Mar 27, 2024 Mobility Committee on 2024-03-27 10:00 AM

Good morning, everyone. We are here at the mobility committee. Today is Wednesday, March 27, 2024, 10 a.m. We're here in the city's council work session room. We have determined that a quorum has been reached. We are going to start with our citizens' comment on any agenda items. Have you all heard of any citizens' comments or the agenda items, okay? So we'll go to number two, items for individual consideration. MC2 -- before I start that, I do want to make a note very early on that for item D, MC24-006, we have this information that has been sent to the committee on this -- in this area. So what we're going to do is we're going to ask for you all to click on those items and get those updates there, like we have done. So we're not going to spend any time going through those visuals, but we will set it up for us to ask any questions if we have any from the committee. So going back up to item A, MC24-005, consider approval of the minutes of February 28, 2024. Do we have any -- can we get a motion for approval? >> Approve approval. >> Okay. Any second? Any second? Any second? Okay. So we've got a second that. Do we have any discussion of anything? All right. So let's get a vote for approval. Raise your hand. Okay. It's been moved and approved. MC24-007, receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the City of Denton Transportation Mobility Project status update. Good morning. >> Good morning. Let's see if I can work this. Is it on the second one? >> Second tab. >> At the top? >> Second. >> Second tab. Why didn't you say that? Okay. John Polster with Innovative Transportation Solutions. We'll be going over these projects fairly quickly today because we went through them fairly thoroughly last month and I don't want to take all of y'all's time again. Again, 35 North is a project from -- I'll show you the map from basically the Fort Worth Drive 77 -- I mean the 77 Drive impact at the -- right by the truck stop north all the way to the county line and it's being built in three phases, all of them which are funded at a little over $800 million. And you'll see the yellow is in the utility zones and mostly what we've done since we met last with y'all is updated what we are in the utilities, City of Denton is the most important, it's clear in those segments and so they are on track for their various let dates between '24 and '27 and those are in those years because that's where those dollar amounts are for those various CSJs. Just plugging away on the utilities on that. The merge, let's April 4th and it'll go from the $2.35 up to $2.77, it's about a little over $480 million and when it goes under the knife it will not be pleasant in that section of the city. And so if it goes -- when they let April 4th, when it lets April 4th, it'll probably be about 60 days before you actually see the contractor out because they have to get their contract signed, their bond documents in, mobilize and then so you'll probably start seeing them in the summer, early part of the summer, actually start putting your barricades up, your SW3P fences, your storm water prevention, that's what SW3P is, is those fences that they put up to keep the silt from coming out and so you'll see a lot of staging, a lot of moving into their sites for their offices, but probably by the end of summer you'll start to see heavy activity in the corridor. Awesome. Excuse me? I said awesome. Oh, I'm not usually getting positive feedback. No, I meant that, I'm happy. Okay, so the Mayo job, the utilities are progressing, that's the major critical path, all the utilities are on track for completion in the November timeframe, but the funding for this project is in the June 2025 let date so we probably won't be able to get that moved up, but what's also happening at the same time is your project on May Hill is scheduled to be completed around October, November, so that gives us a little bit of a reprieve and then 12 months later we come back and start all over again. And we have coordinated with TechStat since our last meeting and the county to let them know that we will be progressing the segment of May Hill between the 35 job and your Colorado project as a regional total revenue project, we'll do it like what we're doing in Lewisville, where it's different funding category, but it'll be let with the 35 project. Okay. When you say reconstruct the interchange there, will you be changing the design of that or will it just be a- Yeah, so right now it's a, I think two, three lanes go under, two through and a continuous left, and there's six lanes of traffic going over the May Hill. This will look like Luke 288, where you've got a huge interchange there and it will have 12 lanes going under, six general purpose lanes, four turning lanes, and two Texas U-turns on either end. And then we will build the ultimate section on the bridge structure, which will include the six general purpose lanes and the four toll manage lanes for the future when the toll manage lanes come through up to 380. So it'll be fairly significant. And we go all the way north to the Luke 288 intersection and at Brinker, we flip one of the frontage roads so that it goes up even with the main lanes and back down. So if you're going from exiting May Hill to get to Luke 288, you won't have to stop at the Brinker light going north. And if you exit 288 trying to get to May Hill, you won't have to stop at a light at Brinker going south. So they'll have one frontage road go to the signal, and then one frontage road go up and over and bypass the signal in both directions. Very significant improvements. Once this is done, this whole L area is going to open up. My husband just texted me and said, "Yay." You got to remember people are watching. Okay, 35W frontage roads. This is called the middle section because, like I told you last month, nobody wants to build a section from 2449 up to a railroad track because it's just basically a drainage job. Right now, there's no funding. But after this unified transportation plan is approved in August, there will be funding allocated to this project. And we will start to segment what portions of those frontage roads need to be built first. We're looking at somewhere around 188 to 204 million of the 423 million. So what we'll end up doing is finding those segments that are most critical and then build not only the frontage roads, but if there are interchanges in that particular segment that we choose, we'll build the full future grade separation in that area as well. So if we're at 2449, we'll do that; if we're at 407, we'll do that; Crawford and Robeson, we'll do that with it. And it's got a ready to let of September 2025, which means all the stuff that we need to get done is ready to go and we'll coordinate with city staff. Scott's pretty good at letting me know what he wants financially and we'll identify places to start. Did I hear you say you thought it was about 60% drainage? Is that what I was hearing? No, this segment from 2449 up, if you look at the two projects, the merge and this one, there's a gap. So when I call it 35W middle, everybody goes, "Well, it's the northern half. Why is it called middle?" Well, we're leaving that little piece out because it's just a drainage job. And so there's no development that attaches there. So the four lanes that are there will stay there. Okay. Appreciate that, thank you. So this is the 380 job from 288 out to 377. It's essentially substantially complete. They're just basically doing cleanup on some of the peripheral stuff, the pedestrian rails, the striping, some of what I call the farming, where they're putting this grass and stuff out to make it grow. And there will be daily lane closures, but essentially the six-lane divided facility is open to traffic. Yeah, so this is wrapping up. We're all done, but the dotting of the I's, and so how much delay do you think there'll be before the bypass project? Just an estimate. I'm not asking to pin you down, but are we looking at a year or a year or two, because sort of like when do we stop and start? Because that feels pretty close in the scheme of things, but not really. So I'm moving to the bypass that you were talking about, and we're looking at being environmentally clear next year. So what that means is we've got the schematic approved and the environmental process completed, and the alignment is set and established. And so what'll happen, probably starting the first part of 2025, is TextDOT will retain a firm to begin what's the right-of-way acquisition, and then depending upon how long they think that'll take, they will start utility relocations. Because when they fund the right-of-way on a project, it comes out of a different bucket than their constrained construction bucket. It's a bucket that is statewide, so whoever's fastest gets the mostest. And so North Texas is always usually the fastest. So when you get right-of-way money for a project, you also get the utility relocation dollars. So if they start the right-of-way, then right on behind that, they'll start the utility relocations. And the reason they do it staggered is because a lot of times the utilities need to be in TextDOT right-of-way, the future right-of-way, and so the state has to buy the right-of-way first for them to be able to move. So you're talking probably 27 before we actually start constructing any of this, and that's assuming I come up with $92 million somewhere, which I will when it always works out. It does, it works out. For staff, I think we just need to integrate tightly with the businesses and the residences in that corridor, so we minimize start and stop on those folks. So the other loop... Excuse me. Oh, do I... Where am I supposed to be? Go back to the bridge. Yeah. That's right there. That's good. And you can even go to the summary there, because I had a question about the summary area. Where's my mouse? This one or this one? It's the next page. That page right there. This one? Yeah. Okay. I was going to ask about the, I guess, the edge of the roadway that have those concrete barriers there. When you talk about the pedestrian rail, pedestrians are going to be able to walk across the bridge, and there is some railing that I kind of noticed, but wasn't really paying attention to. Is that the permanent railing that we're talking about? Yes. So if you're talking about the very outside... Yeah, the very outside. I would cross over the lake. Yeah. The concrete barrier there is a concrete barrier to preclude vehicles from... Right. Then on top of that, they put a ped rail, because people are taller in general than cars are. Right. So that's the ability to fall over by putting a ped rail along the concrete barrier. And how wide is that sidewalk? They're usually five and a half, six feet. Oh, is that so wide? At least five feet, but typically they're six on a state facility. And that's required. I mean, the state has been doing it lately anyway, but the feds require us to include sidewalks on everything we build. Right. That's what I'm saying. Do you think people have an opportunity to safely ride a bike across there? Is that... Have you all thought of... I can't answer that question. Is that a bike? Oh, we have the bike person. I've ridden from Mayhill along 380 just past the green belt, because I wanted to see how far it goes. And there was some railing on the outside to prevent me from falling in the water that was still incomplete. It was just wood. And you could tell they weren't done with that yet, but yeah, I mean, it's a little uncomfortable because fast traffic, but I mean, yes, I can get to the... They can get to the green belt at this point. On the north side, there's a 10 foot shared use path from 288 all the way to the green belt. And that was something that the city was very instrumental in getting done. Okay. So that's pretty nice. And there is like a little driveway that people use to fish. For fishing. It's still there. Is that going to be affected by any of this project at all? They reconstructed it. I'm not sure what that driveway's for. It may be a Corps of Engineers access point, but it was there when the project started, so they had to put it back. Okay. And yeah, just starting at the middle of March to about the middle of April is when the sand bass run, and that's why you see all those vehicles up there. Pecan Creek's running right behind my house, and so people are always cutting through my property to get to the creek on the Corp. That's how I know when the fish start running, when people start trespassing. And the other thing is that median, I may have asked this question last month and forgotten the answer, but that median is just the same color as the roadway and at night. Is there going to be any kind of improvement or some breaks or something? That median is the median. I don't know if the city has, I'll have to go look to see if the plans call for any kind of aesthetic. Recreation. Right. A lot of times the city will come in with some of that paystone, but I don't think that this project has that, but I can go look. But no, it's what you see out there, if it's the middle of the road, that this project is essentially complete, so what you see is what's going to be there. Okay. I just thought it was just a little bit, you know, it was just too, the aesthetic was just too simple, you know, for someone that never drives through that way, but, you know, people that are around here that drive back and forth that way, we know there's a very wide median there. Right. But anyway, that's just my thought. Anybody else have any other questions? Striping? Okay. All right. Well, thank you for that. So the other 288 is the western portion, and essentially we are in the middle of acquiring a right-of-way on this project, advancing the PS&E on this project. We had a little bit of an environmental modification down here for Underwood that's progressing properly and we coordinated with the city and the property owners out there. And so this project is just two frontage roads, north and southbound. We're looking at somewhere around a little over $220 million. We would do great separations at the railroad track and at 380 initially. And then in the future, we'd have to find out where the other ones are consistent with the city's thoroughfare plan. And we are looking at it being ready about this time in two years from now. And again, I keep saying this every time I talk, you'll see that this timeframe is a lot longer than the other ones I've shown you. And that the reason is because of all of the gas wells out there and the transmission lines that we have to deal with. Any questions on that one? And then we just talked, we can talk more about this one if you want. I've given Scott the schematic, preliminary schematic for this area. He and his staff are analyzing that and when I guess at some point we'll come and bring all that to you guys to go over, jot until chapter and verse on it to make sure we're all swing on the same side of the plate. We've got a question. Is that between the two of you, is that the same schematic that you used in the presentation last night? No. You'll see a new one. Okay. Yeah, for this, I'll just prelude my comment on this one and the outer loop in general comment. I'm not asking you to skip to it. I would really love to see all the proto-alignments. If the combination of the group could get those, I mean I know there might be 12 of them and six of them have almost no probability but I would love to see the alignments as they've been trimmed down from where they were in the past for both the bypass and the outer loop just because the questions are endless and there's no ability to get in front of it at all and even if you're trying to mitigate fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the people, even if you do what you do is put a big cloud on it and say we're not sure, that's actually making it worse. That's not me that's doing that. The thinking was if I show the 22 alignments that are because the federal process says if somebody says in this stage of the process why don't you go across the dam on Ray Roberts, you got to put a line on a map and tell them why that won't work because the court won't let you touch their dam but you got to put it on and then take it off. Right now if I was to put all the alignments that have been suggested by all of the civil engineers that live in the northern part of your city and county, it would look like that green blob so we just did the green blob so that there's no there there until and we're down to seven and they're really not seven, they're two alternatives that have different meandering on the ends because we have certain criteria we have to hit for the court to hit so we can get you that it's a at the staff level that's okay to communicate but every time we show alignments that are that are we're just suggested to us that we have to go run the matrix on every time we show that we add to the confusion and what the and that's because the federal choir what we're trying to do is minimize that yeah that silliness. I appreciate that and so if the either me or the committee in general I think if we could get that I would I would love to to see those yeah and there's literally I think in the next in what time is it in about five minutes there's a Denton County Outer Loop meeting fixing to start that my staff's going to so there we're meeting almost every week on that project because there's some some some well if I knew you'd be I'd say some rat to kill but I won't say that there's something we got to get dealt with on that project so it's easy enough to bring it to the staff or to to elected officials but just we don't want to broadly distribute it yet because it most of it's inaccurate by design so Luke 28 basically a frontage road job the main lanes are there and we're looking at it cleared in July so you're talking probably two years after that 27 before we have a chance to start it and we got to get the money and text that really wants this road as well and so do y'all because that way you can push truck traffic completely out of your downtown area and everything I just told you is basically what's in the yellow there okay so again Bonnie Bray is a segment right here we just show it separately because we're funding it with federal dollars and state dollars and not city dollars but it's one of y'all segments that you call Bonnie Bray segment 7 and then 1515 we're just punching the clock we're getting trying to get ready to let summer next year and it's a you know it's only 34 million so shouldn't be too hard and this is another one where we've designed it the way the city wants and the reason I think this project will let sooner than later is because it's a brand spanking new road 10 inches of asphalt you know maybe seven inches of asphalt like 10 inches of concrete so it's a very good road and the city has suggested that in the future they would be willing to take it off system as long as it was reconstructed that way you can manage it because there's a lot of big businesses out here and you're constrained to know what you can do with that road while it's on system but once you build it to six lanes divided you get you know 40-year life concrete then you take it off system and manage it the way you want that's going to be really really nice that is a very very useful idea whoever came up with that idea I certainly do applaud them because that's a very busy tight road in there have you all been in been over through that seeing those roads I always get stuck at the frontage road and the bridge those people coming out are not nice working all day they want to get home yeah I 1173 this project is going to be ready you know February 25 we are in the process of completing utilities we're going to be focusing again from the rural track back east to include in the 35 job so that'll adjust the cost of the project once we take that in to the bigger 35 project and we are coordinating with crumb on some issues with their historic downtown area but as long as they make up their mind we'll be able to help them outer loop again we are looking at summer 26 to be completed essentially there are three alignments with dangling parciples on either end that we have to look at and we'll get you we'll get something set up through Scott and everybody to get a briefing on it so you'll know because literally it's Salina Aubrey Krugerville and Denton are the critical stakeholders other than the county which is driving the boat and then text up in the car so it's important that we keep you guys in the loop and Alma Locus starts supposed to let project has been awarded so they're saying it should take what's the there are 118 working days eight months of barricades so they think it's eight months and we're coordinating on the pre-con meeting so I drive that road all the time and it's embarrassing it's very bad and every time I would drive down that road I think about you I don't have kidney stones because I always and that's my report right are there any additional questions before we move on thank you John okay well we'll move on to see em see two four days zero zero one receive a report and hold a discussion regarding bike lanes a practical perspective on the u.s. best practices bike lane apparently they already have your exhibits on tab already morning chair morning committee members morning for last few months transportation services division received a lot of requests regarding bike lanes and we're responding to them all and this presentation is basically a summary of collective inquiry on from all of those requests and and we just try to split it into three sections where we will have introduction of best u.s. best practices and then we'll also talk about jurisdictional perspectives on how we are in Texas and all as well as in city of Denton how we are dealing with bike lanes and then also briefly I'll talk about what's the way forward and how we how transportation services division and city of Denton is looking at bike lanes when it comes to future implementations and planning so the u.s. best practice groups the bike lanes into four distinct types including conventional bike lanes buffered bike lanes contra flow and left side bike lanes when it comes to conventional bike lanes that's the standard practice that's all over u.s. most cities have these types of bike lanes they are basically on both side they could be provided on both sides of the directions on the on any given facility and some of the demerits are that they have little buffer when it comes to the separation between door zones on right side or left side car parkings as well as and the bikers so that essentially means that the bikers would be very close to the door zones and in many cases if the drivers or the users of vehicles are not careful they would just open the door and could cause an incident another issue is that they have minimum buffer between the modes of travel where these could possess challenge for the bikers where they are too close to the other modes of travel especially I've seen in many cases if there's a multimodal environment large buses or trucks would be passing very close in a very close proximity to the bikers and posing the risk factor simply increases so another so this is just a basic design or some of the design not if not complete design sketch for for these lanes but some of the key things include that their width should be six feet and I've seen wider as well but in certain locations but six feet is a minimum and then signage is is one of the most important aspect it should be complying to the TM UTCD and generally MUTCD requirements are 317 and then there are you know the striping should be in particular is very important as well where six to eight inch solid line wide line and four inch solid line on the right side. Most of US cities have these types of bike lanes and they're you know widely used all over US. Another type of bike lanes widely used in US is buffered bike lanes they are I think their main advantage is that they have wide buffer between mode of travels and also they provide some buffer between the door zones on the parking side so as you can see before I go to the design stage I would just mention their demerits as well one of the challenge with these bike lanes is the buffer because the buffer is necessary by design the implementation is a challenge in areas where which are built out and they don't have as much capacity available. Another issue is that they restrict the right of way for future expansions for instance if you are to expand a facility then buffer would become a problem either you'll have to curtail it or you'll have to redesign it or retrofit it. When it comes to design some of the key features include that buffer shall be clearly marked it should be with two solid lines and if the extra width is available then buffer could also be cross hashed three feet is general and I've seen a little bit wider as well and then the separation between the parking and bike lane is also would also have a six to eighteen sometimes a foot of buffer I've seen 12 inch of buffer I've seen as well. These kind of buffered bike lanes they are readily used in Austin Texas when we are talking about best practices in Cape Coral Florida I've seen myself because I've lived there for some time and also New York City and Phoenix Arizona and Tucson Arizona some of the cities but there are other cities we could list Contra bike lanes I have a question about that if you would allow me the green over to the side yes and so is that required to go all the way through or not and why do some cities use green or is there other colors or how does that I'm seeing maybe dark green some places so it changes I mean for instance the color is there to reflect conflicts conflict zone this would this does not show completely but likely in this picture the message is that there was an intersection or some kind of conflict there maybe a bus stop or something that shows that okay you know this zone should bikers and other users other mode users should be careful so in many cases for example in Contra flow bike lanes you would see that there is there you know the crossings between the intersections they are colored because the Contra flow would go in the other direction as well so wherever we see use of color it is to highlight the conflict okay with other modes thank you and they could vary in I mean it could be green I've seen red as well if for example in Austin they have different color as well they have been using different colors thank you oh you have another question no I appreciate the chair bringing this up because I have a similar question and it's it's kind of scanned through the criterion manual it wasn't clear to me when when we color our conflict zones and when we don't in the city of Denton and and so if we can either address that at some point in the presentation or or get back to us later I would appreciate understanding more you know when we just strike versus when we paint I'll partially address it in this presentation and then we could circle back on details if you have more questions on that thank you okay so on Contra flow bike lanes basically provide in if the facility is one one way and then if we have additional capacity available we could provide bike lanes on the opposite direction and use the capacity I think the advantage of these lanes these bike lanes is that instead of rerouting the bikers to another facility just because this is a one-way road bikers could get an edge and they just could traverse through the facility on the dedicated bike lane and don't have to traverse through many blocks to get to the right direction the merits include implementation limitations in built-up areas again you know because they are capacity constrained they have capacity capacity issue and then also may restrict right of way for future expansions as well in fact you know in many cases they would just block any expansion possibilities because then you have to eradicate the remove the the bike lane and then expand on design side both options are available if if the bike lane is present on the direction on the direction of the flow then we could depending on the availability of space we could provide buffer between the traffic regular movement and the bikers on the opposite direction as you can see in this case and if and then also we could have the shared lane markings for instance if the if there's capacity issue and there on the on the in the direction of the flow we have capacity constraints we could use shelves to provide sharing possibilities lane sharing possibilities for the bikers but it also depends on the speed we have to be careful in making sure that you know when we are mixing bikers with the regular traffic flow we have to make sure that they're safe and these are left side bike lanes these are I call them half contra flow that means is that they are against the flow but on one side only and this you would see those in the in New York or larger cities where we have a lot of traffic congestion and and heavy usage of highway facilities and then you know the bike lane is provided on the left side only and for the design standard it's pretty much same there which is similar to the regular bike lanes except they are provided they have you know their direction is they are typically not on the right side but on the left side of the of the flow and of course the signage is needed on the right side there are some examples we have Chicago Portland and San Francisco where they are being used there there's a big list I just selected some of the cities which I thought that I'll just mention let me ask you a question about that yes you have a question and I've seen this in large cities like that and I've always had a question ever in this regards that right turn so you have that bus only with with with an entity allow a right turn at all on this road or is this this is a straight road or a right turn when you oh look it's probably a right turn you know whenever you can something going on over here yeah it's a selective it's a selective approach on certain intersection the right right turn would be allowed for example you see this green striped area or marking that's a crossing indication so typically what happens is that there are there are traffic flow crossings and there are biker crossings so they are dedicated you know alternate their alternate crossings and in this case probably next next one or next two crossings would be bikers crossing and then this green striping would just continue or our color striping would continue until they reach the right turn crossings and then and they be able to make the right turn so basically the just like a detour they are provided a mechanism colored mechanism to take the right turn okay okay all right yes ma'am I just wanted to add for the sake of the rest of the committee members another demerit on all of these is they're not protected and so what I've learned seems to be a worldwide phenomenon is if somebody can put their car there they will so if we spend a bunch of money on something that people can just easily park in there for or stop in there for any period of time it kind of makes the bike lane unusable and so we've spent all that money in time and it's not even usable or in some cases people can get killed when they have to go around a vehicle that's in the bike lane so just something to keep in mind that's true so other bike lanes include the diamond striping with bike signs where these would not be continuous they would just come and go as the application basically is to provide bikers a continuous flow because in many cases they are using multi-use path and are on the side not on the road bike using on the road bike biking facility then they would be given on certain spots they would be given opportunity to if the trail or the multi-use path could not continue they would just be given our opportunity to on street bike lane partial bike lane to get to get through that segment of the road where the multi-use path is not available and then get back on the multi-use path and then we have sharos typically they are on the residential streets but one caution with these is that when whenever we use share we recommend that we allow full usage of bike lane or full usage of the lane traffic flow lane the reason is that in many cases drive as you could see in this image as well there are drive access points there are driveways in residential areas and if there are multiple of them approaching the roadway it is recommended that you know we put a signage that says full lane will be used by the bikers just to provide them extra protection and we have other concepts as you know full colored lanes but there are different ideas for example Austin is using color mixed in in pavement material and then they are using utilizing that that's a very that's interesting idea that's very good one other cities are partially coloring them all of those opportunities are available and they could be used to enhance biking culture and biking environment in the in the cities shared use paths are another one our city is using as well and then yes and the idea is that we could provide not only pedestrians but bikers 10 foot to in some cases 12 foot as well a way of paths where they could just use the facility instead of being on the high speed or relatively high speed road and but they're they are exploited in many cases because if we don't provide a guidance on our striping on the on this side use path then it poses risk to the pedestrian versus bikers versus micro mobility users which are operating at different speeds so one caution is that whenever we are we are now making sure that through the review process we highlight this back to the developers that these look into this aspect and and provide the striping and then we have trails as well which are there and then they could also be used by all users so quickly in the interest of time I'll just be quick on this one so we go to the state of Texas perspective and city of Denton perspective quickly on this and you had a question yes I had a question in regards to the various colors that are used in Austin yes did you all kind of research as to why they would use various colors it seemed like for me monochromatic I mean just the same color throughout the city would you know get the folks to understand when they see this particular color then it means something a bit more I'm just not understanding why would a city use various colors and I'll let you address that if you want to but I know that the city of Austin worked with the Dutch embassy so the Netherlands is considered one of the top places for biking you've got you've got all sorts of people doing young old women children and so they worked with the Dutch embassy the Dutch embassy came to Austin and worked with them Austin elected and leadership went to the Netherlands to look at it and so they're sort of working closely with the Dutch embassy to try to create a low stress bike route and so that's kind of where the red came from because that's sort of what they do in the Netherlands oh okay but that's lower maintenance in the long run if you just mix it in the asphalt like that so the paint we have to keep maintaining repainting every three five years yeah oh so it's mixed in the asphalt it is and so they are last article that I'd read a few weeks back they would be sticking to red color that's what my understanding is they are not changing the colors anymore yeah it's kind of like slow down people so this is for the jurisdiction from just jurisdiction standpoint this is the tech starts bicycle accommodation design guide basically that that reflects this method or this approach where they are highlighting where we could use shared bike and bike lane separate buffered and separated bike lane or shared use path and you would just one one observation that is important here is that you would just see that by 35 miles per hour speed basically any type of bike lane vanishes if the facility is higher than 35 miles per hour on on road bike lane is poses too much risk for the bikers unless it is separated made exclusive bike lane to some separate separation measure so that's the I think if that's the crux of this this graph that we are seeing here and exhibit that we are seeing here other than that you know the for bridge replacement and rehabilitation they go with minimum five-foot clear space and then for the trails and Texas bicycle tourism trails they go for 10-foot general or minimum eight-foot okay are we including regional standards as well so for example the North Central Texas Council of Governments has their VeloWeb 2045 I think and so for routes through Denton that are part of the VeloWeb they're recommending 12 to 14 feet of width so some kind of ongoing projects we have in Denton that are included in the VeloWeb are Mayhill which I think is 10-foot but the new part we're doing is still 10-foot it's not that 12 to 14 and then Mingo which I don't think it's finalized yet but I think it looked like we were maybe doing 10-foot for that one and that's part of the VeloWeb as well and that's also part of the Texas tourism trail so I looked that up and I did see the Texas tourism trails does recommend 12 to 14 feet for their routes so I'm curious if we're sort of incorporating also NCT cog and at least trying to hit like yes they said 10-foot minimum but 12-foot is a lot better so the rail trail is really narrow and so it just feels a lot more likely a crash would happen especially if it's a busier route so I'm just kind of curious if we're incorporating regional and look we are looking into that aspect as well but you know when it comes to cities guidelines on multi-use path and I would just say side box as well so the standard I mean the approach is for now is 5 feet for residential and then 10 feet for other functional classifications so that's a simple answer but at other places we have recommended 12 feet as well, 8 feet as well depending on it's actually design context I mean contextual design where the facility is being designed and what other what the environment is and if it is a built out area then of course there are constraints so we are looking into that for our next study that we are going to have for bike lane feasibility and shared mobility feasibility study we will look into all of these aspects okay and so we have another question here yes yeah no on this chart most of most of our residential speeds are 30 so we're immediately pretty much requiring some sort of separation some sort of mechanism you know where we no longer yet yet I say that yet that we have sharos in a lot of these 30 30 mile an hour zones so I guess my question goes to how do we how do we integrate our residential speeds that are 5 miles over the safety you know the vanishing point there look for the essential street there's a challenge the challenge is that we have so many drivers yes I give you example of Ryan Ryan road what was that road there was a facility that we are looking at the request came from one of the I think council members we were looking at that facility Riney Road by the highest Riney Road no no it was a different facility Montecito yes thank you so Montecito we were looking at that facility we audited that and we found that there are so many drive access points and if we put a bike lane right next to these drive access points where where residents are mostly reversing their vehicles to come out of the driveway and not aware of if the biker is coming at what speed and let let's not talk about that but I think that's a serious safety risk then I ended up referring to to a I think it's a county county associations standards on bike lanes and they are cautioning on that as well I also looked at TRB resources design standards they are cautioning on that as well that be careful on allowing bike lanes in residential streets where so many drive access points are there so that's why I think the recommendation is that we use Sharos with signage that full bike lane could be used that provides full protection to the bikers because they could they don't have to be now on the edge of the road they could just use one full lane yes and then the other side is that there would be differential speeds but expectation is that they're in residential streets the speeds are relatively lower I have a fault on this but I'll wait till the end of the presentation and it's the exactly this point but on Old North okay okay we can discuss after them okay I want to discuss more so the last one is Denton mobility we in on our end in the city we have Denton mobility plan bicycle plan we have Denton transportation criteria manual and development codes and standard I'll show you I just mentioned that the five foot sidewalks and ten foot multi use path is pretty much that's what we are looking at right now unless until we have our study done and then we will be able to update that and then this is the sketch of the standard details document where it shows that this is five feet sidewalk for residential streets and for collectors it is ten feet and I could cities mobility plan is referring to a basic information on on bike lanes and through this transportation services division is planning to launch a shared mobility feasibility study now and based on that we will be able to make many updates will be informed based on not only the best practice but also other other reference information as well so this is a way forward for us we are planning for bike lanes as one of the priorities here in the city transportation services division is working on the participation of bike lanes as we speak we are planning to develop localized standards for four distinct types clearly stating where we could use each one of those and enhance the transportation criteria manual as well for bike lanes and their designs and also we appreciate City Council's considerations for on street bike lanes standards as well and interest as well if you have any more questions I could come so we'll start here and we'll just so what's the city's thinking on raised crosswalks because for example the Mayhill side path there are points where when if you're driving in your car and you're crossing the side path you come up to meet the side path so it's like you have a bump kind of before you potentially hit somebody and I think that visually you know kind of slows people down they don't want that bumpy ride as they turn their car so they'll slow down and be more careful crossing that and at other points it's not the side path comes down to meet the road is there a standard for that decision or for now the design the standard is that we consult first thing is that we consult our fire department and their guidance on that is their equipment is not geared to traverse through these bumps or or tables or there are many forms they come in so that's why I know that the standard practice that we are following now is that at least we just say as long as fire department is not buying that we will not go with in that direction but there are other uses to avoid that kind of situation there are high lighters flashlights that glow as soon as the as soon as the pedestrian or biker is crossing that they are in use in elementary schools as well in the neighborhoods and they are successfully used in many areas because they provide some kind of caution to the road users drivers. Thanks for this presentation Farhan I'm glad to see you all are working on it and I really appreciate that I did want to ask about or maybe just comment on the five foot sidewalk recommendation I haven't ever seen that recommended as a bike accommodation anywhere and I haven't seen that really count for anything in terms of like becoming a bicycle friendly community with the League of American Bicyclists. People can use the sidewalks especially when they're really nervous but I'm certified to teach bike safety classes and we're taught to tell people to stay off the sidewalk in most cases because there's obstacles there's pedestrian conflicts drivers aren't looking for you there and they don't expect somebody traveling that fast so I certainly don't want anybody in the room to think that you know sidewalks is a bike accommodation and I definitely don't want to send that message because I haven't seen cases where that's true. Yes they are not and but the violations are there yeah because of the desperate situations the bikers could get in I mean if you ride on 50 miles per hour facility or 40 miles per hour facility versus sidewalk so they will end up choosing sidewalk yeah so that's the situation and then in other cases these sidewalks now standard five foot sidewalk are now being converted to multi-use paths and therefore for a good reason because you know this should not be I apologize I called it violation it is actually not a violation we are forcing them to do that so I think in this case when the multi-use path is provided that essentially means that we are providing a dedicated pedestrian walkway and as well as a space for bikers as well they could ride the bike safely any other questions I have more but we can go over there whatever you do in terms of the transportation criteria manual update if y'all aren't already considering this if y'all could include considerations for design speed so like the Mayhill side path has some sharp turns that seem to think that everyone's walking rather than maybe moving a little more quickly so you know gentle curves things like that and then also considering non-standard bicycles so we have families in town with cargo bikes which are long and a bit wide and maybe not as maneuverable so I know this wasn't the city but like on the DCTA rail trail they installed some z-gate crossings at the crossings and those are really hard for somebody on a cargo bike or pulling kids in a bike trailer so if that could be included in the transportation criteria manual updates too. Yes we are looking into that as a matter of fact we are conducting vision zero phase two implementation effort and one of the first requirement for safe systems approach and vision zero is to load the speeds and to look into well not load the speed but to review the speeds so we will do that and as part of that process and then to that transportation criteria manual and add it as an addendum so that is there and then of course for bike lanes we are looking we are going to look at holistically through this shared mobility study that we are planning to launch. And when I just to clarify when I said design speeds I meant for the side path so considering how quickly somebody on a bicycle travels versus walking and those standards should be different between sidewalk and like a shared use path or something. Okay we will look into that no issues. And only other thing on transportation criteria manual and it looks like you all are already thinking about it but where possible maybe we can consider intersection markings to suggest oh there is a bike lane coming through here stuff like that. Sure that will be that is already we are already reviewing that in process. I had a question in regards to I guess the bumps speed bumps that's the basic term for them and the use of those in HOAs is it are HOAs exempt from getting fire truck permission standards. In my understanding if it becomes a public road which is maintained by city then they are not they will have to be abiding by the city's code and there are some examples where they requested there is at least two there are two examples where we visited and audited the site and they were requesting certain changes but then we found out that the essential services and fire service would not be able to reach to the community or will have difficulty because the equipment is very sensitive to bumps and it will probably damage their shocks or whatever equipment is there to make them because the water load is so much that the shocks won't be able to take it. So that's why I think in many cases if it becomes a public facility later on cities maintaining it then yes cities code will apply. Okay and if it is a private then they could they can do what they need to do okay. And so when we're talking about bike lanes and we have those vehicles those bikes that also turn into motorbikes they could be bikes and then they can be motorbikes yes how is the how is the the standard I guess so a person won't get a ticket you know if they're on a motorcycle you know the bike is turned into a motorcycle bike am I saying that right ebikes that's it how does the the law allow a e-bike in a bike path or are they now required to be on the street? They are called micro mobility options but they are since their speeds are faster they are not considered usable at even at multi-use path they are to be used in well there is no there's no criteria right now because it's a new tech newer technology and and cities are trying to absorb it but they are typically allowed on road and due to differential speed speeds they are not allowed on multi-use path I can add to that okay so I know at the state level they did identify three classes of ebikes and so it depends some of them you don't have to pedal at all some you have to pedal to keep going and they all have a cap on the speed that they are allowed to go otherwise if they go faster than like 28 miles an hour something like that then it becomes a different type of vehicle all together and so those are not ebikes anymore so ebikes are going to be about 28 miles an hour or below and cities could as far as you know mac or somebody can correct me but cities have the ability to if they want to say I mean we can set speed limits on paths if we want to so if that's the concern because some people might have a nicer bike they can go a little faster and if we want to still allow them to use that path but we don't want them going 28 miles an hour we could say 20 mile per hour speed limit on this path or something like that but the challenge with that is that the users they would just take their liberty assuming that oh I'm not going to be faster and my mode is the ebike I'm using is not as fast so there is a bit of challenge so for now I think I know that cities are allowing on street and multi-use path wherever I've seen there are many speed related issues that are coming and we'll have to face those issues as well at some point. That's why we are recommending that we have we clearly stripe pedestrian versus bikers area. I think class 2 is less than 28 miles an hour I think class 2 is I may be wrong Susie is the expert class 2 I believe is up to 20 miles with the motor and up to 28 miles with motor and pedaling and I'll just throw in that I ride a electric ebike around that's the brand name electric and during my rides with Susie who does not use ebikes she is faster than me. I'm a big huge dude and my ebike does not get up to 28 miles per hour poor motor cannot push my weight. We could circle back as well if we need more information. Circle back. Okay but thank you so you had some other questions so a couple of questions relating to sort of these this where modes cross we haven't really addressed sort of raised crosswalks they don't they don't have to be a speed bump but just raised that that can not necessarily throw out the shocks of emergency vehicles but or inhibit them but clearly an engineering difference at an intersection what's what's what do we say about those kinds of changes. If you need details on that I would just definitely research it and then and get back to you and circle back to you in the next mobility committee meeting. Yeah we could look into what what design requirements they have and what what different types are there. I appreciate that so then I'll add on to that slightly and that is I mean yeah I understand speed bumps because they're what six inches or whatever above the road grade but speed cushions are an inch or two they often have emergency vehicle tracks in them you know our rumble strips are what are they three-quarters of an inch or something they're not throwing anybody's you know vehicles out of alignment but they are clearly creating an engineering response to speeds and and and different use conflicts so I if we could include some updates about the use of those those lower height uses we will have to have that as well we will do that I just want to point out that something like that does exist in the city of Den on central village drive in a neighborhood off of south 77 there is kind of the intersection that's at the entrance to their neighborhood that's entirely raised and so you just go up like two or three inches into the intersection and that kind of signifies hey you're entering or leaving the neighborhood speeds need to change and then it just dips off on the other side of the intersection. That's on central village off of south 77 yeah yeah and just on the end on those bollards are on those intersection conditions and separation issues I love that y'all are being really proactive and sort of experimental on Hector and Old North and Parkway please continue to do that but then I'm going to pass along questions as we do these sorts of use separations and intersection separations it is a almost a weekly question of when we did our bollards on Old North where we're trying to manage the the park/sharrow and buffer combination why why I guess the question is bollard placement what's what's the goals and criteria and for bollard placement because one of the things that pops up on Old North all the time is why is the furthest in bollard the furthest towards the intersection rather than the other way around because they have displaced bollards that ends up making all the cars clip them and y'all are always out on an engaged dent ticket putting a new bollard in like you know it's a weekly occurrence kind of thing so we might save a little cash and but if there's an engineering reason and and so I guess the general question is engineering wise what are the standards and we can get back to that in the future for for bollard placement then but then specifically for Old North why why are we doing it in that way we will let me audit that area and then I'll get a circle back again with more information on that item as well I appreciate that thank you that's all you know while you while you all are talking I'm thinking that they're probably placed that way to encourage people to slow down when they're making those turn and that may be because people want to cut short big wide turns and you know you don't want to clip a cyclist I have suggested that to people but I have to come back and say I'm not a road engineer and I don't know that that's the reason that he did it yes ma'am only final comment I wanted that was not related to that but sort of I guess I I know in past staff have considered but maybe not looked into fully the possibility of us becoming either a member or an affiliate of the National Association of city transportation officials and I saw you showed us a lot of pictures from their site so you know I'd love us to look into the possibility of maybe becoming more involved with them maybe adopting some of their standards which you were showing us on the screen some Texas member cities are Austin Houston and San Antonio and then some affiliates are Fort Worth and El Paso so I noticed those are all larger cities so I don't know what it entails to get more involved with them but maybe you know we'll have this discussion get started in our division and I think probably we'll have to discuss with Scott as well and Cassie about that thank you any other questions any other questions all right thank you so much it is a little bit after 11 o'clock so we're gonna just kind of spend this time just kind of perusing through some of these topics here and if there's any of you all that have any any questions regarding anything that you see listed that's written out this is your opportunity to ask questions question and answer time yes sir so on the item for the interchange of near sage oak 382 a interchange we discussed the completion of the side paths along sage oak up up to the 7-eleven up to the intersection and then I think we're nearly complete from the from odb to the south but there may be some gaps but there's one notable gap and that's on our own property at the old DME staging field and and so I guess the general question is for this entire thing is could we get some follow-up information about us where we are at stitching the entire side path pathway together sure Trevor crane director of capital projects so that project is almost completed with design and so we won't be completing all of those gaps filling in the entire entire section all the way from 380 down to McKinney and that's going to include lighting or not include light not lighting for that section though sir okay oh while he's looking for the other question I have a question in regards to land ownership and responsibilities and sidewalks are just a for clarification most of the time when there's not a sidewalk that's that that land is owned by private people and then we run into a public space like you know our shelter area what is the obligation of us you know requiring them to you know feeling in or it sounds like we're taking on the responsibility for feeling in for private spaces is that what I'm hearing sure so a couple of different things there typically if it's a private you know private landowner if they come in to develop that then that will be a part of the development process we will require them to put in and make that connection put in that sidewalk as a part of the development if we get to a point to where we're wanting the city is wanting to connect that such as along 28 then we will come in and buy that property and connect that ourselves so it's kind of a timing issue depending on if we if we want to wait for the development to come in and do it for us or if we come in and purchase that property and make that connection similar to what we're doing on McKinney filling in those spots and then a long loop to 88 so it really comes down to a timing issue as to kind of who gets there first and where we want to how we want to move that forward I know that that there's been discussion on at the City Council level in regards to McKinney Street between Woodrow and 288 and so I understand that there you all were going to design some kind of pathway but we still have private landowners out there with those extend over across this will be one of the things that you're talking about extending that pathway across their property correct so that project was approved as part of our CIP last year the McKinney sidewalks and so it's currently under design and we will be if we're evaluating the sections that are private property and so if we need to go purchase right away to make those connections we will as a part of that project but that's currently under design right now and I'm just asking that question you know for the folks out there that you know they just don't know that hey when the land is not developed the city is not going to come and put necessarily come and put a file correct but in this case for Luke 288 you know the traffic is just astounding you know between you know in in these areas so you know I appreciate the the opportunity for us to do that right and that's one of those things that we consider as a part of that that PPI score that how we evaluate sidewalk sections so we call them goat paths but you see where people are actually traversing in the in the grass and so those are those are one of the things that we take into account as we evaluate those different sections of sidewalk thank you so much yes ma'am yes for for the staff member and in part of this do you want all the questions now or just the staff member in the questions I just want the staff member random questions right here okay so then my last question on that before we get to the I mean I'm sorry let me let me tricks and everything together no I'm just trying to get through the part that's written here that's a staff memorandum part yeah that's what I want to do yeah yeah I did have one more for this section okay and I appreciate the the clarity that we had on that lying in landscaping for construction projects the next of one of the last sections of the response but from the the goals of that that was about landscaping goals for given the limitations that we have but still the goals that we wish to attain the if we looked into and it came up today in both talking about bike paths in coloring the the asphalts themselves and I've sort of hinted at it in earlier meetings but are we investigating any heat island mitigation areas where we can't control the street trees for one reason or another but we still wish to attain our sustainability goals are we looking at pavement additives in those areas that are more reflective better you know you know less heat island inducing yeah so I'll say we're definitely starting to get into that so we're always looking at new technologies different things that you can you know add into concrete or you know even for drainage there's permeable pavement and things of that nature so that it all kind of ties in to you know our sustainability initiatives those type of from that department so those are absolutely things that we're looking at I don't think we have any projects where we've initiated are incorporated into that yet but as we start looking through those items working with our different stakeholders to see you know what those things are how if they still meet the specifications and standards that we're trying to meet those are absolutely conversations we're having with those different stakeholders as we as we design these projects I appreciate that I think there's sometimes we can kill the same bird with a different stone absolutely yeah we're always open to looking at new and new and that's not very sustainable of me I'm sorry about that I get to hear that all the time with my last name you're going to kill two birds with one stone yeah look at it see he's the main one look out his lap minor just clarification question so on neighborhood 5b and I have three questions total um a neighborhood 5b it says that the construction timeline is about a year and a half to me that sounded short for drainage and streets so I just wanted to clarify that's the drainage and the street one and a half years it is so um 5b let me make sure I'm not going to confuse it with the oakland oakland yes so 5b is a part of the 2019 bond package um oakland drainage is was approved as part of the 2023 bond since it's all kind of combined together we we're going to put those projects together I'll put it out as a seamar um yes that time it is both um there are some other things we're considering right now with the retention pond and some other conversations so that timeline may change but as of right now we're moving forward with the current timeline that we sent forward or that we presented here and that that is correct okay thank you my other question is what is seamar I haven't heard that one before so seamar is a is actually stands for construction manager at risk it is a project delivery method the main difference in that versus kind of the other ways that we deliver projects is instead of waiting until we get to 100 percent design and then bidding it out to a contractor we're actually bringing a contractor in at zero percent and having them help us design those projects so bringing in their expertise kind of identifying risk helping with value engineering those types of things typically it's used for you know larger projects that have a lot of complexities to it so it made a lot of sense to use it in this with that drainage piece and kind of the environment and those types of things that we're going to be delivering this project in so just a different type of project delivery method thank you and then my final question is on the interchange 380 slash loop 288 I think that's on the other page I read it and I was a little unclear is tech stock planning to build side paths as part of the project so yeah this question came up actually about some escrow issues and then some sidewalk issues to build that so text dot we talked with text dot they don't currently have any any money in escrow or anything I actually spoke with these residents and they were not as sure that the escrow was taken they had some turnover they were mainly concerned about the sidewalk being placed from 380 down to down to McKinney and so that that's actually a city of Denton project that we are delivering so the city is putting in side paths yes correct text not doing that no even though they allegedly do or is the timeline just not right on that for them to the time yeah that that project was already already completed all right thank you that's it yes ma'am okay um did you have any questions uh I am don't have any particular questions uh my my questions are it my primary question is and if you just explain to us how does a city or state or county make a decision to put trees in medians I may have even asked this question before to put trees in medians and lights in medians and or not how does how is that determined is it and are trees more aesthetic or is it more environmental so I can only speak to the city portion of that okay um so that's dictated by our criteria manuals and so I think trees definitely have multiple reasons why you would put it in one is aesthetics you know it looks it looks great for um you know being out there but also heat islands things that um you know co-chair uh back brought up um I didn't yeah so you I mean you know because you know because some areas can be very dark correct with no trees or anything and then some areas are beautifully lit with or without trees you know and that could be just any space on any street why why why not the consistency of even just aesthetically aesthetics how does that work sure I'll I'll talk to some of the aesthetic part first since that's the question before yeah that's a good that's a good question uh angel manglis development review manager over in the planning department okay um so street trees as the the information sheet kind of explained there are three different types of of streets our city capital improvement built streets the the private ones that are constructed as part of a development and then our our tech stop uh the ones we have most kind of control over is when uh private development is constructing a street either internally or part of the perimeter of the development we have our street tree requirements in the development code which requires one tree per every 30 linear feet of street frontage those are required to be spaced at intervals between 25 and 50 feet we encourage not any closer nor further apart partially for the aesthetic part however when you do see differences in that spacing or possibly even the location a lot of that is going to be driven by utility placement so we do have to maintain certain separations from underground utilities as well as being mindful of overhead electric lines to make sure that those trees are going to stay in a safe area that's not going to impact that later down the line text dot doesn't typically allow street trees in there in the right of way as noted in this memo but there are some occasions where we have maintenance agreements to allow for some landscaping within the medians but again taller trees are going to become a possible site visibility issue as well as being mindful of any utilities that are in the area though that's kind of how some of those decisions are are made and they're um they're looked at as each project comes in to ensure we're meeting those spacing requirements as well as meeting just the minimum numbers we require sure and so whenever there's trees put out in the medians is it the same type of tree or there's certain you know i know there's i've noticed this different kind of trees and just you know plainly speaking in layperson's mindset why are there different types of trees we do actually encourage uh biodiversity uh for a number of reasons one for some variety but also in the event that there were to be some tree specific disease it wouldn't wipe out an entire area's street trees maintaining some of that biodiversity is a goal of ours all right anybody else have any other questions i was just kind of floating out there in the atmosphere all right well if there are not any additional questions um are there any additional comments that we need to make oh you have a question yeah now are we going on to the the matrix section chair uh the matrix section uh i'm we have the um construction update timeline first is the exhibit two in case you had any questions on that one did you um we don't have a you know pull it up you don't have a you can pull it up i'll wait until we get the images and then we have what are you talking about number three future items future okay that's what i mean by the nature okay so there's a timeline this schedule you saw this last time so nothing has changed since the last time you saw anybody else okay i just want to say i i really love this edition thank you staff for putting this in this is all really helpful i i've been able to answer a lot of community questions by looking at having this available to me so thank you yeah it's a nice visual uh and if there's not any questions in that regards i guess we can go to future items on there anybody have any future items you don't have any did you have any future items okay so um i do have a couple i know that we had um we we're asking to get rid of the first item but it's not clear to me that that that item is not that's actually done so i i recognize that we've done a lot of updates on that one but i feel like you know until we get to a final alignment and we're actually proceeding forward i'd like that one to kind of tacitly stay on even though i recognize that you sort of you did mostly answer but there's sort of some outstanding pieces we can we can leave that one on i heard a couple of more discussion about it today so we'll leave it we leave that item on and uh then then the other thing is i know and this is this is we're just like hot in the middle of it because we have the the community uh engagement meetings on uh the windsor potential extension which i think is coming up very soon item 12 sort of yeah um but uh do we have in in both the talks and today i didn't see any updates on on uh sort of let dates and completion dates and things so if we could you know i know this one isn't done but if we could include that those those kinds of timelines like i just praised you know a minute and a half ago i'd appreciate that um and if get re-brought up at the meeting scott on the 28th i'd love that um unless you want to answer it now i i don't know who knows what uh but i also can wait i don't think it's super urgent and the last thing i wanted to add to the matrix is um i i love that we're seeing cassie here all the time because we're inserting it at the high level but i guess the uh do we have an eta on on uh vacancy updates uh we have bike pad and and farhan has come on recently and and the replacement of the city engineer and those sorts of things so it doesn't have to be today but if it could be today that'd be cool otherwise i'd like love to have a vacancy update i was going to add something to the next meeting because i was hoping to have an update for everyone by the next meeting who will be i mean i love having you here cassie like also i'm really feeling the love today um my i'm looking at number 13 there november 14 20 cmo transportation services uh division report uh last update was on february the 28th um second quarter um provide in the city quarter second quarter we are planning to provide you quarterly updates um of that division's kind of work in progress so that's it'll we're proposing to keep that on and just add it as a quarterly update to this committee now um what about dcta um and that's really what what you know brought me this to mind when i saw transportation services out of the cmo uh is this going to i haven't we haven't heard from dcta in in a minute but of course my time frame is off on everything since i'm retired um don't have to keep up with dates too much um what what do we what do we uh decided about dcta and them uh connecting with the city and giving us some updates or how is that gonna work for us what's the outlook i believe we still have it penciled in for dcta to give council quarterly updates okay um i'm not aware of them providing this committee right because we moved them from here yes because we moved it over to council yeah okay so that's where we're going to uh and so we're not gonna see that here uh to let us know to to be on a lookout for uh i can add it if as an upcoming kind of that'll be nice highlight that it may when it's scheduled for council that'll be nice i would appreciate that so we can just uh prepare our mindset for that all right anything else everyone's okay okay uh if there is not any additional information to be given now we're going to go to our um is there a uh concluding item anybody have any concluding items okay if there's not any concluding items then we are going to close out the meeting at 11 30 um and thank you all for visiting thank you everybody