Mar 19, 2024 City Council on 2024-03-19 11:00 AM (Joint Meeting with Planning and Zoning Commission)

mayor you ready yes so today is March 19 2024 it is 1121 we have a forum use the delay but we are all set so we will call the council meeting side of things order and I'll turn it over to the chair thank you we only have one item today to talk about and that is item a ID 2 4 4 9 5 receive report whole discussion of the southeast Denton area plan progress and receive and receive a direction and inference related to proposed strategies as recommended by the project team and steering committee now turn over staff to give us an overview of what we're going to do okay thank you mayor can everybody hear me okay just a meeting logistic so we do have the microphones throughout the room if you could project a little bit just to make sure we can all hear the conversation if you will later on this afternoon as we go through discussion we will have a microphone that we can also pass around for logistical needs so good morning thank you all for being here we are very delighted to have both the City Council and the Planning and Zoning Commission present for our conversation today as it relates to the southeast Denton area plan as the mayor indicated we are looking for your support and concurrence regarding the draft strategies that our team will be presenting to you before I get started though I would like to give a couple of shout outs first of all to Julie Wyatt and Mia Hines on my team so they have worked tirelessly public engagement I can assure you I've had to caution them on okay I want you to get public engagement but just not be too overly on obtaining the public engagement so but no they've worked very tired tirelessly on this project they've worked very well with the steering committee the success of this project thus far is really related to their efforts in working with our project team so kudos to them for everything that they've done the steering committee those members to the steering committee were appointed by council you all have done a great job with those appointees our steering committee has been tremendous to work with and I know we have some of the representatives here this afternoon for that they have done a great job of asking questions for clarification validating items when we've needed when our team has needed the validation on those on various project related items so they've been truly excellent to work with as for our project team so I have shy roots to my right as well as Mitchell silver so shy is our project manager along with Mitchell being our project advisor shy has had experience working with diverse minority groups and then couple that with Mitchell's professional expertise they've been an excellent partnership for this project for our team as well I know you all had the opportunity to work with shy previously on some of our other planning efforts but Mitchell is is new to you all if you will today Mitchell has spent the better part of his career working with communities similar to Denton where he's worked with minority groups where their own communities have been impacted by local government actions that have resulted past harm but more importantly he has worked with those communities with their residents their business owners their stakeholders to be able to help build a path for moving forward for the community and that's what the most important thing is and very similar to the work that we're doing here so today's meeting hopefully you all had an opportunity to look at the materials that we sent to you last week as part of the agenda packet as noted in your AIS our primary objective today is to receive support and concurrence regarding the proposed strategies as it's being recommended by the project team in the steering committee these strategies provide the foundation for us developing subsequent action items so bottom line if you don't like a strategy we don't want to waste our time and effort on developing action items to implement that strategy so I'll cut straight to the but again looking for your concurrence this afternoon on those strategies again those the steering committee has reviewed all of the strategies that are going to be presented as shy and Mitchell will point out there are 19 strategies we are not going to go through all 19 we're only going to focus on those that we felt like needed additional explanation all 19 strategies were provided in your AIS and in the backup materials so you had all of that in preparation of this meeting so with that I'm going to turn it over to shy Tina and good morning still good morning good morning council and PNC today we're really excited to bring you this project so as my apologies we will get this figured out it worked we did try it before you all came okay so today's agenda we'll just start right there is we did the introductions with a little project overview existing conditions we will talk through the key take takeaways we'll talk about public engagement results and then the draft vision and community priorities and then we'll go through some of the strategies and ask for your feedback and then the next steps of what we're gonna do so that your role today is to receive the presentation and then give us some direction for the project team to develop the action steps moving forward the introductions real quick we heard about Julie and Mia they're intrinsic part of this project but we've also had Scott Tina Haley all of them have been helping with this project and then of course it would not be possible without Mitchell to be doing this project and then our rest of our project team is not here but they're here in spirit and so the study area map you'll see there is those 600 acres is bounded by McKinney Bell Avenue Dallas Drive to the west and then Teasley and Shady Oaks and then the Woodrow Lane on the east but there is also another dashed boundary that you all see there so what we did was that was the initial project boundary we got a very through the intercept surveys through the visioning workshop all the way till November to make sure that what we're calling Southeast Denton is what the residents of Southeast Denton think is Southeast Denton so that was true majority agreed that is what they wanted to keep as Southeast Denton but they did want the border along the north south and the east of the project because the street they want that context to be there when you go out of or are coming into Southeast Denton so just to keep that and then our project approach was five phases existing conditions we'll quickly talk through that the desired outcomes and the community vision we'll talk in more detail later on in the project today we are at phase four which is recommended strategies and based on your direction we will then move on to phase five and develop some action steps so existing conditions the very interesting takeaway was this is a really young area 60% of the residents are under the age of 26 here and then the population while the population of the city and Denton County increased Southeast Denton decreased by 4% and then between 2010 and 2021 and then the Southeast Denton also is very demographically diverse between black white and Hispanic and these races are distributed quite evenly as you can see from the colored dots across the areas there's not enclaves of one race in one area this was very interesting the map on the top or the circle on the top is the jobs that are available in Southeast Denton and then the one at the bottom shows you what the people living in Southeast Denton where what they work in what industry and as you can see we're bringing in people to work in Southeast Denton and people from Southeast Denton actually leave because there's a mismatch right there maybe it would be better there but that's both an opportunity and a challenge you can look at it as upgrading the skill set or bringing in new jobs in the area and then there's the residential land uses the one thing this map shows you the yellow is residential as you can see it is surrounded all around by high intensity commercial and industrial uses and then on the east it's all institutional County uses so that's a very interesting thing we'll you'll hear more about it in the strategies this again challenge and an opportunity the vacant land in the area you can see 84 acres 69 acres is developable and it's spread all over so how this these properties develop will define what Southeast Denton area looks like in the future and that's another interesting story right here in this map these these colors are cities that are fair colors for arterials and collectors but as you can see there is no roadways that connect north-south directly and there's really few that are straight east-west connectors so the roads that actually do go through people speed through them so that's been a problem and of course the sidewalks sidewalks in the area are either in poor condition or are not there at all so those are some of the key takeaways from the existing conditions and we were taking questions at the end or okay so I'll hand over to Mitchell to talk about community engagement it's still morning morning it's certainly a pleasure to be here I just want to say what a privilege it is to work on this project I do projects some of this across the country and it's rare community actually leans in to address some of the past harm not that we committed it but there have been unjust practices for generations and the fact that you've elevated this is important certainly commendable and so for me it's a privilege to be here what I also enjoy the fact that that this was a no drama process everyone came it was engaging no red flags for you to be concerned about throughout the process there was an open dialogue and conversation and so with that we want to share with you what took place for the engagement certainly we had a stakeholder meetings which were open our first one was a listening session to address some of those concerns that we heard about and what people experienced over time steering committee was open honest transparent and they pushed us and so we appreciated that we had these listening sessions that really started to dive deep into what had happened as community we heard about Quaker town what happened years after the pain people still feel where they feel welcome and comfortable in this community so we heard that all loud and clear but we also recognize from public meetings that it was not fully represented we had one segment of the population come to our meetings and we felt it was important as you saw this community is demographically mixed and so make sure we heard from families from parents from younger generations and so we did intercept surveys we went to key places to start to survey people to hear what they had to say including tabling at events like Juneteenth event then we had a visioning workshop and as we really had kind of a show-and-tell an open house where people can look at maps and we can engage residents with more questions we then had a visual preference survey housing was a big topic missing middle was a conversation we had so people to look exactly what is missing metal single duplex triplex simple apartments to get an understanding about people feel about some of the housing choices and then early on we had a staff implementation workshop so that summarized the engagement which for us was very powerful we didn't just want to plan for who showed up but who lives in the community and we feel that the engagement fully represented that in terms of some of the overarching themes and desired outcomes certainly one of the desired outcomes is a fair share of political economic social investment from the city number two a community that celebrates its black cultural roots number three a variety of housing types pricing options to allow a diverse ranges and incomes to call this area home number four a safe accessible connected network for all modes of travel and then finally public spaces and amenities such as parks programming activities that are equitable so those are some desired outcomes we heard throughout the process we also want to make sure that there was a vision for Southeast Denton won our vision for Southeast a harmonious future that ensures a diverse resilient and inclusive community for generations to come we will be a vibrant community that the city cultivates trust with cherishes and preserves our rich black history and culture discourages gentrification ensures shared prosperity and elevates the overall quality of life through strategic investments a very powerful powerful vision and in terms of the project approach as was mentioned we want to take a closer look at the community vision and goals really about building trust honoring the culture and heritage looking at economic prosperity housing affordability the quality of public infrastructure and then safe and connected multimodal system so you saw the vision and as well as the vision and goals that this plan is striving to achieve so let's get into some of the recommended strategies as Tina stated there are 19 of them but the ones that you see highlighted in red those are the priority recommendation we want to really share with you to get your feedback again you have all 19 in your report we want to hear from you because the next step is now to develop actions now that we know that these are the recommended strategies the first and one of our heroes throughout the process pastor Logan as you can see him very active in a community on this visual and this is to develop and implement an anti displacement action plan specific to southeast Denton throughout the process there was a concern about the pressure of new development and how that would impact homes and residents and so we knew that this was an issue we talked about internally that we had to make sure the community that is here that wants to stay here should be able to age in place and stay here as well you'll also see underneath the goal there's a percentage through the second round of public engagement we reached out to the public to solicit their support for this recommendation and you'll see that's a neat slide 91% of those surveyed said they support or very much support this recommendation now we're proud to say with this anti displacement strategy right here in Texas UT Austin came up with this toolkit and so there's experience here in Texas we'll be looking into that report to see how we can put that toolkit in place to put that anti displacement action plan to make sure the residents feel protected both homeowners and renters in this community the next one is to use historic preservation tools and incentives to recognize the built environment and the families who created it from meeting one we heard about the impact and pain of Quaker town there are people who were children that remember the stories of what happened back then in the 1920s and so we wanted to make sure just like Harlem we know this community is going to change but the stories the memories the sacred places and spaces that occurred in this community should be acknowledged and recognized and so we wanted to make sure those stories were told we honor that culture in history and we really lean into that into that report and so the action steps I'm going to talk about exactly how do we use those tools to really help acknowledge the families who helped create the Southeast Denton that it is today and that one again was 91 percent of those supported this strategy and then and implement Southeast Denton history preservation this is one that's going to really recognize the historic integrity and an area through the maintenance and documenting changes in the area you'll see all those neighborhoods and I know there are signed toppers that talk about it but this is something to be celebrated to address some of that past harm and if you want to understand what past harm really means it has three components to acknowledge to apologize and to atone those are the three core elements and so this planning effort is atoning what had happened and so clearly want to recognize that the the cultural roots of preservation of what happened in Southeast Denton is recognized that recommendation received ninety four and support and I'll turn over to shy to go over the final recommendations before we entertain your questions thank you thank you Mitchell so the next strategy we want to talk about is economic prosperity was something people really talked about they wanted opportunities in the area for the younger generation to be entrepreneurs and innovators and so this strategy 3.1 is to develop and implement people based economic development that's specific to Southeast Denton and people based economic development are strategies that support small businesses they also support services like daycare to help the small business owners when they're doing work so it's these are strategies that take into consideration the reality of the people living in the area and what are the support system that they need and so there's workforce places spark is already in the area but the people don't know about it so how do we make it easy for residents of Southeast Denton to take advantage of some of the people people based economic development things that are already happening in the area so this strategy has eighty eight percent but the rest of the percentage went to maybe people weren't really sure whether they liked it or not liked it and so I just wanted to make sure people weren't against it they were just neutral about it and then this next one really got a hundred percent support and that is to develop and implement place-based economic development that's specific to Southeast Denton and place-based just means creating those spaces in areas where people can gather where people can maybe talk about jobs job exchange idea exchange so it's the physical environment do we make those incubator places in the area do we create plazas or ways for people to get together and and so that's that one and then the third one is to establish a neighborhood empowerment zone to spur community investment reduce taxes and increase affordable housing opportunities so empowerment zones or NEC's are zones once established allow a city to give incentives for these purposes and so that's just a way to allow for the area to get some more in capital in oh and that was eighty four percent people the next one is actually again as establishing a zone and this one is neighborhood revitalization strategy area and this is actually to allow fed more flexibility to federal funding for affordable housing or quality of life type transformative revitalization is what they say but if you take the HUD money and through a CDBG program all those funding if you've established an RSA in an area in that designated area you can have more flexibility on how you use those federal grants and 97 percent supported this strategy this next one is to increase access to capital in southeast Denton by adopting a locally responsible banking ordinance so what when we were talking to people even now while a lot of the old strategies are illegal but still the people in southeast Denton did do feel like it's difficult for them to get access to capital for their small businesses to buy homes any of that it still is difficult to get capital to invest in southeast Denton so this strategy really talks about how the city can support that without too much financial input of the city's tax dollars if you just pass an ordinance it signals to the whole community especially the banking but also the community that the city of Denton will not support these type of practices and supports inclusion and also supports investment in southeast Denton so that's the purpose of passing this type of ordinance and 94% support this strategy and the ninth strategy we wanted to talk about was to strengthen the connections to downtown and surrounding neighborhoods for all modes of transportation and we do want to make a point that this idea of making it easy to go from southeast Denton into downtown or from downtown into southeast Denton is really so that both can keep their unique identity but still support the activities that are going on and and work off of each other's successes so not being able to access either area is not good for anyone and so that's why this strategy is here is a lot of people did mention and you saw that land use map so that's what the issue is is it's very difficult for residents to get in and out of southeast Denton especially to downtown so that's 97% of the people surveyed supported this strategy so with that once again we're that this these strategies complete phase four and based on your direction today we will start working on the implementation steps of the strategies that you do support and while we only nine strategies we're here to discuss if you have questions about the others we please feel free to ask and so now we're at feedback start so that I can have an understanding as you answer the questions you didn't touch on unintended consequences right and so I'd love to get your thoughts on that for example if we're adding a commercial component to the because it's that compacted residential area and if we're adding commercial components obviously it's my opinion that that raises the cost of the are the value of the land and I don't know that you touched on the number of renters in the area but I think there's a number significantly higher than average number of renters in the area and so that increased land value would then affect what's on top of the lake right and so I just want to hear your thoughts on that evaluation did you evaluate the percentage of renters that pressure from increased commercial value affecting those renters your thoughts the answer your question mayors yes we did there are numbers that show the percentage of renters and homeowners it was the first strategy about the anti-displacement strategy there was a lot of conversation about how quickly both the number of assessments and how quickly taxes are going up the anti-displacement strategy one of the strategies they look at specifically our taxes property taxes and very often people said if they don't see their go up that much they're more supportive to support other development in the community because they're essentially left harmless and so they recognize that they're on the edge of downtown there's a lot of development pressure but the same time they harken back to Prairie Street what was the main street and what shy talked about those place based and people based economic development they missed that and so both those recommendations as well as the anti-displacement strategies which is key to seeing the area prove but not be been being pushed out at the same time so that really is going to be addressed the action step in strategy number one great okay and someone that has a slide can we go back to just your map of the southeast in the area please and thank you yes thank you very much and my comment here is I agree it's not in southeast Denton proper but I believe a lot of what we what we arrive at here from a city perspective can be addressed or at least negotiated with the property owner on the other side of Woodrow that is one property owner that whole stretch right so when you talk about that bifurcation but access and you're talking about commercial and some other things I think given the direction wherever it settles we can then use that as a understanding of a public use to then go back and kind of negotiate some of those things in a way that doesn't again affect the the residents is that kind of that kind of core competency and so that I just wanted to put that out there for staff to know that's what I'm thinking is kind of as I look at those things if some of those make me nervous adding them into southeast it improper but we have an entire area which one landowner to negotiate with that is approach the city about incentives etc etc so there's an opportunity to negotiate those things I believe and address a lot of those concerns right on the edge of what we're talking about yeah and I'll see if shy wants to add more there was a lot of conversation about what affects one side of the quarter like Woodrow McKinney there's also another side of the street and so what you see is the study area but then as a transition zone recognizing that the two sides of one Street work together and so we hear you mayor and that's certainly something that we will take into consideration but that's the intent of both the initial study area and then the secondary one recognized since it's so close you can't discount or ignore what's happening on the other side of the street the transition area right and then lastly and and I just need to get your direction understanding so one of my questions in preparation for this was who lives in the area right because these are the decision-makers and if there's not a familiar area with the area I think that's a deficit I wouldn't understand your approach there is exactly one person that lives in the area and that's me there's a couple on the edge and others but no one's been in that area that we're talking about but we have the vote so I just need your guidance thoughts on how do you make sure everyone has the same base of knowledge obviously you spent time in the community your experience staffs done those things but from a from a voting standpoint from a decision-making standpoint how do we work to make sure we have a process that absorbs that information and not just I don't know so you know I just how do we protect against that let me say two things from the very beginning we looked carefully at the demographics and you saw the slide that it is a diverse community and so we want to make sure we heard from as many voices as possible that represent those demographics by race ethnicity generation age to make sure renter homeowner we heard from all voices secondly when it comes to Southeast Denton as all cities every neighborhood you rise as a city you fall as a city to have a very underperforming neighborhood a community affects the entire city so every neighborhood we all plan all neighborhoods that all communities need to be prosperous for all and so there's a vested interest to make sure that every neighborhood gets his fair share every neighborhood has his path the economic prosperity and opportunity and every neighborhood is heard and seen because everyone pays their taxes and they have an expectation that their best interests are being looked after for all so there's nothing more I can add to that we felt we did our job with the staff's guidance to make sure we heard as many diverse voices as possible after the first meeting we said this isn't good enough we only heard from one segment we have to hear from all voices what about the parents what about the younger generation they live here and expect to prosper and live here for a long time so we feel we've represented those voices those needs but from your decision-making point of view you want to make sure every community rises up and prosperous if not it hurts the city and I'd like to add one piece to that here I would say the work of the committee and the work of the community and the voices that were heard is really what it is that this body or these bodies should be looking at and listening to I think it's very simple that I think the work that was performed was performed excellently and again support the recommendations that came out of the committee and we're doing what we should be doing great thank you okay other council members open up that to get those questions out and then we'll thank you I appreciate the the key takeaway I don't know what slide that is mobility dealing with east and west and south did the committee make any recommendations so that I find that a difficult area to negotiate to get through and there's and you're right there's no there's no there's no Carol Boulevard running through that please yes the committee did look at some of the other recommendations that are there so that we looked at some streets that we could change the cross sections to and some of them where we can make it easier to go in and out but you know any specific recommendations we will come back with them with the action steps so the specific roads and the specific cross-sections would be to say in the action steps how are we connecting it thank you so so I noticed in one of the slides that when you were talking about the same topic that councillor Holland brought up about they listed a preference for multimodal and and we listed different kinds of multimodal did the stakeholders prioritize that in any way were their favorites on the multimodal that they were interested in sidewalks surfaced as probably the top recommendation people just felt some sidewalks were present somewhere in poor condition but by and far sidewalks elevated as I think the top mode I'll defer to shy I think there were others but from my reaction I do remember sidewalks coming up often and well-lit sidewalks so that was something that came up just having that safe passage where people can get from downtown to southeast they recommended certain streets where they just do not feel comfortable either no sidewalks not proper lighting but this is a community that's within walking distance of downtown but felt it was not even not less driving but walking and so that clearly was a top one and the other two things because this is a very young community bike safe biking ability on the roadways it was something people really talked about we were given a few intersections that are very difficult to cross either walking or biking and so we'll put those in our action steps for sure anyone else Councilmember Watts on the so on on the revitalization plan because revitalization can be made up a couple of different components one is how do you revitalize the structures that are already there in other words houses that might need some additional repair and so forth and so on but then also and I'm assuming revitalization does not mean removing certain structures and replacing them with something so you're looking at the development the vacant land there so how do you how does one and this may be in the other action plan because when you talk about revitalization especially with new development you will put upward pressure on property values and the like but just because new construction and all those kinds of things do that so how do you propose to do that with the revitalization I'm assuming you mean revitalization with you know different types of amenities that can come in opportunities retail opportunities restaurant opportunities and then also on the other hand help those that are there that may need some help with their structures to improve that which as you had said Mitchell that you know once you lift up the neighborhood the whole city whereas you start you know improving those structures improving people's quality of life and their and their housing choices I think that's probably something that will come shortly thereafter councilman one of the hottest topics around the u.s. is revitalization without displacement so this early with the action plan is something we want to explore because certainly people do want to see the community improved but don't on the back end want to pay for it with substantial increases in property taxes the anti displacement plan will take a look at I'm not from Texas HDR has deep knowledge about Texas and what can and cannot be done we did doing tax assessments assessors do a judgment based on a number of factors and so we want to see to what extent the county can look in areas that are quote-unquote vulnerable and is there another approach to ensure communities that are in transitioning aren't overly burdened so we hear your point and we're gonna burr we're having issues with this microphone we're gonna explore exactly what can be done testing testing I'll just okay you can't put your lips on this now because I touched it okay so the point is is that we're gonna explore under the action plan exactly what can and cannot be done but extremely sensitive to that remark because the residents were extremely sensitive to that remark that concern I'm looking at one of the key takeaways that note that the skill set of residents in the study area are not aligned with the jobs available in the area today what is what are we specifically looking at there when we say the jobs available in the area today is this a citywide area regional area you know I can gather what the skill sets of the residents may be but what is are we talking outside of southeast didn't how far how far wide are we talking about the area today so the area that we looked at was just within the boundaries of the southeast dentin so that's exactly the 600 acres that's the area we looked at well I'm noting that that particular area is mostly you know home single-family homes and if we are going to you know look at skill sets and getting folks ready to work in that area what kind of skill sets can we look forward to getting to those folks and how does that work is that going to come through this ISD or we're going to work with economic development people you know how should we be thinking in terms of that in the future so I feel like y'all are really well placed you have two universities in town and your economic development skills entrepreneurial work that is being done in Denton is is really one of the best I've seen in DFW so you have a lot of support already the issue here is that Southeast Denton residents are not aware of it so the first and foremost all you have to do is make sure that the communication is there and also when we talk about projects if you or the skill set if you see the jobs in public administration here in this area are over around 11 percent and then the people the skill set that have that skill set is three point five percent so that's what we're saying is that the people that live here cannot work here because they don't have that skill set but there are jobs here so that that's what we're talking about you say the population of Southeast didn't decrease by four percent within 11 years can you give us a little bit more information as to why that occurred did you all look at why there was a significant I think it's a significant number four percent what what could have been the primary reason for it decreasing especially since the property is you know fairly valuable over there now okay so that is one of the things that the team did look at because I know the planning and zoning Commission had that question as well about the four percent and so we included this in your AIS materials and my apologies I don't have numbered pages but it's in the section right after streets and then it starts out during the after mentioned February 21st planning and zoning Commission meeting so it was the first question so based upon our research in in this con question was also asked in the contents of whether or not gentrification was occurring so we noted that while there was that four percent population decline that there was no data to suggest that gentrification is occurring there are several variables that are associated with those changes one of the things that we noted was household income we also noted that the the number of older homes and developable parcels we know there will be continued development expected to persist and increase but not withstanding the natural increase in property values the city's limited influence on the free real estate market the goal of our plan would be able to put actions in place to support that so there weren't any clear indicators and the data from what we could see that we're contributing to that other than you know we did see that decline when you compare that with the rest of the city that we had the greater increase I've been in meetings where the citizens were concerned in regards to varied types of housing I've heard citizens state that they would like to just see single family dwellings there and we know that we have developers that want to come in and help solve our you know our lack of housing issue in particularly you know concerning the low affordable housing I really don't like that word affordable but and so they're coming want to come in and put in additional you know units that might be four or eight units or something like that on the property on certain properties that they own how are we supposed to support something like that you know if the certain segment of the community is okay with you know multi units coming in versus single family housing what are they saying in that regard councilmember thank you for the question we heard a variety of comments we heard from some older residents that they're just looking for single-family that is the path toward prosperity we heard from younger families that they're not ready and cannot afford a home but still want to call southeast Denton home as a result we put out a visual preference survey to understand exactly what were the type of housing types people are looking for and so that survey offered combinations of single-family duplex triplex and communicated that they were looking for a variety because not everyone can afford a home but still like living in southeast Denton so the recommendations is to offer those housing choices for homeownership but also for rental as people are saving up to buy a home and so it's balanced across the board to make sure there are housing options for people whatever stage at their life can move into Denton start a family and call it home what does high-intensity commercial look like what does that mean for a person that may live there what should they be expecting to come into their neighborhood what it should which should neighboring high-intensity commercial look like councilmember is that is that phrase in the document because generally you try to avoid terms like high-intensity because people may interpret high-intensity different ways so if you can help us share where that's located we'll make sure that term is modified you certainly want to make sure a community has a balance about housing commercial opportunities for jobs for retail for restaurants but the goal is always to make sure uses are compatible and not having an undue impact on adjacent residents so when I heard the term high intensity next to single-family you want to have a transition so that it doesn't go from high to single-family that it transitions down from one intensity to more of a single-family intensity because the characters are so different I wanted to look at that north boundary there and I know that it's stepping over on the other side of McKinney Street and pulling in some of those businesses along McKinney Street on the north side of McKinney Street you had there no go back yeah that one right there that that boundary I know we talked about the mayor just said something in regards to Woodrow and a stepping over on the other side of Woodrow and increasing the boundaries on the west side and even on the south side but on the north side there are a number of businesses that just line the street all the way to a Woodrow and the idea of bringing in those bit that area and including those businesses now would that satisfy that component that talks about you know that additional businesses will the community accept pulling in those businesses you know to satisfy that need are they okay with that we didn't what we heard was a desire to bring back Main Street Prairie Street in particular that neighborhood cultural Main Street that people remember barbershops beauty Paulers local retail that was more the focus than on the periphery of McKinney so unless my colleagues could answer that question any further it was more about how do we do create that local neighborhood retail where's the closest grocery store where can we shop that's more of a locally focused Main Street versus how do we handle a McKinney so I'll see if my colleagues have a question but I don't recall anyone calling out McKinney other than what happens on one side should happen on the other side and how do we traffic comment better because even walking down McKinney was a scary proposition with cars going by 45 miles an hour with a small sidewalk they just didn't feel it felt like a commercial walking street it felt more like uses on the side of a highway business it and I want to add one piece to that to say that staff recognizes that the outcomes of this area plan will dictate really what's on the peripheral as well so we will balance that transition it's not going to be a matter of because there's a boundary at McKinney whatever happens on the south is different from the north so we will be balancing that throughout whatever the actions are and those businesses really are already part of Southeast Denton because again if somebody has access to that it's more if we can add more businesses just as Mitchell indicated within Southeast Denton that complement the community that's what we're looking to do Thank you. My first reaction going through this before was what a great job the community did in terms of identifying needs and also in how the strategies you know really are really felt spot-on but as I mulling this through a couple of areas of things rubbing up against each other in my mind a little cognitive dissonance maybe you can help. We see a lot of emphasis on projects targeted toward affordability as a way to avoid displacement and and with the goal of trying to reflect what the community wants these are overwhelmingly supported by your survey but I'm hearing that and also bearing in my mind that in the past we've heard that targeting affordability in that neighborhood is sort of discriminatory and you know that there was a desire to make sure that affordable projects are not concentrated in one area but are dispersed and I've also heard folks in the neighborhood association being very skeptical about having affordable oriented projects concentrated in their area so you know with my desire being to reflect the community I wonder like have did you hear that too did has have opinions shifted is that tension still there doesn't seem to be in the numbers so I'm curious to hear how you know if you encounter that and how you understand it. As council member Bird said the term affordable is probably the most complicated definition to explain is it affordable the program or is it I want to live there and I can't afford it clearly the goal here is that the term was housing is affordable at all income levels so that is making sure it's more about the housing choices than about inserting affordable programs with AMIs what we heard was that people wanted housing choices one segment of communities said single-family that is the only path towards prosperity the others said I don't want to own a home but I want to live here are there options for me it could be a rental in a home or it can be another type of housing setting so that is what we heard and so this recommendation is provide a balanced approach that the key word here is affordable for all income levels so if you're at the higher end we want it to be affordable but also if you're coming in young family for it to be affordable for you as well so I don't think it's inconsistent right now what we can recommend in control are the zoning options potentially some programs but that is what we will respond in terms of what we heard they just want to make sure there are more options that are affordable for all income levels well so may that may be a clue in terms of like if you don't want to like go through this every single time this is presented you know maybe the language choice is more about housing choices housing diversity you know that kind of thing the new term is attainable housing that is slowly changing from affordable to attainable and so maybe in hindsight we can pivot to start using the word attainable versus affordable sense affordable for the past 20 years comes with let's just say I don't want to say baggage becomes with a certain connotation right right what that was helpful response the another area is that you know all the recognition and I forget the three terms you talked about that go into sort of the reparation you know from past wrongs it's everything that's happened so far and that will happen so so right and helpful I would just looking at the composition of the neighborhood about how the Hispanic community is about the same size as the historic black community I know that's an issue there as well as just on a cultural level feeling acknowledged and reflected you know if you're in if you're in the majority culture if you're in the majority culture you don't necessarily see the impact of people not feeling reflected in the majority culture and I know that I think it was the first targeted project for LULAC 40 years ago was getting the school there the Rivera school named for a Hispanic leader so I just know that that's a topic that comes up and knowing the composition of the community I wonder if that came up in your discussions too also you know just reflecting and explicitly putting out of sort of cultural inclusiveness in public spaces for that element of neighborhood as well let me commend staff we tried and throughout the process specific means I believe at LULAC at some places of worship our intercepts did capture a lot of the Latino Hispanic population so we're very proud to get their input we did make that recognition because we wanted to make sure the feedback represented all the demographic groups in the community so I hear you communities will always transition over time the term I had mentioned that repairing past harm is acknowledge apologize and atone atone does not have to be cash contributions it's this planning process of having these conversations but it's not just addressing past harm it's also ensuring you're not going to create any new harm that's why it's important to hear all the voices to sure that all demographic groups and cultural groups are represented this process did that we did not want to proceed to the next level and staff was very helpful making sure we reached out those other voices so when we gave you feedback it wasn't just hearing from the black community it was the white community was the Hispanic community we did our due diligence to make sure all voices were heard thank you Scott first let me commend staff again Julie Mia Tina all the staff that worked on this just tremendous effort and shy and Mitchell and your whole project team truly impressive the way that you engaged with the community and I know it was difficult from the beginning I you know and the way it has come together is certainly impressive and very reflective on all of you for sure obviously we've got a good robust amount of strategies that have been put before us and probably most of my questions have to do with how do we how do we do that which I guess is the next part of what you're gonna focus on so my my only question on a strategy as far as focusing on it I'm unsure what the banking ordinance looks like I'm confused by what is that versus like our federal laws that are already on the board are you talking about more like banking incentives or training community engagement I'm very confused by that so there can be many so city of Dallas has recently adopted one of them so it is on every city how you do it city of Dallas said that if you want to do business with the city you will agree to be fair about your lending practices so you they have to prove provide proof that they are doing fair lending practices and so that's their thing but mostly what we heard from the community was just the city passing an ordinance saying that you have to be inclusive suddenly people start paying more attention to Southeast Denton they're not thinking the City Hall is not paying attention to Southeast Denton that ordinance is more of course ceremonial maybe but it gives that feeling of inclusion to the community and the it tells the market that city considers Southeast Denton really important so that's about all that ordinance does yeah and that makes sense I know it seems we as a city have not liked to go forward with ordinances when there's already laws on the books because it doesn't really make any sense to do that necessarily because they're just for fluff but maybe yeah there's research to show that other cities that have these ordinances that have spurred some kind of improved communication with certain areas one of the things to add to that that we've also discussed amongst the project team is looking to identify lending institutions within our community that actively promote that they have fair lending practices right I mean there there should be federal laws in place that be able to address that but also looking to be able to identify those lenders again that make it and advocate in having fair lending practices and then being able to help educate the community or connect them with that list if you will of lending institutions in our community just more educational opportunity as well did you have something to add to that are you good it's just a super sensitive topic for me yes there are laws fair housings a law unless you enforce it you do have to make another reason why I say it I was denied my first mortgage and I fell into an unfair lending practice went to the next bank and they said we are totally confused and I got the mortgage immediately so I know the hypersensitivity the person who wrote the letter would not they just signed their name they didn't put it in type so I decided to move on and not press it but this can be very personal you're going into a community and want to send a signal that all are welcome we too want to lift up this community after decades of redlining and unfair practices to send a message that you matter and we're going to work with you through the lending institutions to make sure you want to invest in this community this is a way to do it you need a loan to make it happen and we want to make sure the banks are a partner so yes there are laws but there are monic laws on the books unless there's a commitment to enforce it it does send a strong message that with that serious that banks you need to pay attention and be a part partner in this community thank you and I'll echo Margie's sentiments just thank you to staff especially me and Julie for your hard work on this and appreciate it second time we've been able to see this on PNZ come through and so it's been a even better presentation this time Mitchell just from your past experience when you take a look at some of these strategies it I'm sure you can see how it can be kind of a tug-of-war between we want to you know take the any Z's for example we want to spur community investment we want to reduce taxes increase affordable housing opportunities but by doing some of these things they will impede upon other strategies so move moving forward with the next phase of going to action items what are some of the steps that you guys are going to take to make sure that the competing strategies don't begin to basically play against each other well it's one of the reasons why I'm glad the HDR brought me on this team if you don't know I was playing director in Raleigh North Carolina and excelled on and actually teach a course on implementation strategies where you scrutinize these action steps which is why this meeting is so important and you do that due diligence find out here's the action step how's it gonna happen how's it going to happen who's going to do it what other policy does it conflict with what is the likelihood of this being a reality if it's not then you scratch it off so to me it's very important that you do that deep dive you do that reality-based check to see you okay this anti displacement action plan how's it going to work here in Denton and you walk through the steps if there's uneasiness with staff and you have a very smart and talented staff it will not move forward we won't put it on it because it sounds good it has to be able to work and that's where you start to examine conflicts with other policies what are the roadblocks is the City Council willing to make that extra step that's something council will know staff will know and so that's the next exercise is once we get the green light both the consultants and staff is going to start to do a deep dive to put those action steps together but determine if they can truly work and be implemented and that's going to be the true test before we come back to you with a final report when it comes to any easy specifically I think that this is something that has been discussed in the past when you see any type of improvement district improvement fund something like this and then how empowerment zone there are obviously great benefits that come from doing something like this targeting an area trying to create revitalization of whatever way that looks like how do you do that in a way that does not impact external or other neighborhoods in the area so for example if there are if we make it any Z in a certain area of town how does the investment the city investment that goes in to be able to allow for that whether it's a true dollar amount investment or it's just opportunity cost right it's a it's an abatement it's a postponement of taxes collected whatever it is how do we do that without displacing said cost elsewhere in the city so do you want to well even if you don't put in any Z when you put certain dollars in one area you are not putting it in the other area so when you put any Z's you're doing it in communities that has not seen that investment for a long time and so it is time now to put that investment in that's the whole idea and point of putting the NAC so you're correct absolutely correct there's finite amount of dollars in the budget you put it here you're not putting it there so it's your decision where do you want to put it I'm gonna go back to my days as a planning director when we put up a map and made a decision where we identified areas for economic development support we did not include the well-off areas where the market will certainly take care of it we focused on places and corridors and neighborhoods for historically did not get their fair share of capital improvements and we did a map you know everyone pays taxes some more than others yet certain areas downtowns and other places got a huge boost of investment at the expense so this is kind of bouncing out and having a more equitable approach because we felt that these are the neighborhoods that needed extra boost for economic development because the market is certainly going to take care of other areas because of access to transportation real estate value schools desirability and so that map was very helpful to communicate a message that these are the areas that we're going to focus on that are falling behind and so it's more of an equitable approach and you would explain it other communities would certainly support it because they're saying you know something that's enabled in transition for it to get better all on board because it helps the entire city improve thank you chair I want to reiterate what the my chair and vice-chair said and thank staff and the consulting team for going outside the box in terms of making sure we got accurate and representative survey results from the community I really appreciate that a quick question I'm not sure if we covered this but as we move into the implementation step we can have consistent dialogue with community going forward so with the implementation or action steps we usually have that dialogue with staff and council and P&C because the community tells us what they want how to get there you you all have to approve that so we'll definitely put the plan out for the community once it's done but the next step is really in this group working on it thank you really appreciate all the comments so far Mitchell one of the threads I've heard has been in how do we manage the combination of increased development pressure toward this area land values you know the the desired mix of housing I guess my question is are there any actions that the city could take even potentially outside of this particular zone that would give us the ability to to manage how much increased development pressure is seen within this area so that we can let the steam out of the kettle before it gets too hot perhaps that's a really good question clearly it's the zoning that's there and every zonings that are approved that was the perception people have and that's a perception we heard throughout the process the development right next to the railroad was one that was a huge conversation it abuts right next to the neighborhood and so the decisions you make on the rezoning side about what is entitled and could be developed sends a very strong message knowing this plan is now underway both the City Council and planning and zoning will proceed a little bit more with caution knowing that these recommended strategies are floating out there so I think that recognition knowing what you heard from the community should come into play as you're evaluating I don't know if there are any other pending rezoning cases but there are some large ones are already approved so I think that's the best one the other one is once you adopt the plan people want you to follow the plan I have this saying there are plan making places and there are deal making places most people are more comfortable in places that do a plan and follow the plan versus somehow making a deal because it's unpredictable for developers is unpredictable for the decision-makers is unpredictable for the community and I think having a plan and staying with it and citing it when new cases come up would be the best signal that we hurt you we value your input and we will take it in consideration we make our future decisions other than that I recommended what I call low-hanging fruit we had already shared with the city that there are quick things you can do that are outside of the small-era plan small things people ask for doggy wait stations they've asked for address speeding the fact that I involved in a process and I made a recommendation and you've done it that sent a very strong signal that you're listening to what I'm saying and I have to commend the city Julie in particular the minute we made a recommendation she's like how do we do this how do we do this so staffs on board and so we're very encouraged by that looking at speed limits for stop signs to slow traffic down that to me is another signal of showing an act of goodwill the community gave their time in a return you heard them and you do these quick win early win recommendations yes if I could just add one thing to Mitchell's response so as you all are aware of we are working on the downtown area plan and there's much discussion between how do our planning area how do our planning efforts in the downtown area influence what happens in southeast and vice versa one of the things that we know is a challenge in southeast and no council member bird spoke to this is that you know there's multifamily developer interest within southeast denton despite what we've heard from residents in southeast Denton looking for a variety of housing options we also know that in downtown we have a need potentially to add additional housing to the downtown area with the bond monies that have been approved for infrastructure improvements that help us allow for some development to happen particularly south of the square so one of the things that we're working on on that project is is looking to add additional residential opportunities within that downtown area and as a result of that then that may also help with removing some of the multifamily development interest that's particularly in the southeast part of town so we're trying to balance recommendations and strategies that we put in place and take and consider I'm so that we're very aware of what we're recommending in both areas anybody else in PNC thank you chair Julie Mia y'all did a wonderful job and a lot of trust needed to be built between the city and the residents southeast in I think I'll did a great job so thank you and I just three quick questions one was who's the single largest employer in this southeast in area y'all know that I was just curious okay and also I was curious about who you know this the owner that owns the location of this property and then who is that single owner that owns where's that property located and who owns it I was curious thank you Danny McCormick on the whole Tom Fowlis side of things that all run. yeah that entire stretch of wood basically we can get back to you on the largest employer I do remember seeing it throughout the process I just don't have a top of mind I'm sorry your second question was okay we got that one and then the third one so once again I just want to echo what everyone else already said which is incredible work I know you guys put a lot lot into all this I mean Shay pointed out earlier you guys are all relying on City Council and PNC to take the leadership here and to communicate and continue to try to support and advocate for the needs of the area as somebody that is on PNC and he's gone through our workshops I just keep kind of facing a lot of contradictions and what the wants are of the area so in one breath there is we want road improvement in another breath we do not want road improvement and we don't want more cones and we don't want more you know construction equipment and another breath and another breath I heard and this is coming in the presentation that we heard in PNC we do not want to be considered quote the black part of town yet there in another breath we want to embrace you know our heritage so I'm just I'm wondering how we can sort of tighten up what the exact goals are so that you know as leaders we can try and advocate and try to support where we can with this I just feel like I'm getting mixed messages so let me help you out thank you for your question in terms of the road construction people appreciate the improvements what we heard was people were confused about the disruption the dust not being communicated when roads would close trying to navigate through the community not knowing the detour they had to take people appreciate the investment in a rose in the community but they felt there was a lack of communication didn't know what row would be closed next so what you heard was oh just the roads no people did appreciate the fact of improvements they what they wanted more sidewalks with those improvements they just got the road they wanted sidewalks but in generally people supported the fact that hundreds of millions of dollars are being invested it's just in terms of the dust the construction the duration the disturbance and lack of communication but they certainly supported the investment in the community in terms of being perceived as a black part of town I'm kind of gonna go into community speak and it's how they're perceived but in terms of the culture and the history they were like that celebrated so the cultural contributions the deep and rich history the stories the sacred places is what they want elevated not oh the black part of town don't go there it's scary it's dangerous we're not gonna go to a Carl Young Park because we're concerned about our safety is the perception about being a black community and being neglected ignored not heard not seen so you're hearing two different things there was certainly a desire that our history matters our cultural culture matters we want that elevated to show the amazing people and places that exist here but not the stereotypical that's the black part of town stay away don't invest just look the other way so that's the dichotomy you're hearing so this plan is very inconsistent because these recommendations came from all diverse voices from the community not just the black community it was only a small quest the staff that the presentation is presented is slightly different with a little bit more information so if we could get that distributed because of the percentages and other you know really useful information in it but I think that would be useful that will that will be distributed immediately following the meeting so we were already aware of that so I have some notes here on just follow up next steps considerations you can speak to whatever you'd like but I'm just gonna run through these also staff if you could come back with a account I don't know how many roads that were reconstructed we started with the bond program in Southeast Denton and I don't know how many roads were reconstructed that didn't have sidewalks obviously more Fred Moore school there is there's sideways part of the sidewalks part of the way and you switch side the rest of the way but we added roads to me we added sidewalks to some of the other things so I just don't know that we missed many that are warrant a sidewalk but I'd like to know that also before I go into these strategies I'll ask the consultants to note the history and research the history of Skinner Street it's it's significant because this there used to be houses on the west side of the street that were then systematically bought and torn down and now that's owned by Morrison Milling the city's approached them and saying hey can you sell this back to us we use it as parkland they said no we're not interested I've had those conversations firsthand so I know there's there's a you they preserve a place on that not willing to release that but from a historical standpoint of what can happen and what we're guarding against I think you need to research that and understand that street in the heart of what we're talking about then I'll go to the strategies so if I look at so in that that that Skinner Street example would line up with strategy to - I believe but then I look at strategy to one ish I'd ask you to consider that habitat for humanity is developing that neighborhood I forget it's something village and it's 32 ish homes I think going in ground ribbon cutting this week but that's like that's right in the middle of that's Duncan Street and Curly is the the cross-section and they have maybe eight acres they're gonna develop there so that then kind of folds in and becomes part of this discussion I believe or at least adds context to and interesting enough to to the chairs point habitat for humanity they carry the note but they carry a prohibition you can't sell your house for 15 years in that to kind of preserve that and allow people to be get their footing then I'll talk about that Main Street component you talked about that's noteworthy I was just when we come back I'd like to have some specificity with that and maybe shift up to Sycamore Street because you have more undeveloped land to the north there you do have one landowner that owns that vacant land next to the downtown transit station and across the street to the east and so there's kind of this large continual kind of already commercial use case there versus Prairie Street which is predominantly residential and it would be problematic to have that so we need to know that so that we can if we're going to have discussions about what the developer will need to have those discussions and then and that strategy 3-1 in my estimation and then for those tracking along that don't know correct me if I'm wrong any Z neighborhood empowerment zone we use the acronym I just need to make sure we put that on record is that right neighborhood empowerment zone yeah thank you great and then I would solicit the consultant and staffs kind of review of existing infrastructure and what's compatible with that so for example in the middle of this area we have the county jail probably not gonna build million dollar homes right there it's probably not gonna work out so what what's compatible in those areas that are developable so you have the outlying kind of here's a pocket of land what's around that what's the highest and best use use cases those lists of kind of what would fit there in your estimation and your research that kind of will help inform next steps for me and then the last thing that I was curious about was make sure it's right yes the last thing was the just consider the traffic flow because just a day in the life right if you just and if I look at that map let me get there because I think I'm right thank you if if if you look at that entire map Moore Street for example that's a good example you because you can you take Robertson from Bell and you curve around just a short stretch to Moore Street and then you take that that's the longest stress eat stretch east to west to Woodrow so the span of this entire area if I use that one street that's two stop signs so in a city that's growing in a city that's frustrated with traffic and trying to get some place in a hurry that that cut through the entire area to stop signs and I can be where I can be on Woodrow and headed to Walmart or wherever I need to go now that's a blessing and a curse I love it I would advocate you don't change it but I don't drive that fast right so but there's you people using it as a if I'm using it as a cut through and I'm in a hurry you stop twice it's controlled what's not signalized and and I think there's a number of those intersections where it's not signalized where you have a predictable I got to hit the brakes for two seconds and then I can keep going versus I don't know how long this is gonna hold me so those kind of lived experiences in the neighborhood are gonna be critical when you're coming back with suggestions and so I I would just ask you to consider those in my estimation that falls under strategy to one thank you very much then just to follow up on the employers Morrison milling at 230 and then we also have the county as a major employer thank you for the opportunity I am have taken on the personal interest in the cultural the cultural element for this community I have done some due diligence in listening to constituents in regards to accomplishing putting up the sign toppers and recognizing the community's heritage and honoring the cultural heritage of the community and we are also working with the Quaker town project everybody's heard of Quaker town and so you know my next step for Quaker town I've noted to the Southeast dead neighborhood Association that I wanted to be on a quest to change names of you know a couple of buildings that are located in the Quaker town park area but I think I'm envisioning the opportunities to give people the feeling of being in Quaker town for instance when you step on to the properties of Quaker town you're not only just in the park but I like to have a feeling of being in Quaker town and the park is located in Quaker town so I've already put in a request for a name change for the Civic Center and that is to be changed to you know possibly Quaker Quaker town community center and maybe some others later on but I'm noting to our Southeast didn't neighborhood Association folks and the opportunity to you know talk about Juneteenth that's a big deal here in town and and so just the opportunities for the cultural part that I just want to note that that is ongoing and it is a personal quest of mine to do certain things with them and they've been very responsive to that so you know being I just want to you know just kind of let it out there that that's not missed you know the cultural perspective and we're talking about also the Hispanic cultural perspective that's also ongoing as well so I just want us to be proud of that as a community in you know thank you for the opportunity I've got just a quick question about forward steps I think you had that slide up a second ago so as you move through with these strategies so you are you planning to have continued meetings just with the steering committee how is that working I guess that's what I want to know what are your next steps with with the approval of these strategies the next step is for the consultants and staff to get together to start to well first the consults will put together some recommendations and we'll meet with staff and this will be a very long meeting where we'll go through each one of those action steps and we're giving you they'll come in projects programs policies and that's all of that with staff certainly with their experience they'll have some ideas as well so that's what the next step is that's going to be an internal meeting between the consultants and staff to work through these action steps and then Tina is it we then just see the final then as a public hearing or are we going to be briefed on those action steps ahead of the yeah if the Commission would like to receive a briefing on those actions we can definitely incorporate that into as we lead into adoption and we've been so focused on this meeting that we probably need to go back and look to see what what we identified as some of those subsequent actions but I know throughout the course of this project we've been providing updates to the planning and zoning Commission at key milestones and then sharing that information with Council in a Friday report as well as a link to your meeting so we yeah definitely look and I think anything going forward I just hate to jump from here then to the okay final approval step without kind of seeing it in between that would be great if you if you could if you could do that thank you sure thing yeah no anything else we have about five minutes council member what no I don't think so but I'll just real quick I want to second I think very helpful notion from the mayor of kind of thinking about sycamore as an alternative to Prairie and I'll just give you a little contextual clue they might find interesting I have to learning about historic Prairie Street from residents and about how vital that was before desegregation I walked it with the prior historic preservation officer looking for signs for things to re-inherit as it were and you will find very little you'll see the single-family housing but what you will find if you know to look is curb cuts in places that make no sense and that's the remaining kind of archaeological remnant of commercial Prairie Street we all love a detective who can unveil history we thank you for the recommendation we knew Prairie Street would not be it I was sharing what we heard so mayor thank you because we were just saying that the committee really wanted a main street so we'll certainly look at sycamore we appreciate the recommendation yeah no that'll be really good insight as we enter negotiations infrastructure tax abatements etc so that that's that's very helpful to have your insight there anything else before we kind of sum up any other questions or okay seeing those sudden movements then I believe thank you again I'll join everyone saying thank you for your your work all the way around the boards the consultant staff etc it's one of the same in my opinion and so thank you very much for that and if there's I'll take it that everyone's supportive of the everything lined out all the notes moving forward there's someone that has a dissenting opinion I need to capture that make sure we have that noted or if there's someone that just says hey I can't get on board with this or that just please let me know so we can they'll know not to invest time energy in those things or we can have a discussion around observer consensus but otherwise we're all good great anything in closing I don't think so just thank you again and thanks to all the PNC members for volunteering your time this afternoon I know it's difficult to get here on an afternoon so but you can see how important these joint meetings are they're certainly very productive did you want me to close us okay and with that thank you again I will adjourn PNC at 12 55 p.m. okay thank you and I will are we all good you need to you know okay great so and then I will do the same close conclude councils meeting at 12 55 and will we will reconvene at 2 o'clock at City Hall thank you