidewalk as the bike path, which means we could have left the parking on the street and work with UNT to add a new walking path that would weave through the trees that people tend to like walking through that shaded area a little better anyhow. And so I can't support it, I understand the main reason behind that was because we would have to take into design, take that to the Board of Regents at UNT, so it's going to be a timing issue, but I felt like we could hold off on the striping of whether it's parking or a bike path until that August timeframe, so that's why I'm not in support of Item A, but I am in support of Item B. Council Member Briggs. So I am just surprised. Because parking all of a sudden is an issue but we had a couple of sessions ago we had an option for a lot to purchase for parking for this specific area, and at that time, the concern wasn't there. So I'm just really confused about that part, why it is an issue now, and I will say that for Item A, we dragged it out as long as we could until we had an option to make up that parking, because this council was not on board with removing that parking unless we could find it and replace it. And that's what we did, staff got creative, and we figured out at least to replace the parking and add maybe a few for this so that the bike plan could continue, and so that's where I am, and I am here to make a motion to approve this. But I did want to ask you, because in those conversations, we did talk about having a barrier in that section and upgrading a lot of pedestrian walkways and some access there along with that. So it wasn't just throwing down paint, we were going to do a separation and have some expanded pedestrian stuff as well there. So from my memory, I wanted to confirm that. Correct, and once this passes, we will get the design started for all of that. And yeah, definitely based on the meeting, I remember recalling some kind of barrier between the cars, travel lanes, and bike lanes. Okay, just to refresh my memory, thank you. So I make a motion to approve. Yes, and I'll wait to recognize the second and we got a question and we've also got some cards of citizens wanting to speak. Councilmember Davis. Sure, just real briefly to respond to the comment about our, our item a few weeks ago we had the opportunity to put in a bid on a piece of property on the corner on Oak Street, ostensibly that was to replace some of this parking increased general parking available in the area. My objection at that time to that purchase was, one, that the piece of property was overvalued, that we'd be paying too much for it, and two, that there was no plan for actually accomplishing the parking, there was no money identified, it's not in the bond package, that we would have ended up with a piece of property that we paid too much for that we didn't have a plan for how to pay for parking on it. So, my intention here again is just to voice my, my opinions, don't want to rock the boat too much, but I'd rather kind of go back to square one and start working with you and T on what I think is a better option. Okay, we've got some cards wishing to speak. So I'll call these in order. Susan Romer, if you'll come down state your name and address your time will begin. Hi, my name is Suzanne room rumor, you almost said it, rumor, and I live at 1700 Crescent. So I think it was June 2017 this same item, item A came before city council, and it was kind of put off to think about it more and so for two years we have thought about it more came up with some really great alternatives as far as replacing where the parking would be as someone who bikes around town a lot. I have concerns with parking protected in the designs I've seen for this space that we have. For one the the park cars are always too close to the bike lane, which creates a problem of during so a door open suddenly you're not expecting it, it can hurt people have gotten sliced open from things like that. And this is a downhill people on bikes are going to be going a little bit faster. So that's been my main concern with any parking protected in this specific scenario, it's there's just not the buffer space if there's the buffer space between the people on bikes and the park I just haven't seen the space. So based on that, I do prefer the option that's presented by staff as someone who bikes through the area. I prefer to be able to see cars I would prefer for them to be able to see me, provided that it's protected if it's just buffer that is not enough just paint is not enough. As an option. I like going through trees but I don't like meandering sidewalks very much I want to go where I'm going I'm not usually out for a stroll I'm trying to go somewhere. So the nice thing about making it on the street like staff has presented is that you do coax people onto the road and off of the sidewalk so I do ride a bike but I still don't like sharing sidewalk space with people on bikes because they're going a lot faster than me. Same thing on my bike I don't like to share it with cars because they're going faster than me and they could kill me so I do support cities, the staff spread what they've presented. After going to two years of meetings, I do feel like we've come to a good in between option for everybody. Thanks. Thank you. Our next speaker will be Garrett rumors that get that right. Yes. All right. Thank you. Just state your name and address and your time will begin. I'm Garrett rumor live at 1700 Crescent and I am a frequent cyclist around it. So we chose a chosen home actually because of his proximity to the things and then that we like to do and stuff as far as like the square or where we work and things like that. It's a very, very good way to get around town. And so we've been really involved in the in watching this this particular topic and just really wanted to applaud all the, the effort that's gone into bringing us to this, this current plan. There's been a lot of staff time, council involvement, traffic safety mobility, and I think even BNC touched it once. So, so I think think a lot of hands have been in it, and I think it's all shaken down to a very, very solid plan for considering the area that it's that it's in. So, I would like to endorse the motion for both of these two to approve. If I can do that and. And since the, the cycle track idea has been kind of pushed a couple times. The thing that we must like this whenever we we talk, talk about it and cycle tracks are, you know, good idea keeps you separated from both pedestrians and and cars, the, the problem with this particular implementation is it's just for two blocks and it's kind of varied. So like the designs that were presented, take you on like you're on the street for a long portion of Hickory, then all of a sudden you're up on the cycle track behind parked cars, then you get pushed into traffic go through a light, then you get back up on a cycle track after you clear some restaurants. It's just, it's not safe. And so I think the idea of cycle tracks in general in Denton should be should be looked at, but this particular implementation, I just don't see it being a solid plan. So to reiterate, I think that the plan that staff is presented is is solid in the way to go forward. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. Our last speaker as far as card is Clay Thurman. If you'll come down and state your name and address your time will begin. Clay Thurman 1524 Snyder Street. And I would like to ask you to keep faith with the people that develop the 2012 bike plan and to approve these options as are shown for you to piggyback on to some of the comments that Susan Garrett made. The question of during with a protected lane from cars is a very real and prospective thing to create injuries. Again, exiting from a protected lane back into traffic that's presenting a unexpected thing for motorists. And one of the things that motorists and bicyclists want is certainty and continuity of their travel. And when you divert cyclists off for only two blocks and suddenly reinsert them into the traffic, you are risking some injuries at that point. So I don't particularly like that. Also on the question of UNT. I think that's something that you could search on the side while still approving this. I do have some hesitation about that because you're going to be going into some heritage trees over there and some digging and some of the stuff could be disturbing the route zone. And I would certainly hate for the city to sacrifice those trees for that. And I don't think UNT would be willing to do that either. That is something that you could pursue on the side. Another thing is the city has already invested quite a bit of money through the contractor studies. And as I understand it, much of the money for this project has already been allocated. And it's mostly going to be paint and some bollards or whatever to delineate the lane and separate it from cars. This is, amongst all the things that have been presented to traffic safety, mobility, and the council at large, this is one of the most economically physical responsible options. To go off to UNT, assuming that we would be able to do that, we'd have to do some studies. Urban forestry would probably have to weigh in on that. So you're asking for an expenditure of more money. And I would like to see this plan go forward, as stated, and reserve those monies for other needs that Denton has. Thank you. Thank you. Those are the cards we have. Excuse me. Councilmember Briggs, so you made a motion to approve. We're going to take these one at a time. So to approve agenda item 4A, is that correct? Yes. Councilmember Meltzer. Yes. Thank you for reminding me that it was actually two years. I knew it was more than a year. And I hope that people remember how many times we were just at complete loggerheads trying to navigate between the cyclists in the community and the small business people in the Fry Street area. So the fact that people stuck with it and stayed engaged and got to a really breakthrough resolution that makes everybody pretty happy, I think it's testimony to the community, staff as well, but very much to the citizens involved. I happily second. All right, we have a motion and a second for agenda item 4A. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries five to two. We now will move on to agenda item 4B, which we had the presentation and discussion. So Chair would entertain action on agenda item 4B. Councilmember Briggs. Again, I will motion to approve because this option was put on there so that the bike lane could go into effect because I was not willing to remove the parking for the bike lane without finding the parking for the businesses elsewhere. And so this is a product of that. So I am happy to move approval of this. All right, Councilmember Davis, request to speak. Okay. I don't know how that happened. Okay. All right. Councilmember Meltzer. I second. Councilmember Ryan. Thank you, Mayor. The thing about this, it not only adds parking, but it also adds safety for those that are in the bike lane, whether it's the elevated bike lane or on the street because now no one can make a right-hand turn onto Avenue A and cut that biker off. So I will be voting in support of this item. Okay. We have a motion and a second for agenda item 4B. Let's vote, please. Motion carries 6-1. Moving on to agenda item 4E. Consider approval of a resolution of the City Council of the City of Denton superseding resolution 18-1377 regarding the Denton Handbook for Boards, Commissions and Council Committees to correct a prior clerical error in resolution 18-1377. Good evening. My name is Rosa Rios and I'm your city secretary. I'm here to present the item as far as the details. So resolution 18-1377 was adopted by the City Council on August 28, 2018. It was on the consent agenda. The vote for approval was 6 in favor with no nays and then Council Member Doefe was absent. So the way that the item was presented under the specific section, as you can see here, was to include certain areas that citizen task force ad hoc committees, some boards and commissions and committees were going to be exempt from having to follow. You can see here A, B, C and D. So that was the way that the resolution was presented to you as part of the item that was adopted. The item that was actually presented to the mayor for signature did not, as you can see here, did not include the bullet points A through D, which was in fact the clerical error at that point. Next you'll see kind of a comparison from the one, from the resolution that was adopted, which again contained the bullet points and the way that the method was signed. So we're presenting to you here the resolution that now clearly indicates the items A through D for adoption. And if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them. We've got a question. If you'll go back to the slide comparing the, yeah, side by side. So when you say adopted, so that means in our backup, and I guess you weren't necessarily here, but you've done the research or city attorney can help. So presented in the backup for council were these four items listed as provisions of the Henenberg that are not applicable. Was that also in like the draft resolution that was given to us in the backup? Yes. Yes, sir. All right. So then what happened was when it was prepared for signature, which you just don't pull out the one that was in the backup and it's a different preparation, then that's when it was inadvertently left out. Yes, sir. Okay. All right. Council member Armitter. So I don't remember seeing this in the backup for today. Was this in this with the side by side comparison? No. So the presentation was actually prepared because the item was pulled for individual consideration. Oh, okay. Yeah. We prepared the comparison. Yeah, so I had not really, anyway, this answered, I hadn't realized that there was just the letter A, the dangling A without all of that. Because you know what I was going, the reason why I had asked to have this pulled because I thought that this was, well, it is a policy change if we were to vote yes on this because we would be taking away something that is currently in our ordinance. And it's funny because I had not realized, again, that there was that dangling A until seeing this presentation. But it actually, it doesn't really change the way that I feel about this, you know, my concerns about this. And that is that if, you know, since ad hoc committees like, say, the bond committee and the bond committee task force, they're not, as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe this would be kind of a legal issue. But, you know, because they are, according to the Texas Open Meetings Act, they are, it's not a judicial body or, you know, legislative, it might be considered quasi-legislative or might not, I'm not sure. But it would seem to, I was in preparing for today, I was rereading the Texas Open Meetings Act, and there is a section that says that, you know, if you're the kind of committee that where traditionally council or whoever the legislative body is in a municipality will, and this is the attorney general's term, you know, that rubber stamp tends to approve of these measures recommended by an advisory committee. Councilmember, Councilmember Armentuer. Yeah. The purpose of this item was to correct an error that occurred back in August with the right document that this council should adopt, which was already adopted and signed by the mayor. You're starting to go into examples and talking about an advisory committee and what's in the Texas Open Meetings Act. That is not within the scope of the item that is here before there is a council to adopt. Thank you. So isn't it related, though, because what I was about to say is I, if this is a mistake, I see it as a happy mistake, because I think that it would be a good idea for our ad hoc committees to be covered under under TOMA. At the time, I hadn't realized that bond committees are ad hoc committees. So I like this. I like this mistake. I think we should be, you know, have our bond committee accountable to Texas Open Meetings Act. So I will be voting against this. Councilmember Meltzer. If I'm remembering this right, this came out of a discussion to apply TOMA to ad hoc committees. So I find this a little confusing. I remember that we had that conversation very explicitly, frankly, because at the time I argued against it. I thought it was cumbersome. But the vote was to apply TOMA and, you know, that everyone would have to abide by those rules. So is this a totally different item, or how would it be that that was the vote, but that we would say that the penalties and remedies for TOMA violations would not be applicable in the handbook? It strikes me that if there's an error on the face of it, the word "not" would be the error. Is this a different item? No, no, it is the same item. What the Council decided upon at the consensus of Council was that only the procedural rules for TOMA would apply, which would mean, you know, posting notice of the meeting in advance, 72 hours in advance, having captions. That's, you know, that's what this Council wanted to apply, because these boards are not decision-making bodies. And then there's a strong argument that the penalties and remedies provision do not apply to them. And that's why it was the little letter "D" was actually added to this to exclude them from that. Okay. So just to restate and make sure I understand, the operating rules of TOMA still apply to all that committee? Yes, sir. The penalties don't? Yes, sir. And therefore that portion of the handbook, that satisfies me. Thank you. Okay. Anyone else? I see no other Councilmembers wishing to speak. I've got a blue card. Queen Montgomery, come down and state your name and address. Your time will begin. Good evening. I'm Queen Janata Montgomery. I was wanting clarity as well. I wasn't sure what it meant in terms of when I looked at what was on the agenda for today, if you guys were going to be making sure that the committees were with TOMA. I have an email here that was -- I'm sure you guys are going to find it confusing, because I did. And I know that maybe others did as well, but it was addressed to us. The City of Denton is excited you have chosen to serve as a member of the Special Citizens Bond Advisory Committee members and looks forward to working with you during the upcoming months. Please note that this committee, it's S-C-B-A-C, but anyway, is considered an ad hoc committee, and as such, there is no requirement for members to attend any city or state mandated training. It is important to remember that while as a member you are not subject to penalties under the Texas Open Meetings Act, you are expected to comply with and have a general understanding of the provisions outlined in the act. Additionally, it is highly encouraged that all S-C-B-A-C members become familiar with TOMA via the training video provided by the Texas Attorney General's Office webpage at what the link was. Should you choose to take the training, a certificate will be issued upon completion. You are welcome to file a copy of the certificate with the city secretary's office by submitting in person or sending via email. And to me, I'm sure you can see how confusing because one minute you want us to comply, what it says at the first part of it was saying that you don't think that if we choose to comply we can, and then in the middle it says but it's encouraged that you do do the TOMA, and I'm not sure how you expect us to understand what you want as a council because according to TOMA, they don't care if you've been appointed or if you're an elected official, they want you to adhere to the Open Meetings Act because they have jurisdiction over us because we're here in the state of Texas. That's all. I'm just confused about what y'all want from us. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. Councilmember Marmotry, you have a request to speak, or is that just held over? That was from my old request to speak, but if I could just, I didn't know if there were any blue cards though. No, no, it's all the cards, yes. Yeah, so I just wanted to kind of finish what I was saying before, and I'll just read this from the attorney general TOMA guide. It says an advisory committee that does not control or supervise public business or policy is not subject to the Act, et cetera, et cetera. However, if a government body that has established an advisory committee routinely adopts or rubber stamps the advisory committee's recommendations, the committee probably will be considered to be a governmental body subject to the Act. Thus, the fact that a committee is called an advisory committee does not necessarily mean it's exempted from the Act. And this is something that I actually, I didn't know that, but in researching this issue for today, I was looking that up and came across that. That's on page 14 of the attorney general's guide. So again, you know, it would seem to me that this might be kind of a happy accident where we're kind of protecting ourselves as a city and protecting the public trust by making sure, and those of you in the public might not be aware, but the Texas Open Meetings Act, it requires that all meetings be posted 72 hours in advance, publicly posted. And there are a number of requirements that come with that. It's about transparency. So I don't see why we don't just leave it in, especially, you know, given this provision that it could ultimately be kind of covered under the Act according to state law. That surprised me to find that out. Okay. Councilmember Meltzer, did you withdraw your request? Oh, okay. I'll tell you why I put it up and why I drew it back. I was going to ask for a little guidance, but I found the answer. Just where does it actually say that the procedural requirements of TOMA still apply? And that is in the third whereas of the resolution. Okay. All right. Councilmember, Mayor Pro Tem Hudspeth. Thank you. Yeah. No, I just, I'm troubled by a request to circumvent the process of correcting a clerical error. And that's troubling to me. If a member wants to go back through the process, rework that, that's one thing. But to advocate for circumventing the process by an opportunity, i.e., a clerical error, that's concerning. But furthermore, I think this body is, if, I'll give an example of how non-rubber stamp we are. We had a committee that recommended Andy's, the front of Andy's bar be repainted 7-0, and this body said it can stay. So we're nowhere near, far, far, far away from a rubber stamp. So I just don't, even if the language was applicable, which I disagree with, I don't think this is the method to correct that. Councilmember Briggs. Yeah. So the process for the posted agenda and the transparency, that applies. It's just that, say, three or four of the members right are in a room and they're talking, is that about something they, that is what is allowed? If the city attorney could explain that and also kind of talk to the speaker's comments or get some information and get that settled up. Because for me, I remember this conversation and it was, we were pretty adamant about wanting, you know, the rules to apply. Yes. But, so the penalties do not. But the rules apply for us as the governmental body for posting the agenda, making sure that that's out and that the meetings are open. Correct? Exactly. And the general rule, and even what the entry or the intro that was read by Councilmember Armentor, that generally, you know, the TOMA doesn't apply to an advisory committee, and especially here with just a limited purpose committee that will basically meet for a couple of months. And then, however, the, what this council has done over the years, they've had an informal policy that these boards and commissions, or these limited committees, should be following at least the operational or the procedural portions or requirements under TOMA in the interest of transparency to the public, so the public would know what they're doing. And that's all it is, but, you know, so, but, you know, that's where the council drew the line that we could do that because the actual penalty provisions are enforced by the district attorney's office when somebody violates the provisions or an actual member of the public in a civil suit. Those, the council decided not to include those as part of this requirement. All right. Councilmember Ryan. Move approval of Item 4E. Councilmember Davis. I second approval. We have a motion and a second for agenda item, I believe it's 4E. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries six to one. We're going to go through the next agenda item, H, and then we'll take a little five minute break. Agenda item 4H is considered adoption of an ordinance of the City of Denton and Texas Home Rule Municipal Corporation authorizing the city manager to execute a contract with last chance ready mix. Hello, Lori Huell, purchasing manager. Okay, so we put out an invitation for bid on May 10th to 1,013 suppliers and for spoils disposal. We advertise it on our city website and then we also put it in the local newspaper. We received one bid. The bid did request that the disposal site be required to be located in Denton County due to the hauling time and cost. Due to this being an invitation for bid, we have to award to the lowest price for each of the items. Since we received one bid from last chance ready mix, we're asking for approval to execute a contract with them. All right. Councilmember Meltzer. Can you describe the changes that are coming in the bidding process that would be different from what occurred, you know, with this bid? Yeah, we're going to electronic bidding through ion wave and the main changes are is it will be sent out electronically instead of through emails and then so we can track better how many people, how many vendors are actually viewing it because it gets sent to a lot of vendors but not all of them are viewing it. So we can be able to present to you guys a better idea of who's actually seeing it and instead of it just looking like 1,013 suppliers. So in that world, would we conceivably follow up with some suppliers to inquire why they didn't bid or, you know, try to -- or do we think there really only was one company that could conceivably -- I mean, apparently not, right, otherwise we wouldn't have sent out so many requests so we must have thought there were others that might have bid. The department would be able to answer that question on whether there might be other vendors out there that could do it. In the future we could possibly -- because right now with it being 1,013 vendors and we're not sure which vendors actually do this business, we can't reach out to all of them but with ion wave we'll be able to see who viewed it and we can maybe reach out to those vendors and ask, like, you viewed this, why did you not bid on it? Is this a very -- first of all, let me point out, this is $3.6 million over three years. Is this a very time sensitive item in comparison to the timing of going to the new bidding process? Yes. Yeah, they currently are not able to deliver the spoils to our landfill anymore so they are currently without a place to dispose. And when do we think the new electronic bidding process that would give us more insight so we wouldn't have one bid on $3.6 million? We started it in June. So this bid went out in May so, yeah. But I'm saying how soon might we be in the new bidding process? We started electronically bidding through ion wave. Yes. I'm not understanding. I thought we were not there yet. They implemented the new bidding process last month. This bid went out a month before. So if you wanted to turn around tomorrow and use it, you could because it's in place. Yeah, it's needed. Right. That's right. Okay. Thank you. Councilmember Briggs? So I think part of your question was is it time sensitive because it's a three-year contract and it's for quite a bit of money. So is it -- if we postponed it or limited the contract, I mean, is it to less than three years, would that affect the -- is that something we could do? Hello. Cassie Ogden, director of procurement. We would not be able to limit it just based on how the bid was issued. We estimate annual quantities and that's what our bidders bid on. If we substantially change the way that it was solicited, we have to go back out and re-bid. So if we change anything in the contract at this point, we would need to go issue a new bid. Okay. Thank you. Quick question. Did this bid prior to last chance? Who had this contract or did we have a contract prior to last chance? I believe last chance was our previous vendor. Any idea -- do you remember what the last contract amount was? I do not know that off the top of my head. They were the same ones? Yes. Okay. Okay. Don't -- turn my mic off. Don't see any cards on this. Councilmember Ryan? Move approval of item 4H. Mayor Pro Tem? Second. Okay. We have a motion and a second for 4H. Let's vote on the board, please. Has somebody not voted? Has everybody voted? To abstain. I'm not sure. What do you mean abstain? Does not vote. Mr. City Attorney, I need to understand what factors are involved in that. I'm not understanding why you would not want to vote. Is there a reason, particular reason? Do you have a conflict of interest? No. I just -- so I have to vote I can't abstain? I think if you follow that one of your duties as a councilmember, and the same for everyone else, is to actually, when items come before you, to actually participate in the action. Okay. It says I may abstain absent, so there's an abstention option. Usually the abstention option is for somebody who has a conflict of interest or wasn't here or can't attend the meeting. Okay. Yes, ma'am. Okay. Motion carries 5 to 2. All right. Let's take about a 5 or 10 minute break, please. We'll come back to items S and U of agenda item 4. Welcome back to this meeting of the Denton City Council on July the 16th, 2019. It's about 8.04 p.m. We're moving down through our consent agenda items that were pulled, so we are taking them as items for individual consideration. We've got two left. Agenda item S, which is consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton, a Texas home rural municipal corporation, authorizing the city manager to execute contract with Wardzilla North America for the supply of parts and service for the electric generating equipment at the Denton Energy Center. Good evening, Mr. Mayor, council, Jason Brown, plant manager, Denton Energy Center. I want to thank you in advance for allowing me the time to address any questions that council may have. Could you maybe pull that mic just a little closer? There you go. Yes, just so everybody can hear you. Thank you, Jason. Okay, questions? Councilmember Briggs, I believe you pulled this? Yeah, I did, and I was also counting on having the DME financial session and the work session because we were going to talk about the debt pro forma as well, which kind of goes hand in hand with some of my questions here. So I was trying to pull that up. So I did have that pulled. I wanted to know, I guess I could go ahead and start asking questions while I try to look for that pro forma. So this is a two-year time, and so do we have to do this every two years? Is this something that is going to be continuous every two years? So the two-year aspect of this, Ms. Briggs, is the master service agreement. It is basically putting parts, terms, and conditions and service terms and conditions all in one. So to answer your question, yes, ma'am, we would. Ideally, we would like it to be longer. I did not lengthen the time of it just because eventually we won't have to purchase and perform service all with Wardzilla. Okay, so on that summit, I think I saw lots of sensors and converters, and there was a lot of those, and so is that a part that frequently goes out? Both frequently, not really frequently go out, but maintenance intervals. So maintenance intervals and then depleting the stock and then having four issues. And so this is barely a year old. Are these parts not warranted or some of it? No, the warranty is no longer on the original contract. So everything that we have parts-based now, failure would be City of Denton's responsibility. Okay, and so this was for $287,000? Yes, ma'am. And that includes someone on the crew, a tech engineer, right, and a superintendent? No, well, not really. So there's, within that agreement, there is the standard labor rates. This service agreement is solely for the agreement of terms and conditions for the parts in the service. So it's basically standardizing the timeframe, the payment timeframes, setting the insurance requirements, and setting warranty durations on the parts that we would purchase while under this contract. The contract itself has a zero dollar value for the City of Denton unless we put a PO in for either parts or services. And then these are the terms and conditions for that PO. Okay, so on our budget, and this may not be something that you can answer, maybe the city manager, it's $22,965,000 for the Dent Energy Center expenses. So is this part of an operations expense that's already in that budget that we've accounted for? Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. All right. Thank you. So I remember when the gas plant was built, all these parts were coming over in boats from Finland, and I forget exactly the route, but it was complicated. Is this, you know, what percentage of this cost is the parts and what is the shipment? And I don't know how big, how physically big all these parts are, but is it a much simpler mode of shipping? Or is this all for the parts plus the shipping? Parts plus shipping. No, sorry, not shipping. Zero shipping in that. Okay, so free shipping? Yeah, no. No, shipping will be added at the end of it. The parts will either come from camp in Netherlands or from Florida or New Orleans, depending on availability. Two of those are much closer than the other ones. Yeah, for sure. And whenever we do place an order, so you see a lot of those parts will have longer lead times, those are camping items. Most of the items that have the short lead times are either flown over from camp in or they're from Florida or New Orleans. Thanks. Councilmember Briggs. So just a question back to the staff part of it, because I know that the DEC has highly trained staff that know their stuff over there. And so is there a reason why we have to have not just the parts, we have to have the labor included in the contract? That's kind of what I'm surprised about. Yeah, no, you're exactly correct. So we do, we have highly trained staff, the best that I've seen at a power plant of a reciprocating style. There are systems that we cannot get into. So the voice system, all control systems, we can't get into. We can't troubleshoot from them. So the master service agreement and the contract based out of this, the services is for those instances when we need help troubleshooting and can't do it physically on site, need to go into the control system. The voice system, the UNIX system, the Y system, all of those we do not have access to. Even though it's our facility. That is correct. Okay. Yeah, so pretty much all of your major equipment suppliers, GE, Rolls-Royce, there's certain aspects that you can't get into. You can't get in there, one, to get their logic and reverse engineer it and sell it. It's proprietary. Things like that, it's proprietary. That's exactly correct. I don't know where that came from. Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you. Yes, ma'am. Okay, Councilmember Ryan? With approval of item 4S. Mayor Pro Tem? Second. Let's vote, please. Oh, I'm sorry. Hold on. We got a speaker. Let's hold on. Jennifer Lane? Jennifer Lane here? Yeah, come on down. That was a late card entry, so forgive them. My name is Jennifer Lane. I live at 1526 Willowwood Street. And unless you know that items are going to be pulled from the consent agenda, you may not be ready to fill out a card. And I didn't know. Neither did I know that the bicycle plan was going to be pulled, and I'm very relieved to see that you passed it. Because although for some of you, this may feel like two years of intensive work, and for others, seven years of intensive work. For yet others, it's been 10 years experience waiting and waiting and waiting for safety to be improved in that area. I'm here to speak about the Wartsilla purchase because I'm surprised to see it. Maybe you are not. Maybe even those who have been asking questions are not as surprised as I am. But the dollar signs already on that project are so high that to see any more added to it is disturbing to me, disturbing that it wasn't factored in in the past when decisions were made to approve it. That's water over the dam now, but I would ask that you all be very, very careful in what you vote in favor of with respect to Wartsilla, to the deck, to the gas plant idea period, and retain your openness to looking for the sustainable alternatives that everyone was talking about and fighting so hard for in 2015. We now know that DME wanted this more than even the council and definitely more than the population. So that has changed. I appreciate that effort that you guys have made that change. Keep doing so, please. Watch the dollars. We need them for other things. Thank you. Councilmember Armitage. Oh, Councilmember Briggs, you're still up. Are you? I have another question. I'll go with Councilmember Armitage. Councilmember Armitage, did you have a question for the speaker? Well, just kind of more of a comment that, you know, I would encourage you and thank you for speaking and I encourage you to look at, I forget, I think it was item D in today's agenda that we didn't get around to discussing that Councilmember Briggs was mentioning. Really, really interesting. It's going to be, will it come up at the next meeting and what date is that? Two weeks from now. The 23rd. So, yeah, the 23rd. Oh, next week. Yeah, really, you'll be interested, you know, to look at the revenue and to look at the projections and it'll be interesting. This should be an interesting discussion. Thank you very much. And if there is some way that it can be possible to know about things being pulled off of the agenda in time to get cards in, I certainly would have been happy to speak at greater length about the bike plan having first made the acquaintance of Council through being hit by a car on my bicycle. Thank you. Councilmember Briggs? So I'm curious, is there, so I guess since it's Wartzilla, this is the only supply vendor, I mean, it's the only, our only option. Is that basically what I'm hearing? With the parts that are on that quote, yes, ma'am. So we sent out to five different vendors. We got two responses back other than Wartzilla with referencing franchise restrictions, sending us back to Wartzilla. Okay. So with the emission system that's available here in the U.S., there's two makers. One's Wartzilla. The other one is another company. So basically, yeah, we're stuck with that. Okay. Well, thank you for coming and waiting and doing a presentation and answering the questions that I had. I just, we've already invested so much money already. And so just to see a reoccurring contract is a little concerning. But thank you and thank you for what you do out there. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Councilmember Mills, sir? Yeah, I just want to share with the public that while clearly not everybody can come during the day, even if an item isn't going to be pulled off the consent agenda, you can still come and speak on consent agenda items at the beginning of the work session. Thank you. All right. We have a -- let's just do it over. Councilmember Ryan? Move approval of item 4S. Mayor Pro Tem? Second. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries 5 to 2. We'll move on to our agenda item 4U, consider adoption of a resolution of the City of Denton, Texas, establishing a use of city facilities for inclement weather policy reference number 500.07, declaring an effective date. Are we going to have a presentation? We had a two-hour meeting today in work session. You're just going to go over sort of the basics of the policy? I don't have another presentation for you just based on the discussion and the direction that I was given from this morning. You do have in front of you a revised policy that does include the language on the use of the civic -- I'm sorry, the senior center and the American Legion Hall, specifically reinforcing that those two buildings are for use for individuals over the age of 50. That was the one change that the consensus was from the work session this afternoon. Do we have some cards? Councilmember Briggs? I'll wait until after people speak. Okay, great. Thank you. All right, 4 -- let me make sure I've got all the cards because -- okay. All right, just as a reminder, if someone filled out a white card, you certainly can indicate support or opposition, but the white card typically signifies that you do not wish to speak. So if I call your name, just so if there was a misunderstanding, if I call your name and you wish to speak, you're certainly welcome to come back down to speak. Otherwise, I'll just call your name indicating your support or opposition. So we're going to start with the blue cards first. Belinda McBee? Is Belinda here? She had to leave. Okay. Kevin Sample, come down, state your name and address, and your time will begin. Kevin Sample, 2007 Chiefs of the Lane. I just want to reiterate that that's a place that's needed, and if it's decided all to take it away, if we can come to some kind of compromise to have another place instead of going there just until the time that Monsignor King is open for those seven nights, maybe another place that's more adequate, you know, just in inclement weather when it's, like you said, if it's 99 degrees or 35 degrees, somewhere else other than on the street. That's the whole thing there. So no one can -- when you're out on the street, there's a whole lot of other factors that come in. If you're in a place where you're not supposed to be, you can get criminally trespassed, and that opens up a whole lot of other things. So just prevent things from happening, from people getting hurt, fights, or anything like that, just to have a safe place where they can go in inclement weather. When it's cold, they can stay warm. When it's hot, they can stay cool. You know, just the basic thing that everybody's warning, you know, just to stay cool and just to stay warm and to feel safe, have a safe place to go. And if those -- and if that place is taken away, can we come to some kind of agreement that, hey, only on inclement weather today, this place can be used? Because a lot of times when it's inclement weather, Monsignor King is not available because he doesn't have the volunteers to get it open. And it's the only other place to go is Salvation Army. Salvation Army can't house over 100 or 200 people at a night. And whoever doesn't get in, they're left out just to walk around, because if you stand in place too long, it's laudering. You know what I mean? So you're constantly moving all night long, all night long. I know because for seven months I was there, I had to do it. And I just don't want anyone else to have to just feel that way about, man, what am I going to do? I don't have any other place to go. That's a safe place. You know, again, I was in the service. And being homeless is scary. You know, it's a scary, it's a humbling experience, you. It's hard to put in words, but you know, I'm here now because I got help. And my whole aspect is just to help, you know, just to help someone else to feel safe, you know, in a time where they feel the lowest in their lives. So I ask that if that place is taken away, is there some kind of compromise that we can have that you can't go here, but you can go here only on inclement weather nights? That's what I ask. Okay. So I've got some requests to speak. Is there a question for the speaker for one of these requests to speak? Okay, Councilmember Armitage, yours for the speaker. Okay, sure, go ahead. Thank you for speaking, Kevin. You know, I agree with you 100%. I was wondering, you know, since this, I mean, you sat in the work session and you heard about the aspect of this policy that affects Bridging Hope Ministries and, you know, and their opportunity to be able to use the Civic Center in inclement weather. And I was wondering if you could speak to, because I know that you are intimately familiar with them, if you could kind of speak to how the role that they play for people experiencing homelessness in Denton. Okay. On Sundays afternoon at 3 o'clock, Bridging Hope comes to Cracker Park. When they come, you know, it's all volunteer. They feed us. If they have clothes, they make sure that, hey, you know, we have this for you. And it's all free of charge. And a lot of times when it was cold a couple of times, you know, I guess either they didn't know or a lapse of judgment that the Civic Center wasn't, you know, used because they didn't know. And I would hope that going forward that if something can be worked out, just for two hours, again, I invite every last one of y'all to come, just to come and see exactly what they do, you know, the lives that they're touching, you know, the handshake or the hugs they give or just a pat on the back and say, hey, you know, we're still proud of you in spite of everything, you know, and down that it's hot, you know, we're just in July. We still got August, you know what I mean, that if it gets too hot that they can call and say, hey, you know, it's just a little bit too warm. Is it all right for us to go in for two hours? Did that be available to them? You know, I know it can't be used every week or whatever, but if it can just be available to them because they're really doing some things, they help me, you know what I mean. But just when I wanted to give up, you know, it was somebody there to say, hey, we got you. And not only for me, but for some of the other people too. And so if we could just make that available to them, and I'm pretty sure that if it's a monetary thing, you know, I'll do everything I can to raise the money, you know, for them to be able to use it for those two hours, you know, on Sunday when it's 99 degrees and you want to eat, you know, got somewhere cool and, you know, just make you feel like a human being. That's the human aspect of it. Okay. Any other questions for this speaker? Councilmember Meltzer, I saw you chime in. Is it -- okay. When you spoke earlier about holding off until another place can be identified until Monsignor King is expanded to seven days or seven nights, you're referring to the police station issue? Okay. Just want to make sure it's tracked again. We have to go into where they say they open from the business hours, 8 to 5. Like most of the fire departments from 8 to 5, what do you do after 5 when you're thirsty or you need to use the bathroom or it's still 90 degrees outside? Where do we go? Because if it's only business hours, you only got those 8 hours there, you know what I mean? And then after 5 o'clock, what do we do? Then it goes back to the trespass and then you walk on the street and then you get a ticket for a lottery and you can't be in the park after a certain time, you know what I mean? So all those things factor, but if it's just a place where they can say, okay, if it's in climate weather, you can go here, you know, this is where you can go and no one can criminally trespass you from this place. You know, you can get some water or you can rest or you can do whatever because to trot or to walk 12 hours straight, you know, and I'm only speaking from experience. Everything I'm saying is from the things that I've had to endure for 7 months and everything like that. It's hard to walk all night long to be constantly moving. Okay. Any other questions for the speaker? Seeing none, thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. The next speaker is Sam Alphonse. Alphonse? I apologize if I got that incorrect. If you'll state your name and address, your time will begin. Okay. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Alphonse. My address is 326 Mill Street, visually impaired, AKA legally blind. I'm here to -- we need the climate weather stations because last year I almost died because I'm diabetic, too. My pressure was 700, and if it wasn't for me being in the police station, I would have been gone. I was gone in a coma. And then after that, my pressure went to 600 another time, and then 500, I think, across the street to the police depot -- I mean, the DCTA station. I've been homeless for almost two years. It's been a struggle. I wasn't always blind. This happened in January of this year. And it's very hard coming from somebody that was working and was sighted, to be unsighted and to be in this situation is a very humbling experience. And imagine going to work and don't have a place to lay your head, and you have to take a shower because hygiene can still keep a job and still keep you sanity. I challenge anyone of y'all to try this for a month. Put away your phone. No Wi-Fi. Nothing to try to see if you can survive without a car. I challenge everybody in this room. It's very difficult. It's not easy. And the only thing you've got, people are trying to basically ostracize you. You're coming from a taxpayer, a voter, and then to be -- what's that term? Invisible people. Like I said, it's needed. Because you have people with medical conditions that's out there. I was blessed to have a house now. But I felt it was my duty to speak out for those that's not here that couldn't speak. And we need it. Because if not, a lot of the resources for the EMTs and stuff like that, because a lot of people have medical conditions, is going to soar. And it's going to cost more money. And then the court system is going to be clogged up, too, for simple crimes like CT. It's going to delay a lot of things. And it's going to hinder. It's going to get more expensive. I mean, we had people die last year in the woods because they froze to death. Because people take for granted the rare fact that you get to put a key in a door and you have a warm place to stay. And those people didn't have a warm place to stay. They had a tent or a sleeping bag. Try doing that in inclement weather. You've got to worry about snakes, water walkingsons. I guess that's it. I'm done. Well, I think we might have a couple of questions for you. Anybody that's got a request to speak, have a question for the speaker? Okay. So we're going to go with Councilmember Briggs, and then we'll go with Councilmember Armitage. Thank you for coming to speak to us tonight. I have a question for you because the temperatures in this policy are 32 degrees and 103 degrees. And for me, I have other issues with this policy, but those are also one. I think 32 is too cold because by that time you're already freezing. And 103 is pretty hot because that way you're overheating. So I'm just wondering if you could speak to when you would seek refuge at what temperatures? It's funny you say that. Today was supposed to be 103, hypothetically, but with the heating next to 108. Imagine being out here with asthma, as well as being sighted. And diabetes. Thank you. Councilmember Armitage? So, anyway, thanks for coming out and speaking. And I'm trying to kind of wrap my mind around, almost to pinch myself, hearing what you're asking for. And that is as far as, you know, from the city government, an opportunity for people to be allowed to have a place where they can legally rest that is cool in the winter, cool in the summer, and warm in the winter where they won't get arrested. Is that right? Yes, because Mount Sinai King is not open seven days a week, like Salvation Army. And once Salvation Army is not open, people have to find other means. Or find a shelter the best they can. It needs to be open. I mean, if you're going to take the incoming weather thing, you have to put something in place to compensate it, per se. And can you -- thank you. Can you speak about -- and I don't know -- we haven't talked about -- I don't know if you've ever been criminally trespassed before or back when you were homeless. But I know you know, at least know people who have. Can you speak about that? Or they call it getting CT'd and what that's like for somebody experiencing homelessness to get CT'd for being on public property just because you have nowhere else to go? Well, CT'd is a big thing in Denton. I mean, even on the square, they'll let you drink alcohol there. But as soon as you step off the square, public intoxication. But another thing about CT'd is UNT owns a lot of real estate in Denton. And if you get CT'd on their properties, it's like nowhere you could go. Me personally, I've never gotten CT'd because that's one thing you don't want to do is to break the law in Denton. That's one of the things I noticed when I first came to this county. And then the bail bondmen and jails and stuff like that, that let me know it's no joke out here. You don't want to get in the system in Denton. It's hard to get out. I have a joke in my head about the court, the courthouse. The courthouse only takes deposits, not withdrawals. Any other questions for the speaker, Councilmember Mitchell? Okay. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. So I've got three cards. Matteo Grunatos, 1201 Paco Trail in support. Angelica Frager, 1201 Paco Trail, Denton support. And then Emily Thigingen, 411 Panhandle B, Denton in support. Those are all the cards I have. Councilmember Meltzer? Yeah, I made the suggestion in the work session, and I don't know if it was felt that it's something we would do or not. But the suggestion that we would quickly reconvene the emergency shelter task force specifically to generate alternatives for council to consider between now and Monsignor King potentially going to seven nights. So if, in fact, that can happen, I move that we postpone this item until the event's certain of council being able to consider those options. Okay. So, Mr. City Attorney, we've got several -- we've got two other requests to speak. We have a motion. No, it's okay. We have a motion to postpone. Do I need to call for a second first before I allow those others to speak? Yes. Because the motion to postpone -- is that correct? Yes. All right. So if we could clear the request to speak board, that would be wonderful. And so I'll know who's speaking on what. So we have a motion to postpone. Councilmember Briggs? I will second the motion to postpone. So we need that. I -- is this time for discussion on that, or are we just going to take that vote and then go? This motion to postpone does allow discussion or debate to begin. Okay. Okay. Because I appreciate everybody being patient and waiting. This is a -- it's a really important issue. It was a very hard day for me personally to be on this council. I'm going to get kind of emotional. We just kind of forget how lucky we are every day. And there's part of this ordinance that puts restrictions on nonprofits that can't afford them that step up and take care of our community. And if this passes, they -- if something were to happen with implement weather, the city would not be able to step in and help them feed over 100 people on Sunday. And so I have a real issue with that because I think that if we have a building and we have it available, that we should -- we should be able to help out when we can for situations like that. So I'm actually in favor of postponing this because I feel like we could work on this a little bit better. We could work on the temperatures a little bit and we could find another place besides the police station if we're closing that one. You heard the gentleman, he sucked refuge in that station and it saved his life. So I would -- that's why I second it to motion. >> Councilmember Romer. >> Same. I'm going to be voting yes to this motion. It's an excellent motion. I'm so happy that we have -- it looks like we are going to be having Monsignor King helping to fund them to be open seven nights a week. Starting at some indefinite point next year. But until that happens, people are going to be on the street. And they're -- you know, when you're experiencing homelessness, your existence is pretty much criminalized. When -- if you can't even be on public property resting and everybody has to rest at some point. So for all those reasons, councilmember Briggs said, including all of the good that bridging hope ministries does, just to feed people with -- I mean, it's basically potluck. Everybody brings stuff. They feed people. They clothe people. It's kind of like an outdoor -- our daily bread, outdoor community center. I invite everybody to -- people should come on Sundays, every Sunday at Quaker Town Park. It really -- you'll be instantly welcomed. Everybody is treated equally there. It's not condescending at all. So it's just so little what people are asking for, just the right to legally exist. And if we can hold on for a little bit, I implore my colleagues to just to look in their hearts and delay this just for a little bit, just until Monsignor King can be open seven nights a week. Councilmember Davis. I just want to be really clear about what we're talking about. First, we're talking about this motion, postponing this item, and this item is not saying that something that was open previously is closing. This item is saying that we are clarifying when our communications plan on telling folks about when our facilities are available, facilities like the library, facilities like the civic center, facilities like some of our other open all the time facilities, there's nothing in the policy that we talked about for two hours this morning and that we're still talking about this evening that takes away something that was already on the table. So it's a little disingenuous to cast this as a vote for saying that someone does not have a right to exist or a safe place to sleep or anything like that. The second part of this policy, and the reason why I am in favor of voting on it tonight and putting it in place, the second part of this policy is establishing rules and guidelines for events and organizations that normally happen outside that when inclement weather comes in, whether it's hot, cold, thunderstorms, freezing rain, that they have a place to go. Usually we're talking about the civic center and we're usually talking about two organizations, the community market and Bridging Hope. And there's been some implication today that if we establish a policy for this, instead of just ad hoc opening our doors every single time it rains, if we establish a policy, we are somehow signing the death warrant of these organizations. I have been on the phone and I've been in text communication with the leadership of Bridging Hope. I've made a personal commitment to making sure that ministry does not end simply because the city chooses to establish rules for the way that we do business. I've been talking with staff about how we can help them meet insurance requirements. I don't know the status of my contingency funds at this point because I took office in the middle of a fiscal year, but I know we re-up the next fiscal year. I'd like to, on the next available agenda item if I have the funds, commit $800 to Bridging Hope. That's the fee that they would have to pay up front to use the civic center during inclement weather. And then the council in the intervening weeks would take a vote to reimburse that money to them. So my intention there would be able to float them the fee, it's about $750, that we would then reimburse them back. So the implication that this is shutting somebody down or telling someone they don't have the right to exist or the right to be safe, that's simply disingenuous. It's not what the policy is about. I intend to vote to move forward with the policy and to vote for the policy. Okay, Mayor Pro Tem? Thank you. This is a discussion on the motion to postpone. That's right. Yes, okay. And much the same. I will be voting against this motion to postpone because we do need rules in place. And it has been, the characterization of it is less than 100% clear. The police station is open from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. The police chief told us that today. After 8, the rec centers are open until 9. You can go in from the weather at any temperature. It can be 60 degrees and breezy, and you can go into the library. You can use, so all those facilities, and that's not even, the list of, I was on a walk with my family and we went into the planning department. It's a human resources building. So there's, it doesn't, this policy doesn't even cover all the city buildings. Every city building is public and available. And so, again, just wanted to be clear for those looking and understanding that this is not what it's made up to be. And the hours are exhaustive. And in addition to the police station, even if it's not available, the police take the individuals to the Salvation Army or help them find accommodations that are more comfortable. So it is absolutely polar opposite than what it's kind of been framed to be. And staffs work hard to try to meet some other things. And it meets my primary concern, and I'll share with you, the senior centers are for seniors. And this, without some changes, this would have allowed someone that is younger than 50, and so you have some senior abuse issues that I was concerned about, and this addresses those. And I appreciate my peers and staff for doing those things, because I think we need to protect all our citizens. And we had a case here in Denton where someone was abused financially. And so I think it's important to keep those, draw those bright lines where existing facilities are to not disrupt those things. And then specifically with the park, I think it's important to note the civic center does not have to be open. There's a porch that protects them from the rain or those type things. So you may have some temperature concerns, but one of the emails we received was talking about rain and eating in the rain, and that's just not the case, because there's a covered area that's available for anyone. And so there's a number of those, and it's large. And so I don't diminish their mission, but I also hold them in the same regard as every other nonprofit that's doing great work in the city. And we can't, as much as you want to, you can't take everyone's tax dollars and use them differently. I mean, I think we have a duty to treat everyone the same and not prioritize certain issues. So for that reason, I'm going to vote against postponing it because that's our job to make tough decisions, move things forward. And I just think it's been framed a little. The framing was a little skewed this evening. Councilmember Ryan. Thank you, Mayor. I'm in complete agreement with my colleagues on the far end of the dais. I agree with what they said. I just want to reiterate that when we talk about the temperatures, the 32 and the 100 degrees is not when we open the doors. The 32 and the 100 degrees are when we send out notice so that we get these people so that they understand that here's a place to go to if they didn't know before, that these doors -- there's no change in the timing of when the doors are open on these facilities, with the exception of the police department, which is a true safety issue for our police department because we have civilian employees that are unarmed in there overnight. There are no police officers there. They're out on the streets, so they have to dial 911 to get someone to come and protect them, just as any one of us would have to do if somebody tried to enter our home. And I lock my door at night, so I think it's all right for the police department to do the same to protect their civilian employees. Councilmember Meltzer. Yeah, I gave direction in support of the chief's recommendation to not have people who aren't there in police business at, you know, at off hours. But it's not the case that this isn't taking something away. I mean, there are people today who are there, and that's creating other issues. But there's a change. Otherwise, you wouldn't even be having that portion of this item. So, you know, I'm just acknowledging the fact that it is a change. I think we heard pretty eloquent testimony about the impact of what that might be. I still intend to support the motion when it comes back. I'm just saying, why don't we have a comprehensive solution instead of a half solution? So I also want to correct the language on the screens in front of us. It's not a motion to continue to date certain. It's a motion to postpone to an event certain. All right. Councilmember Briggs. Okay. Suffice it to say we had about a two and a half hour meeting today on this issue. And we had the police chief -- I'm sad -- I'm sorry that the police chief is not here to give his same presentation that he gave in the meeting this morning. So -- but a lot of these issues that we've been discussing, we had people who spoke there with the same language that we had here. So this is just a very small picture of the two hour, two and a half hour meeting that we had today about it. There are a lot of other issues discussed, a lot of other dialogue between councilmembers based upon the comments of the citizenry. So we have a motion to postpone to an event certain by Councilmember Meltzer and we have a second by Councilmember Briggs. So if we are voting yes to the motion, that's to postpone it. Is that correct? That is correct. Okay. We do need the -- what was the actual event certain so that everybody here is clear? Yeah. The event certain is an opportunity for council to consider options for emergency shelter to cover the period between the present and on Senior King potentially being open seven nights. Those options to be generated by a reconvening of the emergency shelter task force. Okay. All right. So we have a motion to postpone to an event certain as described by Councilmember Meltzer. A vote yes is to postpone, a vote no is to continue to move forward with this item during this meeting. So let's vote on the board, please. Motion fails four to three. Councilmember Ryan. I move approval of item four, you. Councilmember -- Mayor Pro Tem Hutspeth. Second. Let's vote on the board, please. The motion carries four to three. Let's take about a five-minute break and we'll start in on our items for individual consideration. Welcome everyone back to this meeting of the City Council on July 16, 2019. It is 8.55 p.m. We're back on our agenda. We just concluded the consent agenda. And moving on to agenda item five, which are items for individual consideration. I'm going to call items A and B because the presentation I believe staff is going to make jointly. But then we will take discussion jointly if there's some discussion and then we'll vote separately on those. So agenda item five A is considered adoption of an ordinance considering all matters incident and related to the issuance, sale, and delivery of up to -- I doodled on my thing. I can't read it. $30,720,000 in principal amount of City of Denton Certificates of Obligation Series 2019, is that the correct amount? Then agenda item five B is considered adoption of an ordinance considering all matters incident and related to the issuance, sale, and delivery of up to $47,990,000 in principal of City of Denton General Obligation Refunding and Improvement Bonds Series 2019. And I think I believe I saw our bond council back there in case we had any questions. Bond council and financial advisors. Okay. You're on. David Gaines, Director of Finance. This presentation will cover both of those items which are certificates of obligation for sale and our general obligation debt that we are planning to issue. As I go through these projects, these are projects that we've talked through with council and with the Audit and Finance Committee as we get with the notice of intention process and through reimbursement ordinances and also during our budget process for 2018-19 for a number of the projects. So in total for the certificates of obligation, we're looking to issue $30.39 million. That's less than our total budgeted COs for the entire city. We'll go through each of these categories. You can see our general government. We've increased the amount that we're issuing this fiscal year. And that was, as we've discussed with council previously, that was a result of lowering the amount of debt we're issuing for vehicle replacements, which was five-year debt, and then using that amount to issue 20-year debt for the projects that we'll list for general government. In technology services, we have $1.6 million we're issuing for a server refresh, which is paid through the internal service fund transfer. So we'll go through each of those as we move forward. And we have staff from each of the departments available tonight if there are any questions on any of the individual projects. For the certificates of obligation, we are required to do a notice of intention to issue COs. We originally went to the Audit and Finance Committee in April in advance of that notice of intention. And then on July 11th of this year, city council approved us to move forward with the notice of intention. They were listed in the Didn't Record Chronicle twice, and they were also posted on our website immediately following the city council meeting. So here's a detail of those general fund projects. And you can see all the ones with an asterisk there were part of a reimbursement ordinance previously approved by city council so that the projects can move forward with funding in advance of the bond sale. The vehicle replacements we did, we came to council with the option for the police facilities as we got started on the schematic design for that project and other land acquisition. The small transportation projects, Creek of Realignment, which was again in advance of other projects. Our facility maintenance program, which is $1.5 million that we put forward to that program each year, that's 10-year debt. We have added the municipal parking facilities, $1 million for that, allocated to parking facilities, which we first brought to council with the notice of intention. So that amount could now be used for any project that would come up and be appropriate. And then the server refresh for $1.6 million, which is not paid through general fund debt service, but paid through transfers as an internal service fund, that debt service payment. In addition to the utilities and water, we have $3 million that we're planning to issue. This is less than the budgeted amount that we had originally budgeted to issue from the water fund. And that was a result of having higher than expected revenue last year and having a healthy fund balance where we didn't have to issue all the debt necessary. But these two projects related to Lake Louisville are necessary right now for funding in combined with the revenue that we already have to go towards those projects. The number of wastewater projects here totaling $9.8 million, the largest being Hickory Creek Detention Facility. Each one of these projects was included in the 2018-19 budget. $7.59 million for electric, both transmission projects and distribution projects that were included in that total, which ultimately brings our total certificates obligation for sale to $30.39 million. I can answer any questions. This is the certificate, the extent of my presentation on the certificates of obligation. I'd be happy to answer any questions on these. Any questions? Councilmember Briggs has a question. And so on this electric one right here for the transmission, that will be paid through the TCOs. We'll get reimbursed for some of that. Reimbursed for all those assets in our TCOs reimbursement. Okay. Great. Thank you. So our general obligations that we're planning to sell. Obviously, these are all to get closer to closing out our 2014 bond program. We'll have our final issuance of the 2014 bond program next fiscal year. The amounts included were for transportation, drainage, and parks from that 2014 bond program. Here's a detail of those streets improvements that are included here. I thought that was left over from last time. I apologize. Yes. I punched it again. Yeah, so could you talk to the rail quiet zones because that has been something that we've seen for like four years and recently too. So is this the second phase of that or the first phase or is this just finally the first phase coming back through? It's been -- I've had lots of questions about it. There have been -- there are actually two issuances for quiet zones in the 2014 bond. The smaller subset was already issued, I believe, 2014, 2015 in that timeframe. This is the second issuance of that, and we are working with UP on the timing for that. Some of that is also tied to some of the capital projects that are coming down the bike, like a Roodale Road, Roodale/Mingo, which has been repurposed to a much broader project. And then tying some of the other improvements that I know Preetam and his staff have already been working on. So the original one that is just now starting to get done, so we haven't really seen any of those quiet yet. Correct. The permitting process does take a while to get through, unfortunately, as we're working with the FRA and the partners, the individual rail lines that we're working with. Well, thanks for the clarification because you see that up there and people are like, well, I've been seeing that, but I haven't seen any results. So thank you for speaking to that. Thank you, Council Member Meltzer. I don't have the number of what it increases our total indebtedness. I can definitely get that number to you. All the debt service that is included here was included in our 2018-19 budget. We're not exceeding our debt service, so it was all budgeted debt service that we anticipated. I can get you the incremental increase in that. That's really the gist. This is not a change to our capital plan. Exactly. Thanks. Also included were drainage projects, the South Bell Drainage Program from the 2014 Bond Program there for $705,000. For our park system improvements from the 2014 program, you can see the projects listed there, the tennis center, parks improvements, and playground replacements. We've also used this opportunity on the GEO side to explore refunding outstanding debt we have at DME for our scrubber debt, our TNPA scrubber debt. When we began the fiscal year, we had a healthy fund balance in our electric fund, and we had planned on paying this debt down given circumstances within the electric budget. We decided to hold off on that, on paying that debt off completely. We also, with interest rates coming in lower than anticipated, were presented the opportunity to refund that debt with a savings of $2.1 million over the remaining debt schedule for the debt. So we are taking advantage of that with this plan and would refinance that debt. So question, it's not extending the term of the loan. It's basically just putting in new money at a lower rate. Correct. And if it's scheduled to be paid, when is it? 2025. 2025. So we're not, it's still going to be paid off in 2025. We're just saving $2.1 million on refinancing it. Correct. Great. Do you know what the interest rate is? The max that we've listed here is 3.5, but we anticipate it will be around 2.5 or so. That's unbelievable. Yeah. 2.5 percent. Yeah. Okay. Councilmember Armitage. So just question, it's almost like kind of a can you help jog my memory, you know, question that the TNPA scrubber debt, was the original idea that the deck would produce enough revenue to pay off that or was it always the plan to -- It was treated outside the scope of the deck. It's just part of the TNPA obligations. Each of the cities had to kick in their proportionate shares. So it stands independent of the deck. It was issued well before that and contemplated well before the deck debt. Thank you. So our next steps, we would set a bond sale date and move forward very quickly. Obviously, we have a six-month window. Our plan would be to finalize the sale much sooner than that. And then we will provide city council an informal staff report with the total amount issued and the outcome of the bond sale once it's sold. Okay. Any questions for staff? We will take this -- we'll take each one of these individually. So we'll move on agenda item 5A. Chair would entertain action on agenda item 5A. Councilmember Ryan? Thank you, Councilmember Ryan. Councilmember Briggs? Second. So we have a motion and a second on agenda item 5A. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries 7-0. Agenda item 5B is -- Councilmember Ryan? Move approval. Councilmember Davis? Second. Let's vote on agenda item 5B, please. 5B carries unanimously. Moving on to agenda item 5C, consider appointing a nominating committee to recommend appointees to serve on the economic development partnership board. Good evening, being mayor and council, Jessica Rogers, director of economic development. I have a very quick presentation just to facilitate the discussion this evening. Tonight you will be appointing a nominating committee to recommend the nominees to serve on the economic development partnership board. The authorizing ordinance for the EDPB requires the city council to appoint three people to serve as the nominating committee. The nominating committee then solicits nominations, contacts the nominees, confirms eligibility and willingness to serve, and presents the slate of appointees for city council for approval. The committee is made up of three members, two city council members and one member of the Denton Chamber of Commerce. The chamber has nominated Marty Rivers for their seat, and they -- I will add that the nominating committee members are qualified for appointment to the economic development partnership board as well. So tonight you'll be considering appointment of two city council members and a member of the Denton Chamber of Commerce to serve as the 2019 economic development partnership board nominating committee. And that is all I have. So I think I heard your statement just a second ago that if you're on the nominating committee, that if you nominate yourself -- You can nominate. Yes. Okay. Yes, you are. Yes, that's in the ordinance that the nominating committee is eligible to serve. Okay. Councilmember Davis. I would like to serve on the nominating committee. Okay. All right. Councilmember Briggs. I actually would like to continue to be on the economic board, so I do not want to serve on the committee because I don't feel comfortable voting for myself or nominating myself to be on that committee. I wanted to recommend the mayor and councilmember Amartar to be on the nominating committee. Is that what we're doing? Well, yeah, I think we're taking nominations. I'm sorry. So I guess -- is it one nomination per councilmember or -- can a councilmember name both nominations? I think we -- because I know our practice has been you nominate someone and then if someone else nominates someone, we take those in sequential order of the vote, if I remember correctly. Yes, that is correct. And then this is for the nominating committee. That's right, yes. Okay. Right. And so the nominating committee will come back with their recommendations and then we'll vote on them individually or the same. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, the nominations, we'd vote on them probably -- well, maybe as a group. I don't remember how we've done it in the past. Okay. Okay. So councilmember -- let me go back for clarification. Councilmember Davis, were you wanting to be on the nominating committee or just expressing your desire to be on the EDP board? Correct. I would like to be on the nominating committee, so I nominated myself to be on that committee and then I do wish to serve a term on the board. Okay. All right. And councilmember Briggs, you nominated -- you said two, so the order in which you state the next one will be how we -- because I think we vote on this nominating board. Do we not? Yes. Okay. All right. So yes, go ahead. I would like to nominate you to the committee. Okay. Oh. It wasn't -- was it that evident? Okay. Okay. All right. Well, we've got a couple of nominations. Councilmember -- so councilmember Meltzer. Yeah, I served on this committee last year with councilmember Ryan, and all we did was vet non-council members and ultimately made a recommendation on one. I don't recall us -- correct me if I'm wrong, councilmember Ryan, but I don't recall us making any recommendations as far as council members to serve on the committee. Do you? As I recall, we had two volunteers to be on it last year, and so we went with those two volunteers. Okay. So it's just when you have more than two that want to be on it, then you have to vet through it. I remembered it different. Because I think if I remember correctly, during our last -- one of our meetings about councilmembers and their desire to be on the committees, councilmember Davis had expressed a desire to be on the committee. Councilmember Briggs had expressed a desire to be on the committee. And councilmember Meltzer had expressed a desire to be on the committee. So we have more than -- if there's only two, then -- Then it doesn't matter. And just to clarify, you sort of said this, but the other work of that committee was calling all the current members from the other organizations that are represented to confirm their interest in continuing. So that's just so you know what you're getting into. Okay. All right. Councilmember Mayor Pro Tem Hudspeth. Quick question for staff. So just for those in the room and those following along at home. So September 19th, there's a meeting, and it's a joint session with this board -- I think round numbers. It's in September. Yes. There's a joint meeting with city council, which -- and the EDP board. Yes. So the members of the EDP board are city council members. That is correct. So two different entities, one person, same meeting. Yes. Okay. Just making sure. Okay. Seeing no other request to speak, councilmember Ryan. I move that we move forward with the nominees of the mayor and councilmember Davis. Okay. And just to clarify, you also have to accept the nomination for the chamber committee. And Marty Rippers. Yes. Yes. Okay. Taking action on the second. Mayor Pro Tem. Second. All right. Do we need to -- okay. We made the motion, the two people, because those are the only two nominations, I think. Yes. Okay. All right. All right. So let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries 7-0. Thank you. Thank you. I thought you said it was quick. Agenda item 6A. We're going to go with agenda item 6A, which is hold a public hearing, consider adoption of notice of the city of Denton, Texas, approving a specific use permit to allow for multifamily dwelling use on approximately 9.91-acre site, generally located west of Mockingbird Lane. Before we get started on that presentation, just some housekeeping. We've got three public hearings. Well, more than that, because some of them are rezoning plus an SUP. As you can tell, we have several people in here. So just to ask that when you come down to speak, be clear, concise. Don't want to -- I don't know what the time limit is. Four minutes, I guess. I'm not going to cut the mic. Just be respectful of that. And I ask my colleagues to be respectful of that, too, not trying to shut down or short-circuit any discussion. It's just it's already 9.15, and I want to make sure that we respect everybody's time. So I'm going to go ahead and open the public hearing on agenda item 6A so I don't forget to do it. So we'll have staff presentation, council questions, if any, for staff, and then we'll move into public comment. Thank you, Mayor, members of council, members of staff, Ron Magida, principal planner with Development Services. As stated in the introduction, this is a request for a specific use permit to allow a multifamily dwelling use. The use of multifamily project, it consists of 118 dwelling units with 12 buildings, a clubhouse, and an associated 375 associated parking. The site is shown here, outlined in yellow, approximately 9.91 acres, generally located west of Mockingbird and just south of Mingo Road. This is a landscape plan that shows how the proposed multifamily development is laid out as far as the site plan. As you can see, that the buildings are located throughout the site. Again, there are 12 buildings and a clubhouse which is located along Mockingbird Lane. So we had a public hearing back on May 7th. There was a lot of discussion and the item was postponed to date certain. It was continued again for another public hearing day, which is today, and the discussion that was held on May 7th primarily dealt with traffic and with tree preservation. So the first item that we're going to be discussing is related to the traffic impact analysis. And with that, I'm going to invite Preetem, our deputy city engineer, to speak to this matter. Thank you, Ron. Preetem Deshmukh. STAB did receive a full traffic impact study for this particular project. The study was consistent with our guidelines for analyzing traffic impacts for a new project. And looking at the traffic study based on the results and given the existing capacity of intersection as well as streets in the area, the impacts were not considerable or significant to warrant any medications or changes to the current configuration of streets and intersections. Additionally, an operational analysis for delays associated with the train was also conducted. There is a UP train crossing right south of the intersection of Mockingbird and Mingo. There was an analysis conducted for peak hours when the train would cross. Based on analysis, if the project traffic is added to the existing traffic, there will be an additional stacking of two cars, which will then require additional 15 seconds for dissipation after the train passes. So that was the analysis. Also, a weekend analysis for church-related traffic on Sunday was conducted as part of the analysis. And based on that, the volumes at the intersection of Mingo and Mockingbird were lower than the weekday peak hour, and hence the overall impacts were also lower on the weekends. Based on that and the assessment of the project driveways on Mingo, all function at an acceptable level of service and are within acceptable LOS for the city. And if there are any specific questions related to the traffic study and analysis, we do have the applicant's traffic engineer that can respond to those questions. Ron can continue. >> I don't see any questions, yeah. >> Okay. >> Thank you, Tim. Next item for discussion, again, that was brought up during the May 7th public hearing related to tree preservation. This chart here that illustrates what is required as far as preservation. As you can see on the middle row, protected trees, there are none to be preserved as far as requirements. As far as quality trees, 25% is required. Large secondary trees, there are none to be preserved as far as requirements. Secondary trees, it's 12.5. To the far right, you can see what's being proposed. The applicant is proposing to exceed in most, in all cases. And I've asked the applicant to present during his presentation how they are going to do the preservations and to meet those percentages that you see here. So if there are no questions related to the tree preservation plan, the applicant, again, will be able to present more in detail of what their plans are. >> I see none. >> Okay. >> At least at this point. >> Notifications were sent out of the proposed SUP, specific use permit, 24 were mailed. Two residents within 200 feet, 86 to property owners or residents within 500 feet. We've received five in opposition and three in favor. As you can see on the exhibit here, it illustrates where those oppositions and those are in favor. Two signs were posted on the property and two neighborhood meetings were held for the subject project. Meeting one was held back in October of 2018 and meeting two actually occurred earlier this year, January 31. The city has a set of criteria for approval. One is that it complies and is consistent with the plan 2030 as far as the land use element. Also section 3564, the approval criteria for specific use permit, that the project is in conformance with all standards as well as being compatible and will not have an adverse impact on the surrounding area. The planning zoning commission recommended approval of the SUP 6-0 on March 20th. Staff also recommends approval with the following conditions. Those conditions are, one, that the attached preliminary site plan and landscape plan reflects the intent to comply with the DDC requirements. If there are any minor alterations that is allowed under the approval, alternative approval of those sections. Two, that any major amendment to the SUP will come back as an ordinance to both the planning zoning commission and city council. And that the site plan and landscape plan will follow the following requirements as incorporated in the requirements of the SUP. And the fact that these are also listed here, that they are the requirements that they not exceed the 12 buildings, the 108,500 square feet proposed, that it does not exceed 118 dwelling units or the density of 11.9 dwelling units per acre. And that it does not exceed the 375 parking spaces that is proposed as well as the 60% lot coverage maximum. With that, staff will stand for any questions. >> Any questions for staff prior to public comment? Seeing none, thank you. Okay, I've got four blue cards and we'll call those, but of course this is a public meeting and after we call those, anyone wishing to speak on this item is welcome to come down and state your name and address and speak. Is the applicant here? Yes, if you'll come on down. Did you fill out a card? >> Patrick. >> Patrick, if you'll go ahead and state your name and address, and I believe the applicant gets additional time, is that correct? >> We'll try not to use it. >> Okay. All right. I just wanted to let you know. All right. Thank you, Patrick. State your name and address, please. >> My name is Patrick Filson. I'm here tonight representing the ownership group of this property and the developer. My address is 4821 Merlot Avenue in Grapevine, Texas. I won't repeat a lot of what Ron just said. I think he presented the case very well and hit on the topics that we need to discuss here tonight. As many of you are aware, a couple of months ago we were before you and there were some concerns and some questions, we've gone back and addressed, I think, every one of those questions and concerns. So that's just an overview of the property, overview of the zoning of the property, the current zoning of the property, NRMU 12 with a density unit of 12 units per acre and consistent with the SEP we're requesting. Just a history of what meetings we've held and been to and, again, our site plan that Ron just presented to us, pretty standard site plan and our landscape plan. One of the things on the landscape plan I wanted to address were the preservation of existing trees. Sorry. These were, this is a depiction of all the trees on site. We did an individual tree survey, located every single tree on site, whether it was a small tree that doesn't qualify as any category or a large protected tree. From those trees, these are the trees that we are preserving and they'll fall into those four categories that Ron just has shown and, again, we've got the same breakdown here of those four categories, what's required of us and what we're preserving. We go well above and beyond what is required of us on each one of those categories. Here's the elevation. Elevation was a large topic of discussion last time. As these aren't final and not a part of our SEP, per se, but a lot of work has gone into these to update these and make this more of a realistic topic that we can view and see what the vision of the product is. It breaks down our materials on this facade plan and shows that we are meeting and exceeding the city ordinances. We do have our traffic engineer that performed the TIA here to speak on traffic and the additional work that has been done. Last time we were here, there was a traffic study that was done and submitted to staff, approved by staff. There were some questions and some concerns. We've gone out and done some additional research and done some additional counts and updated the TIA and provided more information to the TIA. Can we have Cameron Williams, the traffic engineer, discuss that now, or do you want him to come up later? That's up to the applicant. That's allowed within the applicant's time. He wants to come up and hit on these few points and then we'll close it out and open for questions from there. Cameron Williams, address is 1200 North Lake Drive, Richardson, Texas. I represent the firm that did the traffic engineering study. I'm not going to go into detail. You kind of see it there. We did the original study. We came back, collected traffic data on a Sunday so we wouldn't have that information and also looked at some of the impacts of the train. What you see there is once you -- these impacts that you show of an additional 15 seconds and two to three vehicles of additional queue on some of the approaches, that is in the year 2025. So traffic has been grown. You've added this development. So nothing major that this development adds. So I just wanted to give that highlight. But if there are more details and questions that you have, I'm happy to answer those. I see a couple of questions queued up, Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you, sir. Specific to the train, so can you speak to generally how many times that run is made and the average duration of that, please? Of the train? Yes, sir. So what we did is we had our data from that Sunday that we collected data. And that was -- we counted one -- basically one train per hour, maximum two, that that occurred. And that was on a Sunday morning. And that time ranged from roughly two minutes to four minutes in length of that duration of what we collected on that specific day. So -- Thank you. Sure. Councilmember Meltzer. Isn't that a pretty different elevation than what we were shown before? Am I looking at the wrong thing? Yes, sir. It is. Yes. It's a different elevation. It's really just a vision of what we've got. That'll be a completely different review process that goes through with staff. And this is just a more realistic, updated elevation. I'm going to just share a comment that -- part of what I liked about what I saw was that the development faces a bunch of single family. Correct. The faces onto Stockton Street. So it faces the rear of a row of single family. And this one, you know, gives an appearance kind of like townhouses, which felt a little more intuitively to me like transitional density, you know. So that just has -- gave a different impression. Just sharing that comment. Okay. That's fair enough. Okay. Any other -- well, you still have time. There's no more requests to speak, so yes, you can -- whatever you have left on your presentation. That's the end of our presentation. If there are any specific questions beyond that, we're happy to answer those. Okay. So just to clarify, within the SUP request, there's no -- you're not asking for or you're not representing that, at least up to this point, that the elevations or any of the things that we saw on that elevation depiction being percentage of brick, percentage of stucco, anything there, up to this point, that's not being asked to be memorialized in the SUP. That's correct. We will follow the existing zoning ordinances guidelines. Okay. Just like we would any other time. Okay. It was brought up last time and discussed last time, and we wanted to have a more realistic depiction and show that what materials we are to anticipate using. All right. Appreciate that. Any other questions for the speaker? All right. Our next speaker will be Nancy Carson. You'll come down, state your name and address, your time will begin. My name is Nancy Carson, I live at 2908 Oakshire Street here in Denton. Last time, one of the things that we talked about was the drainage in the area, and so I brought some things, I've done some studies, and I want to show you. Okay, you see the black line here, this goes from University over across Mockingbird and that is a creek. All this water we've been talking about actually comes from a creek. This is the creek, this is, I'm standing on the road taking the picture here, and this is not too far from the proposed site. Here we have a 50-foot concrete creek, you see here one of the old houses that they bought to build this on, and the conduit that goes under the street. The reason there is such a drainage problem, or seems to be on that property, is because the railroad track is so much higher than the ground level. This is the property, and it's hard to see, but there's a swamp area here that looks like an alligator would be crawling out of it. Right here is the, I want to say conduit, that goes under the street there from the creek, and this is what the other side of the creek looks like. There's no concrete, no nothing, it just digs through the property, and I didn't follow it because it's real bushy and spooky. Okay, but here you see is Mockingbird is higher here, and then here's the land we're talking about, and it goes down much lower, and then we have the creek on further down there. I know we had a traffic study, but I have lived out there for 12 years, so I think I have as much input about it as them coming out for a few hours, a few days. This is Nottingham, which is one crossing down from Mockingbird, and the train arm has just gone up to let the cars pass, and in this picture there are nine cars. Alright, we can't see all the way back. We know there were at least nine cars sitting there waiting on the train to cross. This is Mockingbird and the intersection that we see. Here is the Mockingbird intersection. This is Mingo, and my point here is how many cars have to wait to get across when there's a train holding them up. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. That is all the room that there is, and we already have more cars than that. Alright, thank you very much, I appreciate that. Any questions for the speaker? Council Member Briggs? I just wanted to say thank you for bringing my folder back and keeping it for me. I appreciate that. Okay, Council Member Davis? Ma'am. Ma'am. Nancy? Yeah, there's a question for you. I'm sorry, I just have a little question for you. So the pictures you were showing us of the concrete, I'll call it a culvert or drainage ditch, that's alongside the backside of the houses that face Stockton? So that's along the, okay, so it's a natural, I guess I'll call it a natural creek bed from Mingo down, like under the train tracks, and then down to some point, and then it turns concrete and then goes under Mockingbird? No, it doesn't go under the train tracks. It comes from Nottingham. Of course, we saw it started at university, but it comes from Nottingham, behind the houses there, under Mockingbird, and then just spills out into the open land. On the east side of Mockingbird? It spills out on the east side? Yes, you're right. So the portion, I'll say to the south of the piece of land, we're talking about apartments going on, the portion there, that's all right now a concrete channel. Yes. Is that right? Yes. Thank you, and thank you for your work on this. Councilman Briggs, you guys still show your, okay, thank you. Okay, Cameron Williams, I believe you have anything else you would like to add, okay? Is it Mukesh Parana, if you'd like to come state your name and address and your time will begin? Yes. I'll try to keep it short. Mukesh Parana, 5811 Carey Drive, Frisco. I'd like to just summarize the project a little bit. We tried to, you know, if you and we're working with the city and we are appreciative of the city staff going and working with us, we have kept the units within the current zoning. We have built townhome style units with enclosed parking. We did two neighborhood meetings, one in October and one in January of this year, to address all neighborhood concerns. We are building a class A amenity with clubhouse. We'll have property manager at the site, and we have done thorough traffic study three times already now. And the traffic study experts have shown that we are less than 10% of the entire capacity at that intersection. We have preserved trees way more than what has been required, and based on all the request city council support on the project. That's all. Thank you. Thank you. Any questions? Thank you. Appreciate it. All right, this is a public hearing. Those are all the cards that I have, but this is a public hearing. Anybody wishing to speak on this item can come down and state your name and address and your time will begin. Anybody wishing to speak? One more time. No, if you've already spoken, yeah, you can. Okay. I'm going to close the public hearing. Councilmember Davis. I have a quick question, I think probably for staff, Ron. So I'm just trying to square the drainage situation real quickly in my mind. I'm looking at the overhead, and it looks like that concrete channel is right where we described it a moment ago with the last neighbor, but looking at the site plan and the depth of the lots on Stockton street, am I correct in thinking the drainage easement is on those lots or is the drainage easement on the subject property? That's a good question. It is on those lots. So I think the council is well aware of my feelings on concrete culverts, but it doesn't sound like in this project we'd have the ability to do anything with that particular drainage easement. That's just completely outside the scope of this property. Yes, sir. Thank you. Councilmember Armitage. Yes. So my question was also going to be about the drainage, more general question, which was, you know, can you just kind of speak to the drainage issues addressed by the resident who just spoke without repeating your answer to Councilmember Davis's question. Sure. Just the information that I know of as far as drainage. Obviously you heard that it does traverse on the southern portion of the subject site. The culvert is there obviously to help drain the area of rainfall and whatnot. The impact of the development is not going to have additional impact as far as drainage. They're going to detain what they need to or address any additional drainage to the drainage channel. So as far as drainage, there's no impact that would come out of this project. Yes. Thank you. Councilmember Meltzer. If we're going to grow compactly, as the 1020/30 plan indicates, we're going to need dense housing somewhere. I'm inclined to agree that this is not a bad place to put it, but I note that it does add population that doesn't help with our goal of 10-minute walkability to green space, so I wonder if you can address whether there are potential actions that could be taken with respect to this property that would mitigate that in the future. You probably can't be too specific because we're not identifying sites to be purchased, but can you answer generically, are there actions that might be taken in the future to mitigate? This is like a 27-minute walk, I think you said. The closest that I found was 20, 25, 26. There are not any obviously closed parks within this subject's property, or we know that any development, especially residential, will have to provide park impact fees and the Park Master Plan is being worked on, so an opportunity, if it comes up in this area, obviously that's priority, but as far as what this project can do, there's really not much other than paying to the park impact fees fund. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? What's the property currently zoned? NRU-Me 12. What will it transition to when the code- I believe it's R7. Yes. All right. Okay. Any other questions for staff? Public hearing has been closed. Member Briggs. What are the price points of the units? I'm not going to answer that question. When you say price points, you mean the rental amounts? Okay. Yeah. Do we know what the price points will be for the different units? Yes. It will be close to around $1,700 to $2,000 per month. $1,700? Per month. Per month for one, two- are they all three-bedroom? Three-bedrooms. Three-bedrooms? Yes. Is it by the room or is it- no, it's on. Yeah. Enclosed garages and three-bedrooms. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So we have no more questions. We have no more staff presentation. Just for clarification, it is per whole unit, not per bedroom. Okay. Okay. Thank you. So Chair, would- anybody has any action on this item? All right, Chair, we'll ask one more time. We'll need a motion and a second to move this item forward, and Mr. City Attorney, I believe that if we don't, it dies for lack of a motion, and therefore, is that a- that's technically a denial? No, it stays on the table, and if it's not picked up by the end of the meeting then it basically is a denial. Okay. All right. So it just sort of lingers there until the end of the meeting. That's correct. All right. Okay. Going to call it one more time. Any action on this item? What- what do I pronounce, that it- there's no motion, therefore, it stays on the table until the end of the meeting? Yes. Okay. Yes. All right. I see no motion, so it- oh, I'm sorry. Council Member Davis, it just popped up on me. Council Member Davis? I move approval of the SUP. I think we need housing inventory. I think the rental that's going to be offered at is acceptable. I think it is appropriate in the place that it is, and I think the project is- and the requirements, the recommendations, excuse me, of staff are appropriate for this project. Council Member Meltzer? Yeah. I'll second. I can't wait to hear the discussion. I don't think I've ever seen that before, where no one wanted to- Mayor Pro Tem, you had a question or comment? I have a comment. Let me get there. Sorry. You were- you got me- all right, got it. So one, yes, this is truly unique, interesting, but I want to first start by giving credit to staff. I met with Pre Tem. I think it was no tie Pre Tem, but I met with him and walked through some of my issues, and he helped me kind of process and understand my questions from the first meeting. Then followed up with additional information. Appreciate that. The analysis, looking into the Sunday traffic and the other kind of questions I had, the project in and of itself, on its face, supersedes all expectations, and so that's one side of it. The other side is the reality side of it, the neighborhood that Nancy pointed out, that I visually see more traffic than the report would show, and here's the component. Here's where it all kind of hangs for me, and I'm going to listen to my peers and make a decision, but the fact of the matter is, in the conclusion of the traffic study, here's the reality of it. So all those- everything that was presented is true, but you conclude with this, that the analysis conducted in this study were based upon observations and data collected in 2018, these traffic counts were forecasted in future years, analysis and methodologies intended to be conservative, but realistic, et cetera, et cetera, but it says, in summary, it says if it grows, if something changes, or basically you can't hold them accountable for not being able to predict the future, and that's fair, and that's accurate, but the fact of the matter is, our vote is permanent, you know, so whereas this study is a moment in time, and it's forward-looking, and I get that, but once they're there, and the emails are generated after the fact, it says, hey, I'm upset with you that I can't travel in Mingo, or I don't have a sidewalk on Mockingbird, those emails come to somebody in this capacity, and so that is- that's the difference, that there's a projection looking forward, and there's reality on the ground once it's there, and emails are generated because we don't have sidewalks, people can't cross the street, et cetera, et cetera, so that's a challenge, but I look forward to kind of hearing my colleagues, and I truly am processing, so thank you. - All right, Council Member Davis. - So we had, you know, like as, excuse me, Mayor Pro Tem, husband said, we had kind of an awkward moment here, where we sat here wondering if this was going to die for lack of emotion, and I was just about ready to let the council have its will that way, however, this represents, I think, a lot of work on staff's time, I think a lot of work, frankly, on the developer's time, they met with the neighborhood, they went back to the drawing board, every time they go back to their engineer and do work, it costs money, and they put a lot of money into this project, and I think this deserves an up or down vote, simply for that fact, that our staff has worked on it, and that developers invested their time and money into it, and I support this project, not because it's exactly the spot I would have picked for apartment homes, however, we spent a lot of time on this council talking about affordable housing, and there are realistically very few opportunities we have as a body and as a city government to affect the affordability of housing in our city. When we put up affordable, properly dense, well placed, multifamily housing, that means we open up inventory sometimes at the top end and sometimes at the bottom end, but ultimately, fewer people feel the pinch when we add to our rental inventory. We can talk all day long about where multifamily doesn't belong, but it has to go someplace, and frankly, this is a spot alongside some train tracks where there's not going to be a nice big NR1 kind of home going next to these train tracks. This is the proper siting and the staff recommendations to kind of mitigate some of the neighborhood issues, the landscaping buffering and all that. That makes me satisfied with this project and that we're adding good quality inventory to our apartments. A couple of questions for legal. We're sort of in a transition here since the state legislature ended. We've got one in particular piece of legislation that's going to go into effect, I believe, in September. If any of this is something that you think we would need to go into close session about, let me know. My goal is not to do that. Also, we have a code of revision of the DDC that's scheduled to go effective in October, but there may be some discussion about that. Something may be a little different about that. If what is approved, let's say, hypothetically, there is an approval tonight, does that lock in those requirements based upon the motion and second and vote if there were conditions of façade percentages of different types of building materials and the like, that the effective date of something in the future is not necessarily retroactive to sort of claw back into the past to affect it. Or if, for example, part of this SUP is not the site plan or it's not the elevation, I think the site plan was part of it, but it's not the elevation. It's not the elevation of what it looked like we saw on the rendering, nor does it include any type of the percentages based upon the building materials. With that not being decided at this point, if that discussion occurs after September the 1st, based upon our ordinances, does that mean that what would be applied would be the new state law or because it was approved now that the project moves forward in its totality with all the different permitting and regulations that apply therewith that it would be seen as one moving forward, not a component at different times, does that make sense? Yes, it makes sense. I think at this time with the application that comes forward, I know we have the SUP, but also related to, that may not be in the SUP, are the different building materials that we require, or at least the mix that we offer available. This application as it moves forward, those will still apply, it's just once after September 1st, we will no longer be able to pass any regulations addressing these type of building materials, or even enforce what we have in the books. That answers my question. Council Member Davis. I'm sorry, that's my old one. Oh, okay. Council Member Armitage. I'm going to be voting yes to this, and I applaud staff for working on this project, and the residents for helping to shape the discussion of what goes into it to make it better. There are the kind of issues that come up, concerns about traffic, concerns about drainage. I wish there was a way around the train track, I've been stuck at that train track myself, but it's, as Council Member Davis said, we need housing, and it's important to me that we do it in a way where we're taking care of the people who we have here, who are in housing in the area. I want to make sure that people get in touch with us, including the people who are moving into these homes, and let us know how it's going and what we can do to help make it better as it goes. I want to speak to the building materials question, even though it might not be going into effect until September 1st, there are some issues that I have without new legislation that I'm a little concerned about, but I like the idea behind it, I like the idea of not getting too involved outside of safety issues and what kind of materials people use, and there's a lot I think that's positive about this legislation, including there are some ways that, well, anyway, I could go on, I'm going to stop with that, but I'm just going to say that I myself hope that we're not going to be nitpicking about building materials unless it's a safety issue, so anyway, I'm going to be voting yes. Okay. Anyone else? Let's see, we've got a motion and a second, and there were staff recommendations with this, is that correct? Yes, sir, there's staff conditions. Staff conditions, are those conditions part of the motion, Council Member Davis? They are. Okay. Council Member Messler, is that your understanding? Yes. All right. So we have a motion and a second. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries six to one. Thank you. All right. We'll move on to our next agenda item, so we're going to most likely be taking a break in the middle of this agenda item because we've got several cards. We have several cards here, so is staff's goal to present these together or no? We're just going to take them one at a time, A and B, because one is the zoning and one is the SEP. Is that correct? Six B is only a zoning case. Oh, okay, good. It's the next two items that are combined. Oh, okay. All right. Let's take a five minute before we get into this because it's going to be hard to find a stopping point. Let's just let's come back in time. Welcome everyone back to this meeting of the Dent City Council on July 16, 2019. It is 10-05. We are on Agenda Item 6B, which is hold a public hearing, consider adoption of an ordinance of the City of Denton, Texas, approving initial and amended zoning classifications of NR2 and NR3 with overlay on approximately 92.06 acres. And I will now open the public hearing. We'll have staff presentation, council discussion, then public comment. This is case Z1811 for Agave Ranch. There's a bit of history on this project. It's been before the Planning and Zoning Commission three times so far, so just a quick summary of those, back in January the request originally went to P&Z as a request for neighborhood residential four zoning on the entire property. The Planning and Zoning Commission recommended denial at that time. In May, the case returned with a revised request with a combination of NR4, NR3, and NR2 districts. At that time, after lengthy discussion, the P&Z recommended to postpone the item indefinitely to give the applicant time to look at ways to reduce the density that they were proposing. So on June 19th, the case went back to P&Z for the third time with the mixture of NR3 and NR2 that we'll look at here tonight, and P&Z did recommend approval at that time. So specifically, the request is for both an initial zoning and a rezoning from RD5 to NR3 on 45.5 acres and NR2 on 46.5 acres, total property acreage being 92. So to look at that zoning, the dark green here along Sherman or FM428 is approximately 40 acres of RD5 zoning. The green hatched area, the balance of the property, about 52 acres, has that placeholder designation of RD5X. On the right side here, you can see the mixture of NR3 and NR2 that they would be proposing with this request. So a comparison of the uses and densities permitted in these designations, the RD5 would permit only residential or rural uses, NR3 would permit detached single-family as well as townhomes with a specific use permit, and NR2 would permit single-family as well as manufactured housing with an SUP. So there is a staff recommendation that we'll discuss a little bit later to net out those uses that aren't strictly single-family detached. The important factor here to look at is really the density, because under the 02 code for subdivisions over two acres in size, minimum lot sizes didn't come into play. It was strictly by density. So under the RD5 current zoning at 0.2 dwelling units per acre, they could have a maximum of 18 units, NR3 is at three and a half dwelling units per acre, NR2 is two dwelling units per acre. That would give them a total of up to 252 single-family units on the property. With rezonings, the criteria for approval that we initially look at is whether it conforms to the future land use element of our Denton Plan 2030. The designation for this area and generally the whole north side of town is rural areas. That's a designation intended to maintain the city's rural character. Farming and ranching is encouraged as well as very low-density residential development and no more than one unit per five acres. So the requested NR3 and NR2 does not meet the intent of that future land use designation. When a request doesn't meet the future land use designation, the DDC then provides additional criteria to be analyzed to look further in depth at the character of the area and the potential impacts of the development. So looking at the first couple of criteria, which deal with the existing land uses and zoning and the impacts to future development, generally the inner part of our city is filling up and we're seeing this growth pressure on the north side of the city. So although the subject property is surrounded by a lot of rural areas, this side of town is urbanizing. All of the yellow dots on this map represent projects that we've had over the past couple of years in this area. Some of these you may remember more recently, such as Stark Farms just across the street. So what we're seeing is a continual growth pattern towards the northern fringe of our city. Looking at the zoning in this area, there is NR4 and NR2 adjacent to the subject property both on the same side of FM428 as well as across the road. There's also the recent NR6 that I mentioned with Stark Farms just across FM428. So this proposal could continue that transition of the slightly higher density zoning along FM428 to help transition out from the high traffic area of the highway to the more rural areas. Looking at some of the other criteria, such as adequate public improvements, the applicant did a trip generation analysis for the request. They based it on one of their earlier proposals that had about 310 units, so these numbers do exceed what we would see for this specific proposal. At 310 units, the trip generation was expected to be just under 3,000 trips a day. The applicant didn't do a full TIA because the city at this time actually had an ongoing traffic study for the FM428 corridor. And what we saw from that study was the need for more east-west connections in this area, the need for additional travel lanes on our existing roads, as well as intersection improvements. Specifically, there were some suggestions in the report for a realignment of Hartley Field Road that would impact this property, so we'll look at that in just a second. And there are some existing city projects in this area as well. Currently under design are a dedicated right turn lane and a signal at the FM428 and Loop 288 intersection. So this map is the result of that study. The dark boundary around the perimeter here is the study boundary. The subject property is roughly here in this orange area. And then the key roadway to look at for this property is this yellow line here labeled as F, which is the future proposed alignment of Hartley Field Road. This is also consistent with what our existing mobility plan had called for, was for Hartley Field to take off here from the east and swoop up through this property and cross over FM428 eventually. Other infrastructure in the area, there is a 54-inch water main on 428 that would not be available for them to tap into. A 12-inch line would have to be extended the length of the property. It could either be extended from down here at Long Road or from just north of the site. Sewer extensions would also be required for this site as well as a lift station. We did look at DISD's numbers for this area and their expected student generation. So the numbers you see here are what could be expected from the 252 homes. And the schools that are in this area do have adequate capacity for those students. The site is within 1.2 miles of fire station number four, so it meets the criteria for an eight-minute or less response time. One of the other criteria is to look at the cost of the city. So impact fees are a primary factor here that we looked at. Roadway impact fees would be required for this development. They typically run around $2,000 per dwelling unit, so total that would be just over $500,000. Park fees are also required for any residential development. They come in two forms, the dedication fee that occurs at the time of platting and then the development fee that occurs with permitting. The park dedication fee for development this size would be equivalent to about 1.7 acres of land. And then the park development fee is just a set price per unit that would come out to just over $73,000. We also did a basic analysis of the taxes on this property. It currently does have an agricultural exemption for a large portion of it. So it's 2018 city taxes were just over $6,000. With the estimated improvement value that the applicant provided of $370,000 per unit, we assessed that that would be an increase of about $572,000 in city taxes. So looking at some of the other criteria that consider the character and land uses in the area, we did find that while this area is still rural, we are seeing kind of staged growth along the 428 corridor to the north side of the city. So lower density residential such as this may not be out of character for this area and may be appropriate as we consider how the city will move forward once the core of the city is filled in. However, some of the uses as I mentioned earlier that are permitted in the NR2 and NR3 district wouldn't be in character with the area such as the manufactured housing and town homes. So staff is recommending a condition for an overlay restriction that limits this to single family detached units only. The surrounding area is also known for its open space farming and recreational activities. So we wanted to find a design for this neighborhood that could complement that character. So staff is recommending a condition that would also require an off-street multi-use path or a trail through the development that would provide internal and external connectivity and recreational opportunities for the residents. Our recommendation is that each lot be within 1300 feet of an access point so that would help meet the Parks Department's criteria for a 10-minute walk to a park facility. And then additionally we recommend that there be two remote connections to adjacent properties so that in the future as our Parks Department goes through their master planning efforts there will be opportunities for this development to tie into adjacent properties and continue a trail system through the north side of town. Also in keeping with the character of the area we looked for ways that this could be set back from the roadway to help mitigate both potential nuisances from the future six lane road that is FM 428 as well as to provide some screening and reduce the visual impacts of 252 additional rooftops along the side of the road up here. So staff's recommendation is for a 30-foot landscape buffer that would be located outside of the PUE that would be required on 428. That buffer would contain a landscape berm with a maximum three-to-one side slopes, one large canopy tree planted every 30 linear feet, 30 shrubs for every 100 linear feet, and then a maximum six-foot-high either masonry wrought iron or split rail fence. Notification was sent regarding this request. Notifications were sent to the entire, a buffer around the entire 92 acres of the site, however for the reasons of the 20% opposition and legal notices that is restricted to the area that's actually zoned today and would be rezoned from RD-5 to NR-2 and NR-3. So that's the difference you see here on this map. Currently we're at 3% opposition and 44% in favor within that boundary. The applicant did post signs on the property and has held four neighborhood meetings that I believe they will speak to in their presentation. Staff did receive a number of other responses from outside of that boundary over the three iterations of this request. This map just generally shows the areas that those are from with the size of the dots being roughly indicative of the number of responses in a given area, green dots being in favor and red being opposed. So staff is recommending that this request, although not consistent with our future land use designation as we saw, does meet the overall goals of the Denton Plan 2030 when we consider the overall vision and goals set forth for sensitive land use and multimodal connectivity parks and generally the environment of this area. So staff and the Planning and Zoning Commission are recommending approval with conditions, the first being only single-family detached dwellings be permitted. The second be that off-street multi-use path be required and installed so that each lot is within 1,300 feet of an access point and that there be two remote connections to adjacent properties. We are specifying in the ordinance that for the purposes of this case, remoteness would be defined as half the length of the longest diagonal line bisecting the property that's consistent with the fire code. The third criteria is for that 30-foot landscape buffer along 428 that would be located outside of the PUE containing the berm, the large canopy trees, one for every 30 feet, 30 shrubs per 100 feet and then the 6-foot masonry wrought iron or split rail fence. The Planning and Zoning Commission also recommended two additional conditions based on the applicant's presentation that was given on June 19th. So the fourth condition is that there be a minimum of 15% preserved green space within the development that would include three ponds and nine pocket parks and the fifth being that a pond or park amenity be located within a five-minute walk of all homes. And with that, I'm happy to stand for any questions. I believe the applicant is here as well. >> Yeah, so I had a question about the Hartley Field Road and I noticed that a number of the people who were opposed are in that -- is that right on the road I guess, I assume? >> Yeah, a number of them were on Hartley. >> With the word "Hartley." >> Can you explain a little more why realign the road as opposed to leave it the way it is? >> I might have to let Preetam speak to more of the specifics on that, but it's my understanding that both the mobility plan and the study called for it to generally be realigned in the general vicinity of this property to cross 428 running north of Long Road to provide a more consistent east-west connection. Get back to that map that shows that a little bit better. So Long Road being here on the south side, there was a need to space those I believe, but can let Preetam speak to that? >> So when we studied this area, the main objective for the area was to identify arterials and in the form of secondary and primary, not the collector streets. If you look at Long, this could be a collector street, but as, I'm sorry, as you go further north, you need arterials to be parallel to some of these existing regional connector freeways like the Luke 288. So it is part of a planning process where you have to have some parallel streets for relief and congestion and provide that east-west connectivity. So that was a logical terminus and a logical path for not only to continue this connection further down and provide additional connection in that area, but also connect to 428. >> And so is the idea with doing that with future growth in mind? >> Correct. >> Yes. Yeah. >> So I understand, you know, from an engineering perspective, why that makes sense, I, it's almost more of a, just kind of a, just a philosophical, whatever you want to call it, difference that, you know, I, while, you know, growth is going to happen, right, it just, it makes me sad. I mean, it's such a beautiful area and it seems to, you know, road like that, it seems to serve the area the way it is now and while it won't always remain the same, I kind of, I'm wanting to kind of resist the idea of seeing all that, all that rural area, you know, all that green space get all filled up as much as I love housing, I want housing. It is rural, changing rural, but anyway, so I'll be curious to know, you know, maybe when residents talk, you know, how the neighborhood, how the area feels about that road, but anyway, but thank you. Thank you. >> Councilmember Ryan? Might as well stay up there pre-term. I know that while none of us have it on our mobility maps yet, the county, the city, nor the Metropolitan Planning Organization, we're all right now in studies on 428 becoming a spur that's probably 20, 25 years down the road, so in transportation, road construction, that's actually probably more like 35 years down the road. But my concern is, if it's a spur, we're looking at, what, about a 400 foot overall right away versus an arterial is what, 160? >> Yeah, 135 plus the utility on the outside. >> Right. So have we spoken with the developer about the fact, or do you know if any conversations have gone on with them that, hey, the front part of this property could end up in an eminent domain in 15, 20 years? >> We, I don't believe we have, it is a textile facility, currently we are going through our mobility plan update, so our current mobility plan, it is a primary arterial, which is 135 feet wide, but as we move forward with our mobility plan update, the county's mobility plan, and ultimately the 2045 plan for cog, we are working with TechStat to look at it, at this particular segment between loop 288 and the possible outer loop, if you can see some of these dotted lines that the, for the regional. So this, this is being considered by TechStat, they're working on the feasibility study, but at this time, none of the agencies involved are really ready to say what the future of that road would be. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. Now I've got one more question, and that is, is it going to be based on when they turn in their plat, as to whether they'll fall under the existing code or under the, if they're after October 1st or possibly September 1st, that they'd be under the new code for platting? >> That's correct, it's possible if platting doesn't occur until after September or October that it could be the R2 or R3. The overlay conditions would carry forward, though, as this would show up on our map as well, it's basically a PD with those as base zoning, so anything not covered in the overlay would defer to the R2 or R3 possibly. >> And with NR2 and NR3, it's not as big a concern, but the size of this means that they just have to abide by the number of units per acre, is that correct? >> Correct. >> They don't have to, they have no lot dimensions that they have to abide by or? >> That's correct. The NR2 code density was the only factor if you were over two acres in size. >> Now, with the open space and park dedication that they do, would that count towards that space? >> It could, I believe the parks ordinance allows for some private park or recreation facilities to be counted, it's not like a true one-to-one match, though I believe there's a ratio there that it would be counted towards, so they could still have some dedication. >> Okay. Thank you. >> You're up there, so I'll ask my questions for you first and then pre-TAM don't get too comfortable. So, first of all, I want to say thank you for working so hard on this project. I want to thank the P&Z and the neighborhood also, this is a great example, Mayor, you're always telling us trust the process, it's a good example of how P&Z flogged the developer into looking at more appropriate density for something like this and how the neighborhood stayed after them. I did get, I think we all received a great email from Bridget Marshall, who I think I met earlier, correct? Yeah, I did, and one of the issues that they raised, I think you all probably talked about, but I'd like to hear planning's thoughts on the water well and our authority to, in the overlay process, regulate use of that water, I used to live on this formation and that water table fluctuates wildly, it's not dependable, and you have a lot of residents in our ETJ and in our city limits drawing off of that formation. My family had to make the decision whether we go on city water or drop another thousand foot well just to keep using this formation, so is it possible for us, first of all, what are your conversations with the neighborhood and with the developer about the use of the water well and what's our ability in this process to dictate that? So I know we did receive several responses and questions regarding the well, in general it's my understanding that they would be required to do the 12 inch water line extension, the residents of this could never use that well, it could be used for irrigation or something like that in the future, but that would be its only potential use, but that's been about the extent of the conversation, I know, I believe the applicant's also had some conversations with neighbors regarding that, and they may be able to speak a little more closely to their intent with the well, but future residents of this development would not be able to draw water from it, of course. Sure, but as far as I think the residents' concern is primarily around construction and during the construction phase, have there been conversations about that, or has this ever been on the table as a part of this process, abandonment of that water well? I don't believe it's ever been a consideration of staff, if I recall from speaking with our engineering department, it's possible that they could use it during construction, but it's not really something that we would regulate, they would be required to have the 12 inch water line in place before the houses could be constructed. On the ponds, one of the staff recommendations that we require that some of the ponds stay in place, do we have any requirements, are there any existing requirements in the code that the developers would have to keep those full to a certain level? I think there was some concern in the neighborhood, they're going to spend a bunch of water filling up these ponds and keeping them full all the time, is there any requirement that they do that? No sir, I believe the ponds are intended for detention, so they would be engineered to whatever capacity they need for that, but I'm not aware of any specific plans or discussions about a certain water level being maintained in the ponds. Okay, and then if I may, may I have some questions for Preetam? On the slide that we're on up here, when we're looking at mobility from kind of a top level, 50,000 foot, I understand, you know, we start drawing the parallel lines where we need them and the connections where we need them, but having some familiarity with Hartley Field Road, I'm really concerned about our intention to bring, I'll call it F, yellow line F there, whether we call that Hartley Field or something else, bringing it in where you have it there causes me a lot of concern, not only for existing homeowners, but also just traffic pattern, traffic flow. Is it not possible to do some combination of F and B where F comes up a little further north on 428 and B either ties in there at Ferris or even a little further down at Cooper Creek? Could that not accomplish basically the same purpose? So during the study we had an extensive exercise with planning. We looked at every parcel, every level and laid this out such that we were between parcels, we're not going through someone's property and slicing it in half. That was one of the things, aspect of it, but the other aspect was what is the most benefit? If you start taking it further away from loop 288, then the traffic flow pattern that you see along that street starts reducing or acting differently because of the connection to the loop 288. So there is a little bit of technical aspect to it as far as how far the spacing should be. So that's why the way these streets were laid out was based on that origin and destination distances. And I understand that. I guess what I'm asking is one, many of these parcels that we're avoiding are in the ETJ, not in city limits. We're not talking about roads that we're going to go out and start bulldozing the roadbed for anytime soon. What I'm asking is can you achieve the same purpose by kind of combining B and F there? Right now the traffic flow, people don't use Hartley Field Road to avoid 288, they use it to get back to, they may take a shorter trip to get to Ferris or Oak Bend or someplace, but they don't use it to avoid loop 288 traffic, you just stay on the loop where there's not any traffic. So could you achieve the same engineering purpose if all parcels are available and we can draw the lines where we like by kind of combining F and B and tying into Hartley Field further east like Ferris? Let me just stop you just for a second. I need to help understanding because these roads, these yellow lines, are they conceptual? This is a mobility plan that we have. So I guess I certainly want to answer the questions, but we're talking about a development that is before us today and we're looking at something and we want to plan, but I don't know if we need to spend two hours trying to figure out what we're going to do when this council is not going to be voting on that anytime soon unless we have a mobility plan update. So I guess I'm trying to figure out how can we sort of funnel in the inquiry on roads to things that we can do, I mean, not necessarily today, but in the near future, but so help me understand the connection here that's more concrete. So that really is my, I was really just kind of trying to clarify my question a little bit, but that's my last question on the subject because I think the way that we've got these kind of future roads laid out impacts the site plan of this and it also impacts, I think, the neighbors' feelings about this development. If the site plan for this necessarily, you know, if the developer comes in and lays out Hartley Field or a road in their development that matches up with F here that necessarily has to tie in in a way that impacts their neighborhood, I think that's part of the conversation. So I don't think we necessarily, like you said, need to get down into the nitty-gritty of exactly where this road is going to go in our mobility plan. I just want to make sure we know that one of the options is not driving it through some folks' houses that are there right now, and that might make them feel differently about the development. Okay. Councilmember Armitage? So I agree completely with what Councilmember Davis just said, that, you know, when we talk about, I mean, I want us to see what we can do when we've got new development coming next door to existing homes. People are already worried enough about, you know, what's going to be the effect on their own homes, and so I want to see what we can do to try to avoid, you know, running a – this is not running a highway through people, you know, but basically moving roads around through people, through where people are living in a way that changes things beyond the changes that are already kind of coming. So I would be more inclined to kind of pull again, you know, to see how the residents feel about it, but to just kind of let it be for now. And again, I understand that, you know, we're not voting on that today, but it does – if this development has been designed with this rerouting in mind, it's just something to keep in mind. I wanted to ask – it's not so much – you're welcome to answer, Preetam, about wells – but about the well, is – if the well is capped, and is that – I mean, does that change anything as far as, you know, for the plan, because I know that there was concern about, you know, using the well water for construction. Like, does that affect, as far as you know, anything in the construction plan if it were to be capped? Not that I'm aware of. I don't – and the applicant can speak to this, but I don't believe they have any plans for using it for construction water. The intent would be that they put in the public infrastructure and rely on that. Okay. Well, I mean, for me, you know, it seems that capping it would be a good way to, you know, meet those – address those concerns. Thank you. Councilmember Briggs? So what we're doing is we received an email from several of the homeowners or landowners around the property and the project, and so the questions that you hear are coming from those concerns of the people that live nearby. So that's what we're talking about – the well, the water, the road. The road is really important, especially for those that live on Hartley Field. And so I appreciate Councilmember Davis asking those questions, because for me, the future of it and how I feel about this development is pretty important. And I know that we have a thoroughfare and a mobility plan coming up for planning and public information. And so to see that yellow line there, I just – I wasn't sure if that was set in stone or if there was more conversation to be had about it. So I think the conversation is important and relevant to this development. Well, let me address that as well. If I'm not mistaken, that says "proposed future Hartley Field alignment." Where is that proposed? Is that in a mobility plan that we've approved on Council or that the public's had any input on? It hasn't started yet. We're about to start the process of updating those plans. So I don't know if this proposed is in something that we're going to look at to discuss or if it's – that's my question. Well, and that's a valid question, but – I mean, and I understand the concern about where the road is, but just because that line is up on this slide doesn't mean that's where that road's going. Not at all. This map is from a specific corridor study that was done of the FM428 area that will be a part of the mobility plan update. And whenever that comes forward, people will have an opportunity to come talk about it and so forth. So I mean, I'm not saying it's not important, but I don't want us to derail the conversation about this specific development and this road is important, but that road is not even proposed yet. That's my point. And so this conversation probably is going to go a long way to when we have that mobility plan coming back before us, where that road actually goes. So, I mean, my point isn't that it's irrelevant. I guess I just want us to make sure that we spend an adequate amount of time to get the questions answered that have been asked, but we don't have a whole lot of answers because we don't know exactly where it's going. So unless I'm – unless I have missed something, so – okay. Yep. Continue. Oh, that's it on the presentation? Yes, sir. Oh, Council Member Meltzer. Thank you. I think my question is ultimately for staff, possibly for city attorney, and just let me tell you where I'm coming from first. We have a long-term comprehensive plan for a reason. The whole community participated in it, and the plan was to grow compactly and leave some rural areas. And you've heard that referred to many times. The future land use map says this is rural. So now I'll share with you that the overlay conditions, I think, all sound great. I think it's a great achievement on the part of the parties. If it were R1, it would still be in rural character and fit the future land use map. My question is, is there even a way to conceivably express that in this procedure? Or it's like, well, this isn't about R1, so you just got to vote no if that's what you think the answer should be. City attorney? Could you repeat that because I'm trying to – The whole thing? Just how about just the part about the R1? If I think, you know, the correct answer is keep the overlay conditions, but it's R1 because of the comprehensive plan, future land use map, R1 fits with rural. You know, and I'll actually – I'll extemporize just a little further parenthetically. You know, once you stop being rural, it's really hard to ever go back to being rural. When we give up that kind of heritage, it's gone. So my question is, if I wanted there to be a condition that it be R1, which is different than the request, is there even a way to put that forward within this proceeding? Or is this sort of a yes or no on this, you know, NR2 and NR3 combination with possible conditions and that's kind of it? Typically, when a zoning request comes forward, and especially in those types of cases where a landowner is going up two or three higher and to more intensive uses, usually a leap of two or three uses up, nothing prohibits the City Council from zoning something less than what was requested. It's a different answer if you're trying to zone beyond what was requested, because that one's going to be more of an Open Meetings Act violation that you are zoning something that wasn't properly noticed in connection with the Chapter 211 of the Local Government Code, which is a zoning statute. The Council's practice in the past has been to act upon what the applicant has requested, but it is not, should I say, impossible or improper to zone as something less than what was requested. That's helpful. I want to hear all the public input, but I have an idea where my thoughts are. Thank you. One question on that, Mr. City Attorney, and maybe thinking of something else, but I recall one time when the Council was considering rezoning something other than what was requested, and the applicant objected in writing, wrote it out, put it down on the dais real-time. It's my understanding, so correct me if I'm wrong, that that requires a different . . . does that require a supermajority, or is there a different voting thing? There's something different there. I can't remember what it was. If the applicant rejects it, then they could either withdraw the application or the Council act upon the original application and deny it. If that would seem the . . . plan it out, that would be the course of what Council would probably take. Do you recall the one . . . I don't know if you recall . . . that was a long time ago. Yeah. Okay. All right. There's not any different voting requirement as far as how many affirmative votes you get if you were to approve something other than that. The supermajority vote requirement is triggered by the protest petition of the landowners that surround the property. That's a different . . . Okay. Yes. Okay. Mayor Pro Tem, did you have a question? Well, just are we . . . I really want to get to the blue cards. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. Yep. All right. So we've got . . . and a green card. We've got a card that . . . I believe this is the applicant, and it's also a group request to speak on an agenda item. Jason Fagel, if you'll come down, and Aaron, on this group request, or Madam City Secretary, there's four people listed on here. Do they get additional time? How does that work? I think it's . . . is it 20 minutes for everybody, 10 minutes for one person, or is it just 20 minutes for . . . Say that one more time, I'm sorry. It's 20 minutes for all representing the applicant. Okay. All right. So you've got four names here, and it says that they need to stand up or be identified so we can. Okay. Follow our rules. We've got Amy Bissette, Lee Allison, Todd Price, and John Heilman. Okay. Good. Thank you all very much. I appreciate that. Thank you, Mayor, Council. Jason Feigley with Allison Engineering Group. We've got the owners, developers, planners, engineers here tonight to speak a little bit more about this. Haley's done a great job introducing it and giving most of the background information, so I'll try to skip over some of the duplicates and just get into, I guess, answering a couple of initial questions. I'll just start right off with the well. The existing well there is a deep trinity well that goes into the trinity aquifer, but however, one of our original concepts was we would use it for the interment space irrigation. That was, we heard the opposition and the owners have said they'll cap it basically as before construction starts and the well will just go away, so that is not a problem at all. Well's gone. The pond levels, we'll talk about that once I get into the pond section and the arterials, same thing when we talk about our concept plan, I'll kind of get into why we have the arterials shown on our plan where it is, but that that really is a preliminary plotting issue once we get into the actual street design layout. So to back up a little bit, the original public hearing for this was back in January and that was after two neighborhood meetings last fall, summer and fall of '18. After the not so positive public hearing in January, we had two additional public hearings, one in February, one in April, and we came back with our second public hearing to planning and zoning in May. When we did that, we emphasized the alignment with the Denton plan, the 2030 vision, and we showed that we were trying to be responsive to neighborhood interests. We modified our zoning request and became responsive to our commissioner interests. We further reduced density and we have offered to memorialize open space, pocket parks and ponds. We believe our zoning request, and as Haley has mentioned, it is consistent with the adjacent zoning. We are touching NR4 on our south and west, NR6 across 428 from us. The graduated zoning that we're proposing protects the fringe from increasing density, and so our proposal of having the NR3 along 428 being wrapped with NR2 on our north and east boundaries helps set a precedent as you move away from the 288 and 428 main arterials. And this is consistent with the growth pattern across the outer loop of Denton. I'll show an exhibit here to show that. We are less than 1,500 feet from commercial zoning. We are walkable. That is about an eight-minute walk or so, seven, eight-minute walk down to the commercial zoning at the corner of 288. And to address the commissioner interests of maintaining the eastern rural character, that's what generated the NR2 wrapping along the east side of our NR3. We reduced our total lots down to 252, which is an overall density of 2.7 units per acre. Denton has seven major gateways that are identified within the Denton Plan 2030, and these gateways are shown here on this map with the green dots on the west side of 380, east side of 380, along 35 on the north side, 35E, 35W, 377, and then 428. The northeast gateway here, Alpha 428, is about six and a half, seven miles away from the square. And as you look at this map, I think this map is pretty telling of how density emanates and comes out of the center of the town, right? And our development is in this four and a half mile concentric radius point. And our NR2/NR3 fits in with the other NR2/NR3/NR4 zoning districts that you have in that four and a half mile radius. Denton Plan 2030 vision statement, this is where this graphic comes from. And again, it just shows the preferred growth kind of hotspots. And this one here by the natatorium is in that medium growth range. Vision statement of Denton Plan 2030, anticipate future housing needs as the city's population grows and align development approvals to reflect the changing housing market through a mix of housing, embracing walkability, sustainability, and conservation. We believe that our plan and rezoning to NR2/NR3 does accomplish this. As well as encouraging innovative housing development through residential development in rural areas that protects the rural character. Compact mixed use and walkable development patterns with area wide trails, greenways, green infrastructure, and mix of housing types to reflect changing demographics and housing preferences. And again, having this NR3 surrounded by the NR2, and within that we even have a couple different areas that our developers are planning to align with these goals. We're going to go ahead and move on to the next slide, and we're going to move on to the next slide. 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