Nov 29, 2023 Mobility Committee on 2023-11-29 8:00 AM

Good morning. We are here at the Mobility Committee meeting Wednesday, November 29, 2023, 8 a.m. in our council work session room. We are going to start with our citizens' comments. Have you all heard of any citizens' comments from anyone that we need to speak on? All right? There's no citizens' comments. So the second thing, items for individual consideration, we are going to start with AMC 23-048, consider approval of the minutes of October 25, 2023. Is there any movement made? I'm sorry, I'm a little bit distracted. And I second. I'm going to vote. All right. So minutes are approved. BMC 23-049, receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the city that didn't transportation/mobility project status report. Good morning. Oh, there's Mr. Brandon. Oh, Councilmember McKee. Good morning. That's okay. We're just getting started. Obviously, we're right in here, right in between everything. Is that mine? Wow, I did that. Look at that. I did that. He did it all by himself. Yes, I did. My name is John Polster with Innovative Transportation Solutions, and I'm here to give the update on the transportation projects within City of Denton, mostly on system projects. We're working on projects that average about $4 billion, we're all told, once they're completed. And we'll start right off with I-35 North. You'll note that there's ready-to-let dates, and there's let dates. Those are because of where the money is in the fiscal years. But essentially, just by the way, the luck of the draw occurred. The purple 076 job is currently under construction with -- you all see that, too. I thought I was imagining that thing on the bottom. The 455 project that's going from the high school on the east all the way out to 2449. And then the next two projects that are let, just because of the timing on the utilities, is the 081 to the north and the 116 to the north. And then last will be the 074, which starts right where 77 ties in to 35 and goes all the way north. It'll be six lanes, and it's a total of about $800 million, and the funding is secured in those accounts for those different categories. And there's really no issues other than everything you see there with those bullets or all utilities that we are working to make sure they hit their completion dates. And it literally goes from A to Z on the number of firms we're working with. I apologize. >> So on this item last month, there was -- forgive me, I forgot to look at the previous report. One of the companies had not been chatting with you? >> Bolliver Water. When we sent you this report, I think it was like a week ago, we ended up getting in contact with Bolliver Water, and they are going to be able to hit our marks that we need them to, and it's not going to require us to facilitate any of their work with financial assistance. So we'll correct that on the next report. But yes, we are -- that's what we do. We just keep going down every one of the utilities, and when they have an issue, we work with them to see if we can't get it resolved cordially, and if not, financially, and then a third thing. >> Appreciate that. Thank you. >> I have a question. >> Yes, ma'am. >> This is an education question. When you're doing projects like this, and we notice, of course, recognizing the amount of work that's being done underneath there, what would be -- what's the thing that could hold up a project like this, you know, more substantially? >> Right. So the -- every project that has federal money on it goes through essentially three stages. The first stage is environmental clearance, and depending upon the newness of the road or the impact, the level of environmental clearance can be programmatic where you just check a box or incredibly involved where you have to do a deep dive, and it goes from six months to five years on the spectrum. Second is concurrent with that because you have to do 30% design in order for the environmental document to know what to -- what you're impacting. The second phase is to take it all the way through design, but it's not just design. It's the design, which are the plans, specifications, which type of material, and then an estimate so that the state will have a document that they can put on the street. Depending on the project, that could be two years or more. >> Is that going on at the same time? >> It's concurrent. So what you'll do is you get to 30% on the design, get to the environmental document, and then about six months before you're cleared, you really press on -- because you have to be able to respond to the public on their concerns, so you don't want to fully design it until then. Then you do the design, and then that design is never the issue. So as soon as it's cleared, what happens is you start to design and you begin right away acquisition and utility relocation in that order, usually. And right away usually takes about a year, and utilities can take about a year as well, and that's going on at the same time as you're doing the design. And typically what you do is you hold the design back at 95%. So if you'll look on the PS&E here, we are working on the 100% PS&E. We want to wait, right? Because if something changes, we want to be able to make that change in the last 5%. So when the right of way is acquired, the utility is relocated, and we finish the 100% design, then the project is called ready to let. It's ready to be funded. And on our projects you'll see most of the time there is a let date and/or funding. A lot of times there isn't any funding, so the let date is an asterisk. We don't know when we're going to get the money. But all told from the beginning of Iwanta Road to the road going under construction, somebody like me or this fine crowd here, Becky, we've all been working on it from anywhere from three to seven years. Okay. So that is -- thank you so much. Because I think it's just important that folks out there know that what they're seeing right now has already been worked on. For years. For years. And then when we see that word ready to let, that means now we've got to get the funding from all the work that we've done. We did all the work, everything except going to construction. Okay. So like when you look at 35 out there around Mayhill, you see a lot of construction going on out there. Oh, yeah. I love it. But that's just the utilities being relocated. Okay. They're getting out of the way. Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. And then same conversation on the merge except that this project will go -- sorry. See, everything in my chivalrousness wants me to crawl down there and do that for you. I don't know what I'm doing either. I didn't say they did. It's my nature. It's my nature. I was raised by three older sisters. I know they don't. No, that was just him. So this project is just under a half a billion at $480 million. And this project will go to construction. You'll see that the ready to let date and the let date are the same. So we got a couple of utilities with some dates in here, April, April, or before. And we're going to let that project on the assumption that we're going to hit that mark. And this is from the merge, both E and W, about North Texas Boulevard up and just north of the rural track up all the way to 77. It'll be six lanes. And then between the merge and 380, there'll be additional pavement for the future toll managed lanes. So come April, this thing goes under the knife. I have a question. Yes, ma'am. You mentioned something about the toll managed lanes. How quickly can those be opened up after it's decided that they're going to be opened up? So the problem with this part of the toll managed lanes is that everything from the lake to here, when we did the interim project, we didn't buy all the right of way. And we didn't put the footprint in place that is needed for the able to add the managed lanes. So it'll be a while before we get from basically the lake to here with the toll managed lanes. And the reason that is when we did the estimate back whenever that was 2012, we had one point. So if you look, there's 480 million and 800. So real quick, that's about $1.3 billion. The interim job from 380 all the way down to 635 was $1.4 billion. And so we had the option of either building an interim, which in this case was putting a size 13 shoe foot into a size seven shoe, right? Or spend a billion to on right away, get all the right away, but not build anything. And so the state decided that that would look bad. So they built the interim. And so we're doing breakout jobs. Mayhill up here, further south, we're doing 1171, 121 in corporate, we're doing breakouts. Because once you get all the big structures widened, it's easy to come in and do the main lanes in between. But it'll be a while. And I don't want to speculate because there's dog years, people years and highway years. And I'm talking about a while in highway years. But this goes under the knife in April. And here's another one of those breakout jobs. It's just right at about 125 million. It's the Mayhill project. And this includes the northbound frontage road and all the work at Mayhill plus the bypass at Brinker. Because the southbound frontage road was built with the interim job because of the buckets coming in. So we're looking at being ready to let just next year, first part of next year, and if we can in this current unified transportation program, move that $124 million up into this current UTP that they're drafting, then we can let it sometime in '24. Because if the money is funded, it's just in '25. And there's always projects that are not making their mark. And so they need to rearrange the dominoes, for lack of a better word. And we're going to put our project in as a candidate for that. And it shouldn't be a problem because we don't have -- you'll see we have category two, which are cog funds, and then category four, which are the district's funds. So it shouldn't be a problem because the ones that give you trouble if you need to move around too much are your category 12 funds. Because those are clear lanes and strategic priority, and those are picked by the commission. And there's always a political reason for that. So we don't have that on this project. So we think that if we can stay on course for the February '24, during this current UTP update, we'll be able to move it up. I think that's my favorite project right now. Mine, too. I live over there. Because it impacts me quite greatly more than any of them. In y'all's job on the Mayhill Bridge, that's going to be a game changer over there. It sure is. Excited about that. Okay. So now we move over to the other 35W, 35W, 35, which is 30W. And we are -- this project had been environmentally cleared since 2020. And so we're buying right away. And the reason it's so long between the environmental clearance and right away acquisition is they're only giving us tranches of money for right away at a time. So they're not giving it to us all at once. And so you'll see here that it's 341 million for the two frontage roads and there's an Astracon funding, which means that all we have on this project is money for right away, no construction dollars. And the reason it's 341 is because every structure 2449, 407, Cleveland Gibbs, everything in between, all the bridges in between, we're reconstructing the bridges at their ultimate width and configuration with the frontage road. So it's not just the frontage road job, it's the frontage road and several large interchanges. And we're going to be ready to let in 25. And there is no money. So when there's no money and there's an Astrac you usually look over here and it's, it's always five years or better out because that's no man's land in funding for transportation. And those 5.57 miles. Yes, just because it would cut it in half. It's from the 2449 to 407 and then 407 down to Del Arnhardt is the next one. And then 2449 up to the railroad track. And the reason that is, if you see here, that's nothing but really a lot of flood plain area. And so nobody wants to touch it. Okay. So your project on 380 out east, we are looking at being done next month. And it's looking like they're going to stick onto that completion date. And this was where we took the road and we went six lanes when it used to be for take away the flush median and put in a raised median with protected left turn. So it's added capacity and improved safety. And going forward, if we need to look at tweaking median openings, that's always possible as long as the city supports it. Because the, that median is just basically pegged to the concrete except on the bridge. That's where those, that's where those new neighborhoods or frontage stores or something like that. You'd be able to navigate openings when they come through or those say it'll be primarily where, where the city wants them. And if you agree with something that a business wants, then we can look at it as long as it fits within the design criteria. But yeah, you don't want to have too many openings because then you go back to the problem you had before. And we're going to six lanes. And the reason that's important is when you have to take a right to make a U-turn to come back, you can do the U-turn with six lanes. You can't do it with four. And so we're, we're adding that third lane, which actually ends up being your essentially your right turn lane. Okay. And then loop 288 West Frontage Road. So when I said that somebody has been working on this, you know, five to seven, 10 years with this one was, I started this when I was single and young and handsome. And now I've got three kids out of college and it's, it's been a whippin, but we are cleared in 2020 the right away. The reason the right away is taking that along is because all those white dots you see are gas wells and we have to deal with those concurrent with the utility relocation in the right at the same time. But we are pressing head. We've got everything resolved at Underwood on the south end. And this is where, this is where the 35 job will stop that I just showed you before. It goes from 2449, which will eventually be loop 288 South to 407. So you'll be able to bypass. And I don't know what's happened lately. I don't know if you've been out there, but I've traveled this road multiple times in the last 10 days and the traffic is getting backed up so bad going north, it goes all the way to the little creek underpass. So when we start 35, we'll wish we had 288 and then the other 288. So we are pressing head with a July, 2025 environmental clearance we've done. We met with tech stock. My firm met with tech start and the consultant just before the holidays had to come to Jesus with that on the tie in. And we're going to, there are currently four alternatives that were being shown to the public. When we bring it back to you, there will only be two. So we'll cut our trauma in half by the time we get here. And we're looking at design speed. So a 70 mile an hour design speed has flatter vertical and horizontal curves than a 60. And it makes it where you can't miss as much. And so we're looking at looking at a lower design speed because it's really supposed to be a connection, not a freeway. So we'll bring all that stuff back to you probably before you will get with Becky before your next mobility and then we'll figure out how to get you the info. Do we have any more clarity on on that, that bypass alignment? Where exactly that's going? And you know, I know you're saying you're taking down from from, you know, getting rid of two options, but I think we're missing the endpoint and not that bypass, right? No, no, the bypass, the connections from 380 to 288 is everything else is working inside the lines for lack of a better word. It will be, so I refuse to answer that on the grounds of incriminating. Give us a little bit of time. But with the outer, I'll continue this, the outer two alternatives are the least viable and that's where the ones that impacted the most people. And when we looked at it and tech, the consultant was saying we're impacting 14 homes. They were talking about out here on this part of because they're saying, well, we know 380 is going to be a freeway in the future, so we're just going to go ahead and buy the right away and do it now. And I was a consultant saying that. And so after I fired them and then hired them back, we're going to stop the project because it can be 20 years where I mean, the interim, I just showed you the interim is going to be done in December, Texas going to want to get their money out of that because that has five interchanges. So it's going to be a while before we do the freeway. So one of the things we discussed was just truncating the end project wherever it makes sense to transition from what you're direct connecting from to 380 as the existing arterial, which is the sixth lane with a median. So we're shrinking the end, pulling in the alternatives and then seeing if we can get a design speed that allows us to miss things. And if you don't mind, the other thing that I noticed the public had a lot of concern on and y'all were looking at was the, the additional cemetery that we all knew about as citizens, but I don't know that the consultants understood was there. Did we get any clarity? Yeah, we, we identified it and we were looking because if we take out, remove those two alternatives further out, we're not even we're not near it. Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you. But it's, the problem is, is if I share it with you right now, you'll share it. And then it's, it's going to be old and I want to make sure I'm giving you the right stuff and I need a little bit more time. Okay. Sure enough. Bonnie Bray. So again, Bonnie Bray is this part of the 288 job. So we just show it as a breakout for you because it's shown as Bonnie Bray seven and you're reporting. So it's part of our environmental clearance process and it'll be paid for by the people who build this project, which is probably the County and the state. So that's why we show it as a separate project. 1515 we're on the mark still moving forward. There's no really critical path items for completion of the, all the components for ready to let of June of 2025, we're just muddling through all the utilities and changing. So until we get closer to the project, we, the state and the County in general, if the city or developers or anybody comes in and says, Hey, we need to make a couple of changes because of whatever school goes out there, the, um, we hold plans back so that we can accommodate those things as we're going forward. So primarily we're working on the utilities and working with the railroad and the design, we're just holding it until we get closer to the right away and utilities being done. So we have flexibility to change things that we need. So 1173 the right aways, the right away is acquired for this project. We're going to probably look at building some part of this with the 35 job. We have a meeting with crumb. Uh, I think it's this week on the aesthetics of this intersection. And, uh, that's kind of the last thing we had to do from a environmental standpoint is to see what they want to do aesthetically, let them know what their options are. And then we can incorporate that into the environmental document, but we're on track for an RTL of 25 with the exception of everything east of the railroad track, which we've already progressed that farther because we're going to add that to the 35 job. I have a question. Is that downtown crime? That is literally that little tiny little corner space right there. And they went, yes, no, yes, no, yes on whether or not they even wanted us to go down in there because it's all historic. So that's, that's what is driving the breaking on the environmental cause until we know exactly what they want us to do, we won't know the impacts in there. Everything there is historical and as you know, uh, you step off the sidewalk and you're in the road, you're in the street. So I mean, everything behind the sidewalk is historical. So it's going to be hard slog. We have another question here. Um, it's on. Um, I just heard you say, um, from 35, uh, the section of 1173 going to 35, you are going to do wrapped up in the 35 project. Yes, sir. Okay. Cause we're building the two projects break at 77 and we want to go ahead and just get the connection built so that it's fair. Um, so we don't have to come back and impact those properties twice. It makes sense. I just just want to make sure. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. So it just makes me ask, and I think we asked this before, so I'm going to apologize for repeating myself. What happens to the old 1173 intersection at 35? It just dead ends? No, uh, the state's going to want the city to take it at some point, but we, they always want to have that conversation sooner than we want to have that conversation. So, uh, you don't have to, but, uh, it would be this section of the road right here where it deviates. And so what we're talking about doing is also, um, moving this at grade to here, which would mean that this would be a U-turn or a dead end and this would be a dead end. Uh, so this would be basically a long drive and this would be a drive back and we tie this road back into the future 1173. So they still have access. They just got a, we can't cross a railroad track, but you don't have to say yes, but they start sweating you as you go forward on things. So the section east of the track between track and 35 would only be accessible to the access road of 35. Is that correct? Correct. So if you live, and I don't know who lives here, but if you, if you live here, you'd still do what you always do. Come out and go this way. If you want to go this way, you got to come out, go this way, come back up. Are there any homes that are currently there? I didn't think anything. I don't think there is anything there. We expect some future growth, right? So we would, we would want to orient it towards the freeway as opposed to the railroad tracks. So all those conversations will happen when the state comes to the city and says, as John's mentioning, this roadway is now going to be taken off system. It's no longer going to be a state of Texas roadway and the transportation planning team along with the capital projects engineering team would have conversations to understand the implications, what works best in coordination with the mobility plan. There are other roadways in this area that at some later date will be connected or constructed. Currently, everything east of the railroad track minus one home that has not been lived in for some period of time. Everything east of the railroad track currently is development on the south side of 1173. So all those conversations will happen at that time. And the city will make the decision as to whether or not they want to take over portions of the roadway, all of the roadway and parts of the reason why John's mentioning the at grade crossing, possibly moving locations is anytime. And we've mentioned this to you before you work with the railroad. There's the conversation of a one to one swap typically doesn't happen. It's typically a one to two or a one to three. So there's a lot of conversations still to be had. There's a lot of decisions that will have to be made. But it'll really rely on what currently is a part of the mobility plan and then what the city sees as a comfort level. It's all industrial currently on the east side of the railroad track. So taking into consideration anything that will happen in that area. And one multifamily on the north side of 1173. I'm sorry, I was thinking on the south side. There is one multifamily that's being constructed on the north side. So all of those conversations will come into play as far as what's the best way to get folks in and out that entire area is going to look and if you've been out that way, it looks completely differently. I mean, it's currently being resurfaced by the developments that are in that area for a large portion of it, but not the complete portion. So there will be a lot of conversations that will have to be we're talking we're talking years. So highway years? Yes, because we're just now getting around on Elm and Locus and we started that conversation many, many moons ago. It was years. So it takes a long time for everybody to agree on a turn back. So and I'm still arguing that if you say no, they'll just turn it into business 1173 and wait for you to ask them for anything. And if this is a later conversation, I'm happy to just say, I don't know yet or something. Will this track the same way as Elm and Locus like they'll make improvements before we take it? Or maybe whatever is up for whatever you all feel comfortable with. You don't have to buy the house, right? I just didn't know all of when roads are turned over to the city, if they all kind of work the same way as we're seeing with Elm and Locus. That's all. It depends. Each project is separate. And in this particular case, what they're going to argue is they gave you back a road called Bartow, just now 1173. And they're going to do the cul-de-sac-ing because they have to in order to get the crossing at the new location. So and it's still their road. Thank you. Okay. Nobody wants to talk about the outer loop, right? Nobody. We move on. The only thing we're working on is tweaking the Milam Road connection. So that first job I showed you, 35 North, it includes the box for the outer loop as originally envisioned by the city's thoroughfare plan and the county's thoroughfare plan. The county has since bought everything out there for their Expo Center area. And there are some concerns about where the road, because if you look on the map, 156 is just right there, just to the west. And you've got this outer loop tying into 35 and you've got this little short jaunt to get to 156. So the state's going to want to make that connection. And so because we can on a $800 million job, we are simply going to extend the bridge structure because Milam will be at grade and 35 will go over. We're just going to extend the bridge another 800 feet to the south so we can hit anywhere in that thousand foot hole because surrounding air on a project like that. So we don't know where outer loop is going to be, ultimately on the west. So we're just giving ourselves some flexibility on the 35 job. And then everything else we're tracking with the Corps of Engineers. The Corps is telling us that that, and y'all, I think y'all are in a concurrence with this, that the only place we can cross the Green Belt is at 428 existing. And the current plan is since it's only 150 feet wide and we need 500 feet for the freeway, and the Corps is going, good luck with that. So we're looking at a stack scenario where it'd be the frontage roads would be at grade and the main lanes would go over. So it'd be stacked like this so it all comes up and then goes back out so we don't impact and go outside the footprint that's already existing there. And then everything else is pretty much just stuff. Those are the ones I think y'all can care about, is Milan and the Green Belt. I have a question. You bet. The county, oh okay, I was just going to ask where does Denton, will the, will the, I'm trying to figure out where does Denton begin in that area. What's the, what's the, is it Milan Road or north of Milan Road or south of Milan Road? So really honestly to be best we would need to be able to show you the city limits map because there is a sliver that goes up through. So if you can very faintly see the purplish color, that's kind of an outline block along 428. So a lot of that is city of Denton city limits but it'd be best for us to show you on a map. It's almost like you should like have a map like right here over there. Yeah, good idea. So one of the things we're doing that I think y'all might be interested in is this is a 23 mile long dam and watershed goes to Dallas. One of the things we're looking at doing is making the outer loop a best management practices water conveyance scenario where we would take the water, hold it, not hold it and let it slowly trickle down the Trinity River but hold it and let it through, we haven't figured this part out yet, push it into the aquifers so that we recharge the aquifer because we're at the tip end of the aquifer so if the aquifer starts to dry up, we dry up first. So we're going to try to do something where we chase the waterways further north and south so that they're larger hold and that they move towards a filtration system that allows us to safely put rainwater, stormwater into the groundwater and nobody knows how to do that yet so we're going to figure it out on the way. John, I know you said not to invoke the Texas Parks and Wildlife because it's scary with the regulations but if you're actually talking about detention areas that you want to drain from then the one billion dollars would come in very handy to get some of that land to drain it into the aquifer and all kinds of other things. I may have changed my mind on that because we are actually a, Corps of Engineers put out this nationwide, I don't know what the program was but we got to be the pilot so we are actually doing this in concurrence with shoulder to shoulder with the Corps of Engineers so this is something they were wanting to look at so I think it would be easy and if you've got to deal with the Corps, you might as well just throw in the Texas Parks and Wildlife because they're not any worse than the Corps to deal with. So yes, I think that we probably need to go back and look at that but we're making it up as we're going along because we can't find anywhere in the nation where somebody's used a road to recharge an aquifer and we just think it's environmentally the right thing to do because otherwise what the Corps of Engineers and what Cog wants to do is take all of this land from half of Wise County and all of Denton County and turn it into a detention pond. They don't want you to develop. They wanted to leave it so that it doesn't push water down to Dallas because they didn't plan properly and that's not going to fly so we've got to come up with an alternative. We've got the outer loop, we've got everybody's attention, we've got the Corps, we're going to see if we can figure out some way to -- and it may be an amenity, right, where one of the things I'm envisioning is is you may be in the areas where you can widen the right of way so that you have a linear lake in between the main lanes, right, and it stays constant because we're slowly recharging the aquifer and it takes longer to recharge the aquifer than it does to send it downstream. So it's all up in the air. It's going to -- it will just cost the county about $7 million to try to study it. >> You can have another Lila in the north if you want to. >> Clearly. >> It makes people happy. >> Yeah. Some of them. Anyway, I thought y'all would be interested in that. We're trying to be good stewards of the watershed. And here's where I stop talking. >> Thank you, John. Elm and Locust has two different steps that we're currently working through right now. First is a resolution, as we've talked to you about before, to actually take over Elm and Locust from 380 all the way to Eagle Drive. That resolution is specific to the actual right of way description of those roadways. It has nothing specifically written about the construction that's going to happen from TxDOT or the construction that's going to happen in concurrence with the county bond funding receiving -- that we've received and also the project that Trevor's team is currently delivering for the water and sewer relocations north of the courthouse, drainage improvements and of course that roadway completion. At this time, we are working with TxDOT on how to move forward with taking a resolution forward that would turn over a roadway to the city of Denton without a similar agreement that states that they are going to complete the project they're supposed to complete and that we are going to have the opportunity to complete the project we need to complete north of the courthouse. So I'm working with TxDOT on that. I don't want to send a resolution through council to approve and take over the roadway until I have some kind of agreement that states they're going to complete, which I know they're going to. We have multiple conversations. Everyone's in alignment. They're in agreement. But we need some kind of documentation that states that. And so until we get to that point, which we are currently working through with TxDOT -- Travis actually just emailed me today -- then you will not see that resolution come forward. Been working on the resolution. Everything's ready to go. But we also need some kind of document, whether it's an agreement through TxDOT, et cetera, that says they're going to complete their portion of the project. They are working through all of the plans. Their plans are very close to completion, and they anticipate starting construction on the southern portion in 2024. But we just want to have both of those documents in hand or some type of agreement before we move forward. >> And that's really not a minor thing because I worked for Crowley as well, and Crowley has 1187 going through it, and they wanted to turn back and do some stuff. And they needed -- because if you keep TxDOT in the loop, if there's any federal money that you need to move or do stuff, then the state pays the 20% local match. And Crowley, being good citizens as they were, without my acknowledgement or notice, passed a resolution saying that they would take over 1187, and they didn't put any of the wiggle words in there. And so the commission adopted it two months later. And then when I went back to try to get the local match from the state, they said, that's not our road. So you don't want that to happen. So you need the belt of suspenders on this. >> So and I know we've been talking about it coming forward, but when I had the conversations at the state in Austin with the real estate specialist that I worked with, based on Travis's recommendation, it's a dual track process that needs to be taken through. And the resolution is, like I said, specifically just for the land takeover. It has nothing to do with the agreement or the construction that TxDOT has to complete or the construction that the county and the city are working on. So we don't want to take over a roadway until we have that confirmation, whether it be an agreement or whether we bring the resolution forward after the construction is all completed. So just trying to protect the city in this perspective. >> Absolutely. Okay. Let's do a test. That's all I got. >> Thank you, John. >> I think you're welcome. I mean, you are welcome, but I don't know where I was at. >> Okay. Well, then that takes us to CMC 23. Did you all have any other questions? I forgot to ask. Okay. So that's going to take us to CMC 23-051. Receive a report, hold a discussion, and approve the mobility committee 2024 meeting schedule. >> All righty. Thank you very much. So as we do annually, we want to take the opportunity to go through the calendar for the 2024 calendar year. And one of the things, and I'll bring that up, one of the things that we wanted to also discuss today is the time of the meeting. So currently you can see the time or the dates for January all the way through December. You will note that the November and December meetings instead of being the fourth Wednesday of the month have been moved to the third Wednesday of the month due to the Thanksgiving and Christmas holiday weeks. And the purpose of the discussion today is to make sure that we all come in agreement as to what time that meeting can start. And we currently have the meeting starting at 8 a.m. I do want to make mention that we do have staff that has to come in around 630, 645 a.m. to make sure, which they're happy to do, but to make sure that everything's ready and set up because this is live. And so there are some logistical things that do happen on those time frames. We would like to possibly recommend a 9 or 10 o'clock time frame, but wanted to give you all the opportunity to have that discussion as a committee and settle on what time you think is best. And then once that's all approved, you will receive the invitations from Megan. And we will work with the city secretary's office to make sure that the calendar is reserved for all of those dates starting in January on the 24th. So with that, I will open it up for y'all's discussion. Well, I will go first. And either one of you all can speak afterwards. I am good with the dates. Okay. The times I am good with 9 o'clock and could certainly work my schedule to 10 o'clock. I just happen to be retired. So let me throw that in for you. So I'm good with either time, preferably 9. Okay. But I'll certainly go with 10. All right. Well, I'm going to join you in retirement on December 31st. So unfortunately for me, that means that I'm more flexible. So I'll do whatever y'all want. And that means that it is our other member of the committee who needs to be the PTA on this issue. What do you think? Oh, man. Sorry. I appreciate y'all. As the only working person going in the next year on here, I need 8 a.m. because I have to go to work after this. So my apologies to all of the staff who has to come in early. I'm up with you. So I would really like for us to keep 8 a.m. And I will continue to do my best on Wednesdays. But gosh, we're already here on Tuesday. That seems like to be a really great day if we could just move these to Tuesdays. But I recognize that that probably won't happen because there are three of us. So I'll just say that my preference is always going to be a day that council already meets on a Tuesday at 8 a.m. So I will throw out. I will throw out the environment is currently Tuesdays, but that's not every week. It's not every week. We just have to be mindful twice a month. Right. You have to be mindful not to overlap that committee. Sure. We meet twice a month because you and I are both on that committee. Yeah, we meet twice a month. There's a whole nother Tuesday in the month. That's always going to be my preference. But I respect that you all have to agree. And of course, that has to agree. I'm amenable to that. If we keep Wednesday, I'll do my best. But I'd still really like eight a.m. So that way I can get out here and go to work. So I will say on Tuesdays, it probably will be very difficult. We can look at that time frame. But there's a lot of other meetings that happen on Tuesday other than just the committee on the environment. There's also an executive staff meeting that staff goes to every Tuesday at nine a.m. at the Civic Center. So happy to look at Tuesday, getting this room and it being able to be televised. And then, as you know, council could start at eleven thirty if we have a work session that starts early, if it's a joint meeting with planning and zoning or the school district. Those meetings always started eleven thirty and the same individuals who would need to prepare for this would have to start preparing for that around nine thirty. So I do think Tuesdays will be logistically an issue. You know, I understand the need for eight a.m. on the Tuesday mornings and if Wednesday mornings at eight a.m. work, I understand that. I do want to make sure that we can have a quorum where the meetings have to be canceled. So, you know, I'm happy to have that discussion with the city secretary's office and the city manager's office. I know we were looking, like I said, to try to move it later in the day, just simply from the fact that it is a logistical situation, especially if there's been a late council meeting that might not be over till midnight or one o'clock to have staff back here at six thirty in the morning to try to get set up for the meeting. So but I do know that you have a schedule that you're trying to work around with your work also. So if you can make a recommendation as a team or a group, a committee as to what you feel like is best, I will tell you that the city manager is interested in moving the meeting to nine a.m. also just so that it is better suited for staff that's involved in it. But obviously we'll take those recommendations back to the city manager's office to see if they have anything additional that they'd like to discuss with us as a team, as a committee and as staff. But happy to move forward with whatever your recommendation is. Well, I'll say that since you missed a few of these meetings, which I don't I think is maybe about three. I actually think you've only been in attendance at two since you've been on the committee. And so with that, I believe you've missed possibly five or six. Oh Lord. We live. Let's move on. So with that being said, you know, I'm just kind of teasing on that part. But with that being said, I'm wondering if we can compromise in that you stay on the committee and we move the time and you let us know when you're going to be able to make it. And we may sacrifice that particular time when we know that you're going to be here. That might be, you know, I don't know, two or three or four or five times that you will be here. You know, what is our stance in regards to members making it to the committee members meetings? Do we have Mr. Lawyer rules regarding uses for City Council members? I mean, we know we got forum stuff that Mayor Pro Tem and I have been making the many meetings. And we've been able to hold the meetings because of the quarrel. And so it hasn't been necessarily a big deal. But if we're talking about moving the time, is he going to be most likely be here or most likely not be able to make it if we move to nine o'clock or if we even stay at eight o'clock? What's your schedule like if you're if you know that you're most likely not going to be here, which if there's nothing wrong with that, because we'll have a quarrel, then I'll go on going on in compromising in allowing us to put it at nine. But if on the times when you know that you're going to be here, then we can compromise and make sure that we hear at eight o'clock for you. That's the way I think. Yeah, and I'm happy to check with the city secretary's office to make sure that the so what I understand if I'm hearing you correctly, and I know Councilmember McGee obviously has a work schedule he's trying to work around so completely understand that if I'm hearing you correctly, move the time to nine a.m. unless Councilmember McGee can confirm he can be here. And what I would just tell you on the confirmation, we could block the room as long as it's available in the city secretary's office allows us to do that. But the publishing and postings and cancellation of this meeting have a weekend at least a week in advance. So this would all be published on Friday. So he would have to be able to confirm Thursday or Friday if he's going to be here for the following Wednesday night, I just want to make sure you're aware of that in case for some reason, you're not available or aware to know that that far in advance. I don't I don't know anything about your work schedule or your business and I want to be respectful of that. The weeks that we have council on Tuesdays, it makes it extremely difficult for me to make the meeting the next day only because I thank God for my job. They have given me tremendous latitude with allowing me to do this. I will not continue to go back to the well because I want to be respectful of the fact that we do have business and I have customer obligations. So if we have a council on a Tuesday, I'm very difficult for me to also come in, go in late on Wednesday, albeit even an hour later because I have to meet my customer obligations. The weeks that we don't have council, I have a little more flexibility because I can sub my Tuesday for Wednesday half a day. That makes sense. So the weeks we don't have council, it makes it easier for me to do it 9am because I missed the Tuesday before that Wednesday meeting. Does that make sense? But if we have the Wednesday right after the Tuesday and hour later, that's probably going to be a no. Does that make sense? Yes it does. It makes sense to me. So what if, I'm sorry, go ahead. I like to give. No, I'm flexible so I'm trying not to insert too much. I'm okay with whatever, I mean you're running the meeting and you're the one with the scheduling conflict so I'm trying not to insert too much because my schedule is going from very tight to very flexible this month. Can I just say, I can't wait to be retired one day. I can't wait to be in this situation. It looks nice from over here. Oh yeah, it is. So would you like for us to evaluate the calendar based on the future council calendar to see when those meetings are? Most of the time they're typically the second and fourth Tuesday. We're currently on the fourth Wednesday of the month to see if we moved and if the room is available for the third Wednesday of the month and then moving to 9 a.m. and we could bring that back at the December meeting and make those decisions at that time for the January meeting. Does our schedule typically need two and four for council? Yes. Let not. Because a couple of them, I know a couple of them are different. Not always consistently. Like this we miss one, December is different. Right, so December we're meeting the fifth and the 12th just simply because of the council. I mean because of Christmas holiday but we could look at that and try to compare to see if there's a happy medium and you can also always skip a monthly meeting if you have to if there is you know in July there's some times that y'all take the time off or the council agenda is a little bit less. So we could look to see if there's a balance that could come from that. That reminds me I will be out the entire and it's germane to this issue because we're meeting quorum with Vicki and I, Council Burt and I. So I will be out the entire month of July. Okay. So there will be no no time in July for any committee or the council where I will be available. So in July we're scheduled to meet two and three and four the third and fourth week council is. So 16th and the 23rd. Interesting. Okay well so if maybe if we met on the 31st. Yeah so yeah I got to go through all that of course. What I would propose is that we have the council or that we have the council calendar through the year we can go in and put those calendars maybe with it that color with a different color in a different shape on the entire calendar and work to make sure it's all about a room availability and then obviously the ability to be live and we can take that and review it to see if we can find a way that we can find a solution. Yes sir that's fine. No you're fine to move to a different time and day that might work more flexible with the council calendar. Does that make sense? I'm good with that. I'm good with that. I think that that's just be a healthy compromise for this young man to you know stay stay on this committee and for us allowing him to do that. So that's what we can do. I suppose if we if there we can reach an accommodation then he can make the decision on whether he wants to stay on the committee or not. Yes I think that that will make sense and then we can also look at the terms to understand when the terms are actually up to and how that impacts the overall yearly calendar too. So that way you have the full picture. The whole picture that's what we need. Okay. Okay well I think I have everything I need for this item. Okay. Ben I don't know if you had anything you were gonna add. You're good. To your question yes I guess three three unexcused absences are I guess considered cause under the charter. Okay and then I'm the chair would have to initiate that. Does that come through the city? I think since it's appointed by the board. Okay so the chair. Okay all right thank you. Okay. Oh I'm sorry. Would you repeat that for Councilor. Oh okay we were talking about that. Under the section under the city code of chapter 2 it's three absences for members. It's considered cause. It can't be considered cause for removal under the charter. And so that was just a response to chair's question. If that is the will of the body I understand. No no not I mean it's the full body. Yeah the full body. So I mean hey. And that was situated long before we got here. Council we already know council's not designed for regular folks. It's not for rich folks and retired folks. So I understand that. I will be happy to adjust if council decides to appoint somebody else. So Councilmember McGee just so you are aware what we discussed and will bring back in December is taking the calendar putting the future council dates on here that are already currently scheduled. We have that for the year looking at the terms to when these modifications might be made based on if there's new council elections and then also trying to find that happy medium to make sure the rooms available and be on the Wednesday where there's not a council meeting looking at possibly 9 o'clock is the start time. So we'll bring that back in December. That would absolutely be amenable. Okay wonderful thank you all for the discussion. All right so we're going to move on to DMC 23-050 staff memorandums. There was a short person up here before. Good morning Trevor Crane director of capital projects. So I'll start off with a couple of project updates and then I'll hand it off. So we'll make this a little bigger. So starting off with Bonnie Bray. So Bonnie Bray phase three that is currently under construction started last month. So the contractor has mobilized and has started work. Project has a 30 month construction schedule so a little while but we're starting work and you starting to move on on that project. Bonnie Bray phase six so we're looking to advertise for bids. Probably going to be either late this month we may hold off advertising to Q1 of next year just because during the holidays we get a lot of design I mean contractors that aren't really paying attention so we want to make sure we get good coverage on that. So we may consider moving that and starting that advertisement beginning of next year. So we're working on right of way and rearrangement agreements with Eagle Ridge which will allow us to get our state letter of authority from TxDOT which allows us to bid. So once that project starts we have an estimated two year construction schedule and we're anticipating that starting like I said late Q1 or early Q2 of next year. Hickory Creek phase three so that project is currently we had to put on hold we're working through an issue with the railroad right now. So we're anticipating that being resolved here in the next couple weeks and the contractor remobilizing back on site in January. We don't foresee that affecting the total schedule too much maybe just a month or two but once we get them back on we'll be ready to rock and roll and start construction on that again. Any questions on Bonnie Bray or Hickory Creek three before I turn it over to my counterparts. I don't have any questions. You don't have any questions? Yes. So that was the alignment on Hickory Creek was for the railroad issue that was well you know what I tell you what I will refresh my memory and then I'll reach out to Becky. Yeah so we're actually the bridge is going over the railroad so the issue we're working through is we're actually decommissioning that crossing as a part of the project in order for us to get on their property to do the work we need to do we need an agreement with the railroad which we're working through right now. So the issue really the big issue was Kansas City Southern got bought out by Canadian right when we were about to get the agreement agreed to and so they had to send it all the way back through their new legal team so. Do that we have the same I know UPR is a pain on the two for one which I think I will say publicly and on the mic is BS but yeah I don't care what we get. So this one's actually a little bit. Are we going to be able to bank this as a closure? We will use that in the future if we can but if it works it's yet to be seen. Do we generally try to bank closures? So normally we try to do them at the same time so that we will say hey we're closing these two we want to get this one or we're closing these three. Normally we don't just close them without having something in mind to to open a new one. So this is a first for me usually we're trying to add one so we're scrambling trying to find other ones we can close. And do the other railroads have the same two for one? Yes two or three. Their goal is really safety and so the safest railroad is one where no one's track no one's crossing it which doesn't necessarily work for other mobility so. I appreciate that thank you. Great thank you. You have any questions? Before you go. Oh come on. The beard looks great. Thank you man I appreciate it. Friday's coming are you getting rid of it? Um I've been thinking about it but I'll probably let it keep going. I like that good man. Yeah. Grow and since I couldn't grow live vicariously. I love it thank you. Morning Chandra senior engineer transportation services. I'm here to present on existing school facilities and traffic issues. We don't have any policy but as a procedure we address safety congestion and queuing issues around schools based on complaints from primarily from citizens via engagement and or social networks or if there is any issues from the schools they approach us then we go and make observations during the morning drop off pick up hours on a fairly typical day for a normal periods and we have discussing with the school staff or school principal or the transportation or school safety officers who are in charge for those schools to find out what issues they have and follow up with our recommendations based on our field observations and if it's major changes then we would sit down with the businesses or churches anything nearby to address what we can do or stagger operations from schools point of view so that's typically our procedure from existing schools and we implement based on input from everybody and for newer schools I'll pass on to Karina for new months like high school and that comes along. Yeah. No question. Sure. So I understand that in it at the end these improvements could be and you give a laundry list. In general I mean is it is the is you know considering reversing traffic where would we be thinking about which schools and things would I mean I'm trying to nail you down to a solution set because the whole point of this item is we figure out a solution to that school's issues. But I'm trying to understand I can't I'm not envisioning anywhere in town where traffic reversals would work and so that's what's giving me pause you know some of the one ways and staggerings and lanes and all that is more standard stuff but I'm not because y'all brought it up I'm trying to think where would you pull the trigger on that tool in any of the schools in town. One of them in my past this is my second round in city of Denton. Three years ago before covid we considered around King's Row and we did not implement because it was not favorable and also it is a complete like a learning experience residents how to drive around. So it's an option in the toolbox but it won't fit for every situations but that's an option. You know I understand it's it's you know I guess what I'm asking is do we envision that is a solution that is if there's a 0.0001 likelihood of pulling screwdriver out of the toolbox then I'm not going to bother talking to not bother but I'm going to not end up spending a lot of time communicating with citizens that this is an option but if we think there's a chance that that will be used then I guarantee you there will be a lot of concerned about where and how that works. So I understand we want to cross that bridge possibly pun intended when we come to it but I guess when we do come to that I'm going to ask for a lot of lead time and a lot of description and I mean way more than you would for other things because I can see the public going crazy on something like that is they don't understand and it will require a lot of education outreach and training if that's the tool. Now I'm not trying to dissuade you from using that tool but like I just can't vision where we would put that in any of the schools that I'm aware of so maybe a lot of education would be involved in that is what I mean. Sure definitely. You know as you're speaking I'm thinking here in regards to working with the schools I don't believe that we would have a difficult time with didn't ISD you know accepting recommendations you know in that regard and the odd thing is is that when you were talking initially I was thinking about the King's Row people and my question to you all is since we've had that big conversation I guess it must have been last year or year before last in regards to the parents picking up in the cars backing out onto 288 now that we've gone past the COVID situation are we still experiencing those kinds of things around in that area or has it kind of slowed down are we back to normal or what I just hadn't heard anything. I just got back into the city. Were you the one that was kind of dealing with that? Yes. Before COVID and right after COVID and after two years hiatus I'm just back. Okay okay well it's good to have you back. Sure thank you. Councilmember Bird I can speak a little bit to that we have currently not heard any additional conversations or communication with that area in great depth there is a lot of conversation that's happening with the development community in that area and Karina can speak maybe to some of that when she's talking about her portion on new facilities but I will tell you that Chandra along with several others worked very hard to try to find new routes and new ways to facilitate with that school with the principal with the bus pickup and the difference between you know the K through two versus the three through five and the time frames associated with that where the facilities made sense as far as where the actual buildings are located for pickup and drop off and so there have been a lot of conversations there were modifications made to some of the signing and signaling in that area and at this time we haven't heard a whole lot of additional conversation and it seems to be working very smoothly at this point so I know that there is obviously a lot of a lot of development that's going to be continuing to happen that area also keep in mind there was a traffic signal that was completed in that area where there were some work done in that area to redo that intersection and so that did help and improve from text dot's perspective on the loop so but of course if there are continued questions or concerns that come up I know transportation services will work through that so yes sir yeah I just comment I have and so what I'll do is I'll chat with you guys offline about some of the feedback that I've received so we don't take time okay thank you thank you sure let me move this down all right Karina Maldonado transportation planner with transportation services so I'll kind of jump back to Chandra's topic and some of the questions that you asked so in relation to that tool in our toolbox for reversing flow to assist a school if that situation were to come up we would probably ask for some sort of traffic study to assist in identifying whether it does work not just for the school in the general area but the traffic distribution around it and so that's a similar situation to the the school hodge elementary off Kings Row that was the situation where the development came in we knew about traffic issues with the elementary and so that was part of their traffic study was to assess it so it wasn't DISD but it was the development that did that so with that I'll jump back into how we handle coordination with DISD and the other universities if they were to come in with a new facility or even an expansion of a facility so that's still an option so we regularly work with those entities DISD and the universities through a pre-development process so I think you're aware through development services of our pre-application meetings so once you know they come in with a new school idea I'll say Ronnie Road Elementary is a good example of the latest one in Denton High School so they'll come in we'll look at their preliminary layout and we'll give them feedback from a traffic perspective we will look at their access points their circulation their stacking especially based on their timing of school pickup and drop off their bus loops as well as employee parking so we do take a more thorough look up front to make sure that we're capturing that I'll say Denton High School's probably the latest example of the development review process and us going through evaluating traffic flows and entry points and so I think maybe some minor hiccups but it's always a learning process so with that through the development process they're also responsible for complying particularly DISD not so much the universities but they're responsible for complying with our Denton Development Code our criteria manual that's applicable at the time of submittals our mobility plan and any other industry standards so that is the process that we follow with new facilities. Do we have a current expectation since we bring up Denton High School and the new Riney Elementary whatever it's going to be called but what is the functional name? Riney Road Elementary is that what we're calling that project? That's the project name we've used through the development process that I don't know that that's necessary to name them after the fact so the Riney Road Elementary Denton High School I get a lot of concerned questions about traffic flow up and down Bonnie Bray I know that's nothing new y'all feel tons of that I looked around and do we have a I know we don't like to get tied to particular stop signs and control access mechanisms until later in the process because it has there's some expectation management you're trying to do with the public where you don't want to tell them something that isn't coming in but I will tell you some of the heartburn from the public is because they don't know what's coming in and they see the fog of war only and it looks like that outer loop map oh sorry and so what I guess what I'm saying is do we have a best practices guide to how we're going to treat North Bonnie Bray you know in an ideal world where you're saying you're telling the public what these are the options that we think we're exploring we're not nailing it down I know we don't like to do that but I think a lot of the heartburn is the public I'm getting sort of feedback that makes me think the public thinks we're doing nothing even though we're not we're doing a lot of things we just haven't nailed it down to where you feel comfortable telling the public so all you know Windsor Reiny Road Bonnie Bray the traffic flow patterns we hear a lot of the options here in this committee the traffic safety committee the former traffic safety committee heard some of that development services and so I guess what I'm asking for is on discussed dent or somewhere that the council can point to could we get what we would like to have aspirational goals for some of these areas so that the public sees oh and I know it's gonna there's the potential to get in trouble quote-unquote with the public because then they'll yell about those aspirational goals but I still think it's that responding to that disquiet is better than responding to the uncertainty of telling them nothing and so is there is I guess that's a long-winded preamble is there something we could get to where we can you know narrow the funnel a little bit and tell them yeah we're the team is on top of this we're not doing nothing and I think that's what I'm trying to ask for especially for Bonnie Bray especially for Kings Row these are these are problem children areas so I I can't speak on the process that you're I think what I'm picking up is is you're asking for more public input during the site design process and feedback to the public okay feedback to the public since this is DISD and our zoning regulations require that they're they're permitted by right and so they would follow our standard development review process and currently the the process is administrative it doesn't go through council at any point shy of changing that development code and requiring more public comment on that type of application there really isn't a mechanism at this time however we could suggest or recommend that DISD has more community meetings to allow that feedback to come in but but the way that our process works now is because they come in by right through an administrative process there's no specific use permit required we've we evaluate their design based on current standards unless there was some sort of criteria manual for DISD that's another new process that would have to be created yeah I think it's too too dense to too too much of the standard process that I'm not trying to we should do that I think this is more is there is there a roadmap kind of concept so that and again I make the analogy to the outer loop fog like that's what the public sees and that that gives them heartburn if you were to say when we started nailing down and again I'm on topic because I'm using this as analogy I felt Ben but as soon as we nailed down Milam and the bridge and the other connection I can't remember out to the east for the outer loop people started to feel more comfortable because there was predicted but they understood where it was headed and so I guess what I'm saying is do we have a thing that the council can refer the public to that says okay in situations where two arterials come together we anticipate we would use these options and rainy road we might use these options we don't know which and you know here's five option but so I know it's going to depend on the final design plan but I'm trying to get the heartburn of the public lowered yep absolutely so Trevor Crane director of capital projects so I would say I would point them to our general standards you know mobility plan first that tells you kind of what that roadways supposed to be arterial collector you know whatever then in our general and our standard specifications and standard details it it tells you what a standard arterial will look like whether it's four lanes two lanes all those types of things so going back to Bonnie break the intent was you know we we we had those conversations with the ISD prior to them building that school the high school so the intent was to have Bonnie Bray completed before that school was was done obviously didn't happen a lot of federal funds were involved in that a lot of hoops to jump through so now we're kind of getting there so the intent is to have Ronnie Road east done before Ronnie Road elementary school and that's that came about with communication with the ISD they put off building that school for another you know an extra year so that we could get all that infrastructure in first I would say so that's always the intent we want to get there before the schools get there so that the infrastructure is there because we know they're going to build a school there after the fact I would point them you know just to discuss didn't once we get to a certain point in those design plans like now on Bonnie Bray six I'm very comfortable telling people hey this is what that's going to look like this is where we're going to have traffic signals this is where we're going to have stop signs and actually I've been fielding calls on that you know in the last month or two so no issues with that if there's questions specific like Bonnie Bray six we have a place on discuss then where you can ask a project manager hey can you tell me if there's going to be a traffic signal at you know Ronnie Road and Bonnie Bray absolutely we can give you that information so that's where I would kind of point there so the intent is always for us to get there prior and have that infrastructure in for the school system but we're happy to share that information and even you know even if we don't have 60% 100% plans we can easily give you know point people to our details and say this is what the intent is this is what we're trying to build kind of like we talked through you know with the bond 2023 bond this is what we'd like to build I don't know until I get out there and start looking at right away and those types of things but this is what our mobility plan tells us to build this is where we're trying to get to and that's something we work through with our transportation planning where they kind of go through that planning piece and saying hey this is what it needs to look like and then we get a hold of it and say well this is what we can do because we got right away and those types of things so it's kind of that back and forth if I can make a recommendation in the age of self-service on the internet that we all enjoy if I can make the recommendation if you get the same question more than twice that that becomes an FAQ right that's the way I handle my desk at UT and if you get this if you get as much things as you can put on a map that they can go okay I feel better now and walk away you may you may avoid questions and get 20% of your workday back again and I know that's the goal yeah absolutely no that's great we'll take that appreciate it and the only thing I would add is Trevor just gave a presentation recently to the Planning and Zoning Commission that talked a lot about what's happening really north of 380 south of 77 kind of in that entire area there's a lot of parts and pieces to I-35 connection to Windsor Windsor Westgate Bonnie Bray Riney Road there's a lot of things happening in that kind of triangular portion of the town and so maybe one of the things to Trevor we can consider is adding that presentation to discuss Denton if bare minimum even just the picture that shows all the roadway projects because we know that they're all connecting because we're working on them every day and we know you can go to each individual discuss Denton page but there actually is a map that's been created that shows all of that information which I think would help share the story no I think that's excellent and I was I know we have the mobility map but it doesn't have everything y'all know so anyway thank you and that's kind of bridging the gap just to be completely honest with you the mobility plan is one document it's a planning level document Trevor's plans are construction level plans but there is that gap of putting together here's what that whole picture looks like with all of these different projects taking that mobility plan from a plan to reality so I think that will help with that conversation I appreciate that thank you absolutely and then the also the other part of that is you know having the city to really push people and also city council members when we speak to our constituents and seems like they want to somebody else to give them you do the research and give them the answer and if we can do a better job and saying hey that's on discussed in but then when you go to discuss Denton the communication and the ease you know the kindergarten level push button in my head frequently asked question you know thing is right there at the front closer to the front so I'll certainly charge the city with marketing discussed didn't at a higher level I think I had mentioned something about putting it on a billboard discussed in dot com you know as you're coming in to the city but that was certainly I would I would definitely want to charge the city we're doing that thank you for bringing that up because I had that in my head somewhere deep down in there that's probably coagulated a little bit in there so to come get back to where we were ma'am please and did you have anything all right so let's go ahead all right there were you done yes that was the end of the topic questions thank you thank you very much I'll stick up here just for shy bit longer so back in September the mobility committee requested some information generally about bicycle etiquette I kind of expanded that to bicycle pedestrian etiquette the topic came up related to the facility north of us here on Parkway the multi-use path with bollards how to navigate that and then generally how to navigate other facilities that also have bollards so without reading through the pretty lengthy description I thought it would be best to assist in providing you with the visual because I know I work better with the visuals if you tell me left and right my brain starts to blink out so what I did here is I provided the facility on screen for you this is I believe this is at Elm and Parkway could be wrong it might be Locust but nonetheless it is on Parkway so this is that multi-use path that was proposed as a pilot project in the city of Denton it is a on-street multi-use path it is intended for shared use for bicycles and pedestrians so it is not intended to be solely a bike lane it is a bidirectional facility for pedestrian cyclists and micro mobility so if someone wants to go on their scooter they could use that facility so that facility runs from Carroll Boulevard to Congress Street as a shared path so navigating I thought would be best obviously we know it is bidirectional you would use the entire facility to walk through or cycle through but at the terminus is where there is potential confusion with how to enter exit the facility so at Carroll Boulevard / Parkway sorry this is on the west end I provided some yellow maybe that was not the best color but a yellow arrow to just show if someone was trying to exit the facility going westbound they would use the crosswalk to then go west to west of Carroll if they were to and same if they were coming from that direction wanting to enter north eastbound they would again use the crosswalk the crosswalk facility so the push signal there they would use that to safely cross Carroll and then coming from the south again using that facility in for cyclists it might be slightly different there is no specific bicycle facility but we do have a state law and a safe passing ordinance that does allow cyclists to take the full lane if someone was bold enough to take the full lane on Carroll they could enter through at the intersection cross preferably at the crosswalk and then enter the facility to go eastbound so making the way towards the eastern terminus of the project this is where congress aligns with the one way into the parking lot for Emily Fowler north of this intersection Oakland becomes a share so it is a shared facility so a cyclist would use that facility northbound and would take the lane vehicles would have to safely pass around but in terms of the facility cyclists congress is also a shared lane with Cheryl markings so if a cyclist was wanting to enter the facility from this direction they would just be on street turn movements and if they're wanting to go northbound and continue their path they would be recommended to do so at that crosswalk before entering the lane so that is the preferred usage at that end we do understand that there may be a need for additional signage or pavement markings to assist with that so we'll have that discussion internally to evaluate it and see where those locations would be needed there are Cheryl markings today and we have to do we do have to comply with signage standards so MUTCD we stumble on that so we'll just we can evaluate that if there continues to be some confusion related to entering and exiting but that would be the path for Parkway Oakland facility and for pedestrians it's the same they would cross at the crosswalk I will point that it might be a bit confusing here because there's a it appears to be a double crossing but this is for the shared path whereas this is an existing sidewalk crossing so pedestrians would use the sidewalk crossing and so before I jump into other facilities do you have questions related to Parkway you say this is a pilot this is a pilot project that is essentially a permanent installation at this point okay so I say pilot because this is an on-street facility if we were to do reconstruction we would evaluate whether it remains a permanent solution it has pavement improvements and I'll leave that to my colleagues on the side if we have if we have that I'm not aware of it but I'm aware that it's a permanent installation at this point I've seen head nods so yes okay have you all had any conversations with business owners I'm thinking about the the garage mechanics across from the development do you mean after installation after installation how are they have you all heard from them in their regard their concern I believe we had a discussed end page and my colleagues had this project beforehand so I'm seeing a hand of two to meetings to me post I'll invite Brett please pretty sure that the city engineer yes for this project we actually had two community meetings we had one in the design stage of the project where we met with the local businesses and with the community nobody attended the meeting but we did a video presentation and posted on the discussed end page and then prior to the construction of this project when the design was completed we had a second community meeting where we had a pretty good attendance turnout by by Denton and local community to see the actual project and get ready for the installation of it and we haven't heard any feedback from the local businesses or any we've heard feedback from residents that have used it some have had some complaints as in construction wasn't finished yet because the signage wasn't done the striping wasn't completed yet but since those have all been completed we haven't heard any negative response yet great councilmember McGee had a question yes thank you chair what does the statement mean we recognize the need for more signage and markings yeah that's a great question so I mentioned earlier that there is the state law and the city has a safe passing ordinance that permits cyclists to use on street lanes for a full lane so there are instances around the city where there is not a a may use the full lane sign because it's not actually acknowledged in the city per the mobility plan that it's a bicycle facility however they still have the the rights as a user to use that facility so I don't have the map of all the signage and locations so that's generally if we need to evaluate that if someone comes up and asks and says well there's no signage here to indicate that we can go back and evaluate that scenario so that's just a recognition that there may be instances where there is insufficient signage now I could be completely wrong and there's signage in every location it's not really my cup of tea so I just want to make that general acknowledgement thank you thank you madam chair um state roads does the city make recommendations for the state to make bicycle lanes like carol I mean you say that sound it kind of you know impossible that carol would be yeah we do have regular coordination with text about their facilities and we do recommend or require based on our mobility plan now with state facilities it's a little bit trickier because there's a capacity requirement for their roadways so if their design specs call for a six lane divided and it's a high speed roadway I don't think our preference would be to have an on-street facility so it's very context-based context-sensitive and that's why our mobility plan does call for the shared use paths within the right obey but off-street to account for the bicycle circulation without safety incidents with that said there's still opportunities in other parts of the city to be reevaluated if we go through the mobility plan process in the future to evaluate that because again it is all context-sensitive so thank you yes so and I think it's just my confusion but so this is an education question the default is that bikes have full access unless they are specifically excluded which would be like highways and controlled access generally yes and I don't have that specific information so I'd have to I could probably pull the language and send it to to y'all but that's close that's close that's close it generally speaks to if it's a two lanes of travel so mingo is a good example they take the full lane and someone who have to safely pass three feet for cars six feet for trucks if it's a two lane they can take the full lane two cyclists can ride to abreast within the lane and so because of that they have the right to be everywhere then you would have to have signage on the roads that exclude them that is that so if there's a road that excludes a bike like a freeway for example there has to be road signage that says you may not enter if you're a pedestrian or a bike or how does that work I don't have the answer to that question but we can certainly research that question and get you an answer and I'll provide context to the question that if if bicycles have the default right to 80 percent of the roads then well well I want signage because that adds clarity and expectation management to the whole mobility planning part of the education would be hey cars bikes have the right to be wherever they want to be except in the excluded circumstances I think that's where I'm going with this is part of the education process is cars you don't you don't own the roads yeah there's certainly an educational element to that and I think once we're more staffed up generally I think that's part of you know the bike ped coordinator position that's open is part of their you know job responsibilities would be outreach and I believe that was the instance as they did a lot of outreach with the community so and now I just mentioned that that's the reason why on the higher speed roadways you see an alternate location through the side path with the roadway cross section so a lot of this has to do with the roadway cross section based on the classification of the roadway which then allows for the safe movement for bicycle or pedestrian traffic and so you know that that is how those roadway networks are designed so that they understand the etiquette of I guess specifically if we're going to use that term as to where they can and cannot be based on the speed of the roadway so just briefly because the question was asked about other facilities with ballards I'll just briefly touch over it most like we've been talking about most of the multi use paths within the city and I give you an example of McKinney and Mayhill Road they are within the right of way but off street so similar to a pedestrian you would use the crosswalks and follow that facility for circulation when there's a separated facility and we do have a few in the city of Denton so Hickory Street is one but also Hinkle those are separated bike lanes typically you have one on each side so it's a single directional travel with the flow of vehicular movement I give the example of the roundabout because roundabouts aren't typically bike ped friendly but you would in this case also there's a separate sort of off ramp for a cyclist to exit around through the crosswalk and an on ramp back onto the bike facility so that's how you would use that facility as well in situations where the bike lane crosses an intersection if there's a striped crossing area that's where they would follow versus the crosswalk so it's dependent on each situation and how it's designed typically their signage the ped crossings is what they would use if there's no specific bicycle signal I don't believe we have those in the city of Denton James can correct me on that so because she can know we don't have any but if our intersections did have that along a bike lane that's what they would use. So I did talk about Hickory Street this is a one way street so slightly different in that there's no two ways of travel but they have a designated single directional flow so they would just remain within that bike lane so not for two way and then sharos we do have several sharos in the city of Denton so those are where usually when right of way restrictions apply there's no area to put a separate bike path or bike lanes sometimes it's an issue of on street parking being an interruption so if residents aren't willing to give up that on street parking to put in a bike lane that's usually what you're seeing the sharo come in so the example here is Old North there are bollards on Old North those I believe are intended to block from parking near the intersections as a safety measure not necessarily a full bike lane pedestrians could use them if there is no sidewalk but they would come into conflict with parked vehicles so they would use are intended to use the sidewalk and I think that's the last visual I have for you and I think I'm passing it back to Chandra I don't know where I'm at the third one on top there you go Chandra senior engineer transportation services so on the more street Woodrow Lane question that was brought on the last mobility meeting I did drive myself to the intersection and made observations and did notice that there is a small mound on Woodrow Lane to the right so that actually will delay the decision making of the vehicle on Morse lane to make a left turn or a right turn lane and that could be a safety issue so we made request for data collection for historical crashes from the last five to ten years and also we're planning to get traffic data counts for 24 hours and also during the peak hours for Morse and Woodrow Lane and we have to wait until the schools are back in session in January because it's holiday holiday season the traffic are usually higher than the normal times so we will follow up back in February with the analysis on the crashes how much delays the vehicle would patiently wait on Morse lane to make a left turn or a right turn lane and we will follow up on that okay any questions on more street okay moving on is an update what we got from this citywide and downtown parking studies the downtown parking study is done by the economic development and they have hired a consultant fair and peers so they are on the data collection stage right now and they have some pop-up events that here and there in the city one was washed out from October but there is one coming up this Saturday from 8 to 1 at the Denton Community Center for input from public on what they feel about availability of parking in the downtown and the visitor experiences so they are documenting right now and they also collected data from drones and vehicles on those specific events where they have the concerts of inquiring whether they have enough parking and all those data to document what needs to be done and we will provide an update when this draft study comes back with the Saturday I can't think what that is farmers market being on the new what is that community market being on county property is that parking lot it's three one seven Mulberry Street yeah Mulberry that's city yes it's a city parking lot yes okay I thought that was a county parking lot Bay of LaSalle is county I can't answer that question I'd have to look into it it's directly across from a county facility which is the Carroll building in the museums my gut tells me that that is a county parking lot and not a city parking lot based on the location they also own all the land next to that so I believe that is a county parking facility but we would have to follow up okay all right thank you and a real high level update on the citywide parking study is the RFP request for proposals for a citywide parking study was closed on November 15th so we should have some consultants who apply for doing the making the study we will update back in spring once we have a draft or a scope when we have it yes is the Oak Street historic district because we've had those prior discussions is that included in the downtown I mean it's obviously include the citywide because the citywide is everything but is also included in downtown or in just in the citywide in terms of the evaluation of the parking needs of the Oak Street area I don't have this big specific right now but I can follow up on the next meeting it's only included in the citywide parking study it's not a part of the downtown the citywide specifically is going to look at university areas historic areas and that will be one of the classifications as far as the downtown all right thank you absolutely that's all I got thank you thank you did you all have any other questions y'all want anything on there okay all righty I think that covers everything on our agenda that does so oh I'm sorry I need to do future items from ability committee meeting coming up I'm sorry about that agenda okay so let's let's see Bonnie Bray Hickory Creek Trevor brought those to you we're asking to remove the planning involved in school zones as Corina made that presentation along with a bike ped etiquette and then the corner of Moore Street and Woodrow so those three were asking to remove the citywide downtown parking study information that's all going to be led through the transportation services team and that information will be brought back at a future meeting the transportation services report will be given in a future staff memorandum and that'll be something that's coming in January mr. dr. butt Farhan butt will be making that presentation the mapping of the bicycle and sidewalk corridors is still currently an ongoing process and so when that's ready we'll bring that forward you heard mr. mr. pollster mentioned today the spurred loop 288 and 380 connectors that's going to be coming in an upcoming ITS report when that's ready for public consumption he will have that information ready and then Ryan Road Trevor will bring back when that's ready as you are very aware we're waiting to move forward on Ryan Road until Hickory Creek is at a future phase so with removing those three leaving the others on there the only other thing we need is any future additional items that you would like to have in the next eight minutes before we run out of time on this meeting yeah the couple questions I got from the public that I'll ask is and we can evaluate here whether it needs to be an item or not people have asked me a lot about the asphalt heave at Bonnie brand oak near the the power station does not need to be a part of this Trevor's already on top of it and we're taking care of it okay awesome and then the other one and again may not be an item so I'm asking is Anderson's J Anderson is asked about the potential for a hot crossing like across from DC BC I understand that there might be distance from intersection issues in that region so I've encouraged them to talk to city staff about that but I don't maybe we could have a just a brief sentence or two unless you can tell me the answer now about what the distances are and what would be involved in a crossing at Anderson's and whether that would be potentially allowable or not and so not currently on the agenda and I guess if you're talking about Anderson's I want to make sure we're looking at the right location you're sitting center okay all of those evaluations go through a process so happy to have staff stay back and explain that process to you and also happy to talk to the Anderson's if they have specific questions I don't think that needs to be a part of this agenda item but those conversations can be had at a later time so we can stay back and have that conversation with you and of course reach out to the Anderson's I don't know that I've heard that request but transportation services might have all right thank you absolutely I'll just say that I spoke with the Anderson's and I have noted to the Anderson's about the signs that they have in front of their building suggesting that their customers park across the street which leans to the idea that their customers will use you know take advantage of parking across the street at the Civic Center and you know my safety concerns you know in that regard because that's a busy curb right there and so they you know gonna have to fit that onus if they're you know if that if the safety you know is heightened right there for me I did notify City Manager's office that I was of concern significant concern about them encouraging their you know their clients to walk back and forth across there like that but they there you know they want to leave it up there because they don't they feel like that that's not that's the only alternative they have since that parking lot is so small so that needs to be you know part of the conversation somewhere else not necessarily right here and apparently it's the same thing with the brewing you know parking crossing over so I'm thinking of pulling all of that into the downtown I know we got a big discussion on upgrading or you know downtown conversation and be pulled into that conversation as well sure I think those are great examples that need to be a part of the downtown conversation the parking study and as far as what's currently happening at the Anderson location I can't speak to but I think that transportation services will definitely look into that I know that's probably a project that went through the planning process that we weren't a part of so happy to discuss with transportation services and I appreciate you bringing those other aspects up as far as there is a current crosswalk at the intersection of McGinney and Belle Avenue for folks to be able to walk to so we'll have to have staff look into that and happy to bring that forward actually honestly I don't believe that's something for the mobility committee I think if you brought this to our attention staff can work through those conversations and I appreciate you bringing that aspect email the city manager group absolutely and I think staff can look at you know the concerns in that area I can get with Scott McDonald and Farhan to discuss yeah just take a look at it from a bird's eye view and a little bit bigger picture because you both had different pieces and parts to that shuttle so we want to make sure we understand the purpose and the need okay well I do understand that we've already had a discussion on the crosswalk on McKinney over across from the courthouse and I know that there was a request to put some kind of big crosswalk thing so people can get over across the way to visit those bills those businesses over there but in I and I know that that's already been talked about but still that Janey Street that's there it's got these two big trees in the middle of the road and they go you know it's just it's unappealing and it looks like it's that road is being neglected because there's no curbs no nothing it's just like you turn the corner and you're back in 1934 no problem so are we all please add that and take a look at that again yes I think that the response this is my second ask in my three years being here the first response was just kind of just it wasn't it wasn't enough attention as far as I'm concerned that was paid for that area and just kind of spruce it up around there sure we're happy to look at I don't know how trees I don't know what but it looks it looks like it's been neglected the entire street as far as I'm concerned it doesn't didn't have any curves so that's the only thing that I have is that Janey Street and you have anything sir that you want to add to the list thank you chair I know I've had these discussions a bunch of times I feel like I need to bring it up every opportunity I get McKinney's dangerous for pedestrians and folks in and wheelchairs and cyclists between Woodrow and 288 I just right in front of Mac Park I just need to keep bringing it up I know it's coming I know it's coming okay you approved that as a part of the CIP I know but I just feel like in the interim can we look at some more lighting in the interim to make it you know to make the road brighter because people are oftentimes trying to reverse McKinney at night I don't know if that's possible but I'm happy to look into yeah anything that we can do to make things safer for folks to cross no no not crossing just walking down they're not crossing they're just walking down the street sure and there's a lot of things that are going into that project including a lot of right away acquisition and putting the sidewalk in where it needs to be located but as a part of the sidewalk project lighting will be one of the considerations to make sure that there's the ability it will take time to evaluate that because we don't have right away in all of those areas to currently construct the project as is I guess I understand that I'm saying does not having right away access prevent a temporary lighting solution to if it does that's okay I would say that it would be a large and expensive endeavor to put temporary lighting in an area that would have to be relocated okay but happy to see if there's anything from a municipal electric standpoint that can be done from a lighting perspective and we'll definitely have that conversation thank y'all I appreciate that absolutely I know it's coming so I'm absolutely patient no problem I appreciate your patience yeah I'm everybody's alright well then thank you very much absolutely you all are doing a great job I just I think this is one of my favorite committees it is it's so interesting also we'll move on to concluding items or any concluding items all right if there's no concluding items then we will call this meeting adjourned at nine fifty nine thank