Feb 12, 2024 Historic Landmark Commission on 2024-02-12 5:30 PM

can't see anymore all right all right i am going to call the meeting to order for the regular meeting on monday february 12 20 24 it is 5 30 and so if we would i am calling it to the order if we could please stand for the pledge of allegiance i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all honor the texas flag i pledge allegiance to be texas one state under god one and indivisible appreciate that all right moving along our agenda is we are going to consider the approval of the minutes of the january 8th 2024 has everyone had a chance to look over those minutes i mean i think you got that one down there all right if you um i've had a chance to read those minutes if there's any things we need to know if not i will take motions to approve i move approval all right thank you all right all in favor raise your hands say aye all right carries unanimous thank you for that all right item 3a number hlc 24-005 on our agenda is to receive a report and hold a discussion on this new historic eligible structure map so that's why we got the gs so before jacob begins i just want to introduce jacob um crocker he's our grs analyst he has been of huge help on this he's like the mastermind behind this map um we've been working through since october october we're working on this map so we're really excited to launch it in front of you all today so you can kind of go through it all um jacob's gonna be here to kind of break it all down for you guys but i'm very excited and i will be here to assist him any questions evening y'all um so a couple of the goals here were to make the map a little bit more usable um so the first thing we did was the built-in web map for the website here we decided to just simply down do just what you need to know that's really just you've got the homes and you can click on a bit pops up and it gives you um kind of like a paragraph breakdown of what the home is um this is contrary to the past one where it had it more of as a table felt like this was a better for just people are looking at it it reads more like a story a little bit easier to digest um than just an attribute table uh now if we click on either you know this button here or the link they'll both take you to the same now you get more of what y'all saw in the old map um we've got our you know our table down here so you can look through if you really wanted to dive deep into the data um and we were a big focus of this map was to go and show homes that have been demolished or are renovated in some way where they lose they can possibly lose the fact that they're historically eligible um so that's kind of how we we changed the symbology um how the map looks so you're seeing green shows ones are still historically eligible um the gold shows exterior modifications red shows that the structure was demolished um that's too much red yeah so and we added some some filters so if you wanted to say um you know filter the map by the year the survey was done you could so you could just see what was filtered in 1996 versus 2012 versus 2015 or if you wanted to filter through the different types of alterations that we have gone through and then we just gave the community some text here just to kind of say you know what's what's this map about it's to help us designate properties do you want to walk me through how when you zoom in all of these information yeah so a lot of this information including the table and the chart does adjust automatically as you move in and out that way you're getting your data with your map you don't have to to guess you know here you can see there's okay in this map the u18 structures have been demolished since the 1996 survey whereas if you zoom out so you're up to 216 um now part part of this wasn't just the uh i guess the the front of the map we also went into the actual data of the map and kind of started from scratch so we went back to all three surveys took all the data combined them all and then tried to get as accurate as we could to where that house was when that service the original server is taken in 1996 so we we ended up partnering up with the Emily Fowler library they had a map from 1958 that took pictures of combined it all together you know had the house footprints so we used that as a backdrop to really help you know get our home locations as accurate as possible for those that have been demolished so that's why we're as accurate as we can be at this point and for the modifications that's that information is going to be updated bi-weekly we're going to go through and look at permits and see if any permits have been pulled for any of these structures and update this map as those are done so we look and just see we look at the permit and see what was done to the house to see if it you know if it's interior modifications and it's nothing with the exterior but we categorize it into our exterior modifications or primary structure demo or secondary structure so any questions about the the user capabilities or process we went through yes sir just on the map i don't know we don't usually allow public comment during the work session it's a question just why that is that the border on the south side of them like historic homes which the west of Sarco district well long teesley there's an old home that used to be a farmhouse it's not recognized it means it was not surveyed for any of those surveys at the time of the class it's registered i was just thinking it was a lot of good information and better organized before it could be useful so i was thinking had you ever considered going out to the black neighborhood associations getting on their calendar going out explaining to the neighbors with a focus on their area so that's definitely something that we can do um we just when did we just publish this last week yes so we're very empathy of it being just online but i think if you think that would be a great idea we'd be more than happy to go to the different neighborhood associations and kind of give them information regarding this map saying hey you know you're for idiot cell you're an idiot cell look at how many eligible properties you have in that area you know are you interested in designating and as jacob pointed out we've kind of listed those property owner and community benefits right up front so people understand what are the benefits of designating your property but also um sorry jacob here um one of the great things that jacob did is that so obviously as you scroll in you'll see some of those structure alterations as you scroll in but it also is showing us a year built and from what we've been able to determine a lot of our homes were built throughout the 1920s and 30s for the most part and so if we start to see more and more demolitions you know we're starting to see a lot of demolitions around UNT's campus which that happens as the universities grow we see some of that around TWU's campus um so i think it's really good not only for the data but it also helps tell a story so right now we're also in the process of getting the film from the 1996 survey digitized so we can add it to these um points because some of these points um as jacob was saying we kind of had to figure out based off the photography where these homes were especially for the demolished because our street layouts have changed in some areas um just the buildings in general have changed so we were kind of having to do educational research guessing in a way that's getting as accurate as possible as we could get um but we're hoping that this map not only helps with the designation process but it helps to tell a story of Denton you know obviously the sole purpose not the sole purpose but the main purpose is we want people to see how many historically eligible properties have been demolished which 216 that's that's pretty significant especially since we've only designated about i believe 20 properties since 1996 so you've seen more demolitions by a long shot than we've seen designations um and then with the addition of the photographs and some additional data as you all start to go through it you know i think we're more than happy to take the feedback Jacob can let me know whether or not the software can handle it but we're hoping that this is just a good start and you know not only people can use it for research but just get interested in what's going on in the city especially with permits. I was thinking that that house that we recently approved on Mariana I was thinking that that was a different thing than we had usually seen in terms of historical properties you know enlarging but yet maintaining right what was there and if people could understand that that was a possibility when somebody says well that structure is just not suitable for me it's too small that there may be a way to incorporate that into a larger structure that would serve you and would have the advantages of a historic designation but i think that people just don't know right so that that's why it occurred to me that that it might make a good program for a neighborhood association monthly or whatever however often they need Miami. And maybe add realtors to that. Yes, yes. I have a couple questions. On the first map or the previous map that I saw there was a priority designation is that still listed anywhere there was like a medium low and high priority for preservation? So right now we don't have that showing on the public side we still we still retain that information of course but just because all three surveys didn't record that data we decided just to not show it publicly. Does this map show properties in Denton that are designated? Yes so it has them as this light blue color here. So we have a legend key right here we just noticed that we need to get 314 period updates so yeah but yeah so everything is color proven so you'll see historically designated primary yeah but if you think that needs to live somewhere else this the software that Jacob uses is actually very like versatile and it's very helpful so we he can pick and choose where everything lives on the screen we just kind of put it to the edge because we didn't want that to be the main focus. No I think it's great I love that it's on the map my maybe I'm just too far away and if I was on a computer I was getting lost for me with the green I couldn't see the blue for all the green right but I think it's a again a powerful storytelling tool to say this is all that's eligible these are the you know the fewer many fewer that have actually been designated. And that that kind of was was the kind of goal for with the the color of the dots you know you and then you've kind of got to look for those historically eligible properties so it's kind of that's how it's portrayed in the map and we wanted the the modifications and demolitions to really pop out of the that be the the focus of of the map so you can see you know hey all this changes happen in these neighborhoods. Yeah so just for both of you number one great word this is fantastic I'm I'm digging it and I can't wait to dig in into this but I'm I'm a communications professor so I'm like okay communication plan how are we gonna use it what types of different uses because I can I can look at this and kind of not be afraid to like jump in look at it but then I share Lenny's concern about like outreach and awareness right like how does your average LA person how would they be able because I I feel like I couldn't share this in like a like a Facebook community group and say hey go check out this map and you know it might be a little much might be a little much however if I shared a video walkthrough it was just like three to five minutes you see what I mean like that that could be a difference maker and I'm just I'm just doing that out as ideas to explore when we think about how we can best put this in front of the public to maybe work with our you know city television production video production maybe make some of those things and then Cameron you mentioned that or who mentioned that like real estate agents I feel like if we could get some real estate agents who may be specialized in properties in these historic districts to kind of understand this as a way to also educate people that they're interacting with that might they they might see this as a useful tool because then that opens that conversation about whoa whoa what do you mean historic designation what do you mean that might mean money for renovation for you know renovations and things like that right as well as you know Lenny suggested to take the recent what I think is is a very interesting win to kind of open people's minds of course most people when you're talking about historic designation you're like whoa whoa whoa you're going to make you change all my stuff right I mean that's real like you know you're into that so um yeah just some ideas about a communication plan you know we can help with that um that might be something to put in future genus to explore and I think most people when he's talking about historic they immediately think oh yeah right yeah and they don't realize that there are these designations around and all the corners and properties like over by twu I think they mistake ancient history too you know it's like no no whoa whoa but I think it's a fascinating uh yeah tool that you have and so now I'm thinking um how do we get it out to the public get them aware of it because I find that most times when people are reluctant to do something it's because they just don't know great work I want to celebrate the win yes yes it's a wonderful two yes yeah nice if no one else has questions I do have a question so you you said um it went bad how many years did you say that not the survey but structure wise you're looking at the are you talking about the majority of the year built yes mostly 1920s and 30s and 30s that's what I thought that's what I thought I was saying so is there anything yeah so that's great there you go I just anything like where would we go beyond that like at what point would we say okay we have now 1962 which by the way is not that long ago just saying no that's recent history yes I just wonder past that but I think this is great and that's something you can look at for future but I think that's a great tool to have over beyond when we want to you know put another year on there too yeah I think that's fantastic yeah I think that something that we were talking about with um I can't remember what month it is may I think it's always may that's historic preservation month preservation that's it so that would be good and the mariana house that you have on there um if we did a video it'd be good to have an interview with that one too just yeah is that all great ideas yeah I have a question that could be more free camera so um you were talking about like the in terms of knowing what's happened to the buildings interior exterior sort of when permits are pulled that's when it gets flagged I I'm I'm thinking about right realistically what are the steps that somebody's going to take to preserve their home right to convince them go ahead and go spend ten thousand dollars or more to then qualify I wonder if there's a way talking about communication strategy or appealing to a captive audience of people that are already thinking about right they're already pulling permits they're buying homes and they're already thinking about what what might I invest in this to make it um is there a thought or a strategy about capturing people that are figuring out who it is that's already working to spend that money and then having that conversation about preservation versus going at it the other way um so I was gonna say I feel like in the past we've had conversations about maybe kind of having like a town hall and saying if you're interested in designing your property um you know come to this town hall learn more about that process what that looks like I think right now our tax incentives this is something I'll talk about more at the matrix when we get to the matrix but um I think our tax incentives need to be um kind of heightened or elevated especially for owner-occupied yes for owner-occupied lands is all about it but for those owner-occupied homes um because those are really the people that I'm having conversations with I think Lacey's had conversations when I haven't been at the office so those are people that we're constantly hearing from are those owner-occupied so I think we can tell them and share with them what we have now and kind of that town hall setting but I think there are a lot of things that we need to do behind the scenes to make our local benefits even better so I know that doesn't directly answer your questions but I think there's still maybe a step or two before we yeah yeah yeah make sense and there was a time to your point there was a time back when ten thousand dollars was unlocked that sounds like a lot I'm going to tell you put a roof on you know wait insurance is now I need to you know deductibles are huge and stuff it's like man it doesn't take long that's a great point unfortunately but we can think of a range of incentives so I mean because they're that's that's the thing it's like to get yes outside of I mean tax yes got it money yes but there are other yeah great discussion great job it's a fine stuff it is I didn't I didn't do that to make you sit down oh sorry all right it was a five-star average yes okay moving along on item 3b number hlc 24-003 on our agenda is to receive a report and hold a discussion and give staff direction on the historic landmark commission's request for local historic designation of eligible historic properties maybe on that same topic so this is where has anyone found any a property that you would like to put on the list maybe next time so I think the map is helpful for that very reason because the three properties that I had my eye on that I think to give you homes so I don't think we can but I don't know for sure but that would map I can go directly to that map now and look to see instead of having to do all of that research so I think that that's helpful if you have enough information can I ask about related like any follow-up on the viewers farm so they haven't turned in any applications or anything they are going to preserve the farmhouse the cemetery portion of it I believe that the planner on the project did inform them and they just plan on avoiding that area right now until they actually turn in applications but I believe they are have been made aware by the planner she told me they were going to she was going to tell them last week so and they are preserving the farmhouse correct yeah they're going to integrate that into the overall feature yes we have that in writing sometimes this is via teams discussions and I do have some emails of saying there's interest in turning into an amenity center you bet okay baby steps any other discussion on on item three b I'm sorry I think it's on I think it's still on just item have have has staff heard back from any of the African American churches I approached them during the Quaker Town celebration and they all received envelopes yes gave them a little bit of information and yes so thank you for reminding me I've heard from Pleasant Grove Baptist Church they are interested in getting designated primarily at the state level because they are eligible for a tax exemptions at the state level so they have reached out to me one of their members of their congregation actually works for the city so we had a meeting and conversation and she said that they they were going to vote to kind of inquire more and she said that they had that discussion last week and so I'm hopefully going to meet with her this week or next week to kind of move through that process yeah all right thank you for doing that too sometimes you got to be a vet and see you know I remember it was called that day okay next item on the agenda is 3c number hlc 24-004 on our agenda is to hold a discussion regarding the historic landmark commissions project matrix so um I know two of the requests that quantify the economic impact of preserving historic properties and then the discussion regarding benefits for preserving historic properties and how other cities are incentivizing owners that was supposed to be for this month we are still in the process of working on that data but I think the March 18th will be pretty interesting conversation so hopefully everyone can be in attendance for that but Jacob and his team are working on all the data information and cleaning and diving into that so we'll talk about kind of the economic impact and incentivizing property owners and everything in March and then the presentation for preliminary guidelines I've just put that on hold just because we no longer have that subcommittee in place and then the walking tour and our focus group for historic property owners we will schedule that sometime in the spring so Lacey will reach out to you all via email with a few dates and go from there we're thinking primarily just because we're still dealing with you know the light or the sun going down a little bit earlier so we might need to do it towards the end of a work day I know that can be very difficult for people and their schedules so that's why we're going to throw out a few dates I don't know if anyone is available on Saturdays and Sundays also I know it's everyone's weekend maybe not exactly what you want to do because this is volunteer based but just trying to work in where we can maybe have those two meetings but we'll be in touch with you all in the next week and then this was the item from January that Commissioner McAdams have to place on for HLC's consideration so you all can take a vote on that tonight if you want to and then obviously our annual updates with our 2024 work goals well I think that what Commissioner McAdams had on here for the quarterly HLC meetings to educate property owners that goes along with the map that you discussed for sure absolutely I would like us adding to that not just quarterly but to expand because of the great things that have happened with Marietta Street possibly doing if and I don't I think that homeowner would do a video for us he seems very willing and I would like to see if that would could possibly do that on what his experience was I do what a testimonial absolutely yes absolutely and if we could start with that and like when you say pictures if he would allow to go in for updates on his project and what's what's going on with it I consider that a win I think realtors would love that as well but just what all he went through his experience yeah because I think that is yeah provide training to local realtors and makers is one of y'all's 2024 goals so so if you if I guess we need to decide what we kind of want the wording to be or I guess the general idea for those quarterly HLC meetings so that we can vote on it and then I can add it to the matrix as a request that we kind of have living on there so we do need to get a vote okay all right do I have a motion for us to keep this to put this on the matrix I'll make that motion to put this on the matrix and this would be as a quarterly target correct well we can word it that's what we're saying your motion you can help word that okay quarterly HLC meetings to discuss and educate the story so okay yeah I'll make a motion for us to create an agenda or a template with such a project okay any discussion agenda slash in next month or by by March or April as as staff's schedules or second second all right all in favor are you ready to say yes are there any others that we've talked about wanting to add to this anything with it matrix tag on to it related to this can we request staff can can we like get a meeting with the videographers or maybe they come and we ask about their schedule and availability to maybe record some little things for us oh with denton television yeah I would say I can speak with the director of denton television and see I did have a briefing with him back in January after our January meeting and we can't do an introductory video just because no other boards or commissions have really done something like that and once we do it for HLC we'd have to do it for everyone right also it would change it would also require if you know boards and commissions if someone resigns someone is removed the next day they're going to constantly having to re-update that so um but there is interest and that they do want to assist us in getting the positive news out there about the historic landmark commission um they just said we might need to do some moly over and think about how we kind of display that so we can definitely have that kind of larger conversation with them and just see what are some of their ideas of getting the good news out there let's focus on what we can do so could we do that video so if we had a testimonial could it go on the dentin website for testimonials under the HLC tab something like that yeah that if that's doable I would say I can definitely ask I know that would be partially city secretary's office um and they did when I spoke to them they did say that we can add additional information under like our historic landmark commission board tab but I don't know if that includes videos but I can ask them about that as well yeah because maybe we might be or maybe the property owner could find a filmmaker who wants to do a little documentary like the um wants to open a film festival in line there you go welcome festival and also we have of course media production at UNT that they're always curious about possible student projects so yeah we might also ask about an internship or something at some point but that would be a great conversation to have with them if that becomes a project that would help them attract and train interns and absolutely I have one other question on this matrix well we talked about the walking tour yes I think it's great I'm just thinking with the walking tour limit like not everything is within walking distance that's just what my mind went correct so um we would have to split it into two different days okay and um that's kind of why Lacey's going to send out a couple different dates just to see um you know I know not every date will work for everyone um we'd also have to put a notice of possible forum out for these kind of tours but it we do not expect everyone to walk every single historic district in one day and put on your walking shoes that well but we're also trying to get it completed before the summer because it's gonna be way too hot yeah and I don't expect anyone is I'm not I'm not gonna do it I know you guys don't want to do it it's too warm here um to do that during the summer so um I can kind of mull it over a little bit more and work with Lacey and we'll kind of figure out what makes most sense and maybe do some mapping and but um we'll send those dates within the next week but it definitely won't be um all at once okay and just to clarify that is for this committee to go and explore historic yeah yes yes explore those properties that you all have jurisdiction over and see kind of where we are in terms of maintenance how it's looking um just to kind of piggyback off just real quick as a so long just sorry but just to in terms of like historic districts um you know I'm getting complaints or calls about like the streets themselves so a lot of people are saying hey our our streets are part of our historic districts but they're not being maintained or they're over you know saturated with too many cars on the streets but you're asking us to maintain our properties which are connected straight to the streets so you know we're getting arguments like that from historic property owners so I think it'll just be very interesting to walk around especially during the school day work day especially around the different campuses which are closer to the universities to kind of get a feel for what our historic districts are dealing with on a daily basis but also just to see what properties you all are working with we had a council member not very long ago our members say but we have to remind the people who live in historic districts they don't own the streets just like the rest of us don't you don't own the street because I know they're they're discussing what they're going to do about parking on some of those on oak street in particular so you know we might want to invite council members to come join us on the block hey I think that's a great idea why not or at least the district you know the different district council members that were walking I think that's a great idea yeah they are but I think it's valid points we need to take under consideration so yeah keep an eye out this training for this matrix is it anywhere down in like the annual goals I'm just curious if you you had mentioned previously training opportunities yes so a lot of training opportunities are actually online now so I'm going to be sending those out as they're sent to me but I do not have any requests for a training session but I'm more than happy to do kind of a preliminary dive and do a overall um especially for our new commissioner student kind of overhaul of everything that HLC has jurisdiction over but also just the different levels of destinations and all that so I'm happy to do that if we want to add it to the majors um I mean are we am I correct in that we are required to do training annually yes one commissioner from uh is required to do training each year as part of the certified local government a minimum of one yes and that is something that we have um struggled with in the past and that we have received lower scoring on um to complete the training it's just regular educational training continuing education so um I believe for my first two years I did usually a topic um training topic each agenda in 2021 and 2022 but then we didn't have any new commissioners so we kind of had gotten through our training um and then from there it was just the requirement of the one commissioner at minimum doing annual but I'm more than happy to kind of bring some of those um past presentations back just to give you all get you up to speed and we did some training on our own so we know what what I mean is that wasn't like part of the this is what you have to do we did training on solar panels yes yes we did so we probably didn't get credit for that some things like that right I mean we did so yeah so we could do that too if you were looking you wanted something specific which we found very enlightening I don't know that I have any specific things in mind but they're half of us are pretty thinking new to this right so maybe it would be helpful to do some training to get some knowledge about what we you're gonna make that request oh we don't think the rest of us all like up on these things we're not we're just being longer okay so I make a request how do I do that how do I say that properly you would like to request additional training moving forward topics I was gonna say topics to be determined topics to be determined yeah like I can bring I can basically bring like some type of training each session topics of general interest to relevance of service on the computer okay so we need that in a motion for us we need that in a motion and then we need to put training on the calendar for general topics to be determined thanks for is relevant to these interests in the commission I'll second that one anyone else have anything any other business to discuss if there's no other business we're adjourned at 6 12 p.m so before you guys leave I got the commission of present oh shoot it just went 314 I didn't want to put the whole address on there because I thought maybe they would be a little freaked out on the cake but that just looks like a very early pie day yeah it has actually dang it that's also me